Military Review

Checker: one blow on the spot

193
History cold weapons Today there is no shortage of authors and materials. And nevertheless, there are also “white spots” in the shadow of blades.


Blade pedigree

For example, such a “childish” question is often asked: “Why does a saber have protection for a hand, but a saber doesn’t?” Not to mention the reasoning about which is better - a saber, saber or a katana samurai sword? In the spirit of "Who is stronger - a lion or a tiger?". The last question is not difficult to answer - it all depends on the art of the owner of a weapon. But here about the lack of a protective guard on the checker, even authoritative experts do not give a definite answer.

The sword is a slashing-piercing weapon with a single-blade blade of slight curvature. It was used mainly for inflicting chopping blows, but with a certain degree of dexterity, it could also prick. Despite the apparent simplicity, difficulties arise even with the definition of immediate relatives checkers. At first glance it may seem obvious that it is descended from a saber. The saber appears in the armament of the steppe warriors of Eurasia around the VII century and was used primarily as a weapon of equestrian combat. But various types of curved swords have been known in our region since antiquity. The same Thracians willingly applied curved swords on a long arm and on foot. In appearance, the saber differs from the saber only in the shape of the blade and the handle - the later saber blades are more curved, their hilt has a crosshair or more powerful protection up to the "cups".



At the same time, the first sabers discovered in our region by archeologists and dating back to the 9th-10th centuries, as a rule, have a small degree of bending and a poorly developed diamond-shaped guard. And this looks somewhat similar to the later checkers. These blades are well known for drawing one of the first Soviet researchers of the armament of ancient Russia Anatoly Kirpichnikov. Over the next century, the sabers have made a significant evolution. As defense armaments become stronger, saber blades gain greater mass and curvature. In the version of the Turkish kylycha, her blade received a thickening- “elman” at the end for more efficient cutting through the armor. Lighter Persian-type sabers had a very large bend, reinforcing their cutting properties.

Actually checkers are found from the XII-XIII centuries, but as an auxiliary weapon, along with a dagger or a knife. Massive drafts begin to be used only from the XVII-XVIII centuries.

Therefore, there is a hypothesis that the checker does not come from the saber. The direct ancestor of drafts is a big knife, like a machete. The very name of the piece, according to one of the versions, goes back to the Circassian "sasho" - "long knife". Indeed, the shape of the blade and the handle of the checker is closer to the knife samples than to the saber. It would be logical to assume that the sword was a certain hybrid between a large knife and a saber.

Special force strike

Homeland checkers is the North Caucasus. It is widely distributed here to the XVI-XVII centuries. By this time, the development of firearms produces a real revolution in military affairs. Flintlock muskets and artillery begin to dominate the battlefield. The armor is gradually falling out of use, and therefore cold weapons also become lighter. In this direction, for example, the West European sword evolves.

The Circassians, like the neighboring “Cherkasy” - Cossacks, also prefer “fire fighting”. The main fighting force of the mountaineers is still the light irregular cavalry. Only now every soldier seeks to arm himself with a gun or rifle, and a pair of pistols. They fire from their horse, dismounting, attacking, and defending. This is where the need for a saber, which used to be ripped by riders with shields, helmets, chain mail and "mirror" armor, gathering in closed ranks, disappears. In place of the sword-saber comes checker, which previously served as an auxiliary weapon.

Checker: one blow on the spot


Now, during a horse attack, having frustrated the ranks of the enemy with fire, he is often simply punched in pursuit. If the enemy could not be overthrown by fire immediately, then the counter cavalry battle also begins to have a slightly different character. Due to the use of firearms, attacking in a dense structure became unprofitable. Caucasians and Cossacks attack in loose or open order, lava. Correspondingly, the horsemen approach each other in parallel courses, rush past each other through the formation and often decide the outcome of the collision with one powerful and precise blow ...

For such a strike it was precisely the checker that was best suited. Due to the fact that her arm is deprived of additional elements of protection, the center of gravity of the weapon is somewhat biased forward. Such balancing allows you to deliver stronger and faster blows. Even if the weight of the checker is lighter than that of the saber.

Since the Caucasian warriors of the 17th century did not leave us their memoirs, let us turn to later sources. In his memoirs, Semyon Budyonny, describing the battlefield after a collision of red cavalrymen with white ones, speaks of corpses mutilated by terrible “drafts blows”. According to the established norms of the literary language, they usually speak of "saber strikes", as well as of saber blades, saber attacks, etc. Even if the dashing cavalryman Semyon Mikhailovich could not pay attention to these subtleties, his literary consultants would certainly have noticed. It seems that Marshal of the Secular Union Budyonny purposely wrote precisely about drafts strokes, which would emphasize their special destructive power. Incidentally, Semyon Budyonny himself possessed a monstrous force by the blow of a blade.

In the story "The Duel", Alexander Kuprin, who himself served as an officer in the Russian imperial army, quotes the words of Lieutenant Bek-Agamalov, who easily cuts an emerald scarecrow with army sword, and then reports how they teach felling in the Caucasus:
"- What's this? Is it a cabin? - He said with mock disdain. - My father, in the Caucasus, was sixty years old, and he chopped horses' neck. In half! It is necessary, my children, to constantly exercise. This is how they do it here: put a wicker in a vice and chop it up, or water will be thrown on top of a thin string and chopped. If there are no splashes, then the blow was right. ” Even Bek-Agamalov says that even though he can chop a ram or even a calf, he will not be able to cut a person from shoulder to hip, as his father easily did. “I'll blow my head to hell, I know that, and so that it’s obliquely ... no,” the lieutenant complains. Here he also explains one of the techniques of possession of the sword - a cutting blow with a thrust upon itself, with the connection of the wrist movement. Subsequently, having caused a scandal in a brothel, the rampaging Bek-Agamalov cuts the table with a sword and smashes everything around him. The real prototype of Bek-Agamalov in Kuprin's story was his fellow lieutenant S. Bek-Buzarov.

There are also legends about the drafts of a special shock power - with mercury inside the blade. Rolling from the base of the blade to the tip, liquid metal allegedly gave an additional kinetic impulse to the impact. According to such a beautiful legend, the wife of a militant Khan, offended by his inattention, put a “mercury” saber on the stove. Then the mercury which has expanded from heating from within has broken off a blade. Khan ordered his wife, together with the spoiled miracle weapon, sewn into a leather bag and thrown into the river.

However, documentary or material evidence of the existence of such "inertial" blades is missing.

Checkers D, Artanyans

There is also an opinion that it is impossible to fence with a sword. Indeed, in the case of the blade on the blade, due to the lack of guard, there is a high probability of injury to the hand. But as we have said, when exchanging the strikes of riders on the oncoming traffic, the one who was the first to reach the enemy with a blade won. However, the sword could still be fenced, including in the fights of foot soldiers.



According to old prints and photographs one can understand how it was possible. In addition to the chain mail, a mitten is worn on the right hand of the Caucasian warrior. It is soft, quilted, and the top is still covered with chain mail. A simple, generally, solution.

The checker quickly gained popularity in the Cossack troops of Russia, and in the 1st half of the 1881th century it was officially adopted there. Regular cavalry and infantry and artillery officers were armed with sabers of various designs. In XNUMX, a saber became a universal type of long blade weapon of the Russian army, only some Life Guards cavalry regiments and officers fleet kept sabers and broadswords. Checkers were worn by both police and gendarmes. True, if the Cossacks used a classic checker, then for dragoons and army officers samples were taken that had a protective bow. The versatility and popularity of the checker was given by simplicity in the manufacture and possession of it.


In the cavalry of the Red Army, only a Cossack saber was used as a military weapon. Though not often, but the checker was used on the battlefields of the Great Patriotic War.

Today it is sometimes said that the Cossack saber is like a Japanese katana sword. In fact, both the balancing and the technique of working with samurai weapons are very different from the Caucasian or Cossack drafts. But there is one general principle of the real combat use of these legendary blades - “on the spot with one blow”.
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  1. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 April 11 2017 15: 09
    +4
    And I heard the story that when the Russians and the Circassians met in horse riding, the saber somehow “cunningly” glided over a more curved saber, giving the Circassian horsemen an advantage. The Cossacks first noticed this, and began to rearm in large numbers.
    I repeat - this is just a story heard. request
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek April 11 2017 16: 28
      +2
      The classic checker should stick with the tip into the handle around the Circassian waist. Here both the indicator of steel and the indicator of the exemplary Circassian figure for us. This flexibility is provided mainly by Damascus steel.
      1. rasteer
        rasteer April 11 2017 19: 07
        +3
        The classic checker should stick with the tip into the handle around the Circassian waist.
        This is unlikely to be one or two legendary samples. But in general, the manufacturing technology of the blade did not differ from the saber, and how do you think it is possible to shift the balance so sharply to the tip on a thin flexible blade?
      2. Second Year Petya
        Second Year Petya April 11 2017 19: 55
        +14
        What kind of fairy tales are you telling here? A blade with such flexibility will absolutely be useless in battle.
        Read less fantasy.
        1. Photon
          Photon April 12 2017 12: 35
          +1
          Oh how! Or maybe you should go to Shaolin? Perhaps with your equipment you will become a mentor there for sword masters.
          1. Sargas
            Sargas 26 March 2018 16: 18
            +3
            And how many wars did the Shaolin people win with their weapons perversions?
            1. Zaurbek
              Zaurbek April 24 2018 08: 20
              0
              Read the history of the Caucasus and you will understand .... and count how long the war lasted and with whom.
      3. Prometey
        Prometey April 12 2017 08: 45
        +6
        Quote: Zaurbek
        This flexibility is provided mainly by Damascus steel.

        Fairy tales began
      4. ISSIDOR
        ISSIDOR April 12 2017 08: 52
        +4
        I saw one Cossack bragging about his patrimonial blade in this way, then a friend told me that in one such demonstration the saber broke into four parts, tears and snot were unmeasured. In fact, such blades were rare.
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek April 24 2018 08: 21
          0
          When I was drunk, the Cossack director chopped a hundred poplam with a saber. Your worker.
      5. GSPDJGneva
        GSPDJGneva April 13 2017 01: 24
        +12
        Quote: Zaurbek
        This flexibility is provided mainly by Damascus steel.

        Yep) laughing For the best drafts, Western European blades were used, which were imported into Cherkessia through the Black Sea ports. Particularly popular were the Genoese Gourdes, the Hungarian Transylvanian Knot and the Hussar.
        And the funniest story is with the Solingen brand of the "wolf", on which the Circassians for some reason discerned the "screaming monkey" and were nicknamed "ters-maimun", respectively.
        Well, then the local fake of the established "brands" began, they sculpted from what was, but the brand should be known)
        1. Berber
          Berber 8 December 2017 14: 06
          +2
          The most correct comment. Damascus does not bend so much. The Kubachin hilt and the Russian blade were placed on the most recent Caucasian checkers.
      6. combat192
        combat192 8 December 2017 13: 49
        0
        Such a checker will represent only souvenir value.
    2. rasteer
      rasteer April 11 2017 19: 04
      +2
      the checker somehow "cunningly" glided over a more curved saber

      It is unlikely that the matter is in the difference in the bends, it could not have existed at all, or even on the contrary the checker could be more curved. Rather, if this story is really true, then the whole thing is in different weights. But here, as they say, fortune-telling on coffee grounds.
    3. ISSIDOR
      ISSIDOR April 12 2017 08: 43
      +7
      The Caucasian checker is much lighter than the Cossack saber of the 18th century, which made it possible to deliver quite powerful hand strokes without a large amplitude of hand movements, which gave an advantage in speed and as a result a special fencing system arose. The Cossacks didn’t just notice it, but they experienced it very specifically.
      1. Gleb-Kiev
        Gleb-Kiev April 12 2017 10: 22
        +6
        Actually, the main weapon of the Cossack at the beginning of the 19th century was a peak in the ranks and a dagger / bootloader in intelligence. And faced with the cramped battle conditions (and we won’t attack in the mountains), the Cossacks were forced to urgently master “medium” weapons, shorter than the peaks but longer than the knife, getting the first samples in battle or just buying from the locals. Which, in turn, bought blades from the Germans and Italians.
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 16 October 2017 12: 48
          +6
          Quote: Gleb-Kiev
          Actually, the main weapon of the Cossack at the beginning of the 19th century was a peak in the ranks and a dagger / bootloader in intelligence.

          storyteller however ... In different Armies there was a different attitude to weapons. So among the Kuban people the main weapon was a saber-saber, a bebut and a dagger, the plastuns had a gun with a pistol, then a saber with a dagger. And the Ural Cossacks had the main gun, then a long peak, and only then a saber. Everything rested on who was the main enemy. and what terrain.

          Regarding the checker itself. The classic checker was created as a purely cavalry weapon and initially in the first third of the blade generally had sharpening and was not intended for delivering strikes - the battle distance in the cavalry was more than in the infantry. Cossack infantry was armed with sabers, not sabers. And horse-drawn Cossacks were far from all armed with sabers. But when they began to arm the Cossacks with state-owned weapons, then they only began to standardize it and introduced drafts for all. They left the shape of the blade and the handle from it, but made the blade sharpening saber. It is only these checkers that you know.
          Regarding the “super news” of this weapon, it is only in one thing, more rapid beginner training in saber combat and greater mobility due to the lack of a guard.
          I say right away, in contrast to the author of the article, I was holding a saber in my hands, just like a saber and a scimitar, as well as other blades and not only remake.
        2. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek April 24 2018 08: 23
          0
          Cossacks in different geographical places and wars were armed in different ways ... But in the end they came to the Circassian model of clothing and weapons.
  2. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I April 11 2017 16: 06
    +19
    I had to read a story about how the checker found its application even after the 40's .... when they helped the Vietnamese organize the border service. at some border (I don’t remember exactly now) the terrain was so “difficult to cross” that there was a problem how to quickly transfer groups of border guards from place to place. Some of our military specialists came up with the idea to order horses. ... sent horses, "ammunition" .... along with checkers. Arriving "escorts" taught the Vietnamese how to do cavalry, including how to own a saber. Border cavalry proved to be very effective in that area, while border guards themselves willingly "used" a saber. Therefore, smugglers and other "enemy elements" were very afraid of these weapons.
  3. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat April 11 2017 17: 01
    +9
    Ah, already gone "forbidden" beauty of knives! Truly "gentlemanly" weapons - when the battle is one on one, eye-to-eye and on the tip of a knife or saber you feel the trembling flesh of the defeated enemy or .... if you are unlucky ...
    1. gorgo
      gorgo April 11 2017 17: 40
      +15
      Romance, yes. But scary ... The invisible bullet is somehow ... bang! and that’s it. Not immediately and you will understand what happened. But to see the cold blade, to realize that he is looking for your flesh ... brrr .... I will imagine the battles of antiquity when the pedestrian ranks approached, and each has a sword or saber ... Horror.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 12 2017 00: 45
        +6
        Yes, it’s scary ... I read the story of a front-line soldier about bayonet battles ... the tension in the fighting was so-oh (!) That there were cases when, according to the front-line soldier, "you only touch the German with a bayonet, and he falls dead ". I think that from the horror experienced by the soldier, the heart could not stand it. This phenomenon is confirmed by ancient "experiments" when, when an offender was executed, they just touched the neck of the condemned with an ax, death immediately ensued.
      2. KaPToC
        KaPToC 17 December 2017 15: 25
        0
        Quote: gorgo
        I will imagine the battles of antiquity when the pedestrian ranks approached, and each one has a sword or saber ... Horror.

        Horror is when art is twenty kilometers bang - and you are not there, and you do not know when it will arrive. What saber or checker? Until the war converges - you can not be afraid.
    2. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan April 12 2017 11: 58
      0
      You need to go to Germany. They still practice dueling to the blood.
  4. Black Colonel
    Black Colonel April 11 2017 17: 25
    +12
    In the novel "Quiet Flows the Don" by Sholokhov, a duel situation is described when Grigory Melekhov skillfully applied his left-handedness - when he met on horseback, he threw his horse sharply right for 50 meters to get to the left of the enemy, threw the saber from his right hand to his left and with a sharp with a sling to the saddle with his left hand, he cut the opponent's neck from behind. Yes, and he possessed a “Baklanov hit” - he could cut a birch of decent thickness in one fell swoop.
    1. ISSIDOR
      ISSIDOR April 12 2017 09: 01
      +5
      Almost all Cossacks owned both hands with a saber, the training system was like that. The "Baklanov strike" can not be completed with any checker; heavier don-type checkers are more suitable.
  5. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 11 2017 17: 48
    +9
    Quote: Zaurbek
    The classic checker should stick with the tip into the handle around the Circassian waist. Here both the indicator of steel and the indicator of the exemplary Circassian figure for us. This flexibility is provided mainly by Damascus steel.

    These are all myths. I can safely say that mostly drafts were made from the city. Being a minor schoolgirl personally sentenced my grandfather's drafts, for which he was mercilessly flogged by his parents.
    1. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev April 11 2017 18: 51
      +2
      Well, I don’t know, I don’t know from any personal experience: a father-in-law has a stump of a checker, with a handle it can be 40 centimeters, a checker is not a remake, but very old, I won’t lie about age, but that’s exactly before the war !!! so if the spark was white and frequent, they sharpened it heavily, but it takes !! I didn’t experiment further, otherwise I'll make a penknife !!!
      As for Damascus steel, I agree with you here, now you read either damask steel or damask !!!
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 April 11 2017 19: 27
        +1
        Do not bother, the steel is frank junk. A cheap mass weapon of a cavalryman, there they did not strain much with steel.
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek April 11 2017 19: 47
          +1
          Do not compare - Shashka is the weapon of the tsarist army, a mass product and shashak is the weaponry, even of fighters of the wild division ...
          1. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok April 18 2018 17: 20
            0
            Quote: Zaurbek
            Do not compare - Shashka is the weapon of the tsarist army, a mass product and shashak is the weaponry, even of fighters of the wild division ...

            laughing good joke good
            1. Zaurbek
              Zaurbek April 24 2018 08: 25
              0
              In the Caucasus there was no army, and the Highlander bought all the weapons and horses ... but it wasn’t customary to go and fight with consumer goods.
        2. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I April 12 2017 00: 53
          +9
          Quote: mar4047083
          A cheap mass weapon of a cavalryman, they didn’t strain much with steel.

          Do not confuse the plug with the bottle ... one thing is the “line stamping” of weapons for the regular army, the other is the “generic” weapon. It is handed down from generation to generation, the weapon for which they gave the “last herd” ....
        3. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 16 October 2017 12: 57
          0
          Quote: mar4047083
          Do not bother, the steel is frank junk. A cheap mass weapon of a cavalryman, there they did not strain much with steel.

          connoisseur however ... For starters, take an interest in what consumer goods Chrysostom produced, then speak. Only there was mass production. But in the Caucasus until the 19th century (except Georgia, but only after training in Zlatoust they were able to produce high-quality weapons) in general, weapons with a blade longer than 40 cm were not released. All drafts and sabers were imported, and local craftsmen were engaged only in decoration.
    2. Curious
      Curious April 11 2017 19: 06
      +3
      By stupidity, you can fall in love with a mare for a gallop, just run to kiss far.
    3. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr April 11 2017 19: 27
      +1
      I read somewhere that in tsarist times, when drafts were made en masse, in production, it was made of rail steel.
      1. ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
        ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH April 11 2017 20: 58
        +3
        Quote: Bad_gr
        it was made of rail steel.

        Spring from carriages and stagecoaches.
        1. rasteer
          rasteer April 11 2017 21: 14
          +3
          Spring from carriages and stagecoaches.
          Custom order is possible. And in large quantities from steel that went into the manufacture of both cold steel and rail. That, in principle, it is clear that, oddly enough, the same demands are made on them, elasticity and hardness.
      2. ISSIDOR
        ISSIDOR April 12 2017 09: 03
        +4
        Steel "weapons 2" analogue of modern 65G.
      3. Shadow of darkness
        Shadow of darkness April 12 2017 10: 32
        +5
        In tsarist times, rails were made of cast iron, not steel! Yes, and under the Soviet regime for a long time they were cast-iron, hence the tales of the piercing ability of some cartridges. hi
        1. rasteer
          rasteer April 12 2017 12: 44
          +9
          In tsarist times, rails were made of cast iron, not steel! And under the Soviet regime for a long time they were cast-iron,
          Yes you, what is the truth? But on July 16, 1874, the Technical Inspectorate Committee of the Russian Railways recommended, and on September 11, 1874, the Minister of Railways approved 7 types of rails — 3 iron and 4 steel, for laying on the track, regardless of the manufacturer. no cast iron. In 1883, 24 types of steel rails were already approved. Cast iron rails are greetings from the beginning of the 19th century. Even if they survived somewhere before the Soviet regime, then on auxiliary routes. And steel was mass produced.
        2. saigon
          saigon 10 June 2017 12: 13
          +3
          I apologize, but I dare to notice the cast iron on the rails is not true.
          The strength of any grade of cast iron is not enough, it is fragile and endures shock loads oh how bad. Such is the science of metal science and everything is simple and clear there. Unlike history, everything is accurate and clear and does not depend on a given historical moment))))
    4. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 19: 35
      +3
      Quote: mar4047083
      These are all myths. I can safely say that mostly checkers were made from

      You name the manufacturer. About one 2 times more drafts were imported into the Republic of Ingushetia from abroad than they were produced in Russia.
      1. Zulu_S
        Zulu_S April 12 2017 01: 37
        +4
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        You name the manufacturer. About one 2 times more drafts were imported into the Republic of Ingushetia from abroad than they were produced in Russia.

        In the Russian Empire, the mass production of knives was established in Zlatoust. But from what foreign countries was it imported 2 times more? In what quantity, in what years?
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 16 October 2017 13: 02
          0
          Quote: Zulu_S
          But from what foreign countries was it imported 2 times more? In what quantity, in what years?

          Do you think he knows? I didn’t come up with such a nuance, and therefore will not say anything ..
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 16 October 2017 13: 44
            +2
            Quote: 4-th Paradise
            Do you think he knows?
            I know do not worry. From Germany, mainly. But look for the production table in RI. And the import table. I can say that for the period from 1871 to 1880 only in Zlatoust made 77 thousand blades. And I somehow stupidly missed the comment of Zulus.
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 17 October 2017 10: 19
              0
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              I know do not worry. From Germany, mainly.

              Duck, name the number of drafts brought from Germany. Not how much was produced in Zlatoust, namely in Germany, and where exactly they were supplied. Knives and broadswords do not interest us, even Solingen’s.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 17 October 2017 12: 06
                +2
                Quote: 4-th Paradise
                namely in Germany, and where exactly they were delivered.

                From memory - 144 thousand in the same period. And they bought their shops and workshops, which were engaged in design such as Biryukov and son. You’ll laugh for a long time, but like the Ukrainians it turned out that they knocked out Armata, but didn’t take a picture, because the charge went down. For a whole month I collected data, compared them, climbed weapons and historical websites, wrote an article, and on New Year's Day I poured wine on my laptop while I was drunk. Khan. And all the data is there, along with the table. Only the notebook drafts remained. And to search all over again is long and dreary. In general, I spat on this matter. German blades were cheaper, made them better, and the result was a ceremonial weapon. But until 1869, for example, KKV placed orders with Tanner. This type could not cope, (put 11045 checkers in the KKV) and, in turn, placed orders in Solingen, in Luneshloss. Since the 69th year they began to order in Zlatoust.
                1. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 27 October 2017 12: 13
                  0
                  Quote: Mordvin 3
                  And they bought their shops and workshops, which were engaged in design such as Biryukov and son.

                  1. what design? what design? It was not necessary to have permission for edged weapons, from no word, and even more so to the Cossacks.
                  Quote: Mordvin 3
                  But until 1869, for example, KKV placed orders with Tanner. This type could not cope, (put 11045 checkers in the KKV) and, in turn, placed orders in Solingen, in Luneshloss. Since the 69th year they began to order in Zlatoust.

                  1. These were not checkers, but sabers with a handle from the checker.
                  2. In Solingham of the 19th century there was mass production, the very thing that you say leads to a decrease in product quality ...
                  3. What were the German pseudo-checkers better? facts to the studio.
                  4. 11 thousand blades for KKV was a drop in the ocean, this is not the Yaitsk Cossacks. So in 1860 there were at least 60 thousand people. In 1914, the first line was 5 cav. divisions, plastun brigade, artillery and sappers. The first line is those who are in the 5-year service in peacetime, from the age of 21 years. The second line, from 21 to 45 years, is to mobilize in case of war. The third line is from 16 to 60 years. From the age of 14, each Cossack received at least a saber and carbine from the army (treasury).
                  In World War I, the Kuban army put up 41 horse regiments (including 2 regiments of highlanders), 1 plastun regiment, 2 horse divisions, 27 plastun battalions, 50 special equestrian hundreds, 9 horse batteries and 1 spare horse artillery battery - about 89 people in total . and 000 thousand combat horses.
                  and where are your 11 thousand blades? But the weapons were not handed over to warehouses at the age of 60, but stored at home ...
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 14 November 2017 05: 55
                    +4
                    Quote: 4-th Paradise
                    what design? what design?

                    Assembly, in other words. Blades were imported.
                    Quote: 4-th Paradise
                    In Solingham of the 19 century, there was mass production, the very thing that you say leads to a decrease in product quality ...
                    3. What were the German pseudo-checkers better? facts to the studio.

                    Point me with your finger, where I wrote that the German blades were better. On the contrary. Zlatoust on tests showed the best results. Polish were not recommended at all.
                    1. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok April 18 2018 17: 29
                      0
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Point me with your finger, where I wrote that the German blades were better.

                      I apologize for confusing the statement mar4047083, but I did not see the numbers confirming that 2/3 of the drafts were German. But I brought in the number of Cossacks from the KKV who fought in the First World War (89 thousand), and after all I was still mobilized but had weapons in my hands, there were at least 2 times more, and there was also the Don Cossacks, Terek, Ural , Yaik, Semirechensk, Amur, etc. . And checkers for them were supplied centrally for at least 2 centuries. Your 11 thousand German pseudo-checkers do not dance.
    5. Couchexpert
      Couchexpert April 11 2017 19: 47
      +4
      Anyway, 95% of everything that comes out from under human hands / paws / claws is exactly g (if you are offended by something "subtle feelings", you can replace low-quality / mass / budget, etc. with synonyms). And weapons are no exception. To understand this, it is enough to recall at least the legendary quality of bayonet-knives for AK. Moreover, we are talking about times when cold steel, although technologically advanced, was gradually losing practical value (although it continued to be in production). Certain samples can, of course, be made very good (and therefore expensive) if desired, but the people who own them, as a rule, were not particularly torn to hand-to-hand combat (therefore, we actually have well-preserved museum exhibits). This is equally true for steamed katanas, for medieval swords, for drafts. What is shown in the illustration is clearly not a cheap thing, while an ordinary checker just replaced the saber due to elementary manufacturability: the handle was made stupidly through the installation of wooden plates from the sides for 2 rivets without any guards / arches / cups / shields and etc. The industrial revolution stood in the yard, the forges were replaced by metallurgical plants, and the number of armies was constantly growing. Who, under such conditions, will make all these bells and whistles on cast handles? Replacing a saber with a saber is like replacing a PPSh with a PPS, no more.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 20: 11
        +12
        Quote: CouchExpert
        the handle was made bluntly through the installation of wooden linings on the sides of the 2 rivets without any guards / arms / cups / shields, etc.

        First, you will understand the difference between the through installation and the invoice, and then click on the buttons.
        1. ISSIDOR
          ISSIDOR April 12 2017 09: 13
          0
          I totally agree.
      2. Des10
        Des10 April 11 2017 20: 30
        +3
        without going into subtleties - the grandfather had two checkers over the bed --- one like a butcher’s knife - a rough simple handle and --- premium, smooth ...
  6. Kenneth
    Kenneth April 11 2017 18: 30
    +4
    With the departure of truly professional armies with fighters who were taught fencing from childhood and the dominance of the firearm, the guards also left. You cannot fencing with a saber. Who does not believe can try with a bokken. You can portray.
    1. rasteer
      rasteer April 11 2017 19: 42
      +4
      With the departure of truly professional armies with fighters who were taught fencing from childhood
      Well, the Circassians were, as it is called, "natural cavalry," that is, they studied military craft from childhood.
      You cannot fencing with a saber.
      It depends on what if the army is so difficult with its weight of about a kilogram. And the Circassian classic weighing 300-400g is quite, although this is no longer a saber-type fencing, it is rather closer to the knife fencing.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 16 October 2017 14: 38
        0
        Quote: rasteer
        A Circassian classic weighing 300-400g

        it wasn’t like that, because the Circassians didn’t make drafts, there were no specialists, they brought them from Asia, Turkey and Russia. Their native "checkers" were called Bebut and had a blade length of not more than 40 cm, the handle was made under 2 fingers, I wonder how they did not break them. Not one bebut could not normally hold in his hand.

        Quote: Kenneth
        You cannot fencing with a saber
        Have you ever tried at least something to try fencing? Judging by your statements, no. Fencing with a checker is easier than a saber, but harder than a sword. Heavier, it doesn’t mean one hundred is impossible.
        Quote: rasteer
        It depends on what if the army is so difficult with its weight about a kilogram

        I don’t know how “army”, but the Zlatoust Cossack sword weighs from 600 to 700 g, depending on the modification.
        1. rasteer
          rasteer 16 October 2017 20: 26
          0
          it wasn’t like that, because the Circassians didn’t make drafts,
          However, the Circassians did not make drafts, but drafts as a type of weapon came from them.wink I can agree that the blade blanks were not made in the mountains, but the fact that they modified them for their own needs is a fact.
          Their native "checkers" were called Bebut.
          Well, you really don’t drive a dagger with a thick double-edged blade and a checker in its Caucasian sense (a large knife with a balance shifted to the tip), all the same, different things.
          and had a blade length of not more than 40cm
          I'm sorry, but to determine the checker, the length is not of paramount importance, because it is a one-handed blade weapon with one-sided sharpening, of weak curvature, with a balance shifted to the tip. The length varied quite widely from 80cm to 35-40cm.
          Fencing with a checker is easier than a saber, but harder than a sword.
          It all depends on the style of a person accustomed to a saber manner is difficult. Because working with a checker is more likely not fencing, but cutting ... because of a different balance.
          I don’t know how “army”, but the Zlatoust Cossack saber weighs from 600 to 700g
          Actually, the data about about one kg was taken from Fedorov’s book, which he wrote during the mass production of drafts in Zlatoust, and it is there that he says that the production could not withstand the weight standards of 600 g to almost 1 kg.
          1. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok 17 October 2017 11: 01
            0
            Quote: rasteer
            Actually, the data about about one kg is taken from Fedorov’s book,

            they’ll write in books ... You’ll think about how from a metal billet weighing 600 g (I don’t know how much the billet weighed, but no more.) you get a piece weighing 1 kg., where the handle is 400 gr. will it weigh?
            Quote: rasteer
            Fencing with a checker is easier than a saber, but harder than a sword.
            It all depends on the style of a person accustomed to a saber manner is difficult. Because working with a checker is more likely not fencing, but cutting ... because of a different balance.

            you don’t seem to know what fencing is ... Believe me, fencing is not only about sabers, but also about swords, swords and horror, even rifles with a bayonet attached. Yes, as early as 101 years ago, the army held competitions precisely in fencing with rifles with a bayonet, and not in a bayonet battle.
            And drafts fencing is much easier to learn than sabers. Plus, I will surprise you that different types of sabers had different blade bends. Look at the pictures canine,] the weight has reached 1,2 kg.
            Mamluk saber, well, very curve laughing
            Hungarian (upper weighs more than a kilogram)
            1. rasteer
              rasteer April 18 2018 19: 15
              0
              in books and not write that ...
              And on the fence, then how to paint wassat
              You’ll think about how from a metal blank weighing 600 g (I don’t know how much the blank weighed, but no more.)
              Awesome logic, just wildly plus, I don’t know how much weighed, but 600g.laughing
              you don't seem to know what fencing is ...
              Yes, and even on knives, sticks and katanas, only the technique of working with all these devices differs like a break from a waltz wassat And therefore, one is called fencing, the other is felling, and the third is stabbing. Adieu amigo hi
          2. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok 17 October 2017 11: 15
            0
            Quote: rasteer
            Well, you really don’t drive a dagger with a thick double-edged blade and a checker in its Caucasian sense (a large knife with a balance shifted to the tip), all the same, different things.

            a dagger is a kind of knife.
            Quote: rasteer
            It’s a paradox, Circassians did not make drafts, but drafts as a type of weapon came from them. Wink I can agree that the blade blanks were not made in the mountains, but the fact that they modified them for their own needs was a fact.

            1 Do not read bedtime stories. The fact is that in Russia drafts were not used for one reason - the classic drafts is a purely cavalry weapon and at the same time less universal, unlike a saber.
            2. all remodeling consisted of applying the coinage, no one reforged the blades themselves.
            1. rasteer
              rasteer April 18 2018 19: 20
              0
              a dagger is a kind of knife.
              A spear ax, only the blade turned in the wrong direction laughing You are so hot that it seems like you have to go after the catch drinks
              do not read bedtime stories.
              And you do not compose them hi And then I see you already began to believe in them lol
              nobody reforged the blades themselves.
              Even I agree and why change the characteristics of the blade without forging ... it’s called metalwork laughing Don’t worry, you did it a hundred times laughing
          3. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok 27 October 2017 12: 24
            0
            Quote: rasteer
            However, the Circassians did not make drafts, but drafts as a type of weapon came from them. Wink

            not a type of weapon, but the name from the checks, the checker has been known for centuries since the 15th, if not earlier, and for a very long time was popular with the Hungarians. The Poles had something similar, but they chose a different path - a sword with a blade length of up to one and a half meters, of which half a meter, or even more without sharpening, a square or rectangle in cross section. I don’t remember what it’s called, but the heavy Polish cavalry had it as a second weapon, fumbling around the saddle.
            1. rasteer
              rasteer 29 October 2017 08: 31
              +1
              The Poles had something similar, but they chose a different path - a sword with a blade length of up to one and a half meters,
              As I understand it, you are talking about the finisher, but it is strange to compare the piercing blade of the rapier type used as a replacement for the pique when it is lost with a chopping blade weapon like a checker. As a chopping weapon for close combat, the saber “carabel” was used, but it was heavy, which, however, is normal for times when armor was widespread. Moreover, her balance was saber, that is, shifted to the handle.
              1. 4thParasinok
                4thParasinok April 18 2018 17: 41
                0
                Quote: rasteer
                As I understand it, you are talking about the finisher, but it is strange to compare the piercing blade of the rapier type used as a replacement for the pique when it is lost with a chopping blade weapon like a checker.

                Duck, I say that they went the other way ...
                Quote: rasteer
                As a chopping weapon for close combat, the saber "carabel" was used
                And the finisher and the carabel is a melee weapon, the only difference is that the first piercing was used against heavy armor, while the chopping saber was used against light armor or in their absence. Carabel is only one of the types of sabers that existed in Poland, and they were made in Hungary. The Poles differed in that they usually made only hilt, and even then it was far from always, as in the case of the carabel.
    2. ISSIDOR
      ISSIDOR April 12 2017 09: 17
      +1
      Still as much as possible, after you get a reflex on the fingers several times at a subconscious level, it doesn’t work to substitute your hand.
  7. andrewkor
    andrewkor April 11 2017 18: 37
    +1
    My son-in-law is a Cossack from the Tyumen region on a carpet in the hall a checker hanging from a spring is beautiful, but heavy, damn it !!!
    1. mar4047083
      mar4047083 April 11 2017 19: 31
      +2
      Melee weapons from springs are not given in principle, this is a remake. The checker is not very heavy. Suddenly tomorrow is war, and your hand is tired.
      1. rasteer
        rasteer April 11 2017 19: 37
        0
        The checker is not very heavy.
        Well, up to one and a half kilograms is if you take the army, with its balance it may seem that all two or two and a half. Although of course, if the checker is really from the spring, then FIG knows what they’ve done there. lol
        1. ISSIDOR
          ISSIDOR April 12 2017 09: 19
          0
          A kilogram, if not a decorative dressing room with improper balancing.
          1. rasteer
            rasteer April 12 2017 12: 48
            +2
            A kilogram, if not a decorative dressing room with improper balancing.

            A kilogram is a registered mass checker. at least 1881 During development, it weighed 600g but in the process of mass production it grew to 1kg and still remained in that weight. Custom-made weapons could easily fit into 600g. but for other money. wink
        2. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 17 October 2017 11: 19
          0
          Quote: rasteer
          Well, up to one and a half kilograms is if you take the army

          first hold it in your hands before you carry nonsense. special sofa. I held both the USSR and the Zlatoust and the 17th century in my hands, but what were you talking to?
          1. rasteer
            rasteer April 18 2018 18: 40
            0
            first hold it in your hands before you carry nonsense. special sofa.
            Rude dear dear laughing Well did you keep that? You can hold on to the fence, but there’s not much use for it. lol What did you want to say? that the checkers were lighter, heavier, or maybe two-handed?
      2. PPD
        PPD April 11 2017 21: 31
        0
        Of these, they also made. There were problems with the quality of the metal.
        The most suitable is just from the springs. Although of course not only.
        And it breaks just because of forging. The material suffers, suffers blows, especially the blade into the blade, and then says, let’s go ...
        The result is 2 halves.
    2. Mooh
      Mooh April 11 2017 19: 34
      +3
      By the way, yes. The author never mentioned the inhuman weight of a checker in comparison with the same katana or saber. Instead, telling the legend of mercury inside the blade. So, about mercury, these are fairy tales, and the huge depth of penetration of the blade into the body is the result of the very large weight of the cavalry checkers. Accordingly, no one was engaged in fencing on drafts, because it is very difficult to control such a fool.
      1. rasteer
        rasteer April 11 2017 19: 45
        +3
        did not mention the inhuman weight of the checker compared to the same katana
        And what is its inhuman weight? 1kg maximum one and a half in army samples. It’s unlikely that she’ll be able to chop it as an army until 500g in general, but good specimens were famous for their sharpening no worse than Japanese wink
        1. Kenneth
          Kenneth April 11 2017 19: 57
          0
          And who told you about a good sharpening of a katana. Even most museums do not look very good. And during the war they were generally stamped.
          1. rasteer
            rasteer April 11 2017 20: 12
            +1
            And who told you about a good sharpening of a katana.
            Well, firstly, where did you find the word katana from me? Secondly, I do not consider factory mass consumer goods and even the military period. Many museum exhibits do not look very agree, but these island perfectionists have preserved the technology of such sharpening, as they like to call it "razor", that's what I’m talking about.
        2. Mooh
          Mooh April 12 2017 01: 48
          +2
          I did not weigh, but it so happened that at the same time I held in my hands several authentic samples of saber and katan drafts. Katana is easier at times. Saber easier tangibly. It is difficult to hold a checker without experience and training on an outstretched arm, not to mention chopping it, much less fencing. Well, there is no way to get 500 grams, except in the souvenir version ;-)
          1. rasteer
            rasteer April 12 2017 08: 24
            +1
            The classic Circassian short 70cm is all long and the blade is thin flexible, it’s not quite a checker in the sense that it is perceived now, But the drill checker and its counterparts weighed 1kg, plus the center of mass shifted forward, that’s what makes you feel like it’s pulling you, not you control her.
            1. Mooh
              Mooh April 12 2017 12: 21
              +2
              1kg is about the weight of a loaded pistol. I calmly hold it with one outstretched hand. When holding the checkers, it was more like trying to take the AK with one hand and try to aim somewhere.
              1. rasteer
                rasteer April 12 2017 12: 50
                +1
                Well, I don’t know you got such a means. I did not notice this.
          2. ISSIDOR
            ISSIDOR April 13 2017 09: 23
            +2
            Here everyone has their own experience. Holding in his hands at least a hundred checkers, the lightest ancient Cherkessky mid-18th century weight 400g.
          3. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok April 18 2018 17: 55
            +1
            Quote: MooH
            I did not weigh, but it so happened that at the same time I held in my hands several authentic samples of saber and katan drafts. Katana is easier at times. Saber easier tangibly. It is difficult to hold a checker without experience and training on an outstretched arm, not to mention chopping it, much less fencing. Well, there is no way to get 500 grams, except in the souvenir version ;-)

            1. Why did you get what you were holding in your hands the classic pre-revolutionary checker and not a remake of the person who saw the checkers only in the pictures ??
            2. What kind of katana and what year did you hold the blade forging in your hand? Classical katana (such as it appeared initially) has a blade with a length of 1200 to 1500 mm and a weight of up to 2,5 kg. The 18th-century katana has either 5 or 6 varieties with a blade length from 300 to 1200 mm ... Now for "amateurs" they often sell katanas made of duralumin or silumin and anodized to steel. Duck answer again, what kind of katana did you hold in your hands?
      2. ISSIDOR
        ISSIDOR April 12 2017 09: 27
        +2
        Checkers are very different in weight, it all depended on the fighter’s preference, as he preferred to act in battle, a heavy checker for single but powerful hits on the opposite side if on horseback, a light checker was more suitable for close cutting when the horse cannot be dispersed or for foot combat.
    3. your1970
      your1970 April 11 2017 21: 01
      0
      springs beautiful, but heavy, damn it !!!- in fact, the checker was one of the easiest, it is not chopped like a sword, it is chopped with a pull, chopping with a cutting blow, a lot of weight is even contraindicated to it, the brush will quickly get tired
      Z.Y. Che and not from the rails then ???? !!!
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 12 2017 00: 59
        +1
        "Rail" is another "class" of weapons!
  8. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 11 2017 19: 45
    +1
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: mar4047083
    These are all myths. I can safely say that mostly checkers were made from

    You name the manufacturer. About one 2 times more drafts were imported into the Republic of Ingushetia from abroad than they were produced in Russia.

    Yes, how do I know who produced the drafts for the officers of the Red Army in 1941, maybe they were armed with the reserves of the tsar's father. Ask this question to professional historians. Maybe they will answer who produced it, from which it was produced (obviously not in China, and not from springs). I told you how a six-year-old child tried to chop down an orchard and broke a military weapon without really straining.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 20: 27
      +4
      Quote: mar4047083
      Yes, how do I know who made drafts for the officers of the Red Army in the 1941 year

      Produced Zlatoust and car repair plant in Ordzhonikidze. Do you remember the stigma? Since the 32 year, quality has deteriorated.
  9. Curious
    Curious April 11 2017 20: 04
    +22
    Auto RU. of course thanks, but the promise to erase white spots made at the beginning, he. obviously set aside for later.
    I will allow myself to somewhat supplement the article with some purely technical details.
    To begin with, the saber is a chopping weapon. Checker - chopping and piercing.
    One of the main differences between checkers and sabers has always been a sheath made of natural wood, always covered with leather with a metal ring (one, less often - two). Unlike checkers, the saber was usually nested in steel sheath. Another important point - in the case of a saber, the rings are located on the concave side of the sheath, with the saber - vice versa. The saber was taken to be worn on a waist belt, and the saber on the shoulder. Another important difference is the degree of bend of the weapon blade. The blade of the checker is less curved than the saber. A saber, unlike a checker, has a hilt with a guard, and the centers of gravity of the checker and saber are located differently. And finally, the last - the checker is shorter than the saber. The maximum length of the checker is 88 centimeters, the saber is 110. The difference is obvious.
    In the XNUMXth century, the saber was adopted by the Russian army as a statutory type of cold steel in almost all cavalry units. And an important reason for this was the ease of use of checkers in comparison with other types of knives. the same saber. A checker is an offensive chopping weapon without the use of defensive tactics and sophisticated techniques of professional fencing. That is, it allows you to quickly prepare a large number of untrained recruits. Of course. you can try with a checker and fencing, but this is even dangerous. Suddenly, jumping, jumping onto a mountain trail, getting a blade of a running away enemy with a blade is easy. But cross the blades, take protection, perform tricky volts and floss ... Here you need a weapon, and in a different way balanced and not at all arranged. Even a saber is better for this than drafts.
    It is no accident that the famous edged weapons fan General Dragomirov wrote: “Fencing is not widespread at all, but every man knows how to chop, and it’s good to chop, except for factory and more or less sufficient townspeople.” This is confirmed by military regulations.
    "The charter of the Cossack service" of 1889. It contains the same number of chapters and pages on how to use checkers in battle and ... fireworks. They wrote about the latter even in more detail. Of all the actions with a checker there are presented: horizontal cutting, vertical cutting and a slight injection to the left (there simply can not be reached with a chopping blow sitting on a horse). In the pedestrian formation, it was supposed to forget about the saber and act as a registered Caucasian dagger. In other cases, the main weapon of the Cossack is a carbine and a peak.
    "Combat charter of the cavalry of the Red Army" 1938. It has much more walking action. The dagger disappeared - it was simply withdrawn from service. But there was an extensive section of fencing. There was a stand, classic defense and other attributes of a developed system. True, in this case, in the hand of the red cavalryman is not a checker, but an espadron - a specialized fencing saber, developed by the Englishman Hutton.
    As for the checkers, in the Red Army cavalry regiment, the set of techniques is very limited - three hits (to the right, down to the right and down to the left) and four injections (half-turn to the right, half-turn to the left, down to the right and down to the left).
    As for the detailed description of the pieces of drafts that were in service with the Russian army. then the link is below.
    http://www.ckwkazak-svao.ru/cossacks-tradition/11
    3-shashka.html.
    1. mar4047083
      mar4047083 April 11 2017 20: 23
      +1
      Dear Mordvin 3, I hope you are satisfied with this professional answer. It turns out that the Red Army charter did not provide for tree felling. It’s not my fault, they didn’t teach me the charter then. Contact this person in person, and maybe he will tell you the chemical composition of steel.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 21: 14
        +4
        Quote: mar4047083
        Dear Mordvin 3, I hope you are satisfied with this professional answer.

        Why? The same:
        Quote: mar4047083
        "Charter of the Cossack Service" 1889 of the year

        does not reflect the fact that the checker is needed not only for striking, but also for reflection, which makes clear the rules of the Armory Division of the Artillery Committee on sharpening checkers. In the middle of the length of the blade, the sharpening angle - 40 *, gradually decreases towards the war end, where it is 30 * (warhead of the checker), the angle increases towards the hilt and sharpening stops at a distance of 4 inches from the hilt (strong part).
        P.S. Please click on "answer" (if you answer, of course), otherwise the market will not fry.
        1. mar4047083
          mar4047083 April 11 2017 21: 35
          0
          I did not serve in the cavalry, so I can not explain anything about the stabbing blows. I have not tried it, I won’t lie. And he did not study the charter of the Cossack service. But to be honest, I don’t quite understand why such a “device” is needed as a checker in 1941.
          1. F.NN
            F.NN April 11 2017 21: 41
            +2
            Quote: mar4047083
            But to be honest, I don’t quite understand why such a “device” is needed as a checker in 1941.

            For show-offs. It’s like a knife on the straps of sailors, they call him a dagger. And they are very proud of him, although from the outside they look very awkward.
            1. mar4047083
              mar4047083 April 11 2017 21: 54
              0
              Perhaps, but probably this x-nu was inscribed on the military ID as a personal weapon. How did she get into the house.
            2. bistrov.
              bistrov. April 12 2017 07: 12
              +2
              Quote: F.NN
              For show-offs. It’s like a knife on the straps of sailors, they call it a dagger

              Today's dagger is a smart weapon. By the way, it is put not only to the "sailors", but also to all ground officers.
              1. F.NN
                F.NN April 12 2017 10: 44
                0
                Quote: bistrov.
                Today’s dagger is a smart weapon.

                So they need to “arm” special CIVIL theater groups. But the army has no time to deal with parades, it has other goals and objectives.
                Quote: bistrov.
                By the way, it is put not only to "sailors", but also to all ground officers.

                Latinos nervously smoke on the sidelines. Envy.
            3. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2017 08: 39
              +2
              Quote: F.NN
              And they are very proud of him, although from the outside they look very awkward.

              This is you envy. Gorgeous looks from the side.
              1. F.NN
                F.NN April 12 2017 10: 46
                +2
                Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                This is you envy. Gorgeous looks from the side.

                Yes, back in the years of my military service, I noticed that the “military mods”, they are somehow not the same as a look at this topic of everyone else, i.e. civilians. What is the reason for this, I did not understand. But the fact is the place to be.
                Imagine myself in a suit and with a knife on the straps. It’s even somehow not funny.
                1. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2017 14: 42
                  +2
                  Quote: F.NN
                  Imagine myself in a suit and with a knife on the straps. It’s even somehow not funny.

                  Exactly, this is not funny from the word at all. Because it's gorgeous. Although, of course, much depends on the figure and face of the face. And from how the form is fitted. And yes, the dagger is not just a “knife on the straps”.
                  1. F.NN
                    F.NN April 12 2017 21: 41
                    0
                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    Exactly, this is not funny from the word at all. Because it's gorgeous.

                    Is chic going with a knife on straps? Although, about the strange "military fashion" I wrote earlier.
                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    And yes, the dagger is not just a “knife on the straps”.

                    And what? Folding grenade launcher on a belt?
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 21: 56
            +3
            Quote: mar4047083
            For show-offs. It’s like a knife on the straps of sailors, they call him a dagger.

            Well, like that. By the way, if there were no rings under the bayonet on the sheath, then your grandfather was clearly a general. However, I am better versed in the drafts of the RI period, so I'm not sure. sad
            1. mar4047083
              mar4047083 April 11 2017 22: 08
              +1
              Yes, he was not a general. He was a captain (in the sense that after starling). The truth was demobilized in the 43rd. Maybe then it was still necessary to store this x-nude, like a gun. What can you say about this? Maybe then in the USSR it was like in Israel now? In fact, it could be strange to give something more substantial with the right of eternal storage by descendants.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 22: 23
                +3
                Quote: mar4047083
                Maybe then it was still necessary to store this x-nude, like a gun. What can you say about this?

                I did not quite understand the question. Premium weapons after the death of the owner, in general, it was necessary to surrender. Where’s the saber?
                1. mar4047083
                  mar4047083 April 11 2017 22: 42
                  0
                  Broke, I her. He chopped down trees (well, not people who were chopped) and broke it during the owner’s lifetime. That is not the question. As a weapon at that time could get into the house. Well, the checkers did not carry it until they were 43 years old.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 23: 02
                    +5
                    Quote: mar4047083
                    Well, the checkers did not carry the same until the 43 year.

                    Why not dragged? Very much dragged. Production of drafts of the Red Army arr. 1927 Mr. stopped like in the 46.
                    Quote: mar4047083
                    As a weapon at that time could get into the house.

                    So it is necessary to ask you. Either award, or communized. wink
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 April 12 2017 01: 50
                      +1
                      Quote: mar4047083
                      As a weapon at that time could get into the house. Well, the checkers did not carry it until they were 43 years old.

                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Why not dragged? Very much dragged.





              2. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2017 08: 42
                +1
                Quote: mar4047083
                In fact, it could be strange to give something more substantial with the right of eternal storage by descendants.

                Anchor?
          3. svp67
            svp67 April 11 2017 22: 45
            +5
            Quote: mar4047083
            But to be honest, I don’t quite understand why such a “device” is needed as a checker in 1941.

            And you ask the Germans about this, why is it to them in the "war of motors"
            And they will answer you that this kind of troops showed GREAT efficiency in raids and protecting the rear, and cold steel greatly contributed to this ...
          4. bistrov.
            bistrov. April 12 2017 07: 08
            +2
            Quote: mar4047083
            Why do you need such a "device" as a checker in 1941.

            Already in 1944, when the police switched to a new uniform with epaulettes, the line police (which still works on the railway) received a checker as standard weapons! What is the most complete absurdity, how can she “wave” in the cramped space of cars? Therefore, it was quickly canceled.
    2. Des10
      Des10 April 11 2017 20: 39
      +1
      Thanks for the competent explanation.
    3. captain
      captain April 11 2017 20: 42
      +2
      Dear Curious, thanks for the addition to the article, I am very glad that there are people who can professionally explain the difference between a saber and a saber.
    4. rasteer
      rasteer April 11 2017 20: 55
      +4
      One of the main differences between checkers and sabers has always been a sheath made of natural wood,

      In 1925, they approved a new type of checker - combining a blade of the former Dragoon type, ebony scabbard with nests for a bayonet and an Ephesian Don Cossack checker. The word tree is missing. what The saber of the sample of 1798. The scabbard was used in two types: wooden, covered with leather and shackled almost the entire length with metal, and solid iron. The word tree is present laughing It is somehow strange to determine the type of weapon by its sheath-cover.
      The blade of the checker is less curved than the saber.
      Also not an indicator, dragoon sabers did not differ in appearance from dragoon sabers.
      A saber, unlike a checker, has a hilt with a guard.
      After such an opus, you were not ashamed to continue to write well, at least a little history of the issue study. Wikipedia at least something about the checker is written pretty tolerably.
      And finally, the last - the checker is shorter than the saber. The maximum length of the checker is 88 centimeters, the saber is 110. The difference is obvious.
      Where did you get this set of digital numbers? Cossack saber of lower ranks arr. 1904, total length 95cm, blade length 75cm. Dragoon saber of lower ranks arr. 1841, Russia total length 92cm, blade length 73cm. The difference is not obvious. wassat
      1. Curious
        Curious April 11 2017 21: 17
        +5
        I am not a Wikipedia fan. but we will follow your advice.
        So, an excerpt from it.
        Shashka (from the Adyghe / Circassian “sashkhue” or “sashkho” - “big” or “long knife”) - a long-blade chopping-piercing edged weapon. The blade is single-blade, slightly curved, with a two-blade blade at the combat end, less than 1 meter long (in Russia, various models of checkers with a blade length of 81 to 88 cm were in service, the original Circassian ones were even lighter and shorter). Ephesus usually consists only of a handle with a bent, usually bifurcated head, without a cross (guard), which is a characteristic feature of this type of weapon. Wooden scabbard, covered with leather, with rings for the sword belt on the curved side. There are two types of checkers: checkers with a bow, outwardly similar to sabers, but not those (dragoon type), and more common checkers without a bow (Caucasian and Asian types).
        The only thing. what I missed, wrote "maximum length of checkers". rather than the "maximum length of a checker blade". admit it.
        1. rasteer
          rasteer April 11 2017 21: 40
          +2
          The blade is single-blade, slightly curved,
          Yes, but not weaker than the later samples of sabers. outwardly they practically ceased to differ; the whole essence was in a different balance.
          There are two types of checkers: checkers with a bow, outwardly similar to sabers, but not those (dragoon type),
          Of course, they got excited because the center of gravity was 21 cm from the lower extremity of the bow, which corresponds to Caucasian tops, while in sabers it is located 9–13 cm from the hilt.
          In general, yes, I somehow read the wiki diagonally, it seemed reasonable to write, but there is no heresy yet. wassat
          1. Curious
            Curious April 11 2017 21: 52
            +3
            By the way, you noticed a link at the end of my comment. there just all the drafts of the Russian army are described in detail.
            1. rasteer
              rasteer April 11 2017 22: 14
              +2
              Yes, I looked, thanks to the interesting material, but by the way it can be seen that the curvature of the drafts varies greatly depending on the year of adoption, as well as a clear distinction between Dragoon and Hessian and Cossack drafts.
    5. F.NN
      F.NN April 11 2017 21: 46
      +1
      Quote: Curious
      Let me add some purely technical details to the article.

      Thanks, it turned out very interesting.
    6. rasteer
      rasteer April 15 2017 01: 27
      0
      By the way, I saw a photo here and immediately remembered.
      The saber was taken to be worn on a waist belt, and the saber on the shoulder.
      A saber in a Caucasian scabbard and on a waist dully. https://topwar.ru/113050-timofey-yaschik-lichnyy-
      telohranitel-imperatricy-marii-fedorovny.html
  10. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 11 2017 20: 06
    0
    Quote: Kenneth
    And who told you about a good sharpening of a katana. Even most museums do not look very good. And during the war they were generally stamped.

    That's for sure. In any case, those in museums. Chinese knives are just a masterpiece against their background.
  11. captain
    captain April 11 2017 20: 38
    0
    My grandfather served in the cavalry, the tsarist and in the 1 th Horse at Budenny. He told me that after the attack, not all horsemen could look at the results of their labor. Grandfather said that there were Cossacks who cut a man in half.
  12. Curious
    Curious April 11 2017 20: 44
    +7
    Only foolish people can write that cavalry went into battle with worthless blades from springs and rails.
    Already following the results of the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-1829. General Paskevich raises the issue of the quality of knives for the Russian cavalry, since it is significantly inferior to the enemy’s weapons.
    To establish production in Zlatoust, more than a hundred experts were invited from renowned arms centers in Europe, including from Solingen and Klingenthal. There were eight departments in the created factory: steel, blade, hilt, scabbard, cuirass, arsenal, hedgehog and decorated cold steel arms.
    The Zlatoust weapons factory was the only state enterprise in the country that armed the army with cold steel, first the Russian, then the Soviet. During the years of the First World War, more than 600 thousand drafts, blades and cavalry peaks were made, during the years of the Great Patriotic War, our army received 583 thousand combat drafts and about 1 million army knives, nicknamed "black knives" (with it. - "Schwarz Messer") , which have become a hallmark, in particular, of the Ural Volunteer Tank Corps. In 1945, at the Victory Parade, all its participants were armed with Zlatoust cold steel.
    Such famous masters as Ivan Bushuev, Ivan and Vasily Boyarshinov, Petr Utkin and Larion Larin, Vasily Yuzhakov and Leonty Averkin worked in Zlatoust. Pavel Petrovich Anosov, a talented mining engineer who worked at the Zlatoust weapons factory, invented a method for smelting damask steel, from which the first blade was made in 1837. “My blades,” Anosov wrote, “are not inferior to the eastern ones, I cut gas shawls and feather pillows with them.”
    1. rasteer
      rasteer April 11 2017 21: 29
      0
      useless blades from springs and rails can write only foolish people.
      And why should rail and spring steel make unusable weapons while observing production technology? It was from this steel that weapons were made. Sorry, but alloy with chrome or nickel even at the beginning of the 20th century. was an unforgivable luxury. So they used ordinary carbon steel 50 or 65 everywhere where it was necessary to obtain elasticity and hardness.
      The Zlatoust weapons factory was the only state enterprise in the country that armed the army with cold steel, first the Russian, then the Soviet.
      You again missed something somewhere. There was also the Tula arms factory.
      1. Curious
        Curious April 12 2017 00: 40
        +6
        Rail steel is used for the production of rails, spring-spring - respectively, springs and springs. A checker can be made from a spring. And out of the rail. But the requirements for rails, springs and blades are different, all the same. In addition, the most common spring-spring steels 60G and 65G in our country contain 0,25 percent nickel and chromium. By the way, spring-spring steels in Russia, including those at the beginning of the 20th century, were scarce.
        With rail steels is more difficult. Here it is necessary to determine the time frame. If modern, then yes. But we are talking about the beginning - the middle of the 20th century, even the end of 19. And in those days there were problems with the quality of rail steel. And its chemical composition was completely different from the current one.
        If we take the ethical composition of rail steel in percent according to OST 4118-1932
        for rails of the first grade, then the carbon there in open-hearth steel, 1-0,48, in Bessemer's steel 0,611-0,38, and in Thomas's it was not standardized at all. And sulfur is 0,501-0,05, and phosphorus 0,06-0,05. With modern sulfur 0,08, phosphorus 006. So this is 009. And before that, technical specifications were accepted in 1932, 1908 and 1914. If a blade is made of such steel, then of course it will be difficult for them to slaughter.
        Based on the fact that to obtain acceptable properties of the blade, the carbon content should be about 0,7 percent, it was used, apparently, steel like modern high-carbon U8A.
        1. Curious
          Curious April 12 2017 01: 10
          +1
          Yes, about Tula and Chrysostom. Since 1817, the production of edged weapons has been concentrated mainly in Zlatoust, which, of course, did not exclude its manufacture in Tula. According to the state of 1823, the Tula Arms Plant was supposed to produce 20-25 thousand units of cold steel, and from 1817 to 1824 from 2 to 20 thousand units of cold steel were produced there annually. Although the state was supposed to produce only cleats and peaks, other types of knives were also manufactured at the plant, for example, from 1831 to 1836 the Tula plant manufactured 37294 pieces of knives, including long-bladed ones. Quite a lot of sabers and sabers were preserved, mainly officers, produced at the Tula arms factory from 1826 to 1848.

          In the second half of the 1858th century, the Tula plant, apparently, only once carried out a centralized order for knives - this was an order of the Ministry of War in 2, when the factory produced 1 semi-detachable blades, 2300 dagger and 1905 hatchets were repaired. Moreover, orders from individuals or groups, such as officers, were carried out by the plant throughout the 1905th century, right up to the beginning of the 4924th century. So, according to the report of the Ministry of War for 1904, the Tula Plant manufactured 1908 officer drafts in 10 for private orders. From XNUMX to XNUMX, more than XNUMX thousand drafts, sabers and blades were made at the factory on orders of the War Ministry.
          When I wrote about Zlatoust, I meant that this is the only factory that produced only edged weapons.
          1. alex-cn
            alex-cn April 12 2017 07: 45
            +1
            The Germans, the Shafovs, were also forgotten; the first of them, although they were invited, did much to develop a culture of production of cold steel.
          2. rasteer
            rasteer April 12 2017 08: 19
            +1
            In the second half of the XIX century, the Tula plant, apparently, only once carried out a centralized order for cold steel
            According to the Report on the artillery unit for 1826-1850. according to military orders, the Zlatoust plant was manufactured - 524353 units of cold steel, and the Tula, Sestroretsky and Izhevsk plants - 123514 units of cold steel, i.e. 24% of all production. But Sestroretsky produced only cleats and peaks and also engaged in the repair of weapons. In 1919, at the Tula arms factory there were more than 30 thousand ready-made blades. In general, of course, not Zlatoust, but production was established.
        2. rasteer
          rasteer April 12 2017 08: 01
          +3
          But the requirements for rails, springs and blades are different, all the same.
          I agree. The spring-spring was really a deficit, not even 65G, but a simple 50 and higher (I’ll immediately clarify that this is a modern steel grade that acts as an analogue of the spring beginning of the 20th century), which I wrote that it was more likely that small-scale and custom-made weapons could be. However, there is one more point because of the deficiency of chromium, they simply let carbon steel onto the springs, so they flew regularly.
          With rail steels is more difficult.
          I also agree that before the revolution, each plant made rails as God put on the soul, including dimensions (how everyone docked it is not clear laughing) We made knives from the Tagil rails of the 19th century (it’s good when there is a blacksmith for free lol) Good steel, I remember carbon there was around 0,7, it did not crack and heated up with a bang. This is where my conclusions came from.
          And sulfur is 0,05-0,06, and phosphorus 0,05-0,08. With modern sulfur 006, phosphorus 009. So this is 1932.
          Your 006 and 009 are not quite understood. Even in modern grades K76, E76, phosphorus and sulfur are normalized to 0,035-0,04, the same as 65G and only for CF S <0.01 P <0.02. For the beginning of the century, 0,05 was the norm.
          Apparently steel like the modern high-carbon U8A.
          This, by the way, is also possible because it is cheap.
          Here at Fedorov's in “Cold Weapons” I stumbled upon the fact that the gadget originally designed by Gorlov in 1881 weighed about 600 g, but with mass production at the Zlatoust plant the weight increased to 1 kg, since the plant could not cope with the requirements for the quality of the blades. So, the question is complex and if the spring is still expensive steel for individual weapons, then rail steel could well go.
          1. Curious
            Curious April 12 2017 10: 47
            +2
            There was a mistake in sulfur and phosphorus, but it was too late, apparently something was hooked. By last
            GOST R 51685-2013 Rail rails and sulfur and phosphorus 0,020 for all rail steels. Agree that much better.
            1. rasteer
              rasteer April 12 2017 12: 59
              +1
              GOST R 51685-2013
              I agree that I did not have the most up-to-date data.
  13. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 11 2017 20: 44
    +1
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: mar4047083
    Yes, how do I know who made drafts for the officers of the Red Army in the 1941 year

    Produced Zlatoust and car repair plant in Ordzhonikidze. Do you remember the stigma? Since the 32 year, quality has deteriorated.

    What is the stigma? Do you remember the stigma on toys that were broken in early childhood? Understand correctly, no offense, I didn’t care what brand there. One thing makes me happy, I’ve surrendered the Nagant, and I would also shoot someone.
  14. bubalik
    bubalik April 11 2017 21: 16
    0
    ,,, I wonder, about how many of them are in the warehouses, or have everyone melted down?
  15. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 11 2017 21: 24
    +2
    Quote: Curious
    Only foolish people can write that cavalry went into battle with worthless blades from springs and rails.
    Already following the results of the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-1829. General Paskevich raises the issue of the quality of knives for the Russian cavalry, since it is significantly inferior to the enemy’s weapons.
    To establish production in Zlatoust, more than a hundred experts were invited from renowned arms centers in Europe, including from Solingen and Klingenthal. There were eight departments in the created factory: steel, blade, hilt, scabbard, cuirass, arsenal, hedgehog and decorated cold steel arms.
    The Zlatoust weapons factory was the only state enterprise in the country that armed the army with cold steel, first the Russian, then the Soviet. During the years of the First World War, more than 600 thousand drafts, blades and cavalry peaks were made, during the years of the Great Patriotic War, our army received 583 thousand combat drafts and about 1 million army knives, nicknamed "black knives" (with it. - "Schwarz Messer") , which have become a hallmark, in particular, of the Ural Volunteer Tank Corps. In 1945, at the Victory Parade, all its participants were armed with Zlatoust cold steel.
    Such famous masters as Ivan Bushuev, Ivan and Vasily Boyarshinov, Petr Utkin and Larion Larin, Vasily Yuzhakov and Leonty Averkin worked in Zlatoust. Pavel Petrovich Anosov, a talented mining engineer who worked at the Zlatoust weapons factory, invented a method for smelting damask steel, from which the first blade was made in 1837. “My blades,” Anosov wrote, “are not inferior to the eastern ones, I cut gas shawls and feather pillows with them.”

    With all due respect to you, I do not agree. Bulk in principle can not be good, an example of a bayonet knife was already. Masters of the manufacture of knives, of course, they were, they made unit samples, and now they are. But not one will not spend money on the manufacture of mass auxiliary weapons. For one two chopping blows, special sharpening and special steel are not needed. Maybe in the 15th century they bother, and in the 20th, maybe more, at the cost of a change. Let's call on the help of metallurgists.
    1. Curious
      Curious April 11 2017 22: 01
      +2
      I, in general, is a metallurgist. But metallurgy will not help here. The very first thing is to decide on the quality criterion. Naturally, mass-produced blades cannot compete with blades, in fact, piece-wise manufacturing more early, especially with the Oriental ones. So “good not good” is an abstraction. For the blade of the era of mass use of cavalry, the quality is obvious, this is how much it allowed the soldier to perform functions on the battlefield. If they chop nails - then substandard.
    2. rasteer
      rasteer April 11 2017 22: 22
      0
      Let's call on the help of metallurgists.
      And we are here to call us laughing I already wrote above that the same grades (medium-carbon 0,4-0,65 percent) of steels were used for the manufacture of rails, springs and cold steel, the reason is the relative cheapness, if possible, to obtain the required characteristics of strength and elasticity. Well, on the topic of the quality of the final product, it is rather a matter of technology compliance. By the way, the Zlatoust and Tula blades were more expensive than European ones and therefore the War Department regularly bought them abroad.
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 April 11 2017 22: 56
        0
        That is, the Chinese knife from the stall, just technical perfection against their background. Do you understand correctly?
        1. rasteer
          rasteer April 11 2017 23: 02
          0
          That is, the Chinese knife from the stall, just technical perfection against their background.
          Let's just say that if you withstand the entire technological chain, we will get a decent blade from ordinary spring steel, which will give odds to many Chinese creations. There will be one drawback, it will rust with a bang. The reason is the absence of alloying additives, and if the steel of the sample is of the end of 19c, there is also an excess of oxygen in it. In general, everything relatively could fall into a low-quality specimen, or a worthy master. Mass production however.
    3. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2017 08: 47
      +1
      Quote: mar4047083
      Bulk in principle can not be good, an example of a bayonet knife was already.

      Can. The bayonet is not an example.
  16. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 11 2017 22: 34
    +1
    Quote: Curious
    I, in general, is a metallurgist. But metallurgy will not help here. The very first thing is to decide on the quality criterion. Naturally, mass-produced blades cannot compete with blades, in fact, piece-wise manufacturing more early, especially with the Oriental ones. So “good not good” is an abstraction. For the blade of the era of mass use of cavalry, the quality is obvious, this is how much it allowed the soldier to perform functions on the battlefield. If they chop nails - then substandard.

    I think allowed. In principle, there is no difference how many chipping remains after the carcass. Probably the main thing is to cut through the helmet qualitatively. And eastern blades are also in museums. Looking at the Turkish boarding sabers, I personally begin to doubt the talent of the Russian admirals. You can’t really look without tears. In the photos they still look menacingly, but in real life, the chefs have more and better knives.
  17. denisey
    denisey April 11 2017 22: 49
    +4
    Such nonsense in comments. Personally, in his hands he held the saber assigned to me for 42 years of release. Super steel, there were traces of chopping on it, chopping like a knife without a break.
    1. mar4047083
      mar4047083 April 11 2017 23: 12
      +2
      Like a combat checker, not a grand saber? And what was chopped? And you see, obviously not a very heavy weapon.
      1. denisey
        denisey April 12 2017 06: 12
        +4
        No, it’s not heavy, but my height is 168, it almost reached the ground. They gave the vine a cut (they didn’t allow the horse to cut off the ears of the belly). Combat checkers (with traces of fights (there was a very large notch on one). There was a case - in the ranks they practiced blows with a saber, one fighter approached close to another and accidentally hit the other with the tip of the dagger, the total part of the finger hung on the skin, cut off like a razor ( sewn (checkers after the Second World War did not sharpen))
  18. glavserb
    glavserb April 11 2017 23: 29
    +1
    Dear experts!
    Many years ago, I saw on the Web a note about legendary drafts that could cut any sabers and even swords ... they were stored in the Caucasus and after the revolution there were literally 1-2 of them. And they called them GYURDA.
    It is strange that no one here mentions them.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 11 2017 23: 49
      +3
      Quote: Slavserb
      And they called them GYURDA.
      It is strange that no one here mentions them.


      Haji Murat. Tolstoy. He has something written. But specifically, nothing. Why write about it if no one really knows? Yes, and specialists can not see here.
    2. ISSIDOR
      ISSIDOR April 13 2017 09: 32
      0
      In the museum in Krasnodar lies, ktozh will let her experience?
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 17 October 2017 12: 35
        0
        Quote: ISSIDOR
        In the museum in Krasnodar lies, ktozh will let her experience?

        is there just a fabulous GYURDA or is it just a checker ?. In general, in the Kuban there are a lot of different sabers in the hands, negotiate with the owners and try, but be prepared that your relatives will find you dug up in a ravine only a few years after you spoil the generic saber. repeat They are such, the heritage of their ancestors appreciate ...
  19. mar4047083
    mar4047083 April 12 2017 00: 06
    +5
    Quote: Slavserb
    Dear experts!
    Many years ago, I saw on the Web a note about legendary drafts that could cut any sabers and even swords ... they were stored in the Caucasus and after the revolution there were literally 1-2 of them. And they called them GYURDA.
    It is strange that no one here mentions them.

    Exactly the way it was. And now the logic test. Open Wikipedia and find out when the photos entered our lives, then return to the middle of the article with a photo of a detachment of super Caucasian warriors and look at their weapons. Relate their combat robes to the estimated date of the photo of this quality. As an answer, you get the estimated level of their intelligence and the level of the production base. It’s easier to go to the museum and realize that this is the weaponry of the soldiers of the second half of the 19th century. Something like this, already steam locomotives, steamboats appeared, and the guys with shields and arrows were dressed in chain mail (moreover, stolen by their ancestors). Leave stories about the super-Caucasian blades for some popular TV shows, go to the historical museum. You will discover a lot of new things about super-Japanese weapons.
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn April 12 2017 07: 49
      +1
      Actually Gourde, or Gyurda, at least according to its origin from Europe, Italians, if I am not mistaken. And the top is Zollingen.
      In one of the museum catalogs dating back to the 50s, when describing drafts and sabers, I found mention of blades that used Berdanov’s trunks to dispute, but, as I understood, there were only a few of them.
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth April 12 2017 08: 38
        +2
        This cannot be because it can never be. Strength is not enough.
        1. alex-cn
          alex-cn April 12 2017 11: 05
          +2
          Checker (sashhue). "This is the last, beloved and most terrible Circassian weapon ... used only for strikes, and not for defense; strikes by drafts are mostly fatal" (F. Tornau). The creators of the checkers are the Circassians of the 72th century themselves. “It is inconvenient to stab with a checker, but you can only chop it” (Khan Giray). The average length of the checker blade is 76-XNUMX cm. “The checker should be light as a feather, elastic as a vine, sharp as a razor. He who wears a heavy checker does not rely on skill” (Kabardian saying). “Since the Russians started the war in the Caucasus, Circassian drafts began to gain fame, the blows of which, often chopping gun trunks and even dissecting armor, made everyone amazed” (V. Potto).
          http://yandex.ru/clck/jsredir?from=yandex.ru%3Bvi
          deo%2Fsearch%3Bvideo%3B%3B&text=&etext=13
          88.kOHrZEnuMep27J0_AKskl_EkjfAQWUX5nrlWZ2yZFrZz75
          91lzaVFHywnE_JZymK6dwKeSiqg1pU2__CP9q2qHsLo7nJtwe
          0eor3mBiD9Ck.17ba9c9c97fd3e7735bea45c140e91046a1a
          d009 & uuid = & state = EIW2pfxuI9g, & data = Ul
          NrNmk5WktYejdiZGJXMlpCZGtSUUxMcjZkSmtfLW1ndnY5amp
          6LWNjM3BmTnF4eG5idWpYM2JFRUJ0bGRTbHVFMHZiNnh1Sm9T
          SHN5dzQ4b1Vrc08xNFhnM2NqdE94Ui1pNzdqUnBLU3FyVUdac
          zlTZ0I1Z1NDdVlSRUlub3k,&sign=635f4a12e7456998
          9e22f0564e91b1c8&keyno=0&b64e=2&l10n=
          ru look here, how much force is being applied, and no technology.
          1. rasteer
            rasteer April 12 2017 15: 22
            +1
            “Ever since the Russians started the war in the Caucasus, Circassian drafts began to gain fame, the blows of which, often chopping gun trunks and even dissecting armor, amazed everyone.” Then the question is when was it? If the end of the 18th century, the beginning of the 19th century, it is possible, of course, rifle steel was still relatively soft, but for this you just need a super sample of the checkerboard and its condition after such an act. cause serious concern. A modern barrel, even a checker made of modern steel using modern technology is unlikely to cut. Physics her mother wassat
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 17 October 2017 12: 29
        0
        Quote: alex-cn
        In one of the museum catalogs dating back to the 50s, when describing drafts and sabers, I found mention of blades that used Berdanov’s trunks to dispute, but, as I understood, there were only a few of them.

        believe me, these were not sabers but sabers, and even then there were very few of them, piece samples
        1. alex-cn
          alex-cn 17 October 2017 16: 02
          0
          see the quote above ... it’s not me who wrote and the checker was mentioned there ...
        2. rasteer
          rasteer April 18 2018 19: 27
          0
          believe me, these were not sabers but sabers, and even then there were very few of them, piece samples
          From this place is more detailed than a saber in cutting a rifle barrel is better than a checker? Here, or all the tales or the trunk was not a berdanka, but whatever the musket from the time of the capture of Kazan laughing
    2. rasteer
      rasteer April 12 2017 08: 42
      0
      with a photo of a detachment of super Caucasian warriors and look at their weapons.
      In this photo there is not a single checker, the only well-visible handle has a guard, so most likely it is a Persian or Turkish type saber.
      Quote: mar4047083
      Leave stories about super-Caucasian blades for some popular TV shows,
      And what stories did Wutz Bulat learn to do when the word gunpowder had not yet been invented. It is clear that such weapons were never massive, but from museum exhibits, it is difficult to determine how well the weapon was chopped, the reason is banal, you need to grind it at first as it should, because rust eats old steel in one fell swoop.
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 April 12 2017 09: 36
        +1
        Wutz is understandable, not tales. Yes, that's just it was not these hot guys from the photo who made it. Theft and banditry they lived, not metallurgy. And about quality, metallurgists and historians have all the same enlightened. There is not much difference if you put a kilogram piece of iron on the head.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 27 October 2017 12: 37
        0
        Quote: rasteer
        And what stories did Wutz Bulat learn to do when the word gunpowder had not yet been invented.

        in the Caucasus they could not even make normal steel, but they could not even dream of welded damask steel. So what about the Caucasian blades is exactly what fairy tales tell, but you just repeat them, and even claiming that the past ...
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 27 October 2017 13: 34
          0
          I know that WUTZ is cast, so without ......
          1. rasteer
            rasteer 29 October 2017 08: 44
            0
            Quote: 4-th Paradise
            I know that WUTZ is cast, so without ......

            Study the question of medieval metallurgy and you will understand. that the concept of "cast" in the production of steel has a slightly different meaning. And a similar method of production was already known in the Early Middle Ages, so that a similar technological steel could be made in the Caucasus on the 16-19th issue of knowledge and skills. But this is not known to us for certain.
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok April 18 2018 18: 00
              0
              Quote: rasteer
              so that technological steel could be made in the Caucasus 16-19v a question of knowledge and skills

              That's just the knowledge and technology in the Caucasus did not have, and this is a historical fact.
              1. rasteer
                rasteer April 18 2018 19: 01
                0
                Quote: 4-th Paradise
                That's just the knowledge and technology in the Caucasus did not have, and this is a historical fact.
                Were you there in those years? No, well, maybe you are a Highlander, then we will gladly listen to the stories as it was.
                I do not deny that the bulk of the Caucasian weapons blah made by no means in the mountains but to say that they could not do anything because they could not. It’s also not right, we don’t have such data. And on the basis of the definition "yes, there were all savages and had no knowledge", it is possible to refuse Indians in a higher education institution. they can still be counted among savages (have you been to India especially North?). but damn you somehow figured it out to do.
        2. rasteer
          rasteer 29 October 2017 08: 37
          0
          in the Caucasus they couldn’t even make normal steel,
          Where did you get this information from? I don’t argue that the bulk of the weapons were made from do not understand what, but this does not mean that there could not be real masters producing weapons of extra class. The question here is complicated, as they say, "a fairy tale lies, but a hint in it ...", 100% of the data about what was and what wasn’t there.
          1. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok April 18 2018 18: 08
            0
            Quote: rasteer
            Where did you get this information from? I do not argue that the bulk of the weapons were made of do not understand what, but this does not mean that there could not be real masters producing weapons of extra class.

            all weapons with a blade longer than 40 cm in the Caucasus were imported. The worst samples from Georgia, the best from Persia and from Turkey. And this is a historical fact. I’ll tell you another secret, after the Tatar-Mongol yoke in Russia, we again learned to make high-quality blades. And I am not complex about this, because this is a historical fact.
            1. rasteer
              rasteer April 18 2018 19: 03
              0
              I’ll tell you another secret, after the Tatar-Mongol yoke in Russia, we again learned to make high-quality blades. And I am not complex about this, because this is a historical fact.
              I'll tell you another secret about the complexes wassat I somehow do not remember about high-quality blades made 100% in Russia in the pre-Mongol period wink
  20. Barakuda
    Barakuda April 12 2017 02: 05
    +1
    I have not read the posts, sorry - there was no time.
    But I waved my saber at the time kindly. I thought - why do I need kendo, I will try Native (reed-reeds on the lake-rate). It's not just .. waved and truncated .. kapets to the enemy. There yahany-babai whole science. And with a horse-horse all the more. The right-hand radial brush grew by 2 cm in girth, and the shoulder grew - Fruits to work out.
    Only DEAR here in Ukraine to engage in such a hobby. sad
    Although PR is here - Cossacks-slash-characterists-invincible. And why then asked Crimeans for help, who robbed us, you?
    It seems that Khmelnitsky was completely de. And not only him.
    1. Barakuda
      Barakuda April 12 2017 02: 40
      +2
      I will add. And Caucasian and Syrian-like sabers, and the type of ancient Russian, which by the way are very reminiscent of a curved heavy saber. then, after the swords. (Too lazy to even take out the encyclopedia) But nobody wants to learn history.
      WHAT FOR ? Wikipedia is ...
    2. Kenneth
      Kenneth April 12 2017 08: 41
      +1
      Even from regular practice with the bokken, similar anatomical changes.
    3. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 April 12 2017 09: 09
      +3
      Quote: Barracuda
      Although PR is here - Cossacks-slash-characterists-invincible. And why then asked Crimeans for help, who robbed us, you?

      There were too many enemies to win. Only overpowered from the south, and already from the east, new fell. While you reach them, they have already burned everything, robbed and rode away. And yes, invincible. laughing
      Quote: Barracuda
      It seems that Khmelnitsky was completely de. And not only him.

      Khmelnitsky was one of the few more or less adequate hetmans. And the decision was right. Although ... on the other hand, if he had made a different decision, he would now be Poles and live in Europe. Still, a terrible quilted jacket with imperial ambitions and Putin's agent was this Khmelnitsky.smile
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 17 October 2017 12: 24
        0
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        There were too many enemies to win. Only overpowered from the south, and already from the east, new fell. While you reach them, they have already burned everything, robbed and rode away. And yes, invincible. laughing

        1. Interesting, and who came to the cross-section of the east, facts to the studio, with names and dates.
        2. In Szececzki, the assistant went to the south, west and north to rob, and from time to time Dontsov or Crimeans called for help from themselves. The murmur is ordinary.

        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        Khmelnitsky was one of the few more or less adequate hetmans. And the decision was right. Although ... on the other hand, if he had made a different decision, he would now be Poles and live in Europe. Still, a terrible quilted jacket with imperial ambitions and Putin's agent was this Khmelnitsky.

        was your Khmelnitsky. After he could not take revenge on Chaplinsky, he raised a butch under the slogan: “after Chaplinsky’s death we will become free, and therefore dir, hornbeat and rape all those who are against!” When it didn’t burn out, and the new king of Poland promised to slap his ass with his hand, (the old one said - understand it yourself, I have nothing to do with it) then immediately ran away to complain to Moscow. "Although I fought with you Muscovites, take me to you, I will be a boy, otherwise I will make friends with Kazimirka and we will come to visit you together with him and Krymchaks, let us be evil hell ..." conventional sub-intake.
  21. denisey
    denisey April 12 2017 06: 18
    +3
    Quote: Barracuda
    I have not read the posts, sorry - there was no time.
    But I waved my saber at the time kindly. I thought - why do I need kendo, I will try Native (reed-reeds on the lake-rate). It's not just .. waved and truncated .. kapets to the enemy. There yahany-babai whole science. And with a horse-horse all the more. The right-hand radial brush grew by 2 cm in girth, and the shoulder grew - Fruits to work out.
    Only DEAR here in Ukraine to engage in such a hobby. sad
    Although PR is here - Cossacks-slash-characterists-invincible. And why then asked Crimeans for help, who robbed us, you?
    It seems that Khmelnitsky was completely de. And not only him.

    We had two brothers in our company, professionally engaged in knives, so they preferred to chop off a horse with a saber (good Japanese katana (I remember exactly they had it) and nihonto like)
  22. Prometey
    Prometey April 12 2017 08: 51
    0
    Still, the introduction of a firearm was a measure to humanize the war, if I may say so. After the bullet there are chances to survive, but after hitting a saber or a saber - no. Yes, and not aesthetic death is obtained.
    1. Curious
      Curious April 12 2017 11: 34
      +1
      Especially if 12,7 or 14,5 hits. Solid aesthetics.
    2. rasteer
      rasteer April 12 2017 13: 06
      +2
      but after hitting a saber or a saber - no.
      Come on, it all depended on where you hit, especially the saber, as well as with the bullet. Survival after injuries began to increase, along with an increase in the level of medicine. So, first of all, thank Pirogov.
      1. alex-cn
        alex-cn April 13 2017 09: 32
        +1
        Rather, it led to the dehumanization of the war. Each biological species contains the murder of its brother (there are, of course, exceptions, also due to biological necessity). So, killing eye-to-eye is much harder than shooting a 300-meter “toy”. We conducted an experiment where, under hypnosis of untrained people, they were forced to stab more than 80 percent with a knife even under such conditions - they couldn’t ...
    3. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 17 October 2017 11: 55
      0
      Quote: Prometey
      Still, the introduction of a firearm was a measure to humanize the war, if I may say so. After the bullet there are chances to survive, but after hitting a saber or a saber - no. Yes, and not aesthetic death is obtained.

      Peter the first increased the caliber of Russian guns from 18 to 24 mm. What is the chance to survive if such a bullet hits the chest, with the medicine of that time. And how much is aesthetically pleasing?
  23. kipish412
    kipish412 April 12 2017 12: 07
    +3
    hello everyone. I’ll say the following about checkers. Firstly, all the charm in it in the sharpener is as much as three centimeters from the hilt 25 it’s a clumsy sharpener then a knife sharpener and a razor end. Donetsk itself steel 95x13 came across a checker of Zlatoust at the end of the 19th century, a spinning top light as a feather and did not understand what kind of steel but sharpening excellently kept a hole and perfectly chopped water bottles.
    1. ISSIDOR
      ISSIDOR April 13 2017 09: 41
      +1
      A bottle of water sucks, try an empty plastic one and a half cup not fixed and with a screw off, not all “cool” shrews get it.
  24. abc_alex
    abc_alex April 12 2017 12: 42
    +3
    balancing, and the technique of working with samurai weapons is very different from the Caucasian or Cossack drafts. But there is one general principle real combat use of these legendary blades - “on the spot with one blow”.


    There is one very serious mistake. The katana we know today is not a combat weapon, but a dueling and ritual weapon. In real combat, such swords were not used, I doubt that they can generally be used in battle against an armored warrior. In general, the Japanese samurai of the period of "real combat use" is either an equestrian archer or a foot spearman. Swords were used exclusively as an auxiliary weapon.
    1. kipish412
      kipish412 April 12 2017 13: 03
      +2
      I completely agree. Too katana is too promoted and it’s all about some show off in a country where I would have looked at the problem with a samurai, would he meet in battle with a Russian hero so that he would make it with a toothpick as if he would cut through the armor
      1. rasteer
        rasteer April 12 2017 20: 10
        +2
        Citizens abc_alex and kipish412. There is no contradiction that a katana, like a checker, is a weapon of one blow. The fact is that before the Tokugawa era, that is, essentially before the end of the war, the katana-tachi sword was more of an auxiliary weapon. We see the same thing with the Circassians. While armor was an inapplicable attribute of a warrior, a saber was an auxiliary weapon. The reason is commonplace, no matter how sharp the blade is. A multi-layer defense it breaks only in fairy tales. I remember unearthed the mass graves of those killed in battle at Visby about. Gotland (they were buried just as it was in armor) and it turned out that the bulk died from wounds in unprotected parts of the body. But against an unarmored opponent, that a saber, a katana turn into a "one-hit" weapon, primarily due to balancing, and not in the last hands in direct hands wassat
        1. kipish412
          kipish412 April 24 2017 16: 32
          +1
          so I don’t argue just for the offensive power of a katana or a katana CE.About a checker it’s modest and everything like ours is not very good and everything is foreign and there are warriors with steel eggs, all supermen will shoot mosquitoes on the fly. And we are somewhere on 10 roles
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 17 October 2017 11: 49
      +1
      Quote: abc_alex
      In real combat, such swords were not used, I doubt that they can generally be used in battle against an armored warrior. In general, the Japanese samurai of the period of "real combat use" is either an equestrian archer or a foot spearman. Swords were used exclusively as an auxiliary weapon.

      foot lancers were the poorest of the samurai (former peasants), who had no money but the cheapest katana. 90% of the samurai did not have any armor at all except a straw hat. So katanas were fought there, and a lot. ENo fought mainly with cheap katanas, in fact sabers of the 10th century with a length of handle and made of poorer iron than in Europe or Asia of the 10th century. and this is in the 17-18th century.
      Those katanas that advertise, until the 20th century, were produced in piece versions, and even then they appeared no earlier than the 16th century.
      1. abc_alex
        abc_alex 23 October 2017 02: 01
        0
        This is not confirmed by excavations. Even fragments of swords cannot be found at battlefields. But in many find arrowheads and spears.
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 27 October 2017 13: 47
          0
          Quote: abc_alex
          This is not confirmed by excavations. Even fragments of swords cannot be found at battlefields. But in many find arrowheads and spears.

          Duck everywhere there is practically no evidence of the use of swords on the battlefield for archaeological excavations, did not leave swords, even broken ones. They were too expensive to throw, and in Japan especially, there was much less iron there. Understand that there are archaeologists, and there are historians, and there are also military historians who study weapons and their distribution. And archaeologists here are only an aid to military historians, because they simply don’t even know many things, they have a different profession ...
  25. Astrey
    Astrey April 12 2017 12: 55
    +1
    Quote: gorgo
    But scary ... Horror.


    Not scary. Chopped wounds don't hurt. Quite a bit of practice, and the difference between a sword sword becomes understandable and clear.
    Go to the Temple of the Holy Spirit, on Saturdays you can join the fencers. Compared to a halberd, a checker is not terrible at all.)
    Funny, I would even say. )
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. gorgo
    gorgo April 13 2017 09: 31
    +1
    Quote: Nikolaevich I
    Yes, it’s scary ... I read the story of a front-line soldier about bayonet battles ... the tension in the fighting was so-oh (!) That there were cases when, according to the front-line soldier, "you only touch the German with a bayonet, and he falls dead ". I think that from the horror experienced by the soldier, the heart could not stand it. This phenomenon is confirmed by ancient "experiments" when, when an offender was executed, they just touched the neck of the condemned with an ax, death immediately ensued.

    Interesting. Honestly, I willingly believe that you can roam on the spot ... Without proper preparation.
  28. bbss
    bbss April 14 2017 00: 55
    0
    Quote: Shadow of Darkness
    In tsarist times, rails were made of cast iron, not steel! Yes, and under the Soviet regime for a long time they were cast-iron, hence the tales of the piercing ability of some cartridges. hi

    Nonsense! Try rolling a cast iron rail or forging it.
    1. Reviews
      Reviews April 20 2017 09: 45
      +1
      Quote: bbss
      cast iron rail or forge.

      What's the problem? Malleable cast iron is.
  29. Clone
    Clone 12 May 2017 00: 17
    0
    I won’t talk about what I don’t know, but when I first picked up a very old piece, which was transferred to the museum, I was very surprised at its weight — it’s heavy! Parents did not offend with health, but I just can’t imagine how she could “swing”. request
  30. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok 17 October 2017 11: 33
    0
    Quote: MooH
    By the way, yes. The author never mentioned the inhuman weight of a checker in comparison with the same katana or saber.

    The weight of the sabers reached 1,5 kg, far from all, but even such sabers were blades with a blade length of 500 to 1400 mm and a guard width of 40 to 100 mm. here's a photo of 2 Hungarian sabers and guess the third option
    Katan weight reached up to 2 kilograms. they were also very different. The length of the most ancient katanas reaches one and a half meters (full length) with a blade width of up to 70 mm and a thickness of up to 30 mm for the entire length of the blade, and this is without dol, the Japanese did not think of them.
    Well, the Zlatoust checkers weighed 600-700 grams, the classic ones reached 1 kg.
    duck who was not human weight?
  31. uporov65
    uporov65 17 December 2017 15: 48
    0
    Quote: Nikolaevich I
    "Rail" is another "class" of weapons!

    Rail, crowbar, file, valve, etc., is a Soviet-class weapon. Without fish ...
  32. Khas-iuan
    Khas-iuan 14 March 2018 15: 39
    0
    https://youtu.be/zIgihGCX2ZE

    https://youtu.be/N48lAItc1yw
    https://youtu.be/qWKbFHcb4h0
    https://youtu.be/VcM4TiCN1es

    https://youtu.be/OFBn0aR_m-Q