The Mystery of the Death of the Great Russian Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich

1045 years ago, in March 972, the great Russian prince, one of the creators of the Russian state (First Russian Empire) Svyatoslav Igorevich, died. According to the official version, Svyatoslav, with a small detachment, returned after the war with Byzantium, fell into a Pechenegian ambush and died.

The Russian chronicle “The Tale of Bygone Years” reports: “When spring came, Svyatoslav went to the thresholds. And smoking, the Pechenezh prince, attacked him, and killed Svyatoslav, and took his head, and made a cup from the skull, bound it, and drank from it. Sveneld came to Kiev to Yaropolk ”.

The Byzantine historian Leo the Deacon, in his stories: “Sfendoslav left Doristol, returned the prisoners according to the agreement and sailed with the rest of the comrades-in-arms, sending his way home. On the way, they were ambushed by the pacific - a large nomadic tribe that devours lice, carries their homes with them and spends most of their lives in carts. They killed almost everyone [dews], killed Sfendoslav together with others, so that only a few of the huge troops of the dews returned unharmed to their homes. ”

Starting with N. M. Karamzin, it was generally accepted that it was Byzantine diplomacy that persuaded the Pechenegs to attack Svyatoslav: “The then policy of the Emperors did not know magnanimity: foreseeing that Svyatoslav would not leave them alone for a long time, perhaps the Greeks themselves encouraged the Pechenegs to take advantage of the weakness of the Russian army "(" History of the Russian State ". T. 1).

Svyatoslav

Russian prince Svyatoslav Igorevich is one of the most prominent rulers and generals of Russia-Russia. No wonder he seriously inherited from the liberal (supporters of the pro-Western, "classical" version of history) and Marxist historians, who called him a warrior prince, an "adventurer" who put his personal fame, the search for booty for the squad above the state and national interests of Russia. They say that, as a result, his adventurous campaigns led to a severe defeat from the Romanian (Byzantine) army and the death of the prince himself.

The general conclusion was made as follows: “Svyatoslav was a model of a warrior, but not an example of a sovereign. He left the Russian land for the exploits of the distant, glorious for him, but not always useful for Russia. He was hardly a prince in his own land, his mother ruled for him. Svyatoslav broke away from Russia, acted only with one of his squad, and did not unite the united forces of all tribes, which could have, with the great talent of Svyatoslav himself, be of great importance for the fate of the Kiev state, and possibly for the whole of Eastern Europe "(" Russian state ". 1990).

Obviously, the This is a superficial look at the military-political activities of Prince Svyatoslav. It fits into the version of the history of Russia-Russia Westerners, according to which the history of Russia is secondary and peripheral in relation to the history of Western Europe. They say that Russia is “Asia”, a “barbaric country”, which “Viking-Swedes” (Scandinavians, Germans) have attached to civilization. Then the Mongol-Tatar invasion threw Russia back into the past, and only Peter I “cut through the window to Europe”. And only by following the western path of development (the western matrix) will Russia ever be able to achieve a level of development and well-being, for example, Poland or Portugal. Therefore, it is necessary to reject "Great Russian chauvinism", urgently repent of the sins of the "bloody" Alexander Nevsky, Ivan the Terrible, Joseph Stalin and other Russian rulers and statesmen. Forget about the great Russian history, which allegedly was not. Allegedly, the whole history of Russia is all about mistakes, blunders, adventurism, blood, dirt, ignorance and drunkenness. The history of the “prince-adventurer” Svyatoslav, “who left his homeland for the sake of glory and feats”, fits in with this line.

However, there is another view on the state activity of Svyatoslav. As noted by one of the leading Soviet and Russian historians, an expert in the history of diplomacy, foreign policy and ideology of Ancient Russia A.N. Sakharov: “It is amazing, but Svyatoslav’s whole life, as we know it from Russian chronicles, from Byzantine sources, appeared as one solid call of the Byzantine empire, call violent and uncompromising, which became his fame and his tragedy. All your hikes, barely taking up weapon and leading the Kiev squad, he eventually sent to fight the empire. It would be naive to think that this struggle was explained only by Svyatoslav’s personal feelings. Behind the confrontation of the two countries were their common socio-economic and political interests, the laws of social development. ”

The military-strategic, social and economic interests of Russia were behind Svyatoslav’s uncompromising struggle against the Khazars, which the Russian chronicle (written already in the Christian era and edited in the interests of the Christianized elite of Russia) characterizes very briefly and impassively: “Ide Svyatoslav for Kozars”. As A. N. Sakharov writes: behind the laconic and passionless phrase from the chronicle “there stands an entire epoch of the liberation of the Eastern Slavic lands from under the yoke of the Khazars, the transformation of the confederation of Eastern Slavic tribes into a single ancient Russian state. It was a time of consolidation and self-assertion, new foreign policy contacts and the search for new trade routes, and Khazaria has traditionally been the enemy in this formation of Russia, the enemy permanent, persistent, cruel and insidious. ... Wherever it was possible, Khazaria opposed Russia, closed its way to the East, forming here a powerful anti-Russian bloc consisting of Volga Bulgaria, Burtases, other Poksky and Volga tribes, some peoples of the North Caucasus. As before, the Eastern Slavic tribe of Vyatichi was dependent on the Kaganate ... It was difficult for Russia to fight against the eternal rival, which Byzantium stood for long decades. We had to endure Sarkel's fortress near our borders, we had to endure insidious attacks on the routes returning from the East. Over a hundred years, step by step, Russia pushed the Khazar Khaganate away from its destinies, but until the middle of the 10th century, Khazaria, although weak and isolated, was one of the main enemies of Slavic uplifting. ”

Thus, the Khazar campaign of Svyatoslav solved the centuries-old strategic task of Russia. The Khazar military-political and partly trade “elite” was destroyed, as well as the army and strategic fortresses of the Kaganate, Russian outposts appeared in their place. Russia crushed a historical adversary, who for a long time parasitized Slavic-Russian and other tribes (Saber blow of Svyatoslav on the Khazar "miracle-yuda"; 1050 years ago Svyatoslav squads defeated the state of the Khazars). Rus subordinated huge areas of the Volga region, Azov, Don. Svyatoslav could start a fight with Byzantium for the Crimea and the Balkans (Bulgaria), without fear of being hit in the back by the Khazars.

“... The campaign was over: the main goal was achieved - Khazaria was crushed. The Russian army drew a huge triangle in these parts between the points of Itil - Semender - Sarkel, between the mouth of the Volga, the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea, the lower course of the Don. To the north were fallen Bulgars and Burtases. By its eastern corner, this triangle was turned into the Azov Sea, the Taman Peninsula, the Bosporus of the Cimmerian - Kerch Strait, where Russian settlements had long been located. From here it was close to the Crimean possessions of Byzantium. ... In essence, Svyatoslav spent three years on the march and during this time subdued to his influence a vast territory from the Oka forests to the grape Semender. ... Svyatoslav's campaign finally put an end to the Khazar yoke over the Eastern Slavic lands, freed the tribe of Vyatichi from the influence of the Khazars, removed a powerful military barrier from the path that blocked the ways of the Russian merchants to the East, eliminated a force that was always ready to strike Russia in the back during her military enterprises in the south and east. Now, in the Northern Black Sea region, near the mouth of the Dnieper, on the Taman Peninsula, Russia could not fear pressure from the Khazars. The Volga and North Caucasian allies of Khazaria also received a very clear military lesson. Dramatically changed the whole situation in the region. Russia came to the first roles here, regaining the positions lost during the numerous steppe invasions ”(A.N. Sakharov.“ We are from the kind of Russian ... ”. L., 1986.).

Similar positions were held by another “titan” of the Soviet and Russian historical science Boris Rybakov. The historian notes that “... with all its unprecedented scope, Svyatoslav’s military activities are subordinate only to two directions: the Volga-Caspian (Khazar and Tsaregrad, Byzantine. Both of them are ... the main directions of the trade expeditions organized by Kievan Rus as a state.” Russia fought for freedom and the security of trade communications. The “parasitic state of the Khazars”, who lived at the expense of customs duties and predatory raids aimed at capturing people into slavery, controlled all exits from Eastern Europe to Russia. The island of Guzah, Khorezm, the possession of the Caliphate. The Khazar kaganate took enormous duties from the trade caravans and, on occasion, simply plundered them. Byzantium led expansion in the Slavic Balkans, establishing its control over the places where the old Rus route to Constantinople.

And the activity of Prince Svyatoslav was very impressive: “the huge Khazar empire was crushed and disappeared forever from the political map of Europe. The paths to the East were cleared; Volga Bulgaria has ceased to be a hostile barrier and, in addition, Sarkel and Tmutarakan, the two most important cities of the southeast, became Russian centers. The correlation of forces in the half-Byzantine, half-Khazar Crimea has changed, where Kerch (Korchev) also became a Russian city ”(B. A. Rybakov.“ The Birth of Russia. ”M., 2012.). One hundred years later, the Russian prince Gleb, Svetoslav's great-great-grandson, measured the frozen Kerch Strait and left the famous inscription about how he “measured the sea on ice from Tmutarakan to Korchev”.

Then Svyatoslav continued the struggle, solving national tasks to strengthen the Northern Black Sea region and the Balkans (in the distant future, the same tasks will be performed by the Russian tsars and General Secretary Stalin, showing that the rulers can change, and the strategic tasks of the Russian civilization and the people remain the same). The evaluation of the war between Russia and Byzantium (Eastern Roman Empire) was already distorted at that time, in which the incompleteness of the Russian chronicles and the extreme tendentiousness of the Greek (Byzantine) sources, which sought to portray the Russians as “wild barbarians”, “Tauroskifs”, the Bulgarians, who invaded Bulgaria, and the Byzantines (the Romans) as friends and liberators of the Bulgarians. Greek sources are full of omissions, controversies, blatant lies (for example, the loss of Rus and Romans in battles, when hundreds and thousands of killed Rus and other “barbarians” fell on one affected Roma) and a clear unwillingness to recognize the anti-Byzantine Russian-Bulgarian alliance. Although this alliance was already revealed at the first appearance of the Russian troops on the Danube, when 80 of the Bulgarian cities passed to the side of Svyatoslav. These principles of the policy of the rulers of the West have not changed for more than a thousand years. Westerners rewrite history to their advantage, black is transformed into white, and white into black.

Svyatoslav expanded the possessions of Rus to Pereyaslavets on the Danube, the “Island of the Rus”, formed by the bend and delta of the great European river, the sea and the “Trayanov rampart”, where the Rus streets lived (one of the predecessors of the late Cossacks). Svyatoslav himself was very pleased with the new land, where he moved to 967-969. “There is no life in Kyev,” said Svyatoslav to his mother Olga and the boyars. “I wish to live in Pereyaslavtsi on the Danube, for it is the environment of my land ...” Thus, Svyatoslav founded the new residence of the Grand Duke on the Danube, securing a new, very advantageous position at the intersection of different paths.

The Russian and Bulgarian troops, with the support of the allies (the Pechenegs, the Hungarians), beat out the Byzantines-Romans from Bulgaria, and also defeated the treacherous, byzantine Bulgarian party. Then the Allies launched a broad offensive across the northern border of the Byzantine Empire. Svyatoslav's troops crossed the Balkans, crossed the Byzantine border and took Philippopolis (modern Plovdiv). One of the decisive battles in Thrace, when the warriors of Svyatoslav met with the superior forces of the enemy, was colorfully described by the Russian chronicler: “Do not disgrace the land of the Ruski, but lie down, dead because there is no shame for imam. If we flee, shame imam. I’m not a refuge, but let us be strong, as before you; If my head fall down, then think it over. " And Russia was up, pulled down, and defeated Svyatoslav, and the Greeks fled.

True, the other part of the army, dominated by the Russian allies - the Bulgarians, the Pechenegs and the Hungarians, was defeated under Arcadiopol. But it was not this battle that decided the outcome of the war in 970. All sources telling about the Russian-Byzantine war: the Tale of Bygone Years, and Leo Deacon, and other Byzantine chronicles unanimously report that in the summer of 970, the Greeks asked for peace. Obviously, the winners of the world do not ask. If the core of the army of Svyatoslav was broken and fled under Arkadiopol, it is clear that the Greeks (Romes) would have no need to seek a peace agreement with the Russian prince. Tzimishes was to organize the pursuit of a defeated enemy, finish him off. In terms of finishing the already defeated enemy, the Romans were great masters and did not know favor to the defeated.

Thus, Svyatoslav won a decisive battle. And he moved "to the city, fighting and smashing the cities ... And the king called his bolsheviks on the floor, and called him:" What did we really can't oppose to him? "The Byzantines decided to ask for peace. And this meant that Svyatoslav defeated the main forces of the enemy, and moved towards Constantinople-Constantinople, “breaking” other “grads” along the way. First, the Romans failed. Svyatoslav promised to put his tents "in front of the Byzantine gates." Then the Greeks offered the Russian prince gold and pavoloki, but Svyatoslav showed indifference to them. John Tsimischy again sends his people to the prince and prays for peace. This time, the ambassadors, according to Russian sources, offered weapons as gifts. Svyatoslav was delighted with such gifts. This made it possible to stop the advance of the Russian troops on Constantinople. Until Constantinople, Russian remained the entire 4 of the day's journey. The Romans agreed with Svyatoslav’s securing on the Danube and the need to pay tribute. Svyatoslav: "I take the gifts and many, and come to Pereyaslavets with great praise."

The Romans deceived and did not keep the peace. Taking advantage of the respite, they mobilized new forces (Zimiskhiy recalled the troops from the Middle East), prepared a fleet, and in 971 began a counter-offensive. And Svyatoslav sent the Allied forces, and was not ready for a new campaign. Obviously, Svyatoslav did not expect that the enemy would recover from the defeats so quickly and immediately break the agreement. Passages in the mountains were open, they were not guarded. Whose it was a miscalculation - the Bulgarians or the Russian garrison in the Bulgarian capital Preslav, is unknown. Probably, the provisant grouping in Bulgaria itself worked. The result is known. A huge and well-armed Byzantine army quietly surrounded Great Preslav, where the Bulgarian Tsar Boris and the Russian detachment headed by Sveneld were located. After a desperate assault, the Romans broke the resistance of the small Russian-Bulgarian garrison and took the city. At the same time, the environment managed to break through part of the squad of Sveneld.

The Byzantine army began the occupation of Bulgaria. Tzimiskhy pledged the Bulgarian capital and many other cities and fortresses to plunder his army. Then the Greeks came to the Danube, where Svetoslav stood in the Dorostol fortress with a small army. This time the enemy had a complete advantage: the ground forces blocked the fortress from land, the fleet from the side of the river. A number of major battles took place here, and in some cases, literally a miracle (the element of nature) saved the Roma from defeat. For more than two months, the army of Zimiskhiy unsuccessfully besieged Dorostol. Both armies were exhausted in fierce battles, and did not achieve victory. Then the negotiations began. Tzimiskes, fearing problems in the rear and new battles with the Rus, who, even with a small number, fought the enemy on equal terms, peacefully signed the world. The world was honorable. Svyatoslav pledged not to fight with Byzantium and left with great loot. Read more in the articles: Bulgarian campaign Svyatoslav; Bulgarian campaign Svyatoslav. 2 part; War Svyatoslav with Byzantium. Battle of Arkadiopol; Battle for Preslav and the heroic defense of Dorostol.

With the departure of Svyatoslav from Bulgaria, the independence of the Eastern Bulgarian kingdom fell (Western Bulgaria retained its independence). The Romanes occupied the main cities, renamed them, humiliated the Bulgarians and deprived them of their statehood. Tsar Boris was overthrown, along with his brother Roman, whom the Greeks defied, he was taken to Constantinople and took part in the solemn triumph that Tzimisy gave himself. The crown of the Bulgarian kings was given to the church of St. Sophia, then in the imperial palace, Boris resigned his royal insignia — precious clothes, royal shoes. Broken, covered with blood, robbed and humiliated Bulgaria lost its independence for two centuries. All this was the result of the traitorous policy of the provisant ruling circles.

Obviously, Svyatoslav was not an “adventurer” who “roamed” the steppes in search of fame. He solved the main national tasks of Russia. As B. A. Rybakov noted: “His Volga-Khazar campaign was vital for the young state of Russia, and his actions on the Danube and the Balkans were a manifestation of friendship and solidarity with the people of Bulgaria, whom Svyatoslav helped to defend his capital, and his king, and political independence from the encroachments of Byzantium. ... In relation to Russia, all of Svyatoslav’s swift activity not only did not disregard her interests or unconsciously strive to “overlap” and neglect it, but, on the contrary, everything was designed to solve large state tasks that required the exertion of all forces. The most important task, which was to ensure security from the Khazar Kaganate, was solved quite successfully. The second task is to create a peaceful trading bridgehead on the western coast of the Russian Sea (the Black Sea was then called. - A. S.), in cooperation with Bulgaria - was not implemented ... ”But this is not Svyatoslav’s fault. This task will be solved for centuries by the Russian tsars and will not complete the great work (the seizure of Constantinople). Svyatoslav could continue the struggle, restoring strength in Russia, but he was eliminated.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Korsar4]

Nevertheless, the opposition of the structure of Olga and Vladimir Svyatoslav has a place to be. No one denies the talents of Svyatoslav as a military leader. In general, the time is rather legendary, and much can only be assumed.

[Alikos]

Quote from Korsar4

Nevertheless, the opposition of the structure of Olga and Vladimir Svyatoslav has a place to be. No one denies the talents of Svyatoslav as a military leader. In general, the time is rather legendary, and much can only be assumed.

Prince Svyatoslav is the greatest Slavic warrior-strategist!
The defeat of the huge Khazar empire is an example

[Concept1]

The truth cannot be silenced!

[cost]

Svyatoslav Igorevich was never Grand Duke, if only because the author of the article was Alexander Samsonov, that the title of Grand Duke himself appeared three hundred years after his death

The appearance of the title “Grand Duke” refers to the second half of the XII century and is associated with the political realities of the collapse of the Old Russian state, the growth of ambitions of certain Rurikovich clans and the need for a multi-stage title. Attempts to establish a grand title took place simultaneously in several lands of Russia - Kiev, Chernigov, Galicia-Volyn, Smolensk and Vladimir-Suzdal. After the unification of the Russian lands around Moscow and Lithuania by the beginning of the XNUMXth century, the title “Grand Duke” remained only with the rulers of these states - “Grand Dukes of Vladimir, Moscow and All Russia” and “Grand Dukes of Lithuania and Russian”. The rest of the great princes left the historical scene.

[V.ic]

Quote: avva2012

The empire was then: Roman / Byzantine, Holy Roman, Chinese and ALL.

... Maya Maya and Incas had no empires?

[avva2012]

..the Mayan Mayans and Incas had no empires?

Mayan - The civilization of Mesoamerica, known for its writing, art, architecture, mathematical and astronomical systems. The beginning of its formation dates back to the preclassical era (2000 BC - 250 BC), most Mayan cities reached their peak in the classical period (250-900 CE). By the time the conquistadors arrived, it was in deep decline. Empire of Inks - The largest Native American early class state in South America in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries by area and population. No, well, how did the contemporaries of Svyatoslav know that one Empire in South America, of course, was, and the second was not yet formed. About the Chinese and then, at that time, not many that were known.

[venaya]

Quote: avva2012

About the Chinese and then, at that time, not many that were known.

And about the territory now called "China" much is already known. It is important to simply become interested in this issue - the seeker will find!

[rasteer]

... Maya Maya and Incas had no empires?

Do you think it was?
If at least something is known about the Incas, then all our knowledge about the Mayans is heaps of ruins and artifacts. Then the Aztecs, the only trouble is that they, like the Incas, were later.

[V.ic]

Quote: rasteer

Do you think it was?

"The primary state formation with the capital in Cuzco arose no later than the XIII century." http://www.universalinternetlibrary.ru/book/70231
/read_book.shtml
I think that existed as well as the Persian Empire, as well as the empire of Alexander the Great. Or do you doubt the historicity of Alexander Filippovich of Macedon?

[rasteer]

I doubt that the states of America can be called empires. This is especially difficult to do with Maya, simply because there is little information about the times of its heyday. There are different opinions about the Mayan political system, one of them is very reminiscent of Russia from the time of Svyatoslav, a confederation of principalities where the place in the hierarchy is determined by the power of the prince. However, it is unclear whether the lords of the Mayan cities have any kindred ties.

[Niccola Mack]

Everyone speaks so confidently about "empires" - as if someone has clear definitions of the concept of "empire." So much territory, so many people, such and such high temples, etc.
If you look at the genesis of the Roman word "imperare", then it means only "command", and the concept of "imperium" meant the highest executive power.
And the basic terms of, say, the history of Russia generally appeared at the end of the 18th and the 19th centuries.
And contemporaries, when mentioning the names "Kievan Rus" and "Vladimir Rus", the first thing they would ask would be "what are you talking about?"

[avva2012]

Quote: V.ic I think that there was also, like the Persian Empire, as well as the empire of Alexander the Great. Or do you doubt the historicity of Alexander Filippovich of Macedon?

Dear V.ic, they were, but much earlier. it is about the 10th century.

[venaya]

Quote: avva2012

Oh god again! Well, what empire ?!

Try re-reading the book of Mavro Orbini's Slavic Empire. Maybe in this case something will be clear to you.

[avva2012]

Try re-reading the book of Mavro Orbini's Slavic Empire.

Dictionary of Dal defined the Empire as "a state whose lord bears the dignity of the emperor, an unlimited, supreme ruler." Great Soviet Encyclopedia offers in the meaning of empire already 2 meanings. Firstly, it is “the name of the monarchical states, the head of which is the emperor”, among which Rome after the fall of the republic, the eastern part of the Roman Empire - the Byzantine (existed until 1453), the state of Charlemagne (768-814), the German Holy The Roman Empire (962-1806), the Russian Empire from the time of Peter I to the overthrow of the monarchy (1721-1917), France under Napoleon I and Napoleon III (1st and 2nd empires), Austrian (1804-1918 gg., from 1868 - Austro-Hungarian). Secondly, “the empire sometimes refers to the organization of the colonial rule of individual bourgeois states. In this sense, they speak of the British Empire as an organization that embraces all the dominions and colonies together with Great Britain, and the French Empire, despite the republican character of the French political system. ” Modern political science considers the Empire (lat. imperium - power, domination), as "1) a monarchical state headed by the emperor; 2) a complex state device consisting of a metropolis (Greek meter - mother and polis - city) - the central part of the state and colonies (lat, colonia - settlement) subordinate to the central government of states (for example, the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the Russian empire)".
You know, not only did not re-read, but did not even read. You, understand that nonsense, this is also the result of the brain. Delirium is often based, often on reality, but the conclusions are painful. True, there is an opinion that there are simply a lot of conditionally healthy people and they agreed among themselves to consider white, white, and black, black. Like, if there were a majority of crazy people, then the world would be different. I don’t know, I don’t know, but I consider myself conditionally healthy, therefore, I agree with what other conditionally healthy people wrote before me, and therefore, there is no "Slavic Empire" for me. Wasn’t the abbot in the 17th century able to carry nonsense, that is, to suffer from some kind of mental illness, and accordingly be a minority among the conditionally healthy? It happens.

[venaya]

Quote: avva2012

True, there is an opinion that there are simply a lot of conditionally healthy people and they agreed among themselves to consider white, white, and black, black. ... I consider myself conditionally healthy

It is nice to read your recognition of incompetence in this matter, it positively characterizes you. It is another thing to draw conclusions when recognizing one’s own incompetence in a particular issue - this is really from the category of psychiatry. How do you manage to determine what is white and what is black - to taste, or what?

[avva2012]

It is another thing to draw conclusions when recognizing one’s own incompetence in a particular issue - this is really from the category of psychiatry. How do you manage to determine what is white and what is black - to taste, or what?

In secret, only to you, this conspiracy majority over minority. And when the color is determined to taste, it synesthesia, found in neurology and genius personalities.

[Han Tengri]

Firstly, the book of Mavro Orbini is called "Slavic Kingdom", secondly, it was written in 1601 ... 1601 g !!! Yes, this is the very heyday of such sciences as history, archeology and the scientific method, in general (where, there, to modern scientific pygmies!) !!! Do you, by the occasion, still have the works of historians, since the Paleolithic? Here there will be truth, so true !!!
A couple of quotes from the venerable Mavro:

"If the name of the Slavs is new, then the glory gained by arms and blood is inherent in nature and inherited from their ancestors who won glorious victories in Asia, Europe and Africa. They were called vandals, burgundions, Goths, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Gepids, Getae, Alans, Verlahs, or Heruls, Avars, Skirs, Gira, Melanchlens, Bastars, Singers, Dacians, Swedes, Normans, Fennians or Finns, Ukrainians or Unkrans, Markomans, Quads, Thracians and Illyrians. They were all Slavs and had one language. "

Ancient writers called them differently. Eli Spartian and the Capitol in the Biography of Pius and Flavius ​​Vopisk in the Biography of Aurelian called them the Roxolans, Pliny called them the Toxolans, Ptolemy the Troxolans, Strabo the Rasnals and Roxans, Rafael Volateransky and many others called them Ruthenians.
Now they are usually called Russian, that is, scattered, since in Russian or in Slavic Rossei means nothing but scattering. And not without reason they called them Russes or scattered, because after the Slavs occupied the entire European and part of Asian Sarmatia, their colonies were scattered from the Arctic Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea and the Adriatic Gulf, from the Great Sea to the Baltic Ocean

Straight balm on the tender soul of a notorious Russian nationalist! Orbini, in his remarkable work, did not indicate, by chance, which sea the Great Rus dug up? And then before Ukrainians somehow uncomfortable ...

[avva2012]

Quote: HanTengri Straight balm on the tender soul of a notorious Russian nationalist! Orbini, in his remarkable work, did not indicate, by chance, which sea the Great Rus dug up?

Abraham begat Jacob .... Your data is outdated. Alas, alas, we all came from the Jews. I’ll go cut a vein with a sword-treasure.

[avva2012]

Everything is more serious with me, I am constantly drawn to either Sara or Rachel. Is it being treated, doctor?

[Han Tengri]

Ohhh! This is a very strong spell! There is one of two things: either a lobotomy or circumcision! )))

[cost]

tried both that and another - did not help. Still pulls

[chenia]

Quote: HanTengri

And then before Ukrainians somehow uncomfortable ...

Take the opposite-White.
Now it remains to be measured, whose more?

[Han Tengri]

Quote: chenia

Take the opposite-White.
Now it remains to be measured, whose more?

And if you translate from Aesopian into Russian?

[Curious]

When I started reading, I thought that I got to the Ukrainian site. Rechecked. No, VO. Well then, I think, some of the Ukrainian "neo-historians" began to print. Not again. Samsonov shines.
Reading the author, you understand that the scientific definition of graphomania (the pathological desire for multi-writing, for composing works that claim to be published in literary publications, pseudo-scientific treatises, etc.) was written by smart people. So you need to be able to press the humpback to the wall.

[venaya]

Quote: Curious

Samsonov shines

It is pleasant that at least one author on the site relies on documentary facts that have not been ruined by the tyagomotin of mentally ill “historians”. And what a howl and frank with ... whose began in the comments, it’s a pleasure to look at who and what is.

[Cartalon]

Well, yes, the world Jewish Freemason and Protestant musulmanzizantiysk
The conspiracy has been documented by all the ufologists of the planet.

[kalibr]

And which ones? Those miserable quotes from the annals without indicating what kind of annals, havoc, affiliation ... And when a link to a book is given in parentheses, then it is proper to indicate pages - for example, C.333)

[Rivares]

Quote: kalibr

Those miserable quotes from the annals without indicating what kind of annals, havoc, affiliation ... And when a link to a book is given in parentheses, then it is proper to indicate pages - for example, C.333)

tale of bygone years. I can send you a scan, but still you will not read it in Old Russian. There are still pathetic quotes from Leo Deacon, but there is such a fantasy !! 300 thousand Russkifs!

[Cartalon]

Leo the Deacon was a contemporary like that, exaggerating the strength of the enemy is a common occurrence, and PVL was written 100 years later.

[rasteer]

Samsonov shines.

By no means is he so refreshing in his memory of himself, I remember I already read it here.

[Mikado]

So you need to be able to press the humpback to the wall.

I’ll write the phrase in the piggy bank in gold letters.
What do you want, most respectable? Spring, aggravation!

[Alikos]

Quote: avva2012

1045 years ago, in March 972, the great Russian prince, one of the creators of the Russian state, died (First Russian Empire)

Oh god again! Well, what empire ?! The empire was then: Roman / Byzantine, Holy Roman, Chinese and ALL. An empire is a specific state entity that has certain attributes. There were no such signs in Russia then. Why nonsense to flog? Well, it would be better if Svyatoslav was reckoned among the religionoids, although it would be ridiculous. And so, a clean clinic. The author of the laurels of the “historians” - do not let ukrofashists sleep?

Zionizd too? The death of the parasitic Khazaria haunts?

[avva2012]

Zionizd too? The death of the parasitic Khazaria haunts?

I go, I go to the groceries, there is no cheese, some .... Buy a vernier caliper, measure your head, donate blood to a halogen group and calm down. Take a fresh air to the National Battalion. It might help. Alas, this is not therapeutically treated.

[gringo]

the main thing that Svyatoslav did, or rather finished what Rurik and Oleg began, depressed everyone, the Byzantines, Khazars, Arabs, Scandinavians and Westerners, Europeans, the so-called path from the Varangians to the Greeks and from the Varangians to the Khazars, i.e. trade between these countries was completely controlled by Russia, which of course no one liked.

[Army soldier2]

avva2012, Do you want to prove something to someone? If Samsonov writes that the proto-Slavs dug up the Black Sea, and the proto-Ukrainians only leveled the shores, his article for citations would be sorted.
X century - the time of the beginning of the formation of the Slavic, if you want the Russian state. And Svyatoslav was nothing more than a military leader, albeit very talented. His military merits are not disputed by anyone. Although their main goal is to generate income by military means and new tributaries. And what did he do as a statesman? Have you introduced laws? Built a system of government? Developed crafts? There was none of this. Therefore, the next Samsonov pearl, recognizable from the 16-th word of the "First Russian Empire" is the next crackling of a graphomaniac.

[gringo]

He laid the foundation for posterity, removed the main competitor from the path. And the campaigns were aimed at strengthening the position of Russia in trade, basically, new tributaries are also not bad, this is called scientific expansion. If Russia would gain a foothold in Bulgaria, then all the trade routes acceptable in time would fall into the hands of Russia, and one should not forget about the spread of cultural and religious influence. In the same way, almost immediately after the death of the founder of the dynasty, the empire of Charlemagne collapsed, but everyone recognizes him as a great ruler, although he did the same, stopped the expansion of the Arabs and united all the surrounding lands by force.

[kalibr]

You have too much "would." And Karl does not need to be compared. Karl just created schools, adopted laws - he was a sovereign, not a military leader.

[gringo]

Karl discovered what? Have you watched Ukrainian TV? which schools in the 9th century in Europe in them probably Archimedes taught or Newton. And the laws? All the laws that Karl adopted were aimed only at maintaining the power of Karl himself and limiting the power of the feudal lords, and apparently they were so good that as soon as he passed the feudal lords tore the empire to pieces. The main law that Karl passed was the equality of the Franks and other residents Empire, this law in Russia did not have to be adopted, because equality was a priori.
And “WOULD” in my comment to indicate that the campaigns were aimed not so much at obtaining military production, but set themselves state interests. Svyatoslav was simply unlucky to meet his Leo.

[Weyland]

Quote: gringo

which schools in the 9th century in Europe in them probably Archimedes taught or Newton.

Alcuin, Angilbert, Bada Hon. ... google "Carolingian Renaissance" - you'll find out a lot of interesting things!

[gringo]

Damn, well, I’m sorry. Karl really opened a school, he learned to write a bit for himself and his children, and even at the end of his life, well, the sovereign really.

[kalibr]

Well, Svyatoslav didn’t do that either. He fought like Richard the Lionheart. That is, he was a good military leader. Nobody argues with this.

[Operator]

Charlemagne stomped on the spot of Western Europe, having only Arabs as a serious adversary. And still, all his deeds went to dust - who will now discover the empire of Charles on the map?

Svyatoslav Igorevich razed the huge state of Khazaria (and not disparate West Slavic tribes) to the ground and laid the foundations of the Russian Empire in the form of a general vector for the movement of the Rus. As a result of our "onslaught to the East," we reached a neighboring continent. Well, in order not to get up twice, the western borders of Russia were defended and expanded to the south.

Karl the Great is a pot-bellied trifle compared to Svyatoslav Igorevich.

[Cartalon]

And Alexander the Great nervously smokes on the sidelines.

[Operator]

Alexander the Great created an empire comparable in size to Russian land.

Another thing is that the Macedonian empire collapsed immediately after the death of Alexander. And the state of Svyatoslav Igorevich after his death has expanded its borders several times and to this day is in good health.

In general, it is useful not to forget that the compatriots of Svyatoslav, continuing his work, created by 1914 the largest state in the history of mankind.

Well, it’s also useful to remember that our relatives are antes in the XNUMXth century A.D. completely reformatted the very birthplace of Alexander - Macedonia, which is now Slavic, and not Greek.

[Cartalon]

Svyataslav’s business was the creation of a state centered on the Danube ended in complete failure, to consider the Moscow hierarchy as a continuation of the work of a man who differed from his wars only in a pure shirt absurdity.

[Operator]

It is not a problem to choose a center of the state: for example, Oleg Rurikovich chose Kiev on the border with Khazaria, Ivan Danilovich Kalita chose Moscow on the border with Lithuania, Peter Alekseevich Romanov chose St. Petersburg on the border with Sweden.

The trend, however, is in the sense of the subsequent shift of the border from the center

The Moscow "hierarchy" is an unconditional continuation of the work of Svyatoslav Igorevich for two reasons at once: consanguinity and the method of expansion.

[gringo]

Why such sarcasm

Quote: Cartalon

a man who differed from his wars only in a pure shirt is absurd.

and how did Hitler differ from his warriors? Mustache and one egg? Or Stalin? Handset and accent?

[Weyland]

Quote: Operator

The Macedonian empire collapsed immediately after the death of Alexander.

Exclusively because of the racism of his generals (who, after Alexander’s death, immediately divorced their Persian, Bactrian and Sogdian wives). Not only divorced (Seleucus) - HSCI, not least because of this at least half He grabbed the empire, because for the Persians became his. Thrace was seized by Lysimachus - also solely because he was a Thracian by mother, Ptolemy managed to negotiate with the priests and grabbed Egypt - and the rest got only the original Macedonia with Greece! So the collapse was, but comparable with the collapse of the USSR, not the British Empire: the foundation (the Persian Empire, after deducting several colonies) remained in the same hands!

[Operator]

The main thing is the outcome (the disappearance of the Macedonian empire immediately after the death of the founder).

The state of the Seleucids only did that it was reduced in size (to zero). The state of the Rurikovich expanded in size (up to 1/6 of the Earth’s land).

[Weyland]

Quote: Operator

Charlemagne stomped on a patch of Western Europe

The current France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux - figs piglet! By the population it was at least half Europe

[Operator]

Where in the last 1200 years have you seen a single Frankish state in France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux?

[kalibr]

But for some reason contemporaries did not call Svyatoslav the Great ...

[Operator]

That’s the point - the trifle pot-bellied Karl was Great only in the eyes of the same trifle as the Franks, and the Russians needed something more than the original Russian Land

But seriously - not the prefix for the name colors a person, but the result of his deeds. A striking example is Alexei Mikhailovich Quiet.

[andrew42]

Karl "opened schools"? In the 9th century, hear Carl (!), It turns out your namesake of the school opened! If Pipin’s son opened it, monasteries and episcopates, all his life was preoccupying the Saxons with Christianity, and in general confirmed with the sword the rule of the Vatican in Western Europe for centuries, with all subsequent obscurantism and the degradation of science. No words, Karl is an outstanding politician, cunning, dodgy, unprincipled, with military talent. But in enlighteners to write it down - this is only possible in feverish delirium.

[Weyland]

Generally

Quote: gringo

stopped the expansion of the Arabs

his grandfather Karl Martell.
Rђ RІRѕS,

Quote: gringo

campaigns were aimed at strengthening the position of Russia in trade, mainly

- it is 100% but!
Many forget that chief the result of the victorious campaign of the Prophetic Oleg to Constantinople was obtaining for Russian merchants "most favored nation treatment in trade"

[Cartalon]

Only this campaign was not there, and the contract was advantageous because the empire was tight from the Bulgarian Simeon.

[gringo]

Signs of an empire:
1. Self-sufficiency, independence, vast territories, at the end of the reign of Svyatoslav Russia was self-sufficient and independent, possessed vast territories.
2. Multi-ethnicity. that is, the composition of the empire includes many ethnic entities under the control of a single ethnic, religious or soldered common interests group. Glades, Drevlyans, Vyatichi, Khazars, Yasses, Kasogs, all these peoples were among the inhabitants of Russia.
3. The empire has authoritarian management from one political center. Russia was ruled by the Grand Duke and no one else

[rasteer]

Quote: gringo

Russia was ruled by the Grand Duke and no one else

But you, that it’s true or something, they fought against each other before the Mongol invasion, and the Mongols lost only because each prince issued a decree.
Russia was a confederation of principalities + one republic, however Novgorod became a republic later. In this, by the way, there is its difference from the feudal states of the West where the centralization of power in the hands of kings has already taken place and a vassal system has been built.

[gringo]

During the reign of Svyatoslav, Russia was ruled by Svyatoslav and a group of people tied to him and sitting in Kiev. And none of the vassal princes opened their mouths, everyone went where they said and did not shine.

[rasteer]

During the reign of Svyatoslav, Russia was ruled by Svyatoslav and a group of people tied to him and sitting in Kiev.

Yes, you, that, but for some reason everyone believes that his mother was Olga, and later his son Yaropolk. And Svyatoslav himself always lounged about 2-3 months from the capital, and then if the messenger was not shot. The fact of the matter is that in himself he was a military leader, and his mother Olga ruled, until she began to breed turmoil about the change of religion. And the son began to rule. And "the son is not responsible for the father" the slogan is not mine . So

none of the vassal princes opened their mouths, all went where they said and did not shine.

only a question, and who pointed the way?

[Max golovanovo]

Spanish empire. On May 26, 1135, to reinforce the claim to the position of Spain's strongest monarch, Alfonso VII was crowned in the Leon Cathedral as the emperor of all Spain (Imperator totius Hispaniae).

[cost]

But were the Pechenegs at all blamed for the death of Svyatoslav?
What we have. Record in the annals. According to the Ipatiev list, Svyatoslav with the younger squad was killed by the Pechenegs in 972 on the Dnieper rapids, however, in other lists of the Tale of Bygone Years, for example, Lavrentievsky, there is no such entry. Researchers are alarmed by the omission of such important information by scribes. It is only known for certain that Svyatoslav and his younger squad died in 972 and that the rest of the army, led by Sveneld with rich booty, returned unharmed to Kiev. To Olga's question: - "Where is my son?" , Sveneld replied: - "Do not worry mom, everything is under control, he decided to winter on the island." Gumilyov, for example, directly pointed out that in the removal of Svyatoslav they were primarily interested in Kiev. Remember how the Tale of Bygone Years summarizes the chapter on Svyatoslav? - "So Svyatoslav died. They don’t look for a stranger from their land"

[avva2012]

But were the Pechenegs at all blamed for the death of Svyatoslav?

Option that they were not. About Oleg, there is also a version. that he had a falling out with the sorcerers, went up the mountain, and then they / the sorcerers returned alone, "they say, we don’t know anything, but our prince is dead, the snake bit him"

[cost]

Moreover, by that time Igor, in which Oleg was the regent, had his own squad. Vobschem timely snake drew. And to the objections of people: - "What kind of snakes are on the fig, late autumn is in the yard." The Magi answered: - "There was an emea, we give a tooth, I sat in the skull. By the way, we have warned your Oleg about this for a long time."

[avva2012]

It is good that in those days Freud was not known, otherwise it would have been completely inconvenient. The boys didn’t know what to think.

[rasteer]

These are the correct remarks, and then began "Byzantium, the West, the Masonic conspiracy and the Jews, as always in action" While reading this phrase from Vykkinga, I recalled “And these are the Romans, they are the strongest here, therefore the Pechenegs will not fight with them” and this is in Kiev 2-3 months of sailing from the borders of the empire. Well why not "hand face"

[V.ic]

Not only the Byzantines were interested in eliminating Svyatoslav. According to L.N. Gumilyov, playful little hands to the cause of eliminating the pagan prince were also made by the Christians who lived then in the unbaptized Russia, who carried out the will of Constantinople. And I think that a rich merchant-Khazar layer, which was by no means destroyed during the destruction of Khazaria, also inserted its “five shekels”.

[avva2012]

According to L.N. Gumilyov, playful little hands to the cause of eliminating the pagan prince were also made by the Christians who lived then in the unbaptized Russia, who carried out the will of Constantinople.

A normal civilized life for that / any time. They could calmly set up, that is, tell Kuri where to arrange an ambush. The role of Constantinople, in my opinion, is leading, the Slavs brought serious problems to the empire. And not only them. So the old principle is "divide and conquer." That's just, I do not see global conspiracies against the territory, which, only under Ivan 4, will become an Empire. But, the author is unstoppable, with dashing strokes, has connected the 10th century with I.V. Stalin! That's when these with pace tooth sharpened! It is possible that Leiba Davidovich is a meager from those times. And only the hero in tiger skin, Joseph, tore the ugly sting from the jaws of world Zionism. Khazaria, that’s where the place was hell!

[venaya]

Quote: avva2012

That's just, I do not see global conspiracies against the territory, which only under Ivan 4 will become an Empire

Sorry, but almost the entire territory now nicknamed the Aramaic term "Europe", previously had other names, such as Russia (with various prefixes) Porussia, Venus, etc. After all, even a millennium ago everyone here used various dialects of the Russian language only, Latin appears later, after the "fire and sword" of brutal Christianization (Abrahamic Christianity). Hence the Polish word "church", which in modern English has the meaning - "castle".

[avva2012]

Nick venaya, is it from Venus? Well then, it is clear. Your life is interesting, not boring.

[venaya]

Quote: avva2012

Nick venaya, is it from Venus?

Thanks for the hunch. Venetian names flicker throughout the territory of today's "Europe" (the term is foreign, Aramaic). For some time this territory was simply called “Venetia”, and now, in some ancient languages, the inhabitants of the Russian Federation are still called Venets. You see, successes are already being shown in you in the development of your own knowledge. I hope to continue the trend.

[Curious]

And you can find out what modern England, Scotland, Ireland, Spain with Italy and the Queen Elizabeth Land were called in those days.

[venaya]

Quote: Curious

you can find out what modern England, Scotland, Ireland, Spain and Italy were called in those days

Naturally partially possible. After all, the settlement of the western part of the continent of Assy (As - God) by Rus began at 10-12 thousand years ago. Names have changed somewhat over the course of this time, names are now known at separate intervals, science is developing, although this process is being actively interfered with, for example, today's abrasive discussion.

[rasteer]

After all, the settlement of the western part of the continent of Assiya (As - God)

The damned English women put everything upside down, it’s just like the Jude of Masson conspiracy, they have something that Ass doesn’t mean
Thank you very much for allowing Zadornov and Co. to troll these trusting neopagans.

[venaya]

Quote: rasteer

Damn English women ... they have something that Ass doesn’t mean

And why are you so drawn to the languages ​​of savage islanders? Please recall in what year the English language appeared, because dada Isaac Newton wrote in Latin. Can we still remember the languages ​​of the inhabitants of the islands of Papua New Guinea?

[rasteer]

because dada Isaac Newton wrote in Latin

So Tolstoy Lev Nikolaevich, the Frenchman, liked to pamper in French. God, the Russian language is not even 200 years old ... panic panic who we are

[venaya]

Quote: rasteer

God, there is no Russian language and 200 years

It looks like a serious clinic. The ancestors of the French tribe of the Franks, under the leadership of Prince Meroving, seemed to speak Russian in Russian, and they imposed "Kuchar Latin" much later. In the XNUMXth century, the children of the "northerners" tribe (Normans, foreign) were weaned from their native (Norman) language at school with the help of rods, kneeling in the corner and painfully hit on the heels. That was such a culture and respect for national minorities (more precisely, autochones). Now this "Norman" language is almost completely lost.

[rasteer]

The ancestors of the French tribe of the Franks, led by Prince Meroving seems to speak Russian

This is why such conclusions are, at best, in Aryan, and most likely in Proto-German. And by the way, do not talk to the French about the fact that their ancestors are Franks, but you will taste the strongies of Asterix

In the XNUMXth century, children of the Northerners tribe (Normans, foreign)

Well, only here the northerners, the northerners are different, to call the Normans a tribe and even Slavic is simply to recognize the final victory of the Norman theory of the origin of Russia.

kneeling in the corner and hit painfully on the heels. That was the culture there

And we just have all the wondrous elves and fairies, and they put them on a pea in a corner so that they could feel like princesses

[venaya]

Quote: rasteer

in the best case, in Aryan, and most likely in Proto-German.

Please tell a fairy tale about the Aryan language. The term "Aryan" by the British was taken from Persia in the XNUMXth century, before that it was used. In the language of "Farsi" (Farsi = Parsi = in Russia, or simply Russian, a dialect of the Russian language) and this term means the concept of "farmer." So they called themselves. In Russian, the consonant term "arshin" was used, in the dialect of Russian, in English - "acre". As for the "Old German" - is that what Anenerbo's works have been re-read? The German language emerges in the XNUMXth century on the bases of the Jurassic languages, Latin and Auto-Hochony for those places of the Russian language. Study this topic, in the end, and stop spreading the ravings of German Nazism. Why did you need to call the empire created by the Prussian kingdom the German Empire, when ethnic Russians, well, completely blond, still live in the territory of the former Prussia (formerly Porusia). Think at your leisure and keep Nazi terms with you.

[rasteer]

Well, God bless him with the Aryan mythical, and that’s true the people seem to be there, but he doesn’t have his own language and didn’t have it, it's normal in English. But why didn’t the German tribes please you? Oh yes, I understood everything around Russians. And Hitler was Russian, only hid it. You with your hindrances and pseudo-history in which the history of roofing felts in 15 roofing felts in the 17th century begins completely lost a sense of reality. And do not sculpt me here humpbacked from Germany and Prussia, and without your authoritative opinion it has long been known that Prussia is the land of the Slavs. And you are a victim of scholasticism.

[activator]

Quote: venaya

It looks like a serious clinic. The ancestors of the French tribe of the Franks, under the leadership of Prince Meroving, seem to have spoken Russian in Russian, and they have imposed "Kuchar Latin" on them

And the Swedes, so they generally managed a deplorable speech in Karl 11 in Russian to print in Latin letters, and in which they needed it I reread so many versions. from the supposedly that it was specially written for Russian-speaking subjects to the angels of the Karus.

[Cartalon]

So Russian-speaking subjects were and not in a small number for them and it is written that is not so?

[activator]

Quote: Cartalon

So Russian-speaking subjects were and not in a small number for them and it is written that is not so?

Well, let's say, now let's imagine how many of the Russian-speaking subjects at that time were generally able to read in Russian? and to read this speech it is also necessary to know the Latin letters, which at that time for the majority was generally abrocadabra. Now all the wacky Aglitsky bulls at least understand this, and if for example Russian words are written in Hebrew, or Arabic, then all the hell is spelling what is written there. And also things like pronunciation and spelling if it will be read by the Swede so with his pronunciation of figs that you understand if the Russian-speaking language breaks so, I tried to read in full, wasn’t it easier to get Russian heralds to write a speech in Russian and let everyone read the merits of Karl.

[activator]

People are kind, and what’s going on with the site is to enter into a discussion about how miracles begin. If you want a person to answer, click the corresponding button under the comment and .. you will be thrown into the comments window under the article, and then accordingly to the very bottom of the discussion. Is it glitches on the site or is it a tolerant form of gagging? Moreover, I don’t name Jews, I don’t glorify Bandera I behave as befits an obedient parishioner in accordance with the charters and canons of this parish

[voyaka uh]

"" Ancestors of the French tribe of Franks, led by Prince Meroving
it seems in Russian explained "////

Oops .. and we are sure that in Hebrew. And their noses - at the Franks - you know what
long? - wow! - not at all Russian.


Louis 11 is our man, don’t hang on to the francs!

[rasteer]

Do not stick your noses on the Gali ones)))

[Cartalon]

All bullshit Armenian nose

[Han Tengri]

Quote: voyaka uh

Louis 11 is our man, don’t hang on to the francs!

Well then, you are so pierced! Remember: "Chatterbox is a godsend for a spy!" Shcha MiGovoe Pgovatelstvo will be offended by you, and when you, pre-drowned in the bath, a truck with polonium moves, do not say that you were not warned !!!

[andrew42]

Tochnik. Therefore, the current European languages ​​are ROMANO-Germanic, and not Germano-Romance. Spoiled Latin with local flavor. And what dialects were spoken by the early "Germans", and later "Franks", Bavars and Thuringians - one can only guess. But certainly not bothered in Latin.

[kalibr]

Newton wrote in Latin because he was a scientist. It was the language of learned people. And the process of becoming English was very long. This is the language of the Picts and Saxons, and Norwegian-Danish, used in the Denlo region of Danish law. And each new wave of conquerors brought something of their own to it. And in what language did Chaucer write? His Canterbury tales are written in the so-called "Middle English," but it was also early English. So, not one of the linguists will name the year for you.

[rasteer]

And in what language did Chaucer write?

You ask him who Shakespeare is.

[Rivares]

Quote: rasteer

it’s definitely a Zhidomasson conspiracy, they’re either a little Ass

According to your logic, an ace pilot means a useless pilot, and what a surgeon-ASSIST is and I'm afraid to imagine)))

[rasteer]

Quote: Rivares

According to your logic, an ace pilot means a useless pilot, and what a surgeon-ASSIST is and I'm afraid to imagine)))

ASSIST is a resident of ASSII. Do not try to look for logic where it does not exist. I answered the person who interferes

today's abstraction discussion.

And who did not have English due to the fact that Newton wrote in Latin.
There has long been a lack of a smile "Hand face"

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Rivares

And what is a surgeon-ASSIST and I’m afraid to imagine)))

The proctologist, what is incomprehensible here! )))

[kalibr]

So the data of the haplogroups say that they appeared around 3500 BC. How could they be populated 10-12?

[venaya]

Quote: kalibr

So the data of the haplogroups say that they appeared around 3500 BC

I remind you that only according to the latest Russian calendar the 7525th summer is now, which means that Rus-Rusichs can also be called haplogroup R1a. The calendar in time corresponds to the development of both the "Tripoli culture" and a similar culture in the territory of modern China. So, to consider the appearance of Rus with the formation of the haplogroup R1a1 is not sufficiently legitimate. In addition, A. Klyosov also defines Russian genetics as the female haplogroup "H" of the female "X" chromosome. This is his personal definition of nationality in two ways. If we take into account research in the field of linguistics, where Klyosov is not strong, then the origin of the ethnic group of the Rus can be considered even more ancient. Today, the appearance of people of the haplogroup R1a in the west of our continent is estimated at 10-12 thousand years. hence this figure.

[Operator]

Quote: kalibr

How could they be populated 10-12?

Venaya is right in this matter: arias - carriers of the haplogroup R1a separated from the ancestral haplogroup R1 22000 years ago in the Altai region. Over 10000 years, they reached Europe (the Balkans) and settled on it (Southern, Central and Eastern Europe). The greatest distribution of Aryans to the North is the area of ​​the Karelian Isthmus 9000 years ago.

5500 years ago, almost all the Aryans were forced out to Eastern Europe from Central and Southern Europe by the Celts - carriers of the related haplogroup R1b, advancing from Western Europe (where they entered via Gibraltar).

Eastern Europe has forever become a center for the resettlement of Aryans - to India, Iran, Asia Minor, Central and Southern Europe (secondary settlement by crowding out the Celts), Siberia and the Far East (nowadays).

[andrew42]

Well, not really R1a-Ashniks from Central Europe were kicked out. Roughly speaking, they pushed for the Rhine, and then pressed to the Elbe.

[Max golovanovo]

Colleague, I beg you: do not argue with active Chudinovites.

[alatanas]

Bo[/ b] rus [b]Oia - Dortmund for example

[Weyland]

Quote: avva2012

They could calmly substitute, i.e., tell Kuri where to ambush

Where to arrange an ambush, Smoking himself knew - it just lasted, this confrontation a few months - and help from Kiev to Svyatoslav did not fit! For too many he got sick of it!

[Kenneth]

Just everyone participated. And the Jews are to blame again
Better tell me what a fright Sveneld abandoned his prince. He then most of all gained from the death of Svyatoslav.

[Weyland]

Quote: V.ic

Christians who lived then in still not baptized Russia, fulfilling the will of Constantinople

But where does the will of Constantinople? Svyatoslav after Dorostol in his army interrupted all Christians (including brother Gleb) and publicly promised to return to Russia and cut there all Christians - so they would be idiots if they did not try to eliminate it!

[Cartalon]

A rare nonsense, Byzantium turns west.

[rasteer]

A rare nonsense, Byzantium turns west.

Of course, if you approach her from the east

[Army soldier2]

In everything you need to look for a reason. If the parents of venaya would hit me painfully on their heels, kneeling in the corner, like in the 20th century the children of the "northerners" tribe, he would listen in good faith what the history teacher tells him. And we would be freed from the results of his scientific research.

[Cartalon]

And if you can sail north from Ebipet, and the north is Russia, Svyatoslav means that there were legal rights to Constantinople, so here you can find mono rights to Ethiopia

[Monster_Fat]

There is such a film "Khan Asparuh" produced in the 80s about the struggle of the Bulgarians for their statehood. In my opinion, the film is not even bad, especially music and battle scenes (for those times). Russian, living in the forests on the outskirts, there are shown as fragmented tribes at a primitive level of development which the Bulgarians, they say, taught everything ....

[Operator]

If you ignore the primitiveness of showing local Antes and Thracians in the film, the main film "Khan Asparuh" is right - the nomadic Bulgarian tribe from the Volga region (carriers of the Celtic haplogroup R1b mixed with the Mongol C2) laid the foundation of the Bulgarian state.

The main haplogroup of modern Bulgarians is the Hamitic E1 (heritage of the Thracians), the same as their neighbors in the Balkans of the Greeks, Macedonians and Albanians.

[Nagaibak]

I don’t know where the Celts with the Mongols are.))) But the Türks are not a question.
"Bulgars, Bulgarians (lat. Bulgares, Greek Βoύλγαρoί, Bulgarian. Prabulgari, proto-Bulgari, Tat. Bolğarlar, Chuvash. Pulkharsem, balcony. Malkyar.) - Turkic tribes [1], who inhabited the northern part of the Caspian and the Northern Caspian up to the North Caspian Sea The Caucasus and migrated in the 2nd half of the VII century, partly in the Danube, and later in the Middle Volga and several other regions.
Participated in the ethnogenesis of modern peoples such as Bulgarians, Macedonians, Tatars, Chuvashs, Bashkirs [2] [3], Balkars and Karachays. They transferred their name to the state of Bulgaria. In modern historiography, the terms protobolgars, prabolgars, ancient Bulgarians are also used. "

[Operator]

Bulgars are Türks only by language, by “blood”, that is, by the haplotype, they are Celts mixed with Mongols (dominant haplogroup R1b, minor haplogroup C2).

The composition of the Turkic-speaking peoples includes ethnic groups of different "blood" types:
Northern Semites (J2 - Khazars, Turks, Kurds, Uzbeks, Crimean Tatars);
Mongols (C2 - actually the Mongols, Kazakhs, Kalmyks, Buryats);
arias (R1a - Kyrgyz, Tatars);
ugrofinns (N1c - Yakuts, Tuvans, Chuvashs);
Celts (R1b - Bulgars, Turkmen, Bashkirs).

[ukoft]

By the way, the Turks really do not have the main gene. This is more cultural community obtained. This is probably the only large language family without a dominant gene. Look, the Malaysian Turks are the blood of the Romans, Armenians, Semites and Greeks basically. Tatars for a third of the ugrofin a third of the Slavs. Uzbeks are also mixed up, like Kazakhs. Of all the large Turkic peoples, the Kirghiz p1a and the Bashkirs p1b are less homogeneous.

[Operator]

Asia Minor Turks - 35% northern Semites J2 (the rest are Aryans, Celts, Mongols, etc.), Tatars 40% arias R1a (the rest are Mongols, ugrofins, etc.), Uzbeks 35% Northern Semites J2 (the rest are Mongols, Celts, Arias, etc.), Kazakhs are 35% Mongols C2 (the rest are Caucasians, Northern Semites, Celts, Arians, etc.), the Kyrgyzs are 55% arias R1a (the rest are Mongols, Northern Semites, etc.), Bashkirs are 40% R1b Celts (the rest are Aryans, ugrofin, etc.).

Armenians are 40% Caucasians (the rest are Celts, Northern Semites, etc.), Greeks are 30% Hamites E (the rest are Northern Semites, Illyrians, Celts, Arians, etc.).

[Nagaibak]

The operator "Asia Minor Turks - 35% Northern Semites J2 (the rest are Aryans, Celts, Mongols, etc.), Tatars 40% Arias R1a (the rest are Mongols, ugrofins, etc.), Uzbeks are 35% Northern Semites J2 (the rest are Mongols, Celts, Arias, etc.), Kazakhs are 35% Mongols C2 (the rest are Caucasians, Northern Semites, Celts, Arias, etc.), the Kyrgyz are 55% of R1a Arias (the rest is Mongols, Northern Semites, etc.), Bashkirs are 40% of the R1b Celts (the rest are Arians, Ugro-Finns, etc.).
Armenians are 40% Caucasians (the rest are Celts, Northern Semites, etc.), Greeks are 30% Hamites E (the rest are Northern Semites, Illyrians, Celts, Arians, etc.). "
Well, yes ... well, yes)))) And why don’t you give a link from where such interesting tsifiri.))) A new training manual, did it come out? Secret?)))

[Operator]

Type in the search line of Yandex or Google the "haplogroup of Turks" (Tatars, Armenians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, etc.), select the option "Pictures" (in order not to study texts), click the "Search" button and you will be happy

[Nagaibak]

The operator "Type in the search line of Yandex or Google the" haplogroup of Turks "(Tatars, Armenians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, etc.), select the option" Pictures "(in order not to study texts), click the" Search "button and it will be Happiness to you. "

Pictures are good.))) But I need a book or a solid article that you can read. It is desirable that a person with a scientific degree would write it. And not some kind of sick follower of the fomen.))) Here I am talking about. If you say something ... then I personally have few pictures, and texts from the Genicological))) forums are also few. I need a link to the scientific work Vol. No. No. Publishing House such a Academy of Sciences of the Russian Federation a year so many sheets))), etc.

[Operator]

For God's sake, your needs are your problems

[Nagaibak]

Operator "For God's sake, your needs are your problems."
Well, yes hehehehe who would doubt it.))) Do not support your conclusions with serious documents, it means that you are broadcasting complete nonsense not worthy of attention.))) No offense.)))

[rasteer]

Quote: Nagaibak

And why don’t bring a reference from where so entertaining numbers

Yes, this is the same “Operator” for you, he’s a reference himself, he will look into your eyes and everything can be printed out. For him, human behavior is predetermined by halo groups

[Weyland]

Quote: Operator

Hamitic E1 (heritage of the Thracians),

With what joy? The Thracians came from the north and were most likely Erbins - and E1 came to Bulgaria from the Greeks, and to those from the Egyptians! Comparing the probable time of expansion of E1 to Europe with the time of the mess between Egypt and the Danube, it seems that myths have a real basis. By the way, Hercules (a descendant of Danae along the line of Perseus) was nicknamed Melamspig ("chernozhy ..") clearly not for a truly Aryan appearance!

[Operator]

According to testing of bone remains from graves of 6-8 millennium BC. the first postglacial inhabitants of the southern Black Sea region, the Balkans, the island of Crete, the south of the Apennine peninsula, Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, the southern and western coasts of Asia Minor, Lebanon, Palestine and North Africa were hamites - carriers of haplogroup E.

Those. in Thrace and to the north of it there were also Hamites, who in the 5th millennium BC. began to be forced out of these areas by the Illyrians, Aryans, Celts and Semites.

At present, the direct European descendants of the Hamites have survived at a dominant level only among the Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Sardinians and Maltese. Of these, the only native speakers of the Hamite group are Albanians.

[ukoft]

like such research of the remains in those parts was not. the most remaining mummies are the pharaohs - 2000 BC Tarim, due to the dry climate, in the mountains and permafrost, the Incas, Altai, Alps, but they all seem to be no earlier than 2000 BC

[Operator]

The oldest bone remains (teeth) tested on the Y chromosome in Europe are currently Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal with an age of 40-50 thousand years ago. But their haplotype is not fully deciphered.

The first fully decoded haplotypes (from the point of view of determining the haplogroup) were found in the burials of the Illyrians (20-25 thousand years ago).

The longest haplotype technically deciphered in modern humans is 111 unique marks in the Y chromosome (for determining paternity). To determine the haplogroup, about 7 marks are sufficient.

[ukoft]

there maybe a few chromosomes and saw, but no more. Ilyrians for 20 thousand years. if you can link. it is interesting to me

[Operator]

If I find, I will inform you.

As far as I remember, this information was in an article on the so-called glacial shelters of Europe and the survival of the Illyrians there in the Lesser Ice Age (since traces of Illyrians in neighboring Asia Minor were not found, unlike their Semitic relatives in the ancestral haplogroup IJ).

[Operator]

Testing scheme of bones of people to determine their haplogroups indicating the places and time of burial of the remains


http://pereformat.ru/2017/03/chto-novogo-o-vyhode
-iz-afriki-1 /

[parusnik]

The Romans occupied the main cities, renamed them, humiliated the Bulgarians and deprived them of statehood.

..In 968, the Kiev prince Svyatoslav, was an ally of the Byzantine emperor Nicephorus Foki, and occupied the north-eastern part of Bulgaria. But the successes of the Russians aroused fears of Nicephorus. It was almost at the instigation of the Greeks that the Pechenegs attacked Kiev in 969, which forced Svyatoslav to return to Kiev and repel the attack. In December 969, Nikifor was killed in his own palace by John Tzimiskes and Svyatoslav made an alliance with the Bulgarian prince Boris II. The Byzantine Emperor John Tzimiskes captured Tsar Boris and established control over the north-eastern regions of Bulgaria. But Tsar Samuel managed to return most of the territory of Bulgaria, after his death in 1014, Bulgaria was conquered by Byzantium. In 1018, the First Bulgarian Kingdom fell. And the Byzantine emperor Vasily Bolgaroboyets put an end to the independence of Bulgaria. The Bulgarian church was subordinate to the Patriarch of Constantinople, many noble families were resettled in the Asian part of the empire. The Bulgarians repeatedly revolted against Byzantium - the rebellion of Peter Delyan in 1040-41, Konstantin Bodin in 1072, but they were all crushed.

[avva2012]

Here, it’s interesting to read. Nothing more, true "boring", without a twist Where are the parallels with modern Bulgaria, where is the connection between Byzantium, Khazaria and the fact that the Bulgarians fought against us twice? You do not have a flight of fancy, one logic.

[venaya]

Quote: avva2012

Here, it’s interesting to read. Nothing more, true "boring", without a twist

I see you are interested in topics in which you are at least a little versed, and if something a little more complicated, then there is an indescribable non-perception of everything new. A familiar phenomenon from psychology. I hope a little and you will be able to enlighten in topics in which many more swim, while even too many. We will work on the further development of enlightenment, "the gods did not burn the pots," I hope for a gradual increase in the level of knowledge of the readers here.

[avva2012]

Quote: venaya Familiar phenomenon from psychology. I hope a little and you will be able to enlighten in topics in which many more swim, while even too many. We will work on the further development of enlightenment, "the gods did not burn the pots," I hope for a gradual increase in the level of knowledge of the readers here.

Are you interested in psychology? And what is philosophical intoxication, you know?

[rasteer]

and if something a little more complicated,

More complicated is how? The Khazars are descendants of the reptilians and therefore wore a snake on the flag. Or the Pechenegs ate the liver of the enemies because they were called that. And yes, Svyatoslav forgot this is one of the incarnations of Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Stalin, I read somewhere I remember such an opus.

[Max golovanovo]

Most likely - Nekhushtan - the brass serpent of Moses.

[Cartalon]

Peter is not the topic he has a worship of the West ((

[Alikos]

Quote: parusnik

The Romans occupied the main cities, renamed them, humiliated the Bulgarians and deprived them of statehood.

..In 968, the Kiev prince Svyatoslav, was an ally of the Byzantine emperor Nicephorus Foki, and occupied the north-eastern part of Bulgaria. But the successes of the Russians aroused fears of Nicephorus. It was almost at the instigation of the Greeks that the Pechenegs attacked Kiev in 969, which forced Svyatoslav to return to Kiev and repel the attack. In December 969, Nikifor was killed in his own palace by John Tzimiskes and Svyatoslav made an alliance with the Bulgarian prince Boris II. The Byzantine Emperor John Tzimiskes captured Tsar Boris and established control over the north-eastern regions of Bulgaria. But Tsar Samuel managed to return most of the territory of Bulgaria, after his death in 1014, Bulgaria was conquered by Byzantium. In 1018, the First Bulgarian Kingdom fell. And the Byzantine emperor Vasily Bolgaroboyets put an end to the independence of Bulgaria. The Bulgarian church was subordinate to the Patriarch of Constantinople, many noble families were resettled in the Asian part of the empire. The Bulgarians repeatedly revolted against Byzantium - the rebellion of Peter Delyan in 1040-41, Konstantin Bodin in 1072, but they were all crushed.

And then Samuel ...

[Maegrom]

I started reading:
The topic is interesting, the beginning is sources, well, but then such a flight of fancy under the tag "obviously the same", - I lost my time in vain ((

[alebor]

In general, the greatness of one ruler or another is determined by which state he inherited and which he left to his descendants. If the country has become larger, richer, stronger, then the ruler is good. If much stronger, much richer, much more - then great. What did Svyatoslav leave behind him besides the glory of a desperate warrior? His Bulgarian conquests were lost, Russia did not gain a foothold in the Khazaria, as a result of which hands were untied for the nomads from the east, first the Pechenegs, and then the Polovtsy. In a word, Russia, from the ebullient activities of Svyatoslav, received nothing good and attributing this ruler to the great ones is a clear exaggeration.
And also a very strange statement by A. Samsonov regarding the intrigues of Byzantium: "These principles of the policy of the rulers of the West have been unchanged for more than a thousand years. Westerners rewrite history in their interests, turn black into white and white into black." -That is, it turns out, Byzantium was also already part of the evil West? But what about the Arabs or the Chinese, if in their chronicles there is something that does not suit Samsonov, he will also classify them with the West?

[venaya]

Quote: alebor

But what about the Arabs or the Chinese, if in their chronicles there is something that does not suit Samsonov, he will also classify them with the West?

Indeed, in this case, you really guessed: the bulk of Chinese historical texts were compiled by French semi-religious organizations. As for the Arabic texts, the situation is similar, the texts were translated into French into Arabic and not otherwise, these studies are also available. As for the Chinese writing: in China there are at least 130 peoples with their own languages, really more. And all nations read the same text in their own language, not understanding each other in a mustache. Similar to Chinese characters were also used in Korea, Japan and Vietnam. Who, what kind of people created this writing, take an interest on your own, but it’s not difficult to guess because the word China also has Russian-speaking roots. There are not fake Chinese texts, it’s not possible to determine which specific people wrote them by definition, much less learn the ancient phonetics of words.

[kalibr]

That would be all at the Institute of Oriental Studies of the RAS ...

[sibirak10]

It seems that Fomenko got to the Chinese language ...

[Han Tengri]

In my opinion, for today, it’s easier to list already, what Fomenko and accomplice Nosovsky did not get to.

[Cartalon]

In short, besides Russian other peoples, it does not exist

[rasteer]

What did Svyatoslav leave behind him besides the glory of a desperate warrior?

All princes before Vladimir were atamans rather than statesmen.

Russia did not gain a foothold in Khazaria

But at the same time, Khazaria did not become a strong Islamic state. Moreover, after the campaign of Vladimir even paid tribute to Russia. So here it is not so simple. In other matters, it’s difficult to talk about the goals pursued by Svyatoslav while fighting with Khazaria, Bulgaria and Byzantium, and there are big suspicions that these were Viking-style raids in search of “gold and glory”.

[sibirak10]

Khazaria and could not become a strong Islamic state, the Khazarian elite professed Judaism.

[rasteer]

Khazaria and could not become a strong Islamic state, the Khazarian elite professed Judaism.

I confess I do not argue. but actively began to move towards Islam, because of its geographical location. The defeat of her by Svyatoslav led to the fact that in exchange for support from Khorezm, the remnants of the elite converted to Islam. So perhaps it would not have become an Islamic state, but it gradually became a part of the Islamic world.

[ukoft]

It seems like the Khazars fought with the Muslims and stopped the advance of the latter in this direction. And in any way the Khazars finished off numerous steppe hordes. It was always uneasy there. Few could last long in the steppe. Would they accept Islam or another religion, the Pechenegs and Polovtsy violet

[rasteer]

It seems like the Khazars fought with the Muslims and stopped the advance of the latter in this direction.

Yes, they fought with the Arabs, but for a long time they were restrained by various methods of nomads, someone was taken under their roof like Hungarians, for example, someone was beaten, someone was allowed to go further to the west. And they fought with Byzantium. But in the 10th century the situation was such that all sedentary neighbors except Rus and Byzantium converted to Islam, while Russia began to put pressure on Khazaria more and more, entering into alliances with nomads of the Dnieper steppes. Well, after the defeat of Khazaria by Svyatoslav, it was reborn already under the banner of Islam, albeit not for long.

[Weyland]

Quote: alebor

If the country has become larger, richer, stronger, then the ruler is good. If much stronger, much richer, much more - then great

By this criterion, Alexander the Great is never the Great!
In a word, Macedonia did not get anything good from Alexander’s ebullient activity, and attributing this ruler to the great is a clear exaggeration.

[Lutoyar]

1 of the greatest warriors and rulers of Russia. How his name was not hushed up, they still remember. Eternal Glory to Svyatoslav Horobrom!

[kalibr]

Quote: Lutoyar

ak did not keep silent about his name, but still remember

And who did this? What book on the history of the USSR and the Russian Federation you will not open or the Avant encyclopedia for children ... is it everywhere? Where exactly did they try to shut him up?

[Curious]

Vyacheslav Olegovich! I understand that you decided to continue the glorious traditions of such worthy people as Alzheimer, Gannushkin, Kashchenko and help the suffering.

[Mikado]

thankless thing. “Good deeds cannot be glorified” (old woman Shapoklyak).

[kalibr]

No, it was just free time. He looked ... was surprised again and the hand itself reached for the keyboard. Teaching, you know, habits. Intractable ...

[Curious]

It’s interesting why in this case Serbsky’s hand reached out, he also gave lectures to students.

[Mikado]

I wonder why in this case the Serbian hand reached out

I remember that at the end of the 19th century lobotomy was popular to calm especially violent. I venture to suggest: to the candelabrum? or what is heavier?

[Curious]

What do you? Vladimir Petrovich was a very humane person. In such cases, it is widely recommended work and entertainment in the fresh air. He did not approve of such barbaric methods. But clysters with various fillers as a therapeutic agent were also popular at the beginning of the 20th century.

[ukoft]

Khazar defeated, in alliance with the Pechenegs. Without the Pechenegs, like them, without Rus, they would have been able to. The role of the Pechenegs is underestimated. As such, the merchant class was not in Russia at that time. the level of development was not the same. The tax in the form of a furry animal from the Slavic tribes was sold by enterprising Varangians to foreign merchants. They also traded in slaves, whom the Vikings took with a living tax from Slavic tribes. Fur and slaves were the main export commodities of the then Russia. And the rulers at that time in all states of a similar level of development were more like gopniks and robbers. Campaigns were organized primarily due to the extraction and elimination of competitors. History needs to know what it is and get rid of the complexes. There the British do not complex about the Norman conquest and write as is

[Curious]

And no one understates. In the history of Ancient Russia, the nomad tribes - the Pechenegs - remained as brutal barbarians and a destroyer, as well as participants in the princely interstitials. In 972, Prince Svyatoslav was killed by them at the Dnieper rapids.

[ukoft]

At that time they were all barbarians, Varangians too. For all its development, Byzantium was very cruel to opponents. How they gouged out the eyes of the Bulgarian wars. It would be better to kill. But they acted nevertheless more systematically and looked ahead. Otherwise, they would not have survived so many raids by all kinds of barbarians. The same Pechenegs were slaughtered all together with women, children and the elderly, so that the Polovtsy were still frightened by the bandits and forgetting about the promise the Byzantines fled, although they were among the winners

[Curious]

Everything is in accordance with the then science, ethics, morality.
“But since the devil, the original destroyer of man and an enemy of our family, in accordance with his nature and as a result of irreparable human error taught people to fight with each other, it turned out to be absolutely necessary to use all sorts of tricks in the war against others and to ensure that nations involuntarily involved in the war, it was not easy to defeat, but with the help and through military scientific knowledge to ensure their salvation and help them, on the one hand, protect themselves from the enemies that attacked them, and on the other hand, to inflict these and to the enemies such sufferings that they deserve that everyone who was the first to do evil should be exterminated, and a world that is saving for all, which everyone longs for and for the benefit of which participate in the solution of state affairs, should be destroyed. "
The tactics of Leo is a Byzantine military treatise compiled by Emperor Leo VI (886–912) around 905 and devoted to the strategy and tactics of the Byzantine army and navy.

[ukoft]

Yeah, we were lucky not to be born at a time when a person’s life was worth less than a horse’s life, although not so long ago, in the Second World War, the civilized Germans, so to speak, were no worse. We tried. And in general, only retaliation restrained the nuclear strike with the complete destruction of the opponent’s population. One of the parties would probably take the opportunity. Not so far we went from our ancestors in cruelty.

[Catherine II]

Quote: ukoft

The same Pechenegs were cut out all together

Yes, normal practice in humans (from primates) is the genocide of the enemy. Thanks to him, we are what we are. All the rest are not on this planet. Over the rest we (humanity) are working in the same direction.

[Kenneth]

By the way, the Bulgarians also went to rob in the campaign with the Pechenegs

[ukoft]

In a word, bros, when mutually beneficial cooperation loomed, who will remember the old in the eye. At the same time, after a year, if the benefit in another could have set fire to the partner's hut. Their leaders were very primitive. There is a difference in the politics of the Byzantine Empire. Their diplomacy is really imperial. By the way, the Chinese and Romans also acted. Education is education. And only rare leaders did not go on the occasion, the majority for good gifts solved the tasks of the empire. True, for the benefit of their own in the near future, but only in the near

[Weyland]

Quote: ukoft

As such, the merchant class was not in Russia at that time. the level of development was not the same

Hello! Prophetic Oleg for what reason made a trip to Constantinople, to remind?

[ukoft]

selling fur and slaves who were taken with a population tax is not a resale characteristic of merchants, but the sale of their goods. also transit to the Baltic by river. maybe some duties canceled. but they were not professional merchants. always a sword or ax was at hand.

[rasteer]

but they were not professional merchants. always a sword or ax at hand was

So the Scandinavians kept a sword at hand, and the Arabs sabers. Times were like that, an unarmed merchant, a dead merchant. I do not believe in the absence of merchants in Russia, for a simple reason, the place was too successful, you could buy grain in Kiev, take it to Novgorod, sell it, buy furs and gifts of the northern seas and bring it back, all without leaving Kievan Rus. Well, our ancestors couldn’t be so stupid as to give such a freebie to foreigners.

[ukoft]

sort of like the bulk lived in subsistence farming. they extracted and did everything they needed. money is also unnecessary therefore. the elite needs bills of luxury goods and more. they took it by raids or even more by selling furs and slaves. but these were not professional merchants but warrior merchants themselves, under the auspices and roof of their prince. the wrong prince went in and got your head chopped off. a significant class of artisans and merchants will appear later, somewhere in 100 years. and this time the cities were more the stakes of princes, tribal leaders and centers of cultural life of the tribes, where small fairs were held for the holidays and the assembly was going.

[rasteer]

sort of like the bulk lived in subsistence farming.

Of course, it was just like that, say, Northern Russia could not provide itself with bread, but, unlike the Komi and Mansi, it wanted, and in Southern Russia there was not enough wood and hemp. Trade didn’t appear out of the blue, yes, for a primitive existence there are enough farming natures, but when you have good flax growth and poor wheat, and your neighbor has the opposite, it makes sense to start an exchange.

cities were more the stakes of princes, tribal leaders and centers of cultural life of the tribes, where small fairs were held for the holidays

And how does this interfere with the emergence of merchants? Cities in Russia, unlike Europe, were and have remained national centers throughout the Middle Ages due to the state hierarchy different from Western Europe. We were not allocated land, but a place at the prince’s table. And still unfortunately so, everyone fights for a place closer to the king.

[ukoft]

in those days, northern Russia provided itself with bread itself. what you say later went. and the forest and hemp to the south didn’t seem to be sent much later. its enough. was a subsistence economy.

does not interfere with the appearance, but it is only emerging. thanks to high-productivity agriculture, artisans are settling in, settling in cities, but this process was just beginning. it is easier for peasants to buy a shirt in the city than to sew themselves and collect flax with nettles. They concentrate on one crop, some of which are wheat and other cereals, some are flax, some are chopping wood. that's just all mined, because there were no large deposits

[ukoft]

the Scandinavians also had no professional merchants. there were warriors and part-time merchants then. the Arabs had.

[rasteer]

I don’t understand what you are arguing with. Yes, a warrior-merchant or a merchant-warrior to whom as dearer a very noble occupation for those times.

[ukoft]

I do not argue, I share my thoughts. who do not claim to be true. I just love history and weapons.
and now thinking: merchants it is like a professional occupation, just as the craft was not very developed then. for example, a peasant could also craft, but was not a craftsman. also the Varangians.
the level of development was not the same. for merchants and trade order and laws are needed. so that no one touches. fight off different rogues when your caravan is big hard. no matter what barbaric state it has always tried to ensure the security of trade. This is a profitable business. and so in the 9th century there was no merchants as an "estate". could collect tribute and sail to Constantinople to sell fur and slaves. I hope it is accessible

[ukoft]

so finish it. wise rulers, unlike the aforementioned, promulgated laws; adopted new religions in the interests of modernity and so on. Vladimir for example. and our hero is a warrior

[rasteer]

wise rulers, unlike the aforementioned,

So I don’t argue that before Vladimir Rurikovich they were more likely military leaders than rulers, that's why Princess Olga remained in her memory, her husband and son always hung around somewhere on Proubezhye.

[rasteer]

for merchants and trade order and laws are needed. so that no one touches. fight off different rogues when your caravan is big hard.

and so in the 9th century there was no merchants as an "estate".

That is, based on your logic, merchants appeared no earlier than the 15th and 16th centuries, but forgive me for the way "From the Varangians to the Greeks" and "The Great Silk Road" if this is not just a trail from China to Europe.

[ukoft]

why so. the Arabs had merchants. were in antiquity. in Russia went somewhere since the 12th century, sort of like. then a layer of craftsmen and merchants became so significant. the people became calmer, Christian morality.

[Catherine II]

Quote: rasteer

Times were like this, an unarmed merchant, a dead merchant

pirates were both merchants and pirates, and even hired to serve. It all depends on the possibility.
Merchant ships for a long time were both pirates (if the extraction was worth it even weaker) and merchants. And the pirates themselves traded well.

[Cartalon]

By the way, it was recalled that in the Arabian chronicles the campaigns of the Rusov to Andalusia are mentioned, which is clearly the case in Spain, but academician Rybakov did not like this because it did not fit into his theory that the Russians are roofing felts from the river Rus toli from Assy which Iasi originate from. So he came up with the idea that in addition to Andalusia in Spain, Andalusia was in Asia Minor and joyfully somewhere in the Trapenzuda region he painted and didn’t care for the brooms that it was Byzantine territory, so that Mr. Samsonov and other whistleblowers have something to work on, you can also go there - drag here on the map.

[Kenneth]

Academician Rybakov, by the way, a historian politicized too much. Like Tarle. He wrote as part of the direction of the wind with the current manual. Although of course it is worth reading. He wrote very fascinatingly and of course is the founder of a scientific school and a great authority on the issue.

[ukoft]

It was like that, only these Vikings came from the West. In northern Spain, a gesheft was snatched from the local sweat in a southern bed. It also seems to have reached Provence. Robbed where it was easier

[Weyland]

Quote: Cartalon

Academician Rybakov did not like this because it did not fit into his theory that the Russians are roofing felts from the river. The roofing felts are from Assy which Iasi originate from.

And how does this contradict his theory? Ases, they are yasas, they are Alans - and Catalonia = Goto-Alania. By the way, the Bourbon clan has an “Ossetian” haplogroup G.

[Operator]

Haplagroup G is called Caucasian. Most common among Circassians and Ossetians (up to 80%). It is dominant among Armenians and Georgians (up to 40%).

In addition to the Caucasus, G carriers mainly live in the highlands of the Pamirs, the Alps and the Pyrenees. With the exception of this rule, G carriers make up the majority of one of the six Kazakh tribes - Argyns.

Bourbon Haplogroup - Celtic R1b.

[ukoft]

they decided to scoot across the steppe, left the mountains, and then the next steppe wind blew, which drove many peoples here, and the argyns appeared in Kazakhstan. one of the main tribes of the Kazakhs by the way. or which conqueror forcibly overpowered them.
by the way, the kasogi lived on the northern coast of the Caucasus; the temirlan defeated them like many then. maybe they relocated them? a strong kind of tribe was

[Operator]

Everything is much more prosaic - the so-called Caucasian haplogroup G has a concentration of its carriers, including in the Caucasus and the Pamirs. Like any other haplogroup, G at the very beginning belonged first to one carrier, then to its genus, then to one tribe, and only then it began to settle.

During the resettlement process, part of the carriers G did not reach either the Pamirs or the Caucasus and became steppes.

[ukoft]

But was the goal to reach the mountains? usually in the mountains remain or hide the remains of the defeated and defeated.
maybe this group lived in such a large space and p1a came and carried them out, or maybe they just decided to move for some climatic or other reasons, and as always, someone stayed.

[Operator]

The carriers of haplogroup G have a peculiarity - unlike carriers of other haplogroups (settled regardless of the terrain), for some reason, they are concentrated in the mountains (Pamir, Caucasus, Alps, Pyrenees).

[Weyland]

Quote: Operator

for some reason they are concentrated in the mountains

Yeah ... especially the Argyns and the ancient Irish.

[Operator]

Do you understand the term "concentration" and its difference from the term "resettlement"?

[Weyland]

Quote: Operator

Bourbon Haplogroup - Celtic R1b.

proof, pliz? If there was R1b, there would be nothing surprising - in Navarre there are erbins, IMHO, 80 percent! That's interesting that they have exactly G!
By the way, G prevailed about 45 centuries ago already in Ireland - and then erbines came from the south and, as usual, genocide them in full:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/genetic-ancestry/g
uff_documents / Genocide_in_Ireland.pdf
Well, the Cro-Magnons (I2) in Europe after the invasion of the Erbins survived only a few hundred ...

[Operator]

Offhand

About the DNA of the Capetian, Napoleon and the descendants of the Ötzi (Tyrolean ice man). October 17, 2013

https://verenich.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/%D0%BE-
%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%BA-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%82
%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BF
%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%B8-%D0%B
F%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%85-o/

By the way, the monarch’s haplotype is not an indicator of the dominant haplotype of his subjects in connection with the widespread adultery, dynastic marriages, invitations of candidates for the throne from abroad, etc.

It is likely that some branches of the most numerous European monarchy house of the Bourbons have haplogroups different from the Celtic R1b, including and Caucasian G, which has a local maximum in the Alps and the Pyrenees.

[Kenneth]

The author’s style is especially helpful in inserting into the text remarks that they say that someone is against this opus the enemy ..., a bad person and a supporter of the West. Therefore, I liked the text and in general I am for Svyatoslav if that.

[Cartalon]

activator,
So they read Russian in Latin letters, people who knew the Latin alphabet and did not know the Russian language, and indeed the Swedes did not have a printing house with a Cyrillic alphabet.

[ukoft]

In general, the site is in, let's discuss the type of troops of those times. They haven’t become a friend yet, there are no cavalry, more Vikings are infantry, in fact professionals are like mercenaries, they make profit from raids on neighbors, but the significant difference is that overlords (not a prince yet) feed them from their allotment, sort of your table. One vigilantes so persuaded to collect more agreed upon with subjects than it ended is known. At the same time, citizens are more of a militia that did not participate in raids and showdowns. But in which case it could have piled on anyone. The relationship between overlord and the army type fraternal. Criminal brothers probably look like them. Work them below the honor, trade, too. In this, unlike the Scandinavians, they cultivated and traded and engaged in crafts. These, like many of their fellow tribesmen, became professional soldiers. While their relatives in England or Normandy began to work on the land. Scandinavian weapons and ammunition. Quality has become worse in comparison with the late Middle Ages. They took professionalism and physics.

[Cartalon]

did not trade contracts with the Romans on trade basically

[ukoft]

By the way, yes, I agree. Varangians were enterprising people. First of all, they traded, then if they saw that you can take it even without trade, they could have stated so ... but maybe not professional, but still they were trading.

[Kenneth]

They have already become a friend. Cavalry is also good, because you need to fight with the horse Khazars and Pechenegs. Citizens are not a militia but contingents allocated on a long-term basis. Because in the case of Polyudia, a militia cannot be assembled quickly. Horseradish will come. Most likely combined service with trade. Rather, in terms of protection, because the way from the Varangians to the Greeks fed no less than Polyates. The weapons and ammunition are Roman, their own and less Scandinavian. Scandinavians from Europe dragged, theirs was not very. And in Russia there is no reason not to develop the production of weapons. What took, by the way, a question. Of course the squad were pros, plus the pros Scandinavian mercenaries. But their own could have gathered a large crowd. Not for nothing, after Svyatoslav poured in Dorostol and stood up to feed the Roma, they gave him more than 20 thousand food consumers.

[ukoft]

As for the cavalry, it seems like under Svyatoslav they only moved along the rivers and with the Byzantines did they mention the cavalry? And it seems to me that nothing else was taken from local tribes except taxes. Krivichi, Drevlyane, Polyana more than themselves associated with their tribe, and proto-workers were mainly Varangians. Still aliens, ties with Scandinavia were great and there was always an influx of gentlemen of fortune from there. This distinguishes the raids of the Rus from the colonization of the Balkans by the southern Slavs, who reached Greece, crowding out the natives and the empire further south. And cavalry is other Pecheneg robbers and others. Swamp ores, the abundance of forests, especially birch, which is good for charcoal, made it possible to produce enough iron, but then they could not raise high temperatures, since it seems that they still did not use bellows for blowing air into the furnace

[ukoft]

So what feature was in tactics and formation, giving success? Or just pros and physics?

[Kenneth]

Rather, the number.

[Cartalon]

Where does the number come from? By Russia, the times of Svyatoslav should probably be understood as the military-trade elite from the Varangians and Slavs, it is unlikely that there were a lot of them, but as much as you like, they fought a campaign in the Norman style every year, went to the Khazars along the Volga, it’s impossible to consider the Khazars as nomads. , but collisions with them were not frequent. If we assume that they collected the militia of the tribes, then it would clearly be horseless, and I can hardly imagine the management of a fleet of thousands of boats.

[ukoft]

If the number, then it turns out the militia took from the tribes. This is already like the southern Slavs colonization. Only the south, along with their families and scrub, moved. But the militia could not be far away from home for long; there would be nobody to sow. Younger brothers like Scandinavia have their own, so in Russia there was enough land. Motivation to seek good luck was far from the mainstream. Maybe not so many soldiers were at Svyatoslav?

[rasteer]

so in Russia there was enough land.

We still seem to have it in abundance per capita, only where you don’t spit or whose or that inconvenience. So, expansion was just as relevant as in Scandinavia. There is another factor. Russia of that era was fed not so much at the expense of agriculture as at the expense of forestry (hunting, fishing, cutting areas, etc.), trade including its maintenance (pilots, security, shipbuilding, etc.) and crafts. And such an economic model gave an excess of not only free but also combat-ready male population. And they had enough motivation to seek luck on the side, since many did not hold anything, well, plus a redemption system of marriages, equal rights for slave and free children. The whole system was aimed at external expansion.

[Kenneth]

The Byzantines even claimed that "the Scythians [always] fight on foot; they are not used to fighting on horses and do not practice in this matter." But we can’t believe it or it is said about the army of Svyatoslav, who sailed to Bulgaria. Although our annals “Having heard this, Svyatoslav and his team quickly mounted horses and returned to Kiev; he greeted his mother and children and lamented what had been transferred from the Pechenegs. And he gathered soldiers and drove the Pechenegs into the steppe, and peace came” But against the Pechenegs and Khazars foot warriors would not win. Cavalry was needed there. As in general for actions in the steppe. Moreover, the source of the horses was at hand. Moreover, the dimensions of Kievan Rus and the distance between cities. About furs - maybe they used it. The date of invention of this device is unknown, but samples of iron tools have come down to us.

[ukoft]

It’s like they went down the Khazars along the Volga and took the capital. And the Pechenegs were cavalry. Like the Pechenegs themselves, they didn’t fight at all only when they arrived, they jumped to the place, dismounted, and so won, because on foot they were stronger than a light nomad nomad. Only on the doorsteps. Later, when the squad went, they mounted their horses and got the floorboards.

[rasteer]

because the pedestrian is stronger than the light nabwe nomad.

The Carthaginian light cavalry proved the opposite to the Romans; the Scythians to the Persians also proved this more than once. Such a statement is true only in the case of the meeting of spearmen - pikemen with shock cavalry, in the case of mounted arrows (the majority of nomadic peoples were them), even the most disciplined infantry was defeated in one way or another.

[ukoft]

you know the Scythians and the Carthaginians mounted, there were even stirrups and saddles. what could they do against the infantry? if it is built in battle formations? nothing. Scythians could shoot and ride off. an archer on foot will hit better than a horse without stirrups and a saddle.
only when the cavalry took up the infantry is the knights of the Middle Ages, in the Middle East, too, I must say. and then until the pikemen from the porters entered the arena, behind them were Landskhets and Spanish cercias. why don’t I have an analogue in vosotka I don’t know. the Ottomans had janissaries, but there were many fewer horse-drawn seagulls

[rasteer]

you know the Scythians and the Carthaginians mounted, there were even stirrups and saddles.

Natural riders, among other things, then, in principle, there were no stirrups. The Swedes were also laughing at Kalmyks archers near Poltava ... not for long, though, it turned out to be a native archer by birth and in the 18th century could set the heat. Just when your life with boldness depends on two things a horse and a bow you or a master or a corpse.

what could they do against the infantry? if it is built in battle formations? nothing. Scythians could shoot and ride away.

You tell the lost Persians and Romans. I’ll tell you more about the Numidian cavalry using darts rather than bows, but when the Romans lured her to their side, Hannibal lost his advantage.

an archer on foot will hit anyway

Perhaps, especially in an ideal situation when they do not shoot at you. But in reality, it turned out that those with a higher density of fire won. not his one-time accuracy. And it doesn’t matter if there were horse or foot arrows.

why don’t I have an analogue in vosotka I don’t know.

You confuse the shock cavalry whose strength was edged weapons (spear, sword, etc.) and equestrian shooters, especially the “natural cavalry”. in the east, by the way, there was heavy shock cavalry, but unlike Europe, it did not disdain onions. There is such a book to read, written without unnecessary tricks http://coollib.com/b/295247 "Cavalry in the war" is called.

[ukoft]

if light cavalry were so effective, why wouldn’t everyone use it? probably not very effective. the great steppe retreated primarily because of weaker military power. and it started before small arms.

[rasteer]

if light cavalry were so effective, why wouldn’t everyone use it?

She was used by everyone .. who she had. especially natural cavalry, nomads or Cossacks of the same. I am not saying that the same Cossacks in a head-on skirmish could crush the regular cavalry, the same lancer, created by the way as opposed to the Cossacks. But when you walk on foot against the nomads, you have two options, or you just don’t catch them and they will run away, but you can run and circle around anyway. Or they exhaust and then surround them and just stupidly shoot them with noble nobility.

. the great steppe retreated primarily because of weaker military power.

You’re mistaken that the nomads didn’t just retreat, but surrendered everywhere, not because the military power crushed them in the form of infantry, but didn’t economically drag out a continuous struggle against settled peoples, and for whom, in your opinion, all these Cossack troops were formed in the Orenburg, Yaik, Volzhsky.

and it started before small arms.

Can you be more specific? What do you mean by small arms even if the firearm doesn’t even coincide with the date of the battle on the Kulikovo Field, compare it with its distribution in Europe.

[ukoft]

Cossack troops are border guards. they can walk well in the rear. paramilitary; keeping them cheaper is simple. not for open battle. as in the Cossack proverb "the Cossack is not the one who won, the Cossack is the one who twisted." always been auxiliary parts.
but against the Polish hussars and the Crimean light cavalry, the Cossacks, as pedestrians, showed well, although with discipline they weren’t so hot.

regarding gunshot, porters and janissaries, at first had bows and crossbows. and coped well with the heavy cavalry of Europe or the Kyzylbash Persia and the Mamelukes. one of the reasons for the defeat of the Mamluks from the Ottomans is the lack of regular infantry. also caramel and other anatolia beiliqs.

[Catherine II]

Quote: rasteer

Carthaginian light cavalry proved the opposite to the Romans

Massinissa's Numidian cavalry could not have been otherwise. There, a man was born immediately with a horse ...
In general, the rider is stronger than the infantry. Faster, more mobile and corny more powerful. Plus, no one canceled psychology (the enemy is higher and attacks faster and from above)
Before the development of small arms and machine guns.

[rasteer]

There, a man was born immediately with a horse ...

so I’m talking about that,

[rasteer]

And cavalry is other Pecheneg robbers and others.

Well, yes, on which campaigns Svyatoslav, Igor, and Oleg went, well, not on foot, but they ran after them.

but then they couldn’t raise large temperatures, since it seems that they still didn’t use bellows for blowing air into the stove

Furs have been used for a very long time, there was already a swelling on the topic of critical iron, marsh iron. and other variations on the theme of metallurgy of the early Middle Ages. Yes, it’s not open-hearth steel, of course, but on the whole decent ones were already done in those years, the question is only where territorially.

[ukoft]

I studied this issue, mechanical furs, then the heated air allowed me to raise the temperature to get steel in the right quantities in raw-cheese furnaces. Ancient Rome and Greece with all advanced from and shallow iron but not steel weapons. The quality of steel can be tracked by lengthening and thinning blades. Slowly people finished the technology of steel production, and in different regions at the same time. And the blades of the early Middle Ages will be worse than from the late.

[rasteer]

and ground iron but not steel weapons

You understand the difference between iron and steel. There is no pure iron in nature and its production is a laborious process. And most importantly, it is not needed for anything other than modern technological processes. Any alloy, even the most disgusting, based on iron, is called steel. Do not compare steel 14-15vv, with steel 9-10vv it is clear that mankind has advanced technologically, but let's not talk about the difference in quality of steel produced in different eras, but about the territorial development of crafts from the time of Svyatoslav. And here everything is not so clear, for example, there are Ulfbers in disputes about the origin of which more than one keyboard is broken. In principle, in addition to crucible steel, they have already learned how to obtain non-crucible steel using the “bog etching” method, they called it bog steel (iron) and should not be confused with bog ore - limonite. Things are different. Well, the second point, in general, was that all the neighbors of Russia were in uniform technological conditions and had the same choice of weapons, and its quality depended on the wealth and fortune of a particular warrior.

[ukoft]

that's just how I know and recommend you: http://voprosik.net/metallurgiya-drevnej-rusi/

steel, this is iron + carbon. on how much carbon is very important. what steel will turn out, the main thing is that cast iron does not work, otherwise the 19th century will have to wait until this pig iron is brought to mind. and pure iron is electrical steel. in any transformer.

cementite, perlite. austenites. everything is very simple and interesting in the link

[rasteer]

that's just how I know and recommend you:

Thank you for recommending to a professional metallurgist a popular science article.
no, he writes, it’s not bad to put it more accurately, he compiles well, but if you don’t dig it very deep, “The raw-cheese process did not provide the melting point of iron (1537 ° C), but reached a maximum of 1200 ° C”. Let's start with the fact that 1537 degrees is the melting point just pure iron, which is not in nature. And the actual melting temperature of steels is 1420-1525, but the maximum temperature is characteristic of steels with a very low content of impurities, including carbon. Such steel could not be obtained in the realities of the 10th century. And the interest of metallurgists always lay closer to carbon steels and their melting point closer to 1450-1470. By the way, your blogger correctly remarks about the impossibility of reaching temperatures above 1200 degrees, for which I will tell you so, there is a good American reconstruction of crucible steel production, the very same guy your blogger knows with enthusiasm about the Macedonian story. Moreover, she appeared under the influence of finds of swords "Ulfberts" made just at the time of Svyatoslav. So this reconstruction shows us that to obtain weapons steel it is not at all necessary to heat it to the casting temperature, or at least to melting, which is 100-150 degrees lower, it is enough to simply add glass-based slag formers. By the way, Russia was one of the centers of glassmaking.

and pure iron is electrical steel.

My dear Electrotechnical steel, it is transformer steel, by no means pure iron, as you say, it contains less than 0,1% carbon, but the silicon content can reach 5%, plus aluminum. This time, two, how long have you learned to receive it?

cementite, perlite. austenites. everything is very simple and interesting in the link

thanks at the institute seen enough in a microscope

[Cat man null]

Quote: rasteer

cementite, perlite. austenites. everything is very simple and interesting in the link

thanks at the institute seen enough in a microscope

- damn, similar

[ukoft]

This blogger tried to connect some historical processes with the development of metallurgy. the process of steel production in those days described. metallurgists of those times acted empirically. their stoves all over the world stand. the fact that some glass and some lime added yes.
if you do not take scientifically, antique steel in your opinion, in fact low-carbon iron?

[ukoft]

I agree. Let us consider time. how they fought

[Catherine II]

Quote: rasteer

There is no pure iron in nature and its production is a laborious process.

native or meteorite. Does not rust.

[rasteer]

native or meteorite. Does not rust.

No and no, in both cases there are impurities in it, and in the meteorite nickel and cobalt are most often found, excellent additives for producing weapon steel. The best "knife" steel is considered to be stainless steel 95x18n9tmf 0,95% C, 18% chromium, 9% Nickel and about a percent titanium, molybdenum and vanadium, as well as manganese with silicon up to 0,5% in order to bind oxygen and "calm the steel."

[rasteer]

They haven’t become a friend yet, there are no cavalry, more Vikings are infantry,

The squad has already become, in fact, the squad is a detachment of soldiers who are constantly with the prince. Cavalry simply must be since you cannot fight without the same Pechenegs.

that is overlord (not yet a prince)

I do not quite understand why this is a prince, not a prince, but who then.

In this, unlike the Scandinavians, they cultivated and traded and engaged in crafts.

here I do not agree among the Scandinavians as well as in Russia there was a clear division into soldiers, merchants and hard workers. It’s not correct to say that merchants in Russia weren’t just because Russia, if it didn’t fight, was trading.

Scandinavian weapons and ammunition.

It’s difficult here that the Scandinavians didn’t make a good weapon, or almost didn’t, it is more likely to say that Scandinavia had a strong influence on the weapon, among other things, like Byzantium and the steppe nomads, such a place.

[Weyland]

Quote: ukoft

Quality has become worse in comparison with the late Middle Ages.

On the contrary. In the late Middle Ages, the demand was sharply increased, and they began to do it "with a larger number, at a cheaper price." In Russia in the X-XI centuries. made high-quality products from the way ("pack" flocks), in the XII m - a much more primitive, but very cheap technology for welding a steel blade onto an iron base prevailed

[ukoft]

can be more detailed. otherwise I built a theory in my head based on crustgroup data. there is such a blogger, he writes well.
The usual technology for making blades is layered. steel + iron. pies. the fact that only the blade was steel is something interesting, if the blade is narrow then it can bend upon impact

[rasteer]

can be more detailed.

Here in this thread, the issue of weapons of the times of Svyatoslav was discussed in sufficient detail in the discussion. https://topwar.ru/107024-o-vikingah-i-ih-vooruzhe
nii.html # comment-id-6567448 Read, look at the links.

[Cartalon]

Operator,
Ivan Danilovich did not choose anything that went with that and worked, but it was still far from Lithuania, but as for the rest I will not prove to you that the character of the Moscow state from Ancient Russia differs radically in all respects.

[ukoft]

The army was already different. Boyar children went instead of a squad. The reason for this is a drop in commodity-money relations, and all from a fall in agricultural productivity. We crossed to the tripole. This method, although more advanced than fallow and hooking, but due to lack of fertilizers is insufficient for commercial production. Winter is too long in Russia. Unable to mow hay for cattle for the winter. Few cattle, few fertilizers, unlike Western Europe, where winter is 2 months. At the same time, when harvesting and fallow, it was possible to take 7-10 crops, at the expense of virgin lands, and this is an average. It was possible to switch to barley as Finno-Ugric studies, but the Slavs continued to eat cactus, with their wheat

[rasteer]

The army was already different. Boyar children went instead of a squad.

"the boyars were vassals of the prince and were obliged to serve in the princely army." This wiki, if by simple, boyars, were originally vigilantes who were part of the small squad (close people), later it was called the oldest, the best, the best, the front.

Winter is too long in Russia. We did not have time to mow the hay for cattle for the winter. Few cattle, few fertilizers, unlike Western Europe, where winter is 2 months.

And then a howl from all the lands of the Russians stretched badly for us, it’s cold and hungry, because the winter is fierce on Solovki, because the Ukivschensky don’t grow bread, and the droughts fierce in the Volga region are fish and are not caught on Lake Ladoga. True, how much can the "Vologda suffering" blot out all the troubles of Russia?

few fertilizers unlike western Europe,

Here I’m just silent, it turns out where the slops from the streets of Paris (which they love to remember so much) disappeared, and in Russia there were only fairies and elves, and as you know, they don’t

Little cattle.

God open his eyes to him, and put it on one card of Kievan Rus, and on the second farmland. And then the same thing for Europe ... all, not just Italy

but the Slavs continued to eat cactus, with their wheat

Mexicans earn on cacti, and most of Russia sowed rye, and in the flesh until the 20th century.

it was possible to take 7-10 crops

You with this equation wanted to say something?

Winter is too long in Russia.

Left for dessert so to speak I will just ask questions. In what part of Russia was the winter long? Regarding what is it too long? Did the Scandinavians know about this when settling in Iceland and Greenland? And why is the territory of Russia for more than a thousand years so attracting everyone?

[ukoft]

You are not completely familiar with agriculture.

7-10 itself means from one pound of seeded get 7-10 times more.
you will not believe, but the main fertilizer up to the 20th century was manure. only in the 20th century did the Germans invent mineral fertilizers. as far back as the 19th century, potassium nitrate was imported from chilli and chilli.
before that, everyone was sitting on manure. without manure, any land was scarce. in Europe, winter is 2 months in Russia for 6 months. for cattle do you need how much hay to cook ???

[rasteer]

7-10 itself means from one pound of seeded get 7-10 times more.

Well, excuse me, not every slang warms my soul.

in Europe winter 2 months in Russia 6 months

All the same, once again I ask the question: what part of Europe do you compare with what part of Kievan Rus?

you will not believe, but the main fertilizer up to the 20th century was manure.

Yes you, that, but I thought holy water I’ll tell you more about the best manure fertilizer considered horse which in Europe was not enough. Well, and in spite of the “short winter”, cattle breeding in Europe was poorly developed, and the reason for this is banal for keeping one cow per year, even on sowing crops. and not wild plants require at least 1 ha of land. And when slaughtered, this 1 hectare turns into 300-350 kg of meat, well, offal 400 kg and this is in modern realities. Well, where did they have so much pasture, in Switzerland, the area which was not noticed until she began to supply pikemen to the kings. So that is all .

[ukoft]

so the discussion goes smoothly into an argument. I will not forget, the main thing is truth, and if it is on your side I will certainly accept and inform you about it.

trepolye, implies leaving a third of the field in pairs. and naturally they need to be fertilized. if you think that there was no place in Europe, then you are greatly mistaken. look at the ratio of cattle and meadows in Europe and central Russia there are data on those times when the population was much smaller. so cattle are much more in europe. much. and now too.

Now your question is about the duration of the winter. in Russia, Belarus, partly Poland’s winters are longer than in all of Europe, except Finland. Denmark is on the same latitude as Moscow, as is the south and center of Sweden (where almost all Swedes live). So Denmark is covered with snow for 2 months. and then the grass does not fade and always remains green.

therefore, taking into account the technologies of those times (scythe, sickle without a hammer), mow the Europeans for 2 months or the Russians for 6 months? despite the fact that a European has 10 months for haying, when a Russian has 6. how many cows can a Russian keep and how much is European? I don’t remember the forum of farmers, but you can find it on the Internet. therefore, there were large yields per capita.

Sam 7-10 is not slang. this is agricultural vocabulary. So in the middle zone of Russia with trepoli, Sam3 was considered a good result. while in Europe a lot more.

in Kievan Rus subsection and fallow prevailed. that is, virgin soil was plowed because of this, large crops were also harvested in the forests of the European part of Russia, and it was assumed that the urban population was 10-15% and the country was also called gardarika - a country of cities, there were no such indicators in Europe. but with the growth of the population, they were forced to switch to trepoly, productivity fell, as did the urban population to 5%. the peasants themselves barely made ends meet, the townspeople did not feed already.

[ukoft]

By the way, the solution was to make barley, rather than wheat, as the main crop. the Slavs grew more specifically wheat rather than barley. Finns were growing barley, though they did not know the plow. barley is the best culture for this part of Russia, but the Slavs continued to eat cactus.

Scientists say that of all cereals, barley is the most useful for humans. better than rice, wheat, rye (although I like rye bread the most) and more.

[ukoft]

boyars, that's it for them for the service they did not give money but allotments. since commodity-money relations are in decline. it was easier to keep that way. and the warriors were completely subordinate sailed like that. land was not given.

[Tchzhuan tzy]

The story of the death of Svyatoslav is not very simple. There is no doubt that certain forces (Christians?) In Kiev were INTERESTED in it.

[Cartalon]

This is a version of Gumilyov

[Nagaibak]

Operator "With the exception of this rule, G carriers make up the majority of one of the six Kazakh tribes - Argyns."
Kazakhs have no tribes. There are zhuzes, childbirths, subgenuses. And where did you get the number 6?)))

[Nagaibak]

Argyns is a genus

[Operator]

In historical science there is such a classification: family - clan - tribe - unification of tribes - people. For example, the Rurik family — the Rurikovich clan — the Rus tribe — the union of the Eastern Slavs — the Russian people.

In politics, they classify in different ways, for example, Argyns - this is a Kazakh clan.

In a genealogy you do not like, a clan is all blood relatives in a straight line.

[Nagaibak]

The Kazakhs do not have 6 tribes.))) Have you had a live chat with the Argyns?)))

[ukoft]

I communicate constantly, do not differ much from other Kazakhs. The most numerous kind if my memory serves me right. The main habitat is eastern and central Kazakhstan. It is believed that naimanas differ from others in their cunning. This is probably because there are few Jews. People should dislike someone. Caimans are basically haplogroup o and p1b seems. Spawn Chinese (possibly from the Karakites) and relatives of the Bashkirs.

[Nagaibak]

ukoft "I communicate constantly, they don’t differ much from other Kazakhs. The largest genus is if my memory serves me. The main habitat is eastern and central Kazakhstan. Naiman are believed to differ from others in their cunning. This is probably because there are few Jews. people should dislike it. Caimans are basically the haplogroup o and p1b. The Chinese (probably from the Karakites) and the Bashkirs are relatives. "

Talking about gallogroups without reference to credible sources is considered pointless. These are simply unconfirmed fabrications. And nothing more. I, too, can unprovenly say a lot about who belongs to which gallogroup. Well, God be with them.))) Are you Kazakh? If so, what kind?

[ukoft]

There is a Kazakh project elim.kz from the international family tree. You will find everything there by the clans and subgenera of the Kazakhs. The largest base they have. By the way, I found my ancestors there until the 13th century. Our family led only up to the 7th knee. I am of a Naiman kind, we are replacing the Jews, for which they would have to bill. It's hard when you dislike.

[Nagaibak]

ukoft "I’m a kind of Naiman, we are replacing the Jews, for which they would have to bill. It’s hard when they dislike you."
My mum’s grandfather is Dzhagalbayly, Ormantai.))) I myself am Russian, but I have an idea of ​​the Kazakh people.))) And when people write confidently that the Kazakhs consist of six tribes, I want to object.))) What I and I do.)))

[ukoft]

6 tribes, of course, yes, wrong. In such a large space, in the ever-purging winds of change, how many people have driven there. Kazakhs cannot consist of 6 tribes. Genetically, the mass is rather mottled. That's who in the mountains left they have a dominant gene. These are the Kirghiz r1a and Bashkirir1b.
Kazakh has three jurts:
1 kindred to the father are considered envious.
2- co-parties of the wife, always dissatisfied, it is understandable.
3- relatives from the mother’s side, “Nagash Zhurt” are considered good. After all, the children of a daughter who was given to a strange family. Always try to help.
So, we are for you. So contact, if that.
Operator you are wrong, no offense. After all, a relative)

[ukoft]

By the way, I don’t know why you didn’t like the operator, but not from scratch he writes, if you need links, you can find the necessary info on the network. I can help

[Nagaibak]

ukoft "By the way, I don’t know why you disliked the operator, but he writes out of nowhere."
Where did you get it. There is no place for love.))) Just if you say something, justify on an adult that's all. I already wrote. Volume № Fond№ worksheet, etc.)))

[smr]

Argyns are a tribe, not a clan, and a large one. From the middle zhuz. And it consists of the clans of Suyindykai, Karauyl, Altai, Karakesek and others, right now I can’t remember. By the way, around Omsk there are many auls namely Argyns.

[Nagaibak]

smr "Argyns are a tribe, not a clan, and a large one."
It may have been a tribe sometime. Argyn-Meiram, Momyn, Tokal-argyn then the 1st group and the 2nd group are what you listed.

[Nagaibak]

Add a little. In order not to abut the terminology with you.))) Do you also think that the Kazakhs consist of 6 tribes?))) My statements about the Kazakh Clans are based on the opinion of the OUTSTANDING KAZAKH ENLIGHTENER MUKHAMEJAN TYNYSHPAYEV.))) I do not know how for you. For me, his opinion on this issue is, so to speak, the most authoritative.))) Let’s take the Argyns if we are talking about them.
"People related to the Kyrgyz people, which have representatives of the most important Kyrgyz clans.
Kara-Kyrgyz-Argyn
Turkmens-argyn
Kazan Tatars - Argyn
Caucasian Muslim peoples-argyn. "p. 38 Tynyshpaev M. Great calamities ....- Alma-ata: Zhalyn, 1991.- 152с.
Cited for an example. retyping the whole is too lazy. Here are the peoples among which Argyns are found. Or is given: "Genealogy tables for the genealogy of the Kyrgyz-Cossack clans." "Ibid.

[Loki_2]

Russian prince Svyatoslav Igorevich is one of the most prominent rulers and commanders Russia-Russia.

Oh guys, you will hear crypto history. There is an example before my eyes
So no, everything is there too. Ancient Russians they are more ancient than ancient ukrov! Get hung up!

[Jääkorppi]

"Dew - the streets, the ancestors of the Cossacks" !! Eco, you rushing. Russian Empire. A little bit of history, notably diluted with fantasies, speculation and Slavism. Just like the modern Ukrainian "historians".