Military Review

A new type of destroyer is being built in Japan

171



Japanese ships can be distinguished by the ideal state of the decks and sides. Beauty is achieved in two ways: 1) traditional Japanese accuracy and attention to detail; 2) is an extremely young age that many ships do not exceed 10 years.

In just one decade, the Japanese Self-Defense Forces Navy (JMSDF) added 10 with new destroyers.

The update is unnoticeable, without any fuss and promises to build N ships by ... the fifteenth year.

Four are classified as helicopter destroyers. With a solid flight deck and dimensions, clearly exceeding the size of conventional destroyers. But this is not the “Mistral”. Japanese helicopter carriers are designed to operate on the high seas, as part of high-speed squadrons of warships. In concept, they are close to the Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers (TAVKr Ave 1143), adjusted for their smaller sizes and more balanced characteristics for solving clearly defined tasks (PLO).



From the destroyers they got an impressive range of means of detection (radars with AFAR, sonars). And anti-submarine helicopters of the “Hyuga” type are also not a weak defensive complex, 60 medium-range anti-aircraft missiles.

Two destroyers (type "Atago") - enlarged copies of the American "Berkov", equipped with the "Aegis" system and 90 launchers for SAM, and SM-3 space interceptors.

The last four are the Akizuki-type missile destroyers (they entered service in 2012 - 2014). Small for its class (7000 tons), but equipped with the most modern electronics. Ground for detecting low-flying targets.

The appearance of these ships completed the formation of the air defense circuit of Japanese connections. In this scheme, “melee destroyers” cover “senior in rank” - ships equipped with the Aegis system, which are responsible for intercepting targets at high altitudes.

Nobody else has such a competent system, even the US Navy.

But less than a couple of years, and the Japanese launch another destroyer of a new type (design DD25), named Asahi. In honor of the battleship of the Russo-Japanese War.

A new type of destroyer is being built in Japan

Destroyer Destroyer Ceremony, October 19 2016


Who does not say; who says does not

The appearance of “Asahi” came as a surprise even to those who are closely following the construction of warships around the world. Yes, this went only vague rumors about the development of two series of newest destroyers - the budget DD25 and the promising DD27, combining conventional weapons with weapons on new nat. principles. Without specifying specific characteristics and the number of ships under construction.

However, today the amount of information has increased slightly.

JS Asahi, tail number “119”. The length of the hull is 151 m, width is 18,3 m. The standard displacement is 5100 t. Full - within 7000 t. The main feature is a new type of sonar, whose name and characteristics are not disclosed.

Everything else - the conclusions made on the basis of the photographs.


One of the first images of the DD25 destroyer under construction


First of all, it should be noted that the Japanese still managed to build a destroyer that does not look like an aircraft carrier.

Based on the statements, the main purpose of “Asahi” will be anti-submarine defense. The design of the destroyer does not contain a large number of innovative solutions. DD25 - another step in the development of Japanese 2010 destroyers. (“Hyuga”, “Izumo”, “Akizuki”), carrying similar combat systems and means of detection.

On the external surfaces of the superstructure, there are visible elements of a characteristic form — places for installing antennas of a multifunctional radar, like FCS-3A. Radar complex, consisting of eight active headlights. Four perform the functions of detection, four - missile guidance. The system is designed to repel attacks in the near zone using low-flying anti-ship missiles.


Antenna radar destroyer helicopter carrier "Hyuga"

The combat information system (CICS) is likely to be represented by the ATECS system.

Advanced technology command system (ATECS) is an independent Japanese development that takes into account all the technical nuances and tactics of using ships, also known as “Japanese Aegis”.

The possibilities of the new “Asahi” coincide with the previous project “Akizuki”. The main difference is in the installation of a new sonar, the characteristics of which, as already noted above, are classified. In the presented pictures, there are no images of the GUS. It may be a towed low-frequency antenna and / or an antenna with a variable depth of immersion. With the corresponding changes made to the destroyer CSI.

At the rear of the superstructure there is a helicopter hangar and a landing pad.

Armament - according to the established tradition, 32 or 16 underdeck launchers. On the amount you can not pinpoint. Like all modern ships, “Asahi” will be constructively underloaded, in order to save money in peacetime. If necessary, the number of DPS and other weapons on board can increase unpredictably.

Despite the lack of information on the exact composition of weapons, the meaning of the appearance of these ships is beyond doubt. The Japanese concept provides for the creation of a layered defense (air defense / air defense) for combat maneuvering areas of ships performing missile defense tasks.

The Japanese are equally well aware of the threat posed by modern low-flying missiles and submarines. Hence a series of multifunctional destroyers with developed defensive capabilities, in parallel with which high-speed helicopter carriers are being built with anti-submarine helicopter squadrons.

In fact, few people realize that in the field of anti-submarine defense, the Japanese fleet has long been the first to take the lead in the world.

Yes, and in other parameters, he is already catching up with the American fleet. To date, the Japanese Navy has 30 warships in the ocean zone with missiles.

Despite the apparent diversity of destroyer types, all combat complexes, systems and mechanisms are strictly unified. So, all the ships of the latest series (“Hyuga”, “Izumo”, “Akizuki”, “Asahi”) carry the same set of sensors and BIUS. Gas turbine power plants are represented by only two types of turbines - LM2500 and Rolls-Royce Sprey, manufactured under license. For the storage and launch of missiles of all types, standard MK.41 launchers are used.


Floating Acoustic Jammer (FAJ) aboard the Akizuki destroyer. The system shoots acoustic false targets (“rattle” floats) at a distance of up to 1000 m from the ship’s side, the battery life of the 7 is min.

The surface component of the Japanese Navy has a strictly defensive purpose. Despite the presence of a certain number of anti-ship missiles (“Type 90” of their own design), Japanese destroyers do not carry shock weapons in the form of long-range missiles. Officially, this is connected with the article of the Japanese constitution prohibiting the creation of such systems. There is also a modern principle in which shock tasks are considered the prerogative of submarines and aviation.

Whenever the topic is Japanese fleet, the public has associations with the Russo-Japanese War and Tsushima. The wound inflicted in that battle cannot heal for over 100 years. The reason was a deafening defeat from those who were considered "funny macaques" and helpless vassals of Great Britain.

Lord, the repetition of Tsushima in our day is impossible. To do this, the ships should be on both sides, and not just on one side.

In the Tsushima battle, as well as during the battle in the Yellow Sea, Russian and Japanese squadrons fought. Consisting of equal-sized ships built at the same time, on the same technical level. At the same time, at the beginning of the last century, the Japanese had not yet observed such a clear numerical superiority over the Russian fleet.


Launch of Izumo helicopter destroyer, 2013 year. The second aircraft carrier of this type will be commissioned on 22 in March 2017.



"Asahi" under construction next to the major destroyer "Asigara"
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  1. aszzz888
    aszzz888 13 March 2017 06: 41
    +3
    ... the Ipenians are climbing quietly into the world stage and no one will stop them ... at least for now angry
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 13 March 2017 10: 06
      +3
      Yes, and in the distant future will not stop.
      1. vanek77
        vanek77 13 March 2017 10: 56
        26
        And only we have silence, all projects have been sent to the next weapons program, we are building only kayaks. We have survived, there are such movements around us, and we seem to want to hide and not see anything. But where with such territory and with such riches where can you hide? After all, they are all arming themselves in order to make claims in the Far East and Siberia in the future, this is not a secret. And our fleet is constantly being compressed in the tonnage, we are trying to shove the frigates not even into the watchmen, but into the RTOs and boats. One annual salary of Sechin is enough to build a pair of aircraft carriers and one annual salary of Yakunin to build four destroyers. Everyone is engaged in the division of the military-industrial complex, when it would be worthwhile to pay attention to the fact that all around us are arming themselves, so that in the future we will leave only the west of Russia, where there is nothing.
        Only one phrase of Pavel Luspekaev, from the film “The White Sun of the Desert”, about the state is knocking on his head, but along the way she probably rested with the Union.
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 13 March 2017 11: 18
          +1
          Quote: vanek77
          And only we have silence, all projects have been sent to the next weapons program, we are building only kayaks.

          Is it necessary to remind that all Japanese destroyers "Severodvinsk" on one salvo? The surface component of the fleet is auxiliary, the main striking force is submarine missile carriers.
          1. vanek77
            vanek77 13 March 2017 12: 04
            19
            Do I need to remind you that such boats are not only ours, and that we also lag behind in this indicator, especially quantitatively. We only have a narrow exit from the Wasp Nest, and that one is under close supervision. In order to prevent us from being blocked on our own bases in the event of a conflict, we need to be on guard in operational areas, for which we just need to have an ocean fleet that, in fact, is degrading. And how many Severodvinsk have? They still have mattress bases there, so their superiority is measured by orders of magnitude if you include aircraft carriers and destroyers and multi-purpose submarines of mattresses here. Or do you think that they have nothing to do with squeezing a ring of bases and conflicts around us, no, but that would, if the opportunity arises, deliver a leading and disarming strike and nuclear weapons will be used here minimally.
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 13 March 2017 13: 49
              0
              Quote: vanek77
              Do I need to remind you that such boats are not only ours, and that we also lag behind in this indicator, especially quantitatively.

              Needless to say, besides us, only Americans have such boats?
              Quote: vanek77
              And how many Severodvinsk have?

              We have an EMNIP of five or six Anteevs, two in the Pacific Fleet, and this is stronger than the entire Japanese fleet.
              Quote: vanek77
              They still have mattress bases there, so their superiority is measured by orders of magnitude if you include aircraft carriers and destroyers and multi-purpose submarines of mattresses here.

              We have Topol and Mace against the mattress covers, and Tu-160 with nuclear missiles against the American aircraft carrier groups.
              Quote: vanek77
              Or do you think that they have nothing to do, squeezing a ring of bases around us

              The Americans have all non-nuclear weapons against our fleet - antediluvian "harpoons", which are forty years old at lunch.
              Quote: vanek77
              so that at a convenient opportunity to deliver a leading and disarming strike

              But how will they strike this blow? What is the US Navy armed with anti-ship to fight the Russians?
              1. fzr1000
                fzr1000 14 March 2017 13: 17
                0
                Maritime Aviation.
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 14 March 2017 21: 07
                  0
                  Quote: fzr1000
                  Maritime Aviation.

                  It was about ships, why then are they needed if naval aviation ...?
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 15 March 2017 23: 53
                    +1
                    It was about ships, why then are they needed if naval aviation ...?

                    Destroyers of long-range anti-aircraft defense cover the area from aviation and carry out missile defense from RSMD (in the future, ICBMs), destroyers of near-air defense and anti-aircraft defense protect the area from enemy submarines and "older brothers" from anti-ship missiles. They are assisted by the ally’s universal submarines.
                    Question: who will issue target designation to Antei for launching missiles at maximum range? He himself “sees” less than 100 km.
                    1. KaPToC
                      KaPToC 16 March 2017 00: 03
                      0
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      Question: who will issue target designation to Antei for launching missiles at maximum range? He himself “sees” less than 100 km.

                      Satellite? Aircraft AWACS? Liana (or its analogue) has many options. "Anthei" will not be spherical artiodactyls in airless space, alone against the whole world, in the area of ​​hostilities will be our fleet.
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      Destroyers of long-range anti-aircraft defense cover the area from aviation and carry out missile defense from RSMD (in the future, ICBMs), destroyers of near-air defense and anti-aircraft defense protect the area from enemy submarines and "older brothers" from anti-ship missiles. They are assisted by the ally’s universal submarines.

                      We surpass the Japanese in aviation; they do not have aircraft carriers.
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      They are assisted by the ally’s universal submarines.

                      They don’t help, but they are convulsively thinking of starting the Third World War or not!
                      1. 3danimal
                        3danimal 16 March 2017 08: 52
                        +1
                        Satellite? Aircraft AWACS? Liana (or its analogue) has many options.

                        There are no satellites, there is a project and beautiful animations. There was an attempt to translate it into a superpower of the USSR ("Legend" with a nuclear reactor on board, very expensive and unsuccessful), its remains still fly in "recycling" high orbits.
                        Aircraft DRLO few, and specialized, like Tu-95RC (not left) or Tu-214r (2 pieces) even less.
                        We surpass the Japanese in aviation; they do not have aircraft carriers.

                        The Japanese have military allies, the Russian Federation has no political association (another difference from the great Union). Sad as it is ..
                        frantically thinking of starting a Third World War or not!

                        It is unlikely that a local unsuccessful clash in the ocean will give rise to Russia to be the first to start a nuclear war (there will be no threat on its territory - remember the Doctrine). And we do not have forces to conduct a conventional conflict at sea (and in the air above it) against Japan and the United States.
              2. 3danimal
                3danimal 17 March 2017 06: 41
                0
                antediluvian "harpoons", which are forty years old at lunch

                You are mistaken, not understanding the question.
                Harpoons of 40 years ago and modern, in addition to a similar layout, different missiles. GOS, engine, fuel. In an almost (slightly longer) identical compus. Do you judge by appearance?
            2. 3danimal
              3danimal 16 March 2017 00: 02
              +1
              they have nothing to do, they squeeze a ring of bases and conflicts around us, no, but that would, if the opportunity arises, deliver a leading and disarming strike and nuclear weapons will be used here minimally.

              Or maybe they just master the territory freed from the influence of a superpower? The Balts themselves invited them, they are afraid of the Russian Federation ..
              I do not think that they seriously consider us as a strategic opponent. A challenge to one superpower can be thrown only by another. It’s easier for Russia to “strangle” the economic blockade (they haven’t even tried to impose it close, besides, not everything is ready for this in Europe), for this opportunity - thanks to the “pipe” mono-economy created in this country.
        2. g1v2
          g1v2 13 March 2017 12: 57
          +4
          Yes, sorry for you, Kazakhs. You are clearly not enough destroyers. lol It’s just not clear - what are you trying on the salary of our Sechin? What is it that Kazakhstan owes? belay
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 15 March 2017 20: 44
            +1
            it is not clear - what are you trying to attack our Sechin’s salary?

            I propose to double Sechin's salary for services to the fatherland;)
            By the way, he had until 2015 the largest among all CEOs in the largest oil companies in the world.
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null 15 March 2017 20: 59
              0
              Quote: 3danimal
              By the way, he had until 2015 the largest among all CEOs in the largest oil companies in the world

              - and how to check? Or offer to take your word for it?
        3. 3danimal
          3danimal 15 March 2017 20: 25
          +3
          People, it is important, finally, to understand that the main wealth is advanced science and industry of high processing.
          The budget of Japan exceeds the Russian Federation by 3 times: $ 840 and $ 260 billion. The Japanese allocated only $ 277 billion for social programs
          Being “smart” is more profitable than digging the earth. And over the past 26 years, "we" pretty "stupid" ...
      2. Operator
        Operator 13 March 2017 17: 30
        +2
        P.pets came to the whole Japanese fleet: Commander Miho Otani - the first Japanese woman, captain of the destroyer "Yamagiri" laughing

        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 15 March 2017 20: 33
          +3
          Commander Miho Otani - The First Japanese Woman Captain of the Yamagiri Destroyer

          What do you personally have against Miho Otani? Do you know a lot about her commanding qualities, IQ level, education, stress tolerance?
          Given some bias in naval circles, it is very likely that a female candidate for the position of captain will have to significantly outperform competitors in her data. Few women (as, indeed, men) can do it. Yes, there will always be fewer in this area. But if it can - let it work.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 15 March 2017 21: 00
            0
            Quote: 3danimal
            What do you personally have against Miho Otani?

            - she is scary laughing
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 15 March 2017 23: 41
              0
              - she is scary

              And most importantly - an Asian ..
              1. Cat man null
                Cat man null 15 March 2017 23: 48
                0
                Quote: 3danimal
                - she is scary

                And most importantly - an Asian ..

                - it doesn’t give a damn, we are somewhere internationalists ...
                - but the fact that she looks like an otter is a little annoying ...

                ... in the bowels of the tundra otters in leggings dig cedar kernels into buckets ...

                - this is what she reminded me of yes
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 March 2017 07: 04
                  0
                  Wipe your face with a hetero otter, otter into the tundra, nuclei into buckets laughing
                2. 3danimal
                  3danimal 16 March 2017 08: 25
                  0
                  Can you write a sympathetic letter to her husband (wife?);)
      3. Teberii
        Teberii 13 March 2017 19: 00
        0
        The Japanese have long been eyeing a change in the constitution, introducing amendments regarding the army to change its status.
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 14 March 2017 19: 54
          +2
          Quote: aszzz888
          ... the Ipponians climb in a quiet, global arena and no one will stop them ...

          Yeah belay they will soon catch up with us in numbers ... sitting on their militaristic islets. And we have one sixth of the land, and the people cried. Already abydna! crying
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 15 March 2017 20: 48
            +1
            they will soon catch up with us in numbers ... sitting on their militaristic islets. And we have one sixth of the land, and the people cried. Already abydna! crying

            It’s not enough to be big, you have to be smart and trained, and have a decent income. Otherwise, it turns out a "mattress", which will not be taken seriously.
  2. inkass_98
    inkass_98 13 March 2017 07: 02
    11
    The repetition of Tsushima, Oleg, is impossible for a completely different reason than the inequality of the fleets of Russia and Japan. Too close in modern terms, Japan is located on our shores, they will not have time to make harakiri, as they can again see an unpleasant mushroom over the islands.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 13 March 2017 07: 37
      +4
      In addition, there are ACEs in the form of "granite" systems for ships and nuclear submarines, coastal complexes on the islands and the mainland, and naval aviation with anti-ship missiles. This is clearly not enough to attack Japan or fighting on the high seas, but more than to stop the navigation of anyone (including the US fleet) near us. In fact, the main problem of the Japanese and American Navy is the growing fleet of China ...
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 13 March 2017 13: 19
        +9
        Quote: Zaurbek
        In addition, there are ACEs in the form of "granite" systems in ships and nuclear submarines

        Judging by the latest data, there are practically no “granites”. Recently there was infa that pr. 949A will be rearmament under the "caliber" system.
        Soviet legacy does not last forever. 30-year-old missiles cannot be modernized forever and extended.
        Quote: Zaurbek
        and naval aviation with anti-ship missiles.

        So there is no Navy aviation with anti-ship missiles. Already a long time ago, all the mraps were handed over to the Air Force.
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 13 March 2017 13: 33
          +3
          The essence of the rearmament is that 3-4 modern missiles fast in one Granite mine. Some of them are onyxes, part zircons, part calibers. So, Onyx and Zircon will perform the functions of Granite.
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 15 March 2017 20: 58
      +3
      Too close in modern terms, Japan is located on our shores, they will not have time to make harakiri, as they can again see an unpleasant mushroom over the islands.

      In what fantasies did you decide that the possible (in theory) defeat of a group of warships by the forces of the Japanese fleet would entail the use of ICBMs on their territory? The military doctrine of the Russian Federation provides for the use of nuclear weapons only in case of a threat on its territory.
      Further, it would be an attack by a US military ally, with all that it implies .. (economic blockade or even retaliation)
      And how confident are you in the reliability of our nuclear weapons, inherited from the great and mighty USSR? Plutonium has been stored in warheads for 15 years under ideal conditions, then it simply will not explode or there will be fractions of a percent of the rated power. And since the late 80s, the production of weapons-grade plutonium has been curtailed (with the money of the Americans, including).
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 March 2017 07: 05
        0
        Quote: 3danimal
        Plutonium has been stored in warheads for 15 years under ideal conditions, then it simply will not explode or there will be fractions of a percent of the rated power

        Where is this from? :) Ie You want to say that the United States no longer has nuclear weapons? :)))
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 16 March 2017 08: 23
          +1
          You want to say that the United States no longer has nuclear weapons?

          I have not heard that they stop the production of the filling for the A (H) bomb.
          But the principle is true. Unlike conventional warheads and aerial bombs that can be stored for decades, the age of these “crumbs” is very short and a powerful industry is needed to maintain their combat effectiveness.
          PS With the production of fuel for nuclear power plants has many differences)
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 March 2017 10: 16
            0
            Quote: 3danimal
            But the principle is true. Unlike conventional warheads and bombs that can be stored for decades, the age of these “crumbs” is very short

            30 years of guaranteed storage, we extend to 50, in the USA - up to 90 years.
            Quote: 3danimal
            I didn’t hear them stop producing the filling for the A (H) bomb

            Weapon-grade plutonium production both we and they stopped back in the 80s.
  3. Alex 2016
    Alex 2016 13 March 2017 07: 36
    11
    in one decade, the Japanese Navy's Self-Defense Forces (JMSDF) were replenished with 10 new destroyers. And during this time, at best, we will be able to almost complete the construction of one corvette.
    1. Santa Fe
      13 March 2017 08: 02
      21
      Quote: Alexey 2016
      in one decade, the Japanese Self-Defense Forces Navy (JMSDF) was supplemented with 10 new destroyers.

      After becoming acquainted with the military forces of Japan, the pace of renewal and the amount of the latest technology, Shoigu and the Company, with their statements, promises and defense order, just make fun of the ridicule

      What, in fact, they are
      1. Alex_59
        Alex_59 13 March 2017 08: 59
        +7
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Shoigu and the Company with their declarations, promises and defense orders will come out just a laughing stock

        laughing As always enchanting. I was laughed by the author, not Shoigu. The phrase from the category "drunk on a bench teaches the life of the president."
        Shoigu and Co. are still kosyachniki, yes. There is something to kick for. But they go and do, after them there will be at least something tangible, and after the author - reposts of pictures from WoWs. laughing
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        the pace of updates and the amount of latest technology

        Particularly encouraging is the success of the Japanese in the field of ground forces and aviation. We cry of course ... yes.
        1. Santa Fe
          13 March 2017 09: 08
          13
          Quote: Alex_59
          Shoigu and Co. - still kosyachniki

          They are not kosyachniki, they make a picture for "domestic consumption"
          Quote: Alex_59
          after them there will be at least something tangible

          In Russia, the last century in one scenario:

          First Nikolashka banged with his family, Stalin came - interrupted all Lenin's guard, Khrushchev came - threw Stalin out of the mausoleum, then Brezhnev came - publicly spat Khrushchev's corn, then Alkash started races. When the present is gone - he will also get all the laurels of popular love)))

          ps / Nothing will remain after these. The period will go down in history as the era of plundering a great country with particular cynicism.
          1. Alex_59
            Alex_59 13 March 2017 09: 28
            11
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            They are not kosyachniki, they make a picture for "domestic consumption"

            Do it right. And this also needs to be addressed. Including. And kosyachniki, because really, could do more and talk less.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            There will be nothing left after these.

            From 2009 to 2016, 324 of new (newly produced) front-line fighter and bomber was delivered to the Air Force and Navy, which is approximately equal to the total number of similar aircraft of the Japanese Air Force. At least these planes will remain. Therefore, I do not need to hang noodles on my ears here. The new Su-30 and 35 I see above my head every month - fly in groups from East to West. Or is it a Shoigu hologram?
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            The period will go down in history as the era of the plunder of a great country with special cynicism
            These wet dreams are of little interest to anyone, as are the pictures from WoWs.
            1. Santa Fe
              13 March 2017 09: 50
              11
              Quote: Alex_59
              And this, too, must be addressed. Including.

              This is just not necessary to do.

              MO - not the Ministry of Propaganda (after all, the "picture" - it is for domestic consumption)
              Quote: Alex_59
              From 2009 to 2016 year in the Air Force and Navy delivered 324 new (newly produced) front-line fighter and bomber,

              This is less than Airbus collects in a year.
              Quote: Alex_59
              At least these planes will remain.

              The main thing that Russia remains
              1. Alex_59
                Alex_59 13 March 2017 10: 01
                +6
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                This is less than Airbus collects in a year.

                And I yelled "Hooray, we are the coolest, we will defeat everyone !!!"? No, I didn’t scream like that. I don’t feel enthusiasm from Shoigu and Putin, but at least your position “everything is terrible, everything is lost” is also not adequate. And it gives you some kind of infantilism, because if you at least steered your IP or LLC, you would understand that you don’t need to scold the boss a lot of mind. But to do better than them, without excuses like "he has his own son" - it is necessary to have a head and sensible hands. And still, it will not work perfectly - they will steal, they will make mistakes, and stupid things. This is not scribble articles.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                This is just not necessary to do.

                I do not agree. smile It is necessary to do this and it is useful. For example - googled how much the number of "mowing" from the army has decreased over the past 5 years. And the use of competent PR will immediately become clear.
                1. Santa Fe
                  13 March 2017 20: 05
                  +4
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  And I screamed "Hurray, we are the coolest, we will win all !!!"? No, I didn't scream like that.

                  Who started the comparison of aircraft building capacity
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  how much the number of "mowers" from the army has decreased over the past 5 years.

                  Seen enough of the tele and went into the army?)) Lopatoprioty? Idealists?))

                  The number declined for one reason - reduced service life to 1 year
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  And the benefits of competent PR will immediately become clear.

                  Kiselev with his ashes for the older generation who have already served
                  And the goal there is quite different than recruiting
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 10: 17
                +9
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                This is less than Airbus collects in a year.

                Airbus collects fighters and bombers? wassat
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                After becoming acquainted with the military forces of Japan, the pace of renewal and the amount of the latest technology, Shoigu and the Company, with their statements, promises and defense order, just make fun of the ridicule

                God be with them, with the Air Force and ground forces, we take the fleet. Over the last decade
                Japan - 10 destroyers, 9 diesel submarines.
                RF - 3 SSBNs, 1 SSBN (Ash), 2 frigates 11356, 6 diesel-electric submarines 635.3, 4 corvettes 20380, we do not consider trifle pot-bellied river-sea classes.
                Where is the cotostrophe?
                1. bulvas
                  bulvas 13 March 2017 11: 05
                  +2
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  God be with them, with the Air Force and ground forces, we take the fleet. Over the last decade
                  Japan - 10 destroyers, 9 diesel submarines.
                  RF - 3 SSBNs, 1 SSBN (Ash), 2 frigates 11356, 6 diesel-electric submarines 635.3, 4 corvettes 20380, we do not consider trifle pot-bellied river-sea classes.


                  You can add here icebreakers, which are no less important to us.

                  Our captain (who is frigate) doesn't care that Russia is not going to fight for some islands or distant straits in the Pacific Ocean, on which we carry nothing like China or Japan

                  For us much more important than SV and VKS

                  Still wondering how long these magnificent destroyers with their radars against the Zircons can hold out?

                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 11: 24
                    +4
                    Quote: bulvas
                    You can add here icebreakers, which are no less important to us.

                    Yes, there is a lot to add. Firstly, we assumed an imported gas-turbine engine on the same corvettes; German was not Shoigu's fault. The fact that Europe has announced sanctions to us is also not Shoigu's fault :))) I, of course, are for Crimea in the Russian Federation, but we cannot ignore the fact that this created certain problems for us in the shipbuilding industry! And you can’t shift them to Shoigu’s indiscretion, he obviously has nothing to do with it. Japan, of course, did not encounter such problems. Further, the Japanese have a ton of equipment not their own, but purchased in the states, or licensed release, and we don’t have anything that we have developed, we have. This is a completely different level of difficulty and all this is worth considering.
                    And finally, no matter how cool the reequipment of the SV and VKS is going on, over the past decade we have commissioned aviation almost a half times more than the Japanese Air Force has :)
                    And this despite the fact that the Japanese are almost not inferior to us in population, and their GDP is higher than ours
                    1. bulvas
                      bulvas 13 March 2017 12: 13
                      +3
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Yes, there is a lot to add.


                      It's right.
                      For example, the fact that Nikolaev was not in Russia, the production of turbines is not in Russia.

                      Perhaps the shipyards in Bolshoi Kamen and the developed production of their turbines will add a little optimism to O. Kaptsov

                  2. Blind111
                    Blind111 14 March 2017 17: 43
                    +1
                    Quote: bulvas
                    Still wondering how long these magnificent destroyers with their radars against the Zircons can hold out?

                    About 15 years, I think they will definitely hold out ... while the Zircons only fly from corner to corner of whatman paper
                  3. 3danimal
                    3danimal 17 March 2017 07: 51
                    0
                    how long can these magnificent destroyers hold out with their radars against the Zircons?

                    Zircons do not exist as weapons, there is only a project that carries out scientific and technical research.
                    The Russian Federation spends 4 yards on science, the United States 120, who have the chance to take a ready-made model of weapons earlier?
                2. Alex_59
                  Alex_59 13 March 2017 14: 07
                  +2
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Airbus collects fighters and bombers?

                  By the way, yes. The author I remember was so fond of setting the speed of building tankers as an example, in support of the cheapness and cost-free increase in the amount of “iron” in the form of armor on warships. They say the main laboriousness is given by systems - radar, electronics. This is when the author is beneficial. But how it comes to the opposite - that civilian liners on the "complexity" immediately easily equal to combat fighters. And the fact that the latter is much more complicated electronics, weapons systems, etc.?
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 14: 21
                    +1
                    I confess I did not understand the other. If we compare the successes of the military-industrial complex of Japan and the Russian Federation, then ... since when did Airbus become Japanese? recourse
                    1. Santa Fe
                      13 March 2017 20: 15
                      +3
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      If we compare the successes of the military industrial complex of Japan and the Russian Federation, then ... since when has Airbus become Japanese?

                      Alex wanted to justify the success of the aircraft industry by comparing the Russian Federation Air Force and the Japanese Air Force

                      Just forgot to take into account that Japan not even a close leader in this area, due to artificial restrictions

                      If Alex wants to know how fast the leading manufacturers of the world collect airplanes - just right to get acquainted with Airbus
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 March 2017 06: 45
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Alex wanted to justify the successes of the aircraft industry by comparing the Russian Air Force and the Japanese Air Force. He only forgot to take into account that Japan was not even a close leader in this area, due to artificial restrictions.

                        Oleg, you probably didn’t know, but in this world everything is interconnected. There is a country in Japan, which has a larger GDP than ours, and the population is comparable in number. And there are programs for the acquisition of new military equipment in the Russian Federation and in Japan. And there is also a simple fact like mooing - that despite a definite advantage in updating the fleet by the Japanese, we are several times, if not orders of magnitude, superior to the latter in the supply of military aircraft for the air force and ground equipment. This is me about the Strategic Missile Forces generally keep quiet in a rag.
                        In general, the Russian Armed Forces receive significantly more military equipment than the Japanese Armed Forces. Therefore, nitpicking to Shoigu in this particular case is unfounded
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        I just forgot to take into account that Japan was not even a close leader in this area, due to artificial restrictions

                        Oleg, you have an interesting way of comparing. In your opinion, any industry in the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation should be compared with the world leader in the industry, and if ours are inferior, is Shoigu to blame and everything is lost? :)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        If Alex wants to know how fast the leading manufacturers of the world collect airplanes - just right to get acquainted with Airbus

                        Oleg, Airbus is not a Japanese company or a military industrial complex, therefore, a comparison to zero is incorrect. Airbus has orders for 400 aircraft per year, not a single enterprise in the world military-industrial complex has such an order. Let’s cry then over the ugly management and the mediocre Minister of War of the United States, which produces three dozen F-35s each year, while Airbus ...
                  2. Santa Fe
                    13 March 2017 20: 10
                    +3
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    civil aircraft on the "complexity" immediately easily equal combat fighters. But the fact that In the latter, electronics, weapons systems, etc. are much more complicated?

                    Who told you that??

                    For the sake of decency - look at their prices.

                    Civil liner - with its aerobatic complex and security systems, is hardly simpler than a combat aircraft



                    Flight engineer seat
                    1. bulvas
                      bulvas 13 March 2017 20: 41
                      +2
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      Flight engineer seat


                      Distort, my friend, not ashamed?

                      And here the flight engineer of a commercial airliner with its systems for monitoring the condition of equipment in comparison with:

                      - aiming systems,
                      - observations
                      - EW,
                      - radar,
                      - secure communication
                      - optoelectronic systems
                      - weapon control
                      etc. etc.



                      You are certainly an authority on the Navy, but
                      - be easier and people will reach for you
                    2. Alex_59
                      Alex_59 13 March 2017 21: 40
                      +1
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      For the sake of decency - look at their prices.

                      Oh yes, right now, this picture will turn my mind about aviation. Sam, when was the last time a living plane touched, theorist? He sat in a puddle, as usual, but today with drop dead splashes, we can’t admit our stupidity as always, and we wriggle like that, turning the arrows either to Airbus or to some "artificial" restrictions. I do not know for which schoolchildren this nonsense should be convincing, but I neighing today from the heart, thank you. laughing
                      1. Santa Fe
                        13 March 2017 22: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex_59
                        Oh yes, Shas this picture will turn my ideas about aviation.

                        Fact is fact - liner not cheaper military aircraft

                        so a comparison with a tanker (a pile of metal) and a destroyer is not suitable here.
                        ___________________________
                        Why a liner is not cheaper than a fighter is an interesting question.
                        Apparently, the security and monitoring systems, together with the aerobatic complex, are no less complex than the radar station

                        And, for the sake of interest, compare the RR Trent 500 thrust with the engines of the instigators
                        Quote: Alex_59
                        Shas this picture will turn my ideas about aviation

                        Picture - just in case, suddenly forgot

                        I hope the question: what is more difficult - the liner or the fighter - dropped by itself
                    3. adept666
                      adept666 20 June 2017 09: 20
                      0
                      There is a fact - a liner is not cheaper than a military aircraft

                      Oleg, it cannot be cheaper, for example, compare the cost of Airbus A380 (~ 480 million) and Rafal (from 90 to 120 million, depending on configuration). Those. Airbus is 4-5 times more expensive. But how many times is it bigger? The wing area of ​​the 380th is 845 sq. M., The rafal has 45,7 sq. M. The difference is almost 18 times! Add trim, multimedia to entertain passengers, etc. Any civilian side just bigger, more cost of its production, but not complexity! This does not say that it is easy to make, but the military side is more difficult to do unequivocally. The cost of the A380 program was estimated at about $ 12 billion at prices for 2005 and over time was about 10 years. The cost of the Rafal program (the cost of development, preparation for serial production and production equipment) at 1991 prices amounted to about $ 7 billion and almost 20 years in time. It is incorrect to compare Airbus with military vehicles, especially ours. The whole of Europe works for Airbus in fact, they also provide the main package of orders + Arab countries, for which Europe is a traditional partner in this field. We simply do not have such rich clients, and if we compare the purchasing power of Russia (and not even Russia, but our Moscow Region) and several dozen countries with more GDP than our country ... everything becomes obvious. They produce them, however, not like retailing at the bazaar, but under firm orders. Give our MO as much money as Airbus customers and we will have 100500 aircraft per day.
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 15 March 2017 21: 02
            +1
            The period will go down in history as the era of the plunder of a great country with special cynicism

            Cheers patriots on this site will not forgive you for such phrases ..)
      2. netslave
        netslave 13 March 2017 09: 00
        +6
        Shoigu and the Company with their declarations, promises and defense orders will come out just a laughing stock

        Comrades, I propose, without delaying a second, to begin collecting signatures for the appointment of Mr. Kaptsov of the RF Ministry of Defense! Already he will put things in order in the navy (and in the army too)! In general, this is some kind of stupid misunderstanding that this brave author of VO is still not a minister.
        Mr. Kaptsov, please voice your Program for the Revival of the Russian Navy for the next 5-10 years: what, how much, and on what money we will build.
        1. Santa Fe
          13 March 2017 09: 26
          +8
          Quote: netslave
          Comrades, I suggest, without hesitating for a second, to begin collecting signatures for appointing Mr. Kaptsov of the Russian Defense Ministry!

          First, collect enough signatures to remove the current leadership of the Ministry of Defense and other ministries.
          Quote: netslave
          and what money we will build on.

          Here on these

          The largest sailboat in history, 14 000 tons, height of masts - 100 meters, an elevator goes inside.
          Sailing Yacht A, owner - Andrey Melnichenko



          Ps. For 15 years, Russia sold hydrocarbons worth 3,5 trillion. dollars Where are they?

          Quote: netslave
          and what money we will build on.
          1. yehat
            yehat 13 March 2017 14: 43
            +3
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

            For 15 years, Russia has sold hydrocarbons worth 3,5 trillion. dollars where are they?

            shock Medvedev and Shuvalov. May be dropped on a heavy aircraft carrier.
            1. albert
              albert 13 March 2017 20: 57
              +2
              Quote: yehat
              shock Medvedev and Shuvalov. May drop on a heavy aircraft carrier

              The Russian Orthodox Church also needs to be shaken. I am sure that there will be money for a couple of AUGs among the priests.
              1. murriou
                murriou April 4 2017 22: 41
                0
                Quote: albert
                The Russian Orthodox Church also needs to be shaken. I am sure that there will be money for a couple of AUGs among the priests.

                Peter 1 did so at one time, it was enough for Russia's victory over Sweden in the Northern War - bell bronze for guns was much more useful than prayers.
          2. Reklastik
            Reklastik 13 March 2017 20: 21
            0
            For 15 years, Russia has sold hydrocarbons worth 3,5 trillion. Doll.
            I don’t understand, so I ask you to explain what and how much can be built for the fleet for this amount. Is it a lot or a little?
            1. albert
              albert 13 March 2017 20: 59
              +1
              Quote: Reklastik
              Много это или мало?

              The price of an aircraft carrier in the region of 8 billion dollars.
            2. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 13 March 2017 21: 23
              +1
              Quote: Reklastik
              For 15 years, Russia has sold hydrocarbons worth 3,5 trillion. Doll.
              I don’t understand, so I ask you to explain what and how much can be built for the fleet for this amount. Is it a lot or a little?

              This is how to build.
            3. opus
              opus 13 March 2017 23: 07
              +2
              Quote: Reklastik
              Много это или мало?

              little
              In 2014 (only in 2014), Germany exported to $ 1,41 trillion and imported $ 1,13 trillions, a balance of + of $ 271 billion.
              In 2014, Germany's GDP amounted to $ 3,87 trillion
              1,41 trillion per year
              Automobiles ($ 163 Billion). Spare parts for cars ($ 63,2 Billion). Packaged Medicines ($ 52 Billion). Aircraft, Helicopters, and / or Spacecraft ($ 31,8 Billion) and Blood request human or animal ($ 20,8 Billion).
              Top imports of Crude Oil ($ 53,3 Billion), Automobiles ($ 47,3 Billion), Auto Parts ($ 38,2 Billion), Petroleum Products ($ 31,1 Billion) and Computers ($ 27,7 Billion).

              At 2014, Japan exported $ 714 Billion and imported $ 754 Billion, the trade balance is negative $ 40 Billion.
              In 2014, Japan's GDP amounted to $ 4,6 trillion
              for 15 years of 2,3 trillion .... this is a trifle (at 307 billion per year)

              Japan imported into 2014: crude oil ($ 116 Billion), gas ($ 80,1 Billion), Petroleum products ($ 23,9 Billion)
    2. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 13 March 2017 08: 55
      0
      The emphasis is on Varshavyanka so far. Defensive capabilities are increasing. We have already had 5 pieces at the Black Sea Fleet since the transition of Crimea to the Russian Federation. And there are the KR and RCC and torpedoes ...
    3. seos
      seos 13 March 2017 09: 56
      +3
      The fleet is expensive and useless pleasure (expensive in construction and maintenance), its meaning is lost in the presence of strategic bombers, missile carriers, and missiles of different classes .... But money can be spent on more useful weapons systems. Let the Japanese lower the military budget into the sea ... although they don’t have a choice ... an island nation.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 13 March 2017 11: 46
        0
        Watching for what. Here England and Japan and India depend on the supply of raw materials by sea. How will you protect? Or the task is the occupation of the territory.
      2. yehat
        yehat 13 March 2017 14: 44
        +2
        Yeah, Khrushchev also thought so, and after the Cuban crisis began to build, capable of piling the NATO fleet.
      3. 3danimal
        3danimal 15 March 2017 21: 06
        0
        Let the Japanese lower the military budget into the sea ... although they don’t have a choice ... an island nation.

        But they are 3 times richer than us ... And they are ABLE to build modern ships of such classes. But we "forgot how" and under the current officials will not learn. They will show beautiful animations of future fleets on TV (this is cheap) and promise.
  4. DM51
    DM51 13 March 2017 07: 52
    +5
    India, China, Japan, Great Britain, Germany and even Israel (they certainly got almost the entire fleet for nothing), not to mention the USA - everyone is steadily increasing their Navy, only we are marking time, and most importantly, there’s no gap
    1. yehat
      yehat 13 March 2017 14: 54
      +1
      but how can you not see, type in the search engine Milovka or a number of other similar objects and you will see (not) our bright future.
  5. Okolotochny
    Okolotochny 13 March 2017 08: 13
    14
    Oleg, article plus, interesting. But ..., could not resist the temptation, could not help but kick Russia.
    1. Santa Fe
      13 March 2017 08: 48
      18
      Quote: Okolotochny
      Could not not kick Russia.

      Not Russia, but the thieves' regime headed by the guarantor

      Kleptocracy (from ancient Greek. κλέπτειν - to steal and κράτος - domination, power; literally “the power of thieves”) - a government controlled by fraudsters who use the advantages of power to increase personal wealth and political influence by plundering public funds, sometimes even without trying to imitate proper honest service to the people.

      It is just such an imitation that all obron-orders and promises to restore the army and navy are. The results are obvious. Compare at least with Japan.

      Will not. Otherwise, how to explain the obvious? It is better about Syria

      And Russia is kicking these:

      - In Paris, I live the seventh year. When I was nine, my parents sent me to the summer camp of the Ecole des Roches school in Normandy. First for a month, then for half a year, and in 11 for years I moved to full training in France. For the weekend of the boarding went to Paris to the apartment to friends. Currently I live in Paris permanently. It is funny to me when they say that I should live in Russia!

      - E. Peskova, daughter of the press secretary of the President of the Russian Federation
      https://www.gazeta.ru/lifestyle/style/2017/03/a_1
      0559117.shtml # page5
      1. inkass_98
        inkass_98 13 March 2017 09: 04
        +5
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Not Russia, but the thieves' regime headed by the guarantor

        Well, come on, Oleg, move forward to the guarantors or defense ministers, in case of emergency. Teach everyone how to build a country, army and navy to revive. At the same time, show how to deal with theft correctly.
        It only seems to me that all these words.
        1. Santa Fe
          13 March 2017 09: 18
          11
          Quote: inkass_98
          So let's, Oleg, advance to the guarantors or to the ministers of defense, as a last resort.

          - Daddy, will I become a minister?
          - No son, the minister has his son (son-in-law?)
          Quote: inkass_98
          how to equip the country, to revive the army and navy.

          I am sure that in Russia there are many competent and intelligent people who could steer no worse than these, irreplaceable

          The result is obvious - compare Shoigu's attempts - with updating the armies and fleets of other developed countries
          Quote: inkass_98
          It only seems to me that all these words.

          I think everything will end early and late, like 100 years ago. Such a throne comes off only with ass skin.
          1. Alex_59
            Alex_59 13 March 2017 09: 33
            +1
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            The result is obvious - compare Shoigu's attempts - with updating the armies and fleets of other developed countries

            Compare. For example: 274 new combat aircraft, 145 combat attack helicopters. For 2012-2016 years.
            Do many armies in developed countries get more? What countries are these interesting.
            1. Santa Fe
              13 March 2017 10: 04
              13
              Quote: Alex_59
              Do many armies of developed countries get more?

              Almost any developed country G8 can allow hundreds of aircraft, but they do not see that need. The military budget of Germany - only 2% of GDP. Aircraft industry is normal - Airbus collects 400 airliners per year. Breo - Thales and BAE will gladly accept any order. If necessary - they will build what they want and in any quantities. Military power - a consequence of the economy and industry

              In essence, the answer is the pace of change from Shoigu - children's games against the background of the USA and China
              1. Alex_59
                Alex_59 13 March 2017 10: 20
                +7
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Almost any developed country G8 can allow hundreds of aircraft, but do not see the need

                We can also afford thousands of aircraft. Only bread will rise in price by 1,5 times. No problem. But you will still be unhappy. Now you are groaning "ah, we are behind on rearmament." And then you will groan "oh, the bread has risen sharply." Shoigu does the right thing that he doesn’t see people like you - there is nothing to be distracted by noise.
                Or do you want both bread and thousands of planes at the same time? Kindergarten. There are practically no countries that painlessly sit on two, three, or two chairs at the same time with comfort. USA maybe. China in part. The rest stupidly prefer the “crunch of French rolls” to some hordes of armadillos there. And they’re doing it right. All save on something. The Japanese, praised by you in this article, with their fleet (praised as you deserve it, I agree) save on ground forces and partly on aviation. Where is their Shoigu? Let him break for the degradation of the Japanese land forces.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                In essence, the answer is the pace of change from Shoigu - children's games against the background of the USA and China

                Again verbiage. There was a specific question and a specific answer. Which countries have collected over the same 5 years more combat aircraft of these classes than we are? USA and China? I won’t even check - let it be. So we are in third place? Not bad for a country that has GDP at 12 place in the world. And you are still not happy. Well, I don’t know then ...
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 13 March 2017 13: 31
                +3
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Almost any developed G8 country can afford hundreds of aircraft, but do not see the need for it.

                Ja, ja ... Germans especially do not see the need for new airplanes.
                So, in the German Air Force, out of 216 Tornado and Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft, only 69 are in flight condition. Of the five received Airbus Military A400M military transport aircraft, only one is able to take off the ground. According to the report, 71 aircraft are in a state of repair or modernization and they can become combat ready in a fairly short time. The reasons for this decline in airworthiness are caused by the obsolescence of platforms, lack of spare parts and “childhood illnesses”. A fleet of 41 S-160 Transall military transport aircraft "keeps fit," since 30 units are listed, and 19 of them are in flight condition.
                Of the 300 helicopters of the armed forces of Germany, only a third can be operated. The Bundeswehr has 43 heavy transport helicopters Sikorsky CH-53, of which 18 fly. Concerning 42 Tiger combat helicopters, it is reported that there are 27, 12 of them in flight condition. With the NH90 helicopter, the situation is as follows - there are a total of 48 units, of which 29 are in combat, but only nine are flying. A difficult situation has developed with naval aviation, which is armed with 21 Westland Sea Lynx Mk 88A and 21 Westland Sea King Mk 41 helicopters, of which only five and four are serviceable.

                German tornadoes are the same age as our Su-24.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                The aircraft industry is normal - Airbus collects 400 airliners per year.

                400 buses will not replace an armored personnel carrier.
                Airbus and still can not bring to mind the A400M. The last crash of the plane on which the German Minister of Defense flew was an example. The three leading European motor builders, including Rolls-Royce, could not make a normal engine (more precisely, a gearbox). laughing
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                If necessary, they will build what they want in any quantities.

                Yeah ... by condensing the area, equipment and workers from the vacuum.
          2. inkass_98
            inkass_98 13 March 2017 09: 38
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            I think everything is early and it will end late, like 100 years ago.

            That is unlikely. Personally, I have before my eyes a very fresh example of a coup in a neighboring Ruin. Very worthy people came to power, yes. I just do not feel envy of the standard of living and the “reforms” that are taking place there.
            1. Santa Fe
              13 March 2017 10: 16
              +8
              Quote: inkass_98
              Personally, I have before my eyes a completely fresh example of a coup in the neighboring Ruin. Very decent people came to power, yes

              And you thought coups and pogroms make good people?)))))

              And why does everyone think that after the revolution should be good?)) For how many years has the civil war of the white / red lasted?
              1. inkass_98
                inkass_98 13 March 2017 12: 30
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                How many years did the white / red civil war last?

                It actually lasted 5 years. So what?
                I know very well what kind of people are preparing coups and who comes to power later. Ruin is only the freshest example of this action. And something (apparently, education) tells me that the war there will not end there for a long time, it will not be in 5 years for the simple reason that the Reds had the motivation to end the massacre, and the Svidomo did not have such motivation. Especially for those who warm their hands on supplies.
        2. Stirbjorn
          Stirbjorn 13 March 2017 10: 28
          +7
          Quote: inkass_98
          Well, come on, Oleg, move forward to the guarantors or defense ministers, in case of emergency. Teach everyone how to build a country, army and navy to revive. At the same time, show how to deal with theft correctly.
          Vaughn Glazyev is still not allowed to the financial block, and he has his own exit program. Well, what a famous figure. And here you want to let a person from outside. For a long time in our guarantors people were not nominated from the system? - funny!
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 13 March 2017 10: 35
            +3
            Quote: Stirbjorn
            Glazyev is still not allowed to the financial block, and he has a program for exit

            - "a new program has been released ..." wassat
            - and rightly so that they are not admitted. Theoreoeg he negative

            Quote: Stirbjorn
            For a long time in our guarantors people were not nominated from the system?

            - Borya the Drunk was "not out of the system" ... missed you, anyway? wink
            1. Stirbjorn
              Stirbjorn 13 March 2017 13: 07
              +5
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              - Borya the Drunk was "not out of the system" ... missed you, anyway?

              This Boris was not from the system ?! 30 years in the CPSU fellow
              Member of the Council of the Union of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR 10-11 convocations (1979-1989); Member of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR (1984-1988). People's Deputy of the USSR and member of the Council of Nationalities of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR (1989-1990). People's Deputy of the RSFSR and Chairman of the Supreme Council of the RSFSR (1990-1991).

              Member of the CPSU (1961-1990), member of the Central Committee of the CPSU (1981-1990); in the party he held the posts of first secretary of the Sverdlovsk regional committee of the CPSU (1976-1985), secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (1985-1986) and first secretary of the Moscow city committee of the CPSU (1985-1987).
              1. Cat man null
                Cat man null 13 March 2017 15: 05
                0
                Quote: Stirbjorn
                This Boris was not from the system ?! 30 years in the CPSU

                - remember how he went to power ... "Boris, you're wrong" (TM) laughing
      2. Okolotochny
        Okolotochny 13 March 2017 09: 38
        11
        Oleg, last year I remember that there was a “felling” at VO regarding the transfer of actor Alexei Serebryakov to permanent residence in Canada. Some members of the forum spoke in his defense. I was opposed, not by the fact of moving, but by the fact of his "accompanying" words about Russia and its people. Specifically, for Peskov’s daughter - let her live wherever she wants, her choice (you, in my opinion, you EMNIP live far away from the Motherland). Slop does not pour on Russia? Do not pour. Well, okay. In his youth he listened to the song "Russians" of the group "St. Petersburg" - "We are so confused around the world, who have passed the whole world, who are in Europe, who are in America, who are in Russia since childhood. We seem so different, the pain in all have one chest ... "
        And for the thieves' gang - Oleg, when you write articles, you respond to criticism, ask for confirmation of the comments. You have been charged with crimes (in fact, right?), So confirm your conclusions? I, with the same success, can accuse the US leadership (where you live) of war crimes (the Middle East, Ukraine, South Ossetia, the former Yugoslavia), where the victims are counted according to the most conservative estimates of hundreds of thousands of lives. And if you count according to the rules of "lost profit" (how many new lives would give them), then the Nuremberg loop would be equal to the reward for them. And my position is more justified, more than enough facts - "Powell test tube".
        1. Santa Fe
          13 March 2017 10: 22
          +8
          Quote: Okolotochny
          Oleg, last year I remember in VO there was a "felling" about the actor Alexei Serebryakov moving to relocate to Canada for permanent residence in Canada.

          Among the funniest stories I have heard is actor Sergei Ostapenko moving to Miami
          (played the role of Malchish-Kibalchish)

          Taki sold burzhuinam for a jar of jam and a pack of cookies)))
          Quote: Okolotochny
          I, with the same success, can accuse the leadership of the USA (where you live) of war crimes

          US leadership acts solely in the interests of their country
          1. Okolotochny
            Okolotochny 13 March 2017 10: 33
            +7
            Well, yes, on one side of the scale is America’s Interests, on the other the tears of millions of children.
            1. spravochnik
              spravochnik 13 March 2017 12: 51
              +1
              Yes, that you attacked a person. He is tormented by one contagious and very unpleasant disease. It is called the "emigrant complex." It is especially common among those who moved to permanent residence in the USA and Canada.
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 13 March 2017 12: 36
            +6
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            US leadership acts solely in the interests of their country

            OLEG! DO NOT DECLINE TO BANALITY !!! am
            For such phrases, you, as an intelligent person, should be ashamed: it would be ridiculous if it acted in the interests of another state. Why then would the people of the United States need it !? fool
            1. Santa Fe
              13 March 2017 20: 17
              +5
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              it would be absurd if it acted in the interests of another state

              Well, about the leadership of the Russian Federation, I'm not sure
              1. andrey682006
                andrey682006 13 March 2017 21: 47
                0
                Does your opinion have good reason?
                Or a conspiracy theory from the pages of the yellow press?
  6. Kudrevkn
    Kudrevkn 13 March 2017 09: 09
    +4
    In terms of choosing the Navy Development Strategy, the Japanese can only be envied! But in Russia, as there was no “king in the head” - everything “hope for God and maybe God”? Here, I absolutely agree with the Author - with "partisanism" (who is what a big broom or a new broom?) And "Urya stormtrooper" it's time to finish - we need thoughtful systematic and thorough work to implement the Shipbuilding Program (strategy), and not "yaw at the rate "like" g ... but in the hole "?
    1. andrey682006
      andrey682006 13 March 2017 21: 52
      0
      Yes, of course we need such a program.
      So that there would be enough money to reflect all the adversaries and the industry to keep / develop and science with technology.
      Do you also propose selling oligarch yachts and finding money from oil sold? And to select them, even if oil revenues went to medicine, science, roads. In the orphanages will we look for?
  7. Maratyurist
    Maratyurist 13 March 2017 09: 44
    +4
    They have microelectronics technology ... and we must have electronic suppression. No wonder they develop PLO, there only our submarines can cause harm, and irreparable ...
    1. Kudrevkn
      Kudrevkn 13 March 2017 11: 20
      0
      Take into account the bitter experience of the Second World War - American submarines inflicted more on the Japanese Navy than all other types of troops!
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 13 March 2017 15: 52
        0
        Quote: KudrevKN
        Take into account the bitter experience of the Second World War - American submarines inflicted more on the Japanese Navy than all other types of troops!

        EMNIP, in 1945 aviation seized the palm. Moreover, both the naval and the army - USAAF with their mine productions practically paralyzed shipping. Landing mines even with the B-29.
  8. Leeder
    Leeder 13 March 2017 09: 53
    +3
    In the Tsushima battle, as during the battle in the Yellow Sea, Russian and Japanese squadrons fought. Consisting of equally powerful ships built at the same time, at the same technical level.

    Why is it at the same technical level?
    The Japanese had more recent armadillos, all of them built in English, the leader of the shipbuilder at that time. The Russians, on the other hand, were a hodgepodge of mostly junk, with crews recruited from the pine forest, moreover, after a difficult trip.
    Our squadron did not have a single chance ...
    1. libivs
      libivs 13 March 2017 10: 07
      +4
      To this it is worth adding an excellent network of centers for basing the forces of the Japanese fleet, which at times increased its combat effectiveness ... And what did we have? But practically nothing.
      1. Leeder
        Leeder 13 March 2017 10: 21
        +3
        Yes, there is a lot to add, “soaked” pyroxylin, poor command, haste in preparation, etc.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 12: 12
          +3
          Quote: LeeDer
          soaked pyroxylin

          There was no :))) Fantasy Novikov-Surf
          Quote: LeeDer
          poor command

          But what is bad? :) The fact that Felkerozam did not live to see the battle, and Rozhdestvensky was knocked out in less than an hour of battle?
      2. yarobot
        yarobot 13 March 2017 11: 27
        +1
        If nothing, then why did they hopelessly enter the battle? Why was it to distill the fleet across the floor of the globe? Leading people should have been aware of this no worse than you!
        1. Leeder
          Leeder 13 March 2017 12: 03
          +3
          "Urapatrioty" have always been.
    2. unknown
      unknown 13 March 2017 11: 03
      +1
      The Japanese squadron included: one newest armadillo (with Krupp armor), two new (with Harvey), one obsolete (not covered by a belt tip), most of the medium artillery on deck behind shields, non-firing mounts of the main caliber, low speed - 15 knots ) and six cruisers, which for some reason are considered to be the best armored in the world at that time (fire performance is less than that of the Russian 6000-ton armored decks, speed from 15 (!) to 17 knots, and the first two also have disgusting quality armor : fragile).
      The explosiveness of pyroxylin is 1,45 times higher than that of "shimoza". So furosiki loved by Andrei from Chelyabinsk are shells of one battle. Exclusively all countries, including Japan, continued to improve the armor-piercing shell. And the British generally returned to black powder for shells above 6 inches.
      Do we correctly assess the events of that war? And what kind of war was that? For example, an attempt to break through Wittgeft is very similar to an attempt to break through the Servers.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 12: 09
        +2
        Quote: ignoto
        The explosiveness of pyroxylin is 1,45 times higher than that of "shimoza".

        But shimoza higher brisance
        Quote: ignoto
        Exclusively all countries, including Japan, continued to improve the armor-piercing shell

        Wrong. The British, observing the effectiveness of the Japanese fire in Tsushima, switched to semi-armor-piercing with an instant fuse. Which, incidentally, had a great impact on them in Jutland.
      2. Leeder
        Leeder 13 March 2017 12: 12
        +2
        speed from 15 (!) to 17 knots

        What's the point? The squadron included transporters, and the speed of the squadron was equal to the speed of the slowest ship.
        The explosiveness of pyroxylin is 1,45 times higher than that of "shimoza".

        Again, the point is that if very often due to the increased humidity of pyroxylin, most of the shells did not explode.

        I have long read Novikov-Surf "Tsushima" there is a lot written about it ...
        1. spravochnik
          spravochnik 14 March 2017 10: 33
          +1
          Quote: LeeDer
          speed from 15 (!) to 17 knots

          What's the point? The squadron included transporters, and the speed of the squadron was equal to the speed of the slowest ship.
          The explosiveness of pyroxylin is 1,45 times higher than that of "shimoza".

          Again, the point is that if very often due to the increased humidity of pyroxylin, most of the shells did not explode.
          I have long read Novikov-Surf "Tsushima" there is a lot written about it ...

          You do not read Novikov-Surf, but. for example, Kostenko "On the Eagle in Tsushima". He is not only a participant in the battle, but also a shipbuilding engineer. Kostenko specifically writes that the cause of the failure of the Russian shells was FUSES. Russian shells had very tight bottom fuses, which did not cock at all when flying through unarmored parts of ships or cocked already after breaking through both sides. If they fell into the armor, then they exploded and caused significant damage. The Japanese used shells with fuses of two types: some were used for shooting and had very sensitive fuses (exploded when hit by water or hitting rigging), others had a tighter fuse, but even they, unlike Russian shells, fired on unarmored parts.
      3. 27091965
        27091965 14 March 2017 10: 53
        +1
        Quote: ignoto
        , low speed - 15 knots) and six cruisers, which for some reason are considered the best armored in the world at that time (fire performance is less than that of the Russian 6000-armored decks, speed from 15 (!) to 17 knots,


        "Using local coal, the Japanese fleet can go into battle at a speed of 16-16,5 knots, while using Wales coal at a speed of 18-18,5 knots." The Naval Power of Japan. 1902
      4. murriou
        murriou 14 March 2017 11: 18
        +1
        Quote: ignoto
        less firepower than Russian 6000-ton armored decks

        You have already been publicly flogged for this nonsense wherever you managed to express it.
        But * especially talented * don't learn from anything and never.

        People who are able to believe in the veracity of Rudnev's reports in specialized forums, in our time, should be kept in a separate enclosure.
        But even if you believe Rudnev, the fact that the “Varangian” was beaten half to death in the battle against mainly “Asama” wasn’t disappearing, and the enemy didn’t pay for it.
        Here you have a comparison of fire performance in kind.

        Yes, and in Tsushima, the result seems to speak for itself, no matter how hard anyone tries to wave their fists 100+ years after the fight and beat the wretched Japanese ships, which for some reason smashed to smithereens the beautiful Russian squadron with almost no loss for themselves.

        And if you recall the reality, then the Japanese rank 1 cruisers had 2 * 2 = 4 guns 8 "and 14 guns 6", i.e. in each of the calibers the volley is slightly larger than that of the "Varyag" with its 12 * 6 ", and in total the superiority of the Japanese is 2,25 times.
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 12: 10
      +2
      Quote: LeeDer
      with crews recruited from the pine forest

      Well, the crews were just normal
      Quote: LeeDer
      Moreover, after a difficult trip

      This is yes.
      Quote: LeeDer
      Our squadron did not have a single chance ...

      Alas it is true
  9. libivs
    libivs 13 March 2017 09: 56
    +4
    And maybe this is not bad for us. The revival of the legendary Japanese fleet can be a good counterbalance to the United States, and China too, since we are not able to lay claim to leadership in the APR at the current moment, even theoretically. Secondly, a powerful fleet is a prerequisite for sovereign foreign policy. Thirdly, the Japanese really say very little, but they do a lot without our domestic, which has already become traditional, fraud ...
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 13 March 2017 12: 25
      +2
      Japan in deep alliance with the USA
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 13 March 2017 12: 47
      +7
      Quote: libivs
      And maybe this is not bad for us.

      And what, japanes in our allies?
      Maybe they abandoned the Northern territories?
      Maybe a peace treaty has already been concluded?
      Therefore, no need to verbally. The Japanese fleet is a real threat to our Pacific Fleet. And given its anti-submarine orientation, and the strategic nuclear forces of the country.
      And China so far only threatens, but has never fought at sea (in recent history), unlike the Japan, who conducted an unforgettable operation to destroy the Yankee fleet in Pearl Harbor. And if they had destroyed their fuel supplies, it would be possible to say goodbye to the US Navy until better times.
      So, samurai - it is always dangerous, because it is a war!
      IMHO.
      1. libivs
        libivs 13 March 2017 13: 45
        +1
        We still have an adversary, that one is the USA. When Japan gains sovereignty, this will be another conversation, and options are possible here. Under the leadership of the United States, there are no such options for sure and Japan is already automatically an adversary like the US satellite.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 15 March 2017 21: 18
          +1
          We still have an adversary, that one is the USA.

          The leaders of the Russian Federation will not agree with you. They do not buy $ 30 billion a year in treasury bonds from the enemy (with a budget of $ 260 billion and a reduction in spending on melitsin and science).
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 15 March 2017 21: 41
            0
            Quote: 3danimal
            $ 30 billion a year of treasury bonds are not bought from the enemy

            - start checking
            - 30 billion / year * 15 years = 450 billion. So many “papers” would have to be in the Russian Federation if what you said was true
            - and here is how things are in reality:

            Moral: do not lie ... or, if you lie, then more accurately and thoroughly yes
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 15 March 2017 21: 56
              +2
              Duc something little ..
            2. 3danimal
              3danimal 19 March 2017 21: 08
              0
              start checking
              - 30 billion / year * 15 years = 450 billion

              Your thoughts are still horses, however)
              I said only about one year, 2016. And yet, try to refute the claim that the Russian authorities are not preparing for war with the United States.
              1. Cat man null
                Cat man null 19 March 2017 21: 14
                0
                Quote: 3danimal
                I said only about one year, 2016

                - yah? You said "30 billion / year," without specification wink

                Quote: 3danimal
                ... try to refute the claim that the Russian authorities are not preparing for war with the United States

                - You are again slurred ... as usual, however request
                - Have you even understood what you asked?
  10. ADmA_RUS
    ADmA_RUS 13 March 2017 10: 21
    0
    The update is unnoticeable, without any fuss and promises to build N ships by ... the fifteenth year.

    The author apparently reads the entire Japanese press, including Japanese.
  11. Rakti-kali
    Rakti-kali 13 March 2017 10: 22
    0
    The update is unnoticeable, without any fuss and promises to build N ships by ... the fifteenth year.

    Citizen drinker, how many tank armies does Japan have? What is the length land borders with countries pursuing an aggressive anti-Japanese policy?
  12. Operator
    Operator 13 March 2017 10: 30
    +3
    The author is frightened by Japan of the 1905 model of the year laughing

    China drives the Far East.
  13. Shadow shooter
    Shadow shooter 13 March 2017 11: 15
    +3
    Well they build cool ships of course. And the Chinese are building great ships now. The naval arms race is right now between them. And let them arrange epic sea battles among themselves. The United States may or may not help. We will be happy to observe this from the outside) Naturally, we will probably be rooting for the Whales. But at the same time, our plants will rivet and put on the wing combat aircraft, Varshavyanka, RTOs with Caliber, and I really hope the watchdogs and in the near future (I just dream) super destroyers !!!!!!! And the Japanese fleet can in no way threaten a great land power. If there is an option to bluntly deprive the Japanese super duper ships of their home base in the form of islands, planting a few mushrooms there)))))
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 15 March 2017 21: 22
      0
      If there is an option to bluntly deprive the Japanese super duper ships of their home base in the form of islands, planting a few mushrooms there)))))

      Another apologist for nuclear war on the couch)
      Read above, I do not want to explain a second time ..
  14. Butchcassidy
    Butchcassidy 13 March 2017 11: 38
    +4
    Therefore, the Japanese perceive so painfully the development of defensive infrastructure in the Kuril Islands. After all, no one seriously takes the issue of the "return of the islands" by Japan by force. Now China is the main enemy of Japan, but this does not mean that Japan is not working on this issue. It is necessary to make organizational conclusions.
  15. Brewer
    Brewer 13 March 2017 12: 24
    +1
    I wonder what Japan could build without the help of the states? For example, being in the same isolation in this regard as Russia is now. A couple of junks? Armament, radars and missiles - staff, helicopters - Apaches, airplanes: f16, v15, v35 on the way. There are only Japanese chips. So full symbiosis)))))
    1. ukoft
      ukoft 13 March 2017 13: 01
      +1
      the fact is that Japan at one time was forbidden to engage in certain areas in the development of weapons. not so long ago forgot about this ban.
      technologically, they can afford a lot, but why spend money on development if you can take it under license. as far as I know, they made aircraft under the Ameikan license. I can’t tell you for engines and radars, but engines can also master much more.
      being an island nation they devote more to the navy than to the land. they also have quite serious air forces. Today, China does not deal with their F15 Japanese spill. only new arrivals su35, but few of them.
    2. opus
      opus 13 March 2017 23: 22
      +2
      Quote: Brewer
      I wonder what Japan could build without the help of the states?

      Yeah, the shipbuilding companies are Sasebo (Sasebo), Mitsubishi (Nagasaki), Kawasaki (Kobe), Universal (Kawasaki) is that such a trifle?



      Southern California Edison aims to cool Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) $ 7,6 billion dollars due to faulty steam generators that led to the decommissioning of the San Onofra Nuclear Power Plant (California) in June of 2013.

      MV Tønsberg built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries for Wilh. Wilhelmsen Group.


      Cruise ship DIAMOND PRINCESS / SAPPHIRE PRINCESS MITSUBISHI HEAVY INDUSTRIES
      1. Brewer
        Brewer 14 March 2017 07: 31
        +1
        Quote: opus
        Quote: Brewer
        I wonder what Japan could build without the help of the states?

        Yeah, the shipbuilding companies are Sasebo (Sasebo), Mitsubishi (Nagasaki), Kawasaki (Kobe), Universal (Kawasaki) is that such a trifle?



        I will clarify. The Japanese can build a ship. And probably outstanding. All such people live on the island for hundreds of years. But the fillings and offal they all probably have none of their own. Otherwise, bi Aegis, SM3 and phalanxes on ships would not have stood
  16. Leeder
    Leeder 13 March 2017 12: 28
    0
    [Quote]
    There was no :))) Fantasy Novikov-Surf [/ quote]
    Perhaps he came up with, but that same Wiki writes: -
    [Quote]
    In 1904, because of the danger of spontaneous combustion of pyroxylin, the rank of the Russian Admiralty made the decision in shells designed for the 2nd Pacific Squadron to increase its humidity to 30%. As a result, part of the shells did not burst even when hit by a target, which contributed to the defeat of the Russian fleet under Tsushima. [/ Quote]
    [Quote]
    poor command [/ quote]
    But what is bad? :) The fact that Felkerozam did not live to see the battle, and Rozhdestvensky was knocked out in less than an hour of battle? [/ Quote]
    Rather, Rozhdestvensky did not have any battle plan, but stupidly solved the tasks of the strategic plan without thinking about tactics.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 13: 55
      0
      Quote: LeeDer
      Perhaps he came up with, but what does the same Wiki write

      Well, that’s right, this is a common quote from Novikov-Priboy, who, with reference to Krylov (more precisely, in the Tsushima Novikov-Priboy allegedly quoted Krylov) that after shelling the rebel fortress Sveaborg with Tsushima shells from the battleship Slava there were many unexploded shells and then everything was opened. Only one moment ... "Glory" did not fire at Sveaborg. He was included in the squad aimed at pacifying the fortress, but since the crew was unreliable, the battleship did not participate in the pacification action.
      Well, such "little things" that the normal humidity of pyroxylin is exactly 25-30% and it breaks quite normal at this humidity, and that, generally speaking, 305 mm 2TOE shells were equipped not with pyroxylin, but with pyroxylin smokeless powder - I I’m silent about all this :)
      Quote: LeeDer
      Rather, Rozhdestvensky had no battle plan.

      If you mean some tactical maneuvering, then such a plan did not and could not be, since there is no plan in which the squadron is able to effectively fight an enemy that is XNUMX times faster than it. At the same time, the analysis of the battle in ZhM clearly showed that as long as our EDBs maintain their order, the Japanese will do nothing wrong with them. Hence the command "Go to Vladivostok" and the order that in the event of a lead column not the next admiral leads, but the ship following the lead ship
      In general, Rozhestvensky did everything right - he did not take into account only the new Yapov land mines, but he could not know about them
  17. Simfy
    Simfy 13 March 2017 14: 46
    +3
    It would be interesting to read about the Turkish fleet and compare the balance in the Black Sea.
  18. Leeder
    Leeder 13 March 2017 15: 18
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Well, that’s right, this is a common quote from Novikov-Priboy, who, with reference to Krylov (more precisely, in the Tsushima Novikov-Priboy allegedly quoted Krylov) that after shelling the rebel fortress Sveaborg with Tsushima shells from the battleship Slava there were many unexploded shells and then everything was opened. Only one moment ... "Glory" did not fire at Sveaborg.

    An interesting version, but there is other information.
    During the Tsushima naval battle, explosions of trouble-free Japanese shells, in addition to direct high-explosive and fragmentation effects, poisoned Russian sailors with toxic gases (military explosives) formed during the explosion of melinite. Russian shells, equipped with damp, during the long transition from Kronstadt to the Tsushima Strait with pyroxylin, had up to 65% of failures.

    After the Russo-Japanese War, all pyroxylin shells were removed from the ships and transferred to the coastal artillery, where storage conditions ensured that the required humidity was maintained and had to be gradually reloaded by other explosives.
    By the time Finland gained independence in 1918, a large number of pyroxylin shells remained on coastal batteries in the new country. Obviously, household Finns replaced the pyroxylin in shells with another explosive, and the seized pyroxylin was handed over to their sappers.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    If you mean some tactical maneuvering, then such a plan did not and could not be, since there is no plan in which the squadron is able to effectively fight an enemy that is XNUMX times faster than it. At the same time, the analysis of the battle in ZhM clearly showed that as long as our EDBs maintain their order, the Japanese will do nothing wrong with them.

    The trouble is that the Generals are always preparing for the last war. As soon as the enemy begins to conduct strange actions in battle, this should immediately strain the commander.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 18: 24
      0
      Quote: LeeDer
      An interesting version, but there is other information.

      For the most part, your information is false. For instance:
      Quote: LeeDer
      The Russian shells equipped with damp, pyroxylin, during the long transition from Kronstadt to the Tsushima Strait, had up to 65% of failures.

      The fact is that pyroxylin can’t be easily put into a shell. Pyroxylin is a chemically active substance that will interact with projectile steel. Therefore, pyroxylin was placed in a shell being hermetically packed in a special brass case / case. Naturally, being hermetically sealed, he could not damp.
      Quote: LeeDer
      After the Russo-Japanese War, all pyroxylin shells were removed from the ships and transferred to coastal artillery.

      Of course, pyroxylin shells were on ships. But, I repeat, large-caliber shells were equipped with smokeless powder, not pyroxylin

      Quote: LeeDer
      The trouble is that the Generals are always preparing for the last war.

      It was not a past, but a current war. At the same time, I repeat, there were no tactics with which a slow-moving squadron could impose its will on a fast-moving one.
      Quote: LeeDer
      As soon as the enemy begins to conduct strange actions in battle, this should immediately strain the commander.

      Strange actions - what is this?
      Before the Russian-Japanese Englishman fleet maneuvers were carried out three times. In all three cases, a high-speed convoy of battleships, having an advantage of 1,5, hardly 2 knots of speed, completely defeated the opposing low-speed fleet. Togo exceeded Christmas knots by 5 minimum.
      In other words, it should have ended quickly - crossing T and coven. Instead, Togo managed to substitute Rozhestvensky with his famous loop in full. For 15 minutes, the flagship of Mikasa received a comparable number of hits, with how many the entire Japanese squadron rake in 4 hours of battle at Shantung. Then Togo gets a positional advantage with which nothing can be done, he pushes his head on the Russian column, but his armadillos move much faster than the Russians, so he kind of “flies” forward - you need to wait and then try to trim the tail of the Japanese column. But at this time, Rozhdestvensky was seriously wounded and Suvorov was knocked out of action. "Cut the tail" to the Japanese Bukhvostov on Alexander 3 and almost succeeded - 1 Japanese armored cruiser was knocked out of the line, and Fuji got an extremely dangerous hit in the tower and could explode. All because the Japanese were forced to turn everything all of a sudden and flee from the Russian squadron, showing her poop.
      So what strange actions are we talking about? :)
    2. murriou
      murriou 14 March 2017 13: 20
      +1
      Quote: LeeDer
      poisoned Russian sailors with poisonous gases (military agents)

      This nonsense proves only the fierce illiteracy of the creature who wrote this nonsense, which you called information. Where did you get this? Throw the byak and do not touch it anymore.

      A man who knows. what is military warfare, is not capable of taking such nonsense seriously.
      If you are capable - I categorically sympathize with you.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 March 2017 14: 09
        0
        Well, strictly speaking, the "exhaust" of the shimoza is poisonous, they were dying from it. Of course, he is not a combat agent
        1. murriou
          murriou 14 March 2017 14: 24
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          the "exhaust" of the shimoza is poisonous, they were dying from it.

          They died from gas poisoning in a fire, while the shimoza was to blame as a source of tanning, but the source of poison could also be ordinary paint, it gives no less disgust when burning, whoever has observed this will understand. From the burning of the same pyroxylin powder they died in the same way.

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Of course, he is not a combat agent

          Here I am talking about.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 March 2017 15: 13
            0
            Quote: murriou
            Dying of gas poisoning in a fire

            Yes, as if not only. Offhand - Semyonov’s memoirs, he pointed out that when a chimous shell exploded, people nearby could get severe poisoning right up to death - inhaling the gases from the gap. Something of this is also recalled from the chemical properties of melinite.
            But in any case, I agree with you - not OB :)
  19. bk0010
    bk0010 13 March 2017 16: 07
    0
    Quote: vanek77
    And only we have silence, all projects have been sent to the next weapons program, we are building only kayaks.
    Or maybe it’s right now: as I understand it, we have not really decided yet what fleet to build and even what to build it from (engines, Polement-Redoubt, etc.). Therefore (IMHO, of course) now it makes sense all the tasks that can be solved from the coast or from the air can be solved from the coast or from the air (coastal means are cheaper, and the Air Force is more universal), and for the fleet to build ships so far only for urgent replacement, repair existing and revive the auxiliary fleet. And after 5 years, when it becomes more or less clear, lay large ships. Errors in creating them are very expensive.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 18: 26
      +2
      Quote: bk0010
      and for the fleet to build ships so far only for urgent replacement,

      By 2030, we will urgently need to replace 1 nuclear missile cruiser, 3 conventional RKRs, a bunch of BOD and destroyers, not counting the mass of the submarines Schuka and Antey. Than?
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 13 March 2017 21: 45
        0
        Weird question. That come up with. 13 years is a long time.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 March 2017 06: 22
          +2
          Quote: bk0010
          Weird question. So that come up

          You can come up with anything you like, but a ship invented by the present will not replace. But with the construction of ships, everything is much worse. 13 years is complete about nothing; with us, the GPV 2011-2020 originally intended to build 8 Ash-trees, in fact, in the yard of 2017, and we have one. In order to build at least a dozen destroyers to replace the existing RKD BOD and EM (which is not enough), they had to be laid down yesterday, but there is none of this.
          The problem lies precisely in the fact that today's pace of construction does not nearly ensure the maintenance of the current fleet at least at the current level
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 15 March 2017 00: 31
            0
            That is, you think that the question "what exactly needs to be built" is not worth it?
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 March 2017 09: 11
              0
              No, not worth it. This is a question for the solution of which everything had existed a long time ago, and even if there was nothing, it could be resolved in about a month and a half or two
  20. A1845
    A1845 13 March 2017 16: 17
    0
    In this scheme, “melee destroyers” cover “senior in rank” - ships equipped with the Aegis system, which are responsible for intercepting targets at high altitudes.
    No one else has such a competent system, even the US Navy

    Does the organization of near-season air defense really require the allocation of a separate class of ships of 7 tons? Low altitude air defense systems do not take up much space.
    1. Parsec
      Parsec 13 March 2017 16: 23
      0
      Quote: A1845
      Low altitude air defense systems do not take up much space.

      A low-altitude air defense system will be most effective with a highly located, and preferably large, detection antenna.
      1. A1845
        A1845 13 March 2017 16: 39
        0
        no question, on the ship you can attach the antenna somewhere higher
        why does this need a whole ship?
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2017 18: 27
      +2
      Quote: A1845
      Does the organization of near-season air defense really require the allocation of a separate class of ships of 7 tons?

      Only at Oleg Kaptsov
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. Santa Fe
    14 March 2017 07: 50
    +6
    Andrei Chelyabinsk

    Military power - a consequence of a strong economy, and not vice versa
    deliveries of new aircraft of the Russian Space Forces are exceeding the figures of Europe and Japan for one reason - neither Europeans nor Japanese do not compete with us and in general have given military business to elective

    Russia-the war and the defense became nat. idea, with 20 trillion RUB GOZ,

    the only topic you can talk about on TV, because there are no more significant points of contact (and comparison) with the USA and Europe in the current Russian Federation

    Familiar picture?

    Japanese - not straining receive a huge amount of military equipment in areas that are considered important (fleet)
    Moreover, aviation and ground forces are not weak either (this is in the absence of a strong aviation industry of its own (like the CD and NW) for reasons related to the defeat in the war).

    Europeans, having the most powerful industry in all sectors, spend less on defense 2% of GDP
    Easy to imagine what happens if militarism becomes a national idea in Germany again
    And what these 400 Airbus will turn into a year. And where will Shoigu stand with his knees

    There is no need to go for examples.
    There are two serious powers with real military power and capable of reshaping the map of the world.
    the pace of rearmament of the Russian army, VKS and Navy - just nothing against the background of the rearmament of the USA and China

    This is what I mean in mind when starting a dispute with Alex and with you
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 March 2017 08: 59
      +1
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      Military power is a consequence of a strong economy, and not vice versa

      Wow :))) Oleg, you begin to see clearly :)
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      deliveries of new aircraft of the Russian Space Forces are exceeding the figures of Europe and Japan for one reason - neither Europeans nor Japanese do not compete with us and in general have given military business to elective

      Oleg, you again have "mixed up a bunch of ponies, people, and volleys of thousands of guns." You learn how to separate flies from cutlets somehow.
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      Europeans, having the most powerful industry in all sectors, spend less on defense 2% of GDP

      Than ruined their Armed Forces and the MIC
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      It is easy to imagine what will happen if militarism becomes a national idea in Germany again and what these 400 airbuses a year will turn into.

      Oleg, do not fantasize. If suddenly Merkel wants to sharply raise the bar of military spending, then she will encounter exactly the same thing that we have encountered, namely, that she simply does not have the military industry in order to master these very means. What is produced in Germany from Eurofighter-Typhoon? Center wing and left wing liner? And who will do the rest? :)))
      The fact of the matter is that if suddenly the same Germany strikes into militarization, then they will be forced to purchase most of the equipment abroad, and not produce it on their own. And they simply will not be able to build this on their own, due to the lack of both an engineering school and production capacities.
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      the pace of rearmament of the Russian army, VKS and Navy - just nothing against the background of the rearmament of the USA and China

      In numbers please
      1. Santa Fe
        14 March 2017 09: 47
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Than ruined their Armed Forces and the MIC



        Russia buys abroad, in particular in Europe, individual samples of special weapons and military equipment for special purpose units, including sniper rifles and communications equipment, told RIA Novosti on Tuesday the deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Konstantin Biryulin
        MOSCOW, 25 Oct - RIA News.


        another interesting link is https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK_Boxer


        And more

        MBDA is a European developer and manufacturer of missiles. consists of Aérospatiale-Matra Missiles, Italian Alenia Marconi Systems and British BAE Systems). The number of 10,000 employees is. In 2015, MBDA booked orders for 5.2bn and an order book of 15.1 bn. MBDA makes orders for 90 countries of the world.

        but again the Germans - https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/en/

        But the comments of experts:
        What is there in Germany from Eurofighter-Typhoon issued? Centerplane and left wing liner? And everything else who will do? :)))

        The answer is -

        Final assembly of Eurofighter at the plant of the ЕАДС concern in the city of Manching, Germany
        Source: http://www.modernarmy.ru/article/226 © "Modern Army" portal
        ammunition also know how to do - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/KEPD-150/350_TAURUS
        And on their own they simply cannot build this, due to the lack of both an engineering school and production facilities.


        ps. Europe's dead PC is alive
        pps digits for comparing RF and PRC are not needed
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 March 2017 10: 46
          +1
          Nothing at all, Oleg. The only reasonable phrase
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Final assembly of Eurofighter at the plant of the EADS concern in Manching

          Do you understand the meaning of the word "FINAL"? Yes, they collect it - from the Anglo-French radar, all countries of the Eurofighter project are involved in the production of engines, etc.
          Those. if there is something imported in the aircraft of the Russian Federation, then in the aircraft that Germany buys there is something of German production :)))
          Oleg, you don’t understand that the same Eurofighter was not able to stretch the country at the German level. This is a European project. And this project is quite limited by the number of aircraft produced, these guys like to think that their money will not be invested more in industrial capacities than is necessary for planned production.
          Therefore, if we hypothetically assume that money suddenly appeared in Germany, Germany itself WILL NOT BE ABLE to spend it on defense by paying orders to its own defense industry. In order for it to be able to spend its money, the whole of Europe must spend on it. Those. arming itself, Germany will feed not so much her own as the European military-industrial complex.
          That's what you are doing now, Oleg, trying to compare the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation and the European military-industrial complex laughing
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          pps digits for comparing RF and PRC are not needed

          You don’t. You don’t need numbers at all
          1. Santa Fe
            14 March 2017 23: 07
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Eurofighter failed to pull the country level of Germany.

            Globalization

            In the light of the everyday problems that have to be solved during the joint service, the working language is essential. German and French are used equally in the brigade. Bilingualism is an important element of daily work. 70 percent of officers, 30 percent of non-commissioned officers and 10 percent of the rank and file are fluent in partner language. In addition, English is becoming increasingly important as a language of operational communication during maneuvers and combat operations.

            You know what this passage is about? Joint French-German brigade of the EU
            In this regard, your attempt to prove the inferiority of the military-industrial complex of the Federal Republic of Germany, only on the basis of the absence of a full cycle of Eurofighter pro-va, looks like an unsuccessful joke
            ________________________
            German industry produces everything - from tools and machine tools to power plants of any type for any technology.


            Germany, spending on defense less than 2% of GDP, can create and purchase large quantities of military equipment, which they see fit. And in quality, the best in the world.

            The phrase "could not pull out" - to the German industry is not acceptable
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In order for it to be able to spend its money, all of Europe must be wasted on it.

            standard situation since the time of WWII

            Let the thought of the dead European military industrial complex remain on your conscience
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 March 2017 09: 09
              0
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              You know what this passage is about? Joint French-German brigade of the EU

              Oleg, there is a fact - all these brigades are mostly representative. As a single fighting force, the armies of NATO countries cannot, in general, fight. In their best years (the late Cold War), they collected about a hundred thousandth contingent for almost two months.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              In this regard, your attempt to prove the inferiority of the military-industrial complex of the Federal Republic of Germany, only on the basis of the absence of a full cycle of Eurofighter pro-va, looks like an unsuccessful joke

              Oleg, if you think that the absence of a full cycle of Eurofighter, warships and heavy equipment can be replaced by a Franco-German brigade, then this is no joke
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              German industry produces everything - from tools and machine tools to power plants of any type for any technology.

              Nonsense from the word "complete"
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Germany, spending on defense less than 2% of GDP, can create and purchase large quantities of military equipment, which they see fit. And in quality, the best in the world.

              Germany, which spends less than 2% of its GDP on defense, has put its Bundeswehr in its deepest ass since May 9, 1945 (moreover, in the 45th it was still more combat-ready). Half of the aircraft do not fly, half of the equipment is not on the move, and so on. Those. all that the German Armed Forces are capable of now is participation in joint military actions, provided that the United States will take up the main work.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              The phrase "could not pull out" - to the German industry is not acceptable

              Really? :) And if you remove the pink glasses?
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Let the thought of the dead European military industrial complex remain on your conscience

              Well, he's not really dead, he's just driven below the baseboard.
              so we return to Shoigu. So, Oleg, the fact that the Russian military-industrial complex is now producing a comparable amount of armaments with pan-European weapons (and in a number of positions it is significantly superior) and at much lower prices is evidence of Shoigu's indiscretion? laughing
              1. Santa Fe
                15 March 2017 22: 07
                +1
                In the course went "rose-colored glasses" and "nonsense", it is hard for Andrei to defend his wrong concepts.

                The European military industrial complex is one of the leaders in development and technology, fully providing itself and 100 countries of the world. I hope you won't argue with that.

                What to reduce their own aircraft (although not everything is unequivocal here - Germany has the powerful Navy) and division of labor -

                1. In Europe, 70 has not been a war for years. And in the foreseeable future is not expected
                2. Globalization - from a single currency to international industries and military brigades

                spend less on defense 2%, because they know that these costs are secondary. And if necessary (the coming to power of the ultra-right) - the industrial potential of the same Germany will allow to become world leaders in a decade. There is a precedent.
                _________________________________________________
                __

                Russia spends on the military industrial complex everything that it has left, after maintaining all the palaces and yachts, making militarism a national idea.

                But since they are so fond of and ready to fight, let them compare their successes in the military-industrial complex with the real militarists, who (not in word but in deed) are ready to fight and to cut the map of the world by force. Therefore, the only parameter for comparing the Russian Federation and the United States is the number of warheads, there are no other topics for comparison, for they sound inappropriate for Channel One. With China, they do not want to be measured by force (correctly). And according to a number of parameters (the same fleet), it is a shame to compare our successes even with a generally peaceful Europe and Japan.

                These are funny militarists
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 16 March 2017 00: 06
                  0
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  there are no other topics to compare

                  Tanks, artillery, air defense (that's where Russia is ahead of the rest), electronic warfare.
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 March 2017 07: 03
                  0
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  In the course went "rose-colored glasses" and "nonsense", it is hard for Andrei to defend his wrong concepts.

                  Oleg, well, don’t, huh? It was you who managed to give the example of the effectiveness of the European military-industrial complex the presence of Franco-German brigades :)) What are the following arguments? The azimuth of the polar star? The price of firewood in 1845 at the Uryupinsk market?
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  But if they love and are ready to fight like that, let them compare their successes in the defense industry with real militarists who (not in words but in action) are ready to fight and force to draw a map of the world.

                  Well, compare, not talk. On tanks, artillery, on aircraft, on ships, and so on. So far, apart from general exclamations and statements that they say "this does not need comments," nothing has been said.
                  And yes, Oleg, an interesting picture. Why are you suddenly moving to China? I kind of started with Airbus :))) However, I don’t blame you, you already realized that you were rude and fined with Europe :)
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 14 March 2017 19: 23
        0
        "She simply does not have the military industry in order to master these very means." So they will do it - who is who, and the Germans are aces.
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. exo
    exo 15 March 2017 12: 02
    0
    I read about Japan, and before my eyes I see 1988, in Leningrad. Kalinin is being completed, at the Zhdanov factory: em. 956, several buildings. On one, almost everything is installed, on the neighboring part. On the shore there are finished superstructures, awaiting installation to the building. Lucky to visit this plant that year.
    Really, we have lost everything, over the years? Do not even believe it.
    1. dog of war
      dog of war 15 March 2017 13: 50
      0
      Believe it, that's how it is, going down a lot is easier than climbing.
  25. dog of war
    dog of war 15 March 2017 13: 49
    +2
    almost every year on the destroyer! And how are things with our "Leader". Here I completely agree with Kaptsov, who does - does not speak, and who says - he does.
  26. Div Divich
    Div Divich 15 March 2017 14: 57
    +1
    In Russian ships, the main gun is an art installation with an inhabited tower. And the Japanese have means of shooting down flying objects.
  27. looker-on
    looker-on 15 March 2017 19: 17
    +1
    Lord, the repetition of Tsushima in our day is impossible. To do this, the ships should be on both sides, and not just on one side.

    Bravo, Oleg. I'm watching you)
  28. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 15 March 2017 23: 56
    +2
    Quote: psiho117
    And we have one sixth of the land, and the people cried. Already abydna!

    Yes, offensive. laughing
  29. KaPToC
    KaPToC 16 March 2017 14: 19
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    AWACS few

    But a lot is not necessary, one is enough, well, three - to ensure a constant presence.
    Quote: 3danimal
    The Japanese have military allies, the Russian Federation has a political association

    The political associate in our world is the USA - the leader of a gang of criminals - they are all criminals: Britain, the USA, Germany, Japan. In these countries, children are born criminals - because they use the goods criminally stolen in other countries even in the womb. Being a scoundrel is the creed of the Golden Billion.
    Quote: 3danimal
    It is unlikely that a local unsuccessful collision in the ocean will give an excuse for Russia to be the first to start a nuclear war

    You can start a limited nuclear war without striking Okinawa, because we are still at war with Japan, and therefore at war with their allies.
  30. SHAH
    SHAH 24 October 2018 20: 47
    0
    Russia is being lowered below the plinth by "our Russian" Government, Japan is moving upward with its Japanese people's government. How much rope does not twist, but the end must be!