Military Review

New gun for the US Army - SIG Sauer P320

123
It's no secret that for quite some time now the main pistol of the US Army is the Berretta 92 in various versions. Despite the fact that this gun is really good, although it has its drawbacks, on January 20, 2017 it is officially sent “retired”. True, it is worth noting that “retirement” is extended for a decade, but now it is known for sure that it will replace it. At SHOT Show 2017, SIG Sauer announced that it had received a contract from the U.S. Department of Defense to completely replace the Berretta 92 with a SIG Sauer P320 pistol. The amount of the contract is slightly less than 545 million euros. Under the contract armory the company has been obliged for 10 years to completely replace the obsolete pistol with its new one in the full-size version, as well as in the compact one.


At the moment, this gun is in service with several US police departments. In addition, the Thai police ordered 150000 units of these weapons. The civilian version of this gun is also available on the market in a wide variety of options.

The design of the gun SIG Sauer P320

The main feature of the design of weapons is that the entire gun is assembled on a metal base, which is inserted into a plastic frame, the barrel and casing-bolt interact only with the metal, which gives the weapon greater durability. This solution allows you to adapt weapons for specific needs, using a standard set of parts. In fact, all variants of the SIG Sauer P320 are obtained only by replacing the barrel, plastic frame and casing-bolt. The trigger mechanism, the bolt itself and the base of the pistol remain unchanged.

This feature of the weapon allows not only to make a relatively quick adaptation of a large number of pistols to the needs of the customer, but also has a positive effect on the cost of production, as well as subsequent repair. Since the main weapon assemblies are interchangeable even in a full-sized pistol model and subcompact, repair will be limited to a simple and quick replacement that can be carried out by the owner of the weapon or the soldier, even in field conditions.

An interesting decision of the company SIG Sauer was to release several variants of plastic frames at once. And it is not only about the color of plastic and various sizes for specific models of weapons. With the replacement of the plastic frame, you can adapt the gun to the size of the palm of the arrow, well, given that there are no metal parts in the plastic frame, the price of the frame will be minimal.

It was interesting to solve the issue with the number on the frame of the weapon. Since the plastic frame is replaceable, it was necessary to keep the weapon number even when replacing the frame with another one. The solution was found in knocking out the number of weapons on a metal-based weapon, and in the frame they made a slot for this number to be visible.

The basis for the pistol became automatics with a short stroke of the weapon barrel and unlocking of the barrel when the weapon barrel was bent. The trigger mechanism udnikovy double action with dovzvod martial spring when you press the trigger.

The safety of handling weapons is limited only by the automatic safety on the trigger and the pressing force of about 3 kgf. This allows you to wear a cartridge in the chamber with a minimum risk of accidental firing and at any time to shoot as necessary. There are also weapon options with a fuse switch that blocks the hammer and trigger of the gun. In addition, you can meet guns without safety keys on the trigger.
The gun is fully bilateral. So, the slide delay key is duplicated on both sides of the weapon. The magazine eject button can be rearranged on either side of the weapon.

Sights are presented entirely and front sight, which can be replaced by more familiar to the shooter. Standard sights have the ability to adjust horizontally by shifting the front sight to the right-left. The standard pillar is not regulated, but there are options with vertical adjustment, but such a need is not demanded by the army or the police.

On all versions of the weapon, except for the most compact, there is a seat under the barrel of the weapon for mounting a laser pointer or flashlight. On the housing-bolt can also be installed a seat for the collimator sight between the whole and the window for ejection of spent cartridges.

Pros and cons of gun SIG Sauer P320

The main advantage of the gun SIG Sauer P320 is the ease of its repair, plus the ability to customize the weapon to the specific needs of the shooter. Separately, it is worth noting that the weapon, while remaining relatively safe, is constantly ready to fire. Well, of course, not the highest price with high quality.

The weapon’s drawbacks are also present, unfortunately, without them, nowhere. Effort when pressing the trigger in 3 kgf, albeit small, but it affects the accuracy of shooting. In general, manufacturers have recently observed a love for non-cuff systems of a firing mechanism. In general, this is understandable, less details - less cost, which means more demand. It is not clear why a double-action firing mechanism with the possibility of a safe descent of a drummer is very rare. With such a system, the first shot would be made with an effort when pressed, and the subsequent ones would be easier. In general, the path of fashion, albeit the armory, is not always logical.

Replacing the entire plastic frame in order to fit the weapon under the shooter’s arm is certainly an interesting decision, but it was not clear why it was impossible to use removable covers. Such a solution would be simpler and cheaper for the end user.
In general, the gun SIG Sauer P320, for the two years that exists on the market, has established itself as a reliable and unpretentious weapon, working in the most extreme conditions. This is not surprising, since the automation system and the trigger mechanism of the weapon have no innovations and have long been worked out in production, so there is simply nowhere to be mistaken.
Author:
Photos used:
SHOT Show 2017
123 comments
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  1. NEXUS
    NEXUS 15 March 2017 15: 07
    +6
    I'm more interested in what kind of pistol we are officially going to adopt, as a service weapon ... otherwise somehow the makars and turners are already quite old ...
    1. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev 15 March 2017 15: 16
      +11
      the best and unparalleled in the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    2. bouncyhunter
      bouncyhunter 15 March 2017 15: 39
      +4
      This is really interesting. Maybe the PL-15?
    3. Geronimo73
      Geronimo73 15 March 2017 16: 03
      0
      no turners in service for a long time
      1. bouncyhunter
        bouncyhunter 15 March 2017 16: 39
        +5
        Quote: Geronimo73
        no turners in service for a long time

        I will not talk about Russia, but in Belarus the VOKhR and TT, and "Nagan". hi
      2. Okolotochny
        Okolotochny 15 March 2017 18: 27
        +8
        There are units in the FSIN of Russia.
    4. Disorder
      Disorder 15 March 2017 23: 23
      +1
      But is it necessary? With a gun more reliable.
    5. Sedoy
      Sedoy 18 March 2017 16: 06
      +1
      * Makars and turners are already quite old ...
      --------------------------
      and what's new in modern .... :)
      except for the "body kit" and "plastic" - nothing ...
      everything was invented long ago by colt and browning ...
      so now everything is determined by expediency (for the task) and price ...
  2. bouncyhunter
    bouncyhunter 15 March 2017 15: 08
    +7
    An interesting gun and a good article. There is a wish - more TTX.
    1. mr.redpartizan
      mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 15: 34
      +5
      The performance characteristics of 9 mm army pistols have not changed much since the 70s, nothing new can be done here. The polymer frame reduced the mass of the samples by about two hundred grams while maintaining the remaining characteristics.
  3. Operator
    Operator 15 March 2017 15: 16
    +1
    Request to the author - more pictures of the gun in disassembled form.
  4. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 15 March 2017 15: 24
    +5
    "The force when you pull the trigger at 3 kgf, albeit small,
    but it affects the accuracy "////

    Effort only at the first shot. Further, if you do not let go
    trigger to the end, then the next shot - without effort
    with a high rate of fire. But this is a boon for the "pros."
    I have the same system on the Chisetta 2000. I feel uncomfortable.
    High-speed shooting for self-defense is useless. And so - every shot - retargeting.
    Would replace with some compact "Smith-Wesson" with an easy descent, but laziness.
  5. mr.redpartizan
    mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 15: 27
    +6
    When will we replace PM and PY? A pistol is not a rocket or a fighter, but Russia has not been able to adopt a modern army model for 25 years. ПЯ is a weapon of the level of the 70s, moreover, having problems with ergonomics, reliability and resource. We need a 21st century gun that surpasses foreign counterparts in most respects. The 9x19 mm cartridge is outdated with the massive appearance of body armor in the armies of developed countries, so it is necessary to create a powerful small-caliber pistol cartridge with good armor penetration, an analogue of the Belgian 5,7x28 mm or German 4,6x30 mm.
    I consider SR-1 and PL-14 to be the best Russian pistols, although I like the latter more. With the elimination of "childhood" diseases, he is quite capable of becoming the main army pistol for the coming decades.
    1. Tatarin83
      Tatarin83 15 March 2017 19: 10
      +12
      Enough for the police PMa. Specialists have any pistols anyway.
      And for the military, a gun is such a secondary weapon that spending money and resources on re-equipping or even more so on creating a new cartridge is like upgrading a sapper blade. Efficiency will certainly increase, by 3 percent, but is it worth it? Let it be better spending on more serious things, on UAVs for example.
      1. mr.redpartizan
        mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 21: 35
        +1
        Why, then, had to arrange the Rook contest if the PM is so good? Why have they adopted a clearly crude PY? You could just hold a competition, choose a winner and compensate all the design bureaus for R&D.
        The FSO adopted the SR-1 under a non-standard cartridge 9x21 mm, although its power is similar to 9x19 mm. The logic in this is completely absent.
        1. Comrade Stalin
          Comrade Stalin 16 March 2017 09: 41
          +1
          Why, then, had to arrange the Rook contest if the PM is so good? Why have they adopted a clearly crude PY? You could just hold a competition, choose a winner and compensate all the design bureaus for R&D.
          The FSO adopted the SR-1 under a non-standard cartridge 9x21 mm, although its power is similar to 9x19 mm. The logic in this is completely absent.

          You need to cut the loot am
        2. the47th
          the47th 16 March 2017 15: 11
          +1
          Quote: mr.redpartizan
          Belgian counterpart 5,7x28 mm or German 4,6x30 mm.

          These cartridges, with the same armor penetration as the 7N21 / 7N31 / 7N29, have practically no ODP and greatly lose speed with distance.
          1. F.NN
            F.NN 16 March 2017 17: 54
            0
            Quote: the47th
            almost no odds

            Yes, no, at least 5,7x28 mm is okay with this. Although there, too, not everything is as simple as that of infantry rifles. Power is too low. Therefore, setting up a bullet requires jewelry.
            1. the47th
              the47th 17 March 2017 09: 24
              0
              Quote: F.NN
              Yes, no, at least 5,7x28 mm is okay with this.

              But he is inferior to 7H21 in this parameter.



              The drop in bullet speed with a distance is approximately the same, and the mass of 7N21 is 2,5 times more - hence the best ODP. Moreover, I found data for SS190 only for a barrel length of 267 mm, 7N21 data - from a ballistic barrel 93,5 mm long. Five-Seven shots will have even more modest performance.
              1. F.NN
                F.NN 17 March 2017 21: 21
                0
                Quote: the47th
                Bullet velocity drop with distance is approximately the same

                5,7 × 28 mm is a pistol cartridge. He does not need more than 100 m range. At the same time, we will not forget that he is a new generation, “small”, i.e. poorly stabilized.
                Quote: the47th
                And the data for SS190 I found only for barrel length 267 mm

                That they allude to PP. But they, ideally, do not need more than 200-220 m. No, if there is too much, then well. But by standards, more than 220 m is not needed.
                Although it’s worth focusing on 300 m. The fact is that high-quality "small things" usually "work" a step above their power. And the next step after 200 m is 300 m.
                1. the47th
                  the47th 18 March 2017 20: 35
                  0
                  According to the notorious Taylor formula (KO = M × V × C / 7000
                  where M is the mass of the bullet, gran; V is the speed of the bullet, feet per second; C - bullet caliber, inches) at 50 m of the ODP looks like this:
                  SS190: 1,97504
                  7H21: 5,3768746
                  The difference is striking.
                  Quote: F.NN
                  That they allude to PP.

                  They are not hinting at anything. It’s just the only thing I could find. And the P90 is the main consumer of 5,7x28mm.
                  Quote: F.NN
                  At the same time, we will not forget that he is a new generation, “small”, i.e. poorly stabilized.

                  The cartridge with a "weakly stabilized" bullet is the M193. For obvious reasons, the Americans abandoned it in favor of the "stabilized" SS109. The SS190 bullet is identical in shape to SS109.


                  SS190 on top.
                  1. F.NN
                    F.NN April 5 2017 13: 24
                    0
                    Quote: the47th
                    According to the notorious Taylor formula

                    This is a formula for bullets with classic bullets. In this case, it is not applicable.
                    Quote: the47th
                    The cartridge with a "weakly stabilized" bullet is the M193. The Americans, for obvious reasons, abandoned it in favor of the "stabilized" SS109

                    In M16A2, the bullet is equally weakly stabilized. However, it is slightly more stable than the M16A1. That’s the whole difference.
        3. F.NN
          F.NN 16 March 2017 17: 52
          0
          Quote: mr.redpartizan
          Why, then, had to arrange the Rook contest if the PM is so good? Why have they adopted a clearly crude PY?

          Then that the army needs an army pistol. It has never been in the armies of the Republic of Ingushetia / USSR, and it was in the Russian Federation that they decided to correct this shortcoming.
          Quote: mr.redpartizan
          The FSO adopted the SR-1 under a non-standard cartridge 9x21 mm, although its power is similar to 9x19 mm. The logic in this is completely absent.

          Yes, an army cartridge must choose one. However, the FSO is not an army. But there is nothing to indulge in, a wide range of cartridges, this is also not cheap.
          Quote: Tatarin83
          And for the military, a gun is such a secondary weapon

          Who told you that? Soviet military? Did they even hold an army pistol in their hands? Know what it is?
          You can be sure that they do not know and did not hold anything more solid than the police PM.
          1. Dinko
            Dinko 17 March 2017 16: 08
            +1
            It's just that the Russian army understands perfectly well that for a modern war, a gun is not a weapon! But in countries like France, they are seriously talking about this topic.
            1. F.NN
              F.NN 17 March 2017 16: 18
              0
              Quote: Dinko
              It's just that the Russian army is well aware that for a modern war, a gun is not a weapon!

              Yeah. And that is why they adopted PY.
              1. Dinko
                Dinko 17 March 2017 16: 25
                0
                POs were accepted because Makar was outdated for a long time. However, try to fully fight with them then you will see everything with your own eyes and apart from the POs, the General Staff and the ATP
                1. F.NN
                  F.NN 17 March 2017 21: 15
                  0
                  Quote: Dinko
                  PJ accepted because Makar has long been outdated.

                  You do not do excuses. PY adopted? Accepted. Q.E.D.
            2. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok April 6 2017 21: 25
              0
              Quote: Dinko
              It's just that the Russian army is well aware that for a modern war, a gun is not a weapon

              do not give out your fabrications for the opinion of a hypothetical army. I knew 2 officers who were saved by the presence of a pistol. One in avgan, the second on the territory of the former USSR. And both cases were in the village. WWII veterans also said that sometimes it’s faster to pull out the TT from the sinus than to reload the machine ...
      2. ammunition
        ammunition 12 February 2018 17: 26
        0
        Quote: Tatarin83
        And for the military, a gun is such a secondary weapon that spending money and resources on re-equipping or even more so on creating a new cartridge is like upgrading a sapper blade.

        The service weapon of not only officers, but also grenade launchers .. and senior operators.
        As a "spare" weapon is necessary.
        So I think that there is nothing better than GS-18. Lightweight, comfortable, powerful .. sleek. WITHOUT STICKS!.. That is - it is very easily snatched from everywhere, even at least from the sock.
        -------------------
        I can’t understand why everyone is dragging themselves away from these ugly pistols .. like this American one .. or all kinds of “Yarygins”.
        Makarov is a good gun. But much inferior to GSH-18. In everything.
    2. F.NN
      F.NN 16 March 2017 17: 47
      0
      Quote: mr.redpartizan
      A gun is not a rocket or a fighter

      Something about the same. Only in miniature.
      Quote: mr.redpartizan
      We need a 21st century gun that surpasses foreign counterparts in most respects.

      Gee-gee. Who will make it? God grant that not much behind. Or you need to buy a license.
      Quote: mr.redpartizan
      therefore, it is necessary to create a powerful small-caliber pistol cartridge with good armor penetration

      May be. Actually, of course, in a smart way, this had to be dealt with back in the early 90s. Instead of a cartridge of Steam and PY.
      Quote: mr.redpartizan
      I consider SR-1 to be the best Russian pistols

      ATP is too powerful. Recoil there oh-go-go.
      Quote: mr.redpartizan
      and PL-14, although I like the latter more. With the elimination of "childhood" diseases, he is quite capable of becoming the main army pistol for the coming decades.

      Sub nothing. But then what about the "analogue of the Belgian 5,7x28 mm"?
  6. Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 15 March 2017 16: 07
    +5
    Quote: mr.redpartizan
    it is necessary to create a powerful small-caliber pistol cartridge with good armor penetration, an analogue of the Belgian 5,7x28 mm or German 4,6x30 mm.

    And what is 7,62x25 worse? The technology has been worked out, the equipment is probably available, the ammunition is well-known, the energy is enough to send the adversary on indefinite vacation.
    1. mr.redpartizan
      mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 16: 35
      +1
      Its specific energy is clearly insufficient for breaking through bulletproof vests. For a bullet of a cartridge 9x18 mm PM ~ 4,8 J / mm ^ 2, for 9x19 mm PAIR ~ 8,7 J / mm ^ 2, for 7,62x25 mm TT ~ 11 J / mm ^ 2, but for bullets of powerful small-caliber more ammunition: 5,7x28 mm ~ 17 J / mm ^ 2, 4,6x30 mm ~ 31 J / mm ^ 2.
      For comparison, this indicator for intermediate cartridges is: 7,62x39 mm ~ 44 J / mm ^ 2, 5,45x39 mm ~ 62 J / mm ^ 2.
      According to these data, a significantly greater potential for armor penetration is seen for high-speed small-caliber bullets. We cannot increase the power of the cartridge because of the need to maintain the recoil momentum within reasonable limits, so we have to reduce the caliber of the bullet.
      1. rasteer
        rasteer 15 March 2017 17: 51
        +2
        Your calculation is by no means indicative, if only because with equal overall dimensions of 9x18 mm PM, 9x19 mm PAIR, the specific energy differs almost twice. That is, the issue is not caliber.
        Powerful small things have a weak stopping effect, which is not good for self-defense weapons, close combat.
        7,62x25 mm TT is essentially a cartridge of the beginning of the 20th century, this is the reason for its low specific energy, but this can easily be corrected by modernization, and so that weapons developed for a modernized cartridge can use old ammunition. But the question is, why? The stopping effect is still below 9mm of ammunition.
        Improving the 9x18 mm PM to the level of 9x19 mm PAIRs and creating service weapons for new ammunition may be the best option.
        1. mr.redpartizan
          mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 18: 01
          +1
          There was already an attempt to modernize the 9x18 mm PM cartridge in the 90s, but nothing good came of it. There have been cases of the use of new cartridges in old weapons, which led to injuries. In the early 30s, in order to save money, they tried to create a PP under the cartridge from the Nagan revolver, but did not take into account its disgusting aerodynamics.
          1. rasteer
            rasteer 15 March 2017 18: 21
            +1
            The Nagan cartridge is, in principle, an unsuccessful option for self-loading weapons.
            And the modernization of 9x18 mm PM in the 90s, I'm sorry to try to improve the ammunition without changing the barrel, namely the PM with its free wheeling, which greatly limits the possibilities of modernization.
            We cannot say to increase the mass of the powder charge, from g - 0,25 PM, to g - 0,46-0,48 like that of a PAIR, and all because the PM automatics simply can not stand more than gunpowder.
            1. mr.redpartizan
              mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 18: 32
              +1
              There are several options for upgrading the 9x18 mm cartridge - PMM and PBM. The latter can be used in old pistols, but PMM - only in pistols with a reinforced structure.
              For small-caliber bullets at close range, a high stopping effect due to water hammer (bullet velocity of a cartridge 5,7x28 mm - 650 m / s), at large distances this effect disappears, but high armor penetration remains. A small recoil momentum allows you to use the firing mode in short bursts of 2-3 shots, which compensates for a slight decrease in stopping power.
              1. rasteer
                rasteer 15 March 2017 19: 34
                0
                There are several options for upgrading the 9x18 mm cartridge - PMM and PBM.
                Well, a full-fledged cartridge modernization can only be called PMM, PBM is still just one of many bullet options.
                In small-caliber bullets at close range, a high stopping effect due to water hammer (cartridge bullet speed 5,7x28 mm - 650 m / s),
                That's just such a speed get on trunks over 20cm. The cartridges were originally designed for PP, not short-barreled pistols. 9mm has taken root in the world of pistols, because of its versatility, it is suitable both as a weapon of self-defense in the army and as a melee weapon in police structures. And everything else is already for specialists and civilians here as they say that he wanted something and put it on.
                1. mr.redpartizan
                  mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 21: 00
                  0
                  The 9x18 mm PBM cartridge appeared later than the PMM. Despite the lower power, he surpasses it in armor penetration and stopping the action of a bullet at close range.
                  The speed of the bullet is 650 m / s - this is when shooting from an FN Five-Seven pistol (122 mm barrel), when shooting from the P-90 software, the initial speed will be 715 m / s. Some manufacturers produce 5,7 mm cartridges with even greater initial velocity and bullet weight.
                  1. rasteer
                    rasteer 16 March 2017 08: 23
                    0
                    The 9x18 mm PBM cartridge appeared later than the PMM.

                    You confuse the modernization of ammunition when additional weapon modernization is required. This is the story with the PMM (7N16), and a simple replacement of a bullet for the PM of such options is a bunch starting from 57-N-181 and then 57-H-181C, 7N15 (armor-piercing), PS (export) , PT (tracer), PBM (7N25), and let's say the SP-7 cartridge - the expansive has 5 versions of the bullet.
                    Bullet speed 650 m / s - this is when firing a pistol FN Five-Seven
                    Well, yes, when you exit the trunk, but you will shoot at close range 715 m / s on a 260 mm barrel. But in general, despite the statements of FN about a three times greater stopping effect of 5,7x28 mm than that of PAR, one of the disadvantages of Five-Seven is recognized as its weakness. And in spite of adopting it as an army and police standard pistol, it was distributed only among specialists, for operations where the meeting with bulletproof vest is great.
                2. F.NN
                  F.NN 16 March 2017 18: 08
                  +1
                  Quote: rasteer
                  suitable as a weapon of self-defense in the army, and as a melee weapon in police structures.

                  This does not happen. Police officers and military have different tasks when shooting.
                  1. rasteer
                    rasteer 16 March 2017 18: 20
                    0
                    It happens, at least in terms of pistols. This has been shown by the world experience of the last hundred years. It's just that in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and in the army, the same pistol most often performs different tasks, the main weapon of the employee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the auxiliary army. So they try to combine the characteristics required for the structures.
                    1. F.NN
                      F.NN 16 March 2017 18: 37
                      0
                      Quote: rasteer
                      It happens, at least in terms of pistols. This has been shown by the world experience of the last hundred years. It's just that in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and in the army, the same pistol most often performs different tasks, the main weapon of the employee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the auxiliary army.

                      Police weapons are a type of service weapon. Service weapons in the army are also used on supporting roles. But it differs from the policeman in its performance characteristics.
                      For example, if the PM cartridge is sold under the TT bullet, and then the PM is re-shot under this cartridge, then a completely high-quality army service weapon will be obtained. But the PM (normal police pistol) in its pure form is not suitable for the army in any way. Just as for our police this 7,62 mm PM transformed into a caliber would not be suitable.
                      1. rasteer
                        rasteer 16 March 2017 19: 38
                        0
                        For example, if a PM cartridge is sold under a TT bullet,
                        Yeah, your words and Makarov’s ears, he then, on his innocence, on the contrary cut off the TT sleeve to get a universal cartridge.
                        Have you studied service weapons in different countries for a long time? Many where mass guns other than 9mm are used in bulk? We don’t take our troubles there.
                      2. F.NN
                        F.NN 17 March 2017 09: 30
                        0
                        Quote: rasteer
                        Makarov’s ears, he’s out of his naivety

                        I have already written repeatedly, unprofessionalism and incompetence, this is the birth trauma of "socialism". His business card. Therefore, the Soviet "innovations" in the field of small arms all over the world cause a rash and healthy laughter. Literally ALL cartridges for small arms in normal caliber, adopted for service during the Soviet Union, are UNFITABLE for the main army weapons. Moreover, for some special types of small arms they can be quite normal.
                        Quote: rasteer
                        cut the TT sleeve to get a universal cartridge.

                        Well, I cut it off. Do not read Runet, do not spoil your eyes.
                        In addition, there are NO universal cartridges.
                        Quote: rasteer
                        Have you studied service weapons in different countries for a long time? Many where mass guns other than 9mm are used in bulk?

                        I repeat once again, service weapons can be army, and sometimes police. These are different types of service weapons. And they have different tasks. And they have different ammunition. More or less only the power of their ammunition matches. Therefore, they can be made on a single sleeve, because a sleeve is a container for a certain amount of gunpowder.
                      3. rasteer
                        rasteer 18 March 2017 00: 22
                        0
                        Therefore, the Soviet "innovations" in the field of small arms all over the world cause a rash and healthy laughter.
                        You cause laughter, and people all over the world are actively robbing each other with Soviet funny weapons. They will shoot the adversary from Kalash or TT and laugh at the complete unsuitability of their weapons wassat
                        Well, I cut it off. Do not read Runet, do not spoil your eyes.
                        Well, enlighten it, how was it? Maybe he accidentally stole a millimeter from a PAIR. It is interesting to listen to an alternative version of the origin of the cartridge.
                        In addition, there are NO universal cartridges.
                        Well, yes, you probably can’t put a cartridge from Kalash into the PM. And the rest of the WWII experience showed that the larger the cartridge for the shooting, the more universal it is. In short, no one in reality carries 10 stores with different cartridges, all of these were banged when changing a cartridge wassat
                        official weapons can be army, and sometimes police. These are different types of service weapons. And they have different tasks. And they have different ammunition. ... Therefore, they can be made on a single sleeve, because a sleeve is a container for a certain amount of gunpowder.
                        You are so controversial wassat
                      4. F.NN
                        F.NN 18 March 2017 08: 26
                        0
                        Quote: rasteer
                        You cause laughter

                        So some show a finger enough.
                        Quote: rasteer
                        and people all over the world are actively robbing each other with Soviet funny weapons.

                        So they are ruining each other with fake vodka. Do we write it in a weapon?
                        Quote: rasteer
                        They will shoot the adversary from Kalash or TT and laugh at the complete unsuitability of their weapons

                        Still, you have trouble understanding. I wrote to you about the ARMY weapons. And you can shoot someone out of a sawn-off shotgun.
                        Quote: rasteer
                        Well, enlighten it, how was it?

                        Drawings of cartridges in your hands.
                        Quote: rasteer
                        In short, no one in reality carries 10 stores with different cartridges, all of these were banged when changing a cartridge

                        Of course. Each has its own weapons and its ammunition. However, universal weapons and universal cartridges do not exist.
                        If we touch the Soviet “generalists” (they tried to solve everything with a pistol cartridge and PP), then the loss of servicemen was 5 to 1, if that. Insanity continued further, but already on the cartridge 7,62x39 mm.
                  2. Dinko
                    Dinko 17 March 2017 16: 13
                    0
                    However, the U.S. police are happy to use the Glock 17 pistol, which is not armed with the Austrian army. Also, like the Beretta 92 pistol, which is also armed with the U.S. index 9, so do not drive the snowstorm my incompetent friend!
                    1. F.NN
                      F.NN 17 March 2017 16: 19
                      0
                      Quote: Dinko
                      However, the U.S. police are happy to use the Glock 17 pistol, which is not armed with the Austrian army. Also, like the Beretta 92 pistol, which is also armed with the U.S. index 9, so do not drive the snowstorm my incompetent friend!

                      You watch movies less. Powerful weapons are used mainly by special police units.
                      1. Dinko
                        Dinko 17 March 2017 16: 27
                        0
                        Man, I would better advise you this because of your complete ignorance of the subject!
                      2. F.NN
                        F.NN 17 March 2017 21: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Dinko
                        I would rather advise you because of your complete ignorance of the subject!

                        It’s too early for you to advise anything on the subject of small arms.
                      3. 4thParasinok
                        4thParasinok April 6 2017 22: 11
                        0
                        Quote: F.NN
                        You watch movies less. Powerful weapons are used mainly by special police units.

                        read fairy tales less. In most states, police are prohibited from using weapons chambered for weaker than 9x21. So for pistols, the most common ones are 9x21, .40 S&W (10x22) and .45. And 9x17 in many police departments is prohibited even for hidden weapons ... well, with revolvers, in general, freedom for maniacs, up to the .357 Magnum. And there the power can be 1200J. reaches. At one time, it was specially created before the police in order to shoot through the doors of cars at criminals ...
                      4. F.NN
                        F.NN April 8 2017 09: 40
                        0
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        In most states, police are forbidden to use weapons under a cartridge weaker than 9x21

                        That's right. And without grenade launchers, they also do not go on patrols.
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        It was specially created before the police in order to shoot at criminals through the doors of cars ...

                        Do not confuse police with police special forces. These are different things.
                    2. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok April 6 2017 21: 50
                      0
                      Quote: Dinko
                      However, the U.S. police are happy to use the Glock 17 pistol, which is not armed with the Austrian army. Also, like the Beretta 92 pistol, which is also armed with the U.S. index 9, so do not drive the blizzard out of my incompetent friend!

                      not all the police ... They have their own trunks in every state, where Colt 1911 is given where, and then the police spend a few bucks on fine-tuning to make it work properly ...
              2. F.NN
                F.NN 16 March 2017 18: 06
                0
                Quote: mr.redpartizan
                In small-caliber bullets at close range, a high stopping effect due to water hammer (cartridge bullet speed 5,7x28 mm - 650 m / s)

                Not a hydroblow, but due to the rotation of Saturn across the celestial axis.
                In fact, the chip "little things" in their turn. So they are sharply braked, and their energy is transmitted to the victim’s body more sharply, in a shorter period of time.
          2. AlexMark
            15 March 2017 18: 26
            +6
            Allow me to hook into the dialogue. I do not quite understand why 9x18 is written off by everyone. The characteristics of this ammunition fully meet all the requirements of law enforcement. For the army, yes, we need a new cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet.
            Combining in one ammunition armor-piercing and high stopping action is simply unrealistic. You can certainly be perverted with multi-barrel systems that have the ability to shoot a volley. It is possible to increase the mass of the bullet and the powder sample, so that a certain effect can take the enemy out of action through an armored plate, and so on, but all this is nothing more than a perversion.
            Thus, for the police need a cartridge with a bullet with a stopping effect, 9 x18 is still suitable. For army armor-piercing, well, for example, SP-10. And why reinvent the wheel when everything is already there?
            1. rasteer
              rasteer 15 March 2017 19: 18
              0
              Yes, in general, no one invents anything. It’s just that PM as a weapon in itself is outdated, but 9x18 is enough for the police, but PM, by design, is not the best option due to scatter due to primitive automation. And this figure is important in a peaceful city. For the army there is not enough armor penetration and accuracy and stopping action. Therefore, we need a new weapons complex, a cartridge plus a weapon for it, and to reduce costs, it is desirable to use the existing equipment that is universal and maximizes it, at least for the production of cartridges.
              1. mr.redpartizan
                mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 21: 06
                0
                The accuracy of the PM is quite sufficient for the army and police, but its cartridge power and magazine capacity are depressing. PM reliable, simple and small in size, but its mass of 830 grams is too large for such a low-power weapon. In terms of mass and dimensions, the PM is similar to Glock-19, but inferior to it in all combat indicators.
            2. mr.redpartizan
              mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 19: 24
              +2
              Criminals may well wear bulletproof vests before going out. Modern concealed vests are inexpensive and freely sold, and their level of protection is sufficient to stop a 9x19 mm cartridge bullet. The police should not count on fighting only against drug addicts and gopniks.
              The stopping effect of small-caliber bullets is provided due to the effect of water hammer and somersault when hit by a target. By reducing the thickness of the shell of the bullet and increasing the pitch of the rifling in the barrel, it is possible to destroy the bullet into many fragments when it hits the target (like a 5,56 mm M193 cartridge bullet). There is no violation of the convention on the prohibition of expansive bullets in this.
              1. rasteer
                rasteer 15 March 2017 19: 41
                +3
                An officer of the PPS, DPS, even Makar, is usually enough, and these are the most massive structures of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, armor-piercing bullets, and even more somersaults in conditions of PEACEFUL city, can do more troubles than one bandit in armor. Well, other people usually work against such personnel, and they may need different weapons. The conversation here was about mass weapons of self-defense and close combat for law enforcement agencies.
                1. mr.redpartizan
                  mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 21: 10
                  +1
                  What prevents police from using bullets with expansive bullets? They are not banned for law enforcement.
                  1. rasteer
                    rasteer 16 March 2017 08: 49
                    0
                    And where does the expansive? I say that a bullet with a high penetrating effect is much more dangerous when used in a city. For small caliber, the increase in stopping effect is achieved due to incomplete stabilization, as a result we get a rebound even from the bushes, or like the M193’s bullet is breaking but armor piercing immediately suffers, the Americans tried to fix it, as a result the bullet began to sew the armor better, but stopped crumbling like it supposed to. Well, yes, such bullets for police functions, so to speak, are ideologically not correct, because you still didn’t have to kill the task, but I wanted to stop and still talk after that, and this is not what the doctor needs to pick out a hundred small fragments from offal.
                  2. F.NN
                    F.NN 16 March 2017 18: 16
                    0
                    Quote: mr.redpartizan
                    What prevents police from using bullets with expansive bullets? They are not banned for law enforcement.

                    What for? PM them MORE than enough.
                2. would
                  would 16 March 2017 03: 55
                  +1
                  For the staff of the faculty, traffic police


                  Once, in a similar topic, DPSniks already unsubscribed that they had more than once encountered the situation when the PM could not break through the heavy-load bus and had to connect the ACSU. So in this case, "usually enough" is clearly at least not so clear if not wrong.
                  1. rasteer
                    rasteer 16 March 2017 08: 33
                    0
                    when the PM could not penetrate the truck tire
                    But you must agree that in the first place, it is not necessary to slow down the trucks so often, and in the second I do not say that the PM is an ideal; rather, on the contrary, it is outdated and has long been replaced. But replacing it with an armor-piercing gun for police functions is too much, the use of such ammunition for software is justified as a replacement for the same AKSU (it was not from a good life that it was adopted by the Ministry of Internal Affairs at the time).
                    1. would
                      would 16 March 2017 09: 27
                      +1
                      Often or not, but this is a direct need of the traffic police officers that they encounter and, according to the PM comments, does not work for them in this case. But not every crew has AKSU.

                      Well and yes: I didn’t recommend using BB cartridges for the police as regular ones because this is already really too much.
                      1. rasteer
                        rasteer 16 March 2017 09: 50
                        0
                        The standard equipment of the PPS, DPS is a different story. For the DPS machine, amplification means are more powerful than PM (or analogues) are needed, however, the AKSU is an excess, as they say from the lack of fish, a self-loading carbine would probably fit, but I still can not understand why the AKSU along with the PPS, unless it looks worse. In general, weapons are armor-piercing and automatic weapons in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in quantity and quality as we do not need. But the structure is still being built with an eye to its use in punitive functions.
              2. F.NN
                F.NN 16 March 2017 18: 14
                +2
                Quote: mr.redpartizan
                Criminals may well wear bulletproof vests before going out. Modern concealed vests are inexpensive and freely sold,

                They can still buy a grenade launcher on the black market. And also buy a collection armored car. And also install a radio mine. And much more. Only these are not clients of the police, but OMON. Which has a different weapon.
                The police gun is designed for ordinary criminals. And the goal of the police is to neutralize such a criminal and bring him to court. And do not bang on the spot.
                1. Dinko
                  Dinko 17 March 2017 16: 20
                  +1
                  It all depends on my dear friend how many buggers this same criminal will deliver to the police and if he puts up resistance then he will just crash on the spot.
                  1. F.NN
                    F.NN 17 March 2017 19: 30
                    0
                    Quote: Dinko
                    how many buggers this same criminal will deliver to the police and if he puts up resistance then he will just crash on the spot

                    Police officers ALWAYS strive to ARREST a criminal. Although, of course, situations are hopeless.
                    But not policemen can bang for no reason. And others. Even if they are in police uniform.
            3. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok April 6 2017 22: 19
              0
              Quote: AlexMark
              I do not quite understand why 9x18 is debited by everyone. The characteristics of this munition fully satisfy all the requirements of law enforcement agencies.

              it’s strange, but the familiar cops say different things ... And I remember how in our unit the officer’s overcoat (it was in the 80s) protected the PM from a bullet that fell into the chest at an acute angle — the second layer of cloth withstood, and the leitech was deployed only around the axis . The bruise escaped.
        2. F.NN
          F.NN 16 March 2017 18: 03
          0
          Quote: rasteer
          Powerful small things have a weak stopping effect, which is not good for self-defense weapons, close combat.

          It doesn’t. Due to rotation.
          Quote: rasteer
          but this can easily be fixed by upgrading

          No. Leopard change his spots. Only in the shooting range. Athletes.
          Quote: rasteer
          the refinement of 9x18 mm PM to the level of 9x19 mm PAIRs and the creation of service weapons for new ammunition may become the best option.

          This cannot be done for a number of reasons:
          1. The true caliber of the cartridge 9x18 mm PM 9,2 mm. The true caliber of the cartridge is 9x19 mm. The pair is 9,0 mm. The PM cartridge will have more bullet area.
          2. The cartridge sleeve capacity of 9x18 mm is too small for the ammunition of an army pistol.
          Cartridge 9x18 mm PM, this is the munition of a police pistol. And there is nothing to torment him.
          You can change the sleeve into a smaller caliber and make a service army pistol (not the main one). This, yes, is the usual global practice of unification. Nothing else can be done.
          1. rasteer
            rasteer 16 March 2017 18: 57
            0
            It doesn’t. Due to rotation.
            What axis?
            Only in the shooting range. Athletes.
            Yes you are kidding. why do they need such crooked happiness laughing
            The PM cartridge will have more bullet area.
            You take a caliper or something, and measure these 0.2mm on it, let's measure the caliber in tenths, it turns out, 90 for the PAIR and 92 PM the difference is plus or minus 2%, depending on whom to consider, do you seriously think that this will radically affect the ballistics of the bullet?
            The cartridge case capacity of 9x18 mm is too small for the ammunition of an army pistol.
            The difference in dimensions of the PM and PAIR sleeves is 1 mm in length, and the difference in the weight of gunpowder is 0,25 g PM, 0,46-0,48 g PARA. Tchert Karl as these bourgeois stuffed so much gunpowder into this 1 mm wink
            You can change the sleeve into a smaller caliber and make a service army pistol (not the main one).
            You can mashu for a frog. and a goat on a cart. wassat And in the end, TT will be released again, dad PM ... before he was circumcised wink
            World practice of unification has long and unequivocally proved that 9mm is the standard for a service pistol.
            The issue of modifying the PM cartridge lies rather in the plane of creating a weapon complex weapon + cartridge, rather than in an attempt to force the PM to shoot a cartridge with the characteristics of a PAIR, all normal people understand the failure of such an undertaking.
            1. F.NN
              F.NN 17 March 2017 19: 29
              0
              Quote: rasteer
              What axis?

              U-turn, of course.
              Quote: rasteer
              why do they need such crooked happiness

              Then for re-melting. There are no other applications.
              Quote: rasteer
              plus minus 2% depending

              The area of ​​the bullet will change by 4,5%. This is a lot.
              Quote: rasteer
              Do you seriously think that this will radically affect the ballistics of a bullet?

              Radically, not radically, but even the shape of its nose affects the ballistics of a bullet. Not that diameter.
              Quote: rasteer
              And in the end, TT will be released again, dad PM ... before he was circumcised

              1. No one used TT circumcision. PM has an original sleeve.
              2. The power of such a proposed cartridge with the power of the CT compare. Nothing in common.
              Quote: rasteer
              World practice of unification has long and unequivocally proved that 9mm is the standard for a service pistol.

              Damn, how much can you repeat? There are 2 types of service pistols. Police and army. They have different tasks, but the same power. Therefore, the cartridges, despite the same power, they have different, different caliber.
              Quote: rasteer
              The question of modifying the PM cartridge lies rather in the plane of creating a weapon complex weapon + cartridge

              Did you understand what you wrote? Such a "complex" was created long ago and it is called the "PM pistol PM cartridge". A set of police weapons, if that.
              1. rasteer
                rasteer 17 March 2017 21: 43
                +1
                U-turn, of course.
                AND??? As a result, the bullet loses something for which it was invented ... armor-piercing, but it acquires increased rebound, in general, a cool solution.
                Radically, not radically, but even the shape of its nose affects the ballistics of a bullet. Not that diameter.
                Here the form really affects even with one caliber, and these conditional 0,2mm are not, and all because they are not the battle ranges.
                No one used TT circumcision. PM has an original sleeve.
                You sho hi
                The power of this proposed cartridge with the power of the CT compare.
                What is it? Your crimped on the basis of the cropped PM, that is, we take 18mm, crimp again, and what happens? sleeve for TT 25mm conditionally 25-18 = 7mm that is, do you suggest leaving 11mm on gunpowder and the bottom with a capsule?
                Damn, how much can you repeat?
                And you do not prove it to me. and to those who accept them, around the world. And the reason that you will not be heard anyway by the economic doing either one type of pistol + cartridge, or two, even if it is a new-fashioned omnivorous pistol with a replaceable barrel for the cartridge, you still need to let out two different ones.
                Did you understand what you wrote?
                I understood perfectly, but you don’t understand this. PM is outdated as a universal platform, and a separate platform, as you say, is not intended for anyone who is not going to create because it is pointless. But obviously you know better, but they don’t listen to you ... for some reason request
                1. F.NN
                  F.NN 17 March 2017 23: 08
                  0
                  Quote: rasteer
                  As a result, the bullet loses something for which it was invented ... armor-piercing

                  You mixed up a gun with an anti-tank gun.
                  In addition to this, the bullet unfolds far from instantly. And practically does not lose the penetrating ability.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  Here the shape really affects even with one caliber, and these conditional 0,2mm are not,

                  You know better. Apparently.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  Your crimped on the base of the cropped PM, that is, we take 18mm, crimp again, and what happens?

                  And here is 18mm? They just remain unchanged. 0.2 mm will go to the compression of the dulce. But there it is still 18,1 mm, 17,9 mm will remain. The TT bullet protrudes from the sleeve by 9,9 mm. So the length of the cartridge will be 27,8 mm.
                  You generally make sense of that. what do I write catch? The cartridge will result in 7,62x18 mm. With a bottle-shaped sleeve, like a TT. And the power of the TT cartridge doesn’t need him. PM cartridge power is enough.
                  Quote: rasteer
                  and a separate platform, as you say the army is not anyone who is not going to create because it is pointless.

                  And why did they take the cartridge of Para and PY for it?
                2. rasteer
                  rasteer 18 March 2017 00: 01
                  +1
                  You mixed up a gun with an anti-tank gun.
                  Yeah sho laughing Well, tell me then why do all these high-speed small things. And the goal of their current is breaking through. A bullet that is not fully stabilized when it hits the armor begins to rotate, losing its breakdown power.
                  You generally make sense of that. what do I write catch?
                  The meaning of what you write, I catch. and I also catch that you have problems of a technical level, just take and look at the length of the barrel of any bottle cartridge. And immediately it becomes clear that 0,2 mm is the right way to distort and destroy the cartridge even before firing. The TT had a 25mm sleeve, of which 3,5mm was used for the conical transition and 3,5mm under the muzzle.
                  And why did they take the cartridge of Para and PY for it?
                  Apparently decided not to bother. Sobsno maybe it’s right to use already debugged solutions for auxiliary weapons, I'm talking about a cartridge if that)
                  1. F.NN
                    F.NN 18 March 2017 08: 18
                    0
                    Quote: rasteer
                    but tell me then why do all these high-speed small things

                    Yeah You don’t even know the basics.
                    Quote: rasteer
                    And the goal of their current is breaking through.

                    I told you so.
                    Quote: rasteer
                    I catch that you have problems of a technical level, just take and look at the length of the barrel of any bottle cartridge. And immediately it becomes clear that 0,2 mm is the right way to distort and destroy the cartridge even before firing. The TT had a 25mm sleeve, of which 3,5mm was used for the conical transition and 3,5mm under the muzzle.

                    Do not fantasize. The TT liner, which was originally under a 9 mm bullet (Mauser Export cartridge), was pinched under a 7,62 mm bullet. In the same way, the cartridge sleeve of the PM cartridge could be pinched under a 7,62 mm bullet.
                    As for distortions, the weapon must be able to do.
                    1. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok April 10 2017 02: 20
                      0
                      Quote: F.NN
                      Do not fantasize. The TT liner, which was originally under a 9 mm bullet (Mauser Export cartridge), was pinched under a 7,62 mm bullet. In the same way, the cartridge sleeve of the PM cartridge could be pinched under a 7,62 mm bullet.

                      1. TT bullet was made on the basis of the cartridge 7,63 × 25 mm Mauser, in 1930 in Germany they purchased a plant and a license for the production of a cartridge of exactly 7,63, and not 9x25. So you once again .........
                      2. No need to rape the PM cartridge, reducing the caliber, except for distortions, there is a ready-made solution - 7,65 × 21 mm Parabellum,, 7.92 × 24mm (designed for concealed weapons based on the .30 Carbine cartridge) or for your completely perverts 7,65 × 20 mm Longue, but for the police the caliber is not enough ...
                      3. As for the skews - for cartridges 9x17 and 9x18 it is impossible to create a handle with a convenient tilt - skews begin, the presence of which is unacceptable in an army (police) pistol.
                      1. F.NN
                        F.NN April 10 2017 08: 22
                        0
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        TT bullet was made on the basis of the cartridge 7,63 × 25 mm Mauser

                        Okay, let's go deeper. The cartridge sleeve 7,63 × 25 mm Mauser, was originally under 9 mm bullet (cartridge Mauser Export), was pinched under 7,63 mm bullet.
                        That's better?
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        No need to force the PM cartridge to reduce the caliber, except for distortions, there is a ready-made solution - 7,65 × 21 mm Parabellum

                        Actually, it was originally about cheapness. And the creation of an army service cartridge based on a police service cartridge. Those. the PM SERIAL sleeve is taken and squeezed under the TT SERIAL bullet. The result is a cheap army service cartridge with a more or less bearable, unlike PM, permeable bullet ability.
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        As for the skews - for cartridges 9x17 and 9x18 it is impossible to create a handle with a convenient tilt - the skews begin

                        And about the distortions, I repeat, the weapon must be able to do.
            2. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok April 6 2017 22: 50
              0
              Quote: rasteer
              The difference between the dimensions of the PM and PAIR sleeves is 1 mm in length, and the difference in the weight of gunpowder is 0,25 g PM, 0,46-0,48 g PARA. Tchert Karl like these bourgeois stuffed so much gunpowder into this 1 mm wink

              1. Germans drowned a bullet into a cartridge case
              2. the whole volume is used in the sleeve ...
              3. the weight of the powder charge was 0,36 grams and not 0.46.
              4. The NATO 9x21 P ++ army cartridges use high-impulse gunpowder with a high burning rate (their analogues are simply not available in Russia) having a high density, which means that they weigh the same volume. These cartridges cannot be used in pistols designed for standard cartridge-breaks the barrel. and even the framework. A bunch of pictures of such trunks ...
              1. rasteer
                rasteer April 7 2017 07: 24
                0
                Actually, I explained to him that the PM and 9 * 18 cartridges are tied to each other and the point is not whether the cartridge can be upgraded, it can be done even by doing the same operations that you write about here, but the PM will not stand up to such a cartridge. And freewheel automation limits the scope for modernization.
                1. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok April 7 2017 17: 22
                  0
                  the point is not only whether the PM will withstand or not, but that the design of the cartridge itself, and in particular the bullet, unlike the Parabellum one, has structurally poor aerodynamics, a small mass and a bunch of other design limitations.
                  When creating a cartridge, the task was to create the most powerful cartridge for a free shutter and with the maximum stopping effect of the bullet. In order to achieve any acceptable results, it is necessary to increase the length of the bullet, and therefore reduce the volume of gunpowder. Do you need to explain where this will lead?
                  1. rasteer
                    rasteer April 7 2017 18: 10
                    0
                    Well, so here we are back to the fact that the bullet and the PMa barrel are so connected that one cannot be upgraded without the other, which is equal to developing a new barrel and it is good if only it.
                    1. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok April 10 2017 02: 28
                      0
                      Quote: rasteer
                      Well, so here we are back to the fact that the bullet and the barrel of PMa are connected

                      everything is correct, at first they made a cartridge for more than a year, then a pistol for 3 years. By the way, at the competition there were at least 4 samples, and all in 2 versions, under 9x18 and 7,65x17. The PM won only by the fact that by 10 degrees it reduced the angle of the handle from the requirements of the customer - the comfort of holding deteriorated, the accuracy decreased, because the cartridge was stopped sticking.
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok April 6 2017 21: 36
      0
      Quote: Black Colonel
      And what is 7,62x25 worse? The technology has been worked out, the equipment is probably available, the ammunition is well-known, the energy is enough to send the adversary on indefinite vacation.
      stocks of cartridges were destroyed back in the 90s, and they’ve been trying to release new ones for about ten years now, but they’ve never done the quality ...
      Using this sleeve it is better to do 6,5 or 9x25mm (there was such a cartridge for the Mauser), although the latter is more suitable for PP, that's why it did not take root.
      In my opinion, from modern cartridges .40S & w or amerovskoy cartridge case from 9x23 with a bullet from parabellum and modern gunpowders is more suitable.
      1. F.NN
        F.NN April 8 2017 09: 43
        0
        Quote: 4-th Paradise
        In my opinion .40S & w is more suitable from modern cartridges.

        I completely agree. Great cartridge.
  7. Black_Vatnik
    Black_Vatnik 15 March 2017 16: 47
    0
    Why don't we go the same way? To take as a basis the reliable and well-established Berdysh special forces and make a modern pistol on its basis? And then I feel the Concern with its PL-15 will be wrinkled for a long time.
    1. mr.redpartizan
      mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 18: 17
      +2
      OTs-27 is not needed by the army, its concept is flawed. Why do we need weapons for four different calibers, creating many problems in terms of logistics, training, shooting and repair? A pistol with a free shutter chambered for 9x19 mm is an idiocy that has no analogues in the world.
      It is better to sell old stocks of 7,62x25 mm TT and 9x18 mm PM rounds of ammunition and use shooting training for youth than to try to create new weapons for them.
      1. Black_Vatnik
        Black_Vatnik 15 March 2017 19: 15
        +1
        No one speaks different calibers (in the sc-27 there are 3 of them, if memory serves). Take 9x19 as a basis, and build on this caliber.
        Unfortunately, I have no personal experience. But from what he heard and read, Berdysh has more positive reviews than the same ПЯ and ГШ.
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok April 6 2017 23: 22
          0
          Quote: Black_Jacket
          But from what he heard and read, Berdysh has more positive reviews than the same ПЯ and ГШ.

          See also it opinion wink
  8. Strength
    Strength 15 March 2017 17: 08
    +3
    A huge plus of this gun is its modularity. No wonder he won against Glock
  9. Kenneth
    Kenneth 15 March 2017 17: 48
    +1
    Beautiful gun. And judging by the functional description
  10. Svetozarny
    Svetozarny 15 March 2017 18: 33
    +3
    I’ll insert my 5 cents. PM is sufficient for police officers with its good stopping effect, but it is unsuitable for CSKA. Short sighting distance, small ammunition, low penetration. Here, even without me, everyone has already discussed, chewed and brought hundreds of arguments. The gun is needed. As well as full-fledged training in its use. And not three cartridges from Makar for passing tests.
    Z.Y. Replaceable pads on the handle of the gun (all-sized) and we would not be in the way.
  11. panzerfaust
    panzerfaust 15 March 2017 19: 03
    +1
    Well, if some Thailand was able to buy 150000 units of this Sauer, then why not Russia? Since we are clearly “sagging” with pistols and are adopting the already obsolete PY. It’s time to get born, we’ve been trampling for 25 years. After all, when something and “Nagan” and “Mauser” also bought ... Only another question, sanctions!
    1. mr.redpartizan
      mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 21: 15
      +1
      No need to buy anything, our development is no worse. The question rests on the price and workmanship, which often leaves much to be desired. Nothing prevents to bring to mind the SR-1, GSH-18 and PL-14.
    2. bunta
      bunta 15 March 2017 22: 27
      0
      Quote: panzerfaust
      already obsolete

      In which place?
      1. panzerfaust
        panzerfaust 16 March 2017 19: 22
        0
        Well, as noted here, the UE corresponds to the level of the 1970s.
        1. bunta
          bunta 17 March 2017 07: 09
          0
          The water level in Lake Baikal? According to its characteristics (dimensions, weight, number of cartridges), the ПЯ corresponds to P320 full size. A bit heavier due to the metal frame, but in the version with the polymer, the Viking is identical. Vitality brought to 50 000. The whole difference is in USM and unification with small modifications of P320. The advantage of a shock trigger system over a trigger is controversial, but unification, yes, that's great. It is necessary to remind who was the author of the idea of ​​unification in small arms?
    3. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok April 6 2017 23: 24
      0
      Quote: panzerfaust
      Well, if some Thailand was able to buy 150000 units of this Sauer, then why not Russia?

      Thailand is not an indicator., And by no means a role model.
  12. Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 15 March 2017 20: 15
    0
    There should be one gun for both the army and the police. The difference should be only in the length of the barrel - the army version is full-sized, and the police version is more compact.
    The cartridge, given that the threat has increased not only from armed crime, but also from terrorists, is better than 9-19 mm
    For specialists - the free choice of any weapon, given their small numbers, is an entirely acceptable solution.
    Py.Sy. In terms of design, the Beretta was nicer.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 15 March 2017 20: 56
      0
      Why do police need 9x19? 9x17mm is enough for them.
      1. mr.redpartizan
        mr.redpartizan 15 March 2017 21: 40
        +3
        Why not .22LR at once? Are the American police cretins if they use 9x19mm + P + or .40 S&W rounds?
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 16 March 2017 07: 21
          0
          Less bounce. Injury will do so. Fewer people will die.
          1. Razvedka_Boem
            Razvedka_Boem 16 March 2017 16: 59
            0
            The rebound problem can be solved with a special bullet shape, there are already such ammunition. And at the present time, situations are not uncommon when a guaranteed target defeat is required. And here 9x18 or 9x17 cartridges no longer meet the requirements of the police.
            Also note that criminals are often armed with automatic weapons and may have bulletproof vests.
            While the special forces arrive, a policeman with a service weapon may be the only barrier to criminals. And in this situation, a multi-shot pistol with a normal cartridge will be very helpful.
    2. Talalikhin
      Talalikhin 23 May 2017 15: 11
      0
      For a different job - a different tool. The patrol and guard officers do not need a silencer in their work. As well as any kind of security guards. Accordingly, the possibility of installing it on the trunk is useless. But they may well run into a professional burglar or a militant fanatic, also a professional. Suddenly. At the post. And here, survival depends on the number of cartridges in the store and the stopping action of the cartridge. And also, beyond.
      A military pistol also needs a peculiar one. Not only to the officer or special forces) Machine gunner, sniper, intelligence officer, and anyone who is sent to clean the village. Like a second chance weapon. As a means of removing sentinels. As a short work tool. Here PBS is useful, and all sorts of stray, and different cartridges. And it should be easy. For after the N-th kilometer every gram is felt)
      And even for army weapons, the possibility of using enemy ammunition is damn important)
  13. Disorder
    Disorder 15 March 2017 23: 35
    0
    And why, in the USA they cannot develop their pistols?
    Mute John Browning - Mute pistol. Here they’re hanging around. One will be bought from Italians, then one from Swiss.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 15 March 2017 23: 47
      +2
      Ames purchased Zig-Sauber.
  14. tracer
    tracer 16 March 2017 01: 00
    0
    In my opinion, a bad choice. The S&W MP9 is very good. Both inexpensive and excellent quality. And the handles are replaceable. The descent had to be slightly modified. now 3.5 pounds. Striker system. Precise, excellent grip and completely invisible toss. What caused the choice of this .... It is not clear. The handle is short, even visually. The trunk is high, the toss will be more noticeable. But whoever wants it and ...... fools. It's a shame that ours are not equipped with a normal pistol. Ardent ..... such junk .. Rook ... idiots patients with megalomania did, I can't say anything about the berdysh. Didn't shoot from him.
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok April 6 2017 23: 28
      0
      Quote: tracer
      In my opinion a bad choice.

      Duck Amemerian military still did not say that he was chosen, only the manufacturer, and this can be a regular advertisement.
  15. Comrade Stalin
    Comrade Stalin 16 March 2017 09: 46
    +2
    I don’t like pistols of the gunless system. Some kind of irrational (and maybe not irrational at all) fear that a bezurkova system can break loose and shoot right in your pocket. For me, the best trigger with a double action.
    1. mr.redpartizan
      mr.redpartizan 16 March 2017 18: 03
      0
      Now half of all new models of pistols have a shock trigger, which does not interfere with their popularity. The circuit has been worked out for a long time and has proven its reliability and safety in handling. Weapons without a trigger have fewer holes for dirt, less clings to clothes when removing.

    2. rasteer
      rasteer 16 March 2017 19: 09
      0
      For me, the best double action trigger
      Here, as they say in taste and color, all tomatoes are round, to each his own.
      Then AK is not worth picking up, you do not control the direct position of its trigger.
  16. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 16 March 2017 15: 07
    +1
    Quote: panzerfaust
    Well, if some Thailand was able to buy 150000 units of this Sauer, then why not Russia? Since we are clearly “sagging” with pistols and are adopting the already obsolete PY. It’s time to get born, 25 years marking time. After all, when something and “Nagan” and “Mauser” also bought ... Only another question, sanctions!

    Yes, we have a lot of interesting things.
    This one is very cute: https://topwar.ru/25743-pistolet-oc-23-drotik-ne-
    smeyte-zakapyvat.html

    It is clear that most of the "users" will raise the howl-caliber is small (do not forget about five seven), as with such a mammoth you will go, the stopping effect is weak, the mass is large, etc., etc.
    But the machine is very pretty. Of course not for elegant female hands.
    Just my size, even choose PC mouse size XXL fellow
    1. panzerfaust
      panzerfaust April 7 2017 18: 40
      0
      I agree with you, I also wanted to mention Dart.
  17. unknown
    unknown 17 March 2017 10: 16
    0
    And it was worth to fence the garden.
    In the competition, where Beretta won, also participated Zig-Zaurer P-226.
    And technically it passed.
    Some kind of de vu.
    1. rasteer
      rasteer 17 March 2017 21: 45
      0
      And this is the P-320 ... the magic of the numbers, however)))
  18. The comment was deleted.
    1. panzerfaust
      panzerfaust 17 March 2017 19: 02
      0
      Vladimir G. Fedorov.
  19. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok April 10 2017 01: 42
    0
    F.NN,
    Quote: F.NN
    Quote: 4-th Paradise
    In most states, police are forbidden to use weapons under a cartridge weaker than 9x21

    That's right. And without grenade launchers, they also do not go on patrols.
    Quote: 4-th Paradise
    It was specially created before the police in order to shoot at criminals through the doors of cars ...

    Do not confuse police with police special forces. These are different things.

    1. I was sealed (it seems several times) 9x19, and not 9x21 ...
    2. Do not confuse the USA and blue France, they have a different attitude to the life of the police, and the ernichin about the grenade launcher only shows the level of your intelligence ...
    3. Do not confuse American guards with French special forces, but rather ask a question.
  20. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok April 10 2017 19: 44
    0
    F.NN,
    Quote: F.NN
    Quote: 4-th Paradise
    TT bullet was made on the basis of the cartridge 7,63 × 25 mm Mauser

    Okay, let's go deeper. The cartridge sleeve 7,63 × 25 mm Mauser, was originally under 9 mm bullet (cartridge Mauser Export), was pinched under 7,63 mm bullet.
    That's better?
    Quote: 4-th Paradise
    No need to force the PM cartridge to reduce the caliber, except for distortions, there is a ready-made solution - 7,65 × 21 mm Parabellum

    Actually, it was originally about cheapness. And the creation of an army service cartridge based on a police service cartridge. Those. the PM SERIAL sleeve is taken and squeezed under the TT SERIAL bullet. The result is a cheap army service cartridge with a more or less bearable, unlike PM, permeable bullet ability.
    Quote: 4-th Paradise
    As for the skews - for cartridges 9x17 and 9x18 it is impossible to create a handle with a convenient tilt - the skews begin

    And about the distortions, I repeat, the weapon must be able to do.

    Your next attempt to block the answers says only one thing - you yourself know that you are carrying complete nonsense ... But in order.
    1. An export sample is an export one, and with rare exceptions is done later. In the case of 9x25, he also appeared a few years later, and was too powerful, and therefore quickly disappeared from the scene. The 7,63x25 mm cartridge Mauser was built on the basis of 7,65 × 25 mm Borchardt under smoky powder. The main difference is the wall thickness. The TT cartridge is the grandson of the Borchord generation, and 9x35 is his uncle, not his father. So study the materiel.
    2. You can come up with a lot of things, but this does not mean that this “something” needs to be put into practice, it makes no sense to spend money on experiments whose results are known.
    3. So do it, and not masturbate with the keyboard. Learn from American students:
    Moderators are not educational films ...
  21. Clone
    Clone 19 June 2017 23: 06
    0
    Quote: Geronimo73
    no turners in service for a long time

    Not in service, but in storage, you see, the darkness is dark. And, as they said, on some specialized TV channel, TT is a weapon for the last reserve. repeat
  22. Vys
    Vys 26 June 2017 04: 36
    0
    Honestly, I didn’t like the P 320, and even at a price of $ 600 it’s not so cheap. The 92 Beretta is nicer, and the VP 9 is even more.
  23. Forest
    Forest 18 July 2017 16: 48
    0
    "which is inserted into a plastic frame"-understandably)
  24. 1536
    1536 18 July 2017 16: 50
    0
    Quote: NEXUS
    I'm more interested in what kind of pistol we are officially going to adopt, as a service weapon ... otherwise somehow the makars and turners are already quite old ...

    Isn’t Yarygin’s gun accepted? Since the 2012 year has become massive.