Field Marshal Kutuzov as a problem for the Russian intelligentsia stratum

161
Field Marshal Kutuzov as a problem for the Russian intelligentsia stratum


This article appeared as a result of the material submitted by our very old bbss reader.



WHOM DO WE HAVE MONUMENTS: THE TRUE DOCUMENTARY IMAGE OF MI KUTUZOV.

The essence is not new: another attempt to "correct" our history by pouring a tub of dirt. This time the object of "historical research" was Michael Illarionovich Kutuzov.

Kutuzov is largely a controversial personality. Yes, he got it from his contemporaries for the desire to break upward by any means. Including using coffee for Platon Zubov, a favorite of Catherine the Great. But Mikhail Illarionovich didn’t get into the story, not as a Duty barista, but as a warlord. But each of us has our own story.

I think you need to start with a small portrait of the judges. So to say, and who are the judges?

The main prosecutor is a certain Yevgeny Ponasenkov. He himself is a busy man, because groups in social networks are led by his unfading talent for him. But - judge for yourself what is written in the profiles.

"Director, singer (drama tenor), actor, TV host, producer, scholar-historian, political scientist, poet, writer and public figure. Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences and Arts (RuAN)."

And the reader, and the reaper, and the dude igrets. One wonders how one person can work fruitfully in so many fields. Well, a bunch of actor-director, poet-writer, lead-producer-director - this is understandable. But all in one bottle? You start to think about quality.

Academician Rouen - everything is simple. Enough to apply the search on the Internet, it becomes clear and understandable that the Rouan Academy is the same academy as some of our commercial universities.

“RuAN is an autonomous non-profit organization. Carries out research and development in the field of natural and technical sciences. She publishes journals, reference books and works on the history of science. The Academy was created by 11 February 2003 in order to support and develop Russian and international intellectual projects, as well as mutual support and upholding the interests of intellectuals in the following areas: Russian science, culture, business projects and their informational support. ”

In short, the cabal "for their". It is clear what kind of academicians there are. Their. Go ahead, there is nothing to comment on.

Director of 3 musical, 6 dramatic performances, as well as many poetic and musical performances.
Director and director of the Classical Music Program “House of Friends of the Olympiad” at the Russian Olympic Committee (director of performances in Beijing-2008).


Well, I will not lie, until now I have never heard anything about Ponasenkov as a director, so naturally, I didn’t rush to look for his masterpieces and get acquainted with them.

And then comes the most interesting.

The Man of the Year - 2003 of the Biographical Society at the US Congress and the nominee of the International Biographical Center (Cambridge) (also included in the 2000 of 21 outstanding intellectuals of the century). His biography has been published in the Who's Who: Russian Edition encyclopedias (reprinted starting from 2003 onwards).

Doot ... Already warmer. Not a single Russian award, not a word, but highly respected in the West. Recognition by a society feeding on the bounty of the US Congress - that says a lot. If a person is elected to the number of those about whom this sub-congress center writes - yes, this is a lump! Chelovechische!

Well, the encyclopedia "Who is who" we do not take into account, it itself Rauan and publishes. Themselves and praise.

Well, I'd add on my own that the favorite tribunes of Ponasenkov are “MK” and Radio Liberty.

So what is the output? And the output is nothing special. No, undoubtedly, Ponasenkov is a cultured and educated person; I do not dispute this. Here is just one question arises from the song: “Boys, whose will you be? Who is leading you into battle? ”The singer-actor-director-producer-poet-writer-academician ... Multiple chanter, in short. And also a historian. To really heap.

With the story, however, easier. Here we see the usual copy-paste written earlier by N. A. Troitsky. Doctor of Historical Sciences, Professor Troitsky died in the 2014 year, so I am very brief about him. Born in Saratov and worked all his life at Saratov State University. He was considered the largest specialist in the history of political processes (courts) in Russia.

He opposed the idealization of many figures of pre-revolutionary Russia, got it from the Trinity and the Romanovs, and their subordinates (Stolypin, Witte and many others).

Author of books about Alexander I, Napoleon, Field Marshal Kutuzov. He was categorically against the "patriotic" mythology, believed that Barclay de Tolly made a greater contribution to the victory in the war than Kutuzov, an opponent of the view that Kutuzov was a more outstanding commander than Napoleon ("Napoleon is a world magnitude, Kutuzov is a national ").

In general, "against all." Troitsky's book “The Patriotic War of 1812, the History of the Theme” was republished in the USA on 1993. Numerous foreign scientists cited his works, from F. Venturi to R. Pipes.

Thanks largely to the work of Trinity, Saratov University received a grant from the Soros Foundation. But this is not customary to speak loudly. Although it would be worth it.

Trinity Kutuzov did not like. Good. And for some reason, Kutuzov did not like Ponasenkov. Perhaps because it was just something to push off. And, without going into details, as is customary in the creative intelligentsia, Ponasenkov simply took from the works of Trinity and (for a change, apparently) Pushkin’s memories all the most negative and began to sculpt.

The image turned out just a masterpiece. The court flatterer, a hypocrite, a womanizer, and an absolutely worthless warlord, who lost everything he could.

And Ponasenkov puts the question in his libel: but to those individuals, we put the monuments?

“In the past few weeks, scabies have been added to the“ memorial obsession ”... Yes, the real legislative scabies are to protect dates, names,“ heroes ”,“ victories ”(evils ...), and the like. All this immediately hints that much of the list could have been simply made up by propaganda! ”

What can I say? What a happiness that in a dull and incapable of correctly assessing the mass of the people is Ponasenkov! Which will open our eyes to TRUTH!

"I emphasize: every fact is based on a document, all of which are given in references and are well known to scientists, but not to a mass audience."

In the references in the text you can see as many as three names of scientists: A.N. Troitsky (undoubtedly), A.S. Pushkin (yes, a poet, a contemporary), and ... Ponasenkov himself! The second and third, sorry, I will put you in doubt.

Alexander Pushkin at the time of the events was 13 years. Alas, not the age when you can properly assess what is happening around, especially the war. The fact that Alexander Sergeevich recorded gossip and rumors around Kutuzov was yes, he could. But I think that Pushkin Ponasenkov added solely to give credibility. As well as the memories of Rostopchin and Lanzheron as presented by Ponasenkov himself.

In general, it's pretty funny: write libel, referring to himself in another libel.

Top of cynicism.

Let's return to Kutuzov. If you believe Ponasenkov, it turns out that he did not possess any talents, except for pleasing and kowtowing to his superiors. However, the real story begins.

According to Ponasenkov, “Before the 1805 war, which ended with the defeat of the Russians at Austerlitz, Kutuzov did not carry out the main command, but was merely an executive officer under the command of A.V. Suvorov and P.A. Rumyantsev. His main talent was the gift of a courtier, who in the eighteenth century could profitably replace all other abilities. ”

And here the key word is very simple and very Russian - Suvorov.

Alexander Vasilyevich (correct, if he became like Ponasenkov), he didn’t creep before anyone (the only one who could probably afford such things in that Russia) and didn’t tolerate sycophants.

Yes, Kutuzov served under the command of Suvorov.

Kinburn, Ochakov, Causeni, Akkerman, Bender, Ishmael. This is only the second Russian-Turkish war. It was about Kutuzov that Suvorov wrote: “... by setting himself a personal example of courage and fearlessness, he overcame all the difficulties he had encountered under the strong fire of the enemy; I skipped over the palisade, warned the aspirations of the Turks, quickly took off onto the shaft of the fortress, mastered the bastion and many batteries ... General Kutuzov walked on my left wing; but it was my right hand. "

Suvorov - I believe.

And in the mentioned war with Napoleon 1805 of the year, in which, according to Ponasenkov, there was only defeat at Austerlitz, Kutuzov took part in it as commander of the army. Yes, under Austerlitz was defeated. But for some reason, Ponasenkov "forgot" that the command of the army at Austerlitz was not Kutuzov, but Alexander. The Emperor. A battle plan was developed by the Austrians, beaten by both Napoleon and Suvorov. Politics…

And before being defeated at Austerlitz, the Russian army very confidently hung Murat near Amstetten (October 24 1805) and Mortier under Krems (October 30 1805).

Let me remind you that the battle of Austerlitz took place on December 2, at the insistence of the Austrian side. We just look at the dates, transfer to 200 years ago, and try to understand how easy it was to fight three times in a week with a not very weak opponent.

After this war, according to our “historian,” Kutuzov committed adultery in Romania. At the age of 64 years with 14-year-old local noblewoman. One can only envy the peasant, we all would be so.

But adultery was adultery, and the battles near Ruschuk and Slobodzeya in the rank of commander Kutuzov won and confidently brought the Turks to complete surrender. And 16 May 1812, in Bucharest, it was Kutuzov who made the peace, according to which Bessarabia with part of Moldova passed to Russia.

Not bad for a monsoblue and a saint, aren't you?

Go to the most important part. World War 1812 of the year.

It is worth reminding everyone that by this time Russia had been fighting almost without interruption for 40 and over:

Russian-Turkish war 1768 — 1774
Russian-Turkish war 1787 — 1791
Russian-Iranian War 1804 — 1813
The first campaign against Napoleon 1805
The second campaign against Napoleon 1806 — 1807.
Russian-Turkish war 1806 — 1812
Russian-Swedish War 1808 — 1809

And playing along with the “European team”, that is, the “army of two languages”, was problematic. It cannot be said that these wars have exhausted Russia, no. But it was very difficult to fight against the enemy forces superior at that time, led by excellent commanders.

Nevertheless, in Ponasenkov, it turns out that all the problems in the Russian army began at the very moment when Alexander put Kutuzov at the head. Until that time, everything was going just fine, "the thunder of victory was heard," and as soon as Kutuzov became commander-in-chief, everything began to fall apart. Place and time - under Smolensk, already left, August 1812 of the year.

Until then, the Russian army was retreating ... I don’t know how much Barclay de Tolly’s fault was here, but Kutuzov acted in much the same way as his predecessor. But de Tolly is a hero (according to Trinity and Ponasenkov), and Kutuzov is a slacker. Despite the fact that both did one thing. And they made it in the end.

Then I allow myself some quotes from hysterical pseudo-historical nonsense.

“The French live quietly in Moscow for 36 days (well, if they got a train with food, they would have lived until the Gorbachev thaw), but then the persecution of the Russian army begins again - the battle of Maloyaroslavets.”

O our oppositional intelligentsia! Only a person who really has a rich inner world and an educated person can paint such nonsense! And, turning everything inside out!

What is the "pursuit of the Russian army"? There was nothing to eat for the French in Moscow burned and ravaged! Almost 100 of thousands of soldiers and God knows how many horses! They had to be fed! Napoleon was not pursuing the Russian army, but he wanted to get to the provinces untouched by the war. Where it was possible to get hold of hay, bread and meat. Neither people nor horses fight without it.

But, apparently, the actor-historian who badly imagines military being is hard to understand. And because he continues to continue to compete Zadornov.

“The Russian troops that had supported their forces and rested in the camp (being in a fortified position in the city!) Lose, and Kutuzov orders us to retreat to the Linen Plants. Napoleon realizes that Kutuzov can, with the same level of military talent, run to Kamchatka, that the frost is approaching, that the country is not adapted to life - and decides to move in the direction where there is food (to the West). I note that in Europe, French soldiers, as decent, bought food from local residents for golden napoleonds, while in Russia there was nowhere to buy food. And not only to the French: instead of a market system, spirituality and collectivity, that is, there are no European stores as a class (except for the French hats boutique in Moscow). ”

Isn't it a masterpiece? The battle of Maloyaroslavets can be interpreted as anything, and as a tactical victory of the French, and as a strategic Russian. The fact is one thing: to the south, where it is warmer and more satisfying, Napoleon did not miss Kutuzov.

But the essence here is different. And about this Ponasenkov writes, but as it should be, through a stump-deck. And let's think about this. If the French were such nyashki, and paid with full-fledged napoleondory for all that was eaten, then God himself told them to go the way they went to Russia. Well, there they have already eaten everything. And grocery stores and supermarkets they all burned. For uselessness.

As for the fact that the French, familiar to culture, had no place to buy food in Russia - well, only this pearl is worthy of a prize from Sores. Barbarous country, what can I say ... there are no shops.

Ah, poor French! We searched for, searched for markets, from Brest to Moscow itself. And they did not find one. And the stupid population, who did not understand the European values, met and escorted Napoleonic warriors with axes and forks. Like invaders and robbers. Barbarians, one word.

And to the south, where it was still possible to plunder, Kutuzov did not let him go. Or Napoleon did not dare, because he realized that he had lost. It does not matter, honestly. The fact is that the French army had to go the same way, through looted and ravaged cities. Where they, except for the "golden napoleonorov", nothing shone.

And there were a few roads in that Russia ... One-two and miscalculated. Smolensk was without prospects, and it was necessary to go to Kiev through the stupid and cowardly Kutuzov.

The question arises, why did the smart and brave Napoleon not dare to defeat the Russian army, “ready to retreat to Kamchatka” and rush to Ukraine?

Something is not glued, do not find?

"Kutuzov does not go on the offensive, but goes on a" parallel march ", without even trying to seriously disturb the army of Napoleon."

Happiness! Happiness in the understanding that such as Ponasenkov to the army, if they get, then in small quantities. Of course, he would have led the regiments to the decisive offensive and Napoleon would have driven into the coffin under the same Smolensk!

A coward and a slacker Kutuzov is parallel to the French army. By unacked cities and villages where their own. All yours. And it just closes Napoleon south. The rest is made by frost, lack of food and those who are called partisans.

Why "accepted"? Just because, in our understanding, the partisan detachment is a militia armed with what. Peasants, townspeople ...

But Barclay de Tolly began organizing the partisan struggle, forming a "flying squad" from the Kazan Dragoons, three Don Cossacks and the Stavropol Kalmyk regiments under the general command of F. Vintsinerode. Guerrilla detachment of five regiments ... And he was not the only one. Kutuzov continued this practice. For example, the squad of V. Orlov-Denisov included 6 Cossack regiments, Nezhinsky Dragoon regiment and 4 guns of Don horse artillery.

Of course, these shelves did not disturb Napoleon. The brigade of the same General Augereau apparently disappeared herself, and Orlov-Denisov and Davydov stood side by side ... Smoked pipes ...

Yes, give Ponasenkovu battles, with tens of thousands who died on both sides. I do not know why. Kutuzov did everything very well. Dodging the general battles, brought the European team to a very deplorable state.

And a couple more words about Kutuzov's colleagues. About Bagration and Barclay de Tolly. Ponasenkov and Troitsky believe that the incompetent Kutuzov simply survived de Tolly from the position of commander. And de Tolly would have been more useful if he had remained on the post of commander in chief.

Here it is necessary to think carefully over a simple question: how much did Kutuzov need it? If you believe (which is stupid) Ponasenkov, Kutuzov hypocrisy and servility struck his way to the top. In the royal chambers. Well, so be it.

But would it not be easier for Kutuzov to take advantage of the fruits of his “labor” and stay at court? Where is quiet, dry and does not drip? What was bothering him? After all, if everything the unfortunate historian is talking about is true, then Kutuzov should have simply enjoyed his success. However, in May 1812 of the year he accepts the surrender of the Turks, and in August he was at war with Napoleon.

And I recall a small aspect. Kutuzov 65 years. Even in our time, this is already a solid age. And 200 years ago? Deep old age

However, this man goes to war again. And here Kutuzov-commander and Kutuzov-diplomat came in handy. By the way, if anyone is interested, read the terms of the Bucharest peace treaty 1812 of the year between Russia and Turkey.

Kutuzov, a diplomat appointed by Alexander the First Commander-in-Chief, became the force that united Bagration and Barclay de Tolly. And two excellent commander stopped squabble among themselves. For Ponasenkov, of course, the secret is that Barclay de Tolly showered reports and notes of the emperor, and Bagration did not lag behind, blaming all the failures of the "Gad German".

Kutuzov took on a huge responsibility. The army after a series of failures, a hard winter, reserves that will not come soon, talented generals who hate each other. Who can say whether Kutuzov was so stupid that he did not understand that he would pay for the defeat? And already no court tricks can save the situation. Yes, he understood perfectly.

It is a pity that this is not understood by the “historians”, who in life, if they made marches, then to the nearest market. And how gloriously the commanders like Ponasenkov have skillfully and correctly fought, we, people who know a little more singers and producers in history and military science, know.

Ponasenkov remembers the Polish lands in the 20s of the last century, and the Ukrainian and Russian lands in the 40s. Remember.

Russian land! How hard you are that you allow you to crawl on your own with such “accusers” and seekers of “historical truth” who, in fact, are only able to curse everything that is sacred.

I do not like Ulyanov, but he was right three times and nine times, saying his famous, albeit not quite cultural, phrase about the “layer”. She is taken aback, what they are, “stratified”, intelligent and all-knowing. With what ease they take to spit on everything they can reach.

One consolation: not so many of them. And this is our happiness. Until. And the happiness of Ponasenkov, that while they do not touch.

Here is a story. The trouble, of course, is that the shoemaker will start baking our pies, and the pastry maker will boot our boots. But the trouble is no less if the actor-poet-prose writer-writer-director-producer-academician and public figure also begins to think of himself as a historian. To the military.

Just trouble.

Our dear (dear, dear you cost us) from the layer! Well, do not wake the bear, do not touch with your dirty tongues what is dear to us and holy. Our patience is not endless after all.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

161 comment
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +19
    16 February 2017 06: 25
    Kutuzov is the hero of Russia at all times, and you should not touch him with filthy languages.
    1. +6
      16 February 2017 07: 16
      Quote: Spartanez300
      Kutuzov is the hero of Russia at all times , and.


      And it is impossible to challenge anyone.
      And who are the ponasenko?
      It’s not worth paying attention ......
      1. +7
        16 February 2017 09: 01
        Yes !!!
        90th left - "whistleblowers" remained.
        The only thing that pleases is that young people are slowly starting to get vaccinated against "revelatory brain rage."
        Very good vaccination !!!
    2. +18
      16 February 2017 10: 09
      Quote: Spartanez300
      Kutuzov is the hero of Russia at all times, and you should not touch him with filthy languages.

      Kutuzov, Suvorov and other famous Russian names have been remembered for centuries, and these panasenkovy, amnesties and other shushara will be forgotten just a few minutes after leaving the television studio, but the stench from them is long unfortunately.
    3. 0
      19 February 2017 19: 19
      Spartanez300
      Gold words ! You can not read further.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +13
    16 February 2017 06: 43
    Well, the heroes of the Great Patriotic War turned out to be too tough for the exposers, now they delve into the history
    1. +13
      16 February 2017 06: 55
      Well, the heroes of the Great Patriotic War turned out to be too tough for the exposers, now they delve into the history


      Hello ELENA! hi this is not the first or last attempt to run into our heroes ...
      in the WEST, a special unit of information troops has been set up aimed at the destruction and reformatting of our history .. the war of our country against aggression from the WEST continues in a different form and plane.
      1. +5
        16 February 2017 08: 46
        Do you really believe that?
        1. +15
          16 February 2017 09: 36
          Kenneth Today, 08:46 ↑ New
          Do you really believe that?
          The hat is on the thief! laughing But how not to believe, if you honor people like you and think, how can the Russian land endure you? You and Panasenkov are one gop company, and you’re not just placing your dirty posts there, you are the “fighter” of these same “information troops” ...
          The viper burned. laughing
          1. +5
            16 February 2017 10: 00
            Write more. You amused me
            1. +9
              16 February 2017 10: 46
              Kenneth Today, 10:00 ↑ New
              Write more. You amused me
              You cannot even answer in the original way. As soon as you catch your hand in your own lies, you all answer without exception with this phrase. It seems that all of you in the incubator are taught one instruction manual, and a step to the left to the right is punishable by execution. You even answer all according to the same pattern.
              1. +1
                16 February 2017 11: 25
                You ... me .... on a lie ?????? You made me laugh again. Write again.
        2. +8
          16 February 2017 09: 50
          Do you really believe that?


          Oh my God what how little you know ...
          in such a vast world as the Internet, you can find out a bit of interesting things that are not advertised by official bodies ... the main thing is to work hard with your brain ...

          as the hero CONAN DOYLE used to say ... by a drop of water we can conclude that there is a NIAGARA waterfall.
          1. +2
            16 February 2017 09: 59
            Not for you to evaluate my knowledge. You seem to get yours exclusively from Ren TV
            1. +7
              16 February 2017 10: 10
              Not for you to evaluate my knowledge. You seem to get yours exclusively from Ren TV


              Do not be offended hi I didn’t mean to offend you.
              I try to draw my knowledge from everywhere ...
              From books, first of all, TV, radio, the Internet, special literatures, from the street, from the communication of people ... any person exists in the air environment and he literally swims in the ocean of information in the modern world.
              For me, living without new information is like without a piece of bread ... you start to starve smile .

              I have collections of all technical and scientific journals from the first years of release (in electronic form, of course) ...
              I'll tell you ... smile in them I feel like in paradise ... all the time you find something new.
              1. +2
                16 February 2017 10: 13
                Strictly similar. Therefore, I am enraged by comments about my knowledge that do not contain refutation of my theses
                1. +2
                  18 February 2017 18: 31
                  And what theses? “You amused me ...” - this is not a thesis, but trollism
          2. +3
            17 February 2017 12: 24
            Thank you to the author for the article. I have well and intelligibly analyzed Kutuzov’s activities in the military sphere. Maybe he (Kutozov) was not as talented as Napoleon, but however, Napoleon wandered from Moscow, and not Kutuzov from Paris.
    2. +8
      16 February 2017 06: 58
      Maybe much worse, ----- such a vile training, pen test !!!!! And a frequently asked question ---- why did buffoons think of themselves as politicians, as teachers of the people? Apparently, a vacuum has been created in this regard, so they are trying to take places. And why do others lead his groups on social networks ------ so he does not speak the language. !!!!!! That's what !!!!
    3. +4
      16 February 2017 08: 52
      Oh Elena. Now this is 2004 when the book was written. And the author, by the way, graduated from the history department of Moscow State University and specialized in this topic. And I'm afraid I know from it more than the vast majority of forum users.
      1. +5
        16 February 2017 09: 38
        Kenneth Today, 08:52 ↑ New
        Oh Elena. Now this is 2004 when the book was written. And the author, by the way, graduated from the history department of Moscow State University and specialized in this topic. And I'm afraid I know from it more than the vast majority of forum users.
        Are you talking about Panasenkov?
        1. +1
          16 February 2017 09: 57
          Naturally not about the novel.
          1. +9
            16 February 2017 10: 51
            Kenneth Today, 09:57 ↑ New
            Naturally not about the novel.
            I see ...
            And the author, by the way, studied at the history department of Moscow State University and specialized in this topic.
            Judging by his biography, he only did not study on the Moon and on Mars. Directly the master of semi-colonial sciences. From him a historian, like a ballerina from me ... laughing
            And I'm afraid I know from it more than the vast majority of forum users.
            I’m saying that you are with him from the same gop company. The novel perfectly described his "knowledge" in this thread.

            Want to talk about the war of 1812? I'm afraid that your knowledge does not apply above the baseboard ...
            1. +3
              16 February 2017 11: 37
              In any case, my baseboard is taller than your crown. And Roman, unlike you, even read the monograph. And I read. And by the way I do not agree with the conclusions. But I'm not afraid to discuss this with you.
            2. +4
              18 February 2017 07: 30
              I assure you that this gentleman, also a fan of Leo Samuilovich Klein, an archaeologist, specialist in the Bronze Age, who for some reason became a specialist in the 10th century of Russia.
              Vikings seem to him everywhere.
              You are right - this is a focused program. Your opponent repeats quotes of the same parrots as a parrot.
              A good article is Fomin V. "Klein as a diagnosis." They all have a "diagnosis" of hatred of Russia.
      2. +14
        16 February 2017 11: 12
        Quote: Kenneth
        Oh Elena. Now this is 2004 when the book was written. And the author, by the way, graduated from the history department of Moscow State University and specialized in this topic. And I'm afraid I know from it more than the vast majority of forum users.

        In fact, Mr. Panasenkov wrote garbage. He did not even manage to study the great academician Tarle, whose work today is the foundation of Russian Napoleonic studies. In short, a dummy.
        1. +4
          16 February 2017 11: 35
          In fact, he studied at the history faculty and studied Tarle. And mentioned in the article. But not Tarle single .... he is not the only historian of this period.
          1. +5
            16 February 2017 18: 09
            In fact, he studied at the history faculty and studied Tarle. More precisely, I had to study.
            But not Tarle single .... he is not the only historian of this period. Well, it’s you, my friend, who fell into heresy. First, the foundation of knowledge, and then laughter.
            Grantoedam should not have a place in our country. Because it’s not your own look at history, but the look of the ENEMY.
            1. +1
              16 February 2017 19: 54
              How boldly you reason. Deserve the right to truth? So you and Tarle do not need. Enough of the decisions of the next congress.
      3. +9
        16 February 2017 13: 09
        Quote: Kenneth
        2004 when the book was written. And the author, by the way, studied at the history department of Moscow State University and specialized in this topic.

        I can’t judge what he was taught there and how much.
        For me personally, it is obvious that in his letters the creative multi-stationer LIES.
        Illiteracy or conscious meanness is a separate issue.

        I don’t know where and what Roman Skomorokhov studied, but to expose the liberalistic lies of his knowledge, ENOUGH.
        This is also obvious.

        And you are trying to justify the lie of a liar with his diploma, but at the same time you evade in every possible way from discussing historical FACTS.
        1. +7
          16 February 2017 14: 03
          murriou Today, 13:09 ↑ New
          And you are trying to justify the lie of a liar with his diploma, but at the same time you evade in every possible way from discussing historical FACTS.
          Colleague hi , so he is not here to really discuss issues of history. He is here just in order to slander and pervert this very story of ours.
          For some reason, the unforgettable Leonid Filatov immediately comes to mind:
          From the tabe alone bedlam
          Shame on the king, embarrassment to the ambassadors
          I have been anterising for a long time, are you not sent to us?

          I won’t be surprised if Mr. Panasenkov himself sits under the nickname Kenneth ... laughing Or maybe he is not Panasenkov, but his real name is Panasyuk? laughing He really looks like him, like a parasuk.
          1. +3
            16 February 2017 18: 15
            parasuk.It’s still put it mildly, he’s just a big KY. (Kin-Dza-Dza)
            Yes, and the parasites will be offended tomorrow for comparing with the certified zats and will stop rushing.
          2. +1
            16 February 2017 19: 52
            What a funny right you are. Well, how else to offend me. Only this will not add any mind or knowledge to you
            1. +2
              17 February 2017 19: 44
              Quote: Kenneth
              What a funny right you are. Well, how else to offend me. Only this will not add any mind or knowledge to you

              And so we are dealing with the author. Well, for the form, so to speak, and ..... But for the content, no. You can add, definitely.
              1. 0
                18 February 2017 16: 36
                By the way, “There are no more corrupt people than artists, actors and writers” (A. Dulles)
                However, the author does not fall into one category. request
  3. +4
    16 February 2017 06: 46
    The author mixed the concepts of a cultured person and a person with a diploma. You can write a diploma to yourself and just buy it in the Metro. Samples of specialists * about everything * are clearly represented in the talk show. It is impossible to vulgarize * the rank * * of the tiligent * more than they themselves. And one more sign of * tiligent * - they are all children of wealthy parents, which allows you not to waste time and effort on work. A true specialist has no time to play a show in public, if they participate then by invitation and not every day.
    In one comedy, Pierre Richard played just such a * tiligent * very self-confident and many-speaking son of a millionaire who is trying to teach his dad and at the same time * attaches * criminals. The only real ability to speak loud and verbose on any topic.
  4. +2
    16 February 2017 06: 51
    Patience really ends!
    1. 0
      19 February 2017 16: 58
      I wish it would be over already!
  5. +7
    16 February 2017 07: 00
    (C) How easy they are to spit on everything that they can reach.

    Their number increased with the connivance of "our" government and godfathers, "taxiing" in the media. If this is “tolerance,” then I am not “tolerant,” but very angry.
  6. +7
    16 February 2017 07: 12
    As for Zubov, I read about the next case. When he was a favorite, Kutuzov used his patronage, the matter is generally common. But when after a few years he was in disgrace and everyone turned away from him, it so happened that they met again, Kutuzov greeted him as an old friend, he did not give a damn about the opinions of the others, because of which he almost fell into disgrace himself.
    1. +2
      16 February 2017 08: 00
      He communicated with Pavel when he was not yet emperor and to visit him was dumb for a career.
      1. 0
        16 February 2017 09: 35
        I'll know.
  7. +12
    16 February 2017 07: 22
    To distort history, to make heroes criminals, the righteous to be perverts ... A worked out method of "cutting" the roots of a community that make it invincible. None of us live forever. But the Russian world is alive as long as it is proud of its heroes and its history.
  8. +4
    16 February 2017 07: 24
    A true historian should investigate why a historical figure did this and not fantasize how he would act in its place.
  9. +6
    16 February 2017 07: 37
    Grand Soros just missed
  10. +7
    16 February 2017 07: 38
    about Panasenkov .... and the reaper and the Shvets, and in general ... dets, the author of the article missed another important point: the Tarutin maneuver, when after the Borodin the Russian army simply disappeared into the air, Napoleon stupidly did not know where she was
    1. 0
      16 February 2017 08: 04
      No need to smack nonsense. It’s impossible to hide the army. Another thing is that Napoleon decided that he had already won
      1. +7
        16 February 2017 09: 21
        no need to flog nonsense categorically. read first or something
        1. +2
          16 February 2017 09: 45
          This you read on occasion. Cossacks managed to withdraw the vanguard of Murat
          But that didn’t change anything. Napoleon did not intend to pursue Kutuzov. He knew where the Russian army was already on September 14th.
      2. +4
        16 February 2017 09: 29
        the first few days, Napoleon really did not know where our army was, until Murat "found" it under Tarutino. The army left the city, according to one legend, Cossacks from traveling even specially went to meet with Murat and powder his brains to dull their vigilance.
        The question is what happened at this time, until our army was "found." Napoleon was sure that he had won, but ... no one bowed to him! And no one wrote letters with offers about the world! He didn’t have such a campaign end yet, it introduced an element of embarrassment into the actions of the French emperor - I suspect he hesitated what to do next. Plus, during this time, the troops managed to take a walk in Moscow, which burned down along the way, this all brought demoralization to the French army. That is, the army was already beginning to fall apart, and the commanders began to have a desire to leave for Europe. All that remained was to push them, on occasion.
        1. +3
          16 February 2017 10: 09
          I'm afraid that Napoleon's embarrassment had little effect on his plans
          1. +4
            16 February 2017 10: 14
            perhaps, but the rest of the war was fought on his part, let’s say, indecisively.
            1. +3
              16 February 2017 11: 39
              And he decided early that he won. And when I realized what was late
      3. +2
        16 February 2017 09: 36
        Quote: Kenneth
        Impossible to hide the army

        With the then level of intelligence and logistics is possible. For a while, of course.
        1. +1
          16 February 2017 09: 38
          For 10 days. Which did not solve anything.
          1. +9
            16 February 2017 09: 44
            the army rested, replenished supplies and increased (according to some reports, by 100 thousand people) did not solve anything laughing good
            1. +2
              16 February 2017 09: 54
              Spare me your frills. Read at least something other than a textbook
              When Murat found the Russian army, Tarutin hadn’t even had it yet.
              1. +7
                16 February 2017 10: 58
                stubbornness is not the best decoration for lack of knowledge
                1. 0
                  16 February 2017 11: 40
                  I'm afraid you're right about yourself. I gave you an argument .. dare to refute
                  1. +8
                    16 February 2017 11: 46
                    I and not only I brought several arguments - I did not notice a rebuttal, except for the stubborn one: there is no wrong. once again, spelling out - the Tarutin maneuver predetermined the further course of the war, by the way, this is not in the textbook, but, let’s say in the three-volume volume “the military history of the fatherland” it is exactly the same when it started, when it ended and the consequences.
                    1. 0
                      16 February 2017 12: 37
                      Roman, you should train your memory. You said the following "the Tarutino maneuver, when after the Borodin the Russian army simply disappeared into the air, Napoleon stupidly did not know where she was." And I wrote to you that the fact that N. lost sight of the Russian army for 10 days meant nothing. And the fact that the Tarutino maneuver is magnificent in any case, I know without you. And here is my argument again, the wretchedness of your knowledge. "When Murat found the Russian army, she didn’t even have Tarutin yet" in response to yours that supposedly while Murat was looking for Russians, "the army rested, replenished its reserves and increased (according to some reports, by 100 thousand people) it didn’t solve anything"
                      1. +7
                        16 February 2017 12: 53
                        "" For almost two weeks, Napoleon did not know the whereabouts of the Russian army until its location revealed the corps of Murat. This time has been used to maximum advantage. The warriors received a long-awaited rest, food was organized, fresh replenishment arrived. New weapons arrived from Tula, and the rest of the provinces, by order of the commander in chief, began to supply winter uniforms for the army. - The Tarutin maneuver of 1812, brilliantly conceived and brilliantly realized by Kutuzov with the help of his generals and officers, was crucial for the victory over the invader. Having managed to tear itself away from the enemy and won several weeks, the Russian army received the necessary rest, the supply of weapons, provisions and uniforms was arranged. Also, the army was replenished with a new reserve of more than 100 thousand people. "" Where Murat was 10 days, I do not even ask how tactfully I do not notice that the Tarutin maneuver began on September 17, and not 14
              2. +5
                16 February 2017 13: 17
                Quote: Kenneth
                Read at least something other than a textbook

                The ignoramuses hate textbooks, an understandable thing. laughing

                Can you argue with the textbook? To prove that Napoleon actually won in 1812, and his escape from Moscow and Russia, and the French phrase "C'est la bérézina" as a synonym for sheer collapse and failure - fiction? lol
                1. +1
                  16 February 2017 19: 49
                  The textbook is primitive and unambiguous. I am interested in the story in all the variety of documents and opinions.
                  1. +4
                    16 February 2017 22: 04
                    Quote: Kenneth
                    The textbook is primitive and unambiguous.

                    So far, you have not presented a single fact and document here, and without them no “opinion” is worth more than spitting.

                    Your unconfirmed show-offs are worth no more.

                    You can complain as much as you like about the primitiveness and uniqueness of the multiplication table, Newton's laws, etc., but your duty to know them and recognize them will not go anywhere, and your enchanting inventions will not add a penny to reliability.
          2. 0
            16 February 2017 10: 39
            How to say. As far as I can tell, Kutuzov wanted to avoid the continuation of the battle and he succeeded. Even if Napoleon had chased immediately, Anyway, Kutuzov would have managed to reach the fortified camp, replenish supplies of everything necessary and give the troops rest, so that he achieved his goal
            1. +2
              16 February 2017 12: 30
              Kutuzov moved closer to Kaluga where there were army supplies and depots and where it was convenient for reinforcements to approach. In addition, he covered the southern provinces. And if N had chased immediately, he could certainly defeat Kutuzov, but the losses incurred at Borodino, especially in the cavalry and wasted reserves, were catastrophic and N. could not be completely sure of the result. And most importantly, he thought that taking Moscow and opening the way to the capital, which Kutuzov did not begin to cover, but would force Alexander to peace
  11. +1
    16 February 2017 08: 27
    Speaking of the layer. In our time, workers and peasants no longer constitute the vast majority.
    1. +6
      16 February 2017 13: 18
      But as before, society rests on those who really work.
      And if everyone in the world of creacles suddenly dies, the air will only become cleaner.
      1. +9
        16 February 2017 13: 48
        truly !!! somehow everyone forgets that without people of labor, the rest of the bunch will simply starve to death
      2. +1
        16 February 2017 15: 37
        Think of the past century. Are they from the machine or from the plow? Without teachers, doctors, engineers, scientists, scientists, how long will they last?
        1. +5
          16 February 2017 17: 40
          I myself am an engineer - the adjuster of physical labor does not shy away from anything, but I consider many farmers (former state farmers) friends
        2. +2
          16 February 2017 18: 02
          Quote: Kenneth
          Without teachers, doctors, engineers, scientists, scientists, how long will they last?

          Here is an interesting twist of thought lol You really can not read and understand Russian, or are you fooling around? laughing

          I give you a second attempt:
          Quote: murriou
          society rests on those who really work.

          I repeat the third time in advance:
          Quote: murriou
          really works


          Teachers, doctors, engineers, scientists - according to cr. least real, busy with the real and necessary thing, just like the workers and peasants.

          And creacles are hollow breeds, requiring a beautiful life for their ability to deal with empty bullshit. At the same time, they are not capable of any real activity, like the same nonsense of Ponosenkov.

          Feel the difference.
          1. +3
            16 February 2017 19: 45
            try according to syllables - it may come
          2. +1
            16 February 2017 19: 46
            That is, you have narrowed the term intelligentsia to creacles. By the way, and without creakles you will not be bored?
            1. +3
              16 February 2017 22: 12
              Quote: Kenneth
              That is, you have narrowed the term intelligentsia to creacles.

              That is, you are engaged in brazen juggling.

              From the very beginning I talked about real work, without sharing the methods of this work, and not finding a fundamental difference between a worker or a farmer and an engineer or a doctor.

              Kreakly useless to society, even harmful. Their complete disappearance will be useful to mankind, as the etching of any other parasites - worms, lice and the like.

              Quote: Kenneth
              without kreaklov you will not be bored?

              Not. Small children are just as funny and helpless (but they have, I dare hope, temporary), while much nicer and much less laid back content. laughing
  12. +8
    16 February 2017 08: 59
    The question is more complicated than it might seem.
    I read a specially criticized article. Nonsense, of course. And the identity of the author is clearly not credible. On the one hand, if we take history, I studied for five years at the history department of Moscow State University. But the diploma is not defended. The explanation for this is given completely non-serious - "sang a concert." In general - a child of time. Now is the time - a man declared himself a historian - and that’s it. Kindly heed. Such impostors are now full in different areas. The more talented ones, like Ponasenkov, strive in several areas at once, some of which are enough for one with difficulty.
    But this Ponasenkov shakes the story, i.e. sort of like an ideological foundation.
    Therefore, the answer should be tough, clear, not in doubt among the masses of readers - the professional answer of an authoritative professional historian with argumentation and evidence base.
    I do not want to offend the author of today's article, but she’s not at all drawn to such an answer. More likely, on the contrary, it makes advertising. For example, until now I did not know about the existence of Ponasenkov, and I met him for the first time with “creativity”.
    That is, the author correctly says: “The trouble is, of course, since the shoemaker starts to bake us the cakes, and the pie begins to stitch the boots. But the trouble is no less if the actor-poet-writer-writer-director-producer-ak
    the ademic and public figure also begins to imagine himself a historian. The military. "
    Fine. Said great. But such a phrase implies that on the other side of the barrier is the very MILITARY HISTORY. This is not the case with today's article.
    1. +10
      16 February 2017 09: 11
      In general, a journalist is a journalist, that he has the right to raise ANY topic without being a military historian. And the blogger has, and in general - any not indifferent citizen. And then - so will all liberal historians kick our history with impunity, and in the case of an answer - poke "But who are you?"
  13. +1
    16 February 2017 09: 00
    And yet Panasenkov did not seem to use the last “trump card” against Kutuzov. That on his orders the rabbis were arrested, even someone was pulled up. For the affairs of the "spiritual."

    Thanks for the article, Roman. By the way, the unprintable story with Patsula was, in principle, completed more or less safely.
    1. 0
      16 February 2017 09: 10
      Share link.
  14. +7
    16 February 2017 09: 07
    And the battle plan was developed by the Austrians, who were defeated both by Napoleon and Suvorov.

    Suvorov did not fight with the Austrians. hi
    Brigade of the same General Augereau

    Augereau was a marshal. hi
    The promise of the article is a good, well-deserved plus. It seems to me that the main merit of the wise Kutuzov is that he retained the army, did not risk it. In the event of a defeat in a decisive battle (and this could be with a strong and skillful enemy, led by a talented commander), it would take years to recruit, train, equip the new army. For example, Napoleon lost his army in Russia, but already in the summer of next year he put up a huge army near Leipzig - the population density in Europe is higher, distances are shorter, the whole industry works for him. That is, Kutuzov’s merit - in preserving the lives of our soldiers, in that he made the Great Army itself collapse under its own weight - and then it remains only to push. Let all the "iksperdy-waving saber-pseudo-historians" remember this. Yours faithfully, hi have a nice day, everyone!
    1. +6
      16 February 2017 11: 35
      The company of the 12th year is generally a good example of what an army is with disrupted communication lines.
      1. +2
        16 February 2017 12: 19
        Dear Roman.
        I wanted to ask what kind of communications do you mean in the context of the French army, which has somewhat left the Prussian system of store supply, but I will refrain.
        I recommend that you read the article by Denis Davydov, "Did frost destroy the French army."
        1. +5
          16 February 2017 12: 35
          and what contradicts my words there? the partisans violated the army’s supply, and they didn’t give food from the places either (just in case, by communications I understand the ways of supplying the army)
          1. +1
            16 February 2017 12: 49
            Did not read ... sorry. N., unlike the Friedrich method of supplying shops, which was adhered to in most armies, tried to supply with the purchase and requisition of food. Therefore, he was freer in actions and not so afraid of supply lines and shops. And before Moscow and in Moscow, he had supplies. But what happened then was written by Davydov.
            1. +4
              16 February 2017 13: 04
              I read, I read, a long time ago, true, but I remember that transports with weapons and charges were also Davydov’s goal, and you couldn’t buy and requisition this from the population, and food (French) cost them a lot.
    2. 0
      22 February 2017 22: 10
      Near Leipzig there was already not that army, not those soldiers, not those officers ... clothes that ... quantity that ... and quality not that!
  15. 0
    16 February 2017 10: 09
    We have (but everywhere) a lot of lies, but why do you pay attention to this and even write a statue? Leave them in the shade of empty rot themselves False academy pancake.
    1. +6
      16 February 2017 12: 05
      so the whole problem is that - they don’t want in the shade, they are drawn to the light, bastards
  16. +3
    16 February 2017 10: 16
    Now Kutuzov has become bad too. Hey, guarantor, when will you finally take the enemies of the people for Khimki? Well, how much can you scoff at the country? Or is everything in the Kremlin up to the lamp?
    1. +1
      16 February 2017 10: 25
      In science and history, including there are different opinions. You do not like or criticize Ponasenkov’s approach with arguments. At least read his monograph which is interesting although very controversial.
      1. +5
        16 February 2017 13: 39
        Quote: Kenneth
        In science and history, including there are different opinions.

        The idea of ​​the intrinsic value of any “opinion” is a favorite excuse for illiterate scribblers and conscious liars.
        In fact, an opinion must be justified, and its value is strictly equal to its validity.

        In this case, it is not difficult to notice that the grounds for the “opinion” of PonOsenkov are lies and speculation, as well as the “unnoticed” facts that are generally known, but contradictory to his “opinion”.

        By the way, is it nothing that the "historian" Ponosenkov after 5 years of supposedly studying did not receive a diploma? lol
        1. +9
          16 February 2017 13: 50
          what for? they feed him so well!
        2. +1
          16 February 2017 15: 26
          Personally, you are ready to say that you are an expert in my topic.
          1. +1
            16 February 2017 18: 05
            And you? What did you have time to express in the subject besides unsubstantiated nonsense? lol
            1. +1
              16 February 2017 19: 44
              Never nonsense and never unfounded. Any my thesis that raised your doubts is ready to confirm with links.
              1. +1
                16 February 2017 22: 13
                Quote: Kenneth
                Any my thesis that raised your doubts is ready to confirm with links.

                Everyone is doubtful. We are waiting for links and justifications. laughing
                1. 0
                  21 February 2017 14: 43
                  Week is gone. Did not wait. Well, who would be surprised laughing
  17. 0
    16 February 2017 10: 23
    Yes, such historians do not know what they can agree on. I read about the fire in Moscow in 1812, followed the link, so there they say in all seriousness that it happened from a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION wassat wassat
    https://www.google.ru/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&a
    mp; esrc = s & source = web & cd = 1 & ved = 0ahUKEw
    jqtuePiZTSAhUDiCwKHar4AigQFggaMAA & url = http% 3A
    %2F%2Fearth-chronicles.ru%2Fnews%2F2016-04-07-909
    02 & usg = AFQjCNGS_B6TqvHMcmbtaP1-JGTfOqdTtA &
    ; bvm = bv.147134024, d.bGg
    1. 0
      16 February 2017 12: 42
      Hell hell: alternatively gifted in the comments look for answers in the Subtle Worlds, quote the Roerichs and consider the number of Napoleons in the 19th century (the number of Karlov, Louis, Alexandrov and other names could be counted with the same success).
      Here is the normal link: http://earth-chronicles.ru/news/2016-04-07-90902
  18. +3
    16 February 2017 12: 40
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Spartanez300
    Kutuzov is the hero of Russia at all times , and.


    And it is impossible to challenge anyone.
    And who are the ponasenko?
    It’s not worth paying attention ......

    ... just then you have to pay and expose in every way. Such authors are the "fifth column". They do not go on discussions with other scientists, broadcast and print in "Lisoblyudsky", "liberoid" publications and "baby monitors." One must think that the list of passengers on the last car of the last train Moscow (St. Petersburg) - Riga already exists ...
  19. +4
    16 February 2017 13: 03
    Panasenkov is a rear-wheel drive pseudo-historian without education, you can’t listen to him at all.
  20. +1
    16 February 2017 13: 18
    Quote: novel xnumx
    I read, I read, a long time ago, true, but I remember that transports with weapons and charges were also Davydov’s goal, and you couldn’t buy and requisition this from the population, and food (French) cost them a lot.
    But it is the lack of food that corrupts the army. And the cavalry was knocked out at Borodino. Kutuzov is a sly fox. Immensely inferior to Napoleon as a tactician, he made him as a strategist and logistician. Although he also lost a lot during the investigation.
    1. +5
      16 February 2017 13: 52
      what is he as a tactician inferior to?
      1. +2
        16 February 2017 15: 06
        my friends, I wouldn’t wave a saber about tactics either. As for the strategist - yes, it is undeniable. Tactician .. I will say this: all the battles on the territory of Russia ended in at least a draw. At least Napoleon with his experienced marshals never reached his goal - to defeat the Russian army. He could "lead by points", if for the countdown we take whoever left the battlefield - take Smolensk, for example. But .. if the army is not destroyed, and the enemy does not ask for peace - there is no victory in the battle (although, again, we can say that this is not tactics, but strategy).
        There is a version in Wiki, I already said that in the battle of Borodino Kutuzov detached a part of the army to inflict some kind of tricky blow, but Bennigsen, not knowing about it, put these troops in a different position. The raid of the cavalry of Uvarov and Platov delayed the time of the main attack of the French, allowed to regroup the troops, but did not achieve the goal set by Kutuzov (and Kutuzov blamed these two generals on this) - and Uvarov and Platov were the only generals who did not receive awards for Borodino. That is, here we can say that, most likely, the generals with a rank lower than Kutuzov also had less experience than the Napoleonic marshals.
        I would not compare Kutuzov and Napoleon as tactics. This is empty. drinks
        1. +3
          16 February 2017 15: 13
          and the consequences are that Borodino, that the battle of Maloyaroslavets, is not even a draw
          1. +1
            16 February 2017 15: 16
            Borodino was probably still tactically a draw, strategically a victory. After this battle, the Great Army did not recover.
            1. +2
              16 February 2017 17: 55
              Borodino solved the main problem. The Russians did not lose. And they knocked out the cavalry of opponents. Although there were more stocks in management. And by the way, the wounded were lost. In Mozhaisk and Moscow
        2. +1
          16 February 2017 15: 24
          All the same, until the evening Poniatowski was breaking on a Utite hill. Tuchkov’s corps didn’t even play a big role in ambush
          1. +1
            16 February 2017 15: 38
            Ponyatovsky, I think, also did not have much experience. He was, rather, a political figure - necessary, like a banner that the Poles would follow.
      2. +1
        16 February 2017 15: 21
        Let's say Austerlitz where Napoleon simply unwound the advancing allies with brilliant maneuvering. And the experience of general battles was clearly higher for N. Therefore, Kutuzov built Borodino in such a way that Napoleon was forced to break through through the left flank without being able to maneuver. And while he suffered less losses and the fate of the Russian hung in the balance.
        1. +2
          16 February 2017 15: 37
          And while he suffered less loss

          if you take French reports as a basis. It is very dangerous! Each side is trying to minimize its losses. Why are the articles on the Wiki about battles infuriated by the fact that all the losses are indicated from foreign sources - where we fought with “meat”.
          The maneuver at Austerlitz was simple, simply inflicted at the arch-necessary moment. There really is a "brilliant" Weyrother to help. There is a version where he generally worked for Napoleon. More Alexander I did not seek the glory of a commander.
          1. +1
            16 February 2017 16: 30
            Our losses according to our reports are French in French. Ours are higher because of the senseless standing of reserves under French guns. Napoleon did not allow such stocks
            1. +2
              16 February 2017 16: 47
              Under Wagram, he placed the Saxon corps of Bernadotte under the fire of Austrian artillery - a third of the corps retired. The fact is that Napoleon really ordered him to carry out a series of attacks against a strong artillery position. Yes, not “standing,” but the better? Which was the last nail in the coffin of their relationship. We should be grateful to Bernadotte - he died in a much better position than all the other marshals of Napoleon - the king of Sweden and, in some way, our ally. All the time that his dynasty was there, there were no more wars between Russia and Sweden.
              "Standing - not standing," but was the way out better? There were no trucks and armored personnel carriers, it was impossible to tighten reserves quickly to the desired point. It remained .. to stand! soldier
              1. +2
                16 February 2017 17: 08
                Attack is one thing. Another thing is to stand under fire and die up to a third of the composition. Reserves. Not yet in battle
                1. +2
                  16 February 2017 17: 10
                  By the way, the episode with Bolkonsky is quite real.
                  1. +2
                    16 February 2017 17: 17
                    By the way, the episode with Bolkonsky is quite real.

                    your absolute truth, the first associations hi
                2. +2
                  16 February 2017 17: 11
                  understand. It seems a necessary measure, but not regrettable.
            2. 0
              22 February 2017 22: 03
              And did you understand in detail why there was such standing under artillery fire ??? Read more closely where they should have been at the disposition he had outlined by Kutuzov, over the hill, and they bulged out under artillery fire and who is to blame for this, there is a concrete historical person guilty of this! Learn the history of the Fatherland!
        2. 0
          22 February 2017 22: 07
          Really in the balance? If the entry to the rear of the Platov cavalry did not end with a banal robbery of a convoy .... Napoleon’s army would have already fallen to Borodino. By the way, Platov is the only officer not awarded Kutuzov for the battle.
  21. +2
    16 February 2017 13: 27
    B. Yulin had an interesting book about Borodino. I won’t retell the book itself, anyone interested - find, read.

    But one of her main messages is to show the battle of two talented military leaders as a complex chess game of two grandmasters, which the illiterate idiots try to judge from the side: "go horse, horse! There you could eat a pawn that you didn’t take it, burdock!" etc. - and in history these are numerous "mistakes" of both Napoleon and Kutuzov, who, according to such cadets of the Biglers, competed in stupidity and stupidity.

    But for some reason Napoleon and Kutuzov are considered great commanders, and no one appreciates such clever bigler cadets laughing laughing laughing
    Yulin shows WHY both Kutuzov and Napoleon did what they did, and WHY they did just that.

    As for PonOsenkov, he is another such cadet-bigler, and he works on order, and his place, along with his writings, is in the toilet.
    1. +2
      16 February 2017 13: 53
      thanks for the tip, Napoleonic wars - favorite topic hi
  22. +1
    16 February 2017 14: 19
    Damn, what the hell was it to publish so many letters because of the outhouse actor Porosenkov? am
    1. 0
      16 February 2017 15: 36
      Quote: Operator
      Damn, what the hell was it to publish so many letters because of the outhouse actor Porosenkov?

      The country must know its "Heroes" am
      1. 0
        16 February 2017 16: 29
        Porosenkov is clearly stuffed with scandalous advertising, and VO is doing this.

        The paragraph is the maximum that Porosenkov’s compilations are dragging on.
  23. +1
    16 February 2017 14: 51
    I read this poem and enjoy. Beautiful language, vivid images, wonderful comparisons ... the author is alive, bright, cheerful and angry. Oh yes...
    This is a "scientific" article! Well, even if it’s scientifically popular. But the Christmas trees are green ... All these torrents have no relation to science. Well, let’s say I personally don’t like gravity. Since childhood, I hate her scoundrel! From the moment when his little nose on the floor broke. Do you think that my attitude to my unloved gravity will be reflected in an article about it?
    Funny, huh? My personal attitude does not color scientific or even semi-scientific work, it is simply impossible. And what about these passions? The fact that some have one RELATIONSHIP, while others have another. And the author praises some and condemns others from his own feelings. Guys ... These are songs. Poems. Fairy tales. Journalism. It is anything, but it is not a science!
    1. +1
      16 February 2017 15: 03
      The author of the comment managed not to notice that in addition to relations, the article also discusses some facts that are generally known from school, but are strictly classified for the ponosenkov pseudo-historian?
      1. +1
        16 February 2017 18: 42
        Yes, among the fountain of emotions, on the basis of which all conclusions are made, the facts are "discussed". Some. And what is the difference between a historian and a pseudo-historian? And one and the other unambiguously draw conclusions based on emotional performances. The difference is probably which version you like. Well, also a criterion ...
  24. +3
    16 February 2017 15: 30
    In Western historical science there is such a popular method of historical research within the framework of the "microhistory", based on a limited circle of artifacts and documents. We are not very common. But here are some figures, like Ponasenkov, developed on the basis of this approach vigorous activity, which essentially boils down to the following:
    - a more or less reliable fact or group of facts is pulled out.
    - events from this chronological layer are attracted and pulled out facts are built in.
    - conclusions and conclusions are drawn from the resulting construct.
    It is impossible to call it scientific work, since all these manipulations, with the methodology of historical research, have nothing in common. Provocative articles, nothing more.
  25. +6
    16 February 2017 15: 35
    Well, I'd add on my own that the favorite tribunes of Ponasenkov are “MK” and Radio Liberty.
    And I met this character (Ponasenkov) by reading his interview in AiF. 2012, the bicentennial of the Battle of Borodino, and these (obscene) unfortunate AIF journalists did not come up with anything better than asking about the Patriotic War of 1812 in general and the Battle of Borodino in particular, this (unprintable) "historian" Ponasenkov! am I still remember the sense of disgust and disgust from reading this “interview”! About everything that the respected author of the article here described was in that “interview.” And of course, the impression of that opus was the most obscene and unprintable! am angry
    1. +1
      16 February 2017 16: 29
      met by reading his interview at AiF. 2012 year, the bicentennial of the Battle of Borodino,

      Thank you, reminded. And I just could not remember where I read the libel about Kutuzov. Exactly, the newspaper AiF. I don’t read it for a long time. Since the editor-in-chief was awarded the Order of Merit for the Fatherland, this newspaper began to resemble the Pravda of the late Soviet times.
    2. +1
      16 February 2017 16: 30
      met by reading his interview at AiF. 2012 year, the bicentennial of the Battle of Borodino,

      Thank you, reminded. And I just could not remember where I read the libel about Kutuzov. Exactly, the newspaper AiF. I don’t read it for a long time. Since the editor-in-chief was awarded the Order of Merit for the Fatherland, this newspaper began to resemble the Pravda of the late Soviet times.
    3. 0
      18 February 2017 07: 33
      AiF itself consists of similar henna.
      Check out articles about our writers.
  26. +3
    16 February 2017 19: 59
    Yes, these "historians" will begin to discredit the genius of M. A. Miloradovich. He concluded a day-long cease-fire with the French at the request of Kutuzov. The Russian army broke away from the old guard of the French and cavalry for 20 versts and was saved .. Do these "historians" know about this? I have the honor.
  27. 0
    16 February 2017 20: 46
    Quote: midshipman
    Yes, these "historians" will begin to discredit the genius of M. A. Miloradovich. He concluded a day-long cease-fire with the French at the request of Kutuzov.

    AND? What's the catch? By the way, if I’m not mistaken, then not for a day and not officially, but before the end of the day.
    Somehow the question of the beginning of the war is not really raised. Even before Kutuzov. But there almost happened a catastrophe in the Drissky camp, the main stronghold according to the plan of Ful. Moreover, Alexander himself arrived at the headquarters and set out to personally “manage” everything. Napoleon in his memoirs then sincerely was surprised at such a turn of events. There is no doubt luck that it was succeeded by hook or by crook to pull him back. Another good fortune was that Barclay de Tolly was at the head of the 1st army. Minister of War. And he began to act on the plan of retreat already developed by him. And, by the way, he carried out reforms and some preparations in the army before the war.
  28. +1
    16 February 2017 21: 45
    It seems that parents are trying to make a normal child. And it grows as normal and beloved. But it grows, the devil begins to sway, like a vine in the wind and whistle under each breeze of the wind. If you deal with these writers, then recalls the story of Mark Twain "Captain Stromfield's Journey to Paradise." There no one wanted to know who Alexander the Great was, there the crowd went for one shoemaker, who in paradise was considered the highest strategist, he simply did not have the opportunity to show himself. He was always followed by a huge retinue, and at the very end, Alexander the Great. And everyone admired this shoemaker, saying that if he had the opportunity, he would conquer the whole world. This shoemaker is reminiscent of Kutuzov’s detractor. Now, if he commanded the Russian army, then Napoleon would have remained a cake forever, and the Pantheon would have brought the alcoholic body of Ponasenkov.
    1. +1
      16 February 2017 22: 15
      Much closer to Pon Osenkov's immortal image of Cadet Bigler laughing
  29. +3
    16 February 2017 22: 43
    I want to remind you that after the death of M.I. Kutuzov in the 1813 year and M. B. Barclay de Tolly in the 1818 year, Emperor Alexander I ordered to perpetuate them with the installation of monuments in front of the Kazan Cathedral in St. Petersburg, for which he published a royal reprint from 23 September 1818
  30. 0
    17 February 2017 01: 40
    Thank you for not leaving my letter unattended!
  31. +3
    17 February 2017 06: 22
    I read somewhere that Kutuzov told the Emperor Alexander (not literally, but within the meaning):
    “Why is Your Majesty so worried about the interests of England?” For me, if tomorrow they say that this island has gone under water, then I won’t even bother.

    This explains why the liberties do not like Kutuzov.
    1. +4
      18 February 2017 07: 33
      Yes, there was such a statement by Kutuzov. He considered the British enemies of Russia. I have the honor.
  32. +1
    17 February 2017 07: 33
    Question: Why all the time repeat their fabrications for traitors? Let's go to taverns, collect ravings of tipsy citizens, and then publish, discuss, replicate, and without comment is desirable. Like, let the people draw their own conclusions. The people will do. All this can end either with the pogroms of these "directors" and "poets-poets", or with the 1937 year when the neighbor wrote denunciations to the neighbor, etc.
    These bastards want one thing - to destabilize public consciousness. For this, discussions are being imposed on the most seemingly understandable to all issues. What did Kutuzov do to them, why did they now make Kutuzov, the hero, prince, savior of Russia, the object of their ridicule? Very simple. That "club of the people's war", about which Leo Tolstoy wrote in his novel "War and Peace," was largely raised with the assistance of M. I. Kutuzova. The myth that the people and the state in Russia are two different things was dispelled; it turned out to be one. One is not without the second and vice versa. What these people need today is to destroy the state, and, therefore, to destroy the people. As a rule, all of them are not Russian, they have two or three passports, two or three “homelands”. We have one Motherland! And we have nowhere to run, unlike these. We must not allow the deception and betrayal of the 1991 year to happen again in our country. And I would expel these from the country under various pretexts. He would have locked them in their beloved Europe and the USA with their masters, who would quickly put them on the chain.
    1. 0
      17 February 2017 08: 30
      Quote: 1536
      I would expel these from the country under various pretexts.

      There is another option.
      275 Article. Treason
      ... or providing financial, logistical, consulting or other assistance to a foreign state, international or foreign organization or their representatives in activities against the security of the Russian Federation-

      the applicable sentence is deprivation of liberty for a term of from twelve to twenty years, with a fine in the amount of up to five hundred thousand rubles or in the amount of the wage or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to three years or without it, and with restriction of liberty for a term of up to two years.

      Unfortunately, in the post-Soviet time state. treason is committed by the highest officials of our state, almost openly and with impunity, and even more so by any husk like the diarrhea.
      It should be stopped.
  33. +3
    17 February 2017 19: 42
    Some kind of devilry Bulgakov in the midst of our intellectual stratum is observed. Musicians, artists, some obscure personalities do not understand what they are doing bark at Russia, at our people, at the state. At the same time they grind before the West and America and value the “high art” there as the quintessence of everything. Then they repent, rush about, leave, come, admire bearded women and pederasts, rotten generals, pulled on skirts and other dregs.
    For these "intellectuals", it is quite possible the destruction of the family, the exclusion of children from their parents, the sale and betrayal of traditional, national, religious values ​​- to the glory of what? Yes, for the money.
    No, maybe there are those who truly believe in the liberal-tolerant future of Russia. I admit the presence of such people. Especially among exalted ladies of middle age. But for the most part, these liberal intellectuals are just at the peak of their creative powers, in their heyday. And not at all in poverty. They live in the capital, as a rule, eat deliciously, drink sweetly, swirl among their own kind and pour out decalitres and kilotons of bile, anger, lies and nonsense.
    And in the midst of the same pseudo-intelligentsia, just a glimpse of someone honest, positive, not even a patriot, but simply an honest citizen, as the gallop howl and putrid stool of unscrupulous souls rise immediately. immediately hang labels, defame, doused with their bowel movements. And drown.
    Not surprised. For nothing else is to be expected from this pseudo-intelligentsia. A sweet piece beckons and rot inside allows it. The other is amazing. Why do we still have a certain, very strange and inexplicable, reverence before these "Titans of thought." Why does society, the state, you and I completely admit the existence of all this scale? Why are they ready to accept their existence for the sake of some advantages there before the Western emissaries or by someone else there? Why do we write here, on the Internet, but we don’t throw them with rotten eggs, we don’t defame, we’re not beating in the face?
    Uncultured? Freedom of speech? Is such freedom of speech necessary that denies the authority of tradition, the authority and supreme spirituality of faith, the value and necessity of the family? The freedom to lie, denigrate, pour mud and lie, lie, lie, lie ... What kind of cultural need to endure sucked beer, poisoning the very spirit of our people, diluting the bonds of state and social system?
    Why is it that all these Navalny, Akhedzhakov, Kasyanov, and some other rotten personalities are there? Why do we need them? Why are they allowed to be vowels and publicly? Who puts them in the media? What for? For the scandalous rating of the media themselves? Then down with such media.
    It's time to take and clean up all this Caudle. To clean them everywhere, wherever such rot is revealed - in society, in power, in science, in the church, everywhere. And clean immediately, until another generation of our children is poisoned by their putrid poisonous feces.
    1. 0
      18 February 2017 11: 32
      In the West there is no such thing as an intelligentsia. There are Intellectuals. Although both concepts involve mental work.
      The intelligentsia is the essence of the creation of a domestic spiritual-spiritual being, in the class version, positioned as a "layer". In Tsarist Russia, only the tsar’s tsar, aristocracy and priests could work on an intellectual field. On this occasion, Uvarov even "cast in granite" a spiritual bond - autocracy, Orthodoxy, and nationality. However, closer to the second half of the 19th century, more and more nobles went bankrupt, more and more burghers managed to get an education. This is where the intelligentsia came from, who has education, but does not have a “position,” but nevertheless continues to think by inertia in the categories of the aristocracy on the one hand, and the average man on the other. Here comes the famous gradation:
      - refined intelligentsia, which has not lost its aristocratic position
      - rotten intelligentsia, respectively, has lost it
      - lousy intelligentsia, rising from the bottom of the masses.
      The fusion of the last two categories, which considered themselves deprived, gave rise to populism and revolutionary and messianic ideas, generously fertilized by the works of the German school of philosophy.
    2. 0
      18 February 2017 16: 36
      You have written everything very correctly, asking the right questions! good Only the strangest thing is that ordinary people ask these questions, but those in power ... request While we are raising these questions at the everyday level, but they should be on the state-who are we? Where are we going, what are we building? Hence, there is such confusion and reeling in our heads and souls. But the question is, where are we going and what are we building, without an ideological basis it is impossible to answer, but we have a ban on ideology in the Constitution. Freedom of speech, glasnost, and other crap that benefits Ponasenkov and the like! We are building a "socially oriented" state, but in fact we have a Golden Taurus state and kleptocracy. Well and further, according to the list ... request Is it possible to publicly declare that ideology is a robbery of the country in the interests of a narrow group? Or that "we will fatten, but you stay there!" We have no ideology, no answer to many questions at the state level, because it is easier people crap every crap! And more:
      Quote: Seryj2
      Some kind of devilry Bulgakov in the midst of our intellectual stratum is observed.

      I want to stand up for the “devils” of the Bulgakov’s, in the midst of this layer, it’s just evil, not damn. Bulgakov’s just all evil from people. It’s not for nothing that he took Goethe from the Faust as an epigraph, “I’m part of that power that always wants evil, and always does good! " Many of this party made for the good of the country, people? request
  34. 0
    17 February 2017 22: 48
    Thank you for the comprehensive assessment of this "director-historian"! Interesting another, how old
    truly professional people in the country will tolerate this "scum" !? In all of these
    These “multi-station” “show geniuses” do not allow their mouths to be opened by leading or just literate people! Wherever you look, only "academics and directors of the institutes of world problems" - but the trouble is, there are simply no construction workers in their own state!
  35. 0
    18 February 2017 07: 22
    It is necessary to write about such things. To lie to Russian history is a purposeful program.
    Well-paid. The unpleasant fact is that the ponasenkovs are not punishable and do not receive a worthy rebuke from professionals.
    If you carefully read the comments on this article. then you can see how many micro-hereditary people here and people do not understand that such attacks should not be missed because their children and grandchildren will no longer find the truth in this mountain of garbage.
    Article plus.
    1. 0
      10 October 2019 16: 26
      It surprises me: why doesn’t the State protect our children from Ponosenkov’s delirium? In the end, we pay taxes for the FSB to work! Thank God that decent, unsold people sit at the history department and they didn’t give this Beast a diploma of historian and youth with brains at least for that the sign will understand that it’s some kind of ... It turns out that Oleg Sokolov just got into a fight with him! He won the court against the slanderer! He competes competently on YouTube for both Alexander and Kutuzov. Posenenko wrote them both as perverts! ! Well should the state e about how to stop it?
  36. 0
    18 February 2017 10: 57
    Quote: Turkir
    Well-paid. Unpleasant is the fact that the ponasenkovs are not punishable and do not receive a worthy rebuke from professionals

    Oh well ... No one recognizes this ponasenkova in the scientific community. At least, reviews and references to his "work", I have not seen anywhere. Just this Ponasenkov apparently haunted by the Radzinsky Lavra. Although Radzinsky is not so much a historian, he is rather a popularizer, an artist who has found himself in the genre of a solo performance on historical topics.
    1. 0
      10 October 2019 16: 19
      In my opinion, he is crazy, whom the Americans have looked after and raised from a young age to slander the History of Russia and our Heroes, rulers, people! He and Kutuzov and Alexander the First, he made both perverts and nonentities in his "works"! reads by young people, adolescents! This is a tremendous harm! Why don't our special services shut up this bastard? I'm just outraged. In the end, we pay taxes for this! I don't want my children to read such nasty things about worthy people and Kutuzov and Alexander First, I don't want this entertainer to appear on TV and broadcast his Russophobia !!!
  37. 0
    19 February 2017 14: 57
    Kutuzov was undoubtedly granted by the God of Russia, as always at a critical moment for the sake of its salvation. There is no point in comparing Kutuzov and Napoleon - the figures are not equivalent and of different scales. But Kutuzov, in my humble opinion in the battle of Borodino, fulfilled his task. It was no longer possible to delay the general battle and the best forces of the French, especially the cavalry - they were ground in redoubts, flushes and battery assaults. At what cost? It is important to understand here that the color of the Russian infantry is Suvorov’s legacy for Kutuzov. Its main advantage is stamina and moral-volitional. Without detracting from the merits of the French linear infantry and the guard - with our infantry, Kutuzov most likely had a question - not to lose it. It was necessary to give commands to withdraw the regiments, so as not to lose them at all, many infantrymen stood to death, despite the losses. There are known cases of losses of two-thirds of the composition and immediately on the bayonets of repulsion by the same forces of the redoubts that had just been squeezed out of the regiments. And if Suvorov was alive?
    It seems that the nature of the campaign would be different, more maneuverable, and Suvorov would most likely give a general battle earlier. With a bayonet attack, turn the system over, send cavalry into the breakthrough - pull it over the first line and again bayonet into the second line - into the breakthrough then reserves, then the cavalry ... but all this is from the category - oh if Suvorov were alive. By the way, even after the Italian campaign 13 years earlier, Suvorov would have strangled Napoleon in France with bayonets, but politics ... politics .. and allies ... It is important to note that the authority of Kutuzov did not give him the freedom that Suvorov had. Both of them were limited to emperors, but Suvorov could afford much more ... This is my humble opinion. And such pseudo-historians - nothing will come of them. The feat and talent of Kutuzov is too great for such liars. History puts everything in its place.
    1. 0
      22 February 2017 21: 48
      Very capacious, Bravo !!!
    2. 0
      10 October 2019 16: 10
      I completely agree with you! The elderly Kutuzov did everything he could and could not for the Motherland! It’s a shame that some scoundrels who themselves are worthless (and Trinity with his grants from Sorez undoubtedly too) slandered such a Commander! Maybe I could have found some indifferent descendant of Kutuzov would have sentenced this rotten Ponosenkov to death, so that nobody would ever have bought these crappy books. I am a descendant in the 8th tribe of Suvorov from his great-grandson Colonel Arkady Suvorov (but an illegal branch). Ponasenkov will touch my great-grandfather .... grandfather shku I will plead with him.
  38. 0
    19 February 2017 17: 00
    Quote: Kenneth
    The textbook is primitive and unambiguous. I am interested in the story in all the variety of documents and opinions.


    and where do you get the old enlighten
  39. SMS
    0
    20 February 2017 15: 31
    What is the henchman and trinity? Wanted to make fame in the great Russian names? And Kutuzov M.I. and Barclay de Tolly M.B. and even more so Suvorov A.V. - the great Russian commanders! They made an invaluable contribution to the military history of Russia!
    By the way, for some reason, they write little how Napoleon managed in the Egyptian campaign, and could not take the fortress of Acre in two months (in Syria), and there was nothing left. And then - the Austerlitz sun !? I could not defeat the simple Bedouins!
    1. 0
      10 October 2019 16: 04
      If the descendants were not indifferent, then condemn this Ponosenkov to death!
  40. 0
    20 February 2017 20: 09
    Obvious narcissus and 3.14 daras.
    Not without some talents. something he has is methodologically interesting.
    But it is crossed out completely by pathological narcissism and the desire to defraud everything ours. to curry favor and suck another grant.
    Surprisingly, wono regularly shows himself in the “box”. Isn't it time to think about whether it is worth renewing the license for SUCH TV channels?
    To disassemble his clerk is too much honor for this ...
  41. 0
    22 February 2017 21: 44
    Whose Panasenkov PASSPORT? The case is not American !!! ???

    Well, there are simply no words about the “academy” with a capital letter!
    1. 0
      10 October 2019 16: 04
      Probably American.
  42. The comment was deleted.
  43. 0
    10 October 2019 15: 53
    It would be nice if we, or even if abroad, could find a descendant of Kutuzov who would learn about the chatter and insults of this Ponosenkov against our Great Commander! Yes, and I would condemn this grief. History !!!! !

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev Lev; Ponomarev Ilya; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; Mikhail Kasyanov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"