Military Review

Perekop and Yushun. Some features of the Crimean operation 7 - 17 November 1920.

130
The defense system of the Perekop bridgehead consisted of two fortified areas, where part of the Russian army of P. N. Wrangel took up positions.


Perekop fortified area was a fortified strip of three lines of defense. The main line of defense was the Perekop shaft, called the Turkish - this is an ancient fortification of length 9 km, was interrupted near the city of Perekop, where a stone fortification was erected.

Two other lines of defense were located north of the Turkish shaft, covered Perekop from the north, and stretched to the northeast direction, resting on Sivash Bay. The flanks of the fortifications were covered by the Gulf of Perekop and Sivash.

The second, the Yushunskiy fortified area, was a second lane of fortifications and consisted of four defensive lines, surrounded by wire barriers, interrupting the isthmuses formed by the lakes and Sivash. Along the bank of the Sivash rifle trenches, rested against the Taganash fortified hub, consisting of two defensive lines.

On the Perekop Isthmus, parts of the Russian army concentrated a large number of machine guns, light and heavy artillery, which was strengthened by the installation of new guns removed from the Sevastopol forts and ships of the Black Sea fleet.

But the Sivash in the north-western part was almost dry, and its hardened frost was a hard ground, convenient for forcing the bay not only with infantry, but also with artillery. The only obstacle to the forcing of the bay by the Soviet troops was the east wind, driving the water from the Sea of ​​Azov - and the water flooded the dry bottom.

The 1920 pulled up to the beginning of November to the isthmus of the part of the Soviet 6 army were concentrated as follows.

The 1 Rifle Division guarded the Black Sea coast from the Kinburn Spit to Alekseyevka; The 51 Rifle Division, having advanced the 153 and separate cavalry brigades to Pervokonstantinovka, was part of the 151 and Fire Brigade in front of the Turkish shaft (151-I brigade occupied the section from the Perekop gulf to the tract, and the Fire brigade was located in front of the Turkish shaft (15-I brigade occupied the section from the Perekop gulf to the tract, and the Fire brigade was located in front of the Turkish shaft) ; The 52 Rifle Division occupied the area of ​​Stroganovka - N. Nikolaevka - Sergeevka - Hromovka; The XNUMX Rifle Division was concentrated in the area Agayman - Novorepevka - Uspenskaya; The Latvian rifle division was in the army reserve.

The combat composition of the army units intended for assault on the positions of the white troops (minus the 1 th rifle division guarding the Black Sea coast) was 27,5 thousand bayonets and 2,7 thousand sabers.

The Perekop site was defended by the following troops of the Russian army: Perekop shaft — by units of the 13 Infantry Division; The Lithuanian Peninsula is part of the 1 Brigade of the 2 Kuban Division and the Combined Guards Regiment, and the 34 I Infantry Division was in reserve in the area of ​​Armyansk. Combat composition of the white group - 2,2 ths. Bayonets and 720 sabers.

From November 1 to November 7, the Reds conducted systematic preparations for the assault of fortifications; they searched for fords through the Sivash, pulled up artillery, carried out engineering work on equipping infantry positions and destroying enemy wire barriers.

The 6 th army, reinforced by the 2 th Mounted and Rebel armies, was instructed to cross the Vladimirovka-Stroganovka-Kurgan sector to strike at the rear of the Perekop positions, simultaneously storming them from the front. N.I. Makhno ordered the rebel army to be immediately transported to the Kurgan-Kat metro station and thrown into the rear of the Perekop positions in the direction of Durmen.

The 6 Army Divisions were assigned the following tasks:

51-th - attack the Turkish shaft along the path Chaplinka-Armenian Bazaar, striking the enemy, occupying the Turkish shaft, a blow to the rear - advancing at least two brigades in the direction of Vladimirovka-Karadzhanay-Armenian Bazaar.

52 is to strike in the direction of the Lithuanian Peninsula and further south.

15 - to interact with the Rebel Army and secure the Lithuanian Peninsula.

The Latvian Rifle Division and the 2 Cavalry Army are in reserve.

The start of the general offensive is 7 November.

Considering the fact that the 13-i and 34-i infantry divisions, having suffered heavy losses in previous battles, were numerically weak, the white command of 5 - 6 November began to regroup parts, according to which the 2-i army corps was replaced by parts of 1-th ( Markovskaya, Kornilovskaya and Drozdovskaya shock divisions) and was assigned to the rear for reorganization. Parts of the 1 Corps were reinforced by parts of the cadet schools and had the Equestrian Corps of IG Barbovich in the right flank as part of the 1 and 2 cavalry divisions and the Terek-Astrakhan brigade. These were tested, strong and resistant parts, welded by a long joint struggle. The combat strength of the defending units increased markedly. But the command of the Russian army with regrouping was late: only 8 on November, already in the course of the fighting, units of the 1 army corps arrived in the Perekop district and began changing units of the 2 corps, leaving units of the Markov division in the st. Dzhankoy. The Drozdov Division was supposed to change parts of the 13 Infantry Division on the Turkish shaft, and the Kornilov division would take up positions east of Armyansk. But since the Kornilov division was late, and the red divisions had already occupied the Lithuanian peninsula, knocking out units of the 1 brigade of the 2 of the Kuban division and the Combined Guards regiment, the command of the Drozdov division was forced to leave two regiments on the Turkish shaft, and the other two to throw for parry hitting the red in the area of ​​the Lithuanian Peninsula.

In 22 hours of November 5, the Rebel Army began to force the Sivash, but not even half, the Makhnovists returned, citing the fact that the wind drove a lot of water and the Sivash was allegedly impassable.

In 22 hours of November 7, the active phase of the operation began - units of the 52 and 15 divisions began to force the Sivash. Forward for cutting the wire were thrust shock groups of communists, assault teams and demolition men.

Thanks to the spotlights, the defenders discovered the Reds, opening deadly artillery and machine-gun fire at them. Having suffered heavy losses, by the 2 hours of November 8, the Soviet units approached the wire barriers located in the 100-150 steps from the Lithuanian Peninsula, and by the 7 hours, parts of the 15 and 52 divisions broke through the fortified strip and captured white positions.

At the same time, the 153 Brigade of the 51 Division passed the bay and launched an offensive in the direction of Karadzhanai.

At dawn of November 8, the right-flank units of the 51 division located in front of Perekop shaft started the destruction of the wire barriers. Demovers, suffering heavy losses, did their work.

The first attacks of the fortifications of the Turkish Hall began from 10 hours.
By the same time, units of the 15 and 52 divisions occupied the Lithuanian Peninsula. White began to retreat beyond his first fortified line.

Two brigades of the 16 division and one brigade of the 52 th led to attack the fortified positions from Sivash to the Armyansk-Kolodezi road, and the 154 brigade of the 52 division and part of the 153 brigade of the 51 division in the south-west direction on Armyansk.

In this area, the white command was put into battle, except for the brigade of the Kuban division and the Combined Guards regiment, parts of the 34 and 13 th infantry divisions that had not yet managed to withdraw to the rear.

Around 14, the 152 and Fire Brigade divisions, despite the hurricane fire of the defenders and the heavy losses, approached the shaft at a distance of 100 steps. Before the chains of the red infantry was the third line of wire obstacles and a moat, entangled in barbed wire. The demolition men moved forward again. Now White could fire at the attackers not only with machine-gun and artillery fire, but also with bombard bomb and mortar fire, and throw hand grenades at them.

By the end of the day, the Soviet units, coming up on the 50 steps to the shaft, were forced to withdraw to their original position.

By the end of the day, the whites pressed the Soviet units in the area of ​​the Lithuanian Peninsula. On the 153-th and 154-brigade were thrown strong parts, reinforced armored vehicles, but with the support of the reserves retained red.

Bypassed from the east and fearing to be finally cut off, from the evening of November 8, November 10, they began to withdraw their units from the Perekop shaft to the Yushun positions.

In 2 hours of November 9, the units of the 152 th rifle and Fire brigades again went on the assault on the Turkish rampart, in 4 hours they took possession, and by the 15 hours they reached the first line of the Yushun fortified positions. At the same time, units of the 153 Brigade occupied Karadzhanai, and the 152 Brigade occupied Armyansk.

In the afternoon of November 9, all Soviet divisions launched an offensive against the Yushun positions.

The command of the Russian army, deciding to snatch the initiative from the hands of his opponent, struck a counterstrike. On the night of 9 November, pulling IG Barbovich's equestrian corps to the Nameless Lake (up to 4,5 thousand sabers with 30 guns, 4 armored cars and 150 machine guns), it struck the left flank of 15- th division, capturing fortified positions on the southern bank of the Sivash. But with the reserve approach, the further advancement of the white cavalry was halted.

Trying to get to the rear of the 15 Division, around 15-o'clock, the equestrian group, supported by armored vehicles, was again thrown to the left flank of this compound - and it managed to break through to the Sivash section - Lake Bezymyannoe. Parts of the Soviet division began to retreat, but the machine-gun regiment of the Rebel Army, redeployed to the breakout area in time, restored the situation with dagger-gun fire. The key role played Makhnov machine gun carts.

Having mastered the whole Perekopskiy fortified area, by the evening of November 10, Soviet units were located in front of the Yushun positions.
The Latvian Rifle Division was introduced into the battle.

Dawn 10 November began with the onset of the whites - they again attacked the left flank of the Reds and again pressed it.

Parts of the 51 Division (152 and Fire Brigade), which occupied the Yushun positions by this time, were moved eastward to strike the rear of the white units. A bypass maneuver saved the left flank of the Soviet grouping - fearing to be cut off, whites stopped further advancement and began to retreat in the southern and southeast directions. On the shoulders of the enemy, the Soviet units captured the last fortifications of the whites and rushed to the Crimea in a rush.

The main reasons for the quick success of the Soviet troops during the Crimean operation were the following: a) the suddenness of an assault on defensive positions; b) successful use of bypass maneuvers; c) the lack of reliable large reserves by the white command (the offensive found the command of the Russian army at the stage of re-formation of a number of formations, which greatly facilitated the task of the coming); d) the small number of parts of the defender; e) the delayed replacement of the weak parts of the 13 and 34 infantry divisions of the Russian army with resistant shock units of the 1 army corps; f) The specificity of the Perekop isthmus — the white cavalry, initially numerically superior to the red one, could not turn around for a strike and, if it managed to make a breakthrough, then it fell into the rear of the red parts and ran across large reserves.

All these circumstances were of key importance at the final stage of the Civil War in southern Russia - during the Battle of the Crimea.


Map of Perekop positions.


naval guns at the position at Art. Taganash.
Author:
130 comments
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  1. parusnik
    parusnik 16 February 2017 06: 48
    +17
    The defense system of the Perekop bridgehead consisted of two fortified areas, where part of the Russian army of P. N. Wrangel took up positions.
    In the spring of 1920, Baron P.N. Wrangel arrived in Sevastopol on the British dreadnought "Emperor of India" to command the Russian army. This is certainly not a sealed wagon ...
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 16 February 2017 08: 06
      +5
      Quote: parusnik
      on the British dreadnought "Emperor of India" command the Russian army. This is certainly not a sealed wagon ...

      Battleship course abruptly the carriage will be! What an honor Peter Pyotr Nikolaevich!
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 16 February 2017 08: 24
      +11
      Quote: parusnik
      In the spring of 1920, Baron P.N. Wrangel arrived in Sevastopol on the British dreadnought "Emperor of India" to command the Russian army. Of course non-sealed wagon...

      The Russian Army did NOT fight with Britain in 1920.
      And here the RUSSIAN subject Ulyanov drove with the blessing of the GERMAN authorities through the territory of Germany during WARS Germany and Russia.

      Differences, of course, you do not catch.

      By the way, the same individual was ARRESTED in 1914 (already during the war) for a pistol found in Austria and ... released (future riders of the world champion Alekhine and his comrades were breaking their ribs).
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 16 February 2017 14: 33
        +7
        Olgovich

        The Russian Army did NOT fight with Britain in 1920.
        ... The Russian Army did not indisputably fight with Britain, Britain supported the Russian Army and the Polish army .. which took Kiev in May 1920, did these armies fight for a united and inseparable democratic Russia ...? You in the previous topics in your comments stated that the German agents staged the February revolution .. and why did the Germans bring Lenin by April .. Something went wrong.?
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 16 February 2017 18: 50
          +4
          Quote: parusnik
          You in the previous topics in your comments stated that the German agents staged the February revolution.


          You quote me bad
      2. MrK
        MrK 16 February 2017 14: 44
        +9
        Quote: Olgovich
        But the Russian citizen of Ulyanov drove with the blessing of the GERMAN authorities through Germany during the WAR of Germany and Russia


        To the question of the “sealed train car” on which the Bolsheviks arrived in Sweden. The fact, as they say, took place. However, it is less known that in addition to a couple dozen Bolsheviks, through Germany from Switzerland to Sweden in similarly sealed wagons 169 members of other parties reached - the Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Anarchists, Bundists, Lithuanian Social Democrats, Finnish nationalists, etc. So, by analogy with Lenin, all of them can also be called "German spies." But the current liberals-the olgovichs are modestly silent about this.
        By the way. During the Anglo-French War, the French Foreign Minister walked around London for two months, as a private person. And nothing.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 17 February 2017 02: 45
          +5
          "169 members of other parties — the Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Anarchists, Bundists — got in similar sealed wagons ////

          Everything was started exclusively for the sake of Lenin. And it was Lenin who compiled the lists of the rest (for cover), selecting the most harmless and stupid (so that there was no competition).
          And only Lenin (the Bolsheviks) was regularly transferred money to promote peace.
          And Lenin wrote detailed reports on the work done to get the next batch.
          Lenin, an intelligent adventurer, wanted power, it was easier to get on pacifism (the war bothered), and the German General Staff wanted Russia to leave the war. Coincidence of interests.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 17 February 2017 03: 58
            +5
            Quote: voyaka uh And Lenin wrote detailed reports on the work done to get the next batch.

            Where are these reports? Relevant ledgers, where are they filed, as well as debit credit? I think if they really were Goebbels cracked them from all the stands. However, no.
            At this misinformation, dear, the beard has already covered with mold, and you again pull it out into the light of day.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 18 February 2017 22: 58
              +2
              Reports and receipts of money recipients appeared in a criminal case against Ulyanov, initiated by the Provisional Government. It was not for nothing that Lenin hid with Kamenev at Razliv. Several arrested couriers pleaded guilty. After the October Revolution, the case materials were quickly destroyed by the Bolsheviks. But in Germany and Sweden some materials remained.
    3. antivirus
      antivirus 16 February 2017 09: 22
      +3
      anchors ever sealed? only themselves, after chartering, the dreadnought fought. and the Caucasus and Donbass, the British and the peaceful custodians (their capital there froze) did not care.
      1. vladimirZ
        vladimirZ 16 February 2017 10: 15
        +11
        Command Russian armydeciding to wrest the initiative from the hands of his opponent ... - from article

        Interestingly, the author writes "The Russian Army" defended, and the "Soviet" units, attacking the "Russian Army", etc. etc.
        The author is asked, but what were the "Soviet" units non-Russian?
        It may be enough to pour mud, resembling the Soviet period of Russia's life. We need established definitions in the history of the civil war, when the Russians fought with the Russians, to call by their own names: the Red and White armies.
        There is no way to rewrite history in any way. The Russian people in the vast majority fought on the side of the Red Army, and won, gaining up over the White Army landowners and rich.
        1. ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
          ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH 16 February 2017 10: 48
          +5
          Quote: vladimirZ
          The author is asked, but what were the "Soviet" units non-Russian?

          Of course, non-Russians. They were even called the WORKING-PEASAN Red Army (Nigerian workers and Mongol peasants!). For the Bolsheviks, Russia is a "prison of peoples", where the Russian landlords exploited the Tungus and other Chechens. "... have we taken with sufficient care measures to really protect the aliens from the true Russian state of the Mordovia? I think that we have not taken these measures ... "V.I. Lenin"
          1. vladimirZ
            vladimirZ 16 February 2017 11: 16
            +6
            Do not write nonsense. In Russia, the Russian people has always been the main state-forming nationality.
            Everything else is from the evil one.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 16 February 2017 11: 50
          +5
          Quote: vladimirZ
          The Russian people in the vast majority fought on the side of the Red Army, and won by gaining up over the White Army


          Absolute FALSE. 5% of the population (on both sides) took part in the massacre. But in the elections to Uchr. Assembly (50% of the country's voters) Bolsheviks with miserably lost.People chose NOT THEM.
          Further, the blasheviks did NOT make the elections and were afraid of them like fire for 70 years. physically destroying all even potential rivals.
          1. vladimirZ
            vladimirZ 16 February 2017 12: 07
            +9
            This is you, Olgovich, you are talking nonsense that is not consistent with the historical chronicle. You think up some absurdities and try to promote them on this site.
            Do you even understand the essence of Soviet power, for which the people fought and defended?
            You carry liberal nonsense, similar to the fact that "the USSR did not produce anything but unnecessary galoshes for anyone."
            The current situation in which our people have fallen in “democratic” Russia, in which they have been given the right to “elect” bourgeois power, highlights especially clearly all the advantages of the Soviet period in the life of our state.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 16 February 2017 12: 47
              +4
              Э
              Quote: vladimirZ
              This is you, Olgovich, you are talking nonsense that is not consistent with the historical chronicle. You think up some absurdities and try to promote them on this site.
              You, Dear VladimirZ, carry fictions that are not consistent with the historical TRUTH. You think up what absurdities ....

              FACTS are given to you, but you bring AGITS. You object - NOT in a position.

              It looks ridiculous, although your point of view is understandable and respected by me. It's your right.
              1. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 16 February 2017 12: 52
                +6
                darling Olgovich and where are the facts? belay
              2. vladimirZ
                vladimirZ 16 February 2017 18: 31
                +5
                You, Dear VladimirZ, carry fictions that are not consistent with the historical TRUTH. - Olgovich

                Where is your "truth"? In what historical chronicles?
                In the bourgeois liberal press, claiming the ultimate truth, or in the works of traitors and liars like Solzhenitsyn?
                Bring some kind of mossy Constituent Assembly, dissolved for no reason and attempting to actually take power from the current Soviets of workers, peasants and soldiers' deputies, in favor of all the same supporters of the bourgeois authorities who had only recently been swept out of the power offices of the Provisional Government.
                It was enough to declare the famous "Guard was tired" and there was no bourgeois "constituent party". In order to eliminate further political speculation on behalf of the Constituent Assembly, the current government on behalf of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee on January 6, 1918 adopted a decree on the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly.
                These are the facts. Everything else is your fiction and moaning about some kind of "founding member" thrown out of history.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 16 February 2017 18: 54
                  +3
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  Bring some kind of mossy Constituent Assembly, dissolved for no need and an attempt to actually take power away from the working Soviets of workers,


                  You are simply UNLIMITED: one of the first decrees of the power authorities- about ELECTIONS in CSS. , And the Council of People's CommissarsTEMPORARY government - before CSS. .

                  And only when the Bolsheviks realized that they had lost the election, jumping to the side began.
                  Learn the story, not make it up.
                  1. vladimirZ
                    vladimirZ 16 February 2017 19: 42
                    +7
                    Learn the story, not make it up. - Olgovich

                    You, "literate", then you know her story?
                    Yes, only the Bolsheviks, as they came to power in the Soviets, adopted already in November 1917, the decision to hold elections to the Constituent Assembly. Before them, no one made such a decision, the Provisional Government, as it could delay its implementation.
                    It was to the Bolsheviks that the Constituent Assembly was obliged both by the fact that the elections were held and by the fact that its delegates gathered at their only meeting.
                    And it’s not the fault of the Bolsheviks, but the fault of the majority of the delegates of the bourgeois parties of the “constituent party” that this assembly turned out to be insolvent and broke up.
                    Most CSS delegates refused to consider the declaration of the working and exploited people proposed by the All-Russian Central Executive Committee. After which the Bolshevik delegation decided to leave the CSS.
                    The Left Socialist Revolutionaries tried to continue their work in the CSS and announced their declaration, which demanded that the CSS immediately resolve issues of land and peace.
                    However, the right-wing Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks and others refused to discuss this either. The Left Socialist Revolutionaries, following the Bolsheviks, left the courtroom.
                    Thus, the CSS finally lost the quorum. About 270 delegates from 700 elected remained in the hall. The remaining delegates refused to find compromise solutions in working with delegates from the Bolshevik parties and the Left Social Revolutionaries, which actually determined the dissolution, due to the lack of a quorum that failed the Constituent Assembly.
                    I give you your words - "Learn history, not make it up."
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 17 February 2017 12: 51
                      +3
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      Yes, only the Bolsheviks, as they came to power in the Soviets, accepted in November 1917, decision on holding elections to the Constituent Assembly. Before them, no one made such a decision, The interim government, as it could delay its implementation.


                      Oh my god!
                      I respect your position, but not your LITERACY
                      1. vladimirZ
                        vladimirZ 17 February 2017 14: 35
                        0
                        "Literate", you, "literate", whoever wrote.
                        First of all, look at yourself. Do you not see logs in your eye?
                  2. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 17 February 2017 00: 45
                    +6
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Learn the story, not make it up.


                    Oh, Olgovich - Olgovich, why did you so badly teach history. You blame everyone for not knowing, but for yourself?

                    On October 25, 1917, dual power ended with the overthrow of the Kerensky Provisional Government. In Petrograd, the Soviets of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies elected the All-Russian Central Executive Committee and the Council of People's Commissars, and the triumphal march of Soviet power throughout Russia began.

                    Elections to the Constituent Assembly were called back under the Kerensky Provisional Government. The question arose of holding elections or not. The Bolsheviks already had power, and it was possible not to hold elections, but the people still had illusions about the Constituent Assembly. It was clear that the Bolsheviks would not get the majority in the elections, because at that time the people were still infected with petty-bourgeois ideology, but the Bolsheviks decided to hold the elections in order to expose the Constituent Assembly as an organ of bourgeois and not labor power.

                    Naturally, in the elections to the Constituent Assembly, the majority received the right Social Revolutionaries. When the assembly opened, the Bolsheviks invited the audience to recognize the decrees of the Soviet government on peace and land, the Declaration of the Rights of the Working and Exploited People.
                    Of course, the Constituent Assembly refused to approve them and spoke out for the war to a victorious end. Thus, they exposed themselves. The people realized that the founding of the world would not give him.

                    After that, the Bolsheviks and the Left Socialist Revolutionaries left the meeting; their numbers were such that the remaining did not have a quorum and were not authorized to make any decisions. But they didn’t decide anything.

                    After the coalition left, liberalist chatter began. The sailors who were on guard at night were tired of listening to them, and they said that everyone should go home, the guard was tired. So ended the constituent assembly.

                    All members of the Constituent Assembly left, and interestingly, many of them were subsequently shot by Kolchak and Denikin.
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 17 February 2017 02: 35
                      +3
                      Not all and not right away. Samara, Omsk, Arkhangelsk, just headed by the very same from the CSS. The results are known, executions, robberies, and other liberal values, when on paper one thing, but in reality another.
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 February 2017 07: 45
    +11
    Played a key role Makhnovsky machine gun carts.

    Oh. and well then the red allies cut them out, almost without exception. And rightly so. Here, finally, the lads were amazed!
    The battle was introduced Latvian rifle division.

    Net foreign mercenaries the bandits, in their own Latvia, having returned, removed all the posters "death to the bourgeois" and bows and became law-abiding citizens of the bourgeois state. And in the Second World War and noted in the Waffen SS.

    In the battles for the happiness of the Russian people in Crimea, another "Russian" unit participatedEstonian mercenary division.

    It is good that almost ALL the remaining red Latvians and Estonians in the country were plundered as agents, spies and saboteurs. Share. Also amazed, come on ..

    The main reason for the defeat of the Russian Army is the betrayal of its so-called "allies" in the Entente, deprived of its support and supplies, while the Bolsheviks had all the supplies of the imperial army.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 16 February 2017 08: 17
      +13
      Quote: Olgovich
      The main reason for the defeat of the Russian Army is the betrayal of its so-called "allies" in the Entente, deprived of its support and supplies,

      So in your opinion there was nothing to shoot with white? Why, then, in the losses of the Reds, reaching up to 85% in separate parts?
      Quote: Olgovich
      Net foreign mercenaries

      French, Greeks, British, Americans, Japanese, Czechoslovakians, you "bracket" the civil war?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 16 February 2017 09: 53
        +4
        .
        Quote: V.ic
        So in your opinion there was nothing to shoot with white? Why, then, in the losses of the Reds, reaching up to 85% in separate parts?


        At the end of June 1920, the British government withdrew General Percy's military mission from Crimea. Only a group of officers was left to monitor developments. The supply of military materials for loans allocated by the British Parliament was discontinued. Small purchases of military materials were carried out, which were made in Romania, Bulgaria and Georgia by representatives of the All-Union Socialist League, while British diplomatic representatives in these countries posed all sorts of obstacles to these purchases and under various pretexts refused to miss cargo.

        “Weapons are being worn out, fire stocks are running out, and technical means of fighting are becoming unusable. Without them, we are powerless. To buy all this is no means. Our economic situation is becoming increasingly difficult. In European politics, it would be in vain to seek the highest moral impulses. This policy manages exclusively profit'. - Wrangel July, 1920
        And England betrayed the Russian Army for the sake of profit.
        Quote: V.ic
        French, Greeks, British, Americans, Japanese, Czechoslovakians, you "bracket" the civil war?


        Finally, tell us about the Red-French "battles" and "fronts", about the same Red-Greek, Red-American "battles" - "fronts"! , and the Reds did NOT officially fight with Japan.

        The Czechoslovak units wanted to fight the German invaders and fought well with them, but in fact the allies who became the invaders, the Bolsheviks prevented them. Then one caught on to another and it started, both bad and terrible. There would be no Bolshevik betrayal of the armistice and Brest-would have fought together before the Victory, as in the Second World War
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 16 February 2017 10: 09
          +6
          Quote: Olgovich
          Czechoslovak units wanted to fight the German occupiers

          What did the Germans occupy in the lands of the Oster Reich in 1917-1918? Both Czech and Slovak lands have been "under German oppression" for many centuries! And they so wanted to fight that they chose not a short, but a long route, as a result of which the last legionnaires left Vladivostok already in September 1920 together with looted junk and Russian gold. World war by this time almost a year and a half as it ended.
          Quote: Olgovich
          and the Reds did NOT officially fight with Japan.

          ... right now, in whose status were the japas of the government of the Merkulov brothers?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 16 February 2017 11: 26
            +4
            Quote: V.ic
            And they wanted to fight so much that they chose not a short, but a long route,


            And what is short? The long road was AGREED with everyone, including and with the Bolsheviks. Who wanted to disarm them. And away we go ...
            1. V.ic
              V.ic 16 February 2017 12: 17
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              And what is short?

              ... poor thing ... But are you not aware of Romanov-on-Murman? Here's a quote for you: "November 30, 1916 saw the opening of through traffic on the Murmansk Railway," "regular passenger traffic began on September 15, 1917, along the entire section of the road from Zvanka to Murmansk - there was a passenger train No. 3/4." http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/1049805
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 16 February 2017 12: 52
                +4
                Quote: V.ic
                ... poor thing ...

                Do not spare yourself. Learn better: the Northern Route was rejected due to fears of German submarines.
                1. V.ic
                  V.ic 16 February 2017 14: 48
                  +4
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The northern route was rejected due to fears of German submarines.

                  Fictitious pretext. Excellent military cargoes in the same Romanov-on-Murman delivered many thousands of tons, which during the evacuation of some valiant Noglitz polar explorer successfully destroyed. Re-loading of cargo was carried out in 2 MB. One of the Russian expeditionary brigades arrived in France from Arkhangelsk. There was another calculation that the "brothers" should take part in the fight against the Russians. So do not scare the terrible German submarines !. It was in 2 MV that they had bases in the Novyezhsky fjords. In 1 MV bases of German submarines in the North DID NOT HAVE!
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 16 February 2017 18: 55
                    +3
                    Quote: V.ic
                    Fictitious pretext. Perfectly military cargo in the same Romanov-on-Murman

                    YOU are better, yes .... lol
                    FACT is given to you, not fiction (like yours)
                    1. V.ic
                      V.ic 17 February 2017 07: 33
                      +3
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      FACT lead to you, but not fictions (like yours)

                      1). Entente's delivery of military cargo to Arkhangelsk.i in Romanov-on-Murman. http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/morskie-perevozk
                      ii-ih-rol-v-snabzhenii-russkoy-armii-strategiche
                      skimi-materialami-v-gody-pervoy-mirovoy-voyny
                      2). Sending part of the Russian expeditionary force to France via Arkhangelsk.
                      http://rusidea.org/?a=25042007
                      "The 3rd Special Infantry Brigade, under the command of General V.V. Marushevsky, was sent to France via Arkhangelsk in August.
                      Then the last, 4th special infantry brigade was formed, led by Major General M.N. Leontiev sent to Macedonia. She sailed from Arkhangelsk in mid-September, arrived in Thessaloniki in October 1916. "
                      This is not the facts for you? Do you think these fictions? There was a freezing port of Arkhangelsk, but there was a non-freezing port of Murmansk. Take a short route to the North and Higher-yul!
                      Once again I am convinced that your "crunching" is not supported by either erudition or knowledge of the history of the intervention period and the civil war!
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 February 2017 13: 05
                        +4
                        Quote: V.ic
                        This is not the facts for you? Do you think these fictions? There was a freezing port of Arkhangelsk, but there was a non-freezing port of Murmansk. Take a short route to the North and Higher-yul!


                        We discussed ANOTHER-departure-non-departure of the corps through the North.

                        On February 18, Chairman of the ChNS T. Masaryk announced to the members of the presidium
                        national council that them and the french diplomatic representatives of windows
                        thoroughly resolved the issue of financing the corps and its transfer to the West
                        front. “The French,” Masaryk informed, “made a decision: to give us this money
                        and call us so that we immediately go to France. Way - through Vladivostok
                        (to Murmansk - the road is not in order, Arkhangelsk froze until May) ”20.
                        The signing of the Brest Peace Treaty by the Bolsheviks in March 1918, meaning-
                        the actual liquidation of the Eastern Front, made the process of the transfer of the Czech
                        Slovak corps to France is irreversible.
                        The Soviet government was concerned about the availability of weapons in parts
                        corps. March 26, 1918 in Penza between a representative of the Council of People's Commissars
                        Stalin and representatives of the Czechoslovak Corps signed an agreement on
                        which guaranteed the unhindered sending of Czech units from Pen
                        Threat to Vladivostok.

                        http://www.lib.csu.ru/vch/1/2005_02/011.pdf

                        What else is not clear to you?
        2. antivirus
          antivirus 16 February 2017 11: 20
          +5
          if all the peasants were literate already in 1890, there would be a different country. Without the Bolsheviks and 12 o’clock, the slave of the day and day laborers, without the “Latvian punishers” and hard labor (all the bakeries know the feeding standards under the tsar and do not know how much they didn’t report to the boilers, and Solzhenitsyn only about theft), without oppressing the Great Russians and colonial orders (as in Africa) in Central Asia (all the same they are chocks, not literate), and so on
        3. Aaleks1974
          Aaleks1974 16 February 2017 11: 58
          +8
          Quote: Olgovich

          Finally, tell us about the Red-French "battles" and "fronts", about the same Red-Greek, Red-American "battles" - "fronts"! , and the Reds did NOT officially fight with Japan.

          And in the North, near Arkhangelsk, with whom did we fight? Is it not with the Americans and the British? Quite a decent front turned out. By the way, the first concentration camp in our territory, it was the brazen people who arranged it long before the Nazis.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 16 February 2017 12: 55
            +3
            Quote: Aaleks1974
            in the North, near Arkhangelsk, with whom did we fight? Is it not with the Americans and the British?


            First of all, since White armies and white partisanssupported by allies.
            1. V.ic
              V.ic 16 February 2017 14: 51
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              First of all, with the White armies and white partisans supported by the Allies

              ... And who used chemical weapons in the North against the reds and civilians? Lieutenant Tukhachevsky?
          2. RUSS
            RUSS 16 February 2017 14: 37
            +2
            Quote: Aaleks1974
            By the way, the first concentration camp in our territory, it’s just the brazen people who arranged, long before the Nazis

            9 1918 of August Lenin in a telegram to the Penza Provincial Executive Committee and Eugenia Bosch wrote: “It is necessary to organize enhanced security from selectively reliable people, to conduct merciless mass terror against the kulaks, priests and White Guards; dubious lock up to the concentration camp outside the city"
            About a month after this telegram, on September 5, 1918 a decree of the Council of People's Commissars on red terror was signed, signed by Petrovsky, Kursky and V. Bonch-Bruevich. In addition to indications of mass executions, it noted: “To ensure the Soviet Republic from class enemies by isolating them in concentration camps "

            Your Lenin was the first to create a concentration camp!
            1. MrK
              MrK 16 February 2017 15: 10
              +6
              Quote: RUSS
              Your Lenin was the first to create a concentration camp!


              Over the entire Red Terror, a little more than 4 000 bloodsuckers and conspirators were shot in all of Russia. Lenin, recovering from an injury, demanded an end to the terror.
              And now about the camps.
              And what do we have in Arkhangelsk? Well, what about the Supreme Administration of the Northern Region, headed by the people's socialist Tchaikovsky, who immediately declared her commitment to the idea of ​​the Constituent Assembly. And if such statements were made, wait for a lot of blood ... And she, of course, spilled!
              The first camp, on Solovki, was created by the people's socialists. On February 3, 1919, the Miller-Tchaikovsky government wrote a decree: citizens, “whose presence is harmful ... may be subject to arrest and extra-judicial removal to places specified in paragraph 4 of this regulation. ... p. 4. ... The Solovetsky monastery and one of the islands of the Solovetsky group are appointed as the place of expulsion... »
              We will not use “red” materials. Let’s take an excerpt from a letter that in 1922 the “Minister of the Interior” of the Tchaikovsky Government sent to his boss in Paris: “Remember, Nikolai Vasilyevich, at least our north, Arkhangelsk, where we built power, where we ruled! Both you and I were against executions, cruelties, but weren't they? Without our knowledge, at the fronts (for example, on Pinezhsky and Pechora) the ice-holes were not filled with living people? ... Remember the prison on Mudyug Island, in the White Sea, founded by the Allies, where "prisoners of war" were held, that is all who were suspected by the allied military power of sympathy for the Bolsheviks. In this prison, the authorities - the commandant and his assistant - were officers of the French command, what happened there, it turns out? 30% of the deaths of those arrested in five months from scurvy and typhoid, kept those arrested starving, beaten, cold punishment cells in the cellar and frozen ground ...».
              A few numbers. During the year under the people's socialist Tchaikovsky, in a territory with a population of 400 thousand people, only 38 000 of those arrested passed through only one Arkhangelsk prison - 18 of them were shot, more than five thousand died from beatings and illnesses. But there were five more prisons in Murmansk, a concentration camp on Solovki and a concentration camp on the uninhabited island of Mudyug.
              From the book “Cursed” by Alexander Kurlyandchik, SOVIET AUTHORITY ... on Proza.ru
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 16 February 2017 18: 39
                +1
                Quote: mrark
                Over the entire Red Terror, a little more than 4 bloodsuckers and conspirators were shot in all of Russia.

                Despite its quite official dating: September 5, 1918 - November 6, 1918, the Red Terror has rather blurred chronological boundaries. Trotsky defined the Red Terror as "an instrument used against a class that is doomed to death, which does not want to die." Thus, the time of the beginning of the "red", revolutionary terror can be considered already 1901. From 1901 to 1911 the victims of revolutionary terror were about 17 thousands person. On February 21, 1918, the SNK issued a decree “The Socialist Fatherland is in danger!”, Which decreed that “enemy agents, speculators, thugs, hooligans, counter-revolutionary agitators, German spies are being shot at the crime scene." On August 9, 1918, Lenin wrote: “It is necessary to carry out a ruthless mass terror against the kulaks, priests and White Guards; dubious lock up in a concentration camp outside the city. Decree and implement the complete disarmament of the population, shoot on the spot mercilessly for any hidden rifle. " One must understand that such instructions were given even before the official start of the “Red Terror”, anyone could be considered a fist and a dubious element, the decision on whether a person belongs to the counter-revolutionary elements was made “on the ground”. Towards the end of the Civil War, concentration camps 50 thousands human.
                Data on the number of victims of the Red Terror is another controversial issue. The discrepancies in numbers are very, very significant.: from 135 thousand to 400-500 thousand person. It is significant that such discrepancies are often caused not even by ideological approaches to the phenomenon of red terror itself, but by the fact that until now, during archaeological excavations and construction works, mass graves have been found.
                1. MrK
                  MrK 16 February 2017 20: 09
                  +5
                  Quote: RUSS
                  “Enemy agents, speculators, thugs, hooligans, counter-revolutionary agitators, German spies are shot at the crime scene


                  Well so it's ok
                  1. RUSS
                    RUSS 16 February 2017 21: 54
                    0
                    Quote: mrark
                    Well so it's ok

                    Without trial and investigation?
                2. avva2012
                  avva2012 17 February 2017 04: 27
                  +3
                  Quote: RUSS Decree and implement the complete disarmament of the population, shoot on the spot mercilessly for any hidden rifle

                  So, you, as a layman, imagine this picture: you have a rifle, a neighbor has a rifle and a grenade, and another neighbor has a machine gun? Cover your eyes and imagine that wonderful world where there is all of the above. wink
                  Scientists are still arguing about how many people died in the Civil War. Either 8, or 10 millions. Relatively believed that in equal shares, the white and red terror claimed 500 thousand people. Roughly calculated, the loss of military personnel on both sides: about 2,5 million people (more "accurately", of course, from the Red Army: 980741 - 1mln. 243 thousand).
                  It is difficult to say how many civilians died from disease, starvation.
                  But, all the same, the numbers are impressive, after simple arithmetic operations, that all the others who died are just because “you have a rifle, your neighbor has a rifle and a grenade, and another neighbor has a machine gun”.
                  Put yourself in the place of V.I. Lenin and think about how, in that mess that arose in the country, to put things in order and save citizens from themselves?
                  PS Now, there’s no need to talk again that if there hadn’t been a Revolution, there would have been no mess.
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 17 February 2017 04: 01
              0
              Quote: RUSS Your Lenin was the first to create a concentration camp!

              He is as yours as ours. Maybe you are a foreigner? belay
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 17 February 2017 10: 19
                +1
                Quote: avva2012
                He is as yours as ours.

                No, Lenin is definitely not mine! This ghoul brought infection to Russia from the West from all sorts of Marx and Engels. The Germans quickly dispersed in their home all sorts of socialist republics of Bavarian, Saxon, etc., and here, "these" were entrenched for 70 years.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 17 February 2017 10: 56
                  +3
                  Quote: RUSS No, Lenin is definitely not mine! This ghoul brought infection to Russia from the West from all sorts of Marx and Engels.

                  The idea of ​​social equality, you call "contagion"? Do you use the remnants of the destroyed Soviet system, such as relatively free education, medicine and, in general, not a bad "labor code", and at the same time, do you call everything that our ancestors sought?
                  It’s difficult, I understand you, I have a different logic.
                  In my opinion, one should not confuse what the country came to as a result and what it was striving for. We all lost that war, which is not visible from the outside. Bought on clothes, grub and other pleasures. As a result, those ideas that V.I. Lenin tried to implement in a single country only became a reality for a short time. Alas, the fascists nevertheless achieved their goal, though at the cost of their own suicide. The country's progressive development was stopped, and then other people came to power for whom the ideas of universal justice were an empty phrase. They did not want to just work, or rather they did not know how. And the collapse came. This did not happen because the idea was wrong (it worked until the death of I.V. Stalin), but because the ghouls defeated above, and then their infection of decay and death, spread down. What you see now is capitalism in all its glory. Like?
                  The belly is full, the car, there is, though old, clothes, a computer too.
                  That's just the idea that it’s all around either feverish sleep, or prolonged agony.
                2. vladimirZ
                  vladimirZ 17 February 2017 14: 39
                  +2
                  No, Lenin is definitely not mine! This ghoul brought infection to Russia from the West from all sorts of Marxes and ... - RUSS

                  RUSS, well, that's enough nonsense to carry. Grasp the mind. Or are you really a stupid troll?
        4. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 16 February 2017 14: 15
          +9
          darling Olgovich, Denikin writes: “Since the beginning of 1919, we received 558 guns, 12 tanks, 1 shells and 685 million rifle cartridges from the British” [522]. In July 160, new tanks arrived from Great Britain to the South of Russia and their number as a part of the All-Russian Union of Railways reached 5 vehicles (1919 Mk V tanks and 74 Mk A Whippet tanks) [57]
          The Soviet military specialist, Doctor of Military Sciences P. A. Rotmistrov, cites data that during the autumn 1919 battles, the Red Army’s trophies turned out to be two dozen SSYUR tanks. [8] The largest SSYUR operation in terms of the number of tanks used was the assault on Tsaritsyn on the morning of June 30, 1919, the same day ended with the capture of the city by the Caucasian army of General Wrangel. In the assault on Tsaritsyn on the morning of June 30, 17 tanks took part: all 16 vehicles of the 1st tank division of the SSYUR (4 squads of 4 vehicles each) and another 1 tank in which the British crew was located (commander - one-armed captain Cox). melt side! wassat
        5. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 16 February 2017 14: 52
          +6
          In the Far East, the largest episodes of the battles of the Red partisans with Entente troops were the destruction in early June 1919 at the village of Krolevets of the Canadian battalion of 400 people and on June 23-27, 1919 the liquidation of the combined US-Japanese garrison in the mining village of Supan, as a result of which they were killed 900 American and Japanese troops.

          In addition to land battles in April-October 1919, a large-scale naval battle took place in the Baltic Sea between the English squadron consisting of 12 cruisers, 26 destroyers and destroyers, 1 aircraft carrier, 4 gunboats, 7 mine barriers, 10 torpedo boats and 12 submarines with an operating squadron The Baltic Fleet, consisting of 2 battleships, 1 cruiser, 12 destroyers and destroyers, 2 mine loaders, 8 minesweepers, 6 patrol ships and 4 submarines. During the battles of the Soviet and English fleets in the Baltic, which initially began in the second half of November 1918, and then, after clearing the Gulf of Finland from ice, they resumed in April 1919 and continued until the end of October of that year, the British lost: 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 4 minesweepers, 6 torpedo boats and one submarine. Losses of the Baltic Soviet fleet: 1 cruiser, 5 destroyers, 1 minesweeper. Having suffered a series of defeats during these long battles, the British left with nothing!
          One of the operations at that time even received an international response, such that the question of it was raised several times at three international conferences: Washington 1921-1922, Dairensk 1921-1922. and Changchun 1922

          What kind of operation was this that caused so much noise in international circles? The whole point was that a detachment of red partisans, having defeated the Kolchak garrison in February 1920, took control of the city of Nikolaevsk-on-Amur, and then, colliding with the Japanese garrison there, completely destroyed it with a sudden attack. During the three-day battles of March 12-14, 1920, the Japanese infantry regiment was liquidated along with its commander Ishikawa. During the military operations during the years 1918-1920, Far Eastern partisans rarely captured and Japanese never captured. Almost simultaneously with the Red Army's operations against the German bloc, in the same 1918 its battles with the Entente forces began. The most significant in 1918 in this regard was the battle of October 9-15 around the Dushak railway station southeast of Ashgabat.

          Here, an assault on the position of the Reds went over a group of British troops of more than a thousand people. In its composition, it had the 28th light cavalry regiment (300 sabers), a battalion of the Punjabi infantry regiment, reinforced by a company from the Hampshire infantry regiment (a total of 760 people). Strengthening parts of this group: 12 guns, 40 machine guns, 1 plane.

          The English and Anglo-Indian units (sepoys) were supported here by a group of White Guard troops located in Ashgabat of the Trans-Caspian government consisting of 1.800 bayonets, 1.300 sabers, 2 armored trains, 12 guns, 8 machine guns and 1 aircraft.

          During the four-day fierce fighting, the Anglo-White Guard troops managed to seize the Dushak station. But on October 14, the red forces launched a counterattack and by the end of the day on October 15 they again returned to their former lines of defense.

          During these weeks of fighting, the British lost half of their troops killed and wounded.


          More details: http://comstol.info/2015/07/obshhestvo/11443
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 16 February 2017 09: 24
      +2
      maybe they "lost" already under Oryol, and there was a dig - a waste of blood?
    3. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ 16 February 2017 10: 30
      +12
      It’s good that practically EVERYTHING remaining in the country, red Latvians and Estonians were plagued by root - Olgovich

      Or maybe it’s good that the White Guard bastard, which has been mocking people for centuries, has been plundered to the root? For centuries, landowners in Russia did not consider people to be their slaves, the bourgeoisie, who established 12-16 hours of working day at their factories, the monarchs covering this power of the rich over the poor. And this is the great merit of the Bolshevik party, under whose leadership the people were able to realize their century-old dream of freedom and social justice.
      It is surprising that there are now people who defend that oppressing people, system. Either there is no knowledge and no mind, or the offspring of those who were not finished off in 1917.
      But at the pace that the old system is reviving, oppressing the people, it will be necessary to purify Russia again from the oppressors.
      1. ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
        ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH 16 February 2017 10: 52
        +3
        Quote: vladimirZ
        it’s good that the White Guard bastard, mocking the people for centuries, was plagued by root

        ... and instead of it the Red Guard bastard began to be mocked at the people.
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 16 February 2017 11: 19
          +9
          Do not write nonsense. The Bolsheviks gave a worthy life to the absolute number of our people, who never, under any other authority, have lived this worthy life.
        2. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 16 February 2017 14: 19
          +8
          ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH yes yes so much wasted belay , made the electrification of the country, eliminated illiteracy! laughing
        3. MrK
          MrK 16 February 2017 15: 15
          +9
          Quote: ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
          and instead the Red Guard bastard began to be mocked over the people


          Strange how she was mocked. I, a kid from a working-class family, from the outskirts of a small district town, became a doctor of technical sciences. And without any money and doom.
      2. RUSS
        RUSS 16 February 2017 11: 14
        +2
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Or maybe it’s good that the White Guard bastard, which has been mocking people for centuries, has been plundered to the root? In Russia, landowners did not for centuries consider people their slaves, the bourgeoisie, who installed 12-16 hours of working day at their factories



        The problem of homelessness in our country sharply arose during the years of the Civil War. It was not possible to completely cope with it even by the mid-30s. Homeless people often hunted at train stations and railway stations. They took everything that was bad, robbed passengers on trains ... The resolution of May 31, 1935 noted that mass neglect was eliminated in the country. In addition, measures of responsibility for the children of their parents and guardians were strengthened, and the task was to tighten legislation on juvenile delinquents. As a former NKVD officer A. Orlov writes in the book The Secret History of Stalinist Crimes, back in 1932 an unwritten order was issued by Stalin - street children caught plundering food warehouses or railway cars, as well as those who will have sexually transmitted diseases, are to be shot. . Since there was no one to grieve over the shot young tramps, and this information was not made public, only a few knew about it. Thus, by the summer of 1934, hundreds of thousands of street children were destroyed in the Soviet Union.
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 16 February 2017 11: 22
          +12
          As the former NKVD officer A. Orlov writes in the book The Secret History of Stalinist Crimes, - RUSS

          Do not give examples of degenerates who fled to the West, they will write everything just to earn their 30 silver coins in this West.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 16 February 2017 11: 55
            0
            Quote: vladimirZ
            Do not give examples of degenerates who fled to the West, they will write everything just to earn their 30 silver coins in this West.

            Have you heard of the Union for the Revolution? Or is it also a lie?
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 16 February 2017 11: 32
          +9
          Quote: RUSS: As the former NKVD officer A. Orlov writes in the book “The Secret History of Stalinist Crimes”, back in 1932, an unspoken order of Stalin was issued - street children caught plundering food warehouses or railway cars, as well as those who would have sexually transmitted diseases, were to be shot .

          What is the unspoken decree of Stalin? belay Stalin, in your opinion, could publish "unspoken letters"? wassat Why didn’t the venereal teenagers please him? wink You fakes about Stalin with fakes about Beria are not confused? laughing
          Since there was no one to grieve over the shot young tramps, and this information was not made public, only a few knew about it.

          I am now bursting into tears!
          A traitor to the motherland, he shouts like a gray gelding, but are you happy to deliver it all?
          A. Orlov: in the personnel department of the NKVD was listed as Lev Lazarevich Nikolsky, in the USA - Igor Konstantinovich Berg, real name - Lev (Leib) Lazarevich Feldbin; - Soviet intelligence officer, major of state security.
          Major of state security, this is such a major major !!! He then knew everything, maybe even the thoughts of the Secretary General of the CPSU (B.), Read, right? wassat
          Thanks! Have fun from the heart!
        3. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 16 February 2017 14: 28
          +6
          RUSS you are not tired of posting liberal fables! belay In conclusion, I will cite the text of the Canadian scientist Peter Solomon quoted by I. Pykhalov in the above-mentioned book: In the course of working with extensive archival documents (both the author himself and his colleagues), it was not possible to find examples of the execution of death sentences (for minors. - I.P. ) Only in June 1936 did the leadership of the justice system inform Stalin and Molotov of one incident when eight teenagers aged 15 to 18 years systematically raped schoolgirls under the threat of using weapons. The judicial authorities asked the party and government leaders for permission to judge these criminals under the article “banditry” (Articles 59–3 of the Criminal Code) and apply the death penalty to the sixteen-year-old leader of the gang. (It should be noted that “banditry” was not a crime mentioned in the decree.) There is no documentary evidence of the response of Stalin and Molotov to this letter. The official documents cited above of that time allow us to conclude that the leaders refused ”(Solomon P. Soviet justice under Stalin / Transl. From English M., 1998. P.196). PS The topic of the application of the Criminal Code in relation to minors is also considered by I. Pykhalov in the chapters “In the dock” and “Children in the Gulag”. I recommend that you familiarize yourself with them for a better understanding of the topic. lol

          http://r-v-s.su/statia/kazni-nesovershennoletnih-
          v-sssr-ocherednoy-antisovetskiy-mif # hcq = Jiaqobq
        4. MrK
          MrK 16 February 2017 20: 33
          +6
          Quote: RUSS
          Thus, by the summer of 1934, hundreds of thousands of street children were destroyed in the Soviet Union.


          Well, how all these liberals of RUSSIA lie. And why do we need to constantly make excuses?

          7 April 1935 was published by the decree of the CEC and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR "On measures to combat crime among minors." I quote his text.
          “In order to quickly eliminate crime among minors, the CEC and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR decide:
          1. Involve minors, starting at the age of 12, who have been convicted of theft, of causing violence, bodily harm, mutilation, murder or attempted murder, to be brought to a criminal court with the application of all criminal sanctions.
          2. Persons convicted of inciting or engaging minors to participate in various crimes, as well as forcing minors to engage in speculation, prostitution, begging, etc., - shall be punished with imprisonment of at least 5 years.
          3. Cancel Art. 8 "The Basic Principles of the Criminal Legislation of the USSR and Union Republics." "

          According to the Criminal Code of the RSFSR adopted in 1926 and in force during the period under review, the following maximum penalties were provided for the crimes listed in the Resolution of April 7 April 1935:

          St. 136. Aggressive aggravated murder was punishable by imprisonment of up to 10 years.

          St. 137. Premeditated murder without aggravating consequences was punishable by imprisonment for up to 8 years.

          Art. 138. A murder committed in a state of great emotional unrest was punishable by imprisonment for up to 5 years.

          Art. 139. Assassination committed through negligence - up to 3 years in prison.

          St. 142. Causing bodily harm - up to 8 years in prison. If they caused the death of the victim - until 10 years.

          St. 153. Rape - up to 5 years in prison. If caused the death of the victim - up to 8 years.

          St. 162. Theft. Punishment - up to 5 years of imprisonment.

          And finally. Back in the 1990's in the states of North Carolina and Arkansas, the minimum age at which the death penalty was applied was 14 years.
      3. RUSS
        RUSS 16 February 2017 11: 16
        +1
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Or maybe it’s good that the White Guard bastard, which has been mocking people for centuries, has been plundered to the root? In Russia, landowners did not for centuries consider people their slaves, the bourgeoisie, who installed 12-16 hours of working day at their factories,



        The problem of homelessness in our country sharply arose during the years of the Civil War. It was not possible to completely cope with it even by the mid-30s. Homeless people often hunted at train stations and railway stations. They took everything that was bad, robbed passengers on trains ... The resolution of May 31, 1935 noted that mass neglect was eliminated in the country. In addition, measures of responsibility for the children of their parents and guardians were strengthened, and the task was to tighten legislation on juvenile delinquents. As the former NKVD officer A. Orlov writes in the book The Secret History of Stalinist Crimes, back in 1932 an unspoken order was issued by Stalin - street children caught plundering food warehouses or railway cars, as well as those who will have sexually transmitted diseases, are to be shot. . Since there was no one to grieve over the shot young tramps, and this information was not made public, only a few knew about it. Thus, by the summer of 1934, hundreds of thousands of street children were destroyed in the Soviet Union.
        1. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 16 February 2017 14: 28
          +5
          RUSS you are not tired of posting liberal fables! belay In conclusion, I will cite the text of the Canadian scientist Peter Solomon quoted by I. Pykhalov in the aforementioned book: While working with extensive archival documents (both the author himself and his colleagues), it was not possible to find examples of the execution of death sentences (for minors. - I.P. .). Only in June 1936, the leadership of the justice authorities informed Stalin and Molotov of one incident when eight teenagers aged 15 to 18 years systematically raped schoolgirls under the threat of using weapons. The judicial authorities asked the party and government leaders for permission to judge these criminals under the article “banditry” (articles 59–3 of the Criminal Code) and apply the death penalty to the sixteen-year-old leader of the gang. (It should be noted that “banditry” was not a crime mentioned in the decree.) There is no documentary evidence of the response of Stalin and Molotov to this letter. The official documents cited above of that time allow us to conclude that the leaders refused ”(Solomon P. Soviet justice under Stalin / Transl. From English M., 1998. P.196). PS The topic of the application of the Criminal Code in relation to minors is also considered by I. Pykhalov in the chapters “In the dock” and “Children in the Gulag”. I recommend that you familiarize yourself with them for a better understanding of the topic. laughing
          http://r-v-s.su/statia/kazni-nesovershennoletnih-
          v-sssr-ocherednoy-antisovetskiy-mif # hcq = Jiaqobq
      4. Olgovich
        Olgovich 16 February 2017 11: 31
        +4
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Or maybe it’s good that the White Guard bastard, which has been mocking people for centuries, has been plundered to the root? For centuries, landowners in Russia did not consider people to be their slaves, the bourgeoisie, who established 12-16 hours of working day at their factories, the monarchs covering this power of the rich over the poor. And this is the great merit of the Bolshevik party, under whose leadership the people were able to realize their century-old dream of freedom and social justice.
        It is surprising that there are now people who defend that oppressing people, system. Or knowledge and mind, or offspring of those whome finished off in 1917.

        So the Bolsheviks were so blundered: they beat and beat for decades and didn’t finish it, all the same, only enemies remained around.
        Or maybe these hitters it was necessary to knock out, and the Russian people would have more left?
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 16 February 2017 11: 46
          +9

          You compare the number of people on whose side is greater, the red or the white, and everything will work out right away.
          If you destroy the whites, which was done, the people will live in the country and make it the second world power.
          If you do it your way, then you need to destroy the whole nation, fill the whole country with blood, for the sake of the whims of the rich, to restore their position as an oppressive class.
          As they say, feel the difference if you have enough mind to appreciate it.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 16 February 2017 13: 08
            +5
            Quote: vladimirZ
            You compare the number of people on whose side is greater, the red or the white, and everything will work out right away.
            If you destroy the whites, which was done, the people will live in the country and make it the second world power.
            If you do it your way, then you need to destroy the whole nation, fill the whole country with blood, for the sake of the whims of the rich, to restore their position as an oppressive class.
            As they say, feel the difference if you have enough mind to appreciate it.


            The result of the Bolsheviksthe Russian people dying towards the end of their reign и torn to pieces historical Russia, with a treacherously devoted so-called Ukraine Russian Novorossia and other Russian lands.

            By the way, like all other admirers of the Bolsheviks, the simplest question is: Is Novorossia Russia or Ukraine, by order of the Bolsheviks, forcibly shoved into it? Only without july: either-or?
            None of the witnesses of Bolshevism dared to answer DIRECTLY to this question.
            1. Uncle Murzik
              Uncle Murzik 16 February 2017 14: 32
              +5
              another myth from Olgovich lol Population The population of the USSR in 1976 was 6,4% of the global population. The population of the USSR (within modern borders) changed as follows (million people): 86,3 as of January 1, 1870; 124,6 on January 1, 1897; 159,2 at the end of 1913; 194,1 on January 1, 1940; 178,5 on January 1, 1950; 208,8 on January 15, 1959; 241,7 on January 15, 1970; 257,9 on January 1, 1977. Despite the enormous losses associated with the two world wars and the Civil War, the population grew quite rapidly. By 1940, the USSR had 22% more inhabitants than Russia in 1913. During the Great Patriotic War of 1941–45, direct losses of the USSR amounted to over 20 million people .; indirect losses were also great (a decrease in the birth rate and an increase in mortality). The pre-war population was restored only by 1955. Over the next 21 years, the population increased by 61,1 million people, or 31,4%. By 1976, the population of the USSR increased by 1913% compared with 60,6.
            2. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 16 February 2017 15: 16
              +5
              Quote: Olgovich
              The result of the Bolsheviks is the Russian people dying towards the end of their reign and historical Russia torn to pieces by them

              I wonder who would you be if the Bolsheviks did not come to power?
              Quote: Olgovich
              Is Novorossia Russia or Ukraine, by order of the Bolsheviks, forcibly shoved into it? Only without july: either-or?

              Novrossia is Russia!
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 16 February 2017 18: 48
                +3
                Quote: Stroporez
                Novrossia is Russia!

                I agree! This means that the Bolshevik criminals, once passed it to the never-existent "Ukraine."
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 16 February 2017 19: 04
                  +4
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  This means that the Bolshevik criminals, once passed it to the never-existent "Ukraine."

                  The Bolsheviks gathered the country and there was simply no other option, as the signing of an alliance treaty.
                  Remember the intervention and which territories were under the invaders, but in fact the invaders.
            3. Polkanov
              Polkanov 16 February 2017 16: 45
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              Quote: vladimirZ
              You compare the number of people on whose side is greater, the red or the white, and everything will work out right away.
              If you destroy the whites, which was done, the people will live in the country and make it the second world power.
              If you do it your way, then you need to destroy the whole nation, fill the whole country with blood, for the sake of the whims of the rich, to restore their position as an oppressive class.
              As they say, feel the difference if you have enough mind to appreciate it.


              The result of the Bolsheviksthe Russian people dying towards the end of their reign и torn to pieces historical Russia, with a treacherously devoted so-called Ukraine Russian Novorossia and other Russian lands.

              By the way, like all other admirers of the Bolsheviks, the simplest question is: Is Novorossia Russia or Ukraine, by order of the Bolsheviks, forcibly shoved into it? Only without july: either-or?
              None of the witnesses of Bolshevism dared to answer DIRECTLY to this question.

              ... well, you have a fan, my friend! Don't you drive an assassin? ...
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 16 February 2017 18: 49
                +3
                Quote: Polkanov
                Well, you have a fan, my friend! Don't you drive an assassin? ..


                Strange you .... request
      5. RUSS
        RUSS 16 February 2017 11: 33
        +2
        Quote: vladimirZ
        And this is the great merit of the Bolshevik party, under whose leadership the people were able to realize their century-old dream of freedom and social justice.

        In 1940 criminal liability was introduced for being late for work, starting with being late for more than 20 minutes. Landing for 5 years was provided. Absenteeism could be qualified as a deliberate disruption of the production process, i.e., sabotage. For this they gave from 10 years to the "tower".
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 16 February 2017 11: 53
          +7
          In 1940 criminal liability for being late for work was introduced, - RUSS

          RUSS, you will appreciate in what objective conditions these measures have been taken to strengthen production discipline: the World War has already begun, which should not have bypassed the USSR.
          The question was the survival of not only the USSR, but also of our entire people.
          Therefore, issues of strengthening production discipline, the growth of military output before the war was a vital necessity.
          It is a pity that you do not understand this or do not want to understand, then you just troll the discussion.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 16 February 2017 18: 45
            +2
            Quote: vladimirZ
            The question was the survival of not only the USSR, but also of our entire people.

            Are you ready to become a victim of repression and red terror for the good of the Fatherland? If you lived in those days?
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Uncle Murzik
              Uncle Murzik 17 February 2017 06: 00
              +3
              RUSS same repression only in the fables of the liberals! wassat
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 17 February 2017 13: 17
                0
                Quote: Uncle Murzik
                RUSS same repression only in the fables of the liberals! wassat

                Since entry into force Law of the RSFSR No. 1761-1 of October 18, 1991 "On the rehabilitation of victims of political repression" Until 2004, over 630 thousand people were rehabilitated. Some of the repressed (for example, many leaders of the NKVD, those involved in terror and committed non-political criminal offenses) were found not to be rehabilitated - more than 970 thousand applications for rehabilitation were examined.
                The Communists themselves introduced the law on repression, also a myth?
                1. Uncle Murzik
                  Uncle Murzik 17 February 2017 13: 38
                  +1
                  RUSS and where are your fables about hundreds of thousands of shot street children! And millions destroyed in the Gulag!
                  1. RUSS
                    RUSS 17 February 2017 17: 17
                    0
                    Quote: Uncle Murzik
                    RUSS and where are your fables about hundreds of thousands of shot street children! And millions destroyed in the Gulag!

                    Massive legal rehabilitation began as a result of the work of the commission of P. N. Pospelov. In 1954-1961 for lack of corpus delicti were rehabilitated 737 182 convicted person; in 1962-1983 were rehabilitated 157 055 people

                    The rehabilitation process was resumed in the late 1980s. on the initiative of M. S. Gorbachev and A. N. Yakovlev, when not only almost all the repressed leaders of the CPSU (b) were rehabilitated, but also many "class enemies". In 1988-89, cases were reviewed for 856 582 people, rehabilitated 844 740 people

                    On November 14, 1989, the Supreme Soviet of the USSR in its declaration declared:
                    The barbaric actions of the Stalinist regime was the eviction during the Second World War from the homelands of the Balkars, Ingush, Kalmyks, Karachais, Crimean Tatars, Germans, Meskhetian Turks, Chechens. The policy of forced resettlement affected the fate of Koreans, Greeks, Kurds and other peoples. The Supreme Soviet of the USSR unconditionally condemns the practice of the forcible resettlement of entire peoples as a grave crime, contrary to the foundations of international law, to the humanistic nature of the socialist system.
                    The Supreme Council of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics guarantees that the violation of human rights and humanity at the state level will never be repeated in our country.
                    Code of laws of the USSR, v. 10, p. 229, 1990 g
                    1. Uncle Murzik
                      Uncle Murzik 18 February 2017 17: 14
                      0
                      RUSS and all? Well, let's calculate how many were killed by whites, only for civilian? On the Internet, part of the requests for the name of the "repressed" brought us to the Memorial website. Is it worth believing the data of this resource, in the light of its controversial financial and judicial history - you decide. I would not advise. On a pair of surnames in open sources nothing was found. A request to the archives also yielded nothing. Perhaps the “immortal Gulag” simply invented them for the volume of the number of repressed. But on three names Wikipedia gave an extremely interesting answer.
                      Ivanchenko Nikolai Nikolaevich According to Wikipedia, he is also a scientist, engineer and professor, but there is no information about his death. True, in 1939 he graduated from the LII GVF. During the siege of Leningrad, he was engaged in the design and installation of diesel-electric installations at enterprises. He became a professor in 1966. And until 1986, he worked at the Central Research Diesel Institute.

                      How Comrade Ivanchenko came out after repressions and execution to make such a dizzying career is worth asking the activists of the Immortal Gulag. Although here they will probably answer that the name "Nikolay Nikolayevich Ivanchenko" was quite common in Soviet Russia and their repressed "scientist, engineer and professor Ivanchenko", "scientist, engineer and professor Ivanchenko" from the free encyclopedia are simply namesake. And indeed, professors by the name of Ivanchenko in the country of councils were "a dime a dozen." Immortal Gulag - a lie for the sake of PR
                      pikabu.ru ›... bessmertnyiy_gulag__lozh_radi_piara ...
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 16 February 2017 11: 57
          +9
          Quote: RUSS: Landing was planned for 5 years. Absenteeism could be qualified as a deliberate disruption of the production process, i.e., sabotage. For this they gave from 10 years to the "tower".

          “According to the submission of the All-Union Central Council of Trade Unions, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR decides:
          1. To increase the working hours of workers and employees in all state, cooperative and public enterprises and institutions:
          from seven to eight hours - at enterprises with a seven-hour working day;
          from six to seven hours - at work with a six-hour working day, with the exception of professions with harmful working conditions, according to lists approved by the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR;
          from six to eight hours - for employees of institutions;
          from six to eight hours - for those who have reached 16-years.
          2. To transfer work in all state, cooperative and public enterprises and institutions from six days to seven days, counting the seventh day of the week - Sunday - as a day of rest.
          3. To prohibit the unauthorized departure of workers and employees from state, cooperative and public enterprises and institutions, as well as the unauthorized transfer from one enterprise to another or from one institution to another.
          Leaving the enterprise and institution, or moving from one enterprise to another and from one institution to another, can only be allowed by the director of the enterprise or the head of the institution.
          4. To establish that the director of the enterprise and the head of the institution is entitled and obliged to give permission for the caretaker and employee to leave the enterprise or the institution in the following cases:
          a) when the worker, employee or employee, according to the conclusion of the medical labor expert commission, cannot perform his previous work due to illness or disability, and the administration cannot provide him with other suitable work in the same enterprise or institution, or when a pensioner who has been granted an old-age pension wants to quit work;
          b) when a worker, employee or employee must stop working in connection with enrolling him in a higher or secondary specialized educational institution.
          Holidays for workers and women employees in maternity leave are maintained in accordance with applicable law.
          5. To establish that workers and employees who voluntarily left state, cooperative and public enterprises or institutions are tried and are sentenced by the people's court to imprisonment from 2 months to 4 months.
          To establish that for absenteeism without good reason workers and employees of state, cooperative and public enterprises and institutions indulge court and by the verdict of the People’s Court are punished by corrective labor at the place of work for up to 6 months with deduction from wages up to 25%.
          In this regard, to abolish compulsory dismissal for absenteeism without good reason.
          To propose to the people's courts all cases specified in this article to be considered no more than in 5-day period and to execute sentences in these cases immediately.
          6. To establish that directors of enterprises and heads of institutions for evading the prosecution of persons guilty of unauthorized departure from the enterprise and from the institution, and persons guilty of absenteeism without good reason - are prosecuted.
          It is also established that the directors of enterprises and the heads of institutions who hired persons hiding from the law, who left the enterprises and institutions without permission, are subject to judicial liability.
          7. This Decree comes into force on June 27 1940 year.
          Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR - M. Kalinin
          Secretary of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR - A. Gorkin
          Moscow Kremlin. 26 June 1940 "
          By God, you are in shock today! lol
        3. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 16 February 2017 12: 10
          +7
          Quote: RUSS
          In 1940 criminal liability was introduced for being late for work, starting with being late for more than 20 minutes.

          And no wonder. Read the history of the Soviet aircraft industry from Mukhin (a historian, not a propagandist) - there the situation with discipline at the enterprises in the late 30s is shown very well. Half an hour late was not even fixed - but how will the worker take offense and leave? After all, before the well-known decree, the worker did not even need to write a statement and receive the director’s signature on him for dismissal - the worker could simply not go to work at any time. After which the dismissal occurred automatically. Practice, workaround - no, not heard.
          Yes, and these workers worked ...
          A typical case is a “photograph of the working day” of the milling machine operator Milekhin, taken in February 1941 at factory No. 22 named after Gorbunova. For 1,5 shifts, Milekhin out of 660 minutes worked only 262. The rest were spent unproductively: installing the machine (35 minutes), receiving a tool (35 minutes), a simple 30 minutes, began cleaning the workplace 27 minutes before the actual completion date work. What the rest of the time took is not indicated. Melekhin, this is an exceptional case, but it draws attention that of the 6 people whose working hours were timed, no one worked for more than 494 minutes, and downtime reached 200-300 minutes.
          © Mukhin
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 16 February 2017 13: 23
            +5
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Read the history of the Soviet aircraft industry from Mukhina (historian, not propagandist)

            Mukhin is a historian ?! The author of "Anti-Apollon ?! Author" Crusade to the East. "Victims of the Second World"?
            belay No words ...

            This is a science fiction that creates a never-existent "reality."
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 16 February 2017 18: 09
              +3
              Quote: Olgovich
              Mukhin is a historian ?! The author of "Anti-Apollon ?! Author" Crusade to the East. "Victims of the Second World"?

              I wrote in black and gray - from the historian Mukhin. The author of books and articles on the history of the Soviet aircraft industry. For instance: Mikhail Yurievich Mukhin. Soviet aircraft industry during the Great Patriotic War.
              And the propagandist is Yuri Mukhin. I remember his runs over Isaev ...
            2. Uncle Murzik
              Uncle Murzik 17 February 2017 08: 07
              0
              Olgovich is understandable to you nicer than Solzhenitsyn, Gozmans, and Svinidze! wassat
        4. Parsec
          Parsec 16 February 2017 13: 03
          +7
          Quote: RUSS
          In 1940 criminal liability was introduced for being late for work, starting with being late for more than 20 minutes. Landing for 5 years was provided.

          Criminal liability for absenteeism and unauthorized departure from enterprises was established on June 26, 1940 by the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR "On the transition to an eight-hour working day, a seven-day working week and the prohibition of unauthorized departure of workers and employees from enterprises and institutions":
          ...
          To establish that for absenteeism without good reason, workers and employees of state, cooperative and public enterprises and institutions are brought to court and, upon the verdict of the people's court, are punished with corrective labor at the place of work for up to 6 months with deduction from wages up to 25%.
          ...
          Are you illiterate or knowingly lying?
          Again the legends of thieves and loafers - he was twenty minutes late and got five years. You look at the case - a member of a normal gang, and even nearly killed a master who was trying to prevent the destruction of a batch of products ...
    4. avva2012
      avva2012 16 February 2017 10: 51
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich The Russian Army did NOT fight with Britain in 1920.

      I haven’t fought with Britain, nor with France.
      I doubt that this conversation will convince you of anything, but it has something about Wrangel.
    5. avt
      avt 16 February 2017 14: 42
      +8
      Quote: Olgovich
      Pure foreign mercenary bandits in their own Latvia, returning

      Well, this resolutely whistler with a dance performs an artistic whistle to them. Igor Chubais. laughing The question only carries nonsense solely out of love for art, or is it really meanly so, according to I. Chubais? So, a lover of crunching rolls in the French manner. Gathered to talk about History, well, so honestly talk about everything, and do not pick out your favorite, raisins "from your" rolls. " The Latvian division, the largest and most efficient rifle unit of the Bolsheviks, was formed on the basis of the Latvian battalions, the personnel of which voluntarily, and not by draft, went to fight in the Imperial Army and fought honestly at the front until 1917. The second and no less important thing is that EVERYTHING is well known long ago, as for the personnel of already Bolshevik Latvian formations. They were INTERNATIONAL, and not mono-ethnic, a medical fact confirmed by documents, yes, the percentage of ethnic Latvians was sometimes more than 50%, but not all 100. And he did not disband the division, having gone home, and they were deformed by the decision of the Red Army command by merging with 52 division . Moreover, at that time, out of 16 thousand Latvians, there were 8 thousand. And yes, most of the DEMOBILIZED really returned to Latvia.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 16 February 2017 19: 03
        +3
        Quote: avt
        The Atys division, the largest and most efficient rifle unit of the Bolsheviks, was formed on the basis of the Latvian battalions, whose personnel voluntarily, and not by draft, went to fight in the Imperial Army and


        You are illiterate: this Latvian division isregular troops of the Latvian Independent Soviet Republic, organized in Latvia in 1919, Lenin recognized its independence. They were given a face in their homeland in 1919, and they went to kill the Russians in Russia.
        1. avt
          avt 16 February 2017 19: 58
          +6
          Quote: Olgovich
          You are illiterate: this Latvian division is the regular troops of the Latvian Independent Soviet Republic, organized in Latvia in 1919,

          Learn the materiel before you poke something on the clave! The corps of Latvian riflemen was founded by order of the commander-in-chief Krylenko on December 17, 1917. And in November 1918, after operations on the Eastern Front, there were units of 1,4,6, regiments of Latvian riflemen and a company in Latvia, the Pskov division, together, began operations at the Dno station with with the 2nd Latvian rifle brigade. Naturally, various partisan detachments of the left wing were included in the Red Army. But actually what is it? Goltz was also full of Latvians, and, characteristically, of the very first volunteer battalions that fought against the Germans in the Imperial Army - the grimace of Civil War .. Then, when von der Goltz knocked out the Red Army, they joined the Latvian division and other units Civil on other TVDs. So before you say anything to me, learn the materiel. And lastly, a little about the “mercenaries” of the Latvians in the 10th infantry regiment -90%, 11-70%, 12-2%, 13-95%, 14-2% in artillery -3%, and so on to the list, and that was when they fought against Golets in Latvia.
          Quote: avt
          They were INTERNATIONAL, not mono-ethnic, a medical fact confirmed by documents, yes, the percentage of ethnic Latvians was sometimes more than 50%, but not all 100
          1. cost
            cost 17 February 2017 00: 13
            +4
            The White Guard, The White Cause, The White Army, The White Idea, as they are no longer called. This name is firmly entrenched in Bolshevik history. I must disappoint you - this is not self-designation, but the designation of the enemy as the victorious proletariat. For example Olgovich , almost rarely uses this expression apparently, judging by its competent links, he is quite savvy in this matter. In the time of Gr. it was called the war - the Counter-Revolution, the military-political movement of politically heterogeneous forces, formed during the Civil War of 1917-1923 in Russia with the goal of overthrowing Soviet power. It included representatives of both moderate socialists and republicans, as well as monarchists. Both the separatists (in the Cossack regions, in Ukraine, Finland, the Caucasus, the Basmachism of Central Asia), and the supporters of a “united and indivisible Russia”. The trouble of counterrevolution in the absence of unity. These military groups were often in direct military confrontation with each other. The term "White Movement" originated in Soviet Russia, and since the 1923s. began to be used in Russian emigration.
            Now facts: In Russian history, the term “white ...”, referring to the supporters of anti-revolutionary forces, was first used during the October battles in Moscow - a detachment of Moscow youth students, who took up arms to repel a Bolshevik speech, donned white armored identifications and got the name “white” Guard "(as opposed to the Bolshevik" Red Guard ")
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 17 February 2017 04: 33
              +2
              Quote: Rich The term "White Movement" originated in Soviet Russia, and since the 1923's. began to be used in Russian emigration.

              The term "white movement" originated in France, if my memory does not boggle me and meant royalists.
              1. cost
                cost 17 February 2017 04: 56
                +6
                No need to take words out of context. I have clearly written: "In Russian history the term "white ... and so on.

                avva2012: "The term" white movement "originated in France, if my memory doesn’t bother me and denotes royalists".
                You are absolutely right.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 17 February 2017 07: 12
                  +1
                  I apologize, “pulled out” not out of malice. hi
  3. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 16 February 2017 09: 19
    +4
    Why the defense by the White Guards of Crimea collapsed is written in sufficient detail in Wrangel’s memoirs, as well as in more detail in Slashchev’s memoirs “I demand the court of society and publicity. Defense and surrender of Crimea. (Memoirs and documents)” (Constantinople, 1921) and “Crimea in 1920. Excerpts from the memoirs "1924. And there is no need to invent anything" new "..
  4. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 16 February 2017 12: 45
    +7
    Wrangel was, of course, more intelligent than Denikin.
    Denikin was an honest soldier, "hard worker", but with zero commander abilities
    and with zero political vision.
    But Wrangel somehow tried to equip Crimea politically, to create a semblance of a “parliament”,
    agree with workers on salaries and working conditions.
    He had few military forces. Not all volunteer fighters from
    the defeated regiments of Denikin went to the Crimea. Many
    emigrated irrevocably.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 16 February 2017 13: 55
      +3
      Yeah, more intelligent. I understood something in the gesheft. He pushed the Black Sea Fleet ships to the French at a reasonable price. wink
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 16 February 2017 15: 28
        +3
        He needed cash to pay salaries, like
        officers and soldiers, and workers in military contracts.
        And the ships were completely useless.
    2. avt
      avt 16 February 2017 15: 12
      +4
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Wrangel was, of course, more intelligent than Denikin.

      laughing Oh, wei! We don’t need to write the history of the Civil War! Moreover, there is no secret how Denikin took Oryol right now and by what efforts he was first stopped and then smashed. Almost all combat-ready types were collected, such as the Latvian division, the 1st cavalry, the Chervono Cossacks corps, and even then Blucher’s division came to Perekop under the wise eyes of a member of the military council of Stalin. If it had not been for the Chekist game of Denikin’s divorce from Kolchak, the heroic Tsaritsyn’s defense, with the participation of the same Stalin, when Kolchak was stopped and thrown back before he came up and occupied the city of Denikin. Wrangel really was able to evacuate correctly from the Crimea.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 16 February 2017 15: 26
        +3
        "Oh wei! We don’t need to write the history of the Civil War!" ///

        Why are you trying to write it? smile
        You confirmed everything that I wrote about Denikin: he attacked Moscow in the forehead
        along the railroad. All his actions were predictable, like the seasons.
        Due to the wild slowness of its headquarters, the logistics of the Good Army were disgusting. The British brought him tanks with experience of the 1st World crew volunteers (!!!).
        These tanks didn’t deliver on time to the forefront of the railway, could not provide fuel,
        the simplest of those. service. Same thing with airplanes. All equipment was stupidly lost.
        And so - Denikin did not steal, did not coward, tried to stop drunkenness and looting in his army ...
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 16 February 2017 16: 31
          0
          And he was not anti-Semite, right?
          To have a Jewish nation in Russia, if the whites came to power, I think Hitler shot himself with envy b, even earlier. So you would not care that Denikin, that Wrangel, one hell, genocide. In general, a Jewish anti-Soviet, this is nonsense. Something awkward in him. I hope you are not one of these. hi
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 16 February 2017 18: 31
            +1
            "And he was not anti-Semite, right?" ///

            Denikin - personally - was not an anti-Semite. Right
            He had two regiments of volunteers. Officer "Markovites" (then there were two of them) and "student" (civilian). In the first, there were many anti-Semites among the officers. In the second, many Jews fought, surprisingly. If in officers there was higher military training, then in "student" discipline was much higher. And in the decisive moments of the battles it was often more persistent
            namely the "student" regiment of General Borovsky.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 17 February 2017 04: 44
              0
              Quote: voyaka uh In the second, many Jews fought, surprisingly.

              Amazing of course.
              Naturally, someone did not like the nationalization of property, but, purely because of self-preservation, they should understand that some are not very good, to put it mildly, tendencies. For example, propaganda among whites about who seized power in the country. Posters with the image of Trotsky, for example. And, in general, the general mood of gentlemen-officers. Assuming that whites came to power. For a minute. And now these are their problems in the form of hunger, cold, and devastation. What do you think they will represent among the main culprits of all this? Presented? Therefore, I wrote above that Hitler would have shot himself ...
        2. avt
          avt 16 February 2017 19: 32
          +5
          Quote: voyaka uh
          You confirmed everything that I wrote about Denikin: he attacked Moscow in the forehead

          laughing Do you want songs? But better look for campaign details. Everything was there and very competently, and Denikin did not have a numerical superiority, well, and the Mamontov and Shkuro cavalry raids, in general, the classic of using cavalry corps, BEFORE the creation of the 1st horse. Budenny corps then operated. so no frontal attacks, a la kin ,, Chapaev "with Butterfly in the title role.
          Quote: voyaka uh
          The good army's logistics was disgusting

          bully ,, Logistics "was normal for Civil, again ,, and the All-Russian Cheka was monitoring everything," competently working with the same Makhno. so that everything there was like people’s and even a little better. But, I repeat, as I already said, the political support of the masses was on the side of the Bolsheviks and they, with the energy and cruelty of Trotsky and Stalin’s ta-a-varish in the directions of the main attack, are quite competent they disposed of it. The main miscalculation of Denikin was not in his tactics and strategy. The people simply didn’t go after the whites and they had NO attractive ideology or a really united ideology of the party, which could overwhelm its sincere faith in the teaching preached. Just look at the ratio of forces in the number of opposing troops.
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Why is Wrangel to blame?

          He is nothing. It was simply that the work on creating the plan of the joint strategic operation by him and Denikin was correctly upset by the agency. The crown of this operation was the capture of a yacht in the Caspian Sea with General Zarya-Zaryanitsky. The result was a delay in the advance of Denikin, so Kolchak was defeated earlier on the Volga and a joint campaign was not allowed. The brilliant operation of the Cheka! good
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 16 February 2017 15: 41
        +3
        "If it were not for the Chekist game to divorce Denikin and Kolchak" ///

        Why is Wrangel to blame?
        I wrote that Denikin was zero in politics.
        and Kolchak was in this respect his twin brother. Instead of leaning
        to the broad masses of the Urals and Siberians who did not like the Bolsheviks and voted
        against them in the Constituent Assembly, Kolchak took ataman-sadists as assistants,
        trying to win, as in antiquity - drowning dissatisfied in the blood.
        Therefore, Denikon and Kolchak could not agree on the simplest interaction.

        Vaughn Yudenich was both a politician and a tactician - he immediately slammed the Red Army so that Trotsky didn’t
        I ventured to stick in there more.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 16 February 2017 16: 42
          +3
          Yudenich had a goal, to take Peter. Smog? And if not, then the price is worthless. General Morozz, or many others who referred.
          At the expense of sadistic chieftains. There is a proverb: what is pop, such is a parish. Cocainist Normal encephalopathy, as a result, with sadistic tendencies, as a result.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 16 February 2017 18: 15
          +3
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Vaughn Yudenich was both a politician and a tactician - he immediately slammed the Red Army so that Trotsky did not dare to snoop there anymore.

          Yudenich politician? Do not make me funny - because of the firmness of Yudenich with his "single and indivisible"negotiations with Mannerheim about an alliance for the capture of Petrograd broke. Yes, the Finn asked to cut Russian territory to Finland. But who prevented us from promising and not giving back - as any politician would do? smile
          As a result, the campaign to Petrograd failed - even the British did not help.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 16 February 2017 18: 35
            +1
            "Yudenich had a goal to take Peter" ///

            Yudenich was a realist. With the small powers that he had,
            to take a huge capital city was impossible. He was hoping for the inside
            rebellion against the Bolsheviks when he comes up. What didn’t happen.
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 17 February 2017 01: 14
              +3
              Quote: voyaka uh
              Yudenich was a realist. With the small forces that he had, it was impossible to take the huge capital city. He hoped for an internal uprising against the Bolsheviks when he came up. What didn’t happen.


              How can you consider Yudenich a realist? If he were, he would not have gone to Petrograd in the hope that there would be an uprising in the cradle of the revolution, he would have understood this could not be.
    3. RUSS
      RUSS 16 February 2017 15: 56
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Denikin was an honest soldier, "hard worker", but with zero commander abilities

      How General Denikin resolved the issue with Chechnya
      http://russian7.ru/post/kak-general-denikin-resha
      l-vopros-s-chech /
  5. Medium
    Medium 16 February 2017 14: 39
    +5
    As usual recently, any topic about the Civil War escalated into a dispute between the "bakers" and the "Bolsheviks".
    In this regard, I would like to discuss the question of such a plan. On the basis of what was born the point of view that you advocate? You worked in the archives, got acquainted with the primary sources, met with participants in the events. Moreover, it was not just with participants who twisted their tails in the wagon train, but who made decisions and implemented certain ideas, i.e. with INFORMATION.
    Then, on the basis of the analysis of this information and professional knowledge in a particular area, was the point of view formed?
    I think that there are none among the debaters. Each formed his point of view on the basis of ANYTHING READY-OPERATED POINT OF VIEW. Where does such peremptory come from?
    Who gave a guarantee that the information that a particular individual relied on was objective.
    Not to mention that objective information in terms of history must now be sought, like golden sand in tons of rock.
    The problem of amateurs in history is now more relevant than ever.
    Modern amateurs from history have become weapons of mass destruction, from which there is no salvation either to a scientist, or to a reader, or to a student. They can already be divided into several categories.
    The first is “innovative specialists,” striving to say a new word in science. As a rule, these are representatives of other sciences, to whom history seems to be very accessible and does not require serious preparation of discipline. Here you can discover something that did not dream of dozens of sages. Their works in most cases have a pseudo-patriotic orientation. Amateurs prove that the first people were Kazakhs, Russians, Ukrainians, etc. - depending on the nationality of the "researcher". What exactly they invented tools, tamed a horse, invented the alphabet ... And the "official science" in their eyes is corrupt, inert, far from the interests of the people.

    The second group is conspiracy theorists. They are firmly convinced of the existence of a secret government, a world behind the scenes, a Masonic conspiracy, an alien control of the historical process. It seems to them that all problems - poverty, corruption, lack of technological progress, cultural backwardness and much more - are caused by external influences, and not internal causes. It is easy to attribute all the troubles, say, of Russia to reptilians, which, under the guise of ordinary people, impede the development of spiritual civilization. Or see the origins of corruption in the country in a conspiracy of world backstage.

    The third group is sincerely eager to say their word in science. But the harm from them is no less. Why read books, sit in archives, search for data? After all, everything can be found on the Internet, which means that it is enough to read a couple of popular transcriptions of textbooks to think of yourself as a specialist and put forward a stunning theory. For example, the Sumerians were Kazakhs, or the Etruscans - Russians ... This niche is a good way to twist the pockets of gullible readers. Bookstore shelves are crammed with similar literature.

    We live in troubled times when people are looking for answers to the most important life questions. You can try to figure out the situation, try to change the existing situation, or you can blame everything on Masons or aliens and come to terms with reality. For the former, scientific analysis is important; for the latter, it is enough to come up with another myth to be forgotten.
    To solve the problem, it is necessary to raise the level of historical research. And here there are still many difficulties - from the political situation, the lack of necessary funds, the low quality of training of specialists to the elementary unwillingness to deal with difficult issues of scientific research. Then it is necessary to solve the problem of popularization of historical heritage - books, films, plays, museums. This direction is simply absent. And those works that do not stand up to criticism. A general improvement in the culture of the population is needed. The quality of education has fallen, cultural policy is very weak. The number of amateurs in the country has increased dramatically. And amateurs can not fight with amateurs. Therefore, one does not have to wait for quick positive changes.
    Therefore, grabbing a checker from its scabbard and chopping an opponent with arguments, it’s worth considering if the tip of your checker is not an absolute truth. Maybe the amateur worked.
    So, you see, it will be possible to end the Civil War, which has been going on for a hundred years already.
  6. MrK
    MrK 16 February 2017 20: 35
    +6
    Quote: RUSS
    Are you ready to become a victim of repression and red terror for the good of the Fatherland?


    DEAR RUSS. Repression has been at all times. Every felon sent to prison TODAY IS REPRESSION.
    The repressions against innocent people in falsified cases are terrible.

    And with regards to whether I am ready to become a victim of repression for the benefit of the fatherland, I do not want to be a victim of liberal repression for the sake of someone’s pockets full of dough.
    These liberal repressions from 90 to 2000 year destroyed in Russia about 10 million healthy russian men
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 16 February 2017 21: 58
      0
      Quote: mrark
      These liberal repressions from 90 to 2000 destroyed about 10 million healthy Russian men in Russia

      How? Specifically, where do the numbers come from? And what does “liberal repression” mean? What is this new joke then?
      1. Odysseus
        Odysseus 16 February 2017 23: 33
        +5
        Quote: RUSS
        How? Specifically, where do the numbers come from?

        In an elementary way. The natural population growth of the RSFSR in 1987 (the last year when the Soviet system was still functioning) was 988 thousand people, the population of the Russian Federation dying out in 1993 was 750 thousand people. That is, the difference in 1 million 712 thousand people And this is only for a year!
        So the gloom was mistaken only in one - he played down the losses. The real estimate is about 15-16 million prematurely dead or unborn in 10 years.
        These are Russian grandmothers poking around in garbage dumps, hard workers drinking too much or becoming homeless after privatization, young people sat on a needle, mothers who could not have children, etc.
        Quote: RUSS
        And what does “liberal repression” mean?

        This means that all these people fell victim to the socio-economic policies pursued in these years.
        1. RUSS
          RUSS 17 February 2017 10: 31
          +1
          Quote: Odyssey
          In an elementary way. The natural population growth of the RSFSR in 1987 (the last year when the Soviet system was still functioning)

          Problems with demographics began under the communists at sunset of the USSR.
          Quote: Odyssey
          , hard workers drunk or become homeless after privatization,

          "Village" has drunk and disappeared since the 60s.
          Quote: Odyssey
          prematurely dead or unborn

          Is that so? Someone shot?
          You write about the consequences that are inherent in dramatic changes, it happened everywhere and at all times. But only in the 90s no one was shot or punished.
          People did not have time and could not quickly reorganize and get used to the new realities, drunkenness, etc. from here, socialism relaxed people, they were torn from the "mother" from nursing and thrown into adulthood ...
          1. Odysseus
            Odysseus 17 February 2017 14: 00
            +3
            Quote: RUSS
            Problems with demography began under the communists at sunset of the USSR

            Deception. In addition to the natural problems associated with demographic losses from the Second World War, there were no “problems” with demography. After the demographic transition associated with urbanization, the population of the RSFSR (notice not only the USSR, but even specifically Russia) stabilized at approximately the same level, moreover, it showed trends towards increase.
            Pay attention to the following numbers - Natural increase the population of the RSFSR in 1970 - 772,5 thousand people, in the already mentioned 1987 - 988 thousand people. That is, for 17 years there has been no decline, on the contrary, the growth rate has increased. I will remind once again already in 1993 Russia dying out at a rate of 750 thousand people.
            This is called the genocide of the Russian people. And you if an accomplice in this genocide if you support it.
            Quote: RUSS
            "Village" has drunk and disappeared since the 60s.

            What does the village have to do with it? It's about workers. And as for the village, it’s also a deception. The number of rural residents in the RSFSR was really declining, but at a very slow pace - in 1979, 42 million people lived in the village, in 1989 -39 million. But the pace of production were growing . Another thing is that they did not grow at a high enough pace to ensure a rapidly growing standard of living for the whole people.
            But in the 90s there was a catastrophe. For example, the number of livestock in 1986 amounted to 59,6 million heads, but already in 2000-28 million heads. For comparison, in 1916, 33 million heads fell over 14 years. below the level of the Russian Empire !!!
            Quote: RUSS
            Is that so? Someone shot?

            Well, they were shot, and outside the law. I recall that the current political regime of the Russian Federation received power as a result of the armed coup in 1993 with the shooting of the legitimate government-Supreme Council. But the majority really died "on their own," that is, as a result of the elimination of their living conditions. This is the policy of genocide of their own people.
            But your interpretation of "repressions" is incomprehensible. By "Soviet repressions" is meant the enforcement of Article 58 of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR; if you follow the same logic, then by "repression" you can understand the use of any of the current articles of the Criminal Code. By the way, in the West they do this when they talk about "Putin’s repressions."
            Quote: RUSS
            socialism relaxed people, as if from a "mother"

            But this is absolutely true. Indeed, socialism is a system that is the native Mom for an honest working man.
  7. Nehist
    Nehist 16 February 2017 23: 48
    +1
    Nda !!! The battles of who is right and who is wrong in the civil war on the pages of VO are stunning !!! When will CA realize that there are no winners in the civil war ?! White, red, blue, green !!! Remember the phrase a simple peasant from a famous movie! And everything will fall into place! The majority of the population of then-Russia did not care who would rise in power for all the mess and uncertainty got. In reality, the white movement did not find a person capable of political dirty decisions. The red movement has such a person in stock. The leaders of the red movement were not afraid to go into shit and compromise with various forces safely then cutting them out. Since walking on corpses and throat in shit, this is the whole essence of politics, both external and internal!
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 17 February 2017 01: 28
      +3
      Quote: Medium
      So, you see, it will be possible to end the Civil War, which has been going on for a hundred years already.

      Quote: Nehist
      there are no winners in the civil war ?!


      Civil war is the most acute form of the class struggle between antagonistic classes, which began in society with the advent of private property and will cease with its complete destruction.
    2. avva2012
      avva2012 17 February 2017 04: 55
      +1
      Quote: Nehist “The leaders of the red movement were not afraid to go into shit and compromise with various forces safely then cutting them out. Since walking on corpses and throat in shit is the whole essence of politics, both external and internal!”
      belay Yes of course! It is the “leaders of the Reds" who promised the French that they would pay for everything they could, oil fields, railways ... Still, so little, the British, Germans, Japanese. A little bit. It was the Reds who told the Allies that they needed an occupation of the country from the outside in order to restore order, right? White they are so white ... laughing
      1. Nehist
        Nehist 17 February 2017 08: 50
        +1
        Do not pull phrases out of context !!! And yes the Brest peace was concluded with the Germans precisely by the Bolsheviks, having given a significant part of Russia. Which subsequently did not stop them from cutting out the same Germans from there. Yes, the whole story with the Makhnovist army also suggests that they compromised and promised a lot of things. And you can remember the FER ... That's why she and politics are in order to promise anything and to fulfill only when it is profitable.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 17 February 2017 09: 22
          0
          Do not pull phrases out of context !!! And yes the Brest peace was concluded with the Germans precisely by the Bolsheviks, having given a significant part of Russia.

          M.I. Kutuzov, in general, gave the French to Moscow and nothing. The order even has his name. About "Brest Peace" so many copies are broken that wow, wow, wow! Personally, my opinion, it was necessary to conclude it. The reasons are described by people whom I support and point of view.
          That's why she and politics in order to promise anything and to fulfill only when it is profitable.

          I absolutely agree with you. Here, only, with this your phrase of mine, I strongly disagree, "Really in white movement there was no person capable of political dirty decisions. At red movements such a person was available. Red movement leaders not afraid to get into shit".
          I didn’t take it out of the context, I just drew attention to your bias towards one of the parties to the conflict. In this regard, and highlighted the keywords.
          1. Nehist
            Nehist 17 February 2017 13: 42
            +1
            No bias. The Reds are a kind of collective image, because alongside the Bolsheviks there were Mensheviks and essays and anarchists and many others.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 17 February 2017 15: 30
              +1
              White, this is also a collective image. There were nationalists of various stripes, Urechilovites, monarchists, republicans, including future Nazis (a fascist union organized, in my opinion in Shanghai). In short, hell knows who. And, if you mean that this rabble could not find the Person, then I completely agree with you.
              You know, I have a collective image of the White Guard and consists of two roles, this is Roshchin from "Walking through the agony". As he said there, "crush it all b ..."? At the beginning. And Lieutenant Brusentsov from “Two Comrades Served,” then. In my opinion, there were the majority of such in the civil war. They had no idea! God forgive me, but what would they do with the country if they came to power ?!
        2. RUSS
          RUSS 17 February 2017 17: 38
          0
          Quote: Nehist
          Yes, the whole story with the Makhnovist army also suggests that they compromised and promised a lot of things.

          I don’t remember exactly Lenin’s quote about Makhno, something like this - “Makhno is the right passenger on our train, but at the next station we will drop him off”
  8. zoolu300
    zoolu300 17 February 2017 20: 48
    +3
    And the joke in the whole situation was that while several tens of thousands of white armies did everything to keep the Reds out of Crimea, at the same time almost several hundred thousand bankers, merchants, priests, manufacturers and other deputies who fled to Crimea from all over Russia, they did NOTHING to help the white army, which fought for them, preferring to "suddenly leave." So the citizens of the bunkhrust see the future. Your owners from the "oligarchy" of the Russian Federation, when it starts the second time, will do exactly the same.
  9. komradbuh
    komradbuh 22 February 2017 14: 57
    +1
    An article about the capture of Perekop, and how much demagoguery was poured off-topic, horror
  10. lan70
    lan70 April 22 2019 21: 42
    0
    And you can find out the source of the last photo - "naval guns at the position near the station. Taganash."
  11. lan70
    lan70 April 22 2019 23: 15
    0
    The Turkish rampart did not interrupt near the city of Perekop. Both the moat and the shaft stretched from Karkinitsky Bay to Sivash ...