Military Review

Will there be enough ammunition for war?

180
The presence of ammunition in sufficient quantities is the most important factor in the combat readiness of any army. This thought is so obvious that it does not need proof. Due to the fact that the rifle weapon is the most common type of weaponry, supplying the army with ammunition is one of the most important tasks in maintaining the combat readiness of the army in peacetime and in warfare in wartime. However, if we move from these obvious provisions to practical issues, then this important matter will begin with considerable difficulties accompanying the supply of armies from the moment when the firearm itself appeared, and especially since the appearance of the unitary cartridge.




As far as can be judged, the supply of small ammunition in Russia is not considered a particular problem. Sometimes they complain about the low quality of domestic cartridges, sometimes there are suggestions about improving production technology and updating the fleet of equipment of ammunition factories, but in general it is not considered that supplying a sufficient number of cartridges is somewhat difficult. In any case, in numerous discussions about small arms, and AK in particular, very often the idea is expressed that “the cartridges are full”, or that “we are supplying cartridges abroad with billions of pieces,” and this idea is presented as not requiring proof. My own point of view is that the problem of supplying cartridges not only exists, but is very acute.

What is the expense in wartime?

In the planning of the supply of ammunition, as evidenced by the experience of the interwar period between the First and Second World Wars, usually proceed from the estimated need for ammunition for a certain period of warfare: a month or a year. The figure of the need for ammunition could be obtained by calculation, that is, by determining the average consumption of ammunition in a combat operation of a unit, for example, a division, army or front in a certain period of time, or it could be derived from combat practice. Often, these calculations were combined, and the result of the calculation of the ammunition consumption was corrected by data from combat practice, which was most often done for large offensive military operations in which the ammunition consumption was above the average.

In the interwar period and during World War II, there were no particular problems in the calculations. The experience of the First World War and the experience of operations already carried out gave extensive statistics that could be used as a basis for calculations. In the course of the war, standards were developed for the supply of ammunition to troops.

The main problem in the current supply of ammunition is that neither the Soviet nor the Russian army did not have combat experience, allowing them to accurately estimate the need for ammunition during the fighting. First, after the war, a sharp change in the structure of small arms took place, and instead of a Mosin rifle, the Kalashnikov assault rifle became the main weapon. For this reason, the experience of the Great Patriotic War cannot be applied directly. Secondly, the Soviet Army has not waged large-scale wars involving millions of armies ever since. All wars were fought by relatively few contingents, and even the Afghan war was attended by the 40 Army, whose number at the peak in 1988 was 102,1 thousand, while the total number of the Soviet Army was 4,6 million.

But since it is necessary to make at least some assessment, it is necessary to use the data that is. Starting data will be the consumption of ammunition during the Afghan war, the fighting in which was very intense and included major offensive operations. Since the structure of the small arms of the Russian army is similar to the structure of small arms of the 40 Army, these data can be taken as a basis.

Of course, we are not spoiled by the statistics of production and consumption of cartridges. However, in Kazakhstan, during the discussion of the construction of the ammunition plant, some figures were mentioned. According to the former Minister of Defense of Kazakhstan, Army General Mukhtar Altynbayev, the Soviet contingent in Afghanistan spent about 300 million cartridges per month.

From here you can take this factor: the army in 100 thousands of people during the fighting spends 300 million cartridges per month, or 3,6 billion cartridges per year. This is a very rough estimate, but no other data has been published. Therefore, we will use them. So, if the Soviet Army would have entered a large-scale war, then its expenditure during the year of the war would have been 165,6 billion pieces of ammunition. The Russian army, which numbered a million in 2016 in a year, would have spent 36 billions of rounds in a year of war.

For comparison: during the entire Great Patriotic War 17 billion was spent cartridges. It is clearly seen how dramatically increased the need for ammunition with the transition to automatic weapons.

Consumption in peacetime

In addition to the consumption of ammunition during the war, there is also an expense in peacetime - for the needs of training personnel shooting. The more this expense, the better the skills of the fighters, which affects the fighting. For example, before the war in the USSR, a massive shooting training program was carried out with the award of the Voroshilovsky shooter badge, within which it was prepared from 6 to 9 million shooters according to various data, and the results were immediately noted by the Germans. With the first days of the war on the Eastern Front, losses from rifle-and-machine-gun fire sharply increased.

In the Soviet and the Russian army, there was very little ammunition for the practice of one arrow: three trial, three credits. For comparison: the standard "Voroshilovsky shooter" provided 3 test shots and 10 credits, excluding pre-training. Although in some units the ammunition was allocated much more, nevertheless, general rifle training was at a very low level, despite the fact that automatic weapons require more practice than a rifle. This had its reasons, as will be discussed below.

How many ammo needed to prepare the shooter? In general, the minimum consumption is 150 cartridges. Shooting a moving target requires the expenditure of 500 cartridges, and the skill of shooting on the move requires 1500 cartridges. Total: the average level of shooting training of each shooter would require 650 cartridges. Given the practice of firing bursts this figure can be increased to 1000 cartridges. Zinc on the soldier (1080 cartridges 5,45 mm) - this is the necessary expenditure of ammunition for training, providing good skills.

From this, it is not difficult to calculate that the conditional million people undergoing rifle training will spend 150 millions of ammunition for minimum training and 1 billion ammunition for intermediate level training for training. Another 13 million cartridges would be required to receive credit according to the standards of the Voroshilovsky shooter.

In the USSR, from 1932 to 1940 years, 750 thousands of people passed the standards of the Voroshilovsky shooter per year. Now there is no such thing in Russia, and shooting training is conducted in the army. Every year, about 300 thousands of draftees pass through the army (this was a call from 2011 onwards). To receive a test in the USSR, 9,75 million cartridges were spent per year. In Russia, the control shooting exercise No. 2 (2 UKS) provides for the consumption of 30-35 cartridges, but those who serve say that 12 cartridges are actually consumed. Total goes from the calculation of 12 cartridges 3,6 million cartridges, or, on the basis of 30 cartridges, - 9 million cartridges.

If the infantry training was conducted with the achievement of sustainable skills, then the expenditure of cartridges for training 300 thousands of people per year would be different: 45 million cartridges minimum and 300 million cartridges for the average level. Accordingly, for the same 8 years it would be possible to prepare 2,4 million people at a rate of up to 2,4 billion cartridges.

What are the ammunition production capacities and stocks in warehouses?


And now it is worthwhile to compare the obtained data on needs with the available capacities for the production of cartridges. Very little is known about this, but there are still some figures. The Soviet capacity at the end of 1980-s amounted to 6 billion cartridges per year. In order to provide the Soviet Army with a year of war, according to the above calculation of wartime needs, the cartridge industry should have worked without restoring 28 years.

This is the answer to the question of the miserable allocation of ammunition for infantry training in Soviet times. The reason is an extreme lack of production capacity, which is why the cartridge industry worked mainly at the warehouse, trying to form reserves at least for the 3-4 of the month of the war. At the same time, some of the cartridges still went to various military conflicts, to help allies in different countries (no data on these shipments are available, but they could reach significant values), which reduced the increase in stocks. For this simple reason, the army was allocated the very minimum of cartridges for rifle training, and for the same reason, the Soviet Union actively built ammunition factories from its allies, not only in the ATS countries. This is not from generosity, but from the fact that the possibilities of supplying allies with ammunition were extremely limited, and these supplies were made from military stocks.

In Russia, 6 cartridge plants remained. Exact data on the release of ammunition is not published. However, as stated by Viktor Yashkin, general director of the Barnaul Machine Tool Plant (which includes the Barnaul Cartridge Plant) in 2014, they had 420 million units per year, and in 2015 year they were going to get to 500 million units. In the absence of other data, it is necessary to assume that the rest of the cartridge plants have comparable capacity - about 500 million cartridges per year, which in total will give the release of 3 billion cartridges. To create reserves for the year of war, the Russian cartridge industry will have to work 12 for years.

It can be said that the stocks of stocks are hoo. Maybe. And maybe not. According to published data, about 2 billion of cartridges with a shelf life of more than 40 years (that is, 1976 of production year and older) are subject to disposal in the year. 2 billion cartridges - this is a third of the Soviet annual production. If in Russia there remain warehouses replenished in Soviet times with the same number of cartridges per year, then it can be calculated that 1976 billion of cartridges were received for future Russian warehouses from 1992 to 32.

And what, in the presence of 88% needs of the year of war? Do not rush to rejoice and rub your hands. Firstly, the arrival at the warehouses of ammunition during the years of the Afghan war was significantly less, due to the high consumption of ammunition in Afghanistan - 3,6 billion pieces a year. Since 1981, the battles have received a large scale and intensity, and in 1989 there was already a withdrawal of troops. Total 8 years of war. During this time, only about half of the current release could be sent to warehouses, up to 3 billion. Of these, the share of warehouses in the RSFSR accounted for a billion pieces. With this amendment to the warehouses could arrive 24 billion pieces of ammunition. Secondly, there was still a considerable expense during the Chechen war, at a time when ammunition factories sharply reduced output. It is difficult to estimate this expense, but I would accept the size of usable warehouse stocks of approximately 18-20 billion cartridges. That's enough for half a year of war.

It is also necessary to point out that the replenishment of warehouses after the disposal of old cartridges is set at least 1 billion rubles a year. If you take the purchase price in 8 rubles for a cartridge, then it is 125 million pieces. In this situation, warehouses are gradually becoming empty.

I take away all the accusations of inaccuracies and arbitrariness of assessments immediately, as I use extremely fragmentary data taken from open sources. I have no other data. As well as hopes that I will have those.

What are the conclusions?

With all the rough approximation of these assessments, the conclusions that seem plausible to me are as follows.

1. The available ammunition reserves will last for about half a year of a big war, in which the entire Russian army will take part.

2. The current production capacity of cartridges is extremely insufficient. Monthly military demand (3 billion pieces) Russian ammunition factories close for the year of operation. During the six months of the war, the factories will produce about 1,5 billion cartridges, possibly up to 2 billion units, if production is expanded, which will be spent in two weeks or so.

3. After the depletion of warehouses during the war (as well as the enemy can destroy part of the stock), an acute cartridge hunger will occur, completely uncovered by the current release. Under the conditions of ammunition famine, the Russian army will be able to fight unless special forces or airborne troops (250 million of the current monthly output can be distributed only between a few units, and these will, of course, be the most combat-ready units), while the rest of the army is in fact deprived of the opportunity to participate in battles

4. Although there are about 17 million AK in the warehouses, nevertheless, the arming of the mobilization contingent will be extremely difficult due to the lack of ammunition. One ammunition (250 cartridges) for this stock of machine guns will be 4,2 billion cartridges, from which it is clear that in terms of cartridge hunger, these machines simply will not have ammunition.

5. From the previous paragraph it follows that mass mobilization is impossible in the current state of the cartridge economy. Command can only rely on those who already serve in the armed forces, and on small contingents to replace those who have left or killed by wounds. The rest can not be armed. Or, allocating ammunition for 30 cartridges per barrel, use part of the AK stock (the ammunition of one million units will be 30 million cartridges), but in this case the Kalashnikov machine gun cannot be used for automatic firing and it will essentially turn into a self-loading carbine .

6. Finally, it is clear that the cartridge issue exists, it is very acute, and needs a speedy solution, providing for a sharp increase in the release of cartridges. Or you can be defeated in any major war that goes beyond a local armed conflict.
Author:
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  1. Rus2012
    Rus2012 30 January 2017 15: 19
    +7
    Quote: Author Dmitry Verkhoturov
    .... the cartridge issue exists, it is very acute, and needs a speedy solution, providing for a sharp increase in the production of cartridges.

    ... according to tiny information from the media: there is no doubt! And it’s not good for AK type, but also for some other nomenclature.
    To the extent that part of the ammunition is purchased from the Chinese.
    It is likely that cooperation will be created ...

    PS: the illustrations show a picture with blank cartridges ...
    1. g1v2
      g1v2 30 January 2017 15: 31
      +13
      Well, there is also the Lugansk cartridge plant. wink But in general, the situation when, according to statistics, up to 200 THOUSAND rounds of ammunition is spent on the defeat of one enemy fighter, is clearly not normal. You need to either switch to high-precision ammunition, increase the aiming of shooting, or even try to switch to other models of enemy destruction. How much can a fighter take on his bk? Minutes for 15 tight bouts. Well? This is clearly not normal. hi
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 30 January 2017 16: 05
        +2
        15 stores on the machine - I think I can carry it away.
        1. your1970
          your1970 30 January 2017 16: 55
          +12
          the question is not this, the question is different:
          1) for what wars will we need an army of more than a million?
          2) with which opponent?
          3) for what purpose?

          1) If this is a small-scale war (such as the CTO in Chechnya), then we don’t need a million army and a billion rounds of ammunition. If this is large-scale, then we go to step 2.
          2) If this is a war with NATO / USA, then everything is clear: nuclear weapons. If this is China-NW without options, we will not stop them with the tenth millionth army - they will really stupidly crush meat. If they are terrorists, then a millionth army is not needed, we need specialists with narrow profiles for sawing with a jigsaw and relatively few. If this is Turkey / Ukraine / Poles, etc. sub-intakes - in this case, if for some reason we don’t use nuclear weapons, we may need a millionth army and billions of rounds of ammunition. This is the only case when large stocks are critical.
          3) the goal: 1) to hit the teeth to the death- nuclear weapons, 2) to occupy the countries around us at the moment that would make sense to occupy in the scale of geopolitics in the distant future - at the moment we do not need ... At least for a reason the fact that we are not pulling the occupation economically now ...

          Z.Y. Afghanistan in terms of ammunition consumption is not an absolute indicator - if they opened a box / zinc, then these cartridges were immediately considered destroyed / spent. In addition, the ammunition trade was really going on, I don’t remember the price, but they sold everything ...
          1. To be or not to be
            To be or not to be 30 January 2017 17: 51
            +1
            http://static.kremlin.ru/media/events/files/41d52
            7556bec8deb3530.pdf
            On December 25, 2014, President Putin approved the new version of the military doctrine of the Russian Federation,
          2. Keeper
            Keeper 30 January 2017 19: 10
            +17
            Yes, only 1 million soldiers are already needed to protect the borders of the Russian Federation, and half of the borders are not guarded by Vova Putin, including the border with Kazakhstan, through which all rubbish goes to Russia and carries all kinds of rubbish, from terrorists to couriers with drugs
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 30 January 2017 19: 45
              0
              Quote: Pfleger
              Yes, only 1 million soldiers are needed to protect the borders of the Russian Federation

              Well, where do you get them? From the moon?
              1. Keeper
                Keeper 30 January 2017 19: 49
                +9
                I will not hire Tajiks. I would have found the president of the Russian Federation, but I’m not looking for Vova.
                1. Nikolaevich I
                  Nikolaevich I 31 January 2017 02: 35
                  +8
                  Pfleger! Open your face! FULL NAME. etc ! I will vote for you at the pre-presidential election!
              2. megavolt823
                megavolt823 4 February 2017 10: 41
                0
                to protect the borders you need a desire. and there is still expediency. and of course, political correctness. if you pull the troops to the border with the Kazakhs and tightly tighten the nuts to the borders, you can see and there embroideries will begin to sew. border security needs to be worked out. and the main trade in various grays and drugs, not through the forest in the suit of the devil. for rollback and bribe, they will be driven on internal roads and will be taken. trains and planes. hi
                1. Keeper
                  Keeper 6 February 2017 01: 09
                  0
                  Embroideries there have long been in fashion, because the number of Russians is declining there, but people like you do not want to notice this.
                  1. megavolt823
                    megavolt823 6 February 2017 02: 39
                    0
                    the thought is ahead of the leg
                    Quote: Pfleger
                    but people like you don’t want to notice it
                    which ones? one can answer such an attack: because of people like you they sew them even faster. you need to find out why they are going. and not bear heresy. at the end of the 80x and the beginning of the 90x in the republics the truth was terrible. what they don’t want to remember now. Now not everything is the same everywhere. cockroaches are running around. judging even from the comment above. and with us too. hi
            2. your1970
              your1970 30 January 2017 21: 12
              +9
              1 million soldier is about 1,8 million army. The current one has not completely switched to new equipment (they don’t have time to release it) - but do you still want to make a fool?
              And about the border with Kazakhstan is not necessary - the border guards are quite coping.
              By the way, where else is "half of the borders not guarded" - do not tell me where we have no border troops?
              Z.Y. “I would have found the president of the Russian Federation” - I would, frankly, have entrusted you with a maximum watchman position, no more, and then at a not very important facility ....
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. your1970
                  your1970 31 January 2017 08: 12
                  +3
                  1) You did not answer my question about unguarded borders.
                  2) judging by your nervous reaction, you can be appointed as a guard at an object no more serious than a warehouse with firewood, no more ....
                  1. Charond
                    Charond 31 January 2017 11: 17
                    +3
                    That's how smart you are. '' Why Russia does not live like Switzerland, with such a smart leadership like you ?! Maybe you are not so smart, or you should look for another people for yourself, since the people of Russia are so bad and unable to live, as in Switzerland, under such supposedly wise, your leadership, and gentlemen, the leaders of the leader, with Ponte ?!
                    1. Kasym
                      Kasym 31 January 2017 13: 10
                      +4
                      If I remember, then the tobacco was dual-use - they could make cartridges. How is it interesting now? Philip Maurice was sold a tobacco to us and ... recently grabbed (how it started in Ukraine). Now they started to build a new one, with Canadians. hi
              2. Black5Raven
                Black5Raven 21 March 2017 21: 35
                0
                The Russian Federation takes the "honorable" second place in the number of illegal immigrants, and there is also a flow of drugs across the southern borders. In the east - synthetic from Asia. I would not say that the border guards are coping.
          3. Dart2027
            Dart2027 30 January 2017 19: 47
            +2
            Quote: your1970
            for which wars will we need an army of more than a million?

            For local wars and the protection of their territory. There will really be no full-scale in the spirit of the Second World War, but in the near abroad everything can be. Another thing is that trying to create an army of 3-5 million is really too much.
        2. Walking
          Walking 30 January 2017 17: 05
          +6
          When entering combat, he wore 10 stores equipped + 1500 rounds in packs in the taxiway.
        3. 181msp
          181msp 30 January 2017 18: 12
          +22
          15 stores will not be able to. From my own Afghan experience, I can say that it is in the version of 15 equipped stores that it will not be able to. And if we are talking specifically about shops, then directly in the machine one or for lovers two stores connected by electrical tape + 3-4 in a bra or 4 in body armor is the maximum that we carried with us. Moreover, the owner of an assault rifle with two, and sometimes even three shops, strapped with electrical tape, was always accurately identified by a fighter from a mountain motorized rifle battalion as a casual person in combat. We called these "fighters" :)
          As a rule, I had one horn for 30 rounds in a machine gun, another three equipped magazines in a bra + six more cartridges with cartridges were placed in the same place. The main personal supply of cartridges was carried in a backpack without zinc, without paper, tightly packed in a dense plastic bag from under drunk rolls or something like that. There was a well-developed skill to quickly re-equip a store with clips and adapters. So, believe me, but an abundance of shops for a trained fighter is completely useless.
          1. Monarchist
            Monarchist 30 January 2017 19: 02
            +6
            The former neighbor was in the second Chechen, he told. Usually worn: 4 "jacks" ie 8 stores + 1V AK.
          2. Keeper
            Keeper 30 January 2017 19: 07
            +7
            Well, you’re our action movie. And in Afghanistan he was also versed in the navy, well, just a child prodigy. But here, almost the entire platoon, we wore stores connected with electrical tape, one connected to the machine gun and another 4 in home-made ,, bras '', and grenades, from 3 to 6 pcs.
          3. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 30 January 2017 23: 12
            +1
            Quote: 181msp
            And if we are talking specifically about shops, then directly in the machine one or for lovers two stores connected by electrical tape + 3-4 in a bra or 4 in body armor is the maximum that we carried with us.

            Recall everything, thank you. , Bacha. soldier
          4. Landing Station6
            Landing Station6 31 January 2017 10: 53
            +3
            drunk roll bag

            As if the smell of these loaves felt!
          5. Pulya
            Pulya 31 January 2017 15: 35
            0
            181msp --- "horn" !!!!!!
            Pretty laugh :)
        4. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 30 January 2017 23: 29
          +6
          Quote: Vadim237
          15 stores on the machine - I think I can carry it away.

          Interesno, how so? This current terminatorrr could wassat
          The experience transferred from the "grandfathers" was confirmed by practice: 1-sided, 4-in a bra, the rest loose, worn to someone like a slave, but mainly in the RD, individual individuals and pockets were stuffed, two were wound with electrical tape, but this was all over the place.

          Threat. Lecture in the training.
          You’re not alone, the AK is with you, which means you are already two, there are 30 more friends in the store, total 32.
          a full platoon is obtained! yes wink
          Something like this.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 31 January 2017 00: 10
            0
            You can put 35 into the tactical backpack for 12 liters of stores - the rest is unloaded.
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 31 January 2017 00: 19
              +4
              Quote: Vadim237
              You can put 35 into the tactical backpack for 12 liters of stores - the rest is unloaded.

              What's the point? There is another circumstance, what kind of battles are being fought.
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 31 January 2017 10: 24
                +1
                In any battle - the more ammunition you have, the better, and the backpack can be dropped.
                1. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 31 January 2017 12: 12
                  +3
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  In any battle - the more ammunition you have, the better

                  Do you have any idea how much stuff you need to put on a hump if the group is walking, for example, in the mountains for five days?
                  Or another option for the operator = cmyas are held as part of a company or baht, then there is a support platoon.
                  Do you feel the difference?
      2. UVB
        UVB 30 January 2017 16: 50
        +10
        Quote: g1v2
        Well, there is also the Lugansk cartridge plant.

        Which, incidentally, was the only one in b. Ukraine. The plant continues to work now.
      3. Kolyan 2
        Kolyan 2 30 January 2017 18: 17
        +6
        In the second Chechen one they dragged 3 B / K 1300-1400 (1 B / K 450) on the hump and, according to statistics, 1 cartridges went out for 13.500 darling (B / K himself carried it, but we were told about the cartridges) hi
      4. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 30 January 2017 23: 31
        +6
        Quote: g1v2
        But in general, the situation when, according to statistics, up to 200 THOUSAND rounds of ammunition is spent on the defeat of one enemy fighter, is clearly not normal.

        Do not run from the sniper, you will die tired! laughing
    2. 181msp
      181msp 30 January 2017 18: 14
      +4
      To the extent that part of the ammunition is purchased from the Chinese.


      Can you confirm your words with a reference to a specific fact of purchase? Or indicate the primary sources of their allegations?
      1. Usher
        Usher 30 January 2017 19: 14
        +1
        And the main thing for liberists is to throw
    3. revnagan
      revnagan 30 January 2017 21: 16
      +1
      Not with single, but with educational. ZY. yes
    4. volan
      volan 30 January 2017 21: 35
      +1
      with training ...
    5. Akuzenka
      Akuzenka 31 January 2017 16: 32
      0
      I agree. But these are not blank cartridges, but an imitation. Bullets in place, capsules punched.
    6. Che burashka
      Che burashka 31 January 2017 19: 03
      0
      Quote: Rus2012
      PS: the illustrations show a picture with blank cartridges ...

      Not really, with training hi
    7. Evgenii Xolod
      Evgenii Xolod 28 February 2017 12: 39
      0
      And I thought in general a dummy, the capsules are chopped ......
  2. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah 30 January 2017 15: 19
    +1
    Do not forget how much the warehouse manager and the foreman drink and sell! It all depends on their appetite!
    1. Rus2012
      Rus2012 30 January 2017 15: 23
      +8
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      warehouse manager and foreman

      these goods-LOOKING will not take much on themselves ...
      Much worse is the regular "fire" of the kakbE "with the destruction" of empty places ...
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 30 January 2017 17: 30
        +5
        Quote: Rus2012
        these goods-LOOKING will not take much on themselves ...

        But do not underestimate the heads of warehouses. smile At our brothers in the city of Nikolaev from a warehouse of a local port 25 (twenty five million!) Rounds of vapor evaporated in an unknown direction.
        As the press service of the General Prosecutor’s Office of Ukraine reports, as a result of the careless attitude of former senior officials of the Ministry of Defense from 2000 to the present time, 50 million rounds of 7,62 rounds of ammunition were stored in the Oktyabrsk port without proper accounting, security and regime, which state-owned company Ukrspetsexport intended for sale in one of the African countries. However, in connection with the imposition of an embargo on exports, cartridges were not implemented. Later, officials of the Ministry of Defense did not return these state cartridges to the owner, and all accounting and reporting documents that could indicate that the ammunition belonged to the defense department were destroyed, the cartridges themselves were removed from the register.

        "During the inventory of these weapons, only half of their original quantity was recorded. Any data on the whereabouts of the remaining cartridges are missing. Thus, the state suffered damage in the amount of about 16 million hryvnias," the Prosecutor General noted.

        In addition, in the open areas of the same seaport, more than 14 thousand unaccounted for ammunition boxes of various calibers were discovered, which arrived from the military units of the Ministry of Defense in 1992, and which were not sold, and over 22 years of storage in unsuitable conditions were significantly damaged.
    2. 181msp
      181msp 30 January 2017 18: 17
      +9
      I have never seen such fool elders and warehouse managers in Sovetskaya. and then in the Russian army to drink ammunition. For one cartridge, it was possible with the help of the military prosecutor's office to seriously spoil your biography, and only to stupidly drink your freedom?
      Although maybe you are just from this category ... And who knows what else you can come up with!
      1. your1970
        your1970 30 January 2017 18: 30
        +4
        Quote: 181msp
        I have never seen such fool elders

        Yes, there were, alas, the heads of the warehouses and the heads of the RAB services. They didn’t drink, but simply sell. Our aggressors in 1995-98 almost every week carried out an inventory of weapons - for information came from the district - what was stolen there was stolen, and therefore to take an inventory.

        Z.Y. I also ate drunken rolls - though in KTurkVO (in Kushka)drinks soldier
  3. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah 30 January 2017 15: 26
    +1
    Quote: Rus2012
    Quote: Mar. Tira
    warehouse manager and foreman

    these goods-LOOKING will not take much on themselves ...
    Much worse is the regular "fire" of the kakbE "with the destruction" of empty places ...

    I wanted to continue the comment in your words, but modestly. You continued! soldier
  4. Antony
    Antony 30 January 2017 15: 32
    +8
    Something I did not understand, if per 100 thousand people. If you need 300 million cartridges per month, then this is 30000 for each? 33 stores a day? so there will not be enough cartridges, but machine guns.
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 30 January 2017 15: 57
      +8
      on 100 thousand people do you need 300 million cartridges per month, is that 30000 for each? 33 stores per day

      actually, 300 million divided by 100 thousand will be 3 000. And this is 100 stores per month, 3 stores per day.
      1. Antony
        Antony 30 January 2017 17: 28
        +2
        Opa ((wrong, sorry
    2. 97110
      97110 30 January 2017 18: 39
      +6
      Quote: Antony
      Something I did not understand, if per 100 thousand people. need to

      It’s always like this: only a person will build a coherent theory that requires urgent intervention by the President personally and the most energetic deputies of the Sovereign Duma, there will be a gloomy arithmetic and will break a coherent theory.
  5. Niccola Mack
    Niccola Mack 30 January 2017 15: 39
    +14
    According to the ex-Minister of Defense of Kazakhstan, Army General Mukhtar Altynbaev, the Soviet contingent in Afghanistan spent about 300 million cartridges per month.
    From here, one can take the following coefficient: an army of 100 thousand people during the hostilities spends 300 million pieces of cartridges per month, or 3,6 billion pieces of cartridges per year.

    Some unrealistic figures from a "super reliable source"! The earth is in which direction.
    Firstly, after the war, there was a sharp change in the structure of small arms, and instead of the Mosin rifle, the Kalashnikov rifle became the main weapon.

    The author somewhere "buried" SVT - more than 1,5 million pieces (produced before the end of the war), Degtyarev machine guns - infantry and tank, Maxim, and most importantly more than 6 million pieces of PPD, PPSh, PPS - the main consumers of cartridges. The Red Army remained again with one "mosinka" against the "automatic" Wehrmacht.
    And all this shot in just 5 years 17 billion, but if the PPS were replaced by Kalashnikov, then the SA would have shot 176 billion in a year.
    How to put it so gently - more than doubtful!
    1. Akuzenka
      Akuzenka 31 January 2017 16: 34
      0
      You still forgot ABC, also contributed.
  6. tracer
    tracer 30 January 2017 15: 42
    0
    As in the photo training enough for sure. Such fighting is not recommended ..
  7. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 30 January 2017 15: 57
    0
    Still to know what this is the same "Big War".
    If as usual, then there will be ammo, but gunpowder may not be enough.
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 30 January 2017 19: 15
      +1
      At the beginning of the Second World War, there were about 10 rounds of rifle per soldier, but I heard the elderly. By the spring of 1942, we lacked gunpowder and imported it from America.
  8. Glory1974
    Glory1974 30 January 2017 16: 00
    0
    How many rounds do you need to train a shooter?


    Where does the data come from? Calculated independently, according to guidance documents or 3P (floor, finger, ceiling)?
  9. Editor
    Editor 30 January 2017 16: 09
    +1
    why do specialists still fight with fronts, frontal tank strikes, etc. For a long time, wars have been going on with the help of checkpoints and sabotage and sniper groups.
    as you read the messages - the detachment was ambushed - 2 injured, 2 killed. (probably killed by a sniper, wounded in a land mine)
  10. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 30 January 2017 16: 12
    +9
    The whole article is sucked out of the finger. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation makes and launches "Caliber", but they don’t know about such a "trifle" as making cartridges for modern small arms !!! Can an author be promoted to deputy defense minister for procurement?
    1. Oznob
      Oznob 30 January 2017 16: 53
      +4
      He only voiced his thoughts on patrons of art, they also like to eat art systems. By the way, in the First World, our great-grandfathers sucked because of an insufficient supply of ammunition. Offhand I will not say where the firewood came from, I read it for a long time.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 30 January 2017 21: 51
        +2
        The author voiced the idea, but somehow did not voiced the production capacity of not peacetime, but wartime. Given the mobilization of production.
        1. mamuka
          mamuka 1 February 2017 19: 57
          0
          it’s not a fact that in wartime, production will increase - bombing, evacuation ... another question is whether the pace of peacetime would be maintained. in 1942 it was possible to hide factories near the Urals where enemy planes would not fly, now with the delivery of explosives it’s easier
          Quote: abrakadabre
          The author voiced the idea, but somehow did not voiced the production capacity of not peacetime, but wartime. Given the mobilization of production.
  11. Oriental express
    Oriental express 30 January 2017 16: 25
    +8
    There are a lot of questions in Russia, but so far all the money will be spent on ruble booze they will not be resolved.
    1. ADmA_RUS
      ADmA_RUS 30 January 2017 16: 28
      +4
      1. Is everything straight?
      2. Have you already written a statement to the prosecutor?
      1. Oriental express
        Oriental express 30 January 2017 16: 34
        +18
        I have seen enough of the colonels on Mercedes, which they would never have bought if they hadn’t stolen, but lived on their salaries and yachts of all kinds of Chubaisoids, which in terms of quantity and displacement have long surpassed the Baltic Fleet of the Russian Federation. If Messrs. Putinists do not stop the feast during the plague, then let them not whine that the people do not see the difference between them and the invaders. And the commies have already fought with one rifle for three, as a result, all the battles of 1941-42 were lost, and the Russian Federation no longer has the USSR human resources and with your policy of replacing the indigenous population of the Russian Federation with Gaster, the population of the Russian Federation will only decrease all the time.
        1. ADmA_RUS
          ADmA_RUS 30 January 2017 17: 15
          +10
          1. Who gave you a mondat to talk about the faces of the people?
          2. In 1941, no one fought with one rifle for three.
          3. Visitors are not my policy. These are objective processes.
          4. Wang? How do you know how the population will change. And the most important thing. What is your personal contribution to population growth?
          1. Oriental express
            Oriental express 30 January 2017 18: 19
            +11
            1) And who gave you the right to speak on behalf of the people, if the people do not go to your elections because they do not believe in their honesty, you removed the candidate “against all”, and a number of parties have been banned, although it’s time for you to ban it yourself ?! 2) It was necessary to learn, and not to suppress beer on Rublevka! 3) Visitors is a policy of the Kremlin, which, making favorable conditions for hucksters, has long put a well-known three-letter device on the indigenous population of the Russian Federation! 4) And so it is clear how the population of the Russian Federation will change, because of your policy, it is constantly decreasing.
        2. Alikos
          Alikos 30 January 2017 17: 47
          +5
          Quote: Oriental Express
          I have seen enough of the colonels on Mercedes, which they would never have bought if they hadn’t stolen, but lived on their salaries and yachts of all kinds of Chubaisoids, which in terms of quantity and displacement have long surpassed the Baltic Fleet of the Russian Federation. If Messrs. Putinists do not stop the feast during the plague, then let them not whine that the people do not see the difference between them and the invaders. And the commies have already fought with one rifle for three, as a result, all the battles of 1941-42 were lost, and the Russian Federation no longer has the USSR human resources and with your policy of replacing the indigenous population of the Russian Federation with Gaster, the population of the Russian Federation will only decrease all the time.

          And for a long time the feeling that the authorities are happy about the extinction of the native Russians and in the plans for their use of Asians who need a bowl of rice per day
          1. Oriental express
            Oriental express 30 January 2017 18: 21
            +5
            The time will come when these Asians will establish their government, and all these Yeltsinoids will be killed as blacks by white farmers in South Africa. The Yeltsins have already received Austrian citizenship and are not going to live in the Russian Federation, and we still have a look at where their six are planning to run and who needs them there!
            1. your1970
              your1970 30 January 2017 18: 37
              +2
              a year and a half already the outflow of migrants EXCEEDS the influx - reliable information was voiced at the last meetings of the FMS before liquidation.
              The explanation is simple - there is no money at construction sites, they put things in order with the documents, the dollar exchange rate is also unprofitable, the population also has less money for co-workers, competition and crowding out more or less paid work by the local until the massacre inclusive ...
              1. Keeper
                Keeper 30 January 2017 19: 14
                +9
                Judging by what I see in Moscow, there are only more Gaster and how they traded drugs and engaged in banditry, they continue, and your construction projects both worked and still work, even in the provinces. It is possible to refuse to buy a car, but not to buy an apartment, because you need to live somewhere.
                1. your1970
                  your1970 30 January 2017 21: 07
                  +1
                  judging by what I see living on the border, they leave and a lot, buses go from Russia ...
                  everyone who doesn’t receive a salary in Moscow gets to buy an apartment; at a salary of 20, paying a mortgage of 15 is nonsense ... They don’t take built housing ...
                  1. Keeper
                    Keeper 30 January 2017 22: 09
                    +6
                    Only officials and mafiosi could buy housing for their salaries before, which, on the whole, is not far from each other. ,, Surprised ... '' However, housing is being built and sold, and there are a bunch of Gaster at any station, they have flooded entire areas, not the country, but the entrance yard.
                2. bk316
                  bk316 30 January 2017 21: 09
                  +7
                  Muscovite or Gaster himself?
                  Although soon from the ruins. So for reference, so as not to be scorched, it is not customary for the President of the Russian Federation to call Vova VO.
                  1. your1970
                    your1970 30 January 2017 21: 14
                    +1
                    I have a feeling that in Moscow he was passing ...
                  2. Keeper
                    Keeper 30 January 2017 22: 11
                    +5
                    If you have been gulbling around London for a long time and did not understand how much, then in the Russian Federation not all members of the Vova party and not everyone likes you here ...
                    1. bk316
                      bk316 30 January 2017 22: 22
                      +5
                      Judging by your registration date, whoever you like here is not known to you, and if the cons had not been canceled, it would have been gray.
                      1. Keeper
                        Keeper 30 January 2017 23: 11
                        +7
                        Cons and pros are of interest only to couch warriors, and this site, even if it’s yours personally, is far from the whole of Russia. How many active users are there? Thousand?! Three thousand?! Subtracting clones from them will turn out two to three times less. That's the price of all your show-offs.
                    2. Akuzenka
                      Akuzenka 31 January 2017 16: 39
                      0
                      Amendment, GDP has no party. And the one that was like him, now a bear. Read, at least occasionally, official information.
        3. 181msp
          181msp 30 January 2017 18: 21
          +6
          Judging by the nonsense that you write here, Oriental Express, you are a liberal-humanist who is offended by life, and who still studied poorly in high school
          1. Oriental express
            Oriental express 30 January 2017 18: 25
            +5
            Here's how ?! Go to the army! And how to serve, so you are all disabled and have musical talents, you can only steal and wipe your pants around the cabinets and you can! I’ll see how you and your Putin will defend Kaliningrad and the Kuril Islands, and merge, there will be “thanks” to you, like Nikolashka ... He also drank the whole country at balls with French girls and his relatives!
          2. bk316
            bk316 30 January 2017 21: 10
            +5
            you resentful liberal humanist yes

            One hundred percent to the point.
            1. Keeper
              Keeper 30 January 2017 22: 13
              +6
              And you are a satisfied inhabitant of Rublevka, and don’t make a surprised face from the fact that there is Russia that doesn’t love you ... There is life beyond MKAD if you forgot ...
        4. Suhow
          Suhow 1 February 2017 01: 25
          0
          the communists also went on the attack like all three on the trunk, and there was more demand from them, so there was nothing to blame them ... and your democrats are no better, but times are different.
        5. Comrade Stalin
          Comrade Stalin 1 February 2017 10: 14
          0
          Again the tales of liberoid hestorics about one rifle for three. Already in what, but the Red Army has never experienced a shortage of small arms. Over the 4 years of the war, 12 million Mosin rifles, 6 million PPSh, 500 thousand PPS and 700 thousand machine guns DP were produced. Izhevsk arms factory produced 10-12 thousand rifles per day, that is, every day it was possible to arm the division, and even it would remain. But just when the Tsar rag and fought with one rifle for two. Over the 4 years of the war, 3,3 million rifles and 27,5 thousand Maxim machine guns were produced. The numbers are simply not comparable.
          1. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 1 February 2017 14: 11
            +1
            Quote: Comrade_Stalin
            Again the tales of liberoid hestorics about one rifle for three. Already in what, but the Red Army has never experienced a shortage of small arms. For 4 years of the war, 12 million Mosin rifles were produced,


            This is not a fairy tale.
            Specifically, my grandfather in July 1941 near Smolensk entered the battle without a rifle, since he got one for three and not him.
            The result is predictable - a part is defeated, those who were not killed, they were captured.
          2. mamuka
            mamuka 1 February 2017 20: 03
            0
            it is not enough to produce rifles - you need them to be delivered to all the places where they need them. that's just the logistics in 41-42 there were big problems
    2. 181msp
      181msp 30 January 2017 18: 19
      +3
      And who is drinking on Rublevka with all the Russian money? Full name of a drunkard and specific places-dates of a drunkard can you indicate? Or out of habit, as always, suck everything out of your finger?
      1. Keeper
        Keeper 30 January 2017 19: 16
        +6
        The list can be started with the daughter of EBN. For her, laws have not been written in Russia for a long time, and today she is your Austrian citizen.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 31 January 2017 00: 22
          +1
          “The list can be started with the daughter of EBN. For her, laws have not been written in Russia for a long time and today she is an Austrian citizen of you.” - And what side does it belong to the booze on Rublevka?
  12. nnz226
    nnz226 30 January 2017 16: 37
    0
    And what about shells, mines (mortars), and especially with guided missile weapons? How many “calibers” are in service? If you know the number of Tomahawks ...
  13. CYBERNINJA
    CYBERNINJA 30 January 2017 16: 38
    +2
    Along the way, the author of the article, in the army, of course, if he was of course, was not allowed to guard the warehouses ... Hence his knowledge of the ammunition stocks in the Russian Federation.
  14. aleks700
    aleks700 30 January 2017 16: 55
    +2
    1. Available stocks of ammunition will last for about six months of the great war, in which the entire Russian army will take part
    The whole million military motorized rifle? Third. So the cartridges should be enough for at least a year. With whom to fight the whole year? USA? There 2-3day maximum until we erase one another from the face of the earth. With china? With Ukraine? Well, even APU ammunition is enough. In general, there are not many rounds.
    1. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 30 January 2017 22: 19
      +2
      Motorized rifle rather a third of a third. After all, NE is about a third of the armed forces.
  15. parafoiler
    parafoiler 30 January 2017 17: 11
    +2
    Why, photographs of live ammunition was not fate to find ?! Put emasculated training. Not comme il faut!
  16. Speedy
    Speedy 30 January 2017 17: 11
    +5
    From the author’s words it turns out that in the event of a conflict, everything, whether it’s a missile, submariner, pilot, railwayman, etc. must shoot 90 rounds a day. In my opinion, firearms from the 19th century are not the main factor in the database and will not be. And the so-called proxy wars of our time are carried out in smaller numbers and are also saturated primarily with heavier weapons than a rifle, ATGM, rocket launchers, KK machine guns, armored vehicles in the end. At a distance of effective fire of small arms, pull out your people, this is already an oversight or a command error. In theory, only stripping and the last frontier of defense, well, also direct protection - the scope of use of small arms in the army.
    1. cap
      cap 30 January 2017 19: 42
      +2
      Quote: Sorrow
      And the so-called proxy wars of our time are carried out in smaller numbers and are also saturated primarily with heavier weapons than a rifle, ATGM, rocket launchers, KK machine guns, armored vehicles in the end. At a distance of effective fire of small arms, pull out your people, this is already an oversight or a command error. In theory, only stripping and the last frontier of defense, well, also direct protection - the scope of use of small arms in the army.


      Your opinion is more correct than the "calculations" of the author. See my comment below.
  17. sub307
    sub307 30 January 2017 17: 57
    +2
    Quote: Alexey-74
    The whole article is sucked out of the finger. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation makes and launches "Caliber", but they don’t know about such a "trifle" as making cartridges for modern small arms !!! Can an author be promoted to deputy defense minister for procurement?

    I agree with you, an absolutely contrived little article .... "Mentally talk on the couch" about what kind of "hunger" will overtake us in the case, "God forbid," real large-scale military operations: cartridge, shell, aircraft, tank, etc. D. - a very "ungrateful" occupation for the scale of the article, and the "brains of the author" too. With a more or less serious "study" of the issue, it will be necessary to take into account so many "incoming" factors, conditions and "coefficients" in paper form as a kind of "multivolume" of pages of 500 each "volume". As a rule, looking at history, I come to a “simple" conclusion: none of the sides of the confrontation is ready for all these actions by 100% by the beginning of hostilities, provided the initial infrastructure is not the moment the beginning of these same battles already with the beginning of the BD, these very conditions will begin to change with a frantic speed in accordance with the results of the exchange of mutual blows.
  18. Disorder
    Disorder 30 January 2017 18: 01
    +5
    Adept of submachine guns does not calm down.
    Peacetime and wartime production are two big differences. Russia supplies around the world not only combat, but also hunting cartridges. And what: during the war will the hunting cartridges continue to chase and, together with the military, be sold abroad?
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 30 January 2017 19: 44
      +3
      Adept of submachine guns does not calm down.


      In the second part of the article will be the calculation of cartridges for submachine guns. And since they have more consumption, there will be enough cartridges for 1 day. Conclusion: submachine guns are not needed.
      Voila, the circle has closed.
    2. wehr
      30 January 2017 22: 44
      +1
      I will quote myself (by the way, from the response to your comment) laughing
      In 2013, the Russian ammunition factories signed a number of contracts for the supply of 900 million cartridges to the USA. This is 80% of export. Cartridges 7.62 of model 1943 of the year (for AK) and 9x18 Parabellum are sold. Moreover, judging by the fact that the Ulyanovsk Cartridge Factory sells several tens of millions of 7.62 mm cartridges, we are talking about multi-year contracts.


      A small export is obtained, the cartridge hunger does not quench.
      1. Disorder
        Disorder 31 January 2017 03: 37
        +1
        fool Firstly. Peacetime and wartime production sharply differ in production volumes.
        Secondly. No one will give you complete information on the supply to our army and the army of states armed with AK. What you gave on deliveries to the USA are deliveries to individuals. In addition, ammunition 5.45x39 and 7.62x53P are supplied to the United States, as well as a number of cartridges for hunting weapons.
        1. wehr
          31 January 2017 13: 06
          +1
          First, judging by the data for 1940-1941, production has grown from 2,7 to 3,7 billion, that is, about a third. This is at a time when cartridge production was really intensively engaged. It is unlikely that our plants will be able to overpower more growth, and this will yield up to 4 billion units per year, perhaps even up to 4,5 billion, which will not change the situation significantly.

          Secondly, for example, in the 2010 year, Russia transferred 2,5 million cartridges to Afghanistan, and 2 million more at the beginning of the 2016 year. To the question of the availability of information.
          It is only necessary to be able to collect and think about it.
          1. Disorder
            Disorder 1 February 2017 05: 46
            +1
            Quote: wehr
            Firstly, judging by the data for 1940-1941, production increased from 2,7 to 3,7 billion units, that is, about a third. This is at a time when cartridge production was really intensively engaged.

            You somehow cut back on the data for your conclusions. Take the release data rifle cartridges for 40-45 years.
            40 g - 2798.7 mln pcs, 41 g - 3701.6 mln pcs, 42 g - 2088.3 mln pcs, 43 g - 3243.2 mln pcs, 44 g - 3455.6 mln pcs, 45 g - 1755.8 million pcs
            In 42, there was a strong drop in production associated with the evacuation of factories in October-November 41. Moreover, even with this, a drop in cartridge shortage was not observed. The 41st year is incorrect to take for calculations. It is difficult to calculate the losses from the evacuation. If the war began in 42, it is possible that the release of cartridges in 41 reached 4-4.5 billion. In addition, it should be borne in mind that the bulk of the ammunition was accumulating in the border military districts, it is still not known how much was lost during the retreat.
            Quote: wehr
            Secondly, for example, in the 2010 year, Russia transferred 2,5 million cartridges to Afghanistan, and 2 million more at the beginning of the 2016 year. To the question of the availability of information.

            And between 2010 and 2016? Was it scheduled deliveries or one-time transfers? And how much was delivered to Syria? And how much is supplied to our army? Too fragmentary data.
            And in the end. Do you really think that Shoigu is dumber than you and did not pay attention to the supply of cartridges?
            1. wehr
              1 February 2017 14: 31
              +2
              What does the evacuation and the loss? You said that with mobilization there will be an increase in the production of hoo. The military data say that since the beginning of the war and before the evacuation there was an increase in output, but obviously not many times.
              Here and in our case, the growth will also be, and about the same, on 20-30%, which does not cover to any extent the military needs for cartridges. This is the case, if mobrezervy not cut for scrap.

              Nice to hear the crackling of tearing patterns. laughing
              No, Shoigu is smart enough. But the root of the cartridge problem is technological. According to the existing technology, tens of billions of cartridges cannot be produced in a short time. Therefore, Shoigu has to be cut out of what is.
              1. Disorder
                Disorder 2 February 2017 05: 57
                0
                And you remember the story. 41 g. - preparation for war. Not a planned increase in output, but accumulation before the war. And pay attention to 45 g. - the output was almost halved.
                The volume of production is determined not by technology, but by the amount of raw materials and equipment.
                1. wehr
                  2 February 2017 11: 53
                  0
                  You are obviously confused already.

                  Well, the amount of raw materials and equipment. Even if we assume that everything is in order with raw materials, then there remains another threshold - the highest possible equipment performance.
                  For example, in the 1980-ies created automatic lines with a capacity of 1 billion cartridges per year. It is easy to calculate that they gave the 1902 cartridge and a minute or 32 cartridge per second. In my opinion, this is close to the limit of possibilities for this technology.
                  1. Disorder
                    Disorder 2 February 2017 23: 49
                    0
                    And if the lines are 2-3?
                    You can provide information: how many active lines are now, how many new lines are being produced, how many lines are being preserved?
                    1. wehr
                      3 February 2017 13: 39
                      0
                      Well, what a question? Are you in trouble with arithmetic? If the line has a capacity of 1 billions of rounds per year, and three lines are working, how many rounds do they produce? Obviously, 3 billion.

                      To cover the needs of wartime, you need 36 of such lines, well, or, taking into account stocks, you can do about 30 lines. So much in the USSR was not done.
                      1. Disorder
                        Disorder 4 February 2017 00: 09
                        0
                        Quote: wehr
                        You can provide information: how many active lines are now, how many new lines are being produced, how many lines are being preserved?

                        Quote: wehr
                        To cover the needs of wartime, you need 36 of such lines, well, or, taking into account stocks, you can do about 30 lines. So much in the USSR was not done.

                        And how much was done in the USSR?
  19. Leeder
    Leeder 30 January 2017 18: 01
    +2
    A strange methodology for calculating expenses, according to the author, that the whole million troops will fight?
    Here you need to consider directly how much infantry will be involved, because they will make the main expense, and this is no more than 20-30% of all the RF Armed Forces. So the figures for the consumption of ammunition are unreasonably high.
  20. Kolyan 2
    Kolyan 2 30 January 2017 18: 09
    0
    One ammunition (250 rounds) for this stock
    Maybe even and changed for 6 years while I'm retired, but B / C
  21. Kolyan 2
    Kolyan 2 30 January 2017 18: 36
    0
    Quote: Mar. Tira
    Do not forget how much the warehouse manager and the foreman drink and sell! It all depends on their appetite!
  22. Kolyan 2
    Kolyan 2 30 January 2017 18: 42
    +2
    Quote: Mar. Tira
    Do not forget how much the warehouse manager and the foreman drink and sell! It all depends on their appetite!

    Have you seen the elders selling ammunition to Utah - to? I will not say for the storekeepers. According to your understanding, you are familiar with the army verbally by soldiers' tales. negative
  23. esaul1950
    esaul1950 30 January 2017 18: 53
    +1
    The problem is, however, if we do not shandarahnem each other with something bigger .... and no one may need cartridges.
  24. cap
    cap 30 January 2017 18: 59
    +2
    An article from the OBS series, as well as the "analyst" himself. 50 tons of explosives are in TNT equivalent per army breakthrough section, you can attack without firing, because there are even moles underground fried. laughing Himself believed this to the author note.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 31 January 2017 00: 26
      +2
      You look - the snack will be right under your feet.
  25. Al. Peresvet
    Al. Peresvet 30 January 2017 19: 14
    +2
    Is there any powder in the flasks? Are there any ammo for weapons? The thing is necessary and necessary.
    Finally, it is quite obvious that the cartridge issue exists, it is very acute, and needs a speedy solution, providing for a sharp increase in the production of cartridges. Or you can be defeated in a large-scale war that goes beyond the local armed conflict.

    I completely agree, the cartridges should be. For the World War. For every fireman.
  26. Berkut24
    Berkut24 30 January 2017 19: 59
    +3
    "They can say that the stocks in the warehouses are - hoo. Maybe. And maybe not."
    ... strong analytics, you can’t even argue.
    However, the question is for the author: where is the confidence that the next war will include a front line, multi-million-strong armies along this front line, protracted trench battles, etc. Ukraine inspired?
    In my opinion, the next war will last ... half an hour. So much is needed for a state that has challenged a nuclear power to cease to exist forever. And cartridges can be useful mainly for cross-border conflicts. Today, weapons make it possible for these half an hour to disable any command and control system for the troops and the country as a whole, after which the delivery of ammunition in the billionth amount becomes irrelevant, because it becomes meaningless due to the incomprehensibility of what, how much, from where, on what and where to carry.
    1. mamuka
      mamuka 1 February 2017 21: 03
      0
      technologies for miniaturization of nuclear charges are being developed now, IF IF our missiles reach the states in SUFFICIENT amounts - nobody will probably survive there, but on our territory, especially considering the ongoing re-equipment of NATO aircraft - transferring the emphasis of weapons from nuclear warheads from strategists to conventional fighter bomber - as I understand it, it is planned to deliver targeted attacks on military and industrial facilities with minimization of pollution and other things - the conclusion is that there will be a mass of people of varying degrees organized, including infantry, etc. here and machine guns and machine guns will be used. And one should not think that no one will come, they say they will bomb and climb - leaving uncontrolled territory without occupation with the possibility of falling into the wrong hands of nuclear weapons is fraught. and it will not last half an hour.
      P.S. maybe now it’s worth transferring to the troops 3-4 times increased ammunition (taking into account the concentration of NATO at the borders) + disperse warehouses throughout the country. it will not be worse, but it will be calmer (but suddenly it’s still really useful)
      IMHO
      1. Berkut24
        Berkut24 2 February 2017 11: 57
        +1
        The bottom line is that if there is an aggressor country, then it will be subject to total destruction. There is such a term - unacceptable damage. This is when a potential aggressor evaluates what it will cost an attack on a neighbor. an attack is necessary to obtain certain benefits. And if from such a landfill there are only losses for their country, then no one will launch an offensive. Russia is a country that will cause unacceptable damage to any other country or group of countries.
        In general, each ammunition is quite expensive. one cartridge cost an average of 30 rubles. A line from Kalash in one horn was released during exercises - the country suffered poorer by almost 1000 rubles. The balance of stocks is important here. Ammunition tends to age. After the expiration date, disposal costs begin. And there are costs for storage and protection. I want to remind you that we have just just finished self-exploding ammunition depots that came from the USSR.
  27. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 30 January 2017 21: 26
    +2
    The authors why the price of a cartridge is 8 rubles? And about the number of cartridges we produce. I doubt that you know the capacity of the plant?
    It is unlikely that you know how many shifts work, and how much equipment is involved.
    Your article is fortune-telling.
    1. wehr
      30 January 2017 22: 23
      +3
      No problem. Give accurate data. If you have them. Let's substitute other figures, we will recalculate, the work will not take much time.

      If you do not have accurate data, then please do not shake the air.
      1. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 31 January 2017 00: 37
        +1
        My friend, it’s you shaking the air, then about the PP, then screw it to the PP grenade launcher, then about without sleeveless machine guns.
        I won’t give you exact data, because the plant’s capacity is a secret, I know that now these enterprises do not work in several shifts (at least they worked). And this already says something. In order to be able to judge the capacity of the plant, you need to know what equipment is working. Which is preserved, how many shifts, what mobresource, etc., etc. Few people know about this, I think that this information is of defense significance and accordingly has secrecy.
        In the manufacture of cartridges, a lot of subcontractors are involved, so even you can’t calculate it, other people are involved in this, who are calculating the need and possibilities of production and related industries. and I think this is not five minutes. For example, when they raise the issue of disposal, for some reason they think about destroying the cartridge, but they can just take it apart and make a new one out of its components, what will happen to a bullet or cartridge case when stored properly? And if you shoot it off as a disposal, then what is the saving?
        About the prices. You took the prices from the store, or the Internet? who sells these cartridges in retail (for the sake of interest, ask at what price wholesale owners of stores buy) the state buys cartridges, it is much cheaper because it is super wholesale. I don’t know how much, and it’s unlikely that it is in the public domain, but given that these cartridges have been produced for several decades, or even a century, the price is cheap due to the mass production. I remember during the Soviet Union a pack of PM rounds of 16 pieces, as smart people said (for which I bought, for that I sell) cost 20 kopecks.
        I hope I have listed enough reasons why I called your article fortune-telling on coffee grounds. And I’ll add that you make one tolerance, then the second, then the third and, as a result, the article is continuous tolerances.
        And so that you could understand what cartridges are, then if you give examples similar to cartridges from civilian life, then take a stapler and staples to it staples. You can steal tens of thousands of them in a year without even thinking.
        PS.
        And why, not having accurate data, can you shake the air, but I can’t?
        1. wehr
          31 January 2017 02: 04
          +3
          Why can I, but you do not? This is very obvious. First, I have numbers, and you have voice statements with a hint of secrecy. Secondly, I show that I have a starting point and how the rest of the figures are obtained, when additional data appear, you can recalculate and clarify, and you only have a link to some "knowledgeable people" about the ridiculous price for a pack of PM cartridges (by the way, In my estimation, one metal that went to 16 PM cartridges cost about Soviet 20-25 kopecks at Soviet prices, not counting gunpowder, mercury, acids, varnish, machining, power consumption, and others. Thirdly, I have calculation and logic, and you have a belief that there are a lot of cartridges and they are cheap.
          This clearly shows your comment, confused, confused. Could be limited to a short phrase, like this: "I believe in an abundance of cheap cartridges." Everything, more from you nothing.

          Well, a few more comments about your statements.
          The first. To calculate whether there are enough ammunition for a war, I do not need to know the shift, the composition of the equipment, the number of subcontractors, mobresurs, and so on. Only one figure is needed: plant capacity per year or per month (one is easily converted into another). This figure is compared with the average monthly consumption of ammunition by the troops and a conclusion is made. If power is less than consumption, then there is or will be a shortage of cartridges. If more - then everything is in order, you can fight.
          The second. You have something there babbled about some complex calculations of needs. If you are talking about the calculation of metal needs, then this can be done on a piece of paper, if the release in pieces is known. The weight of the liner and the bullet is known, multiplied into pieces, the weight of the consumed metal is obtained. It is necessary to add a part that went to waste during procurement operations, with bar technology is very small. This will give almost the exact weight of the metal consumption by the cartridge plant. Similarly, you can calculate the demand for brass for primers, the consumption of acids, soda, you can estimate the energy consumption. It will be more difficult, but also possible if desired.
          You are just an illiterate person, you do not know how to do it. And you take to teach others life.
          Third. The cost of the Russian patron. as they said in the Parliament of Kazakhstan when discussing the project of their own cartridge plant (not built), 5.45х39 with a steel sleeve - 95 dollars per 1000 pieces, which gives in terms of 5,7 rubles per piece. The plant and by state orders sells them at a profit, so that the purchase price will be higher. Which one is unknown. I took 8 rubles apiece. If we are told what the purchase price of the cartridge is, we will clarify the calculation.
          Finally, the fourth. A cartridge, for the production of which one sleeve requires 95 operations, cannot be compared with staples for any weather conditions. The cartridge is a complex product of one of the mechanical engineering industries.
          1. Kostya Andreev
            Kostya Andreev 31 January 2017 11: 45
            +2
            My friend, I’m embarrassed to ask about your numbers, is this serious? Are you talking about those in the article?
            For example: According to the ex-Minister of Defense of Kazakhstan, Army General Mukhtar Altynbaev, the Soviet contingent in Afghanistan spent about 300 million pieces of ammunition per month.
            From here, one can take the following coefficient: an army of 100 thousand people during the hostilities spends 300 million pieces of cartridges per month, or 3,6 billion pieces of cartridges per year.
            [B] [/ b]
            You can allow it, or you can not allow it. So I'm talking about them and say that all the tolerances! That is 10 million per day. Although it’s quite possible, are there any sources that are more reliable, on which you rely, and not the statement of a general who can be a “knowledgeable person” and there are different cartridges, from 5.6 to 14.5 mm, about which he even spoke? Could it be not only about the small, or only about the small, small-caliber or large-caliber?
            I agree that I didn’t have enough literacy on how to carry out 4 actions of mathematics and make profound conclusions. I use numbers when I can prove them accurately, and not like you. about whether there are enough cartridges for war, specify for what? And what ammo? They are different. I do not have a hint of secrecy, but indicate in plain text. That this data is not widely available. Do not believe me, send a request to the factory!
            Let's keep silent about your logic and calculation, this is what I observe on your articles, about software and grenade launchers, and here too!
            Now I will give you the numbers based on the logic of the trader and speculator. we take the price in the store, 8-10 rubles. So, if I were selling ammunition: for a cheap product of not everyday demand, we wind up the minimum price, because I arrived only at the expense of turnover, so I sell for 8 rubles, I buy in bulk for 4 rubles, but the plant also needs to earn. And you can safely throw out the factory income from 4 rubles, I think 2 rubles, or even more. And here we get the approximate price of a cartridge of 2 rubles. And the state buys constantly and a lot and the price will not be much higher. (and most likely even cheaper)
            Therefore, there are many rounds and they are cheap. (also began to operate with numbers like you, and at the same level).
            So I have a starting point that is more real than your assumptions, and you could limit yourself to a simple phrase, “this article, my fantasies with big assumptions).
            About the cost of a cartridge in Kazakhstan, it would not be bad for you to clarify that this cost is at the beginning of production, and give figures what it will be in 30 years. You can do this by counting five minutes on a piece of paper.
            And finally about the cartridge, and the stapler. I’ve given you an example of a stapler, as a person who did not serve, which would be easier to understand. What is a statewide cartridge.
            Well, I’m not a literate person, well, what to do, not everyone will be like you a competent genius, offering to equip PP with grenade launchers. (This is probably from great literacy).
            You laughed at the words "knowledgeable people", so this is the head of the RAV service. Maybe he was mistaken or confused, but I have more trust in him than couch experts like you. Who use “I counted as evidence.” I figured it out. " Or, as a fact and basis of the article, unproven words of some unknown general are used.
            1. wehr
              31 January 2017 21: 56
              +2
              Well, let it be the head of the RAW. The problem is not in this, but in the fact that you easily believe everything that people of "knowledgeable people" hang on your ears of any kind, or those whom you consider as such. Right here with your mouth open. I prefer to check, and preferably with the calculation.
              This is not an idle question. There will be a big war - and there will be a very big difference whether they give full ammunition or five rounds of ammunition per barrel. It will depend, in particular, on whom to live and who to die.

              Your calculation of the cost of cartridges is obviously wrong, because you took a very low retail price. In fact, on average, goes to the store 15 rubles apiece. If you count the markups from this price, then just these 5,7 or round 6 rubles will be released, which was discussed in the Parliament of Kazakhstan.
              By the way, it was a hearing in the Senate of the Parliament of Kazakhstan (a body similar to the Council of Federation of the Russian Federation), dedicated to the fate of the ammunition plant project for 30 million pieces per year. General Altynbayev acted there, being a member of the Senate and ex-Minister of Defense of Kazakhstan, that is, a person who in the past was responsible for supplying the Kazakh army with ammunition. By virtue of these circumstances, I recognize his data as plausible.
              Speaking of trust, I have much more confidence in General Altynbayev than in you and all your stories. If only because I can learn a lot about him. But who you are - I do not know. Clear clarify?

              Since it was not specified, then under the flow rate in 300 million units it is necessary to understand the consumption of cartridges of small arms, that is, caliber 5.45, 7.62, 9 mm. Caliber 12.7 mm (DShK) and above are usually taken into account separately from rifle ammunition, and so it was a long time ago.
              In the expenditure of ammunition in the Afghan war, the overwhelming majority, more than 90%, will be 5.45 mm - to the machine gun, and 7.62 mm to the machine gun and machine gun. From the point of view of cartridge production, the difference between the cartridges of this type is small. Therefore, it does not make much sense to specify in large calculations, especially since there is no necessary information for these clarifications.
              Since Russia is armed with basically the same types of small arms as in the Afghan war, then for future wars there is a speech mainly on the same 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 cartridges. There was a slightly higher consumption of 9x18 cartridges, new types of them appeared, but they make up a fraction of a percent in the total mass of ammunition. If there is no accurate source data, this can also be neglected, it will not affect the general conclusions.

              In general, I think that war will judge us. As soon as it starts, it will immediately become clear who was right and whether there are cartridges in the Russian state.
              1. Kostya Andreev
                Kostya Andreev 1 February 2017 00: 16
                0
                Is your cost estimate correct? You need to know that retail is always more expensive than wholesale! Check prices! And how is this a greatly reduced retail price? This is something new!!! Is there a slightly understated, or medium-low? There is a difference in price, which depends on the manufacturer, for example, the price from the Tula cartridge factory, and the paw will be different. About the price: I operated on affordable prices in stores. I repelled them, but what did you get 15 rubles from? You talked about this calculation? take the amount from the bulldozer and think as you like? Customizing the task to the answer! And in Kazakhstan, the ruble is used in the calculations between the MO and the manufacturer? Do you convert tenge into rubles?
                Regarding the cost of the cartridge for the Kazakhs, it would be nice to find out what is included in this price, maybe building a plant, equipment, salaries for workers and specialists, taxes, depreciation of equipment, the cost of its maintenance, paying the cost of a license, etc., etc. And why didn’t you calculate in five minutes what the cost of the cartridge will be in 10 years, in mass production, when will it all pay off? You love logic and calculation !!!
                You suggest increasing the production of cartridges! And what will happen if overproduction of products suddenly occurs. Warehouses littered, no sales. Then what to do? This is to say that before advocating for multi-billion dollar production and shouting about unpreparedness, you need to turn on your head and think about the future!
                As for who I am, and you do not know me, this is not a dating club, but I will answer nonetheless. Of course, I am not a general, but I have enough knowledge and experience to have my own judgment, and when writing an article, you need to use links to sources, and not to the words of a general. And who is Altynbaev, maybe he is like our Grachev or Serdyukov and you are his relative. Words, if not supported by documents, are just words, for example, he could be mistaken or you embellish! Or a general, hangs noodles on his ears to steal more! I have no trust in him at all, hto is this? Who knows why he froze !!! Should I believe everything? I’m not like YOU who easily believes everything that they’re hung on the ears of all kinds of “knowledgeable people”, well, or those whom you think are such.
                Regarding the consumption of cartridges of 300 million, you are all calibers of ammunition, dumped in a heap, so you are not going to conduct research, well, as always, you have tolerances and averaging. In the comments you were criticized for this!
                I do not deny that you may be right, but you have problems with the evidence base, everything is based on tolerances and assumptions, as a result of this, my assessment of the cost of the cartridge (also established by the method of poking, tolerances) also has the right to exist! In order to end the argument. You just need to find out the cost of the cartridge. And do not engage in verbiage!
                As you can see, in my response to your comment, I could do without turns of speech, like: “I clearly explain who you are and so on and so forth!
                I look forward to your new research, I hope you prepare better !!! All success !!!
                1. wehr
                  1 February 2017 02: 00
                  +1
                  You, as I see it, have been the victim of your carelessness. There is no "cost of ammunition from the Kazakhs" for the simple reason that they themselves have not yet produced a single cartridge. All ammunition is bought in Russia as a member of the CSTO, that is, at wholesale prices. The cost price of cartridges at the Russian ammunition factories in the Senate was indicated in dollars per thousand pieces, I counted it in rubles per piece. The price was called, as I understand it, people associated with the procurement of ammunition for the Kazakh army.
                  Why in dollars? Obviously, because the Kazakhs compared the cost of a Russian cartridge with cartridges in other countries in order to choose the most profitable option. No option was chosen, the plant was not built, but some information was provided, and thanks for that.

                  According to my estimates, if the price of steel bars grows from the current 32 thousand rubles per ton to about 45 thousand rubles per ton, then the cost of one cartridge will exceed 8 rubles per unit. Will arrange such an assessment? If you want better and fuller - pay, such work costs money.
                  In general, this is a rather strange approach - on the issue of the army’s ability to speak about payback. It is like asking: for how much would you sell your freedom. The accumulation of military stocks - these are mandatory expenses, maybe hard, but necessary. If these stocks are not, then all your profits will be taken away by the foe.
                  Excess cartridges are not a particular problem. There is always something to use. You can sell or even donate to the allies, if they are fighting in our interests, you can spend them on infantry training of the army and the population. I do not understand how you can count on something and generally be complacent when preparation comes down to 12 shots.
                  So I think about the future, and I think that the cartridges should always be in excess, if that did not happen.

                  The source is the source. So let us get it and get it, since you don’t like my tolerances and averaging: an official document that indicates how much a cartridge costs. This is how you will extract, so I will correct my calculations. At the same time and find out who was right in assessing the value of the cartridge, and stop the dispute.
                  True, I want to note that this will give little. Money, alas, cannot mystically turn into ammunition in the right quantity at the right time.
                  1. mamuka
                    mamuka 1 February 2017 21: 15
                    0
                    I can immediately explain to everyone about the retail cost of cartridges - in Pskov in the DOSAAF dash in the fall of 2016, the cartridge for a Makarov pistol cost 35 rubles. apiece - here's the retail for you. I don’t know how much, however, I believe that an AK cartridge will cost more, if only because of its larger size (correspondingly, a greater consumption of raw materials). so, I suppose, the author’s assumption of 8 rubles. apiece for wholesale in the Ministry of Defense - it is likely
  28. kuz363
    kuz363 30 January 2017 21: 26
    +5
    "According to published information, about 2 billion cartridges with a shelf life of more than 40 years are to be disposed of per year." Why not use these cartridges for training soldiers instead of recycling? Or is it already dangerous to shoot them? Well, there will be misfires, so for training at a shooting range it is uncritical.
  29. tolancop
    tolancop 30 January 2017 21: 38
    +6
    An attempt to assess the possibilities of supplying army cartridges in wartime and the volume of stocks is welcome. The author mentions that he does not have accurate data and takes "what is" data for calculations. As a result, one assumption is superimposed on the other and the third and there is no result of faith.
    In order to calculate something, he projected data on 40 armies for all the armed forces in a million people. And this million includes those to whom the machine gun is not supposed to be staffed, and those who take it out of the pyramid every six months, and sailors and pilots. Well, what's the use of such calculations? In addition, the author is largely inaccurate.
    "In the Soviet and in the Russian army there were very few cartridges for the practice of one shooter: three test, three test ones."
    I can’t talk about the Russian army, I didn’t serve. But I can say about the Soviet mid-80s. If memory serves, then the standard exercise of a soldier when firing from an assault rifle was 3 single shots at a target, and 3 bursts of 2 rounds. Total 9. I’m a rocket launcher, and in our unit they rarely shot, but not because they didn’t give ammunition (according to the ensign - the chief of the RAV warehouse, the limit of ammunition for training firing was not used up in 10 years, and there would be an opportunity, he would be for everyone issued zinc, still write off), but there wasn’t any shooting range. The youngsters were "shot" at the shooting range of the neighboring unit, about which every six months they had to agree. I also met motorized rifles, with whom the stalks were already so sick of it that it was impossible to say, apparently from a lack of ammunition. At one time, the school had such a subject - NVP. So, after the 9th grade, they drove us to the shooting range twice: shooting from a carbine (if the memory serves, then it is valid according to the 3 + 3 scheme) and from the machine gun already mentioned 3 * 1 + 3 * 2. Also see from the lack of ammunition. T.ch. IMHO, about the lack of ammunition for training firing in Soviet times, the author is very mistaken.

    If they shot a little at the Soviet army, it was most likely not because the cartridges were saving, but for another, more prosaic reason. Anyone who was involved in the organization of shooting knows how much this hemorrhagic and responsible occupation is. Organize, bring, ensure security (about it below), collect after firing and turn in the cartridges (and if shortage?), Write off the ammunition spent. Is it necessary? And if at the same time a hundred times instructed ok shoot someone?
    T.ch. whatever one may say, and if any sensible commander has the opportunity not to conduct training firing, he will not miss this opportunity.
    1. wehr
      30 January 2017 22: 30
      +1
      Your amendment, in effect, does not change anything, if only because I did not make estimates of the training expenditure of cartridges in the Soviet army. To do this, you need to know the minimum number of annual conscription. Such data has not yet been found, and if there is, then it will not be difficult to determine this training expense.

      T.ch. whatever one may say, and if any sensible commander has the opportunity not to conduct training firing, he will not miss this opportunity.

      I now want to ask you: what do you think, can you immediately give up?
      1. tolancop
        tolancop 5 February 2017 01: 42
        0
        And from what does this follow? If you are thinking about surrender at heart, then you do not need to attribute your shortcomings to others.
        I have already mentioned that rocket launchers and firing from personal weapons were very rare in our unit. But the rocket launcher’s weapons are not automatic, but something else. And to the development of this other attitude was without nonsense. And according to the results of the training ground, the commander received an extraordinary colonel. And VERY prematurely ... Missiles fired well. Well, and for which commander is also a smut with automatic fire? They built their shooting range, but very slowly. When I came to part of it, I was already thinking of building, and when I left one and a half years later, they were still building.
        I hope that firing is not a big "bunt" to dispute?
        My army experience is not to say that it is large, but still there is some. And this experience says that from weapons in the hands of a soldier expect trouble. You can instruct the weapon handling to tears - it will not help. Three or four months did not pass for the guard, discharging the machine after the shift, to release the line into the bullet catcher. And these not only inexperienced soldiers sinned.
        1. wehr
          5 February 2017 12: 54
          0
          Perhaps, then, in general, to disarm the army, if from weapons in the hands of a soldier expect trouble? We learned how to clean shoes, clean the floors and fill the beds - and good. As the NATO troops arrive, former soldiers with such valuable skills will immediately find something to do. laughing

          Your pacifism is disgusting and disgusting.
          1. tolancop
            tolancop 5 February 2017 18: 52
            0
            And to me vile and disgusting you personally distort the manner. Complying with basic security rules and disarming the army are two different things. And I do not need to ascribe pacifism, since it is only in your imagination. And your tuft calculations, because they do not have any reliable source data. I tried to bring this idea in a soft form, but, apparently, in vain, I have to write in plain text.
            1. wehr
              5 February 2017 19: 40
              +1
              Well, what about you, if not pacifism in its concentrated form? Not to give the rifle training a soldier - this is it. "If only there was no war" and all that.
              Why then call in the army, if there is no training in the possession of weapons, including personal, small arms? Having 12 shots, the soldiers will not learn to shoot. It turns out that the call in order to teach how to clean shoes, scrub the floors and make the beds. Well, still paint the grass. Och-ry-ry, I would say valuable skills! laughing
              And rocket men need to be able to shoot from personal weapons. Little will happen in the war. It may be necessary to defend the missile position from enemy saboteurs, or even to go to the front line. And tankers need, and the pilots, and the BAO, and even the chefs, too, need. so that it would not be necessary, following the example of the Red Army man Sereda, to attack an enemy tank with an ax.
              Try to challenge my calculations reasonably. So after all, it will not work for you.
  30. fa2998
    fa2998 30 January 2017 22: 09
    +2
    Here we are sitting in the trench. On the right is the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, on the left is the Minister of Defense. A little further the defense is kept by the pilots of the Swifts and the crew of Yuri Dolgoruky. Next are the ensemble of Alexandrov and the division of missile Topolis, and so to the horizon, for thousands kilometers of front-EVERYTHING, MILLION PERSON. And each with ammunition is laden and are firing friendly!
    Nonsense of course! My friend fired 12 rounds at the construction battalion, another 6 (six!) In 2 years. I don’t know those railwaymen who are now laying a branch around Ukraine are unlikely to spend more. The cost of training and military operations is contrived.
    And also about the Second World War. The rifle cartridges were well "devoured" by the ShKAS machine gun (1800 rounds / min). And there was also an ultra-ShKAS. Dozens of aircraft on which it was used, tens of thousands built, hundreds of thousands of sorties. One IL-2 (36 thousand. aircraft) 2 stood. Count! hi
  31. Radikal
    Radikal 30 January 2017 22: 27
    +1
    Quote: Rus2012
    Quote: Author Dmitry Verkhoturov
    .... the cartridge issue exists, it is very acute, and needs a speedy solution, providing for a sharp increase in the production of cartridges.

    ... according to tiny information from the media: there is no doubt! And it’s not good for AK type, but also for some other nomenclature.
    To the extent that part of the ammunition is purchased from the Chinese.
    It is likely that cooperation will be created ...

    PS: the illustrations show a picture with blank cartridges ...

    Not with single, but with educational! Learn materiel, "expert"! wassat
  32. Anton Valerevich
    Anton Valerevich 30 January 2017 22: 46
    +1
    You can, as an option, legitimize the arms trade - this will significantly increase the demand for cartridges, and will help develop production.
  33. Tektor
    Tektor 30 January 2017 22: 58
    0
    I read the opinion that our cartridges, the designs of the king of peas, have long failed to meet modern technical requirements: they are not accurate enough. If it were my will, I would transfer all small arms to more modern cartridges, at least 9x39 SP5, SP6, BP.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 31 January 2017 00: 33
      0
      Yes there is such a thing - the complete impotence of our gunsmiths to create new cartridges and shells, the same 14,5 will not wait until new armor-piercing and armor-piercing incendiary bullets are made for him. In the USA they already want to switch to 6,5 cartridge.
      1. your1970
        your1970 31 January 2017 11: 21
        +1
        Quote: Vadim237
        Yes there is such a thing - the complete impotence of our gunsmiths to create new cartridges and shells, the same 14,5 will not wait until new armor-piercing and armor-piercing incendiary bullets are made for him. In the USA they already want to switch to 6,5 cartridge.

        -the problem is different. You can create a cartridge - where to put the old ones? With close to the expiration of the shelf life, with half the shelf life?
    2. TiRex
      TiRex 31 January 2017 14: 08
      +1
      From somewhere you dug up such specialists, a normally assembled 5,45 * 39 cartridge from an ordinary barrel calmly for 150-200 m gives you a hit in a stationary target the size of a human head (which is not very visible at such distances, without optics), and at a fast pace, you can calmly shoot at 300-400m in the body. Next works 7,62 * 54 and large calibers.
    3. AndreyS
      AndreyS 31 January 2017 14: 21
      0
      Quote: Tektor
      If it were my will, I would transfer all small arms to more modern cartridges, at least 9x39 SP5, SP6, BP.

      Forgive me dear Tektor, but this is your utter utter nonsense! I will explain why. All the ammunition that you described (BP I hope PAB.9) are special SP-5 cartridges sniper cartridge for the BCC and VSK-94, SP-6 rifles for the AS, SR-3, 9A-91 assault rifles. At the same time, the firing range of this weapon is 400 meters, all cartridges are subsonic.
      Attention question! Why is it that they are modern ?! What will you shoot at a distance of 600-1000 meters? For example, the sighting range of AK is 1 km.
      Before you write such comments, you should at least google it and compare different ammunition.
      1. Tektor
        Tektor 31 January 2017 16: 03
        0
        The cartridge cannot be subsonic, or supersonic, or hypersonic: a bullet can. And the barrel length and the composition of gunpowder make a supersonic bullet.
        1. TiRex
          TiRex 31 January 2017 20: 24
          +2
          You're not right. the ammunition of the line you specified is a special development for weapons with a silencer, they were never planned and could not be the main army ammunition - they are a compromise between noise and enemy defeat ...
          and when you drag on yourself BC “nine” and BC 5,45 and find out the difference ...
          Iksperd you sofa
  34. dubowitskij.vick
    dubowitskij.vick 31 January 2017 02: 09
    +2
    You won’t have to rely on Lend-Lease in this war.
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 31 January 2017 02: 15
      0
      Chinese Lend-Lease, as an option.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 31 January 2017 10: 27
        0
        The Chinese ammunition that will fire every other time, the time will come and we will have to fight with the Chinese, that's where the cartridges and shells are definitely not enough.
        1. your1970
          your1970 31 January 2017 11: 24
          0
          and are you going to fight with China using ammunition / shells? We will draw a 10-15-20 millionth army for at least minimal confrontation? China can stupidly cross the border of 50-100 million even without weapons ...
          So nuclear weapons and only nuclear weapons - in all major cities ...
        2. adma
          adma 31 January 2017 20: 28
          +2
          Quote: Vadim237
          Chinese cartridges that will shoot through time

          What do you think. what our cartridges issued during the war will show the best result?
  35. dubowitskij.vick
    dubowitskij.vick 31 January 2017 02: 15
    +2
    Quote: kuz363
    "According to published information, about 2 billion cartridges with a shelf life of more than 40 years are to be disposed of per year." Why not use these cartridges for training soldiers instead of recycling? Or is it already dangerous to shoot them? Well, there will be misfires, so for training at a shooting range it is uncritical.

    A trained locksmith in the workshop needs to be given a piece of a chisel, a cut of a hammer and offered to become a master of his craft during the study period.

    Overdue (I would like to say, expired) cartridges have a bad property not only to snap off but also to explode, knocking out a young replenishment and dropping confidence in the quality of the weapon. A soldier afraid of his machine gun is not a soldier. He is generally not a man.
  36. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 31 January 2017 02: 52
    +2
    The author, it seems, was planning to organize a seven-year war with someone!? To some extent, comforted! I used to think: here begins the 3-I World ... boom-bang! So that is all ! We’ll pick out isotopes from under the nails, wipe the radioactive snot! And he revered the Author and perked up! Seem to live again! ..... until the cartridges run out.
  37. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 31 January 2017 05: 01
    +4
    Even in the Soviet school, the military instructor asked: Do you know why cigarette cases and pasta are 7,62-mm in size? So, in order to, in the “case”, quickly organize the production of cartridges in pasta and cigarette factories! And if you consider that the media sometimes grumble about the outdated (sometimes, from Soviet times!) Equipment at a number of enterprises ... then maybe ..... "there is no silver lining" ?! wink winked
  38. Alekspel
    Alekspel 31 January 2017 05: 06
    +1
    By the way. When he served as the head of the RAV, the SME in the GSVG counted the expenditure of cartridges of various nomenclatures for training firing per year. It turned out about 1 million pieces. If there is a constant composition of firing about 1000 people, the cost per fighter is about 1000 pieces per year, so the author is right here.
  39. astronom1973n
    astronom1973n 31 January 2017 06: 45
    0
    One ammunition (250 rounds) for this stock of machine guns will be 4,2 billion rounds
    .... 1 bk for AK 450 rounds, something like that.
  40. 181msp
    181msp 31 January 2017 07: 28
    +1
    Quote: Monarchist
    The former neighbor was in the second Chechen, he told. Usually worn: 4 "jacks" ie 8 stores + 1V AK.

    The former neighbor is certainly an absolute authority, as well as a former classmate, acquaintance of a friend, grandmother who personally taught Stalin's life, as well as other specialists from the OBS agency.
  41. 181msp
    181msp 31 January 2017 07: 34
    0
    Quote: Pfleger
    The list can be started with the daughter of EBN. For her, laws have not been written in Russia for a long time, and today she is your Austrian citizen.

    1) Do you have it with anyone? Specify your statement, please.
    2) Does EBN daughter drink on all Russian money? And still not drunk and alive? Explain how much you mean by your words "all Russian money."
    3) And who else drinks on Rublevka besides the Austrian-given daughter of EBN? Give specific names, addresses and dates of drunkards and I am ready to appeal with you to stop this disgrace in law enforcement.
  42. Wolka
    Wolka 31 January 2017 07: 40
    +2
    credit to the author, a very curious reviewer with many introductory thoughts
  43. Vovanya
    Vovanya 31 January 2017 10: 58
    0
    With this approach to weapons, there will always be problems with cartridges, as EVERYTHING developed weapons are designed for expensive cartridges in production, the most expensive part of which is the cartridge case - complex and expensive to manufacture, requiring significant costs of various resources. But to develop a rifle system for a more quickly manufactured cartridge-free cartridge - alas, the mind is not enough, although there are enough "sanatoriums" where weapons are developed and "assistant professors with candidates" (c). They may object that the cartridgeless cartridge is dangerous, but this is not the reason, because in our century, chemistry has stepped forward so far that it is already possible to create compositions that are as strong as steel and ignite only from a special igniter, and not from the heated walls of the chamber. And what prospects such a cartridge opens up - even the imagination is not enough.
    1. your1970
      your1970 31 January 2017 11: 26
      0
      Quote: Vovanya
      And what prospects such a cartridge opens up - even the imagination is not enough.

      Fantasy is enough - only for some reason it doesn’t come out to anyone in the WORLD, despite all the charms of the uselessness ...
  44. bk316
    bk316 31 January 2017 11: 13
    +3
    Keeper,
    Cons and pros are only interested in sofa warriors

    Cons allowed to ban people like you with a gun, and now administrators will be tormented with this.
    Well, you don’t know this, you just registered.
  45. idr
    idr 31 January 2017 11: 32
    +2
    The author is captivated by the idea of ​​maintaining the database 30-40 summer ago. In a modern war, which will take place in a non-contact version and with the widespread use of robotics, the consumption of cartridges should fall by the order of 2-3 ... So everything is done correctly. Our General Staff knows what it does.
  46. ingenera
    ingenera 31 January 2017 13: 31
    0
    Quote: Rus2012
    PS: the illustrations show a picture with blank cartridges ...

    Training. At idle wad instead of a bullet.
  47. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 31 January 2017 14: 32
    +2
    The construction of new cartridge plants and the constant consumption of old stocks would solve the problem. It is clear that it will not be possible to increase the army’s expenses for regular large-scale firing, at least until our government strangles our economy with all its might. There is simply not enough resource rent.
    Means what? So you need to turn to the population for money, as usual. That is, shooting, competitions, weapons culture ... Well, that is what they are doing for their country in the USA. The ability to own, use and train with weapons for the average citizen gives the United States a lot of advantages. Alas...
  48. Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 31 January 2017 20: 06
    +1
    Really even in the USSR, there were such small volumes of production? I watched a program about potrones for a long time, it said that in wartime the expense would be trillions. How is things really going on? It’s very interesting that a war will begin where in Ukraine, we will empty all our reserves, and take us warm.
  49. adma
    adma 31 January 2017 20: 26
    +1
    Quote: Rus2012
    PS: the illustrations show a picture with blank cartridges ...

    I dare to notice not single, but educational.
  50. RRR
    RRR 31 January 2017 21: 13
    +4
    Based
    6. Finally, it is clear that the cartridge issue exists, it is very acute, and needs a speedy solution, providing for a sharp increase in the release of cartridges. Or you can be defeated in any major war that goes beyond a local armed conflict.
    Your article needs URGENTLY !!! took LPR to the Russian Federation because in Lugansk one of the oldest cartridge factories - machine-tool plant named after him. V.I. Lenin. This factory produced not only cartridges, but also cartridge production lines, processing centers for the military industry, valves for liquid rockets, vacuum pumps, control units (a secret for what), toroidal transformer winding machines, self-propelled drilling rigs and a huge list of other what to blurt out on the Internet is not necessary. And this is not counting consumer goods such as typewriters, lathes Master MS-3 and much more.
    Here now Russians and prove to each other, don’t give you Donbass, don’t give you LPR - they will eat you up ... Of course, we are second-class Russians, loafers and hatskrayniki.
    And this is only at my factory (former factory building 270, then 130 - hallmarks on cartridge bottoms).
    The 100th plant produced machines for growing and processing single crystals of silicon, sapphire, etc. that you should not know.
    But we "did not rise and did not go with the bare hands to the Nazis", which means that we must be poisoned in nete like a lousy.
    But your brains do not understand that the “officers” goes to attack only in the most extreme case. Do you think that it was necessary to put all the experts (and high-class ones) by throwing them under tanks and machine guns. Wasn’t that so? Well, read your old posts!
    What do we have now? - A semi-plundered factory where ammunition is still being made and 7.62 and 5.45 and any hunting and generally for any order. The tool kit (the basis of the plant’s life) was killed, the machine-tool production was killed, the Japanese vacuum casting line first launched in the USSR was killed, the production of drilling units was killed.
    And who needs people like me - worrying about their plant? You, lovers of smart on forums? Nafig not needed. The LPR leadership needs enterprises that immediately generate income, but here everything must be lifted from the grave.
    And here I need engineers like me - integrators who know several specialties, know accounting, are strict with themselves and with others. Only who needs it, huh?
    Oh such garbage, little ones!
    А nice article. In the hope that “they will read it upstairs and understand everything, and as soon as they understand it, they will immediately start building ammunition factories.” According to the pike’s command, that’s all there will be! Yeah, wait a minute! We already shouted from the SBU from April 6, 2014: “Russia! Russia! We want to go to Russia! "- AND SHOWN MORE?
    - The promised 3 years waiting.
    - Yes, and no one promised you anything.
    - We are for the integrity of Ukraine ...

    In general, the Lugansk region used to be called the Wild Field, because the wars passing through it destroyed the entire population. So that get ready to come to the virgin lands to develop new lands, damn it, maybe if we do not die out without work, salaries and pensions in 2-3tyr.

    And further. Everyone who complains here about me and whom I “offended”. Come live, beast with ours. Then here you will find out the relationship with me. AND who really pricks his eyes - ban, delete the account and what else you want to do. From this the opportunity to go to the site and laugh at the crazy statements and stupid ideas will not disappear. Even with IP blocking and so on, I’ll always go in if I want and do what I need. The Internet is for everyone, not for sects!
    1. Sobol
      Sobol 31 January 2017 22: 53
      0
      Yes, take the plant, do not worry.
    2. wehr
      1 February 2017 02: 03
      0
      And the article is pretty. In the hope that "at the top they will read and understand everything, but as they understand, they will immediately start building ammunition factories."


      Do not worry, do not comb it.
      Written in personal preparation for a big war.