“Triumphs” without 40H6 products: how lame is the defense capability of the Russian Aerospace Forces?

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Variant of the 5P85CM2 launcher (ZRK C-400 “Triumph”) with 3 transport-launch canisters for the 48НХNUMXХ6 / ДМ PSM, and the 2ХX1 launch module for the 3XXXXXXXXXXXXXX DMM XMNXX SAM and 9 96 launch module for the 2XMXM DMM and XNUMXXXNUMX.


Truly a mysterious value among the media, forums and military-analytical resources gained promising anti-aircraft guided ultra-long-range missile under the symbol 40Н6. The first conversations about this product appeared around 2007, when the Almaz-Antey air defense holding company had the idea of ​​creating exostratospheric long-range interceptor missiles to destroy the widest range of promising means of air attack in the altitude range from 5 to 150 or even 200 km. The acceleration in the development of the 40H6 product was greatly influenced by the “close space closure” initiative, voiced by then First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov during a visit to the holding, which apparently appeared after the noticeable progress on the Standard Missile-3 program. Recall that by the 2004 year, the experimental anti-missile RIM-161A (SM-3 Block I) had the first exostospheric object intercepted at an altitude of 137 km. Over the 10-year period of its existence, the anti-missile project 40H6 has been specifically “overgrown” with numerous myths and distortions of real facts. To which only anti-aircraft missile system it was not attributed. These are the C-400 “Triumph”, which is actively replacing the good old (and still more or less modern C-300PS), and the C-300ВМ / В4 trooper, and the most promising 55Р6М “Triumphant-M” (C -500 "Prometheus").



For example, in January of 2017, one of the numerous Chinese military-analytical resources, alarmed at the lack of the 40H6 SAM included in the received Four-Hundred, even launched a whole investigation into the possible presence of these missiles at the Russian 40P6 “Triumph”, relying on our and western sources. The Chinese also mentioned 350-400, the kilometer long-range missile 9М82МВ from the combat kit of the modernized C-300В4 air defense system, which is often confused with 40Н6; and closing the sky over AVB Hmeymim "Syrian" C-400, which, according to the US space exploration, have standard 4-hzaryadnye CPG 5P85SM2 with surface-to-air missile 48N6DM without any "hints" on 2-hzaryadnye CPG for 40N6 missiles. As a result, it was finally confirmed that the advanced SAM would begin to en masse to enter the Aerospace Forces only as part of the promising 55P6М Triumphator-M complex. And now we have such a picture: “Triumphs” are equipped only with 48H6X2 SAMs, their upgraded versions, which received the 48H6DM index, as well as 9М96Е / Е2 (in limited quantities). Our task is to determine the real level of threat from the presence in the C-400 only the above types of missiles, as well as the absence of 40Н6Е and the possible lack of 9М96Е2.

Despite the fact that 48H6Х2 anti-aircraft guided missiles (known to us by the C-300PMU-2 air defense missile system) are still equipped with semi-active radar homing heads, their energy and maneuverability capabilities remain high. The thrust impulse of a solid-propellant rocket engine is 245 s, and the maximum speed at the moment of fuel burnout is about 7560 km / h (7,1М), which is approximately 23% faster than the MIM-104C SAM system of the Patriot PAC-2 (5,76M) complex. The missiles are capable of intercepting high-precision hypersonic aerospace elements. weapons at speeds up to 2800 m / s on counter-intersecting trajectories, as well as hypersonic targets with speeds around 5М (1475 m / s) on catch-up trajectories to the rear hemisphere (the second variant is implemented at a distance of no more than 40 - 50 km from an anti-aircraft missile division C-300PMU-2 due to the speed drop of 48Н6-2 with aerodynamic drag.

High mobility 48N6E2 rocket is achieved through the use of advanced gas jet system of the thrust vector deflection provided gazodinamicheskimi ailerons in the nozzle channel TRD (Similar schemes can be found in missiles "air-to-air» MBDA «Meteor», AIM-9X «Sidewinder», MICA-EM / IR , PL-10E and “IRIS-T”). After the end of the period of operation of a solid-fuel engine, the tail aerodynamic control surfaces, mounted close to the tail stabilizers, are used in the control process. The missile 48H6Е2 developed by the Fakel ICB and the Avangard series mass production Avangard has a maximum overload limit of 35 units. and a combat radius of action in 200 km, and in characteristics significantly exceeds the 5B55PM SAM system of the C-300PS complex. The “trick” of this rocket is several modes of undermining the 180-kilogram high-explosive fragmentation warhead, one of which is the multi-point initiation mode, which forms the optimally directed fragmentation zone towards the target. This mode is used during the execution of the anti-missile interception of the OTB and often leads to the initiation of combat equipment of the enemy’s missile even without kinetic destruction. It is worth noting that the weight of the warhead of this missile 7,5 times the mass of warheads 9М96Е2, which makes it possible to destroy the equipment of the enemy’s missiles even more effectively even without a direct hit. The mass of the 48Н6Е2 rocket is 1900 kg.

The presence of the Triumph C-400 48H6Е2 anti-aircraft missile does not affect the performance of the complex, since the advanced multifunctional 92H6Е radar is now responsible for simultaneously capturing air targets at the exact tracking and shelling of 10. With this SAM “Triumph” can also work on ballistic targets at a distance of up to 50 km with an efficiency several times higher than the C-300PS / PMX1; 48N6E2 product continued to be updated more modern element base, which led to the modification 48N6P-01 complexes for C 300PM1 / 2, and then to 48N6DM (export index 48N6E3) intended for use in ammunition promiscuity C-400. Today, this anti-missile is the main means of defeating the “Four Hundreds”.

It is distinguished from 48H6EX2 by a slightly more powerful solid-propellant rocket engine, as well as the significantly improved element base of on-board radio-electronic equipment. With full preservation of the mass-dimensional indicators of 48Н6Е and 48Н6Х2 missiles, the maximum speed of 48Н6ДМ reached 8,47М (2500 m / s), and the range of 250 km. This, of course, is not 400 km, originally stated (with the possible integration of 40Н6 antimissiles), but definitely 1,56 times more than the range of “Patriot” MIM-104C SAM (160 km). The type and mass of the warhead, as well as the “smart” principle of its initiation, are similar to those used on 48Н6Е2. The new computational facilities of the 92H6E multipurpose radar antenna station and the 55K6E command and control center have expanded the speed limits of the target for the 48H6DM SAM from 10100 to 17280 km / h, making it possible to break far ahead in comparison with “Patriot P-17”, “NmxX”, which allowed us to go far ahead in comparison with “Patriot P-17”, “NmxX”, which made it possible to break far ahead in comparison with “Patriot P-17”, “NmxX”, which allowed us to take the lead far ahead in comparison with “Patriot P-17“ 174 .

The excellent maneuvering qualities of the 48H6DM missiles, as well as any other missiles with aerodynamic control principle, after the termination of the operation of the power plant are maintained to altitudes of 25-27 km. At altitudes of 35-37 km, they are sharply reduced due to the sparsity of the stratosphere, which does not allow intercepting highly maneuverable ballistic and aerodynamic hypersonic objects. The same high-altitude restrictions are available for the 5В55Р, 48Н6Е, MIM-104C, RIM-174 ERAM missiles and any other non-gas-dynamic "belts" of transverse control engines.

In the West, this issue is solved with the help of ERINT ERINT and Aster-30 systems of the Patriot PAC-3 and SAMP-T complexes, in our Chetyrehsotke and the future C-350 "Vityaz" - with the help of the 9МXNNXX / Е96 SAME. The latter are equipped with engines of transverse control of the DPU, the blocks of which are located closer to the center of mass of the rockets. As you know, they allow you to maneuver with overloading more than 2-20 units. even at altitudes of 25-35 km (and up to 40 units at altitudes up to 65 km), which is fantastic for SAMs with an aerodynamic control system. 5М9Е96 anti-missiles have a range of 2 km, and are capable even on the final part of the trajectory (at speed 150-700 m / s) to be rotated onto a maneuvering target with an 800 overload 20 km; ZNUR 25H48-6 at the same speed and altitude more than 2-8 units. not "squeeze". The 10М9Е96 is equipped with an active radar homing head, which makes it possible to hit targets in the “let-forget” mode, unloading the 2H92Е6 RPN to capture the following elements of a high-precision weapon, and also allows the “hit-to-kill” kinetic interception method to be captured. An important tactical point is the ability to hit strategic horizon cruise missiles flying at extremely low altitudes, by targeting third-party ground-based or airborne radar vehicles, which is not possible when using 2H48М missiles. Thus, the 6М9Е96 interceptor missiles can knock down the Tomahawk or the AGM-2B JASSM-ER CKR, which are sent to targets in the so-called "intellectual" mode, using the trajectory of the fly-by of divisional radars of illumination and targeting.

Meanwhile, starting around 2013-2014-gg., Some sources claim that the VKS have a serious shortage of missiles 9М96Е2, which are not fully received by the C-400 Triumph brigades. And, apparently, these guesses are explained by the really insufficient rates of production of the product in the shops of OJSC “Moscow Machine-Building Plant“ Avangard ”. The thing is that the shortened quadruple transport-launch modules (which fit only in 1 TPK for 48НХNUMXДМ) for the product 6М9Е96 were seen mainly at various aerospace exhibitions. In this 2 configuration, the 1P5SE85 launcher carries the 2 3H48DM and 6X9X96. As part of the regimental sets transmitted to the Aerospace Forces, we more often see standard quad 2P5SE85 only for 2Н48Х6 / ДМ missiles. And in the photo reports on the work of Avangard, photos with the stages of assembling 2's products are quite rare, and only 96 products appear. News not very pleasant, but, apparently, - a fact. How can the lack of missiles 9М96Е2 affect the anti-missile capabilities of anti-aircraft missile brigades equipped with C-400 "Triumph" divisions? The answer is simple.

Serious problems can be observed when repelling massive missileaviation enemy strikes (MRAU) with the use of low-altitude cruise missiles, which will very often "break through" air defense outside the radio horizon of divisional RPNs (only 35-40 km from the complexes). To hit the target outside the radio horizon, the 48N6DM missile will not be allowed by the semi-active radar seeker, which is software-bound and requires constant illumination of the 92N6E MRLS. Theoretically, there is a possibility of placing radar type 92Н6Е on the sides of the military transport An-124 "Ruslan", capable of solving the issue of over-the-horizon illumination for both "Three hundred" and "Chetyreh hundredok", but its practical implementation "in hardware" will face a large criticism due to the high cost of fuel required for many hours of duty of such "radio" "Ruslans" during the performance of missions of air and missile defense. Also, it will not be possible to intercept enemy high-speed maneuvering aircraft at altitudes over 32 km and destroy the "equipment" of maneuvering MRBM warheads at similar altitudes.

As for the absence in the arsenals of the C-400 “Triumph” anti-aircraft interceptors 40НХNUMX, the situation here is not so gloomy. First, the product intended for the exoatmospheric interception of aerospace elements of high-precision weapons will definitely go into service with the new Triumphator-M complex. Secondly, today its function is perfectly performed by the 6М9МВ ZUR-interceptor, developed on the basis of the 82М9М rocket and included in the ammunition of the new C-82B300 anti-aircraft missile system. From 4 to 2004, 2006М9МВ demonstrated the ability to destroy training targets at speeds up to 82 km / s (4,6М). Like the original modification, the new rocket is represented by an 15,6-spacing design “carrying cone”, but with more efficient fuel and gas-dynamic controls, which made it possible to achieve a maximum flight speed of 2 m / s, altitude — more than 2700-50 km, and also maneuver with overloads around xnumx units at altitudes over 70 km. The compact combat (25-I) stage, formed by the "carrying cone", has minimal aerodynamic resistance and deceleration speed at hypersonic speeds, and therefore, taking into account the gas-dynamic rudders, the rocket has the highest speeds of turning at such high altitudes.

In the anti-rocket 9M82МВ active radar homing is used, which is activated on the final leg of the flight; inertial guidance with radio correction is used at the starting and marching sections. Due to the active radar homing, 9М82МВ missile systems are capable of unloading continuous illumination radars located on the 9А82 / 83 PU, as well as the 9СXNNXXМ launcher, which are part of the C-32М ZNK 300-NG This already puts the new ZUR on a step higher than the 4H48DM family of missiles. The range of this rocket reached 6 km, which placed the updated military “Antey” much closer to the “Triumphator” than the sensational “Four-Hundred”.


Interceptor missiles developed for the C-500 "Prometheus" ("Triumphant-M")


An interesting quality of the C-300В family, including the C-300B4, is increased survivability in a difficult jamming environment, taking into account the huge number of enemy aircraft. Of great importance here is a rich nomenclature of divisional radar equipment. First, it is 2 type of the main radar detection, tracking and target designation: 9С15М2 “Review-3” and 9С32М, performing the functions of long-range radar detection, stitching of air routes and target designation for radar of continuous illumination. Secondly, the specialized radar of the program review with the PFAR 9С19М2 "Ginger", intended for the sector review of the airspace for the presence of small aerodynamic and ballistic targets of the enemy. Operating in the centimeter X-band "Ginger" has the highest accuracy of detection and tracking of CC (range accuracy -70 m), which is possible due to the narrow scanning beam 0,5 width degrees. The resolution and energy potential of this station far exceed the analogous parameters of MCNR 9C32М. The station is able to detect targets with 0,02 m2 EPR at a distance of at least 50 km. Thirdly, each C-300B4 battery has 2 launchers 9А82М for 9М82М / MB anti-missiles, and also 4 PU 9А83М for 9А83М. Each of the above PU is equipped with a continuous radiation radar to highlight air targets. Thus, even at the battery level, the Antey has more radar facilities in 6 times than the C-400, which has only one 92Н6Е.

One C-300B4 division is significantly more advanced than the C-300 / 400 family. It includes 4 batteries, each of which has a multifunctional 9C32М missile guidance station, and therefore destroy the C-300B4 division, which is several times more complicated than the Favorite or Triumph division. From all we make several unambiguous conclusions.

1. The absence of long-range interceptor missiles with the 40H6 index in service with the Triumph C-400 airborne missiles does not carry such a serious threat to the survivability and network-centric abilities of our air defense systems, like the possible acute shortage of the “gas-dynamic” 996XXNX SAMs. The latter make it possible to destroy all types of WTO in the endoatmospheric segment of aerospace, which interceptors of the type 2H48DM are not fully capable of.

2. The functions of the 40Н6 interceptor missiles, which should appear in service with the advanced systems Triumphant-M, for several years will be partially entrusted to the 9М82МВ interceptors of the С-300В4 complexes, which have approximate tactical and technical characteristics. The 9М82МВ rockets are approximately 2 times larger than the 48Н6ДМ ZUR missiles in terms of the basic performance characteristics and capabilities of the fight against ballistic targets. Anti-missile complex "Triumphant-M" will begin to enter into service with the VC 2018 year. Most likely, its ammunition will include 3 of the main types of anti-missile missiles, 40H6, 77H6-H and 77H6-H1. They will hit BCs at ranges up to 600 km and altitudes of 200-250 km. The integration of the 9М96Е / Е2 and 48Н6ДМ ZUR from the "Triumph" kit, designed to intercept aerodynamic objects and FBGs, is also possible. The "Five Hundreds" will block all the gaps in the C-400 complexes observed today from the absence or shortage of missiles of the 40H6 and 9М96Х2 types.

Moreover, promising radar tools and an automated air defense link management system (mobile sector radar mars Mars, RPN 76 / 77Т6 and automated systems 97Л6 Vlastrain-TP) are optimized for intercepting targets moving at speeds up to 25200 km / h / XNXXX with). All elements of the Triumphant-M divisions will interface with the multifunctional Sky-M RLC, the only stations capable of detecting ballistic missiles in the initial part of the trajectory from a distance of 7 km.

3. An important part of maintaining the decent anti-missile qualities of our aerospace forces during the final stages of the Triumphant-M SAM system should be acceleration of the adoption rate of the promising anti-aircraft C-350 (50Р6А) anti-missile systems with simultaneous intensification of the large-scale XNHXXXXXXXXA rocket production XNXXXXA. of them. The complex possesses outstanding qualities in the implementation of both all-round air and missile defense against unobtrusive tactical aviation and massed rocket and air strikes by anti-radar missiles and other WTO (including OTBR), as well as sector-wide anti-missile defense plans of which include such objects , like: tactical fighter / EW F / A-9G “Growler” fighter / aircraft, small-size maneuvering combat units in the “cloud” of fake targets, Fighter X-Numx generation F-96A and F-2A, etc.


Main advantages Thanks to ARGSN of the 350М8Е12 missiles, the complex has the possibility of hitting low-level over-horizon VTS with the use of additional targeting means, but one question about Vityaz remains open. For self-defeat of the KR, the 50H6 antenna post must be equipped with a universal tower of the 9В96М type, but in official sources nothing is said about such a point in the tactical-technical task; Meanwhile, a similar tower is needed for the Vityaz, like water and air.

As you can see, before the launch of the Triumfator-M complex on combat duty, our ground-based VKS can form a very worthy anti-missile “umbrella”, which is largely due to the promising version of the C-300B4 air defense system and the 9М82MV air defense system. But issues related to the lack of a series of 9М96Е2 antimissiles for completing the С-400, as well as the slow refinement of the Vityaz C-350 complex, can not but cause serious concern in the circles of knowledgeable amateurs of domestic military equipment.

Information sources:
http://forum.militaryparitet.com/viewtopic.php?id=12933
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-593.html
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-373.html
29 comments
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  1. +7
    1 February 2017 06: 46
    It seems everything is scientifically, informative. Inaccessible only to a normal person. The title is generally "chic." Because of him, and opened. And then all the "best in the world", "there are no analogues." And here ... what a "view".
    1. +22
      1 February 2017 07: 43
      Quote: arkadack
      It seems everything is scientifically, informative.
      Yes, very scientific, very.
      An important tactical point is the ability to destroy horizontal strategic cruise missiles flying at extremely low altitudes, by targeting third-party ground or air-based radar systems, which is not possible when using 48Н6DM missiles. Thus, 9M96E2 interceptors can shoot down Tomahawk or AGM-158B JASSM-ER
      The author, tell me better how this mechanism is implemented in practice? What "third-party" radar facilities are integrated into the C-400 control channels? The mechanism of central control from third-party tools is debugged, tested, implemented in combat regiments? How is target information transmitted to an air defense system? And if the target maneuvers, can a "third-party" weapon directly bypass the CP air defense to transmit data to a missile or CP air defense system so that it corrects the trajectory to the point of meeting with the target?
      Here, for example, for sailors at the 12341 MRC, external horizontal target designation is implemented by a special “success” operating mode. Not with anyone, and not with anyone, but only with a designator that has interface equipment. First, a communication channel is established, antennas for data transmission are oriented, and then the picture from the control center is transmitted to the ship. So the question is - does the air defense system have such equipment? And on the designators?
      Theoretically, there is the possibility of deploying 92Н6Е radars on the sides of the An-124 Ruslan military transport
      Very, very theoretical. And why exactly is Ruslan? Will the antenna on the blue electrical tape be tied to it? Maybe it's better to finish the A-50, equipping it with data transmission equipment for air defense systems?
      Meanwhile, starting around the 2013-2014-years., Some sources claim that the airborne forces are experiencing a serious shortage of 9М96Е2 missiles, which are not fully supplied to the S-400 Triumph brigades
      Here, of course, everything is shrouded in fog, but something seems to me a more correct wording "DO NOT fully enter service". I did not see a single mention of the presence of these missiles in combat units, only advertising shots. Well, if I'm wrong.
      Thus, even at the battery level, Antei has 6 times more radar than C-400, which has only one 92N6E radar.
      One C-300В4 division is significantly more extended than the C-300 / 400 family. It includes 4 batteries, each of which has a multi-functional missile guidance station 9С32М, and therefore destroy the S-300В4 division at times more difficult than the Favorite or Triumph division.
      The author needs to understand the terms. As far back as 10 years ago, I asked this question to military air defense personnel: what kind of devil is your division called a battery? Those jokingly answered: to confuse the enemy! And still confused - for example, the author of the article. It’s just that which is called a division for air defense officers, is called a battery for land explorers. And in order not to run into this pitfall, you need to turn to the manufacturers - they have the concept of "anti-aircraft missile system." This is the minimum set of tools for independent combat operations. So, one of the air defense systems of the land hunters is a battery. And one anti-aircraft defense system for air defense personnel is a division. So in reality the survivability of the S-300 air defense system is equal to the survivability of the S-400 air defense system.
      1. +7
        1 February 2017 11: 22
        Quote: Alex_59
        I asked this question 10 years ago to the military air defense personnel: what kind of devil is your division called a battery? Those jokingly answered: to confuse the enemy! And still confused - for example, the author of the article. It’s just that which is called a division for air defense officers, is called a battery for land explorers.

        good
        Quote: Alex_59
        And one anti-aircraft defense system for air defense personnel is a division.

        In fact, a division is one firing channel. I cannot say how things are now, but in the 80s there were several shooting channels on the S-200 air defense system, depending on the configuration, from two or more. So the S-200 air defense system was called a group of divisions ... request hi
        Quote: Alex_59
        So in reality, the survivability of the S-300V air defense system is equal to the survivability of the S-400 air defense system.

        Most likely, this is true. That's just air defense systems were created to combat enemy aircraft, but now the concept of delivering NATO attacks is different, they will be hollowed by cruise missiles from a long distance, at least 1000 km. And if with large-sized missile systems everything is more or less normal, then the fight against small missiles that have appeared recently with a range of at least 1000 km raises questions. Our air defense with a large number of such missiles without the use of special charges simply can not cope. And to shoot at small missiles with fools that are almost 10 times their size is no economy!
        1. 0
          15 March 2020 08: 18
          Shells are needed for this)))
      2. +2
        1 February 2017 12: 50
        Regarding the connection, you can say. Yes. there are opportunities. But how they are implemented is secret. We were not taught at the department, because There was no admission. Therefore, this is not for open discussion.

        About the items. We were taught something like this. The division consists of Target Designation Tools (i.e., in fact, a cabin with a locator, but for hospitals in my time they still had a low-altitude detector and it was considered a separate unit), Means of destruction (actually PU), Other services.
        Means of destruction, i.e. PU, and were called a battery. Moreover, since Since there are different PUs, then the standard set of 1 control PUs (I don’t remember exactly what it is called) + 2 simple ones are called a battery.
        Accordingly, the Division consists of Detection Tools, which consist of at least 1 locator, and up to 4 batteries. Plus means of support (communication, energy supply and other necessary trifle).
  2. +6
    1 February 2017 08: 58
    Quote: Alex_59
    in reality, the survivability of the S-300V air defense system is equal to the survivability of the S-400 air defense system.

    In reality, the air defense systems are at their feet. The commanders have known since the wars in Vietnam and Syria. The faster you run, (change your position, disguise), the longer you live! Thanks to the author for our forgotten S-350. Maybe it’s for the best. He’s now at It’s at the forefront. Although it doesn’t seem to exist. It may be in the circles of knowledgeable lovers of Russian military equipment. This is still not necessary.
  3. +1
    1 February 2017 11: 16
    It is difficult for an amateur to understand all these calculations about the differences, positive and negative properties of the whole system in the rocket industry. God forbid that there would be more excellent specialist patriots like the glorious Queen in the industry, and not talkers and robbers
    1. +3
      1 February 2017 11: 57
      The specialist should be a professional in his field, and not some kind of patriot.
      Experience shows that the latter are very often talkers and plunderers.
  4. +2
    1 February 2017 11: 31
    Moscow must admit that the radar and air defense system Redoubt program failed completely and stop spending huge amounts of money on this black hole. ''
    1. +2
      1 February 2017 12: 43
      Quote: Cat was fucking
      Moscow must admit that the radar and air defense system Redoubt program failed completely and stop spending huge amounts of money on this black hole. ''

      Yes, you need the General Staff!
      Can you give some arguments?
      According to the program of the Poliment-Redoubt marine complexes, there are many questions, even very many, but this does not mean that it is completely failed! Here it is worth recalling how the same Fort was developed. Not in one year and not in two!
      But cutting off the program now means throwing away the money spent over the years of work and spit on the work of scientists and designers! It’s too late already, you have to rattle and do not hesitate, they rattle with time! And we must understand that Redoubt will come for a long time, as the same Fort and will improve, there is no doubt!
      1. +1
        1 February 2017 15: 25
        1) Redoubts have been developing longer than the Fort, it cost more and the result is zero, and taking into account the cost of building an unworkable head 22350 under Redoubt, it costs enormously. 2) How much more time and money do you think you need to spend on fine-tuning Reduta ?! 3) Doesn’t it seem to you that if they spend another 7-10 years and a ton of money on debugging Redoubt, then Russia will either receive a morally outdated air defense system that will cost a fortune of gold, or will receive nothing but losses, but the program will still have to be closed , as unpromising, because there are no guarantees that Redoubt will still be able to bring to mind NO ?!
        1. +1
          1 February 2017 16: 31
          In fact, Redoubt has a wider range of missiles, compared with Fort. At least there are 9N100 short-range missiles, in pedivics they write with infrared seeker, but according to other information with telecontrol. Those. allows you to abandon the additional short-range complex.

          As far as I know, the problem is in these missiles, they should go on the S-350.
          1. +1
            1 February 2017 19: 02
            You are mistaken, the problem is just in the Redoubt radar, which does not exist, it does not work in medium and long-range missiles, which also do not, they do not fly, and if they fly, they fall, and if they don’t fall, they don’t hit the target. The melee missile just works, this is a version of an aircraft missile that was simply oversized, but it has a range of only 15-18 km, against 50-70 km from the Shtil air defense system.
            1. +1
              1 February 2017 19: 27
              What the hell? wassat Missiles have long been on land complexes since the Triumph. Brains to them too.
              1. +1
                1 February 2017 19: 31
                There are missiles, only these are missiles of another production association, which, unlike the Rudutkins, works and does not wipe their pants.
                1. +1
                  1 February 2017 20: 48
                  So, there are already well-developed guidance systems, the very essence of C-complexes in modularity, especially since the basis has been worked out on land complexes.
        2. 0
          1 February 2017 17: 50
          Quote: Cat was fucking
          1) Redoubts are being developed longer than Fort

          Do not forget when and in which country the Fort was developed, what funding was there! Plus the resources of a huge country, material and technical and scientific base! And they didn’t steal everyone who was not lazy!
          it cost more

          I do not presume to judge, because I do not have the data.
          If you have such data, I would like to see them, for both complexes, in terms of modern money!
          the result is zero, and taking into account the cost of construction under Redoubt of the combat-ready spike 22350, the costs for it are huge

          The result is far from zero. The complex is there, but not brought to mind. The problem is being solved.
          How much more time and money do you think you need to spend on fine-tuning Redoubt?

          Spend as much as you need! In my opinion, another year or two. I won’t say for money, because I don’t know and have nothing to do with Almaz-Antei. However, just like you ...
          Russia will either receive a morally obsolete air defense system that will cost a fortune of gold

          For the tasks that are set before frigates of pr.22350, it will not become obsolete in 10 years, believe me
          , but the program will still have to be closed, as unpromising, because there are no guarantees that Redoubt will still be able to bring to mind NO?

          Already not close. Too much invested. They will finish it until they turn blue!
          And about guarantees ... It all depends on the will of the management. Are conclusions drawn from errors? And of course from the patience of the customer.
          1. +1
            1 February 2017 19: 06
            1) What will happen in 10 years, we don’t know and let's not guess, especially since electronics is developing and aging rapidly, so the developments of 20 years ago are not interesting to anyone and you know this no worse than me. The S-300V4 air defense system is a new air defense system with a new missile and from the Soviet complex it has only a name. Money should be given to those who really work, and those who make Redoubt and rockets to him only take money, the result is zero. The S-400 SAM has new missiles from the S-300V4, with a range of 350-400 km. The S-400 itself is essentially absent, as is Redut, because they tried to make them at the same factory. 2) Did Redut's developers give a personal guarantee that they will bring the complex to mind in 2 years ?! Do not give ! So let’s lower your fantasies. 3) There is a Shtil air defense system, because it works, but there is no Redoubt air defense system, there is a useless pile of junk that does not work and there are no guarantees that it will ever work at all!
            1. +2
              1 February 2017 20: 33
              Quote: Cat was fucking
              1) But do Redut developers give a personal guarantee that they will bring the complex to mind through 2 years ?! Do not give ! So let’s lower your fantasies.

              You already decide what you want from me!
              How much more time and money do you think you need to spend on fine-tuning Redoubt?

              Your words? Yours! How many in my opinion I wrote! What for reproaches ?!
              What will happen in 10 years, we don’t know and let's not guess, especially since electronics is developing and aging rapidly, so the development of 20 summer ago is of no interest to anyone and you know it no worse than me

              What is there to know ?!
              They will modernize both the elemental base and missiles, and expand the range.
              The concept of the complex will remain unchanged.
              Everything is logical! Ground-based air defense systems go the same way.
              We have a whole line of redoubt corvettes and frigates in perspective (22350), and what do you propose to do with them? Needle corvettes and a new project of frigates to draw ?! So it will result in such a waste that refining the air defense system will seem like a fairy tale!
              There is a Shtil air defense system because it works, but there is no Redoubt air defense system, there is a useless pile of junk that does not work and there are no guarantees that it will ever work

              Read the TTX Calm and compare with Redoubt!
              Yes there is nothing to compare! Bringing a new complex and an old canet in the summer! This is not even yesterday, but the day before yesterday!

              In fact, we can argue hoarse here. I myself am not enthusiastic about the problems in the trials and have repeatedly poked my nose at these problems with local idiots! Redoubt has no alternative, at least for now! It will cost too much to minimize the program and develop it from scratch!
              1. +2
                2 February 2017 06: 51
                So, according to Redoubt, the problems with the missiles seem to be not big, the main (as far as I read on this topic) is the problem of transferring the signal of the tracking target from one antenna to another. It seems that when the signal is transmitted, the guidance channel is lost and therefore the missiles miss. And since everyone was crammed into one complex (there are no separate target designation stations), they are looking for the problem inside the complex. Although without transmitting a signal, all missiles confidently hit targets. Therefore, they finish him, because not everything is bad with him.
                1. +1
                  2 February 2017 12: 19
                  There are huge problems with Redoubt. There is no radar, there are no medium and long-range missiles, and the trash that supposedly is not working.
              2. +1
                2 February 2017 12: 18
                For corvettes, melee air defense missiles may be enough, but not for frigates, and Calm today is superior to Redoubt in all respects and the government of the Russian Federation is high time to raise the question a bit and either give the developers of Reduta one last chance for refinement, but no more than 2 years and under personal guarantees developers and their personal responsibility for the result, or to close the project and the sooner the better, and to remake 22350 under the Shtil air defense system, it at least provides fire for 12 targets at once, at a distance of 50-70 km and Redoubt in its current form about such characteristics only dream. You write nonsense. It’s high time to throw the redoubts in the trash, along with those who took money for it and start messing with the S-300B4 and Pantsyr-S1 air defense systems. At least these systems work, not only the Redoubt, and the S-400 is essentially no what is this S-300B4 with a new missile at 350-400 km. Money needs to be given to those who can and knows how to work, and not to Medvedev’s relatives and other furniture makers who don’t know anything about the military-industrial complex.
                1. 0
                  3 February 2017 01: 15
                  So that’s the problem that “Poliment-Redoubt” also does design bombs, like S-300B4, S-400 air defense systems, namely Almaz-Antey .... As with any large company, different groups of designers work on different tasks. To this we must add that what they are doing these developments according to the technical requirements that the customer sets .... According to Calm, it also needs to be changed, since the speed of the intercepted object does not suit the military anymore, just replacing the rocket is not enough (changing almost all of the stuffing will have to be done, and again all this should be coordinated with the rocket, it’s easier to make a new complex from scratch), which is why the question is about the new complex. And for Redoubt there are still short- and medium-range missiles and they fly well, but target designation works poorly because they are smeared, there is not only long-range (missile), but in fact and in the country's air defense there are very few .....
                  1. +1
                    3 February 2017 12: 58
                    1) For short-range missiles provided for Redoubt, target designation is not necessary, it is a numbed aviation missile and it goes to the target itself, immediately after launch, shot-forgot. But neither radar, nor medium- and long-range missiles are present, what is not working. 2) Calm may not be the most modern system, but Calm is better than Redoubt in its current form. 3) You are mistaken about missiles. The S-400 with the 40H6 missile, which does not fly, was developed by the Novator experimental design bureau, and this office plundered money without any result. What now exists and works is the S-300V4, with a 9M82MV missile with a launch range of 350-400 km and the new 9M82MD, with a range of 400 km or more, but these systems were developed by the Fakel engineering design bureau. So the firms are different.
                    1. 0
                      15 March 2020 08: 33
                      Quote: Cat was fucking
                      1) For short-range missiles provided for Redoubt, target designation is not necessary, it is a numbed aviation missile and it goes to the target itself, immediately after launch, shot-forgot. But neither radar, nor medium- and long-range missiles are present, what is not working. 2) Calm may not be the most modern system, but Calm is better than Redoubt in its current form. 3) You are mistaken about missiles. The S-400 with the 40H6 missile, which does not fly, was developed by the Novator experimental design bureau, and this office plundered money without any result. What now exists and works is the S-300V4, with a 9M82MV missile with a launch range of 350-400 km and the new 9M82MD, with a range of 400 km or more, but these systems were developed by the Fakel engineering design bureau. So the firms are different.

                      Do you even understand what you are talking about?
                2. 0
                  15 March 2020 08: 32
                  and Calm today surpasses Redoubt in all respects and the government of the Russian Federation
                  Why do you emphasize the country (RF), the conclusion suggests itself that you are not from Russia. And you pulled up with your outdated Calm, can we still return the "mosinka" instead of AK? Reliable and superior in all respects?))))
  5. 0
    2 February 2017 14: 14
    kapets. I always thought that the presence of the s-500 in the troops would close the need to hold all s-300 and s-400 in the same way. three hundred and 100500 modifications in general, I'm not even trying to figure out why they are still being released and why they are better than 400, why they cannot be replaced with one unified complex ???
    There should be some UKKS for all types of missiles: a mine was given under a long-range missile, into which we can shove say 4 for the neighbor. As in the case of the redoubt.
    In short, the head is spinning. There are only dozens of missile types!
    1. 0
      15 March 2020 08: 38
      Quote: silver_roman
      kapets. I always thought that the presence of the s-500 in the troops would close the need to hold all s-300 and s-400 in the same way. three hundred and 100500 modifications in general, I'm not even trying to figure out why they are still being released and why they are better than 400, why they cannot be replaced with one unified complex ???
      There should be some UKKS for all types of missiles: a mine was given under a long-range missile, into which we can shove say 4 for the neighbor. As in the case of the redoubt.
      In short, the head is spinning. There are only dozens of missile types!

      Because there is no money. And you have to modernize the old. Plus, while you are cutting a new rocket, new threats appear and so on endlessly. I understand that there is also inconsistency. But the ovs have the same dregs. A lot of rockets. It is impossible to make one universal missile, for example, a missile designed to intercept warheads of a ballistic missile, too expensive to intercept conventional aircraft. And for this there are conventional rockets and more "cool" ones. Plus, you need short-range missiles. Plus we just have air defense (S-300P and S-400) and air defense for the army (S-300V), and each has its own missile. With the given performance characteristics and performance characteristics.
  6. +1
    April 27 2017 16: 15
    Yeah. Did did. Not completed. As a result, "I didn’t really want to." As with Angara A-5V approximately.