Rogozin: the three already finished "Protons" will replace the engines

The launches of Proton-M carriers will resume in a few months, and you will have to disassemble 3 ready-made rockets on which the engines will be replaced, reports Defence.ru with reference to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

He commissioned the leader of the space engine industry NPO "Energomash" to immediately bring order to the Voronezh Mechanical Plant, which allowed the marriage. All those responsible for the substitution of technology and documentation will be severely punished. Three "Proton-M" will be disassembled, engines 2-th and 3-th steps - replaced. Proton-M launches will be resumed via 3,5 of the month

wrote Rogozin on Twitter.

On Wednesday, Russian media reported that Roskosmos decided to withdraw all engines 2 and 3 to the Proton-M launchers to the Voronezh Plant. During the investigation, it was established that “illiquid components” were used when assembling products. "In particular, instead of materials containing precious metals, which should be used on this type of engine, less heat-resistant materials were used, which are used in other types of engines produced at Vyksa Metallurgy Plant," the report said.

At the same time, the replacement of materials went unnoticed by numerous supervisors. Under investigation.

Comments

[hirurg]

Such things should be punished as treason.

[himRa]

As history shows, one must act harshly, investigate and punish the perpetrators
cut amputation so that there is no gangrene

[bouncyhunter]

Launches of Proton-M carriers will resume in a few months, and it will be necessary to disassemble 3 ready-made rockets on which engines will be replaced

Yes, the launch dates will move. Yes, additional costs. But it’s better to replace engines than collect debris.

[cniza]

Hello Pasha, it’s good that they found out on time ... you need to find the "wise men" and tin to the fullest.

[bouncyhunter]

My respect, Vitya! I hope they will find and punish the truly guilty, and not the "switchman" ...

[cniza]

I'd like to believe, but practice does not confirm this, alas.

[g1v2]

If you punish one, new ones will appear. Of course it is necessary to punish, but do not think that this will solve the problem. This is about something else.
In my opinion, the state corporation should be rigidly structured with a single management vertical and responsible at each stage. That there was a specific person managing a specific piece of corporation and responsible for it. For example, for all the production of rocket engines for all missiles in different plants. Well, we must look for a serious man who would stand at the head of the state corporation and build her work. Like Sechin or Miller, but from Roskosmos. As practice shows in such cases, everything is decided by the person at the head. Dissolve subordinates - marriage will go from top to bottom, build a strict order, control and accountability - and the structure will work as a mechanism. Again, structuring is needed in procurement, technology, and so on. So that any serious deviations from the technology were visible even at the procurement level. They used to buy precious metals for production, but now there’s no or less - what is the reason?

[Mikhail3]

Within the framework of capitalism, your proposal is unrealistic. In the framework of capitalism, space is generally impossible. Werner von Braun did everything under Hitler, Korolev under Stalin started ...
Space is either socialism or a monarchy. And so - here you have Curiosity, have fun ...

[Bayonet]

Quote: Mikhail3

In the framework of capitalism, space is generally impossible. Werner von Braun did everything under Hitler,

And under Hitler, was communism?
I do not want to remind once again of NASA's achievements in the study of the planets of the solar system and deep space - I see it still will not work!

[Mikhail3]

Quote: Bayonet

And under Hitler, was communism?

No, under Hitler there was National Socialism, a system very cannibalistic. But this was one of those social devices in which REAL technical development was possible.
I do not defend National Socialism, our grandfathers trampled it and that’s good. But until the Sovereign (no matter how he is called) does not identify himself, openly and openly, with his country, does not incur a debt for it and does not require his subjects to fulfill their duty as well, development is impossible.
What convincingly showed us the 20 century. Capitalism somehow developed its capabilities only because it was engaged in self-hypnosis. I instilled in myself that the USSR was about to shoot him, capitalism. A little trunk took away from the back of the head - capitalism was blown away, fell, rotted and rotten. Alas.

[g1v2]

But did the same Elon Musk take up space because he was a communist? In my opinion he wants to earn money, no? Space is not only an idea - it is also specific things that are about money. Television, navigation, communications, or meteorology are also outer space, and not only the state is engaged in this completely. Another thing is that space is expensive and not everyone can afford it. But large corporations are also interested in them. New materials, new opportunities, new technologies, new sources of resources - this is also space and also capitalism.

[Wasiliy1985]

They made laugh - "ILON MASK" - Read: "Feces"
Is the "Windows @ Microsoft" brand known to everyone?
Marketing of nothing representing "guano", supported by "dad-mom, family."
Who can argue with me reasonably? I repeat - reasonedly!

[Bayonet]

Quote: Wasiliy1985

Who can argue with me reasonably?

What is the point of arguing with you? The achievements of the Mask companies are known to all, so why waste time? Perhaps you would argue that the Americans were not on the moon? So it is also to a certain audience. New Mukhin or what?

[Bayonet]

Quote: Wasiliy1985

Who can argue with me reasonably?

According to experts from the MSTU. Bauman, the cost of launching a reusable first stage rocket is reduced by 20-30% compared with conventional carriers.
Argue with them!

[Mikhail3]

Elon Musk took up “space” because he is a thief and a con man. He skillfully welds money on budget American contracts and disciplinedly transfers this money to “who needs it,” that is, to the one who transfers it to his accounts.

[cap]

Quote: Mikhail3

Within the framework of capitalism, your proposal is unrealistic. In the framework of capitalism, space is generally impossible. Werner von Braun did everything under Hitler, Korolev under Stalin started ...
Space is either socialism or a monarchy. And so - here you have Curiosity, have fun ...

Quote: g1v2

As practice shows in such cases, everything is decided by the person at the head. Dissolve subordinates - marriage will go from top to bottom, build a strict order, control and accountability - and the structure will work as a mechanism. Again, structuring is needed in procurement, technology, and so on. So that any serious deviations from the technology were visible even at the procurement level.

Lavrenty Pavlovich? It is interesting to imagine his reaction to such news, of course this is a joke, but still.

[sa-ag]

Quote: g1v2

Well, we must look for a serious man who would stand at the head of the state corporation and build her work. Type Sechin or Miller

So now it’s exactly the type you brought in that works, and therefore the mess

[g1v2]

Rosneft was the sixth in Russia, became the first in the world. Gazprom - pressed 34 percent of the European market. These two companies are moving not only mining, but also domestic shipbuilding, engineering, metallurgy and just bring civilization to where only the bears shit before them. In my opinion, these two guys are doing their job.
Well, about the nonsense that some oligarchs earn only from oil and gas, there’s no point in even talking. It is enough to compare your standard of living at the beginning of 2014 (before the fall in hydrocarbon prices) and at the end of 2015. This difference in living standards is what an ordinary Russian has from oil and gas. I'm not talking about different creators, marketers, sales of luxury goods, etc., which in many ways simply lost their jobs in 2015.

[Senior manager]

That’s where the “serious guy” is to find the prime minister, whose money will have an account.

[Cube123]

Quote: g1v2

If you punish one, new ones will appear. Of course it is necessary to punish, but do not think that this will solve the problem. This is about something else.

Serdyukovsky dispersal of the military representative’s apparatus played a small role.

[NEXUS]

Quote: himRa

cut amputation so that there is no gangrene

I don’t know how it will be with “cut and amputate”, but ... finally, the interest of our leadership is not to pick their nose, but to do business. Not so long ago, Protons fell with expensive equipment, which affected not only our state wallet, but also the prestige of the entire state, as a party offering satellite orbiting services.
Maybe the East will finally take seriously and the same Angara-5 finally complete.

[Liberoid-]

Quote: hirurg

Such things should be punished as treason.

A lot of these ... already!

And Rogozin including ..... Balabol!

[jovanni]

Quote: Liberoid

And Rogozin including ..... Balabol!

This is no joke. Well, about trampolines. Here it is necessary to work, and not only in language ...

[hirurg]

Cosmodrome ..., now the engines ....
It is necessary to coat in full.

[Liberoid-]

Quote: hirurg

Cosmodrome ..., now the engines ....
It is necessary to coat in full.

This is all sabotage, of pure water ... Let us already recognize all this ... The West has connected all its hidden monsters, if only Russia had not launched this Cosmodrome!

It’s time to already remember how our grandfathers and great-grandfathers achieved the task ...

[Bayonet]

Quote: Liberoid

And Rogozin including ..... Balabol!

[Liberoid-]

Of course the bayonet! I am awarded and awarded ...))) How to drive a wolf under shots and shoot ...

[Bayonet]

Quote: Liberoid

Of course the bayonet! I am awarded and awarded ...))) How to drive a wolf under shots and shoot ...

But you are reborn again! Well done!

[Mar.Tirah]

Something is going wrong with us. Capitalism is incompatible with command and administrative activities. One report and Rogozin’s promises cannot be corrected. You need to change the approach to this problem. And not only here. This has not happened in the history of Russian and Soviet cosmonautics. All engines manufactured at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant require inspection and replacement. This means that before the end of all procedures, Russia simply cannot launch anything into space.

[Alex_Tug]

Capitalism is not compatible with command and administrative activities.

Who is the shareholder of the plant? State? Then compatible. If not, then show all bills from the accident to auctioneers. They will quickly understand.

[Genry]

Quote: Mar. Tira

Capitalism is not compatible with command and administrative activities.

But in China, haven't they combined?

Quote: Mar. Tira

Only reports, and Rogozin's promises, cannot fix the situation.

Rogozin, in this case, just opened the drain hole, thin-thin. But how much more did they discover that the company was not entrusted with eliminating hack-work and transferred the engines to a non-native manufacturer - this is the main layer of missing information.

[himRa]

Launches of Proton-M carriers will resume in a few months, and it will be necessary to disassemble 3 ready-made rockets on which engines will be replaced

It is sad that this will lead to a lag behind the schedule, but it is better than an accident!

[Kasym]

Schedule of nonsense - you can catch up. The main thing is that the reason is found. Proton is a necessary and good rocket. But such managers in white-collar workers who nearly ruined her will now put on a black robe. Already at the enemy’s enemies, some wrote down the accident. And everything is more banal - they steal.

[iliitchitch]

What they do something. In the mess. And the punishment will be terrible, they will fire me, I suppose.
It’s not enough to put to the wall. And under the Soviet Union, everything flew and worked. You start nostalgic.

[yuriy55]

And under the Soviet Union, everything flew and worked.

In this situation, in the economy and accelerated capitalist construction, the USSR will long be an example in many ways ... And when you look at some figures, you begin to understand why Stalin is a tyrant who has nowhere to even put up a monument in the country, and Yeltsin is a “Hero” whose house is an eyesore will stand still for a long time ... until demolished ...

[nov_tech.vrn]

the CEO already quit, and it suddenly became clear that the equipment needed to be modernized, and the workers were paid pennies

[Bayonet]

Quote: iliitch

And under the Soviet Union, everything flew and worked. You start nostalgic.

Unsuccessful launches were for everyone and always, both here and in other countries. Here are some examples:
Emergency launches from the Baikonur Cosmodrome.
Date Launcher Payload Note
April 27, 1958 R-7 "Object-D"
September 23, 1958 Vostok-L 8K72 AMS "Luna-1A"
October 11, 1958 Vostok-L 8K72 AMS "Luna-1B"
December 14, 1958 Vostok-L 8K72 AMS "Luna-1S"
June 18, 1959 Vostok-L 8K72 AMS "Luna-2A"
April 15, 1960 Vostok-L 8K72 AMS "Luna-4A" [E-3, ser. #1]
April 19, 1960 Vostok-L 8K72 AMS "Luna-4B" [E-3]
July 28, 1960 Vostok 8K72 Satellite ship Accident of the 1st stage of the launch vehicle
October 10, 1960 Molniya (launcher) 8K78 AMS "Mars" (1M series No. 1)
October 14, 1960 Molniya (launcher) 8K78 AMS "Mars" (1M series No. 2)
December 22, 1960 Vostok 8K72 Satellite ship ["Vostok-1", ser. No. 4] Accident of the 3rd stage of the launch vehicle
December 11, 1961 Vostok 8K72 Zenit-2
June 1, 1962 Vostok 8A92 Zenit-2 series No. 3
February 3, 1963 Molniya (launcher) 8K78L AMS to the Moon "E-6" series No. 2
February 6, 1970 Proton-K AMS to the Moon "E-8-5"
August 8, 1970 Proton-K model of the Raduga satellite
In the USSR - 4 launches of Proton (1 failure), 197 launches of Proton-K (of which 22 failures). Total, 23 failures from 201 launches.
About H-1 is better not to remember! The astronauts also perished, their eternal memory ...
Nostalgic on!

[Liberoid-]

Well done bayonet ... How did you comb all of us here ...!

[Bayonet]

Quote: Liberoid

.How you combed us all here ...!

No dear, I was not going to comb anyone, just lie why - "everything flew, everything worked ...", and now what - did everything disappear?

[iliitchitch]

Quote: Bayonet

Unsuccessful launches were for everyone and always, both here and in other countries.

Well, it's not a motorcycle. "If you don’t go back, then who will go forward?" Something like that with the Strugatsky. Well said.

[Bayonet]

Quote: iliitch

Something like that with the Strugatsky. Well said.

I respect the Strugatsky from childhood!

[Mikhail3]

Quote: Bayonet

About H-1 is better not to remember! The astronauts also perished, their eternal memory ...
Nostalgic on!

So we will do it. Nostalgic for the times when we were moving forward. Through failures, explosions, when people died ... and we flew into space. Paving the way for Humanity. They were the first to take a hit, but did not give up. When we were wrong, and didn’t steal rare earths on our pocket. When they helped each other and did not seek to steal and flee. When they worked for the future of mankind, and not for a little village in a country from which thieves are not issued.
We are compassionate for the times when we lived, how we should live. As soon as a real person can live.

[Mar.Tirah]

Quote: Alex_Tug

Capitalism is not compatible with command and administrative activities.

Who is the shareholder of the plant? State? Then compatible. If not, then show all bills from the accident to auctioneers. They will quickly understand.

But are they the first ones? It’s just that the industry is so significant. You look at what they are doing all over the country. They are already ignoring direct presidential decrees. And how do they relate to the workers? Look what attitude was there in Soviet times, salaries, benefits, and increased pensions? And what Now. Although I do not like Stalin, how can I not remember?

[Dekabrist]

Even those who scold the USSR still think like in the USSR. Yes, the shareholders of this plant are now the STATE. What they themselves will punish and shoot The capitalist state is called upon to protect the interests of the capitalists, and in the phase of the initial plunder of capital this is especially clearly seen.
There are many such facts. It's just that it's too noticeable with missiles when it falls. So there will be no executions. So, they put someone in a corner.

[Genry]

And what, under the USSR, they did not steal and do not hack?
There was no OBKhSS, KGB and other punitive organs?

[Bayonet]

Quote: Genry

And what, under the USSR, they did not steal and do not hack?

They pulled everything they could! Here about one told how he roll a platinum (or with a platinum coating) mesh and fenced the garden! ( ) The whole plant stood on the ears! Thank god they found

[creak]

Quote: Bayonet

They pulled everything they could!

There was such a joke on this topic:
Carry every nail from work
You are the boss here, not the guest.
And how they stole at meat processing plants and vegetable bases - the leaders of these enterprises lived like kings ....
Of course, there wasn’t any theft at the aircraft repair plant (TU-16 was being repaired) where I started my labor activity - not that profile, but on Sunday morning, on a weekend, the engine repair shop caught fire and completely burned out ...
The reasons for us, of course, were not voiced, although there were many versions in the smoking room.
So all kinds of incidents and a mess were also enough - it just didn’t get into the media, and legends were born that nothing fell and didn’t explode ...
If a person’s hands grow out of his ass, then no saboteur is needed here - this person will do things on his own, without any sabotage and pests ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

= Mar. Thira] Although I do not like Stalin, how can I not remember?
But I would be interested to know why you do not like Stalin? Although he is not a girl to love him or not to love him, but still, for what?

[Bayonet]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Although he is not a girl to love him or not to love him, but still, for what?

And what is not clear - a man with a normal sexual orientation!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Bayonet

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Although he is not a girl to love him or not to love him, but still, for what?

And what is not clear - a man with a normal sexual orientation!

Bayonet, that’s not the point. The trouble is that many of the "parishioners" of VO have still not got rid of Solzhenitsyn's nonsense about Stalin. They were brainwashed by millions of “repressed” personally by Stalin. And why were they called "repressed"? After all, in fact, they are convicted, and they were condemned by the court, and not personally by Stalin. And the defendants had a lawyer, and before the trial there was an investigator. And were there any illegally convicted? Were! And today they are not? There is. Mistakes of the judicial system have always been. And if not mistakes? Yes, there were no mistakes. Read the protocols of interrogation of the former Commissar Yezhov. Much will become clear. In general, much can be said on this subject. What for? Anyone who wants to deal with the myth of "repression" will figure it out. And who does not want that - "I do not like Stalin, but how not to remember?"

[Sergej1972]

All convicted are repressed. Repression is legal and illegal.
Anyone imprisoned for theft is also repressed.

[yuriy55]

At the same time, the replacement of materials went unnoticed numerous controllers. An investigation is underway.

Yes ... There are many controllers with high salaries in the country ... There is no one to do engines ...

[Havoc]

Quote: yuriy55

At the same time, the replacement of materials went unnoticed numerous controllers. An investigation is underway.

Yes ... There are many controllers with high salaries in the country ... There is no one to do engines ...

FSByshniki always work at such enterprises; the whole department should be where they looked.

[spirit]

Here, it seems to me that the hard workers with beggarly salaries decided to take an example from the top management led by Rogozin and grab the cake a bit, but not from fat but from hopelessness

[viktor.]

how easy it is for us to collect it in Russia after it is dismantled and again let the fools collect it like a bicycle, but they will punish HARDLY like Serdyukov and Vasilyeva, and they will punish just how under rocket and rockets fly and Vostochny will finish even the excess money to the state.

[Genry]

Quote: viktor.

how easy it is to assemble in Russia after us and then let the fools collect it again,

Well, complaints are eliminated at the expense of the manufacturer. Who faked that and pays.
And your comment, you need to rewrite the whole thing, otherwise the hack is incomprehensible!

[Ivan Ivanov]

It’s clear that the purpose of the bacchanalia was different, now I’m trying to collect fragments in the new realities but with the right goals, in some places the Frankstein comes out.

[Genry]

Quote: IvanIvanov

It’s clear that the purpose of the bacchanalia was different, now I’m trying to collect fragments in the new realities but with the right goals, in some places the Frankstein comes out.

Yes, these cuts, high salaries for shitty work.
By the way, you also need to reduce your salary - otherwise you saw it!

[Suharik.inline]

Someone, somewhere, doesn’t catch mice at all .......
Russia is a generous country !!!
It’s stupid to write about what should be punished for this, since this is a fact of course, but if the military representatives missed this, then it’s completely sad to become.
Imagine how many mats are at the factory in the workshops ..........

[Banishing liberoids]

It is necessary to officially assign Rogozin the rank of baron so that now Ragozin von Twitter sounds! Already got it - soon provitsto will publish orders not on state websites but on social networks

[Genry]

Quote: Exorcist Liberoids

Necessary formally assign Rogozin the rank of baron so that now Ragozin von Twitter sounds!

And you too officially Assign the rank of king! And no liberalism at all.

Quote: Expelling Liberoids

Already got it - soon provitsto will publish orders not on state websites but on social networks

Close all twitter-schmitters, prohibit all comments!

[Banishing liberoids]

Henry of Kiev - when it is published through social networks, decrees, orders, orders are not clever and correct, or there is an official site where all of these are indicated, orders and orders and a place. And according to the tsar, I do not support the manarchy in any form or form, I supporter of the republic.

[Genry]

Quote: Expelling Liberoids

Henry of Kiev

Everything is clear with you now!

Quote: Exorcist Liberoids

official

I have already hinted at the violation of the rules of writing.
I’ll add:

Quote: Expelling Liberoids

right

Quote: Exorcist Liberoids

anarchy

And this passage is generally Americanism:

Quote: Exorcist Liberoids

orders it's not smart

Too liberal, allow yourself to distort the Russian language!
Exile it!

[Senior manager]

Henry. And subtly you "banishing" pin spelling.

[Genry]

If you wrote like that, I would agree. But this “exorcist” is simple as that.

[Bayonet]

Quote: Genry

Close all twitter-schmitters, prohibit all comments!

Who is against - shoot!

[fa2998]

Quote: hirurg

Such things should be punished as treason.

And we, as a usual criminal case (eg theft), will not be opened! The director “of his own will” has already left, well, maybe someone else will be moved until he subsides! We have everything state, popular, common, and that means nobody! In some countries, the state prohibits the constitution by business, and in our country it finances thieves!
If there was a private office, they wouldn’t pay a penny for such a “job,” and they would be fined. We don’t have a ruble returning to the treasury. So the state still contains many supervisors, checking that they would be able to withhold the salary with the bonus the moment when the subordinate plant began to give "marriage", but I don’t remember something like that!
Total corruption on all floors, roofing downstairs. You can put the lower ones on trial without a "dough", and the investigation will get to you, so it’s necessary to hush it up! Now we’ll change the engines in the rockets (for budget money), soon we’ll change on ships and airplanes. And the people (the taxpayer) are all "grabbing" - the main thing is more hype about the fight against corruption (they got Ulyukaev, it must be reminded!)

[AID.S]

"Provide capital with 10% profit, and the capital agrees to any use, at 20% it becomes lively, at 50% it is positively ready to break its head, at 100% it violates all human laws, with 300% there is no crime for which it does not would venture to go, at least under pain of the gallows "
In the realities of Russia, you can add to the "capital" and the official and effective manager and seller of disposable goods ...

[MPK105]

Ragozin Handsome-Again all spat in the face-wipe yourself, slaves ...

[- = ANTRAX = -]

the fault of an enterprise that has violated technology.

[- = ANTRAX = -]

how do they work like that?

[vladimirvn]

But in the face of a harsh era,
which is also right in its own way
do not snatch crumbs,
and create, rolling up your sleeves
(B. Okudzhava, “In our life, beautiful and strange”)

[Mosen6Ish]

It is a pity we are not the 37th (as amended by Solzhenitsyn and other riffraffers).
At least transplant from Rogozin to the OTC controller.

And in the case, it’s high time to introduce the personal responsibility of the “minors” with public flogging.

[Bayonet]

Quote: Mosen6Ish

It is a pity we are not the 37th (as amended by Solzhenitsyn and other riffraffers).
At least transplant from Rogozin to the OTC controller.

And if you ever make a mistake? What to do - do you agree to the camp?

[Tishka]

If you made a marriage more than once, it means I’m not doing my job, I’ll go to the forest and it’s more good! By the way, Rogozin set up a corporation to push Sushki, closing all the other design bureaus, there is no competition, take what they give!

[Bayonet]

Quote: Silence

By the way, Rogozin set up a corporation to push Sushki, closing all the other design bureaus, there is no competition, take what they give!

Rogozin himself is not enthusiastic, but alone such things are not solved, close the design bureau - this is not a stall to demolish.

[Tishka]

So they combined it, with its submission, saying that we will reduce the costs of maintaining different design bureaus, there will be more money, and as a result, only Sukhoi Design Bureau will be financed, the rest, according to the residual principle! That's the result that they wanted, they got it, no competition! So with the space industry, again with one cream, another with some water!

[tolancop]

It’s not a disgrace to call the situation, but quite a crime in view of material damage on an especially large scale. CEO quit "on his own"? So what? It would be a desire to "get it", but quit or not - no difference. In the meantime, cover the "exit" beyond the hillock like a secretive. To plant? It would be nice, but not only him, but the whole chain. But it is possible not to plant, but to oblige to repair the damage caused. TOTALLY. Identify the perpetrators and spread the damage to all in proportion to the resulting salary. IMHO, it would be quite fair. And it's time to start SEARCHING, it's high time.

[Senior manager]

Here, from the pure thieves-embezzlers it is not visible to be exacted, but you want compensation from scammers. It seems we will not wait.

[Antor]

This is a curse and retribution for the morality that the liberal traitors imposed on us in the Yeltsin-Gaidar era of the collapse and plunder of the USSR, today Russia !!! By opening the Pandora’s box and proclaiming “loot” in its myriad “grabbing” for personal enrichment as a measure and measure of success, the significance of the personality in society, we have what we have !!!
Examples of corruption in the millions and billions of dollars of theft due to various schemes, including and related to the violation of technology, are impressive and cause normal people to not just be surprised, but dumb !!!
Why, for the sake of criminal enrichment in Russia, you can go to the persecution of people with tincture of hawthorn and, if only to them, to blow up spaceships, violating technology, etc. Examples of mass, where are we going! ??????
Where is the mass of control, inspecting and supervisory authorities that, time after time, show their inefficiency, sometimes even for the sake of their personal enrichment in conjunction with violators of our laws !!! ???? I agree that such facts of a gross violation of technologies at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant should not be considered as rationalization incarnations !! The Chernobol tragedy is not enough for us because of a violation of technology and its consequences !! ????

[Liberoid-]

Quote: Antor

Where is the mass of control, inspecting and supervisory authorities that, time after time, show their inefficiency, sometimes even for the sake of their personal enrichment in conjunction with violators of our laws !!!

Bayonet and K will explain everything to you now ... I'm tired already ...

[Bayonet]

Quote: Antor

Why for the sake of criminal enrichment in Russia, you can go to the persecution of people with tincture of hawthorn

Yes, what did they fill it with these Alconauts ??? A normal person will not drink any nasty things, all the more so on the label it says - it is not intended for internal use! And if these rams were poisoned by some other chemistry? It's just wild to hear that!

[Blondy]

Yes, it’s not a matter of who drank it, but of the fact that ethyl was methyl under the label — for this, it’s necessary to go to the wall, by the way, and not only with hawthorn

[Bayonet]

Quote: Blondy

here for this and it is necessary to the wall, by the way, and not only with hawthorn

Why are you all so bloodthirsty? Yes, with such a people, there are no need for external enemies, if they had free rein they would smother each other! Interestingly, who calls the loudest to punish, as a rule, he himself is far from sinless. To collect all the like-minded admirers of the 37th year in a single area, and it is better on the island, but to see another year later what kind of happy and fair society you will build there.

[Blondy]

The result is more than 70 corpses. And we blah blah blah on liberal topics.

[Bayonet]

Quote: Blondy

The result is more than 70 corpses. And we blah blah blah

They themselves chose their path. Even when they trumpeted poisoning with might and main, they continued to eat poisonous muck. Well, at least not much, but it has become cleaner on Earth.

[Blondy]

[quote] [They chose their own path. / quote] Well, here again, the liberal mentality in the Russian variation. Imagine that nobody drank at all (although this is no longer Russia), the crime remains a crime when ethyl alcohol was methylated, and they intended to make a profit on the fact that people would "choose their own path" and drink it.

[Bayonet]

Quote: Blondy

And we blah blah blah on liberal topics

Why bring together liberalism and alcoholism? This is only possible under the influence of alcoholic surrogates

[Bayonet]

Quote: Blondy

Yes, it’s not a matter of who drank either,

[Mar.Tirah]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

= Mar. Thira] Although I do not like Stalin, how can I not remember?
But I would be interested to know why you do not like Stalin? Although he is not a girl to love him or not to love him, but still, for what?

We’ll talk about a separate topic. They can kick for the flood.

[Penzyac]

Quote: himRa

As history shows, one must act harshly, investigate and punish the perpetrators
cut amputation so that there is no gangrene

The main thing is that, as history shows, not the fingers were amputated, but the head and those arms and legs controlled by it, which forced and force the fingers to make a marriage ...
And then, some, for sure, as usual, will try to cover themselves with switchmen ...

[himRa]

Quote: PENZYAC

The main thing is that, as history shows, not the fingers but the head are amputated

want to say that history doesn’t teach anything? but we can’t learn from what wasn’t, and the Soviet method worked, I hope this is a well-functioning mechanism, we just need to set up responsibility at each stage and let the grassroots links (as it was before, the worker could complain about the director at the party committee ) to act and now I'm not sure that they will punish the one who made these decisions!
here I agree with you ...

[BOPOH50]

This was to be expected, having dispersed the training departments at the enterprise enterprises, they lost the opportunity to train specialists for their enterprise, the machine model + person = part does not work. In addition, even the management plan presses on specialists at all costs (pushed the product out of the gate, and there’s at least a flood) .As an example: he worked at one enterprise, refused to put burnt copper pipes (fell into disgrace), demanded that they remove the defective material from the warehouse (got out of the gate). So it’s easy to destroy the old, and creating a new one is long and expensive yes and not everything is decided by money. There are a lot of people from the side of defense enterprises who absolutely don’t know what technology is and what it is for.

[BOPOH50]

Until we return the old training system, we will either limp or fall.

[Fiber forehead]

With such a shortage of qualified personnel, it is not difficult to introduce the mishandled Cossack pest, or "greedy fool". First a plane, now a rocket. The list goes on. Human factor? The crime? Continuing the liberal economic course, no matter what, this is a crime and a human factor at the same time.

[cat hippopotamus]

It seems that the discipline on the Proton is weak, and this is confirmed by the early accidents when launching the Glonas satellites.

[BOPOH50]

Quote: cat hippo

It seems that the discipline on the Proton is weak, and this is confirmed by the early accidents when launching the Glonas satellites.

It is not a matter of discipline, but the greed of managers for bonuses, and the desire to click their heels, and not report on the actual state of things.

[gjkrjdybr50]

Very primitive reasoning about the fault of the director, supervisors and performers. In this situation, 2 options are possible with some variations:
1. Went in a legal way. In order to improve (economy, lack of materials, etc.) a decision was made to replace the solder. A notice of change (preliminary) and a type test program were issued. Conducted tests, positive results, re-issued the notice, everything, including and the VP signed and then introduced into production. If something is about ... whether, the culprits are the designer and the technologist, their chief bureau, quality control department, airspace and the test department.
2. Since now the supply of components and materials has become a big problem, in the absence of the necessary solder and the presence of pressure from above on the timely completion of the products (and for the working class, the absence or reduction of the% premium due to the failure to fulfill the delivery plan), of the performers (very smart or terribly illiterate) decided to quietly conduct welding (soldering) using the existing solder, which is used to cook a similar engine in the next section. Culprits: the one who applied, the master of the site (allowed the material to get into the workplace), the controller of the Quality Department, the representative of the VP.
And where in this chain is the director, Rogozin, etc., whose blood you want? This country has become such, any plant director can at any time stop the production of components for economic reasons, stop the production of components with a 5th acceptance. Try to buy EVP, for example GMI-10, TENY, etc. with acceptance 5 and you will understand why the solder is not the same. I do not justify anyone, but in the chain of "surrendered to the NKVD", the directors of production with final products are certainly not the first. It is necessary to make sure that more than one "effective manager" can not open his mouth and say that he will not produce products for public defense, because it is not profitable for him. Then there will be the necessary solder and components, and nothing will need to be changed. Described, this is a general approach. As I wrote, options are possible.

[BOPOH50]

Quote: gjkrjdybr50

Very primitive reasoning about the fault of the director, supervisors and performers. In this situation, 2 options are possible with some variations:
1. Went in a legal way. In order to improve (economy, lack of materials, etc.) a decision was made to replace the solder. A notice of change (preliminary) and a type test program were issued. Conducted tests, positive results, re-issued the notice, everything, including and the VP signed and then introduced into production. If something is about ... whether, the culprits are the designer and the technologist, their chief bureau, quality control department, airspace and the test department.
2. Since now the supply of components and materials has become a big problem, in the absence of the necessary solder and the presence of pressure from above on the timely completion of the products (and for the working class, the absence or reduction of the% premium due to the failure to fulfill the delivery plan), of the performers (very smart or terribly illiterate) decided to quietly conduct welding (soldering) using the existing solder, which is used to cook a similar engine in the next section. Culprits: the one who applied, the master of the site (allowed the material to get into the workplace), the controller of the Quality Department, the representative of the VP.
And where in this chain is the director, Rogozin, etc., whose blood you want? This country has become such, any plant director can at any time stop the production of components for economic reasons, stop the production of components with a 5th acceptance. Try to buy EVP, for example GMI-10, TENY, etc. with acceptance 5 and you will understand why the solder is not the same. I do not justify anyone, but in the chain of "surrendered to the NKVD", the directors of production with final products are certainly not the first. It is necessary to make sure that more than one "effective manager" can not open his mouth and say that he will not produce products for public defense, because it is not profitable for him. Then there will be the necessary solder and components, and nothing will need to be changed. Described, this is a general approach. As I wrote, options are possible.

These are just excuses, for solving technical issues, coordination with the general designer is necessary - this is the law, it is violated, it is a crime in the face. There is no general approach. The law is mandatory for everyone.

[gjkrjdybr50]

CROWN This is just an excuse, for solving technical issues you need to coordinate with the general designer, this is the law, it is violated, it is a crime in the face. There is no general approach. The law is mandatory for everyone.

But no. If the changes do not affect the performance characteristics, then they need not be agreed with the developer, if the manufacturer is the holder of the original CD. And according to the latest instructions of the DOGA, even the annual decision on notifications does not need to be agreed with the DOGA.
I do not justify anyone, only you need to dig below.

[BOPOH50]

By the way, at the expense of options: In Sholokhov’s work Virgin Soil, Ostrovnov poured sand instead of straw in the crib, in the morning several bulls didn’t rise, which he said in justification: After all, he wanted it better, it would be cleaner.

[gjkrjdybr50]

Options, these are special cases of 2 described ways of improper use of solder. And the use of sand, this is just option 2.

[BOPOH50]

Quote: gjkrjdybr50

CROWN This is just an excuse, for solving technical issues you need to coordinate with the general designer, this is the law, it is violated, it is a crime in the face. There is no general approach. The law is mandatory for everyone.

But no. If the changes do not affect the performance characteristics, then they need not be agreed with the developer, if the manufacturer is the holder of the original CD. And according to the latest instructions of the DOGA, even the annual decision on notifications does not need to be agreed with the DOGA.
I do not justify anyone, only you need to dig below.

This is where the changes in the performance characteristics are evident, different materials have different physical and chemical indicators, or maybe you still did not pass physics at school. Moreover, tests on how the replaced materials behave were not carried out, and to say that this does not affect the performance characteristics just stupid. In the Soviet Union, hundreds of research institutes worked in research in the field of materials, compiled on their basis reference books that were later used to design various objects. And as I wrote, a violation of technology (which is already was tested, approved and adopted in the production) is a crime (man lit in the wrong place, shraf, and if this place a gas station?)

[gjkrjdybr50]

In physics at school, and then in 2 educational institutions, incl. and at the academy, I had excellent grades, however, as in other subjects. Read carefully option 2. Type tests are conducted when replacing materials, components, changing technologies, etc. It looks like a young man (I looked at your profile). You have a very abstract concept about the subject of the conversation. I recommend not discussing the topic of designing, designing a CD and making changes to it. I do this on a professional basis in one of the divisions of the East Kazakhstan Concern

[Karaul73]

It was not without direct management of the enterprise. The command to replace parts could not give people from the middle management. It is necessary to punish strictly for this.

[Gormenghast]

The argument in favor of those who see the cause of the degradation of the Russian space industry is not "the collapse of the education system"(although this is undeniably the case), but in the explicit and blatant theft and other modernization of Yeltsin-raised managers with a thievish bias.

The big minus of democracy and its terrible consequences; plus Stalin's methods of organizing production.

[Senior manager]

I dream I wish the presidential press secretary began to read the digest of comments of the Military Review.

[BOPOH50]

Quote: gjkrjdybr50

In physics at school, and then in 2 educational institutions, incl. and at the academy, I had excellent grades, however, as in other subjects. Read carefully option 2. Type tests are conducted when replacing materials, components, changing technologies, etc. It looks like a young man (I looked at your profile). You have a very abstract concept about the subject of the conversation. I recommend not discussing the topic of designing, designing a CD and making changes to it. I do this on a professional basis in one of the divisions of the East Kazakhstan Concern

I graduated from the technician-technologist as a MVATT, and everything that you designers invent, technology technologists are introducing into production, so you are not a narrow specialist in the manufacture of products, and as I already wrote that any deviation from technology affects the performance characteristics, even a change processing modes affects the structure of the processed material, and accordingly its characteristics, so it seems to me that such specialists as you need to retrain and retrain, otherwise we will continue to have aircraft and missile attacks.

[gjkrjdybr50]

Technological engineers are involved in the development of technologies and their introduction into production. Technician-technologist, this is a specialist with secondary vocational education and the corresponding amount of knowledge. What is TTX, you do not seem to quite understand, I will not explain to you, look on the net. Deviation from technology, as a rule, does not affect the performance characteristics, but affects the quality, reliability, appearance and some other characteristics of the product. Or do you think that the use of another solder will lead to a decrease in engine thrust (one of the main performance characteristics of the engine)? To retrain and retrain me late, "Competent to teach, only to spoil", and if necessary, not for you. I propose to stop persisting in my errors and unfounded statements and to stop correspondence. I have other activities more interesting than eliminating your illiteracy. Aircraft and rocket fall, as you say, will stop when specialists, and not people with superficial knowledge in the field of knowledge under discussion, deal with the matter.

[BOPOH50]

If you are such a highly-qualified specialist, it is strange that you justify a violation of technology that, alas, leads to such results.

[gjkrjdybr50]

I have bosses who can give (and give) an assessment of my qualifications and level of training.
As you will not understand, I’m not justifying anyone, I wrote who is primarily responsible for the violation of technology, I showed 2 options for the development of events (legal and non-legal), but there are circumstances that accompany and trigger the chain of violations. It is necessary to sort it out in the complex, otherwise it will be like with the bulls in “Silent Don” and the “bulls” will die even further if you immediately take and shoot all the “Ostrovnovs” without eliminating the circumstances that led to this. And, as a matter of fact, no one wants to understand in essence, they all took off and put the same ones until the next case. Until the circumstances that lead to the replacement of materials and components are eliminated, until the editing of the CD for what is available and under the circumstances ceases, until the rockets fall, the cables break on the finishers and other sad events.

[shpon123]

Well, what is Dimon? What's the deal with the American trampolines?

[Former battalion commander]

In less than ten years, the Protons began to fall, the authorities finally stirred ... Each accident should lead, if not to a prison term, then at least to dismiss as the one who allowed marriage in the chain of ALL superiors two three levels up, and the rest (bosses of even higher levels) to flog financially and mercilessly. And how such simple organizational measures have not yet been taken? The explanation is simple - now, at the helm of the Russian economy, there are completely incompetent managers who cannot organize an ELEMENTARY order in production. One word "effective managers" ... damn ...

[Ham]

case of course out of the ordinary ...

[BOPOH50]

Quote: gjkrjdybr50

As you will not understand, I’m not justifying anyone, I wrote who is primarily responsible for the violation of technology, I showed 2 options for the development of events (legal and non-legal), but there are circumstances that accompany and trigger the chain of violations. It is necessary to sort it out in the complex, otherwise it will be like with the bulls in “Silent Don” and the “bulls” will die even further if you immediately take and shoot all the “Ostrovnovs” without eliminating the circumstances that led to this. And, as a matter of fact, no one wants to understand in essence, they all took off and put the same ones until the next case. Until the circumstances that lead to the replacement of materials and components are eliminated, until the editing of the CD for what is available and under the circumstances ceases, until the rockets fall, the cables break on the finishers and other sad events.

Here, of course, everything is correct, and they will certainly understand.

[Owl]

This is not sabotage or sabotage - it is "saving" or "optimizing production."

[Old26]

Quote: iliitch

And under the Soviet Union, everything flew and worked.

Fell under the Soviet Union

The question is, kmk always rested on control. And at all levels. Starting from the documentation during the design and ending with the finished product. There was OTC, and there were military representatives. Military representatives often went to the designer. And the work with them was very hard. One hundred pots will squeeze you out. But then you knew that your node would work just fine. No matter where it was applied.
Now they sometimes say that this is a diversion, that these are the machinations of the imperialists.
Remember the launch when the Proton looped and crashed?
The board with the sensors was installed by the "young" EMNIP, without experience and knowledge. But the master should have known how this board is installed, how the cable from this board should be located, etc. But everyone didn’t care. It will do so. The military acceptance was reduced (now they say they began to rebuild). But to restore the damaged is much more difficult. Many of the EPs have gone to other areas of activity, and new ones should be expensive.

To punish, that is, to shoot, as they suggest here, is not an option. But to punish, punish first with the ruble, and then with criminal liability - this is necessary. And not only punish, but also encourage. We sometimes forget the "carrot and stick" method and try to use only the "carrot" method.
Here is the simplest, most basic example. For work. Some "young talent" rummaged in the computer at work, the result - I have had to do resuscitation for a week now. and they know who it is. So punish him with a ruble so that the second time it is not good. No, they chided everything. And in a week or a month it will want to experiment again ...

[Pashunchik]

The situation with solder reminds a rake on which we step. Back in 1987, it was already on the product for Buran, the OTK was not in the know, the master slammed the replacement, the young locksmith simply did not understand the difference in the change in the temperature of the PSR solder on POS-61, it was revealed only during thermal tests, when the solder floated, the filter with a longitudinal opened with a seam on this solder, 7-50С-3, together with dirt, flooded into the hydraulic booster, the drive got up. Formally, the fault of OTK, really a master, the difference between solders in 5 minutes (4 minutes to enter the mode) is revealed by a soldering station with a thermal sensor.

[16112014nk]

Rogozin specializing in blah blah ball, sorry - journalist. What can he understand in rockets and engines? Only if in trampolines.

[BOPOH50]

Quote: Old26

Quote: iliitch

And under the Soviet Union, everything flew and worked.

Fell under the Soviet Union

The question is, kmk always rested on control. And at all levels. Starting from the documentation during the design and ending with the finished product. There was OTC, and there were military representatives. Military representatives often went to the designer. And the work with them was very hard. One hundred pots will squeeze you out. But then you knew that your node would work just fine. No matter where it was applied.
Now they sometimes say that this is a diversion, that these are the machinations of the imperialists.
Remember the launch when the Proton looped and crashed?
The board with the sensors was installed by the "young" EMNIP, without experience and knowledge. But the master should have known how this board is installed, how the cable from this board should be located, etc. But everyone didn’t care. It will do so. The military acceptance was reduced (now they say they began to rebuild). But to restore the damaged is much more difficult. Many of the EPs have gone to other areas of activity, and new ones should be expensive.

To punish, that is, to shoot, as they suggest here, is not an option. But to punish, punish first with the ruble, and then with criminal liability - this is necessary. And not only punish, but also encourage. We sometimes forget the "carrot and stick" method and try to use only the "carrot" method.
Here is the simplest, most basic example. For work. Some "young talent" rummaged in the computer at work, the result - I have had to do resuscitation for a week now. and they know who it is. So punish him with a ruble so that the second time it is not good. No, they chided everything. And in a week or a month it will want to experiment again ...

Yes, the space industry is not a place where you can experiment, here much has been paid for with lives.

[Old26]

Quote: Former battalion commander

In less than ten years, the Protons began to fall, the authorities finally stirred ... Each accident should lead, if not to a prison term, then at least to dismiss as the one who allowed marriage in the chain of ALL superiors two three levels up, and the rest (bosses of even higher levels) to flog financially and mercilessly. And how such simple organizational measures have not yet been taken? The explanation is simple - now, at the helm of the Russian economy, there are completely incompetent managers who cannot organize an ELEMENTARY order in production. One word "effective managers" ... damn ..

For information
Proton flies 50 years. 25 years in the USSR, 25 years in Russia. There were 412 launches in total. And 31 accident. Of these, only 8 in Russia. the remaining 23 are in the USSR. Based on your logic, everyone should already be sitting. Or be fired. "You will make protons, and other rockets too?

Maybe stop throwing replicas: put, shoot, punishable as a treason ...
Put yourself in the shoes of the person whose fault or lack of supervision the accident occurred. How would you react if your mistake, which could be due to a lack of experience, would lead to the fact that you would be immediately put to the wall ???

There is a problem, it needs to be solved not only by "landing" (this is an extreme case and is more suitable "for theft"), but by improving the quality of work. control. The problem is complex, but solvable, and there will be no such mistakes if the end result is not only time, but also quality
Options that could be very well described comrade Colonel50. What and how it could be. Causes and consequences

And how, how you can, how you write, PORTABLE FINANCIAL AND MERCY for example, the master of the site, who didn’t notice what the young man squinted? Or shop manager? How can you SORROW FINANCIAL? Indeed, apart from depriving the premium and surcharges, you cannot do anything by law. Even in court, they are not entitled to pick up more than 50% of earnings (pensions). And we love to show their coolness when it comes to punishment, the main thing is that this does not concern writers

[Aqela]

Yeah, well, yes, given that in the USSR, a booster was developed, and in the Russian Federation it was only necessary to properly observe the already developed technology, then your arguments look breathtakingly Those. either the author of the argument has a dull mind, or he hopes for such in the ranks of the attentive public ...

[Phoenix_L'vov]

In the words of Stalin - "Every mistake has a name and surname."

How many controllers are there? Who “guessed” to supply spare parts made of non-heat-resistant metals?

[Normal ok]

In general, shuffle the deck and hope for a good arrival (((

[Aqela]

Effective performance on the march!

[Rabinowicz]

replacement of materials went unnoticed by numerous inspectors

It’s strange. As I understand it, they replaced tin there.

[Skifotavr]

All those responsible for the substitution of technology and documentation will be severely punished.

I would like more details ...

[1536]

Judging by what they so confidently say about this malfunction, its source has already been found, neutralized or rendered harmless. It is a pity that the enemy managed to destroy, in my opinion, at least one spaceship, but the damage from discrediting the space industry has yet to be calculated. "Trampolines, you say? Heh!"

[gridasov]

And in my opinion everyone lies! Not such a complicated rocket engine. And solder does not greatly change its quality factor. It is clear that there was a "psychosis" in fear that the missiles would not fly. And here there are more prerequisites, that if the total weight is non-standard high, then the probability is. that turbo-fuel superchargers will "fly" very high. If the weight is lowered, the rocket will take off. AND! AND! Now we are betting gentlemen!

[Bondik05]

Rogozin also announced the salaries of engine assemblers - 10-15 thousand rubles. Any questions? Someone does not understand why rockets fall? Those who can’t stumble anywhere else go to the plant, but they must select the best in this field of activity. In the USSR, there was always a defense industry with higher salaries than the rest of the industry. People thought about their duties, and not about what to feed the family, and what you can steal. FRAMES decide everything! Ilyich was right!