Military Review

How Gorbachev was fooled: the story of Burbulis and Aven

41
How Gorbachev was fooled: the story of Burbulis and Aven



Alfred Koch (AK) talks with Gennady Burbulis (GB) and Peter Aven (PA)

A.K .: Gene! Tell us about Belovezhskaya Pushcha and its world wide historical value!

PA: Yes, Gena! Remember, on the eve of your trip to the Bialowieza Forest, literally one day, there were talks with Antall, the Hungarian Prime Minister. We sat side by side, and you drew diagrams, how you can organize a new community. According to one scheme, it turned out to be practically a single state - a union of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, maybe Kazakhstan, - on the other - a softer structure, including all the others (except, of course, the Baltic States). But then we saw a couple of days later that there was no construction at all. How did it all happen? How unexpected was it all? The main legend has remained in public consciousness - that Kravchuk took the toughest position: no agreements, and ended with what ended. Is this true or not?

GB: This is not a legend. This is a “historical person” truth. In principle, the need for a serious, substantive meeting that would answer the main question: in what legal form is further sovereignty of the republics of the Soviet Union possible — it was ripening gradually. One of the key points is the swamp of the Novogarevsk process. The swamp. Sometimes it even seemed to me that the Gorbachev pact in Novo Ogarevo looked like a coup plot by the August 1991 of the year. After all, I coordinated this process on the part of Russia, and we took very seriously the fact that there could be brought into the world. The seriousness of this was that, starting in November 1990, we began to build the prerequisites for bilateral regulation of our relations with the republics.

AK: That is, a year before the arrival of Gaidar?

GB: Yes, and by the end of 1991, we already had bilateral agreements with Ukraine, with Kazakhstan, with Belarus ...

AK: So these were insurance documents that, if the Union collapsed, made up some kind of cooperation fabric?

GB: Not even that. They were more, I would say so, tech. We said, including to Gorbachev: “Mikhail Sergeyevich, this is the preparation of the treaty on the renewed Union, which we are now doing. Treat this as a useful and very important process: the republics begin to talk among themselves. Bilateral commitments, bilateral interests and bilateral liability. And we must rely on this! ”

PA: Did you talk to him like that? He probably understood that bilateral relations between the republics essentially exclude the role of the federal center. It is obvious.

GB: What teeth started talking? Everything was more or less clear. We in Novo Ogarevo defended the concept of "nine - and all." And he sought "nine plus one", that is, in his scheme, the union center remained as an important factor in the new treaty.

PA: So from the very beginning you had the idea of ​​liquidating the union center?

GB: Yes! Yes!

AK: So, the thesis that you went to Belovezhskaya Pushcha without a plan for the collapse of the Soviet Union and that the idea of ​​denouncing the union treaty arose during the negotiations and the source of this idea was not the Russian delegation, is a myth? From what you say, it follows that the task of the collapse of the Union was set by you at least another year before its actual liquidation?

PA: And another piquant touch about which Gorbachev’s assistant Chernyaev writes: Yeltsin, until the winter of 1991, always voiced agreement with the presence of the center. He said that the center will be and the question is only in powers - what this center will do. And the idea of ​​the complete elimination of Gorbachev and the center as a class was not voiced anywhere. Such a tricky move: to support verbally, but in fact to disintegrate.

AK: I just yesterday Gorbachev talked about this. He thinks he was just bored.

GB: Wait a minute. I want us to distinguish between two different tasks. The first is the formation of the concept of a renewed union treaty. What was the Novogarevo process.

PA: But there was no agreement ...

AK: Peter, how do you not understand? It's simple: here is the Novogarev process. And he has nothing to do with Belovezhsky.

GB: It is not true! Direct relationship!

AK: Why then was there no Gorbachev in Belovezhskaya Pushcha?

GB: I asked you not to be so aggressive ...

PA: Because they understood the Union as a kind of union without a center. Then in Russia spoke "confederation".

А.К .: But this is not a new war process! In the Novogarevsk concept there was a center!

GB: Once again I explain. We must not lose sight of the main motive of the packeterans. They were not satisfied with the text of the Novogarevsky Treaty prepared for signing. That is, the Novogarev process was doomed, it was not supported by the center itself. With the exception of only one Gorbachev.

AK: Gorbachev told me in detail about this. He believes that the collapse of the Soviet Union, of course, was due to the Emergency Committee. Because if it were not for the coup, then the August Treaty of Novogarevsk would have been signed. And then he would screw up the screws, and everything would be fine. But what you say changes my picture of the world very seriously. Because in my view, the policy of dismantling the Soviet Union was taken after the State Emergency Committee by all the presidents of the republics, including Yeltsin. It turns out that you started it back in November 20, when the Soviet Union was still fully operational and even in January, 1990 managed to conduct a monetary reform, which is impossible without a powerful resource.

P.A .: Gene! Only without fools. Why did you decide that you do not need Gorbachev? So, honestly. Did you and Shakhrai probably decide this earlier than Boris Nikolaevich? After all, you were younger; it was easier for you to break this connection. Now we can honestly answer, this is history, it all happened 20 years ago. Understand, we do not give ratings. Maybe this is a good solution.

GB: When we became convinced during the year of the inadequacy of the Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR and its inconsistency with the tasks that confront it, and when they began to prepare for the election of the Congress of People's Deputies of the RSFSR in 1990, we would call it , forced new strategy. Forced in the sense that, at the Allied Congress, there is no support for the ideas of the interregional deputy group, and Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev continues dangerous maneuvering between desires and practical actions, since the aggressively obedient majority of the Congress retains the illusion of its power, and the country is already slipping into a total crisis, was adopted strategy: focus on the Russian Federation. In May 1990, Yeltsin was elected head of the RSFSR, chairman of the Supreme Soviet. This is the culmination of a new strategy, which we then discussed and which was already implemented in Russia in a complex positional struggle.

I emphasize: in November 1990, we stated: the Union has no serious opportunities to respond in a timely and adequate manner to the most difficult problems of each republic and country as a whole. It was necessary to grope and shape the new legal and managerial reality with bilateral treaties. In this case, no one was in a hurry to declare the Union sentenced. We understood that a new Union treaty would be needed. What would be its form - a federation, a confederation, an association - no one then specifically intended anything.

Here is an important touch: at the Allied Congress, our group organized a presentation of the draft constitution of Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov. I mean that you are in no hurry to evaluate us as strategists who initially started with the idea of ​​destroying the USSR.

PA: Yes, no one condemns you. All clear. How would you sign the Union Treaty as amended by Gorbachev? After all, there remained the federal government and the presidency of the Union.

GB: In that contract, this post was purely decorative. And Mikhail Sergeyevich understood this perfectly well.

А.К .: Gena! Do you understand what's the matter? I do not condemn anyone in any way. I just want to understand the chronology of events. It is one thing when Yeltsin, Burbulis, Shakhrai and others like them come to the Belovezhskaya Pushcha, or even earlier, negotiating within the framework of the Novogarev process, they believe in the alliance's unalienable existence. No matter what: decorative, decisive, but it must be, there must be one country, one subject of international law, one armed forces, one currency ...

Or when they arrive, bearing in mind that some center is still needed as an intermediate stage, but they already have an alternative behavior scenario in their pockets, which they have been developing since the fall of 1990. This is a completely different mood, especially considering the psychomotor Boris Nikolaevich, who strongly disliked the fact that Gorbachev was and will be his boss. And any scenario in which Gorbachev is not the boss initially seemed to him more subconsciously more likeable.
Originator:
http://www.km.ru/science-tech/2017/01/18/istoriya-sssr/793643-kak-gorbacheva-obveli-vokrug-paltsa-rasskaz-burbulisa-i
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  1. Finches
    Finches 24 January 2017 06: 11
    +18
    Burbulis should not hang far from Gorbachev ... On the whole, this whole gop company needs to be hung up on feng shui along the Kremlin wall, just as Peter once hung up the rebellious archers ...!
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 24 January 2017 06: 14
      +5
      the site smelled of gray ....
      1. CONTROL
        CONTROL 24 January 2017 07: 33
        +3
        Quote: Andrew Y.
        the site smelled of gray ....

        ... rather - with hydrogen sulfide!
    2. Titsen
      Titsen 24 January 2017 06: 43
      +9
      Quote: Finches
      all this gop company needs to be hung up on feng shui along the Kremlin wall,


      It is possible and necessary to add to them their current acting and retired liberal followers!
    3. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 24 January 2017 06: 55
      +9
      If the medal or order "For the Collapse of the USSR" is approved, how many applicants will come?
      1. Uncle Murzik
        Uncle Murzik 24 January 2017 07: 49
        +4
        Uncle Lee and if you give a bonus too! wassat
        1. vovanpain
          vovanpain 24 January 2017 09: 41
          +9
          Quote: Uncle Lee
          If you approve a medal or order "For the collapse of the USSR", then how many applicants will run

          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Lee and if you give a bonus too!

          Colleagues, the idea is very sound, as the Jews will come running for the prize and the order immediately:
          Quote: Finches
          it’s necessary to hang along Feng Shui along the Kremlin wall, as Peter had once hanged rioting archers ...!

          Regards, Colleagues! hi
        2. To be or not to be
          To be or not to be 24 January 2017 10: 21
          +4
          "How Gorbachev Was Fooled: The Story of Burbulis and Aven"
          They threshed under the fools - a mole was circled and one Gorbachev was to everyone. As if there was no Andropov over Gorbachev. and other Members
          They knew what they were doing, what they were doing, what it would lead to. - to the change of one social economic formation of socialism for capitalism and the redistribution of public property of the means of production between a handful of the chosen ones - - who had emerged. : "We have appointed you oligarchs!"
          The question? Can a country develop further without giving a legal assessment of those events and determining the guilt (or merit) of each of those events ??? Society should know what losses it suffered as a result of the actions of these scumbags
          And why is this still not done?
        3. bastard
          bastard 24 January 2017 20: 29
          +2
          Uncle lee
          If the medal or order "For the Collapse of the USSR" is approved, how many applicants will come?
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          and if you give a bonus too!

          Great bait fishing!
      2. PHANTOM-AS
        PHANTOM-AS 24 January 2017 08: 32
        +4
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        If the medal or order "For the Collapse of the USSR" is approved, how many applicants will come?

        Such a medal exists and the humpback is one of the awarded.
        1. Uncle lee
          Uncle lee 24 January 2017 11: 35
          +6
          Quote: PHANTOM-AS
          Such a medal exists
          A hemp tie is supposed to be a medal!
          1. PHANTOM-AS
            PHANTOM-AS 24 January 2017 12: 43
            +2
            Quote: Uncle Lee
            A hemp tie is supposed to be a medal!

            you can also "Spanish"
            1. Uncle lee
              Uncle lee 24 January 2017 13: 34
              +5
              Quote: PHANTOM-AS
              can

              It depends on the status: To the medal, hemp, to the order, Spanish!
            2. bastard
              bastard 24 January 2017 20: 49
              +2
              Quote: PHANTOM-AS
              A hemp tie is supposed to be a medal!
              you can also "Spanish"

              Quote: Uncle Lee
              It depends on the status: To the medal, hemp, to the order, Spanish!

              Interesting practice, comrades:
              "In the fourth year of reign, Vlad Tepesh (Dracula, yep!) At once stopped paying all forms of tribute. It was an open call. Sultan Murad, showing frivolity, limited himself to sending a punitive detachment of a thousand horsemen to Wallachia - to teach a lesson to the rebellious vassal and bring his head to Istanbul, for edification.
              But everything turned out differently. The Turks tried to lure Vlad into a trap, but they themselves were surrounded and surrendered. The prisoners were taken to Tirgovishte, where the captured Turks were executed. They were put on stakes - every single one, within one day. Punctual in everything, Tepesh and in execution respected the principle of hierarchy: for the Turkish aga, who commanded the detachment, a stake with a gold tip was prepared.
              "
              1. PHANTOM-AS
                PHANTOM-AS 24 January 2017 21: 23
                +3
                Quote: villain
                x were put on stakes - every single one, within one day. Punctual in everything, Tepes also observed the principle of hierarchy in execution: a stake with a gold tip was prepared for the Turkish agi, who commanded the detachment. "

                Apparently, he was a good man, kind and humane. laughing
                Thanks for the comment! step over good .
          2. pussamussa
            pussamussa 24 January 2017 14: 52
            +2
            And a piece of soap.
          3. bastard
            bastard 24 January 2017 20: 37
            +2
            Quote: Uncle Lee
            A hemp tie is supposed to be a medal!

            Fragrant soap and fluffy rope.
          4. moskowit
            moskowit 24 January 2017 20: 52
            +1
            Absolutely right. "For the victory in the Cold War." The truth is not state ...
      3. g1v2
        g1v2 24 January 2017 15: 37
        +1
        A few hundred. And among them will be the majority of the top leadership of the country and the party. The USSR collapsed for a long time and finished off the GKChP, after which it was officially officially dismissed immediately. In general, from the interview it becomes clear that the GKChP was carried out in order to prevent the Novoogorevsky document and strike a decisive blow to the Union. In addition, since the 90th year, a dissolution plan already existed. In general, this is the case when I agree with the fans to shout about the executions. There is someone to brush his forehead with green. And shahrai, Burbulus, Kravchuk and Shushkevich should go first numbers. And then Gorbachev and all GKChPisty, without exception.am
    4. larand
      larand 24 January 2017 11: 03
      +2
      Quote: Finches
      Burbulis should not hang far from Gorbachev ... On the whole, this whole gop company needs to be hung up on feng shui along the Kremlin wall, just as Peter once hung up the rebellious archers ...!

      Sagittarius rebelled openly against Petka and went to their death, and these ublydki rattled. And what the hell did VO get these creatures to the site? What, orientation changed?
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 24 January 2017 07: 12
    +3
    the Union has serious opportunities to respond in a timely and adequate manner to the most difficult problems each republic and the country as a whole is no longer there. It was necessary to grope and form a new legal and managerial reality bilateral treaties


    There wouldn’t be these fictitious and absolutely artificially grown in my time so-called "republics"- "so-called sisters", there would be no collapse of the country.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 24 January 2017 08: 46
      0
      collapse would be.
      everything comes from people's opinions, through local authorities to the republican authorities or directly to the Union.
      Many wanted "video recorders" at all costs.
      at the beginning of 2000, one friend said: "the first vm appeared and a neighbor in the garage gave a garage for an imported vm." As I remember there are garages in the swamp. in the lowlands, but the fact itself is a sharp "phase shift".
      Exchange real life for a moving picture.
      There is no withdrawal - we have not seen it yet (that "neighbor" probably lives). It's too early to put a point. The union is not yet possible to restore.
    2. Glory1974
      Glory1974 24 January 2017 12: 15
      +1
      there would be no collapse of the country.

      All that is piled up may fall apart. Another thing is that they collapsed contrary to the opinion of the people.
    3. iouris
      iouris 25 January 2017 11: 09
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      There would not have been these invented and absolutely artificially grown so-called "republics"

      Learn materiel. The USSR is the legal successor of the Russian Empire, Russia. There would be no republics, there would be no Union. There would be no USSR, there would be no Russian Federation, part of Russia. It was not the republics that destroyed the Union, but the Moscow nomenclature. In general, it was not the USSR that was destroyed, but the world socialist system with the aim of privatizing the national resources, and the USSR and the world socialist system disappeared as a consequence, as a result of the counter-revolution. The causes of the disaster are not national (interethnic), but material - private property. It is precisely the desire to conceal the crime - the theft of public property - that the promotion of the myth that "the Balts have destroyed the Union" is due. Nobody in the USSR wanted to be in the chaos that reigned in the USSR after 1985. Nationalism and chauvinism are signs of the initial stage of capitalism, initial capitalist accumulation.
  3. 1536
    1536 24 January 2017 07: 17
    +12
    When there is no class (or elite, if you want) that needs a state, a country, a people that nourish it with forces, etc., then the Bialowieza Agreement is obtained. The role of the individual in history, of course, has its place to be, but socio-economic relations can not be found anywhere. In the USSR, the working class in the Leninist understanding, as the hegemon of society, went down in history. A new class was not born. Nothing out of it. Eternally dissatisfied appeared, greyhounds, crooks, and party nomenclature appeared, using the chaos simply usurped power, crushing the state and people under themselves. They have been waiting for this 76 years from the very 25 of October to the 1917 of the year. The state and now they do not need. The main thing is that the janitor Ali paid tribute, and the programmer Ivan Ivanovich went to work every day and paid taxes, and even paid for housing and communal services. And even if the programmer becomes a pogromist - nothing too. Even good, because the main thing, of course, is oil and gas. They act like a drug. Is it a joke that you are not doing anything, and the money is floating in your pocket. Both Ivan and Ali can be given a handout so that they are silent, or vice versa, they rebel. Everything's under control!
    Conclusion: we need a class of people who need a country, who are going to live here, work, raise children, and not knock money and shed for the West. Thank God, they imposed sanctions against these crooks. Because in the West, too, destructive, negligent forces are not needed, the excess of the critical mass of which will give rise to the same chaos. But, they say, they will be canceled soon. Then wait for trouble.
    1. PHANTOM-AS
      PHANTOM-AS 24 January 2017 08: 47
      +4
      The working class woke up in '93, but it was already too late, although if the Elcists hadn’t been flooded with Moscow, then perhaps we would have won.
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 24 January 2017 08: 58
        0
        Quote: PHANTOM-AS
        The working class woke up in 93 ...

        - yah?
        - and how was this "awakening" expressed?
        - war in Moscow - not to remember, there Boris Yeltsin fought with Khazbulatov and Rutsky, who joined him, mainly ...
    2. Alekspel
      Alekspel 24 January 2017 09: 46
      +6
      Totally agree with you. Most of today's grabbers of "oil refiners" have come to believe in the power of money so much that they do not even think that a riot on the ship is possible. However, the real leaders of the process understand everything perfectly and try to manage both order, and, if necessary, chaos. In rich America, even then elements of chaos arise, and we are not far from Ukraine and we have to organize chaos just one spit, of course, those who have financial leverage in their hands. So today's life is similar to the calm before the storm, how long it will last is unknown, it seems that not very long.
    3. iouris
      iouris 25 January 2017 22: 15
      0
      Classes exist objectively.
      PUBLIC CLASSES - large groups of people who differ among themselves primarily in their economic situation, their attitude to the material means of production (some are owners of the means of production, others not), therefore, their attitude to the distribution of the social product and the resource of power. The aggravation of class contradictions within the framework of one formation leads to various forms of class struggle, which is the driving force behind the development of society. The result of the development of the class struggle is the social revolution (the locomotive of history), giving life to a new and progressive socio-economic formation. Thus, the whole history of the development of mankind is the history of the struggle between the exploited and the exploiting classes.
  4. CONTROL
    CONTROL 24 January 2017 07: 43
    +6
    taking into account the psychomotorism of Boris Nikolaevich (Yeltsin),

    And what is the "psychomotor" of the drunk?
    Threw in a glass - and conduct, even with an orchestra! but if you want - "wash" the wheels of the plane ... The main thing is that no one commands you !!!
    -------------------------
    The personality is absolutely inadequate, driven by the bottle and the environment! And the environment - that’s it: A.K., P.A., G.B. ....
    ... In general, is Yeltsin lying in the famous Novodevichy grave? Mukhin had a theory that Yeltsin died in Germany from a heart attack in 96, and the man - the so-called. "Yeltsin" was his double. Therefore, I did not communicate with Naina ...
  5. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 24 January 2017 07: 46
    +6
    How Gorbachev was circled around his finger

    If a person himself longs to be deceived, then he does not need to be circled around a finger. Verbiage with the wrong Russian language, henpecked, limp, etc. just deserved it. But Burbulis, Koch, Aven and others like them should have trampled the zone for a long time, but they were given the opportunity to calmly leave.
  6. iouris
    iouris 24 January 2017 11: 24
    0
    Koch, Aven, and, moreover, Burbulis, are cheap. At that time they were just nobody. Gorbachev and this whole audience acted according to one scenario.
  7. ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH
    ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH 24 January 2017 12: 10
    +1
    There is a version: the putsch on August 19 is a conspiracy of Yeltsin / Khasbulatov and the national leaders of the Union republics against the Union led by Gorbachev. And M.S. Gorbachev indirectly confirms this. .
    1. iouris
      iouris 25 January 2017 22: 16
      +1
      This is the wrong version.
  8. pussamussa
    pussamussa 24 January 2017 14: 01
    0
    Gorbachev give Berezovsky a scarf. With instructions.
    1. iouris
      iouris 25 January 2017 22: 17
      0
      He will soon be judged by a higher court.
  9. vladimirvn
    vladimirvn 24 January 2017 21: 25
    +2
    Gorbachev fought not for the Union, but for power. They all fought for power there. The country and the people were only a means of achieving this power. And therefore, they are all enemies. Let them and their descendants be damned to the tenth tribe, for the immeasurable suffering plunged into the chaos of our people. am
  10. Nitarius
    Nitarius 26 January 2017 08: 16
    +1
    Some are still alive ... CAN BE ABLE TO HANG ...
    1. pussamussa
      pussamussa 27 January 2017 14: 04
      0
      That's right, comrade Putin. Soak them all in the outhouse. Starting with a hunchback.
  11. Altona
    Altona 26 January 2017 18: 44
    0
    I don’t even know how to comment. Dialogue of characters with reduced social responsibility about other such characters who accidentally find themselves in power and exchange the country and people for a bottle and the protection of the West.