Military Review

NEP: the experiment began

594
Of course, the new economic policy (NEP) was the largest turn in the policy of the Bolsheviks, which, however, like the policy of war communism, was initially more of an impromptu rather than a well-thought-out party program for a long historical perspective.


NEP: the experiment began


For the first time, the question of replacing the surplus with tax in kind was considered by the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of 8 in February of 1921, where Lenin's “Preliminary, draft sketch of theses about the peasants” was discussed. Then, on February 24, the Politburo commission presented to the Plenum of the Central Committee “A draft decree of the Central Committee on replacing development with a natural tax”, which, after intensive discussion and refinement, was submitted to the 10th Congress of the RCP (b).

15 March 1921 of the year, on the penultimate day of the congress, Vladimir Lenin delivered a keynote report “On replacing development with tax in kind”. The report itself and its main provisions, as well as the food report of the People's Commissar of Food Alexander Tsyurupy, caused a real shock to many of the congress delegates, who regarded the transition to a new economic policy as a betrayal of the ideals of October. The clearest evidence of this state of shock of the majority of the delegates to the party congress was the fact that after only four speakers spoke, the debate on this issue, due to the lack of speakers, ceased. That is why, explaining to all his fellow party members the need for such a sharp turn, Lenin emphasized the fact that the NEP is a “temporary retreat caused by the failures of the policy of military communism”, which became the detonator of mass peasant uprisings and the Kronstadt insurgency. It is no coincidence that in April 1921 of the year in his famous article “On food tax”, he directly wrote that “the economy of the spring of 1921 of the year turned into politics: Kronstadt”.

In Soviet historiography (Esfir Genkina, Vladimir Dmitrenko), it was traditionally stated that in his report at the 10th RCP (b) Congress, Lenin put forward a “deeply argued comprehensive program for the restructuring of economic relations" based on a detailed analysis of the changed alignment of class forces in the country. At the same time, in modern historiography (Mikhail Gorinov, Vladimir Kabanov), on the contrary, there was a strong opinion that in this report the concept of the NEP was “not a strictly scientific theory”, but a set of certain forced measures that were empirically influenced by powerful peasant uprisings. covering the entire territory of the country.

Initially, the Lenin report dealt only with the elimination of the most important element of the policy of war communism — the state monopoly and direct state regulation of the entire agricultural production and the normative distribution of products, that is, the excess development.

Naturally, the transition to a new taxation system for all peasant farms put on the agenda the question of the inevitable revival of free trade. And it is precisely this circumstance that caused a considerable part of the delegates to the congress a complete misunderstanding and rejection, because directly in free trade the overwhelming part of the party members saw the main threat of the revival of capitalism in the country.

In connection with this circumstance, Lenin, still in captivity of the old military communist illusions, initially intended to limit commodity circulation on a local scale and came to the conviction of creating a direct, rather than a market mechanism for commodity exchange through the consumer operation and the extensive apparatus of the People's Commissariat of Food in the center and in the field. However, this conviction of the leader soon broke about the realities of life, and he was forced to recognize the need to recreate a full-fledged system of free trade throughout the country.

In March-April, 1921, by decision of the 10th Congress, special commissions of the Central Committee of the RKP (b) and the Council of People's Commissars on the tax and finance were created to form the basis of the economic mechanism of the NEP. At the head of the first commission, which included Andrei Andreev, Vladimir Milyutin, Alexei Rykov, Alexander Tsyurup and others, a member of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the RKP (b) and deputy chairman of the SNK of the RSFSR Lev Kamenev. And the second commission was headed by a member of the Central Committee and chairman of the Finance Committee of the SNK of the RSFSR, Yevgeny Preobrazhensky. The main task of the Lev Kamenev Commission was to prepare the necessary regulatory and management decisions for the transition to the new tax system and the reform of various forms of cooperation. The main task of the “Commission of Yevgeny Preobrazhensky” was to radically reorganize the entire circulation of money, the credit system, budget relations, etc.



In April, 1921, in his famous article “On Food Taxes,” Vladimir Lenin already spoke at length about the NEP as a return to elements of the state capitalism system, through which one can and should make a smooth and much less painful transition to socialism. At the same time, to all his numerous opponents and critics, including in the top party leadership, he directly pointed out the fact that “the NEP has more old than new”, reminding them the foundations of the party economic platform contained in its “April theses ”, and his articles“ On the tasks of our revolution ”(1918) and“ The next tasks of Soviet power ”(1918).

Let me remind you that back in April 1918, Lenin had the idea of ​​turning from a “Red Guard attack on capital” to his “siege through the system of state capitalism”. Such a sharp turn in the economic policy of the Bolsheviks turned out to be caused by a number of circumstances, namely the realization that: 1) uncertainty continued with the timing of the start of the world proletarian revolution; 2) there was a clear discrepancy between the classical Marxist model of socialism and the actual conditions of a single country, as well as 3) it was impossible to overcome the economic chaos in the country without using the traditional “market” mechanisms and controls.

And then Vladimir Lenin wrote his famous work "The Immediate Tasks of Soviet Power." A number of modern authors (Vadim Rogovin, Gennady Bordyugov, Vladimir Kozlov) called it the first draft of the Leninist concept of the NEP, the implementation of which then failed because of the outbreak of the Civil War. The essence of the main Leninist provisions set forth in this work was as follows:

a) on the line of formal socialization of production "we went too far and switched to a disproportionately greater breakdown of the old relations than we thought ... Today, only the blind do not see what we have nationalized, confiscated, filled and broke, than we managed to count";
b) now the center of gravity of work must shift to questions of “comprehensive state accounting and control over the production and distribution of the social product” and increase in labor productivity;

c) under current conditions, “state capitalism would be a salvation for us, since it is something centralized, calculated, controlled and socialized”.

In other words, in “state capitalism” Lenin saw a real mechanism of compromise between the Soviet state and the bourgeoisie, which could not only save the country's economy from complete collapse and collapse, but also create the necessary conditions for building the foundations of socialism in the country.



However, it would be a gross mistake to present the matter in such a way that, in Lenin's interpretation, state capitalism of the 1921 model of the year was an exact copy of the state capitalism of the 1918 model of the year. A similar approach, characteristic of Soviet historiography (Andrei Levin, Yuri Polyakov, Vladimir Dmitrenko, Natalia Scherban), is quite legitimately criticized by a number of modern authors (Mikhail Gorinov, Sergei Tsakunov, Sergei Kara-Murza), who pay attention to a number of significant circumstances:

a) in 1918, Lenin did not call for the restoration of the former system of state capitalism, but merely pointed out that the transition to socialism would be much easier if state capitalism at the present stage would become the leading economic system in the country;

b) in the 1921 year, it was about creating state capitalism not as a complete economic system, but as separate elements admitted to a number of economic areas, in particular, to the system of commodity exchange;

c) after Lenin became convinced that the system of commodity exchange on the basis of state capitalism failed, he puts on the agenda an absolutely new task, which now should form the "basis and essence of our new economic policy" - the creation of a system of state regulation of sale and purchase and monetary circulation.

Therefore, in May 1921, at the XI (extraordinary) party conference, Lenin stated that in such a petty-bourgeois country as Russia, the main task of the party is to search for special intermediate links and additional forms of transition from bourgeois to socialist relations.



In the summer of 1921, in the conditions of the most severe drought and terrible famine that hit the main grain-producing regions of the country - the Middle Volga region and the North Caucasus - the government was forced to abolish the state system of exchange of goods and included traditional market mechanisms. Therefore, already in November 1921 of the year in his famous work “On the Value of Gold Now and after the Complete Victory of Socialism”, Lenin unexpectedly completely rehabilitated the idea of ​​“reformism” in the Marxist teaching, which the Bolsheviks traditionally rejected as a revisionist idea, imposed on all the “unstable Marxists” by the renegade Edward Bershtein in the beginning. Xnumx's. It was in this work that the leader of the Bolshevik party declared for the first time that at the present historical moment "we have a vital need to resort to the reformist, gradual, cautiously-workaround method of action in the core issues of economic construction." In this case, a little later, explaining his seditious conclusion to all Bolsheviks, Lenin directly wrote that the essence of reformism is “not to break the old way”, but to “revive capitalism” in every possible way and subject to its development and revival to state regulation traditional capitalism, that is, trade, money circulation, small and medium entrepreneurship, etc.

Thus, Lenin's conclusion about the need for widespread use of market relations in the conditions of peasant Russia during the transition period is the fundamentally new thing that significantly distinguished Lenin's “plan to build socialism” in the autumn of 1921 from its earlier announced plans, including the initial period of the NEP.

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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 14 January 2017 05: 43
    +6
    So, so .... What would the juvenile cancel again from Kronstadt to shoot again?
    1. Cat
      Cat 14 January 2017 08: 40
      +4
      I draw your attention ..... to the children's books of V. Krapivin. In the last few, he addresses the issue of juvenile justice through the eyes of children. To be honest, sometimes it gets sick of modern society.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 14 January 2017 07: 59
    +3
    It is difficult to disagree with the author .. Thank you ..
    1. Cat
      Cat 14 January 2017 08: 42
      +2
      I will ask a question to which I myself do not know the answer. But what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?
      1. Gerard Roussillon
        Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 10: 32
        +6
        But what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?

        Nowhere did Marxist ideas work. In no country
        1. 34 region
          34 region 14 January 2017 14: 44
          +10
          10.32. Gerard! Didn’t work anywhere? But what about the constant nods to Swedish socialism? DPRK manages to live in blockade. Libya lived well. Cuba is not dying. And which of the modern countries is striding broadly economically, changing the pace of growth of the USSR of the 30s and 50s? Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine? Indeed, there today it is not Marxist, but petty-bourgeois ideology. Why is the crisis today in the capitalist system?
          1. Gerard Roussillon
            Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 15: 19
            +7
            But what about the constant nods to Swedish socialism?

            Lexical sophistry. This is capitalism, reformed in a certain way under the influence of a modern humanistic society.
            • DPRK manages to live in blockade

            I watched a documentary about North Korea at night. I could not sleep until morning.
            Libya lived well
            There are colossal oil reserves.
            . And who of modern countries is striding economically,

            Many countries have peaked. Who said that development should be endless. Development is associated with technologies that have a limit. The age of steam, the age of gasoline, the age of atom .... there will be new technologies - there will be a new impetus in development
            Why is the crisis today in the capitalist system?

            It depends on what is considered a crisis. If you look at bourgeois salaries and pensions paid for decades, there is no crisis
            1. 34 region
              34 region 14 January 2017 21: 18
              +3
              15.19. Gerard! Oh well! Blessed is he who believes. What do not like the DPRK? On their own, they even manage to engage in nuclear weapons in the blockade. The whole world is helping Afghanistan and Iraq. And where are their successes in the development of high technology? Arabs are lazy? But how did Iraq live under Saddam? How did Libya live under Gaddafi? Come on about them. Take Russia. How much technology are developing and living standards rising? Does the West mean no crisis today?
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 23: 53
                +1
                What do not like the DPRK?
                I compare life in North and South Korea. In my wonderful illustration
                The whole world is helping Afghanistan and Iraq. And where are their successes in the development of high technology?
                science and technology are not about them. Islam preaches family values, great obligations to members of a kind, and scientific work requires self-denial. Arabs the main thing is khanum and hookah.
                But how did Iraq live under Saddam? How did Libya live under Gaddafi?
                Traditional semi-feudal societies have existed and have existed for centuries. In addition, these are the largest oil suppliers to the world market. They sold oil and lived on considerable oil revenues.
                Take Russia. How much technology are developing and living standards rising?

                Russia always develops spasmodically. A quarter century of stagnation - a quarter century of activity and development
                Does the West mean no crisis today?

                There is always a crisis. Another thing is that the Western system has been tested for centuries and functions well. We ought to get so rotten as they are.
                1. 34 region
                  34 region 15 January 2017 02: 09
                  +4
                  23.53. Gerard! North and South Korea is an illustration of technology development in isolation or in conditions of financial support. About the inefficiency of the command and administrative system is also not necessary. In TNCs, it is well developed and gives excellent results. And the result is the absorption (ruin) of small business and competitors. Under normal economic conditions, Arabs work no worse than Europeans. Just look at the houses and roads in Syria. Even in war conditions, their quality is visible. But in your commentary this is propaganda of racial superiority. Yes, it seems before Stalin, Russia never developed at such a pace. Although Peter in every possible way welcomed foreigners, both Nicholas 2 and Putin today are trying to kick the foreigners into Russia almost with kicks. Well, about the proven Western system is not necessary. Shit else. How long have they become washed (thanks to Peter!)?
                  1. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 12: 11
                    +2
                    North and South Korea is an illustration of technology development in isolation or in conditions of financial support.
                    Maybe just a country with 20 million people is not able to maintain a millionth army and military infrastructure.

                    But in your commentary this is propaganda of racial superiority.

                    Come on, we’re ISIS watching these nice people burn each other on camera in their cells. Fanatics
                    Well, about the proven Western system is not necessary. Shit else. How long have they become washed (thanks to Peter!)

                    The Romans did not get out of the baths. Did Peter teach them that?
                    1. Vitalson
                      Vitalson 20 January 2017 16: 33
                      0
                      The Romans were so long ago and their empire called European only among people like you, the language can turn. After the Roman Empire collapsed, I did not observe in the mention of the history of the Middle Ages that Europeans were engaged in hygiene. Moreover, even now in Europe and America (seyernaya), a disease such as pediculosis is not rare. Only before the gay people didn’t wash for religious reasons, now for economic reasons. Their communal apartment is expensive.
                    2. Vitalson
                      Vitalson 20 January 2017 19: 08
                      0
                      The Roman Empire can not be compared with the European; these are different cultures. Same as the ancient Egyptian kingdom and modern dull and flawed Egypt.
            2. Vitalson
              Vitalson 20 January 2017 16: 28
              0
              And you look less for the night ....... And then in yosya Goebbels, in his propaganda, Russia also demonized and thus brought the Germans to suicide when the Soviet troops took Berlin. After all, naive German residents seriously thought that Russians are not people, that they drink human blood. And then I watched a film about the DPRK, look what an impressionable one. The director for an hour not from the USA or Geyropa will have this film. Have the courage to go see for yourself. Not all of the third-rate "resorts" of Turkey are olinfluxes.
              1. JS20
                JS20 21 January 2017 14: 09
                0
                Quote: Vitalson
                And then I watched a film about the DPRK, what an impressionable one. The director will not be from the United States or Geyropa for this film.

                YouTube is full of films shot by Russian tourists.
            3. Vitalson
              Vitalson 20 January 2017 19: 03
              0
              You are respected Gerard, an adult, I hope in any case, but you still believe everything that is shown on TV and you probably talk to him like Ivan Dulin. I also watched the program "America with Mikhail Taratuta" at one time ...... continue to continue or guess what I wanted to say?
          2. JS20
            JS20 14 January 2017 18: 27
            +6
            Quote: Region 34
            But what about the constant nods to Swedish socialism?

            Soviet "socialism" has nothing to do with Swedish. As, incidentally, Soviet "socialism" has nothing to do with the concept of "socialism" in general. It was just empty verbal balancing act of the Bolsheviks.
            Quote: Region 34
            DPRK manages to live in blockade.

            Rather, to exist. Life there is hard to call life.
            Quote: Region 34
            Libya lived well.

            What did Libya have to do with "socialism"?
            Quote: Region 34
            Cuba is not dying.

            Very soon, "Cuban socialism" will die. He is living out his last years.
            Quote: Region 34
            Why is the crisis today in the capitalist system?

            Is there a crisis in the capitalist system?
            Unless, economic. But the economic crisis under capitalism is an element of the adjustment of its economic system. Those. normal, healthy phenomenon.
            1. 34 region
              34 region 14 January 2017 21: 22
              +5
              18.27. High social guarantees are not socialism? And then what is socialism? And why are living conditions in Russia better than living conditions in the DPRK? If before Castro, Cuba was a brothel, is that normal? If capitalism is so reliable, then why does it break down all the time (crisis comes)?
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 00: 05
                +2
                And why are living conditions in Russia better than living conditions in the DPRK?
                Are you laughing? Well, at least the presence of products and goods in stores, with free access.
                If before Castro, Cuba was a brothel, is that normal?
                There is Paris and Amsterdam, nothing, people live like that. Cuba took its place in the international division of labor))
                If capitalism is so reliable, then why does it break all the time?

                And what is this? Is this the crisis?
                1. 34 region
                  34 region 15 January 2017 02: 19
                  +3
                  00.05. Gerard! Are there no stores in the DPRK? There were shops in the USSR. And there were products in them. And the price was stable on them. At least last year, at least this year. And is it possible to eat today's products? How natural and healthy are they? Are there too many chemistry in them? Do you have three or four refrigerators, three or four wives at home now, do you eat three first courses and three second courses at once? Or do you live in poverty as in the Union and manage alone? Paris and Amsterdam live not only in prostitution. Paris was also the textile capital. And does prostitution mean the norm of life? How to drink a glass of water? Well, at least a decline in production, is this not a crisis? Does the Great Depression take off?
              2. JS20
                JS20 15 January 2017 00: 31
                +3
                Quote: Region 34
                High social guarantees are not socialism?

                And there were "high social guarantees" in the USSR? What were they?
                Quote: Region 34
                And why are living conditions in Russia better than living conditions in the DPRK?

                Are you out of your mind asking this?
                Quote: Region 34
                If before Castro, Cuba was a brothel, is that normal?

                Do not worry. There is every reason to believe that after the Castro regime, it will be a brothel. Only prices will be lower than before socialism. At first. Still, the people were emaciated. Starving.
                Quote: Region 34
                If capitalism is so reliable, then why is it breaking all the time (crisis comes)

                Crises are not a breakdown of capitalism. This is the mechanism for setting it up.
                1. 34 region
                  34 region 15 January 2017 02: 30
                  +3
                  00.31. And the guarantees of free medicine and education? Warranty 8 hour business day and annual leave? Guarantee of payment of sick leave and vacation? Do we have this today? So how are living conditions in the DPRK worse than in Russia? The besieged Leningrad (like the DPRK today) lived certainly worse than the rear cities. What is better with us than in the DPRK? Financial rations? Many of us can travel abroad (cities) of the country? Formally they can. And financially? How many salaries does a worker need to buy a car for 1 million rubles? And how many salaries do we have for rent? Is crisis a setting? A crisis is collectivization in which there is a purchase of assets at a low price, and at the same time the destruction of competitors. What about Cuba? Only capable of prostitution? And did the USA give her a chance to rise technologically?
                  1. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 12: 32
                    +1
                    A guarantee of free medicine and education

                    Who pays for "free" medicine? First, this money is taken from the pockets of the working people. And if I am not sick, why should I pay for others? What if I am not satisfied with the dull quality of education?
                    How many salaries does a worker need to buy a car for 1 million rubles?
                    If there is a salary for a guard, no salaries will be enough. Such a rabonik suitable 20-year-old Lada
                    Guarantee of payment of sick leave and vacation?

                    Find a second job. In the morning you are a courier - in the evening an accountant. Set aside for vacation and sick leave. Buy last-minute tours. Don't be lazy.
                    And how many salaries do we have for rent?

                    Does your rent cover several salaries? Yes, you are lucky, you live in the palace, such a rent
                    What about Cuba? Only capable of prostitution? And did the USA give her a chance to rise technologically?

                    The United States is not poor.
                    USSR pulled her pulled but all to no avail
                  2. JS20
                    JS20 15 January 2017 16: 41
                    +2
                    Quote: Region 34
                    And the guarantees of free medicine and education?

                    Those. if you take everything away from a person, and then somehow, through a stump-deck, heal him, and teach something a little, is this called "high social guarantees"?
                    Quote: Region 34
                    Warranty 8 hour business day and annual leave?

                    Forced Labor Day, you forgot to write. Under "socialism" those who did not want such happiness were imprisoned. Under "developed socialism", for 15 days.
                    Shut down "social guarantees". The yoke is passed off as a blessing, as always in the Looking Glass.
                    Quote: Region 34
                    Guarantee of payment of sick leave and vacation? Do we have this today?

                    Do you often visit Russia?
                    Quote: Region 34
                    So how are living conditions in the DPRK worse than in Russia?

                    Clear. Infrequently.
            2. Vitalson
              Vitalson 20 January 2017 19: 05
              0
              Verbal ekklebibristika is that miraculously survived Bandera flayers, fleeing in the United States and Canada in portions that were already charmed with fear, told the locals and then to their back bites what a bad comrade Stalin was.
              1. JS20
                JS20 21 January 2017 14: 11
                +1
                Quote: Vitalson
                that miraculously the surviving Bandera flayers, who fled to the United States and Canada in portions that were fear-embarrassed, told the locals and then their bad comrade Stalin what a bad comrade.

                I do not read them, I am not interested.
                I’m embarrassed to ask, but what port did you flee to the Czech Republic?
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 14 January 2017 10: 40
        +2
        Cat..
        But what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?
        ... There are many answers ... and all are different ..
        1. teder
          teder 14 January 2017 10: 42
          +10
          Quote: parusnik
          Cat..
          But what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?
          ... There are many answers ... and all are different ..

          One option
          Doctor! Help! My grandmother has been lying in bed for a month now, doesn’t move, her eyes are closed ... very bad, she’s dying. What should I do?!
          - Grandpa, have you tried to fuck her?
          - Why are you a doctor! What are you saying?! Us
          with grandmother 80 years old! I am an old communist, in my arms is Lenin
          dying! And what are you saying "fuck"!
          - Grandfather, I’m telling you as a doctor, fuck and take everything off at hand.
          Well, the grandfather came, drank a stopar. ate a handful
          pills .. climbed on the grandmother. Did the thing. Wakes up, and the grandmother by the stove
          troubles ... make-up .. hairdo done .. Bloomed .. Sings songs ..
          Grandfather wondered ..
          - Fuck it !! After all, I could save Lenin
      3. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 18: 21
        +3
        Quote: Kotischa
        I will ask a question to which I myself do not know the answer. But what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?

        Great question, cat. I guess it would be something like modern China. Where is now also "state capitalism" (in the USSR it was called NEP). And for sure, what would NEVER happen is Dzhugashvili socialism. Which he introduced in the USSR after the death of Ulyanov.
        On the other hand, who knows, who banged Ulyanov? Maybe people Dzhugashvili. Or maybe the people of Trotsky. Or maybe someone else. He interfered with many, especially with his NEP, which prevented the Bolsheviks from occupying an exclusive status in society. Therefore, after the introduction of the NEP, he was not a tenant. And he simply couldn’t live for 15 years, they wouldn’t give.
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 14 January 2017 20: 15
          +5
          Quote: JS20
          Quote: Kotischa
          I will ask a question to which I myself do not know the answer. But what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?

          I guess it would be something like modern China. Where is now also "state capitalism" (in the USSR it was called NEP). And for sure, what would NEVER happen is Dzhugashvilev socialism. Which he introduced in the USSR after the death of Ulyanov ..

          Why rave? Under the NEP, the USSR would not have become. The country was saved by "Dzhugashvilev socialism". And in 1941, and in 1960, and in 1991, and now we live thanks to him. LEARN history, student.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Gerard Roussillon
            Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 00: 12
            +1
            Under the NEP there would be no USSR

            What are you saying? In short, there would be no life without the Bolsheviks. How do they live now?
          3. JS20
            JS20 15 January 2017 00: 37
            +1
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            Under the NEP there would be no USSR.

            Would any meteorite come from outer space? Or would a tsunami hit?
            Do you think that if people would live well, then they would not need the USSR?
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            The country was saved by "Dzhugashvilev socialism".

            What did you save from? From a good level of well-being and a well-fed life?
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            And in 1941, and in 1960, and in 1991, and now we live thanks to him.

            Complete nonsense. Socialism, What did he do with the insemination of women?
            But the fact that there are so few of us today is precisely the "merit" of Dzhugashvili and his "socialism".
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            TEACH STORY, DU.

            Exactly. The phrase is just about you.
            1. 34 region
              34 region 15 January 2017 02: 39
              +3
              00.37. Well, nonsense! When the king all lived prosperously? After the 91-93th, everyone became prosperous? And then what is prosperity and a good standard of living? Under socialism, there was more free time. Today, more and more at work, there is no time to live. So they were engaged in the insemination of women under socialism. The population grew with him. And today migrants help us, then Crimeans. After the annexation of Crimea, as we have sharply the population increased then! After the 90s, did Stalin reduce our population and territory?
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 12: 37
                +1
                Under socialism, there was more free time. Today, more and more at work, there is no time to live.

                Therefore, socialism collapsed
                1. Mavrikiy
                  Mavrikiy 15 January 2017 15: 22
                  +6
                  Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                  Under socialism, there was more free time. Today, more and more at work, there is no time to live.

                  Therefore, socialism collapsed

                  There is no need to rave. Economically, we defeated the West. But socialism collapsed due to the corrupt elite.
                  1. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 17: 11
                    +1
                    Economically we defeated the West

                    Our cars were worse, electronics - worse, apartments - worse ... by what parameters of victory is that?
                    . But socialism collapsed due to the corrupt elite.
                    Well, and who is corrupt and who is not? Party organizer corrupt? What about the Komsomol? The director is definitely corrupt. Garage corruptible? Surely corrupt. Chippings shears from drivers
                  2. JS20
                    JS20 15 January 2017 19: 09
                    +2
                    Quote: Mavrikiy
                    Economically, we defeated the West.

                    Apparently, therefore, the "winners" in skinny pants and bad teeth laid siege to grocery stores for hours to buy a pile of bones called a "soup set" and other similar nasty things.
                    Quote: Mavrikiy
                    But socialism collapsed due to the corrupt elite.

                    How can you buy people living under communism (in the USSR it was called "on state support") and sitting on the "red button"?
                    Do you even think sometimes.
              2. JS20
                JS20 15 January 2017 14: 57
                +2
                Quote: Region 34
                When the king all lived prosperously?

                Not poor. Compared to "socialism". Even Persek Khrushchev wrote about this. It’s hard to suspect him of sympathy for tsarism.
                Quote: Region 34
                After the 91-93th, everyone became prosperous?

                Yes, the standard of living of the population in the post-Soviet space has dramatically increased.
                Quote: Region 34
                The population grew with him.

                So what? Is this a sign of prosperity or what? Then in Africa live the most wealthy people on Earth.
                And then, explain to me why the country's population must grow? What kind of a sign of prosperity is this?
                Quote: Region 34
                After the 90s, did Stalin reduce our population and territory?

                No, mostly Ulyanov. Well, the subsequent supreme shamans of "socialism", starting with Dzhugashvili, too, of course. Because they left the Ulyanovsk form of the state structure of the USSR.
            2. Mavrikiy
              Mavrikiy 15 January 2017 15: 31
              +5
              Quote: JS20
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              Under the NEP there would be no USSR.

              Would any meteorite come from outer space? Or would a tsunami hit?
              Do you think that if people would live well, then they would not need the USSR?
              I think prosperously living France, Poland, Czechoslovakia very widely spread their legs in front of Hitler. Canada, too, would gladly surrender. And only we survived and won.
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              The country was saved by "Dzhugashvilev socialism".

              What did you save from? From a good level of well-being and a well-fed life?
              By yourself, you measure the world, "well-fed life" .. Push your legs apart and on the panel, there they are waiting for such people and well fed.
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              And in 1941, and in 1960, and in 1991, and now we live thanks to him.

              Complete nonsense. Socialism, What did he do with the insemination of women?
              But the fact that there are so few of us today is precisely the "merit" of Dzhugashvili and his "socialism".
              We are enough to drive you into the asphalt.
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              TEACH STORY, DU.

              Exactly. The phrase is just about you.

              I repeat: LEARN the story, quartet
              1. JS20
                JS20 15 January 2017 19: 02
                +3
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                I repeat: LEARN the story, quartet

                Pot calls the kettle black.
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                We are enough to drive you into the asphalt.

                No, your time is up. And it will never come again. The most you can do is whine and smear snot "about the wonderful life under socialism" on the internet.
                Those. lie cheekbone.
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                And only we survived and won.

                "Only we" 24.09.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX signed the Atlantic Charter. And that says it all.
                Therefore, your "revelations" are not even funny.
                1. Mavrikiy
                  Mavrikiy 15 January 2017 19: 51
                  +4
                  So you want to learn history? Well then, chew the fallen maple leaf and the leagues .... that they will set you up.
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 16 January 2017 01: 18
                    +1
                    Quote: Mavrikiy
                    licking .... that will set up.

                    I do not have your habits. Therefore, I leave this to you, a professional.
                    1. Mavrikiy
                      Mavrikiy 16 January 2017 05: 24
                      +3
                      Quote: JS20
                      Quote: Mavrikiy
                      licking .... that will set up.

                      I do not have your habits. Therefore, I leave this to you, a professional.

                      Do not pretend to be. Liberast is always corrupt, especially for grants. And they are not so easily given, but only for tolerance. Genes. We understand, but do not forgive.
                      How to forgive the betrayal of the homeland and its people? Only the highest measure.
  3. Boris55
    Boris55 14 January 2017 08: 32
    +5
    The emergence of the NEP is the result of bluntly following the teachings of K. Marx, which does not work under socialism. The NEP is an attempt by those who have seized power to return the country to the capitalist path of development ...

    The economic problems of socialism in the USSR I.V. Stalin. 1952
    "... Therefore, those comrades are completely wrong who declare that since socialist society does not eliminate commodity forms of production, we should supposedly restore all the economic categories characteristic of capitalism: labor power as a commodity, surplus value, capital, profit for capital, average rate of return, etc. ...
    Moreover, I think that it is necessary to discard some other concepts taken from Marx's Capital, where Marx analyzed capitalism, and artificially glued to our socialist relations. I mean, among other things, such concepts as "necessary" and "surplus" labor, "necessary" and "surplus" product, "necessary" and "surplus" labor time. ... But it is more than strange to use these concepts now, when the working class is not only not deprived of power and means of production, but, on the contrary, holds power in its hands and owns the means of production. Now, under our system, the words about labor power as a commodity and about the "hiring" of workers sound quite absurd: as if the working class, which owns the means of production, hires itself and sells its labor power to itself. It is just as strange now to speak of "necessary" and "surplus" labor ...
    I think that our economists should do away with this discrepancy between the old concepts and the new state of affairs ... We could tolerate this discrepancy until a certain time, but now the time has come when we must finally eliminate this discrepancy ... "
    1. 34 region
      34 region 14 January 2017 14: 53
      +4
      08.32. Boris55! NEP is a pragmatic view of life. Where, instead of the imputed tax (surplus appraisal), income tax was introduced. The realized ideas of Gaidar before his birth. Our modern 90s. But in those years, management quickly learned, tested ideas, and quickly corrected mistakes. Lenin was far from bone thinking. Sorry died early.
      1. Gerard Roussillon
        Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 15: 23
        +3
        Lenin was far from bone thinking. Sorry died early.

        Yes, I didn’t manage to ruin everything. Mostly affected industry and transport. Other General Secretaries Engaged in Agriculture
        1. 34 region
          34 region 14 January 2017 21: 25
          +5
          15.23. Gerard! How could Lenin have ruined everything if everything had been ruined before him? And before Lenin was Kerensky. Well, how did Kerensky disperse Russia?
          1. Gerard Roussillon
            Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 00: 16
            +2
            How could Lenin have ruined everything if everything had been ruined before him?

            The factories worked poorly poorly, banks functioned, bakeries baked bread. ... and then Lenin came. And none of this happened ...
            1. 34 region
              34 region 15 January 2017 02: 49
              +4
              00.16. and 01.16. Do not carry nonsense. Lenin ditched production !? What did he ditch interestingly? But after the 90s, they definitely ruined everything, but before that everything worked. High interest rates today is not an extra surplus? The rise in prices and tariffs is not an extra surplus? If Lenin lived another 20 years, we would have all rushed! Thanks, Stalin was not allowed to fall. And if White came to power, all of Russia would be sold under the hammer. I, too, are fighters for Russia's bright future with Western money. Their grandchildren came to power in the 90s and realized the dream of their white grandfathers. And just like their grandfathers came on Western money.
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 12: 45
                +1
                . Lenin ditched production !? What did he ditch interestingly?
                Ah, you are finally interested! Enterprises were confiscated, freedom of trade was abolished, the tax service was abolished, banks were nationalized, many factories were stolen by their own workers, uncontrolled printing of money and hyperinflation began. Then military communism was introduced. Soldering. Gunmen were shot, famine began. Didn't you know that?
            2. PHANTOM-AS
              PHANTOM-AS 15 January 2017 19: 41
              +5
              Quote: Gerard Roussillon
              The factories worked poorly poorly, banks functioned, bakeries baked bread. ... and then Lenin came. And none of this happened ...

              Nonsense and the monstrous lie of the Yakovlevsky bottling.
              What will be next?
          2. JS20
            JS20 15 January 2017 01: 16
            +2
            Quote: Region 34
            How could Lenin have ruined everything if everything had been ruined before him?

            What collapsed to Ulyanov?
            Everything worked, everything worked. 3
            Do not invent nonsense.
            1. murriou
              murriou 15 January 2017 08: 09
              +4
              Quote: JS20
              What collapsed to Ulyanov?
              Everything worked, everything worked

              For you, the shameful defeats of tsarist Russia in the REV and WWII, the deep backwardness of its industry, agricultural, education and all other spheres of life are classified. It happens. Sorry crying
      2. Boris55
        Boris55 14 January 2017 17: 20
        +1
        Quote: Region 34
        Lenin was far from bone thinking. Sorry died early.

        And with him in 1924 the NEP also died, not immediately, by 1929, but died ... and if Lenin had not died, perhaps the NEP would have simply transformed ordinary capitalism ...
        1. JS20
          JS20 14 January 2017 18: 33
          +3
          Quote: Boris55
          and if Lenin had not died, perhaps the NEP would have simply transformed ordinary capitalism ...

          That would be cool. Because the first stage of "ordinary capitalism" is what today, at the suggestion of the Bolsheviks, is usually called the term "fascism" (as a general, not purely Italian phenomenon).
          However, in my opinion, this term is not very suitable, since only by its sound it scares the population of some countries to hiccups. Therefore, it is more correct to use the term "Bonapartism". After all, the first "fascist" in Europe was Napoleon Bonaparte. Or Cromwell? I don't remember now. But "cromwellism" somehow does not sound so beautiful.
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 14 January 2017 20: 05
            +4
            Quote: JS20
            Therefore, it is more correct to use the term "Bonapartism". After all, the first "fascist" in Europe was Napoleon Bonaparte. Or Cromwell? I don't remember now

            And it all started with Christianity ...
      3. teder
        teder 14 January 2017 19: 28
        +2
        Quote: Region 34
        Lenin was far from bone thinking.


        Yes, the creative just felled him.


        Quote: Region 34
        Sorry died early.

        It’s a pity that he was born at all.
        1. 34 region
          34 region 14 January 2017 21: 28
          +3
          19.28. It is a pity that he died early. What do not like in Ulyanov? Unlike modern leadership, I thought and studied very quickly. Although the leadership today is also lawyers.
          1. Gerard Roussillon
            Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 00: 20
            +1
            What do not like in Ulyanov? Unlike modern leadership, I thought and studied very quickly.

            Maybe he played a good fool, but people are still judged by the results of his affairs, and the results were deplorable
            1. 34 region
              34 region 15 January 2017 02: 53
              +3
              00.20. Gerard! For whom are the results deplorable? For the financial international? Yes! For him they are deplorable. But for Russia, no.
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 13: 42
                +1
                For whom are the results deplorable?

                By the time Lenin’s existence ended, Russia was in ruins
  4. cap
    cap 14 January 2017 08: 46
    +11
    What cannot be denied to Vladimir Lenin (Ulyanov), he knew how to quickly "change shoes" as it is fashionable to say now. As chairman of the Council of People's Commissars in a devastated country to carry out reforms so ambiguous from the point of view of classical Marxism, of course, his undoubted merit. And if you look at the personnel he attracted to this work, which in many ways did not share the ideas of the Bolsheviks, you will think even more. own approach to the development of a socialist state. The key works that are not mentioned in the article "State and Revolution", well, and also "Banks and their new role under socialism", in these works, there is practically no Lenin who stood on the armored car. Whether it is good or bad we have judged so far. dissertations on this topic candidate and doctoral. But it is impossible to deny that from Russia bast shoes, the country has become an industrial power, already under the leadership of the "real Leninist" I. Dzhugashvili (Stalin), it is impossible, and this is all in the same twenty-odd years, without "nano technologies" of CNC machines and mobile communications along with computers and iPhones.
    1. pimen
      pimen 14 January 2017 08: 54
      +2
      the very ability to "change shoes" is not a vice, if it leads to success (well, it's just that we are not so smart). But the "technique" of coming to power was brilliant (in terms of motivation)
      1. baudolino
        baudolino 14 January 2017 10: 21
        +6
        "The ability to" change shoes "indicates a poor understanding of what he undertook. Building a new economy turned out to be much more difficult than ranting about revolution at rallies. In this sense, Comrade Stalin, who returned to the idea of ​​empire and reduced the fans of the world revolution to zero, turned out to be more consistent ...
        1. 34 region
          34 region 14 January 2017 14: 58
          +3
          10.21. Baidolino! Our leadership today does not change shoes, and does not bend, but stands firmly on its own. Where are the results of such hardness? But judging by the hardness, our leadership understands well what it took!
      2. cap
        cap 14 January 2017 10: 29
        +8
        Quote: pimen
        the very ability to "change shoes" is not a vice, if it leads to success


        Yes, change your shoes as much as you want, the main result. And most importantly, do not confuse slippers laughing
      3. cap
        cap 14 January 2017 17: 35
        +2
        Quote: pimen
        the very ability to "change shoes" is not a vice, if it leads to success (well, it's just that we are not so smart). But the "technique" of coming to power was brilliant (in terms of motivation)


        In terms of motivation, he avenged his brother.
        1. pimen
          pimen 14 January 2017 18: 00
          +1
          I didn’t mean it at all, but the maximum possible cleansing of the ruling elites
      4. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 18: 45
        +3
        Quote: pimen
        But the "technique" of coming to power was brilliant (in terms of motivation)

        Banal counter-revolutionary coup, is it brilliant? What is genius? The fact that trying to stay in power was promised to everyone and all? Peasants land, workers factories / factories. As a result, everyone was deceived, having taken away everything at all.
        "Brilliant", nothing to say.
        1. pimen
          pimen 14 January 2017 18: 55
          +4
          promised and fulfilled. Or do you think that today's private owners-managers-degenerates steer more efficiently?
          1. Gerard Roussillon
            Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 00: 37
            +1
            promised and fulfilled

            From this place in more detail. Just do not need about the fact that the workers owned factories, this is demagogy
          2. JS20
            JS20 15 January 2017 00: 40
            +2
            Quote: pimen
            promised and fulfilled.

            What did you do? Everything was taken away, down to personal plots.
            1. 34 region
              34 region 15 January 2017 02: 54
              +2
              00.40. Why lie then? There were always personal plots. Well, except for high-rise buildings of course. In villages, even near two-story buildings, they planted and planted plants. And the gardens with melons were. The 70-80s was a country boom.
              1. JS20
                JS20 15 January 2017 14: 58
                +2
                Quote: Region 34
                The 70-80s was a country boom.

                In the 70-80s, the Bolsheviks were no longer there.
        2. teder
          teder 14 January 2017 19: 29
          +3
          Quote: JS20
          There are land for people, workers of factories / factories. As a result, everyone was deceived, having taken away everything at all.
          "Brilliant", nothing to say.

          Usually.
          It is ingenious that then the people were squeezed, that they could not utter a word and were convinced that they live in the freest country in the world.
          1. JS20
            JS20 15 January 2017 00: 41
            +2
            Quote: teder
            It is ingenious that then the people were squeezed, that they could not utter a word and were convinced that they live in the freest country in the world.

            Well actually yes. A slave who does not know what freedom is and does not strive for it. And he considers slavery to be a normal state.
        3. 34 region
          34 region 14 January 2017 21: 30
          +3
          18.45. And what is the genius of the coups of the 91-93s? What did they promise us? 19.29. Today they are picking a lot. AND? What about the current opportunity to pick? What is the result of picking?
    2. Gerard Roussillon
      Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 10: 01
      +8
      and this is all over the same twenty-odd years, without the "nanotechnology" of CNC machines, and mobile communications along with computers and iPhones.

      Ford, Autocar, Vickers, Gnome-Ron, Curtis, Spanish-Suiza .... and much much more, all these are Soviet iPhones of those years. Oil and bread flowed to the West, the proceeds were spent, not on raising the living standards of the working people, but on expensive Western technologies. . There were no iPhones? TVs were in series in the 40th, CT and two television studios in Moscow and Leningrad. This despite the fact that household television equipment in the world at that time was about 5 years old.
      1. cap
        cap 14 January 2017 10: 33
        +4
        Quote: Gerard Roussillon
        and on expensive western technology.


        And as a result
        1. Gerard Roussillon
          Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 12: 46
          +5
          And as a result

          Well, how can I tell you. 27-46 million losses plus up to 15 trillion eternally green rubles at current prices

          1. 34 region
            34 region 14 January 2017 15: 01
            +4
            12.46. Gerard! But it was necessary to do like the rest of the European countries? Here they have minimal losses. Are they well done coming out?
            1. Gerard Roussillon
              Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 16: 18
              +4
              But it was necessary to do like the rest of the European countries?

              Yes, imagine. It was necessary to enter the war on the side of France. And do not be wiser with pacts.
            2. JS20
              JS20 14 January 2017 18: 51
              +2
              Quote: Gerard Roussillon
              It was necessary to enter the war on the side of France. And do not be wiser with pacts.

              Uh, no. There was a strategic idea. It was not for nothing that the red generals of the academies did not finish, but they were the most brilliant of all.
              The Germans are at war with the French and British, harassing each other. And at some point we destroy all of them on fast tanks and ours is Europe. Everything is simple and tasteful.
              Then we "build socialism" with the whole of Europe. Those. we are starving, destitute and degraded.
              1. 34 region
                34 region 14 January 2017 21: 34
                +3
                18.51. Even so! Did Stalin bring Hitler to power? Why did neutral Switzerland finance Adolf until April 45th?
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 00: 43
                  +2
                  Quote: Region 34
                  Why did neutral Switzerland finance Adolf until April 45th?

                  Do you have originals of financial documents or do you just grind your tongue like that?
                  1. 34 region
                    34 region 15 January 2017 02: 59
                    +1
                    00.43. And what? Stable burned? Ay yay! You can read on the internet. And whose anti-aircraft guns were Zrlikon?
                    1. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 13: 47
                      +1
                      And whose anti-aircraft guns were Zrlikon?
                      And what does that prove?
                    2. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 14: 20
                      +2
                      Quote: Region 34
                      And whose anti-aircraft guns were Zrlikon?

                      What are you talking about, about trade with Germany? Read about the amounts of trade between the USSR and Germany. If you follow your logic, then this is not Switzerland, but the USSR "financed Adolf". Only your logic is crooked.
              2. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 00: 41
                +1
                Then we "build socialism" with the whole of Europe. Those. we are starving, destitute and degraded.
                Well it is clear.
                The Germans are at war with the French and British, harassing each other
                Here the expectation was like death
          2. Uncle Murzik
            Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 15: 24
            +7
            The USSR fought against virtually all of Europe, the main losses are civilians! Losses in the Great Patriotic War *
            1. Human casualties of the USSR - 6,8 million troops killed, 4,4 million captured and missing. Total demographic losses (including the dead civilian population) - 26,6 million people.
            2. Germany’s casualties - 4,046 million soldiers who died, died from wounds, went missing (including 442,1 thousand dead in captivity), nearly 3 million returned from captivity after the war. The total demographic loss of Germany and its satellites (including the dead civilian population) is 11,8 million people.
            3. The human losses of the countries - allies of Germany - 806 thousand soldiers killed (including 137,8 thousand killed in captivity), another 662,2 thousand returned from captivity after the war.
            4. Irrecoverable losses of the armies of the USSR and Germany (including prisoners of war) - 11,5 million and 8,6 million people (not counting 1,6 million prisoners of war after May 9, 1945), respectively. The ratio of irrecoverable losses of the armies of the USSR and Germany with satellites is 1,3: 1. That is, there is no talk of any "burying the Germans with corpses" and "disproportionate level of military losses".
            * According to data published by a group of researchers led by a consultant to the Military Memorial Center of the RF Armed Forces Grigory Krivosheev in 1993.
            1. Gerard Roussillon
              Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 16: 24
              +3
              - 6,8 million troops killed,

              This data is from 45 g when it was counted only according to the lists of the Red Army. Without militias, for example. Really not less than 11 million
              Total demographic losses (including the dead civilian population) - 26,6 million people.

              And you can paint who died in the blockade, who was a militia, partisan, policeman, Jew. It's impossible.
              Germany's casualties - 4,046 million

              Only the Germans recognize less than 2 million dead. The rest are missing. So share it. 11 million for 2.
              5,5 times.
              Even with the liquidation of the boiler near Stalingrad, killed and wounded lost half a million. The battle of Rzhev is a million. Your 6 million is the loss in the first 2 years of the war.

              .
              1. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 16: 48
                +5
                Gerard of Roussillon, you read at the gozman of these liberal fairy tales! Data of Grigory Krivosheev have not yet been refuted by anyone! and you can think of as many winked
                1. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 00: 52
                  +1
                  you have read these liberal tales at the gozman!

                  Gozman is who?
                  data of Grigory Krivosheev has not yet been refuted by anyone!

                  Your Krivosheev does not make ends meet. I just wrote to you that the militias did not go through the lists of losses, but there were at least 2 million of them. They all perished in the boilers of the 41st. So already lists Krivosheev - bullshit.
                  In June, there were 5 million in the army. And in December 5. About 600 thousand were declared dead. About 3 million were captured.
                  During this period, 14 million were called up.
                  The question is, where did they go? Where else 10? Here it is, your statistics.
                  1. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 03: 39
                    +1
                    Gerard of Roussillon, damn it, you always got popalov! It turns out that the militias were taken into account laughing I know your argument, this is all not true! lol
                    1. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 13: 50
                      +1
                      it turns out militias were counted

                      Maybe taken into account, those who survived after the boilers
              2. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 17: 03
                +4
                However, if, indeed, the Soviet command would put 10 Soviet soldiers for every killed German, then after the Germans would have killed 5 million people, the Soviet Union would have died 50 million - that is, there would be no one to fight more , and in Germany there would still be as many as 18 million men of draft age. And if you count even the allies of Germany, then even more! Critics of Krivosheev often blame him for allegedly not taking into account losses among the divisions of the national militia (DNO), the total number of which was quite large. It is worth noting that, firstly, the militias did not always enter the battle as part of the DNO. So, the militia units of the “first wave” formed in Moscow did not go to the front, but to the Mozhaisk defense line, which was being built in the rear, where they were engaged in combat training and construction of fortifications. In September, the militia divisions were reorganized into the states of the usual rifle divisions of the Red Army. Secondly, all DNDs were subordinate to the army and reported to it. For example, the 2nd division of the LANO (of the Leningrad militia), still in the DNO status (before being reorganized into 85 SD), reported on its losses to the Luga military unit of the Northern Front. Therefore, the losses among the divisions of the people's militia were included in the figures given by Krivosheev.

                Source: http://statehistory.ru/650/poteri-v-vov/
                1. JS20
                  JS20 14 January 2017 19: 04
                  +2
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  that is, there would be no one else to fight with us

                  So there was no one to fight. Right from the fall of 1943. Therefore, further 17-year-olds were taken into the army. Under different crooked pretexts.
                  Just a couple of years, and the front would simply fall apart due to the lack of soldiers in the USSR.
                  1. Cat man null
                    Cat man null 14 January 2017 20: 16
                    +5
                    Quote: JS20
                    So there was no one to fight. Right from the fall of 1943. Therefore, further 17-year-olds were taken into the army. Under different crooked pretexts

                    - hmmm .... you did not confuse the USSR with Germany, for an hour?
                    - Volkssturms, Hitler Youths are all different, they were all in Germany all the same ... and not in the USSR laughing
                    1. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 00: 51
                      +2
                      Quote: Cat Man Null
                      zmmmm .... you did not confuse the USSR with Germany, an hour?

                      Not beguiled. Already in the autumn of 1943. did not know where to get almost 300 thousand people.
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 03: 17
                        +4
                        JS20 old man you lied again, where is it about the 17 year olds? belay
                      2. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 03: 30
                        +5
                        but I will use any reason to mention once again: in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945, the USSR, with an initial strength of 190 million people, fought not with 80 million of the then Germans. The Soviet Union fought practically with the whole of Europe, the number of which (with the exception of England allied to us and partisan Serbia that did not surrender to the Germans) was about 400 million people.

                        During the Great Patriotic War, overcoats in the USSR were put on by 34 thousand people, i.e. 476,7% of the population. And Germany mobilized as much as 17,8% of the population into its armed forces. It would seem that the Germans in their military efforts strained more than the USSR. In order to evaluate the whole European bastard, who, hoping for easy prey, climbed to kill Soviet and Russian people in our hope, I will give a table of that part of the foreign volunteers who guessed to surrender in time to us captive:

                        Germans - 2 389 560, Hungarians - 513 767, Romanians - 187 370, Austrians - 156 682, Czechs and Slovaks - 69 977, Poles - 60 280, Italians - 48 957, French - 23 136, Croats - 21 822, Moldovans - 14 129, the Dutch - 4 729, the Finns - 2 377, the Belgians - 2 010, the Luxembourgers - 1652, the Danes - 457, the Spaniards - 452, the Gypsies - 383, the Norwegians - 101, the Swedes - 72. President of the Academy of Military Sciences, Army General Mahmut Gareev gave such an assessment of the participation of several European countries in the fight against fascism: During the war years, all of Europe fought against us. Three hundred and fifty million people, regardless of whether they fought with weapons in their hands, or stood at the machine tool, producing weapons for the Wehrmacht, did one thing.

                        During the Second World War, 20 thousand members of the French Resistance died. And 200 thousand French fought against us. We also captured 60 thousand Poles. 2 million European volunteers fought for Hitler against the USSR.
                      3. JS20
                        JS20 15 January 2017 15: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        where is here about 17 year olds?

                        In September 1943 the war is not over.
                        Moreover, guess, the lack of nearly 300 thousand people filled with whom?
                      4. JS20
                        JS20 15 January 2017 15: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        The Soviet Union fought with almost all of Europe

                        And after all how impudently lying.
                        The population of Germany (with Austria and part of the Czech Republic), Italy, Finland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Croatia, this is far from all of Europe.
                        In addition, you forgot to add to the population of the USSR also the population of countries such as: Australia, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Britain, Venezuela, Haiti, Guatemala, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Egypt, India, Iraq, Iran, Canada, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Liberia, Lebanon, Mexico, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Salvador, Saudi Arabia, Syria, USA, Turkey (in the end), Uruguay, Philippines, Chile, Ecuador, Ethiopia, Union of South Africa. And this is far from a complete list of countries participating in the 2MB.
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        2 million European volunteers fought for Hitler against the USSR

                        The former Soviet people have been forgotten. Including Russian.
                    2. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 17: 28
                      +1
                      - hmmm .... you did not confuse the USSR with Germany, for an hour?

                      There is the Podolsky archive, there are cards on all the dead soldiers of the Red Army during the war. For 13 million people.
                      This is without the sailors of the militia, the persons called up repeatedly, the NKVD soldiers, the sailors ... all in all, more than 16-17 million who died in the armed forces. 10% of the population - marginal mobilization coefficient
                  2. 34 region
                    34 region 14 January 2017 21: 38
                    +4
                    19.04/41. Everything is clear with you. It was necessary in the XNUMXst to hand over everything and drink Bavarian beer with sausages and drive a Mercedes! So according to your logic?
                  3. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 04: 04
                    +3
                    JS20 you have a favorite phrase that you like to pass off as facts "it would" "another couple of years! laughing
                    1. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 15: 37
                      +2
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      S20 you have a favorite phrase that you like to pass off as facts "would be"

                      So what to do? The Bolsheviks in 1917-18. deprived Russia of a normal future. At least until the end of the century. Therefore, we can talk about it only in the subjunctive mood.
                      As well as about "socialism in the USSR" in the 21st century.
                2. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 01: 16
                  +1
                  after the Germans would have killed 5 million people, the Soviet Union would have died 50 million - that is, there would be no one to fight more, and in Germany there would still be 18 million men of draft age
                  So it was. The Germans fought hard with us, knocking out manpower and resources. They hoped for it. In addition, tens of millions of foreign workers worked in factories, freeing up human resources for the army.
                  So, the militia units of the “first wave” formed in Moscow did not go to the front, but to the Mozhaisk defense line, which was being built in the rear, where they were engaged in combat training and construction of fortifications.

                  That is, having crumbling fronts, the command was able to send militias to build fortifications. How do you imagine this? Read Zhukov. There he describes how he scoured the front lines in search of at least some troops. It was difficult to find an infantry battalion and a brigade of tanks, and that’s all. ... To the whole front. Zhukov did not write about your militias. And that's why. Because they could not be there. They all perished near Vyazma in early October
                  1. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 03: 21
                    +4
                    where and when did Zhukov write that the militias were gone? belay the link is possible, again we fantasize! lol
                    1. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 15: 40
                      +1
                      where and when did Zhukov write that the militia disappeared
                      Zhukov says that there were no troops on the Mozhaisk line. Almost none. In the memoirs. Read. They gathered there, cadets, all kinds of lost units, encircled.
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 24
                        +2
                        Gerard of Roussillon, you apparently lost the thread of discussion! belay you wrote about unaccounted for militias! which turns out to be taken into account! lol
            2. JS20
              JS20 14 January 2017 18: 56
              +3
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              USSR fought against virtually all of Europe

              All Europe:
              1. The Germans
              2. Italians
              3. Slovaks
              4. Finns
              5. Hungarians
              6. Croats
              7. Romanians.
              Somehow a bit too much for "all of Europe", isn't it?
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              The main losses are civilians!

              Who told you this? Did the Bolsheviks come up with it themselves?
              The Bolsheviks did not even know how many people they had drafted into the army. How do they know about losses?
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              According to data published by a group of researchers led by a consultant at the Military Memorial Center of the RF Armed Forces Grigory Krivosheev in 1993.

              Yeah. Take a look at more reliable sources.
              1. murriou
                murriou 14 January 2017 22: 13
                +6
                Quote: JS20
                Take a look at more reliable sources.

                There is no more reliable source for you than your personal delusional fantasies. By cr. least, you don’t bring anything at all to justify your nonsense laughing
                1. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 17: 33
                  +1
                  There is no more reliable source for you than your personal delusional fantasies.

                  I will explain to you, as a dark forehead, that there is a Podolsky archive. And everything is there. All data on the dead in the Red Army - more than 13 million.
                  1. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 31
                    +4
                    apparently, apart from you, nobody was allowed into the Podolsk archive, especially Krivosheeva! You’re ridiculous, moreover, you’ve been caught lying more than once like your friend JS20 lol
                    1. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 19: 37
                      +2
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      moreover, more than once caught in a lie like your friend JS20

                      Probably can give examples, where I was caught in a lie?
                      I'm hearing you.
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 07: 25
                        +2
                        JS20 but as many as you like, only now lies about the call of 17 year olds? lol
                      2. JS20
                        JS20 17 January 2017 23: 40
                        +1
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        But just now lies about the call of 17 year olds?

                        Murzik, if you served in the army, you would know that 17-year-olds were called up to the SA until the last day of the USSR. Strictly according to Soviet laws. And future officers got there by 17-year-olds, even mostly.
                        But you had nothing to do with the army. And if they did, then the most indirect. Therefore, write all nonsense.
                    2. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 15: 00
                      +1
                      apparently, apart from you, nobody was allowed into the Podolsk archive, especially Krivosheeva! You’re ridiculous, moreover, you’ve been caught lying more than once like your friend JS2

                      You are still a gray man. I give you a task. Search the Internet. Materials about the victims from the Podolsk archive are on the network. Your Krivosheev is just a loafer. Why should he go through the archives, he will simply rewrite what is needed from the newspaper Pravda - and all matters.
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 07: 26
                        +2
                        Gerard of Roussillon, well, apart from verbal diarrhea, I did not expect anything from you! Facts in the studio? lol
                    3. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 17 January 2017 20: 53
                      +1
                      apparently, apart from you, no one was allowed into the Podolsk archive, especially Krivosheeva!

                      This suggests that your Krivosheev is just a rogue. Your "historians" do not go through the archives, they are not comme il faut
              2. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 03: 34
                +4
                JS20 but I will use any reason to once again mention: in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945, the USSR, with an initial strength of 190 million people, did not fight with 80 million of the then Germans. The Soviet Union fought practically with the whole of Europe, the number of which (with the exception of England allied to us and partisan Serbia that did not surrender to the Germans) was about 400 million people.
                During the Great Patriotic War, overcoats in the USSR were put on by 34 thousand people, i.e. 476,7% of the population. And Germany mobilized as much as 17,8% of the population into its armed forces. It would seem that the Germans in their military efforts strained more than the USSR. In order to evaluate the whole European bastard, who, hoping for easy prey, climbed to kill Soviet and Russian people in our hope, I will give a table of that part of the foreign volunteers who guessed to surrender in time to us captive:
                Germans - 2 389 560, Hungarians - 513 767, Romanians - 187 370, Austrians - 156 682, Czechs and Slovaks - 69 977, Poles - 60 280, Italians - 48 957, French - 23 136, Croats - 21 822, Moldovans - 14 129, the Dutch - 4 729, the Finns - 2 377, the Belgians - 2 010, the Luxembourgers - 1652, the Danes - 457, the Spaniards - 452, the Gypsies - 383, the Norwegians - 101, the Swedes - 72. President of the Academy of Military Sciences, Army General Mahmut Gareev gave such an assessment of the participation of several European countries in the fight against fascism: During the war years, all of Europe fought against us. Three hundred and fifty million people, regardless of whether they fought with weapons in their hands, or stood at the machine tool, producing weapons for the Wehrmacht, did one thing.
                During the Second World War, 20 thousand members of the French Resistance died. And 200 thousand French fought against us. We also captured 60 thousand Poles. 2 million European volunteers fought for Hitler against the USSR.
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 15: 43
                  +2
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  The Soviet Union fought with almost all of Europe

                  And you're lying again. I am pointing you to this for the 100th time. Germany fought against the USSR (with Austria and part of the Czech Republic), Italy, Finland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Croatia.
                  In addition, given the allies of Germany, you do not take into account the allies of the Anglo-Saxons, one of whom was the USSR. Those. distort And these are: Australia, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Britain, Venezuela, Haiti, Guatemala, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Egypt, India, Iraq, Iran, Canada, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Liberia, Lebanon, Mexico, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, El Salvador, Saudi Arabia, Syria, USA, Turkey (in the end), Uruguay, Philippines, Chile, Ecuador, Ethiopia, South African Union.
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  President of the Academy of Military Sciences, Army General Mahmut Gareev gave such an assessment

                  Who is interested in?
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  regardless of whether they fought with weapons in their hands, or stood at the machine tool, producing weapons for the Wehrmacht, they did one thing.

                  Yeah. So those who stood at the machine tool and made weapons for the Red Army, they did not do the common thing. Enchanting.
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  2 million European volunteers fought for Hitler against the USSR.

                  As well as immigrants from the USSR, including and Russians.
                  1. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 26
                    +2
                    JS20 you yourself understood what you wrote? lol
              3. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 20
                +5
                It seems that the losses of Germany and its allies in both world wars, including and broken down by the main fronts - Western and Eastern. But the losses do not always reflect the true picture of the intensity of the fighting, the tension of the nation in one direction or another, and most importantly, the dangers and “values” of the opponents. For example, a significant portion of the prisoners captured by the Western Allies in April-May 1945 represented our legitimate prey.
                Therefore, I decided to figure out - and what forces was Germany (and its allies) forced to exert in the West and East during these wars? World War II:

                Eastern front:

                7500 German division months and 1000 division months of the allies of Germany (Finland, Romania, Italy, Hungary, etc., except the first all with a reduction factor of 1/2), TOTAL: 8500 division months against Russia

                Western Front (including Norway-1940, Greece and Crete-1941, East and North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the Western Front - the first and second):

                1350 German division months (including 1150 until June 1941) and 150 Italian division months (with a coefficient of 1/2), TOTAL: 1500 division months against the West (including 1250 until June 1941 )

                TOTAL Germany and its allies set up 10000 division months (8750 - after June 1941), incl. 85% - against Russia. Separately in Germany - only 8850 German division months (8650 after June 1941), including almost 85% against Russia.

                Thus, in 1941-45, Russia carried out the overwhelming part of the load on the land front, by an ORDER exceeding its relative load in 1914-17 ...

                Even if you add the Pacific War, it turns out that the main part of the Japanese army was involved in China (including the Kwantung Army), a relatively small part of the ground forces opposed the West, mainly in transient operations (except Burma) and hardly the general the number of Japanese division months set against the West can be estimated by many more than 500 ...

                In the 2nd MV, aviation began to play a significantly greater role, it is obvious that its ratio along the fronts will be significantly different - but this is a separate topic (especially with regard to anti-aircraft artillery). At the same time, the forces of the surface fleet of Germany, in the 1st MV, were involved almost exclusively against the West (except for episodic operations in the Baltic in 1915 and 1917, as well as the breakthrough of "Goeben" into the Black Sea, whose influence goes beyond the mechanical calculation correlation of forces), in the 2nd MV they were forced to act (including simply by the presence) with the main forces against the Northern convoys and the coastal flanks of Russian troops in the Baltic. There was not much difference in the distribution of submarine forces - again "Battle for the Atlantic", with the exception of the factor of the Northern convoys.



                What is the conclusion? But it is very simple - the supposedly rapidly developing and advanced Russian empire was not able to compete on an equal footing with Germany, while Russia, in the form of the USSR, passed the test, defeated it (albeit with huge losses - human and material), and with this the distribution of German forces (we are talking here exclusively about ground operations!), which can be said of the Russian-German war of 1941-45 (WWII) with insignificant influence on operations on other fronts.
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 20: 06
                  +2
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  What is the conclusion? But it is very simple - the supposedly rapidly developing and advanced Russian empire was not able to compete on equal terms with Germany, while Russia, in the form of the USSR, passed the test, defeated it (albeit with huge losses - human and material)

                  You are delusional, Murzik. "Own business" in that war in the USSR went bankrupt on 24.09.1941. On the 95th day of the war. Here is such a "survived, won".
                  After that, the USSR signed the Atlantic Charter and a completely different story began.
                  1. murriou
                    murriou 16 January 2017 00: 19
                    +3
                    Quote: JS20
                    After that, the USSR signed the Atlantic Charter and a completely different story began.

                    Oh, what a discovery! And what has changed? laughing
                    1. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 17 January 2017 19: 36
                      +1
                      murriou,
                      murriou,
                      +1 You cannot dispute my assessment of the state of affairs in 1937.

                      We agreed to consider cases in the 37th year
                      Why not in the 27th? You refuse to admit that the so-called industrialization was carried out at the expense of the people, methods that led to hunger in part of the territory, a critical drop in living standards
                      In general, he overtook tsarist Russia in all respects already VERY noticeably.
                      .
                      Tsarist Russia did not exist at that time. How you compare is incomprehensible. Whom did you overtake? The one who was not
                      Who paid for it, I realized. People, often at the cost of life, their own and loved ones
                      How much was this banquet? Several million lives. Question to you. Who were you going to fight with? France and England were stifled so that they didn’t recover, and the 40th, the United States did not have an army, Germany did not have an army and was crushed by reparations .....
                      Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                      For example, were shovels made?
                      Are there doubts? laughing
                      There is
                      The industrial potential of the USSR in the 20th made up 20% of the year of the 17th
                      1. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 17 January 2017 19: 53
                        +4
                        Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                        The industrial potential of the USSR in the 20th made up 20% of the year of the 17th

                        - Where are the firewood from?
                        - A reference would be ... preferably not to the newspaper. I’m lying and things like that ...
                      2. murriou
                        murriou 17 January 2017 23: 28
                        +2
                        Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                        We agreed to consider cases in the 37th year

                        Where did we agree? You jumped on dates like a flea, and everywhere you carried some immediately refuted nonsense.

                        Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                        You refuse to admit

                        Yes. Why would I admit any nonsense simply because it hit you in the head? laughing

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        the so-called industrialization

                        * contemplating with interest the grave, but fruitless attempts of the interlocutor, at least something, at least somehow, but be sure to get some fun *
                        It was Stolypin's "so-called" industrialization, which ended in nothing, and Soviet industrialization was very weighty, rough, visible.

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        was carried out at the expense of the people, methods leading to hunger in part of the territory, a critical drop in living standards

                        Oh, what do you compare the standard of living with when discussing its decline? Figures and data sources possible? lol

                        It’s nothing that in tsarist Russia hunger was a regular occurrence, peasant malnutrition was a habitual condition, the withdrawal of all funds from the majority of the population was carried out constantly, and at the same time, tasks of state significance of these funds were solved very badly, and the treasury flowed into the personal pockets of high-ranking thieves ?

                        Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                        France and England were stifled so that they didn’t recover, and the 40th

                        You * very original presentations * about not only our history, as I see laughing laughing laughing

                        Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                        The industrial potential of the USSR in the 20th made up 20% of the year of the 17th

                        I join the question of your sources "insights" laughing

                        And by the way, what does the 20th year have to do with it, if you started your message with a unilateral statement, as if we had agreed to discuss the year 1937? lol
                2. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 15: 35
                  +1
                  What is the conclusion? But it is very simple - the supposedly rapidly developing and advanced Russian Empire was not able to compete on equal terms with Germany, while Russia, in the form of the USSR, passed the test like that,

                  Why did you get this? The revolution firstly destroyed the existing industrial potential, casting the country in development for 20 years.
                  Secondly, crossed out at least a ten-year period of economic development from 17 to 27 years.
                  Third, the Bolsheviks tore the France-Russia link, making it possible for Germany to wage war with one enemy. Without a "war on two fronts". Russia with France, and even more so with England, were in any case much stronger than Germany
                  In the fourth, they destroyed the Russian army with its traditions and the officer corps, creating something monstrous and uncontrollable under the name of the Red Army. Which in the 41st did not want to fight.

                  And here comes the loss. Under 30 million. In fact, the appeals of 20-23 years were completely beaten out.
                  The Bolsheviks plagued with war. They started mediocre, stupidly continued, plugging their doorposts with thousands of soldiers' lives
                  1. murriou
                    murriou 16 January 2017 17: 30
                    +6
                    0. "Gerard", you are persistently trying to "ignore" the numerous facts proving the incomparable weakness of Tsarist Russia in comparison with the Kaiser's Germany.
                    Transfer the arrows to the accusations of the USSR with your usual nonsense and hope that no one will notice the fraud?

                    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                    Why did you get this? The revolution firstly destroyed the existing industrial potential, casting the country in development for 20 years.

                    Lying.
                    1. 20 years after the revolution, ie in 1937, the industry of the USSR surpassed the industry of tsarist Russia in terms of technology by at least a generation, in terms of main production by 30-40 times.

                    2. During the period of the Civil War and devastation, industrial production fell sharply - but the industrial capacities basically remained, and were successfully returned to business by the Bolsheviks.

                    3. This period of decline was no more than 5 years, instead of 20, about which they like to lie to you.
                    In 1924, the Bolsheviks had already begun mass production of trucks, which in tsarist Russia in its entire history had not been done.

                    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                    Third, the Bolsheviks tore up a bunch of France-Russia

                    4. And they stopped using the Russians as cannon fodder for Anglo-French interests. YES. It was a perfectly right and good deed.

                    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                    Russia with France, and even more so with England, were in any case much stronger than Germany

                    5. Tell this to Laval and Chamberlain, who fed Hitler against the USSR.

                    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                    In the fourth, they destroyed the Russian army with its traditions and the officer corps

                    6. The "glorious" traditions of the Russian army included the shamefully lost RYaV, and the equally shameful beginning of WWI in the East Prussian operation.
                    7. The "glorious" traditions of the Russian officer corps included absolutely insolent LIE in the reports. Remember Rudnev's report about the Varyag battle and compare it with reality. Remember the many other epic examples of epic lies - the report of Eberhard, Kolchak and many other such fantastic works are well read now, when the real picture is well known and lends itself to cross-checking from a variety of sources.

                    So there was nothing to lose there.

                    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                    creating something monstrous and uncontrollable under the name of the Red Army. Which in the 41st did not want to fight.

                    It was the Red Army that was the first in the world to provide significant resistance to Hitler. It turned out to be much more successful than the French and British, whose army no Bolsheviks destroyed laughing

                    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                    And here comes the loss. Under 30 million.

                    Sure sure. Nothing so that real military losses were more than 3 times less than what are you lying here? And civilian casualties are a completely separate article.

                    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                    The Bolsheviks plagued with war. They started mediocre, stupidly continued, plugging their doorposts with thousands of soldiers' lives

                    Sure sure. And the most terrible, they WIN both the Germans and the Japanese. laughing

                    Tsarist Russia, who lost about 100 thousand Russian lives and dozens of warships in the REV, captured about 80 thousand of its soldiers and officers, and received only shame, a lost war, great property, territorial and reputation losses resulting from the war.

                    Whether it’s the case, the world record of the same Russia among all the WWI participating states in the number of prisoners and deserters, with the general results of the war very disappointing for it.
                    1. Gerard Roussillon
                      Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 19: 24
                      +1
                      1. 20 years after the revolution, ie in 1937, the industry of the USSR surpassed the industry of tsarist Russia in terms of technology by at least a generation, in terms of main production by 30-40 times.

                      It is interesting how things were 10 years after the revolution. For example, were shovels made?
                      - but the industrial capacities basically remained, and were successfully returned to business by the Bolsheviks.

                      But the tanks Freedom Fighter Comrade Lenin made literally on their knees and made as many as 10 with your "remaining capacity", NATI cars also barely collected several dozen. And there was no one to work. They all fled. Some walls remained
                      In 1924, the Bolsheviks had already begun mass production of trucks, which in tsarist Russia throughout its history was not done.
                      What a miracle this is. Let me guess.
                      American Hercules in Yaroslavl, or 100, or 200 pieces screwed from American kits
                      It’s nothing that there really were more than 3 times less military losses than you are lying here
                      This is the third time I explain to you that everything is in the Podolsk archive. 13 million only the Red Army
                      Now about civilians. Who is more dying at the front? Guys. And in the rear? In the rear - women. Need to explain why? So in the 59th there was a census where the ratio of men to women was like 2 to 3. The consequences of the war. This suggests that there were more military losses than civilian casualties.

                      . And they stopped using the Russians as cannon fodder for Anglo-French interests.

                      The losses of France and the losses of Russia were of the same order, unlike the losses of the USSR, that’s where the cannon fodder was
                      6. The "glorious" traditions of the Russian army included the shamefully lost RYAV, and the equally shameful beginning of WWI
                      WWII but began with dignity - 3 million prisoners
                      At first, party leaders were draped at emki, then the colonels and generals then, with long, dusty columns, captured ordinary soldiers.
                      Is it a matter of the world record of the same Russia among all the states participating in the WWI in the number of prisoners and deserters,

                      Well, but they did not fight against their own. More than a million Soviet citizens, as they say with weapons in their hands. So collective farms loved
                      It was the Red Army that was the first in the world to provide significant resistance to Hitler.

                      We ran to Moscow. The rulers evacuated to Kuibyshev, which means they were going to flee further
                      1. murriou
                        murriou 16 January 2017 23: 19
                        +4
                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        1. 20 years after the revolution, ie in 1937, the industry of the USSR surpassed the industry of tsarist Russia in terms of technology by at least a generation, in terms of main production by 30-40 times.

                        It is interesting how things were 10 years after the revolution.

                        Those.
                        +1 You cannot dispute my assessment of the state of affairs in 1937.
                        +2. You can’t dispute that LIED with your statement about 20 years of backlog.
                        +3. They asked - I answer:
                        In 1927, the First Five-Year Plan had just begun.
                        in 1927, the USSR had already begun = serial = production of its tanks and armored vehicles.
                        FINISHED the production of I-1, I-2, I-2bis fighters in favor of starting the production of I-3 and approaches to the creation of I-4, I-5.

                        He began the large-scale production of his own light machine gun DP - for tsarist Russia, all these tasks were impossible. Sikorsky’s fighters were, as it were, created, but each time they were put into serial production, there were considerable problems.

                        In the same year, the USSR began work on the inventory and modernization of weapons left over from the WWII.
                        In general, he overtook tsarist Russia in all respects already VERY noticeably.

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        For example, were shovels made?

                        Are there doubts? laughing
                      2. murriou
                        murriou 17 January 2017 00: 10
                        +2
                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        but the industrial capacities basically remained, and were successfully returned to business by the Bolsheviks.

                        But the tanks Freedom fighter comrade Lenin literally made on his knees and made as many as 10 pieces with your "remaining capacity"

                        Thank you for the reminder of another achievement in which the Bolsheviks STRONGLY surpassed Tsarist Russia already in 1920. laughing
                        They made them one and a half times more, by the way - 15 copies.

                        For comparison, Porokhovshchikov's "All-terrain vehicle" and Lebedenko's "tsar-tank" could not even be brought to one combat-ready copy in a couple of years of tsarist tank building.

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        NATI cars also barely barely collected a few dozen.

                        +1 NATI / US, for a minute so, not a car factory, but an automotive institute. His production is small, experienced.

                        +2. Nevertheless, its production in terms of effectiveness was comparable to the largest car factory in Tsarist Russia.
                        That is, in this pilot production at the institute, "barely collected" is comparable to how much tsarist Russia did in a year during its heyday laughing

                        +3. At about the same time, in 1924 they began preparations for the mass production of AMO-F-15, in the first 9 months of production 113 units were released, immediately blocking the annual production of the tsar Russo-Balt, in 1926 more than 300 copies were produced there.

                        So your amusing attempts to belittle the achievements of the USSR give exactly the opposite result laughing

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        And there was no one to work. Everyone escaped. Some walls remained

                        And these "walls alone" quickly blocked the achievements of tsarist Russia in its highest prosperity, yeah, yeah lol laughing

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        In 1924, the Bolsheviks had already begun mass production of trucks, which in tsarist Russia throughout its history was not done.
                        What a miracle this is. Let me guess.

                        Do not guess. It was a heavily modified Italian Fiat-15ter model of 1915. But in tsarist Russia it was twisted from completely ready-made sets imported from Italy, and in the USSR they were made entirely from Soviet materials - that is, tsarist Russia was also surpassed here already 7 years after the revolution.

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        American Hercules in Yaroslavl, or 100, or 200 pieces screwed from American kits

                        And here it is no worse than in tsarist Russia, even better.
                        And after the commissioning of the ZIS and GAZ, the USSR began to make cars and engines for them in dozens on a DAY - like Tsarist Russia for a year, the production of tractors at STZ and ChTZ began in the same quantities. Nothing like tsarist Russia even dreamed of.
                      3. murriou
                        murriou 17 January 2017 00: 10
                        +4
                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        This suggests that there were more military losses than civilian casualties.

                        This suggests that, as usual, you are lying without blushing.

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        The losses of France and the losses of Russia were of the same order

                        Aha-aha, this is with incomparably more intensive databases on the Western Front compared to the Eastern. laughing
                        At the same time, the French died for France, and the Russians also for France lol
                        * we will skip the free retelling of the writings of Solzhenitsyn for obvious idiocy *

                        Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                        It was the Red Army that was the first in the world to provide significant resistance to Hitler.
                        We ran to Moscow. The rulers evacuated to Kuibyshev, which means they were going to flee further

                        I don’t see the point of discussing your fantasies.
                        But again, I remind you: the great power of France with its allies, having a significant numerical advantage over Hitler in all respects except for aviation, having a previously fully mobilized army, etc., completely merged in a month in 1940 - and bargained for a couple of weeks for terms of surrender laughing
                        Feel the difference.
                  2. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 12: 21
                    +3
                    Gerard Rusillonsky you wrote "The Bolsheviks got into a big mess with the war. They started mediocrely, stupidly continued, plugging their shoals with thousands of soldiers' lives" you probably do not know that Germany with its Satilites attacked the USSR and not the reverse!
            3. JS20
              JS20 15 January 2017 15: 16
              +2
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              The casualties of the USSR are 6,8 million soldiers killed, 4,4 million captured and missing.

              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              Germany’s casualties - 4,046 million soldiers who died, died from wounds, and went missing (including 442,1 thousand prisoners of war)

              Interesting "mathematics" you have.
              So, you consider the dead Germans in captivity. But there were no Soviet soldiers killed in captivity.
              Meanwhile, according to German data, by May 1, 1944, 3222 thousand people had died in camps and transit points and were executed. But there was still a year of war and 1053 thousand Soviet troops in their camps.
              Those. at least 3222 thousand people you have already distorted. And even according to your sources, the losses of the Red Army in no less than 10 million people.
              And also, where do you record those Soviet prisoners of war who entered the service in German formations. There were a lot of them.
              And the Soviet servicemen who died of their wounds, where are they? Lost? Another 3 million will probably come running, no less. So much for the "comparable losses". But the Germans fought on 2 fronts.
              1. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 36
                +6
                my friend JS20 that you, I distorted belay I, unlike you, do not quote the facts as you like to write "would"! I rely on the facts of a specific study by Krivosheev! I repeat once again they are the most authoritative! lol
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 23: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  I rely on facts

                  You get out and bustle.
                  Is there anything to write about the case?
                  1. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 07: 38
                    +3
                    JS20 that you fidget on the pope! You’re talking nonsense! 3222 thousand people died in the camps, since there are so many civilians sent to the camps among them! lol
        2. JS20
          JS20 14 January 2017 18: 46
          +2
          Quote: cap
          And as a result

          This is not a result. This is a concert.
          The results were different.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 14 January 2017 18: 49
            +7
            Quote: JS20
            This is not a result. This is a concert

            - The Victory Parade is a "concert" ?!
            - sorry, the "cons" canceled. For this one phase, you, dear, would already walk in turtles ... negative
            1. murriou
              murriou 14 January 2017 22: 17
              +3
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              For this one phrase, dear, you’d already go to turtles ..

              This monster is not the first nickname on this forum to use. Identified immediately, by his unique obsessions, under any nickname laughing

              While there were minuses, it did not come out of the minuses. Now there are no minuses, it grazes in zeros lol sometimes those who partly share his crazy ideas with him throw him on poverty and wretchedness. crying
              1. Cat man null
                Cat man null 14 January 2017 22: 32
                +4
                Quote: murriou
                This monster is not the first nickname on this forum to use

                - I sensed it ... let's say repeat

                Quote: murriou
                While there were minuses, it did not come out of the minuses. Now there are no minuses, it grazes in zeros

                - I'm waiting for it to begin to be rude
                - didn’t anyone cancel the ban?
                - but in general - not to stop feeding him, of course. According to the classic recipe: "... and he will die by himself" laughing
                1. murriou
                  murriou 14 January 2017 23: 09
                  +4
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  According to the classic recipe: "... and he will die by himself"

                  In excess, of course, it is poorly tolerated. But sometimes such a healthy laugh sometimes delivers ... laughing
            2. JS20
              JS20 15 January 2017 00: 53
              +1
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              The Victory Parade is a "concert" ?!

              What else? Like any other parade.
              Or is this a victory? Fought for the parade?
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              For this one phase, you would, dear, be walking in turtles ...

              I was really scared.
    3. teder
      teder 14 January 2017 10: 44
      +7
      Quote: cap
      What you will not refuse Vladimir Lenin (Ulyanov) he knew how to quickly "change shoes" as it is fashionable to say now

      Well, yes.
      He promised the Factory - the workers, the Earth - the peasants.
      The result was collective farms and a ban on changing jobs in industry.
      1. cap
        cap 14 January 2017 11: 34
        +6
        Quote: teder
        He promised the Factory - the workers, the Earth - the peasants.
        The result was collective farms and a ban on changing jobs in industry.


        And now? I want to buy a plant, I have the right, but there is no possibility. Leninists dismantled everything.
        Where is my voucher? Oh yes, I’m holding it in a frame. Thank you Chubais, he’s our new Lenin.
        1. Gerard Roussillon
          Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 12: 55
          +5
          I want to buy a plant, there is a right but no opportunity

          But you can engage in any form of activity depending on your abilities and capabilities.
          1. cap
            cap 14 January 2017 13: 22
            +4
            Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
            I want to buy a plant, there is a right but no opportunity

            But you can engage in any form of activity depending on your abilities and capabilities.


            And in monetary terms, what will this result in, my desire?
            1. Gerard Roussillon
              Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 13: 42
              +2
              And in monetary terms, what it will pour out, my desire

              Owning factories by all members of society is contrary to common sense. Not everyone can own factories and ride Rolls Royces. But even under Stalin you could hardly have become a member of the Central Committee. You must admit that all members of Soviet society, no matter how they wanted, could not sit on the podium. So let's drink so that our desires coincide with our capabilities. (a joke by the way from your favorite era)
              1. cap
                cap 14 January 2017 13: 49
                +5
                Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                Owning factories by all members of society is contrary to common sense.


                For all the time of Soviet power it was.
                Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                You must admit that all members of Soviet society, no matter how they wanted, could not sit on the podium. So let's drink so that our desires coincide with our capabilities.


                I don’t hesitate to drink. And about the presence in the Central Committee, he was drinking at the same table. My father, his kingdom of heaven, was part of the revision commission, the republican Central Committee. hi
                1. Raf01
                  Raf01 14 January 2017 14: 30
                  +2
                  Quote: cap
                  For all the time of Soviet power it was.

                  Unfortunately this is utopia. Human psychology has not changed for many thousands of years. A suitable psychology for ants - they live that way.
                2. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 16: 42
                  +2
                  For all the time of Soviet power it was ..

                  And did you have a factory? Could you dispose of it at your discretion?
                3. JS20
                  JS20 14 January 2017 19: 08
                  +2
                  Quote: cap
                  For all the time of Soviet power it was.

                  Enchanting nonsense. You didn’t even own the kennel in which you lived. Because you shot it.
                4. Raf01
                  Raf01 14 January 2017 23: 29
                  +1
                  Quote: cap
                  My father, the kingdom of heaven to him, was a member of the Revision Commission of the Republican Central Committee.

                  It was necessary to begin with this.
              2. 34 region
                34 region 14 January 2017 15: 12
                +5
                13.42. Gerard! Why is contrary to common sense? There are joint stock companies. There were collective farms (collective farms). And the collective farm was essentially an agricultural joint-stock company with shares of collective farm members. The chairman was elected. The collective farm is a relic of the past from the ideas of Stalin? What about Jewish kibbutz collective farms? It seems to the Jews as far back as 1909 that they appeared and have survived to this day. Inequality then and now is incomparable.
                1. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 16: 45
                  +2
                  And the collective farm was essentially an agricultural joint-stock company with shares of collective farm members.

                  The collective farm resembled Latifundia. The collective farmer did not dispose of the shares, could not buy, sell, bequeath, could not quit and leave for the city, the workday after the war was estimated at 27 kopecks or a pound of potato
                2. JS20
                  JS20 14 January 2017 19: 10
                  +2
                  Quote: Region 34
                  There are joint stock companies. There were collective farms (collective farms)

                  What did the collective farm have to do with the joint-stock company? Unless on paper.
                  Quote: Region 34
                  What about Jewish kibbutz collective farms?

                  No way. Kibbutzim have no relation whatsoever to collective farms.
                3. teder
                  teder 14 January 2017 19: 32
                  +1
                  Quote: Region 34
                  . And the collective farm was essentially an agricultural joint-stock company with shares of collective farm members

                  Did you come up with it now?
                  1. 34 region
                    34 region 15 January 2017 03: 09
                    +2
                    19.32. This is your trinity fantasizing here.
            2. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 14 January 2017 13: 46
              0
              Quit and get another job for free. Education on the Internet is cheap, only the bill for electricity and the Internet.
              1. cap
                cap 14 January 2017 14: 41
                +1
                Quote: Raf01
                Quote: cap
                For all the time of Soviet power it was.

                Unfortunately this is utopia. Human psychology has not changed for many thousands of years. A suitable psychology for ants - they live that way.

                Quote: BlackMokona
                Quit and get another job for free. Education on the Internet is cheap, only the bill for electricity and the Internet.


                Well, firstly, not an ant, but studying with three diplomas (one red) it’s too late. 62 years have gone. This is a flag in your hands, and more dollars.
                1. Blackmokona
                  Blackmokona 14 January 2017 14: 51
                  +1
                  So what are the problems with three diplomas to change jobs?
                  1. cap
                    cap 14 January 2017 15: 00
                    +3
                    Quote: BlackMokona
                    So what are the problems with three diplomas to change jobs?


                    You probably missed 62 years. Service in the army, work in civilian life.
                    And when to live? More precisely, I have already lived my life, now the main task is to look at my grandchildren. It is very interesting to watch how they become Humans. And I really want them to become such. hi
                    1. Blackmokona
                      Blackmokona 14 January 2017 15: 11
                      +2
                      Ie 62 years you did not live? They walked like zombies, didn’t they meet interesting people, there were no interesting facts and conversations? There has never been an interesting puzzle? Etc?
                      1. cap
                        cap 14 January 2017 15: 46
                        +3
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        Ie 62 years you did not live? They walked like zombies, didn’t they meet interesting people, there were no interesting facts and conversations? There has never been an interesting puzzle? Etc?


                        It’s not even funny to read you laughing You provoke me to "split", it will not work. Two counterintelligence services tried. When there were "problems" It did not work laughing Color Nick to not comment in the future. Yes! and correct the country, let's say Romania. hi
                    2. JS20
                      JS20 14 January 2017 19: 15
                      +1
                      Quote: cap
                      You probably missed 62 years.

                      Quote: cap
                      And when to live?

                      Nowhere in Europe have they retired before the age of 65. Somehow you are overly preferential to yourself.
                  2. Uncle Murzik
                    Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 15: 30
                    +4
                    BlackMokona, go to the village and find a job there, with at least five diplomas! lol
                    1. Blackmokona
                      Blackmokona 14 January 2017 15: 32
                      +2
                      It is possible to go into the taiga without people, not to find work there, and to strangle oneself. And you can go where the work is. Literate professionals are in short supply.
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 16: 17
                        +4
                        BlackMokona in Russia 23mln have incomes below the subsistence level! Apparently it’s not very good at work! lol
                      2. JS20
                        JS20 14 January 2017 19: 18
                        +1
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        23 million in Russia have incomes below the subsistence level! Apparently not quite well with work!

                        Apparently it is necessary to bring down where incomes are ABOVE the living wage. And it’s not bad with work.
                        The bone of the Runet is sometimes striking. He does not need the "Iron Curtain" either; he will arrange it for himself.
                    2. JS20
                      JS20 14 January 2017 19: 16
                      +2
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      BlackMokona, go to the village and find a job there, with at least five diplomas!

                      And what, besides the village, nothing else comes to mind?
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 07: 43
                        +2
                        JS20 you probably don’t know that in Russia there are 133 thousand villages and villages where people live! lol
              2. 34 region
                34 region 14 January 2017 15: 14
                +2
                13.46. Black! Computer diploma?
                1. Blackmokona
                  Blackmokona 14 January 2017 15: 25
                  +1
                  Do you study only for paper or for knowledge? And now you can easily buy a piece of paper or pass it by externally. Plus, many employers forget about paperwork, especially in connection with the abundance of graduate students who can’t connect two words.
              3. JS20
                JS20 14 January 2017 19: 12
                +3
                Quote: BlackMokona
                to fret and get another job for free. Education on the Internet is cheap, only the bill for electricity and the Internet.

                And you can break abroad. And cut loot there, not a spear.
                True, you need to know the language. At least one. Foreign.
              4. murriou
                murriou 14 January 2017 22: 19
                +4
                Quote: BlackMokona
                Education on the Internet is cheap

                And the price of such "education" is even less than the cost of it laughing
                1. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 08: 03
                  +1
                  And the price of such "education" is even less than the cost of it
                  Lenin was educated as an "external student", that is, a correspondence student. I poured a dozen books and went to take exams. It is not necessary to remind correspondence students what kind of specialists they were in the USSR.
                  1. murriou
                    murriou 15 January 2017 08: 05
                    +1
                    Extramural correspondence discord. Mendeleev by education is generally a teacher, not a chemist laughing
            3. JS20
              JS20 14 January 2017 19: 06
              +2
              Quote: cap
              And in monetary terms, what will this result in, my desire?

              No way.
              Because it is your desire. You are not capable of business. There’s a voucher hanging at your house in a frame.
              Therefore, focus on wage labor.
      2. 34 region
        34 region 14 January 2017 15: 04
        +2
        10.44. Tader! Today you have the opportunity to change jobs anywhere in the country and the world. Many today go on shift. Today we have a country of shift workers. This is normal? So it should be?
        1. cap
          cap 14 January 2017 15: 10
          0
          Quote: 34 region
          10.44. Tader! Today you have the opportunity to change jobs anywhere in the country and the world. Many today go on shift. Today we have a country of shift workers. This is normal? So it should be?

          The shift certainly has a place to be. Like in the Far East. Living constantly is just stress, especially in the northern part
        2. JS20
          JS20 14 January 2017 19: 20
          +1
          Quote: Region 34
          Today we have a country of shift workers. This is normal? So it should be?

          It depends on where the watch is. Somewhere it's good. It was only during the Soviet Union that people stained permanent residence in the permafrost zone, houses were built there. What was actually extremely unhealthy.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 14 January 2017 20: 12
            +4
            Quote: JS20
            Permanent residence in the permafrost zone ... actually extremely harmful to health

            - why is it "harmful to health"?
            - example: the city of Norilsk (I was there, and you?), the Arctic, permafrost - in stock
            - Nothing, people lived normally there. There are, of course, some specifics. recourse
        3. teder
          teder 14 January 2017 19: 35
          +1
          Quote: 34 region
          10.44. Tader! Today you have the opportunity to change jobs anywhere in the country and the world. Many today go on shift. Today we have a country of shift workers. This is normal? So it should be?

          And why did you decide that I am unemployed? belay
          As for the shift method of work - washing is not life.
          And as for the situation with work now, you perfectly know that finding a job (decent) if you are over 45 is practically unrealistic.
        4. Gerard Roussillon
          Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 01: 35
          +1
          . Today we have a country of shift workers. This is normal? So it should be?

          Fine. In the States, a person moves from New York to San Francisco if he finds a normal job.
          In Germany, fly from Berlin to Frankfurt to work and back. Airplanes fly with the frequency of electric trains. So the whole world lives
      3. Uncle Murzik
        Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 16: 20
        +5
        teder and who owned factories and collective farms in the USSR? winked there was free education and medicine, free housing with a penny, trips!
        1. JS20
          JS20 14 January 2017 19: 22
          +2
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          and who owned factories and collective farms in the USSR?

          Bonzam of the Bolsheviks, and then the bonzam of the Communists.
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          there was free education and medicine, free housing with a penny, trips!

          Was worn out with all the "free" for the poor population of the USSR.
          Ask yourself the question, why was the population so poor in the USSR with the general "free"?
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 14 January 2017 19: 52
            +6
            Quote: JS20
            why ... in the USSR the population was so poor?

            - But was it a beggar?
            - and even "such a beggar"?
            - and what is it?

            Let me remind you: a black loaf under the Union cost 18 kopecks. Now she, a little worse quality, costs 26 rubles.

            You can recalculate the salary of the then cleaner (60 rubles, EMNIP), "for bread", in "today's".

            We’ll get 8700 rubles, sort of a bit, but:

            + free kindergarten, school, institute (if any) for children
            + free medicine (quite at the level, by the way ... no dirt, I had to use it)
            + purely symbolic rent
            + ...

            Beggars, speak? Phe negative
            1. teder
              teder 14 January 2017 20: 01
              +2
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              Let me remind you: a black loaf under the Union cost 18 kopecks. Now she, a little worse quality, costs 26 rubles.
              You can recalculate the salary of the then cleaner (60 rubles, EMNIP), "for bread", in "senodnyashnyaya". We get 10000 rubles.

              This is not correct, bread was sold far below cost.
              Count the price for a car, clothes, boots (preferably women’s and not Red October) laughing
              TV, refrigerator, vacuum cleaner, etc. etc.
              Invalid comparison

              Quote: Cat Man Null
              + free kindergarten, school, institute (if any) for children
              + free medicine (quite at the level, by the way ... no dirt, I had to use it)
              + purely symbolic rent

              Empty pokey, general deficit and much more.
              I lived the same time.
              There were pluses, there were also minuses. You can not compare unequivocally.
              But the fact remains - the system was not viable and therefore collapsed.
              By the way, not only in the USSR, pay attention in any country where they tried to build Leninist-style socialism — either everything has already collapsed or is taking steady steps in that direction.
              In the case of Leninist socialism - a negative result is not a conversation about the statistical error in the assessment - this is a 100% negative result.
              1. Cat man null
                Cat man null 14 January 2017 21: 31
                +6
                I mock a little:

                Quote: teder
                This is not correct, the bread was sold much lower than the cost

                - but it was much better than the current
                - so the comparison ... is almost correct, I would say
                - unlike a car, TV and other things you have listed - it belonged to "luxury goods" and was sold at greatly inflated prices

                Quote: teder
                I lived the same time

                - what a fall! And neither do I, believe it wassat

                Quote: teder
                But the fact remains - the system was not viable and therefore collapsed

                - the system was purposefully felled. Both outside and inside
                - if you know an example of a system that can survive in such hellish conditions, give this example, please

                Quote: teder
                By the way, not only in the USSR, pay attention in any country where they tried to build Leninist-style socialism — either everything has already collapsed or is taking confident steps in this direction

                - The Union was the "engine" of the entire social. systems. On a planetary scale
                - collapsed (collapsed) Union - bent (completely natural) and the whole system

                That's about it, IMHO.
                1. teder
                  teder 14 January 2017 21: 47
                  +2
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  but it was much better than the current

                  But this has nothing to do with comparison - the price is today and then.
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  - unlike a car, TV and other things you have listed - it belonged to "luxury goods" and was sold at greatly inflated prices

                  But Bread and milk - at low prices - that's why I said - the comparison is not correct.
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  what a ow-drop! And neither do I, believe it

                  I believe

                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  the system was purposefully felled. Both outside and inside

                  If those living in this system knock it inside out and it cannot resist outside influence, then it is not viable, in general, what I said.
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  if you know an example of a system that can survive in such hellish conditions, give this example, please

                  And why, I know viable systems - they need to be followed.
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  The Union was the "engine" of the entire social. systems. On a planetary scale
                  - collapsed (collapsed) Union - bent (completely natural) and the whole system

                  I do not understand what the conversation is about?
                  If the whole system is twisted on one hexagon and there is no possibility of dubbing - again we return to mine - the system is not viable.
                  1. Cat man null
                    Cat man null 14 January 2017 21: 53
                    +4
                    Quote: teder
                    Quote: Cat Man Null

                    but it was much better than the current

                    But this has nothing to do with comparison - the price is today and then.

                    Explain arithmetic:
                    - something (quality) costs (conditionally) 2 rubles, but is sold below cost — for one and a half
                    - something (not too high quality) costs one and a half rubles and is sold for them
                    - this is about the kind of trick there is with "bread then" and "bread now"

                    I won’t argue with the rest, although I don’t agree with everything. Let's just say that - you understand.
                    1. teder
                      teder 14 January 2017 21: 57
                      +1
                      Quote: Cat Man Null
                      - something (quality) costs (conditionally) 2 rubles, but is sold below cost — for one and a half
                      - something (not too high quality) costs one and a half rubles and is sold for them
                      - this is about the kind of trick there is with "bread then" and "bread now"

                      I explain arithmetic
                      Now the average temperature of patients in the hospital is .0.3 degrees higher than it was 20 years ago.
                      here is about the same thing with "bread then" and "bread now
                      Best regards hi
                      1. JS20
                        JS20 15 January 2017 15: 49
                        0
                        Quote: teder
                        I explain arithmetic

                        Do not explain.
                        It is not that he cannot understand, he does not want to understand. But he wants to "communicate". Therefore, he will not be able to explain anything.
                        I have already stopped responding to him (and the like). Sorry for the time.
              2. 34 region
                34 region 14 January 2017 21: 46
                +3
                20.01/XNUMX. Tader! Do Germans or Americans don’t subsidize products? What does deficit and empty shelves mean? Lack of money today, is it a shortage or abundance? Is a small amount of natural food deficiency or abundance? Why under capitalism are the poor and unemployed?
                1. teder
                  teder 15 January 2017 07: 00
                  0
                  Quote: Region 34
                  Germans or Americans don’t subsidize products? What does deficit and empty shelves mean? Lack of money today, is it a shortage or abundance?

                  Do you think that capitalism is in Russia? Actually, of course, yes, but you cannot talk about Russia as a country with a developed capitalist society.
                  Quote: Region 34
                  Why under capitalism are the poor and unemployed?

                  Fasting nothing.
                  I have been to many countries and have seen homeless and unemployed in the most prosperous of them - talk specifically about which country you are talking about
                2. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 08: 16
                  +1
                  Lack of money today, is it a shortage or abundance?

                  Lack of money is a temporary phenomenon. Today is - tomorrow is not
                  A small amount of natural food

                  This is just a matter of your legibility. We need natural high-quality products - you will find them, no - you will eat doshirak and minced meat from offal
                  Why under capitalism are the poor and unemployed

                  Why, under socialism, almost all the poor working at the same time?
          2. 34 region
            34 region 14 January 2017 21: 42
            +2
            19.22. Can we talk about the prosperity of modern Russia? How does the standard of living from paid services grow?
          3. Uncle Murzik
            Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 07: 49
            +2
            JS20 I myself lived in the USSR like my parents, but just the poor and the homeless almost did not exist, unlike our time! lol The famous philosopher Sergei Kara-Murza emphasized that in post-Soviet Russia “a“ social bottom ”has formed, which makes up about 10% of the urban population or 11 million people. Its structure includes poor, homeless, street children. Most of the poor and homeless have secondary and specialized secondary education, and 6% have higher education! People without a home. The problem of homelessness is massive ...
            topwar.ru ›80199-lyudi ... bezdomnosti-nosit-massovyy ...
        2. teder
          teder 14 January 2017 19: 37
          +1
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          teder and who owned factories and collective farms in the USSR?

          Of course, to the state. Farmers and workers did not decide anything.
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          there was free education and medicine, free housing with a penny, trips!

          And now what?
          In capital countries (I mean developed ones) - everything is for money, and yet their standard of living is an order of magnitude higher.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 14 January 2017 19: 50
            +4
            Quote: teder
            In capital countries (I mean developed ones) - everything is for money, and yet their standard of living is an order of magnitude higher.

            I did not understand this. Can you give more details?
            1. teder
              teder 14 January 2017 19: 53
              +1
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              I did not understand this. Can you give more details?

              More about what?
              Ask specifically, preferably with an indication of the country; I have visited many, very many countries during my life. hi
              1. JS20
                JS20 15 January 2017 15: 52
                +2
                Quote: teder
                I have visited many, many, many countries in my life

                In general, I get the impression that "socialism" is being praised by those who, apart from their own Zadrischensk, have never been anywhere else. Well, maybe packages in Turkey / Egypt / Tunisia else. Therefore, they "firmly know" that it is bad everywhere except the USSR. Incl. in Russia.
                1. Uncle Murzik
                  Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 09: 23
                  +3
                  In the USSR there were beggarly salaries. Now most live much better than in Soviet times

                  Rebuttal
                  In reality, the average salary in the USSR could buy much more than the average salary in the current Russian Federation. And even without taking into account the huge amount of "non-monetized benefits" that the workers in the USSR had and which liberals are gradually depriving them of, the conclusion in favor of the USSR is still obvious:

                  The average monthly salary in the USSR
                  1970 - 122 руб.
                  1975 - 145,8 руб.
                  1980 - 168,9 руб.
                  1985 - 190,1 руб.
                  Source: Economic Issues, 1990, No. 3, p. 113
                  Moreover, the average salary in the USSR really characterized the average standard of living of the population.

                  The average salary in the modern Russian Federation (as of January 2009) is 15,2 thousand rubles.
                  Source
                  Moreover, in Russia, the average salary due to enormous stratification is not a reliable indicator.

                  Prices, USSR 1985
                  A loaf of bread (1 kg) 14 kopecks; sausage 2,20 rub. for 1 kg; beef 2 rub. for 1 kg; travel by bus (Leningrad) 5 kopecks .; high-quality jacket 80-100 rubles .; boots 40-60 rub.
                  Total average citizen of the USSR for its 190 rubles. in 1985 (that is, before Gorbachev came to power) he could acquire a month:
                  1357 loaves of bread, 86 kg of sausage, 95 kg of beef, 3800 bus rides, 2 jackets, 3-4 pairs of boots.

                  Prices, RF 2009:
                  A loaf of bread (800 g) 25 rubles .; sausage 315 rub. for 1 kg; beef 245 rub. for 1 kg; bus travel (St. Petersburg) 18 rubles .; high-quality jacket 5-7 thousand rubles .; shoes 3-4 thousand rubles.
                  Total average citizen of the Russian Federation for his 15200 rubles. Now can purchase a month:
                  608 loaves of bread, 48,3 kg of sausage, 62 kg of beef, 844 bus rides, 2-3 jackets, 3-5 pairs of boots.

                  Also,
                  THE USSR:
                  Single travel card - 2.40 rubles. (1,3% of the salary of 190 rubles);
                  Airplane ticket - 34 rub. (18% of the salary in 190 rubles.)
                  The rent is 19 rubles. (10% of the salary in 190 rubles.)
                  Two-room apartment in a cooperative - 5000 rubles. (~ 26 salaries).

                  RF:
                  Single travel card - 1070 rubles. (7% of the salary of 15,2 thousand rubles);
                  Airplane ticket - 5000 rubles. (33% of the salary of 15,2 thousand rubles)
                  The rent for the Khrushchev, which was repaired the last time back in Soviet times - 2500 rubles. (16,4% of the salary of 15,2 thousand rubles), and after the reform of the housing and communal services there will be even more.
                  One-bedroom apartment (St. Petersburg) - approximately 3500000 rubles. (230 salaries!).

                  As we see the comparison is already in favor of the USSR.

                  But that is not all.
                  These were net salary data. But the data on the average monthly wage of workers and employees with the addition (!!) of payments and benefits from public consumption funds:
                  1980 - 233 руб.
                  1985 - 269 руб.
                  1986 - 278 руб.
                  Source: Stat. Sat The National Economy of the USSR in 1990, S. 46

                  If we count on a salary of 269 rubles, we get that in 1985 a citizen of the USSR could acquire:
                  1921 a loaf of bread, 122 kg of sausage, 134,5 kg of beef, 5380 bus rides, 2-3 jackets, 5-7 pairs of boots.
                  Single travel card - 2.40 rubles. (0,9% of the salary of 269 rubles);
                  Airplane ticket - 34 rub. (12,6% of the salary in 269 rubles.)
                  The rent is 19 rubles. (7% of the salary in 269 rubles.)
                  Two-room apartment in a cooperative - 5000 rubles. (~ 19 salaries).

                  But that is not all. The fact is that we compared the standard of living in one RF with the all-Union one. However, the average monthly salary of workers and employees with the addition of payments and benefits from public consumption funds in the RSFSR was higher than the average for the USSR:
                  1980 - 242,7 руб.
                  1985 - 282,7 руб.
                  1986 - 293 руб.
                  Source: National Economy of the RSFSR for 70 years.

                  That is, if we compare the Russian Federation with the RSFSR, everything will be even more unpleasant for the liberals. But if we take all the former republics of the USSR, somehow calculate the average level and compare with the average for the USSR, then there can only be one conclusion: liberalism is a criminal ideology that has brought one solid harm to our country. Myth. In the USSR there were beggarly salaries.
                  vk.com ›page-64433_4020681
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 17 January 2017 20: 00
                    +2
                    Uncle Murzik, click on the link
                    http://proletaire.ucoz.ru/publ/8000_dollarov_bols
                    he_600_rublej/1-1-0-70
                    There is an interesting article by the editor of the newspaper "Duel" Y. Mukhin on your topic.
              2. Uncle Murzik
                Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 08: 51
                +1
                Every fifth child in America lives on a food stamp system, according to the same census bureau. Comparison figure: in 2007 every seventh American child lived on this system. Fact No. 8. More than half of public school students are so poor that they cannot afford lunch in the school cafeteria.
                http://www.pravda.ru/news/world/northamerica/usac
                anada/03-11-2015/1280896-poverty-0/
      4. 34 region
        34 region 14 January 2017 21: 40
        +2
        10.44. Tader! Weird! And who then entered the country's educational institutions and went to the construction sites of socialism? For whom, then, did tractors build and produce cities?
    4. JS20
      JS20 14 January 2017 18: 42
      +1
      Quote: cap
      But it is impossible to deny that from Russia bast shoes, the country has become an industrial power, already under the leadership of the "real Leninist" I. Dzhugashvili (Stalin)

      1. Dzhugashvili had nothing in common with the "faithful Leninist". Moreover, the system of "socialism" built by him directly contradicted Ulyanov's NEP.
      2. No industrial power of the USSR until 1945. not even a trace. Those. even somewhere near this was not.
      Quote: cap
      and this is all over the same twenty-odd years, without the "nanotechnology" of CNC machines, and mobile communications along with computers and iPhones

      Yes, it only took about 30 million lives of conscientious people before the USSR took possession of truly advanced technologies and for some time was able to invite really high-class specialists to work for itself. Which were able to teach something to Soviet specialists.
      Alas, knowledge is universal and "forever" does not exist. Therefore, by the beginning of the 90s, this knowledge was outdated, and new ones, of course, were not created under "developed socialism". Therefore, science in the USSR happened to be a priest with the letter "Zh".
      1. Uncle Murzik
        Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 42
        +4
        JS20 you again, to say the least, are deceiving! lol By the beginning of World War II, the Soviet Union had powerful industry, developed socialist agriculture and large labor resources. In the national economy in 1940, nearly 34 million workers and office workers worked. Tens of millions of people were engaged in productive labor on collective farms. In total, 88,3 percent were employed in material production, and 11,7 percent of the amateur population in non-productive sectors. As of January 1, 1941, the number of specialists in the national economy was 2401 thousand people, of which 909 thousand had a higher education and 1 thousand had a specialized secondary education. In the last pre-war year, the number of graduate engineers in the USSR was 492 thousand, while in the USA it was 295 thousand. In 170, 1940 thousand workers were trained and retrained in the system of labor reserves and in the network of vocational education.

        The economy of the USSR before the Great Patriotic War

        By the beginning of World War II, the Soviet Union had powerful industry, developed socialist agriculture and large labor resources. In the national economy in 1940, nearly 34 million workers and office workers worked. Tens of millions of people were engaged in productive labor on collective farms. In total, 88,3 percent were employed in material production, and 11,7 percent of the amateur population in non-productive sectors. As of January 1, 1941, the number of specialists in the national economy was 2401 thousand people, of which 909 thousand had a higher education and 1 thousand had a specialized secondary education. In the last pre-war year, the number of graduate engineers in the USSR was 492 thousand, while in the USA it was 295 thousand. In 170, 1940 thousand workers were trained and retrained in the system of labor reserves and in the network of vocational education.

        The involvement of millions of women and youth in production made it possible to maneuver with skilled labor, make up for its losses in connection with the draft of men, and also satisfy the needs of growing military industry and defense construction.

        Assembly of tractors at the conveyor of the Stalingrad plant
        Assembly of tractors at the conveyor of the Stalingrad plant

        For the comprehensive development of industry, the USSR had rich mineral reserves. He occupied either the first or one of the first places in the world in explored reserves of oil, coal, gas, iron and manganese ores, aluminum raw materials, chromites, titanium, copper, lead, nickel, cobalt, tungsten, molybdenum, tin, rare metals, diamonds, asbestos, potassium salts, apatites, phosphorites. The Soviet state during the years of the prewar five-year plans achieved significant successes in the development of industry.

        By the beginning of 1941, in the Soviet Union, the total volume of industrial production assets of power plants and the electric network amounted to 8,9 percent, fuel industry - 10,6, ferrous metallurgy - 8,5, non-ferrous metallurgy - 3,9, engineering and metalworking - 28,1 , 6,9, chemical industry - 7,3, light industry - 375, [11,1] food industry - 3,7, building materials industry - 11 percent. The remaining industries accounted for approximately 1131 percent {XNUMX}.

        This industry structure reflected scientifically based intersectoral proportions. The share of heavy industries exceeded 70 percent. Data on industrial production are given in table 25.

        Table 25. Production by leading industries of the USSR in 1939 - 1941 {1132}

        Name of products

        Units

        November 1939, XNUMX

        November 1940, XNUMX

        1941, the first half of the year

        electric power

        billion kWh

        43,2

        48,3

        27,4

        Oil

        million tons

        30,3

        31,1

        17,3

        Coal

        million tons

        146,2

        165,9

        91,9

        Cast iron

        million tons

        14,5

        14,9

        9,0

        Steel

        million tons

        17,6

        18,3

        11,4

        Hire

        million tons

        12,7

        13,1

        8,2

        Iron ore

        million tons

        26,9

        29,9

        16,6

        Manganese ore

        million tons

        2,3

        2,6

        1,5

        Metal-cutting machines

        thousand pieces

        55,0

        58,4

        28,1

        Considering the special role of the electric power industry in the development of the country's economy and the military-economic base, the party ensured higher growth rates in comparison with other industries. In 1940, electricity generation compared to 1913 increased by 25 times.

        In terms of growth in electricity production, the USSR was 2–3 times ahead of the main capitalist countries. The rapid growth of electricity production has opened up opportunities for accelerated development of other industries.

        The Communist Party paid much attention to the fuel industry. As a result of the implementation of a number of decisions of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR, oil production increased significantly. In the Soviet Union for the first half of 1941, the milestone of 17,3 million tons was taken. Fascist Germany, along with the occupied and allied countries, produced much less oil.

        The coal industry was one of the leading branches of the heavy industry of the USSR. By the level of mechanization of work in coal mines and opencast mines, the Soviet Union went ahead of England, Germany and other European states. The introduction of new equipment and the latest technology ensured a rapid increase in labor productivity and high rates of coal production. Before the Great Patriotic War, this industry developed especially rapidly. The Kuznetsk basin was turned into a powerful coal base, where coal production increased in 1940. compared with 1913, more than 24 times, while in the country it increased 6 times. But in terms of coal production, Germany even without taking into account the use of coal reserves of the occupied and dependent countries significantly exceeded the Soviet Union. [376]

        The metallurgical industry of the USSR, overcoming the lag of 1938 - 1939, was gaining momentum. However, in the smelting of ferrous metals, Germany almost twice exceeded the Soviet Union.

        Construction of a copper-nickel plant. Mednogorsk. 1940
        Construction of a copper-nickel plant. Mednogorsk. 1940

        By the beginning of World War II, several hundred non-ferrous metal enterprises were operating in the USSR, including large ones such as the Balkhash smelter, Chimkent lead plant, Ural aluminum plant, Yuzhuralnickel plant, Chelyabinsk zinc electrolysis plant, Tyrny-Auzsky tungsten- molybdenum plant, Moscow carbide plant, etc.

        The pace of development of non-ferrous metallurgy was approximately 2–3 times higher than that of ferrous. Only in the first half of 1941 was much more aluminum, nickel, tin, blister copper, tungsten and molybdenum concentrates produced than in the whole of 1937, Germany produced much less copper and nickel than the Soviet Union, but much more aluminum, lead, zinc, magnesium.

        The gross output of the chemical industry, including mining and chemical, in 1940 compared to 1913 in the USSR increased by 25 times. The production of soda ash (95%) in 1940 amounted to 536 thousand tons, caustic soda (92%) - 190 thousand tons, sulfuric acid in monohydrate - 1 thousand tons, synthetic resins and plastics - 587 thousand tons of synthetic ammonia - 11 thousand tons, chemical fibers - 338 thousand tons, synthetic rubber - 11 thousand tons, synthetic dyes - 97 thousand tons.

        Engineering played a decisive role in the technical re-equipment of the entire economy, especially the military. This industry developed in the USSR at a faster pace than other industries. While the gross industrial output in 1940 exceeded the level of 1913 by 7,7 times, including group “A” - 13,4 times, group “B” - 4,6 times, then engineering and metalworking - 30 times {1133}. Many engineering industries were created only during the Soviet era: the tractor industry, automobile, aviation and others. The total capacity of steam and gas turbines produced in 1940 amounted to 972 thousand kW, AC electric motors - 527 thousand kW. The country received 24 thousand tons of metallurgical equipment, 119 thousand units of forging equipment, 16 thousand tons of oil equipment, 914 long-distance steam locomotives, 32 thousand long-distance passenger and freight cars, 145 thousand different cars, 32 thousand tractors and much more techniques {1134}.

        Machine tool construction in the USSR was created to a large extent from the beginning. The pace of its development was very high. The volume of machine-tool production in 1940 exceeded the level of 1913 by 39 times. However, the German machine-tool industry was at that time the most developed in the world, giving more products. If in the USSR the park of metal-cutting machine tools in 1940 amounted to 710 thousand {1135}, then in Germany in 1941 - almost 1,7 million {1136}. In addition, as a result of the occupation of France and other countries of Western and Central Europe, Germany received the opportunity to expand its machinery.

        The pace of development and the level of production in the USSR of light and food industries met the needs of workers and the country's defense. [377] In 1940, all types of fabrics in the Soviet Union were 4522 million linear meters, 211 million pairs of leather shoes, 29 million tons of flour, 1 thousand tons of meat, 501 thousand tons of animal oil, 226 thousand tons of sugar {2}.
        1. JS20
          JS20 16 January 2017 01: 14
          +2
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          By the beginning of World War II, the Soviet Union had powerful industry

          But what about the equipment and weapons were so sloppy?
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          developed socialist agriculture

          But why did the USA, in terms of Soviet norms of allowance, average (if scattered all the time) fed 11 million people from the beginning of the war until September 1945? And later in the USSR the famine of 1946 suddenly happened?
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          and large labor resources.

          With "large labor resources" already in September 1943. the problem was drawn. Any resources, if scattered with them, they are not limitless.
          I won't read your footcloth further. Funny Soviet editorials amused me even under "socialism".
          1. murriou
            murriou 16 January 2017 08: 18
            +4
            Quote: JS20
            But what about the equipment and weapons were so sloppy?

            Yeah, yeah, they suck that they ended the war in Berlin, smash the Kwantung Army over bumps in a very short time with an excellent ratio of losses, and after the war, Soviet "suck" weapons set a record for combat longevity around the world.

            You, carbine, at least sometimes check your exuberant fantasies with more reliable sources of historical facts. laughing
            1. AllXVahhaB
              AllXVahhaB 16 January 2017 10: 18
              +4
              Quote: murriou
              You, carbine, at least sometimes check your exuberant fantasies

              It's just that Mr. Canadian convinces, first of all himself, that he did the right thing by dumping from bloody Mordor into a prosperous western "paradise" wink Well, God bless him ... Let it comfort your laughing
            2. Gerard Roussillon
              Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 16: 06
              +1
              Yeah, yeah, so lame that they ended the war in Berlin

              If you equip a million people with sticks, then they will kill the battalion with machine guns in any way.
              The Germans in the 43rd in the series went jet Me 262, we have the Yak 3, which was approximately equal to Spitfire V of the 41st year of release.
              But that’s not even the point. The point is the inability to correctly use what was. Our losses during the war did not decrease. As 20 aircraft were lost by us in the 000st, so in the 41th, the same order of numbers
              1. murriou
                murriou 16 January 2017 17: 04
                +3
                Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                If you equip a million people with sticks, then they will kill the battalion with machine guns in any way.

                And why are you talking about this nonsense? Did the USSR have a numerical advantage on several. orders? At the beginning of the Second World War, the Germans had an almost twofold numerical advantage; in the counterattack near Moscow, the Red Army defeated the Germans numerically superior until 1944. the USSR had no significant numerical advantage at all.

                Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                Germans in the 43rd in a series went jet Me 262

                So what? Until the end of the war, the Germans did not manage to rid their wunderwaffe of "childhood diseases", the production volumes remained very modest, it also could not make a significant contribution to the hostilities, and after the war this branch of development was forgotten.

                Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                so in the 44th, the same order of numbers

                Share the source of your "information". "Memorial"? Solonin? Solzhenitsyn? laughing
          2. Uncle Murzik
            Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 12: 16
            +3
            Js20 well i'm not surprised lol you always have the same verbiage!
        2. Gerard Roussillon
          Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 15: 54
          +1
          By the beginning of World War II, the Soviet Union had powerful industry

          This whole industry was built by the common people. People worked and got a puff. They took away the bread from the peasants and sold them to Europe, and the peasants were given "workdays" at 27 kopecks per day. Chervonets per month. And these people did not go to any resorts and did not receive anything in return for their labor. How many steamer factories have you counted? Now count how much the Bolsheviks took from the people
          1. murriou
            murriou 16 January 2017 17: 07
            +3
            Quote: Gerard Roussillon
            This whole industry was built at the expense of ordinary people.

            And at the expense of which, interestingly, people are you suggesting you create it? laughing

            Quote: Gerard Roussillon
            Count now how many Bolsheviks have taken from the people

            Waiting for your * revelations * и * profound inferences " laughing

            And when the tsarist regime took almost everything from the people, do you think this is normal?
  5. Olgovich
    Olgovich 14 January 2017 10: 08
    +10
    At first, millions of people were killed for their "ideas", then they said that they were mistaken and that there was no way to do without the capitalist NEP.

    One shouldn't be surprised at the mistakes of the authorities: the entire first Council of People's Commissars was a "team" nowhere, never before working persons without specific occupations, who have not earned a dime in their lives by personal labor (except for Shlyapnikov). Suffice it to recall the innumerable letters of the 30-year-old loaf of Maria Ulyanova: "Mom, send money," Mom, leave 100 rubles. "

    How could these inexperienced people, completely cut off from real life and production work, manage the most complicated economy and a huge country? Only by the method of "poking" and continuous huge mistakes, the price of which was the destroyed economy of Russia and millions of destitute and perished. Then they learned something, but what did it cost ...

    However, they got deserved fee: THE WHOLE first composition of the Council of People's Commissars of 26.11.1917 in full force was destroyed by Stalin in 1937 (except for those who were lucky enough to die before 1937)
    1. cap
      cap 14 January 2017 10: 34
      +3
      Quote: Olgovich
      However, they received a well-deserved pay: ALL of the first composition of the Council of People's Commissars of 26.11.1917/1937/1937 in full force was destroyed by Stalin in XNUMX (except for those who were lucky enough to die before XNUMX)


      That's good. laughing
    2. knn54
      knn54 14 January 2017 10: 49
      +3
      - they got a well-deserved pay.
      There were many disagreements - "new opposition", "workers' opposition" and other "Witnesses ... of MARKSism" imbued with the spirit of "war communism". And the matter was not limited to words only.
      Yes. It's hard to be the first.
      BUT over the years, laws and mechanisms for their implementation have been developed. Financial discipline appeared, taxes began to come in. Intermediaries disappeared. Dealers. They fought hard against corruption. Cooperatives remained, even (in modern terms) in the military-industrial complex.
      PS Unfortunately, today we have a TYPICAL NEP (in all its glory), not capitalism. IMHO
      1. cap
        cap 14 January 2017 12: 24
        +2
        Quote: knn54
        PS Unfortunately, today we have a TYPICAL NEP (in all its glory), not capitalism. IMHO


        I agree with your IMHO, but I would like NEP to be typical, modern realities say that we do not even reach NEP.
      2. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 19: 30
        +1
        Quote: knn54
        Unfortunately, we have a TYPICAL NEP (in all its glory) today, not capitalism.

        100%. State capitalism (under the Bolsheviks was called the NEP). The last stage of feudalism.
    3. Stanislas
      Stanislas 14 January 2017 13: 25
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      How could these inexperienced people, completely divorced from real life and production work, manage a complex economy and a huge country?
      The revolutionary consciousness of the masses: "The teaching of Marx is omnipotent because it is true" (VI Lenin). Svidomo, speaking in today's language. And it began smoothly, with "practice - the criterion of truth."
      1. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 19: 26
        +2
        Quote: Stanislav
        “The doctrine of Marx is omnipotent because it is true” (V.I. Lenin)

        Something Ulyanov in 1921. he gave up the "correct teachings" of Marx. Probably because I was doubly convinced of their loyalty.
    4. V.ic
      V.ic 14 January 2017 15: 14
      +3
      Quote: Olgovich
      who didn’t earn a dime in their personal work (except for Shlyapnikov).

      Yes? That's right, lie so to the fullest! You don't know the last name Krasin? Krasin L.B. in December 1917 he became a member of the Council of People's Commissars. In the RSDLP since 1903. One of the nicknames "engineer". He worked for the German firm Siemens & Schuckert. Here is the link, read to broaden your horizons and don't keep us suckers! http://www.peoples.ru/state/statesmen/leonid_kras
      in / index2.html
      About Comrade Google Artyom (Sergeyev) yourself, especially about the Australian period of his life ...
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 14 January 2017 18: 50
        +4
        Quote: V.ic
        Yes? That's right, lie so to the fullest! Do you know the surname Krasin? Krasin L.B. in December 1917 he became a member of the Council of People's Commissars. In the RSDLP since 1903. One of the nicknames is "engineer". He worked for the German company Siemens and Schuckert. Here is the link, read to broaden your horizons and don't hold us but suckers!


        Do not be nervous, you just need to carefully read what WHAT You answer. And I have clearly written about the FIRST composition of the SNK, appointed precisely 26 October. Then all kinds of people already entered (and left) it, including and Krasin et al. but in first it was NOT a member (of October 26), there were only professional parasites who never worked. Great lobsters, who spent most of their lives on the neck of their parents, donors and trusting suckers (Schmidt sisters).

        For dunnoThe composition of SNK from 26.10.17
        Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars - Vladimir Ulyanov (Lenin)
        People's Commissar for Internal Affairs - A. I. Rykov
        People's Commissar of Agriculture - V.P. Milyutin
        People's Commissar of Labor - A. G. Shlyapnikov
        People’s Commissariat for Military and Naval Affairs - Committee, composed of: V. A. Ovseenko (Antonov) (in the text of the Decree on the formation of the Council of People's Commissars - Avseenko), N. V. Krylenko and P. E. Dybenko
        People's Commissar of Education - A. V. Lunacharsky
        People's Commissar of Finance - I. I. Skvortsov (Stepanov)
        People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs - L. D. Bronstein (Trotsky)
        People's Commissar of Justice - G. I. Oppokov (Lomov)
        People's Commissar for Food - I. A. Teodorovich
        People's Commissar of Posts and Telegraphs - N.P. Avilov (Glebov)
        People's Commissar for Nationalities - I. V. Dzhugashvili (Stalin)


        Learn, and then you will not be this:
        don't hold us but suckers
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 15 January 2017 09: 09
          +3
          Quote: Olgovich
          And I have clearly written about the FIRST composition of the SNK, appointed precisely on October 26th.

          Dear, I did not say "in the absence of a maid. But a janitor." If the Bolsheviks and the Mezhraiontsy who joined them judged and ordered who to sit in which chair, they would most likely settle in the Peter and Paul Fortress. Tova'gich Trotsky would say that movement is everything. They took what was at hand and in the end were right. Review the film "Vyborg Side".
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 15 January 2017 22: 32
            +3
            Quote: V.ic
            Dear, I did not say "in the absence of a maid. But a janitor." If the Bolsheviks and the Mezhraiontsy who joined them judged and ordered who to sit in which chair, they would most likely settle in the Peter and Paul Fortress. Tova'gich Trotsky would say that movement is everything. They took what was at hand and in the end were right. Revise the film "Vyborg Side"

            belay Are you talking about?

            WHERE krasin and Artem in the first composition of SNK, as you claimed, accusing me of lies?
            Liedsomething as i showed it is YOU.
    5. 34 region
      34 region 14 January 2017 15: 23
      +8
      10.08/90. Olgovich! Only opponents of Soviet ideas did well to cut out carriers of red ideas in the Civil and Patriotic. They are straight white and fluffy, like a fox. Opponents came to power in the XNUMXs. AND? Where is the exhaust from these hard workers? Why do they constantly ask foreigners to invest in Russia? Gaidar annual forum is not a forum for beggars? And what is our Ministry of Economic Development doing? Ministry of Economic Fortune-telling! And it should be an economic general staff, where economic marshals should develop and implement economic plans. And what are we doing today in the economy? We hold the defense or attack? No. We stupidly surrender everything, unlike the Bolsheviks.
      1. cap
        cap 14 January 2017 17: 40
        +3
        Quote: Region 34
        We stupidly surrender everything, unlike the Bolsheviks.


        It seems like a reality. hi
      2. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 19: 44
        +4
        Quote: Region 34
        And what are we doing today in the economy? We hold the defense or attack?

        The economy is not a war. Therefore, "soldier's terms" are inappropriate here.
        Quote: Region 34
        We stupidly surrender everything, unlike the Bolsheviks.

        Indeed, the Bolsheviks requisitioned (stole) everything, including the church gold, melted it into ingots and took it abroad. But now people like you write "stupidly we hand over everything, unlike the Bolsheviks."
        1. 34 region
          34 region 15 January 2017 03: 20
          +2
          19.44. The economy is war. Therefore, the terms of the Soldafon are more than appropriate. All economic wars go according to strategic plans. Be it a country plan or a TNC plan. And the war with strategy is the most successful. Like for example the USA. It is very successfully fighting economic methods. Yes, and what was there with gold in the USA? Hand over all the gold in fear of imprisonment? And how then is freedom?
          1. JS20
            JS20 15 January 2017 16: 02
            +3
            Quote: Region 34
            The economy is war.

            The "witnesses of socialism" even have a trip to the toilet. With constipation of thoughts, apparently. After all, there are enemies around.
            Quote: Region 34
            All economic wars go according to strategic plans.

            Economic war is a rare force majeure circumstance. "Witnesses" with eq. wars confuse economic competition (competition) of different countries.
        2. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 04: 15
          +3
          JS20 you as a dreamer should know! Denikin in his memoirs says that this telegram caused a noisy glee in the white camp.
          “Mamontov’s return to the Don,” says Kalinin, “resembled the arrival of a triumphant. He brought a huge valuable booty in tribute to the Don army. Whatever it was, thousands of gold and silver items, gold-plated icons, church vessels, pearls and diamonds. ” (Russian Vendée, p. 152).
          Of course, it’s not difficult to answer where the Mammoth fellows got church utensils and icons from. They robbed churches widely. They tore off everything that came across in the churches, as long as it was a value. Their thieving gangster qualities were fully manifested.
          Reporting the above telegram, the magazine "Revolution and the Church" wrote:
          “Mammoth workers were going to bring expensive icons and utensils. Where did they get them from? And the most mysterious will understand: they plundered. Robbed houses, churches. After all, you will not find church utensils in food shops, it can only be found in churches, and these churches are robbed by the Mammoths. And since the Mammoth fellows had a conscience, as the peasants said on the ground, “mares” and thieves' hands, it’s possible, of course, to imagine how many church decorations and precious stones they had from gold salaries ”. (No. 3-5 for 1919).
          Former White Guard I. Lunchenkov as follows tells in his memoirs about Mamontov’s booty, about its further fate and the robbery of other church values. The main part of this extraction was made of precious robes, icons and crosses, taken from the “churches of God” of central Russia, and numerous safe deposit boxes of the banks of those cities where he passed with the fire and sword of the Mamontov. This “gift to the Don” became the bone of contention between Sidorin and Bogaevsky when White was on the Don. Having intercepted the “gift” in Millerovo (the headquarters of the Don Army), Sidorin shamelessly began to choose the most valuable from him. The greedy Bogaevsky was not averse to profit from “prey” himself. The discord between the chieftain and the commander ended with an evacuation, so that he could continue abroad even more fiercely.
          For the Mamont’s church utensils, the “Christ-loving” Bogaevsky did not forget to grab the values ​​of the old Cherkassk and Novocherkassk cathedrals (mainly precious icons, vestments from them, crosses and chalices).
          This party, as the most valuable, was captured with the praying and gold-loving Nadezhda Vasilyevna Bogaevskaya, along with the emblem of the Ataman authorities, and, by the way, eleven pounds of pure gold!
          1. JS20
            JS20 15 January 2017 16: 04
            +3
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            Their thieving gangster qualities were fully manifested.

            Take an interest in the Bolshevik requisition.
            1. Uncle Murzik
              Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 47
              +3
              JS20 what are your funny answers! wassat
      3. Gerard Roussillon
        Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 08: 26
        +2
        . Opponents came to power in the 90s. AND? Where is the exhaust from these hard workers?

        Better tell me where communism, promised as we know by the 80th year, or by communism was meant deficit and endless queues
      4. Stanislas
        Stanislas 15 January 2017 20: 03
        +2
        Quote: Region 34
        We stupidly surrender everything, unlike the Bolsheviks.
        Why are you so stupid? (Passed by, could not resist)
    6. JS20
      JS20 14 January 2017 19: 24
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      and without the capitalist NEP can not do

      NEP was "state capitalism". This is an element of the feudal CEF, not the capitalist one.
  6. Gerard Roussillon
    Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 10: 22
    +4
    Therefore, already in November 1921, in his famous work “On the Importance of Gold Now and After the Complete Victory of Socialism”, Lenin unexpectedly completely rehabilitated the idea of ​​“reformism” in Marxist teaching

    And what for was it all up to? Lenin, in all his genius, realized the fallacy of Marxist teaching. Book theory turned out to be inoperative in practice.
    1. cap
      cap 14 January 2017 10: 55
      +3
      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
      Book theory turned out to be inoperative in practice.


      Now there is simply nothing to read. Well, of course, except for the global economy, about which the writers themselves have a vague idea. Therefore, we are republishing K. Marx and Adolf, in Germany, for example. To live at the expense of a neighbor, that's all "globality". a rich country in the world, it is also a prey, for such "boys" as Soros and Co.
      1. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 19: 46
        +3
        Quote: cap
        Russia is the richest country in the world

        Who told you that?
      2. teder
        teder 14 January 2017 19: 48
        +2
        Quote: cap
        Russia is the richest country in the world

        And by what criteria do you rate?
        1. JS20
          JS20 15 January 2017 00: 59
          +2
          Quote: teder
          And by what criteria do you rate?

          He does not evaluate by any means. I’ve memorized it once at the level at school, and since then I have spoiled from memory.
          1. You Vlad
            You Vlad 15 January 2017 12: 00
            +2
            Cool guys work, you put each other pluses laughing In terms of value, we are the richest, but what are the doubts?
            1. JS20
              JS20 15 January 2017 16: 06
              +1
              Quote: You Vlad
              In kind, we are the richest

              How's that?
              And what kind of "we are in denatural value"?
              Quote: You Vlad
              but what are the doubts?

              Is.
              1. You Vlad
                You Vlad 15 January 2017 17: 51
                +3
                There is money, that is, pieces of paper, but there is a natural product, bam, for example, a great depression and all these candy wrappers and nulls will depreciate, and the economy will collapse! But natural products such as water, minerals, agricultural products will not go anywhere! And we have no good enough tongue
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 20: 37
                  +1
                  Quote: You Vlad
                  There is money, that is, pieces of paper, but there is a natural product, bam, for example, a great depression and all these candy wrappers and nulls will depreciate, and the economy will collapse! But natural products such as water, minerals, agricultural products will not go anywhere! And we have no good grab

                  Enchanting. I give a standing ovation. "Revelations of an amateur". What is "industrial potential" he does not even know about it. Everything measures squirrels on skins.
                  1. You Vlad
                    You Vlad 15 January 2017 20: 39
                    +3
                    But essentially?
            2. Gerard Roussillon
              Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 17: 56
              +1
              In terms of value, we are the richest, but what are the doubts?

              Then the richest country is Zaire. Deposits, mines, wells, they just live normally - Germans who have nothing
              1. You Vlad
                You Vlad 15 January 2017 18: 00
                +2
                Well, tell me, what is the whole periodic table in Zaire?
                1. Gerard Roussillon
                  Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 16: 59
                  0
                  Well, tell me, what is the whole periodic table in Zaire?
                  Yes. Geography textbook for grade 8
              2. You Vlad
                You Vlad 15 January 2017 18: 06
                +4
                And the fact that the Soviet Union was developing the fastest in the world, you also have no doubt laughing You need to somehow get out of parallel reality tongue
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 20: 38
                  +2
                  Quote: You Vlad
                  And the fact that the Soviet Union was developing the fastest in the world, you also have no doubt

                  After your "revelations" above, I do not even doubt it.
                  Quote: You Vlad
                  You need to somehow get out of parallel reality

                  "Stop the thief" is usually the loudest cry of the thief himself. "
    2. Stanislas
      Stanislas 14 January 2017 14: 47
      +3
      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
      Lenin, in all his genius, realized the fallacy of Marxist teaching
      Before the revolution, Lenin criticized Marx (about the weak link in the chain of imperialism), then something was blown away.
      1. Stanislas
        Stanislas 14 January 2017 15: 18
        +1
        Quote: Stanislav
        criticized before the revolution
        Wrong, it seems after. But there was no movement other than to "revive capitalism" in every way.
    3. 34 region
      34 region 14 January 2017 15: 25
      +1
      10.22. Gerard! Are the teachings of Sobchak and Gaidar true?
      1. Gerard Roussillon
        Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 08: 30
        +1
        . And the teachings of Sobchak and Gaidar are faithful

        Well, these are amazing cranks. So they are members of the CPSU
    4. JS20
      JS20 14 January 2017 19: 45
      +2
      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
      Book theory turned out to be inoperative in practice.

      She was flawed in book theory.
  7. pimen
    pimen 14 January 2017 10: 39
    +2
    Quote: baudolino
    "The ability to" change shoes "indicates a poor understanding of what he undertook.

    With all due respect to Comrade Stalin, he hardly understood more than Lenin in the "opening"
    1. cap
      cap 14 January 2017 11: 21
      +1
      Quote: pimen
      Quote: baudolino
      "The ability to" change shoes "indicates a poor understanding of what he undertook.

      With all due respect to Comrade Stalin, he hardly understood more than Lenin in the "opening"


      Yes, the debut was not his, he called himself a Leninist. True, the methods were not always adequate, but we think so. And as it turned out by the end of his reign, not all of him were "ideological".
      1. pimen
        pimen 14 January 2017 11: 31
        0
        I do not understand your position
        1. cap
          cap 14 January 2017 11: 49
          +2
          Quote: pimen
          I do not understand your position


          Stalin, for all his ambiguity, supplied the Bolshevik party, including open robbery, and his task as a Bolshevik he saw in the prosperity of the country and the welfare of the people he served. This was the meaning of his life. And he proved it to us all, and to the whole world, his life. There will be no more such people. This is a historical fact. There was another, Fidel Castro. The kingdom of them is heaven. We will not see such people in our lifetime. I am sure of that. Here is my position for you.
          1. pimen
            pimen 14 January 2017 12: 01
            +1
            now I realized: approximately, like a dispute between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, although, I would probably say that Stalin simply progressed faster than the rest
            1. cap
              cap 14 January 2017 12: 31
              +3
              Quote: pimen
              now I realized: approximately, like a dispute between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, although, I would probably say that Stalin simply progressed faster than the rest


              He simply understood what class struggle was, probably a natural instinct, knowledge of the Bible and the realities of life, and on the subconscious, he derived his formula for the existence of the state. Accepting Russia with a plow, he left it with an atomic bomb. One is worthy of respect for the person. Word personality in the case of Stalin, you can safely write with a capital letter, so that they don’t speak there. hi
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 13: 25
                +1
                Having accepted Russia with a plow, he left it with an atomic bomb.

                This is a crafty statement. The Soviet Union, like other countries, did not stand in the country from technological progress.
                Having accepted the country with a cart, a steamboat, pigeon mail and a balloon, Nicholas II left Russia with a car, a strategic bomber, a radio and a submarine.
                After that, through the efforts of the Bolsheviks, deindustrialization took place in Russia and by the 20th year there was already nothing of the kind.
                He simply understood what class struggle is, probably a natural instinct, knowledge of the Bible and the realities of life,

                Stalin's flair repeatedly failed. In particular, with Hitler.
                Tell me, where did the class struggle in Germany go, for example?
                Stalin, in my opinion, understood one thing - it was necessary to return to the old model, but being a hostage to the communist model could not do this. Stalin was Stalin only in his communist world.
                1. Uncle Murzik
                  Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 15: 09
                  +6
                  Gerard of Roussillon The industrial backwardness of Russia from leading European countries determined the permanent lag in the number and quality of aircraft from England, France and Germany already during the war. The French aviation industry, for example, produced 1913 aircraft of various types in 541, as well as 1065 engines. Over the same period, Russian industry built only 296 aircraft, mostly licensed brands, and not a single serial aircraft engine of its own design.

                  In 1914, Germany managed to produce 1348 aircraft, and in subsequent years it significantly increased the pace of production, and most importantly - the quality of aviation products. At the same time, the gross output of all Russian aircraft factories, even in the most favorable year of 1916, did not exceed 30-40 aircraft per month, while the production of nationally developed aircraft engines was still absent. Even on structurally Russian aircraft, for example, on the same Ilya Muromets, either foreign engines or licensed assembly motors from foreign components were used. Russian military aircraft during the First World War
                  rusplt.ru ›World War I› History ›history_11951.html
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 14 January 2017 20: 02
                    +2
                    Quote: Uncle Murzik
                    The industrial backwardness of Russia from leading European countries determined the permanent lag in the number and quality of aircraft from England, France and Germany already during the war.

                    And who puts RI on a par with these countries?
                    But also to compare the level of technology of the USSR with these countries in 1941. somehow even frivolously.
                    1. Uncle Murzik
                      Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 52
                      +6
                      JS20 would you at least take a look at Wikipedia! lol CCCP was one of the 5 countries in the world capable of independently producing all types of industrial products known to mankind. The USSR was in first place in the world in the production of oil, steel, cast iron, metal-cutting machines, diesel locomotives, electric locomotives, tractors, prefabricated reinforced concrete structures, iron ore, coke, refrigerators, woolen fabrics, leather shoes, butter, natural gas production, and the production of mineral fertilizers, lumber, reactor uranium (50% of world production), rail freight and passenger turnover, second in the world in catching fish and other seafood, sheep, pigs, electricity, gold, cement, coal, the total length of railways, road freight turnover, air freight and passenger traffic [19] [20]
                      1. svp67
                        svp67 15 January 2017 20: 21
                        +3
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        JS20 would you at least take a look at Wikipedia!
                        Yes, do not bother you to live in your own world. He knows everything that everything was bad in the USSR and it was inherited by the current Russian Federation.
                        And most importantly, he knows the purpose of his life - "to open our eyes to this"
                      2. JS20
                        JS20 16 January 2017 01: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        CCCP was one of the 5 countries in the world capable of independently producing all types of industrial products known to mankind.

                        Write about the quality of "human products"?
                        Where is she now?
                        Well, there is no point in reading further, "and delirium continues again."
                      3. JS20
                        JS20 16 January 2017 01: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: svp67
                        He knows everything that everything was bad in the USSR and it was inherited by the current Russian Federation.

                        Is it obligatory to impersonate?
                        Or do old manners fail over the years, but only get worse?
                        Where did you read that I equated the Russian Federation with the USSR?
                        Lord, and what kind of villains are not in RuNet.
                    2. svp67
                      svp67 15 January 2017 20: 24
                      +3
                      Quote: JS20
                      But also to compare the level of technology of the USSR with these countries in 1941. somehow even frivolously.

                      But the specialists of these countries, including the United States, Italy, Japan, while they thought that such a comparison is even a very serious matter. So that you with your modern opinion are in the minority.
                  2. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 08: 56
                    +1
                    Russia's industrial backwardness from leading European countries has predetermined a permanent lag
                    Science in the Republic of Ingushetia had a very high degree of development, we can see this by recalling a considerable number of inventors who settled in the West after the civilian one. There were huge modern diversified enterprises - Putilovsky, Izhevsky, Russo-Balt, Ivanovo manufactories, shipyards ...
                    The pace of development was high.
                    So what if the aircraft engines were licensed. They were like that under Stalin. During the Second World War. And that’s all. And were not the most modern
                    The question is different. RI fought not alone. The largest empires of the world, British and French, and subsequently the USA, fought on the side of Russia.
                    Therefore, on the Eastern Front was only part of the German army
                    And as a result, only part of the German aircraft. The same thing happened in the field of aviation in the Second World War. On the Eastern Front
                    4000 Luftwaffe fighter pilots, and in the West 12000

                    So compare the production of aircraft in Germany with the total production of England, France, Russia and the United States.
                    1. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 13: 45
                      +3
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      Science in RI had a very high degree of development

                      You are talking about industry, and you are trying to translate the conversation into science, which in the Republic of Ingushetia had almost no relation to industry.

                      The trouble is that Russian science at the beginning of the 20th century. remained a desk science of the 19th century, and all its achievements did not reach practical application.
                      Mendeleev and Butlerov were in Russia, and the most powerful chemical industry in the world, the Russian one at the level of technology and many times greater in volume - in Germany.

                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      There were huge modern diversified enterprises - Putilovsky, Izhevsky, Russo-Balt, Ivanovo manufactories, shipyards ...

                      They were "huge" only on a Russian scale and only in extensive parameters: area, number of workers, etc.

                      And in terms of the level and volume of production to the developed countries, these "huge" enterprises were like the moon on all fours.

                      Russo-Balt for 7 years of operation produced 490 sold cars and 300 illiquid sets of spare parts.
                      Before PMV, Fiat produced more in a month, Ford in less than a week.

                      Russian shipyards in time and cost of work were twice as superior to their foreign counterparts in developed countries, but in terms of quantity and quality of products they were hopelessly behind even Japan, and there was nothing to compare with England, Germany, the USA.

                      And so it was in everything.
                    2. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 13: 50
                      +5
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      The pace of development was high.

                      The lower the starting level, the higher the pace of development.
                      But at the same time, many developing countries, for example, Japan, had at the same moment the pace of development much higher than Russian.
                      Of the developed countries, the United States had higher rates of development.
                      At lower rates, the absolute growth rates of production were higher in Germany and England than in Russia.

                      By production per capita, tsarist Russia is in the thirtieth ranks.
                      And if you remember not only about the volumes, but also about the quality of products, labor productivity, the level of technology - then we find a deep and growing backwardness of Tsarist Russia from the beginning of the 20th century until its death.

                      That's the whole price of the bakery myth of the rapid industrial development of Russia before the WWII.
                    3. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 14: 01
                      +4
                      Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                      So what if the aircraft engines were licensed. They were like that under Stalin.

                      1. You are very off topic, or you knowingly lie.
                      Soviet engines had foreign prototypes - yes.
                      But they were greatly improved in comparison with prototypes.
                      2. And most importantly, the USSR had its own production of aircraft engines, which tsarist Russia practically did not have.

                      Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                      So compare the production of aircraft in Germany with the total production of England, France, Russia and the United States.

                      Why not compare?
                      In France, aircraft production during the WWII reached 68 thousand, in England 58 thousand, in Germany 48,5 thousand, even in Italy 20 thousand, in the USA only 15 thousand - but this is due to the United States not participating in the European War until almost its very end.

                      And in Russia - 4,7 thousand with stretch marks, considering non-serial, experimental, unfinished, flightless and generally any trash that claims to be an airplane.

                      At the same time, in France, an average of 5 aircraft engines were produced per aircraft, in Russia there were several times less motors than aircraft, counting the screwdriver assembly of ready-made kits. "Original" production, i.e. again imitations of foreign models, there were about 1 copies (!).

                      More questions? laughing
                      1. Gerard Roussillon
                        Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 18: 11
                        +1
                        Soviet engines had foreign prototypes - yes.
                        But they were greatly improved in comparison with prototypes.

                        NU finalized, and so what? The engines were still old. You know how Zhiguli boosted engines - that's the same
                        2. And most importantly, the USSR had its own production of aircraft engines, which tsarist Russia has almost no

                        Had. But RI had allies. In total, the overall level of production was many times higher. And the allies fought from the very beginning.
                        The USSR began the warriors alone.
                        And most importantly, poor pilot training
                        In France, aircraft production during the WWII reached 68 thousand, in England 58 thousand, in Germany 48,5 thousand, even in Italy 20 thousand, in the USA only 15 thousand - but this is due to the United States not participating in the European War until almost its very end.
                        And in Russia - 4,7 thousand with stretch marks, considering non-serial,

                        So count. 166 against 48 German.
                        Allied planes fought against the Germans. Did the Germans have the opportunity to transfer aircraft to the Eastern Front?
                    4. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 14: 03
                      +4
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      The largest empires of the world, British and French, and subsequently the USA, fought on the side of Russia.

                      This is Russia who fought for the British and French, they fed them interest on loans with Russian blood, and ran errands, and they didn’t pay for it.
                      1. Gerard Roussillon
                        Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 18: 16
                        +1
                        , giving Russian blood interest on loans,
                        This war was called the Patriotic War. We defended the homeland from the Germans
                        About interest.
                        Here our power around the world rushes, begs for loans. Loans - it means the economy is working. Stalin did not take loans - squeezing money out of the people
                2. 34 region
                  34 region 14 January 2017 15: 38
                  +5
                  13.25. Gerard! Nicholas left the country poor and illiterate. At the royal receptions in the first lines of the guests were foreign names. In the Weimar Republic, workers simply died. But Adolf corrected everything. He put on a brown shirt and there is something to feed the family! After the war, Germany was a showcase and counterweight to the USSR. So no need for a good life in the West. How are they living in Libya today? Which international did Stalin serve? International movements were funded from the Union. Why are the USA and England our allies? Especially the USA?
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 14 January 2017 20: 13
                    +1
                    Quote: Region 34
                    Nicholas left the country poor and illiterate.

                    Really? What does this mean?
                    Quote: Region 34
                    At the royal receptions in the first lines of the guests were foreign names

                    They just didn’t take Russian nicknames for themselves, as later ones were hit.
                    Quote: Region 34
                    After the war, Germany was a showcase and counterweight to the USSR. So no need for a good life in the West.

                    Well, okay, Germany seemed to be feeding, in your opinion. But the USSR has not been around for a quarter of a century, why is Germany still living well? How's your logic?
                    Quote: Region 34
                    How are they living in Libya today?

                    According to Credit Suisse for 2015. about 2,8 times richer than with Russia.
                  2. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 09: 23
                    +1
                    Nikolai left the country poor and illiterate

                    You may know the poets of the Silver Age. Or Odessa writers. Kataev, Ilf, Olesha. .... Mayakovsky and Yesenin. So they all formed as creators and artists under Nicholas. And they wrote their masterpieces of course for the illiterate.
                    The salary of the engine driver was 100 rubles. Not the current, not Brezhnev, but Nikolaev. When chrome boots cost five
                    at the royal receptions in the first lines of the guests were foreign names.

                    On Lenin's gatherings, the surnames were mostly Jewish
                    In the Weimar Republic, workers simply died

                    But we are well aware of the famine in the USSR, the reason for which was the sale of bread, including to Germany, thereby the workers
                    After the war, Germany was a showcase and counterweight to the USSR.
                    What prevented us from becoming a showcase?
                    So no need for a good life in the West

                    But this follows from what?
                    Which international did Stalin serve? International movements funded from the Union

                    To the third. Revolutions and coups were funded by the Union, which was driven by the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, which in turn was subordinate to the leaders of the Comintern. So anyway it was in the 20s
                    Why are the USA and England our allies?

                    In particular, in the fight against Germany. You did not know about this?
                3. JS20
                  JS20 14 January 2017 20: 00
                  +2
                  Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                  and by the 20th year there was already nothing of the kind.

                  Yes, in 1941. In terms of the relative level of technical development, the USSR was significantly lower than Russia in 1913. So much so that there’s nothing even to wail.
                  1. murriou
                    murriou 14 January 2017 22: 52
                    +5
                    Quote: JS20
                    in 1941 In terms of the relative level of technical development, the USSR was significantly lower than Russia in 1913.

                    Sure sure. You, as always * original * laughing

                    In WWI, Russia received from abroad more than 40% of rifles and more than 50% of machine guns, including tame - almost completely foreign, more than 30% of their ammunition.
                    At the same time, the army’s need for machine guns was fulfilled by 12%, and for ammunition — only with supply and consumption rates cut down by an order of magnitude.

                    The USSR provided itself with small arms and ammunition in full.

                    The USSR almost completely provided itself with aviation and armored vehicles. In tsarist Russia, this was a complete paragraph.

                    The USSR in the Second World War was armed with artillery systems of its own design and its own production.
                    Tsarist Russia did only three-inches, and then with an eye on the French. All that is heavier is the construction of Krupp, Schneider and Vickers, all that is lighter - Hotchkiss and Macklin.

                    And so on for any item.
                4. murriou
                  murriou 14 January 2017 22: 40
                  +5
                  Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                  Having accepted the country with a cart, a steamboat, pigeon mail and a balloon, Nicholas II left Russia with a car, a strategic bomber, a radio and a submarine.

                  Sure sure.
                  1. Cars.
                  Less than 1000 cars have been produced in Tsarist Russia in its entire history, even if we count the screwdriver assembly of the complete sets.

                  In "backward" Italy, which supplied "advanced" Russia, incl. such ready-made kits. more cars were made per month than in tsarist Russia in its entire history. At Ford, or at the Soviet GAZ and ZIS, they made several dozen cars a day - more than in tsarist Russia on average per year.

                  At the same time, tsarist Russia imported cars many times more than it did itself, and about a third of Russo-Balt products rusted in the form of illiquid sets of spare parts - because even at cost they turned out to be more expensive than better foreign analogues.

                  2. The situation with aviation in tsarist Russia was even sadder. than with cars: most of the "Russian" aircraft were of foreign design, almost all, incl. as-if-Russian design, flew on foreign aircraft engines.

                  As for the strategic bomber, which title is attributed to "Ilya Muromets" by the crystal bakery myths, then they are myths. The "Russian" aviation never achieved a single strategically significant result in WWI, and even had no chance of it.
                  Developed powers at the same time produced many times more aircraft, moreover, as a rule, of their own design and on their own units.

                  3. Radios.
                  You can argue about the priorities of Popov and Marconi as much as you like, but the facts are as follows: the overwhelming majority of "Russian" radio stations for the WWI period were bought in England, Germany and France, where they were made using Marconi's technology.

                  4. Submarines. Can you name at least some victorious results of Russian submariners in WWI?
                  I now know that in the Baltic Sea during the WWII there were up to 3-4 English submarines with English crews, which for large warships had performance strictly equal to the entire Baltic Fleet, and for transport - many times more.

                  Russian submariners at the same time, in the same place, were distinguished only by rare flooding by idiocy.

                  5. What other achievements of tsarist Russia are you going to advertise to us further? laughing
                  1. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 10: 25
                    +1
                    Less than 1000 cars have been produced in Tsarist Russia throughout its history

                    Nevertheless, the cars were. Efforts were also made to deploy production. In particular, a plant was purchased for the release of Fiat 15, AMO.
                    or at Soviet GAZ and ZIS, they made dozens of cars a day

                    Is it nothing that 20 years have passed? And the level of industrial development in the Republic of Ingushetia was one of the highest.
                    myths are attributed to "Ilya Muromets", then myths they are myths. "Russian" aviation in WWI has never achieved a single strategically significant result,

                    "Ilya Muromets" was in its characteristics the most real strategic bomber, the Germans built such an aircraft only at the end of the 16th.
                    almost everything, including like-Russian design, flew on foreign aircraft engines.

                    As well as under the Soviets. All "Soviet developments" had Western progenitors, and by the Second World War they never created decent engines. But for RI, aircraft engines were a completely new thing. Aviation, as a structure with practical application, appeared 5 years before the First World War.
                    Developed powers at the same time produced many times more

                    The developed powers themselves fought with the Germans. Russia faced only part of the German war machine. The lack of technical equipment was offset by diplomatic success in choosing allies.
                    the vast majority of "Russian" radio stations for the WWII period were purchased in England, Germany and France,

                    BUT they were. Again, a new thing.
                    What the USSR did not interestingly put on the bulk of tanks and aircraft walkie-talkies. From the tank it was necessary to wave a flag. Planes had to swing their wings. Walkie-talkies appeared already during the war.
                    There were no batteries. They were taken from America by wagons, but half a century has passed since the first transmitter appeared
                    I now know that in the Baltic during the WWII there were up to 3-4 English submarines with English crews, which for large warships had performance strictly equal to the entire Baltic Fleet,

                    Truth? Underwater war is a probabilistic thing, lucky, no luck. I now know how a German submarine flooded 3 English cruisers. The British thought it was landmines. One of the first attacks.
                    The Baltic is an indoor pool, it's hard to turn around here. But such losses as during the Tallinn crossing, more than during Tsushima, were definitely not. And what victories did our opponents have? The Germans stood in the bases throughout the war. Because they were blocked by the British. As you can see, the advantage of the German fleet over the Russian one, no matter how many modern ships they build, did not matter
                    1. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 14: 14
                      +4
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      Nevertheless, the cars were.

                      They were even in Ethiopia then. laughing
                      And the main transport in tsarist Russia was horse-drawn, river and railway.

                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      The level of industrial development in the Republic of Ingushetia was one of the highest.

                      Thank you for having fun. laughing Try to justify? lol

                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      Efforts were also made to deploy production.

                      Thoughts, plans and fantasies are funny, but the king didn’t get to the point of real affairs.
                      1. Gerard Roussillon
                        Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 17: 19
                        0
                        but the king didn’t get to real business.

                        So is AMO not considered? The Bolsheviks, by the way, only by the 30th thought about trucks and before that they bought from the bourgeoisie

                        And the main transport in tsarist Russia was horse-drawn, river and railway.
                        So railway for industry is the main one. Built unlike the Soviets. Throughout Siberia and Central Asia
                    2. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 14: 16
                      +3
                      Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
                      "Ilya Muromets" was in its characteristics the most real strategic bomber, the Germans built such an aircraft only at the end of the 16th.

                      Nonsense.
                      1. First we decide what we call a strategic bomber.
                      Full-fledged strategic bombers appeared only before WWII itself in the United States, but there were at least attempts in WWII - the German Gott raids on London, the British return visits by the Handley Page, French bombers with small bomb loads. but with a high ceiling and the ability to fly at night, which made it possible for them to carry the cargo to the target and return without loss.

                      The Russian aviators were unable to accomplish anything of the kind during the entire war.

                      2. The Germans in 1916, even some medium (!) Bombers already carried 1500 kg of bombs, three times more than mine.
                      Heavy bombs carried 2500 kg of bombs - five times from "Muromets", surpassing it also in speed and altitude.
                      That is, in 1916. "IM" was already hopelessly lagging behind analogues in all developed countries.

                      He lagged behind Kaproni already in 1914: for a month - with the start of mass production, and also significantly lagged behind in speed and altitude at close bomb load.
                      1. Gerard Roussillon
                        Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 17: 42
                        0
                        The Germans in 1916 even some medium

                        By the 16th year, the war is already 2 years in full swing, a good spoon for dinner
                        In the 14th year in the world! there were no such cars as Ilya Muromets. They didn’t understand which way aviation would go, the pilots fired into each other from Nagans. With this we must compare.
                        The Soviet Union did not create modern aircraft engines, which means that the aircraft had insufficient speed, so that they could somehow lift it from Jacob's armament, defense
                    3. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 14: 25
                      +3
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      The lack of technical equipment was offset by diplomatic success in choosing allies.

                      The role of the six under the Entente is, of course, a huge diplomatic success lol laughing

                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      Underwater war is a probabilistic thing, lucky, no luck.

                      Suvorov used to say: since luck, two luck, have mercy on God, and skill must be!

                      You started talking about probability theory; how familiar are you with it? Have you heard about the law of large numbers? laughing

                      Why did the Russian submariners for ALL WWII not succeed at all, only distinguished themselves by self-flooding, and their colleagues from developed countries scored dozens of victories? lol

                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      The Baltic is an indoor pool, it's hard to turn around here.

                      Something always hinders a bad dancer laughing
                      And why did the British submariners in the same WWI in the same Baltic Sea turn around very well? lol

                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      As you can see, the advantage of the German fleet over the Russian one, no matter how many modern ships they build, did not matter

                      Yes. Because the Germans did not build their fleet against the Russians in the Baltic puddle, but against the British in the open sea. They were not going to exchange for such a trifle.

                      And before the Battle of Jutland, their forces in the Baltic were mainly occupied by fencing off, just in case, from possible attacks from the Russian side - which were not there. laughing
                      1. Gerard Roussillon
                        Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 18: 20
                        0
                        Yes. Because the Germans did not build their fleet against the Russians in the Baltic puddle, but against the British in the open sea. They were not going to exchange for such a trifle.

                        What are you saying? It means that the German fleet was constrained by the British, you acknowledge. And the fact that German aviation was grinded by the French in the same way you don’t want to admit.
                        The Germans had 48 thousand for the whole war. And at the same time, for example, in the summer of the 17th, they had 3000 aircraft on all fronts. And Russia has 1000 cars. The king skillfully chose allies.
                        But Stalin and the Germans almost single hacked. Well, what's the point in thousands of produced tanks and planes if they soon turn into burnt trash.
                      2. Gerard Roussillon
                        Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 20: 21
                        0
                        And why did the British submariners in the same WWI in the same Baltic Sea turn around very well?

                        The allies helped us, fought for us, what's wrong with that?
                        BTW
                        For the entire 44th year, Soviet submariners carried out only 2 attacks, 7 submarines were lost
                    4. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 14: 26
                      +3
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      The Germans stood in bases throughout the war. Because they were blocked by the British.

                      As always, the real story for the bakers is strictly classified. Including the greatest naval battle of the WWI laughing
                    5. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 16: 12
                      +1
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      In particular, a plant was purchased for the release of Fiat 15, AMO.

                      All Soviet car factories of the initial period were purchased or laid down by construction under the tsar.
                      1. murriou
                        murriou 16 January 2017 00: 28
                        +4
                        Quote: JS20
                        All Soviet car factories of the initial period were purchased or laid down by construction under the tsar.

                        Your enchanting ravings are funny, you try, try. I am waiting for an alternative purchase history under the king of GAZ, ChTZ and STZ laughing
              2. JS20
                JS20 14 January 2017 19: 58
                +2
                Quote: cap
                Having accepted Russia with a plow, he left it with an atomic bomb.

                1. He did not accept Russia with a plow.
                2. He did not leave her with the atomic bomb.
                All of you somehow past.
                By the way, for 26 years of his reign, he could somehow prove himself on the positive side. But alas.
                Quote: cap
                on the subconscious, he derived his formula for the existence of the state

                His state was doomed without 2MB in 1953. would fall apart. Like in 1991
                Quote: cap
                In the case of Stalin, the word of personality can be safely written with a capital letter.

                Then write about Hitler in the same way. And what, your idols not far from each other left.
                1. murriou
                  murriou 14 January 2017 22: 53
                  +6
                  Quote: JS20

                  1. He did not accept Russia with a plow.
                  2. He did not leave her with the atomic bomb.

                  How do you confirm? Help from your attending psychiatrist, or is there something more convincing? laughing
          2. Gerard Roussillon
            Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 13: 11
            +1
            , supplied the party of the Bolsheviks, including open robbery, and as a Bolshevik saw his task in the prosperity of the country and the welfare of the people he served
            But he did not serve the people and the International during the period described, then it was a question of a world revolution.
            Even in his most famous appeal to his brothers and sisters, Stalin did not name the United States and Great Britain as his allies in the fight against Hitlerism, but expressed confidence in the solidarity of the world proletariat, including the German, with the struggle of the Soviet people. This is a clear evidence of a misunderstanding of the current political processes in the world.
            1. cap
              cap 14 January 2017 13: 29
              +4
              Quote: Gerard Roussillon
              This is a clear evidence of a misunderstanding of the current political processes in the world.


              He understood, did not understand, but won the war against the country, and he defeated Hitler. Whether we want it or not. It's time for us to stop the discussion, let's re-read the story. And we leave the conclusions to ourselves.
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 13: 59
                +1
                He understood, did not understand, but won the war against the country, and he defeated Hitler.

                You got a typo here according to Freud.
                Stalin waged two wars. One against Hitler. The other is against his country. The brutal terror managed to flood the Nazis with piles of weapons, streams of bombs and shells that sharpened and forged 16 hours a day, exhausted hard workers. How did we get into this situation? Who put us in this position? The answer is obvious.
                1. cap
                  cap 14 January 2017 14: 12
                  +4
                  Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                  The brutal terror managed to flood the Nazis with piles of weapons, streams of bombs and shells that sharpened and forged 16 hours a day, exhausted hard workers. How did we get into this situation? Who put us in this position? The answer is obvious.


                  Obviously the Fuhrer was late with the Hitler Youth. The answer is obvious. A gas canister is awkward. hi And indeed what it is about. Winners are not judged.
                  Perhaps this is the last thing I will write today, for you. hi
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 14 January 2017 20: 22
                    +2
                    Quote: cap
                    Winners are not judged.

                    Why is this? Happens and is judged.
                2. Uncle Murzik
                  Uncle Murzik 14 January 2017 15: 13
                  +5
                  Gerard of Roussillon apparently does not bother you that the USSR fought a war with almost all of Europe and until 1944 almost alone! lol
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 14 January 2017 20: 30
                    +2
                    Quote: Uncle Murzik
                    that the USSR fought a war with almost all of Europe and until 1944 almost alone!

                    Amazing nonsense.
                    Alone, the USSR against Germany, Italy and a handful of their minor allies extended only until 24.09.1941. Those. 95 days. Further, the USSR, as an independent and independent unit on the world stage, ceased to exist, because joined WW2 on the side of the Anglo-Saxons. About which he signed in the Atlantic Charter.
                    Therefore, starting from 24.09.1941. tales about "alone" are completely inappropriate. Each had a role to play in this "coalition". Someone broke the ridges, and someone shared the fruits of victory. Who subscribed to what.
                    1. murriou
                      murriou 14 January 2017 22: 04
                      +4
                      Carbine or how are you there, you decided once again to amuse the people and again prove your personal mental inadequacy? So this is already no secret to anyone. And to prove something else to you with such statements is definitely not fate laughing
                    2. Uncle Murzik
                      Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 56
                      +5
                      JS20 is especially gifted for you! lol It seems that the losses of Germany and its allies in both world wars, including and broken down by the main fronts - Western and Eastern. But the losses do not always reflect the true picture of the intensity of the fighting, the tension of the nation in one direction or another, and most importantly, the dangers and “values” of the opponents. For example, a significant portion of the prisoners captured by the Western Allies in April-May 1945 represented our legitimate prey.
                      Therefore, I decided to figure out - and what forces was Germany (and its allies) forced to exert in the West and East during these wars? World War II:
                      Eastern front:
                      7500 German division months and 1000 division months of the allies of Germany (Finland, Romania, Italy, Hungary, etc., except the first all with a reduction factor of 1/2), TOTAL: 8500 division months against Russia
                      Western Front (including Norway-1940, Greece and Crete-1941, East and North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the Western Front - the first and second):
                      1350 German division months (including 1150 until June 1941) and 150 Italian division months (with a coefficient of 1/2), TOTAL: 1500 division months against the West (including 1250 until June 1941 )
                      TOTAL Germany and its allies set up 10000 division months (8750 - after June 1941), incl. 85% - against Russia. Separately in Germany - only 8850 German division months (8650 after June 1941), including almost 85% against Russia.
                      Thus, in 1941-45, Russia carried out the overwhelming part of the load on the land front, by an ORDER exceeding its relative load in 1914-17 ...
                      Even if you add the Pacific War, it turns out that the main part of the Japanese army was involved in China (including the Kwantung Army), a relatively small part of the ground forces opposed the West, mainly in transient operations (except Burma) and hardly the general the number of Japanese division months set against the West can be estimated by many more than 500 ...
                      In the 2nd MV, aviation began to play a significantly greater role, it is obvious that its ratio along the fronts will be significantly different - but this is a separate topic (especially with regard to anti-aircraft artillery). At the same time, the forces of the surface fleet of Germany, in the 1st MV, were involved almost exclusively against the West (except for episodic operations in the Baltic in 1915 and 1917, as well as the breakthrough of "Goeben" into the Black Sea, whose influence goes beyond the mechanical calculation correlation of forces), in the 2nd MV they were forced to act (including simply by the presence) with the main forces against the Northern convoys and the coastal flanks of Russian troops in the Baltic. There was not much difference in the distribution of submarine forces - again "Battle for the Atlantic", with the exception of the factor of the Northern convoys.
                      What is the conclusion? But it is very simple - the supposedly rapidly developing and advanced Russian empire was not able to compete on an equal footing with Germany, while Russia, in the form of the USSR, passed the test, defeated it (albeit with huge losses - human and material), and with this the distribution of German forces (we are talking here exclusively about ground operations!), which can be said of the Russian-German war of 1941-45 (WWII) with insignificant influence on operations on other fronts.
                      Complaint More ...
                3. 34 region
                  34 region 14 January 2017 15: 41
                  +3
                  13.59. Gerard! It was necessary as the countries of Europe, to hand over the country to Hitler? There is no need to propagate fascism. How did they work in concentration camps, how many died, how many burned?
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 14 January 2017 20: 31
                    +2
                    Quote: Region 34
                    How did they work in concentration camps, how many died, how many burned?

                    Are you talking about the Gulag?
                4. JS20
                  JS20 14 January 2017 20: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                  who in the rear sharpened and forged 16 hours a day, exhausted hard workers.

                  And also, if you scatter all the food supplied under Lend-Lease, then the Americans fed 11 million people from the first day of the war until September 1945 according to not the lowest Soviet standards. More than 11 million in the Red Army in the war was not. Therefore, if it were not for the American grub of the USSR back in the first winter of 1941-42. would bend over from hunger.
                  Do you think that food was simply not delivered to Leningrad? Then read about Arkhangelsk at the end of 1941. The internet has Parshinsky's diaries.
                  1. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 10: 37
                    0
                    Do you think that food was simply not delivered to Leningrad?

                    I don’t think Ladoga is neither a gorge nor a tunnel. This is an ice field through which at least 10 winter roads can be laid, and carry as much as you want
                5. murriou
                  murriou 14 January 2017 22: 05
                  +4
                  Yes, yes, yes, tell us again a fairy tale about a people who, contrary to their government, create advanced industry and win wars laughing
              2. JS20
                JS20 14 January 2017 20: 16
                +2
                Quote: cap
                and Hitler he defeated

                Who has won? Dzhugashvili? And who else? All Martians put together?
                Do you generally know that what happened for the USSR on September 24.09.1941, XNUMX?
                1. murriou
                  murriou 14 January 2017 22: 01
                  +6
                  Quote: JS20
                  Do you generally know that what happened for the USSR on September 24.09.1941, XNUMX?

                  * sighing heavily * patient, you jump while continuing to ignore the evidence of the doctors.
                  We know that you, Carbine-Zeus-rjxtufh-shell-JS20, etc., are obsessed with the over-significance of Lend-Lease for the USSR, and you consider the decision to make Lend-Lease deliveries timed to coincide with world and our history. to this no longer remarkable date.

                  We know that, due to your ignorance and * alternative giftedness *, you are not aware of the significant time difference between signing pieces of paper about this decision - and the beginning of its real implementation.

                  We know that you, due to the same problems of your mental health and intellectual development, have a very inadequate idea about the scale of these supplies.

                  And we also know that your delusional fantasies about real history, and other real knowledge, have a veryooooo distant relationship laughing

                  What else should we know? lol
                  1. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 10: 44
                    0
                    obsessed with the over-significance of Lend-Lease for the USSR,

                    Indeed, what was the significance of gasoline? No gas and the number of aircraft produced does not matter
                    Or, for example, a tank army without motorized infantry at students without armored personnel carriers, without mechanized artillery. Such compounds were defeated in the 41st to the nines.
                    1. murriou
                      murriou 15 January 2017 14: 28
                      +4
                      Own production of gasoline in the USSR is also deeply classified for you, like the course of the Second World War. I'm sorry, as always crying
                      1. Gerard Roussillon
                        Gerard Roussillon 16 January 2017 20: 27
                        0
                        Own production of gasoline in the USSR is also deeply classified for you, like the course of the Second World War.

                        Oil production and gasoline production are two different processes.
                        Germany, having no deposits, produced more gasoline than the USSR. Zakhar, nee Autokar, had an engine in which they reduced the degree of compression. Guess why
                    2. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 16: 18
                      +1
                      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
                      Indeed, what was the significance of gasoline?

                      Yes, that's right.
                      In the USSR by the summer of 1941 made a thuja pile of planes, tanks, guns, rifles and other things.
                      But they forgot (or rather, postponed it for later) about gasoline and diesel fuel. For three-inch guns (and anti-aircraft guns) before 1941. they didn’t fire armor-piercing shells, and forty-five, as it suddenly turned out, was weak against German tanks. And so, in everything, to the extent that almost the entire war was fed by the US Red Army.
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 19: 59
                        +4
                        and forty-five are weak and t-34 and kv! not tired of verbal diarrhea! lol
            2. Monarchist
              Monarchist 14 January 2017 15: 24
              +2
              Gerard, in my opinion Stalin 1941 showed his ingenuity: not all of his associates were ready to forget the ravings of the world revolution, so he said so.
              1. JS20
                JS20 14 January 2017 20: 32
                +2
                Quote: Monarchist
                I think Stalin 1941 showed his resourcefulness

                This, and he saved himself and his power, and even strengthened it. The question is, what has this become a country for?
          3. Raf01
            Raf01 14 January 2017 14: 40
            +2
            Have you been to Cuba? God forbid such prosperity. It’s still warm there ...
            1. cap
              cap 14 January 2017 16: 28
              +5
              Quote: Raf01
              Have you been to Cuba? God forbid such prosperity. It’s still warm there ...


              My classmates have been to Cuba. Impressions are beautiful. God forbid such predictors of theorists like you. And you seem to have never been beyond your region (canton). Cuba has been and will be the embodiment of FREEDOM (Libertad o Muerte). This is forever. I have the honor soldier
              1. Blackmokona
                Blackmokona 14 January 2017 16: 40
                +3
                The embodiment of Freedom from which they flee, as they do not let go. laughing
                1. cap
                  cap 14 January 2017 16: 58
                  +2
                  Quote: BlackMokona
                  The embodiment of Freedom from which they flee, as they do not let go. laughing


                  Link to an official document. hi
                  1. Blackmokona
                    Blackmokona 14 January 2017 17: 11
                    +1
                    In Cuba, everything is bad with the Internet, so finding local documents is difficult. But good, I learned that they canceled exit visas. This is a movement towards true freedom. And not in the one to which they chained.
                    http://www.1tv.ru/news/2013/01/15/75004-vlasti_ku
                    by_reshili_podnyat_zheleznyy_zanaves_kotoryy_polv
                    eka_otdelyal_eyo_ot_ostalnogo_mira

                    Exit visas for citizens of the country were canceled there. Now, for traveling abroad, residents of Liberty Island only need a foreign visa, an air ticket and a passport. Behind them, huge lines are already lining up for the offices of the immigration service. The Cubans are not even embarrassed by the fact that the cost of preparing the coveted document - about 100 US dollars - is 5 times the size of the average salary. True, for some categories of citizens restrictions still remain: these are high-ranking officials, military personnel and athletes.
              2. teder
                teder 14 January 2017 19: 46
                +3
                Quote: Raf01
                Have you been to Cuba? God forbid such prosperity. It’s still warm there ...

                Quote: cap
                My classmates have been to Cuba. Impressions are wonderful.

                What are your impressions?
                I have the same beautiful impression.
                Everything costs a penny, they carry you on hand, local internationalists for $ 20 all night will explain to you the moral code of the builders of communism,
                And the fact that there is a universal level, a poor people, in shops for Cubans as in the general store of the late 80s, prostitution, and in general the country resembles what was before the collapse of the union --- You probably remember how foreigners themselves were kings in the USSR in the late 80s did you feel?
                Therefore, your friends are right - they were talking about their impressions, and not about the life of the Cubans.
              3. JS20
                JS20 14 January 2017 20: 35
                +2
                Quote: cap
                My classmates have been to Cuba. Impressions are wonderful.

                Poor your classmates. Are they in themselves?
                Quote: cap
                Cuba has been and will be the embodiment of FREEDOM

                Calling FREE Cuba is already too much. The usual socialist UG. Without the slightest sign of freedom.
                Quote: cap
                I have the honor

                I doubt it.
              4. teder
                teder 14 January 2017 20: 40
                +3
                Quote: cap
                Cuba was and will be the embodiment of FREEDOM (Libertad o Muerte). This is forever.

                Well, if you think that the personification of freedom is not the ability of a simple citizen to receive a foreign passport.
                We have different ideas about freedom.
                And if you write that it is forever - unhappy Cubans.
                The truth in my experience is not forever.
                Not long left.
              5. Raf01
                Raf01 14 January 2017 21: 23
                +1
                I didn’t predict anything ... Well, all right ... What did you like? Fidel did not create the sea, sand and sun. There is nothing else there. And the Cubans have been around for 50 years with absolutely bare backside .... they live. Freedom? From what?)))))) From prison and money, probably ... For you, the DPRK film company made a film about the life of ordinary Americans in the United States. Look, you will like it, they show how imperialists oppress ordinary people.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v83wr9NVTl4
                Good luck to you!
                1. teder
                  teder 14 January 2017 21: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: Raf01
                  Look, you will like it, they show how imperialists oppress ordinary people.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v83wr9NVTl4

                  I have better
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 15 January 2017 01: 09
                    +1
                    Quote: teder
                    I have better

                    That is also not bad.
                    People in the USSR lived in about the same "real world". And in about the same "real world" the "witnesses of socialism" live now.
                  2. AllXVahhaB
                    AllXVahhaB 15 January 2017 09: 20
                    +2
                    Well, so South Korean propagandists also do not make such fake cuts))) Less trust in the inscriptions on the fences ...
                  3. Gerard Roussillon
                    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 11: 16
                    0
                    I have better

                    Goebbels is resting
          4. Stanislas
            Stanislas 14 January 2017 17: 30
            +1
            Quote: cap
            Stalin, for all his ambiguity, supplied the party of the Bolsheviks, including open robbery, and as a Bolshevik he saw his task in the prosperity of the country and the welfare of the people he served. This was the meaning of his life.
            There are many robbers who find no sense in serving the country and society. The Bolsheviks did not see it as their task to make the country prosperous. You yourself have "dropped" the meaning somewhere. The Bolsheviks saw a prosperous new world, but not a country in which they were going to ignite a world fire. These are your meanings about a repentant robber who was lucky with the Bolsheviks. I have a different version. Stalin carried the idea of ​​serving his neighbors and society from the seminary. Having disbelieved in God, he found it among the Bolsheviks, disbelieving in Marx (whose cult had developed in Russia not without the help of Ilyich) and the Bolsheviks, continued this idea of ​​serving society at the highest post in the state, I suppose, not seeing a successor, but hoping for the people, over whom he exalted and served as a soldier. An example could be the idea of ​​an Orthodox tsar. And someone stuck the nickname "father of nations" on him.
            1. JS20
              JS20 14 January 2017 20: 44
              +1
              Quote: Stanislav
              Stalin carried the idea of ​​serving his neighbors and society from the seminary.

              Already funny.
              Quote: Stanislav
              he found it from the Bolsheviks, disbelieving in Marx

              Yes, the cult, or rather, the full-scale pseudo-religion "Marxism-Leninism" was invented, developed in detail and introduced in the USSR by the former seminarian Dzhugashvili. He also called the kingdom of such a pseudo-religious society based on "Marskism-Leninism" on the scale of the state "socialism."
              The only trouble lies elsewhere, "socialism" had nothing to do with "serving neighbors and society".
              Quote: Stanislav
              but hoping for a people over whom he exalted and served as a soldier

              Keep joking? I appreciated. It’s ridiculous.
              Quote: Stanislav
              A model could be the idea of ​​the Orthodox Tsar.

              I have already heard this "idea" somewhere. Probably in the royal hymn.
              But this is nonsense. He was not king, he was the High Priest. Despite the fact that the state was built on a pseudo-religious basis, i.e. was not secular. This is somewhat different, this is a much higher level of power. Almost a god. Bolshevik.
              1. Stanislas
                Stanislas 14 January 2017 20: 57
                +2
                Quote: JS20
                Already funny.
                Frequent laughter
                Quote: JS20
                the full-scale pseudo-religion "Marxism-Leninism" was invented, developed in detail and introduced in the USSR by the former seminarian Dzhugashvili
                But wasn’t it full-blown before?
                Quote: JS20
                Keep joking? I appreciated. It’s ridiculous.
                Again?
                Quote: JS20
                I have already heard this "idea" somewhere. Probably in the royal hymn
                .Stalin knew her better in a seminary. So you can still laugh.
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 01: 10
                  0
                  Quote: Stanislav
                  But wasn’t it full-blown before?

                  Did not have. No.
                  1. Stanislas
                    Stanislas 15 January 2017 14: 51
                    +2
                    Quote: JS20
                    Did not have. No
                    Have you heard about the hierarchy of forms of development of matter? According to Lenin, it develops due to its inherent internal contradictions from nebula to ... You know the highest form? This is not even a person, since all people are different. The party of a historically progressive class is the highest form of social matter, and the leader of such a party is the highest form of organization of the individual. It's like a living god. So the cult of personality is immanent to Marx's teaching - "militant materialism."
                    1. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 18: 36
                      +1
                      Quote: Stanislav
                      The party of the historically progressive class is the highest form of social matter.

                      Oh what are you. In those days, such nonsense were written cars.
                      Quote: Stanislav
                      and the leader of such a party is the highest form of personal organization. It's like a living god. So the personality cult is immanent in Marx's doctrine - "militant materialism."

                      I don’t know what about the ridiculous and obviously inadequate Marx, but the “leader” under “socialism” is by no means an analogue of God. The late Ulyanov (together with the same Marx) was appointed an analogue of God under "socialism". Those. former "founding leader". Which, by the way, was a complete lie, Ulyanov had nothing to do with "socialism". He didn't even know the term.
                      But Dzhugashvili with this pantheon of pagan idols was just something like the High Priest. Because power in the USSR was not secular in nature and he simply could not be a leader by definition.
                      However, we must remember that the USSR was Through the Looking Glass. From this Dzhugashvili everyone called the leader, which was actually incorrect, but in the USSR it was a common occurrence, black is called white.
                      In the same way, other High Priests (Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc.) were periodically called up and down, which was actually incorrect.
                      1. Stanislas
                        Stanislas 16 January 2017 08: 34
                        +2
                        Quote: JS20
                        In the same way, other High Priests were periodically called.
                        "... if you would like to make of these people", so almost everything bend. About the Looking Glass - what's this? Have you re-read bedtime stories? And I lived there a lot and I can argue. Contact a little something.
              2. Stanislas
                Stanislas 14 January 2017 21: 21
                +2
                Quote: JS20
                I have already heard this "idea" somewhere. Probably in the royal hymn.
                And what didn't you like there anymore? "Reign to the death of your enemies" or "for our glory"? Or all together not about Stalin, as seen from your room of laughter? Everything seems to be in place: the death of enemies was glory.
                1. JS20
                  JS20 15 January 2017 01: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: Stanislav
                  And what didn’t you like there anymore?

                  I didn’t like the fact that instead of a normal society, Russia received a "Marxist-Leninist tsar." Or rather, the High Priest at the head of the country.
                  1. Stanislas
                    Stanislas 15 January 2017 15: 51
                    0
                    Quote: JS20
                    High priest at the head of the country.
                    He wrote somewhere about "Self-Developing Matter", which took the place of God in the mythology of militant materialism. The cult of the leader, not the "high priest". Ilyich ascribed omnipotence to Marx not just in relation to individual theories, but as a Teaching, in which matter finally comprehended itself and became capable of organizing a human half-meaning herd into a new world in which new people would live. All these Novy Mir words, from the point of view of the faithful Marxists, should be written with capital letters, but I will refrain. hi
                    By the way, an example: it is the homeland of everyone else, and the USSR is the homeland, for the cradle of communist society.
                    1. JS20
                      JS20 15 January 2017 18: 41
                      0
                      Quote: Stanislav
                      The cult of the leader, not the "high priest".

                      Yes, the High Priest under "socialism" was periodically called the "leader". Which was actually not true, but in Through the Looking Glass it was a common occurrence.
                      Quote: Stanislav
                      The doctrine, in which matter finally comprehended itself and became able to organize a human half-meaning herd into a new world in which new people will live.

                      Yes, ordinary people who did not perceive the new pseudo-religion "Marxism-Leninism" were perceived by the Bolsheviks as a herd. They were repressed, shot, imprisoned, exiled, and God knows what they did to them.
                      1. Uncle Murzik
                        Uncle Murzik 15 January 2017 20: 02
                        +4
                        JS20 shaw again liberal political information lol
                      2. Stanislas
                        Stanislas 16 January 2017 09: 41
                        0
                        Quote: JS20
                        High priest under "socialism"
                        The High Priest usually submits to the High Leader or combines both functions. Stalin denied the role of leader of the world proletariat, pointing to Lenin. Thus, I would make the assumption that he ceased to believe in self-developing matter. He was ready to recognize himself as the father of the peoples over whom he was placed. This was probably consistent with his actual attitude. If you have a child, then parents usually see who is good to their child and who is a threat, and they don’t like the latter much. Stalin really did not like the enemies of the people not at all because, as the liberals write, he was afraid of them. Read about specific cases and understand that there was no one to be afraid of. Only Trotsky, because LDT was the most devout Marxist. And think about the theory of the development of matter and the cult of personality. An orthodox materialist cannot think of himself (his brain) otherwise, this would be illogical.
                      3. JS20
                        JS20 16 January 2017 11: 00
                        +1
                        Quote: Stanislav
                        The High Priest usually submits to the High Leader or combines both functions.

                        This is in a secular society. The society under various forms of "socialism" in the USSR was not secular.
                        Quote: Stanislav
                        He was ready to recognize himself as the father of the peoples over whom he was placed.

                        By whom? Himself and "set", shooting competitors from among the "comrades". And the "father" is good, he destroyed the children by millions. Either he will starve, then the guardsmen will shoot, then he will conduct a "genius war". He had many ways, but the result is the same.
                      4. Stanislas
                        Stanislas 16 January 2017 15: 05
                        +3
                        Quote: JS20
                        By whom? Himself and "set" by shooting competitors from among the "comrades"
                        And you are not up to date with the latest news? Stalin entered into an open theoretical discussion in the party press against Trotsky (Trotsky himself!) and won it. And the party comrades just decided which of them won; they set him up, and they themselves were elected. It turns out that the people, although not all, set Stalin. Well, those who continued to persist afterwards received what they received.
              3. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB 15 January 2017 09: 37
                +4
                Quote: JS20
                The only trouble lies elsewhere, "socialism" had nothing to do with "serving neighbors and society".

                “It is necessary to firmly ensure not the mythical“ rational organization ”of the productive forces, but the continuous growth of the entire social production ... It would be wrong to think that it is possible to achieve a serious cultural growth of the members of society without serious changes in the current state of labor. It is necessary to radically improve housing conditions and raise the real wages of workers and employees (...) by further systematic reduction in prices for consumer goods (...) Only after all these preconditions are met, it will be possible to hope that labor will turn from a heavy burden into pleasure. " J.V. Stalin 1952
                1. Stanislas
                  Stanislas 15 January 2017 16: 47
                  +3
                  Quote: AllXVahhaB
                  “Only after all these preconditions are taken together, it will be possible to hope that labor will turn from a heavy burden into pleasure.” I.V. Stalin 1952
                  "One can hope." The man did not lose hope, he believed in people. He, who was content with very little in everyday life, probably found it difficult to understand why people, having more than he, do not feel the joy of voluntary labor for the good of society, and if you let go of the scourge for a short time, then from laziness and greed, many in animals begin to turn. Maybe he himself was more worried than happy with the results of his work. But with such a leader, there should be results. He did not seek the glory of the pharaohs.
          5. JS20
            JS20 14 January 2017 19: 54
            +2
            Quote: cap
            and his task as a Bolshevik saw in the prosperity of the country and the welfare of the people whom he served

            Who said that nonsense? Did you invent it yourself?
            Quote: cap
            And he proved it to us all, and to the whole world, with his life.

            With his life, he proved to everyone that human meanness and baseness have no boundaries whatsoever.
            Quote: cap
            There will be no more such people. This is a historical fact.

            Do not worry, there will still be a car. Scum and villains on our planet are born with enviable constancy.
            Quote: cap
            There was one more, Fidel Castro

            Well, can Castro be compared with Dzhugashvili in the degree of stubbornness? What are you, Castro compared to Dzhugashvili - a baby.
            Quote: cap
            We will not see such people in our lifetime. I am sure of that.

            Take a look at North. Korea. Another "exceptional person" is still quite alive there. And in some places even healthy.
            1. AllXVahhaB
              AllXVahhaB 15 January 2017 09: 39
              +1
              Quote: JS20
              Who said that nonsense? Did you invent it yourself?

              Again:
              “It is necessary to firmly secure not the mythical“ rational organization ”of the productive forces, but the continuous growth of the entire social production ... It would be wrong to think that it is possible to achieve a serious cultural growth of the members of society without serious changes in the current state of labor. It is necessary to radically improve living conditions and raise the real wages of workers and employees (...) by further systematic reduction in prices for consumer goods (...) Only after all these preconditions are met, taken together, it will be pleasure. " J.V. Stalin 1952.
              Learn the mathematical part ...
              1. Gerard Roussillon
                Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 14: 06
                0
                ) Only after all these preconditions are taken together, it will be possible to hope that labor will turn from a heavy burden into pleasure. ” I.V. Stalin 1952.

                That is, at that time none of these conditions were met. And the work of the Soviet worker was a heavy burden at the end of the Stalin era?
              2. JS20
                JS20 15 January 2017 16: 25
                +1
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                I.V. Stalin 1952.

                To whistle, not to carry bags. And then, did you expect him to write the truth about his goals and objectives?
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                Learn the mathematical part ...

                I know her very well. Unlike you.
                1. murriou
                  murriou 16 January 2017 00: 34
                  +6
                  Quote: JS20
                  I know her very well. Unlike you.

                  Yes, carbine.
                  In this world, no one except you personally knows that
                  - the only purpose of the famous Mauser carbine rifle is to hunt for gophers,
                  - that T-34-76 and T-34-85 are fundamentally different classes of tanks,
                  - that the AK-74 came from the M16, which was a direct descendant of Tommy Gun and one class with him,
                  - and your other personal * original * obsessions laughing
                2. Stanislas
                  Stanislas 16 January 2017 08: 45
                  +2
                  Quote: JS20
                  To whistle, not to carry bags. And then, did you expect him to write the truth about his goals and objectives?
                  It is you, putting yourself in his place, that you would never write the truth, but would whistle to everyone. Everyone thinks about what HE can do. He, like you, probably only whistles (if you let go with a laugh). Seeking the good even in such a person as Stalin seems to you, is also useful because there is the possibility of scrubbing your dirt at least a little.
                  1. JS20
                    JS20 16 January 2017 10: 52
                    +1
                    Quote: Stanislav
                    Seeking the good even in such a person as Stalin seems to you, is also useful because there is the possibility of scrubbing your dirt at least a little.

                    Why didn’t this help you?
                    1. Stanislas
                      Stanislas 16 January 2017 15: 36
                      +2
                      Quote: JS20
                      Why didn’t this help you?
                      Have you known each other before? I don’t think so. If you were familiar, you would definitely not have written this, there is something good in you too: common sense, for example. laughing
                      1. murriou
                        murriou 16 January 2017 17: 08
                        +3
                        Oh. Common sense - in this clinical inadequacy ?! belay
                3. AllXVahhaB
                  AllXVahhaB 16 January 2017 09: 55
                  0
                  Quote: JS20
                  I know her very well. Unlike you.

                  Well, well ... At the same time, they didn’t even hear how Khrushchev cut private land plots from 1 hectare to 6 acres)))
                  Where did you study, dear ???
            2. AllXVahhaB
              AllXVahhaB 15 January 2017 09: 40
              +2
              Quote: JS20
              Scum and villains on our planet are born with enviable constancy.

              So yes ... Obama is not the last (((
            3. AllXVahhaB
              AllXVahhaB 15 January 2017 09: 57
              +2
              Quote: JS20
              Take a look at North. Korea. Another "exceptional person" is still quite alive there. And in some places even healthy.

              And how many over the past 20 years have died due to the fault of the UK and how many due to the fault of the USA? In Iraq alone, about 1 million civilians ... And who is the real monster ???
              1. JS20
                JS20 15 January 2017 16: 26
                +1
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                In Iraq alone, about 1 million civilians ..

                And how many in "North Korea alone"?
                And then, not yet evening.
                By the way, I VERY recommend that you pay attention to Sev. Korea. Here, right, very, very.
      2. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 19: 49
        +1
        Quote: cap
        he called himself a Leninist

        This chatterbox which did not chat. Completely lied to the end.
        Quote: cap
        And as it turned out by the end of his reign

        Doesn't that constant Russian term "rule" bother you at all? Where did the "people's leaders" get the "government"?
        1. Stanislas
          Stanislas 14 January 2017 21: 45
          +4
          Quote: JS20
          This talker
          In the room of laughter, everyone sees his reflections, perstabol.
    2. Gerard Roussillon
      Gerard Roussillon 14 January 2017 13: 31
      +2
      With all due respect to Comrade Stalin, he hardly understood more than Lenin in the "opening"

      Lenin, living in Switzerland, was very far from practice and generally from work. The first steps of the Lenin government indicate a complete misunderstanding of the principles of the functioning of the state machine.
      1. cap
        cap 14 January 2017 14: 15
        +2
        Quote: Gerard Roussillon
        The first steps of the Lenin government indicate a complete misunderstanding of the principles of the functioning of the state machine.


        Yes, he was a German intelligence agent. laughing .According to contemporaries.
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 14 January 2017 15: 18
        +3
        Gerard, as I said, Lenin in 1921 realized that it was urgent to change economic policy
  8. thinker
    thinker 14 January 2017 10: 57
    +1
    Quote: Kotischa
    I will ask a question to which I myself do not know the answer. And what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?

    It can be assumed, as in China
    The newspaper Pravda: NEP-2 sold in China

    https://kprf.ru/international/89722.html
    1. AllXVahhaB
      AllXVahhaB 15 January 2017 10: 07
      +3
      Quote: thinker
      It can be assumed, as in China

      And what is worse under Stalin? In the Stalinist USSR, cooperatives and industrial cooperatives produced nearly 6% of the gross industrial output, with cooperatives and cooperatives producing 40% of furniture, 70% of metal utensils, more than a third of all knitwear, and almost all children's toys. About a hundred design bureaus, 22 experimental laboratories, and even two research institutes worked in the business sector.
      Personal plots that existed in parallel with the collective farms reached 1 hectare.
      It was not considered a sin to strive for everyday well-being.
      1. Gerard Roussillon
        Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 14: 01
        0
        moreover, artels and industrial cooperation produced 40% of furniture, 70% of metal utensils, more than a third of all knitwear, almost all children's toys.
        These percentages, what are they taken from? How much will a third be from nothing?
        How could a collective farmer not having a salary realize his financial dreams?
      2. JS20
        JS20 15 January 2017 14: 32
        +1
        Quote: AllXVahhaB
        About a hundred design bureaus, 22 experimental laboratories, and even two research institutes worked in the business sector.

        You know, you either deliberately distort, or completely do not understand what you are writing.
        Formally, collective farms in the USSR were also the "business sector". In reality, these were ordinary state enterprises.
        So artels in the USSR. Formally, they were NOT state. But in reality, a plan came down to them, they were included in the funding system, their chairman was approved (count, appointed) in the district committee. Those. in fact, these were ordinary state enterprises, they were only called differently.
        Why was this done? I think, for people like you, only contemporaries in the West. So that you can shout at all corners about the "mixed structure of the Soviet economy."
        And then, do not forget about the dominant pseudo-religion in the USSR (Marxism-Leninism). The pseudo-religion for the transition period to communism, and "socialism", as it were, according to this pseudo-religion, demanded a multi-structured economy. So the "classics" wrote. Required, get it. Formally, the complexity was. Which was required. But in fact it was not there.
        Quote: AllXVahhaB
        Personal plots that existed in parallel with the collective farms reached 1 hectare.

        It is interesting to me to know where you saw such personal plots. 1 hectare is 100 acres, if you are not in the know. And also a house. And also the outbuildings. This is how you imagine estates in the USSR?
  9. Gennady.L
    Gennady.L 14 January 2017 14: 29
    +3
    Quote: Gerard of Roussillon
    But what would happen if Lenin lived another 15 years?

    Nowhere did Marxist ideas work. In no country

    China?
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 14 January 2017 14: 50
      +3
      In China, capitalism. winked
      1. JS20
        JS20 14 January 2017 20: 50
        0
        Quote: BlackMokona
        In China, capitalism.

        Goofy! How long has it been? I apparently missed something, since yesterday I haven’t watched the telly, apparently everything has changed in China.
        In China, state capitalism. Those. the last stage of feudalism. Further, either bourgeois revolution and Bonapartism. Or kickback, repression and insanity like the Dzhugashvilevsky. With national specifics. Which is still unlikely, but not entirely impossible.
        Anyway, in the near future something will be there, for a long time China will not be able to balance with such an unstable state.
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 15 January 2017 08: 51
          0
          Since 1978, capitalism has been there. The state’s share in the economy is less than ours. And privatization goes after privatization.
          1. JS20
            JS20 15 January 2017 16: 31
            +1
            Quote: BlackMokona
            Since 1978, capitalism has been there.

            Yeah. And Martian exhibitionism.
            There is nothing like that there. And it cannot be. Due to the state system of China.
            Quote: BlackMokona
            The state’s share in the economy is less than ours.

            1. This is not true.
            2. This is generally not very important.
            Quote: BlackMokona
            And privatization goes after privatization.

            And it does not matter.
            Explore at your leisure what capitalism means.
  10. Gennady.L
    Gennady.L 14 January 2017 14: 40
    +3
    b) in the 1921 year, it was about creating state capitalism not as a complete economic system, but as separate elements admitted to a number of economic areas, in particular, to the system of commodity exchange;

    Is this an order to justify the current system of the oligarchic-KGB system of ownership of fixed assets and means of production? Leave the unfortunate Leader alone.
  11. Monarchist
    Monarchist 14 January 2017 15: 13
    +3
    How not to treat Lenin, but he was a smart man and capable of making the right decisions. The NEP confirms this: at that time 2/3 of the Bolsheviks raved about the myth of the world revolution, and Lenin realized that if the economic policy was not urgently changed, the peasants would simply not easily kill all the Bolsheviks.
    Berezhkov (was Stalin's personal translator) describes how quickly Kiev changed, that he no longer had to see such abundance.
    He knew an old man who lived in Novorossiysk during the NEP as a child and taught letters from advertising signs
  12. Blackmokona
    Blackmokona 14 January 2017 15: 54
    +2
    cap,
    It's not even funny to read you laughing You provoke me to "split up", it will not work. Two counterintelligence services tried. When there were "tasks" It did not work laughing Nick paint so as not to comment in the future. Yes! and correct the country, for example, Romania. hi

    To split Already recorded in the intelligence, but a bad case. bully
    1. cap
      cap 14 January 2017 17: 01
      +2
      Quote: BlackMokona
      cap,
      It's not even funny to read you laughing You provoke me to "split up", it will not work. Two counterintelligence services tried. When there were "tasks" It did not work laughing Nick paint so as not to comment in the future. Yes! and correct the country, for example, Romania. hi

      To split Already recorded in the intelligence, but a bad case. bully


      The case is normal, just swap places.
      1. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 14 January 2017 17: 12
        +1
        Will you sew the case Mr. Chief? Cooperation with the omnipotent intelligence agencies of Romania? winked
        1. cap
          cap 14 January 2017 17: 32
          +2
          Quote: BlackMokona
          Will you sew the case Mr. Chief? Cooperation with the omnipotent intelligence agencies of Romania? winked

          Threads are over laughing
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 14 January 2017 17: 51
            +1
            Then master electronic workflow drinks
  13. Blackmokona
    Blackmokona 14 January 2017 16: 39
    +1
    uncle Murzik,
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    BlackMokona in Russia 23mln have incomes below the subsistence level! Apparently it’s not very good at work!

    It’s good to work, otherwise they would not have income. The problem is corruption, because of which they do not have decent salaries, since the armada of officials eats most of the surplus product
  14. JS20
    JS20 14 January 2017 18: 14
    +2
    Quote: Eugene SPITSYN
    NEP: the experiment began

    Get out, experiment. State capitalism (under the Bolsheviks it was called NEP) under tsarism existed for at least a quarter of a century before the creeping Bolshevik counter-revolutionary coup of 1917-18. And then suddenly - an experiment. Ulyanov returned everything, as it was under Nicholas II. Only he took his place, and the place of the nobles was taken by the Bolsheviks. So much for the "revolution", here for the "revolutionaries".
    1. Odysseus
      Odysseus 14 January 2017 19: 41
      +6
      Ai-ai-ai., Dear rjxtufh, and now JS20. Again, do not listen to your doctor. We have outlined a way to alleviate your condition. slavery.
      And then, well, take pity on the moderators, you already change your third nickname in only 3 months.
      It is clear to me that masochism is one of the symptoms of your illness. The fact that you are sent and banned gives you great pleasure.
      But not all people experience such an acute pity for you like me, and tracking your crazy dancing with changing clothes brings no pleasure to anyone.
      Remember the main thing, to improve your condition you need to forget about Russia and finally plunge into real life. In your life in the West.
      Then comes relief and remission.
      1. murriou
        murriou 14 January 2017 23: 07
        +5
        Quote: Odyssey
        You already change your third nickname in only 3 months.

        Isn't it anymore? I also observe this patient. laughing

        At first he met me as rjxtufh, but the old-timers were already used to him under the nickname Carbine Zeus and something else.

        Then he managed to make people laugh, running into the arena under the nickname shell, but quickly abandoned him. Apparently, fans of his clowning talents like me too overwhelmed him laughing

        Now it’s JS20, but psychiatry textbooks predict the tendency of schizophrenics to punctually maintain their usual course of action, so a quick and plentiful replenishment awaits the nickname collection. lol
        1. Odysseus
          Odysseus 15 January 2017 13: 44
          +4
          Quote: murriou
          Isn't it anymore? I also observe this patient

          Maybe more. I do not really follow his dressing up, the third nickname is only one of those that caught my eye.
          But this is only recently, but in general there were many, very many. I think even he himself does not know how much, because he has been on the site for a long time.
          His crown (besides the ones about the USSR) was always the REV and topics about tanks in the Great Patriotic War. God knows for what reasons he considers himself a major specialist in tanks and large armored ships of the beginning of the century. At one time, not one article on these topics could do without him concert under the next nickname.
          In general, I feel sorry for him, he does not mangle a person in a childish way. Which, incidentally, often happens to Russian "liberals" who do not know how to adapt in the West and who feel like strangers everywhere.
          1. murriou
            murriou 15 January 2017 14: 38
            +3
            Quote: Odyssey
            God knows why he considers himself a major specialist.

            I suspect that in addition to God, these reasons are known to psychiatrists.
            As for his life in the West, so we know about her only from HIS words smile
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 16 January 2017 01: 18
            +5
            Quote: Odyssey
            , the third nickname is only one of those that caught my eye.

            I hesitated to consider his nicknames.
    2. pimen
      pimen 14 January 2017 19: 57
      0
      Quote: JS20
      Quote: Eugene SPITSYN
      NEP: the experiment began

      Get out, experiment. State capitalism (under the Bolsheviks it was called NEP) under tsarism existed for at least a quarter of a century before the creeping Bolshevik counter-revolutionary coup of 1917-18. And then suddenly - an experiment. Ulyanov returned everything, as it was under Nicholas II. Only he took his place, and the place of the nobles was taken by the Bolsheviks. So much for the "revolution", here for the "revolutionaries".

      oh well, it seems, Khrushchev, although he was a personal pensioner, as everyone complained about retirement
      1. JS20
        JS20 15 January 2017 16: 33
        0
        Quote: pimen
        oh well, it seems, Khrushchev, although he was a personal pensioner, as everyone complained about retirement

        He did not complain about retirement, he complained about the salary (not Persek) under "socialism". He compared everything to his turner under tsarism.
        1. Uncle Murzik
          Uncle Murzik 17 January 2017 07: 09
          +2
          JS20 But you can link! Or again verbiage! lol
  15. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 14 January 2017 19: 58
    +5
    Part 1
    Do not overestimate the NEP. Yes, she revived trade and private enterprise, giving additional jobs and at first strengthened the alliance of the working class and the peasantry, but she did not fulfill all the tasks that were entrusted to her. Destroyed industry had to be restored by the proletarian dictatorship on its own and the Soviet state had to industrialize due to accumulations in the public sector. Moreover, the NEP led to a number of crises of 1923, 1924-25, 1928-29, which created a threat to the bond between the proletariat and the peasantry. These crises blew up the NEP system.

    The introduction of the NEP was accompanied by the illusions of a reassessment of personal initiative. It seemed to many that it was only necessary to abandon the methods of war communism - and the initiative would go on its own, and with it private capital hiding in an illegal situation would flow into industry.

    This was supplemented by other illusions that foreign private capital would immediately be eager to take advantage of the opportunities that were opening up in Russia, which seemed huge compared to military communism. But nothing else happened. Only German capital was invested (concessions) in the Soviet economy due to the dire state of its country's economy
    A very accurate assessment of the NEP period was given by the historian Pokrovsky, who cannot be ranked among the Bolshevik scholars - his works were called “Trotskyist prose” at one time. So he wrote in his article “The Soviet Head of Our History” in 1924: “The NEP led to the fact that private capital flowed from illegal speculation into legal trade, especially into retail, with its rapid turnover, but into industry with its relatively slow turnover and the low level of profits, this nurtured by frenzied speculation of the previous period, private capital did not go. "

    For the experiment in the national economy, state production units (trusts) were created that operate according to the laws of the market, i.e. on the principle of maximizing profits. They enjoyed extensive economic independence, right down to the right to independently set prices for part of the product. But such an experiment already in 1923 culminated in a grandiose economic crisis that overwhelmed any kind of inflation of prices for industrial goods and the emergence of so-called “scissors”, which caused sharp discontent among the working people of the city and village, and general stagnation of affairs in economic construction.

    VSNK, faced with a shortage of working capital, demanded that enterprises accelerate the turnover of resources, faster growth of labor productivity compared to wages. But the crisis in the marketing of industrial products gave way to a shortage of goods in 1925. It was a peculiar economic reaction of the market in the field of correlation of prices for agricultural products and factory products.

    The party came to the conclusion that the policy of monopolistically high prices harms not only the buyer (primarily the peasantry) but also the industry itself, which is unacceptable to take profit as an indicator and, after long discussions and struggle with the right opposition, has embarked on improving the well-being of the people not through division Manually recoverable profits, and through lowering retail prices, saturating the market with solid but cheap consumer goods. The party adopted the state control over prices, and already from 1923 a gradual return to a planned economy began. After the restoration of the economy, the party headed for industrialization.
    1. 34 region
      34 region 14 January 2017 21: 11
      +3
      19.58. Green! Well! The recipe for Gaidar, Soros and the IMF has been tested in the case. And we still treble this stillborn child and try to breathe life into it.
  16. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 14 January 2017 20: 01
    +7
    Part 2
    One of the main sources of currency for the purchase of industrial equipment was the export of bread. In 1928, the procurement crisis worsened in the country; plans for the procurement of bread (grain) were not fulfilled. In the cities had to introduce bread cards.

    Small-scale peasant farming has reached an impasse. There was an elemental process of grinding it. The heirs divided the parents' household into two or three or more. If in 1913 there were 16 million peasant farms, then in 1928 it was already 24,6 million. But the smaller the farm, the less it sells its products, they eat almost all of them. The peasants worked with the help of primitive tools on small patches of land. They could barely feed only themselves. For example, if in 1913 21,3 million tons of grain entered the market, in 1926 it was only 10,3 million. Meanwhile, the urban population in 1926 was 1,6 million more than in 1913.

    And to accumulate funds for industrialization, the right-wing opposition proposed developing large kulak and capitalist high-commodity farms, as well as channeling funds for the development of light industry in order to saturate the market with consumer goods, so that the kulaks and the rural bourgeoisie would have an incentive to sell grain and buy goods for the proceeds but that would mean contributing to the development of capitalism in the countryside.

    Moreover, the NEP had a corrupting effect on society, the right deviation began to increase in the party, and the enemies hoped with the help of the NEP to strangle the Soviet state. The kulaks actively resisted the Soviet regime. Under such conditions, of course, accelerated industrialization of the country was not possible. The situation did not allow to wait until significant funds accumulate in light industry. Ten years - no more! Therefore, an urgent necessity prevailed over everything: where to get the money for the construction of the heavy and defense industry? Western countries financed industrialization through robbery of colonies and foreign loans. There were no such sources for the USSR. All that remained was collectivization, which could make it possible to mechanize rural labor, increase the marketability of agriculture, and free up labor on a massive scale. Therefore, it was decided to organize the village and subordinate its economy to the general plan of the national economy.

    Thanks to the accumulated experience of managing and taking into account the objective laws of the development of the national economy, the Bolsheviks felt for a new economic mechanism, which became the driving force of the socialist economy. He focused on reducing the cost of production. During the reforms, a socialist modification of the law of value was discovered, which was formulated by I.V. Stalin in his work "The economic problems of socialism in the USSR." As a result of its action, a specific pricing system emerged, which was called the two-level (two-scale) price system, in which the equipment price did not participate in the pricing.

    Its finest hour fell on the post-war period of 1947 - 1954, when the results of the national economic complex made it possible to annually reduce retail prices for agricultural products and industrial products.

    As a result, by the mid-50s The USSR was already close to the abolition of money and commodity relations. However, the development of the national economy along the socialist path was halted by the Khrushchev transformations and the economic reform of 1963–65.
    1. Gerard Roussillon
      Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 11: 59
      0
      As a result, by the mid-50s The USSR was already close to the abolition of money and commodity relations
      That is, would they switch to cards and rations again?
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 15 January 2017 16: 56
        +6
        To each according to his needs, from each according to his work. But you don’t understand this, you have a blue star.
  17. Gerard Roussillon
    Gerard Roussillon 15 January 2017 13: 56
    0
    uncle Murzik,
    . The Soviet Union fought practically with the whole of Europe, the number of which (with the exception of England allied to us and partisan Serbia that did not surrender to the Germans) was about 400 million people.

    I wonder what was the number of the French army that fought against the USSR, for example? Or the armies of Spain? Who commanded them, armed?
    1. JS20
      JS20 15 January 2017 14: 40
      +1
      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
      What was the number of the French army that fought against the USSR, for example?

      What about the Polish army?
      And the Greek army.
      And the Czech army.
      And the Portuguese army.
      A Swedish army.
      And heaps of any European little things?
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 15 January 2017 17: 08
        +5
        Colleagues, not only armies are at war, but also economic potentials. All the economic potential of Poland, Czechoslovakia and other little things, as you put it, was used against the USSR. The Czechs, for example, made very decent tanks (Skoda plant) and the German army was armed with them. And the human resource of all of Europe was used against the USSR. This is the Spanish "Blue Division" and the Italian ... and in general - look who was in Soviet captivity. There were even more than 10 thousand Jews there.
        1. JS20
          JS20 15 January 2017 18: 04
          0
          Quote: Alexander Green
          The entire economic potential of Poland, Czechoslovakia and other little things, as you put it, was used against the USSR

          I deeply admire such economic monsters of the 40s as Poland and the Czech Republic. However, I dare to remind you that on the side of the USSR was the economic potential of the two leading economies of the then world, the United States and Britain. And also a couple dozen smaller economies, from Canada to Australia.
          Quote: Alexander Green
          And the human resources of all of Europe were involved against the USSR.

          Do not exaggerate. At least not so much.
          Quote: Alexander Green
          This is the Spanish "Blue Division"

          And this is a separate "thanks" to the Dzhugashvili adventure with "volunteer Komsomol members" for Spain. By the way, the Spaniards, unlike the Soviet ones, were still volunteers.
          Quote: Alexander Green
          There even more than 10 thousand Jews turned out to be.

          Why not? Jews fought in the armies, allies of Germany.
          By the way, the French, who lived in Alsace and Lorraine, were considered Germans and were called up to the Wehrmacht. That is why there are so many among prisoners of war.
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 15 January 2017 20: 11
            +5
            Dear, in vain you are ironic, they already wrote to you that you do not know the story well. So I can add: Czechoslovakia and Poland were not the last in the economic potential that attacked the USSR, Germany. Czechoslovakia, for example, was one of the most industrially developed countries, it inherited up to 80% of the entire industry of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, it is known for its developed tank and automotive industr