Military Review

Roscosmos published a report on the causes of the collapse of Progress MS-04

96
The accident of the Progress space truck caused a much larger information surge than the results of the investigation into the causes of the crash. Many media outlets, which so vividly discussed the crash itself, are in fact ignoring the conclusions presented by Roscosmos about what led to the accident.


Meanwhile, the State Corporation for Space Activities (Roscosmos) provides a fairly detailed report on the causes of the collapse of the Progress MS-04 TGC. In this case, the reasons are called "the most likely." Recall the wreck happened last December 1.

Roscosmos published a report on the causes of the collapse of Progress MS-04


We present data from the Roscosmos report distributed by the press service of the state corporation:
As a result of the accident, a non-standard mechanical separation of the third stage of the launch vehicle and the transport cargo ship occurred. Fragments of a space rocket fell in an inaccessible mountain-wooded area approximately 100 km west of Kyzyl (Tyva Republic) without causing material damage to the ground infrastructure. The fragments of the third stage of the PH and THC, which reached the earth's surface, did not pose a danger to the environment and the population.


The emergency commission members established the following: the most likely cause of the accident is the opening of the “O” tank of the third stage of the LV as a result of the elements arising from the destruction of the 11D55 engine due to fire and further destruction of the oxidizer pump. The cause of ignition of the oxidizer pump could be possible ingress of foreign particles into the pump cavity or a possible violation of the 11D55 engine assembly technology (discrepancy between the gaps between the screw and the sleeve; between the floating rings and the impeller, possible imbalance and rotor beating). Defect having a production nature, manifested in flight.

As can be seen, the notorious human factor (when assembling a truck) as the cause of the accident is referred to as “most likely” by the Roscosmos along with the influence of foreign particles.

From the message of "Roskosmos":
In the near future, in accordance with the established procedure, a plan of priority measures will be presented at enterprises and organizations of the rocket and space industry to ensure the safe launch of TGC Progress MS-05.
Photos used:
ultrafreedom.ru
96 comments
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  1. bouncyhunter
    bouncyhunter 11 January 2017 19: 23
    +13
    The same thing sounded in the "preliminary version", which has now become the "most likely"
    1. Monos
      Monos 11 January 2017 19: 40
      +16
      gap mismatch between the screw and the sleeve; between floating rings and impeller, possible imbalance and runout of the rotor


      I did not understand this. Are they there, on 16K20 manually bushing bushings? Delirium, delirium, delirium.
      Here is an example of what modern machines can:
      1. Barakuda
        Barakuda 11 January 2017 19: 51
        +5
        At 16k20 f3s5 wink
        But seriously - the video is cool, but I would see how the same machines grind some sort of special tool or titanium alloy. Of course they can, but the machines are completely different.
        1. Monos
          Monos 11 January 2017 20: 16
          +8
          Quote: Barracuda
          But seriously - the video is cool, but I would see how the same machines grind some sort of special tool or titanium alloy. Of course they can, but the machines are completely different.

          I think the only question is the right choice of equipment and modes.
          1. cniza
            cniza 11 January 2017 21: 43
            +7
            Only he who does nothing is not mistaken, period.
        2. seregatara1969
          seregatara1969 11 January 2017 22: 48
          +1
          titanium is easy to cut
        3. An60
          An60 12 January 2017 14: 35
          0
          16A20 (Ф3С5 and РП55).
      2. ghby
        ghby 11 January 2017 19: 58
        +12
        Quote: Monos
        I did not understand this. Are they there, on 16K20 manually bushing bushings? Delirium, delirium, delirium. Here is an example of the fact that modern machines can:
        to make a beautiful curly fritball machine do not give a damn about the tolerances and overheating of the metal, and make a simple part with the specified minimum tolerances without allowing overheating, as it were, completely different things, and the second is more complicated. The cutter (milling cutter) and the machine itself wear out accordingly affect the quality and size of the products.
        1. Monos
          Monos 11 January 2017 20: 11
          +7
          Your comment is true for handmade. A modern CNC machine weaves without problems and in the right modes. Here:


          Or this:
          1. ghby
            ghby 12 January 2017 09: 41
            +3
            Quote: Monos
            CNC machine weaving catches without problems and in the right modes.

            The essence of my post was not that the CNC machine would not catch the weave in the necessary modes, but that many factors that stupidly do not take into account civilian production affect the quality of the product. By the way, the CNC will catch exactly what it has in the parameters and what it will invest in it in accordance with the flow chart, but what it says is a big big secret for such a small company.

            Quote: seregatara1969
            titanium is easy to cut
            it’s so easy that in our city for the manufacture of titanium bolts for the construction of the subway, we found only one defense factory capable of manufacturing them, who set a good bill that urgently converted the project to steel, as a result, these bolts burst when loaded. But all this is rumored :)
      3. doubovitski
        doubovitski 11 January 2017 22: 46
        +9
        What does the trick picture have to do with it? Do you imagine the design of these glands? What turns does these details make? What are the general requirements for them? Which gaps are good and which are bad? No, right? Then why this demonstration?
        The main thing is that they learn a lesson from the incident and draw the right conclusions. We can only hope here on the couch. And don't fake it.
        1. Monos
          Monos 11 January 2017 23: 06
          +5
          "Good and bad clearances"? Hmm ... what century do you live in? All this has been standardized for a hundred years. In short, it's understandable. It is useless to talk to you. You have nothing to do with metalworking. hi
        2. Michael easily
          Michael easily 12 January 2017 00: 40
          0
          The classic "pilotage" of the investigation - factual material - analysis - conclusions - analysis of the findings - work ...
        3. Bayonet
          Bayonet 12 January 2017 06: 17
          +3
          Quote: doubovitski
          Do you imagine the design of these glands? What turns does these details make?

          Well, for example
          Impressive? And what crazy loads are there fellow
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 12 January 2017 21: 03
            0
            I will not dispute the legitimacy of the fact that the performance of the device pumps kilograms, but I can say that even with such a performance, the axial shift force is observed at the suction of the device. I will not say what parameters it reaches on other devices, but it is tens of tons of traction. Therefore, you can imagine that the designer is faced with the problem of not only increasing the performance of the devices, but also of the issues of not being ripped off at the attachment points. Therefore, to say about the frequency of rotation of the shaft and not to say about its radius, this means to say nothing. For example, we accelerated our turbine to high speeds with a diameter of about 15 centimeters. In this case, the noise was only from the bearings. But our turbine can be accelerated to an order of higher speeds and in diameters also by orders of magnitude higher and without destruction. Therefore, the solution to the problems of the destruction of the rotating parts of the rotor is a key problem for the entire rocket engine. Without our decision, new rocket engines on modern TNAs are futile. And no high-strength materials can solve this problem. It is solved in a completely unusual way for designers to understand.
      4. Titsen
        Titsen 12 January 2017 06: 41
        0
        Quote: Monos
        I did not understand this.


        I did not understand the IMPORTANT: that is, no one is to blame?

        Will it be the same next?

        When will these bureaucratic bureaucrats draw conclusions on the basis of which they will start filming loafers and non-professionals !?

        Such, for example, as divandek Syurdyukov!
        1. Skifotavr
          Skifotavr 12 January 2017 15: 45
          +1
          Quote: Titsen
          Will it be the same next?

          But what about! As one local young amateur of photography of Einstein wrote here earlier, soon everything will fall for you (although it was already falling then). Not there you are looking for reasons. Look for specific shots - even if they are ordinary workers. It would be useful for your special services to dig up their biographies.
      5. Lelek
        Lelek 12 January 2017 09: 14
        +1
        Quote: Monos
        Monos


        The purest "blunder" of state acceptance.
    2. vlad66
      vlad66 11 January 2017 20: 03
      +20
      Many of the media that have so vividly discussed the crash itself actually ignore the conclusions presented by Roskosmos regarding what led to the accident.

      It was they who were not yet in the VO forum wassat Here they would have known both cause and effect and how to do and how not to do, as well as receive instructions in economics, politics and defense. request
      1. 210ox
        210ox 11 January 2017 21: 20
        +2
        Yes, you’re right, there’s a consequence and a reason .. This is VO! The reason is commonplace, our system. People work for pennies, old experienced workers left without preparing a shift .. Young people are easier and more profitable to be office plankton, traders, but it just doesn't get to the machine or sits at the workplace of the installer.
        Quote: vlad66
        Many of the media that have so vividly discussed the crash itself actually ignore the conclusions presented by Roskosmos regarding what led to the accident.

        It was they who were not yet in the VO forum wassat Here they would have known both cause and effect and how to do and how not to do, as well as receive instructions in economics, politics and defense. request
        1. Michael easily
          Michael easily 12 January 2017 00: 54
          0
          If my memory serves me (in a mix of fundamental metaphors) - everyone is responsible for their actions before the Lord God ... And in the current situation, without incl. of all potential resources - + - There is a PREDICTION factor - it is unrealistic to CALCULATE everything - you can’t do without losses ...
        2. shuhartred
          shuhartred 12 January 2017 09: 32
          +1
          Quote: 210ox
          The reason is banal - our system. People work for pennies, old experienced workers left without preparing a shift .. Young people are easier and more profitable to be office plankton, traders, but they just don’t get to the machine or sit at the workplace of the installer.

          Why did you fix the same thing? When were you at the factory last time? I don’t know how it is with you, but I worked in more than one enterprise (Murmansk), everywhere there are a lot of young people (from 20 to 40). They work as locksmiths, welders, assemblers, foundry workers, no one even thinks about an office. Moreover, they treat "plankton" with a slight contempt and work normally well (salary on average 30-35kr, though with overtime). And on CNC machines they learn in the process of work, not immediately, but it turns out.
          PS How can I to sit down for the workplace of the installer ??? request He has the whole object a workplace, the seat is not enough, unless it comes to the installation of microcircuits.
          1. Yuyuka
            Yuyuka 12 January 2017 10: 58
            +1
            I don’t know how it is with you, but I worked at more than one enterprise (Murmansk), everywhere it is full of young people (from 20 to 40).

            and we had a plant in the Rostov region, it supplied products to dozens of countries ... "they were further optimized" to such an extent that there was no one to work in the shops, and now there are a lot of orders due to the changing situation and the dollar exchange rate, and there are no more top-class welders - gone "them long agorequest looking for and inviting retirees on any terms! And where is the young shift? Therefore, even a high salary does not help ... all this is patching holes. Somewhere it helps like yours, but mostly it does not solve the problem. It is necessary to change the entire system in personnel matters - to use the richest Soviet experience! In particular, attracting young people at the expense of social benefits, and not only at the expense of salaries. Only at the expense of the "owner-employer" this cannot be solved, there should be a state policy hi
            1. shuhartred
              shuhartred 13 January 2017 08: 46
              0
              Quote: Yuyuka
              and we had a plant in the Rostov region, supplied products to dozens of countries ... "re-optimized" to such an extent that there is no one to work in the shops,

              Is it a private or state enterprise? If a private trader, then this is his problem, there was no "optimization". Now I suppose the last hairs are being pulled out in all places. If the state then questions to the director. Forgive what the fuck? But as you yourself write the question are trying to solve, which is already a lot.
              Quote: Yuyuka
              Therefore, even a high salary does not save ... all this is patching holes. Somewhere it helps as you have, but basically does not solve the problem.

              In our country, the figures I voiced are not considered high wages. The region is quite expensive in all respects and no one will go to work for less money. But if not d..l and hands are not crooked, then after gaining experience, you can reach the level of 60-80kr, and this is already worthy and there is an incentive. With such a salary, the presence of a "social package" fades into the background (from personal experience I speak)
              Quote: Yuyuka
              ! And where is the young shift ??

              He sits in vocational school and studies, because they know there is something to fight for.
              Quote: Yuyuka
              In particular, attracting youth at the expense of social benefits, and not just at the expense of salary.

              And what are these social benefits? I already wrote above that with a decent salary, the social package is of little concern. The most acute problem is housing, in Murmansk it is not stupid to build it, but if they build it, then the price is "from the plane." How do you see the solution to the problem "using the richest Soviet experience" in the current conditions? Nobody will give for free, so the question again comes down to money. Good salary plus confidence in the future (and this is already the state's responsibility to provide) and you can take out a mortgage (the government would not hurt to lower the interest) hi
              1. Yuyuka
                Yuyuka 14 January 2017 11: 49
                0
                Is it a private factory or a state-owned enterprise?
                Well, we are talking about serious things ... and private or public is such a vague concept request this plant is "Krasny Kotelshchik", read on Wikipedia even there are many interesting things, although not all ... since 2001, the 10th director, reductions and shaking up constantly ...

                But as you write the question yourself, they are trying to solve, which is already a lot.

                A Russian man should be thanked at least for his intentions ... (c) The great writer was Gogol - even in the 21st century his words do not become obsolete!

                And what are these social benefits in mind?

                Yes, you yourself partially answered winked
                The most acute housing problem

                what solution? Yes, everything has already been invented in the Soviet system of training for the future! An example is that after graduation, young specialists were obliged to work for three years on distribution with the provision of housing in the guest room or apartment. Of course, these apartments were a rarity big in big cities, but in small ones my classmates got them in a year or two. Housing is the most important thing for young people, not salary. What is the difference between the policies of the current government and the Soviet? Lack of strategic thinking - for decades to come. They do not make any plans for several years ... More precisely, they have a lot of plans, but who are they going to solve with them? You and I are not considered in these plans. request

                No one will give for free, so the question again rests on money.

                and if a young man is offered an apartment under a contract with the state? for this he undertakes to master the profession and work at this enterprise for 10 years, after which it will become property? And if suddenly the company ceases to exist, the apartment automatically becomes the property. This is the best confidence in tomorrow. Tell me a fantasy? That's the whole point - the state strictly monitors the duties of citizens and does not bear any obligations to them, even based on the constitution hi
      2. Bayonet
        Bayonet 12 January 2017 06: 19
        0
        Quote: vlad66
        It was they who were not yet at the VO forum. Here they would have known both the cause and effect and how to do it and how not to do it, and they would also receive instructions in economics, politics and defense

        That's for sure ! good good good good laughing
    3. Reserve officer
      Reserve officer 11 January 2017 20: 07
      +12
      "As you can see, the notorious human factor"

      This is not a human factor. This lack of the necessary number of competent specialists, the destruction of technological discipline, the lack of continuity of generations. Aw, 90!
    4. siberalt
      siberalt 11 January 2017 23: 24
      +1
      The usual gouging, no matter how much you pay, but the execution is canceled. And business cannot be nightmare. And so we live: to whom is business, and to whom is a nightmare!winked
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 12 January 2017 06: 22
        0
        Quote: siberalt
        The usual gouging, no matter how much you pay, but the execution is canceled.

        If for everything to shoot, as the local hotheads suggest, then nobody needs to fight with Russia - they themselves will shoot each other! Those who offer - also wink laughing
  2. Karaul73
    Karaul73 11 January 2017 19: 23
    +18
    Turner just needs to pay more, and not just the office and directors. The authorities lost respect for the work of workers, and that’s the result.
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 11 January 2017 19: 37
      +15
      Quote: Sentry73
      You just need to pay turner Vasya more

      First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.
      1. UralMan
        UralMan 11 January 2017 19: 46
        +2
        Quote: Vladimirets
        Quote: Sentry73
        You just need to pay turner Vasya more

        First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.

        and Ivan Vasilievich’s campaign was not born yet ... it’s a pity to wait until it takes a long time
      2. OLD FART
        OLD FART 11 January 2017 19: 53
        +4
        Quote: Vladimirets
        Quote: Sentry73
        You just need to pay turner Vasya more

        First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.

        I think Uncle Vasya was dug up, shown and buried again .... It’s always usual here with us .. angry
        And then again, too ...
        In the near future, in accordance with the established procedure, a plan of priority actions will be presented.

        Funny and sad ...

        Chatterboxes and thieves ... Saboteurs! negative
        1. Bayonet
          Bayonet 12 January 2017 06: 24
          +4
          Quote: STARPER
          Chatterboxes and thieves ... Saboteurs!

          Old fart! You would have been spanked - you talk a lot! wassat
      3. Yuyuka
        Yuyuka 11 January 2017 22: 52
        +1
        Quote: Sentry73
        You just need to pay turner Vasya more

        First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.


        Well, yes ... and also a place to find where they buried ... how much time is ineptly lost! the worst thing is the continuity is lost - the Teachers leave without having to share their experience ... The Soviet system for decades built up a system of training personnel and attitudes towards young specialists, and with the current approach, there are very few hopes for those who are involved in economics ... request
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 11 January 2017 20: 15
      +11
      Quote: Sentry73
      You just need to pay turner Vasya more,

      The space industry is an area of ​​activity where the turner Vasya, if possible, should be excluded and replaced by a robotic complex. As on the Eurofighter assembly line. Well, if the operation is so unique that only a person can do it, then it should not be a "turner Vasya", but a unique master Vasily Edkadovich Kulibin (as an option).
      And his salary should be such that "Deputy Genius Marketing Director" could only dream of ...
      Then the missiles will not fall, and * Mace * will stop flying every other time, according to the mood ... And it will start like a bullet from AK-47, and its BBs will hit the aiming point like Robin, who is Gut, in the plumage of his previously released arrows.
      1. tax payerschik
        tax payerschik 11 January 2017 21: 07
        +9
        I went on vacation for a month, and the cnc machine section got up and stood until I came back. Well, I didn’t quite get up. There a pair of boys picking some kind of sleeve. It’s me that the robotic complex itself does not work. In Soviet times, I programmed and set up a robotic complex of Soviet nano-production.
        1. Yuyuka
          Yuyuka 11 January 2017 23: 06
          +8
          I went on vacation for a month, and the cnc machine section got up and stood until I came back. Well, I didn’t quite get up. There a pair of boys picking some kind of sleeve. It’s me that the robotic complex itself does not work. In Soviet times, I programmed and set up a robotic complex of Soviet nano-production

          also engaged in Soviet times robotic complexes wink therefore, the reasoning on the topic "robots work, not man" and "they will do everything for us" is meaningless to comment request In order for high-tech machines and lines to work, specialists need the highest class, moreover, universal - both in electronics and mechanics, and who also know the manufacturing technology! Unfortunately, this understanding is not enough for many "managers" of production ... And how many times with gratitude I remember the Soviet system of technical education, which all my life helps to solve any problem and learn everything! hi
          1. tax payerschik
            tax payerschik 13 January 2017 21: 48
            +1
            Right The teachers themselves said that their main task is to teach them to learn. I still wonder how much they managed to put knowledge into my flabby head. Now I feel like a professor, although this is not a joke.
            1. Yuyuka
              Yuyuka 16 January 2017 23: 31
              +1
              Now I feel like a professor, although this is not a joke.

              similarly ... they also told us - we do not teach you how to cram an object, we teach you where it can be found to solve a specific problem and the ability to formulate this problem hi
        2. gridasov
          gridasov 11 January 2017 23: 13
          +2
          Absolutely right! The machine operator must and is able to feel his car as himself. In the same way, the inventor feels his brainchild. To understand the principles of operation of any turbine, I had to work out so many brainstorming techniques that I had already created the very method of stimulating the work of the brain. But I reached that fundamental level when I could see the causes of the destruction of rotor parts during centrifugal rotation. This is incredible, but even creating a prototype of such a turbine, despite the fact that it is quite simple, without understanding the theory, you cannot see it in the process of working as an energy machine. But the most interesting thing is that UFO engines are built in the same way conceptually.
    3. 97110
      97110 11 January 2017 20: 22
      +6
      Quote: Sentry73
      The authorities lost respect for the work of workers, and that’s the result.

      Ooooh, how bold and impartial. And the employer can pay more Vasya, so that you understand - OWNER. The government is obliged to comply with the LAW. There is no law obliging the Master to pay more to Vasya. There is a law of value formulated by Marx. Our Duma didn’t think up another one. If you think a lot of the Duma, it will be re-elected out of turn as extremist. Capitalism is in our country, and space rockets are a relic of socialism. This is all the damned Bolsheviks came up with! If not for the October coup, there would have been no problems with the Protons!
      1. My doctor
        My doctor 11 January 2017 20: 44
        0
        Quote: 97110
        Our Duma didn’t think up another

        So economic laws come up with legislative branches of government? Seriously?
        There are other theories of value, but you don't need to know this.
        1. 97110
          97110 11 January 2017 22: 15
          0
          Quote: MyVrach
          Are economic laws coming up with legislative branches?

          You have entered this restriction.
    4. BYV
      BYV 11 January 2017 21: 36
      +3
      Quote: Sentry73
      You just need to pay turner Vasya more

      Do not worry. They pay, and pay normally. There is simply no one to pay. After the blessed 90's, we have only managers and lawyers left. Now the training of workers is in full swing, but only when it really affects is the question.
    5. siberalt
      siberalt 11 January 2017 23: 39
      +2
      Yeah, first pay the teacher, so that Uncle Vasya will teach you how to write and count, then the master in teaching the profession, and the doctor so that they all do not get sick. So it turns out that the system needs to be changed.
  3. Sergey-8848
    Sergey-8848 11 January 2017 19: 26
    +5
    Sloppiness!
    Translated into the official, cloth and strict language of the Criminal Code - negligence. The point is small (not the switchman).
    1. vlad66
      vlad66 11 January 2017 20: 13
      +9
      Quote: Sergey-8848
      The point is small (not the switchman).

      That's just the switchman and do. hi
  4. Sterlya
    Sterlya 11 January 2017 19: 28
    +9
    It is necessary to exclude the thought itself in such a production. Maybe a ride. Many times, he himself came across such an idea of ​​non-professional people. Because of this, all the troubles.
    1. UralMan
      UralMan 11 January 2017 20: 00
      0
      Quote: Sterlya
      Many times, he himself came across such an idea of ​​non-professional people.

      You go read psychic thoughts?
      And when else another will collapse?
      I wish I could come across ... a thought .... but where does she go? Well, I’m obviously not going there ...
      and here is our GDP ... probably every day it is confronted and confronted ... as a result, it is confused and confronted ... that's why we live
      1. Sterlya
        Sterlya 11 January 2017 21: 13
        +1
        Quote: UralChel
        Quote: Sterlya
        Many times, he himself came across such an idea of ​​non-professional people.

        You go read psychic thoughts?
        And when else another will collapse?
        I wish I could come across ... a thought .... but where does she go? Well, I’m obviously not going there ...
        and here is our GDP ... probably every day it is confronted and confronted ... as a result, it is confused and confronted ... that's why we live

        I do not read thoughts. Knowing my exactingness. These say. much more precisely. When you can’t explain. often have to be fired. Since Man does not understand simply. then this is not his place.
        1. UralMan
          UralMan 12 January 2017 17: 46
          0
          Quote: Sterlya
          I do not read thoughts. Knowing my exactingness.

          ----------
          and did not expect another answer ...
          exactingness and all good
          ----------
          Well, why do we live like this?
          if you can then explain ... see photo
          1. tax payerschik
            tax payerschik 13 January 2017 21: 52
            0
            Listen to Delyagin. He puts everything on the shelves.
  5. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 11 January 2017 19: 29
    +7
    The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...
    The production culture and personnel training has fallen (bringing up a new one ... this is work for years) ... so you need to tighten the organization of production and the control system during assembly while simultaneously raising the level of technical literacy of workers ...
    1. UralMan
      UralMan 11 January 2017 19: 48
      +1
      Quote: silberwolf88
      The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...

      and how many ships should be dumped .... while we are correcting?
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 11 January 2017 20: 12
        0
        Quote: silberwolf88
        The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...

        The next launch is February 21. Where is it methodically ...
      2. Sterlya
        Sterlya 11 January 2017 21: 17
        +1
        Quote: UralChel
        Quote: silberwolf88
        The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...

        and how many ships should be dumped .... while we are correcting?

        what kind of person are you? Need to work.
        If I worked in production, I have to understand. If you didn’t work, it’s not enough to explain my rest of life anymore.
    2. zart_arn
      zart_arn 11 January 2017 19: 57
      +5
      Think correctly, only who will do this, especially at the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, where warriors command. The main thing there is the implementation of circulars, orders, charters - then no one will become guilty even when everything is scattered to the smithereens.
      Accidents are the natural and inevitable results of any production activity, they have always been and will be, only reducing their number is possible only by lighting a fire in the soul of the whole team and no carrots and sticks will help, especially in the conditions of the barracks. Those who understand this and know how to do it, those are millionaires and will never go under the command of the Polymir.
      Therefore, the revival of high-tech industries is the most difficult and most important task for the country's leadership, the current one is apparently not capable of this.
      1. 97110
        97110 11 January 2017 20: 35
        +3
        Quote: zart_arn
        it’s only possible to reduce their number by lighting a fire in the soul of the whole team

        Correctly. But in our well-to-do society, every more or less advanced company considers it its duty to publish a document called "Company Policy in the Field of Human Resource Management". Anyone, even a technically illiterate person, shudderingly imagines how his (resource!) Is poured into a conventional gearbox and, after the standard operating hours have been worked out, the working off is drained. And so as not to imagine himself! To know that there are SHAREHOLDERS (!), And he is a liter bottle with a resource.
      2. Camel
        Camel 11 January 2017 22: 59
        +5
        zart_arn
        Think correctly, only who will do this, especially at the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, where warriors command. The main thing there is the implementation of circulars, orders, charters - then no one will become guilty even when everything is scattered to the smithereens.

        Forgive me, you probably never worked with military acceptance — they do not comply with circulars and decrees, but with the requirements of the Civil Code and the General Directorate. The charters are of course important to them, but it is the Charter that requires them to strictly comply with the requirements of the general customer, namely the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, and these requirements include, among other things, the need for theoretical protection of the project (at the stage of research), the need for experimental testing (at the stage of design and development ), the need for proof of reliability (then), and, most cherry, the need for technological discipline in production. I will explain - even if an accident occurs, the investigation will very quickly find out at which stage the mistake was made, and the Military Representative who put his signature on the acceptance certificate of this stage will go through the stage. Sorry for the pun.
  6. Igor V
    Igor V 11 January 2017 19: 32
    +1
    Again, this ubiquitous "foreign particle"! How many accidents she brought in the history of astronautics. crying
    1. UralMan
      UralMan 11 January 2017 19: 49
      +1
      Quote: Igor V
      Again, this ubiquitous "foreign particle"! How many accidents she brought in the history of astronautics. crying

      there are a lot of foreign particles in the brain ... that's where all the troubles come from
  7. My doctor
    My doctor 11 January 2017 19: 40
    +5
    The crash ceased to be the number one news, became the information background, a couple of years and will become commonplace.
    1. UralMan
      UralMan 11 January 2017 19: 51
      0
      Quote: MyVrach
      The crash ceased to be the number one news, became the information background, a couple of years and will become commonplace.

      in when they will fall more .... get used to - what we do not get used to ...
    2. OLD FART
      OLD FART 11 January 2017 20: 00
      +2
      Quote: MyVrach
      a couple of years and become commonplace.

      Yes, it’s already commonplace, all this .. Well, it fell and that, supposedly there is still money in the reserve fund ...?
      Shoot a couple of top managers .. (howl really starts ..) but nothing!
      1. zart_arn
        zart_arn 11 January 2017 20: 14
        +2
        Well, yes, you only work in the firing squad. laughing
        1. OLD FART
          OLD FART 11 January 2017 21: 23
          0
          Quote: zart_arn
          Well, yes, you only work in the firing squad. laughing

          I would read the sentences well .. "FOR CHEERING AND sloppiness .."
          Or here's another ... "For betrayal and betrayal of the motherland, sentence Mr. Ulyukaev and K to capital punishment .... The reptile eats caviar and drinks vodka at home ... angry

          That's always with us ... negative
          1. Camel
            Camel 11 January 2017 23: 05
            0
            OLD FART
            I would read the sentences well .. "FOR CHEERING AND sloppiness .."

            And I like the investigator more: (in the style of comrade Beria) "And what is this, comrade Imyarek, deliberate sabotage or criminal negligence? Huh?" hi
      2. Sterlya
        Sterlya 11 January 2017 21: 19
        0
        Quote: STARPER
        Quote: MyVrach
        a couple of years and become commonplace.

        Yes, it’s already commonplace, all this .. Well, it fell and that, supposedly there is still money in the reserve fund ...?
        Shoot a couple of top managers .. (howl really starts ..) but nothing!

        Output. Yes trouble. We have not been shot for a long time.
        And it would be necessary.
        1. your1970
          your1970 11 January 2017 23: 11
          +2
          to shoot whom? the machinist who sharpened the sleeve? the OTK employee who poorly checked the “military representative” of the chief engineer for not mating the machinist every five minutes and not taking him by the handle?
          here is just the situation - when a particular person will be guilty. Only it’s not easier from this, not easier ...
          Sterlya
          from execution "a couple of top managers .. (howling really starts ..)" -the source will not be better / better sharpening, he will not add skills except moral satisfaction ...
      3. Koshak
        Koshak 12 January 2017 08: 16
        +1
        Quote: STARPER
        Shoot a couple of top managers .. (howl really starts ..) but nothing!

        You are getting smaller, Vitalik. Come on, as always, to the fullest - smudge their office with Iskander and Caliber
    3. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 11 January 2017 21: 17
      +1
      Quote: MyVrach
      a couple of years and become commonplace.
      Hope this never happens!
  8. gridasov
    gridasov 11 January 2017 19: 45
    +6
    The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices. The human factor has nothing to do with it. At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, which reveals its potential transformations. How this happens and why scientists have no idea. Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics. However, theoretical justifications already exist and there is a concrete technical solution to this problem. We will wait until the pride and self-confidence of the chief designers runs out.
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 11 January 2017 20: 01
      +4
      Quote: gridasov
      Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics.

      Why, then, our dreams of a heavy rocket run up against a reduction in the budget for space. And the reasons for the refusal can be the most unexpected, about which the "laws of physics" have no idea in the light of their purely scientific nature. For example, counterfeit technical oil ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. slovak007
      slovak007 11 January 2017 21: 21
      +1
      The unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, in which indicators of its potential transformations are revealed. How this happens and why scientists have no idea

      Strongly said, to understand the truth what it still means ... recourse
      PS Although I know hydraulics, aerodynamics, sopromat, strength and thermome well.
      By the way, in addition to experimental testing of compressors / turbines (with the involvement of even such methods as holographic and speckle interferometry), a mathematical model is being created, for example, in ANSYS, Star-CD and other systems, which allows you to "grope" the operating modes.
      And if we speak specifically about the accident, then do not forget another fact - domestic policy ...
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 11 January 2017 22: 46
        +1
        No, I'm purely talking about the physical process of the outflow of hydro-gas-dynamic flow along the surface of the outflow of blades or blades. the fact is that all of the above mat models are not able to analyze the totality of phenomena in the process of flow expiration. To find out how you say the operation mode is therefore not just not capable, but not able to see how the algorithms of the process of this flow should be changed. First, note that it is impossible to build a spatial model of stresses in space on a binary code, secondly, it is impossible to simulate the dynamics of combined processes, and thirdly, in the mat itself. The model does not have the ability to analyze the processes occurring in the hydrodynamic flow itself. Or am I wrong? In general, according to theory, you can argue for a long time, but you do not have a solution to the problem because you do not see the causes of the destruction. In this case, the problem is solved very simply. Namely, the fact that in the device itself it is simply and trite to do everything the other way around. I will not talk about the subtleties because it is too important because the technical solutions themselves are already a prerequisite for creating aircraft engines using new process algorithms.
    4. Sterlya
      Sterlya 11 January 2017 21: 22
      0
      Quote: gridasov
      The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices. The human factor has nothing to do with it. At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, which reveals its potential transformations. How this happens and why scientists have no idea. Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics. However, theoretical justifications already exist and there is a concrete technical solution to this problem. We will wait until the pride and self-confidence of the chief designers runs out.

      All this is crap.
      Summon Beria! in a couple of months all problems would be solved. There is no patriotism, and all have the same money in their heads, but Chernysh Obama Yubezyan. wassat
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 11 January 2017 22: 52
        0
        What months are you talking about? The question only needs to be realized. The calculation method is! There is a conceptual model! Machinery equipment allows you to make a turbine in one sitting. And this I am talking only about one area of ​​application of the methodology and device. Therefore, I agree with you that there is no spirit of scientific knowledge. I have not heard. so that someone tries to understand me. Just ridicule. But everything works and everything is obvious as a clear day. I know for sure that without our decision the missile industry will stagnate. But a small question that lies at the foundation of the whole huge process does not give forward movement.
      2. your1970
        your1970 11 January 2017 23: 16
        0
        Quote: Sterlya
        Quote: gridasov
        The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices. The human factor has nothing to do with it. At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, which reveals its potential transformations. How this happens and why scientists have no idea. Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics. However, theoretical justifications already exist and there is a concrete technical solution to this problem. We will wait until the pride and self-confidence of the chief designers runs out.

        All this is crap.
        Summon Beria! in a couple of months all problems would be solved. There is no patriotism, and all have the same money in their heads, but Chernysh Obama Yubezyan. wassat
        -the problem is that you have to shoot AT FIRST Vasya the turner who ground that sleeve ..... And despite the presence / absence of patriotism in him ....
    5. SPACE
      SPACE 11 January 2017 23: 11
      0
      Quote: gridasov
      At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas dynamic flow itself, which reveals the indicators of its potential transformations.

      Over the hill we were told about the problems and methods of computer modeling of gas-liquid dynamic processes in elements with complex geometry, indeed with increasing speeds and the pursuit of efficiency, the structural part recedes into the background, without thoroughly understanding all the mechanisms of what is happening, it is impossible to sharpen the part correctly.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 12 January 2017 21: 15
        0
        Absolutely right ! But still, I would not share the theory and design decisions. It is like a two-part and inextricable task. I want and can justify that it is impossible to show the reality and reliability of those processes that occur in the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself and on the interaction surfaces using binary code. Therefore, it is impossible to see the causes of ionization as el. magnetic stresses on these outflow surfaces. But it turns out that our brain is able to see some aspects of such processes that are not obvious in perception. And of course, you cannot grind a part without understanding how it transforms a hydro-gas-dynamic flow. Therefore, I affirm that we created a turbine with a qualitatively new process that not only significantly expands the parameters of non-destructible rotor rotation speeds, but also solves a host of other aggregate problems that have accumulated in modern aviation and other types of turbines.
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. Slender Reed
    Slender Reed 11 January 2017 19: 48
    0
    POSSIBLE REASONS FOR THE ACCIDENT OF THE PROGRESS MS-04 TGC

    www.facebook.com/Roscosmos/photos/a.1398392870415
    396.1073741828.1398327333755283/1851388388449173


    ...possible reasons...
  11. Banishing liberoids
    Banishing liberoids 11 January 2017 19: 52
    +4
    As always, the locksmith Pupkin and the collector Popkin are guilty of them and withhold the cost of the rocket, the commercial truck, the payload that was in this truck, and, at the same time, chained them to the pillory so that others would not be discouraged! fool
  12. Old26
    Old26 11 January 2017 19: 59
    +1
    Quote: gridasov
    The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices.

    And where does heavy rockets have to do with it? "Progress" is started up with the old proven "seven". In this case, it was the penultimate missile. Do not produce anymore, they will not exploit it
    1. Wasiliy1985
      Wasiliy1985 11 January 2017 20: 49
      0
      Oh, is it? And what will the Soyuz be launched to the ISS? As far as I know, the ISS program is still alive and so far, even the Americans are not writing it off for scrap ... Even through our Soyuz, they want to get there. And the carrier - both for "Soyuz", that for "Progress" is the same - the old proven, albeit completely revised, "seven" R-7.
      Here, by the way, I use the epithet "proven old" exclusively in a positive way - the carrier was made at one time for specific tasks, but the joint venture put into it such a potential for development that the old woman is still "alive" and even after modernization some young people have a head start gives. Strong was the genius of the SOVIET designer!
    2. gridasov
      gridasov 12 January 2017 21: 18
      0
      Maybe I said it inaccurately, but I meant generally missiles with practically unlimited useful payload parameters. You just need to destroy the proportional dependence of take-off weight on power and fuel weight. And it can be done
  13. valent45
    valent45 11 January 2017 20: 49
    0
    Specialists in production are becoming less and less. Soon we’ll run around with a flashlight
    bulldozer or crane operator.
  14. weksha50
    weksha50 11 January 2017 21: 12
    0
    Often ... too often ... some kind of positive dynamic ... And, as usual, the "notorious human factor" ...
    I agree with the causal relationship of the human factor and the accident ... This factor is in the leadership, in the first place, which cannot organize work and training ... This factor, in complete irresponsibility, falls like overripe apples from a tree .. I do not advocate finding the switchman and putting him at eleven years old (this goes without saying) ...
    I advocate that for a long time it was time to restore order even in such a crucial industry as the space ...
    By the way, it was not just money that barked ... It was money that could have been used much more efficiently ... Not for theft and sawing, but for the same pensions, medicine, etc.
    They stole, sawed, here - a rocket fall ... So no budgets will be enough ... For the "electorate", of course ...
  15. Old26
    Old26 11 January 2017 21: 15
    0
    Quote: Wasiliy1985
    Oh is it? And what will the Soyuz be launched to the ISS? As far as I know, the ISS program is still alive and so far, even the Americans are not writing it off for scrap.

    I apologize. While I was fixing something in the previous post, I was fixing it to the point that part of the message disappeared. It was the penultimate Soyuz-U missile. They will no longer produce and operate it. The last one (serial number T15000-145) will be used by Progress-MS5 this year. In the future, the "progress" will be launched on the version of the Soyuz-2-1a, and the cosmonauts on the ISS on what the "Soyuz FG"
  16. Justme
    Justme 11 January 2017 21: 54
    0
    I recently watched videos that I made at work shortly before leaving the space industry ...

    ... Well, this is complete idiocy .. And it was decided to stake on this "Kindergarten" ...

    In the private firm where I work now, the developer floor is a tough "fight club" ...
    A couple of months ago, when the salary at the space research institute became very bad, that "Kindergarten" Hope-and-Perspektiva "burst out for us to find a job ... well, they tried ... and left home with shaking knees ...
  17. Old26
    Old26 11 January 2017 22: 18
    +2
    Quote: weksha50
    Often ... too often ... some positive dynamics

    Yes, there is no, in principle, positive dynamics. If you look at years and countries over the past 10 years (the top three countries are Russia, the USA, and China), then China is in a better position (the ratio of accidents to all launches). He has only 4 accidents for 151 launches, i.e. 2,65%
    In second place is the United States. They have 8 accidents for 190 launches, i.e. 4,21%. On the third, we have 18 accidents at 289 launches, or 6,23%.
    Of course, the main role is played by human facts in any manifestation - inadequate qualifications, lack or lack of control, violation of manufacturing technology, and also HZ what. But, fortunately, there is no positive dynamics. There are leaps, but no growth

    If you look at the number of accidents by year over the past 10 years, then in
    2007 year Russia (2), USA (2)
    2008 year Russia (1), USA (1)
    year 2009. Russia (1), USA (1), China (1)
    2010 year. Russia 1)
    year 2011. Russia (3), USA (1), China (1)
    2012 year. Russia 1)
    year 2013. Russia (2), China (1)
    2014 year Russia (2), USA (1)
    2015 year Russia (3), USA (2)
    year 2016. Russia (1), China (1)
  18. alexey1213
    alexey1213 12 January 2017 00: 29
    0
    The definition most likely does not carry any specifics. The pump bushings have long been sharpened by CNC. Let's say that we accidentally missed the marriage, then the pump passed the strait test having passed all the parameters. About foreign objects it is nonsense if you didn’t stuff anything there specially. The precedent has already when aluminum seals were found on Khrunichev’s engine nozzles. Aluminum is not friends with heptyl. Such commission conclusions will not lead to a solution to the problem.
  19. bald
    bald 12 January 2017 07: 00
    0
    If to be objective, then for some reason we are silent about other versions. It may sound corny. And if someone helped from outside. A specialist at a certain stage of verification can do this (I do not want to blame anyone). You think if the defense industry, then that's it, the iron wall, so it is most susceptible to attacks (I worked, I know). And one more thing. I think the MCC carefully watched the video at the time when it happened.
  20. Rom14
    Rom14 12 January 2017 12: 06
    0
    Quote: cniza
    Only he who does nothing is not mistaken, period.

    You tell Lavrenty Pavlovich ... Or to his wife in the kitchen.
  21. Old26
    Old26 12 January 2017 13: 02
    0
    Quote: Rom14
    Quote: cniza
    Only he who does nothing is not mistaken, period.

    You tell Lavrenty Pavlovich ... Or to his wife in the kitchen.

    Are you sure that Lavrenty Pavlovich always always put to the wall? No need to make a monster out of him, who only did what he shot. Otherwise, we would never know the name of Korolev, Tupolev and others
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 12 January 2017 21: 24
      0
      And you are right! A person, especially a creative workforce, cannot create an effective intellectual product if he feels oppressed and enslaved. Everything is apparently not quite as they paint. I know this from myself. Effective reasoning and thoughts do not come at times of satiety and all-encompassing well-being, that's for sure. But when they come and how to stimulate them not many know