Roscosmos published a report on the causes of the collapse of Progress MS-04

The accident of the Progress space truck caused a much larger information surge than the results of the investigation into the causes of the crash. Many media outlets, which so vividly discussed the crash itself, are in fact ignoring the conclusions presented by Roscosmos about what led to the accident.

Meanwhile, the State Corporation for Space Activities (Roscosmos) provides a fairly detailed report on the causes of the collapse of the Progress MS-04 TGC. In this case, the reasons are called "the most likely." Recall the wreck happened last December 1.

We present data from the Roscosmos report distributed by the press service of the state corporation:

As a result of the accident, a non-standard mechanical separation of the third stage of the launch vehicle and the transport cargo ship occurred. Fragments of a space rocket fell in an inaccessible mountain-wooded area approximately 100 km west of Kyzyl (Tyva Republic) without causing material damage to the ground infrastructure. The fragments of the third stage of the PH and THC, which reached the earth's surface, did not pose a danger to the environment and the population.

The emergency commission members established the following: the most likely cause of the accident is the opening of the “O” tank of the third stage of the LV as a result of the elements arising from the destruction of the 11D55 engine due to fire and further destruction of the oxidizer pump. The cause of ignition of the oxidizer pump could be possible ingress of foreign particles into the pump cavity or a possible violation of the 11D55 engine assembly technology (discrepancy between the gaps between the screw and the sleeve; between the floating rings and the impeller, possible imbalance and rotor beating). Defect having a production nature, manifested in flight.

As can be seen, the notorious human factor (when assembling a truck) as the cause of the accident is referred to as “most likely” by the Roscosmos along with the influence of foreign particles.

From the message of "Roskosmos":

In the near future, in accordance with the established procedure, a plan of priority measures will be presented at enterprises and organizations of the rocket and space industry to ensure the safe launch of TGC Progress MS-05.

Comments

[bouncyhunter]

The same thing sounded in the "preliminary version", which has now become the "most likely"

[Monos]

gap mismatch between the screw and the sleeve; between floating rings and impeller, possible imbalance and runout of the rotor

I did not understand this. Are they there, on 16K20 manually bushing bushings? Delirium, delirium, delirium.
Here is an example of what modern machines can:

[Barakuda]

At 16k20 f3s5
But seriously - the video is cool, but I would see how the same machines grind some sort of special tool or titanium alloy. Of course they can, but the machines are completely different.

[Monos]

Quote: Barracuda

But seriously - the video is cool, but I would see how the same machines grind some sort of special tool or titanium alloy. Of course they can, but the machines are completely different.

I think the only question is the right choice of equipment and modes.

[cniza]

Only he who does nothing is not mistaken, period.

[seregatara1969]

titanium is easy to cut

[An60]

16A20 (Ф3С5 and РП55).

[ghby]

Quote: Monos

I did not understand this. Are they there, on 16K20 manually bushing bushings? Delirium, delirium, delirium. Here is an example of the fact that modern machines can:

to make a beautiful curly fritball machine do not give a damn about the tolerances and overheating of the metal, and make a simple part with the specified minimum tolerances without allowing overheating, as it were, completely different things, and the second is more complicated. The cutter (milling cutter) and the machine itself wear out accordingly affect the quality and size of the products.

[Monos]

Your comment is true for handmade. A modern CNC machine weaves without problems and in the right modes. Here:


Or this:

[ghby]

Quote: Monos

CNC machine weaving catches without problems and in the right modes.

The essence of my post was not that the CNC machine would not catch the weave in the necessary modes, but that many factors that stupidly do not take into account civilian production affect the quality of the product. By the way, the CNC will catch exactly what it has in the parameters and what it will invest in it in accordance with the flow chart, but what it says is a big big secret for such a small company.

Quote: seregatara1969

titanium is easy to cut

it’s so easy that in our city for the manufacture of titanium bolts for the construction of the subway, we found only one defense factory capable of manufacturing them, who set a good bill that urgently converted the project to steel, as a result, these bolts burst when loaded. But all this is rumored :)

[doubovitski]

What does the trick picture have to do with it? Do you imagine the design of these glands? What turns does these details make? What are the general requirements for them? Which gaps are good and which are bad? No, right? Then why this demonstration?
The main thing is that they learn a lesson from the incident and draw the right conclusions. We can only hope here on the couch. And don't fake it.

[Monos]

"Good and bad clearances"? Hmm ... what century do you live in? All this has been standardized for a hundred years. In short, it's understandable. It is useless to talk to you. You have nothing to do with metalworking.

[Michael easily]

The classic "pilotage" of the investigation - factual material - analysis - conclusions - analysis of the findings - work ...

[Bayonet]

Quote: doubovitski

Do you imagine the design of these glands? What turns does these details make?

Well, for example
Impressive? And what crazy loads are there

[gridasov]

I will not dispute the legitimacy of the fact that the performance of the device pumps kilograms, but I can say that even with such a performance, the axial shift force is observed at the suction of the device. I will not say what parameters it reaches on other devices, but it is tens of tons of traction. Therefore, you can imagine that the designer is faced with the problem of not only increasing the performance of the devices, but also of the issues of not being ripped off at the attachment points. Therefore, to say about the frequency of rotation of the shaft and not to say about its radius, this means to say nothing. For example, we accelerated our turbine to high speeds with a diameter of about 15 centimeters. In this case, the noise was only from the bearings. But our turbine can be accelerated to an order of higher speeds and in diameters also by orders of magnitude higher and without destruction. Therefore, the solution to the problems of the destruction of the rotating parts of the rotor is a key problem for the entire rocket engine. Without our decision, new rocket engines on modern TNAs are futile. And no high-strength materials can solve this problem. It is solved in a completely unusual way for designers to understand.

[Titsen]

Quote: Monos

I did not understand this.

I did not understand the IMPORTANT: that is, no one is to blame?

Will it be the same next?

When will these bureaucratic bureaucrats draw conclusions on the basis of which they will start filming loafers and non-professionals !?

Such, for example, as divandek Syurdyukov!

[Skifotavr]

Quote: Titsen

Will it be the same next?

But what about! As one local young amateur of photography of Einstein wrote here earlier, soon everything will fall for you (although it was already falling then). Not there you are looking for reasons. Look for specific shots - even if they are ordinary workers. It would be useful for your special services to dig up their biographies.

[Lelek]

Quote: Monos

Monos

The purest "blunder" of state acceptance.

[vlad66]

Many of the media that have so vividly discussed the crash itself actually ignore the conclusions presented by Roskosmos regarding what led to the accident.

It was they who were not yet in the VO forum Here they would have known both cause and effect and how to do and how not to do, as well as receive instructions in economics, politics and defense.

[210ox]

Yes, you’re right, there’s a consequence and a reason .. This is VO! The reason is commonplace, our system. People work for pennies, old experienced workers left without preparing a shift .. Young people are easier and more profitable to be office plankton, traders, but it just doesn't get to the machine or sits at the workplace of the installer.

Quote: vlad66

Many of the media that have so vividly discussed the crash itself actually ignore the conclusions presented by Roskosmos regarding what led to the accident.

It was they who were not yet in the VO forum Here they would have known both cause and effect and how to do and how not to do, as well as receive instructions in economics, politics and defense.

[Michael easily]

If my memory serves me (in a mix of fundamental metaphors) - everyone is responsible for their actions before the Lord God ... And in the current situation, without incl. of all potential resources - + - There is a PREDICTION factor - it is unrealistic to CALCULATE everything - you can’t do without losses ...

[shuhartred]

Quote: 210ox

The reason is banal - our system. People work for pennies, old experienced workers left without preparing a shift .. Young people are easier and more profitable to be office plankton, traders, but they just don’t get to the machine or sit at the workplace of the installer.

Why did you fix the same thing? When were you at the factory last time? I don’t know how it is with you, but I worked in more than one enterprise (Murmansk), everywhere there are a lot of young people (from 20 to 40). They work as locksmiths, welders, assemblers, foundry workers, no one even thinks about an office. Moreover, they treat "plankton" with a slight contempt and work normally well (salary on average 30-35kr, though with overtime). And on CNC machines they learn in the process of work, not immediately, but it turns out.
PS How can I to sit down for the workplace of the installer ??? He has the whole object a workplace, the seat is not enough, unless it comes to the installation of microcircuits.

[Yuyuka]

I don’t know how it is with you, but I worked at more than one enterprise (Murmansk), everywhere it is full of young people (from 20 to 40).

and we had a plant in the Rostov region, it supplied products to dozens of countries ... "they were further optimized" to such an extent that there was no one to work in the shops, and now there are a lot of orders due to the changing situation and the dollar exchange rate, and there are no more top-class welders - gone "them long ago looking for and inviting retirees on any terms! And where is the young shift? Therefore, even a high salary does not help ... all this is patching holes. Somewhere it helps like yours, but mostly it does not solve the problem. It is necessary to change the entire system in personnel matters - to use the richest Soviet experience! In particular, attracting young people at the expense of social benefits, and not only at the expense of salaries. Only at the expense of the "owner-employer" this cannot be solved, there should be a state policy

[shuhartred]

Quote: Yuyuka

and we had a plant in the Rostov region, supplied products to dozens of countries ... "re-optimized" to such an extent that there is no one to work in the shops,

Is it a private or state enterprise? If a private trader, then this is his problem, there was no "optimization". Now I suppose the last hairs are being pulled out in all places. If the state then questions to the director. Forgive what the fuck? But as you yourself write the question are trying to solve, which is already a lot.

Quote: Yuyuka

Therefore, even a high salary does not save ... all this is patching holes. Somewhere it helps as you have, but basically does not solve the problem.

In our country, the figures I voiced are not considered high wages. The region is quite expensive in all respects and no one will go to work for less money. But if not d..l and hands are not crooked, then after gaining experience, you can reach the level of 60-80kr, and this is already worthy and there is an incentive. With such a salary, the presence of a "social package" fades into the background (from personal experience I speak)

Quote: Yuyuka

! And where is the young shift ??

He sits in vocational school and studies, because they know there is something to fight for.

Quote: Yuyuka

In particular, attracting youth at the expense of social benefits, and not just at the expense of salary.

And what are these social benefits? I already wrote above that with a decent salary, the social package is of little concern. The most acute problem is housing, in Murmansk it is not stupid to build it, but if they build it, then the price is "from the plane." How do you see the solution to the problem "using the richest Soviet experience" in the current conditions? Nobody will give for free, so the question again comes down to money. Good salary plus confidence in the future (and this is already the state's responsibility to provide) and you can take out a mortgage (the government would not hurt to lower the interest)

[Yuyuka]

Is it a private factory or a state-owned enterprise?
Well, we are talking about serious things ... and private or public is such a vague concept this plant is "Krasny Kotelshchik", read on Wikipedia even there are many interesting things, although not all ... since 2001, the 10th director, reductions and shaking up constantly ...

But as you write the question yourself, they are trying to solve, which is already a lot.

A Russian man should be thanked at least for his intentions ... (c) The great writer was Gogol - even in the 21st century his words do not become obsolete!

And what are these social benefits in mind?

Yes, you yourself partially answered
The most acute housing problem

what solution? Yes, everything has already been invented in the Soviet system of training for the future! An example is that after graduation, young specialists were obliged to work for three years on distribution with the provision of housing in the guest room or apartment. Of course, these apartments were a rarity big in big cities, but in small ones my classmates got them in a year or two. Housing is the most important thing for young people, not salary. What is the difference between the policies of the current government and the Soviet? Lack of strategic thinking - for decades to come. They do not make any plans for several years ... More precisely, they have a lot of plans, but who are they going to solve with them? You and I are not considered in these plans.

No one will give for free, so the question again rests on money.

and if a young man is offered an apartment under a contract with the state? for this he undertakes to master the profession and work at this enterprise for 10 years, after which it will become property? And if suddenly the company ceases to exist, the apartment automatically becomes the property. This is the best confidence in tomorrow. Tell me a fantasy? That's the whole point - the state strictly monitors the duties of citizens and does not bear any obligations to them, even based on the constitution

[Bayonet]

Quote: vlad66

It was they who were not yet at the VO forum. Here they would have known both the cause and effect and how to do it and how not to do it, and they would also receive instructions in economics, politics and defense

That's for sure !

[Reserve officer]

"As you can see, the notorious human factor"

This is not a human factor. This lack of the necessary number of competent specialists, the destruction of technological discipline, the lack of continuity of generations. Aw, 90!

[siberalt]

The usual gouging, no matter how much you pay, but the execution is canceled. And business cannot be nightmare. And so we live: to whom is business, and to whom is a nightmare!

[Bayonet]

Quote: siberalt

The usual gouging, no matter how much you pay, but the execution is canceled.

If for everything to shoot, as the local hotheads suggest, then nobody needs to fight with Russia - they themselves will shoot each other! Those who offer - also

[Karaul73]

Turner just needs to pay more, and not just the office and directors. The authorities lost respect for the work of workers, and that’s the result.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Sentry73

You just need to pay turner Vasya more

First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.

[UralMan]

Quote: Vladimirets

Quote: Sentry73

You just need to pay turner Vasya more

First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.

and Ivan Vasilievich’s campaign was not born yet ... it’s a pity to wait until it takes a long time

[OLD FART]

Quote: Vladimirets

Quote: Sentry73

You just need to pay turner Vasya more

First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.

I think Uncle Vasya was dug up, shown and buried again .... It’s always usual here with us ..
And then again, too ...

In the near future, in accordance with the established procedure, a plan of priority actions will be presented.

Funny and sad ...

Chatterboxes and thieves ... Saboteurs!

[Bayonet]

Quote: STARPER

Chatterboxes and thieves ... Saboteurs!

Old fart! You would have been spanked - you talk a lot!

[Yuyuka]

Quote: Sentry73
You just need to pay turner Vasya more

First you need to dig this Vasya out of the ground.

Well, yes ... and also a place to find where they buried ... how much time is ineptly lost! the worst thing is the continuity is lost - the Teachers leave without having to share their experience ... The Soviet system for decades built up a system of training personnel and attitudes towards young specialists, and with the current approach, there are very few hopes for those who are involved in economics ...

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Sentry73

You just need to pay turner Vasya more,

The space industry is an area of ​​activity where the turner Vasya, if possible, should be excluded and replaced by a robotic complex. As on the Eurofighter assembly line. Well, if the operation is so unique that only a person can do it, then it should not be a "turner Vasya", but a unique master Vasily Edkadovich Kulibin (as an option).
And his salary should be such that "Deputy Genius Marketing Director" could only dream of ...
Then the missiles will not fall, and * Mace * will stop flying every other time, according to the mood ... And it will start like a bullet from AK-47, and its BBs will hit the aiming point like Robin, who is Gut, in the plumage of his previously released arrows.

[tax payerschik]

I went on vacation for a month, and the cnc machine section got up and stood until I came back. Well, I didn’t quite get up. There a pair of boys picking some kind of sleeve. It’s me that the robotic complex itself does not work. In Soviet times, I programmed and set up a robotic complex of Soviet nano-production.

[Yuyuka]

I went on vacation for a month, and the cnc machine section got up and stood until I came back. Well, I didn’t quite get up. There a pair of boys picking some kind of sleeve. It’s me that the robotic complex itself does not work. In Soviet times, I programmed and set up a robotic complex of Soviet nano-production

also engaged in Soviet times robotic complexes therefore, the reasoning on the topic "robots work, not man" and "they will do everything for us" is meaningless to comment In order for high-tech machines and lines to work, specialists need the highest class, moreover, universal - both in electronics and mechanics, and who also know the manufacturing technology! Unfortunately, this understanding is not enough for many "managers" of production ... And how many times with gratitude I remember the Soviet system of technical education, which all my life helps to solve any problem and learn everything!

[tax payerschik]

Right The teachers themselves said that their main task is to teach them to learn. I still wonder how much they managed to put knowledge into my flabby head. Now I feel like a professor, although this is not a joke.

[Yuyuka]

Now I feel like a professor, although this is not a joke.

similarly ... they also told us - we do not teach you how to cram an object, we teach you where it can be found to solve a specific problem and the ability to formulate this problem

[gridasov]

Absolutely right! The machine operator must and is able to feel his car as himself. In the same way, the inventor feels his brainchild. To understand the principles of operation of any turbine, I had to work out so many brainstorming techniques that I had already created the very method of stimulating the work of the brain. But I reached that fundamental level when I could see the causes of the destruction of rotor parts during centrifugal rotation. This is incredible, but even creating a prototype of such a turbine, despite the fact that it is quite simple, without understanding the theory, you cannot see it in the process of working as an energy machine. But the most interesting thing is that UFO engines are built in the same way conceptually.

[97110]

Quote: Sentry73

The authorities lost respect for the work of workers, and that’s the result.

Ooooh, how bold and impartial. And the employer can pay more Vasya, so that you understand - OWNER. The government is obliged to comply with the LAW. There is no law obliging the Master to pay more to Vasya. There is a law of value formulated by Marx. Our Duma didn’t think up another one. If you think a lot of the Duma, it will be re-elected out of turn as extremist. Capitalism is in our country, and space rockets are a relic of socialism. This is all the damned Bolsheviks came up with! If not for the October coup, there would have been no problems with the Protons!

[My doctor]

Quote: 97110

Our Duma didn’t think up another

So economic laws come up with legislative branches of government? Seriously?
There are other theories of value, but you don't need to know this.

[97110]

Quote: MyVrach

Are economic laws coming up with legislative branches?

You have entered this restriction.

[BYV]

Quote: Sentry73

You just need to pay turner Vasya more

Do not worry. They pay, and pay normally. There is simply no one to pay. After the blessed 90's, we have only managers and lawyers left. Now the training of workers is in full swing, but only when it really affects is the question.

[siberalt]

Yeah, first pay the teacher, so that Uncle Vasya will teach you how to write and count, then the master in teaching the profession, and the doctor so that they all do not get sick. So it turns out that the system needs to be changed.

[Sergey-8848]

Sloppiness!
Translated into the official, cloth and strict language of the Criminal Code - negligence. The point is small (not the switchman).

[vlad66]

Quote: Sergey-8848

The point is small (not the switchman).

That's just the switchman and do.

[Sterlya]

It is necessary to exclude the thought itself in such a production. Maybe a ride. Many times, he himself came across such an idea of ​​non-professional people. Because of this, all the troubles.

[UralMan]

Quote: Sterlya

Many times, he himself came across such an idea of ​​non-professional people.

You go read psychic thoughts?
And when else another will collapse?
I wish I could come across ... a thought .... but where does she go? Well, I’m obviously not going there ...
and here is our GDP ... probably every day it is confronted and confronted ... as a result, it is confused and confronted ... that's why we live

[Sterlya]

Quote: UralChel

Quote: Sterlya

Many times, he himself came across such an idea of ​​non-professional people.

You go read psychic thoughts?
And when else another will collapse?
I wish I could come across ... a thought .... but where does she go? Well, I’m obviously not going there ...
and here is our GDP ... probably every day it is confronted and confronted ... as a result, it is confused and confronted ... that's why we live

I do not read thoughts. Knowing my exactingness. These say. much more precisely. When you can’t explain. often have to be fired. Since Man does not understand simply. then this is not his place.

[UralMan]

Quote: Sterlya

I do not read thoughts. Knowing my exactingness.

----------
and did not expect another answer ...
exactingness and all
----------
Well, why do we live like this?
if you can then explain ... see photo

[tax payerschik]

Listen to Delyagin. He puts everything on the shelves.

[silverwolf88]

The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...
The production culture and personnel training has fallen (bringing up a new one ... this is work for years) ... so you need to tighten the organization of production and the control system during assembly while simultaneously raising the level of technical literacy of workers ...

[UralMan]

Quote: silberwolf88

The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...

and how many ships should be dumped .... while we are correcting?

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: silberwolf88

The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...

The next launch is February 21. Where is it methodically ...

[Sterlya]

Quote: UralChel

Quote: silberwolf88

The main thing is methodical work on mistakes ...

and how many ships should be dumped .... while we are correcting?

what kind of person are you? Need to work.
If I worked in production, I have to understand. If you didn’t work, it’s not enough to explain my rest of life anymore.

[zart_arn]

Think correctly, only who will do this, especially at the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, where warriors command. The main thing there is the implementation of circulars, orders, charters - then no one will become guilty even when everything is scattered to the smithereens.
Accidents are the natural and inevitable results of any production activity, they have always been and will be, only reducing their number is possible only by lighting a fire in the soul of the whole team and no carrots and sticks will help, especially in the conditions of the barracks. Those who understand this and know how to do it, those are millionaires and will never go under the command of the Polymir.
Therefore, the revival of high-tech industries is the most difficult and most important task for the country's leadership, the current one is apparently not capable of this.

[97110]

Quote: zart_arn

it’s only possible to reduce their number by lighting a fire in the soul of the whole team

Correctly. But in our well-to-do society, every more or less advanced company considers it its duty to publish a document called "Company Policy in the Field of Human Resource Management". Anyone, even a technically illiterate person, shudderingly imagines how his (resource!) Is poured into a conventional gearbox and, after the standard operating hours have been worked out, the working off is drained. And so as not to imagine himself! To know that there are SHAREHOLDERS (!), And he is a liter bottle with a resource.

[Camel]

zart_arn
Think correctly, only who will do this, especially at the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, where warriors command. The main thing there is the implementation of circulars, orders, charters - then no one will become guilty even when everything is scattered to the smithereens.

Forgive me, you probably never worked with military acceptance — they do not comply with circulars and decrees, but with the requirements of the Civil Code and the General Directorate. The charters are of course important to them, but it is the Charter that requires them to strictly comply with the requirements of the general customer, namely the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, and these requirements include, among other things, the need for theoretical protection of the project (at the stage of research), the need for experimental testing (at the stage of design and development ), the need for proof of reliability (then), and, most cherry, the need for technological discipline in production. I will explain - even if an accident occurs, the investigation will very quickly find out at which stage the mistake was made, and the Military Representative who put his signature on the acceptance certificate of this stage will go through the stage. Sorry for the pun.

[Igor V]

Again, this ubiquitous "foreign particle"! How many accidents she brought in the history of astronautics.

[UralMan]

Quote: Igor V

Again, this ubiquitous "foreign particle"! How many accidents she brought in the history of astronautics.

there are a lot of foreign particles in the brain ... that's where all the troubles come from

[My doctor]

The crash ceased to be the number one news, became the information background, a couple of years and will become commonplace.

[UralMan]

Quote: MyVrach

The crash ceased to be the number one news, became the information background, a couple of years and will become commonplace.

in when they will fall more .... get used to - what we do not get used to ...

[OLD FART]

Quote: MyVrach

a couple of years and become commonplace.

Yes, it’s already commonplace, all this .. Well, it fell and that, supposedly there is still money in the reserve fund ...?
Shoot a couple of top managers .. (howl really starts ..) but nothing!

[zart_arn]

Well, yes, you only work in the firing squad.

[OLD FART]

Quote: zart_arn

Well, yes, you only work in the firing squad.

I would read the sentences well .. "FOR CHEERING AND sloppiness .."
Or here's another ... "For betrayal and betrayal of the motherland, sentence Mr. Ulyukaev and K to capital punishment .... The reptile eats caviar and drinks vodka at home ...

That's always with us ...

[Camel]

OLD FART
I would read the sentences well .. "FOR CHEERING AND sloppiness .."

And I like the investigator more: (in the style of comrade Beria) "And what is this, comrade Imyarek, deliberate sabotage or criminal negligence? Huh?"

[Sterlya]

Quote: STARPER

Quote: MyVrach

a couple of years and become commonplace.

Yes, it’s already commonplace, all this .. Well, it fell and that, supposedly there is still money in the reserve fund ...?
Shoot a couple of top managers .. (howl really starts ..) but nothing!

Output. Yes trouble. We have not been shot for a long time.
And it would be necessary.

[your1970]

to shoot whom? the machinist who sharpened the sleeve? the OTK employee who poorly checked the “military representative” of the chief engineer for not mating the machinist every five minutes and not taking him by the handle?
here is just the situation - when a particular person will be guilty. Only it’s not easier from this, not easier ...
Sterlya
from execution "a couple of top managers .. (howling really starts ..)" -the source will not be better / better sharpening, he will not add skills except moral satisfaction ...

[Koshak]

Quote: STARPER

Shoot a couple of top managers .. (howl really starts ..) but nothing!

You are getting smaller, Vitalik. Come on, as always, to the fullest - smudge their office with Iskander and Caliber

[Boa kaa]

Quote: MyVrach

a couple of years and become commonplace.

Hope this never happens!

[gridasov]

The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices. The human factor has nothing to do with it. At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, which reveals its potential transformations. How this happens and why scientists have no idea. Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics. However, theoretical justifications already exist and there is a concrete technical solution to this problem. We will wait until the pride and self-confidence of the chief designers runs out.

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: gridasov

Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics.

Why, then, our dreams of a heavy rocket run up against a reduction in the budget for space. And the reasons for the refusal can be the most unexpected, about which the "laws of physics" have no idea in the light of their purely scientific nature. For example, counterfeit technical oil ...

[slovak007]

The unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, in which indicators of its potential transformations are revealed. How this happens and why scientists have no idea

Strongly said, to understand the truth what it still means ...
PS Although I know hydraulics, aerodynamics, sopromat, strength and thermome well.
By the way, in addition to experimental testing of compressors / turbines (with the involvement of even such methods as holographic and speckle interferometry), a mathematical model is being created, for example, in ANSYS, Star-CD and other systems, which allows you to "grope" the operating modes.
And if we speak specifically about the accident, then do not forget another fact - domestic policy ...

[gridasov]

No, I'm purely talking about the physical process of the outflow of hydro-gas-dynamic flow along the surface of the outflow of blades or blades. the fact is that all of the above mat models are not able to analyze the totality of phenomena in the process of flow expiration. To find out how you say the operation mode is therefore not just not capable, but not able to see how the algorithms of the process of this flow should be changed. First, note that it is impossible to build a spatial model of stresses in space on a binary code, secondly, it is impossible to simulate the dynamics of combined processes, and thirdly, in the mat itself. The model does not have the ability to analyze the processes occurring in the hydrodynamic flow itself. Or am I wrong? In general, according to theory, you can argue for a long time, but you do not have a solution to the problem because you do not see the causes of the destruction. In this case, the problem is solved very simply. Namely, the fact that in the device itself it is simply and trite to do everything the other way around. I will not talk about the subtleties because it is too important because the technical solutions themselves are already a prerequisite for creating aircraft engines using new process algorithms.

[Sterlya]

Quote: gridasov

The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices. The human factor has nothing to do with it. At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, which reveals its potential transformations. How this happens and why scientists have no idea. Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics. However, theoretical justifications already exist and there is a concrete technical solution to this problem. We will wait until the pride and self-confidence of the chief designers runs out.

All this is crap.
Summon Beria! in a couple of months all problems would be solved. There is no patriotism, and all have the same money in their heads, but Chernysh Obama Yubezyan.

[gridasov]

What months are you talking about? The question only needs to be realized. The calculation method is! There is a conceptual model! Machinery equipment allows you to make a turbine in one sitting. And this I am talking only about one area of ​​application of the methodology and device. Therefore, I agree with you that there is no spirit of scientific knowledge. I have not heard. so that someone tries to understand me. Just ridicule. But everything works and everything is obvious as a clear day. I know for sure that without our decision the missile industry will stagnate. But a small question that lies at the foundation of the whole huge process does not give forward movement.

[your1970]

Quote: Sterlya

Quote: gridasov

The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices. The human factor has nothing to do with it. At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself, which reveals its potential transformations. How this happens and why scientists have no idea. Therefore, the dream of heavy rockets rests on the elementary knowledge of physics. However, theoretical justifications already exist and there is a concrete technical solution to this problem. We will wait until the pride and self-confidence of the chief designers runs out.

All this is crap.
Summon Beria! in a couple of months all problems would be solved. There is no patriotism, and all have the same money in their heads, but Chernysh Obama Yubezyan.

-the problem is that you have to shoot AT FIRST Vasya the turner who ground that sleeve ..... And despite the presence / absence of patriotism in him ....

[SPACE]

Quote: gridasov

At critical revolutions of the rotor of the turbo, the fuel of the supercharger or compressor, or by any other name, the essence does not change - the unbalancing element is the hydro-gas dynamic flow itself, which reveals the indicators of its potential transformations.

Over the hill we were told about the problems and methods of computer modeling of gas-liquid dynamic processes in elements with complex geometry, indeed with increasing speeds and the pursuit of efficiency, the structural part recedes into the background, without thoroughly understanding all the mechanisms of what is happening, it is impossible to sharpen the part correctly.

[gridasov]

Absolutely right ! But still, I would not share the theory and design decisions. It is like a two-part and inextricable task. I want and can justify that it is impossible to show the reality and reliability of those processes that occur in the hydro-gas-dynamic flow itself and on the interaction surfaces using binary code. Therefore, it is impossible to see the causes of ionization as el. magnetic stresses on these outflow surfaces. But it turns out that our brain is able to see some aspects of such processes that are not obvious in perception. And of course, you cannot grind a part without understanding how it transforms a hydro-gas-dynamic flow. Therefore, I affirm that we created a turbine with a qualitatively new process that not only significantly expands the parameters of non-destructible rotor rotation speeds, but also solves a host of other aggregate problems that have accumulated in modern aviation and other types of turbines.

[Slender Reed]

POSSIBLE REASONS FOR THE ACCIDENT OF THE PROGRESS MS-04 TGC

www.facebook.com/Roscosmos/photos/a.1398392870415
396.1073741828.1398327333755283/1851388388449173

...possible reasons...

[Banishing liberoids]

As always, the locksmith Pupkin and the collector Popkin are guilty of them and withhold the cost of the rocket, the commercial truck, the payload that was in this truck, and, at the same time, chained them to the pillory so that others would not be discouraged!

[Old26]

Quote: gridasov

The causes of accidents have been repeatedly indicated by me in comments on space topics. The desire to create heavy missiles rested in the critical capabilities of individual devices.

And where does heavy rockets have to do with it? "Progress" is started up with the old proven "seven". In this case, it was the penultimate missile. Do not produce anymore, they will not exploit it

[Wasiliy1985]

Oh, is it? And what will the Soyuz be launched to the ISS? As far as I know, the ISS program is still alive and so far, even the Americans are not writing it off for scrap ... Even through our Soyuz, they want to get there. And the carrier - both for "Soyuz", that for "Progress" is the same - the old proven, albeit completely revised, "seven" R-7.
Here, by the way, I use the epithet "proven old" exclusively in a positive way - the carrier was made at one time for specific tasks, but the joint venture put into it such a potential for development that the old woman is still "alive" and even after modernization some young people have a head start gives. Strong was the genius of the SOVIET designer!

[gridasov]

Maybe I said it inaccurately, but I meant generally missiles with practically unlimited useful payload parameters. You just need to destroy the proportional dependence of take-off weight on power and fuel weight. And it can be done

[valent45]

Specialists in production are becoming less and less. Soon we’ll run around with a flashlight
bulldozer or crane operator.

[weksha50]

Often ... too often ... some kind of positive dynamic ... And, as usual, the "notorious human factor" ...
I agree with the causal relationship of the human factor and the accident ... This factor is in the leadership, in the first place, which cannot organize work and training ... This factor, in complete irresponsibility, falls like overripe apples from a tree .. I do not advocate finding the switchman and putting him at eleven years old (this goes without saying) ...
I advocate that for a long time it was time to restore order even in such a crucial industry as the space ...
By the way, it was not just money that barked ... It was money that could have been used much more efficiently ... Not for theft and sawing, but for the same pensions, medicine, etc.
They stole, sawed, here - a rocket fall ... So no budgets will be enough ... For the "electorate", of course ...

[Old26]

Quote: Wasiliy1985

Oh is it? And what will the Soyuz be launched to the ISS? As far as I know, the ISS program is still alive and so far, even the Americans are not writing it off for scrap.

I apologize. While I was fixing something in the previous post, I was fixing it to the point that part of the message disappeared. It was the penultimate Soyuz-U missile. They will no longer produce and operate it. The last one (serial number T15000-145) will be used by Progress-MS5 this year. In the future, the "progress" will be launched on the version of the Soyuz-2-1a, and the cosmonauts on the ISS on what the "Soyuz FG"

[Justme]

I recently watched videos that I made at work shortly before leaving the space industry ...

... Well, this is complete idiocy .. And it was decided to stake on this "Kindergarten" ...

In the private firm where I work now, the developer floor is a tough "fight club" ...
A couple of months ago, when the salary at the space research institute became very bad, that "Kindergarten" Hope-and-Perspektiva "burst out for us to find a job ... well, they tried ... and left home with shaking knees ...

[Old26]

Quote: weksha50

Often ... too often ... some positive dynamics

Yes, there is no, in principle, positive dynamics. If you look at years and countries over the past 10 years (the top three countries are Russia, the USA, and China), then China is in a better position (the ratio of accidents to all launches). He has only 4 accidents for 151 launches, i.e. 2,65%
In second place is the United States. They have 8 accidents for 190 launches, i.e. 4,21%. On the third, we have 18 accidents at 289 launches, or 6,23%.
Of course, the main role is played by human facts in any manifestation - inadequate qualifications, lack or lack of control, violation of manufacturing technology, and also HZ what. But, fortunately, there is no positive dynamics. There are leaps, but no growth

If you look at the number of accidents by year over the past 10 years, then in
2007 year Russia (2), USA (2)
2008 year Russia (1), USA (1)
year 2009. Russia (1), USA (1), China (1)
2010 year. Russia 1)
year 2011. Russia (3), USA (1), China (1)
2012 year. Russia 1)
year 2013. Russia (2), China (1)
2014 year Russia (2), USA (1)
2015 year Russia (3), USA (2)
year 2016. Russia (1), China (1)

[alexey1213]

The definition most likely does not carry any specifics. The pump bushings have long been sharpened by CNC. Let's say that we accidentally missed the marriage, then the pump passed the strait test having passed all the parameters. About foreign objects it is nonsense if you didn’t stuff anything there specially. The precedent has already when aluminum seals were found on Khrunichev’s engine nozzles. Aluminum is not friends with heptyl. Such commission conclusions will not lead to a solution to the problem.

[bald]

If to be objective, then for some reason we are silent about other versions. It may sound corny. And if someone helped from outside. A specialist at a certain stage of verification can do this (I do not want to blame anyone). You think if the defense industry, then that's it, the iron wall, so it is most susceptible to attacks (I worked, I know). And one more thing. I think the MCC carefully watched the video at the time when it happened.

[Rom14]

Quote: cniza

Only he who does nothing is not mistaken, period.

You tell Lavrenty Pavlovich ... Or to his wife in the kitchen.

[Old26]

Quote: Rom14

Quote: cniza

Only he who does nothing is not mistaken, period.

You tell Lavrenty Pavlovich ... Or to his wife in the kitchen.

Are you sure that Lavrenty Pavlovich always always put to the wall? No need to make a monster out of him, who only did what he shot. Otherwise, we would never know the name of Korolev, Tupolev and others

[gridasov]

And you are right! A person, especially a creative workforce, cannot create an effective intellectual product if he feels oppressed and enslaved. Everything is apparently not quite as they paint. I know this from myself. Effective reasoning and thoughts do not come at times of satiety and all-encompassing well-being, that's for sure. But when they come and how to stimulate them not many know