How they killed Spartacists. Bloody suppression of the January Uprising in Berlin

452
January 12 1919 in Berlin was suppressed by the famous January Uprising, which is also called the "Spartacist Uprising". It was one of the most important episodes in the attempt of the Communist Party of Germany to make a revolution in the post-war country and establish a Soviet republic. At that time, as along the chain, armed uprisings broke out in Germany and the countries that formed at the site of the disintegrated Austro-Hungarian Empire. The communists and socialists were impressed by the victory of the October revolution in Russia and hoped that they would be able to overthrow their governments. One such attempt was the November 1918 revolution of the year in Germany.

As you know, the initial episode of the November Revolution was the appearance of sailors in Kiel on November 4, 1918. German sailors fleetOutraged by the attempt of the naval command to send ships to attack the British fleet, which would mean the certain death of German ships with crews, they rebelled. At first, the authorities arrested about a thousand disgruntled sailors, but then, when most of the crews rebelled, the arrested were released. Kiel was in the hands of the rebels, who formed the Soviets of sailors, and messengers dispersed throughout Germany, reporting the beginning of revolutionary uprisings in Kiel. This news was gladly received by the Communists from the Spartak group, the left wing of the Social Democrats and the anarchists. In the cities of the country began to create workers' councils. Seeing that the revolution in Germany is inevitable, and fearing that the country could follow the path of Soviet Russia, the country's leadership took a restrained decision. 9 November 1918 announced the Kaiser’s abdication of the Prussian and imperial thrones, a new government was formed headed by Frederick Ebert (pictured) - the leader of the Social Democrats, who were in moderate positions. However, this event did not entail an immediate stabilization of the political situation in the country. In a number of German cities, clashes continued, the most violent of which were the Christmas battles in Berlin 23-25 December 1918.



The end of December 1918 was marked by the creation of the Communist Party of Germany, which was to play a very important role in the political life of the country over the next two decades. The core of the Union of Spartacus, which emerged from the left wing of the Social Democrats, became the core of the Communist Party of Germany. Her main ideologue was Rosa Luxemburg (1871-1919, pictured) - a well-known political figure, philosopher and economist who was in anti-war positions during World War I (for which she was persecuted by the German authorities). The Communist Party was destined to lead the "Rise of the Spartacists" that began in the first days of January 1919. The formal reason for the new revolutionary uprising was the decision of 4 of January 1919 by the head of government Friedrich Ebert to dismiss the policeman of Berlin Emil Eichhorn, a representative of the left wing of the Communist journalist and politician from the post. Representatives of the left wing of the Social Democrats and the Communists were very unhappy with the resignation of Eichhorn. January 5 1919 in Berlin began a grand demonstration of independent Social Democrats and Communists, in which about 150 thousands of people participated. The demonstrators demanded the resignation of the Ebert government, which they accused of being a counter-revolutionary.

In the evening of the same day, groups of demonstrators seized the buildings of a number of German newspapers. For the leadership of the speech, the Provisional Revolutionary Committee was formed, which included representatives of the left wing of the Independent Social Democratic Party and the Communist Party of Germany. The majority in the committee were independent social democrats. The leaders of independent social democrats and communists did not plan to seize power in the country in their own hands these days. They sought to avoid violence during protests. But since the majority of ordinary protesters were much more radical, the leaders had no choice but to proclaim a policy of overthrowing the Ebert government. This slogan was raised by the leaders of the KPD Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg. Against the anti-government uprising, the Bolshevik emissary Karl Radek came out, who arrived in Berlin in mid-December 1918. He insisted on the fallacy of the KKE’s policy and demanded that the party abandon plans to overthrow the Social Democratic government.

How they killed Spartacists. Bloody suppression of the January Uprising in Berlin
- Demonstration 5 January 1919 g

While the communist and social democratic leaders were arguing about whether or not to demand the overthrow of the government, the Provisional Revolutionary Committee again called on the working people of Berlin to demonstrate. It took place on January 6 and gathered even more participants than the previous performance. Although part of the revolutionary activists were set up for an armed uprising, they did not manage to enlist the support of military units and divisions. Despite the fact that left-wing radical sentiments were also very strong in the troops, the city garrison preferred to maintain neutrality. The soldiers did not suppress the workers who spoke, but they were not going to join them. Even sailors from the People’s Marine Division, known for their radical positions, did not support the performance. Thus, the speech was left without substantial support from the military, and this very moment alone showed that in the near future it would end in failure.

However, the leaders of the speech were in no hurry to show revolutionary determination. For example, the very Emil Eichhorn, whose dismissal started the first demonstration, refused to open weapons warehouses and arm working squads. Negotiations were started with government representatives, and Karl Kautsky, the most famous and oldest political figure of the Social Democratic Party, acted as an intermediary. In the meantime, the Ebert government, after deliberations, decides to suppress a speech threatening his power with military force.

Gustav Noske, a prominent Social Democrat, a veteran of the party, was appointed to lead the uprising. Noske himself was a worker - from the age of fourteen he worked as a basket weaver, in 1884 he joined the Social Democrats, became one of the founders of the trade union of weavers and woodworkers. In 1906, the labor leader Noske was first elected to the Reichstag. In the German parliament, he was responsible for military and colonial issues. During the First World War, supported the patriotic line, like most other right-wing Social Democrats. It was Gustav Noske who managed to establish a dialogue with the rebel sailors in Kiel in November 1918, and to achieve a normalization of the situation in the city. This contributed to the further growth of the influence of Noske in the German government. Ebert instructed him to answer for military questions. Therefore, when mass demonstrations began in Berlin in January 1919, Noske was assigned to assemble military units loyal to the government and prepare them to suppress the uprising.

Subordinate Noske troops were concentrated in Dalem - a suburb of Berlin. It was here that Noske assembled the units that were to become the grave-diggers of the “Spartacist Rebellion”. While the government was preparing punitive forces to suppress the speeches, the revolutionary leaders did not dare to take more radical actions. This gave the government of Ebert a very big advantage. 11 January 1919, a compound of 2-3 numbers of thousands of soldiers under the command of Gustav Noske entered Berlin. The first thing to be done was to release the Forverts newspaper and the Berlin Police Bureau. Revolutionary activists tried to send their representatives to the negotiations with the commanders of the units, but the soldiers of Noske ruthlessly dealt with the parliamentarians. They were beaten to death, captured activists were shot.

The brutality of Gustav Noske, a Social Democrat and a hereditary worker, to his, in essence, class brothers and political ideology, was impressive. The speeches of the independent Social Democrats and the Communists in Berlin were suppressed with such incredible cruelty, which the Kaiser government did not decide at the time. January 15 The uprising leaders, Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, were also in the hands of the punishers. Their detention and interrogation was led by Captain Waldemar Pabst (pictured) - the commander of the volunteer corps, Freikor, known for his right-wing beliefs. A participant in the First World War, since 1919, Pabst served in the Guards Cavalry Rifle Division. When Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht fell into the hands of Pabst and his people, he gathered the officers of the unit and held a meeting where it was decided to deal with the leaders of the Communist Party of Germany. It is known that this massacre was sanctioned by Gustav Noske himself, who could not but be informed about the capture of the highest-ranking communist leaders. He was aware of the impending murder of the leaders of the KKE and the head of government, Friedrich Ebert, with whom Captain Pabst had a telephone conversation.

During the interrogation, both Luxembourg and Liebknecht were severely beaten with a rifle butt. The ex-welder 44-year-old Otto Runge, who served as a private hussar in the Guards Cavalry Rifle Division, directly beaten up. After Liebknecht and Luxembourg were beaten unconscious, they were shot dead. The headshot of Karl Liebknecht was made by Lieutenant Rudolf Lipman - a cavalry officer, before the war - a lawyer, a native of a wealthy family of Jewish origin. Rosa Luxemburg was shot by Lieutenant Hermann Souchon - a naval officer who volunteered to join the frykor Captain Pabst after the war. In addition, it is known that Captain Horst von Pflugk-Hartung and Lieutenants Heinrich Stiege and Kurt Vogel took part in the massacre of Liebknecht and Luxembourg. The murder of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht put a bloody end to the defeat of the January uprising of the Spartacists.



The defeat of the uprising in Berlin and the death of Liebknecht and Luxembourg were the strongest blows to the communist movement of Germany. By the way, it is worth mentioning the fate of the direct killers of Liebknecht and Luxembourg. Captain Waldemar Pabst (1880-1970) lived a very long and, in a sense, successful life. After the defeat of the Kappa putsch, he left for Austria, where he participated in the creation and development of the Austro-fascist movement, then returned to Germany, where he headed the Society for the Study of Fascism. Pabst never joined the NSDAP, moreover - sometimes clouds "gathered over him", but the captain always managed to get out of the water dry. He even had to emigrate to Switzerland. During the war, he was engaged in organizing the supply of weapons for the Wehrmacht. Pabst returned to his homeland only in the 1955 year and until the end of his life he was engaged in the arms trade. He died at the age of ninety in the year 1970 - half a century after the massacre of Liebknecht and Luxembourg.

Lieutenant Hermann Souchon, who shot Rosa Luxemburg, emigrated to Finland - after the authorities of the Weimar Republic nevertheless tried to bring him to criminal responsibility for the murder of the communist leaders. In 1933, he returned to Germany, served in the Luftwaffe, where he rose to the rank of colonel. Participated in the Second World War, then lived in Germany, led the Protestant social organization. Souchon also lived to a very old age and died in the year 1982 at the age of 87. Almost until the end of his life, he maintained contacts with German neo-Nazis.

Private Otto Runge, who beat Liebknecht and Luxembourg with his butt, was less fortunate. He retired in 1941, and in 1945, he was arrested in Berlin by Soviet troops and soon, on September 1, 1945, died under arrest. Lieutenant Rudolf Lipman, the Third Reich recalled his Jewish origin - the officer was dismissed from the judicial service, despite his military merit and two Iron crosses. Soon he left for the USA, his further traces are lost.

Gustav Noske, who directly led the uprising, was dismissed from public service after Adolf Hitler came to power. But he was regularly paid his pension. In 1944, Noske was arrested for participating in the Social Democratic underground. He came out two weeks before the capture of Berlin. The following year, 1946, the 78-year-old politician passed away. He continued until the last to defend the line accusing Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg, as well as the Communists and left-wing Social Democrats in general, being alien to the interests of the German working class.

The main problem of the rebels, which manifested itself already in the first hours of the speech, was the lack of a clear program of action and strong leaders who could lead. Germany did not give its own Vladimir Ilyich Lenin. The leaders of the independent social democrats and the communists hesitated, is it worth starting an armed uprising, does it make sense to seize power? These fluctuations played into the hands of the government, which took advantage of the temporary advantage and was able to organize in the suburbs of the capital a camp of loyal to the government troops recruited from frikor fighters who, for the most part, held far-right views.

The most important reason for the defeat of the workers' speeches was the fact that he was not supported even by the left-wing sympathizers who were sympathetic to the left. The total lack of support from the military and doomed the plans of revolutionaries to failure. If in Russia in October 1917, the Bolsheviks came to power with the direct support of the revolutionary soldiers and sailors who played a major role in the revolution, in Berlin, January 1919, the situation developed quite differently. Subsequently, many eyewitnesses to the events said that the rebels had every chance in the evening of January 5 to take power in Berlin into their own hands. Who knows how the turn would turn stories?
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  1. +5
    12 January 2017 06: 57
    . The sailors of the German fleet, indignant at the attempt of the naval command to send ships to attack the British fleet,

    The soldiers were outraged by sending them to the front. Gotta
    1. +4
      12 January 2017 15: 30
      hmm ... pretty dumb sarcasm.
      would you go to certain death in the last days of the war for the interests of large capitalists?
      1. +2
        13 January 2017 12: 15
        would you go to certain death in the last days of the war for the interests of large capitalists?

        The interests of the capitalists are far from there. In addition to the interests of the capitalists, there are still the interests of their country. What such revolts lead to can be seen in the example of Russia - material and human losses are incomparable with any war.
  2. 0
    12 January 2017 06: 59
    . The sailors of the German fleet, indignant at the attempt of the naval command to send ships to attack the British fleet,

    What a tall calm. The soldiers are outraged by the attempt to send them to the front
  3. +7
    12 January 2017 07: 38
    The main problem of the rebels, which manifested itself in the first hours of the speech, was the lack of a clear program of action and strong leaders who could lead. Germany and gave its own Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

    Vobschem slammed. The sailors generally demanded money. Salary. But not land and will.
    Germany SO gave that Ilyich never dreamed of.
    On January 15, 1919, the leaders of the uprising — Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht — were in the hands of the punishers.

    How did they end up there? There is an assumption that curators from Moscow had a hand in this matter. Comrade Radek. Influential German communists were very uncomfortable. Interfered with Moscow puppeteers
    The cruelty of Gustav Noske, a Social Democrat and a hereditary worker, towards his brothers, in essence, in the class and in political ideology, was impressive.
    This is nonsense about classes. After the 33rd, the Communists threw a shaft into the ranks of the SA. And the NSDAP is a socialist, workers' party.
    The most important reason for the defeat of the workers ’speech was that

    That in the 19th it was already clear to everyone what exactly the proletarian revolution was all about. The Germans didn’t want this at home

    In general, the article is very interesting. Respect and respect to the author
    1. +4
      12 January 2017 09: 28
      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
      The Germans didn’t want this at home

      it’s a pity that Kerensky wasn’t able to do the same with us, he wagged his ass, like ... sorry, a woman of easy virtue.
      1. +3
        12 January 2017 10: 16
        veteran66 it is necessary to look at the root, the inability of Nikolashka spawned with the help of the allies of Kerensky, who began the collapse of the empire! wassat
        1. +3
          12 January 2017 10: 25
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          Nikolashka’s inability spawned

          caused what and the inability of whom ?, you can express your thoughts more clearly. "Excuse me, who was the question?" M. Bulgakov "Heart of a Dog"
      2. +7
        12 January 2017 13: 47
        Quote: veteran66
        it’s a pity that Kerensky also could not


        Kerensky was just as socialist as Ebert. But in Germany, the German Communists turned out to be much more sensible as well: they did not incite and provoke the army, playing on base instincts and hatred, realizing that this could lead to innumerable victims and sufferings of Germany.

        They tried to win the political struggle, but lost: the majority, nevertheless, wanted a quiet development, not a civil massacre. And for the attempted coup d'etat, they were outlawed and destroyed.

        Plus, Ebert and Noske crushed the hydra in the bud.

        How many millions of victims and destructions were Germany avoided thanks to these courageous people? I think that many ....
        1. +2
          12 January 2017 14: 30
          Quote: Olgovich
          But in Germany, the German Communists turned out to be much more sensible.

          They instructed, plus you, but why did the Communists get so stupid for us?
    2. +5
      12 January 2017 10: 52
      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
      The Germans didn’t want this at home
      5 years of war: from the fall of 1917 in the South of Russia, until the fall of 1922 in the Far East. A lot of land given away. The Bolshevik sect does not see its own guilt at close range: "The British did everything with the Japanese and they bought the traitors, but we have nothing to do with it - we play with the ball."
      1. +5
        12 January 2017 11: 28
        PS They managed to end the war only after the Bolsheviks backtracked, introduced the NEP in 1921. But even after that, they continued to rob peasants and foment war in Central Asia until 1929. Why not American globalizers? They are also for all the good.
        1. +4
          12 January 2017 11: 44
          ZZY Yes, and sex, sex liberated as they could. No, certainly, modern globalists have stolen the method from the Bolsheviks.
      2. +2
        12 January 2017 21: 32
        Stanislav, I agree with you that the Bolsheviks were not white and fluffy. It was only then that we were told good-quality fairy tales about the good grandfather, etc.
    3. +4
      12 January 2017 14: 35
      Quote: Gerard Roussillon
      This is nonsense about classes.

      If it is "nonsense" but it works, then it is not nonsense. You should know that the NSDAP is completely a National Socialist Party, and this is not the same as a socialist one. This is not a "workers" party, but a "mass" party. The use of the category "mass" and social demagogy ("socialist" and "workers" or "popular") is a clear indication of fascism and Nazism, the ideology of the bourgeoisie.
    4. +4
      12 January 2017 21: 26
      Comrade Gerard, I also read somewhere: Rosa Luxemburg was trapped in the "prayers" of Karl Radek.
      I am not a communist, but I respected and respect bright personalities like Rosa Luxemburg
  4. +4
    12 January 2017 07: 48
    Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht. Their detention and interrogation was led by Captain Waldemar Pabst.
    In the future, a participant in the Kappa putsch. The organizer of the paramilitary forces of the Austrian Heimwehr. Fascist politician in recent years of the Weimar Republic. Well-known arms dealer, employee of the military supply apparatus of the Third Reich. At the same time, he established contacts with Allen Dulles. Weapon merchant in Germany. Died in 1970. Thank you Ilya, excellent article ...
  5. +4
    12 January 2017 09: 12
    The main problem of the rebels, which manifested itself in the first hours of the speech, was the lack of a clear program of action and strong leaders who could lead. Germany and gave its own Vladimir Ilyich Lenin.

    "There are few real violent
    So there are no leaders ... "
    VS Vysotsky "Letter to the Editor".
    1. +1
      12 January 2017 09: 28
      Quote: V.ic
      "There are few real violent
      So there are no leaders ... "

      +100500
  6. +6
    12 January 2017 14: 38
    Germany after the defeat of 1918 was under external control. The "social democratic" government at this time is an analogue of our "liberal Westernizers" of the 1991 model, a committee for pumping out indemnities from the population. It was this policy that led to the victory of National Socialism in 1933. The only alternative for Germany was the victory of the communists, but then a world socialist revolution according to Marx would have taken place in Europe. This explains such cruelty in the suppression of the Spartak movement.
  7. +1
    12 January 2017 15: 31
    uncle Murzik,
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    I enjoy poking you into facts face!

    but I don't get pleasure from reading your opuses "niachom" I, in my opinion, wrote in Russian in white
    In addition, Mannerheim did not fight in Russia
    , our dialogue (and sometimes it seems to me that you have a monologue) about white and red, so, following your opus, who was Mannerheim for? For the whites? So he killed Russian officers. For the reds? So his jäger detachments of the Reds smashed. I remind you that our dialogue is about whites against reds, and not about Finns against Russians, especially since you started about Mannerheim, so poke your facts yourself. S!
    1. 0
      13 January 2017 06: 06
      veteran66 yes firstly it’s not opuses but links to sources, secondly your liberal cliches that aren’t confirmed by any links other than your fantasies are not interesting to read! It gives me pleasure to poke your nose into facts!
      1. 0
        13 January 2017 06: 24
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        links to sources

        there’s zero sense in your links, because they’re off topic, but if you’ve got into a puddle, have the power to admit it, and don’t turn around like a skillet.
        1. +1
          13 January 2017 10: 50
          veteran66 Well, what are you fidgeting about on the pope? So Mannerheim is already not a citizen of RI, before that you wrote the opposite! belay In this regard, attention is drawn to the fact that: firstly, the main base of the white Finns remained outside the first strike of the Red forces; secondly, the possibility of a German landing party is ignored, about which the red command could not but know. Although the directive of 3 in March, and there is a mention of a strategic reserve, which was supposed to concentrate in the area of ​​Tavastgust - Rakhimyaki, it could not be created. Forces of red small detachments were scattered on a wide front from the Gulf of Bothnia to Lake Ladoga. No measures were taken to protect the coast - and this allowed the Germans to freely land.
          By March 10, the white front proved to be fairly stable. The Brest peace forced the Russian Soviet government to withdraw its troops from Finland. The weakening of the Red Finns base allowed White not only to defend successfully, but also to launch an energetic counterattack on Tammerfors.
          After five days of shelling and the desperate resistance of the garrison, the city was captured by whites. Most of the prisoners were shot. Mannerheim begins to transfer the bulk of its forces to the Karelian sector. Once again, the North against the South, or the Civil War ...
          topwar.ru ›105735-vnov-sever-protiv-yuga-ili ... voyna
          ...
          1. 0
            13 January 2017 14: 15
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            so Mannerheim is no longer a citizen of RI, before that you wrote the opposite!

            at that moment it was already gone, since RI no longer existed, and Lenin was allowed to freely sail in Finland, this is the first, second: I repeat once again our debate (the conversation between the blind and the deaf) about the civil war in Russia, not Finland, where Mannerheim (smart man) dispersed the red riffraff to the damn mother.
            1. +1
              13 January 2017 15: 08
              So, the Provisional Government of Russia started the secession of Finland! On March 7 (20), 1917, it restored the autonomy of Finland! At the request of the Social Democratic faction, the Finnish Sejm adopted the Law on Power on July 5 (18), 1917, which limited the competence of the Provisional Government to military and foreign policy issues. In response, the Provisional Government dispersed the Diet on July 18 (31). Then the bourgeois-nationalist part of Finnish society proceeded to the creation of armed units, which were called shyutskor (from the Swedish word Skyddskar - security corps). It is funny that in this matter the Germans were 16 years behind the Finns. They have Schutzstaffeln - security units (abbreviated as SS) appeared only in 1934.

              In October 1917, new elections to the Sejm took place, as a result of which the bourgeoisie and nationalists gained a majority. Scott, Section VIII. Soviet-Finnish wars of 1918-1922 ...
              tinlib.ru ›istorija / severnye_voiny_rossii / p9.php
              1. 0
                13 January 2017 15: 24
                Quote: Uncle Murzik
                So, the Provisional Government of Russia started the secession of Finland! On March 7 (20), 1917, it restored the autonomy of Finland! At the request of the Social Democratic faction, the Finnish Sejm adopted the Law on Power on July 5 (18), 1917, which limited the competence of the Provisional Government to military and foreign policy issues. In reply The interim government dispersed July 18 (31) Diet.

                great conclusion! Just a brilliant example of pulling the right facts by the ears, bravo !!! fool
        2. +1
          13 January 2017 10: 54
          veteran66 how nice to poke you into the facts! On March 15, General Mannerheim signed an order to speak of three Finnish invasion groups to conquer East Karelia. Mannerheim approved the “Wallenius Plan” [119], that is, the plan for the seizure of the Russian Territory along the Petsamo – Kola Peninsula –– White Sea – Lake Onega –– Svir – Ladoga Lake. Mannerheim also put forward a plan to liquidate Petrograd as the capital of Russia and to turn the city and the adjacent territory of satellite towns (Tsarskoye Selo, Gatchina, Peterhof, Oranienbaum, etc.) into a “free city-republic” like Danzig.

          On March 18, in the village of Ukhta, occupied by Finnish troops, the “Provisional Committee on East Karelia” gathered, which adopted a resolution on the accession of East Karelia to Finland. The aim of the Finnish invasion of Karelia and the Kola Peninsula was not only territorial acquisitions. A huge amount of weapons, food, and various valuable equipment delivered by the Allies in 1916-1918 accumulated in Murmansk. Before the revolution, the tsarist administration was unable to organize the proper removal of all this, and during the years of the revolution, the export stopped altogether.

          At the end of April 1918, a large detachment of white Finns went skiing to the port of Pechenga. At the request of the Murmansk Council of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies, the English Admiral Kemp ordered the detachment of Russian Red Guards to land on the cruiser Cochrane. On May 3, Cochrane arrived in Pechenga, where it landed the Red Guards. To help them, the commander of the cruiser Farm sent a detachment of English sailors under the command of Captain Scott Rank 2. Section VIII. Soviet-Finnish wars of 1918-1922 ...
          tinlib.ru ›istorija / severnye_voiny_rossii / p9.php
          1. 0
            13 January 2017 14: 23
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            how nice to poke you into the facts!

            Well, I’m poking and I’m taking you into yours as his .. facts. Let me remind you, we are talking about the civil war in Russia: red versus white
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            General Mannerheim signed an order to speak of three Finnish invasion groups to conquer East Karelia.

            tinlib.ru ›istorija / severnye_voiny_rossii / p9.php
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            March 18 in the village of Ukhta, occupied by Finnish troops
            ibid: tinlib.ru ›istorija / severnye_voiny_rossii / p9.php
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            The aim of the Finnish invasion of Karelia and the Kola Peninsula was not only territorial acquisitions.
            from there: tinlib.ru ›istorija / severnye_voiny_rossii / p9.php
            and then even cooler:
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            At the request of the Murmansk Council of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies, the English Admiral Kemp ordered the detachment of Russian Red Guards to be mounted on the cruiser Cochrane. On May 3, Cochrane arrived in Pechenga, where it landed the Red Guards. To help them, the commander of the cruiser Farm sent a detachment of English sailors under the command of Captain Scott Rank 2. Section VIII. Soviet-Finnish wars of 1918-1922 ...
            tinlib.ru ›istorija / severnye_voiny_rossii / p9.php

            this is by the way about the "intervention" against Soviet Russia. And most importantly the source
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            Soviet-Finnish war of 1918-1922

            I hasten to remind you that Finland was not a member of the Entente, and then suddenly you forgot. You "Comrade Murzeg" even though you yourself read what you are quoting. For the umpteenth time, you have to wash away from your ..., you are our self-exposer hi
    2. +1
      13 January 2017 15: 18
      veteran66 so you lied again by writing "Besides, Mannerheim did not fight in Russia"! lol Let us turn to the sources "In January 1919, Finnish troops seized the Porosozernaya volost in Karelia, adjacent to the Rebolsk volost. In February 1919, at a peace conference in Versailles, Finland demanded to annex the whole of Karelia and the Kola Peninsula. Years the Finns conducted limited military operations mainly in the regions of Rebola and Porosozero.

      Under the leadership of MANNERGEY, the Finnish command developed a plan of attack on the territory of the RSFSR. According to him, after the snow melts, the South Group (regular units of the Finnish army) begins an offensive in the direction Olonets - Lodeynoye Pole. The northern group (Shyutskor, Swedish volunteers and immigrants from Karelia) advances in the direction of Veshkelitsa - Kungozero - Syamozero.

      The offensive of the Finnish troops Mannerheim coordinated with the white general N.N. Yudenich, whose troops were in Estonia. For this union, Mannerheim demanded from Yudenich Karelia and the Kola Peninsula. On April 3, Yudenich agreed to give Karelia, and promised to give the Kola Peninsula after the construction of a direct railway line to Arkhangelsk.

      On April 21-22, 1919, the White Finnish troops unexpectedly crossed the Russian-Finnish state border at several points. Not encountering any resistance on their way due to the absence of red troops in this sector, the White Finns occupied Vidlitsa on April 21, on April 23 - Toloksa, on the evening of April 23 - Olonets, on April 24, large forces captured Veshkelitsa and by April 25 approached Pryazha, threatening directly Petrozavodsk ". Section VIII. Soviet-Finnish wars of 1918-1922 ....
      tinlib.ru ›istorija / severnye_voiny_rossii / p9.php! н
      what again with your nose into the facts of you lol
      1. 0
        13 January 2017 15: 31
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        so you lied again by writing "Besides, Mannerheim did not fight in Russia"!

        no need to distort the facts, we talked about the civil war in Russia, and not about the Finnish war on the territory of Russia.
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        The offensive of the Finnish troops Mannerheim coordinated with the white general N.N. Yudenich, whose troops were in Estonia. For this union, Mannerheim demanded from Yudenich Karelia and the Kola Peninsula.

        again we draw facts to our ears, the war was for the territory, and not for power in Russia. Maybe you should be offered to work in Kerry’s apparatus, they like such virtuosos. So again to you your nose from your this ... facts to wash laughing
        1. +1
          13 January 2017 15: 50
          Well, I’m lying around again !!!! belay so Mannerheim doesn’t go to war in Russia! you probably don’t see the name in the sources of the white finns! lol
          1. 0
            13 January 2017 16: 01
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            I’m all lying around again !!!! so Mannerheim comes out in Russia did not fight!

            stand up, fought, but not in the civil war, but during it, since you fought not for power in Russia, but for its territory (this is the second time I’ve written, it’s not possible to reach you once) you are still Poles here with Pilsudski plug in to increase the scope.
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            white finns
            it’s not seen, the commissars all who climbed Russia were white, except for the Entente countries, they were invaders, and some blacks would have climbed, they would have become white blacks, what to take from the Bolsheviks. There, even the Poles and those became white)))))
  8. 0
    12 January 2017 16: 21
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    You may notice that the Communist Party is in the Russian Duma

    in the form of clowns, along with the other three laughing
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    and monuments to Lenin in almost every city!

    Well, yes, not all such barbarians as the commies, monuments, unlike them, do not demolish, which does not paint the Bolsheviks at all. True, these ugly pedestals are in no way comparable to the beauty and grandeur of the monuments to the autocrats in St. Petersburg (not Leningrad !!!) in this case your dried-up grandfather Lenin was right: "Better less, but better"
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    one thing pleases that the "Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov dynasty" not when it will no longer be at the helm of Russia!

    it pleases me too, the totalitarian regime, whether it be communism, fascism, Nazism or the absolute monarchy (autocracy) in our time will not bring benefits to Russia. Only democratic government will bear fruit.
    1. +2
      12 January 2017 21: 54
      veteran66, I agree with you that the monuments to Lenin are more than miserable and not comparable to the monuments to the autocrats, but in this case the talent of an architect plays a role. For example: Mikeshin "The Millennium of Russia", "Ekaterina 2" with us, or the author of "Lenin on the armored car" heaven and earth!
      But what I’m doing maydaunas with monuments, my benefactors, I can’t pick up words
      1. +1
        12 January 2017 22: 09
        Quote: Monarchist
        but in this case, the talent of the architect plays a role.

        it is clear that the quality of the monument depends more on the master than on the sitter)))
    2. +1
      13 January 2017 06: 11
      even according to your perverted logic, there are monuments to the Russian autocrats in Leningrad that were not destroyed by the "barbarians" of the communists! belayWell, maybe you didn’t notice from the gaps in your education that we have been under democratic (liberal) governance for more than 25 years and what have we achieved? lol
      1. 0
        13 January 2017 06: 29
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        we live and eat what was created during the USSR,

        by the 90th year, from socialism, we got empty store shelves, a worthwhile production, an empty treasury and a lot of debts, for the maintenance of which we spent more money than to pay off. So what are we eating?
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        there are monuments to Russian autocrats in Leningrad not destroyed by "barbarians" communists!

        I myself am surprised how they did not get there, but how many were destroyed. Monuments to Alexander II the Liberator stood in all large settlements, and where are they now? I’m not talking about temples. Even the graves of soldiers and officers of the 1st World War were destroyed as "White Guard"
        1. +1
          13 January 2017 07: 52
          veteran66 continue your educational program! The USSR was the second power in the world, unlike tsarist Russia, and in many ways the first! you see, Alexander is gone, and there are and will be monuments to Lenin! wassat
          1. +1
            13 January 2017 08: 27
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            The USSR was the second power in the world, unlike tsarist Russia, and in many ways the first!

            so what, each power has ups and downs, only I’d better live in the fifth or tenth power, but freely than in the first but on the chain.
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            You see, there’s no Alexander, but there are and will be monuments to Lenin!

            so it just characterizes the Bolsheviks as barbarians, and the monuments to Lenin will disappear by themselves, tk. They do not represent any artistic or historical value (with rare exceptions) You would have better dealt with your educational program, managed to plant four mistakes in three lines, even to the "victim of EG" you do not reach)))
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. +1
                13 January 2017 10: 34
                Quote: Uncle Murzik
                me and my ancestors no one oppressed lived freely

                you see, chickens in a chicken coop or pigs in a pen (don't take it as an insult, this is a purely allegorical comparison) also move freely and do whatever they want, but in the pen (chicken coop) this is a key concept. Or do you deny the concept of the "iron curtain". Where do we also get the concept of "defectors", "dissidents" ?? If this is freedom for you, then there is nothing to argue about. Back to communism !!! Only this show is without me and my children.
                Quote: Uncle Murzik
                but there’s no mistake with anyone, I’m in a hurry and am at the service!
                do not confuse mistakes and slips of the tongue (and here you crawl and do not want to admit) if I am a victim of EG, then I am ashamed of Soviet education. Probably, at school, as now in the service, they were engaged in extraneous matters. These are the "prokhvesionals" now serve, and then they say that Khrushch-Gorbi-Krasnos is to blame for everything ... who else is there on the list?
          2. 0
            13 January 2017 09: 40
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            The USSR was the second power in the world, unlike tsarist Russia, and in many ways the first!

            and for what indicators of the first and second, please explain to me, illiterate)))
            1. +1
              13 January 2017 10: 17
              veteran66 well, so it’s no longer fixable! liberastia is not treated! wassat
              1. 0
                13 January 2017 10: 40
                Quote: Uncle Murzik
                Well, this is no longer fixable! Librasty is not treated!

                it's curiosity, so where are the facts?
            2. +1
              13 January 2017 10: 30
              veteran66 everything is simple on economic indicators !!! throw off? belay
              1. 0
                13 January 2017 10: 54
                Quote: Uncle Murzik
                throw off?

                yeah, but I don’t have
  9. 0
    12 January 2017 16: 29
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    and the Czechoslovak corps and the "Entente" troops are also submitted by RI? and these are also Russians:

    The Czechoslovak corps, without the Reds from Russia, was moving faster than a steam locomotive, if they hadn’t caught their civil war on the road, they would have faded from Russia. But they put them in such conditions, I had to fight. The Entente also did not come to conquer, but at the request of a legitimate government, with tasks partially reminiscent of the tasks of our OKSVA. So do not distort the facts. There would be no October revolution and the ensuing civil war (the Russian people with the Russian), there would be no foreigners in Russia.
    1. +1
      13 January 2017 06: 18
      veteran66 And at the request of what legitimate government did the "Entente" come to Russia? Just answer with facts and references, and not with trepidation! belay
      1. 0
        13 January 2017 06: 37
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        And at the request of which legal government did the "Entente" come to Russia?
        On December 3, 1917, a special conference was convened with the participation of the United States, Britain, France and its allied countries, at which a decision was made to delimit zones of interests in the territories of the former Russian Empire and establish contacts with national democratic governments. This is from the same place where you cited a link to the zones of demarcation of the influence of the Entente.
        1. +1
          13 January 2017 07: 45
          veteran66 and you still write that Russia is not a colony! you are lying again! where is the link to the request of the legitimate government for the intervention of the Entente? belay
          1. 0
            13 January 2017 08: 29
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            and you still write that Russia is not a colony!

            Russia colony ???? Well, a reference to this statement? And where is the link to the partition of Russia between the countries of the Entente?
            1. +1
              13 January 2017 13: 39
              veteran66 you yourself referred to these words: "On December 3, 1917, a special conference was held with the participation of the United States, England, France and their allied countries, at which a decision was made to delimit zones of interest in the territories of the former Russian Empire! Is it possible to divide an independent state into zones ? isn't this a colony! laughing
  10. +6
    12 January 2017 17: 16
    it is necessary, how many haters of communists are here ... Yes, in Russia there was a completely different situation. In Germany, there was no question of dismemberment. The peasant question was absent. The positions of the trade unions were strong enough. Yes, even the difference in mentality. That did not happen a full rebellion. And what happened otherwise than as unrest can not be called something.
    I do not understand the supporters of the February revolution. Did they really want to live in poverty and filth in a colony? Or do they all see themselves as nobles and manufacturers living abroad? Thanks must be said to the Bolsheviks who preserved the country.
    1. +1
      12 January 2017 19: 08
      Quote: Omich
      Did they really want to live in poverty and filth in a colony?

      Was Russia a colony? And then the Russian empire then?
      Quote: Omich
      Or do they all see themselves as nobles and manufacturers living abroad?

      I always ask in response to this question: Did the then society consisted only of nobles, manufacturers and poor peasants?
      Quote: Omich
      Thanks must be said to the Bolsheviks who preserved the country.

      They saved it so much that they lost millions of people and vast territories (the Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus, Central Asia). Thank you in truth!
      1. +2
        12 January 2017 22: 11
        Veteran66. I do not want to correct you (I agree with you in many respects), but still: 1 Stalin, a Bolshevik, revived almost the former greatness of RI. 2. The union was ruined by people with partners, but in fact they are not even women of the oldest profession, but I don't know who. What is it worth "tagged" was the same communist, and then forgot his "ideas". And Borya "red nose": ordered to destroy the Ipatiev House, then some kind of nonsense young, such a communist, already a feast for the eyes. Then: "You know, I made several circles around the Statue of Liberty and became freer and freer.
        1. +1
          12 January 2017 22: 48
          Quote: Monarchist
          Stalin, the Bolshevik, revived the almost former greatness of RI.

          And what do you think is the greatness of the country?
        2. 0
          13 January 2017 09: 35
          Quote: Monarchist
          revived almost the former greatness of RI

          I want to ask you, but in comparison with what period this greatness is measured. I mean, if you revived, then it means it has fallen. So I want to understand the time limits of this sinusoid.
          1. 0
            13 January 2017 17: 58
            Veteran66. At the very least, the Soviet Union was territorially in 1945 and now, as they say, "heaven and earth."
            Molotov's word, say the minister was so-so, meant much more than Lavrov. Then the hedgehog was clear that this was the opinion of Stalin, but they were afraid of him.
            Now I thought in passing: Chicherin was one of the most important foreign ministers, Litvinov was inferior in education to Chicherin, and Molotov was next to them ....
            1. +1
              13 January 2017 19: 08
              Quote: Monarchist
              At the very least, the Soviet Union was territorially in 1945 and now, as they say, "heaven and earth."

              did not understand, are we comparing the USSR and today's Russia? Or RI and the USSR? So RI was territorially larger than the USSR, and at a certain time it bore the unspoken title of "gendarme of Europe", and in general it was feared, concluding alliances with it, then against it. As for today's Russia, this is a derivative of the USSR, which is what it is. It's just that Stalin was before, what kind of rise in greatness are we talking about?
            2. +1
              14 January 2017 01: 29
              Quote: Monarchist
              Then the hedgehog was clear that this was the opinion of Stalin, but they were afraid of him.

              Who, shy to ask? No, in fact, who in the world was afraid of the weak and half-starved USSR and Dzhugashvili?
              Laughing at him? Yes.
              Made fun of him? Yes.
              But who in the world was afraid of him? And what was there to be afraid of?
              "Witnesses of socialism" are held captive by the myth that Dzhugashvili could do something and somewhere. Dzhugashvili could not really cope with Finland even. And many have noticed this. Therefore, the world wanted to sneeze at him. And up to 2 MV, and even more so after WW2.
    2. +2
      12 January 2017 19: 22
      Quote: Omich
      I do not understand the supporters of the February revolution.

      But on the account of the "February revolution" is it possible in more detail? To begin with, since when is the transfer of power from one autocrat to another called a "revolution"? Moreover, the peaceful transfer of power, and it was she who took place, does not even pull a palace coup.
      They memorized training manuals from the Bolsheviks (they called them "the science of history"), and spar on them like zombies.
      Quote: Omich
      Did they really want to live in poverty and filth in a colony?

      Those. capitalist countries live "in poverty and filth in the colonies"?
      And the backward and impoverished feudal countries like the USSR, which for 16 years was even a slave-owning country, then how do they live?
      How do you feel, actually? How can one write this in their right mind?
      Quote: Omich
      Or do they all see themselves as nobles and manufacturers living abroad?

      Nobility is a sign of a feudal country. In the USSR, the Bolsheviks (new nobles) were analogous to nobles. In bourgeois countries there are no estates.
      Quote: Omich
      Thanks must be said to the Bolsheviks who preserved the country.

      In fact, it ruined the country in 1918. By accomplishing the creeping reactionary (i.e. counter-revolutionary) coup in October 1917 - January 1918
      1. +1
        12 January 2017 19: 54
        Quote: JS20
        Moreover, the peaceful transfer of power, and it was she who took place, does not even draw a coup.

        Well, she was not peaceful - the king, if he signed the abdication, which is not a fact, then being arrested.
        1. +1
          12 January 2017 21: 04
          Quote: Dart2027
          the king, if he signed the abdication, which is not a fact, then being arrested.

          In principle, this does not matter.
          One autocrat transferred power to another autocrat. Peaceful or not peaceful, this is not so important.
          The important thing is that in February 1917. there was no revolution in Russia. But she was in March 1917. Bourgeois. And the emperor Michael II accomplished it. It’s completely peaceful.
          And already in October 1917. - January 1918 the Bolsheviks carried out their creeping reactionary (i.e. counter-revolutionary) coup. Those. in fact, the Bolsheviks are not revolutionaries, as they exposed themselves all the way, but kontriki.
          Well, what to do, Through the Looking Glass, it is in Africa, Through the Looking Glass. If the Bolsheviks write "black", then it should be read as "white." And that's how the Bolsheviks are.
          1. +1
            12 January 2017 21: 18
            Quote: JS20
            The important thing is that in February 1917. there was no revolution in Russia. But she was in March 1917. Bourgeois.

            Rather, they were links of one chain. First, Nicholas II was removed from power, then his brother.
            Quote: JS20
            in fact, the Bolsheviks are not revolutionaries, as they have exposed themselves all the way, but kontriki

            It all depends on what is meant by revolution. They established a new system - this is a fact. Another thing is that the idea was initially doomed to failure.
            1. +2
              12 January 2017 22: 21
              Quote: Dart2027
              Rather, they were links of one chain. First, Nicholas II was removed from power, then his brother.

              It doesn't really matter. It is important that the well-known "February revolution" did not actually take place. But there was an unknown March bourgeois revolution.
              Quote: Dart2027
              It all depends on what is meant by revolution.

              The term "revolution" has a well-established academic meaning. Here it should be followed.
              In short, the revolution is the transition of society from a lower high-energy economy to a higher-energy economy. And not just an armed booze of drunken sailor in the capital. Revolutions are made by revolutionaries.
              And exactly the opposite action, this is a reactionary coup. Those. the transition of society from a higher OEF to a lower one. Those. degradation of society. Reactionary coups are made by reactionaries. This, like revolutionaries, is just the opposite.
              However, there is one subtlety here, if the revolution in the country is not over, then the society is not sent to the previous state by the reactionaries, but by the counter-revolutionaries. Since the March Revolution of 1917. in Russia was not finished, then the Bolsheviks are not reactionaries, but counter-revolutionaries. In relation to this March revolution. Although they, as befits the reactionaries, carried out a reactionary coup.
              Quote: Dart2027
              They established a new system - this is a fact.

              Who told you that? They are? You have found someone to believe.
              To begin with, what is a formation? There is a definition of the Socio-Economic Formation (CEF). There is no "socialist" OEF in wildlife, the world knows only four OEF:
              1. Primitive communal
              2. Slaveholding
              3. Feudal
              4. Capitalist
              The Bolsheviks still insisted that there was (in the future) a fifth, communist. But this question can still be left to the next generations.
              What was the state of the Russian OEF before the start of the Bolshevik creeping reactionary coup? In a state of capitalist OEF. Since March 1917 As a result of the bourgeois revolution of Michael II.
              What state did the OEF of Russia / USSR come about as a result of the Bolshevik reactionary coup and the Civil War unleashed by the Bolsheviks? To the feudal OEF in the form of state capitalism, which in the USSR was called the NEP.
              We look above. What is the name of such degradation? The reaction coup. What are the names of the people who make the reactionary coup? Reactors or counter-revolutionaries, depending on the situation. Which term is appropriate for our situation? Counterrevolutionaries. Q.E.D.
              And everything else about "revolutionaries" is empty tales of the Bolsheviks. In general, in terms of lies, they were great masters. The storyteller Charles Perot and the fabulist Krylov nervously smoke on the sidelines.
              Quote: Dart2027
              Another thing is that the idea was initially doomed to failure.

              Perhaps you mean the idea of ​​"socialism". But this idea of ​​Dzhugashvili in the USSR began to be implemented from the XV Congress of the CPSU (b), which took place in December 1927. Ulyanov, however, did not know about such an idea (about "socialism"), and basically wanted to build "communism throughout the world." However, having been brainwashed by the Poles, he decided not to build "communism all over the world", and was completely satisfied with the role of the new tsar under the new elite. There was a tsar and nobles, there was a leader and the Bolsheviks. Everything is the same, only the names are different. At the same time, the OEF and the PO did not change at all, state capitalism (the last stage of feudalism), as it was under Nicholas II, remained under Ulyanov.
              Perhaps everything in the USSR and it would have hurt (as in China now, there is now also "state capitalism"), but a little later Ulyanov glued the flippers, and in 1927. as a result of an internecine power struggle in the CPSU (b), Dzhugashvili and his comrades won. Who decided to tie up with a secular society, gradually transferring it to the state of a pseudo-religious (sectarian type) society based on the pseudo-religion "Marskism-Leninism" invented by him (he finished seminary, understood what he was doing). Yet he was a cunning and cunning Georgian, there is even nothing to argue here.
              What happened next is another conversation. But the bottom line is that Ulyanov and his Bolsheviks are by no means revolutionaries, but quite the opposite. Because returned society in Russia / the USSR from a higher phase of development (capitalist OEF) to a lower one (feudal OEF).
              But the revolutionary was just Emperor Michael II. And, by the way, N.S. Khrushchev and his comrades, a little later, in the 50s. But this is already another story, the story of not "socialism" but "thaw". A full-scale revolution in all spheres, which, unfortunately, was only partially successful and led to the later "developed socialism". And, as a consequence, to the collapse of the USSR.
              1. 0
                13 January 2017 11: 50
                Bravo!! good Neither reduce nor add!
              2. +3
                14 January 2017 00: 21
                Well, porridge in your head.
                1. +1
                  14 January 2017 01: 03
                  Quote: swertalf
                  Well, porridge in your head.

                  Is there anything to object to?
                  1. +1
                    14 January 2017 09: 01
                    One phrase about the civil war unleashed by the Bolsheviks is worth something .... in addition, I consider the general tone of your comment to be offensive ... In essence, they object to adequate interlocutors, and your vulgar libel precludes such a possibility. Even in relation to you, if such a misfortune happened to you, I would not use the phrase "glued the flippers", all the more so when it comes to the death of the head of state, no matter how you personally feel about him ...
                    1. +1
                      14 January 2017 13: 32
                      Quote: swertalf
                      One phrase about the civil war unleashed by the Bolsheviks

                      Do you want to argue with this obvious fact?
                      You want to call into question the fact that the creeping counter-revolutionary coup was carried out by the Bolsheviks in October 1917 - January 1918. caused the opposition of healthy pitchfork of Russian society, which resulted in the Civil War?
                      You have a strange logic, a bunch of crooks seized power in the capital and began to expand it throughout the country. And, according to your logic, all the healthy forces of society should have sat on a bench and cried bitterly on this topic.
                      Quote: swertalf
                      in addition, the overall tone of your comment is considered offensive ...

                      Guard!!!!! Offended "witnesses of socialism" !!!!! They did not write that Dzhugashvili is "the great and brilliant supreme shaman of our time."
                      Quote: swertalf
                      In essence, they object to adequate interlocutors, and your vulgar libel excludes this possibility.

                      Of course, I am an “inadequate conversationalist”. Since I have everything written correctly, and there is nothing to appeal to you.
                      But you don't like what you've written. Therefore, you habitually call the one who wrote "inadequate".
                      Are you sure of your adequacy? Here I am, not so much. Because I can’t understand how in our time available information you can still continue to believe in Bolshevik tales.
                      Quote: swertalf
                      I would not use the phrase "glued fins"

                      Of course, this term is not applicable to respected people. But why did you decide that the rogue Ulyanov was a worthy and respected person? You do not know how much Russian blood is on it? Take an interest.
                      Quote: swertalf
                      when it comes to the death of the head of state

                      I’ll remind you for a moment that Adya Schiklgruber, nicknamed Hitler, was also the head of state. Are you offering me grief over his death?
                      Are you sad about his death?
                      And more about the "head of state".
                      The USSR, as a state entity, was recognized by the leading (essentially main) countries of the world (which was in fact the recognition of the USSR as a state) already AFTER the death of this "head of state". Since during Ulyanov's life, with the amount of blood on his hands, this was completely out of the question.
                      He was the head of state only for Latvians, Afghans, Germans, Iranians, Mongols (at the same time, Mongolia itself was an unrecognized state), Poles, Turks and Finns.
                      1. +1
                        14 January 2017 13: 59
                        Quote: JS20
                        ... a bunch of crooks seized power ...

                        - this is to the Guchkov-Milyukov-Rodzian
                        - this is not suitable for the Bolsheviks, to your great sorrow
                        - because they relied on a certain number of people who supported them
                        - and over time, this people became more and more

                        Quote: JS20
                        Guard!!!!! Offended "witnesses of socialism" !!!!!

                        - I state: you are beginning to be rude
                        - this is good, that means the training manual is not coping already

                        You go on, go on ...

                      2. +1
                        14 January 2017 17: 10
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        this is to the Guchkov-Milyukov-Rodzian

                        Learn the story, Katzman. Mihail II OFFICIALLY handed over power in the country to the Provisional Government. Until the election of the Constituent Assembly. The interim government has been recognized by all countries of the world.
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        to the Bolsheviks this, to your great sadness, will not fit in any way

                        As if it was specially invented for them.
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        because they relied on a certain number of people who supported them

                        Most of which they simply deceived. They promised land and factories / factories, and took away everything, down to personal plots.
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        and over time this people became more and more

                        Of course. Here the Red Army at the beginning of the war, surrendered in millions of captives. From the great support of the Bolsheviks, apparently.
          2. +2
            12 January 2017 22: 27
            JS.20. Mind you, I have a negative attitude towards Blank and K. But I do not quite agree with your statement that the Bolsheviks "carried out a creeping editorial coup": it was a banal seizure of power. The Bolsheviks simply took advantage of Kerensky's stupidity, and in the 20s they called it a coup.
            But among the Bolsheviks there were strong-willed people and therefore won
            1. 0
              12 January 2017 22: 56
              Quote: Monarchist
              Please note to Blank

              Are you a halachic Jew? If not, then why blank? His last name was Ulyanov.
              Quote: Monarchist
              But I do not quite agree with your statement that the Bolsheviks "made a creeping editorial coup": it was a banal seizure of power.

              Apparently the whole point is that it was not a completely banal seizure of power. As a result, society has degraded in its development by one level. This is a very serious "unusual" thing.
              Quote: Monarchist
              But among the Bolsheviks there were strong-willed people and therefore won

              Whom? The population of Russia / USSR?
              1. +2
                13 January 2017 05: 36
                JS20 society has degraded? belay Communists eliminated illiteracy created an education system, carried out the electrification of the country! Russia from a third-rate country has become the second in the world and in many ways the first! lol
                1. +2
                  13 January 2017 12: 01
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  society has degraded?

                  Degraded, my dear, degraded. And much. Even one time (16 years) to the level of slaveholding. In addition, for 64 years, society in the USSR was not secular, but pseudo-religious. And this was still a brake on its development. See below.
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  Communists eliminated illiteracy created an education system, carried out the electrification of the country!

                  For a start, the tsarist government was still involved in this. And a new democratic, elected by the Constituent Assembly, would continue. So, and without the Bolsheviks would be fine. Moreover, everything you have indicated without the Bolsheviks would have been at an immeasurably high stage of development. After all, their "collectivization" and "industrialization" ended in failure.
                  And this happened because in the USSR, after the death of Ulyanov and the subsequent victory in the internal struggle of Dzhugashvili, society since December 1927. was transformed from the secular to the pseudo-religious on the basis of the pseudo-religion "Marxism-Leninism". This, in principle, gave absolute power in the country into the hands of the supreme shaman of the CPSU (b), i.e. at that moment Dzhugashvili, which was enshrined in the 1936 Constitution. Until that moment, the Soviets formally ruled in the country, although the Bolsheviks were in charge there too.
                  This was the end of feudalism in the USSR. After watching the real results of the absolutely failed "collectivization" and "industrialization", Dzhugashvili decided to degrade society in the USSR even further, to the level of slaveholding. Those. introduce other, more stringent TVET in the country. Dzhugashvili made this reactionary coup in 1937, and slavery in the USSR was legally formalized by the Decree of the PVS of the USSR of 26.06.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                  There was a slave system in the USSR until the feudal revolution of Khrushchev, which occurred in 1953-56. And legislatively, slavery in the USSR was abolished by the Decree of the USSR PVS of 25.04.1956.
                  I will not describe further, although there were interesting events. I only add from myself that it remains only to regret that the bourgeois societies in the USSR were overthrown as a result of the Bolshevik counter-revolutionary coup of October 1917 - January 1918. Because for this period, from January 1918. to April 1956 democratic Russia could achieve stunning successes, both in the economy and in the level of development of society. Here are the indisputable facts:
                  1. In WW1, Russia would be a winner. And her wounds would not be in vain.
                  2. And 2MB most likely would not exist at all, with its victims and losses. Because pre-Bolshevik Russia and France had long-standing allied relations. And against them, the Nazis would have a small intestine.
                  1. +1
                    13 January 2017 13: 31
                    JS20 it’s ridiculous to read your liberal fairy tales, nothing concrete! Everything would be! It could be just as successful to say that capitalism in the USA is slave-owning capitalism! Remember the economic crisis in the USA. Active intervention
                    States in the economy, the regulation of production were aimed at pulling the country out of depression. But the event of the "new course" has caused a controversy among Americans. Many saw him as an attempt on
                    "Holy of holies" of the American way of life - freedom of enterprise. Roosevelt was called red in the newspapers, some claimed that he “opened the road to communism”, others claimed that he was a fascist.
                    In the mid 30s. the action of the main acts of the “new course” was stopped. The agrarian business lobby was not interested in having a lot of food: then it would become available to impoverished Americans. Therefore, the authorities and business acted quite “market-wise”: they smelled about 10 million hectares of land with crops and destroyed more than 6,5 million pigs. The US federal government carried out mass destruction of food during the crisis.
                    Naturally, all this caused discontent among ordinary Americans who staged "hungry marches." The government left them only one choice - “community service”.
                    Admiring the wisdom of Roosevelt, who organized the "public works", is the same as admiring the wisdom of Stalin, who organized the construction of the White Sea Canal and a number of other great construction projects of communism. The memory of the humanitarian crimes of the then ruling US regime has been erased from official history, replaced by propaganda, in which there is a place for the “wise” Roosevelt, but there is no place for millions of Americans who died of starvation. In total, about 8,5 million people passed through the American Gulag of public works. Only unemployed youth were attracted about 2 million. They paid them $ 30, but 25 of them were deducted for the "maintenance" ... All this happened in terrible malaria conditions and against an unprecedented mortality ... I foresee the answer, communist propaganda! lol
                    1. 0
                      13 January 2017 15: 45
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      The memory of the humanitarian crimes of the then ruling US regime has been erased from official history, replaced by propaganda, in which there is a place for the “wise” Roosevelt, but there is no place for millions of Americans who died of starvation.

                      they say the same thing about Stalin, but instead of
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      then US ruling regime

                      substitute the communist regime, and instead
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      "Wise" Roosevelt

                      substitute the "wise" Stalin, well, the Soviet people, instead of the American, only screams about "liberal propaganda" will immediately begin
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      They paid them $ 30, but 25 of them were deducted for the "maintenance" ...

                      you forget that the program was aimed at saving thousands of people from hunger, this very content for $ 25 included food and accommodation, do you think that the construction of the military communism of the USSR had better content?
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      All this happened in terrible malarial conditions and amid unprecedented mortality ...

                      And did Turksib, the White Sea Canal and other construction sites of the first five-year plans at resorts seem to you? Well, in conclusion, I would like a link to the source hi
                      1. +1
                        14 January 2017 11: 35
                        veteran66 if you please! THIS WAS THE AMERICAN GENOCIDE. The Holodomor in the USA in the 30s - the years of the Great Depression .: ru_polit
                        en-polit.livejournal.com
                        And what are you looking at the bitch in your brother’s eye, but you don’t feel the logs in your eye?
                        The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5: 1-7: 29; Luke 6: 12-41)
                        hi
                    2. +1
                      14 January 2017 01: 10
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      capitalism in the USA is slave capitalism

                      You immediately sit down for a dissertation. Right after the doctoral dissertation. Cut down a lot of money on such an "opening".
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      remember the economic crisis in the USA

                      What for? Do you know where these US are?
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      The agrarian business lobby was not interested in having a lot of food: then it would become available to impoverished Americans. Therefore, the authorities and business acted quite “market-wise”: they smelled about 10 million hectares of land with crops and destroyed more than 6,5 million pigs. The US federal government carried out mass destruction of food during the crisis.

                      Lord, how do you get all this rubbish in your head?
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      who organized the construction of the White Sea Canal and a number of other great construction projects of communism.

                      Yes, I understand that the victims of these "great construction projects" are not interested in the "witnesses of socialism".
                      1. +2
                        14 January 2017 11: 38
                        JS20 you with these comrades veteran66 not in the same school studied! wassatthe arguments are equally funny lol
                  2. +1
                    13 January 2017 13: 46
                    the bourgeoisie, in alliance with a part of the generals, was preparing a palace coup in order to replace Nicholas II on the throne by his brother Mikhail. This conspiracy was assured of the assistance of the Entente. At the end of 1916 and in January 1917, the British ambassador Buchanan persistently tried to persuade the tsar to yield to the demands of the "progressive bloc," which constituted the majority of the State Duma, that is, to capitulate to the bourgeoisie. The Entente diplomacy hoped to create a government more capable of "organizing victory" and preventing the possibility of a separate peace. In addition, she hoped that a coup from above would help prevent a popular revolution in Russia. These hopes were not destined to come true. On March 12 (February 27), 1917, a bourgeois-democratic revolution took place in Russia. Tsarism fell.
                    In the fall of 1917, an agreement was reached between England, the USA and France on the delimitation of their activities in the matter of "helping" Russia. The United States took over the reorganization of Russian railways, England - maritime transport, France - the army. Soon, the agreement was modified: assistance to the Murmansk road diverted to England, and the western and southwestern roads to France. This conspiracy of the Entente imperialists implied not only widespread interference in the internal affairs of Russia, but also the beginning of its division into spheres of influence. Russia was in danger that dependence on the Entente would lead it to a state of an almost colonial country.
                    The Russian people did not allow such a fate to befall their homeland. "
                    1. 0
                      13 January 2017 14: 28
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      In the fall of 1917, an agreement was reached between England, the USA and France on the delimitation of their activities in the matter of "helping" Russia. The United States took over the reorganization of Russian railways, England - maritime transport, France - the army. Soon, the agreement was modified: assistance to the Murmansk road diverted to England, and the western and southwestern roads to France. This conspiracy of the Entente imperialists implied not only widespread interference in the internal affairs of Russia, but also the beginning of its division into spheres of influence. Russia was in danger that dependence on the Entente would lead it to a state of an almost colonial country.
                      The Russian people did not allow such a fate to befall their homeland. "

                      somewhere I already read it))))
                      1. +1
                        13 January 2017 15: 53
                        so repetition mother teachings! veteran66 so gifted as you, not when it does not hurt! laughing
                    2. 0
                      14 January 2017 01: 26
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      On March 12 (February 27), 1917, a bourgeois-democratic revolution took place in Russia. Tsarism has fallen.

                      Bullshit ordinary ravings.
                      Ignorance of the "witnesses of socialism" of their own history, this is a common thing.
                      In fact, autocracy fell on March 3 (16), 1917 as a result of the transfer of power by Michael II (Emperor of Russia) to the All-Russian Constituent Assembly. And until his election, the Provisional Government.
                      What the Bolsheviks subsequently did with them is known.
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      that conspiracy of the Entente imperialists implied not only widespread interference in the internal affairs of Russia, but also the beginning of its division into spheres of influence.

                      What did you expect from Bolshevik propaganda? After all, there are enemies all around.
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      Russia was in danger that dependence on the Entente would lead it to a state of an almost colonial country.

                      Terrible Russia was in danger. Therefore, the Bolsheviks ADVANCED brought the USSR into a state of colonial raw materials appendage. And thereby eliminated all the dangers. The second time it was impossible to become a colony.
                      Quote: Uncle Murzik
                      The Russian people did not allow such a fate

                      How interesting is he "did not allow this"? I am very interested in the details.
                      1. +3
                        14 January 2017 01: 35
                        Quote: JS20
                        Therefore, the Bolsheviks in advance brought the USSR into a state of colonial raw materials appendage

                        - What time period do you mean?
                        - about Hindu - 3 - ali - have prudently forgotten? In vain, one can easily raise data on the industrial development of the Republic of Ingushetia from the times of 1913-1917, for example, and the USSR from the early 30s, for example
                        - guess three times, in whose favor will the comparison be? wink
                      2. +1
                        14 January 2017 09: 54
                        JS20 you are funny with your liberal clichés! "Degrading" USSR first flew into space! lol
                      3. +1
                        14 January 2017 14: 01
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        USSR first flew into space! lol

                        To begin with, I do not see much reason for enthusiasm. Well, flew and flew. Many who fly there. Well, first, so what?
                        Is this something that somehow refutes the assertion about the degradation of Soviet society under "socialism"? In a broad sense, including science and technology.
                        In addition, I highly recommend asking someone like Helmut Grettrup. This person is much more important for the "Soviet cosmonautics" than Korolev and Glushko put together.
                        For example, by 1944. Glushko’s liquid rocket engine RD-1 developed 300 kg of thrust.
                        And Korolev in 1933 launched the GIRD-X rocket, which weighed 29,5 kg, had a thrust of 75 kg and was able to rise to a height of 80 meters. Then he was temporarily busy washing gold in Kolyma.
                        Glushko did not wash gold, he just sat at the Lubyanka, and then at Butyrka. And only in 1942. they both met in a "sharashka" in Kazan. Without creating anything more advanced until the end of the war.
                        In the same place, V. Glushko, the "chief Soviet specialist on liquid-propellant rocket engines," in the course of experiments with a line of starting accelerators for aircraft, in which the latter failed to ensure stable operation at thrust exceeding 300-500 kgf. on camera, recklessly said that "more than 300 and can not be."
                        By 1942, the German A-4 rocket weighed 13 tons, had an engine created by Walter Thiel with a thrust of 25 tons and could throw 800 kg of explosives to a distance of 320 kilometers, and in the first test flight it climbed to a height of 80 km. Based on it was created FAU-2. It was she who was the first in the world to overcome the speed of sound and made the first suborbital space flight, reaching a height of 1944 km in 188 with a vertical launch.
                        It remains to add that Helmut Grettrup was the technical director (chief technical officer) for Werner von Braun. Which, after the war, worked for many years in the USSR. And Werner von Braun himself was not a techie, but an organizer. Therefore, as a specialist, Helmut Grettrup was much more valuable than the latter.
                      4. +1
                        14 January 2017 14: 10
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        - What time period do you mean?

                        Eighth.
                        Katzman, you’ve already bothered me with your stupid things over the past couple of days that I have absolutely no desire to communicate with you.
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        take data on industrial o = development of the Republic of Ingushetia from the time of 1913-1917, for example, and the USSR from the beginning of the 30s, for example

                        Lord, who just does not crawl on the Runet. Here's another one found, now "Soviet statistics" will be cited. Where, whatever the number, there is a cheerful laugh.
                        The technological level of the state is determined not by the tonnage of pig iron and steel, not by the production of electric power, as the Bolsheviks claimed, but by the comparison of the manufactured high-tech products, in comparison with the developed countries of the world. And once you turn to this parameter, all the fables of the Bolsheviks crumble to dust. Relative degradation is evident. The backlog increased more and more.
                  3. +2
                    14 January 2017 01: 48
                    Quote: JS20
                    This was the end of feudalism in the USSR. After watching the real results of the absolutely failed "collectivization" and "industrialization", Dzhugashvili decided to degrade society in the USSR even further, to the level of slaveholding. Those. introduce other, more stringent TVET in the country. Dzhugashvili made this reactionary coup in 1937, and slavery in the USSR was legally formalized by the Decree of the PVS of the USSR of 26.06.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX.

                    - "The old song about the main thing" again? Not tired yet? You're lying, godless wink

                    Quote: JS20
                    Here are just indisputable facts:
                    1. In 1MV Russia would be the winner. And her wounds would not be in vain.
                    2. And 2MV most likely would not be in general, with her victims and losses

                    - good laughing
                    - call out what is stated in subjunctive undeniable facts - IT'S FIVE Yes
                    1. 0
                      14 January 2017 14: 06
                      Quote: Cat Man Null
                      Not tired yet? You are lying, godlessly

                      I do not have such a habit. Unlike you.
                      I’ve already explained 100 times to you how and what happened, for the 101st time I won’t. Read on the profile.
                      Quote: Cat Man Null
                      to call the stated in the subjunctive mood facts, and even indisputable - THIS FIVE

                      Even if it’s six.
                      But these are indiscriminate facts, which are impossible to refute.
                      To assert that a car, having hit a pole, will be damaged, it is not necessary to hit it on a pole. It's obvious.
                      Here with my statements everything is exactly the same.
              2. +1
                13 January 2017 08: 37
                Uncle Murzik, you caught me in a hurry: "but there were strong-willed people among the Bolsheviks and won" I wanted to say in the civil war, but it turned out to be nonsense
                1. 0
                  13 January 2017 09: 57
                  dear Monarchist, yes everything is fine, with whom it does not happen! in many ways I agree with you hi
                2. 0
                  15 January 2017 03: 53
                  JS20 you wrote: "The technological level of the state is determined not by the tonnage of iron and steel, not by the production of electric power, as the Bolsheviks argued, but by the comparison of high-tech products produced in comparison with the developed countries of the world" Mr. dreamer JS20 but you can find out high-tech products were produced in the Russian Empire ? laughing liberal lies again!
                  1. +1
                    15 January 2017 11: 27
                    Quote: Uncle Murzik
                    But can you find out high-tech products produced in the Russian Empire?

                    Certainly.
                    RI produced warships of the 1st class. Yes, they did not pull on a full grade 1, but they were something between the 1st and 2nd grade. The USSR, even in the last days of its existence, did not even dare to let out any ships of the 2nd class.
                    RI produced a three-ruler and a three-inch. Then they were quite modern products. Yes, in comparison with Western products, this was not a class 1 product. But then almost the entire 2MV of the USSR was fought with precisely these products, because he could not do anything. And if he did, then these products had a technical level incompatible with German, for example.
                    The ideal of "witnesses of socialism" T-34/85 was insanely expensive and complex in every component. And in exactly the same way it was expensive to operate. In addition, for the release of his gun, American equipment was needed, which the USSR would have received in peacetime.
                    And what is the result? As a result, by the summer of 1944. this tank caught up with the German light tank Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.G mod. the fall of 1942, which was cheap and simple, like the corner of a house. Including and in operation. And about such things as Pz.KpfW.V and Pz.KpfW.VI in the USSR, there was not even any discussion. Well, if only because there were no suitable tank guns for their counterparts.
                    Soviet masterpiece T-34/85 at the level of the deadliest German Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.G / H / J. Shut up "level".
                    What about automatic infantry rifles to write?
                    And what about the joke called "assault rifle" to write?
                    And what about the joke "army pistol PM" to write?
                    And what about self-loading on a rifle cartridge to write?
                    By a comparable level of technical development (in comparison with the developed countries of their time), the Russian Empire was INCORRECTLY higher than the level of development of the USSR. Simple, heaven and earth.
                    1. +1
                      17 January 2017 11: 39
                      Let's start about the T-34! Guderian tanks first encountered the T-34 on July 2, 1941. In his Memoirs, the general wrote: “The 18th Panzer Division received full
                      the idea of ​​the strength of the Russians, for they first used their T-34 tanks, against which our guns were too weak at that time. ” However, then the T-34 and KV were used mostly scattered, without the support of infantry and aircraft, so their individual successes were lost against the general background of the sad situation of the Soviet troops in the first months of the war. From his memoirs: “For the first time, the superiority of Russian T-34 tanks manifested itself in a sharp form. The division suffered significant losses. The planned quick attack on Tula had to be postponed. ”
                      The T-IV was the Wehrmacht's most advanced tank in 1941, and before modernization it was defenseless against the T-34.
                      Source: http://fishki.net/1405569-chto-govorili-nemcy-os
                      ovetskih-tankah.html © Fishki.net
                      Quote: JS20
                      Insanity grows stronger. An expensive nedotank with a bunch of fatal flaws is gradually becoming "legendary". Those. bad but not criticized
                      Why did the T34 become an expensive and all the more nerdy? Just doing srach? With what do you compare the price - with the MS-1?
                      \ T-34 of plant No. 183, the first digits from the plant’s report, in parentheses are the figures from the People’s Commissariat’s report:
                      1939 - 596 rubles.
                      1940 g - 429 (256)
                      1941 - 249
                      1942 g - 165 (810)
                      1943 g - 141 (822)
                      1944 g - 140 (996)
                      1945 g - 136 (380)
                      to compare the price of IS-2
                      IS-2 (ChKZ):
                      1943 - 347
                      1944 - 264
                      1945 - 230
                      Where did the "fatal" shortcomings come from? During the war, the tank was constantly being modernized, and if you compare it with the same T-IV (the same modernized one), then these are classmates' tanks, but the Germans were able to produce only 8000 units throughout the war. The T-IV was a worthy contender, but it had its drawbacks and certainly did not have a military superiority over the T34. The National Interest recognizes the T34 as the best in two out of two nominations - Tankman's Choice and Commander's Choice. https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150909/1240519373
                      .html Again RANGE ... Prove. Everything is relative. Facts on the table. We do not take a word.

                      I know that German tanks Pz.III cost 96163 Reichsmarks, Pz.IV - 103462 Reichsmarks, Pz.V "Panther" - 117000 Reichsmarks, and Pz.VI "Tiger" - 250800 Reichsmarks.
                      Using the average exchange rate of the ruble to the Reichmark 10 to 1, you can approximately compare the cost of tanks ...
                    2. 0
                      17 January 2017 11: 43
                      Let's start your educational program JS20, at least you would have a look at Wikipedia! lol CCCP was one of the 5 countries in the world capable of independently producing all types of industrial products known to mankind. The USSR was in first place in the world in the production of oil, steel, cast iron, metal-cutting machines, diesel locomotives, electric locomotives, tractors, prefabricated reinforced concrete structures, iron ore, coke, refrigerators, woolen fabrics, leather shoes, butter, natural gas production, and the production of mineral fertilizers, lumber, reactor uranium (50% of world production), rail freight and passenger traffic, second in the world in catching fish and other seafood, livestock of sheep, livestock of pigs, production of electric ktroenergii, gold mining, cement, coal mining, the total length of railways, road freight turnover, passenger traffic and air cargo [19] [20] and the flight into space and the construction of nuclear power plants is the crown of scientific progress in the USSR
                      1. 0
                        17 January 2017 16: 16
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        CCCP was one of the 5 countries in the world capable of independently producing all types of industrial products known to mankind.

                        Produce little; they must also be competitive
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        USSR was in first place in the world in

                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        for the production of metal cutting machines
                        and now, in addition to the slogans, give the numbers, how many of this number were precision CNC machines, how many so-called sold to countries capitalist world and how many purchased from them
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        for the production of diesel locomotives, electric locomotives, tractors,
                        the question is the same as how much was sold to the cap. of the world and then on to refrigerators, consumer goods, etc. The balance will definitely not be in our favor. And about
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        in first place in the world for the production of oil, steel, cast iron, iron ore, coke, natural gas production,
                        so it's all raw materials, it's like boasting about how much hemp and flax was produced in Russia in the XNUMXth century. All this characterizes the country as a raw material appendage, nothing more. The Belgian Congo produced the most rubber in the world, so what? For the might of the country in the XX and XXI centuries, it would be good to compare the production of high-tech products with the leading powers: electronic microcircuits, chips, robots, computers, etc. ... Remember the Gas - Pipes project? We bought pipes for gas, but where did our rental go? He was, only worthless, he didn't hold pressure and cooked badly. And what about gas generating stations for these pipes? Siemens also supplied. The list is long. So do not throw slogans here. The backwardness of the USSR from the leading powers is evidenced by at least this fact
                        Since 1968, the UN has been implementing the International Comparison Project (ICP), which compares the GDP of different countries of the world by purchasing power parity (PPP) currencies. For many years, the Soviet Union refused to take part in this program, not recognizing the “bourgeois indicators” of GDP and GNP and conducting its own inflated international comparable estimates of national income and a number of other indicators. Only in 1990 did the USSR take part in this program, but soon collapsed.
                      2. +1
                        17 January 2017 19: 34
                        The last Soviet minister of machine-tool and tool industry Nikolay PANICHEV was asked to make a diagnosis and outline ways of a possible treatment for AN. One-hander Khristenko - Nikolai Alexandrovich, check the “analyzes” of your industry and compare the results of the period of stagnation and the current country, which has confidently risen from its knees. - At the end of the eighties, the USSR came out on the third place in production among the machine-tool world powers. The first place was held by Japan, the second - Germany, the USA - fourth place. The USSR was also the second largest consumer of equipment in the world, as the machine-building industry — aviation, automobiles, military-industrial complex — developed very actively. The Union exported machine tools not only to developing countries, but also to Japan, Canada, USA, Germany. They reduced the output of obsolete machine tools, but increased the production of “automatic machines”. In 1986, the industry produced 220 thousand machines a year. In 1991 –76 thousand. But among them there were already 26 thousand machines with numerical control (CNC), 5,5 thousand machining centers and flexible production modules (GPM). They completely replaced a huge number of universal machines. There was a problem with imported CNC systems. But by 1991, already half of the components for them were domestic. Engaged in robotics. And flexible production systems (GPS) at some enterprises are still successfully operating. - But the people who are now responsible for Russian industrial production say that in the USSR there were virtually no competitive machine-tool products. Everything was made almost on a knee or on machines issued under Tsar Gorokh. - They lie. In the park of metalworking equipment of the country, 94% was domestic. All industrial goods, weapons, space exploration products are the best in the world, produced on domestic machines. We got to nanotechnology when no one had heard of Chubais yet.

                        The use of this material of the website of the newspaper “Arguments of the Week” in the Internet space is allowed only with the obligatory placement of a hyperlink to the publication source:
                        http://argumenti.ru/society/n303/121611
                    3. 0
                      17 January 2017 12: 29
                      Now let's start the educational program about AK! Now traditionally I expect from at least one of you a sane list of common design elements of AK and Sturmgevere lol
                      And also an explanation why the "copy of the stormgower", which you are trying to declare AK, was one and a half times lighter and one and a half times longer than the "original" laughing
                      And why, after the war, Schmeiser’s design was repeated only in small series somewhere in Latin America, and not for long, until the AK dispersed around the world in millions of copies and still remains the most popular small arms in the world.
                      Waiting for answers, sir? Or, as usual, hollow breeds hide in bushes?
                      1. 0
                        17 January 2017 16: 53
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        while AK diverged around the world in millions of copies and still remains the most popular small arms in the world.

                        the truth is in the banana republics to which they were handed out for free and to the former socialist countries to which they were imposed, and now for some reason they are switching to the NATO ones. I am by no means talking. AK is a bad machine, no, an excellent machine, reliable, but far from the top of manufacturability, so the comparison does not count.
                      2. 0
                        17 January 2017 18: 40
                        veteran66 with whom comparison are you writing about? fool Well, I will answer you lol 1 The Kalashnikov assault rifle is included in the Guinness Book of Records as the most widespread weapon in the world. There are currently about 100 million AKs in the world. This means that there is 60 machine gun for every 1 adults on our planet.

                        2 The Kalashnikov assault rifle is in service with armies and special forces in 106 countries. The Kalashnikov weapon has been in service with the "native" army for 60 years.3 It is produced in 12 countries! The numbers speak for themselves!
                    4. 0
                      17 January 2017 13: 38
                      JS20 ha ha ha Russian Empire has sunk higher, you yourself believe in your nonsense! Here is the chemical industry. Archival thing in the war! But in the Russian Empire in 1913, sulfur was imported from Italy, pyrites - from Spain, saltpeter - from Chile. There is no production of the necessary varnishes and paints, they have to be imported. Fertilizers are produced 23 times less than in Germany.

                      Engineering? There are no critical, key industries - like releasing your bearings. For half a century of market reforms, tsarism has not bothered to solve this problem: I bought everything in Europe for bearings. The first plant to produce them in Russia will be built by the Reds, in the first five-year period. For all mechanical engineering in 1913 - only eight thread grinding machines, only 625 automatic machines and semiautomatic devices.

                      Energy? 62,7% of the work in 1913 is carried out due to the muscular strength of animals and people.

                      At 24 enterprises there were only 472 electric, steam, diesel engines (with an average power of 24 horsepower). If we take such an important indicator as the power-to-weight ratio, then on this part on the eve of the First World War Russia lagged behind the United States 140 times, England five times, Germany, Belgium, New Zealand - 60 times.

                      Electrification - below the plinth, for a kilowatt-hour for the industry, the owners of power stations tear 18 kopecks, from the population they take 22 kopecks. In those days - crazy money. For 15-20 kopecks in 1913, one could dine in the then cafe-tea houses, and a pair of boots cost from five to six rubles. At the same time, most of the energy companies of Rosimperia-1913 were in the hands of foreigners - they simply took money out of the country, which they collected from industry and the population. Electricity consumption on the eve of the First World War per capita in the United States was 185 kW / h, in Germany - 100 kW / h, in Russia - 12 kW / h. Even if we cast aside Central Asia, still more than 15-16 kW / h per Russian soul did not come out in any way.In tsarist Russia in 1913 there was no motor industry (it will appear in the First World War), no optical industry, no watch industry. The industrialization carried out by the tsars turned out to be incomplete, "torn apart", partial - the country was dependent on imports for many positions. There was no developed machine tool industry. Instruments and all kinds of measuring equipment? 93% are imported.

                      Automotive industry? Usually they talk about three factories in Russia on the eve of the First World War - Lessner (actually a screwdriver, assembly production of German cars), Puzyrev (in 1911-1913 he produced 38 cars, then died) and Russo-Balt, which on average from 1909 to 1918 produced 60 cars a year.

                      In the USA in 1914, 569 thousand cars were produced, in England (in 1913) - 34 thousand, in Germany - 20 thousand, in France - 45 thousand cars a year.

                      And even then "Russo-Balt" imported a fucking cloud of components from abroad for the production of its cars. That is, special steel, ball bearings, candles, pumps, tires and cameras, carburetors, magneto, wheels, grease cans, instruments, shafts, screws, screws, bolts, cables. Chapter 9. World War I: exam for Russia.
                      razlib.ru ›istorija / nizshaja_rasa / p10.php
                      1. 0
                        17 January 2017 16: 44
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        There is no production of the necessary varnishes and paints, they have to be imported. Fertilizers are produced 23 times less than in Germany.

                        “The Americans were very interested in the embargo against the Soviet Union. At the same time, it is interesting that the American grain export lobby in 1981 obtained from Reagan the exclusive right to export grain to the USSR, and businessman Armand Hammer received permission to supply fertilizers.
                        So in America did more fertilizer than in the USSR?
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        Automotive industry?

                        Well, yes, about the time of RI, the numbers are impressive, but everything has its time
                        The construction of car factories began: in Moscow - the plant of the Automobile Moscow Society (AMO), near Moscow - the plant of the Russo-Balt board, in Rybinsk - the Russky Renault plant, in Yaroslavl - the plant of V. A. Lebedev, in Rostov-on Don - Aksai. From all the second half of 2, it was supposed to produce 1916 cars and 6750 trucks per year at all these plants, but not a single plant had been completely built by this time.
                        then the Bolsheviks have a revolution, a devastation ponimash. But what about the USSR? And just, at the peak of its growth in 1985, the auto industry manufactured 2247 thousand cars, while only one Toyota more than 4,5 million, and there were still such giants as GM and Volkswagen. I will not compare countries, as there is an even greater gap. There is no need to talk about quality either
                        Quote: Uncle Murzik
                        And even then "Russo-Balt" imported a fucking cloud of components from abroad for the production of its cars.
                        and it was easier in the USSR, the plants were completely imported: GAZ - Ford, AZLK - Opel, Izh - Renault (partially true), ZIL - from the tsar, VAZ - FIAT KAMAZ themselves were built, but with imported equipment. And all this with a total deficit of cars in the domestic market. In general, the Bolsheviks did not make any breakthrough in the automotive industry.
                      2. +1
                        17 January 2017 18: 30
                        veteran66 well, my friend, you are astounding by your ignorance! By the year 80, the Soviet automobile industry had achieved significant results in mass production: for example, the USSR reached the 5th place in the world in terms of the total number of manufactured vehicles, losing to Japan, the United States, Germany and France By the 80th year, the Soviet automobile industry had achieved significant results in mass production: for example, in terms of the total indicator of manufactured vehicles, the USSR reached the 5th line in the world, losing to Japan, the United States, Germany and France. By the 80th year, the Soviet the automotive industry has achieved significant results in mass production: for example, in terms of the total indicator of manufactured vehicles, the USSR moved up to 5th in the world, losing to Japan, the United States, Germany and France. The history of the Soviet automobile industry of the 80s
                        blamper.ru ›auto ... avtoproma ... sovetskogo-avtoproma-80
                        ... this is not an achievement and this is a fact, and the quality was worthy! You write again "At all these factories from the 2nd half of 1916, it was supposed to produce 6750 cars and 3750 trucks per year, but not a single factory by that time was completely built "so why was it not built if the Bolsheviks came to power in October 1917!
                    5. +1
                      18 January 2017 08: 34
                      Yes RI ships were released! but whose optics, navigation equipment, and turbines were installed on them! The development of the fire control system for the battleship Borodino was given the greatest responsibility to the Institute of Precision Mechanics at the court of His Imperial Highness. The machines were created by the Russian Society of Steam-Power Plants. Leading research and production team whose development has been successfully used on warships around the world. As weapons systems, Ivanov’s guns and self-propelled mines of Makarov’s design were adopted ...

                      You are all there on the upper deck! Stop the ridicule!

                      The fire control system was French, mod. 1899. The instrument set was first presented at an exhibition in Paris and immediately acquired for the RIF by its commander, Grand Duke Alexey Alexandrovich (according to the recollections of relatives, le Beau Brummel, who almost permanently resided in France).

                      In the conning tower, horizontal-base range finders of the Barr and Studd brand were installed. Bellville boilers were used. Spotlights Manzhena. Worthington system steam pumps. Anchors Martin. Moan Pumps. Medium and anti-mine guns - 152- and 75-mm canet system guns. 47mm Hotchkiss rapid-firing guns. Whitehead system torpedoes. As a result, the formidable Sevastopol was under construction for six years and was completely out of date by the time the St. Andrew flag was hoisted. The Empress Maria turned out to be no better. Look at their peers. Who at the same time went into operation in 1915? The case is not a 15-inch “Queen Elizabeth”? They say, there was still a powerful “Ishmael”. Or wasn’t. The battle cruiser Izmail turned out to be an unbearable burden for RI. It’s a rather strange habit to pass off what you didn’t achieve as an achievement. Go down to the engine room of the Novik destroyer and read what is knocked out on its turbines. Come on, give the light here. Really? AG Vulkan Stettin. Deutsche Kaiserreich.

                      With the engines went wrong from the start. Climb into the nacelle of the same “Ilya of Murom”. What will you see there? Engines brand “Gorynych”? Right, surprise. Renault.
                3. +1
                  18 January 2017 08: 26
                  JS20 you are already ridiculous so it turns out the USSR did not fly first into space there was no Gagarin, Korolev? There were no achievements in rocketry, but nuclear energy! This is the technological crown! laughing
  11. +1
    13 January 2017 08: 27
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    veteran66 and you still write that Russia is not a colony! you are lying again! where is the link to the request of the legitimate government for the intervention of the Entente? belay

    What I agree with is that the Entente wasn’t figs to climb here
    1. 0
      13 January 2017 09: 31
      Quote: Monarchist
      Entente did not FIG climb here

      based on the results of its activities, yes, I completely agree with you. Russia has done so much and brought so many sacrifices for them in WWI that they could have helped in difficult times, but, as Alexander III said, Russia has no friends ....
  12. 0
    13 January 2017 08: 57
    Comrades, I forgot to say yesterday: a few years ago there was information on TV that the body of Rosa Luxemburg was found as a result of the Chariete clinic! Like for unknown reasons, in 1919 the body was not given to Rosa Luxemburg.
    In the 70s, a teacher in a German lesson read a story from some GDR youth: Rosa Luxemburg's body was so disfigured that she could not be recognized.
    1. 0
      13 January 2017 09: 29
      Quote: Monarchist
      that as a result of the Charityet clinic, the body of Rosa Luxemburg was found!

      wow! But why was this body (the mummy, apparently) stored for so long?
      1. +1
        13 January 2017 18: 14
        Veteran 66, I myself, when I heard this information, was stunned. Then I checked it on the Internet and there was Photo: a woman without a head and seems with one leg (I don’t remember exactly)
  13. +3
    13 January 2017 15: 46
    oh, how zealously defend capitalism.
    how interesting, and how, did Russia pay for its debts after the war? here is the finished colony.
    and about a good life before the revolution - nonsense. and do not cite the West as an example. there the workers lived no better at that time. it was the influence of October that made the ruling class make concessions. and there was simply no such peasant question as in Russia. Your kind autocrats have not resolved this issue.
    what we have built in the end do not call socialism. In fact, we didn’t get to this system; your friends, both inland and inland, didn’t ... Read the memories of white emigrants. there they beautifully paint their alienness to the Russian people.
    1. 0
      13 January 2017 16: 17
      Quote: Omich
      how interesting, and how, did Russia pay for its debts after the war?

      Russia's debts as of the 90s were no less, but they did not become a colony. After the Second World War, Stalin froze his debts on Lend-Lease supplies and loans. With a losing country, indemnities and annexations are sought, also not a frail parish. Would have found something to break out of the allies.
      1. +4
        13 January 2017 16: 47
        Well, RI had no gas, no oil. Do not forget that the Baku oil belonged to the Nobile and the denyuzhka went abroad.
        In world production in 1913, the share of Russia was 1,72%, the United States - 20%, England - 18%, Germany - 9%, France - 7,2% (these are all countries with a population 2-3 times less than Russia).
        Modern defenders lead the gigantic pace of industrial growth, cleverly removing per capita income from calculations.
        By 1913, Russia had lost its economic sovereignty. This is only the property in Russia that belonged to foreign capital. Not to mention even those loans that were taken. And how do you give loans? nothing but territory.
        1. +3
          13 January 2017 16: 50
          Sorry, part of the text was torn out and it turned out to be confusion. the point is that on the eve of the WWII, Russia practically did not belong to itself.
          1. +1
            14 January 2017 17: 27
            Quote: Omich
            the point is that on the eve of the WWII, Russia practically did not belong to itself.

            "When you speak, it feels like you are delusional."
            Confusing business and power is the height of amateurism. You are an amazing layman in what you write about.
        2. 0
          13 January 2017 17: 03
          Quote: Omich
          In world production in 1913, the share of Russia was 1,72%, the United States - 20%, England - 18%, Germany - 9%, France - 7,2% (these are all countries with a population 2-3 times less than Russia).

          Communist propaganda always leads these calculations. The lie here is that the metropolises of Great Britain, France, Germany are taken without considering their colonies, and Russia is taken as a whole. Accordingly, the population of the metropolitan areas is smaller, and the GNP per capita is larger, but in Russia the opposite. And where would the very same Great Britain, France, Germany be without their colonies and their raw materials?
          1. 0
            13 January 2017 18: 25
            Veteran, it's hard to argue something.
            Back to the topic, maybe you heard the song "There was a young drummer among us"? As there is a trifle, "Spartakovskaya detachments were moving forward .... Our glorious campaign ended, and so on. But in reality it was Noske who could sing" our glorious campaign ended. "
            Such a mismatch of history infuriates
          2. +1
            17 January 2017 12: 04
            veteran66 and Russia did not include Poland, Finland, the Baltic states, Kakhakhstan! "Well, you give a pancake" lol
            1. +1
              17 January 2017 12: 31
              I apologize for Kazakhstan! smile
            2. 0
              17 January 2017 17: 01
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              and Russia did not include Poland, Finland, the Baltic States, Kakhakhstan! "

              this is where I wrote this?
        3. 0
          13 January 2017 17: 07
          Quote: Omich
          By 1913, Russia had lost its economic sovereignty.

          if this were so, then no one would give loans to Russia, moreover, all concessions with the participation of foreign capital did not entirely belong to their foreign owners. A significant number of shares remained in Russia.
          Quote: Omich
          Modern defenders lead the gigantic pace of industrial growth, cleverly removing per capita income from calculations.

          about cheating in manipulating GNP per capita I wrote above
          1. +1
            17 January 2017 12: 40
            Statistical Yearbook of Russia. 1914 ", the organization of medical care in Russia in 1912: the number of hospitals - 8.110, the number of beds - 219.978. The number of patients was kept - 3.311.687 people. The question is: how many people are there per one bed in a year? I remember the classic:" how flies recover ". lol In the conclusion of the white myth about prosperous Russia, I will quote the words of the monarchist I. Solonevich
            “Thus, the old emigrant songs about Russia as a country in which rivers flowed from champagne on the banks of caviar, are artificially crafted fakes: yes, there were champagne and caviar, but for less than one percent of the country's population. The bulk of this population lived at a beggarly level. ” (I. Solonevich "People's Monarchy", M., 2003,)
            1. 0
              17 January 2017 20: 51
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              The bulk of this population lived at a beggarly level

              Well, yes, only an interesting fact, in the families there were at least three children, or even up to fourteen, only the head of the family worked, the wife was engaged in housework and raised everyone to their feet, but they fed the elderly. Under socialism, 2-3 children in the family can’t pull anymore; it’s good if grandparents help.
              1. +1
                18 January 2017 08: 00
                my friend veteran66 and how much mortality and life expectancy was! "In one of the previously published posts on the topic:" RUSSIA WHICH THEY LOST "(it was about natural growth and mortality in the Russian Empire and European countries) I quoted this quote from books by VB Bezgin "Peasant everyday life. Traditions of the late 19th - early 20th centuries":

                “According to demographers, the Russian peasant woman of this period (the turn of the 7th – 9th centuries - approx.) Gave birth on average 6,8–17 times. The average number of births among peasants in the Tambov province was 1897 times, and a maximum of 1901. Here are some extracts from the report of the gynecological department of the Tambov province provincial hospital for XNUMX, XNUMX:

                “Evdokia Moshakova, a peasant woman, 40 years old, married 27 years, gave birth 14 times”; “Akulina Manukhina, a peasant woman, 45 years old, married 25 years, gave birth 16 times.”

                In the absence of artificial birth control, the number of children in the family depended solely on the woman's reproductive capabilities.

                High infant mortality played the role of a spontaneous regulator of rural reproduction. According to surveys (1887-1896), the proportion of deceased children under five years of age on average in Russia was 43,2%, and in some provinces more than 50%. ”

                Agree, the data on child mortality is impressive, is not it? I decided to "dig" deeper in this matter and the fact that I "dug up" plunged me into a real shock.

                “According to the data for 1908-1910. the number of deaths under the age of 5 years was almost 3/5 of the total number of deaths. The infant mortality rate was especially high ”(Rashin,“ The Population of Russia for 100 Years. 1811-1913 ”).

                Do you think this author is exaggerating? Then read another source - N.A. Rubakin “Russia in Figures” (St. Petersburg, 1912 edition):

                “... in 1905 of every 1000 of both sexes who died in the 50 provinces of European Russia, there were 5 deceased children under 606,5 years of age, i.e. almost two thirds (!!!). Of each 1000 deceased, men accounted for children under 5 years of 625,9 in the same year, of each 1000 of deceased women - for girls up to 5 years - 585,4. In other words, in Russia every year a huge percentage of children dying who are not even 5 years old die, a terrible fact that cannot but make us think about the difficult conditions the Russian population lives if such a significant percentage of the dead for children under 5 years. "
                1. +1
                  18 January 2017 08: 02
                  In 1905, out of 1000 births, up to 1 year died:

                  In Mexico - 308 children .;
                  In Russia - 272 children;
                  In Hungary - 230 children .;
                  In Austria - 215 children;
                  In Germany - 185 children;
                  In Italy - 166 children .;
                  In Japan - 152 children;
                  In France - 143 children;
                  In England - 133 children;
                  In the Netherlands - 131 children;
                  In Scotland - 116 children .;
                  In the United States of America - 97 children .;
                  In Sweden, 84 children;
                  In Australia, 82 children;
                  In Uruguay - 89 children .;
                  There are 68 children in New Zealand. ”The standard of living in Tsarist Russia
                  scisne.net ›The standard of living in tsarist Russia
                  1. 0
                    18 January 2017 08: 14
                    Quote: Uncle Murzik
                    In 1905, out of 1000 births, up to 1 year died:

                    the numbers, of course, are interesting, but again rigging, as in the economy. Russia is taken entirely, but Britain, France, Italy ... again, only the metropolis? I doubt very much that in India, Congo or Libya there was the same mortality as Britain, Italy or France. Now about countries like Mexico, Uruguay, Australia. Are you sure of their comprehensive accounting? What were all Australian Aborigines registered? Do not make me laugh. An example from your data is Austria and Hungary (one empire in general), but the mortality rate is different, and then it approaches Russia, Austria-Hungary was compactly located in Europe and partly in Asia, and this is an indicator per person, approximately, as in Of Russia. Check this data and check more.
            2. 0
              17 January 2017 21: 02
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              The bulk of this population lived at a beggarly level ”

              http://www.tepka.ru/istoriya_rossii_8/33.2.jpg
              these are peasants, a picture from a history textbook
              http://www.tepka.ru/istoriya_rossii_8/34.html
              1. +1
                18 January 2017 08: 04
                - Constant malnutrition and eating various kinds of substitutes in food by the main part of the peasantry, caused by frequent, so-called "crop failures", by which we really need to understand hunger. Alexander III, - the famous lawyer O.O. Gruzenberg testified, - annoyed the mention of "hunger", as a word invented by those who have nothing to eat. He commanded the highest to replace the word "hunger" with the word "wickedness." The Press Directorate sent out a strict circular immediately.

                Russian socialist-populist, agronomist and publicist Alexander Engelhardt reported in "Letters from the Village":

                “Children eat worse than calves from the owner who has good livestock. The mortality of children is much greater than the mortality of calves, and if the owner of a good cattle had mortality of calves as high as that of a man, then it would be impossible to manage. Do we want to compete with the Americans when our children don’t have white bread even in their nipples? If mothers ate better, if our wheat, which the German eats, remained at home, then the children would grow better, and there would be no such mortality, all these typhoid fever, scarlet fever, diphtheria would not rage. Selling our wheat to a German, we sell our blood, that is, peasant children ”(Letters from the village. 12 letters. 1872–1887. St. Petersburg, 1999. S.351–352, 353, 355).
              2. +1
                18 January 2017 08: 16
                The average life expectancy in Russia was only 1913 years in 32,4 (A.M. Rodriguez, S.V. Leonov, M.V. Ponomarev). One of the reasons for such a low life expectancy and high mortality (especially for children), there was an acute shortage of doctors and medical care. From here, contagious diseases literally mowed down people. In the village, where the bulk of the population lived due to the low level of agricultural productivity and the development of agricultural technology, the low land of peasants, hunger was an inevitable and terrible life partner for the villagers. According to Yu. Shevtsov, in 1901, 2,8 million people died of starvation, in the years 1905-1908, 4 million, in 1911 -1 million, in 1913 (the most fruitful!), The country lost from hunger 1,2, XNUMX million citizens.
                Against the background of such a social disaster, the slogan that the country “We are undernourished, but exported” lived at that time was blasphemous! Late Imperial Russia in 1914 ...
                historick.ru ›view_post.php? cat = 1 & id = 160
          2. 0
            17 January 2017 12: 49
            reference from the book of M. Galitsky “Foreign capital in Russian industry before the war” (M., 1922): “Coal mining in 1912 at the mines of 36 joint-stock companies of Donbass amounted to 806,78 million pounds. 25 JSCs had almost exclusively foreign capital, they mined 95,4% of the coal from JSC production. The boards of 19 of these 25 AOs were in Belgium and France. More than 70% of the total coal production in the Donbass was in the hands of foreign companies ... About 90% of the platinum production in Russia was in the hands of foreign companies ... In addition to the concentration of more than 3/4 of the oil trade in Russia, in 1914 foreign financial syndicates had their own oil production in about 60% of the total imperial production ”
            “At the beginning of the reign of Nicholas II, foreigners controlled 20-30% of the capital in Russia, in 1913 - 60-70%, by September 1917 - 90-95%”
            1. 0
              17 January 2017 20: 56
              Quote: Uncle Murzik
              “At the beginning of the reign of Nicholas II, foreigners controlled 20-30% of the capital in Russia, in 1913 - 60-70%, by September 1917 - 90-95%”

              in the modern world this is called investment, and when %% of foreign capital decreases, economists yell about the outflow of capital. It does not matter who owns the shares, the question is on what conditions, and you know on what?
              1. 0
                18 January 2017 07: 56
                veteran66 actually in political economy is called economic dependence! laughing
                1. 0
                  18 January 2017 08: 17
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  actually in political economy is called economic dependence!

                  Yes you?!!! But political economists don’t even know)))) But it’s nothing that the leading economic countries are doing everything to attract capital to their economy, do they really want to become economically dependent?
                2. +1
                  18 January 2017 10: 36
                  Quote: Uncle Murzik
                  actually in political economy

                  Political Economy?
                  Rjunemagu.
                  Political economy, you are our specialist in a wide profile.
          3. The comment was deleted.
  14. 0
    13 January 2017 16: 09
    uncle Murzik,
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    so repetition mother teachings! veteran66 so gifted as you, not when it does not hurt! laughing

    and I think that there may be enough unsubstantiated quotes from the Central Committee training manuals to throw here?
    1. 0
      17 January 2017 12: 08
      veteran66 you probably do not know how to read links, and besides liberal propaganda! lol
  15. 0
    13 January 2017 16: 52
    In the Republic of Ingushetia, it was from a good life that the workers carried Nicholas 2 such demands:
    The demands of the workers on the Russian Tsar of January 9, 1905:

    “We have no voice in spending the huge levies collected from us. We do not even know where and for what the money collected from the impoverished people goes. The people are deprived of the opportunity to express their desires, demands, participate in the establishment of taxes and their spending.

    Not a single human right is recognized for us, nor even the right to speak, think, gather, discuss needs, and take measures to improve our situation.

    We have been enslaved, and enslaved under the auspices of your officials, with their help, with their assistance.
    1. 0
      13 January 2017 17: 18
      Quote: Omich
      “We have no voice in spending the huge levies collected from us. We do not even know where and for what the money collected from the impoverished people goes. The people are deprived of the opportunity to express their desires, demands, participate in the establishment of taxes and their spending.
      Not a single human right is recognized for us, nor even the right to speak, think, gather, discuss needs, and take measures to improve our situation.
      We have been enslaved, and enslaved under the auspices of your officials, with their help, with their assistance.

      even if this is so, then what is the difference between the working conditions of those workers and the conditions under the USSR? For example, the main conflict between the USSR and the SFRY in the late 40s and early 50s: the form of ownership of production, there the workers really controlled production, they decided where to spend profits and what to produce. In the USSR, the worker had nothing, no voice, no income from profits. Everything was regulated by the state and all profits went to the treasury of the state. In 1962, workers in Novocherkassk tried to exercise the right
      talk, think, get together, discuss needs, take measures to improve our situation.
      what came of this you know. Novocherkassk is only a striking example, but far from the only one.
      1. 0
        13 January 2017 18: 27
        What was it was
      2. +2
        14 January 2017 12: 06
        It makes no sense to talk about the living conditions of workers in the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR, it’s ridiculous even to compare 12-14 working days and 8 hours, overtime pay, bonuses and much more, including material assistance from trade unions. You give an example of Yugoslavia. A bit wrong, the workers there did not have a real opportunity to influence the economic life of the enterprise. And a large number of Yugoslav citizens traveling to work in Europe is still not an indicator of such a high standard of living.
        But Novocherkassk, yes, this is our pain.
        Interestingly, during the bloody Stalin in January-August 1929, 174 strikes took place at state enterprises of the USSR, in which 15.707 workers took part, and during the same period in 1930 - 147 strikes (11.833 workers) ...
        In January-November 1934, 185 strikes were taken into account, in which 8.707 workers took part. And in all cases, they understood the reasons and corrected the situation.
        And with liberal Khrushchev used bullets. Novocherkassk was not the only city where unrest occurred. They were the same summer of 1962 in Kemerovo. The reason was the lack of food. The unrest was accompanied by demonstrations and the devastation of grocery stores. Workplace strikes, rallies and street demonstrations took place at that time in Grozny, Krasnodar, Donetsk, Yaroslavl, Murom, Gorky and even in Moscow at the Moskvich automobile plant.
        And by the way, I'm not saying that the USSR was an ideal state. There were many mistakes and shy things from side to side. Just need to consider, we were the first, we were all in the way. Therefore, it was necessary first of all to build heavy industry. But Yugoslavia was in different conditions. She did not need to restore the economy twice. With the exception of a few major cities, it did not lie in ruins. She did not need to build an army capable of withstanding a united Europe and a fleet comparable to the fleet of the West. And many other nuances (country size, lack of roads ...).
      3. The comment was deleted.
  16. 0
    14 January 2017 15: 02
    JS20,
    yeah, the peasants cultivated their fields with tractors, and there were mowers in every yard ...
    1. +2
      15 January 2017 00: 00
      Quote: Omich
      yeah, the peasants cultivated their fields with tractors, and there were mowers in every yard ...

      Yes, even dug with spoons. There were no Holodomors before the Bolsheviks. There were lean years, but there were no agolodomors. And under the Bolsheviks, several times. Despite the "cool mechanization".
      1. +1
        15 January 2017 07: 57
        let's about invented famines do not stick at least here, tea is not full felt boots sitting on the forum. At that time, they were starving not only in Russia. Say something about hunger in Poland or those dying of hunger in the USA ... But in the USSR, in many respects, hunger arose because of the position of landowners. By the mid-20s, a class of kulaks was already organized in the village, holding cattle and grain in their hands. Grain fraud and led to starvation. The creation of collective farms was in many ways a necessary measure to eliminate such situations.
        And about the hunger in the Republic of Ingushetia, lying in the most arrogant way. Only now he was a bit culturally camouflaged under the crop. And millions were starving. Mostly in central Russia, which probably pleases you.
        Once again about the Holodomor. It was very unpleasant to look at the photos of starving people made in the 30s in the USA, which were presented as photographs of the starving Ukraine ...
        1. +1
          15 January 2017 11: 35
          Quote: Omich
          about invented famines do not stick at least here, tea is not full boots sit on the forum.

          But not complete villains. To deny the famines and mass victims of famine during the Bolsheviks.
          Quote: Omich
          By the mid-20s, a class of kulaks was already organized in the village, holding cattle and grain in their hands. Grain fraud and led to starvation.

          You don’t even know basic things.
          Famines in the USSR began in the 30s.
          The construction of "Socialism" began in 1927.
          Collectivization and "industrialization" began in the 30s, within the framework of "building socialism".
          Quote: Omich
          The creation of collective farms was in many ways a necessary measure to eliminate such situations.

          The cart is in front of the horse.
          That's right after the start of collectivization and the famine began.
          Quote: Omich
          And about the hunger in the Republic of Ingushetia, lying in the most arrogant way. Only now he was a bit culturally camouflaged under the crop. And millions were starving.

          You confuse the USSR with RI. I think you deliberately distort.
          Quote: Omich
          photos of starving dies made in the 30s in the USA, which were presented as photographs of starving Ukraine ...

          Yes Yes. We are aware that there are only enemies around the "witnesses of socialism".
          It is better to take an interest in how much US food was delivered to the USSR during the famines of the 30s. And count how many lives they thereby saved.
          1. +1
            17 January 2017 12: 11
            Was there no famine in Russia? belay Judging by the statement of his contemporaries, he did not pass! S. Yu. Witte in 1899 at a ministerial meeting emphasized: “If we compare consumption in our country and in Europe, then its average per capita in Russia will be a quarter or fifth of what is recognized in other countries as necessary for ordinary existence” [28 ]
            These are not the words of anyone, the Minister of Agriculture of 1915–1916. A. N. Naumov, a very reactionary monarchist, and not at all a Bolshevik and revolutionary: “Russia does not actually get out of a state of hunger either in one or the other province, both before the war and during the war.” [29] And then it follows from him: “Speculation by bread, predation, bribery flourish; grain delivery agents make a fortune without leaving the telephone. And against the background of the complete poverty of some - the insane luxury of others. A stone's throw from the convulsions of starvation - an orgy of satiety. Around the estates of those in power, the villages are dying. Meanwhile, they are busy building new villas and palaces. ”
      2. +1
        17 January 2017 12: 10
        JS20 lie again! From the report to the tsar for 1892 (especially unfavorable and lean) year: "Only from the failure of deaths to two million Orthodox souls." Indeed, according to the laws of that time, only those who were buried in Orthodox churches were included in the statistics, and there is no evidence of the number of dead "foreigners", Old Believers, "atheists" at all. But it is clear to any normal person that even in the same Vyatka province, side by side with Russian peasants, Old Believers have long lived and worked on the same land, "foreigners" like "unbaptized Mordovians and Votyaks." Catholics kept their accounts of the dead, but these data were not submitted to the general report. Report to Nicholas II for January 1902: "In the winter of 1900-01, 12 provinces with a total population of up to 42 million people were starving. From this, the death rate is 2 million 813 thousand Orthodox souls! In 1911 (after the much-praised" Stolypin reforms "): "9 provinces with a total population of up to 32 million people were starving. From this, the mortality rate is 1 million 613 thousand Orthodox souls. "
  17. +2
    14 January 2017 17: 25
    Quote: JS20
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    this is to the Guchkov-Milyukov-Rodzian

    Learn the story, Katzman. Mihail II OFFICIALLY transferred power in the country to the Provisional Government

    - the only question is how much voluntarily he did it. The concept of "palace coup" is obviously too difficult for you ...

    Quote: JS20
    Until the election of the Constituent Assembly. The interim government has been recognized by all countries of the world.

    - I wish I was surprised if the customers did not accept the completed order on time and on time laughing

    Quote: JS20
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    because they relied on a certain number of people who supported them

    Most of which they simply deceived. They promised land and factories / factories, and took away everything, down to personal plots

    - "Ne so vso it was. Savsem ne so" (c) Strugatsky, "Weighed down with evil"
    Quote: JS20
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    and over time this people became more and more

    Of course. Here the Red Army at the beginning of the war, surrendered in millions of captives. From the great support of the Bolsheviks, apparently.

    - no. For all other reasons.
    - and about "giving up millions" - you turned it down, admit it. Unbend already before it's too late Yes
    1. 0
      15 January 2017 00: 24
      Quote: Cat Man Null
      the only question is how voluntarily he did it.

      This by and large does not really matter.
      Quote: Cat Man Null
      The concept of "palace coup" is obviously too difficult for you ...

      The transfer of power from the autocrat to parliament (the Constituent Assembly), do you think the palace coup?
      You, Katzman, are very poorly educated.
      Quote: Cat Man Null
      no. For all other reasons.

      Really? For what, Katsman?
      Quote: Cat Man Null
      and about "surrendered by millions" - you turned it down, admit it.

      The German command in the official data indicates the figure of 5 million 270 thousand people. According to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, losses by prisoners amounted to 4 million 559 thousand people. For the whole war.
      Only for 1941 the German military command captured 3,8 million former Red Army soldiers. Moreover, by the end of July 1941, the flow of prisoners of war exceeded the Wehrmacht's ability to protect and maintain them. It came to the point that on July 25, 1941 an order was issued by the quartermaster general No. 11 \ 4590, in accordance with which the mass release of prisoners of several nationalities (Ukrainians, Belarusians, Baltic states) began. During the duration of this order, i.e. Until November 13, 1941, 318.770 former Red Army soldiers were disbanded (mainly Ukrainians - 277.761 people).
      1. +1
        15 January 2017 08: 06
        Just superbly calculated. In the western districts of the Red Army had 3.5 million people. This, together with pilots, chemists, security, etc. And here the Germans take 5 million prisoners. It turns out near Mogilev, in the boilers, in the fortified areas, ghosts kept the defense ...
        1. 0
          15 January 2017 11: 38
          Quote: Omich
          Just superbly calculated. In the western districts of the Red Army had 3.5 million people. This, together with pilots, chemists, security, etc. And here the Germans capture 5 million.

          1. Learn to understand what is written in Russian. You will probably find this useful in the future.
          2. What "western okrugs" could have been in 1941? Throughout 1941?
          3. What "western districts" could have been in 1941-45?
          1. +1
            15 January 2017 13: 43
            learn to write in Russian so that they understand that it is written in Russian. Although this may not be useful to you. For example, Kiev Special Military District, Odessa Military District, Western Special, Leningrad and others.
            Sorry for the rudeness, but both to me and in response.
            1. +1
              15 January 2017 13: 56
              Only 16 districts and one Far Eastern front, organized back in 1938. (in 1945 divided into two fronts).
              in three special districts: Baltic, Western and Kiev 21.06.41/13.06.1941/XNUMX the management was transformed into the management of the fronts of North-West, West and South-West, respectively. But in Odessa reorganization began on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. Maybe that's why the Odessa district was ready for war, and the troops there not only held their positions, but also took bridgeheads on enemy soil.
              1. +1
                15 January 2017 19: 23
                Quote: Omich
                Maybe that's why the Odessa district was ready for war, and the troops there not only held their positions,

                Nobody really stepped on them. There was nothing.
                Quote: Omich
                but also occupied bridgeheads on enemy land.

                Do not invent.
            2. +1
              15 January 2017 19: 22
              Quote: Omich
              Kiev Special Military District, Odessa Military District, Western Special, Leningrad and others.

              When did all these counties die? And when did 1941 end? I'll tell you, December 31.
  18. +1
    15 January 2017 21: 02
    The article is quite interesting. But here is the discussion ... The stupidly anti-communist and illiterate argumentation of some liberal commentators is especially depressing. Moreover, the article was about Germany, and the discussion led to a discussion of the history of Russia and the revolutions of 1917. The demagogy in the style of selective historical fraud by A. Zubov, K. Alexandrov and B. Sokolov is simply tiresome. When all this liberal-historical Vlasovism is trying to hide behind pseudo-monarchism and pseudo-democracy.
  19. +1
    16 January 2017 17: 55
    Quote: JS20
    Quote: Omich
    Kiev Special Military District, Odessa Military District, Western Special, Leningrad and others.

    When did all these counties die? And when did 1941 end? I'll tell you, December 31.

    Sorry, it makes no sense to debate with someone who is too lazy to google on the topics discussed.
    1. 0
      17 January 2017 12: 14
      Omich do not pay attention liberalists are not treated wassat
  20. 0
    17 January 2017 17: 01
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    But in the Russian Empire in 1913, sulfur was imported from Italy, pyrites - from Spain, saltpeter - from Chile. There is no production of the necessary varnishes and paints, they have to be imported.
    So the chemical industry and the Bolsheviks failed, that's what Zhukov said about the Lend-Lease:
    We had no explosives, gunpowder. There was nothing to equip rifle cartridges. The Americans really helped us out with gunpowder, explosives.
    We had one capsule factory, in Murom, and he worked on supplies from the USA: varnishes, foil, initiating explosives. About varnishes and paints the same thing, in the USSR there were none, well, not counting the burda that the household owners sold.
    1. 0
      18 January 2017 07: 22
      my friend veteran66 throw off the link to Zhukov's words? In 1917, the volume of production of chemical products increased 1932 times as compared with 1913, while the gross output of all industry increased 4,7 times. Large enterprises for the production of synthetic ammonia and nitrogen fertilizers were built (Chernorechensky chemical plant in 2,7, Bereznikovsky in 1927, Novomoskovsky in 1932, Gorlovsky in 1933), phosphorus fertilizers (Voskresensky in 1933, Nevsky in 1931), chemical fibers and threads (Mogilevsky in 1931, Klinsky in 1930, Leningradsky in 1931). To increase the production of synthetic resins and plastics, the Okhta chemical plant (1930), the Kemerovo plant "Karbolit" (1931) were expanded. In 1932, the mining and chemical plant "Apatit" (based on the Khibinsko field), which made it possible to abandon the import of phosphate raw materials and start exporting it to many countries. The Solikamsk potash plant was built on the basis of the Verkhnekamsky potash salt deposit discovered in 1931. By 1925, the production of chemical and petrochemical products in comparison with 1940 had increased 1913 times, and the chemical industry of the USSR took the 18th place in the world "Chemical industry in the USSR
      rustrana.rf ›article.php? nid = 33834The basis for the creation of large specialized enterprises for the production of fertilizers, chemical fibers and threads, the processing of synthetic resins and plastics was integrated automation and mechanization, the introduction of large unit capacity units (see Chemical and petroleum engineering). The industry organized the production of organic synthesis products, polymeric materials and plastics. Large associations for the production of chemical fibers and threads have been created. In 1971-75, many progressive technological processes were developed, improved, and introduced; the unit capacities of units for the production of some of the most important products increased 2-5 times. Almost 1,5 times expanded research, design and experimental work, increased their effectiveness. The level of mechanization and automation of production has also increased; automated control systems have been introduced at a number of enterprises. The quality and range of chemical products improved, for example, the average nutrient content in mineral fertilizers increased from 29% in 1970 to 36% in 1975, the share of synthetic fibers and threads in the total production of chemical fibers and threads increased from 27 to 38%, respectively, the proportion of new species paints and varnishes - from 49 to 55%, etc. lol
      1. +1
        18 January 2017 10: 46
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        Large enterprises were built

        There is a feeling that nothing has been built anywhere in the world. And only in the USSR was something built.
        All your "numbers" are empty. It is necessary to look not by the list of construction or production output, but by comparative results. Taking into account the quality of this very product.
        However, the "witnesses of socialism" never compare this way. Because they know that in comparison with "decaying capitalism" their "socialism" has always been in the priest. On the letter "Ж"
        1. 0
          18 January 2017 11: 44
          JS20 Well, I'm waiting for rebuttal! Only without verbiage with links! belay
          1. +1
            18 January 2017 11: 46
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            JS20 Well, I'm waiting for rebuttal! Only without verbiage with links!

            - in vain, IMHO, wait
            - it is not capable of such request
  21. 0
    17 January 2017 20: 18
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    In the park of metalworking equipment of the country, 94% was domestic.

    and who argues with this, I'm not talking about machines in general, but about PRECISION CNC machines. For some reason, at our factory, all the critical parts were manufactured on imported machines, and there were clearly not 6% of the machine stock in them. I won’t lie, I won’t tell you the exact number, but of the 20 machines in the workshop, 6-7 were imported, two of them with hieroglyphs, judging by the characteristic small ovals on many of them, most likely Korean. And the best example of our lack of normal machine tools was the 1936 rotary machine made in USA, brought as a trophy from Germany, on which parts were finished.
    1. 0
      18 January 2017 07: 48
      veteran66 did you work in the factory? belay apparently already in our time, but now most are bought abroad! but as a person who has been caught more than once in mildly speaking fantasies, I can’t take a word! laughing
      1. 0
        18 January 2017 10: 11
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        did you work at the factory

        Yes, and I already wrote about this to you like that, and I worked just in the heyday of terry socialism, sorry, developed.
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        but how a person has been caught more than once on a fantasy to say the least

        you have fantasies, I can confirm my every biography step with documents, and not with links to other people's fakes on the Internet
        1. 0
          18 January 2017 10: 53
          oh well you veteran66 with your baggage of knowledge you place only in the current school! laughing well confirm belay
          1. 0
            18 January 2017 13: 47
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            you place only in the current school!

            Thank! Again, a compliment to me, the current school, they say, needs teachers of the HIGHEST QUALIFICATION))))
        2. +1
          18 January 2017 10: 54
          Quote: veteran66
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          but how a person has been caught more than once on a fantasy to say the least

          you have fantasies, I can document every step of my biography,

          That's not what he meant. If you write something unflattering about "socialism", then according to the "witnesses of socialism" you are lying. This is what they call "caught in fantasies."
          After all, everyone knows ("all", they are, of course) that life was more beautiful than under poverty and half-starved "socialism". At the same time, they take as an example ONLY the 15-year period of the first jump in oil prices, when famines and "lean years" finally ended in the USSR. Those. what in the USSR was called "developed socialism". Although abundance was only a dream then. They ignore the rest of the periods of "socialism".
          1. +1
            18 January 2017 13: 49
            Quote: JS20
            according to the "witnesses of socialism" you are lying.

            and what to take from them, they lived in dreams (the building of communism), in dreams about the past (sausages according to 2.20) and stay. So after all, they will die without regaining consciousness, like the last general secretary.
            1. 0
              18 January 2017 17: 57
              Quote: veteran66
              So after all, they will die without regaining consciousness, like the last general secretary.

              This is still nothing. Worse, such ... figures crawl along the Runet and tell everyone "for a wonderful life under socialism." A lot of time has passed since then, not all of this "socialism" has been caught. And who found, not everyone clearly remembers. And after all, someone in these delusional fables can and believe. That's the trouble.
          2. 0
            18 January 2017 14: 40
            Quote: JS20
            At the same time, they take as an example ONLY the 15-year period of the first jump in oil prices, when famines and "lean years" finally ended in the USSR. Those. what in the USSR was called "developed socialism". Although abundance was only a dream then. They ignore the rest of the periods of "socialism".

            Yes, you look when the USSR built the first pipe to Europe! It was at this time, during developed socialism. Abundance in the USSR was very easy to achieve, it was enough only to increase prices while maintaining wages. Even better is to switch to market pricing for at least light and food industry products, otherwise the State Planning Commission planned to release everything up to the last button, and even allocated resources only for the plan!
            And if only "fraternal aid" to underdeveloped countries could be reduced by at least 50%, and if only the price scissors were eliminated. on the prom. the products of the countries of Eastern Europe in comparison with the goods from the USSR ... We bought everything from them at world prices, and sold our own at domestic prices!
            The issue under the USSR was not in the social system, but in the form of government in this system, and even in the people who stood at the leadership of the USSR.
            1. 0
              18 January 2017 16: 38
              Quote: andj61
              The issue under the USSR was not in the social system, but in the form of government in this system, and even in the people who stood at the leadership of the USSR.

              under normal social order, such people would not be at the helm
            2. 0
              18 January 2017 18: 27
              Quote: andj61
              Abundance in the USSR was very easy to achieve, it was enough only to increase prices while maintaining wages.

              As a result, they would get hunger. The people in the USSR did not fatten at all. And there were no products in the stores, not because someone bought them and ate in three sips. They simply weren't there. Physically.
              Quote: andj61
              Even better - go to market pricing for at least light and food products

              It was impossible, because contradicted the commandments of "socialism".
              Quote: andj61
              And if only "fraternal aid" to underdeveloped countries were to be reduced by at least 50%

              It was impossible, because in this way "socialism" tried to exercise its pseudo-missionaryism.
              Quote: andj61
              yes if you eliminate the scissors in prices. on prom. products of countries of Eastern Europe compared with goods from the USSR ... They bought everything from them at world prices, but sold their products at domestic prices.

              And that was pseudo-missionary work. Which quite ozheademo ended in collapse.
              Quote: andj61
              The issue under the USSR was not in the social system, but in the form of government in this system, and even in the people who stood at the leadership of the USSR.

              The social system ("socialism") also dictated the form of government. There were two of them in the history of "socialism" in the USSR, the slaveholding and the feudal ("now", "developed socialism") OEF. In the end, the "high priests of the cult" settled on feudalism, since "under the knife" none of the Soviet bosses wanted to. And the senile at the helm of "developed socialism" also suited them. Exactly from the same considerations.
              There was still a period before 1927, before "socialism", when the OEF in the USSR was also feudal and then the USSR was engaged in the "development of the NEP", i.e. "state capitalism".
              But it was a long time ago. And based on the realities of the time, the collapse of "developed socialism" was just a matter of time. Or it was necessary to break back, into the slave-holding OEF, into "real socialism." Or forward to "state capitalism" under the roof of "socialism", which Gorbachev tried to do. No third was given.
              But by the beginning of the 90s, "socialism" was already so annoying that it was decided to build "state capitalism" in the post-Soviet space (except for the Baltic states) without it. This is where "socialism" in the post-Soviet space ended.
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 11: 53
                Quote: JS20
                As a result, they would get hunger. The people in the USSR did not fatten at all. And there were no products in the stores, not because someone bought them and ate in three sips. They simply weren't there. Physically.

                Did not have? You are deeply mistaken! There would be no less food than it is now, and there are even more fish, pork, and beef (except for the last couple of years). They fed half of the world and kept low wages and low prices. And it was possible to transfer part of the products to the market sector. And they did it! For example, boiled-smoked and uncooked smoked sausages were transferred to the so-called "cooperative" sector at the end of the 80s - they immediately went on sale! It was in the late 80s. At the same time, sausages were cheaper than on the black market - 9-10 rubles per 1 kg. In the state trade, they were at 5-5,5 rubles per kg, and on the black market, a stick at 400g. walked in five.
                Socialism does not prohibit the market and various types of property at all. In the constitution of the USSR in the cape of a separate type of property was collective-farm cooperative. And single handicraftsmen were, however, under Khrushchev pressed them, but based on ideology, and not on socialist legislation. Stalin didn’t press them!
                Quote: JS20
                The social system ("socialism") also dictated the form of government. There were two of them in the history of "socialism" in the USSR, the slaveholding and the feudal ("now", "developed socialism") OEF. In the end, the "high priests of the cult" settled on feudalism, since "under the knife" none of the Soviet bosses wanted to. And the senile at the helm of "developed socialism" also suited them. Exactly from the same considerations.

                Here you simply bent and bent. The system did not dictate and could not dictate the form of government, especially the gerontological one!
                And there were many different forms - China, Cuba, Yugoslavia, East Germany, Poland, etc.
                And about the senility that suits everyone at the helm, too, is nonsense. The struggle for power in the leadership of the USSR was, and not frail. Sick Brezhnev, who himself wanted to retire, arranged them only as a possible compromise, and not as a specific person. It’s just that it was not possible to agree on someone else, and they tortured a terminally ill person.
                The collapse of socialism was not predetermined. Would become instead of Gorbachev, for example, Romanov - and it could have been different without chatter.
                Yes, and it was only necessary to clean up the distribution of resources, stop starting new giant construction projects, stop providing free assistance to everyone who got into it, including cannibals, optimize defense spending (not get involved in a thoughtless arms race, but answer to a minimum, preserving your resources ) - and the USSR would remain now. What can I say - in the middle of 1991 no one seriously believed in the collapse of the USSR, everyone believed that these difficulties were temporary and we would overcome them.
  22. 0
    17 January 2017 20: 21
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    included in the "Guinness Book of Records"
    But did I say that it is not common?
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    in service with the armies and special forces of 106 countries.
    mostly "banana" and poor, well, the former socialist camp. Do you at least read before you answer. And your boorish communication once again proves the absence of arguments.
    1. +1
      18 January 2017 07: 29
      my friend veteran66 ha ha ha read at your leisure where AK is made! be very surprised in such developed countries as Germany, the USA, the DPRK! lol but how to communicate with people who constantly lie lol In the USA, they started selling the Kalashnikov AK-47 ...
      lastday.club ›v-ssha-nachali-prodavat ... kalashnikova
      ...
      1. +1
        18 January 2017 11: 07
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        in such developed countries as Germany, USA, DPRK!

        DPRK developed country? Oh well. Insanity grows stronger.
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        In the USA, they started selling the Kalashnikov AK-47 ...

        Are you able to somehow understand the difference between the terms "started selling" and "is in service"? Looks like no.
        And they can sell different things there. And produce for sale all over the world, why not? Exotic. But this is "production", this is hand-made, a drop in the ocean.
        1. 0
          18 January 2017 13: 52
          Quote: JS20
          Are you able to understand the difference between the terms "started selling" and "is in service"?

          where are such conclusions? If he cannot read the three lines in a post together, communism will catch his eye. According to the syllables, he answers.
          1. 0
            18 January 2017 18: 42
            Quote: veteran66
            According to the syllables, he answers.

            Yes, no, he answers voluminously.
            Somewhere I got in electronic form some sort of Raikomovsky training manual, and spars out from there in whole blocks. Indiscriminately. Copied - pasted, everything is simple.
            I really thought this Soviet rubbish would never see anywhere else. Was wrong.
  23. 0
    17 January 2017 20: 24
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    so, according to the general indicator of manufactured vehicles of the USSR

    were horse-drawn carts and bicycles also counted? I gave you specific figures both for the USSR as a whole and for individual factories "there", why are you pushing slogans to me from the manual?
    1. 0
      18 January 2017 07: 32
      dear veteran66 you read the link! I’ll repeat for you the very gifted:. By the 80th year, the Soviet automobile industry had achieved significant results in mass production: thus, in terms of the total indicator of manufactured vehicles, the USSR reached the 5th line in the world, losing to Japan, United States, Germany and France. History of the Soviet automobile industry of the 80s
      blamper.ru ›auto ... avtoproma ... sovetskogo-avtoproma-80
      ! if you have an objection that this is not so give at least links and do not carry nonsense!
      !
      1. 0
        18 January 2017 08: 38
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        blamper.ru ›auto ... avtoproma ... sovetskogo-avtoproma-80

        Do you consider this reliable facts? it’s now fashionable in the United States to back up their fakes with websites from the Internet, I have already recommended that you contact the Kerry department, they are appreciated there. I gave you a link from a more reliable source, backed up by numbers, not slogans from the times of the USSR, then you could carry anything, Soviet citizens did not have access to information. You compare the production figures of one single plant and the USSR as a whole and get the place that the USSR occupied in the automotive industry. Or why do you need a head? slogans scream?
        1. 0
          18 January 2017 10: 50
          veteran66 the USSR didn’t take 5th place in the world! not only communist propaganda is lying and Wikipedia is lying! By the 1980s, the Soviet automobile industry had achieved obvious successes in mass production: the total production (2,2 million each in 1985 and 1986) of the USSR ranked fifth in the world (second only to Japan, the USA, Germany, France), truck production - third place, bus production - first. USSR automobile industry - Wikipedia
          ru.wikipedia.org ›Automotive industry of the USSR! Yes, I sincerely regret you! crying
  24. 0
    17 January 2017 20: 27
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    so why it was not built if the Bolsheviks came to power in October 1917

    so the war began, the first world war. Did you suddenly forget the story? And why did you repeat the slogan about the fifth line three times? In the training manual, too, or is it nervous?
    1. 0
      18 January 2017 07: 39
      my friend veteran66 there’s no excuse for myself, because on the contrary it was necessary to force the construction of a factory in the army there was just a lack of cars lol
  25. 0
    17 January 2017 20: 33
    uncle Murzik,
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Автомобильная_промы
    sslennost_SSSR
    read the nameplate, and then compare with the factories Toyota, Ford, GM, Volkswagen learn a lot
    1. 0
      18 January 2017 07: 41
      You are again, as always, a lie, this is what is written in the wiki! "By the 1980s, the Soviet automotive industry had made obvious strides in mass production: in terms of total production (2,2 million each in 1985 and 1986), the USSR ranked fifth in the world (second only to Japan, USA, Germany, France), in the production of trucks - the third place, in the production of buses - the first. Automotive industry of the USSR - Wikipedia
      ru.wikipedia.org ›Automotive industry of the USSR lol
      1. 0
        18 January 2017 08: 50
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        you again, as always lying, this is what is written on the wiki!

        what's the lie? Fifth place out of five is a big achievement? With such a disastrous production difference? Wiki information can only be viewed in terms of numbers, the texts there need to be checked and checked. The same slogans from Soviet textbooks and manuals, you need to think a bit, getting information. About the same buses, if the truck on which they put the seats in the back and covered the roof (PAZ, KavZ) is considered a bus, then yes, undoubtedly the first place. But I asked about competitiveness, shit can be done on the shaft as much as you like, only who needs it?
  26. 0
    17 January 2017 21: 08
    Quote: Omich
    It makes no sense to talk about the living conditions of workers in the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR, it’s ridiculous even to compare 12-14 working days and 8 hours

    By the beginning of the 1880s, the working day at various industrial enterprises averaged 11-12 hours a day, in the mid-1890s it decreased to 10-11 hours. Some enterprises had an 8-hour work day.
    The working day in industrialized European countries at that time was about 1 hour less. However, the annual working hours in Russia were significantly less than in other countries.
    So, in 1897, a Russian worker was engaged in production no more than 2592 hours per year (in some sectors this indicator was even lower), while in the USA the working hours were 2700 hours per year.
    By the 17th year (despite the war), the working day decreased to 8 hours. For comparison, remember the length of the working day in the USSR in the Great Patriotic War.
    1. +1
      18 January 2017 02: 13
      Quote: veteran66
      For comparison, remember the length of the working day in the USSR in the Great Patriotic War.

      Judging by the memoirs of workers of those years, from 12 hours to 16 hours (with overlapping shifts) per day, with completely poor nutrition. In winter, they slept mainly in factories, as transport did not really go, and being late for a shift of more than 20 minutes, this is from 5 to 8 years in camps. Just existence and survival actually.
      Minors were officially hired en masse. Many of them had no other choice; they could not survive on dependents' cards. In addition, the cards only gave the right to BUY food. And for this you had to have money. Here is such a continuous "Leningrad".
      1. +1
        18 January 2017 07: 36
        JS20 you apparently do not understand that there is a concept of martial law! lol
        1. +1
          18 January 2017 11: 21
          Quote: Uncle Murzik
          you probably don’t understand that there is a concept of martial law!

          I do not understand. I don't understand why you call the elevation of people in the Soviet rear to a bestial state "martial law". What does the term "martial law" have to do with the lawlessness the Bolsheviks were doing then in their rear?
  27. 0
    18 January 2017 08: 19
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    throw off the link to Zhukov’s words?

    hammer in the search for a lease-lease, there, on Wikipedia, there are statements not only by Zhukov, you will learn a lot of new things.
    1. +1
      18 January 2017 10: 38
      veteran66 that you drove on the pope, a link to the studio, Mr. Sovramshi! wassat
      1. 0
        18 January 2017 14: 25
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        link to the studio mr.

        If you are banned in Google, please, I do not mind https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CB%E5%ED%E4-%EB%E8
        %E7#.D0.9B.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B4-.D0.BB.D0.B8.D0.B7._
        .D0.9E.D1.86.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BA.D0.B8_.D0.B8_.D0.B
        C.D0.BD.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D1.8F_.D0.B3.D0.BE.D1.8
        1.D1.83.D0.B4.D0.B0.D1.80.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.B5
        .D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8B.D1.85_.D0.B8_.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B
        5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8B.D1.85_.D0.B4.D0.B5.D1.8F.D1.8
        2.D0.B5.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0.B9.2C_.D0.BF.D0.BE.D0.BB.D
        0.B8.D1.82.D0.B8.D0.BA.D0.BE.D0.B2.2C_.D0.B8.D1.8
        1.D1.82.D0.BE.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.BA.D0.BE.D0.B2.2C_.D
        0.BF.D1.83.D0.B1.D0.BB.D0.B8.D1.86.D0.B8.D1.81.D1
        .82.D0.BE.D0.B2 Supply Value
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
  28. 0
    18 January 2017 08: 27
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    expanded ... work, increased their effectiveness. The level has grown .... .... at a number of enterprises have been introduced ... Quality has improved

    Why are these slogans of the Congresses of the CPSU? are these facts? Where is all this in the national economy? Why in the Ministry of Industry of the Ukrainian SSR there were computers officially bought in the German Democratic Republic and Bulgaria (that is also an electronic power), but actually bought in Austria and the USA (licenses) With such a development of chemistry, why were imported paints and glue used to produce the same VAZ. Where is all this improvement, expansion, efficiency?
  29. 0
    18 January 2017 08: 32
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    be very surprised in such developed countries as Germany, USA, DPRK! but how to communicate with people who are constantly lying In the United States, they began to sell the Kalashnikov AK-47 ...

    Haha three times, especially about
    such developed countries as the DPRK!
    You can produce anything, now in many countries "katana" are stamped as souvenirs and what is this superweapon? Of the developed countries, only Finland (Valmet) and Israel (Galil) produced AK for their army, and they were pretty much altered, and they are already being removed from service. And all other producing countries, either "banana republics", or make it as a civilian weapon. Don't juggle with facts.
    1. +1
      18 January 2017 10: 12
      veteran66 well you give a damn! if we produce Volkswagen it is not a souvenir! but that Israel and Finland are not developed countries! lol
      1. 0
        18 January 2017 10: 28
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        if we produce Volkswagen it is not a souvenir!

        distort again, I'm talking about weapons, and weapons, if not armed, then - civilian, incl. and souvenir
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        and that Israel and Finland are not developed countries!
        and if you carefully read?
        Of developed countries AK for its army produced only Finland (Valmet) and Israel (Galil)

        You definitely need Kerry’s apparatus, a fantastic ability to distort facts
        1. +1
          18 January 2017 10: 30
          my friend veteran66 yes you even in your nonsense psaki in soles is not good! tongueand civilian weapons are souvenirs! belay
          1. 0
            18 January 2017 10: 32
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            and you even psaki is not good for soles!

            of course! I’m not lying))) and I don’t admit blunders, but you are heading above Psaki laughing With what I congratulate you! drinks
    2. 0
      18 January 2017 11: 38
      Quote: veteran66
      Finland only (Valmet)

      That still "weapon state".
      Quote: veteran66
      and Israel (Galil)

      Galil, this is a deep processing of Finnish Valmet. And she even had nothing to do with AK.
      Galil, this is an alteration of the AK-47 for a self-loading rifle on a rifle cartridge. For some reason and for some reason, it could shoot with automatic fire, i.e. was actually an exotic SFAW weapon. If automatic fire was removed from her, then self-loading was completely wow. As a small-scale weapon for special operations (or army service) is quite suitable. A kind of Israeli SVD.
      Galil on a 5,56 × 45 mm cartridge is stupid in any case. Therefore, M16 of her from the army of Israel and survived.
      1. 0
        18 January 2017 14: 31
        Quote: JS20
        Galil, this is a deep processing of the Finnish Valmet.

        so at least somehow prove to this witness of the coming of communism that this AK in industrialized countries and tries is not needed.
        1. +1
          18 January 2017 18: 58
          Quote: veteran66
          witness to the coming of communism that this AK in industrialized countries and tries is not needed.

          So it’s obvious, nowhere is it there. But they do not give up, inventing that:
          1. This Americans do not allow anyone (lies).
          2. They do not allow anyone, but actively produce themselves (lies).
          3. Galil is AK (lies). By the way, from the same series "the Merkava suspension is a copy of the T-34 suspension" (lies).
          4. Valmet is AK (half-truth, only the first samples on the Soviet cartridge).
          And yet, a little off topic, but one of my favorites in Runet, "FN FAL copy of SVT-40". Everything, after that, you can safely precipitate, having fun like a child.
          The "witnesses of socialism" desperately need successes, the achievements of this very "socialism". And they are not. So they invent them. Actually, they do not invent them, the Propaganda and Agitation Department of the Central Committee of the CPSU invented them. And they retell these inventions. It is holy to believe in them.
          1. +1
            20 January 2017 09: 51
            that's what they write on Discovery! 1st place - Best of the best

            AK-47 automatic assault rifle
            Caliber: 7,62 mm
            Muzzle velocity: 710 m / s.
            Rate of Fire: 600 fps / min
            Store capacity: 30 cartridges
            The universal killing machine, the most deadly weapon ever created by man - according to statistics, the number of people killed from the Kalashnikov assault rifle, many times greater than the number of victims of atomic bombings or killed in any other way. 1 / 5 of all world stocks of small arms make up Kalashnikovs. Countless clones and modifications, 60 years of military service in all the hot corners of the planet. By the number of armies that adopted this weapon, Kalashnikov can only compete with FN FAL. AK-47 is present on the national flag of Mozambique.

            How did the Russians manage to achieve such an impressive result? American experts are smiling and shrugging their shoulders - this is probably the only time that America has lost the Soviet Union to smithereens. The reasons for the frantic popularity of "Kalash" - low cost, ease of maintenance, reliability, reliability, and once again RELIABILITY.
  30. 0
    18 January 2017 08: 40
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    there’s no excuse for it, so it was necessary on the contrary to force the construction of the plant

    it’s necessary, who argues, but supplies of equipment from abroad, funds, people ... that’s not grown together. Why did the Bolsheviks in the 20s did not build anything at all. it was also necessary.
    1. +1
      18 January 2017 09: 31
      darling veteran66 you probably don’t understand that by 1920 the Bolsheviks were in power for only three years, but how many Romanovs? and seven years later they produced a serial car. The automobile industry of the USSR is the industry of the USSR. The first completely Soviet car AMO-F-15 was produced by the AMO factory in 1924.
      1. 0
        18 January 2017 10: 21
        how do you like to distort facts
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        do not understand that by 1920 the Bolsheviks were in power for only three years

        I wrote in the 20s, which means until 31.12.1929/13/XNUMX, it turns XNUMX years old
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        and how many romanovs?

        The Romanovs are 300 years old, they only invented a car suitable for conveyor production in the early 1900s, by 1914 four car plants were bought and construction began, by the 16th, as I already wrote, Russia was supposed to get thousands of cars, but even without that she already produced her cars.
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        The first fully Soviet car AMO-F-15

        Why was he completely Soviet? He even has the letter F in his index, which means Fiat. And how many of them were released at the already established production under the Romanovs ?? And why until the 30s they did not produce cars at the other four acquired factories? Maybe it’s enough to push the slogans, I’ve eaten them even during the commies.
        1. +1
          18 January 2017 10: 35
          veteran66 that you, like a grandmother in the bazaar, could have been! and how much you produced under the tsar's priest? laughing
          1. 0
            18 January 2017 14: 34
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            The USSR in a short time began the production of cars and then tractors and this is a fact!

            so time goes on, even after 30 years of active production in the world, the Bolsheviks had not launched the production of cars, in fact, at one factory, but compare with world production? Compared to the same America, Pshik!
        2. +1
          18 January 2017 15: 46
          Quote: veteran66
          Why was he completely Soviet?

          It was completely produced in the USSR. And a little improved in addition.
          For comparison: in Tsarist Russia they were assembled from ready-made imported Italian sets. Feel the difference.
          1. 0
            18 January 2017 16: 23
            Quote: murriou
            For comparison: in Tsarist Russia they were assembled from ready-made imported Italian sets. Feel the difference.
            let's feel
            The first car was assembled on the night of November 1, 1924
            In 1911, FIAT designer Carlo Cavalli designed the FIAT-15 truck
            normally, the car was already removed from the assembly line (in 1922), and we started production, according to other people's drawings. In tsarist Russia, it was produced only two years before the nationalization of the plant, and among the Bolsheviks only four years were prepared for release.
            At first, the production of cars was relatively small: by March 31, 1928 (for 3 and a half years), 1000 cars were manufactured
            10, 113, 425 pieces by years, when the king then collected more
            In total, the plant collected 1319 trucks, of which 432 units. in 1917
            1. +2
              18 January 2017 17: 01
              Quote: veteran66
              we started production, according to other people's drawings.

              Yes, for starters - by strangers. In tsarist Russia they couldn’t even do this.
              Then they began to make their drawings, with this tsarist Russia was completely in a deep, ahem, backwardness.

              Quote: veteran66
              10, 113, 425 pieces by years, when the king then collected more
              In total, the plant collected 1319 trucks, of which 432 units. in 1917

              And including under the tsar, for a couple of months of the process just begun - nothing at all, but under the Bolsheviks - more than 2/3:
              779 units in 1918 and 108 units in 1919.
              .
              Since you started quoting Wikipedia, do it honestly and to the end lol But anyway, thanks for the help laughing

              And now back to reality completely. By the way, did you forget how to read, or understand what you read?
              Figures of the ASSEMBLY in imperial time - from READY sets. Screwdriver assembly.
              Figures of PRODUCTION in Soviet times - FULLY Soviet production from completely Soviet materials completely by Soviet workers. Tsarist Russia did not master it, the USSR mastery.

              And in the 2nd five-year plan, ALL automobile production in tsarist Russia, including a screwdriver assembly, was blocked in less than a month,
              ALL the tsarist production of "Russian" aircraft, also including the screwdriver assembly, was shut down in less than a year.

              At the same time, the tsarist "Russian" cars and airplanes were made on imported units or even ready-made sets, Soviet ones were made entirely in the USSR.

              How do you understand the reception? laughing
              1. 0
                18 January 2017 17: 55
                Quote: murriou
                Yes, for starters - by strangers. In tsarist Russia they couldn’t even do this.

                Quote: murriou
                By the way, did you forget how to read, or understand what you read?

                Quote: murriou
                Since you started quoting Wikipedia, do it honestly and to the end

                Your words? But on Wikipedia
                By this time, the plant had 163 drawings received from Italy, as well as 513 manufactured already at AMO in previous years.
                when you consider that
                The preparation for the in-house production of this truck at AMO began in January 1924.
                , and we are talking about previous years, then the drawings were just "royal", and partly Italian.
                Quote: murriou
                and with the Bolsheviks-more than 2/3:

                this is, as you like to say, even by the past reserves and working engineers of the "tsarist temper" (parallel to the Stalinist legacy, on which we supposedly still live) I understand you, welcome!
                1. +1
                  19 January 2017 10: 02
                  Quote: veteran66
                  the drawings were just "royal", and partly Italian.

                  "Tsarist" drawings were either copies of Italian, or taken from Italian parts. They didn’t do anything of their own at the AMO in tsarist times, so where would they get their drawings? lol

                  And it’s nothing that you have already been caught several times in LIES, and all of you have been dewy, and after that, being completely overwhelmed by what, are you trying to broadcast something else to someone? laughing laughing laughing

                  Summing up:
                  1. In tsarist Russia, they mastered only the screwdriver assembly of Italian finished sets from Fiat. Oh yes, we also learned how to draw drawings on them laughing

                  2. In this "difficult" business, the Bolsheviks succeeded twice as much as before the October revolution, and ten times more than under the tsar: at an assembly rate of no more than 35-40 sets per month (432 for the entire 1917, remember, right? ), before the February revolution there could be no more than 70-80 of them;
                  about 8 +/- 300 sets go to the interim government from February to October, 20 months,
                  and the Bolsheviks collected about the same 70-80 sets in 1917, one and a half times more in 1919 (the remainder of the sets) and ten times more in 1918. laughing

                  3. In 1924, the Bolsheviks began SERIAL production of cars AMO-F-15 FULLY Soviet-made. Well, according to the Italian model, it’s no secret, but they couldn’t do this under the tsar.

                  4. In 1930-32, the Bolsheviks opened several factories with modern large-scale production of cars and tractors.
                  This, too, was an unattainable level for tsarist Russia, unlike all the developed countries that were modern with it.

                  And how many more times do you need to poke * your face * into these facts so that you learn to notice and remember them, and not "forget"? laughing laughing laughing
                  1. 0
                    19 January 2017 12: 26
                    Quote: murriou
                    And it’s nothing so much that you’ve been caught several times at the LIE,

                    This is a "lie" from an article about the AMO F-15 car, and everything else is your speculation, so poke your head ... in the sense of the facts themselves laughing laughing
                    Quote: murriou
                    In 1924, the Bolsheviks began SERIAL production of AMO-F-15 cars FULLY Soviet-made. Well, according to the Italian model, it’s no secret, but they couldn’t do this under the tsar.

                    and you also distort the facts, under the tsar the cars were collected only a year, or even less, and the Bolsheviks were able to collect, well, a very completely Soviet car, already seven years later. What else is there to talk with you about?
                  2. 0
                    19 January 2017 16: 14
                    Quote: murriou
                    "Tsarist" drawings were either copies of Italian, or taken from Italian parts. They didn’t do anything of their own at the AMO in tsarist times, so where would they get their drawings?

                    Well, these are your speculations, and since they have not been proven, then it’s a lie
                    Quote: murriou
                    the drawings were either copies of Italian or taken from Italian parts.

                    and the "completely Soviet truck" made of parts not removed from the Italian drawings?
                2. +1
                  19 January 2017 10: 08
                  Quote: veteran66
                  this is, as you like to say, by the past reserves and working engineers of the "tsarist hardening"

                  Past stocks were only completed Italian sets in 1917-1919.
                  Which, incidentally, also completely destroys the crystal bakery myth of the industry allegedly destroyed by the Bolsheviks - they did even twice as much as before the Bolsheviks laughing

                  And the beginning = own = production, albeit according to the Italian model - this is a completely different stage.

                  And before you go on talking again about the workers and engineers of the tsarist quench, answer: WHY the same engineers and workers for the 7+ years of the tsar’s automobile industry, in peacetime, at the time of the heyday of the supposedly advanced Russian empire, did NOT do what the Bolsheviks did ? lol laughing
                  1. 0
                    19 January 2017 12: 31
                    Quote: murriou
                    Did NOT do what the Bolsheviks did?

                    in a year??? But the Bolsheviks? And after seven years, they stagnated the same place, sawing the same details with a file according to other people's drawings. Well, a jerk ....
                  2. 0
                    20 January 2017 09: 57
                    murriou do not try! This is a series of waist-high wooden!
  31. 0
    18 January 2017 08: 52
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    apparently do not understand that there is a concept of martial law!

    in 1914-1917 there was no war)))))
  32. 0
    18 January 2017 13: 53
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    the USSR did not take 5th place in the world!

    it’s not the first one that you shouted about so much on the entire Internet, but there’s nothing to say about the quality of this product.
  33. 0
    18 January 2017 14: 03
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    According to the US Department of Defense, the USSR had twice as many types of spacecraft and conducted five times more space launches than the United States.

    juggling the facts again? This is about military satellites. Only if we take into account the operating time and the number of unsuccessful launches, then the American group in space was larger. The efficiency of their devices was incomparably higher, because the optical resolution of their cameras was higher, and telemetry and radio equipment better
    Quote: Uncle Murzik
    Military race in space - USSR and USA.

    besides it there was also a "space race" https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%
    D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%
    D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0#.D0.A5.D1.80.D0.BE.
    D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.BA.D0.B0_.281957.E2.80.941975.29 and even a simple calculation of successful starts is not in our favor 36: 44
  34. +1
    18 January 2017 14: 05
    JS20,veteran66, uh-huh, no jerk. laughing
    Even before the first five-year plan, the USSR began to commercially and fully make trucks that in tsarist Russia were assembled from imported Italian sets.

    At the beginning of the first five-year plan, the USSR made SERIOUSLY its fighter planes, armored cars and tanks, and large-scale did its own light machine guns. Tsarist Russia also could not master all this in its entire history, despite the large number of proposed projects even before the WWII.

    At the beginning of the two five-year plans, the USSR produced DAY more cars and tractors than Tsarist Russia did for a YEAR at best.

    But for the inadequate, liberals and crystal bakers, this is all imperceptible and "does not matter" laughing laughing laughing
    1. +1
      18 January 2017 14: 37
      Quote: murriou
      At the beginning of the 2nd five-year period, the USSR produced DAY more

      well, yes, and b to compare how many more spaceships the USSR launched in 1965 compared to the 300 year history of the Romanov dynasty laughing You throw this Jesuit communist propaganda, and compare these figures with those of the United States or, at least, with France
      Quote: murriou
      At the beginning of the first five-year plan, the USSR made SERIOUSLY its fighter planes

      in 1914, Russia built (the only one in the world) four-engine heavy bombers (Sikorsky), as well as the best flying boats in the world (Grigorovich), and with the Bolsheviks they bought it all in the United States (or simply rifled)
      1. +2
        18 January 2017 15: 27
        Quote: veteran66
        in 1914, Russia built (the only one in the world) four-engine heavy bombers (Sikorsky)


        It is you, as usual for the crushers, who are lying. Namely, about "the only ones in the world", "the first in the world (among serial)", "the best in the world", etc.

        1. "Muromets" kind of went into a kind of series since April 1914. For September, as many as 5 copies were made, by December they brought a huge number of production to 7 copies, the state order of 10 copies was finally mastered already in 1915 laughing

        2. In 1914 the Muromites did not have a SINGLE sortie. The first, as it were, a combat sortie - February 1915, and that ended in nothing.

        3. In March 1914, i.e. a month BEFORE "Muromtsev", the Caproni plane went into series production.
        It was a THREE-engine, but its Isotta-Fraschini motors are 150hp. were more modern and more powerful than the German "Argus" 100-125hp each, on which the "Murom" flew, respectively, all Caproni's flight characteristics were better than those of Sikorsky.

        4. The production aircraft Caproni Ca.31 had a speed of 137 km / h versus 95-100 km / h in the pre-production and Kiev Muromtsevs, the ceiling of 4,8 km versus 1,5-3,0 km, the bomb load in the standard combat version up to 450kg versus 400kg.

        That is, according to ALL characteristics it is better than the "Murom", in speed and altitude - MUCH BETTER.

        5. Aircraft of this first generation, with minor improvements, Kaproni produced in about a year of production 269 copies, including for sale - even the developed countries of France, Great Britain and the USA bought them.

        Then Kaproni switched to improved models, and also produced them MASSIVE.

        Sikorsky, who had only a miserable industrial base of the tsarist empire, remained at a level not much higher than the first pre-production model, and the number of "IM" for the entire WWI was less than a hundred (figures from 60 to 76 are named, but the latter includes post-revolutionary products).

        6. Beginning at the end of 1915, Great Britain and Germany began to serially build aircraft that significantly surpassed the "Muromets", already backward by that time, which practically did not develop during WWI.
        In 1916, the superiority of foreign aircraft over the "Muromets" in terms of flight characteristics was already overwhelming, in 1917 it was even ridiculous to compare them.

        7. Developed countries created their aircraft on their own engines.
        Tsarist Russia did not have its own aircraft engines, took advantage of what remained of the pre-war era, or during the war it was planted by the Allies for wretchedness.
        1. 0
          18 January 2017 16: 08
          Quote: murriou
          This is you, as usual for the bakers, lie.

          Yes, lovers of stale rye, carrying out their exposing activities, "love to prypreh":
          Quote: murriou
          In March 1914, i.e. a month BEFORE "Muromtsev", the Caproni plane went into series production.
          and in fact
          Sikorsky nevertheless built the first multi-engine aircraft "Russian Vityaz" and on April 27, 1913 took it into the air.
          "Vityaz" became the prototype of all heavy aircraft in the world.
          The only person who decided to repeat the experience of Sikorsky was the Italian Gianni Kaproni.

          Quote: murriou
          It was a THREE-engine, but its Isotta-Fraschini motors are 150hp. were more modern and more powerful than the German "Argus" 100-125hp each, on which the "Muromets" flew,

          normal comparison, we take the early "Muromets" and compare it with the late series Caproni. Meanwhile IM "Kievsky" had engines 2 x 140 + 2 x 125, and Ilya Muromets E 4 x 220 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww1/im.html The speed of the last IM and Ka was equal to 137 km / h, while the MI was more lifting
          Quote: murriou
          Tsarist Russia did not have its own aircraft engines,

          did the Bolsheviks have? VK-105, which stood on Yaks is a deep modernization of the M-100 engine - Hispano-Suiza licensed engine, ASh-82 (La-5) was a further development of the M-62 engine, which in turn was a further development of the M-25 engine, which was created on the basis of the American engine Wright Cyclone, M-38 (MiG-3, Il-2) further development of the AM-35, which was a further development of the M-17, in turn the Soviet licensed copy of the German BMW VI. So much for your motors. And what about Grigorovich’s boats?
          1. +3
            18 January 2017 17: 40
            Quote: veteran66
            and in fact
            Sikorsky nevertheless built the first multi-engine aircraft "Russian Vityaz" and on April 27, 1913 took it into the air.

            But in fact, you have big problems with reading and understanding in Russian, like almost all "Russian patriots", when it comes to debunking the myths of baked goods with real facts laughing

            "Russian Vityaz" was an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, and I wrote about SERIAL.

            What is the fundamental difference? The experimental design shows the talent of the inventor, serial production - the possibility of INDUSTRY.

            And although it was very good with inventors and scientists in tsarist Russia, it’s out of the ordinary to apply their talents in industry.

            Quote: veteran66
            take the early "Muromets" and compare it with the late-series Caproni.

            Lying.
            For comparison, I took Caproni Sa.31, which went into the series BEFORE "IM".
            Caproni Ca.36 had a normal bomb load of 800kg, twice as many "Muromets", at a speed and altitude with this load at the level of the already mentioned Ca.31.
            Caproni Sa.4 used 270hp engines, the likes of which tsarist Russia was not even able to copy, and the bomb load of 1450kg was three times more than the "Murom".
            But Germany and England by that time were making planes with even more impressive characteristics, to which the "Muromites" were just like the moon on all fours.

            Quote: veteran66
            Ilya Muromets E 4 x 220

            You again fell for the LIES and * selective quoting * of the source you quoted.
            It is quite clear and written in Russian, but you "have not noticed" lol what:
            1. "Muromets E" was built only in 1917.
            At this time, even he lagged behind foreign counterparts in all respects incomparably.
            German medium bombers "Friedrichshafen G-III" and even then three times more bomb load were carried at a higher speed, altitude and range.
            And heavy bombers carried more than 2500 kg from the Germans and 800-900 kg from the British at the best speed and altitude indicators.
            France, inferior in bomb load to "Murom", and even more so to their counterparts from developed countries, but raised the speed and ceiling of its heavy bombers (up to 7,8 km at Moran-Saulnier), making them inaccessible to enemy fighters and anti-aircraft guns.

            2. There were only 3 examples of Muromtsev-E built. Like a series, yeah laughing
            220 hp was not enough for more. engines "Renault", the copying of which for tsarist Russia was a prohibitive task.

            3. The maximum speed of "Muromets-E" just reached the Caproni Sa.31 sample of 1914, the ceiling of 4 km did not reach it even 3 years later, the bomb load of 520 kg slightly exceeded the result of the Caproni of 1914 (450 kg) and SIGNIFICANTLY not reached the results of Caproni in 1916 (800 kg), as well as other analogues in developed countries already in 1916.

            More questions? lol
            1. 0
              18 January 2017 18: 11
              Quote: murriou
              I took for comparison

              Where? And then we'll figure out which of us is lying
              Quote: murriou
              At this time, even he lagged behind foreign counterparts in all respects incomparably.
              I have no doubt that the plane was built three years later, and progress during the war is just accelerating, but we are comparing THEM with Ca. And then, if you hit the bombers like that comparing the "weakness of the Republic of Ingushetia" with other countries, then let's draw a parallel and compare the Pe-8, in terms of its performance characteristics and serial production, with comparable B-17 and B-24, but we are talking about the Bolshevik jerk, so where is he jerk?
              1. 0
                19 January 2017 10: 23
                Quote: veteran66
                Where? And then we'll figure out which of us is lying

                Oh, you poor thing! crying
                I wanted to praise you - you brought for once a link to a sane and respected resource, "Corner of Heaven" is called.
                http://www.airwar.ru, если Вы собственные ссылки забыть успели laughing
                But it turns out that you didn’t get further than the Googleland, you don’t even know what you found the link to laughing laughing laughing
                Could you, poor thing, go on your own link and see. what is actually written there - and began to LY.

                So. here: and on this resource you cited, and partly even in the limit for your "level" Wikipedia, and on any other sane thematic resource, there are those numbers and facts into which I have already repeatedly poked your * face *.
                But to you all God's dew laughing

                Quote: veteran66
                aircraft built three years later

                For the umpteenth time you LIE?
                Serial Kaproni Sa.31 was produced from March 1914 in dozens per month.
                Serial IM was, as it were, produced, by plane per month, crying starting in April 1914.
                Caproni Aircraft Model 1914 was MUCH better than the IM of the same year. I have already given you the LTX figures several times, at a discount on your * unique abilities * laughing
                What are 3 years here, what are you talking about?

                But really 3 years later, in 1917, when there were as many as THREE laughing copy of "Muromets-E", yes, the world level has risen beyond the reach of Russia.
                1. 0
                  19 January 2017 12: 37
                  Quote: murriou
                  Could you, poor thing, go on your own link and see.

                  and went and looked, and you, as I understood, only read the letters incomprehensible, that I will not find confirmation from you to your "facts", only verbiage.
                  1. +1
                    19 January 2017 13: 15
                    Quote: veteran66
                    and went and looked ... that I will not find confirmation of your "facts" from you

                    Poor thing! crying Maybe you also need an ophthalmologist? Or to some other specialists? lol
                    Keep, do not lose: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww1/ca3.html
                    Good luck to you laughing
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 08: 11
                      Quote: murriou

                      Keep, do not lose: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww1/ca3.html
                      Good luck to you laughing

                      I’ve read it before you, so what, in fact, did you try to prove?
                      1. 0
                        20 January 2017 09: 17
                        Quote: veteran66
                        I read it before you

                        * looking at this rare specimen with great interest *

                        Share your secret: how did you manage to “fail to notice” during this “reading” exactly what I told you a dozen times, and every time you tried to argue with foaming at your mouth? laughing
          2. 0
            18 January 2017 17: 46
            Quote: veteran66
            VK-105, which stood on the Yaks is a deep modernization of the M-100 engine

            ..etc.

            Tsarist Russia was not able to at least copy the aircraft engines of developed countries without a significant deterioration in their characteristics, and the USSR was able to improve them.
            (In parentheses, in words, in capital letters: IMPROVE).

            Therefore, even your alleged accusations actually in themselves show significant achievements of the USSR in comparison with tsarist Russia laughing

            And most importantly, the Soviet aircraft built on these aircraft engines were FULLY made in the USSR and at the same time FULLY corresponded to the world level of performance.
            Neither one was feasible for tsarist Russia.
            1. 0
              18 January 2017 18: 22
              Quote: murriou
              and the USSR was able to improve them.
              (In parentheses, in words, in capital letters: IMPROVE).

              yeah, it improved so much that the very VK-107 (under which aircraft were designed back in the 41st) wasn’t brought to mind until the end of the war, and those that didn’t give TTX to the declared ones (ceiling up to 4 thousand m) and motor resources were limited.
              1. +1
                19 January 2017 13: 04
                Poor thing! For the umpteenth time you are running the same rake! laughing

                Every time you try to show your "knowledge" with a clever look, based on unread Wikipedia articles or picked up on some completely Internet garbage dumps, you will definitely blurt out some nonsense that immediately betrays your real deep illiteracy.

                So here.

                Quote: veteran66
                The VK-105, which stood on the Yaks, is a deep modernization of the M-100 engine - Hispano-Suiza licensed engine

                M-100 is the SOVIET designation of the SOVIET engine. Yes, it was a licensed copy, but the original was not called the M-100 at all, but Hispano-Suiza 12Y.

                Further. This original had a take-off power of 860hp.
                Exactly the same had the M-100, not a drop less.
                This now seems trivial, but for tsarist Russia this would be a great achievement.
                M-105, also known as VK-105, gave take-off power of 1100 h.p., in the PF modification - 1200 h.p., almost one and a half times more. Comments are needed? laughing


                Quote: veteran66
                ASH-82 (La-5) was a further development of the M-62 engine, which in turn was a further development of the M-25 engine, which was created on the basis of the American Wright Cyclone engine

                Yeah, yeah, and the T-34 comes from the Christie tank through about the same chain of intermediate stages laughing
                In general, all the tanks of the world come from FT-17 this time, and all tools and all weapons - from a stone ax lol laughing

                And now from your fantasies to reality.
                There were many Ryat Cyclone engines, you "forgot" to clarify the model, well, I will help you. Helping the poor is a godly business, as you know.
                It was a star-shaped nine-cylinder American Wright "Cyclone" R-1820-F3 with a capacity of 625 hp. g .. with a weight of 435 kg.

                The M-25 engine provided parameters no worse than the original (433kg, 625hp).
                M-25V from the prototype differed increased to 775 hp takeoff power and altitude of 3000 m, and on this engine the I-15 aircraft set a world altitude record of 1936.

                The M-62 of Shvetsov’s design was already quite distantly related to the M-25 and its ancestor, and the takeoff power was 1000l.s. - more than one and a half times higher, the M-63 reached 1100 hp, the M-82 (AS-82) 1540 hp, in the AS-82FN version it could hold take-off power indefinitely, which was the achievement of the world level.

                Quote: veteran66
                M-38 (MiG-3, IL-2) further development of the AM-35, which was a further development of the M-17, in turn the Soviet licensed copy of the German BMW VI.

                Yeah, yeah, only the BMW engine gave 500 hp, M-35 1200 hp, M-38F 1500 hp under equal conditions laughing

                Quote: veteran66
                So much for your motors.

                YES. These were their motors.
                Read, enlighten, remember, so that later you have less to poke * face * again in the same FACTS laughing
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 08: 54
                  Quote: murriou
                  Yeah, yeah, and the T-34 comes from the Christie tank through about the same chain of intermediate stages

                  what tanks? What are you talking about? "Horses, people mixed up in a heap ..." "Borodino". With your verbiage about performance characteristics, which I have already given up reading, all the time you lead away from the essence. If you have already wedged yourself into the dialogue, then at least trace "what is it about in general." Yes, I agree with you that RI lagged behind the developed caps in terms of its technical development. countries, it's stupid to argue with this, but it's not about that. What was disputed was the "breakthrough" of the Bolsheviks, which they allegedly made. And if we draw parallels for the same multi-engine bombers, then having primacy at the beginning of their release, the RI lost in quantity (dozens compared to hundreds of other countries), and then in quality, the same about the Pe-8, which is practically neck and neck developed from B-17 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/b17a.html http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/pe8.html
                  but "rested" in the absence of normal engines, a sufficient amount of aluminum, qualified personnel in production and other "little things", such as high-strength steels
                  There weren’t so many Pe-8s, only 1-2 cars a month, in January there were 45 Pe-20s in the 8th division, by summer their number was increased to 30 cars
                  (ibid.) a colossal leap in comparison with IM in the Russian Empire, isn't it? While the B-17 in various modifications was released in thousands. I'm not talking about the impoverished Great Britain, which also produced heavy bombers, here is an example of one of them from the "triad" produced:
                  In total, over the years of serial production, the assembly shops of the factories in Rochester, Belfast, Swindon and Birmingham left 2375 Short Stirling bombers.
                  thousands against tens, the gap is even greater. And if you take the same T-34 tank that you love, whose TTX you again want to take the conversation aside, but undoubtedly an excellent tank (for our industry), it was technically primitive and still unreliable until the 42nd year, due to the same technical backwardness of the USSR
                  Decree KO No. 428 provides for the expansion of the turret of the T-34 without expanding the shoulder strap. This modernization does not give the full effectiveness of improving the combat qualities of the tank. The broadening of the tower in its upper part will give some improvement in the placement of the crew in the stowed position (it will be more convenient to sit). When shooting, the situation will not improve, since without changing the shoulder strap there remains a narrow space between the sleeve catcher and shoulder strap, which will hamper the work of the calculation when shooting (especially charging).
                  http://rostislavddd.livejournal.com/74756.html Уширения погода смогли достичь только в конце 43-го года, когда получили специальные карусельные станки из США по Ленд-лизу, после этого пошли в войска танки Т-34-85 с новой башней от танка Т-43, который, в свою очередь, не мог быть поставлен на конвейер из-за большой потребности танков на фронте и проблем в танковой промышленности. Я уж не говорю о коробке перемены передач.
                  A very striking example. The command tower noted in the letter, which would allow at least somehow to improve the terrible view of the vehicle (noted not only by the Germans, Finns, etc., but also as you can see by the ABTU KA specialists themselves back in 1940) appeared on the T-34 only in the fall of 1943, and where ... do you think in Tagil at factory 183? No matter how it is, in Sormovo at plant No. 112, during the epic to improve the quality of the tanks produced there, since the famous phrase of the Leader about "the Sormovo Freak on which our tankers are afraid to go into battle" I think it quite clearly hinted to the Sormovites that they were typical for themselves " effective manager of the century "conclusions.
                  The quality of the tank was such that even the "leader" had an idea about it. So what kind of leap are we talking about, even if there were such problems in the defense industry, this is not a leap, but attempts.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 09: 54
                    Quote: veteran66
                    You are your verbiage about TTX, which I have already quit reading

                    Poor thing! crying

                    I already noticed that you are missing your * intelligence * every time, from your unsubstantiated nonsense and incoherent verbiage, speech goes to real facts and exact numbers, including TTX / LTX
                    (LTX is called in aviation, for your information).

                    Happenes. I'm sorry again crying

                    You have become so accustomed to tsarist Russia, dear to your heart, that you convincingly portray a peasant guy with the formation in the 1st grade of central vocational school.
                    Bravo, bravo, would be the director of a film about imperial times - would invite to the role good

                    But why do you, pray tell, with your "level", the parish unfinished, climb into the conversations of knowledgeable people on the thematic forum, where they discuss exactly what you do not like and do not like? belay

                    Quote: veteran66
                    what kind of jerk are we talking about, even if there were such problems in the defense industry

                    For a particularly parish again I repeat.
                    1. Everyone has problems with defense in a big war. Or can you name a country where everything worked out without problems? lol

                    2. To compare the problems of the USSR in the Second World War and the problems of the Republic of Ingushetia in the WWI - this is how to compare the problems in sports of an Olympic athlete with the problems of a teenager entering a sports school.
                    Although, yes, both have problems laughing

                    3. The USSR provided itself with small arms completely.
                    This is not a jerk, yeah yeah laughing

                    RI could not even provide the army's rifles on its own: 40% of "Russian" rifles were from foreign purchases, incl. outdated rifles of Berdan and Lebel, many Arisak rifles.

                    RI provided the Russian army's need for machine guns by 12%, while its own Russian production of machine guns amounted to 1 before 1910. (by WWII it was no longer considered a weapon), from 1910 to 1917. Russia made 26 thousand "maxims", several dozen Fedorov light machine guns and copies of the Dutch Madsen.

                    I emphasize: several. dozens of copies, miserable tears, when in developed countries the production of machine guns in tens, hundreds of thousands went. In Germany, for example, during the WWII machine guns 280 thousand were made.

                    Allied assistance provided Russia with 28 thousand Maxim and Vickers machine guns, 14 thousand Lewis light machine guns, etc. more than 50% of "Russian" heavy machine guns and almost all of the light machine guns were of foreign production.
                    With ammunition, the situation was also desperate, and also kept to a large extent on foreign supplies.

                    4. The USSR provided itself with the most high-tech weapons: armored vehicles and aircraft. Soviet aircraft flew on Soviet aircraft engines.

                    RI in this regard showed sheer impotence: the overwhelming majority of "Russian" aircraft in WWI were of foreign production and foreign design.
                    Even the little that was of Russian design and Russian production flew exclusively on foreign engines. Several dozens of bad copies of foreign engines made at RBVZ and other handicraft industries were a drop in the bucket, especially since the aircraft engines had a low motor resource and wore out in a year. A large number of non-combat losses of "Muromets" are the result of a severe shortage of engines and their increased wear and tear.

                    Most of the "Russian" armored cars were of the Austin-Putilovets brand, in which only Putilov's armor was really Russian laughing
                    The experiments begun before the war with how-to-tanks RI until the end of its existence did not bring to at least one combat-ready instance.

                    Soviet tanks, no matter how they were tried to be harassed by liberals and bakers, earned respect around the world. Even the Americans include the T-34 at the top of the list of the best tanks in world history.

                    This is not a jerk for you either, I believe - but such is your "authoritative" laughing opinion says not about the poor state of the USSR, but about * what kind of * state of your brain is * clear.
                2. 0
                  21 January 2017 19: 46
                  Quote: murriou
                  Yeah, yeah, only the BMW engine gave 500 hp, M-35 1200 hp, M-38F 1500 hp under equal conditions

                  You specify which engine, the one with which it was made, has long been rusted in a landfill, and the new BMW by that time was giving 2000 hp. and more.
              2. 0
                19 January 2017 13: 05
                Quote: veteran66
                And what about Grigorovich’s boats?

                Well, there were such boats.
                Even in a noticeable amount, if we compare them with the scale of tsarist Russia, and not with developed countries. So what?

                Oh yes! According to the bakery mythology, they were the first in the world and the best in the world, like all Russian! laughing laughing laughing

                Only here the ambush is that the first of Grigorovich's boats M-1, arr. 1913, was = a copy = of the French flying boat Donnet-Leveque of 1912 laughing

                The best, according to a fairly popular opinion, and the most massive boat of Grigorovich M-5 (1915-1917) on the French, naturally, the engine "Gnome" 100hp. had a max / cruise speed of 105/87, a ceiling of 3,3 km, a payload of up to 0,3 tons (including the pilot and weapons) - i.e. not far from the French ancestor.
                Still there were good flying boats with close LTH from Willisch and a constructor with a surname from which all the bakers are writhing like devils from incense: Engels laughing

                In 1916, Grigorovich received a foreign, essno, 150hp Salmson motor, and made an M-9 boat on it, which suffered from certain engine reliability problems (which Sikorsky refused for the same reasons), besides, during operation, a wooden the structure was swollen and heavy. The speed did not rise much: up to 110/98 km / h, payload up to 400 kg, the ceiling even slightly decreased to 3,0 km.

                For comparison, by 1916, a French boat of the same company as the ancestor of the M-1 had OWN twice as powerful Renault engine 220 hp - such people in Russia did not even know how to copy.
                Accordingly, the speed is 140/125, the payload is up to 1 ton, the ceiling is the same 3 km with full (!) Load.
                In Italy, analogues used their own Isotta-Fraschini engines 150-160 hp. and, naturally, also had the best performance characteristics: "Macchi L3" - 148/125 km / h, load up to 400 kg, ceiling 5,8 km (!).

                So here, as well, the crystal-bread myths lied.
                Grigorovich's boats were the first and best in tsarist Russia - but in the rest of the world this "proud" title meant little. Alas to you, alas crying
      2. +3
        18 January 2017 15: 42
        Quote: veteran66
        when the Bolsheviks bought it all in the USA

        And here you lie.

        Tsarist Russia did not make its own fighters at all, but ... Basically, the "Russian" aviation consisted of "Farman", "Nieupora" and "Sopvichi".

        They tried to bring the S-16 "Sikorsky-small" fighter to serial production for a year and a half, only in March 1916 they handed over part (!) Of the series ordered in 1915, designed in 1914 from as many as 15 copies laughing
        During this time, they lagged behind the world level in speed by almost one and a half times, etc., respectively.
        The most massive "Russian" fighter was designed by the Italian (!) Mosca in 1916, in terms of its flight characteristics it was not much superior to the C-16 Sikorsky, and was produced in as many as 50 copies. Naturally, on French engines "Gnome".
        The Sikorsky fighter aircraft, which were more modern in terms of performance characteristics, could hardly be brought to the experimental series in a year, and it never came to serial production.

        And Soviet fighter jets, starting with I-2, were mass-produced in hundreds of copies, but were not purchased at all in the USA, already from the beginning of the First Five-Year Plan.
        And they flew Soviet-made engines. Feel the difference.
        1. 0
          18 January 2017 21: 11
          Quote: murriou
          And Soviet fighters, starting with I-2, were mass-produced in hundreds of copies.

          I-2 bis first took off on November 4, 1924, piloted by pilot Alexander Zhukov. It was built in series in 1926 - 1929. A total of 211 cars were produced.
          Fifty pieces a year! Great !!
          Quote: murriou
          And they flew Soviet-made engines. feel the difference

          I already wrote about the "Soviet" motors above.
          It's boring with you .... one slogan.
          1. 0
            19 January 2017 13: 25
            Quote: veteran66
            Fifty pieces a year! Great !!

            Much more than tsarist Russia made "Russian" aircraft.

            And this is the FIRST Soviet serial fighter.
            I-3 made 399 copies for 2 and a little years, 1928-1930.
            I-5 was made in 1932-1933. 800+ copies.

            Quote: veteran66
            I already wrote about the "Soviet" motors above.

            And they wrote, as always, illiterate nonsense, which I examined in detail with numbers.
            I sympathize with your inability to read in Russian crying
            1. 0
              19 January 2017 14: 58
              Quote: murriou
              And they wrote, as always, illiterate nonsense, which I examined in detail with numbers.

              And who are you? Minister Shakhurin or his deputy Yakovlev? No? Then thanks, do I have any reliable sources? And in general, all your attempts to convince everyone with slogans about the breakthrough of the Bolsheviks are broken up into one important fact: the USSR collapsed under the weight of economic problems, it was not competitive with its economy, what can I argue about?
              1. 0
                19 January 2017 16: 58
                Quote: veteran66
                And who are you? Minister Shakhurin or his deputy Yakovlev? No?

                And who are you? Minister, deputy minister? NO? lol

                Perhaps you are a recognized specialist? laughing Judging by the level of your constant lies and constant nonsense, you have never been a specialist in your entire life. lol

                So it’s not for you, who have even mastered even Wikipedia, to teach someone something here.

                Quote: veteran66
                Then thanks, do I have any reliable sources?

                Wikipedia again? Or is it really an Internet trash heap? Well, let's get your "reliable sources" here, make people laugh laughing

                According to my figures, what are your objections? Specifically, with facts and figures, with sources, eh?

                Just that they don’t like you, the illiterate baker, because all your mythology is to hell? Well, these are your problems, rewind. Tolerate and streamline, since they decided to get out with their tales as a laughing stock.

                All the more so as your beloved Wikipedia, and you attracted here "corner of heaven" agree on all the facts with me, and not with your nonsense. tongue
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 07
                  Quote: murriou
                  Just that they don’t like you, the illiterate baker, because all your mythology is to hell?

                  your boorish tone is an excessive confirmation that all your attempts to prove the advantages of the socialist model in the execution of the Bolsheviks, and especially their mythical jerk, have no basis, except verbiage using some technical data invented by the Bolsheviks themselves. So I don’t feel like spending more time on you. hi
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 00
                    Quote: veteran66
                    have no basis, except verbiage using some technical data invented by the Bolsheviks themselves.

                    Translated into Russian: as always, you have not mastered the exact data and real facts that smash your mythology. laughing
                    I traditionally sympathize crying lol

                    But if you have more reliable data - show it! You have been boasting about these "reliable data" for a long time, but WHY laughing They have never been presented lol laughing

                    Quote: veteran66
                    I don’t feel like spending more time on you.

                    Translated into Russian: "green grapes" wink
                    Oh, your masochism is over! You are still tired of being constantly beaten and ridiculed for your ignorance! laughing laughing laughing
                    1. 0
                      21 January 2017 19: 48
                      Quote: murriou
                      Oh, your masochism is over!

                      Yes, I’m tired of reading and exposing your nonsense, your only conclusions about the losses in the RPE and the Finnish are worth it.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
  35. +1
    18 January 2017 16: 47
    Veteran 66

    Somehow, the Bolsheviks and Communists greatly offended Veteran 66. Although, after all, he lives in a country completely created by them. Both parents and children are also visible. Maybe from the nobility.
    Although unlikely. They still drove off in the twenties. Maybe the ancestors had a factory or a shop with the king. But alas, those left a long time ago. Only the descendants of the working people remained here.
    Apparently, veteran 66 comes from ordinary people. Where does such pathological class hatred for everything Soviet from, to “commies”, Bolsheviks come from? I just want to understand the psychology of haters.
    1. +1
      18 January 2017 17: 56
      They were bitten by the editorial board of Ogonyok during the "perestroika" laughing
      1. 0
        19 January 2017 09: 15
        “Spark” is a liberal Vlasov edition. Could they really bite their fellow minds?
        1. +1
          19 January 2017 09: 26
          They bite those who are not yet infected and have not turned into zombies. Some become infected.
          1. 0
            19 January 2017 09: 35
            You are right, I didn’t think about it /
    2. +1
      18 January 2017 19: 27
      Quote: pussamussa
      Although he lives in a country completely created by them.

      The Bolsheviks and their heirs, the Communists created Russia?
      Are you out of your mind? These figures are just a moment in the history of Russia. Somewhere between the past and the future.
      Quote: pussamussa
      They still drove off in the twenties.

      What nonsense. They could not all leave. The Bolshevik women closed the borders and for illegal (without their permission, and they did not give permission), they were given the transition from 10 years to execution. So that the population does not run away from the "bright future".
      Quote: pussamussa
      Only the descendants of the working people remained here.

      Gee-gee-gee. And who is this, "working people"? What is this new and interesting philosophical category?
      Quote: pussamussa
      Where does such pathological class hatred for everything Soviet from, to “commies”, Bolsheviks come from?

      From the presence of mind and the ability to analyze historical events and facts. And also from the presence of conscience.
      Quote: pussamussa
      I just want to understand the psychology of haters.

      The psychology of anti-Soviet is easy to understand. They, by the way, are many categories.
      And the psychology of "witnesses to socialism" is not difficult to understand. But here is just a zombie. Without subsequent unzombification.
    3. +1
      18 January 2017 21: 14
      Quote: pussamussa
      Something the Bolsheviks and Communists greatly offended Veteran 66.

      Yes, not me, they destroyed the country, that’s all psychology.
      1. +1
        19 January 2017 09: 22
        Quote: veteran66
        Yes, not me, they destroyed the country, that’s all psychology.

        Greatly "destroyed" the country, accepted with a plow, and in the late forties there was a nuclear bomb, just twenty years later the country became the most advanced superpower. So you and your colleagues have really blown up the ground in the last twenty-five years.
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 10: 11
          Quote: pussamussa
          Greatly "destroyed" the country, took it with a plow, and in the late forties there was a nuclear bomb,

          Yes, you throw these slogans, is there anything to compare? After the 17th, a new education began on the territory of Russia, and the old ended and it is not known how RI developed further, therefore, give here ridiculous comparisons with Russia of the 13th year. Why not compare with the USA, Germany or France? Take, for example, a fragment of RI - Finland, not the most developed part of Russia, but by the 90th year it occupied second place in Europe after Switzerland by welfare. What place the USSR occupied in this indicator, I think, everyone felt on himself.
          1. +1
            19 January 2017 11: 13
            Quote: veteran66
            it is not known how further RI developed

            Why is it unknown? It would have "developed" in about the same way as before, i.e. would be tied deeper and deeper in its backwardness until the events happened. comparable to the revolution.

            Or do you know the reasons why suddenly everything would change? laughing Share with the world! lol
            1. +1
              19 January 2017 12: 39
              Quote: murriou
              those. would bind deeper and deeper into its backwardness until events occurred.

              so confirm your "would" with the facts, I put Finland as an example, but what are you? again unfounded conclusions?
              1. +1
                19 January 2017 13: 28
                I have already cited many examples of the deep and growing backwardness of tsarist Russia.

                If you suffer from sclerosis and instantly forget everything you read, I really, really sympathize with you crying

                If you are a masochist and you like to see another expose of your favorite myths again, I can repeat it at any time - just ask! laughing
                1. 0
                  19 January 2017 15: 00
                  Quote: murriou
                  If you are a masochist and you like to see another expose of your favorite myths again, I can repeat it at any time - just ask!

                  I repeat again: the USSR collapsed, all your myths about the jerks and attempts of the Bolsheviks collapsed with it, calm down hi
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 17
                    Your efforts over the past twenty-five years have led to a standstill.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +2
        19 January 2017 11: 09
        The Bolsheviks plundered the state treasury, including funds intended to strengthen the country's defense? No, this was done by high-ranking royal dignitaries, starting with royal relatives.

        Did the Bolsheviks lose the Russian-Japanese war to smithereens? No, this was done by the tsarist generals and admirals, who did not answer for this.

        Did the Bolsheviks allow the country to be deeply dependent on foreign loans and supplies? No, the tsarist government.
        Just the Bolsheviks saved the country from foreign dependence and overcame a deep lag behind a couple of five-year plans, then brought the country to the lead.

        What other claims to the Bolsheviks? laughing
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 12: 46
          Quote: murriou
          Did the Bolsheviks allow the country to be deeply dependent on foreign loans and supplies? No, the tsarist government.

          No? When did they come up with the oil needle? And the massive purchases of grain abroad and dependence on the grain embargo did not begin under the Bolsheviks. And who was the Jackson-Vanik amendment for? There would be no dependence of the USSR on the capitalist powers, there would be no these sanctions, and so they were introduced.
          1. +2
            19 January 2017 14: 32
            Quote: veteran66
            There would be no dependence of the USSR on the capitalist powers

            Stalin at one time said that the USSR was an absolutely self-sufficient country in all respects and did not need anyone or anything. Produced everything from a nail to a spaceship.
            1. 0
              19 January 2017 15: 02
              Quote: pussamussa
              Produced everything from a nail to a spaceship.

              have spaceships been built under Stalin? Wow!
              Quote: pussamussa
              Stalin once spoke

              Khrushchev at one time also spoke of communism in the 80th .. And?
              1. +1
                19 January 2017 15: 33
                Quote: veteran66
                Khrushchev at one time also spoke of communism in the 80th .. And?

                Address the question to your liberal colleagues - the Vlasovites. They derailed the country.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 15
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  Address the question to your liberal colleagues - the Vlasovites. They derailed the country.

                  interestingly, everything bothers the Bolsheviks, here they go, they go to communism, time! and interventionists, then again! and fascists, then - conspiracies, bad weather, liberalists .... Why, then, doesn’t anyone interfere with other countries? live in rotting capitalism and do not rot to the end? Maybe they live on another planet? Or maybe a bad dancer, whom various Faberges interfere with?
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 19
                    What has been stopping you for the past 25 years?
              2. +1
                19 January 2017 15: 34
                Quote: veteran66
                have spaceships been built under Stalin?


                Developments and developments have already been.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 12
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  Developments and developments have already been.

                  he was engaged in the theory of space flights and developed Tsiolkovsky in tsarist times, so will we glorify the tsar? The question is not what kind of government the developments were under, but what kind of support the state leader provided. So, according to B.E. Chertok, Stalin reacted very coolly to rocket science at his report.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 15
                    However, immediately after the death of Stalin, space flights began.
                    1. 0
                      21 January 2017 19: 52
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      However, immediately after the death of Stalin, space flights began

                      Oh!
  36. +1
    19 January 2017 09: 17
    Quote: JS20
    These figures are just a moment in the history of Russia

    It is amazing how in such a moment in history, as much was created as was not created in the previous 1000 years.
    1. 0
      19 January 2017 10: 14
      Quote: pussamussa
      how in such a moment in history, as much was created as was not created in the previous 1000 years.

      and other countries during this time created as much as was not created in the previous 100 years, you know the progress.))) Only at the same time they created a little more.
      1. 0
        19 January 2017 10: 40
        Quote: veteran66
        Only then did they create a little more.

        And what did they create more? This is a mystery to me.
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 12: 48
          Quote: pussamussa
          And what is it that they created more

          and therefore it is a mystery that they lived behind the Iron Curtain. Only this is where the defectors come from, and after all, they are not poor people, and from the "other" side no one aspired to us.
          1. +1
            19 January 2017 13: 36
            Listen to what you are doing here. After all, all the gates are open. Drive, enjoy geyropeyskih values, do not waste time.
            1. 0
              19 January 2017 15: 06
              Quote: pussamussa
              Listen to what you are doing here. After all, all the gates are open. Drive

              What for? Russia just threw off the commie, begins to live. It’s you go to the DPRK, there is still communism,
              And your father Lenin completely usop
              It decomposed into mold and linden honey.

              "Civil defense"
              1. +1
                19 January 2017 15: 26
                You are waiting for colleagues at the Gaidar forum.
              2. +1
                19 January 2017 15: 31
                Quote: veteran66
                begins to live



                And there long ago they began to live. Same-sex marriages have reached the highest value and ceiling - this is the top of Western civilization.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 20
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  Same-sex marriages have reached the highest value and ceiling - this is the top of Western civilization.

                  Yes, calm down with these marriages, they are there at the level of statistical error, do you think there are few fagots in Russia? Well, they do not live so openly, but they try to arrange gay parades, so they exist. You'd better compare the life of their engineer and ours (in the USSR it was not without reason that there was a saying, "like a simple engineer"), and you are all interested in fagots.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 21
                    Quote: veteran66
                    yes calm down you with these marriages

                    These marriages are legalized officially in all European countries. In your favorite Scandinavian countries, apart from cervelat, there are also popular "Swedish families"
                    1. 0
                      21 January 2017 19: 54
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      In your favorite Scandinavian countries, apart from cervelat, there are also popular "Swedish families"

                      the most interesting thing is that when asked about the so-called. "Swedish families" the Swedes themselves shrugged their shoulders in bewilderment. Do not believe, this is all communist propaganda.
                  2. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 45
                    Our former fellow-citizens of German descent leave Germany back to the Russian Federation with their children in order to protect their children from sexual enlightenment, which exists in Western countries.
                  3. 0
                    20 January 2017 12: 22
                    My father and other relatives were engineers, they lived normally and never pissed off foreign consumer goods and did not talk about the "western paradise" with aspiration, like you.
                    1. 0
                      21 January 2017 19: 55
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      and didn't talk about "western paradise" aspirated like you.

                      and when did I say that? I was talking about "socialist paradise", maybe you got it mixed up?
              3. 0
                19 January 2017 16: 58
                Quote: veteran66
                And your father Lenin completely usop

                Courage over the head of state, who died a hundred years ago - this you can
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 21
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  Courage over the head of state, who died a hundred years ago - this you can

                  yes, actually, like you. I read a lot of "flattering" words about the last king.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 22
                    He wrote nothing bad against Nicholas II.
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 12: 18
                      Write complaints to those who spoke badly, and not to me.
          2. +2
            19 January 2017 14: 27
            Quote: veteran66
            behind the iron curtain lived

            I personally lived in a normal beautiful country. The Iron Curtain was necessary, and even now it would not hurt to isolate itself from the entire garbage dump and the dirty stream of gay-European values ​​that flow here.
            1. 0
              19 January 2017 15: 07
              Quote: pussamussa
              The Iron Curtain was necessary, and now it wouldn’t hurt,

              in the DPRK !!
              1. +2
                19 January 2017 15: 28
                There are no oil and gas in the DPRK, the country does not have raw materials. If they had, they lived better than us at times.
                1. +3
                  19 January 2017 15: 35
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  There are no oil and gas in the DPRK, the country has no raw materials

                  Mining in the DPRK is one of the important sectors of the North Korean economy. The DPRK is rich in resources such as magnesite, zinc, tungsten and iron ...

                  - tungsten, I note - the thing is quite "tasty"
                  1. 0
                    19 January 2017 16: 56
                    So they do not have enough tungsten to earn billions on it.
                2. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 24
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  There are no oil and gas in the DPRK,

                  in Japan the same crap, can you imagine, but they live better than us at times)))) yes in the same South Korea, which was an agrarian country after the Second World War, unlike sowing. Korea. You have the mentality of a resident of the country of "raw materials appendage", sorry ....
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 09: 34
                    Japan, Korea and the whole west are the countries of the so-called “golden billion”. They milked, milked and will milk the rest of the world. Due to this, they have a higher standard of living.
                    The RF, DPRK and most countries of the world are not included in this “club of the elect”. On the brazen robbery of the whole world is built the well-being of all this western riffraff.
                    You have a complete liberalist mindset.
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2017 17: 38
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      Japan, Korea and the whole west are countries of the so-called “golden billion”

                      How's that? They are from birth this "golden billion" thrown in the face, or what? Or did the tough guys in the TV box tell you?
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      They milked, milked and will milk the rest of the world.

                      But the whole world, he can’t give milk? Or does not want?
                      Just to punish the "milkers"?
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      Due to this, they have a higher standard of living.

                      Actually, these "stories of losers" are extremely interesting to me because of their funny stupidity. Those. everything is simple, some "milk" and due to this they live well. Others, "cheap", live poorly. It's simple. It remains to answer the question, why do the "doe" allow themselves to be "milked"? However, there is no answer to this question and will not be. Nevertheless, it is possible to continue nothing further, arguing about "milking" and about the villainous milkers.
                      A loser and a bum, he will always find an excuse. He will always "tell and show convincingly" that he is being robbed. He will show all this while lying on a seated sofa in torn socks.
      2. +2
        19 January 2017 11: 11
        Is it nothing that during the period of the NRW-WWI Russia in technological development lagged far behind even Japan and Italy, which the USSR then overtook by the beginning of WWII? laughing
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 12: 52
          Quote: murriou
          even from Japan and Italy, which the USSR then greatly surpassed by the beginning of WWII?

          so surpassed that from Italy on the eve of the war bought ships? Or can we compare the planes and ships of Japan with the ships of the USSR, which he got from the rotten and backward tsarist regime, because they could not build their own? And by the end of socialism in radio electronics, it was forever behind Japan; I do not mention modestly about shipbuilding and automotive industry in both countries.
          1. +1
            19 January 2017 13: 33
            Quote: veteran66
            so surpassed that from Italy on the eve of the war bought ships?

            So overtook that Italy only began to build real tanks instead of wedges by 1939, and then at the level of our mid-30s, and tried to get to the level of T-34 arr. 1939 by the end of the war, but it didn’t.

            So surpassed that Japan after 1939 vowed to fight with the USSR and turned its expansion south against the United States and Britain.

            As for the fleet, it was not a priority in the USSR. and that turned out to be a deeply correct decision.
            But if you recall tsarist Russia, which was trying to equal the fleet with the developed powers and spent enormous amounts of money on it, and achieved only extremely sad results ... crying
            1. 0
              19 January 2017 15: 24
              Quote: murriou
              So surpassed that Japan after 1939 vowed to fight with the USSR and turned its expansion

              she vowed because she was bogged down in China, and the United States established an oil embargo. God forbid, if she turned north, then our Pacific Fleet would not have been able to do anything.
              Quote: murriou
              As for the fleet, it was not a priority in the USSR. and that turned out to be a deeply correct decision.

              not priority but impossible.
              1. +2
                19 January 2017 21: 05
                Quote: veteran66
                God forbid, if she turned north, then our Pacific Fleet would not have been able to do anything.

                You continue to amuse me with the enchanting scale of your ignorance laughing

                Japan FIRST turned to the north. Against the USSR.

                What do you think, if a similar word is applicable to you: WHY she stopped this movement in 1939. and changed the direction of expansion?

                Prompt. Get into Wikipedia, which is the limit for you * intellectual power *find an article about Khalkhin Gol there.
                Hint: this has nothing to do with China or the Navy lol laughing wink

                Another great discovery for you will be that in the 20th century tsarist Russia LOSED all significant battles with Japan, both on land and at sea.

                And the USSR had armed conflicts with Japan in the 20s, in 1938 and 1939, and the war in 1945 — and in all these cases it won.

                Feel the difference laughing
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 29
                  Quote: murriou
                  Prompt. Get on Wikipedia,

                  You will get out of Wikipedia and read more serious sources, for example, the memoirs of Richard Sorge, for interest, read about the history of the Japanese-Chinese war since 1934, and then, if you master, about Japanese-American relations, on the eve of Pearl Harbor. And then we'll talk about the difference. But first, read carefully about Khasan and Khalkhin-Gol, especially the orders following the results, and not at the beginning, but the last points where "bumps and donuts" are distributed. This is the only one, among the communist propaganda, where you can learn at least some of the truth about these conflicts.
          2. +2
            19 January 2017 13: 38
            Quote: veteran66
            And to the decline of socialism


            By sunset, your liberal colleagues, the Vlasovites, have led.
            1. 0
              19 January 2017 15: 21
              Quote: pussamussa
              By sunset, your liberal colleagues, the Vlasovites, have led.

              surnames can be? I think that the Russian proverb is more appropriate here "There is nothing to blame on the mirror, since the face is crooked"
              1. +1
                19 January 2017 16: 28
                I don’t want to give a list, you all know these names.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 09: 30
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  you and everyone know these names.

                  I, for example, do not know, but who is "all"? I'll ask him.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 10: 44
                    Go to the Gaidar forum, they will shine on you.
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 12: 15
                      I wanted to say enlighten.
  37. +1
    19 January 2017 10: 38
    Quote: veteran66
    Take, for example, a fragment of RI - Finland, not the most developed part of Russia, but by the 90th year it occupied the second place in Europe after Switzerland by welfare. What place the USSR occupied in this indicator, I think, everyone felt on himself.

    Finland is a small European country. What outstanding they created. His little bourgeois primitive little world with dozens of varieties of sausages. They did not create anything more.
    1. +1
      19 January 2017 11: 44
      But for some reason, philistine well-being does not bring happiness. Therefore, buses with Finns regularly came on weekends to the Leningrad Region. There, these geyropeytsy gobbled up alcohol and buses in the insensitive form took them back. So they poured their "happy philistine souls", fattened on the Finnish cervelat.
      1. 0
        19 January 2017 13: 28
        Quote: pussamussa
        There, these geyropeytsy gobbled up alcohol and buses in the insensitive form took them back.

        Well, our proletariat got drunk "without leaving the machine", only from despair and gray life, is that better?
        1. +1
          19 January 2017 13: 39
          Quote: veteran66
          well, our proletariat got drunk "without leaving the machine


          It looks like a representative of such a "proletariat". And I have seen a completely different proletariat.
          1. 0
            19 January 2017 15: 28
            Quote: pussamussa
            And I have seen a completely different proletariat.

            you see it happenedwhere in the museum?
            1. +1
              19 January 2017 16: 26
              Quote: veteran66
              where in the museum?

              Including on the canvases of Soviet artists.
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 10: 17
                Quote: pussamussa
                Including on the canvases of Soviet artists.

                but I worked at the factory ... I saw everyone, honestly, not all were drunks, or rather, they were not in the sense that they were lying on the streets, but many drank well, including at the factory. But in Leningrad, not all of Finland got drunk, right?
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 10: 42
                  Now, men and women drink from happiness, and then they get behind the wheel of a car, and even at the controls of an airplane
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 12: 13
                    Quote: pussamussa
                    in Leningrad, not all of Finland got drunk, right?

                    Most of them drink there, so most of them get drunk.
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 14: 41
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      Most of them drink there, so most of them get drunk.

                      Well, the country of alcoholics is direct, as of 1989, the population of Finland is almost 5 million, even if half drinks, are there not a lot of 2 million alcoholics in a 4,5 million city? Maybe most of the visitors, right? Why distort the facts?
                      1. 0
                        20 January 2017 15: 16
                        Most of the Finnish men are not alcoholics, but just drinkers and many of them came to get us drunk.
                  2. 0
                    20 January 2017 14: 42
                    Quote: pussamussa
                    Now, men and women drink from happiness, and then they get behind the wheel of a car, and even at the controls of an airplane

                    and when the Soviet Union did not sit down? True, then, too, lived happily, not all cars had))))
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 15: 14
                      Quote: veteran66
                      when the USSR did not sit down?


                      There have been cases, but not in such numbers.
                      1. 0
                        20 January 2017 16: 53
                        Quote: pussamussa
                        but not in such quantity.

                        so I say, there were fewer cars)))
        2. +1
          19 January 2017 13: 50
          Quote: veteran66
          only from hopelessness and gray life, is this better?

          Nevzorov lies and slanders our past for money. And how are you ?
          1. 0
            19 January 2017 15: 29
            Quote: pussamussa
            Nevzorov lies and slanders our past
            that is, according to your logic, I lie and slander the USSR, and you to the Russian Empire? And also for the money? Or for food?
            1. +1
              19 January 2017 16: 25
              Quote: veteran66
              and you to the Russian empire?


              Until I touched RI, and it makes no sense, the story is too distant. I asked you about today. Where did hundreds of branches and directions of science, technology, industry go?
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 09: 31
                Quote: pussamussa
                Where did hundreds of branches and directions of science, technology, industry go?

                died due to lack of demand, due to their lack of competitiveness. And what do you think?
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 10: 24
                  So thousands of enterprises, research institutes, collective farms did not fit into the Chubais market. The civil aviation industry in our country was leading in the world, where is it? And other industries just disappeared. Thousands of villages, settlements, schools, hospitals, libraries, kindergartens and millions of our fellow citizens also did not fit into the market. But now we have leading places in the world in drug addiction, alcoholism, crime, suicide, mortality.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 14: 34
                    Quote: pussamussa
                    Thousands of villages, settlements, schools, hospitals, libraries, kindergartens and millions of our fellow citizens also did not fit into the market.

                    What is it like? Now, for example, they are building kindergartens (we have two more in addition to the three available in our neighborhood), schools are opening, libraries are no longer listed, because there are a lot of books on the Internet, I myself bought an e-book, although everything is at home with my parents shelves with books. Not so bad.
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 15: 13
                      Quote: veteran66
                      for example, build d / gardens


                      Twenty-five years after the collapse, something tiny can be built somewhere. But more liquidate and close.
                      1. 0
                        20 January 2017 16: 56
                        Quote: pussamussa
                        Twenty-five years after the collapse, something tiny can be built somewhere.

                        so who ruined it? Repainted commies, it would be necessary as in the countries of the former socialist camp, he wore a party card - for ten years without the right to occupy leadership positions. Then, one could speak of liberal democrats. In our microdistrict, three kindergartens have stood for centuries and opened two more, not counting private and extensions.
          2. 0
            20 January 2017 10: 26
            Quote: pussamussa
            Nevzorov lies and slanders our past

            I don’t know what Nevzorov is talking about, I didn’t read it, but I brought data from Soviet sources, where is the slander here? Defamation is the dissemination of knowingly false information.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 10: 49
              [
              Quote: veteran66
              what is Nevzorov talking about there

              "To live not by a lie," as your idol Solzhenitsyn used to say, although he himself lied all his life.
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 14: 31
                Quote: pussamussa
                "To live not by a lie," as your idol Solzhenitsyn used to say, although he himself lied all his life.

                ah-ah, this is where this expression "not good" comes from, that's what I don't like commies yet, so it's putting up all sorts of labels. Where did you get the idea that my idol is Solzhenitsyn, and not, for example, Ritchie Blackmore?
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 15: 09
                  Quote: veteran66
                  Where did you get that my idol Solzhenitsyn


                  Solzhenitsyn’s ideology is one to one like yours.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 16: 57
                    Quote: pussamussa
                    Solzhenitsyn’s ideology is one to one as you

                    and what is his ideology?
              2. +1
                20 January 2017 17: 25
                Quote: pussamussa
                as your idol Solzhenitsyn said, although he lied all his life.

                Solzhenitsyn is a Nobel laureate. Who are you? Pisyun on the freelance forum. It's not for you to judge him.
      2. 0
        20 January 2017 14: 44
        Quote: pussamussa
        But for some reason, philistine well-being does not bring happiness.

        perhaps only for some reason more of the socialist well-being countries fled from the socialist paradise than vice versa.
        1. 0
          20 January 2017 15: 07
          The scum that exists in all countries fled. Now our compatriots are fleeing from the west with children to the Russian Federation back to protect children from sex enlightenment in Western schools.
          1. 0
            20 January 2017 17: 04
            Quote: pussamussa
            The scum that exists in all countries fled.

            yeah, it’s them: Alekhine, Chaliapin, Shostakovich, Tarkovsky, Korchnoi, Belousov with Protopopova, Nureyev, daughter of the best friend of athletes Alliluyev, Rostropovich .... continue to continue? But Chikatilo, Markin, Tsyuman, Usov remained ... - these are serial rapists, Maduev, Ivanov, Ktsukushkin, Kerimov ... - these are serial killers
          2. +1
            20 January 2017 17: 23
            Quote: pussamussa
            The scum that exists in all countries fled.

            Waste from "socialism"? Are you out of your mind?
            And then what kind of slavery is this? Why were people forcibly kept in "paradise"?
            Quote: pussamussa
            Now our compatriots are fleeing from the west with children to the Russian Federation back to protect children from sex enlightenment in Western schools.

            Do you personally know many of these "runners"? Or is it "the right guys" on TV told everything in detail?
    2. 0
      19 January 2017 12: 59
      Quote: pussamussa
      Finland is a small European country. What outstanding they created.

      on the scale of your country, and what else would you like them to bait off Baikonur for themselves? And then, about
      Quote: pussamussa
      A small bourgeois primitive little world with dozens of varieties of sausages.
      you turned it down, we were a raw material appendage for them (we drove round timber and oil). Remember, we had TVs with the letter "and" in the index, who got them, which was a rarity, then they were proud that they had a Finnish "pipe". They bought a lot of things from them, from good paper to large-capacity vessels. And what did they sell ?? Mainly raw materials.
      In 1952—1955 Finland has undertaken to additionally supply tankers, sea tugs, motor ships, cranes, excavators, industrial equipment, standard houses, timber and other products of the paper and paper industry. The structure of Soviet exports to Finland includes grain, sugar, cotton, oil products, industrial equipment, cars and other goods, as well as some materials needed to fulfill Soviet orders for ships and equipment.
      The difference between Finnish and Soviet supplies in 1956-1960, amounting to 160 million rubles. annually, it will be covered by 120 million rubles. by concluding agreements with third countries and 40 million rubles. Finnish USSR transfers in freely convertible currency.

      http://scibook.net/vneshneekonomicheskaya-deyatel
      nost / torgovlya-sssr-kapitalisticheskimi-9166.html

      We bought from them more than they do from us, like this ...
      1. +1
        19 January 2017 13: 41
        Quote: veteran66
        We bought from them more than they do from us, like this ...


        For some reason, only Finnish cervelat remained in my memory, to be honest, disgusting.
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 15: 37
          Quote: pussamussa
          Finnish cervelat, to be honest, disgusting.

          why were they so killing for him? Moreover, he was unavailable to mere mortals, but the communist elite in special orders fought for him.
          1. +1
            19 January 2017 16: 35
            Quote: veteran66
            why did they kill him so much?

            You were killed, you know better.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 09: 34
              Quote: pussamussa
              You were killed, you know better.

              no, I only heard about him in the movies. It turns out that the famous sausage was)))
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 10: 26
                Perhaps you were starving if this Finnish sausage crashed into your memory?
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 14: 28
                  it crashed into your memory, actually
                  pussamussa Yesterday, 13:41 ↑
                  For some reason, only the Finnish cervelat remained in my memory,
                  but to be honest, although I didn’t starve, I stood in lines for sausage.
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 15: 04
                    And now the whole of Russia and neighboring countries are located in large cities, because they do not have the opportunity to earn a salami.
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 17: 06
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      they don’t have the opportunity to earn a salami.

                      it's you in vain, I have many friends in the region who live and are not going to move to the regional center, and they are fed well there.
      2. +2
        19 January 2017 13: 44
        Quote: veteran66
        TVs were with the letter "and"

        I do not remember such TVs, we always had only domestic and good quality.
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 15: 40
          Quote: pussamussa
          we always had only domestic

          and I'm talking about domestic ones, but with a significant amendment, for example, "Rubin-732" and "Rubin-732I" (And with an imported pipe, usually Finnish). Do not tell me about the quality, my dad once repaired TV sets for all the relatives. Special
          Quote: pussamussa
          good quality

          there were "Seagulls" and "Records", "Rubies" were better, but also ...
        2. 0
          20 January 2017 10: 16
          Quote: pussamussa
          we always had only domestic and good quality.
          if you would have at least one imported or at least one imported pipe among domestic ones, then you would speak differently about the quality of our televisions.
          1. 0
            20 January 2017 10: 53
            In contrast, you never trudged on from the west and their consumer goods. Completely satisfied with everything domestic. For some reason, foreigners have always actively bought up our household goods, bedding, and more.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 14: 14
              Quote: pussamussa
              Unlike you

              who is this from us? You look at Soviet films of the 70s, everything revolves around imported clothes. And the fact that they liked them, nothing sophisticated, beauty and quality, which was not enough for domestic products. in truth, there were quality things, but there were so few that they weren’t for everyone.
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 14: 32
                Quote: veteran66
                movies of the 70s look, everything revolves around import

                Yes, there were such filmmakers and other “creative intelligentsia” who literally pissed in the shirts and dragged themselves from some kind of imported rag with a foreign blotch (label).
                At the same time, they scumbled all of ours. This cheap pro-Western audience.
            2. 0
              20 January 2017 14: 26
              Quote: pussamussa
              For some reason, foreigners have always actively bought up our household goods, bedding, and more.

              especially the Vietnamese and Koreans, well, the brothers in the camp also did not disdain, but the capitalists somehow avoided, everything turned out the opposite
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 15: 02
                Quote: veteran66
                the capitalists somehow avoided, everything turned out the opposite

                I don’t know where you live. I live in a big city. So, your Western partners personally bought electric appliances from the Soviet department stores and Soviet cotton and linen items. It was not one-time, but always.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 17: 07
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  your western partners

                  I do not have Western partners, maybe yours? And if not yours, then how do you know who they are?
      3. +2
        19 January 2017 13: 47
        Quote: veteran66
        We bought from them more than they do from us, like this ...


        Our country has had trade with dozens of countries. And more than with withered Finland.
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 15: 43
          Quote: pussamussa
          Our country has had trade with dozens of countries.

          Of course, the balance there is also not in our favor, but even
          Quote: pussamussa
          choked Finland
          we purchased high-tech equipment, and sold mainly raw materials and semi-finished products, there were also machine tools, but this is in very small quantities. Do not dishonor the USSR before
          Quote: pussamussa
          choked Finland
          1. +1
            19 January 2017 16: 37
            Quote: veteran66
            Do not dishonor the USSR


            So shame on you. The laurels of the non-conspirators and Solzhenitsyn are haunted.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 09: 36
              Quote: pussamussa
              So shame on you.

              What, excuse me? There is something to be proud of (without sarcasm), it is only a pity that everything was so stupidly crap, but they could have lived better.
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 10: 55
                Over the past twenty-five, why not start a better life?
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 14: 12
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  Over the past twenty-five, why not start a better life?

                  Are you living poorly?
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 14: 26
                    I'm not really bad. Only the entire Russian Federation and the population of all former republics live and work in Moscow and other major cities of the country. We agree to any work and any living conditions.
                    In the regions and near abroad there is no work or salary. And pensions are scanty, you can only keep a cat on them.
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2017 22: 39
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      In the regions and near abroad there is no work or salary.

                      Are you talking to yourself? You never answered, do you personally live poorly? I live
                      Quote: pussamussa
                      In the regions
                      and my pension is rather big and the salary is good ..
        2. +1
          20 January 2017 17: 16
          Quote: pussamussa
          Our country has had trade with dozens of countries. And more than with withered Finland.

          Oh yeah. I had. True, the game was played with one goal. And the huge billions of dollars in debt these countries were unable to pay even theoretically. Therefore, they were written off. And then again there was "trade turnover".
      4. +2
        19 January 2017 14: 59
        Quote: veteran66
        we were a raw materials appendage for them


        You'd better tell us where hundreds of branches and trends in science, technology and industry have disappeared. How the cow licked her tongue. The country has really become a raw material source. Your brothers in mind "did a great job".
        1. 0
          20 January 2017 09: 37
          Quote: pussamussa
          You tell better where hundreds of industries disappeared.

          I already read somewhere what Oh yes:
          veteran66 5 Today, 09:31
          Quote: pussamussa
          Where did hundreds of branches and directions of science, technology, industry go?
          died due to lack of demand, due to their lack of competitiveness. And what do you think?
          1. 0
            20 January 2017 10: 26
            Quote: veteran66
            died due to lack of demand, due to their lack of competitiveness. And what do you think?


            So thousands of enterprises, research institutes, collective farms did not fit into the Chubais market. The civil aviation industry in our country was leading in the world, where is it? And other industries just disappeared. Thousands of villages, settlements, schools, hospitals, libraries, kindergartens and millions of our fellow citizens also did not fit into the market. But now we have leading places in the world in drug addiction, alcoholism, crime, suicide, mortality.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 14: 05
              Quote: pussamussa
              The civil aviation industry in our country was leading in the world, where is it?

              who was she leading, excuse me? Here I feed one slogan the third day, so you still come from. To whom from kapstran in large quantities were sold our Tu or Ily. As soon as the market opened, they all became unclaimed in economic and technical terms.
              1. 0
                20 January 2017 14: 38
                Sold to dozens of countries, so far our presidents and the government fly only on Ilah and Tu.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 17: 01
                  Quote: pussamussa
                  Sold to dozens of countries

                  "Sold" is when money is paid for a product. And when in return they promise "love to the grave" and "socialist choice" this is not a sale. This is a shipment.
                  Learn to apply the terms correctly.
            2. 0
              20 January 2017 17: 09
              Quote: pussamussa
              did not fit into the Chubais market

              Is Chubais here?
              Quote: pussamussa
              The civil aviation industry in our country was leading in the world, where is it?

              Where it should be, your imaginary "leading industry".
              It's time to understand already, with rare exceptions, UG was produced in the USSR. Which could also be sold only in the USSR. As soon as it became possible to buy not only Soviet things, the "USSR industry" basically died. For uselessness. This is the kind of "industry" in the USSR that was "built" by the Bolsheviks and the Communists.
              Quote: pussamussa
              And other industries have simply disappeared.

              Of course. I already wrote above, for uselessness.
              Quote: pussamussa
              But now we have the leading places in the world in drug addiction, alcoholism, crime, suicide, mortality.

              I do not understand why you are unhappy? Exactly those people who were brought up by "socialism" live. Not Martians, not aliens. If you have complaints about "socialism", then address them to him.
              Strange person, he is satisfied with "socialism", but not with the results of his "labor". Maybe it's time to decide somehow?
        2. 0
          20 January 2017 14: 07
          Quote: pussamussa
          Your brothers mind

          if I were his brother by reason, I would not be sitting here, there was no time. But your brothers in mind brought the country to complete devastation in the 91st, so the people refused to follow the commies.
          1. 0
            20 January 2017 14: 45
            There was no devastation, I remember that time very well. There were no objective and other reasons for the collapse of the country. The liberal-traitors who penetrated the higher echelons of power have collapsed.
            In psychology and ideology, they are your colleagues and brothers in mind. Most of them are dead, but let's say the humpback is still crawling on the ground.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 16: 58
              Quote: pussamussa
              There was no devastation, I remember that time very well.

              And I remember. In the end, everything is according to coupons, everyone is in wild queues. But "there was no devastation," of course.
              Quote: pussamussa
              There were no objective and other reasons for the collapse of the country. The liberal-traitors who penetrated the higher echelons of power have collapsed.

              You did not serve in the army under the USSR? Have you seen a real "friendship of peoples"?
              In vain.
              By the way, even under the USSR, the "zapadentsy" never made friends with the "miners", although they were from the same republic.
              1. +1
                20 January 2017 17: 01
                Quote: JS20
                In the end, everything is on coupons, all in wild lines.

                During "perestroika", when traitors purposefully brought down Soviet socialism. Yes, it was. But this is a completely different time and completely different conditions.
            2. 0
              20 January 2017 17: 08
              Quote: pussamussa
              No there was no devastation I remember that time very well. There were no objective and other reasons for the collapse of the country. Collapsed liberal - traitors who penetrated the higher echelons of power.

              so there was no devastation or still collapsed, you already decide
              Quote: pussamussa
              liberal - traitors who penetrated the highest echelons of power

              who's that? Do you know them?
        3. 0
          20 January 2017 17: 12
          Quote: pussamussa
          Tell us better where hundreds of industries and directions in science, technology, industry have disappeared. Like a cow tongue licked. The country really has become a commodity.

          She was raw material. And all these "hundreds of branches and directions in science, technology, industry" were just decoration. That there was no unemployment was a trifle.
  38. +1
    19 January 2017 11: 02
    Quote: veteran66
    let's draw a parallel and compare the Pe-8, according to its performance characteristics and seriality with comparable B-17 and B-24, we are talking about the Bolshevik jerk, so where is it a jerk?

    The jerk is that you are forced to compare the Soviet aircraft with the best examples of the most industrialized power, which in this area has far surpassed the rest of the world. laughing

    Tsarist "achievements" were inferior even to Italy, Japan, Belgium, Holland and other small things, and there was nothing to compare with the developed powers.

    And if we compare the Pe-8 with the English, German, French, Japanese and other analogues, we see a significant superiority of the USSR. By the way, in terms of regular combat load and combat radius, he and B-17 overtook B-24.
    :
    Pe-8 Altitude (practical ceiling) 9,3 km with a load of 5 t, max / cruise speed 443/400 km / h, range of 3,6 thousand km
    B-17 10,9km with a load of 2.3t, max / cruise speed 516 / 400km / h, radius of action 3,22 thousand km
    B-24 9,3km with a load of 1.8t, max / cruise speed 471 / 367km / h, radius of action 1,72 thousand km
    Handley Page Halifax 7,3km with a load of 5,9t, max / cruise speed 454 / 346km / h, range 1,66 thousand km
    Vickers Wellington 5,5km with a load of 2,0t, speed max / cruise 378 /? Km / h, range 2,9 thousand km
    Short Stirling 5,0km with a load of 5,9t, max / cruise speed 418 / 346km / h, radius of action 1,2 thousand km
    Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor 5,0 km with a load of 2,0 t, speed max / cruise 360/332 km / h, radius of action 3,5 thousand km
    Piaggio P-50 8,2km with a load of 3,5t, max / cruise speed 450 / 3682km / h, range 1,75 thousand km.
    The Japanese, the Ki-67 and G4M appeared much later and were much inferior in bomb load, their real strategic bombers were designed, but did not reach serial production.

    As you can see, the Pe-8 among the analogues in class and generation looks very decent.
    More questions? laughing
    1. +3
      19 January 2017 11: 37
      Quote: murriou
      Pe-8 Altitude (practical ceiling) 9,3 km with a load of 5 t, max / cruise speed 443/400 km / h, range of 3,6 thousand km

      Forced not agree ....
      The main distant bomber in World War II in the Red Army was DB-3 / DB-3F (Il-4).
      The TB-7 practical ceiling with M-34FRN and ACN-2 engines was 10 m, with AM-800A engines - 35 m.
      A serial production aircraft of 1941 with AM-35A engines had an empty aircraft mass of 19 kg, a flight aircraft - 986 kg in the normal version and 27 kg in the reload plane; normal bomb load - 000 kg, with an overload - 35 kg.
      Almost all serial TB-7s were without ACNs, and without turbochargers. Moreover, the already installed ACSs with the start of the war were removed: the “five-engine” TB-7s did not find application in military operations. In the summer of 1941, all of them were sent to Kazan, where the AM-34FRNV engines and M-100 superchargers were removed and replaced by AM-35A engines. The altitude of the latter already provided the bomber with acceptable characteristics at altitudes of up to 8 km. TB-7 4M-34FRN + M-100 did not cause much enthusiasm. Even without a working and fuel-eating ACS aircraft showed a range of 3000 km with 2000 kg of bombs.
      Final.
      The turbo-compressors on TB-7 (Pe-8) were not brought to mind, the fifth engine was a bad decision, and without air supply to the engines at the height of TB-7 was more than an ordinary aircraft that did not have advantages over the fleet of twin-engine DB-3 and DB -3F. Release TB-7 just did not make sense. The reasons for this are primarily economic. The cost of one TB-7 plant number 124 in Kazan amounted to 4 million rubles. While the cost of serial DB-3 plant number 18 was 430 thousand rubles, and the factory number 39 - 565 thousand rubles.
      In terms of their technical characteristics, the DB-3 and DB-3F exceeded the TB-7 in range, and the smaller bomb load could be compensated by sending two DBs to the target instead of one four-engine heavy bomber
      1. +2
        19 January 2017 11: 48
        Pe-8 for comparison was not chosen by me, but by our opponent, "well-read" at the level of superficial acquaintance with Wikipedia laughing

        Nevertheless: even in the state in which it was, the Pe-8 was relatively good.
        The aircraft I listed, for the most part, were significantly inferior to it in altitude, the speed was also at a good level, surpassing many analogues of the same generation.

        And the rest, yes, that's right.
        1. 0
          19 January 2017 13: 26
          Quote: murriou
          And the rest, yes, that's right.

          it all right completely crosses out your
          Quote: murriou
          Nevertheless: even in the state in which it was, the Pe-8 was relatively good.
          In addition, as always distorting the facts, you cited all these paper data for the test Pe-8 and for the production B-17 and B-24, an additional confirmation of this post stalkerwalker given above.
          1. +2
            19 January 2017 14: 15
            Once again, you have not mastered the technical information written in simple literary Russian, and you tried lol to understand from it is not at all what is written in it. laughing
            I sympathize with your masochism, as always. crying

            By the way, have you, at least from the third, fifth, tenth attempt, mastered before you secret information about Kaproni's planes?
            And then you have this simple task for several days now, it still doesn’t work out, I’m starting to seriously worry about you laughing
            1. 0
              19 January 2017 15: 56
              Quote: murriou
              By the way, have you, at least from the third, fifth, tenth attempt, mastered before you secret information about Kaproni's planes?

              it was not a secret for me, just what was it brought to? Russia was the first to build multi-engine bombers and this is an indisputable fact.
              1. +1
                19 January 2017 16: 39
                Quote: veteran66
                she was not secret to me

                Yah! If I had to poke your dozen times or more into it * face *so that you finally notice this information and understand that you won’t fail to recognize it! laughing laughing laughing

                Quote: veteran66
                Russia was the first to build multi-engine bombers and this is an indisputable fact.

                NO. Controversial, and even very controversial.

                1. Russia, or rather, a talented single inventor Sikorsky, was the first in the world to build an EXPERIENCED experimental multi-engine aircraft.
                It is a fact. But this is not what you write here laughing

                2. This aircraft was a bomber at that time purely theoretically. laughing
                He was able to complete his first combat flight as a bomber only after overcoming a bunch of technical and organizational problems, already in 1915.

                3. Start a "serial" release, ie. start doing SECOND laughing laughing laughing a copy of the aircraft of the IM series, Sikorsky succeeded in April 1914.
                Up to 5 copies of the "serial" release of IM reached only in September 1914 crying

                Kaproni began the really SERIAL release of his Sa.31 already in March 1914, and quickly reached TENS performance a month, the first generation of heavy Kaproni bombers finished production in 1915 in the amount of 269 aircraft.
                Those. multi-engine bomber and for the first time in the world were made in Italy, and not at all in Russia lol

                4. I hope that from repeated attempts you finally managed to master the numbers of LTX Ca.31 Kaproni and recognize their superiority over IM? laughing
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 10: 10
                  Quote: murriou
                  Those. multi-engine bomber and for the first time in the world were made in Italy, and not at all in Russia

                  But why did Kaproni recognize leadership as Sikorsky, maybe he forgot to consult with you?
                  1. +1
                    20 January 2017 11: 15
                    In the creation of the FIRST multi-engine aircraft and experiments on this subject, Sikorsky was the first. This is what I wrote here. Are you still having problems reading in Russian and reading comprehension? crying

                    But in serial production, Sikorsky's handicraft picking, by plane per month, could not be compared with the normal serial production of aircraft in developed countries, including in Italy at Caproni.
                    I have already given you the numbers many times, only because your brains do not digest figures and facts well laughing
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 14: 02
                      Quote: murriou
                      Are you still having problems reading in Russian and reading comprehension?

                      you have problems, you’re translating everything in the series, but I’m talking about championship.
                      1. +1
                        20 January 2017 14: 27
                        If you call you stupid, then take offense, and run to write complaints! laughing

                        And how else can you say that single prototypes do not win the war, but mass serial production of weapons wins?

                        What are the possibilities of the country's industry also shown by serial production, rather than artisanal home-made student in the barn?

                        Yes, so that this unpretentious, but for you personally strictly classified, truth also reaches you?

                        I don’t even know ... request
                      2. +1
                        20 January 2017 14: 29
                        And oh yes!
                        Well, how did you, in a few days and with a dozen attempts, finally manage to see the flight characteristics of the Sa.31 Caproni and compare them with the "Muromtsy" of the same 1914?
                        And as a result? lol

                        And then I really began to worry about your health, seeing such your "intelligence" and "talent" crying
    2. 0
      19 January 2017 13: 09
      Quote: murriou
      Tsarist "achievements" were inferior even to Italy, Japan, Belgium, Holland and other small things, and there was nothing to compare with the developed powers.

      you have a lot of plans, what does the size of the country have to do with it?
      Quote: murriou
      As you can see, the Pe-8 among the analogues in class and generation looks very decent.

      By the 14th year, Ilya Muromets also looked decent, but the serial production is not enough, right? And what is the seriality of the Pe-8?
      1. +2
        19 January 2017 13: 55
        Quote: veteran66
        What does the size of the country have to do with it?

        Well, before the REV in Russia they said what Japan is small, but how Japanese themselves are small ...
        "The Japs have thin legs, the Japs have small lice", and so on in the same spirit.
        And then, as they received shameful defeats from this "trifle" one after another, they stopped talking like that laughing

        Quote: veteran66
        By the 14th year, Ilya Muromets also looked decent, but the serial production is not enough, right?

        Not only serial production. They could not be put into operation, although the war was already going on, and bombers were desperately needed, and there was still a complete hassle with the "Muromets".
        They were completed and altered, combat units were formed and reorganized, worn-out pre-war German "Arguses" were dragged from one aircraft to another, with the installation of weapons and equipment they suffered and struggled ...
        In general, the first combat mission of the "Muromets" took place only in February 1915.
        Pts worthy, yes crying laughing

        And the comparison of his LTX with Sa.31 Kaproni for you still remains deeply classified? I'm sorry, as always crying

        Quote: veteran66
        And what is the seriality of the Pe-8?

        They asked - we answer.
        The Pe-8 / TB-7 / ANT-42 has 93 copies. One and a half times more than "Muromets".
        During the Second World War, more priority aircraft were also produced:
        DB-3 / IL-4, we have the most massive long-range bomber - almost 7 thousand
        IL-2 36+ thousand, this the most massive combat aircraft in history.
        Yak-1 a little less than 9 thousand. This is one of the most massive fighters in the world.

        The mass production of aircraft in the USSR was no worse than the global level, while at its own production of engines and other important components.

        In tsarist Russia, there was virtually no production of their aircraft engines at all.
        the "production" of aircraft mainly consisted of copying foreign designs,
        the mass character of even such "production" was 4,7 thousand copies for PMV. (counting flightless, unfinished, experimental) - an order of magnitude less than in developed countries over the same period.

        Only Japan, which did not need aviation at all, and all sorts of other things like Turkey-Serbia-Romania and Bulgaria did less then. laughing
        1. 0
          20 January 2017 09: 52
          Quote: murriou
          The mass production of aircraft in the USSR was no worse than the global level, while at its own production of engines and other important components.
          In tsarist Russia, there was virtually no production of their aircraft engines at all.

          Here again verbiage, aviation, as such, has been developing since the beginning of the 1900s, the revolution happened in 1917, only 10-12 years and WWII ended in 1945, 18 years have passed since the seventeenth year and almost forty since the beginning of the inception of aviation, with the existing developments, purchased licenses, machine tools, equipment, technologies ... such a mass scale is not news, but quality? Semi-veneer La-7 and P-51 comparable? And there is no need to sing here, but Kozhedub on La-7 and two Mustangs .... I know and I respect Kozhedub very much. And if we take medium-sized pilots on both sides, yes, on serial aircraft, and air combat, but at the entire altitude range ... What can I say if an anachronism for the United States, the R-39 was considered in the Red Army Air Force one of the best fighters that guards were armed with shelves.
          1. +1
            20 January 2017 10: 30
            Quote: veteran66
            Here again verbiage

            You? As always. laughing
            I can justify my words to any degree of detail, and you, as you boast about your "reliable sources" throughout the entire discussion, never once flashed them: even the little that you cited gives facts in my favor.

            Quote: veteran66
            aviation, as such, has evolved since the early 1900s

            YES.
            But it developed in different countries for DIFFERENT.

            In developed countries, even in "backward" Italy, they quickly switched to the production of hundreds, then thousands of aircraft a year, during WWI - tens of thousands.

            Developed countries produced OWN aircraft, and provided them with OWN units, incl. aircraft engines - which, due to rapid wear, required 2-3 for a single-engine aircraft during its service, for one "Muromets" required a dozen or a dozen motors.

            Russia did not have its own aircraft engine production, did not have its own aircraft engine models, the overwhelming majority of "Russian" aircraft were of foreign design and foreign production, engines, essno, on almost all "Russian" aircraft were foreign.

            In general, the "advanced" tsarist Russia was begging for scraps from the table of developed countries.
            But the USSR overcame the backwardness of tsarist Russia in a very short time.

            Quote: veteran66
            such mass is not news

            For the USSR - yes, not news.
            For tsarist Russia, there would have been news if there had achieved mass production comparable with the developed countries of the SAME TIME. Well, or at least with the same Italy laughing

            Quote: veteran66
            Semi-plywood La-7 and R-51 comparable?

            You’ll be surprised, but the English Vickers-Wellington, one of the most popular and well-deserved WWII bombers (issue 11,5 thousand!), Had linen sheathing over a wooden set, i.e. was still much more archaic than La-7 - and nothing laughing

            Quote: veteran66
            no need to sing here, but Kozhedub on La-7 and two Mustangs .... I know

            Well, you yourself know laughing
            And the Russian fighter pilots in WWI fought almost exclusively on French "Newpors", "Farman" and "Morahs", and English "Sopwiches". Do you also "know" that? laughing

            For comparison: the share of foreign aircraft in the Soviet Air Force during the Second World War was 13%.
            In the "Russian" fighter aircraft of the PMV, the number of aircraft of Russian models was dozens of copies, less than 1%. Feel the difference.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 13: 39
              Quote: murriou
              For comparison: the share of foreign aircraft in the Soviet Air Force during the Second World War was 13%.

              I, damn it about Thomas, and he about Emelya ... I'm about quality, it's about quantity. Well, if it’s about the quantity, but nothing, that two-thirds of the Red Army car fleet by the end of the war were Lend-Lease cars? And this is for the 17th year of Soviet power, after all industrializations, mechanizations, motorization .... that means the capstranges were able to provide their pilots and drivers with 100% domestic equipment, and even send to the Union, and the Soviet government only 30% for cars and 87% for airplanes, so where is the breakthrough?
              1. +1
                20 January 2017 15: 15
                Quote: veteran66
                Nothing that two-thirds of the Red Army fleet by the end of the war were Lend-Lease cars?

                You're lying.
                Your lies rely on the fact that you consider only Soviet cars produced during the Second World War and compare them with Lend-Lease deliveries.

                In reality, before the war, the USSR produced more than a million cars, before the war the production rate was hundreds of thousands per year. Of this amount, immediately in the Red Army received about 30%, i.e. more than 300 thousand ..
                Further, during mobilization, more than 200 thousand automobiles were transferred to the army during mobilization from cars that went into the national economy.

                And if all this is not "forgotten", as you and other scammers from history do, it turns out that lend-lease cars in the total number of cars of the Red Army were not 2/3, but less than 40%.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 17: 10
                  Quote: murriou
                  Your lies rely on the fact that you consider only Soviet cars produced during the Second World War and compare them with Lend-Lease deliveries.

                  you're lying, I took these data from the report of the State Academic Technical University, and there were taken into account cars that are in service with the Red Army at the end of the war, without taking into account the time of their release.
                  Quote: murriou
                  Before the war, the USSR produced more than a million cars,

                  Of this amount, immediately in the Red Army received about 30%, i.e. more than 300 thousand ..

                  during mobilization more than 200 thousand cars were transferred to the army.
                  AND? are you again verbally trying to divert the conversation away? Your calculations are not interesting to me. There is a report of the GABTU, I believe him more.
              2. +1
                20 January 2017 15: 18
                Quote: veteran66
                Soviet power is only 30% for cars and 87% for planes

                For cars, not 30%, but more than 60%. I have already explained this to you, maybe you will even "notice" and "master" it laughing
                And we take into account that during the Second World War car factories were transferred to more necessary military products, due to the plugging of the need for cars due to Lend-Lease.

                Now we look for comparison figures for tsarist Russia? Huh? From what time will they finally reach you? lol
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 17: 16
                  Quote: murriou
                  I already explained it to you,

                  your verbiage?
                  Quote: murriou
                  And we take into account that during WWII car factories were transferred to more necessary military products

                  which one?
                  Quote: murriou
                  Now we look for comparison figures for tsarist Russia?

                  again compare with the 13th year? laughing But what about the jerk? what Why not compare with rotting staffs or with impoverished Britain?
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2017 17: 35
                    Quote: veteran66
                    again compare with the 13th year?

                    And with what other year of the existence of tsarist Russia is it to compare? Since 1930, or what? Or how is it customary to consider it in your house for comparison? laughing

                    And is it not so that the result of the comparison is in favor of the USSR in all respects?
                    Although, this is for those who can read, count and think. Not to you with your unfinished parish church laughing
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 22: 47
                      Quote: murriou
                      And is it not so that the result of the comparison is in favor of the USSR in all respects?

                      but it’s nothing so that in industry and in the world progress is faster every year, so you need to compare one time at a time. It’s nothing that the inventor of television, Zvorykin, is Russian, that the first television images in the USSR were broadcast back in the mid-thirties, and color television began to be broadcast only in the late 70s, while the world watched color TV from the mid-fifties - early sixties. So this is not a jerk, but a regression.
                      1. 0
                        21 January 2017 03: 36
                        Quote: veteran66
                        you need to compare one at a time.

                        And how do you propose to compare RI and the USSR one at a time? Lying is not tossing bags, I understand. laughing

                        But here is the fact that, in the many examples I have cited, the RI industry was VERY deep, ahem, backward, and the USSR industry MUCH MUCH better at its task.
                        This can be seen in cars, aircraft, tanks, i.e. in ANY high-tech industry.

                        You could not dispute it, only flopped into puddles at every step, as soon as it came to the specifics: TTX / LTX, numbers, dates and other FACTS.
                        So what are you trying to argue about? laughing

                        Quote: veteran66
                        inventor of television Zvorykin - Russian

                        You brilliantly proved your ignorance, once again. It’s not necessary to repeat a lot of mind about the myths of the bakery, but you don’t even have a clue about what you’re talking about. lol

                        0. You constantly confuse acid with round, and science and invention with industry.
                        Once again, I sympathize with your parish level of education and development. crying

                        1. Television is a complex matter, many technical and scientific solutions are used for it, each of which had its own inventors in different countries. Among these countries were Russia and the USSR, yes - but not the only ones.

                        2. The principle of television and the first device for its mechanical implementation was invented by Paul Nipkov, more precisely Nipkoff.
                        He was a pure German and a German citizen, although the crushers are trying to declare him Russian too - not knowing the biography of the inventor and buying into the "Russian" sound of the surname. laughing

                        3. The photoelectric effect in selenium, which became the fundamental basis of video cameras, was discovered by Willoughby Smith, an Englishman.

                        4. Zvorykin - a Soviet specialist, by the way, was no more than one of the inventors on this long list. Behind him the merit of creating an iconoscope in 1931.
                        This device was already similar to a kinescope, but the American Karnosuot later invented a real kinescope.
            2. 0
              20 January 2017 13: 53
              Quote: murriou
              And the Russian fighter pilots in WWI fought almost exclusively on French "Newpors", "Farman" and "Morahs", and English "Sopwiches". Do you also "know" that?

              Lying again, but what about Lebedev's plants?
              In 1916, the company produced an average of one airplane per day. In addition to aircraft, the plant produced spare parts for airplanes, aircraft skis, propellers and radiators.
              In the factory territory in 1916 there were woodworking, mechanical, locksmith, welding, assembly, painting, drying shops and a carpentry workshop. True, the limited territory made it difficult to expand the plant. The plant employed about 1500 workers. The chief designer was engineer Shkulnik, who was replaced by Rebikov. Under their leadership, a special design bureau operated.

              During the war, the "Joint Stock Society of Aeronautics of V. A. Lebedev" built experimental aircraft of Russian designers: "Svyatogor" by V. Slesarev, "Swan-Grand" by L. Kolpakov, "Sea Parasol" by G. Fride, "Swan" -XVII C Gurevich and the flying boat "VM-4" A. Willisha.

              In 1917, Lebedev decided to significantly expand his production. However, the land plot at the Commandant airfield was of limited size and did not allow the ambitious plans of the aircraft manufacturer to be implemented. Therefore, Vladimir Lebedev decided to build three more plants in Taganrog, Penza and Yaroslavl.
              but the revolution prevented, the Bolsheviks declared him a counter, and Lebedev was forced to flee. http://www.citywalls.ru/house14517.html?s=5gbo1bk
              16sdv0ua5vi80lcr5o2
              and there was also the Dux plant
              Prior to the nationalization of the plant, it produced 22 different types of aircraft; Dux was also famous for the production of airships. For the imperial army during the First World War, the factory collected 1569 aircraft.

              http://soviet-moto.ru/%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0
              %B4-%D0%B4%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%81/
              And the plant on which Grigorovich’s flying boats were built
              In 1915, as a result of the activities of engineer Grigorovich and large orders from the naval and military departments, the PRTV plant merged with two other enterprises and received a new name "Gamayun". Dmitry Pavlovich's authority has grown enormously. He is already invited as a recognized specialist to meetings at the Admiralty, at which pressing issues of naval aviation are discussed. The activities of the "Gamayun" plant took a pronounced "marine" orientation.
              http://ww1.milua.org/awgrigorovich_all.htm да, пусть многие самолёты были копией по лицензии, но их делали в России а также самолёты своей конструкции и немало.
              1. +1
                20 January 2017 14: 55
                Quote: veteran66
                let many planes be licensed copies

                That's when the USSR does something under the license, even if it is much better than the original - so it’s immediately horror-horror-horror! laughing

                And when tsarist Russia does something under license, even if it is much worse than the original, it’s an achievement for you! lol

                You first decide somehow, huh? lol laughing

                Now, about "many". Again, you are avoiding exact figures, because you know perfectly well that they are not in your favor.
                But you are trying to LIE in the hope that someone here knows a topic worse than you laughing laughing laughing

                So: the total production of aircraft in the Republic of Ingushetia during the PMV, as we have already found out, is 4,7 thousand.
                Yes, it is 14 times less than France, 11 times less than England, 10+ times less than Germany, even less than Italy, 4+ times.

                But even this minuscule is MUCH more than the number of "Russian" planes of a kind of Russian design (forgive, that on foreign engines).

                including: "Muromtsev" of all series 60-70 eks, we count to the maximum, Grigorovich's boats of all series about 300 eks, incl. considering the release of M-5 before 1921 (!) laughing
                Let's add to the pile an incomplete series of 15 C-16s, obsolete during preparation for serial production, and 50 Mosca aircraft made by an ITALIAN, but in Russian service lol laughing - appreciate my generosity! - all the same, we do not reach 400.

                This, I explain for graduates of the first grade of secondary vocational schools who are not able to count at all, from 1 is 4700%. Less than one tenth.
                Further explain? Or even a parish education allows us to understand what's what? laughing laughing laughing
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 17: 20
                  Quote: murriou
                  That's when the USSR does something under the license, even if it is much better than the original - so it’s immediately horror-horror-horror!

                  no, it's just an answer to your horror-horror in RI
                  Quote: murriou
                  This, I explain for graduates of the first grade of secondary vocational schools who are not able to count at all, from 1 is 4700%. Less than one tenth.

                  you probably didn’t get into the 1st grade of the central vocational school, I’m explaining to you for the fifth time that it’s been time to switch to quality from the quantity at that time, but it wasn’t in the USSR, so at the level of the 30s to mid 40s came up. And then
                  Quote: murriou
                  as we have already found out, 4,7 thousand copies.

                  maybe you have already figured out, but where is the digit or is it enough to engage in verbiage?
              2. +1
                20 January 2017 15: 04
                Quote: veteran66
                During the war, the "Joint-Stock Society of Aeronautics of V. A. Lebedev" built experienced aircraft of Russian designers: "Svyatogor" V. Slesarev, "Lebed-Grand" by L. Kolpakov, "Marine Parasol" by G. Fride, "Lebed" -XVII by S. Gurevich and flying boat "VM-4" by A. Willisha.

                Now translate Your "trusted data" laughing into human language.

                1. Finally, we notice the word EXPERIENCES. Those. experimental, and in single copies.

                2. "Svyatogor":
                built March 13, 1916, brought to 1921, but could not make a flight.
                laughing

                3. "Swan-Grand" L. Kolpakov. As-if-built from 1915 to 1917. After that, naturally, the bad dancer was prevented by his pants lol - It’s nothing so that over the previous 2 years satisfactory results from him were never achieved.

                4. "Marine Parasol" by G. Fride. To begin with, "parasol" is the Russian name for the FRENCH aircraft of the "Moran."
                Moreover: it WAS a "parasol", to which they tried to attach a boat hull instead of a native one. Never took off.

                5. "Swan" -XVII S. Gurevich.
                From your entire list - FIRST really flying! Urya-Urya! fellow

                True, only in August 1917 was it possible to put it on the wing.
                And even a series production was started, as it were, several copies.
                The plane is mediocre, from the world level, naturally, already seriously behind at the time of launch in a series, but this is Tsarist Russia, what more can we expect.

                6. BM-4 Willis. We look:
                This copy, which was made at the V.A. Lebedev, almost completely corresponded to VM-2, but was equipped with a mechanism for changing the angle of installation of the wings. It is the latter circumstance that allows us to assume that this aircraft, equipped with a 100 hp Gnome-Monosupap engine. was repaired VM-1 and under the designation VM-4 it was presented for delivery to the customer.
                - i.e., it’s not even a completely different model laughing

                Total: from the entire spreading list of "achievements" TWO aircraft actually flew, of which one was already known earlier, only a little corrected in one copy.

                This is what happens if without a clue in the subject, as you have, guglyandeksom rummaging around all the internet dumps in search of confirmation crunchy myths laughing laughing laughing
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 17: 22
                  Quote: murriou
                  Finally, we notice the word EXPERIENCES. Those. experimental, and in single copies.

                  no need to take sentences out of context, I didn’t write about training and experimental aircraft, I just copied the entire text, otherwise you go into hysterics when I do not fully quote the texts, so all your “smart” text is fucking, in vain your fingers hit the keys
            3. 0
              20 January 2017 14: 00
              Quote: murriou
              You’ll be surprised, but the English Vickers-Wellington, one of the most popular and honored WWII bombers (issue 11,5 thousand!),

              yes, no, you didn’t surprise me, it’s just a bomber, and Mosquito was also wooden, and what else? And in the USSR there were all, even the armored IL-2 was half-wooden.
        2. 0
          20 January 2017 09: 56
          Quote: murriou
          And then, as they received shameful defeats from this "trifle" one after another, they stopped talking like that

          in the 39th, they also thought of Finland that way ... and then they got the teeth, I therefore say that the size of the country is not the most important characteristic.
          1. +1
            20 January 2017 10: 03
            For you, it is strictly classified that the Russo-Japanese War tsarist Russia LOST to pieces, and the USSR WINS in the Winter War.
            1. 0
              20 January 2017 10: 06
              Quote: murriou
              and the USSR WINS in the Winter War.

              for you, probably, the data on the planned results of this war are classified, the surname Kuusinen is strictly secret. So to speak of complete victory, as it were ...., and the defeat was requested on the knees of the Japanese.
              1. +1
                20 January 2017 11: 21
                Quote: veteran66
                for you, probably, the data of the planned results of this war are classified

                Plans for that and plans. And in fact, I repeat, the USSR WINS. Any objections? laughing Justified. Waiting for lol

                Quote: veteran66
                defeat was begged on the knees by the Japanese.

                Thanks, have fun! Even Carbine and Simpson didn’t see such nonsense, and they succeeded in clinical psychiatry before you laughing

                Can you name at least one Russian victory in the REV, except for the skirmishes of reconnaissance units, etc.? Call, wait, sir.

                ALL significant battles of the REV were lost by Russia. At the same time, even in defense, the Russian army managed to sustain losses comparable to the advancing Japanese, or even more.

                Against the background of such a disgrace, try to at least somehow justify your nonsense about the Japanese on their knees. Do not offer your personal "authoritative" opinion, you better go to the doctor with him lol
                1. 0
                  20 January 2017 13: 11
                  Quote: murriou
                  ALL significant battles of the REV were lost by Russia. At the same time, even in defense, the Russian army managed to sustain losses comparable to the advancing Japanese, or even more.

                  Well, you're lying
                  The famous historian B. Ts. Urlanis in his work "Wars and the Population of Europe" states that "25331 Russian soldiers and officers were killed in this war. To this number must be added the losses of the fleet, which amounted to 6299 people." The researcher excludes from the results those who died from wounds and diseases. “According to Russian official data,” continues B. Ts. Urlanis, “Japanese losses are estimated at 47387 killed. Other sources, including Japanese, give figures very close to this. Thus, the Japanese lost 2 thousand people killed. In total, 49,4 thousand people were killed in this war, and including those who died from wounds - 81 thousand people. Japanese losses in battles on land were twice as high as the losses of Russians. "

                  If you do not know, then it was Japan that initiated the peace negotiations, moreover, twice and in the negotiations agreed to all the demands of Russia to moderate the appetites of the "winning side":
                  Russia insisted that Japan do not carry out actions without the approval of the Korean government that affect the sovereignty of Korea. A condition was imposed on Japan on the withdrawal of the armed forces of the two countries from Manchuria. In response to Japan’s claims to South Ossetia Railways, the Russian delegation agreed to cede to Japan only that part of the road that was in the Japanese zone of occupation, and that only with the consent of China.
                  Russia rejected Japan’s demands for Sakhalin, interned ships, the limitation of Russian naval forces in the Far East, and indemnities. Consent was only given to Japan to compensate for the costs of prisoners of war. In connection with the firm position of the Russian delegation, which stated at the first meeting that “there are no winners or losers at the conference,” and before the prospect of a continuation of the war, Japan wavered and refused the requirements for limiting naval forces, issuing interned ships and paying indemnities subject to concession to it Southern Sakhalin and paying 1,2 billion yen for the return of northern Sakhalin to Russia. The Russian side was ready to give in on Sakhalin, but refused to pay a fee for the return of its northern part. Even despite US pressure on Russia, Witte was firm in his demands. Ultimately, the Japanese government decided to make peace without indemnity, leaving Japan to the south of Sakhalin. Japan also had to give a number of guarantees and obligations ensuring the safety of trade and navigation of Russian vessels.
                  The signing of the contract was perceived by the Japanese public as humiliation and caused riots in Tokyo.[i] [/ i]
                  is it the smash winner on your side? The Russian government willingly took advantage of Roosevelt's proposal, as it needed peace to intensify the struggle against the unfolding revolution, and not at all because of defeats at the front.

                  Source: http://histerl.ru/periudi_istorii/russko-iaponska
                  ia_voina / purtsmutskie_mir.htm
                  1. +1
                    20 January 2017 13: 51
                    You continue to demonstrate your own ignorance.
                    WHERE is the list of Russian victories in the REV?
                    This is not the first time I have asked, and you have never even tried to answer. Because you yourself know that the truth is not in your favor. and I won’t miss a lie.

                    In your quote, note:
                    Quote: veteran66
                    Researcher excludes from totals dead from wounds and diseases.

                    In addition, this "researcher" completely "forgot" about the POWERS, of whom there were about 80 thousand in the RYAV on the Russian side - and this, by the way, is irrevocable military losses.

                    And the funniest thing was that on the Russian side there were a huge number of so-called. missing, translated into human language - not officially counted killed.

                    Their number was almost equal to the number of those killed, and amounted to 2-3% of the initial personnel in most battles of the strategic nuclear forces, for which such data are given.

                    And by the way, even if you do not admit this, all the same missing persons are irrevocable losses.

                    And now I am waiting for your explanations, where the missing Russian soldiers could have disappeared on Chinese soil, in thousands and tens of thousands, except in this very land.

                    There were a lot of lies in Russian reports about RYAV. "Missing" is just one of the tricks.
                    Taking into account the losses in Port Arthur, sailors and militias were completely "forgotten", as well as a significant part of the soldiers who were not in the garrison, but retreated from distant approaches.

                    If this "forgetfulness" is cured, it turns out that there were 59 thousand irrecoverable (!) Russian losses in Port Arthur, incl. 41 thousand prisoners, the rest - those who died before the surrender of the fortress, and plus to them - almost 2 thousand who died in the first days of captivity from wounds and exhaustion, it was already impossible to save them.
                    The death toll of Port Arthur's Japanese was almost one and a half times less.
                    The numbers waving the bakers are figures of GENERAL Japanese losses, i.e. irrevocable + sanitary, incl. about 30 thousand patients. And even there are MUCH LESS THAN than in the same way the calculated number of TOTAL Russian losses.

                    Further, in Tsushima, 5 thousand were officially recognized dead even before finding out the exact numbers.
                    And now - a little arithmetic for elementary school.
                    The total number of l / s squadron before the battle - 16,171 thousand people.
                    Of these, just over 6 thousand are prisoners.
                    1,8 thousand internees.
                    0,87 thousand burst into Vladivostok. Just over 5%.
                    Who stayed on the pipe? 7,5 thousand people. This is all DIET. One and a half times more than the official figure, which is already terrible.
                    = * =
                  2. +1
                    20 January 2017 14: 00
                    Quote: veteran66
                    If you do not know, it was Japan that initiated peace negotiations

                    YES. If the war has already been won, why continue it?

                    The Japanese were not going to advance to St. Petersburg at all; ALL of their goals were fulfilled and even exceeded. Before the EPE they proposed a division of spheres of influence: Russia - Manchuria, Japan - Korea, and as a result of the war, the Japanese captured both that and the other, and all of Sakhalin in addition.
                    Then they returned half of the results of the peace treaty, but before the war they did not even hope for that half.

                    Quote: veteran66
                    during the negotiations agreed to all the demands of Russia to moderate the appetites of the "winning side"

                    Have you ever had to bargain in the eastern bazaar? lol
                    If you are offered to buy a product at a 10-fold price, and you bring down the price to a 3-fold price, I don’t know the real price - you think that you won sooooo well? laughing

                    According to the results of the REV, Japan received VERY much from Russia, and Russia received ONLY losses. Is it like winning for you because you didn’t give even more? laughing

                    Quote: veteran66
                    needed peace to intensify the struggle against the unfolding revolution, and not at all because of defeats at the front.

                    Yes, the grapes were green-green! laughing
                    But is it so that ALL battles of the RJV Russia lost?
                    Nothing so that the vast majority of them were lost BEFORE the start of revolutionary fermentation, and all the rest were lost completely independent of revolutionary events?

                    Quote: veteran66
                    Consent was only given to Japan to compensate for prisoners of war

                    And for this, Russia paid Japan 46 million rubles in gold.

                    I understand that it is not necessary to be able to count with your 1st grade TSS lol but if you count the salary of all Russian prisoners during their stay in captivity, then it is less than 2 million rubles.
                    Of the 46 million paid!

                    Obviously, real maintenance costs are several times less than the salary - for example, at the time of the RVE for a Russian officer on a business trip with the required seniority, the required travel expenses are 6-8 times less than his salary for the same time.
                    Further explain? laughing
                  3. 0
                    20 January 2017 16: 52
                    Quote: veteran66
                    The Russian government willingly took advantage of Roosevelt's proposal, as it needed peace to intensify the struggle against the unfolding revolution

                    Actually, the "revolution of 1905" is the fantasy of the Bolsheviks. Exactly the same as VOSR in 1917. Yes, there were some minor unrest during that period, but nothing more.
                    The tsarist government was in dire need of peace with the Japanese because of the traditional lack of rear. That is precisely why, under the tsars and under the Bolsheviks, Russia and the USSR were only capable of small independent operations. Or, theoretically, in a blitzkrieg, but this has never happened in fact.
                    A further war with Japan would lead to a worsening of the situation with the supply and aggravation of the protest movement (at that time not yet fellow citizens lived in Russia). And this for the regime was fraught with much greater troubles than Paul Sakhalin, etc.
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2017 17: 03
                      Quote: JS20
                      Yes, there were some minor unrest in that period, but nothing more.

                      Do you, the bakers, somehow at first agree among you about cowards and a cross, can I? laughing

                      And then after all, according to the official crystal bakery mythology, only because of the revolution, the Republic of Ingushetia blew into the air the RYA.

                      And you, it turns out, have "minor worries". And you didn't have VOSR, in the alternative history of your chamber laughing laughing laughing
                    2. +1
                      20 January 2017 17: 06
                      Quote: JS20
                      that under the tsars, that under the Bolsheviks, Russia and the USSR were only capable of small independent operations.

                      Has your doctor definitely allowed you to surf the Internet? And then vague doubts torment me laughing

                      But in our universe, the USSR smashed the Japanese to smithereens in 1939. on Khalkhin Gol and in 1945 throughout Manchuria. And in between, he won the Second World War and finished it in Berlin.

                      Although for you personally all of this, of course, was not laughing
                2. 0
                  20 January 2017 13: 31
                  Quote: murriou
                  But in fact, I repeat,

                  but in fact you only have slogans
                  The Soviet-Finnish “winter” war lasted 105 days, from November 30, 1939 to March 13, 1940. In the military force operating on the front from the Barents Sea to the Gulf of Finland with a length of more than 1 km, ¼ of all land troops of the Red Army. The strength of the army, including formations and units of the land army, fleet, aviation and the NKVD troops, amounted to approximately 400 million people. Soviet troops suffered heavy losses in this war.
                  About six thousand Red Army soldiers knew the bitterness of Finnish captivity, among them 5,5 thousand were returned to the Soviet Union, a little more than a hundred people died, and several dozen people chose Finland as their place of residence. Several hundred Red Army soldiers joined the ranks of the Russian People’s Army, which was once headed by former secretary of the leader Boris Bazhanov. This army was going to fight against Bolshevism. The fate of the soldiers of this army has not yet been clarified. The personnel of the Red Army lost slightly more than 300 thousand wounded, sick and frostbite, according to some estimates. The Red Army had large tank losses - about 600 tanks that could not be recovered. The Finns captured about a hundred Soviet tanks, about 1800 vehicles received combat holes, 70 tanks did not stand the test of technical reliability during the fighting and were out of order, as were the losses on aircraft, as well as those crashed in aerial battles and ground anti-aircraft attacks. funds turned out to be about five hundred aircraft. The Finns lost about 30 aircraft and 22 tanks. About 43 thousand Finns were killed in battles. At the same time, about a thousand Finnish civilians died from the bombing and shelling. Of the eleven thousand foreign volunteers, most of whom were Swedes, 40 people died and about two hundred were injured. The Finnish army suffered non-lethal losses in the amount of XNUMX thousand people, while about two hundred were captured. As a result, about nine hundred Finnish troops returned from captivity to their homeland. Twenty people remained in the USSR. The result of the Soviet-Finnish winter campaign was the alliance of Finland with Nazi Germany

                  Source: http://sovietime.ru/dati-1917-1940-godi/poteri-vo
                  iuiuschich-storon-v-sovetsko-finskoy-voyne-1939-1
                  940 years
                  Good fucking victory. And if you take into account that they did not achieve the main goal and did not put the government of Kuusinen on the throne "legally elected by the people of Finland", then in general ...
                  1. +1
                    20 January 2017 14: 21
                    Yes, the loss of tanks is many times greater than the USSR used them in the Finnish War, and it is impressive with the whole tank fleet of the Red Army - it’s impressive! laughing
                    Why didn’t you pick up on your Internet dumps ...

                    Quote: veteran66
                    The Finnish army suffered non-lethal losses in the amount of 40 thousand people

                    Now, let's start with the reason this time forgotten lol You Wikipedia:
                    According to Finnish data: 25 killed [904] 5 wounded [43] 557 prisoners [6]

                    So much for "40 thousand non-lethal all losses" laughing

                    Further: the Finnish official data presented here do NOT include foreign volunteers, the militia and the government.
                    And they participated in the Winter War in an amount MORE than the Finnish regular army. And the losses among them were also greater.
                    According to Russian sources: up to 95 thousand [8] soldiers killed 45 thousand wounded 806 prisoners


                    Next:
                    Quote: veteran66
                    The personnel of the Red Army lost a little more than 300 thousand people wounded, sick and frostbite, according to some estimates.

                    Well, you must, "according to some estimates" laughing And according to some other estimates, you can count a million or two. Read the "assessments" of Solzhenitsyn, Rezun, Solonin ... lol laughing

                    In your beloved (selectively laughing ) Wikipedia, with all the efforts of the anti-Soviet lobby, the figures are at least closer to adequate:
                    126 were killed and died at the stages of sanitary evacuation, including:
                    16 died of wounds and diseases in hospitals,
                    39 369 missing
                    264 sanitary losses [908]

                    As you can see, here the missing are immediately recorded in the dead.
                    And if you count how the tsar’s losses in the REV are calculated, then from the same data the Soviet losses would be several times smaller than the Finnish ones laughing laughing laughing

                    Quote: veteran66
                    Good, damn it, victory.

                    Whatever it is, but still VICTORY. No matter how hard you try to cheat on her.

                    And in the REV, no matter how you try to whitewash her, RI suffered a LOSS.
                    And none of your squeals of these facts can not cancel.
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2017 17: 27
                      Quote: murriou
                      Whatever it is, but still VICTORY. No matter how hard you try to cheat on her.

                      that means, when you need, we draw the slogans of the Communist Party of the Communist Party from Wikipedia, and how it contradicts, then it means Bravo dump! good what after that you can talk to you. Well, rejoice at the great losses of our soldiers and officers, "women give birth to something else," right?
  39. +1
    19 January 2017 11: 21
    Social - democrats, liberal parties with whose connivance Hitler came to power. Cadets, ESdeks, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks and other bourgeois nonsense. But with real communists in Germany there has always been a problem. There wasn’t enough decisiveness, reluctance to take power by force, or it might have been understood that Soviet Russia could not have come to the rescue, and the revolution would have been suppressed by the Anglo-French intervention!
  40. 0
    20 January 2017 09: 42
    Quote: murriou
    The jerk is that you are forced to compare the Soviet aircraft with the best examples of the most industrialized power

    We can compare with the English.
    1. +1
      20 January 2017 17: 30
      Quote: veteran66
      We can compare with English

      You? Can you laughing Then why didn’t they? lol

      But is it so that I ALREADY brought you the LTX data for this comparison?
      Although, it’s you ... Your "intellect" immediately shrinks from the sight of figures and facts. lol
      Traditionally, I sympathize with your inability to read technical information in Russian and understand what was read. laughing

      So, for the undergraduates from the Central Computer School, the result of the comparison is immediately: Soviet aircraft were noticeably superior to their English counterparts in altitude and speed. More questions? laughing
      1. 0
        20 January 2017 22: 52
        Quote: murriou
        So, for the undergraduates from the Central Computer School, the result of the comparison is immediately: Soviet aircraft were noticeably superior to their English counterparts in altitude and speed.

        yeah, they just didn’t fly, because there weren’t enough compressors for everyone. Enough to push these slogans. I heard about the massive bombing of cities and industrial facilities in Germany and Japan by the Americans, I read a lot about the British, but I don’t remember the attacks of more than 10 airplanes of the Red Army? Probably flying too high and fast, no one noticed ... can you tell me?
        1. +1
          21 January 2017 04: 00
          Quote: veteran66
          Enough to push these slogans.

          I understand that you, the bakers, and you personally including, are writhing from any mention of the successes of the USSR as incense devils laughing laughing laughing But these are your problems.

          No less than you writhes from pointing to real unsightly facts from the history of tsarist Russia. But this is not my problem lol laughing

          My "slogans" are confirmed by figures and facts, and your nonsense is not confirmed by anything.
          All the sources * allegedly cited by you * were examined by me in detail and by bones: each time your illiteracy was found out, and either the sources of the sources you chose were incorrect, or * the wondrous selectivity * of your quotation, right down to lies or forgery.

          For example, from the "corner of the sky" you pulled out the faithful flight characteristics of Muromets-E, but NAVRALI, attributing this data to aircraft of the 1914 model.

          Moreover, in fact, "Muromets-E" was made only in 1917, when it lagged far behind analogues in all developed countries, and there were only 3 copies among them.
          It was all written in the article that you quoted and referenced - but you definitely have problems reading and understanding in Russian ... or - with honesty and good faith? lol

          And so with all your "sources".
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +1
              21 January 2017 17: 21
              Quote: veteran66
              nonsense, I said that IM has developed and achieved Kaproni’s indicators

              Well then you * incorrectly expressed * so that it became difficult to understand you without telepathy and clairvoyance laughing

              You forgot" lol It should be noted that the "Ilya Muromets" approached the speed indicators of the Caproni Ca.31 model of 1914 (!) only in 1917 (!), and only in the extra-small (!) series E of THREE copies, laughing and the altitude, which Caproni achieved from the very beginning, "IM-E" did not reach even then.

              You forgot" lol take into account that world aviation in developed countries developed much faster than in tsarist Russia, and in 1917 even extremal Series E turned out to be hopelessly lagging behind the achievements of Italy, Germany, England by 1916-1917, and the most massive "Muromets" were hopelessly behind already in 1915-1916.

              You, as always, "forgot" that developed countries made their planes on OWN aircraft engines, and only tsarist Russia begged for handouts and scraps from the table of developed powers. feel

              And the rest, yes, mother Russia sometimes developed under the priest-king laughing laughing laughing
  41. +1
    21 January 2017 03: 47
    Quote: veteran66
    something I can’t remember more than 10 airplanes of the Red Army Air Force?

    1. Your memory is your problem. Front-line bombers flew out for bombardment with squadrons, while squadrons comprised 9-12 aircraft, and an entire regiment could take part in an important sortie, i.e. several squadrons.

    2. It was Soviet aircraft FIRST in WWII bombed Berlin.

    3. In the raid on Berlin on August 7/8, 1941, 15 aircraft participated.
    Treat memory, "veteran" laughing

    4. In total, there were 33 Soviet aircraft, in 1941 ... they bombed Berlin

    5. And what about examples of the strategic use of "Muromtsy", about which I have been asking you for a long time, but you still cannot give birth to confirmations of your delirium?
    What was behind them generally comparable?
    1. +1
      21 January 2017 14: 50
      Quote: murriou
      It was the Soviet aircraft FIRST in WWII bombed Berlin.

      The British bombed Berlin since 1940. Even Molotov with Ribbentrop in November 1940. finished negotiations at the bomb shelter. This is a famous historical fact.
      By the way, after these negotiations, Hitler gave instructions to begin active preparations for military operations on the Eastern Front. And four weeks later, he signed "Directive No. 21", called the "Barabarossa plan."
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +1
          21 January 2017 16: 23
          Quote: veteran66
          yeah, how much can one catch a person’s lies, even enuresis in his eyes, all God's dew.

          Yes, "veteran" and "carbine", which is now after several. the nicknames banned for lying are already JS20, you are all God's dew - and now this is another example laughing laughing laughing

          It is nothing that Molotov and Ribbentrop held all their negotiations in 1939, and they no longer had any negotiations in 1940.

          It’s nothing that there was no bombing of Berlin until August 41, and Goering publicly announced that not a single enemy bomb had fallen on Berlin in the fall of that year.

          Nothing so that a blackout was introduced in Berlin only after the Soviet air raid.

          But to you * alternative to gifted creatures *, all these facts are STRICTLY classified.

          But it was worth the "carbine" to blurt out another nonsense from the alternative history of his personal * chambers *, and immediately the "veteran" began to extol this nonsense as a holy true truth - as always happens to him when it finds something dear to his heart on some Internet trash heap laughing laughing

          Thank you, patients, have fun again lol
          1. +1
            21 January 2017 17: 09
            Quote: murriou
            It’s nothing that there was no bombing of Berlin until August 41, and Goering publicly announced that not a single enemy bomb had fallen on Berlin in the fall of that year.

            Here is a chatterbox. That is why, for empty verbose chatter, I consider him just a troll. And I prefer not to communicate.
            But this time I’ll clarify:
            Goering declared this in August 1939.
            The first air raid on Berlin was made by the French on June 7, 1940.
            The British first bombed Berlin on August 26, 1940.
            By the end of 1940, the total damage from the English raids cost Berlin up to 1800 destroyed buildings.
            Quote: murriou
            It’s nothing that there was no bombing of Berlin until August 41, and Goering publicly announced that not a single enemy bomb had fallen on Berlin in the fall of that year.

            And he does not know this. Molotov arrived for negotiations in Berlin on November 12, 1940.
          2. +1
            21 January 2017 19: 14
            [quote = murriou] It’s nothing that there was no bombing of Berlin until August 41, [/ quote]
            [/ quote] [quote = murriou] Thanks, patients, have fun again [/ quote]
            Well, continue to have fun further, I look there you have fun:
            [quote] In August 1939, a month before the outbreak of World War II, the Luftwaffe commander Hermann Goering claimed that the Ruhr would never be bombed. However, the first bombs fell on Berlin the very next year - the French launched their first air raid on Berlin on June 7, 1940. One (!!!) Farman-1 aircraft participated in that “punitive” operation, dropping bombs in the south-west of the German capital. Then there were no casualties among the population, but on August 223, 26, the first “serious" bombardment of Berlin took place:
            22 tons of bombs were dropped in the northwestern part of the city, 12 people were killed, and serious damage was also caused. There would have been much more victims, because initially the British had 81 aircraft (Wellington and Hampden types), but only 29 aircraft reached the target, and 7 of them were shot down over the city.
            By the end of 1940, the total damage from the English raids cost Berlin about 200 killed and up to 1800 destroyed buildings. The relatively small number of victims is simply explained - the main targets were not residential quarters - the largest factories (AEG, BMW, Dornier, Heinkel, Fokke-Wulf) were located in the city, and the main hub of roads and railways Germany, and, of course, the headquarters of the Reich. [/ Quote]
            And in general, following your logic about the IM leadership - if there were few of them released, then it does not count, then there were no bombing raids by the Red Army Air Force of Berlin, and there are few planes, and indeed not the first. Continue to "think" further mister, sorry, comrade lied.
        2. +1
          21 January 2017 17: 44
          Quote: veteran66
          so much as you can catch a person’s lies, even enuresis in his eyes, all God's dew

          Yes, the troll is ordinary. Moreover, unknowing. He and the negotiations of Molotov in November 1940. denies. Although there is even a photo

          From the photo you can easily attach to the dates. The Highland Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was proclaimed at the congress of the peoples of the Terek region on November 17, 1920 in Vladikavkaz. And in the same newspaper (to the left) it is written that they celebrated the 20th anniversary of this republic and there is a date on November 17th. It was just November 17, 1940.
          Apparently now murriou will say that this is a photo montage.
          1. +1
            21 January 2017 19: 21
            Quote: JS20
            Yes, the troll is ordinary. Moreover, unknowing.

            Yes, you need to connect with him, only spend time.
            1. +1
              21 January 2017 19: 49
              Quote: veteran66
              Yes, you need to connect with him, only spend time.

              Good idea. I have been ignoring him for a long time. Although he clings constantly.
    2. 0
      21 January 2017 15: 16
      Quote: murriou
      7 airplanes participated in the raid on Berlin on August 8/1941, 15.

      he’s lying and not blinking even:
      At 1:30 a.m. on August 8, five aircraft dropped bombs on well-lit Berlin, the rest were bombed in the Berlin suburbs and Stettin

      http://back-in-ussr.info/2016/11/pervyj-nalyot-na
      -berlin /
      Fly and fly are two different things.
      In total, before September 5, Soviet pilots completed nine raids on Berlin, making a total of 86 sorties. 33 aircraft bombed Berlin, dropping 21 tons of bombs on it and causing 32 fires in the city.

      Source: http://fishki.net/2154125-pervyj-nalyot-na-berlin
      .html
      Well, where is there at least once more than ten? And then someone calls himself the ultimate truth.
      Quote: murriou
      Your memory is your problem.

      What was not with me remembered
      it's about Brezhnev, I think you have the same thing with your head.
      Quote: murriou
      Front-line bombers flew out to bombardment squadrons

      and we distort the facts again, it was a matter of strategic bombing
      1. +1
        21 January 2017 16: 41
        Quote: veteran66
        Well, where is there at least once more than ten?

        Traditionally, I sympathize with your inability to read Russian and understand what you read, even in your own quotes and your own links! crying laughing

        And once again I repeat the details classified for you:
        In total, before September 5, Soviet pilots completed nine raids on Berlin, making a total of 86 sorties. 33 aircraft bombed Berlin, dropping 21 tons of bombs on it and causing 32 fires in the city. 37 aircraft were unable to reach the capital of Germany and attacked other cities. In total, 311 HE and incendiary bombs with a total weight of 36050 kg were consumed. Thirty-four leaflets were dropped.

        Read, enlighten, treat memory laughing

        We look more closely:
        Quote: veteran66
        five aircraft dropped bombs on well lit Berlin, rest bombed in Berlin suburbs and Stettin
        and notice the word "rest".
        Did these others participate in the air raid? YES.
        Are they among the participants in the air raid? YES.
        How many were there? We read in your favorite Wikipedia that which turned out to be UNSUPERABLE for you: lol
        At 21:00 p.m. on August 7, a special one rose from the Cahul airport on the island of Ezel strike group of 15 bombers[8] DB-3 Baltic Fleet Air Force
        ...
        The Germans did not expect the air raid so much that they turned on the blackout only 40 seconds after the first bombs fell on the city
        ...
        At 4 am on August 8, after a 7-hour flight, the crews lossless returned to the airport.

        Further, about the "undeveloped": the Berlin suburb - a few kilometers from the city center, Stettin - 126 km from Berlin, also a German city and an object of strategic importance. And the planes that bombed it are ALSO participants of the same air raid, and you, in your own words, Quote: veteran66
        something I can’t remember more than 10 airplanes of the Red Army Air Force?

        So treat your memory now laughing
        1. 0
          21 January 2017 19: 30
          Quote: murriou
          Did these others participate in the air raid? YES.

          logic at the feminine level, and how many along the front that day went up, let's calculate them too, we’ll reach hundreds right away.
          Quote: murriou
          Further, about the "undeveloped": the Berlin suburb - a few kilometers from the city center, Stettin - 126 km from Berlin, also a German city and an object of strategic importance.

          Yes, I don’t care a strategic object or not, how many aircraft were there at the same time over the target? There are five over Berlin and it is not known how many over Stettin, since the rest not only bombed Stettin, but also the suburb, even if divided equally, it turns out to be five. I'm just crazy about the scale, as many as five planes !!!! You again went into verbiage, we are talking about thousands of planes, and here you have arranged five or ten, but at least thirty, what does that change? The same "scope" as in tsarist Russia. Where are the vastness of plans? So it remains to be proud of only millions of losses, there's no denying that.
      2. +1
        21 January 2017 16: 44
        Quote: veteran66
        it was about strategic bombing

        And by the way, where are your examples of = strategic = bombing with the participation of "Ilya Muromets"?
        You have long borne this nonsense, and since then you have never been able to give birth to a single confirmation, even though I remind you of this already how many times every day - and you all have God's dew laughing laughing laughing
        1. 0
          21 January 2017 19: 32
          Quote: murriou
          And by the way, where are your examples of = strategic = bombing with the participation of "Ilya Muromets"?

          where am I talking about strategic bombing? As far as I know, in the entire history of the Air Force of the Republic of Ingushetia, the Red Army, the SA and the Russian Federation, strategic bombing has not yet been carried out.
  42. 0
    21 January 2017 15: 25
    Quote: murriou
    This device was already similar to a kinescope, but the American Karnosuot later invented a real kinescope.
    you again try to take the conversation away with your verbiage, Zvorykin is like that, by the way, and he worked in the states in general, the Bolsheviks kicked him out, but if you got a polemic about a complicated matter here, then it turns out the AK about which you sang, it doesn’t belong to Kalashnikov at all, all the mechanisms and units were developed before him, he only assembled them into a single complex, all that.
    You did not answer the main question, why did the regression occur in television in the USSR? Another failure, like everywhere else.
    1. +1
      21 January 2017 16: 54
      Quote: veteran66
      you again with your verbiage are trying to take the conversation away

      Lying.
      You started talking about television and Zvorykin, it’s not clear what a fright, and at the same time, as usual, LIEED - and I poked you * with your face * with your face, as usual. laughing

      It was a question of the fact that the INDUSTRY of the tsarist Russian empire was VERY backward compared to the developed countries of its day, and the USSR was able to quickly overcome this lag.
      And here you are not able to find a single fact, as usual, to confirm your delirium.

      By the way, the Bolsheviks did not expel Zvorykin, but quite the opposite: he stayed in the USA in 1919. after the defeat of Kolchak, and in the 30s he repeatedly visited the USSR during a tour of Europe. And you tried to attach it to the industrial achievements of tsarist Russia, although his invention was made in 1931 laughing
    2. +1
      21 January 2017 17: 05
      Quote: veteran66
      The AK about which you sang here does not belong to Kalashnikov at all, all the mechanisms and units were developed before him, he only assembled them into a single complex, all that.

      Have you already been transferred to the one with the carbine chamber? laughing

      That way, the T-34 is also assembled from assemblies and mechanisms that were before it, and about ANY other device the same can be said. And, by the way, the "Muromets" you praise are also made of previously existing units, and their motors are completely foreign lol

      However, it is the successful connection of nodes and mechanisms into a normally working device that is the achievement of the designer (I explain for mentally alternative people who have no idea about the design work).

      And about AK - I sympathize with your habit of picking up all the rotten stuff and poisoning it on Internet dumps.

      Here is a competent article by a competent specialist, Maxim Popenker, author of many popular and respected books on small arms:
      http://mpopenker.livejournal.com/1850980.html
      not so much for my regular readers, but for distribution as a link during the next seasonal exacerbations :)
      So, AK Kalashnikov assault rifle and Schmeiser stormtrooper. What are their relationships?

      usually the most short-sighted begin a discussion about the strong external similarities between AK and Stg. 44. What. in general, it’s not surprising - the purpose of the weapon is one, the era is also one, the layout, by virtue of the decisions made and the purpose, is also similar. But just now this arrangement did not begin with the storm trooper, Schmeiser was not a pioneer here.

      Etc. Read, enlighten, if you have enough * intelligence * laughing
      But something tells me that's not enough lol and you continue to repeat the ravings of * alternatively gifted *, like the sofa dreamer many times and deservedly banned here laughing laughing laughing
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          21 January 2017 19: 43
          Quote: veteran66
          Quote: murriou
          Etc. Read, enlighten, if your * intellect * is enough

          Do you have a fuss today or are you still raving? Or maybe you read badly? So you try to read again, only carefully and then you will understand what nonsense you wrote here. Yes, I remind you that you need to read not yourself, your beloved, but carefully read the posts you answer and you will be happy.

          Yes, and during the break between reading other people's posts, tell me about the breakthrough in color television broadcasting in the USSR, otherwise you somehow forgot.

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