Pistols of the Hungarian gunsmith Rudolf von Frommer (part 3)

18
This article focuses on the “kids” designer Rudolf Frommer, that is, pocket pistols. These small-sized pistols have always been in demand not only among civilians for self-defense, but also among the military: for wearing off-line and as weapons last chance.

It is worth noting that in Europe and the United States pocket pistols differ in size. For example, in the USA for almost 100 years, the .45 ACP cartridge was particularly popular as a self-defense ammunition. Therefore, the dimensions of the weapon, designed for this cartridge, differ in a big way. In the US, samples such as Walther PPK or PM are considered pocket weapons (compact), and in Europe - official ones. In the US, weapons of smaller dimensions than PPK or PM belong to the subcompact form factor.



Frommer Stop Baby

From the previous part of my article you have learned history Frommer Stop pistol, which was adopted by the Hungarian army as a service weapon. For that time it was the advanced weapon in which original design decisions were applied. In addition, Frommer Stop had unique recognizable lines and gained a reputation as a convenient and reliable pistol.

But something I left unsolved and reserved for today's story. The fact is that Frommer Stop, although it was adopted in the 1912 year, but it was made, starting with the 1910 year. Hungaria’s Hungaria weapons resource has the following data by model year and serial number: in 1910, the range of serial numbers from 1,000 to 3,000 was highlighted; 1911 year: 3,000 - 6,000; 1912 year: 6,000-12,000.

At the same plant in Budapest, Frommer Year Baby began to produce the gun from 1912. It was a smaller version of Frommer Stop, intended for the civilian market. Frommer Baby was positioned as a weapon for everyday hidden carrying in a pocket of trousers, a jacket or in a handbag. From Frommer Stop, he was distinguished by a shortened barrel and a reduced store capacity. Automatics worked identically, that is, recoil was used during the long course of the barrel and its locking with a butterfly valve. I believe that for a small-sized pistol chambered for 7,65 and 9 mm (although with a larger amount of gunpowder) such a scheme was clearly redundant. In addition, it complicated the design and increased the cost of production.


Pistols Frommer Stop and Frommer Baby, right side view.


Pistols of the Hungarian gunsmith Rudolf von Frommer (part 3)

Pistols Frommer Stop and Baby, left view. Pay attention to the monograms cut on the cheeks of the arms. The abbreviation FB stands for Frommer Baby, and FS stands for Frommer Stop.


Both models have a high level of unification of parts. Many parts are interchangeable with the exception of trunks, magazines, overlays on handles, fuse keys and spring blocks. And such details as the trigger, bolt and bolt head, trigger and striker, shop latch and other parts were absolutely identical, which reduced the cost of producing baby.


Gun Frommer Baby, incomplete disassembly.



Gun Frommer Baby, complete disassembly.


Frommer Baby began to produce chambered for 7,65x17mm Frommer Long, then buyers were offered a gun for Frommer's 9-mm cartridge. Frommer's cartridges were very close in geometry with Browning's .32 ACP and .380 ACP cartridges, but the charge of gunpowder in Hungarian cartridges was increased (loaded hot).


Frommer Baby chambered for 7,65 mm.



Frommer Baby chambered for 9 mm.


It would be logical to assume that the Frommer Baby pistol was developed on the basis of a larger Frommer Stop, but in fact everything is just the opposite. In different countries, both pistols are protected by the same patent: in Austria-Hungary (Vienna) under the number 58857, and in Britain - under the number 10566-1912. Both patents describe the construction of a self-loading pistol, which contains a block of 2-x springs in the barrel channel.


British gun scheme issued to Frommer in 1912 year.


As you can see, the drawing shows a small-sized gun. I would even say that this is a subcompact form factor (according to state classification). That is, judging by the drawings, Rudolf Frommer initially conceived a pocket pistol, but due to troubled times and the impending war, he developed a scaled version (service pistol) for the army and law enforcement agencies.

The start of production Frommer Baby coincided with the beginning of the 1-th World. It was produced to its end (1918 year). Frommer Babie’s production was then resumed at 1919, and the pistol was produced throughout 10 years, until 1929. Judging by the library of serial numbers - Frommer Baby was produced in large quantities, as was in great demand. During its production (1912 - 1929), a range of serial numbers from 6,000 to 364,000 was allocated.


Announcement from the Hungarian newspaper for 1914 year.


Free translation of the text: Put the military pistol in the vest pocket (Introducing the military rifle in a vest pocket). The gun Frommer Baby chambered for 7,65 and 9 mm. Large-caliber 6-charging vest gun with a locking mechanism of the barrel, like military samples. Produced in Fegyver- és Gépgyár, Budapest. Available in all gun shops.

I believe that the expression “vest pocket” should have been associated with John Browning’s pocket pistol, developed by him in 1905. For the American market, it was produced by a Colt company called the Colt Model 1908 Vest Pocket.

By the way, in the same year 1908 Louis Schmeisser developed a pocket (waistcoat) pistol. Like the 1907 model of the year, it was named after the German gunsmith Johann Dreyze. Schmeisser’s vest gun became known as the Dreyse 6,35 mm Vest Pocket Pistol.


Frommer Baby in the ad store Skaba and Plökl the same years.


Free translation of the text: Never go on a long journey unarmed. Automatic pistols for self-defense. Skaba and Plökl, Budapest. Boulevard of Emperor Wilhelm, 33.
By the way, this store has functioned until the 1944 year. During the Budapest operation, it ceased to exist.

The weapon turned out compact and easy, suitable for hidden carrying. But the name of the pistol speaks for itself: it was convenient for him to lie only in the hand of a child or an elegant ladies' pen.


Notice how uncomfortable it is to hold a weapon in a large male hand.


Since the gun Frommer Baby produced in large quantities, then he came to our days in large quantities. Therefore, the price of baby is quite affordable for lovers of weapons. For example, at the GunAuction.com auction, a sample chambered for 7,65 mm cartridges with a defect in one of the handle cheeks was sold for $ 330.


Pistol Frommer Baby. Judging by the serial number - 1918 year. Photos from GunAuction.com





Pay attention to the sealed overlay on the handle. Photos from GunAuction.com


Frommer liliput

Before the end of the First World War, Rudolf Frommer worked on the creation of another pistol, more compact than Frommer Baby. As a result, the designer filed an application in Hungary, and February 27 1917 received a patent for an improved automatic for the gun. In the United States, a patent application was filed on 23 on August 1921 of the year; the patent 25 was published on November 1924 under the number US1516835 A.


Scheme of new automation from the US patent.


The drawing is a diagram of another small-sized pistol, but also with a moving barrel and also with a return spring placed above the barrel. Unlike Stop and Baby models, the new model lacked a second (buffer) spring. Perhaps she did not meet expectations, and perhaps in this way the designer tried to reduce the overall dimensions and weight of the weapon. But in the mass production of this gun did not go. But the patented USM moved to the next model of the gun, already with a free gate and a fixed barrel.

A new application was filed and another patent for 2 was received; utility models for handguns: with an open trigger (type 1) and with its hidden location (type 2). Below are the drawings from a later patent published in the US 25 August 1921 of the year.


Drawings on Frommer's gun with an open trigger (type 1).





Drawings on a Frommer pistol with a closed trigger (type 2). Pay attention to fig. No. 14.


In the description of the drawings it is said that taking into account the preferences of users, it is possible to produce weapons of two different types: with both hidden and open trigger. The design provides for such changes. But a version of the mechanism with an open trigger, without the back part of the casing (Fig. 14) went into the series.

In the new model of the pistol, the designer provided for a slide latch, which was not on his earlier pistols. In the first installments of the new Liliput pistols, the shut-off mechanism was implemented as a sliding-type button. She moved in a vertical plane (up and down), and to release the shutter, you had to push the button with your thumb down. * On later models of Liliput pistols, they began to install a more common lever lever type. To turn off the delay, it was necessary to scroll the flag with the thumb with the “away from you” movement.
* By the way, at the Borchardt K93 pistol the sliding button turned on and off the fuse.



In the photo on the left - a sliding shutter delay button, on the right - a flag.


The new gun really turned out to be smaller and lighter than its predecessor Baby. From him, he inherited a virtually identical automatic fuse: the others in the weapon is not provided. The magazine latch was also located at the base of the handle. Aim devices are open, unregulated and barely noticeable: small front sight and rear sight. The supply was carried out from detachable 1-row stores on 6 cartridges. Of the features, you can highlight the ability to fire 5,6-mm .22 LR cartridges. For this it was necessary to replace the barrel and the store (bought separately).


Frommer liliput pistol magazine latch.


In the standard delivery, the gun was completed with overlays for ebonite handles with the monogram “FL” - Frommer Liliput. As an option, you could order a pistol with simple wooden lining or mother-of-pearl handles.


Frommer Liliput pistol with FL corporate monogram on ebonite handles.





Frommer Liliput pistol with simple wooden handles.



Frommer Liliput pistol with the rider's emblem on the handle. The rider was used in an advertisement for Frommer's 1910 gun of the year.





The rider in a sombrero and with a Frommer 1910 gun of the year in his raised hand. Frommer M1910 user manual cover.


All Hungarian weapons were tested at the test station with multi-stage tests (the law on firing weapons). Passed them and Frommer Liliput pistols. After they were shot off, a round stamp with the letters “FN” - Fust Nelkuli (smokeless) and BP - Budapest was applied on the pistol frame with smokeless powder. Above the letters stood the crown of St. Stephen (one of the symbols of the Hungarian state).


Stamp with the crown of St. Stephen in a circle (one option).


Sometimes, instead of a stamp with a crown, Frommer Liliput had a stamp on the frame of the pistol with the same rider with a sombrero.


Stamp with the rider next to the gate stop flag.


The Frommer Liliput Tropical model was produced in limited quantities in a nickel-plated case and with stainless steel mechanisms.


Nickel Plated Frommer Liliput Tropical.


For “Liliput guns” could be purchased and holster. I do not know how comfortable it was or justified. Perhaps, the holster was bought and worn only in order not to tear off his pockets in a week or two of wearing.





But the Frommer Liliput pistol was so compact and light that it could be carried covertly, not only in the handbag, but even in the elements of the ladies' toilet.



It is said that Frommer’s small-sized pistol was designed with an eye on John Browning’s M1905 / M1906 vest gun, under his own 6,35-mm cartridge (.25 ACP). Perhaps, under the influence of the M1905, Frommer revised the layout of his pistol and abandoned the complex, cumbersome and expensive automation with a long barrel stroke.

And in 1921, Frommer’s new vest pistol went on sale. I offered it including the Skaba and Plökl store that you already know, in Budapest. Remember: he sold weapons until the arrival of the Red Army in 44.



Like now, 100 years ago, weapons were sold on the basis of a weapon purchase permit.


Permission to purchase a single pocket pistol. Hungary, 1922 year.



Bill of Sale (Bill Of Sale) on Frommer Liliput's gun with 401950 serial number. Budapest, 1922 year.



Frommer Liliput pistol in the original packaging. The owner covered the serial, but judging by the first figures - it was produced in 1923 year.







Original packaging for Frommer's 6,35-mm cartridges.


Frommer Liliput was quite a popular pistol in Europe. It was produced from 1919 to 1939 years, and over the years 18 35 units were released. Some of them were sold abroad in the United States. Initially, the pistols from export lots did not differ from the products for the European market. Later on the caps-closures pistols for export was added marking of the patent and the country of origin.


Export gun. Note the markings “Patent is applicable in the USA” and “Made in Hungary”.


Comparison table with TTX pistols Frommer Stop, Baby and Liliput.



Like its predecessor, Frommer Baby - the Frommer Liliput pistol also served as the basis for creating a more overall (service) pistol. But that's another story.

To be continued ...

Information sources:
https://patents.google.com/?assignee=Rudolf+Von+Frommer
http://www.hungariae.com/FromLili.htm
http://weaponland.ru/load/pistolet_frommer_baby/106-1-0-560
http://www.gundata.ru/pistolet_frommer_baby.htm
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8152500
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Frommer/FS007/fs007.html
http://getwar.ru/vengerskijj-pistolet-frommer-liliput.html
http://weaponland.ru/load/pistolet_frommer_liliput/113-1-0-562
http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com/topic/18500#.WGU7YbmdeOu
http://otvaga.net/frommer-liliput
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_M1906
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_M1905
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Model_1908_Vest_Pocket
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/115/1368294.html
http://antik.vatera.hu/fegyver_militaria/lofegyver/1923_as_frommer_liliput_6_35_mm_es_ontolto_pisztoly_2374473254.html
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10024904
http://gunproofmarks.ru/index.php?marks&hungary
Overview of Frommer Stop and Baby Stop pistols



Shooting Frommer Stop Baby chambered for .32 ACP



Shooting Frommer Lilliput

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18 comments
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  1. cap
    +5
    10 January 2017 16: 45
    Interesting. Author of credit. We are waiting for more. hi
    1. +3
      10 January 2017 16: 51
      Quote: cap
      Interesting. Author of credit. We are waiting for more.

      hi Thank you, Kep! I'm already writing a sequel wink
    2. avt
      +6
      10 January 2017 17: 38
      Quote: cap
      Interesting. Author of credit. We are waiting for more.

      Similarly good Cool sample, but Browning is better. bully
      1. +2
        11 January 2017 11: 32
        Quote: avt
        Cool sample, but Browning is better.

        I do not argue, because it turns out that Frommer largely equaled Browning. Yes, and Browning sold around the world in a millionth series.
        Has anyone noticed that in Hungary they developed and mass-produced compact pistols, but not in the Russian Empire?
  2. +4
    10 January 2017 16: 55
    Thanks! Interesting! Before that, I met only general data and the appearance of weapons. In particular Zhuk.A.B. "Pistols and revolvers."
    1. +3
      11 January 2017 00: 26
      Quote: Amurets
      Thank! Interesting!

      hi You are welcome! It was interesting to work on the article itself.
      Quote: Amurets
      Before that, I met only general data and the appearance of weapons. In particular Zhuk.A.B. "Pistols and revolvers."

      No more than “Pistols of the World”. Authors: Ian Hogg and John Walter.
  3. +3
    10 January 2017 17: 06
    Michael, as always your creativity is at the proper level! good But still it would be interesting to read about the Moldovan weapons legislation, the range in stores and usage statistics. Serezha has two trunks in the safe, I sometimes shoot bottles myself.
    1. +3
      10 January 2017 19: 36
      Quote: zyablik.olga
      Michael, as always your creativity is at the proper level!

      hi Thank you!
      Quote: zyablik.olga
      it would be interesting to read about the Moldovan arms legislation

      Already included in the plans for the future. I will finish the conceived themes and take up the arms market of Moldova.
      Quote: zyablik.olga
      sometimes I shoot bottles myself.

      Great! Once upon a time I watched a movie about Nemtsov. Gave interview and his wife. She told me that she loved weapons and even pregnant at 7 month she shot from Kalash. Even the video was shown from the shooting range.
  4. 0
    10 January 2017 17: 43
    in my opinion, the L-shape is absolutely not important for the weapon of "last chance". Those. either a primitive single charge, or an "anatomical cigarette case" with a built-in silencer
    1. 0
      10 January 2017 18: 39
      silencer then why? An attacking corpse of an attacker will work like a silencer ... shoot from 0,25 only at point blank range
      1. 0
        10 January 2017 18: 45
        well, how would you be right, although, on the other hand, the place in the form factor, anyway, remains and there is a choice between cigarettes and a silencer
    2. +3
      10 January 2017 19: 31
      Quote: pimen
      for the weapon of "last chance" the L-shape is absolutely not important.

      Weapon last chance - a matter of taste and personal preferences. It can be a compact Glock and a small revolver, and the 4-barrel COP .357 Derringer.
      1. +2
        10 January 2017 19: 49
        I don't argue, I just see it in the form of a double-edged blade of a stiletto, cm by 10, and a single-barrel, probably for an automatic cartridge, somehow "shaped" under the brush
        1. +3
          10 January 2017 20: 15
          Quote: pimen
          I see it in the form of a double-edged blade of a stiletto, 10 cm, and a single-barrel, probably chambered for a submachine gun, somehow "shaped" under the brush

          Straight arsenal for the assassin wink
        2. +4
          10 January 2017 23: 01
          The weapon of last chance is your head. If it is not there, then at least a nuclear-pumped combat laser implant in the ass - it will not help.
  5. 0
    11 January 2017 08: 46
    Pistols of the "dangerous toys" class, you can only safely shoot yourself.
    But the article itself is very high quality, interesting and informative.
    Say permission to purchase and the act of purchase - rare historical documents.
    Waiting for more.
    1. 0
      11 January 2017 11: 21
      hi
      Quote: Niccola Mack
      Pistols of the "dangerous toys" class, you can only safely shoot yourself.

      I believe that Lilliputian as a "lady" or "salon" weapon is a very effective weapon for self-defense at ultra-short distances.
      Quote: Nikkola Mac
      The article is very high quality, interesting and informative.

      Thank you!
      Quote: Nikkola Mac
      permission to purchase and the act of purchase - rare historical documents.

      And I doubted: to include them in the review or not. It is written after all in Nenashen ...
      Quote: Nikkola Mac
      Waiting for more.

      A week or two will continue.
  6. 0
    11 January 2017 15: 17
    Good article and topic.

    It should be noted the following. No exact classification, compact, subcompact. All these definitions are subjective. In the USA, PM will not be called compact. There are just a lot of models of real compacts on the market. And PM, in comparison, will be too big.

    A feature of compacts is also that the second store is elongated. And then the pistol grip can already be fully covered. Pocket pistol surveyors still recommend carrying a spare store with them. Although this issue is controversial.

    Another interesting topic is holsters for pistols. Holster, it’s also the protection of guns from pollution. And a very strong need for comfortable wearing. And as a factor in masking pistols in the folds of clothes and as a factor in quick extraction, or vice versa, facilitating wearing, but complicating the extraction. Here you can argue for a very long time and finding a middle ground is difficult.

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