Military Review

The Observer: Trump needs to do away with the unpromising F-35

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The F-35 fighter has become one of the biggest failures in stories aviation US industry, and the new president will need to put an end to this "unpromising" program, said The National Review columnist, engineer Mike Fredenburg.


The Observer: Trump needs to do away with the unpromising F-35


“In F-35, nothing can be fixed. Serious engineering errors were made at the design stage of the aircraft, and this kind of “flaws” cannot be corrected, ”the author writes.

Fredenburg points to the irrational approach of the designers of the company “Lockheed-Martin” to the task of reducing the weight of the aircraft. According to him, “the developers have facilitated the F-35 by dismantling the necessary weapons and simplifying the flight safety system,” and “eventually, the prospective fighter will have to avoid collision with the enemy and carry out combat missions accompanied by other aircraft.”

In addition, the browser claims, "F-35 structural elements made of a special aluminum alloy simply do not withstand high overloads." Also a serious problem is the "unstable operation of the propulsion system and the constant malfunction in the cooling system."

“It's time to face the truth: due to the fatal mistakes made during the design of the 20 aircraft years ago, the F-35 will always suffer from" weight problems "and overheating. Thus, under this program, we will never get a reliable, low-cost aircraft ", - the author writes.

To sum up, Fredenburg calls upon Donald Trump to abandon the unprofitable program and “save American taxpayers' money from an unpromising project,” which cost reached $ 1,5 trillion.
Photos used:
theaviationist.com
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  1. Nevsky_ZU
    Nevsky_ZU 7 January 2017 09: 27
    +42
    Now friends from Israel will catch up and say that their F-35, thanks to Jewish firmware and software, work better, including the design features of the engine, alloys and the design as a whole)) fellow And only "bast shoes" Russia has been conducting flight tests of the T-50 for almost 10 years, carrying out some kind of load on the glider, endless bench tests. Another thing is the iron, the flight of which and the aerodynamics are constantly adjusted by the computer. And in general, why the Russians, using the principle of "open architecture", carry on-board computers and systems separately on the panel, and not like Americans into a single computer, which then fails from working simultaneously in 10 applications)) laughing Wow, these Russians, probably on the T-50 will also duplicate the analog panel? wassat
    1. OLD FART
      OLD FART 7 January 2017 09: 33
      +15
      Quote: Nevsky_ZU
      Now friends from Israel will catch up and say that their F-35s, thanks to Jewish firmware and software, work better, including the design features of the engine,

      Surely ...! It’s better to immediately agree with them, they’re horrible, touchy ... bully
      1. rasputin17
        rasputin17 7 January 2017 09: 51
        +7
        Quote: STARPER
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        Now friends from Israel will catch up and say that their F-35s, thanks to Jewish firmware and software, work better, including the design features of the engine,

        Surely ...! It’s better to immediately agree with them, they’re horrible, touchy ... bully

        I remember a couple of weeks there was already an article and they unanimously reiterated that under it they had a new avionics engine reconstruction program and a bunch of other lotions, including upgraded weapons !!! There is only one question: Why all this ?? Is he already unreasonably expensive and invest in it unmeasured money ??? As in the old adage - why the priest button accordion when he has a censer! ??? request
        1. bouncyhunter
          bouncyhunter 7 January 2017 10: 38
          +8
          Colleagues ! Well, what did you attack the Fu-35? An excellent child prodigy, which allowed to cut harrorooshie grandmother and to enth ent ent vech partners. Mattresses are shaking that Trump will cover such a feeding trough ... lol
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. just exp
              just exp 8 January 2017 05: 37
              +2
              What if the neighbors are Russians?
              and then you are trying to prove that the Jews are supermen against whom a living person is powerless (only zombies can do something), but the point is not in the Jews, but in the Arabs. these monkeys, whatever you give, they will fail and fall apart. this is when it was necessary to wave sabers and ride a horde, yes there, there they are warriors. and everything that is more difficult than drafts for the Arab is already a hard science. and they are so-so warriors.
              already wrote more than once how they threw entire tanks when the Jews simply threw a lemon on their armor. it’s Russian Vanka, from a burning tank or infantry fighting vehicle to the last he shoots back, and Mahmed smart, like something was banging somewhere, Mahmed put into shirts and bushes. because Vanka is dead, and Mahmed travels to the European cities in gold and tells how he is all man from himself.
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 21 January 2017 00: 46
                +1
                Russian "Vanka" of the 40s and now are not the same thing, don't you think? Then there was a different motivation (the threat of genocide, the state acted in the interests of the majority of the people, a different upbringing, social elevators). And today? Incomes of the population are falling (a consequence of the deindustrialization of the last 25 years), social programs are being cut, "enemies of the people" are not imprisoned (remember Serdyukov and Co.), friends and relatives of one person are $ billionaires (what does Stalin have there?) ... Burn in a tank (preferring opportunities run away) will have to do it all. And for the Rotenberg brothers too.
                1. Cat man null
                  Cat man null 21 January 2017 00: 54
                  0
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  ... fall, ... cut, do not plant ... Serdyukov ... Rotenberg

                  - a bit thick, don't you find? wink

                  Quote: 3danimal
                  Burn in the tank (preferring to escape) ...

                  - but to you crap ... run away yourself, the air will be cleaner
                  - and the concept of "Homeland" has not yet been canceled, and all the Rottenberg brothers are walking through the forest yes
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 3 March 2017 22: 10
                    0
                    Yeah, at that time they will walk in their forest around a 3-storey cottage. Making fun of such patriots who lay their heads for the invariability of their status .. Well, are you personally ready, I hope?
        2. Sotskiy
          Sotskiy 7 January 2017 12: 45
          +1
          Quote: rasputin17
          I remember a couple of weeks there was already an article and they unanimously reiterated that under it they had a new avionics engine reconstruction program and a bunch of other lotions, including upgraded weapons !!! There is only one question: Why all this ?? Is he already unreasonably expensive and invest in it unmeasured money ??? As in the old adage - why the priest button accordion when he has a censer! ???

          In Soviet times, the people scolded about civilian domestic products: "Instructions for use - finalize with an ax." Along the way, our American and Israeli "friends" took and introduced this saying into the operating instructions for their "push-pull"lol
      2. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 7 January 2017 09: 56
        +6
        Quote: STARPER

        Surely ...! It’s better to immediately agree with them, they’re horrible, touchy ... bully

        Come on. It is easy to argue with us and you can refer to some kind of browser of the yellow leaf. Argue with them.
        Retired USMC General James Mattis, who was selected by US President-elect Donald Trump as future Secretary of Defense, said he would be "clearly committed to continuing the F-35 fighter program."
        This information was given to the newspaper Hartford Courant by a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee Richard Blumenthal. “I was encouraged by his clear commitment to this program and his understanding of the importance of the F-35 in maintaining American air supremacy and increasing it further,” the senator said.
        Speculation about the future of this program began after Trump's famous tweet, which was interpreted by some observers as the beginning of the end of the F-35. However, it became clear now that Trump was simply trying to lower the cost of this program by requiring the plane to be cheaper than it is now. The program supports more than 151 thousand jobs in the United States and tens of thousands around the world.
        The President-elect released the following message: "It was just a dance. But we're really going to get a lower price."
        1. Arh
          Arh 7 January 2017 10: 10
          +7
          but in my deck let them wear this suitcase without a handle))))
      3. rasputin17
        rasputin17 7 January 2017 10: 10
        +6
        voyaka uh November 28, 2016 11:54 ↑
        "Why" bring to mind "? They will not fight on them." ///
        We do not have equipment on which they are not fighting. Moreover, it is customary to start fighting immediately
        after adoption. So it was with the latest F-16s, Apache, Merkava.
        All teams of technicians, engineers, pilots have been mastering a couple of months
        first two planes in the USA. So they will quickly be put into operation.


        And this is what our Jewish friends would not consider us unfounded now! What they didn’t say !!! What they are misunderstood !! I have much more on that topic I can throw them out of what they said !!! hi
        1. Smog
          Smog 7 January 2017 10: 24
          +8
          I have much more on that topic I can throw them out of what they said !!!
          And you need it. All the same, they will be converted in flight. Natura s.
          1. rasputin17
            rasputin17 7 January 2017 10: 28
            +1
            Yes, I do not need it! Just one more time to see how they easily abandon their own words spoken here in public! laughing
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 7 January 2017 10: 29
          +10
          I "subscribe" to what I said. In a month, our first 2 planes will make
          real sorties with real weapons. By the end of the year we will have a squadron.
          F-35 go ​​off the assembly line, like pies, 5 pieces a month.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 7 January 2017 10: 55
            +9
            Quote: voyaka uh
            F-35 go ​​off the assembly line, like pies

            Yes, no one argues with this. The question is different - what is the use of them? I don’t remember reading anything positive, and from the pilots who flew at them.
            1. Aaron Zawi
              Aaron Zawi 7 January 2017 11: 13
              +1
              Quote: Dart2027
              Quote: voyaka uh
              F-35 go ​​off the assembly line, like pies

              Yes, no one argues with this. The question is different - what is the use of them? I don’t remember reading anything positive, and from the pilots who flew at them.

              They read poorly.
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 7 January 2017 11: 53
              +3

              "read something positive, and from the pilots who flew them." /////

              Several times we posted a survey of pilots of different fighters who had transferred to the F-35: "What do you prefer him or your previous plane?" More than 80% preferred the F-35.
              The survey was based on 6-7 criteria: long-range combat, melee, turn, etc.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 7 January 2017 13: 44
                +1
                Perhaps I did not specifically seek out this topic, but several times I came across publications and they did not praise him at all.
                1. stoker
                  stoker 7 January 2017 14: 42
                  +4
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Perhaps I did not specifically seek out this topic, but several times I came across publications and they did not praise him at all.


                  Who are you arguing with? Well, frank nonsense.
                  “The survey was based on 6-7 criteria: long-range combat, melee, turn, etc.”
                  Where and by whom? There are either 6 or 7 criteria in a survey.
                  6,5 never happens. By the way, only three are named. And already from them it is clear - nonsense is said. Well, what kind of melee does this iron have, what kind of turn?

                  And on the other hand, what can the Jews do if no one else gives a freebie? But to steal is not possible. Eat r ... yes praise.
                  A graphic illustration of the Russian proverb - for free and sweet vinegar.
                  1. HAPA
                    HAPA 7 January 2017 16: 37
                    +5
                    Quote: stoker
                    Who are you arguing with? Well, frank nonsense.
                    “The survey was based on 6-7 criteria: long-range combat, melee, turn, etc.”

                    Yes? and you have no breche?
                    Thirty-one experienced pilots currently flying the F-35A were asked to evaluate the energy and maneuverability of their previous fourth-generation fighters in combat configuration across the entire range of dogfight maneuvers after dropping all their external suspensions. Then they were asked to evaluate the characteristics of the F-35A, using the same scale, with fuel and internal ammunition loading, with combat load, with its current maximum overload and restrictions on the use of weapons. F-35A well stood comparison with four other fighters (F-15C, F-15E, F-16C and a-10) in almost every mode.
                    Each pilot was then asked to choose which fighter he would prefer to fly in battle if his clone flying on another plane in six different air-to-air situations was the enemy. (See diagram 1.) If a pilot chose the F-15C in a short-range situation, for example, he felt that he could surpass the equal-ability pilot on the F-35A. Pilots chose the F-35A in 100% of cases in situations outside of visual visibility and more than 80% in dogfight situations, when energy and maneuverability are critical to success.
                    Instantaneous turn - forced turn (with max. Overload and loss of speed)
                    Sustained turn rate
                    Responsiveness at slow speed - low speed handling
                    Stack / scissors performance - characteristics of vertical and horizontal maneuvers
                    Ability to recover airspeed - ability to recover speed
                    BVR - Out of Visibility
                    9K 'Perch setup - starting position: traverse, attacker’s height plus 1830 meters, distance 3700 m, speed 740 km / h, it starts with an excess of 2600 m and speed 556 km / h
                    Butterfly - see picture: http://images.slideplayer.com/24/709...es/slide_7
                    .jpg
                    Short range - short range
                    Tree / vertical fight - vertical battle
                    To the bottom diagram, here is a link on the terminology of maneuvers:
                    https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/do...ubs/P-1289
                    . Pdf
                    The F-35A was not designed to be an air superiority fighter, but the pilots interviewed painted a picture of a fighter that allows for more than just staying in that environment, even with its current G-and maneuverable restrictions. According to a graduate of the F-16C weapons school and an instructor pilot on the F-35A at the present time, “even before reaching initial operational readiness, this fighter exceeded the pilot's expectations with a dissimilar combat capability. There are overload restrictions, but even though the angular rate of turn incredible at a constant 28 degrees / sec. When they lift the Closed Launcher Assault Weapon (CLAW) and remove the G-Restrictions, this fighter will show much more than one would expect. "
                    1. stoker
                      stoker 8 January 2017 00: 46
                      +3
                      Quote: HAPA
                      Quote: stoker
                      Who are you arguing with? Well, frank nonsense.
                      “The survey was based on 6-7 criteria: long-range combat, melee, turn, etc.”

                      Yes? and you have no breche?


                      You know, no.

                      I will say right away - feelings, preferences, comfort, etc. "objective" assessments of American (!) pilots are not very interesting to me personally. Let their superiors, wives and psychoanalysts worry about it.

                      When one and a half trillion dollars have been spent, it will not be difficult, having spent an additional ten or two million, to find those who will assure that the required result has been achieved. According to their "feelings".

                      Real air combat is not a public boast, a computer shooter, or brandishing leaflets.
                      There is only one criterion of truth - practice. That is a fight.

                      Real international aerial combat training. The Indians on our planes endure the entire American and European "fourth generation". Everything. Practically one gate. It is a fact. Despite thousands of tons of promotional items.

                      It is a fact that the Americans are diligently evading the participation of the F-35 in such battles. There are apparently good reasons for this.

                      However, something is leaking. For example, Australian testing in 2008 showed that the F-30 has few chances against the SU-35, to put it mildly. So few that they simply could not be found.

                      There were training fights with the F-16. Rumored to be extremely unfortunate for the F-35. With the very F-16s that the Indians endured.

                      There was a widespread desire to conduct battles with Russian planes. But here, apparently, the grenades turned out to be of the wrong system, and the American A-4 attack aircraft of the mid-50s of the last century was declared as "Russian". Let's not argue with the Americans. Who, if not them, know the real potential of the F-35.

                      From the real, that's all.
                    2. just exp
                      just exp 8 January 2017 05: 41
                      +1
                      oh storyteller, I see you like to sway around the forums and tell all Russian Aborigines about cool American weapons, so that Russian Aborigines are afraid of the black monkey, which will already be replaced by white Mr. Trump.
                    3. KKND
                      KKND 9 January 2017 19: 15
                      +2
                      Quote: HAPA
                      There are overload limits, but even so, the turning rate is incredible at a constant 28 degrees / sec. When they remove the Closed Launcher Assault Weapon (CLAW) and remove the G-Restrictions, this fighter will show much more than one would expect. "

                      Do not use what you do not understand. Near to 28 degrees per second, there must be a turning speed. This is the only way to calculate the radius of the reversal loop, and at the same time the overload with an accuracy of + 1G. The angular velocity itself can be with a circle of 1 meter radius, or maybe with a radius of a kilometer for you to understand. And when the so-called G restrictions are removed, what will he begin to maneuver with an overload of 40 G?
          2. stoker
            stoker 7 January 2017 12: 18
            +10
            Quote: voyaka uh
            I "subscribe" to what I said ...

            Eh, "warrior" ... Some say "I am responsible for what I did", others - "I" subscribe "to what I said ..". What do you have to do with this? Your "signature" in this matter is not worth the electricity spent on it. These "two" will be in Israel only if the Americans deign to make this donation to professional beggars. Not to mention the squadron.


            Quote: voyaka uh
            ... In a month, our first 2 planes will do
            real sorties with real weapons ...

            This is where you are going to fly, "bats"? You will fly somewhere only with American permission. And under our supervision. Now - just like that.

            Quote: voyaka uh
            ... F-35 go ​​off the assembly line, like pies, 5 pieces a month.

            If you make pies “5 pieces a month,” the pizza maker himself will die of starvation.

            How delightful Jewish blah blah.
          3. cosmos111
            cosmos111 7 January 2017 12: 55
            +1
            The first two F-35 jets en route to Israel.
          4. Awaz
            Awaz 7 January 2017 13: 46
            0
            I’m all curious, what kind of weapon do you really have now for the 35th American plane? and how interesting are the Israelites about to fly and whom to bomb? And if the Russians over Syria created a poorly poorly good air defense line? Well, of course, it’s unlikely that you will be able to shoot down (it’s a pity the brand new plane, after all) But besides this, there are moments that are interesting to Russian air defense. I don’t know, I don’t know whether the Jews are unlikely to risk flying somewhere, if only through the peaceful cities of Palestine ...
            1. HAPA
              HAPA 7 January 2017 16: 39
              +3
              Quote: AwaZ
              I’m all curious, what kind of weapon do you really have now for the 35th American plane? and

          5. sharp-lad
            sharp-lad 7 January 2017 22: 52
            0
            Dear, if you bake pies for five pieces a month, then it should be either a handful or a baker on a diet and bake them only for yourself! wink And at the expense of "pies", well, so soon we'll see how "baked".
          6. Maz
            Maz 8 January 2017 01: 18
            +3
            Who are you soaping up with?
      4. The comment was deleted.
    2. vovanpain
      vovanpain 7 January 2017 09: 36
      +18
      The Observer: Trump needs to do away with the unpromising F-35

      In no case, stop It is necessary to test and once again test, spend and cut loot good And Trumpushka think about our FU-35 amateurs. Such kondraty will grab them. good
      1. cosmos111
        cosmos111 7 January 2017 13: 00
        +2
        Quote: vovanpain
        x "FU-35". Such kondraty will grab them.

        We will not have such aircraft for another 40-k for years (and this is an optimistic forecast).
        F-35 loading bombs with the engine running and in the IR range.

        1. VO3A
          VO3A 7 January 2017 14: 03
          +9
          And now in essence. I watched the first commercial and .... got sick, sorry for the slang. A bunch of pi_ndos worn with 3 rackets. It would be better if they did not show this circus.
          Technologically, all operations, even with the use of video editing, are very costly and not thought out and ineffective .... Finished at dusk, it is unclear how 8 minutes of the video lasted for half a day ...... I do not want to go into details, but from the point of view of operation it is complete paragraph, and this after F18? ... Before that, I spoke cautiously about F35 .... Requirements for qualification, provision and staffing are so great that they do not fit into sound logic ... Pyndosy of success to you in your senility ....
          1. VO3A
            VO3A 7 January 2017 14: 19
            +5
            I want to add, or rather, draw a conclusion. Not a single programmer, not a single sane pro can buy such a plane. Expenses during operation and to start this operation will significantly exceed the price of an already expensive miracle plane. He will stand or fly like a pretentious symbol without weapons and aimlessly, like an advertising demonstration for stupid townsfolk .... Successes ....... Too much payment for Atlantic solidarity ..... Forward .....
        2. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 14: 17
          +4
          Quote: cosmos111
          We will not have such aircraft for another 40-k for years (and this is an optimistic forecast).

          We will not have anything like that at all, they haven’t done anything outstanding.
          What parameters delight you so much: loading bombs in the IR range with the engine running, speed, specific fuel consumption?
          1. just exp
            just exp 8 January 2017 05: 48
            0
            you don’t have it, but we are already doing much better.
            This year, PAK FA is in the series.
            this is an airplane, the only competitor of which is only the Raptor, but the competitor is weaker.
        3. Skifotavr
          Skifotavr 7 January 2017 19: 25
          +8
          Quote: cosmos111
          We will not have such aircraft for another 40-k for years (and this is an optimistic forecast).

          God give it. God grant that Russia has such a shit * but never existed at all. lol
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 8 January 2017 10: 14
            +1
            You are not in a hurry to rejoice, we have another "shit" for 4 billion apiece, which also has problems with avionics and engines and the adoption of which into service has been postponed from year to year.
    3. Alex_Rarog
      Alex_Rarog 7 January 2017 09: 37
      +4
      Yes, at least here, at least at least do not shout if the mattresses themselves already say that the aircraft is Achtung! Its flaws can be used only by replacement with a new one)
    4. Mar.Tirah
      Mar.Tirah 7 January 2017 09: 41
      +7
      Kedmi has already answered for them! We understand that he is worse than the Russian MIGs, but they gave them to us FOR FREE. And you need to buy from Russia !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! True, the service will cost a billion, but it doesn’t trouble!
      1. SRC P-15
        SRC P-15 7 January 2017 09: 45
        +12
        To sum up, Fredenburg calls upon Donald Trump to abandon the unprofitable program and “save American taxpayers' money from an unpromising project,” which cost reached $ 1,5 trillion.

        Dear Trump, there is no need to rush: when the cost of the plane equals the cost of the US national debt, then this "unpromising project" can be closed!
        1. Aaron Zawi
          Aaron Zawi 7 January 2017 10: 04
          +2
          Quote: SRC P-15

          Dear Trump, there is no need to rush: when the cost of the plane equals the cost of the US national debt, then this "unpromising project" can be closed!

          Are you sincerely worried about the cost of the F-35? Well, you are not alone.
          Jeff Babione, Executive Vice President and CEO of Lockheed Martin's F-35 program, Jeff Babione, speaking at the welcoming ceremony for the first Israeli fighter of this type at Nevatim Base, Israel, said he would welcome any questions from President-elect Donald Trump about this program and discussions on this topic.
          According to him, the cost of one aircraft in 2019-2020 will fall to $ 85 million (without an engine), that is, it will become less than the price of any fourth-generation fighter in the world.
          In 2014, the U.S. Accounts Chamber predicted that the F-35 fighter fleet being adopted would have an operational cost of 79% more than the fleet of previous generation combat aircraft they replaced. It was believed that the cost of an hour of flight of a fighter version of the F-35A would be $ 32500 compared to $ 25500 for the F-16C / D, with the expectation that the F-35A would have an annual flight time of only 250 hours compared to 316 for the F-16C / D. In December 2015, these figures were revised - the cost of an hour of flight of the F-35A will be $ 29806, and the hour of the F-16C / D - $ 25541. The reduction in the cost of operating a fifth-generation fighter was achieved by reducing the price of JP-8 jet fuel and slowing the rate of fuel combustion in the engine of the F-35A fighter, as well as the use of more advanced hardware modifications. The cost of operating aircraft versions B and C is also reduced.
          According to Babillon, the popular criticism of the F-35 program as a "black hole worth $ 1 trillion" is a thing of the past, the price of one aircraft produced is reduced by the use of the latest manufacturing technologies. He stated that the total cost of production and operation has decreased by $ 60 billion.
          In relation to Great Britain, this program also has a great economic effect, playing the role of a "sucker of money into the national economy". At the peak of production, the program will generate £ 1 billion. a year, supporting 25 thousand jobs across the UK for several decades. "The price will be even cheaper if you understand when the investment we spend is returning back to our country," said Cliff Robson, Senior Vice President of F-35 Lightning II at BAE Systems.
          1. OLD FART
            OLD FART 7 January 2017 10: 19
            +5
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            Are you sincerely worried about the cost of the F-35? Well, you are not alone.

            I’m very worried, Aron, because they threw Israel for a lot of money ... You even changed the flag)))) Under the German expert, they are encrypted .. ????? bully
            1. Aaron Zawi
              Aaron Zawi 7 January 2017 11: 14
              +1
              Quote: STARPER
              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              Are you sincerely worried about the cost of the F-35? Well, you are not alone.

              I’m very worried, Aron, because they threw Israel for a lot of money ... You even changed the flag)))) Under the German expert, they are encrypted .. ????? bully

              Not the wife for a couple of days in Munich chatted to fly. Tomorrow evening I'll be home already.
              1. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 14: 19
                +5
                Quote: Aron Zaavi
                Not the wife for a couple of days in Munich chatted to fly.

                Are you missing the Arabs?
      2. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 7 January 2017 10: 02
        0
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        Kedmi has already answered for them! We understand that he is worse than the Russian MIGs, but they gave them to us FOR FREE. And you need to buy from Russia !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! True, the service will cost a billion, but it doesn’t trouble!

        Interesting . Here the command of our Air Force considers this machine "the best tool for war", and Kedmi suddenly understands more than they do. Who is he?
        1. Mar.Tirah
          Mar.Tirah 7 January 2017 10: 12
          +3
          Hello. Yes, no one. Anyone respected to him. Everyone just has their own point of view and understanding. It’s just blasphemous to me that I defend the point of view of the JEWISH from the JEWISH! As for the Air Force command, he also has his own opinion! And it does not differ in anything from the Russian, or say the American one. You look at your leisure! And the main question is, why is Israel such an expensive toy, against whom to fight? So it remained unanswered!
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 7 January 2017 10: 48
            +2
            "And the main question is, why is Israel such an expensive toy, against whom to fight?" ////

            A toy is no more expensive than those on the fighter market. Against those who re-equip air defense systems with modern systems, which take the F-16 with great difficulty.
            1. OLD FART
              OLD FART 7 January 2017 13: 40
              0
              Quote: voyaka uh
              A toy is no more expensive than those on the fighter market. Against those who re-equip air defense systems with modern systems, which take the F-16 with great difficulty.

              And where do you fly there at all .. ??? always surprised and wondered ..! Well, like there are corncrackers there ...))) Show the flight map, !!!! Or immediately vertical take-off and Nesterov’s loop and landing immediately ..?
              1. Maz
                Maz 8 January 2017 01: 13
                +1
                They have almost all the stripes turned towards the sea, even in Google can be seen.
        2. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 10: 53
          0
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Who is he?

          Retired, former Mossad employee.
          Where to go back down, they adopted the aircraft, they’ll finish it in 10 years.
          1. Kryvbas
            Kryvbas 7 January 2017 16: 41
            +6
            He never worked in the MOSSAD in his life. He was the head of an office called "Nativ". This is a repatriation bureau. That is, he was engaged in helping Jews get to Israel. some official documents, since it was necessary to bring Jews from hostile countries to the country. But nothing more. And he had little more than nothing to do with intelligence as such. Moreover, he has been retired for a long time, and knowledge he is no more than an average Israeli. But Yasha is very fond of PR. In Israel, this will not work, because most know what he is. But in Russia they eat it on both cheeks and ask for more additives. As well as a former "intelligence officer" :)))
            1. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 17: 51
              +1
              Quote: Krivbass
              Never in his life had he worked in Mossad.

              Yes, I do not insist, Yakov Kedmi has the right to his point of view, how objective it is is another matter.
              1. Kryvbas
                Kryvbas 7 January 2017 18: 03
                +2
                It is objective no more than the point of view of the average Israeli. He simply does PR on the idea of ​​broadcasting what the Russian viewer (reader) will like. Well, he has achieved, admittedly, a lot - many people regard his "opinion" as the most correct. - this is a former "intelligence officer" :) In Israel, the power structures have long forgotten that there was such a Yasha in the position of the head of the repatriation bureau. Only a small part of the Russian-speaking Israelis are interested in his opinion, and that is mainly from the newly arrived
            2. just exp
              just exp 8 January 2017 05: 50
              0
              Well, EtonTV is Russian television. did not know, did not know.
              1. Kryvbas
                Kryvbas 8 January 2017 07: 53
                0
                It’s the most. Although generally speaking, strictly speaking, it’s not even a television, but a YouTube channel. It has nothing to do with Israeli TV channels.
        3. NEXUS
          NEXUS 7 January 2017 12: 08
          +4
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Here the command of our Air Force considers this machine "the best tool for war"

          Against war with whom? Where was the F-35 seen, where would it deal with the forces of the Air Force and Air Defense of another country?
          1. cap
            cap 7 January 2017 12: 39
            +1
            Quote: NEXUS
            Against war with whom? Where was the F-35 seen, where would it deal with the forces of the Air Force and Air Defense of another country?


            With our VKS in our States. On repainted F18. laughing
          2. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 7 January 2017 22: 02
            +1
            Quote: NEXUS
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            Here the command of our Air Force considers this machine "the best tool for war"

            Against war with whom? Where was the F-35 seen, where would it deal with the forces of the Air Force and Air Defense of another country?

            Let's wait and see. For example, the Su-35 also did not participate in any aerial combat, so would we question its combat qualities?
            1. NEXUS
              NEXUS 7 January 2017 22: 40
              +2
              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              For example, the Su-35 also did not participate in any aerial combat, so would we question its combat qualities?

              However, when the SU-35S appeared in Syria, the Turkish Air Force sat quietly at its airfields without the risk of contacting this fighter.
              1. Aaron Zawi
                Aaron Zawi 7 January 2017 23: 56
                +2
                Quote: NEXUS

                However, when the SU-35S appeared in Syria, the Turkish Air Force sat quietly at its airfields without the risk of contacting this fighter.

                Yes, quit. There were only 4 Su-35s. They did not radically change anything. Economic pressure and the failed military coup did much more.
                1. just exp
                  just exp 8 January 2017 05: 54
                  +1
                  maybe they didn’t radically change, but 4 Su-35, + 6 Su-30SM + a lot of air defense systems. they wouldn’t let Turkey not only fly there, but generally have an air force.
                  so then of course they wouldn’t destroy the Air Force, but the Turks would not fly in that zone, and after that the airfields would just calibrate b.
    5. adma
      adma 7 January 2017 10: 07
      +5
      Quote: Nevsky_ZU
      ... The iron is another matter, the flight of which and aerodynamics are constantly adjusted by the computer. And in general, why the Russians, using the principle of "open architecture", carry on-board computers and systems separately on the panel, and not like Americans into a single computer, which then fails from working in 10 applications at the same time)) Wow, these Russians, probably on T- 50 will also duplicate the analog panel?

      good
      And they are everywhere like that. They have the same basic military doctrine - shooting to defeat from a long distance, which does not give the enemy a chance at return fire. Lupanul from afar and alga back. Here, and the iron will fit very well, the main thing is to fly fast. And dear, because they know how to cut a budget much better than ours. Saw competently and skillfully. bully
    6. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 January 2017 10: 52
      +1
      "in general, why the Russians, using the principle of" open architecture ", are spreading on-board computers and systems separately" /////

      There is no open architecture there. And they are carried separately, because they did not manage to combine everything. Therefore, this is not the 5th generation.
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 11: 10
        +3
        Quote: voyaka uh
        There is no open architecture there.

        Where is the droushka?
        Quote: voyaka uh
        And they’re carried separately

        Who carries whom? Someone blurted out the others picked up.
        BREO PAK FA is still a closed book, the plane is in development, everyone can change, there is nothing to talk about. Where is the Su-47 now?
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 7 January 2017 11: 36
          +2
          But the price of T 50 by Russian standards is huge - almost 4 billion rubles apiece.
          1. aszzz888
            aszzz888 7 January 2017 11: 50
            0
            For "aviation experts"
            To sum up, Fredenburg calls upon Donald Trump to abandon the unprofitable program and “save American taxpayers' money from an unpromising project,” which cost reached $ 1,5 trillion.
          2. cap
            cap 7 January 2017 14: 11
            0
            Quote: Vadim237
            But the price of T 50 by Russian standards is huge - almost 4 billion rubles apiece.


            A roll of paper a couple of cans of paint, and all things. This is our Central Bank on guard. They easily.
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 7 January 2017 15: 27
              0
              If this were so, then in Russia, there would be no budget deficit at all. But alas, we do not have a printing press that throws out tons of unsecured money in tons.
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 8 January 2017 18: 29
                +2
                Quote: Vadim237
                If this were so, then in Russia, there would be no budget deficit at all

                Dear, in addition to the PAK FA program, we still have a lot of other programs that also need money. For example, the projects Borey and Yasen, Lada, Kalina, destroyer Leader, the development of gas turbines for corvettes and frigates, the same Armata, Barguzin and so on ... all this money is needed, which are included in the program of our rearmament. But to listen to you, you don’t need to do anything at all, but you just need to make spears and arrows so that it is cheap and a lot. Stop already carrying this nonsense. Everyone is arming themselves, and even from this point of view we have no choice!
                Quote: Vadim237
                But alas, we do not have a printing press that throws out tons of unsecured money in tons.

                So the United States does not have a printing press! The printing press does not belong to the United States, but to the Fed. Feel the difference? And these tons of money are taken by the states in the form of a loan, and not free of charge.
                1. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 8 January 2017 18: 34
                  0
                  "And to listen to you, then you don't need to do anything at all, but you just need to make spears and arrows so that it is cheap and a lot. Stop carrying this nonsense." Do you have a marazm? I wrote that our budget will not cover a large series of fifth-generation fighters - the aircraft are too expensive.
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 8 January 2017 18: 42
                    +2
                    Quote: Vadim237
                    I wrote about the fact that our budget will not pull a large series of fifth-generation fighters - too expensive planes.

                    I will tell you a little secret - any NEW development (product) is a priori expensive at first, maybe even too much. Then comes the series and work to reduce the cost of the product. And the larger the series, the cheaper the product. At the same time, there is still such a thing as industrial surveys, in which new materials appear (possibly cheaper, without sacrificing performance), new electronics, etc. ... Armata will also not be cheap at first, but UVZ at the threshold said that the price would be lower , with the construction of a large series. The same goes for PAK FA.
                    Head products are ALWAYS more expensive than serial ones.
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 7 January 2017 11: 46
        +7
        Quote: voyaka uh
        And they are carried separately, because they did not manage to combine everything. Therefore, this is not the 5th generation.

        Duplication of systems such as a fighter or submarine is a common practice, which greatly reduces the likelihood of platform systems failures. And your conclusion that the Russians duplicated the vital PAK FA systems, so he is not a 5th generation fighter, is simply incomprehensible, to put it mildly.
      3. dvina71
        dvina71 8 January 2017 00: 23
        0
        Quote: voyaka uh
        And they are carried separately, because they did not manage to combine everything. Therefore, this is not the 5th generation.

        Oh .. one more criterion of the 5th generation .. I have not met before .. A single on-board computer.
        I sincerely hope that the axis to this computer was made by those who also made Windows .. I really hope ..
    7. meshorer
      meshorer 7 January 2017 11: 22
      0
      Guys, you are pleased to be comforted by the opinions of unknown engineers and to gain a foothold in the opinion that the F-35 is a flying iron wunderwafer and an expandable. You think that all countries purchasing this car. Interestingly, you will say over the ruins of the destroyed S-300 and S-400. Although I guess: stupid Iranians were not able to use a unique technique that has no analogues in the world.
      1. Winnie76
        Winnie76 7 January 2017 11: 46
        +14
        Quote: meshorer
        Guys, you are pleased to be comforted by the opinions of unknown engineers and to gain a foothold in the opinion that the F-35 is a flying iron wunderwafer and an expandable.

        Oh yeah. F-35 is a death star, low-speed, capable of carrying 2 missiles in the abdomen, with a helicopter radius and having an EPR like a mosquito (according to the commercials). And the Jewish helmet provides her with a total superiority over everything.
        1. HAPA
          HAPA 7 January 2017 17: 00
          +2
          Quote: Winnie76
          Oh yeah. F-35 is a death star, slow moving,

          Faster F-16 and F / A-18EF in combat configuration.
          for the F-16 block 50 in the combat configuration of the photo below.


          Quote: Winnie76
          capable of carrying 2 missiles in the belly,

          4 missiles in Block 3F and 6 in the future.



          Quote: Winnie76
          with helicopter radius
















          1000 km combat radius at the helicopter? hmm cool ..

          So it's quite a good plane.
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 7 January 2017 11: 52
        +10
        Quote: meshorer
        Interestingly, you will say over the ruins of the destroyed S-300 and S-400.

        If Israel clashes with Iran, I'm afraid the outcome of this conflict is far from obvious. The Persians are far from fools and know how to fight no worse than you, and therefore your statement about the S-300/400 is too presumptuous.
        I’ll say more, you can take it as my forecast — the Arab world will unite and it’s Iran that will be one of the centers of power ... and in this scenario, I’m afraid Israel will not even be comfortable with its own air force, as it will not be separate countries anymore, which you exponentially put in place, and a force to be reckoned with.
        1. meshorer
          meshorer 7 January 2017 13: 12
          +6
          Persians know how to brag, and this is their main skill. They showed nothing in either the Iranian or the Syrian war. Russian officers are extremely dismissive of the fighting qualities of their Iranian allies. And never will Shiite Persians unite with Sunni Arabs. The internal hatred in Islam between Shiites and Sunnis is even stronger than hatred of other religions.
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 7 January 2017 13: 40
            +6
            Quote: meshorer
            The internal hatred in Islam between Shiites and Sunnis is even stronger than hatred of other religions.

            Dear, the whole Shiite world will unite around Iran. I understand your hatred of Hezbollah, but these guys are fighting for their place under the sun, just as Israel once fought for its own. So at the expense of boasting, you are in a little hurry. It is extremely important for Israel and the United States that the Arab world be fragmented and Sunnis, Alawites and Shiites cling to each other's throats ... and while this is the case, you calmly take the F-35, knowing that by and large the Arab world is not up to Israel, given the contention within this world. But I assure you, this is temporary.
          2. Awaz
            Awaz 7 January 2017 14: 00
            +6
            that’s why Israel has hope, the Jews pour fuel there, precisely in the enmity of the Arabs in terms of the inconsistency of their religions. But here I was very interested, and why the Jews were kissing ISIS, and now they continue. Isil, if the Russians had not intervened, they could really unite a large part of the Arabs. All the prerequisites were the same. Or am I right? Isil the brainchild of Israeli special services plus English and American? Oh, Jews play out, play out and no F 35 will save from Toyota with DShK
          3. Maz
            Maz 8 January 2017 01: 11
            +2
            You should have heard our officers speak of your Israeli - scribe. Zadovbali their selectivity - this is the easiest of the characteristics heard
      3. Kasym
        Kasym 7 January 2017 12: 28
        +10
        Meshorer, but where else to go if the money invested in development? And where do Americans go - must they be brought up ?!
        The main mistake is the TTZ of this aircraft. Attack aircraft, bomber, fighter with the possibility of vertical on one of three versions. This is overkill. A fighter with a speed of 2 generations, without the possibility of close contact and not the best traction weapon. A bomber with 4 points of internal suspension, for the attack aircraft and there is no desire to speak - it is expensive for him. Chased after universalization, but against the specialized there is nothing to catch.
        For S-400 and 300, Almaz-Antey claims (and a very long time ago and must have been checked for F-22 in Syria) that Amer. stealth technology is not a problem for them. And why is the Yankees asking permission from the Russian Federation for flights over Syria - is the F-22 made using stealth technology ?!
        Voyak, the MiG-35 will presumably cost about 1 billion rubles - there was an article on the site with comments from the MiG Design Bureau. Translate into dollars yourself. Even if the F-35 will cost 80 mil., Then for such one you can buy 4-5 MiGs. We will not say that a MiG unit will do this with one F-35 (it simply does not have enough missiles). And it's not worth bragging about saturated electronics (one or three computers are there) - that's why EW complexes appear in the Russian Federation like pies. hi
        I am sure that it will not even be three years before the Americans present the modernized version to the world.
        1. meshorer
          meshorer 7 January 2017 13: 36
          +2
          Kasym, you forget that only on the internal suspension the F-35s will carry weapons only in the version of suppressing air defense and gaining superiority in the air. After the destruction of the F-35 air defense will be loaded to the maximum on external suspensions. F-22s fly over Syria with Luneberg lenses, so they ask for permission to fly. Sometimes they fly without Luneberg’s lenses, but then the Russians do not even have a clue about their flights and accordingly no permission is required. In general, I suggest you really look at reality. The last success of Russian air defense was in the 73rd year in the Doomsday War. After that, there were some shameful defeats (the last in 2008 when the Syrian atomic reactor was destroyed. Then the Torah and the Shell simply stopped working for several hours without any reason))) so you have to be more modest, more modest ...
          1. Parsec
            Parsec 7 January 2017 14: 07
            +5
            Quote: meshorer
            After that, there were only shameful defeats (the last in 2008 during the destruction of the Syrian nuclear reactor. Then the Torah and the Shell simply stopped working for several hours without any reason


            One was a more or less sane Jew (but no, sivuch yet), and that thwarted in the ravings of co.il.
            There were no Thors in Syria - they weren’t supplied, they weren’t sent, they weren’t rented. But the legend of turning off all electric devices in Syria (and much more so, silent - we can) has since been trembling by people who have not been able to learn the basics of electricity in the seventh grade of high school.
            What will you do as a Jew from Aliyah, or worse, a crest, you will immediately become a specialist in aviation, radar, rocket technology and the impact of laying on hands.
            And adults are like people.
            Yes, next time you will set out Jewish legends, also turn off the Buk, otherwise distortions are introduced, as in any legend.
            1. meshorer
              meshorer 7 January 2017 14: 18
              +2
              The fact remains: the Syrian nuclear reactor was destroyed without losses, 11 batteries of Syrian air defense in Lebanon (the best that was at that time in the Soviet assortment) were destroyed without losses, in the fighting with the Syrians over Lebanon, the score was 88: 0, an air battle with Russian pilots score 5-0 (the pilots Kamnev, Yurchenko, Zhuravlev died). So the facts are separate, and your bragging is separate. In general, bragging does not suit you, it suits Arabs and Persians more
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 7 January 2017 15: 42
                +2
                Quote: meshorer
                11 batteries of Syrian air defense in Lebanon (the best that was at that time in the Soviet assortment)

                The best? Why?
                The service of the Syrians in Lebanon was not easy and took place in a difficult, often conflicting situation, especially between the right-Christian forces (Lebanese forces) hostile to the Syrians and frequent clashes with Israelis, primarily in the sky.
                Air battles between Israeli F-15 aircraft and Syrian MiG-21 took place almost daily, and with heavy losses for the Syrians. And this is not surprising, outdated modifications of the MiG-21 were inferior in tactical and technical terms to the more modern F-15. The situation was aggravated by the fact that there was no real radar field on Lebanese territory, which enabled Syrian aviation to detect air targets. The same can be said about the radio-electronic equipment of the MiG-21 aircraft. Hence the low noise immunity. It was not even necessary to talk about such an important technical and tactical factor as the hidden control of aircraft.
                The same situation was in the ZRV. Anti-aircraft missile systems of all systems were poorly protected from interference and vulnerable. In addition, the Israelis knew all the frequencies of the Syrian complexes and easily carried out the opposition. It was not in the Syrian air defense forces and air force and modern automated controls (ACS). These are the reasons for the great losses suffered by the Syrian army on two fronts - in Lebanon and on its territory.
              2. MMX
                MMX 7 January 2017 16: 16
                +2
                Quote: meshorer
                air battle with Russian pilots score 5: 0 (pilots Kamnev, Yurchenko, Zhuravlev died).


                If we are talking about the "War of Attrition", then the total score there is not at all the same and is approximately equal to 5: 5.
              3. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 18: 34
                +2
                Quote: meshorer
                in the air battles with the Syrians over Lebanon, the score is 88: 0,

                Something after every Israeli victory that in 1982 that in 2006
                The reservists who participated in the conflict, returning home, launched a protest campaign demanding the resignation of people who they believed were guilty of Israeli military defeat - Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Amir Peretz and Dan Halutz. It was indicated, in particular, that Dan Halutz, as a native of the Air Force, could not correctly assess the significance of the land phase of the operation. However, despite criticism, not one of these three resigned. This was done by the commander of the Northern Military District, Major General Udi Adam and the commander of the division responsible for the security of the Israeli-Lebanese border.

                By June 1985, the Israeli troops were withdrawn, after which, under the control of the IDF, 850 km² remained in the south of the country (8% of Lebanon) - the so-called “security zone”.

                Something your most hated enemy is still alive and combat-ready that could be observed in the battles with IS Hezbollah in Syria
                .
                Quote: meshorer
                in the air battles with the Syrians over Lebanon, the score is 88: 0,

                Why not 888: 0?
                Quote: meshorer
                F-22s fly over Syria with Luneberg lenses, so they ask for permission to fly. Sometimes they fly without Luneberg’s lenses, but then the Russians do not even have a clue about their flights and accordingly no permission is required.

                And what for combat missions, they fly with Luneberg lenses? Aren't you fun to write this yourself?
              4. Maz
                Maz 8 January 2017 01: 05
                +2
                When did you destroy him? try to destroy now.
          2. Dart2027
            Dart2027 7 January 2017 14: 11
            +1
            Quote: meshorer
            in 2008 during the destruction of the Syrian nuclear reactor

            If I am not mistaken, there were F-15s, not F-22s. By the way, a curious moment - for some reason, the main US BSs remain 15, 16 and 18, while the same 22 are unclear what they are doing.
            Quote: meshorer
            then the Torah and the Shell simply stopped working for several hours without any reason

            And did they have Syria? Syria's air defense is, to put it mildly, not the most modern.
          3. Kasym
            Kasym 7 January 2017 14: 22
            +9
            My friend, what has to do with modesty, am I not a Russian? On the contrary, I try to be as neutral as possible. I have no doubts about American electronics. But air defense is not the capabilities of the aircraft's avionics. What will you put into the inner compartments to "extinguish" ground-based radars operating in different bands? I don't remember exactly what year, but the first time Almaz-Antey announced the possibility of detecting stealth was at an exhibition in the UAE. And there is no need to give examples of 40 years ago, especially since not the most advanced was always exported. Moreover, there was no talk of echeloned air defense. This has only now been achieved in that Syria. From this air defense, the United States and Turkey are definitely uncomfortable. The Turks were generally blown away after the deployment of air defense and the downed plane.
            Remember the incident last year when the Syrians lured out the F-22. Empty Su-24s of the Syrian Air Force flew over Kurdish territories, where the Americans were. And then the Ministry of Defense announced that F-22s flew to intercept them (I don't think they were going to intercept with lenses) - this suggests that the Russian Aerospace Forces was tracking everything, even drawing flight routes. F-22 RF and in Japan tracked. So I wouldn't really rely on stealth - they somehow have advantages against airborne radars, but over ground ones ... sorry, the "energy" is not the same.
            And finally, your recognition of the work of electronic warfare - especially against the background of statements by American specialists and generals about the capabilities of Russian complexes (which I have already lost count of and which, according to their recognition, are better than American ones). Since they are "extinguishing" the air defense, do you think it is impossible to "extinguish" the aircraft electronics, or are these high-precision missiles stuffed with it !? And then how to attack air defense systems - AB, AP or NURS ?! hi
            On the minuses that I designated at F-35, you did not write anything. And this is the main thing.
            1. meshorer
              meshorer 7 January 2017 15: 22
              +1
              I answer the points: F-35 is multi-functional, just like the F-15E and F-16. The F-35 is not inferior to 4th-generation aircraft in terms of thrust-bearing maneuverability, but this does not matter in the era of all-angle melee missiles. In the stealth version, it carries 6 missiles. For the F-35 it is preferable to DVB because there is no chance for an adversary in it. In the BVB, the enemy has chances against the F-35, but the likelihood of a scenario in which the SU-35 can fly to the BVB distance is negligible.
              Maximum overload 9G, afterburning supersonic speed, excellent thrust-to-weight ratio — even in the BVB the SU-35 will have little chance against the F-35. I can’t say anything about the T-50, but if the infa is true that the EPR is reduced only in the front, then this is where the child prodigy actually cut the dough)))

              Regarding electronic warfare, it is much easier to use them against stationary air defense than against an airplane.
              1. Kasym
                Kasym 7 January 2017 17: 22
                +4
                About the work of electronic warfare. Please look at the "Mercury" complex - an explosion on the way. And how and with what, I repeat, to destroy the air defense radar?
                My friend, the F-35, as the main front-line fighter, must "hang" over the land battlefield. Or would you order to "shoot" missiles at the enemy's BTT from the maximum distance (the cost of such missiles is equal to that of BTT)? And how to clean up the hovering turntables at a low height and folds of the terrain (it is very difficult to see on the radar monitors - "swam", I know, was on the tablet)? Also from 200-300 km. wake up No, friend, that won't work.
                The fact of the matter (as he wrote in the first comment) is that the station wagon. Specialized will complete the task better. And in the BVB with the Su-27 and MiG-29 can not cope, not that with the ATS Su-30 (35) or MiG-35.
                The enemy F-35, who will be "guided" from the ground, has no less chances. And what kind of missiles does the F-35 have for the far arm (to have an advantage in the DVB), the maximum that is is 120km-200km. And what about the range of the S-400 missiles? While the rockets are all old - and we must rely on them have their own computers. Electronic warfare. With a normal takeoff weight, the thrust arrangement is 0,6 - 0,7 - do you think this is normal !? With a maximum of just over 1 - but there is no BVB (BMB). Generally, the BVB is characterized by the time of the full bend (360 degree turn) and the radius. For the Su-27 it is 10 seconds (the MiG-29 is even less). There is no need to talk about the F-15,16,18, here even the NATO pilots' jaws dropped at the airshow on this issue (much more). For the BVB, the external suspension for the F-35 is "burdensome" - weak thrust equipment, and the internal ones are simply small for a good dog dump (this is the level of the MiG-21 in terms of armament-4 missiles, even with all the development of all-aspect guidance). And then how to get out of the BVB, if the maximum speed is small (1900 km / h)?
                At low altitude and against the background of the mountains, there is such a "light" that it is impossible to distinguish anything there - here only by "heat", but there are limitations in range. So there is a way to approach these stealth machines. And you say that it is impossible to get close.
                Yes, do not flatter yourself with these EPR and stealth (which were developed during the USSR). Stealth coating based on paints and varnishes, fuselage geometry, etc. Then, the counteraction was worked out. Just look at the development of the radar. hi
                1. HAPA
                  HAPA 7 January 2017 17: 42
                  +1
                  Quote: Kasym
                  The enemy F-35, who will be "guided" from the ground, has no less chances. And what kind of missiles does the F-35 have for the far arm (to have an advantage in the DVB), the maximum that is is 120km-200km. And what about the range of the S-400 missiles?

                  JSOW-ER-560 km ....
                  Quote: Kasym
                  While the rockets are all old - and we must assume that they have their own comp. EW.

                  which the F-35 is very powerful.
                  Quote: Kasym
                  With normal take-off weight, the thrust weapon is 0,6 - 0,7 - do you think this is normal !? With a maximum of just over 1 - but not up to the BVB (BMB).

                  Can you calculate it yourself?
                  F-35A weight 13290 kg + fuel 4000 + weapons 2000kg, thrust on the afterburners F-135 19 500. We consider
                  19500 / 19290 = 1,01.
                  Compare with the su-30. Empty weight 18.800 thrust of two AL-31f 25.000kg. Add the same conditions 4000 tons of fuel and 2000 tons of weapons.
                  25000 / 24800 = 1,008
                  F-16 9000kg + 4000kg of fuel and 2000 kg of ASP
                  with a thrust on the Forsage 13 146 kg for the GE F110-GE-129.
                  We consider 13146 / 15000kg = 0.8764
                  For configuration with V-V missiles, there will be even less.
                  Quote: Kasym
                  For the BVB, the external suspension for the F-35 is "burdensome" - weak thrust equipment, and the internal ones are simply small for a good dog dump (this is the level of the MiG-21 in terms of armament-4 missiles, even with all the development of all-aspect guidance). And then how to get out of the BVB, if the maximum speed is small (1900 km / h)?

                  Better than or at the level of 4 generation aircraft. UV with external suspension few aircraft have more than 1900km / h.
                  Everything is not bad, the pilot is more than happy with the text above.
                  for example, restrictions for su-27 (without arming)
                  1. Maximum speed and the number of M flights
                  V = 1400 km / h. The mode is not limited in time.
                  M = 2,35 With M = 2,15-2,3 no more than 5 minutes.
                  When M = 2,3-2,35 no more than 1 minute.
                  Since 2001 series
                  With M = 2,15-2,35 no more than 5 minutes.
                  Ps mercury here at all? ammunition fuse jamming
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 7 January 2017 18: 26
                    +2
                    180 km rocket for DVB - that’s what I had in mind. And about the fact that you write a whole bunch of obstacles from the echelons of air defense + electronic warfare; and they are subsonic - at such a distance and the plane will be able to lift and intercept. And what is outstanding in traction weapons you saw? The engine is wonderful, but one (see resource in 1500-4000 hours). Let's see how it behaves, because he's new. All that I think about TTX unsubscribed below.
                    The Grad rocket has a simple warhead, not even that of a v-p (v-z) rocket. With saturated electronics, exposure methods are increasing. hi
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. HAPA
                      HAPA 7 January 2017 19: 10
                      0
                      Quote: Kasym
                      180 km rocket for DVB - that’s what I had in mind. And about the fact that you write a whole bunch of obstacles from the echelons of air defense + electronic warfare; and they are subsonic - at such a distance and the plane will be able to lift and intercept. And what is outstanding in traction weapons you saw?

                      The usual thrust-weight ratio is not worse than that of others and better than that of whom he will replace the F-16. And opening an air defense is also a goal scheme.


                      Quote: Kasym
                      Let's see how it behaves, because he's new. All that I think about TTX unsubscribed below

                      he flew already more than 70000 hours ..
                    3. Vadim237
                      Vadim237 8 January 2017 10: 22
                      0
                      Only now, EW has one hitch - they have never been taken against foreign technology, so their effectiveness can be easily multiplied by zero.
                      1. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 8 January 2017 12: 19
                        +4
                        Quote: Vadim237
                        Only now, EW has one hitch - they have never been taken against foreign technology, so their effectiveness can be easily multiplied by zero.

                        It is you who tell the destroyer Donald Cook when our coastal EW systems worked on it.
              2. NEXUS
                NEXUS 8 January 2017 21: 57
                +2
                Quote: meshorer
                F-35 is multifunctional

                The fact is that you can declare anything you want, even to the point that the F-35 is a space ship. But the problem is that its versatility is very much in question. Yes, he has an extensive range of missiles and bombs that he can use ... but in a confrontation with a serious opponent, who will let him prove himself as an IFI? At best, the F-35 will be used as a bomber, because the attack aircraft from it is the same as from the iron. Fighter qualities, he, well, does not shine. It reminds me of the infamous F-117, which was kind of stealth, but then it turned out that he had better fly at night, and preferably in those places where there was no enemy air defense. I believe the same fate awaits the F-35.
                About maneuverability (I will not say anything about super-maneuverability) of the F-35 we can say that it is no better than that of 4th generation fighters. Speed? According to the statements of mattresses without afterburner, he is able to fly on supersonic, but not for long. But it seems to me that he cannot do this either.
                And in the bottom line, we have a dubious advantage in the form of stealth technology (which was obsolete back in 60 years) and radar. And that is all. In this case, the big question is whose radar is better on the same SU-30, SU-35 or F-35. There was no practice. But I think that ROFAR will soon appear, and then this dubious trump card will be reset to zero.
                And now the main question is, What will mattresses and co do when all the cards are beaten? They actually have nothing to replace the F-35! From the word ABSOLUTELY.
            2. HAPA
              HAPA 7 January 2017 17: 07
              0
              Quote: Kasym
              On the minuses that I designated at F-35, you did not write anything. And this is the main thing.

              which is only in your head ... That's the problem. wink F-35A in all performance characteristics is better than F-16 and F / a-18ef and will not even yield to F-15 in DVB
              He answered a little higher.

              Quote: Kasym
              Remember the incident last year when the Syrians lured out the F-22. Empty Su-24s of the Syrian Air Force flew over Kurdish territories, where the Americans were. And then the Ministry of Defense announced that F-22s flew to intercept them (I don't think they were going to intercept with lenses) - this suggests that the Russian Aerospace Forces was tracking everything, even drawing flight routes. F-22 RF and in Japan tracked. So I wouldn't really rely on stealth - they somehow have advantages against airborne radars, but over ground ones ... sorry, the "energy" is not the same.

              Yes, and with lenses. And just the US Air Force immediately stated that the F-22 flew out (the pilot made visual contact with the Su-24) and there were at least 400 kilometers to the nearest RF radar.

              1. Kasym
                Kasym 7 January 2017 17: 59
                +4
                Dear, do you believe in those performance characteristics that they issue? For example. Ahead is the AFAR with over 1000 independent elements, each of which has 3 wires (not some kind of composite, but metal). Imagine now those wiring harnesses to this AFAR, and they are in the bow, with an area of ​​over 1 sq. And what is the EPR of 0,001 can we talk about asking? Or that one engine. With the BVB, the fragments will fly (why did they stick the AP there, weighing under 10% of the plane) and what to do with one engine? If the rivet hits, you will have to go to the exit. And what kind of reliability can we say?
                Good move to TTX. I was a little mistaken in the comment above, because I wrote from memory. So. Traction control. With a combat (50% !!! fuel) about 1 (i.e. a range of 500 km - which was one of the minuses of the MiG-29), with a normal load of up to 0,8; at a maximum of 0,6. And what is outstanding for a fighter can be seen here, dear? Or that max. speed of 1700-1900 km / h? So the MiG-21 flew.
                Or here’s DVB, old missiles, a maximum of 180 km. - see the performance characteristics of Russian missiles, especially the S-300 (400) air defense systems.
                And why did the Americans not extinguish all the air defenses and save the Syrians from the "genocide" in Aleppo; if they have an F-22, they squealed to the whole world, but did nothing to save them? hi
                Russia behaves in such a way in Syria that it obviously does not see the "super-duper stealth" F-22. laughing
                1. HAPA
                  HAPA 7 January 2017 18: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Kasym
                  Dear, do you believe in those performance characteristics that they issue? For example. Ahead is the AFAR with over 1000 independent elements, each of which has 3 wires (not some kind of composite, but metal). Imagine now those wiring harnesses to this AFAR, and they are in the bow, with an area of ​​over 1 sq. And what is the EPR of 0,001 can we talk about asking? Or that one engine. With the BVB, the fragments will fly (why did they stick the AP there, weighing under 10% of the plane) and what to do with one engine? If the rivet hits, you will have to go to the exit. And what kind of reliability can we say?

                  The angle of the radar blade ... For this, it is positioned like this.

                  When a V-B rocket hits, the plane will most likely fall 2 engines will not save it.

                  An explosion of one engine and this without rockets.
                  Quote: Kasym
                  Good move to TTX. I was a little mistaken in the comment above, because I wrote from memory. So. Traction control. With a combat (50% !!! fuel) about 1 (i.e. a range of 500 km - which was one of the minuses of the MiG-29), with a normal load of up to 0,8; at a maximum of 0,6. And what is outstanding for a fighter can be seen here, dear? Or that max. speed of 1700-1900 km / h? So the MiG-21 flew.

                  How can there be an airplane over a battlefield with full tanks?
                  Speed ​​for BVB no more than 900km / h
                  Here is the launch for launching SU-27 missiles
                  rocket suspension points missile launch range
                  R-73 5, 6, 7, 8 N <15000 m at V = 300 - 1100 km / h
                  Allowable angles of attack:
                  a) for aircraft without suspensions or with SD
                  M 0,5 0,6 0,7 0,8 0,9 1,0 2,0
                  UAP 24˚ 23˚ 22˚ 20˚ 19˚ 18˚ 8˚
                  For su-27.
                  That is, optimally until mach 09.

                  Quote: Kasym
                  Or here’s DVB, old missiles, a maximum of 180 km. - see the performance characteristics of Russian missiles, especially the S-300 (400) air defense systems.
                  And why did the Americans not extinguish all the air defenses and save the Syrians from the "genocide" in Aleppo; if they have an F-22, they squealed to the whole world, but did nothing to save them?
                  Russia behaves in such a way in Syria that it obviously does not see the "super-duper stealth" F-22.

                  And how does it lead? And why and it was necessary to crush air defense, if necessary, and so strike.
                  The second question is for which aircraft the S-300 (400) air defense missiles are suitable. for DVB?
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 7 January 2017 19: 13
                    +3
                    "The angle of inclination ..." - the fact of the matter is that this EPR is a special case. Because if I am in echelons higher, then I get an oil painting. And see for yourself how much "iron" is there, obviously not using stealth technology - just take it a little to the side and that's it. And in general - you will still be worn out with its stealth coating (according to the experience of the USSR - on those 22 already slazy, and you need to apply under certain conditions).
                    What does the hollow or incomplete tanks have to do with it? I had in mind its obligatory location, because he is front-line and see at range.
                    F-35 in its performance characteristics reached growth. 4 generations - therefore, I do not see anything outstanding. Armed with old missiles. Electronics and the engine (but I repeat that one) - these are its advantages and nothing more. hi
                    1. HAPA
                      HAPA 7 January 2017 19: 24
                      0
                      Quote: Kasym
                      The angle of inclination ... "- the fact of the matter is that this EPR is a special case. Because if I am in echelons higher. And see for yourself how much" iron "there is clearly not according to stealth technology - take a little to the side And in general - you will still be worn out with its stealth coating (according to the experience of the USSR, it already slides on those 22, but it must be applied under certain conditions).

                      not private. Read about the reflection of any wave. Already at 18 degrees, the EPR drops hundreds of times. physics
                      And where the F-22 climb. again frank deception will be? I even know where you took this nonsense; I already wrote a nexus
                      "Only two years after the F-22 of the US Air Force made its combat debut in the skies of Syria, while observing the problems of the stealth coating of the fleet, which if not maintained, could lead to the fact that the material will begin to flake off. Operators (technicians) are just getting started. see the "wrinkles" in the coating that makes the Lockheed Martin F-22

                      Quote: Kasym
                      F-35 in its performance characteristics reached growth. 4 generations - therefore, I do not see anything outstanding. Armed with old missiles. Electronics and the engine (but I repeat that one) - these are its advantages and nothing more.

                      + - Better than its previous generations F-16, AV-8, F-18.
                      F-15 is already a different class of aircraft.
                      but epr
                      "" Measures to reduce the aircraft's signature must be coordinated with the capabilities and requirements of the electronic countermeasures system. A decrease in the level of visibility, of course, reduces the power consumption of the electronic countermeasures system, but more importantly, the use of electronic countermeasures by an unobtrusive aircraft allows one to obtain significant air superiority.
                      "Reducing the RCS from 10-15 m2 - the value typical for heavy fighters of the fourth generation, to 0.3 m2 allows fundamentally to reduce the losses of aviation in hostilities. This effect is enhanced if, simultaneously with the use of aircraft with a low ESR, modern electronic countermeasures are used. "
                      Quote: Kasym
                      What does the hollow or incomplete tanks have to do with it? I had in mind its obligatory location, because he is front-line and see at range.

                      Target nearby less fuel.
                      On average, no more than 50% + missiles will be above the battlefield.
                      1. Kasym
                        Kasym 8 January 2017 15: 34
                        +3
                        What is stealth coverage for you? This is a paint and varnish product interspersed with aluminum. "shavings" (in the form of the smallest plates) - and how do you think it slips or not, especially against the background of temperature changes !? It slides off faster than conventional paint - if anything!
                        About EPR is no longer necessary - I am a Ph.D. Sciences, do not succumb to the illusions of 0,001.
                        500km - range at combat load - a lot of criticism was about this radius in the MiG-29.
                        What figures do F-22 and 35, which do not grow. 4th generation? That's why I write that they reached only growing. 4th generation. hi
                      2. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 8 January 2017 18: 56
                        +3
                        Quote: Kasym
                        About EPR is no longer necessary - I am a Ph.D. Sciences, do not succumb to the illusions of 0,001.

                        Why would a person be awakened if he feels so well in his illusions?
                        After all, the mattresses stated that the EPR is O, 001 M, so you have to believe! They are for the sake of the sale of the same F-35 will only speak the truth.
                        My father often said, GOOD THING IN ADVERTISING DOES NOT NEED.
                        And then there is such a PR company that you just need to believe and run with a yell-BUY!
          4. just exp
            just exp 8 January 2017 05: 58
            0
            in fact, when you bombed that object in Syria, then Syria did not have shells or Tori, they still don’t have Tori emnip.
            but about the 73rd, well, if you mean the Arabs, yes, and so the amers in Vietnam until the 75th "landed".
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 7 January 2017 19: 09
          +2
          "Almaz-Antey approves for S-400 and 300" //////

          And what else should they do, no matter how to state this? wink
          To tell the truth: "we cannot shoot at stealths, since our radars do not capture them"? And who will buy them after that?
          They bluff - and do the right thing! - and they themselves are feverishly trying to develop something more modern. Currently, objects less than 2 m2, they do not reliably cut.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 7 January 2017 19: 17
            +2
            Quote: voyaka uh
            They bluff - and do the right thing! - and they themselves are feverishly trying to develop something more modern ...


            Once a man came out onto Red Square and shouted: - Brezhnev - hollow and empty bell !!!
            A man was imprisoned for 12 years: 2 - for defaming the person, and 10 - for divulging state secrets

            Nothing personal, just inspired request
          2. Kasym
            Kasym 7 January 2017 19: 21
            +3
            Warrior, why then does the United States not climb into the airspace of Syria - I see the complete domination of Russia !? All these stealth technologies were "worked out" during the Soviet era. wink
            All these tales - balls in space were spotted during joint exercises of the Russian Federation and NATO. hi
            1. HAPA
              HAPA 7 January 2017 19: 33
              0
              Quote: Kasym
              Warrior, why then does the United States not climb into the airspace of Syria - I see the complete domination of Russia !? All these stealth technologies were "worked out" during the Soviet era.
              All these tales - balls in space were spotted during joint exercises of the Russian Federation and NATO.

              They climb. And strike regularly.

              Palmyra 16.12.2016/XNUMX/XNUMX
              The strikes occurred in the daytime from late morning until early evening on Thursday. Amazed 14 tanks, three artillery systems, two terrorist buildings, two tactical vehicles, as well as the system captured artillery and air defense were destroyed. The equipment was destroyed in the area of ​​the airfield, northeast of the city along the highway.

              During Operation 16, Coalition Aircraft fired 22 ammunition, 22 targets were destroyed.
              http://www.inherentresolve.mil/News/Article/10320
              65 / airstrikes-destroy-isils-captured-tanks /
            2. meshorer
              meshorer 7 January 2017 20: 29
              0
              Kasym, the destruction of tanks and fire support of the ground forces will be carried out by drones, helicopters and Tamuz missiles with a range of 30 km. F-35 has nothing to do with it.
              1. Maz
                Maz 8 January 2017 01: 00
                +2
                Where will they be supported, in whose territory and against whom?
              2. Kasym
                Kasym 8 January 2017 15: 06
                +2
                Man, look at Syria - who does the main work there? And imagine the situation in a clash of equivalent armies.
                Drones - in the Crimea and Iran they were planted like trophies.
                Helicopters over the battlefield without cover are unlikely to be - one light fighter at a distance will shoot a link of turntables.
                In my opinion, any general will order, if possible, control the air. space and to ensure the security of ground forces, and in the event of an offensive (defense), all air forces will order to strike at defending (advancing) troops. At the same time, no one will look at what will be brought down or not.
                I understand that now is not the Second World War, when there were no guided missiles. But the fact is that all sorts of lumps were found for these missiles. Electronic warfare - and what would you like to do, not fight !? So those AB (bomb), AP (cannon), NURS (uncontrolled cancer) will be used. and anti-aircraft artillery. That is why I think that a fighter must be super maneuverable. And the pilot will fully own and use the AP in the BVB. And what about the F-35, which is classified as a front-line (see range) and the most massive combat aircraft "has nothing to do with it"? And how, just the same very much !!! hi
          3. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 21: 07
            0
            Quote: voyaka uh
            They bluff - and do the right thing! - and they themselves are feverishly trying to develop something more modern. Currently, objects less than 2 m2, they do not reliably cut.

            In 1986, we shot down Grad Osa rocket shells, which ESR of the Grad shell can you guess.
            1. meshorer
              meshorer 7 January 2017 23: 28
              0
              Saturn, but can you just confirm your interception of the City of Wasp with something other than your words? I also knocked down Gad from my Glock-19 a couple of years ago, I just can’t prove it)))
              1. Maz
                Maz 8 January 2017 01: 30
                +2
                It was in the Middle East. The Israelis got into the habit of bombing our launcher. And it turned out for them it is very successful. 12 Phantoms are walking at low altitude, no one sees them. Just before the air defense point, they make a hill, drop everything they have, and quickly leave. Our Arab friends have no time to do anything. Very quickly Phantoms appear, bomb, and disappear. The air defense system is being restored for a week. A week later, the Phantoms arrive again and everything repeats. One of our advisers is tired of all this. He called his friend - an artilleryman and asked to allocate "Grad" for a couple of days. They put this "Grad" in the very center of the battery, pointed it into the sky and began to wait. Insolent Jews again, as on schedule, arrive to bomb the point. As always, they make a slide, go to the peak ... And then our Bah-Bah! ... from all forty trunks. There are explosions all around ... There are 12 parachutes in the sky. As it turned out later, not a single shell never hit the plane. But the pilot doesn't care what is flying at him - a blank with TNT or an air defense missile system. So they all twitched, who had time for what. After this incident, the Phantoms did not arrive for a long time to bomb our point. Everyone figured out how they were able to shoot down 12 planes at once? .. (C) So shsho on a cunning Jewish F there is always a threaded bolt, dynamite and nooks from the air defense
              2. just exp
                just exp 8 January 2017 06: 01
                +1
                and you can confirm what other than your words that our air defense targets with EPR in less than 2 squares do not cut?
          4. Maz
            Maz 8 January 2017 01: 03
            +2
            What are you doing here? Do you reveal the truth to the uterus? About what bad gunsmiths we have and what wonderful American planes the Jews have? Deal with Azariah first, the Jewish fighters.
          5. just exp
            just exp 8 January 2017 06: 00
            0
            they personally told you, and they shoot down target missiles on the basis of SAM from Osa only in the video editor?
          6. NEXUS
            NEXUS 8 January 2017 18: 11
            +2
            Quote: voyaka uh
            And what else should they do, no matter how to state this?
            To tell the truth: "we cannot shoot at stealths, since our radars do not capture them"?

            And what should mattresses do and you, the Israelis, how not to say that EPR F-35 and F-22 with three zeros after the decimal point? They shout that they are the most, but however, they refused to sell the lizard for export ... and all your statements about the stealth of the lizard and lightning, this is just chatter about - "we are the most" ...
            In Vietnam, too, Phantoms were on paper and conversations were even cooler than boiled eggs, so what? 4 to 1 ratio, that is, one MIG 4 Phantoms! These are real numbers, not advertising chatter.
      4. Taran 75
        Taran 75 7 January 2017 12: 35
        +4
        we will watch as the Iranians will jump on the wreckage of your wunder scrap metal lol
      5. OLD FART
        OLD FART 7 January 2017 13: 24
        +1
        Quote: meshorer
        Guys, you are pleased to be comforted by the opinions of unknown engineers and to gain a foothold in the opinion that the F-35 is a flying iron wunderwafer and an expandable. You think that all countries purchasing this car. Interestingly, you will say over the ruins of the destroyed S-300 and S-400. Although I guess: stupid Iranians were not able to use a unique technique that has no analogues in the world.

        Yes, at least buy space shuttles ... Touch Iran, immediately scatter! The fact that now this massacre is in the Middle, it is your fault too and you will have to pay (as the Germans pay you ...)))) What were you afraid of ????
        1. meshorer
          meshorer 7 January 2017 13: 41
          +3
          Mikhan, we are only afraid of you in righteous drunken anger, there is no worse punishment for us)))
    8. Maz
      Maz 8 January 2017 01: 21
      +2
      But we are not afraid of you


      "At the end of the working day, DO NOT LEAVE ROCKETS IN THE HALLWAY" is written on the ad. and a phone number in case of fire 8888 (the dumbest number for idiots) so as not to confuse the numbers ...
      1. meshorer
        meshorer 8 January 2017 07: 56
        0
        Right MAZ. We are Dumb, what to take from us? And the Americans are DULL. And you are smart, especially you, Meehan and quilted jacket. You see right through us.
    9. The comment was deleted.
      1. just exp
        just exp 8 January 2017 06: 03
        +2
        Yes, the amount is large, so you risk it, oh, you’re a risky person, Andrush. not everyone will risk such a state.
        1. AndreiBelarus
          AndreiBelarus 9 January 2017 02: 16
          0
          the amount is not important, I can argue 1 ruble
  2. Spartanez300
    Spartanez300 7 January 2017 09: 28
    +1
    Yes, such grandmothers vparivat in the trash, well, the flag in your hands.
  3. Observer2014
    Observer2014 7 January 2017 09: 48
    +4
    the new president will need to end this “hopeless” program, says The National Review columnist, engineer Mike Fredenburg.
    Damn it! Who pulls this engineer by the tongue! F 35 does not need to be brought to mind! bully
    To summarize, Fredenburg calls on Donald Trump to abandon the loss-making program and “save US taxpayer money from a futile project,” which cost $ 1,5 trillion.
    Bullshit. Still print. laughing
  4. Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 7 January 2017 09: 49
    +5
    And is it so colored in the photo or just burned? Penguin is a flightless bird, whatever you call it.
    1. Muvka
      Muvka 7 January 2017 09: 52
      +2
      About 2-3 months ago, it seemed like there was news about a fire in the engine. Photo from there.
    2. APASUS
      APASUS 7 January 2017 10: 09
      +2
      Quote: Stroibat stock
      And is it so colored in the photo or just burned?

      This is the F-35 after the fire.
      At one of the F-35A's Idaho airbases, a fire started during an engine start on September 23, according to Defense News.

      The United States has closed no program for the production of advanced weapons,
      but this program is designed to inject allied funds, so it won’t be closed. Japan and Israel with their software will still connect
  5. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 7 January 2017 09: 52
    +5
    Our Israeli friends will certainly write about the REAL problems of this lightning. Only a year will pass, no less. And now - this is generally talk about nothing.
    1. sabakina
      sabakina 7 January 2017 10: 24
      +1
      A year is a long time. Can't you get early?
  6. Hannibal Lecter
    Hannibal Lecter 7 January 2017 10: 22
    +11
    I hope all the same they will continue to shoot grandmas in a bad plane. We are in a buzz. They just need ideas. Suppose there is a problem with the engine overheating - you need to upgrade the plane so that it can fly into space (it’s cold there) and when the engines cool down there, it suddenly dives into the atmosphere and tratatatatata. Well, or to Siberia, but there my brother-in-law serves in air defense. Does not drink at all, sits and waits, sits and waits. Will hit.
  7. Kryvbas
    Kryvbas 7 January 2017 10: 22
    +3
    Oh, well, if a whole columnist from a single tabloid wrote so - then of course, you need to drain the water - that these Air Force commanders understand, or is it a columnist for the yellow edition :))) And even a great specialist in aviation, the pike vest Kedmi himself, of which many even in the "scouts" made, confirmed :)
    1. thinker
      thinker 7 January 2017 11: 22
      +3
      Yeah, this Mike Fredenburg is Putin's agent laughing
      The prospective destroyer Zumwalt turned out to be a "real disaster" for the US Navy, and its construction is a "waste of money", believes the reviewer of the American publication National Review Mike Fredenburg.
      1. Kryvbas
        Kryvbas 7 January 2017 16: 01
        +1
        In general, what is this most tabloid edition of the National Review, how authoritative it is in military matters? The same applies to the "specialist" in these very issues. Unlike, say, the Defense Review, no one has ever heard of them in among professional military experts.
  8. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 7 January 2017 10: 31
    +2
    Nothing can be fixed in the F-35.

    I will not even comment, let alone argue with the fans of this airplane. Every day more and more complaints from those who have already received these planes and from those who were going to receive them. I have already written to "friends" from Israel that one should not rejoice at a gift horse without looking at its teeth (the wording was slightly different, but appropriate).
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 January 2017 10: 43
      +2
      Who did the complaints come from? In five countries it’s already intersessively flying, not a single one is lost,
      not a single case of pilot bailout.
      1. rotmistr60
        rotmistr60 7 January 2017 10: 49
        +9
        I always respect your comments. But in Russia there is a saying - "It's not over yet." So that the respected soldier will see (as you say).
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 7 January 2017 12: 01
          +4
          When the F-16s were put into operation in NATO countries, there were accidents and bailouts every month. Lost (over a period comparable to the current with the F-35) dozens of aircraft.
          Just then there was no Internet, otherwise it would be a cry to heaven smile
          I am based on this comparison. While it is sharply in favor of the F-35.
          1. Maz
            Maz 8 January 2017 01: 36
            +2
            Jokes of the F16 fighter over the Dead Sea Colleagues from the Israeli department of Motorola told such a bike ...
            Israel. Desert over the Dead Sea. Air Force training. Cheshet F16 on a shaver, jumping on bumps. Flies up to the Dead Sea ... RESET the entire navigation system !!! And the speed is more than 400 km \ hour.
            Open up motor scooters-developers. Repeat the flight. RESET !!! Repeat the entire cycle, including operations on developers repeatedly. In a flying airplane, debugging a program is difficult. On earth, all tests pass on URA. Pilots, to put it mildly, do not show a desire to fly without an on-board computer. The Dead Sea region is strategically important and the General Staff has everyone in all holes and even digs new ones. In short, the situation is two aces on the meager.
            In the end, one wise guy guessed. The height of the Dead Sea is MINUS 500 meters. Shaving flight. So when this pepelats flew through 0 heights, the on-board computer simply divided by 0 and restarted the equipment, inevitable as a world revolution.
            Since then, this case has been an invariable part of the Motorola microcontroller course.
            Submitted by Dmitry Obukhov to the site PodSos.ru
            I think by analogy with f16 and fu35 you also have sex.
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 7 January 2017 11: 58
        +5
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Who did the complaints come from? In five countries it’s already intersessively flying, not a single one is lost,
        not a single case of pilot bailout.

        It's great to just fly and train, but ... the most reinforced concrete indicator of losses or not loss will be the use of the F-35 in combat conditions. And here, I'm afraid, your trust in the "fantastic" EPR may play a bad joke with you.
        By the way, both Israeli experts and mattresses unanimously say that the Raptor’s EPR is -0,001 m ... and Russian experts say that the Raptor’s EPR is -0,3-0,5 m ... so who to believe?
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 7 January 2017 19: 16
          +3
          Russian experts understand that recognizing the EPR of 0.001-0.005 Raptor and Lightning means signing their complete invisibility to Russian air defense. Indeed, in the performance characteristics of complexes and missiles
          minimum for detection and shooting - 0.5 m2. Although in reality they are set to 2 m2.
          And experts will not be praised for this.
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 7 January 2017 19: 19
            +2
            Quote: voyaka uh
            Indeed, in the performance characteristics of complexes and missiles
            minimum for detection and shooting - 0.5 m2. Although in reality they are set to 2 m2.

            Do you know the real performance characteristics of the upgraded S-300 and S-400? Do not share?
            These mattresses are asking us for permission to fly into Syria ... apparently they are very cultured and polite.
            1. HAPA
              HAPA 7 January 2017 20: 11
              0
              Quote: NEXUS
              These mattresses are asking us for permission to fly into Syria ... apparently they are very cultured and polite.

              Inform, do not ask. These are different things.
              Regularly strike in Syria
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 7 January 2017 20: 59
              +2
              They talk with Russia cautiously, not because of air defense, but because of ICBMs. This is a trump ace.
              No one will climb to check Russia's air defense in order not to run into global troubles. Therefore, Diamond-Antey has time to come up with a new generation of radars, through which it will be possible to stealth and hit them. There are no fools working - they’ll come up. But this, plus production, plus equipment, will take time.
              Not months - years. So far, only foreign customers can suffer. But all
              can be attributed to the stupidity of the "natives". So Russia has no particular problems.
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 7 January 2017 21: 02
                +2
                Quote: voyaka uh
                There are no fools working - they’ll come up. But this, plus production, plus equipment, will take time.

                You did not answer my question- DISCLAIM TTX OF LAST MODIFICATIONS S-300 AND S-400.
              2. Ckat
                Ckat 8 January 2017 21: 22
                0
                You are a little behind the development of radar and detection equipment :) Even "radio-transparent" materials are already "visible".
          2. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 21: 10
            0
            Quote: voyaka uh
            Russian experts understand that to recognize the EPR 0.001-0.005 of the Raptor and Lightning

            You comfort yourself with illusions.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 7 January 2017 21: 41
              +4
              We exchanged views. I read all the posts of opponents and respect their points of view fellow
              1. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 7 January 2017 23: 48
                +1
                Quote: voyaka uh
                We exchanged views. I read all the posts of opponents and respect their points of view

                Advantages of the F-35 in my opinion: the Americans managed to place large internal fuel tanks, a very advanced avionics and electron-optical system, by the way, spaced.
                Naturally, this is a step forward but not a death star.
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 8 January 2017 11: 29
                  +3
                  "Naturally this is a step forward, but not a death star" ////

                  The F-35 has limitations, but the limitations laid down in its engineering
                  the task.
                  This is NOT a fighter for gaining air supremacy.
                  He has a slow boost and slow acceleration like a vertical,
                  and horizontally. At the same time, when it reaches its "crown" speed of 0,9 MAX, (I'm talking about a regular F-35A) it turns into a very maneuverable and energetic fighter with aerobatics and all the bells and whistles for close combat.
                  This has already been verified by the Norwegians in training battles against their own F-16s.
                  The F-4 will be able to fight quietly against 35th generation fighters due to its "good vision" and its own stealth, and against 22th generation air superiority fighters (like the F-50 or T-5) - only in a group.
  9. Spitfire
    Spitfire 7 January 2017 11: 15
    +3
    Quote: Nevsky_ZU
    Now friends from Israel will catch up and say that their F-35, thanks to Jewish firmware and software, work better, including the design features of the engine, alloys and the design as a whole)) fellow And only "bast shoes" Russia has been conducting flight tests of the T-50 for almost 10 years, carrying out some kind of load on the glider, endless bench tests. Another thing is the iron, the flight of which and the aerodynamics are constantly adjusted by the computer. And in general, why the Russians, using the principle of "open architecture", carry on-board computers and systems separately on the panel, and not like Americans into a single computer, which then fails from working simultaneously in 10 applications)) laughing Wow, these Russians, probably on the T-50 will also duplicate the analog panel? wassat


    “Another major feature of the T-10 for the first time in domestic fighter aviation was to be the implementation of the concept of longitudinal static instability of the aircraft at subsonic flight speeds with the provision of its longitudinal balancing in flight by means of the automation of a fourfold redundant fly-by-wire control system (EDSU). The idea of ​​replacing the traditional mechanical control wiring with EDSU was already used by the OKB when creating the T-4 aircraft, the tests of which confirmed the correctness of the main technical solutions. The adoption of the concept of longitudinal static instability (otherwise - "electronic stability") promised serious advantages: for balancing the aircraft at high angles of attack, it was necessary to deflect the stabilizer toe up, at the same time, its lift was added to the lift of the wing, which gave a significant improvement in the bearing properties of the fighter with a slight increase in its resistance. Thanks to the use of integral static instability The Su-27 was to acquire exceptional maneuverability, allowing it to perform in the air evolutions that are inaccessible to conventional aircraft, and to have a long flight range without outboard tanks. "

    I hope I have not discovered America for you? :-)
  10. aszzz888
    aszzz888 7 January 2017 11: 47
    +1
    Where are our members of the forum, trumpeting and striving for fi-35?
    So I say, not everything is good that is expensive and shines! bully
    1. Kryvbas
      Kryvbas 7 January 2017 16: 55
      +2
      So far, they fly in 5 countries and have not heard about any complaints. And, yes, this was written by a certain "engineer" from a tabloid publication, he knows for sure :)))
      1. Maz
        Maz 8 January 2017 00: 59
        +3
        So they fly so that no one pays attention to their superpowers and flies, they fly like a regular, faded, like triplets in the lessons.
        1. Kryvbas
          Kryvbas 8 January 2017 21: 11
          0
          Did you attend or did you bring forty on the tail?
  11. Penzyac
    Penzyac 7 January 2017 11: 53
    0
    Quote: APASUS
    Quote: Stroibat stock
    And is it so colored in the photo or just burned?

    This is the F-35 after the fire.
    At one of the F-35A's Idaho airbases, a fire started during an engine start on September 23, according to Defense News.

    The United States has closed no program for the production of advanced weapons,
    but this program is designed to inject allied funds, so it won’t be closed. Japan and Israel with their software will still connect

    It is a pity Ukraine in this ... is not yet involved ... request
  12. Altona
    Altona 7 January 2017 12: 04
    +2
    Quote: Aron Zaavi
    Come on. It is easy to argue with us and you can refer to some kind of browser of the yellow leaf. Argue with them.

    --------------------------------
    The general can even ask for and praise the "imperial starships", at least some other "death star", but there is also Congress, where you can initiate hearings on this program. Trump himself is already leaning towards reviving Boeing's projects for the F / A-18 Super Hornet, for further modernizing the F-15.
  13. Altona
    Altona 7 January 2017 12: 07
    +1
    Quote: Spitfire
    Thanks to the use of an integral statically unstable configuration, the Su-27 had to acquire exceptional maneuverability, allowing it to carry out evolutions in the air that are inaccessible to conventional aircraft, and have a long flight range without outboard tanks. "

    ------------------------------------
    You are talking about over-maneuverability, in the Pentagon this property has been discarded as unnecessary, their concept is to bomb without entering the zone of destruction of fire and other enemy weapons.
  14. Altona
    Altona 7 January 2017 12: 08
    +1
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Who did the complaints come from? In five countries it’s already intersessively flying, not a single one is lost,
    not a single case of pilot bailout.

    --------------------------------
    As Tupolev said, with good traction, the brick will fly. Does he carry out fire tasks?
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 January 2017 19: 17
      0
      Of course good And how!
  15. cap
    cap 7 January 2017 12: 17
    0
    "Save the money of American taxpayers from a futile project", the cost of which reached $ 1,5 trillion.

    “It's time to face the truth: Due to fatal design mistakes 20 years ago, the F-35 will suffer from 'weight problems' and overheating forever. Thus, within the framework of this program, we will never get a reliable, inexpensive aircraft, ”the author writes.


    As the saying goes: "beer without vodka, money down the drain" laughing
    1. OLD FART
      OLD FART 7 January 2017 12: 38
      +1
      Quote: cap
      As the saying goes: "beer without vodka, money down the drain"

      That's why the Iskander in Syria ...! wassat Israel has begun to become impudent and the UN has even sent it to the United States ... With Russia, "comrades" will not work out that way, you know Russians !!!! We will not joke ... and Hezbollah agrees with us ..))) Am I right quilted jacket? soldier
      1. cap
        cap 7 January 2017 12: 54
        +1
        Quote: STARPER
        Quote: cap
        As the saying goes: "beer without vodka, money down the drain"

        That's why the Iskander in Syria ...! wassat Israel has begun to become impudent and the UN has even sent it to the United States ... With Russia, "comrades" will not work out that way, you know Russians !!!! We will not joke ... and Hezbollah agrees with us ..))) Am I right quilted jacket? soldier


        Right to all 100. soldier
        1. OLD FART
          OLD FART 7 January 2017 13: 46
          +1
          Quote: cap
          Quote: STARPER
          Quote: cap
          As the saying goes: "beer without vodka, money down the drain"

          That's why the Iskander in Syria ...! wassat Israel has begun to become impudent and the UN has even sent it to the United States ... With Russia, "comrades" will not work out that way, you know Russians !!!! We will not joke ... and Hezbollah agrees with us ..))) Am I right quilted jacket? soldier


          Right to all 100. soldier

          Cap, I do not believe my eyes !!! drinks One wave caught ..? The site needs to be closed for updating ...))))))) fellow
  16. HAPA
    HAPA 7 January 2017 12: 53
    +4
    What moronic articles are being discussed here ...
    According to him, “the developers have facilitated the F-35 by dismantling the necessary weapons and simplifying the flight safety system”

    What is this??? What weapons were removed from it and what was simplified?
    In addition, the observer claims, "F-35 structural elements made of a special aluminum alloy simply cannot withstand high overloads."

    Yes 99% of the aircraft are made of aluminum. The F-35A has 9G exposure overloads; the aircraft spent more than 20.0000 hours at the stand. and a total raid of over 75000
    The scream level is terrible. Yes, and as I have never once seen before, that someone could objectively write why the F-35 is bad.
    Medium tier "non-firing F-35 gun" Nexus
  17. fa2998
    fa2998 7 January 2017 14: 02
    +2
    Quote: voyaka uh
    By the end of the year, we will have a squadron. F-35 leaves the assembly line, like pies, 5 pieces a month.

    In the end, the Americans will bring the F-35 with good reason. They poured so much money. Yes, and the production rate is good. We have a plan of 5 for the whole year! And this is said not in part but in testing.
    Finally, the Americans have F-22s. Now they’re not producing, but they can resume. There was a case — they refused the B-1A, but then they modified it and still the B-1B flies. hi
    1. romandostalo
      romandostalo 7 January 2017 20: 38
      0
      Yes, they will boil them all over to the Israelis, and then they will stop graduating, and not even the Australians have bought helmets ....
  18. Awaz
    Awaz 7 January 2017 14: 48
    +3
    in general, seriously, I am quite normal about the fact that the Americans manage to bring in their incredibly overrated technology, even the Jews. Either this is a conspiracy, or the Americans surpassed the Jews. Although I do not argue that Americans can sell anything (even at my place they hired Americans to sell products)
    Probably all the same, sometime in the future, the Americans and their allies will still be able to make the poorly flying and working aircraft out of f 35. Although it may not, because they already had precedents.
    But first, I wanted to recall a story. First, the recent one: as I understand it, 22 that 35 were initially called invisible planes, then inconspicuous and now they somehow call them even more sophisticatedly, although the degradation of the original characteristics is clearly observed. The main performance characteristics are also degrading in other areas, due to the fact that in the process of completion new and new problems come out, which increasingly lower the capabilities of the aircraft to lower classes and categories, only so that it continues to fly and at least somehow sell, because there are enough suckers and they hawala everything that they weave, and there are no other options for suckers. They have long been hooked.
    Next is the second story from a more distant past. The USSR had a T 34 tank at one time, it was very rude to the end and was not finalized, but it had decent enough characteristics for its time (practically had no competitors) and fought not bad enough, with proper care and even cost a penny. But the Germans, do not be Germans, decided to surpass the Russians and created a Tiger (the so-called) that completely surpassed the T 34 in all respects, and at a price of duck at all. The tiger was really a good machine, I even consider it to be one of the best in World War II, but it was too complicated and expensive and, as it turned out, its original adversary was also 2 who) learned how to deal with it: at first the tankers drove the tigers together three shot on board, and having received a more powerful gun and even alone learned to fight. And already when the advice of IP 34 was made, then this Tiger already only fought from ambush and no matter how modernized it was, so it ingloriously ended the war. Although in terms of technical characteristics - was one of the best tanks. And what Is and what T 2 were much cheaper and produced in much larger quantities, and care and maintenance required much less, etc., etc. .. I won’t be surprised if the Syrians manage to drive one such Jewess on MiG 34
    1. Kryvbas
      Kryvbas 7 January 2017 16: 28
      0
      Dreams Dreams :)))
      1. Kryvbas
        Kryvbas 7 January 2017 18: 10
        0
        They have already "driven" ordinary F-15 / F: 16 ​​:)))
        1. Awaz
          Awaz 8 January 2017 09: 42
          0
          15-16 is not really a bad American car. They are even possible, if you pump them a little, according to some characteristics they will exceed 35.
          Personally, I do not have anything in fact, I just want to remind you that the planes currently manufactured do not correspond to the performance characteristics that were originally announced. Perhaps they are even 35-15 at some points inferior (well, or inferior some time ago)
          What interests me more is how they will be used in real combat. If, based on the American concept (flew up to an unattainable distance and pulled two three guided missiles and knocked it down), then it’s probably money down the drain or works with natives who are armed with ancient equipment and still don’t know how to use it.
          But with a serious adversary who also has good air defense and, at the very least, the Air Force is poor, such garbage will not work. These 35 cannot hunt alone, they need support for guidance, or they will be spotted, and any activity of support is also noticeable, and if they spot it, it may even catch up.
          In general, I am speculating, of course, hypothetically, but the United States has not fought a real enemy for a long time, and their whole concept of weapons comes from the experience of fighting backward natives. In general, for me, their whole idea of ​​the so-called 5th generation is flawed, worse than the fact that they also cannot embody all those ideas they wanted. And I am very surprised that the Russian Federation followed their path. Okay, at least there is enough sense not to completely copy the concept of an "iron with a motor", but the statements that this year they will put into service 5 T 50 aircraft amazes me, since engines for them with those declared characteristics have not yet been fully created.
  19. Zomanus
    Zomanus 7 January 2017 16: 08
    +3
    And I personally for not closing this project.
    And even more, open up more pieces of 5-10 similar projects.
    Otherwise, what are we going to catch on here ...
  20. Spitfire
    Spitfire 7 January 2017 18: 23
    0
    Quote: Altona
    Quote: Spitfire
    Thanks to the use of an integral statically unstable configuration, the Su-27 had to acquire exceptional maneuverability, allowing it to carry out evolutions in the air that are inaccessible to conventional aircraft, and have a long flight range without outboard tanks. "

    ------------------------------------
    You are talking about over-maneuverability, in the Pentagon this property has been discarded as unnecessary, their concept is to bomb without entering the zone of destruction of fire and other enemy weapons.


    I'm not just talking about "super-maneuverability". It is not a fact that the "drying" can be generally controlled normally if somehow the "cleverness" of the EDSU is turned off.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 January 2017 19: 22
      0
      Should I disconnect? Rather, if it disconnects ... Immediately - catapult! Like the F-16.
    2. romandostalo
      romandostalo 7 January 2017 20: 47
      0
      So now no one can be controlled like that, AN-2 as much as you like, and remember how much noise there was around F-114, and we didn’t give him the nickname Khroma Goblin ...
  21. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 7 January 2017 20: 17
    0
    Even if there is no EMF, for example, in the early MIG-29, if the amplifier is violated, the plane will not fly any further ...
  22. doubovitski
    doubovitski 7 January 2017 21: 11
    +3
    Quote: stoker
    Quote: Dart2027
    Perhaps I did not specifically seek out this topic, but several times I came across publications and they did not praise him at all.


    Who are you arguing with? Well, frank nonsense.
    “The survey was based on 6-7 criteria: long-range combat, melee, turn, etc.”
    Where and by whom? There are either 6 or 7 criteria in a survey.
    6,5 never happens. By the way, only three are named. And already from them it is clear - nonsense is said. Well, what kind of melee does this iron have, what kind of turn?

    And on the other hand, what can the Jews do if no one else gives a freebie? But to steal is not possible. Eat r ... yes praise.
    A graphic illustration of the Russian proverb - for free and sweet vinegar.

    Actually, the piece of iron is priced at 485 mil. green you can’t name a freebie. This is the price for the machine itself and the price of operation over the entire service life.
    Exactly the same amount is a piece of pure gold of the same mass as this stray. So our dear partners from Tel Aviv will hammer in nails with a golden hammer. And God forbid, the enemies of Israel will learn to shoot down these "invisible things". By the way, they are poorly visible exactly until the moment when the pilot turns on his locator. That is, we do not see until he sees himself. Such is the game of tagging with a blindfold. But if he wants to look around, he will immediately see himself. In theory, there is no justification for making the locator beam invisible. Which, by the way, is determined by the enemy much more effectively. Since the enemy sees the direct signal of the beam, and the pilot himself is reflected, which is many orders of magnitude stronger.
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 8 January 2017 00: 52
      0
      Quote: doubovitski
      By the way, they are poorly visible right up to the moment when the pilot turns on his locator

      Any airplane has side-view locators, they aren’t turned off, besides .. equipment that allows you to navigate in space works .. altitude meter for example .. So any airplane lights up. Even when the main locator is turned off.
      Well, I must add that the air defense built by the Russian Armed Forces is MULTI-LEVEL. Where s-300,400 center, and in addition there is a memory of medium, small radius and passive detection tools.
      Under such conditions, you can either open it by sending a pack of unnecessary aircraft for slaughter, then shoot at the detected launchers from lightnings on reloading. Or .. using the folds of the area, the surface profile .. get as close as possible to the PU and thereby reduce the reaction time, strike.
      Threat .. still wants to add ..

      And here only envy of the will and goals of the Russian leadership .. And how quickly Iran’s air defense will receive data from such a complex .. Working .. let's say in Armenia .. Or on the Caspian coast.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 8 January 2017 14: 41
      +3
      "A piece of pure gold of the same mass as this pribluda costs exactly the same amount.
      So our dear partners from Tel Aviv will hammer nails with a golden hammer "////

      Thank you for touching concern about the finances of Israel. drinks .
      But we don’t get used to it! We have all the equipment expensive: And F-15, and Apaches, and UAVs, and missiles.

      If only the nails were hammered exactly where necessary. This is all that is required from the golden mallets good .
  23. doubovitski
    doubovitski 7 January 2017 21: 21
    +1
    Quote: HAPA
    ......
    The scream level is terrible. Yes, and as I have never once seen before, that someone could objectively write why the F-35 is bad.
    Medium tier "non-firing F-35 gun" Nexus


    Look at here.

    http://ostkraft.ru/ru/articles/1792
  24. Dulat
    Dulat 7 January 2017 22: 38
    0
    I’m sure that for the $ 1,5 trillion project the United States of Russia will come up with an asymmetric answer for 1 lard of wood (like radars based on new principles)
    1. Dormidont2
      Dormidont2 7 January 2017 23: 46
      +1
      already make samples of rofar in Russia
  25. Dormidont2
    Dormidont2 7 January 2017 23: 46
    0
    the su35 sees the target with epr about 3 for 200 km, if the Americans are so sure that their stealth is invisible, why don't they check their f22 on the su35, c300 (400) .. if you just need f22 to approach the su35 at a distance of 180-190 km and ask the su35 pilot whether he sees f22 or not, I think this information will be useful for the Pentagon, and also check to see if the f22 su35 pilot sees the RIBs turned on, it’s also interesting for the pilots to find out)) the su35 was easily detected by the US stealth drone in Syria and accompanied them
  26. Region39
    Region39 8 January 2017 00: 27
    0
    I can’t understand one thing, are the Americans so stubborn that they won’t refuse this iron, even if its cost increases significantly. but the problems will remain the same .... What is in this development such that it cannot be abandoned ...? Loss of image ... ??? A bunch of money already invested in it ... ??? What is there in the contract that even the Pentagon cannot hack this project .... and switch to another, really promising ... ??? It seems to me that there is no such project and is not visible in the foreseeable future, and they cannot recognize the fact that American engineering in aircraft construction is in a terrible impasse, unable to offer anything worthwhile.
  27. Maz
    Maz 8 January 2017 00: 56
    +2
    Applause to Israel for kissing the wunder wunder in the radome of the locator, air parade and immense joy.
  28. Niccola Mack
    Niccola Mack 8 January 2017 08: 51
    0
    To sum up, Fredenburg calls upon Donald Trump to abandon the unprofitable program and “save American taxpayers' money from an unpromising project,” which cost reached $ 1,5 trillion.

    The fundamental question is - what did the money go for?
    2 answers:
    This is the largest cut in US history. Guilty - Air Force customers, administration, developers. etc.

    This is the biggest cut in US history that the guilty are too big and there are too many. We will slowly thump money and further - while there is an opportunity.

    Option 2 is more realistic - until the F-35 (or "raptor") is done somewhere in full.
  29. TNT
    TNT 8 January 2017 12: 25
    0
    NEXUS,
    coastal EW? Previously, the conversation was about the Khibiny belay
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 8 January 2017 18: 36
      +2
      Quote: TNT
      NEXUS,
      coastal EW? Previously, the conversation was about the Khibiny belay

      Dear, you cannot be so illiterate ...
      The Hibbins EW complex is not capable of jamming the electronics of ships and aircraft, this is the time. His job is to set up phantoms of the aircraft in order to confuse the missile guidance head! And nothing more.
      Second-on SU-24 there are NO REB KHIBINA COMPLEXES!
      And the third, according to Cook, the EW complex was supposedly Monolith ... but there is one thing ... this destroyer was leading at least about a dozen of our radar systems, as a result of which, Cook's electronics literally roared. And our coastal electronic warfare complex completed the job.
  30. barik92090
    barik92090 8 January 2017 12: 48
    0
    Quote: bouncyhunter
    Colleagues ! Well, what did you attack the Fu-35? An excellent child prodigy, which allowed to cut harrorooshie grandmother and to enth ent ent vech partners. Mattresses are shaking that Trump will cover such a feeding trough ... lol

    Time works on the Fu-35! New materials, new thoughts and ideas will appear, only MONEY and a lot of MONEY are needed (there is nothing for the printing press to stand idle) then something will appear, unusual, buzzing and frightening for external and internal enemies!
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 8 January 2017 18: 14
      +2
      Quote: barsik92090
      Time works on the Fu-35!

      What a fright? When it is brought to mind, with the advent of new technologies and materials, it will stupidly become obsolete as a platform.
      Quote: barsik92090
      you need only MONEY and a lot of MONEY, (there is nothing for the printing press to stand idle)

      Printing press, dear, DO NOT OWN US. Stop talking about this printing machine.
  31. Spitfire
    Spitfire 8 January 2017 13: 11
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Should I disconnect? Rather, if it disconnects ... Immediately - catapult! Like the F-16.


    fourfold reservation. but if it fails, then yes ;-)
  32. Spitfire
    Spitfire 8 January 2017 13: 15
    0
    Quote: Zaurbek
    Even if there is no EMF, for example, in the early MIG-29, if the amplifier is violated, the plane will not fly any further ...


    if about Su, then recall the quote about fuel tanks. As I understand it, the EMF also takes into account the change in alignment with the development of fuel.
  33. doubovitski
    doubovitski 8 January 2017 13: 32
    +2
    Quote: AndreiBelarus
    I bet 100 rubles that the Jews on these planes will cancer all their neighbors even if you arm them with the Su-35 and T-50 in addition to at least 10 to 1 accounts

    No need to be greedy. 10 k1. You can immediately see the type of person who has screwed up everything at the casino and at the slot machines, including the house and the last pants.
  34. Technologist
    Technologist 8 January 2017 13: 33
    0
    Guys, be more careful with the titles, otherwise the overseas "friends" will regard it as the first task for our resident Donald Wolfovich)
  35. doubovitski
    doubovitski 8 January 2017 13: 41
    +3
    Quote: Aaron Zawi
    Quote: NEXUS
    Quote: Aron Zaavi
    Here the command of our Air Force considers this machine "the best tool for war"

    Against war with whom? Where was the F-35 seen, where would it deal with the forces of the Air Force and Air Defense of another country?

    Let's wait and see. For example, the Su-35 also did not participate in any aerial combat, so would we question its combat qualities?

    But they were present at the theater. And they did not find an adversary. This, after all, is not the fault of the plane. But the F35 seems to be cherished, but not because of its incredible cost and incredibly secret qualities, but desperately afraid to declassify among its pilots a real discrepancy with the conditions of real air combat. You need to believe in your weapons.
  36. doubovitski
    doubovitski 8 January 2017 13: 47
    +2
    Quote: Aaron Zawi
    Quote: NEXUS

    However, when the SU-35S appeared in Syria, the Turkish Air Force sat quietly at its airfields without the risk of contacting this fighter.

    Yes, quit. There were only 4 Su-35s. They did not radically change anything. Economic pressure and the failed military coup did much more.

    The behavior of the Turkish Air Force has radically changed. And the tone of the warriors in Istanbul changed, swearing earlier to bring down all. Of course, the diverse pressure on Turkey from Russia made Erdogan almost a friend of Putin. Further- Erdogan almost forgot the way to Washington complaining about the behavior of Russia. And at first his rudeness was immense.

    So, there are only 4 modern combat units ....
  37. doubovitski
    doubovitski 8 January 2017 14: 03
    +1
    Quote: Altona
    Quote: Spitfire
    Thanks to the use of an integral statically unstable configuration, the Su-27 had to acquire exceptional maneuverability, allowing it to carry out evolutions in the air that are inaccessible to conventional aircraft, and have a long flight range without outboard tanks. "

    ------------------------------------
    You are talking about over-maneuverability, in the Pentagon this property has been discarded as unnecessary, their concept is to bomb without entering the zone of destruction of fire and other enemy weapons.

    Concept - fight while sitting on the couch.
    This concept can ruin the country, but to defeat the enemy, no. Examples of this are a bunch.
  38. doubovitski
    doubovitski 8 January 2017 14: 06
    +2
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    Quote: voyaka uh
    We exchanged views. I read all the posts of opponents and respect their points of view

    Advantages of the F-35 in my opinion: the Americans managed to place large internal fuel tanks, a very advanced avionics and electron-optical system, by the way, spaced.
    Naturally, this is a step forward but not a death star.

    The desire to push everything inside, plus disfigure the contours of the fuselage because of the maniacal goal of making it invisible, made the plane unarmed (this especially applies to the "C" modification), and unable to fly.
  39. doubovitski
    doubovitski 8 January 2017 14: 09
    +1
    Quote: Dormidont2
    the su35 sees the target with epr about 3 for 200 km, if the Americans are so sure that their stealth is invisible, why don't they check their f22 on the su35, c300 (400) .. if you just need f22 to approach the su35 at a distance of 180-190 km and ask the su35 pilot whether he sees f22 or not, I think this information will be useful for the Pentagon, and also check to see if the f22 su35 pilot sees the RIBs turned on, it’s also interesting for the pilots to find out)) the su35 was easily detected by the US stealth drone in Syria and accompanied them

    Do you think they and ours WILL communicate on this occasion? I am convinced that even if the Americans, having lost their minds, begin to conduct such tests, ours will not answer. They will keep the stone in the bosom.
  40. doubovitski
    doubovitski 8 January 2017 14: 14
    +1
    Quote: Region39
    I can’t understand one thing, are the Americans so stubborn that they won’t refuse this iron, even if its cost increases significantly. but the problems will remain the same .... What is in this development such that it cannot be abandoned ...? Loss of image ... ??? A bunch of money already invested in it ... ??? What is there in the contract that even the Pentagon cannot hack this project .... and switch to another, really promising ... ??? It seems to me that there is no such project and is not visible in the foreseeable future, and they cannot recognize the fact that American engineering in aircraft construction is in a terrible impasse, unable to offer anything worthwhile.

    Do you really believe that the Americans (for themselves) firmly believe that Russia is going to fight against them? And at the same time, entering into the financial interests of firms that delegate and maintain them in these public positions, will be contrary to the manufacture of high-priced and not capable of fighting glands? In the name of WHAT? Here, in the name, MORE EXPENSIVE, yes. The higher the profits of the firms, the higher the kickbacks.
    (True, there, in them, this is called more calmly - lobbying).
  41. Kryvbas
    Kryvbas 8 January 2017 21: 12
    0
    Quote: Krivbass
    Did you attend or did you bring forty on the tail?
    1. Kryvbas
      Kryvbas 8 January 2017 21: 13
      0
      Sorry, I didn’t post it there.