Military Review

Operation "Tidal Wave". Strategic bombing of Romania

82
In August 1943, bombers from the United States of America conducted Operation Tidal Wave, which is rightfully considered one of the two most unsuccessful strategic campaigns. aviation throughout the Second World War, both in terms of losses and the results achieved. Its goal was the oil industry of Romania in Campina, Ploiesti and Brazil, which gave fuel to Hitler and his European allies. From the Axis countries, fighter aircraft and anti-aircraft guns of Germany, Romania and Bulgaria participated in the battle.


Operation "Tidal Wave". Strategic bombing of Romania


Romania has been considered a major oil-producing state since the 19th century. During the Second World War, it gave, according to some sources, up to 30% of all oil from the Axis countries. The first air raids on Romania began to carry out from the Crimean airfields still Soviet aircraft in June 1941. Among the destroyed or damaged Romanian objects in the reports was the Charles I Bridge and the oil storage facility in Constanta. Such attacks continued for another two months, until a disaster on the fronts made them impossible.



Soon the Anglo-American allies also thought about the destruction of the oil wealth of the Reich. June 13 1942, almost a year after the first Soviet attack, the B-13 Liberator 24 bombers attacked Ploiesti. The main effect of the raid was not damage to industrial facilities, which turned out to be extremely small, but the fact that in Berlin they were seriously concerned about the safety of their source of black gold. Under the leadership of General Alfred Gerstenberg, who headed the Luftwaffe mission in Romania since 1938, one of the most powerful air defense systems in Europe was built in this country. It included hundreds of large and small caliber guns, as well as the 52 fighter Bf-109 and Bf-110 plus a number of Romanian fighters IAR 80.



The main burden of the new raid was to be laid on the ninth and eighth US air armies. It was supposed to go to the target at a low altitude, so as not to be detected by German radars. Since we had to start from the Libyan Benghazi, engineers had the problem of increasing the capacity of fuel tanks to 3100 liters by reducing the bomb load. It was supposed to cross the Mediterranean and the Adriatic Sea, pass over the Greek Corfu, Albania and Yugoslavia, while not falling into the reconnaissance stations of the Germans, located in southern Greece. The mission of the American pilots seemed to be frankly suicidal, even for their own command, which fully allowed more than 50% of vehicles to die during the mission.



Early in the morning of August 1, 177 bombers took off from Libyan airfields and headed for Romania. Along the way, the Americans were waiting for numerous breakdowns, navigation errors and other non-combat troubles. Nevertheless, the aircraft, for the most part, achieved their goals. Bombs dropped from low altitudes, in an instant turned Romanian oil facilities into a sea of ​​fire. Clouds of fire and smoke climbed hundreds of meters. The distance to the ground was so small that the arrows of the bombers engaged in direct firefights with anti-aircraft gunners. The few photographs of the raid that have come down to our days are quite eloquent.



As a result of the raid, the United States lost 53 vehicles and 660 crew members, of which 310 were killed in battle, 108 captured, 78 interned in Turkey, and 4 fell to the Yugoslav partisans. The fate of the cars was also very different. Some of them remained lying on the Romanian fields, a few fell into the Mediterranean, 15 bombers were shot down by the Bulgarian Air Force.



The effect of the bombing was very controversial. Modern historians here differ in their estimates. Some claim that the Romanian oil industry has not recovered from the strike until the end of the war. Others report that after a hastily produced restoration, the yield of raw materials has even increased, which generally casts doubt on the meaning of the raid.



In memory of those events in our day, October 15 2015, the operation “Tidal Wave 2” was also carried out by the Americans against the oil infrastructure, but already as part of the campaign of military and economic isolation of the Islamic State (ISIL) prohibited in Russia. The effect of this raid was also very controversial. As is known, the oil infrastructure of ISIL is successfully functioning to this day.
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  1. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 6 January 2017 07: 34
    +2
    .................................................
    ..
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 6 January 2017 08: 04
      +1
      The official history of the US Air Force notes: “In mid-October 1943, the daytime bombing campaign reached a crisis point. Losses during their implementation increased, which became alarming, while successes were dubious ... At that moment, the 8th Air Army lost its air superiority over German territory. ”Http://inosmi.ru/world/20130810/2116832
      65.html
    2. Razvedka_Boem
      Razvedka_Boem 8 January 2017 11: 43
      +1
      Early in the morning of August 1, 177 bombers

      In the chronicle they said about 165 bombers.
  2. bionik
    bionik 6 January 2017 08: 59
    +2
    View of the Standard and Astra Romana refineries in Ploiesti
  3. bionik
    bionik 6 January 2017 09: 02
    +5
    Burning tanks at the Columbia Aquila refinery in the Romanian city of Ploiesti after the raid of the American B-24 Libereitor bombers on August 1, 1943. Some factory buildings are camouflaged. The Tidal Wave operation, in which the 44th, 93rd and 389th bombing groups of the 8th Air Army participated, not only broke the record for flight range, but also became the first mass raid since the beginning of the war heavy four-engine bombers on target in low-flying. The flight altitude during the bombing averaged about 140 m. As a result of the raid, the total volume of Ploiesti refineries was reduced by more than half and amounted to only 46% of the previous volume.
  4. bionik
    bionik 6 January 2017 09: 15
    +5
    The fate of the cars was also very different. Some of them remained lying on the Romanian fieldsAn American B-24 bomber, shot down and made an emergency landing in Romania, during the operation of the 8th air force of the US Air Force (8th air force) "Tidal wave" (Tidal wave).There is a high degree of probability that we have before us the B-24D 41-23782 Boiler Maker II, who made an emergency landing on a corn field in the Ploiesti area. After its repair in December 1943, it was transferred to the IAR factory airfield in Brasov, where it was used for training German and Romanian fighters.
  5. Ham
    Ham 6 January 2017 10: 00
    +10
    The Americans smashed Romanian oil fields in 44, when Romania had already left the war and there were no Germans there ...
    but it was known that Romania would enter the zone of Soviet occupation;) the same is by the way as with the Czechoslovak factories and other industrial centers in the zone of Soviet occupation - so that the "allies" would not get it
    1. veteran66
      veteran66 6 January 2017 14: 01
      +1
      Quote: Ham
      The Americans smashed Romanian oil fields in 44,

      I looked through a lot of sources about the bombing of the Ploiesti oil fields, but except for the attacks of the Red Army Air Force in the 41st and the US Air Force in the 43rd I did not find anything, do not tell me where to get information about this. Moreover, since August 1944, Romania seems to have been an ally.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 6 January 2017 14: 21
        +4
        Comrade Hams just lied
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 6 January 2017 14: 37
          +1
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Comrade Hams just lied

          somewhere in the back of my mind there was such a suspicion, but I thought that I just did not know.
        2. Ham
          Ham 6 January 2017 15: 55
          0
          http://www.roconsulboston.com/Pages/InfoPages/Plo
          estiFrstPersn.html
          by the way, about 5 years ago, infa was on the wafflepedia;) but now it's gone ... but there was a shnyaga about the "barbarian bombing of Tallinn" ...
          1. Ham
            Ham 6 January 2017 16: 00
            0
            I’ll throw it to you - gentlemen-comrades ...
          2. veteran66
            veteran66 6 January 2017 16: 16
            +1
            Quote: Ham
            http://www.roconsulboston.com/Pages/InfoPages/Plo
            estiFrstPersn.html

            Quote: Ham
            I’ll throw it to you - gentlemen-comrades ...

            the link is broken, but I found confirmation of these bombings, although your conclusions smack of juggling, sir.
            1. Ham
              Ham 6 January 2017 17: 36
              +1
              the link is not broken it must be entered completely; it is long and does not fit on one line ... this is the first source in Romanian from the Romanians themselves;) google translator to help ...
              if you look GOOD you can find others ...
              in general, to draw information on wafflepedia is a shame ....
              1. veteran66
                veteran66 6 January 2017 17: 42
                +1
                Quote: Ham
                if you look GOOD you can find others ...

                Yes, I found, do not be nervous))
                Quote: Ham
                in general, to draw information on wafflepedia is a shame ....

                and not on Wikipedia, it’s you who referred to it, actually
                By the way, about 5 years ago, infa was on wafflepedia;)
        3. veteran66
          veteran66 6 January 2017 16: 14
          +2
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Comrade Hams just lied

          Have not found:
          In April 1944, the 15th IA dealt a crushing blow to the Ploiesti oil fields in Romania
          the result:
          Production of aviation gasoline fell to 10 thousand tons, while the minimum monthly demand for fascist German air forces was 160 thousand tons.

          But here the question was not about the seizure of the Red Army crafts, but about a real reduction in the production of aviation gasoline, before the defeat of Romania there was still almost half a year.
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 6 January 2017 17: 39
            +1
            Quote from Okoroka - "The Americans blew the Romanian oil fields to smithereens in 44, when Romania had already left the war"
            Not a word of truth request
            1. Ham
              Ham 6 January 2017 19: 22
              0
              please prove?
          2. Ham
            Ham 6 January 2017 17: 39
            0
            "" there was still almost six months before the defeat of Romania ""
            Romania had already "withdrew" to the USSR following the results of Tehran-43 ... and by this time the Red Army was on the territory of Romania and oil supplies to Germany fell sharply ... the Germans at that time received the bulk of fuel "synthetics" ... these bombings which you mention they happened BEFORE
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 6 January 2017 17: 56
              +2
              According to the results of Conference-43, V. Prussia (Kaliningrad Region) withdrew to the USSR - that's it! Which, however, did not stop the Allies from bombing her until the end of the war. request US bombed oil fields until August 44th - until this time, our troops did not control them
  6. parusnik
    parusnik 6 January 2017 11: 14
    0
    The effect of the bombing was very controversial. Modern historians here differ in their estimates. Some claim that the Romanian oil industry has not recovered from the strike until the end of the war. Others report that after a hastily produced restoration, the yield of raw materials has even increased, which generally casts doubt on the meaning of the raid.
    ... And what is there to argue about efficiency when, almost a year later, the operation "Tidal Wave", and especially after the successful completion of the Iassy-Kishinev operation, the troops of the 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian fronts launched a vigorous offensive in the central part of Romania and on the approaches to Bulgaria .:
    August 23, 1944 - Antonescu was arrested by order of King Mihai I.
    August 24, 1944 - Romania announced its withdrawal from the war.
    August 31, 1944 - Soviet troops entered Bucharest.
    September 12, 1944 - Romania signed an agreement to join the anti-Hitler coalition.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 6 January 2017 13: 14
      +4
      and by the spring of 43, almost all the supporters of the fascists in the army of Romania ("the vanguard of the Romanian nation") were laid in the Don steppes by the Buryats and Kazakhs.
  7. bug_1
    bug_1 6 January 2017 11: 53
    +3
    So what about the whole war, did our vaunted falconers, the mustachioed? cabbage soup clawed ... shame .. farther than 100 km from the front line did not fly .... what is it? stupidity? cowardice? failure to? who has the answer to my question .. even mellentin wrote that during the whole war the German ground forces felt safe already at a distance of 60 km from the front line .. and now compare how the same chances moved to Normandy in the 44th .. !!! ! feel the difference ... what did ours do all the time?
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 6 January 2017 13: 11
      +4
      the giant of thought knows better where the "mustache pilots" flew !!!
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 6 January 2017 15: 11
      +5
      Bug1. I didn’t read Melentin, but as I know in July-August 1941, a regiment under the command of Preobrazhensky bombed Berlin, in 1942 we had no time for long-range air strikes, and then an ADD was formed just for such purposes. Another thing is that we did not have enough modern Long-Range bombers. TB3 is not suitable for this, but ILs or that near range
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 6 January 2017 23: 26
        0
        The "workhorses" of ADD were Il-4 (DB-3F), Er-2 (but there were few of them), PE-8 (TB-7, even less), Li-2 and B-25 Mitchell! The composition at the end of the war -
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 7 January 2017 10: 33
          +1
          Quote: hohol95
          ADD's "workhorses" were

          and if we take into account that the IL-4 was already outdated by the beginning of the war, the ER-2 practically did not fly due to problems with the unfinished Charomsky diesels, and the Li-2 and B-25 were non-core aircraft (the first was a transporter, and the second a front bomber, as a result, they took fewer bombs to increase the fuel supply and there was no PNO), then in general the picture is dull
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 7 January 2017 16: 03
            0
            We flew what we did ourselves and what we gave through the lend-lease! Neither the B-17, nor the B-24, nor the Halifaxes offered our allies to help us!
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 7 January 2017 22: 33
              +1
              Quote: hohol95
              Neither the B-17, nor the B-24, nor the Halifaxes offered our allies to help us!

              B-24 was offered, but without PNO, and why did we need it without PNO? Halifax was aglitsky, and Lend-Lease was American.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 7 January 2017 23: 07
                0
                And from whom did we get the other English equipment from the "Firebringers" (Spitfires)? From the Americans?
                1. veteran66
                  veteran66 7 January 2017 23: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: hohol95
                  And "Firebugs" (Spitfires) from whom we received

                  so for denyuzhki, and we didn’t have enough for bombers
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 8 January 2017 00: 03
                    0
                    Already on LEND LISA! For the money received the first Hurricanes! In 1941, the Americans were waiting for the fall of Moscow and demanded payment immediately! But the bombers simply did not give! Itself was not enough! Do you think that we would buy Hepdenes for money? They were used in the north. I personally doubt it!
                    1. veteran66
                      veteran66 8 January 2017 11: 57
                      +1
                      Quote: hohol95
                      But the bombers simply did not give! Itself was not enough! Do you think that we would buy Hepdenes for money?

                      If it were pressed, and we didn’t have a similar long-range torpedo bomber and reconnaissance aircraft, we would have bought it. But Lend-Lease deliveries provided the recipient with the choice of the necessary equipment and weapons, so that we could receive strategic bombers, by the way, the B-24 was delivered to us for testing, but the commission's conclusion was as follows:
                      The bombing of Germany’s deep rear areas with large expenditures of resources did not have an immediate and direct impact on affairs on the Soviet-German front.
                      Moreover, the Allies were engaged in the destruction of German infrastructure on such a scale that the Soviet Union could not have the desire to join in such events. In the end, our Air Force experienced a greater shortage of fighters, attack aircraft and front-line bombers.
                      And yes, you’re right, the USA and Great Britain themselves didn’t have enough such planes, not a single normal country would deal with deliveries to their own detriment.
    3. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 6 January 2017 16: 51
      +3
      They flew, although not many, but it was. Here is an excerpt:
      “Twice Hero of the Soviet Union A. I. Molodchiy figuratively tells about one raid on Berlin on the night of 27 August 1942 in his memoirs:“ Again, as during the flight to Konigsberg, a thunderstorm front blocks our way ... The plane throws so that I can hardly hold the steering wheel. We are thrown up, then thrown down, and we seem to fall into a black abyss. [78] Despite the sub-zero temperature, I am wet with sweat. This went on for about three hours.

      ... The observation posts of the enemy, apparently, worked clearly: the blades of hundreds of searchlights immediately crash into the sky, anti-aircraft shells begin to burst around the bomber.

      ... It’s hot in the cabin, sweat floods my eyes, it seems that there is not enough oxygen. And around the stockade of fire. Blind the rays of the spotlights. Despite everything, I am going forward. At the same time I try to break out of the tenacious tentacles of searchlights. Height 6300 meters. It's a pity to lose, but there's nothing to be done. I sharply put the plane on the wing. Roll-20,40, 60 degrees. An unpleasant whistle is added to the hum of the engines, the plane glides onto the wing, almost falls. This unacceptable (in peacetime even without bombs) maneuver succeeds - the searchlights missed us. But we also lost about 1000 meters in height.

      “I see the goal,” the navigator reports. - Become on a combat course! We again catch spotlights. It is impossible to count how many of them.

      ... - Let's go! - the navigator shouts, and the triumph of victory is heard in his voice. Heavy bombs rushed down ... Hundreds of guns fired on the plane. I throw the car to the side, increase the speed to the limit, but I can’t escape from the firing zone. “They will knock you down, bastards,” a thought crashes into the brain. “Have time to at least radiate at the KP about the assignment.”

      - Sasha! - I turn to the radio operator Panfilov. - Pass it to the ground: “Moscow, the Kremlin, to Comrade Stalin. We are located above Berlin. The task was completed. "

      Suddenly anti-aircraft guns cease fire. Not for nothing. So, fighters appeared nearby.

      - On the right above us are the Messers! - reports the shooter.

      I make a maneuver. The shooters are firing furiously at the fascist fighters. I can’t even believe that after such a scrape, all the devices are working normally. We are safely leaving ... After 10 hours of flight, we will land. "{39}"
    4. 97110
      97110 6 January 2017 20: 12
      +3
      Quote: bug_1
      what did ours do all the time?

      Nothing is known about yours. Maybe they are not at all. And there never was. And ours and Berlin in 1941 were bombed. And Europe in 1945, and Japan in 1945 ... Yes, something was inspired by me inappropriately. Troll - come out !!!
    5. hohol95
      hohol95 7 January 2017 13: 41
      +1
      Particularly impudent in design and effective according to the results of the raid was undertaken in the evening of July 13. Six Pe 2 planes from the 5th squadron of the 40th cap of the captain A.P. Tsurtsumiy, passing over Romanian territory more than 250 km at an altitude of 7 thousand meters, quietly approached the target, so that the Romanian fighters did not have time to get up from the airfield in a timely manner , and anti-aircraft guns opened fire only when the planes moved away from the target. As a result of the bombing, a fire broke out, two factory buildings were completely destroyed, 202 fuel tanks, 46 oil tanks, 2 warehouses were destroyed. Oil refining volumes immediately decreased by approximately 12–15%. The giant glow above the Unirea refinery hung for three days. For a long time, the Orion and Astra-Romania refineries failed.
      This blow forced the German and Romanian command to take decisive and original measures. Considering that due to serious losses, Soviet aircraft switched to night flights only, the Germans built three false Ploiesti (60, 30 and 7 km from the city) from cardboard, wood and sand at the expense of Romanian funds. The entire system of streets, oil refineries and distillation plants and industrial enterprises was made in full size, but with a decrease in buildings in height. In the area of ​​the false factories, pits were dug with a diameter corresponding to actual tanks, which were filled with crude oil, ignited by electrical contact and extinguished after a raid with a special asbestos cover using an automatic device. All the electric bulbs were connected to the control panel, on which a specialist worked, subordinate to the commandant of the air defense division.
    6. Razvedka_Boem
      Razvedka_Boem 8 January 2017 11: 53
      +2
      So what about the whole war, did our vaunted falconers, the mustachioed? cabbage soup clawed slap .. disgrace ..

      It is not necessary to check. And so disparagingly about Soviet pilots is also not worth talking about.
      For starters, you should know the characteristics of the aircraft. The emphasis of the USSR was on fighters, attack aircraft and twin-engine bombers, and the bomb load of the Pe-2 was completely insufficient.
      The Americans, on the other hand, developed heavy bomber aircraft, which, by the way, is precisely why their fighters are so large and heavy, since they had to accompany the bombers.
      Until the very end of the war, the USSR did not bother with strategic bombing, since the available Pe-8s were completely insufficient and they did not play a special role.
    7. Visitor
      Visitor 10 January 2017 08: 06
      0
      Look in the Internet, "ours" bombed Berlin already in 1941. With a small number of cars, the raids were more of a propaganda than a purely military one, but the fact took place.
    8. Visitor
      Visitor 10 January 2017 08: 07
      0
      Look in the Internet, "ours" bombed Berlin already in 1941. With a small number of cars, the raids were more of a propaganda than a purely military one, but the fact took place.
  8. L10n77
    L10n77 6 January 2017 12: 11
    +6
    Quote: bug_1
    So what about the whole war, did our vaunted falconers, the mustachioed? cabbage soup clawed ... shame .. farther than 100 km from the front line did not fly .... what is it? stupidity? cowardice? failure to? who has the answer to my question .. even mellentin wrote that during the whole war the German ground forces felt safe already at a distance of 60 km from the front line .. and now compare how the same chances moved to Normandy in the 44th .. !!! ! feel the difference ... what did ours do all the time?

    What kind of nonsense, in fact, our aviation was engaged in business, not populism like American and English, from these raids on Ploiesti, Dresden there was 0 point, hell of a tenth, but they didn’t fly further than 100 km, as they did and bombed the deep rear and concentration of troops.
    1. bionik
      bionik 6 January 2017 12: 40
      +3
      Quote: L10n77
      Quote: bug_1
      So what about the whole war, did our vaunted falconers, the mustachioed?

      What nonsense.

      Of course bullshit, for example, our long-range aviation bombed Berlin in August 1941. (The Nazis attributed our first bombing to British pilots)
      1. veteran66
        veteran66 6 January 2017 14: 03
        +2
        Quote: bionik
        our long-range aviation back in August 1941 bombed Berlin.

        three planes? What about the effect?
        1. bionik
          bionik 6 January 2017 14: 46
          +2
          Quote: veteran66

          three planes? What about the effect?

          The effect in terms of damage is of course almost 0, the main thing here is that they could, that is, the effect is purely propaganda.
          1. veteran66
            veteran66 6 January 2017 15: 04
            +1
            Quote: bionik
            purely propaganda effect

            and it was not there, Goebbels' propaganda trumpeted that it was the "English pigs" who had done ... Perhaps at that difficult time for our citizens, but this effect quickly faded away against the backdrop of the defeats of the Red Army in 41
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 6 January 2017 23: 29
              0
              "Affect" came from Goering after the British declared that they were not their planes!
              1. veteran66
                veteran66 7 January 2017 10: 34
                +1
                Quote: hohol95
                after the statements by the British that these were not their planes!

                yes who heard them except the top
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 8 January 2017 17: 16
                  0
                  On August 8, Berlin radio reported: "On the night of August 7-8, large British aviation forces, in the amount of 150 aircraft, tried to bomb our capital ... Of the 15 aircraft that broke through to the city, 9 were shot down, and they will soon be put on public display."
                  In response, the BBC said: "The German message about the bombing of Berlin is interesting and mysterious, since on August 7-8, British aircraft did not fly over Berlin."
                  The point in the dispute was put by the Sovinformburo report on the successful Soviet air raid on Berlin.
                  Goering's phrase of 1939 - Translation: "If (even) one English plane can penetrate our air defense system, if one single bomb falls on Berlin, then I will be called Mayer" !!! And in 1941 it was not only English that fell ...
    2. veteran66
      veteran66 6 January 2017 14: 20
      +1
      Quote: L10n77
      What kind of nonsense, in fact, our aviation was engaged in business, and not populism like American and English

      two extreme points of view. The argument is pointless. The Red Army Air Force did not have enough strategic bombers, what was not counted, and even though they bombed the deep rear, the effect was small. And the US Air Force bombed a lot and effectively, and even in the interests of the Red Army. Everyone did their job.
      1. Monarchist
        Monarchist 6 January 2017 15: 17
        0
        Veteran66. Please tell me where the Americans effectively bombed the distant rear in the interests of the Red Army? I heard about it on the radio, but very little.
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 6 January 2017 15: 29
          +3
          Quote: Monarchist
          where did the Americans effectively bomb the distant rear in the interests of the Red Army?

          offhand
          On April 4, 1944, American aviation attempted to impede Operation 60 (the evacuation of the Romanian-German forces from Crimea).
          and also read about shuttle flights to Poltava - an air base in the UK. There were also raid arrangements when the Red Army advanced in Europe. I read in the memoirs of our commanders, but I don’t remember exactly which ones.
          1. 97110
            97110 6 January 2017 20: 19
            0
            Quote: veteran66
            I read in the memoirs of our commanders, but I don’t remember exactly which ones.

            how effectively our allies in Yugoslavia bombed. Well, you puffed up on the Red Army shit? This bug is a month on the site, an obvious troll. I did not expect from you.
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 6 January 2017 22: 03
              +1
              Quote: 97110
              how effectively our allies in Yugoslavia bombed.

              there was this near the city of Niš, if sclerosis does not change me.
              Quote: 97110
              Well, you puffed up on the Red Army shit?

              where?
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 6 January 2017 23: 32
        0
        So did the Yankees aim at Tokyo Doolittle's Raid NOT FOR POPULISM?
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 7 January 2017 10: 09
          +1
          Quote: hohol95
          Did Doolittle Raid Aim NOT FOR POPULISM?

          this component was there, but the damage was good, it was worse with Berlin and Koenigsberg.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 7 January 2017 11: 47
            0
            Bombing a paper-and-paper city is not the same as bombing a city with stone buildings!
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 7 January 2017 22: 45
              +1
              Quote: hohol95
              Bombing a paper and paper city is not the same.

              What are you doing?
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 7 January 2017 23: 12
                0
                Tokyo was strikingly different from Berlin and especially from Koenigsberg in the material of building construction! And at the same time it is claimed that only 50 people died during the Doolittle raid! By the way, those B-25Bs carried only 4 bombs of 227 kg (2 high-explosive fragmentation + 2 cluster bombs with incendiary elements)! And many crews due to low altitude and fear of being shot down by air defense reports indicated that they did not observe where their bombs fell!
                1. veteran66
                  veteran66 7 January 2017 23: 26
                  +1
                  Quote: hohol95
                  Tokyo was strikingly different from Berlin and especially from Koenigsberg in the material of building construction!

                  so unlike ours, the Americans bombed industrial production, not cities with a population (this is me about the Doolittle raid)
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 8 January 2017 23: 07
                    0
                    4 bombs of 227 kg (2 high-explosive fragmentation + 2 cluster bombs with incendiary elements)! By this they brought down the power of the military-industrial complex of the Empire of the Sun?
                  2. revnagan
                    revnagan 9 January 2017 19: 03
                    0
                    Quote: veteran66
                    unlike ours, the Americans bombed industrial production, not cities with a population

                    The tragedy of Dresden-just refutes your words.
                    1. tlauicol
                      tlauicol 10 January 2017 05: 21
                      +1
                      Have you read it carefully? : "unlike ours, the Americans bombed industrial production, not cities with populations (I'm talking about Doolittle's raid)"
                      Or just pulled out of context a convenient phrase?
                  3. Outsider V.
                    Outsider V. 3 August 2017 22: 53
                    0
                    Quote: veteran66
                    unlike ours, the Americans bombed industrial production, not cities with a population


                    Um, what about the bombing of Dresden in February 1945 (from 25 thousand dead)? And the bombing of Tokyo by napalm on March 10, 1945 (in the order of 100 thousand dead)?
    3. tlauicol
      tlauicol 6 January 2017 18: 12
      +7
      It's a good populism to gather almost 2000 pilots and tell them: “There is an important task, guys! one way. And now for cars! "These people brought in their bomb bays corn cobs, cut down by the screws of 4-engine bombers and up to 365 holes! They bombed oil refineries from 15 meters and broke out, because fuel was pouring out of their punctured tanks, and you say "populism"!

      you don’t need to love Americans (I don’t know if you can love them for anything at all), but you shouldn’t say that they are populists, cowards or fools.
      1. 97110
        97110 6 January 2017 20: 30
        0
        Quote: Tlauicol
        to say that they are populists, cowards or fools is not worth it.

        Next article about the Volga water. Did not read? Are you even ashamed of our grandfathers (you probably already have great-grandfather?). These non-populists, cowards or fools won the war, they adapted the world to cancer and have been using it for 70 years, having lost less than half of the PISKAREVSKY Cemetery! ONE OF LENINGRAD! And you do not see this? Pray for Uncle Sam. You need to be able to do this, so pay for your profits with other people's lives. Maybe you will succeed, still contrive. They died in Korea, and in Vietnam. Do you know the number of dead Vietnamese and them you revered?
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 6 January 2017 22: 12
          +3
          Quote: 97110
          Are you even ashamed of our grandfathers (you probably already have great-grandfather?). These non-populists, cowards or fools won the war, they adapted the world to cancer and have been using it for 70 years, having lost less than half of the PISKAREVSKY Cemetery!

          why did you cling to what you argue about? What does the soldiers, officers and generals and their governments have to do with it? Yes, and the techniques are from the ideological department of the CPSU, as soon as it comes to the lack of control, they immediately hide behind the heroism of the people, are proud of huge losses
          Quote: 97110
          having lost less than half the PISKAREVSKY cemetery!

          it needs to be proud! As for the Americans, they also had their heroes in that war, in Korea, and in Vietnam, and it was not their fault that we consider this war unfair, they defended the interests of their country, just as we did.
          1. 97110
            97110 7 January 2017 12: 33
            0
            Quote: veteran66
            they defended the interests of their country, just as we did.

            But we, with the habit of basting cabbage soup, slurped us. I couldn’t do anything at all and should be silent in a rag? This bug at least honestly pours slops on the Stalinist falcons. Like, no one is against the Americans, and there’s no way to call us. Well, come on, exercise further. If not ashamed, if your own did not die in the war ...
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 7 January 2017 15: 09
              +1
              Quote: 97110
              And we, with the habit of basting cabbage soup, slurped us.

              well, it may be your thoughts and I have nothing to "hang" them, I don't think so
              1. 97110
                97110 7 January 2017 21: 44
                0
                Quote: veteran66
                well, it may be your thoughts and I have nothing to "hang" them, I don't think so

                Yes, these are my thoughts. Only torn from the text. That is not the point. You read the delight of the bug about you. (next comment). The man who calls us the herd admires you. Doesn't bother?
                1. veteran66
                  veteran66 7 January 2017 22: 34
                  +2
                  Quote: 97110
                  Doesn't bother?

                  I'm more concerned about people who are proud of the 27 million dead.
          2. bug_1
            bug_1 7 January 2017 14: 18
            +3
            Quote: veteran66
            Quote: 97110
            having lost less than half the PISKAREVSKY cemetery!
            it needs to be proud!

            Bravo!! just bravo .. that's what I’m trying to convey to this herd .... and they’ve got the criterion oh .. victory is the mountains of corpses of our soldiers .. the more the better .. then the victory was more awesome .... and no one it is thought that this is simply a sign of the incompetence of the command, the flawed military tactics and the waged orders of the rate .....
            1. 97110
              97110 7 January 2017 21: 40
              0
              Quote: bug_1
              this is what I am trying to convey to this herd.

              It would not be bad for a superman to consider the discussed time in the context of events at least from the beginning of the century. After the German and civilian, the "herd" was able to build an industry, which was enough for Victory, for creating a nuclear shield, for going into space. The leadership, so hated by you, was able to fight as part of a coalition of the most powerful countries in the world. Either you are not a very smart person, or a secret (I don’t know, maybe an overt) enemy of the Russian people, according to your "herd". Yes, they didn't know how to fight like the Germans. Yes, the American industry was not built. Yes, not like the ocean - the English Channel did not bother to fence themselves off from Germany. It is despicable to take events out of the historical context and accuse, accuse, accuse. You have the opportunity not to make our mistakes, to build a shining city on a hill on Lukashenka's bones. And wave your flag from the top. If you have enough meanness, forget about the payment of the Belarusian people for the Victory. And there is no need to present the Soviet people as a herd. Try with the same prejudice to look at the actions of American soldiers, British, French. They had a huge advantage - while we were dying, they were preparing. Especially the French.
              1. bug_1
                bug_1 7 January 2017 22: 08
                +3
                Yes, I sincerely hate the red camarilla and I think that this was the worst evil that happened to my Empire and my country throughout its history ... even the worst enemy did not bring more evil to Russia and the Empire .. even during the time of turmoil, when it seems that everything was lost and that it was better .... the same camarilla was delayed .. everything ... and the damned stones were destroyed May Empire !!! and I’m not the enemy of Russia and Iperia, but I’m the ardent enemy of stupid cheers-patriots ... people in the eyes - God's dew .... and yet the Red-bellied ones could neither fight nor build normally without rumors with free labor and such degeneracy as collective farms was only with us .. I believe that they burn in hell !!!!
                and the bald ebnashka is not my authority, as well as 99,999% of the population of Belarus ... and by the way, our crystal sasut is rapidly going to the bottom with massive impoverishment of the population and mass migration and the escape from that island of oh lukanomika with salaries of 100-150 dollars maximum ... I hope they have a little left ....
                and the herd, I do not call the people of the country of councils, namely the patriots who are here .. this mass with the manners of political instructors carrying heresy and nonsense, while believers are purely in it .... because of them all the problems ...

                Quote: 97110
                They had a huge advantage - while we were dying, they were preparing

                it's a lie .. just a lie ... the British have been waving alone with the Nazis since June 40th and no one has helped them by military means ... and the USSR, on the contrary, strongly supported the Germans and fed them with all their might ....
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. Visitor
              Visitor 10 January 2017 08: 14
              0
              And also the difference in the content of prisoners of war. There is evidence that the Americans and the British massively heated the stoves of Majdanek and Treblinka?
        2. tlauicol
          tlauicol 7 January 2017 10: 38
          +3
          What did you mean by that? What is the feat of the American, Japanese, New Zealander is not a feat? A feat he is only Russian? And of course, the most important feat is to put 27 million people or to retreat to the Volga, to lose the fleet - is that a feat, measured only by losses? But sailing across the ocean and dying for the interests of the capitalists in a knowingly suicidal operation is populism, right? Not even for his country to die, but just for the honor of the flag is garbage?
          Putting 27 million is a feat, and 300 thousand. it's a shame ! So ?
          1. 97110
            97110 7 January 2017 12: 38
            +1
            Quote: Tlauicol
            Putting 27 million is a feat, and 300 thousand. it's a shame !

            Swiss Jew You. Consider further cents on the dollar. Be ashamed further than our dead. Take an example from ukrov. They also believe that we are the horde, and America is with you. I will never buy your verbal loops. Explain to the children what is good and what is bad should be fathers, not outsiders. Aren't you ashamed of your fathers? In front of grandfathers? Well, the flag is in your hands. He is still Vlasov.
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 7 January 2017 13: 02
              +2
              Well, you understand, I hope
              1. bug_1
                bug_1 7 January 2017 14: 20
                +2
                oh and nevermind myself .. just wrote the same thing to this nearby ... well, then we have the same thoughts!
            2. bug_1
              bug_1 7 January 2017 14: 19
              +1
              DBL BLD !!!!!!!!!!!
              this is a clinic ...
        3. bug_1
          bug_1 7 January 2017 14: 16
          +1
          Quote: 97110
          Next article about the Volga water. Did not read? Are you even ashamed of our grandfathers (you probably already have great-grandfather?). These non-populists, cowards or fools won the war, they adapted the world to cancer and have been using it for 70 years, having lost less than half of the PISKAREVSKY Cemetery! ONE OF LENINGRAD! And you do not see this? Pray for Uncle Sam. You need to be able to do this, so pay for your profits with other people's lives. Maybe you will succeed, still contrive. They died in Korea, and in Vietnam. Do you know the number of dead Vietnamese and them you revered?


          so why drive it to the Yankees? they are great ... they fought just fine ... it’s our generals who haven’t learned rams and the top leadership drove millions to slaughter .. and they fought like guys ... and their undoubted merit is that they accomplished all their tasks, put a minimum of their people .. our cannibals scourges were never considered to be losses and drove the soldiers to slaughter .. yes to slaughter .... and all of you here are homegrown clever fighters (not all but% 80 of the distant enemies of hurray-patriots because of which some troubles have Empires were and will be) do not understand absolutely nothing in war and hostilities like the Reds are the same .. you still herd think that war is the extermination of the enemy on the battlefield .. right on the clausewitz .... so here you are the herd and if God forbid, in our Imperial Army the same narrow-minded rams are a matter of seams .... you would, at least for the sake of raising your mind and general development, read Sun Tzu or Lidle Gart .... flock what can I say ...
          1. Nikolay Bylkov
            Nikolay Bylkov 17 February 2018 07: 40
            0
            Quote: bug_1
            generals and senior management drove millions to slaughter

            Communism is a red fascism, and therefore all ordinary people for the leadership of this gang of terrorists who captured Russia in 1917 according to the plans of world Zionism, were powerless slaves. Power rested on three pillars - total violence, total fear and total lie. because the losses are so total - the slaves have neither spirit nor creativity. All the achievements of scientific and technological progress in the USSR due to the work of special services or the purchase of technology. Equipment for toilet paper purchased abroad. All the nonsense about a nuclear bomb is for fools. It was built according to the drawings and instructions of American scientists - read the book "My Father Lavrenty Beria". The entire military and economic power of the USSR was based on the bones and blood of tens of millions of Soviet people — slaves who were dying from overwork and a miserable way of life.
            PS. Everyone who wants to know the truth:
            From Libava to Luga. Or mud over the tanks ...
            http://ingria-art.livejournal.com/367032.html

            Baltic Tsushima
            http://ingria-art.livejournal.com/386540.html

            Baltic 1941. Beating “babies”
            http://ingria-art.livejournal.com/369946.html

            The summer of 1941. The battle over the southwestern approaches to Ingria
            http://ingria-art.livejournal.com/362779.html

            Purely Russian murder
            http://ingria-art.livejournal.com/401347.html

            Ingria. June 25, 1941 ... (strike on the Finns)
            http://ingria-art.livejournal.com/358234.html

            Once again about the juggling methods in the modern official figures of the losses of the Red Army.
            http://waldemar-betz.livejournal.com/186752.html

            Kursk Bulge
            Fraud in the loss of people and aircraft
            http://ledokol-ru.livejournal.com/462215.html

            Landing in Mercule
            http://kotsubinsky.livejournal.com/292794.html

            Fraud with the number of tanks (On the reproduction of tanks cabinet method)
            http://miroved.livejournal.com/73119.html
            http://poteri-sssr.livejournal.com/14276.html

            Ranili - take care of yourself ("Thank you grandfather for the victory!" On the fate of the wounded Red Army soldiers. One of the most terrible documents about the war ..)
            http://kotsubinsky.livejournal.com/321710.html

            Detachment detachments (Soldiers are not trained? Do not attack? Put machine guns behind !! And on the backs !!! For science !!! ...)
            http://archive.li/EljUv

            Losses of the Red Army 1941 (Do not like the losses of 1941? No problem - fix!)
            http://islamecology.livejournal.com/2213039.html

            Air losses (war in the air, loss comparison, second civilian)
            http://rus-vopros.livejournal.com/3957103.html

            Luftwaffe casualties on the Eastern Front
            http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/germloss/
            germloss.html

            Who defeated Hitler?
            (about land lease)
            http://www.solonin.org/article_kto-pobedil-gitler
            a

            PPS Being a cadet of Kachi and while serving in the combat regiment, sometimes very interesting documents were sent to us for review. I have always been interested in the modern experience of combat operations in aviation and air defense, both in Vietnam and in the Middle East, and therefore I confirm everything described below, since we, military pilots, are familiar with the overview of those air battles in Syria and Lebanon. And again, the losses are similar and comparable with the period of the Second World War, and not in our favor.

            "Israel-Lebanon-USSR-Syria. Massacre: Air Battle June 9-11, 1982."
            http://grimnir74.livejournal.com/4980388.html
  9. antivirus
    antivirus 6 January 2017 13: 09
    +4
    15 bombers were shot down by the Bulgarian Air Force.
    I wonder how it is now covered, mentioned in the United States and Blargary?
  10. Monarchist
    Monarchist 6 January 2017 14: 56
    +2
    I can’t say anything about the bombing of the oil towers of the Barmalei, but about the bombing of Romanian oil: under the Union, in the newspapers I read somewhere, the damage was significant and even taking into account the heavy losses it was estimated as successful
  11. The comment was deleted.