Military Review

The pawn is not the queen

116
On December 22 falls the start date of the flight tests of another famous Soviet aircraft, more precisely, its predecessor. On this day, the 1939 of the year for the first time took off the high-altitude twin-engine fighter, the VI-100, also known as the "weaving" designed by the Spetstekhotdel (abbreviated as STO, hence the digital machine index) of the NKVD, in which the imprisoned "enemies of the people" worked under the direction of the pest and saboteur "V.M. Petlyakova. To provide high-altitude and raise the working ceiling to 12 kilometers, the car was equipped with pressure cabins and turbo-compressors.








The prototype fighter VI-100. In exact accordance with the "theory of Tupolev" - a beautiful car.

In the spring of 1940, the views of the Soviet leadership on the future war changed. The bosses decided that a long-range high-altitude interceptor would not be needed on it, but it would need a high-speed diving bomber in large quantities. Petlyakov was given the command to urgently remake the car, and they took only six weeks to work. To simplify and reduce the cost of construction, the turbocompressors and pressurized cabs were required to be abandoned, which is why the ceiling of the car fell from 12200 to 8700 meters, but it was considered sufficient for a divemaker. However, there were no reliable and reliable turbochargers in the USSR anyway.

In June 1940, the aircraft under the new index PB-100, subsequently replaced by the Pe-2, was adopted and put into mass production at the Moscow aircraft plant No. 22. It was produced throughout the war, first in Moscow, and then in Kazan, becoming the most massive Soviet bomber, despite a number of serious shortcomings that reduced its effectiveness. In my opinion, betting on this car turned out to be one of the biggest mistakes of the Red Army command in the field of development aviation, and this error has not been fixed.

Pe-2 in all respects, except for a small advantage in maximum speed, lost to the Arkhangelsk Ar-2 bomber. But it was precisely this small advantage that was the decisive argument in favor of the Petlyakov machine, despite the shorter flight range, lower ceiling, lower bomb load and much higher piloting complexity compared to the Ap 2. Sometimes it seems that the then Soviet "leaders" in relation to aviation (and not only that) had a kind of "speed fetishism." It was believed that a faster car is anyway better slower, and no matter what price this advantage is bought.

The "weave" and the Pe-2 have a higher speed than the Ap-2, the speed was ensured by the use of a special laminated wing profile, which has less aerodynamic resistance, but at the same time has the worst aerodynamic quality at low speeds, which made the aircraft very dangerous takeoff and landing. Especially if a pilot was sitting in the cockpit of no higher than average. “Pawns” often fought during the landing approach, and only the most experienced pilots were allowed to take off with a maximum bomb load of one ton. The rest took only 500-600 kg, which was a ridiculously low value for a twin-engine bomber. In this case, the Ap-2 standard bomb load was one and a half tons.

Pe-2 on tests reached the speed of 540 km / h, Ap-2 - 512 km / h. This difference looks good in the TTX tables, however, in practice it didn’t matter, because the maximum mass speed of the German fighter Bf.109F at the start of the war reached 620 km / h, and that of Bf.1942G that appeared in 109 year - 640 km / h Thus, both of them without any problems caught up with both the "arch" and the "pawn".

The Pe-2 looks even less advantageous against the background of Tupolev's Tu-2 front bomber that appeared a little later, with which the “pawn” was fundamentally losing in all respects, which was why it was removed from production immediately after the end of the war. 2 continued to be produced and remained in the ranks for another five years. However, during the war "pawns" nashtampovali more than 11 thousands, and the Tu-2 - just 800. And this, in general, is not at all happy.



Pe-2 model 1941 of the year on the ski chassis.



Pe-2 model 1942 of the year (Pe-2FT) in winter and summer camouflage.
Author:
Originator:
http://vikond65.livejournal.com/575319.html
116 comments
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  1. alekc73
    alekc73 1 January 2017 08: 13
    +14
    The PE-2 bomb carrier was hastily converted into a high-altitude fighter, then into a dive bomber. Hence all the problems. These throwings did not lead to good.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 1 January 2017 09: 26
      +4
      Quote: alekc73
      The PE-2 bomb carrier was hastily converted into a high-altitude fighter, then into a dive bomber. Hence all the problems. These throwings did not lead to good.

      And in what high-altitude fighter did they convert the Pe-2? !!! It’s so awesome that the commentator was also not sickly. He met New Year.
      1. alekc73
        alekc73 1 January 2017 09: 42
        +2
        PE-3- respected
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 1 January 2017 09: 50
          +10
          Dear, you come to your senses, correct your health there with a glass of mineral water, or something. It follows your writings that it turns out: first they made the Pe-2 (bomb carrier), then they made a high-altitude fighter Pe-3 from it (he never really was, Well, these are trifles) then from Pe-3 they DID a dive bomber !!!!! This I draw conclusions from your comments.
          Really switch to mineral water, otherwise it feels like it really flattens you. No apologies.
          1. alekc73
            alekc73 1 January 2017 13: 41
            +16
            The "100" was designed as a high-altitude, long-range escort fighter. Then it was converted into a Pe-2 dive bomber. The war began and it became clear that a long-range fighter was needed. From the Pe-2 bomb carrier, the Pe-3 fighter was made. As the Pe-3 fighter was unsuccessful. As a Pe-2 dive bomber. -XNUMX is also not very. Difficult on landing, high landing speed, low bomb load. Wrong wing profile and many other subtleties why.
            I celebrated the New Year in Russian, but not so much that I was rude. hi
          2. 210ox
            210ox 1 January 2017 16: 27
            +3
            Well, you are starting the New Year so aggressively .. Everyone has their own opinion ..
            Quote: Fitter65
            Dear, you come to your senses, correct your health there with a glass of mineral water, or something. It follows your writings that it turns out: first they made the Pe-2 (bomb carrier), then they made a high-altitude fighter Pe-3 from it (he never really was, Well, these are trifles) then from Pe-3 they DID a dive bomber !!!!! This I draw conclusions from your comments.
            Really switch to mineral water, otherwise it feels like it really flattens you. No apologies.
            1. venik
              venik 2 January 2017 16: 49
              0
              Quote: 210ox
              Everyone has their own opinion..

              ====
              I agree! It’s good when a person has an opinion. AND VERY bad when this opinion is INCOMPATENT !!!!! Even when this is the opinion of the AGGRESSIVE AMATEUR!
          3. ty60
            ty60 1 January 2017 19: 49
            0
            It is in you imported viskar says ..
          4. velikoros-xnumx
            velikoros-xnumx 1 January 2017 20: 38
            +5
            Quote: Fitter65
            Dear, you come to your senses, correct your health there with a glass of mineral water, or something. It follows your writings that it turns out: first they made the Pe-2 (bomb carrier), then they made a high-altitude fighter Pe-3 from it (he never really was, Well, these are trifles) then from Pe-3 they DID a dive bomber !!!!! This I draw conclusions from your comments.
            Really switch to mineral water, otherwise it feels like it really flattens you. No apologies.

            Poorly versed in the topic under discussion, but not bad in ethics, including ethics of communication. Relative knowledge of the topic does not give the right to frank unprovoked rudeness. Position and opinion are defended by arguments, and not in the way you did.
            Best regards hi
        2. svp67
          svp67 1 January 2017 10: 39
          +6
          Quote: alekc73
          PE-3- respected

          He was NEVER tall. Far YES. Our MiG-3s were made high-altitude, but there were problems with the engine, so they did not manage to bring it to mind. For air defense was developed one of the versions of the Yak-9
          1. alekc73
            alekc73 1 January 2017 13: 46
            +3
            its prototype 100 was high-altitude, with a pressurized cabin. It didn’t go into the series due to problems with a turbocharger. Yes, and the concept has changed - an order for diving.
            1. Hog
              Hog 1 January 2017 15: 20
              +4
              You are a little too clever, you made PE-100 from VI-2, in turn you made PE-3 from it, and not like in the first comment.
      2. venik
        venik 2 January 2017 13: 24
        +3
        Quote: Fitter65
        And in what high-altitude fighter did they convert the Pe-2? !!! It’s so awesome that the commentator was also not sickly. He met New Year.

        ====
        The whole problem is that initially the Pe-2 (or rather its prototype) was designed as a high-altitude fighter for escorting heavy long-range bombers TB-7 (Pe-8). Then it was converted into a front-line diving bomber (which had a bunch of modifications during the war). One of them was a long-range fighter Pe-3 fighter, distinguished by the absence of a gunner-radio operator in the rear part and more powerful cannon-machine gun weapons and the absence of brake grids. It was released in limited quantities, and was used mainly in the Moscow air defense system and at coastal theaters to cover naval formations and convoys.
        ---
        PS It seems they are both - that the author, that the commentator met NG well .......
        1. Barkun
          Barkun 3 January 2017 18: 46
          0
          Pe-3 also used as a high-speed bomber, after knocking out SB. The story of the bridge at Golovanov is well described.
    2. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev 1 January 2017 09: 41
      +5
      The problem of pawns and other planes of the USSR during the Second World War, the lack of an adequate engine. And as for the Arkhangelsk, my opinion is that he has exhausted the reserve of modernization, and from a pawn, when he received VK 107, he would get a plane at a level that could be counted on when they put him in a series.
      And not the last role (I even think the main one) was played by poor crew training. It is interesting when meeting with an enemy fighter who has a greater chance of surviving a pawn or an arch
      1. SerB60
        SerB60 1 January 2017 10: 06
        +6
        And what prevented the installation of the same new engines on the Ar-2? What reserve of modernization has it exhausted? "Pawn", in my opinion, is generally superfluous and harmful in the development line of Soviet aircraft. For 600 kg of bombs for a twin-engine, it was already necessary for the zone. The author is a plus.
        1. Kostya Andreev
          Kostya Andreev 1 January 2017 12: 23
          +5
          how simple it is, put new engines and voila. Well, I think in the government and the constructor, they did not know that everything could be done so simply.
          But seriously, it’s a long time to explain, and in short, then ar is an attempt to cheaply and quickly improve the Security Council, and he received all his shortcomings, a large wing area, his thick profile, and weak defensive weapons. And installing a new engine will not solve the problem. Other times have come, and other requirements. I don’t remember where I read it, the pilot’s memories, in his opinion the pawn was let down by the engines. he needs them more powerful. (This is briefly)
          In my opinion, when the Autonomous Republic met with the enemy fighter, it had fewer chances than the pawn.
        2. psy06
          psy06 5 January 2017 19: 29
          0
          100ka "on the zone" was made, for its creation Petlyakov was pardoned.
      2. sivuch
        sivuch 1 January 2017 13: 12
        +3
        At the pawn. The crew of Ar-2 - only 3 people, and only the shooter radio operator looked back. It’s clear that he couldn’t shoot at the upper and lower hemispheres at the same time. It was impossible to place something more serious for ShKAS at the shooter, and for him the firing sectors were insufficient. is actually to build a new plane (in fact, it was created (SBB-1)
        1. psy06
          psy06 5 January 2017 19: 33
          +1
          It’s not true that the technological dimension of such turrets as MV-3 ​​and UTK1, as well as MV-2 and LU-UB, is the same, therefore the AR-2 at 42m if it continued to be produced would flaunt the Berezins at all points, including the bow.
          1. sivuch
            sivuch 7 January 2017 02: 10
            0
            Only, if sclerosis does not change, there was TCC on Ar-2, and the recess, like on a pawn, wasn’t from the word
            1. psy06
              psy06 7 January 2017 11: 04
              0
              MV-3 also put in serial. But if you are talking about rail turrets, then the overall analogue of TSS is VUB, by the way VUB is a modification of TSS for Berezin.
              1. sivuch
                sivuch 7 January 2017 11: 41
                +1
                In this you are quite possibly right. But the remaining questions remain. And the same MV-3 ​​is minus how many km of speed? I suspect that not less than 25. And yet - they wrote about the carcass. That it dives worse than a pawn, less stable, with greater drawdown and worse visibility for the navigator (correct if I am mistaken). Therefore, the carcass was rather painlessly converted into a horizontal bomber. And here is how Ar-2 had a dive, I just don’t know. Still, this is a remake.
                1. psy06
                  psy06 9 January 2017 10: 25
                  0
                  All of our dive remodelers. By the way, here is another significant craftiness that wanders from book to book, we will not see a comparison of the flight speed of cars in the most advantageous mode of combat departure. An Ar-2 with a pick-up holder could take 500 kg into a bomb bay, with a maximum caliber of 500 kg, this, in principle, was enough for the average flight to the Second World War. Pe-2, took 600 kg of a maximum caliber of 100 kg into bombs, while dropping from a dive was impossible. Tu-2 could take a 1T bomb into a bomb bay and drop it from a dive.

                  The findings are again ugly in favor of the Pe-2.

                  My opinion about Pe-2 was conjuncture and nepotism.
                2. The comment was deleted.
      3. venik
        venik 2 January 2017 13: 34
        +3
        Quote: Kostya Andreev
        and from a pawn upon receiving VK 107 a plane would be obtained at a level. it could be that’s what they expected when it was put in a series.

        =====
        Actually why "WOULD it work out"? They existed and were even built in series (Pe-2I and Pe-2M from 1944). True, VK-107A at first were capricious and short-lived, but then they were brought to mind. By the way, their speed at altitude reached 660 and 630 km / h, respectively.
        1. Kostya Andreev
          Kostya Andreev 2 January 2017 19: 39
          0
          thank you know, they still had remote defensive weapons. but this is not a series and therefore did not write.
    3. svp67
      svp67 1 January 2017 10: 38
      +5
      Quote: alekc73
      The PE-2 bomb carrier was hastily converted into a high-altitude fighter, then into a dive bomber. Hence all the problems. These throwings did not lead to good.

      Yes, that's exactly the exact opposite. There was a heavy high-speed high-speed fighter, and a dive bomber was made of it ...
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. Fitter65
    Fitter65 1 January 2017 09: 23
    +3
    As I understand it, the consequences of the New Year’s celebration, there wasn’t anything to improve health, I wanted to intercept the liberals? !! ​​.. Just as far as I know, the author seems to be a stupid person, but he carried such nonsense, with this approach, I-16 can also be declared the most the best fighter of 1945.
  4. fa2998
    fa2998 1 January 2017 10: 09
    +6
    Quote: alekc73
    then into a dive bomber.

    Thousands of kilometers of film were filmed during World War II. And for 70 years it has been used for footage in documentaries. Have you even seen in one movie how the Pe-2 dives like the U-87? It’s never been a dive bomber. In archive footage, it bombes horizontal flight, or in a gentle dive (up to 30-35 gr.). I think at birth this plane was a fighter, its design was not designed for exorbitant loads when leaving the peak.
    A front-engined twin-engine bomber with a modest load (if the Germans also hung bombs of 87-1000 kg for short distances on the Yu-1500), but they quickly designed and built them massively, which was what they fought for! And praise be to them! soldier hi
    1. Lelek
      Lelek 1 January 2017 11: 48
      +4
      Quote: fa2998
      Front-engine twin-engine bomber with a modest load


      And also a scout (Pe-2R). My dad "worked" on it from the first days of the war until March 1944. In letters to his mother he praised his "rooster".
    2. motorized rifle
      motorized rifle 1 January 2017 14: 25
      +9
      [quote = фа2998] [quote = alekc73]. I think at birth this plane was a fighter, its design was not designed for exorbitant loads when exiting the peak.
      Front-engine twin-engine bomber with a modest load soldier hi[/ Quote]

      Did you understand what you wrote? It turns out that the fighter is not designed "for exorbitant loads when exiting the dive." Fun! Let it be known to you that the Pe-2 withstood a twelve-fold overload without damage! Of the serial WWII aircraft, such an overload, without damage, could not withstand a single fighter, not to mention bombers. About a small bomb load. We need to decide. If you bomb armored vehicles and troops in field fortifications from a dive, then according to the report of the Air Force commission, the caliber of the bomb is preferably 50 kg, 100 kg or more, it's like a sparrow cannon. If you bomb from the horizon, then the optimal caliber is 250 kg. Even with the suspension of two FAB-250, nine aircraft squadrons carry 4,5 tons, and 2 FAB-500 or 4 FAB 250, gives 9 tons (by the way, General Douhet, brought the necessary load of the aviation unit to solve the problem in one flight, 20 tons , which according to his calculations amounted to 20 (1x2t) aircraft). Having a small size of each aircraft, the squadron creates a compact formation and, due to this, a sufficient density of bombing. Aiming, in this case, was carried out by the leader, and dropping on command, in one gulp. In a dive, aiming was carried out individually and a salvo drop in one pass. Exceptions, the famous "Polbinsk spinner", when the pawns worked from the circle, dropping one bomb after reconnaissance of the target. For all cases, the range and size of the bomb load on the pawn was considered sufficient.
      1. Razvedka_Boem
        Razvedka_Boem 2 January 2017 05: 55
        +1
        Let it be known to you that the Pe-2 withstood twelve-fold overload without damage!

        The design can withstand, but the person is unlikely. At least not everyone is far from it.
        And half a ton of bombs, if not cool, is not enough. especially if you need to hit specially protected targets.
        1. venik
          venik 2 January 2017 14: 02
          +4
          Quote: Razvedka_Boem
          And half a ton of bombs, if not cool, is not enough. especially if you need to hit specially protected targets.

          ====
          Firstly, the normal bomb load was 600 kg, but very often both 750 and 800 were taken. In general, the maximum load (the so-called overload load is 1 ton). Moreover, my father, who flew them as a navigator, after the war, during a training flight for practical bombing with a 1000 kg combat bomb "under the belly", fell into an unpleasant situation - on take-off after climbing 300 m, the right engine failed. There was nowhere to drop the bomb - I had to land. The pilot showed miracles of mastery and managed to land the car in the "overloaded version" on ONE engine, and WITHOUT any damage !!!
          1. Razvedka_Boem
            Razvedka_Boem 2 January 2017 14: 51
            +1
            In the overloaded version, the flight range and maneuverability fell, the band required for takeoff increases. And if, as you say, you often flew overloaded, then this is not from a good life.
            In any case, 500-600 kg for the bomber is too small. At the same time, I do not want to belittle at all the benefits that this plane brought and I have no doubt in the skill of our pilots flying on these machines.
            Py.Sy. I read the "Steel Squadron".
    3. Pre-cat
      Pre-cat 1 January 2017 15: 43
      +4
      You probably haven’t looked at all the thousands of kilometers of the chronicle laughing On the same YouTube you can find. Another thing is that just as dashing as the Yu-87 did not know how to exit the dive. There was a big drawdown. Therefore, for bombing with a dive over 50 grams. you had to be an experienced pilot. And we had not so many of them.
      1. sandrmur76
        sandrmur76 1 January 2017 19: 15
        +4
        Yes, and the Germans had pilots problems yes In the fog (low cloud) did not taxi.
    4. venik
      venik 2 January 2017 13: 45
      +5
      Quote: fa2998

      4
      f2998 Yesterday, 10:09
      Quote: alekc73
      then into a dive bomber.

      During World War II, thousands of kilometers of film were shot. And for 70 years it has been used for video sequences in documentaries. Have you even seen in one movie how the Pe-2 dives like the Yu-87?

      =======
      Yes "iron" of course the argument !!! You can't say anything ... Since you, my friend, did not see the footage with diving "pawns", then they bombed from the "horizon" ... Bravo!
      So the Pe-2 was bombed MAINLY from a PIKE !! Why is that? Because from a steep dive when using the brake grids, he hit VERY EXACTLY !!! Although they could work from the "horizon".
      How do I know that? Yes, it’s just that my father flew them into the war (Baltic Fleet aviation) and flew after the war for several years.
      1. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 3 January 2017 22: 27
        0
        Well, actually, in naval aviation the level of training is different (Baltic Fleet), in naval aviation there are no weak pilots by definition (not my words, but a veteran). and what you wrote is impossible to argue here.
        Your father probably flew at the end of the warriors?
        sorry for the question is just very interesting?
        1. venik
          venik 8 January 2017 21: 20
          +3
          Quote: Kostya Andreev
          Your father probably flew at the end of the warriors?
          sorry for the question is just very interesting?

          ====
          Quite right! At the beginning of 43, their release was delayed and sent for "enhanced" training (they learned to dive bomb and work with torpedoes). Then he got to the Black Sea Fleet, and at the end of the 44th, when there was almost no "work" left on the Black Sea, he was transferred to the Baltic.
          You are absolutely right - the level of training of the naval crews was much higher (after all, the targets are mostly "pinpoint", and navigation over the sea is much more difficult than over land, etc.).
      2. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 10 January 2017 14: 31
        +1
        At the beginning of the war, they bombed mainly from the horizon - experienced pilots were not enough.
        What's the point, if an experienced comasco - knows how to bomb from a dive - maybe another 2-3 leading links can, but the rest aren't. As a result, most of the attacks were delivered from horizontal flight, until they began to train poetically. By 1943, one division (3 regiments) on the Pe-2 bombed from a dive - thanks to its division commander (Polbin).
  5. Filxnumx
    Filxnumx 1 January 2017 10: 17
    +1
    Quote: Fitter65
    As I understand it, the consequences of the New Year’s celebration, there wasn’t anything to improve health, I wanted to intercept the liberals? !! ​​.. Just as far as I know, the author seems to be a stupid person, but he carried such nonsense, with this approach, I-16 can also be declared the most the best fighter of 1945.

    What are you talking about, dear? Apparently with the amount of knowledge on the issue under discussion you are completely seamy, since you draw such conclusions. The author is absolutely right in assessing the combat capabilities of this
    non-bomber. What liberals can we talk about if the bomb load of this "miracle of technology" in the overwhelming majority of sorties was only 400 kg, less than that of a single-engine
    Focke-Wulf-190? And in more than half of sorties, the bombardment was carried out from horizontal flight? And to sheer mode
    the dive that Luftwaffe pilots usually used on "lapteers" were our pilots forbidden to go out "to avoid"?
    1. SerB60
      SerB60 1 January 2017 10: 22
      +4
      I support. From the dive, only the students of Polbin bombed, the main part from a horizontal flight threw miserable 500-700 kg of bombs over the areas ...
    2. venik
      venik 2 January 2017 15: 39
      +4
      Quote: Fil743
      Apparently with the amount of knowledge on the issue under discussion you are completely seamy, since you draw such conclusions. The author is absolutely right in assessing the combat capabilities of this
      non-bomber. What liberals can we talk about if the bomb load of this "miracle of technology" in the overwhelming majority of sorties was only 400 kg, less than that of a single-engine
      Focke-Wulf-190?

      =====
      In general, they usually took from 600 to 750 kg. Sometimes 1000 kg. This is the so-called "overload option". Reloading - because the plane on one engine with such a load began to lose altitude. But with a load of up to 600 kg, it could fly without losing altitude, although the flight range was somewhat reduced.
      So, the information that the bomb load of the "pawn" was less than that of the "Fokker" (up to 500 kg maximum, and then only on the latest modifications), frankly, was taken from the "Stela reference book" (stele in Ukrainian - ceiling) !! !!!

      =====
      Quote: Fil743
      And in more than half of the sorties, the bombing was carried out from a horizontal flight? And on the steep dive mode, which was usually used by the Luftwaffe pilots on the "laptezhniki", our pilots were forbidden to go out "in order to avoid"?
      .
      -------
      I don't know where you got such nonsense! For example, my father told me that "from the horizon" they worked extremely rarely, mainly from a steep peak from 60 to 90 degrees. And they worked as a "carousel" and "chain".

      ===================

      Quote: Fil743
      What are you talking about, dear? Apparently with the amount of knowledge on the issue under discussion you are completely seamy, since you draw such conclusions. The author is absolutely right in assessing the combat capabilities of this nondominated bomber.

      ====
      Apparently with the "volume of knowledge" just YOU and the AUTHOR have a FULL SEAM.
  6. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 1 January 2017 10: 29
    +4
    The amateurish article. And about the Tu-2 in general nonsense - this so-called. the dive pilot couldn’t dive at all, although in other respects he was a very good aircraft.
    1. venik
      venik 2 January 2017 15: 55
      0
      Quote: Aviator_
      The amateurish article. And about the Tu-2 in general nonsense - this so-called. the dive player couldn’t dive at all

      ---------
      I could !!! And very good! True, at the end of the war, when our ground aviation again began to actively use the "carpet" bombing method, it was often used to work from the horizon (given that the bomb load of the most massive modifications could reach 3 tons),
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 2 January 2017 17: 33
        +3
        See V. B. Shavrov. The history of aircraft designs in the USSR 1938-1950, p. 166. Unfortunately, I could not, even the brake grilles were removed as unnecessary.
  7. Idel
    Idel 1 January 2017 10: 33
    +9
    The author thinks on a planetary scale. I don’t know exactly what the disease is called medically, but the problems are obvious.
    After reading Wikipedia (he scored a lot from there), this clown decided that he was smarter than those who made fateful decisions at that difficult time.
    Which car to give priority to depends on many factors and not only on flight performance. The author will never understand this. Oh, these virtual heroes of tank battles. A generation has bred
    1. SerB60
      SerB60 1 January 2017 10: 45
      +1
      That is, a twin-engine "dive" bomber (90% non-dive) With 600-700 kg of bombs - a masterpiece? It would be better if the AP-2 was modified.
      1. Idel
        Idel 1 January 2017 15: 59
        +2
        Also like to cut yourself into tanks?
      2. Idel
        Idel 1 January 2017 16: 47
        +10
        1. Pe-2 dropped bombs from a height of 1300-1200 m and that is why their accuracy of bombing was significantly higher than that of Ar-2. The latter was simply contraindicated for a long dive trajectory according to the conditions of structural strength (What to take from the SB?). At the same time, the Pe-2 came out of the peak at a speed of about 700 km / h on the instrument, which had a very positive effect on reducing the time spent in the anti-aircraft fire zone. Shoot it down at the peak was difficult, but the Ar-2 is much easier - and anti-aircraft guns and fighters.
        2. At Ar-2, the dead zone behind the tail did not allow a high-quality defense. At Pe-2, two people covered their tail. Prior to the start of the State Testing, the Aviation Weapons Research Ground cuts down the aircraft as it does not meet the requirements. Training battle with a link of fighters (it seems MiG-3) the machine could not stand it.
        3. In range, the Pe-2 wings of the Ar-2 and SB are like a sheep to a bull, and therefore, due to part of the fuel, he could easily take 4 FAB-500s to the external suspension.
        4. The state tests of the Ar-2 passed with a maximum speed of 485 km / h, and there were no talks about any 502-505-508-512-515. Pe-2 showed 540 km / h.
        5. Magazine "Aviamaster" No. 2 and 3 for 1997, article "Weapon" pawns ":" ... with 3 FAB-500 in a dive Ar-2 were not tested because of limitations in strength. The limit reached during the tests is four FAB-250. The SB and AR-2 crew could only dream of such things as cassettes on the internal suspension, or use RRABs from the external suspension, which, due to their developed plumage, ate over 60 km / h from max. speed. In terms of bombing accuracy, the Ar-2 was inferior to the Ju-88 and Pe-2 by almost two times.
      3. venik
        venik 2 January 2017 16: 11
        +2
        Quote: SerB60
        That is, a twin-engine "dive" bomber (90% non-dive) With 600-700 kg of bombs - a masterpiece? It would be better if the AP-2 was modified.

        ------
        The problems with the AP-2 were mainly in its ACh-30B engines, the output of which was limited. Attempts to install the AM-37 and AM-35 engines were unsuccessful - the speed increased slightly, and the range decreased! In addition, the alignment has changed, there is a need to change the sweep angle of the leading edge, etc. In short, it was necessary to redesign the whole machine as a whole! Essentially Design a NEW Aircraft!
        Attempts to install other engines, even diesel engines, stumbled upon the same problem of mass production - there were no well-developed and debugged engines for THIS machine in the country ...
        In short, while all these problems were being resolved, the quite successful Tu-2 with well-developed engines "arrived in time" and the need for EP-2 gradually disappeared .... It's a pity !!!! The car was VERY interesting !!
        1. psy06
          psy06 5 January 2017 19: 55
          +1
          You will decide what you are writing about the Ar-2 dive or long-range Er-2, which has nothing to do with this topic.
    2. dauria
      dauria 1 January 2017 11: 41
      +10
      . Oh, these virtual heroes of tank battles. A generation has bred


      I will tell you how it happened. In the 70s, 80s where to get? Model designer, Yakovlev’s book with reference to BF.109 (and E-3), a rare book by Shavrov, and here and there. For crumbs and emphasis, our best.
      In the 90s, everything swayed in the opposite direction. A lot of information in the form of brochures, issues (many are now lying on the Wunderwaffe website). According to one of them, someone here praises FW. 190. Such a little white cover, right? wink (phrases from there). A lot of useful things, but one bias - a condescending attitude towards Soviet machines. That was the fashion then - "to have a different opinion." Here is the result.
      It's funny, but in the English editions "Spitfire" is a masterpiece, in the American editions - "Mustang". Moreover, they will choose different modifications of different years, spit on the number of released and "compare".
      And the "weaving" - so the Germans had it. Twin-engine messer 110. The idea was in a kind of air raider, long-range fighter-hunter. It failed over England, but the car came in handy both as a bomber and as a night fighter (even a radar was stuck on it). It's the same with us. Made. Then, out of need, they converted it into a bomber jacket. He did his own thing, won time for the country.
      1. Idel
        Idel 1 January 2017 15: 59
        +8
        Society has become politicized. Numerous talk shows are held, creating a sense of significance of every worthless person. Every jerk is trying to publish his crazy ideas. So is the author of this article. Zero knowledge, knows nothing, but has an opinion. Militant incompetence. The trouble of Russia at the moment: the lack of professionals. This is a systemic problem: the furniture maker steers the Ministry of Defense, a graduate student by the Government. There is no question about the author of the article.
        1. Shell
          Shell 2 January 2017 14: 07
          +2
          Quote: Idel
          furniture maker steers the Ministry of Defense

          The furniture maker has never led the MO. Look in the dictionary and discover what the term furniture maker means.
          And also specify what kind of education Serdyukov was. And he was one of the few professionals who led the MO. Because "military" (in the broadest sense) is a specialty that is not at all managerial. And the management of the Ministry of Defense should not be trusted by non-professionals.
          Quote: Idel
          graduate student Government

          And you do not like a graduate student? And who should manage it? Graduate of the Institute of Government Chairpersons?
          Quote: Idel
          Zero knowledge, knows nothing, but has an opinion. Militant incompetence.

          Are you talking about yourself?
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Shell
              Shell 2 January 2017 21: 13
              +2
              Quote: Idel
              In terms of intelligence, you are, of course, just below the city sewer

              PPC. In addition to rudeness, there is nothing in it. Generally. Even knowledge of basic things.
        2. psy06
          psy06 5 January 2017 19: 57
          +1
          Actually, Kondratyev is a famous aviation historian, if you don’t know who is who, why write nonsense.
  8. svp67
    svp67 1 January 2017 10: 40
    +4
    The pawn is not the queen
    The most interesting thing is that there is an article: Pawn BECAME A QUEEN How many people, so many opinions.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 1 January 2017 11: 15
      +8
      Quote: svp67
      Pawn, BECAME a queen. How many people, so much to me

      here I completely agree
      Quote: SerB60
      That is, a twin-engine "dive" bomber (90% non-dive) With 600-700 kg of bombs - a masterpiece? It would be better if the AP-2 was modified.

      Why not? Didn’t you think about it, given that it was created on the basis of the Security Council, the production is mastered, modify it but it doesn’t go wrong. And why? Undercover intrigues, industrial LOBBIES?
      Quote: Fil743
      What are you talking about, dear? Apparently with the amount of knowledge on the issue under discussion you are completely seamy, since you draw such conclusions.

      With a lot of knowledge on this topic, I do not have all the seams, so I ask you to answer why the super dive Ar-2 did not become widespread either. Or do you gentlemen think that they were full in the government at that time ... Explain to me why the dive whose task is to inflict a point strike on an object to carry 2-3-4-5-6 tons of bombs? Quickly flew, struck a point strike with five hundred or a couple of two hundred, and everything was gone. To send tons of bombs on an object is the task of strategists (ADD), long-term impact on the object with machine-gun cannon fire. Bombing attacks, so this IL-2 was suitable for this task. Not of course from the heights of the past, it’s good to talk about the stupidity of the previous ones, well, it’s possible to talk about the worthlessness of the Su-17 because it was a MiG-27K, or vice versa, why was a MiG-27 needed when it was a Su-17M4? Vegetable experts ...
    2. Colonel
      Colonel 1 January 2017 12: 04
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      The most interesting thing is that there is an article: Pawn BECAME a queen

      And even more interesting is that there is a book "Pawns Come to Queens". Unfortunately I don't remember the author.
  9. Maegrom
    Maegrom 1 January 2017 11: 23
    +5
    There is an obvious point associated with the advantage in cruising speed - a decrease in the probability of interception. This moment depends on the difference in speeds, while increasing the difference by a third can dramatically increase the likelihood of an interception, mission failure or group death. And so it is possible even to the point that TB is the best bomber, what difference does it make if fighters are still faster?
    Isn’t this one of the reasons for using not fully loaded, faster machines? Would the Ar-2 fly with full load in such tasks?
    Also, Pawn, still more defensive and tenacious, compared to Ar-2.
    I like Ar-2, but there are a lot of subtleties that are necessary
    to consider and justify in order to write an article in this tone
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 1 January 2017 11: 37
      +8
      Everything was correct, he quickly ran-hit-ran away. Yu-87 was good until there was opposition, therefore, shots were replicated where the "Laptezhniki" were diving at the target without hurrying over and over again. For propaganda purposes in polygon conditions. By the way, someone can throw me a link where the Ju-88 is bombing from a dive in combat conditions. From the whole chronicle, well, what I saw, everywhere from the horizontal ... About the Do-17 type dive bomber and its modification, I think we’ll keep quiet ...
  10. fa2998
    fa2998 1 January 2017 12: 20
    +1
    Quote: Fitter65
    Explain to me why the dive, whose task is to inflict a point strike on the object to carry 2-3-4-5-6 tons of bombs? Quickly flew, struck a point blow with five hundred or a couple of two hundred, and left

    Once again, I could not say that the PE-2 REALLY PIKE, and could not deliver a "pinpoint strike". And from horizontal bombing 500-600 kg is not enough. Yes, and sometimes this is not enough for a dive bomber. . against heavy ships and concrete shelters. Naturally, the radius was reduced. And with a "pawn" such a number will work? request hi
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 1 January 2017 15: 03
      +6
      Read ZHELUDKOV’s memoirs, there he describes how they couldn’t REALLY DIVE with Polbin. When the fuel depot was destroyed. I certainly understand that memoirs, memoirs of the participants in the events are not confirmation of this fact about the dive man. We have the only dive man of all times and nations is Baron Munchausen which destroyed dozens of Russian tanks from his Stukas in one run. Why Munchausen? So Munchausen lied for the soul, well, imagine you don’t have electricity (it means that the computer doesn’t work, you won’t damage social networks) and we’re sitting in a close circle of those who he didn’t go further than the outskirts and lie to the missing everything that only imagination allows, now it’s the same, because no one is swept up by double-checking the alleged facts that lead. So Rudel knowing that no one would check him before the stomach was torn, because he and Munchausen .
  11. DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 January 2017 12: 31
    +6
    The author’s dismissive opinion about the ability of the Pe-2 to launch a bombing dive is not very clear. The pilots who fought on it speak generally well of the aircraft. Do not forget that the Pe-2 had a navigator, who in the dive mode from the dive laid down corrections for the conditions in the aiming parameters, which there was simply no one to do in the Yu-87. And the speed and strength characteristics of the glider, designed for fighter loads, left the Pe-2 crew more likely to battle with enemy fighters. The low bomb load was offset by the accuracy of the strike. And the fact that they bombed from horizontal flight, so the designer Petlyakov is not to blame that the pilots were not trained to use the main advantage of the aircraft.
  12. Dekabrist
    Dekabrist 1 January 2017 13: 46
    +11
    Usually, if someone undertakes to write on a topic in which he is not a specialist, he tries to understand the issue. You can consult, after all. Otherwise, it turns out what happened to the author of the article.
    The "laminated" profile shows that the person is a layman in matters of aircraft construction.
    The profile may be laminar. And no profile affected the speed advantage of the PE-2 versus Ap -2. By the way, I would like to know where the author got the information from.
    TsAGI profiles were selected for the wing, which allow achieving significant speeds when diving at high altitudes.
    The decision that high altitude was not needed was made after the Soviet delegation visited Germany, which was shown by ALL planes. There were no high-rise ones among them. An objective assessment of the state of the aviation of potential adversaries showed that in the coming years one should not be afraid of the massive use of high-altitude bombers. Aircraft of this type available abroad were still very "raw", not finished and unsuitable for operation in combat conditions. In this regard, naturally, there was no urgent need for high-altitude fighters. The subsequent course of hostilities during the Second World War confirmed the correctness of this assessment. None of the Axis countries used high-altitude bombers during the war. A small number of high-altitude aircraft Junkers Ju.86P and Ju.86R and Henschel Hs.130 were owned by the Germans, but they were mainly used for strategic reconnaissance and did not pose a serious threat. Italy did not have such machines, and Japan did not have any heavy bomber aircraft at all.
    By the way, the Americans after a detailed acquaintance with PE - 2 had a completely different opinion about him than the author. Probably worse versed in aviation. In short, if you analyze this opus, the article will work out.
    It's bad that after reading the article of such an "expert" people far from aviation will think that the specialist wrote.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 1 January 2017 15: 04
      +1
      Quote: Dekabrist
      The "laminated" profile shows that the person is a layman in matters of aircraft construction.

      I already didn’t even pay attention to this, because the greatest expert wrote.
  13. WapentakeLokki
    WapentakeLokki 1 January 2017 13: 56
    +3
    Yes, Pe-2 is a palliative, but other planes in the Red Army could not afford a peak at an angle of 90 and he could, so it’s the pilots here that Polbin was able to teach the regiment and then the division to dive, but he was the only one in other parts who bombed horizon. Yes, the load on the pawn was small, but it’s better to pour out 2 tons of bombs or hit one with 100 but it’s accurate and generally the dive player makes 1-2 MAX attacks because losing height at the peak is easy, but gaining it again isn’t possible, and especially large targets can be drilled to 500-1000 kg only at sea and 250-k are enough on the ground. And the Peshka’s fighter pedigree allowed diving at angles of up to 90 and aerobatics, but other applicants didn’t have much of this. So the Tu-2 could not plumb, and the Ar-2 was the same. As for weak engines, this is the trouble of all WWII aircraft, but to 43 g Myasishchev made a modification of Pes decent performance but it was too late and the pawn remained a half-poker and it is a pity that its constructor crashed at 42 and could not bring the Pawn to Queens
  14. DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 January 2017 14: 03
    +4
    Quote: Dekabrist
    By the way, the Americans after a detailed acquaintance with PE - 2 had a completely different opinion about him than the author. Probably worse versed in aviation. In short, if you analyze this opus, the article will work out.
    It's bad that after reading the article of such an "expert" people far from aviation will think that the specialist wrote.

    Totally agree with you. And about the article in response ... so it already exists. I recommend to everyone who wants to know about the "terrible" reality to read the old article on Topvar dated February 18, 2014. by Andrey Sukhorukov: "Conversations with Timofei Panteleevich Punev." No Air Force had a bomber like the Pe-2 "(https://topwar.ru/39842-besedy-s-timofeem-pantel
    eevichem-punevym.html). I recommend reading and ... realizing regret for the cancellation of minuses.
    1. Dekabrist
      Dekabrist 1 January 2017 14: 10
      +3
      Sometimes it seems that such military-technical nonsense is published deliberately, to increase attendance, or something.
  15. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 1 January 2017 14: 11
    +2
    you read the comments which are all smart and it is necessary and necessary.
    but not that the Soviet Union could not, due to its development, make technology such as that of the leading INDUSTRIAL powers west. And the fact that he was able to somehow make airplanes which, if they were inferior to the world level, were not fatal.
    through this it is necessary to consider a pawn, and not compare it with the planes of industrialized powers. with a powerful engineering school and trained highly skilled workers!
    1. Dekabrist
      Dekabrist 1 January 2017 14: 26
      +2
      By the way, if you compare, in the form of a tablet, only correctly, without bias, it will turn out to be interesting and informative for "subversives".
  16. Bering Strait
    Bering Strait 1 January 2017 14: 44
    +2
    The AR-2, which was also called SB-M, had its drawbacks. In particular, small arms, weaker compared to the Pe-2, consisting only of 7,62 mm machine guns (the Pe-2 was armed with 1-2 ShKAS 7,62 mm machine guns and 1 12,7 mm BK machine gun, or 1 7,62 machine gun mm and 2 machine guns 12,7 mm, and the AR-2 had 3 machine guns 7,62 mm). The main disadvantage of the entire series of SB aircraft (SB-1, SB-2, SB-3) is the cramped cockpit, which greatly interfered, especially for the gunners. On the AR-2, aka SB-M, they tried to eliminate the SB's shortcomings, but they did not succeed in full ... In addition to the Pe-2, the Pe-3 interceptor fighters were produced, based on the Pe-2. The main drawback of the Pe-2 is still relatively weak motors, on the AR-2 they were even weaker ... Therefore, the more advanced and high-speed Tu-2 began to replace the Pe-2 ... they did the job, in particular, they destroyed the Nazi air defense cruiser Niobe
    1. psy06
      psy06 5 January 2017 20: 07
      +1
      Have you read Wikipedia? Compare a 40goda airplane with a 42nd airplane? The Pe-2s of the 40th issue on LTX flew only a little faster, the defensive weapons were worse, the bombs too, the cabs were no different in convenience, their motors were the same ... Ar-2 had the SB-RK index, not the SB-M.
  17. Fitter65
    Fitter65 1 January 2017 15: 06
    +4
    Quote: Dekabrist
    It is bad that after reading the article of such an "expert" people far from aviation will think that the specialist wrote

    This is the most true characteristic of the article !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  18. kig
    kig 1 January 2017 15: 21
    +2
    and Tu-2 - only 800. And this, in general, is not at all pleasing. Perhaps, everything is very simple here: if we redo production for Tu-2, then we have a decline in the number of aircraft produced. In that situation, it was impossible to go for it. And it wasn't such a bad pawn - read Drabkin.
    1. quolta
      quolta 1 January 2017 15: 53
      0
      yeah, I read the memories of pilots at Drabkin and why the Tu-2 800 there like 2 tons
      1. Alf
        Alf 1 January 2017 20: 37
        0
        Quote: Quantu
        yeah, I read the memories of pilots at Drabkin and why the Tu-2 800 there like 2 tons

        This means that 800 is the number of TU-2s produced before the end of the war, and not the carrying capacity.
  19. motorized rifle
    motorized rifle 1 January 2017 16: 04
    +12
    It is strange to read such articles from a person to aviation, sort of as related. Well, for example:
    “Sometimes it seems that the then Soviet“ leaders ”with respect to aviation (and not only aviation) had a certain“ high-speed fetishism. ”It was believed that a faster car is in any case better than a slower one, no matter what the cost bought this advantage. " Then it turns out that the "leaders of the English people" were deprived of "high-speed fetishism" because they did not want to adopt a Mosquito, also with a low bomb load (908kg!), And even a wooden one, well, think of speed and there is no defensive weapons at all! Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers! (c) Pe-2 !, yes it was a super modern aircraft for our Air Force! I pressed the button - removed the landing gear, pressed the button - removed the flaps, in the end, pressed the button - the plane came out of the dive! All metal, electric, nimble. Turn the barrel, but it’s not a question, anti-aircraft maneuver or a fighter avoiding fire, but simply, gave the pedal and slid. The speed at the peak is 900 km / h, but at this speed the fighter is not up to firing, he moved a little handle - overload. Our scouts on the PE-2R (often flying alone) used the following technique all the time: when they were detected and pursued by enemy fighters, they left in a gentle dive (10-15 degrees) to their territory, having a speed of at least 600 km / h. And if the enemy nevertheless caught up, then he had to take into account these 600 km / h for aiming, but the arrow on the Pawn was easier, because in his case the relative speed is mainly taken into account, i.e., for the PE-2, for example, 600 km / h, and for Messer -700 km / h, then the difference is 100 km / h, or 28 m / s, and the flight time of Messer's shells decreases by only these 28 m / s, because the pawn leaves, and the flight time of the bullet of the pawn's arrow decreases by the speed of the messer (by 194 m / s), because and the bullet and the messer are moving towards. We have, the velocity (relative) of the projectile of the Messer cannon (MG 152/20) 650 + 28 (rounding off) 680 m / s, the bullet velocity of the UBS machine gun relative to the Messer, 850+ 194 = 1050 "A bullet at a target that moves at a speed (again relative) of 28m / s is possible even without corrections. Let us prove by the method of linear lead, let's say the firing distance is 400m, the firing angle is 15 degrees (at large angles at this speed) the messer will not be able to keep the target in the sight) then the flight time of its projectile (excluding the speed drop, for simplicity), 400/680 = 0,6 , XNUMXs (rounding off). During this time, the pawn will fly
    ! 67 (Pe-2 speed in m / s) x 0,6хsin15 (0,25) = 25m or 25 / 12,6 = 2 fuselage lengths. Now, on the contrary, the shooter of the pawn shoots, the approach time of the bullet is 400/1050 = 0,4 s during this time the messer will fly relative to the pawn 28x0,4x0,25 = 2,8m or 2,8 / 8,85 = 0 of the fuselage length. It turns out that when firing at the messer, there is no need to take even an amendment, given that the affected part of the latter is a part of the fuselage, 32 m long, counted from the propeller hub. Those. Aim at the hub, the propeller gets into the cockpit. So much for the "high-speed fitishism" of stupid Soviet leaders.
    Sorry for a lot of text.
    1. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev 1 January 2017 20: 03
      +3
      Plus. Everyone was waiting for someone to say about the aircraft electrification, as it is not reflected in the article, and comments when comparing ar and ne, pay no attention that this is not a technologically different plane. And this is the development of the aviation industry.
      Did you do the calculations yourself?
      1. motorized rifle
        motorized rifle 2 January 2017 00: 24
        +7
        Quote: Kostya Andrei
        Plus. ...
        Did you do the calculations yourself?

        Sam, on the basis of the outline of the course "Combat use of small arms aircraft" Colonel engineer S. S. Rukavishnikov. Military Academy of the Command and Navigation Staff of the Red Army Air Force 1945
  20. rubin6286
    rubin6286 1 January 2017 17: 31
    +1
    Dear author! Your article is very superficial and therefore frankly weak. I recommend that you and other commentators go to the war kruzzz website. com, free download without SMS and registration monograph Medved A.N. Yu Khazanov D.B. “The diving bomber Pe-2. "Pawn" has become a queen ", which describes in detail the history of the creation and design of this aircraft. There is also a book by A.V. Drabkin “I fought at the Pe-2 Chronicle of dive bombers”, which sets out the recollections of those who fought on this machine and survived to Victory. In general, memoirs should be approached with caution, because memoirs of war veterans do not always allow an objective assessment of a combat aircraft. During the war, they were all young, brave, but from a technical point of view, not sufficiently educated. Few people were able to change 2-3 types of aircraft during the war, most often they were 1-2 modifications of the same aircraft and there was nothing to compare it with.
    More attention needs to be paid to modern aviation. Already flying planes of generations 4 ++, 5 and preparing the sixth generation of combat vehicles. New designs appear, weapons capabilities, electronic equipment, materials, views on military use, and on the site all the epics about the "antiquities" are presented - about the Czech tank, about the naval battles of 1904, etc. etc. You need to be closer to modern topics.
    1. Dekabrist
      Dekabrist 1 January 2017 18: 39
      +3
      According to the author and article - I agree. According to the comments - do not bring everyone together. For the rest - catch the word. We are asking you for an article about the sixth generation of fighters, we will read it with pleasure. By the way, some already talk about the seventh generation.
    2. Alf
      Alf 1 January 2017 20: 43
      +3
      Quote: rubin6286
      More attention needs to be paid to modern aviation. Already flying planes of generations 4 ++, 5 and preparing the sixth generation of combat vehicles. New designs appear, weapons capabilities, electronic equipment, materials, views on military use, and on the site all the epics about the "antiquities" are presented - about the Czech tank, about the naval battles of 1904, etc. etc. You need to be closer to modern topics.

      It is necessary, very necessary.
      But these "antiquities" went through the biggest war in the history of mankind, and they went "from bell to bell." And they were used en masse, and not piecemeal. Besides, what to write about the 6th generation aircraft, and the 5th too? Where did they fight, in what quantities?
  21. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 1 January 2017 18: 43
    +3
    Quote: alekc73
    As a dive peer, the Pe-2 is also not very

    The saddest thing is that the vast majority of Pe-2 pilots were not trained in dive bombing, so the combat effectiveness of the Pe-2 with its negligible bomb load was not very high.
    Plus the maximum speed of serial "pawns" was not 540, but 460 km / h.
    And Ar-2 and Tu-2 were, like bombers, a cut above.
    Ar-2 was also destroyed because Yakovlev, by virtue of his position, was pushing his unsuccessful Yak-4 / Yak-2.
    The Tu-2 was discontinued in 1941 at the direction of Stalin, since he never received a report on the military tests of the Tu-2 prototype despite repeated reminders. Stalin interpreted the lack of a report so that the test results are negative. And it’s a pity, because Tu-2 with M-37 engines, among other things, was a very fast aircraft. The serial Tu-2 with the M-82 was inferior to him 70 kilometers.
    1. Dekabrist
      Dekabrist 1 January 2017 19: 26
      +4
      "The Tu-2 was taken out of production in 1941 at Stalin's instructions, as he never received a report on the military tests of the experimental Tu-2 series, despite repeated reminders." And they say Stalin was a tyrant. And he asked, asked for a report on the newest aircraft, reminded, reminded, then spat and filmed episodes. And he left careless performers without sweets.
      Do not go the wrong way by the author of the article.
      On 17 of June 1941 of the year, just five days before the start of the war, the order of the NKAP No.533 appeared:

      "In pursuance of the government decree of June 10, 1941, I order: - Comrade Tarasevich, head of the 10th Main Directorate, and Comrade Shenkman, director of plant No.18, immediately begin preparations for putting into production the 103 aircraft, proceeding from the fact that the plant No.18 should produce in 1941 ..., and in 1942, 1000 "103" aircraft and 400 Er-2 aircraft.
      The Air Force has repeatedly expressed concern about the large number of hydraulic and remote control elements in the 103 systems. This anxiety reached the top management as well. In the GKO decree No.1094 of January 3, 1942, it was proposed to work out the issue of the possibility of reducing these systems without deteriorating the combat and tactical flight qualities of the aircraft.
      . In June 1942, the No.166 plant received an order from the NKAP to transfer Tu-2 aircraft to form two regiments sent to the front.
      The order of the NKAP to equip two regiments with Tu-2 aircraft by the factory was successfully carried out. Work was underway to improve the machine and the design bureau.
      At the beginning of the fourth quarter of 1942, when the plant reached a steady rhythm of production of Tu-2, the order of the NKAP No.763 from 10 on October 1942 came:

      "In pursuance of the GKO decree in order to increase the production of fighter aircraft, I ORDER:

      1. Director / Factory No.166 comrade Sokolov: a) stop the production of Tu-166 aircraft at No.2 plant.
      In the 1943 year, after the Battle of Kursk, a government decision was made to restore the Tu-2 series, but already in Moscow.
    2. Alf
      Alf 1 January 2017 20: 49
      +2
      Quote: Captain Pushkin
      And it’s a pity, because Tu-2 with M-37 engines, among other things, was a very fast aircraft. The serial Tu-2 with the M-82 was inferior to him 70 kilometers.

      It’s true that only Soviet aircraft didn’t receive M-37 engines. They remained unclassified. And now remember when the LA-5 with the M-82 went into the series, how much it was with these engines. And from the first two regiments on the TU-2 in 1942 there were constantly complaints about the work of the M-82. According to the present TU-2, it flew only when the brought ASH-82FN was delivered to it.
      1. Alex
        Alex 2 January 2017 13: 06
        +1
        All aircraft with the AM-37 became "victims" of the Il-2, as well as with the AM-35. It was decided to increase the production of AM-38 for the IL-2 by discontinuing the production of other Mikulin engines. Thus, the MiG-3 and Pe-8 (AM-35A), Tupolevskiy 103 (future Tu-2), Grushinskiy Gr-1, Polikarpovskiy ITP (M2) and TIS, etc. "suffered".
  22. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 1 January 2017 19: 17
    +4
    Quote: motorized infantryman
    Our reconnaissance aircraft on the PE-2R (often flying alone) used the following technique all the time: when they were detected and pursued by enemy fighters, they left with a gentle dive (10-15 degrees) to their territory, having a speed of at least 600 km / h.

    I will give a description of the combat mission of the reconnaissance Pe-2.
    The flight mission had two goals for aerial photography: a railway station and an airfield.
    Flying at an altitude of 5000m, three pairs of fighter jets were noticed taking off.
    The commander thought that they would have time to remove both goals and leave. No sooner had the fighters climbed onto the echelon rather than expected.
    The pilot began to maneuver in the direction with the goal of collecting all three pairs on his tail, then he reduced the speed to the minimum possible.
    As the fighters approached the firing distance, the Pe-2 abruptly dived. He brought the angle to 90 degrees, then turned the plane around the axis by 180 degrees and reduced the dive angle (flew towards the attackers).
    The conclusion of the dive at the lowest possible height with maximum overload.
    After they got around and began to see normally, they decided on their location and went home at low altitude.
  23. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 1 January 2017 19: 25
    +1
    Quote: Bering Strait
    And the Pawns did their job, in particular, it was they who destroyed the Nazi air defense cruiser Niobe

    The sinking of the Niobe is a rather complicated operation.
    First 36 Yak-9s cleared and blocked the airspace above the port.
    Then, the IL-2 attack aircraft hit ships and coastal anti-aircraft batteries.
    Then the Pe-2 group struck from a dive at the Niobe,
    and it was sunk by the attack of a group of A-20 topmachchers, striking from the shore with 500 and 1000kg caliber bombs
  24. sounddoc
    sounddoc 1 January 2017 19: 49
    +7
    I immediately remembered my neighbor Ivan Ivanovich (sorry, he died about twelve years ago). A friendly little old man, always cheerful and sociable, a retired teacher. One day they brought me a combined model of Pe-2, ordered my friend for his son's birthday. It was in the summer, I sat down near the entrance to talk to Ivan Ivanovich. The old man immediately fell silent and began to peer into the box with surprise. "Pawn" ?????? - suddenly he exhaled and asked to show. I gave the model in bewilderment and heard a story about this legendary aircraft. Ivan Ivanovich was the navigator on the Pe-2 during the war! He told a lot about the car, responded very well. Once again he confirmed that in skillful and competent hands the plane worked wonders. Most of all I remember the story of how he and the regiment commander, in my opinion, somewhere in Western Ukraine, flew on a pawn "from the headquarters of the division and were intercepted out of nowhere by a single" Messer ". As Ivan Ivanovich said, the commander was a very cool pilot and loved to take him with him as the best navigator. The German caught up with them not without difficulty, but the commander pressed himself to the ground, went on a low level. The enemy turned out to be not sewn with a bast and hung on his tail. The gunner did not manage to drive away the pursuer, he was clearly a cool pilot. It was saved that the navigator knew the difficult route very well, and led to a place where several low mountains were in a chain one after another. while relocating to a local airfield, their plane with a young crew crashed, exceeding the speed limit and not knowing the terrain. Well, the neighbor said, the weather was not very good, with low clouds. I managed to take the plane to the last mountain, where the commander made a U-turn, flying around the mountain, and Fritz crashed at high speed in almost the same place where the crew that had died earlier. I am far from aviation, I tell from memory, but the story is real, I heard personally from the participant events ...
  25. DrVintorez
    DrVintorez 1 January 2017 20: 12
    +3
    Unfinished, unfinished. I especially liked about Tu2, which appeared "a little later". fierce Minus.
    1. Dekabrist
      Dekabrist 1 January 2017 20: 55
      +3
      And not thought out.
  26. evil partisan
    evil partisan 1 January 2017 21: 04
    +1
    Surprisingly, no one cited the very famous interview of Timofey Punev as an argument in favor of Pe-2. It seems to me that there about Pe-2 (from the point of view of the pilot) is almost exhaustive:
    http://airforce.ru/history/ww2/punev/
    There is an equally famous interview with Nikolai Anosov:
    http://airforce.ru/history/ww2/anosov/
  27. DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 January 2017 23: 33
    +2
    Quote: wicked partisan
    Surprisingly, no one cited the very famous interview of Timofey Punev as an argument in favor of Pe-2. It seems to me that there about Pe-2 (from the point of view of the pilot) is almost exhaustive:
    http://airforce.ru/history/ww2/punev/
    There is an equally famous interview with Nikolai Anosov:
    http://airforce.ru/history/ww2/anosov/

    Puneva mentioned a dozen posts above, judging by individual comments, people were not even interested in the issue of the combat use of the Pe-2. But I read an interview with N. Anosov at your link for the first time. The feeling is that these pilots literally "conspired" according to the correspondent's answers. Two different pilots, with different training, fought in different regiments, but the ratings and phrases sometimes coincide word for word! The Pe-2 was a good car.
  28. Alex
    Alex 2 January 2017 12: 56
    0
    Myasishchev managed to eliminate two main drawbacks of the pawn (strictness on take-off and landing and low bomb load) and radically improved flight data in 1944 on the Pe-2I, expanding the fuselage and changing the wing profile. The maximum speed at state tests is 656 km / h, the ceiling is 11000 m, the bombs are 2000 kg in the internal bomb bay. But the engine failed - VK-107A. There was also Pe-2M and also with VK-107A.
    There is a lot of literature about the pawn, for example, from the series "War in the Air" issue 113 "Pe-2".
  29. Pancer_Hrek
    Pancer_Hrek 2 January 2017 15: 54
    +2
    The VIT-100 had to leave at least a small series, like high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft and precisely the first-original high-altitude fighters, to fight the German high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft Yu-86, which made a significant contribution to the success of the Blitzkrieg, conducting reconnaissance flights with impunity over the Soviet suburban regions before the war.
  30. perevozthikov
    perevozthikov 2 January 2017 21: 48
    +4
    Well, a real kindergarten. Everyone is so smart in the comments, everyone knows. And it does not seem to you that this is the same as shouting from the bushes, but not showing up. Well, show your knowledge! Write an article that is literate in all respects, because ANYONE can publish an article! Or is there only enough skill to direct criticism? Criticism is certainly needed, but in the form of help, additions, tips. Well, who is brave? When to wait for the article? Currently 85 comments and most of the bushes. So you will sit in them?
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 2 January 2017 23: 49
      +1
      And you for the fact that PE-2 was a "guan"? Or for the fact that the PE-2 would be a perfectly normal front-line bomber?
      1. perevozthikov
        perevozthikov 3 January 2017 11: 16
        +1
        I am for not asking stupid questions. Understand this issue? Well, write a reasoned article in which both parties were considered, collect documentary facts. Or is it more convenient to do nothing, but only to write comments?
  31. lexseyOGK
    lexseyOGK 3 January 2017 12: 20
    +2
    Some commentators have gone through history, such as the Pe-2, an unfinished dive bomber from an unfinished fighter. I suggest remembering the A-36 Apache. A very good dive bomber. And remember the specially designed dive bomber "Helldiver". A minus note for the lack of objectivity and bias.
  32. DesToeR
    DesToeR 3 January 2017 12: 34
    +3
    Quote: perevozthikov
    I am for not asking stupid questions. Understand this issue? Well, write a reasoned article in which both parties were considered, collect documentary facts. Or is it more convenient to do nothing, but only to write comments?

    So no one asks stupid questions. As for the article, readers have already posted two links: interviews with pilots Punev and Anosov, who fought in the Pe-2. By the way, in these articles there is a very good justification why they bombed from horizontal flight. The Pe-2 required for dive bombing that the cloud height was not lower than 1300m. There is a rational explanation for everything, but they did not know how to say phrases in the spirit, could not, a small load, etc. as it is not confirmed by eyewitnesses ... Well, and the well-known American formula: increasing the accuracy of the strike by two times reduces the power of the warhead tenfold. An experienced Pe-2 crew could put bombs in a circle with a diameter of 50 m. In comparison with the Ju-87, the "pawn" made it possible to approach the target and drop bombs from a greater height with the same accuracy. All thanks to the presence of the navigator, who made corrections for wind and displacement into the sight. The Pe-2's dive speed was 720 km / h, which left anti-aircraft artillery almost no chance of getting into the plane. And the exit point from the dive lay at the limit of the action of 20mm anti-aircraft guns. A fighter pedigree made it possible to carry out anti-aircraft maneuvers with high speed and sharpness.
  33. unknown
    unknown 4 January 2017 14: 16
    +2
    At one time, the Wings of the Motherland magazine had a very solid, well-reasoned article that compared the combat capabilities of the Pe-2 and Ar-2. The conclusion is unambiguous. Not in favor of the Pe-2.
    With the current Pe-2 rating, commentators make a mistake similar to the T-34 tank rating. Tank Victory T-34-85 is a completely different machine than the T-34-76.
    To Pe-2 began to meet at least the minimum requirements, Myasishchev had to carry out a serious modernization of the aircraft, in particular, to increase the speed of serial copies to 534 km / h (actually it was in the region of 480 km / h). But even after that, the normal bomb load remained insufficient.
    Given the fact that the Tu-2 practically did not fight, the U-88 is considered to be the deservedly best WWII front-line bomber. By the way, he could lift up to 3000 kg of bombs.
    1. psy06
      psy06 5 January 2017 20: 23
      +1
      Plus, they compare the AR-2 of 40 and the Pe-2 of the 44th, but first you need to compare the Pe-2 of the same 40th. And here everything is not at all obvious.
  34. pafegosoff
    pafegosoff 4 January 2017 16: 59
    0
    And how does it differ significantly from a twin-engine messer?
  35. DesToeR
    DesToeR 4 January 2017 19: 11
    +3
    Quote: ignoto
    At one time, the Wings of the Motherland magazine had a very solid, well-reasoned article that compared the combat capabilities of the Pe-2 and Ar-2. The conclusion is unambiguous. Not in favor of the Pe-2.

    "Wings of the Motherland" is of course more authoritative than the military commission, which rejected the AR-2 ... as not meeting the requirements for defensive weapons (see posts above). Further, AR-2 is the modernization of the SB. The same Punev spoke of the SB as a very inert aircraft in terms of maneuvers. And this means that it will be much worse than the Pe-2 to perform anti-aircraft and anti-fighter maneuvers.
    Quote: ignoto
    To Pe-2 began to meet at least the minimum requirements, Myasishchev had to carry out a serious modernization of the aircraft, in particular, to increase the speed of serial copies to 534 km / h (actually it was in the region of 480 km / h).

    Those. speed increased by 54km / h. And how much has the speed of fighter jets increased over the same period? In addition, 480 km / h is not the maximum speed of an airplane without bombs. At this speed, the pilots flew so as not to ruin the life of the machine, when necessary - they accelerated to the passport.
    Quote: ignoto
    But even after that, the normal bomb load remained insufficient.

    Not enough for what? How do you define failure? Pe-2 threw bombs from a dive, i.e. an order of magnitude more accurate than the Yu-88 from horizontal flight. One Yu-88 or He-111 had to take 6-7 tons of bombs in order to achieve the results that the Pe-2 made 600-700 kg of bombs.
  36. Samuel Marshak
    Samuel Marshak 5 January 2017 01: 27
    +2
    To the minus author. There is not much information. Value judgments replace facts. The wikipedia article is more interesting.
  37. psy06
    psy06 5 January 2017 20: 13
    0
    Quote: Alf
    Quote: Captain Pushkin
    And it’s a pity, because Tu-2 with M-37 engines, among other things, was a very fast aircraft. The serial Tu-2 with the M-82 was inferior to him 70 kilometers.

    It’s true that only Soviet aircraft didn’t receive M-37 engines. They remained unclassified.


    Received, received, and the AM-37 was a complete engine. The motor did not go into series due to the employment of all production resources with the release of AM-38 for IL-2.
  38. psy06
    psy06 5 January 2017 20: 27
    +1
    Quote: DesToeR
    Quote: ignoto
    At one time, the Wings of the Motherland magazine had a very solid, well-reasoned article that compared the combat capabilities of the Pe-2 and Ar-2. The conclusion is unambiguous. Not in favor of the Pe-2.

    "Wings of the Motherland" is of course more authoritative than the military commission, which rejected the AR-2 ... as not meeting the requirements for defensive weapons (see posts above).

    Commissions are such commissions, How could the Pe-2 satisfy the same commission if its defensive armament was worse than that of Ar-2? And the bombing, and constant failures, and the inability to fly on one engine ...
  39. Mel Vlad
    Mel Vlad 6 January 2017 14: 26
    0
    during the war, pilots shot with personal weapons at the grave of Petlyakov at the Arskoye cemetery in Kazan
    1. RoTTor
      RoTTor 7 January 2017 14: 42
      +5
      Do not repeat delusional ravings of a cutter level
  40. hohol95
    hohol95 7 January 2017 13: 43
    +2
    Particularly impudent in design and effective according to the results of the raid was undertaken in the evening of July 13. Six Pe 2 planes from the 5th squadron of the 40th cap of the captain A.P. Tsurtsumiy, passing over Romanian territory more than 250 km at an altitude of 7 thousand meters, quietly approached the target, so that the Romanian fighters did not have time to get up from the airfield in a timely manner , and anti-aircraft guns opened fire only when the planes moved away from the target. As a result of the bombing, a fire broke out, two factory buildings were completely destroyed, 202 fuel tanks, 46 oil tanks, 2 warehouses were destroyed. Oil refining volumes immediately decreased by approximately 12–15%. The giant glow above the Unirea refinery hung for three days. For a long time, the Orion and Astra-Romania refineries failed.
    This blow forced the German and Romanian command to take decisive and original measures. Considering that due to serious losses, Soviet aircraft switched to night flights only, the Germans built three false Ploiesti (60, 30 and 7 km from the city) from cardboard, wood and sand at the expense of Romanian funds. The entire system of streets, oil refineries and distillation plants and industrial enterprises was made in full size, but with a decrease in buildings in height. In the area of ​​the false factories, pits were dug with a diameter corresponding to actual tanks, which were filled with crude oil, ignited by electrical contact and extinguished after a raid with a special asbestos cover using an automatic device. All the electric bulbs were connected to the control panel, on which a specialist worked, subordinate to the commandant of the air defense division.
  41. RoTTor
    RoTTor 7 January 2017 14: 41
    +1
    The customers of the English "Dehaviland - Mosquito" had similar thoughts about the purpose of the aircraft.
    1. RoTTor
      RoTTor 7 January 2017 14: 54
      +1
      ... and the Yak-28 - from front-line bombers - interceptors were converted into fighters ....
  42. wildcat3981
    wildcat3981 April 20 2017 17: 52
    0
    Why didn’t anyone remember the magnificent film “Dive Bomber Chronicle”? I think that the scriptwriter took the name not from the ceiling and consulted. The film was released in 1967, I think - there was no shortage of WWII FRONT pilots. And in the Union, films about the war at that time were approached very responsibly.
  43. psy06
    psy06 22 June 2017 14: 39
    0
    Quote: venik
    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
    And half a ton of bombs, if not cool, is not enough. especially if you need to hit specially protected targets.

    ====
    Firstly, the normal bomb load was 600 kg, but very often both 750 and 800 were taken. In general, the maximum load (the so-called overload load is 1 ton). Moreover, my father, who flew them as a navigator, after the war, during a training flight for practical bombing with a 1000 kg combat bomb "under the belly", fell into an unpleasant situation - on take-off after climbing 300 m, the right engine failed. There was nowhere to drop the bomb - I had to land. The pilot showed miracles of mastery and managed to land the car in the "overloaded version" on ONE engine, and WITHOUT any damage !!!

    With all due respect to your venerable relative, this is a "survivor's mistake." The vast majority of crews caught in this situation crashed. The Pe-2 was a deadly trap with a failed engine.