Military Review

Pistols of the Hungarian gunsmith Rudolf von Frommer (part 2)

In the first part, I described several pistols of the Hungarian weapons designer Rudolf von Frommer, namely: Frommer M1901, M1906 and M1910. Outwardly, these models undoubtedly had a characteristic family trait: a thin and long stem. Other pistols of that time also looked, for example, the Mauser C96, Luger P08 or Nambu Type 14. All Frommer pistols, developed before the 1910 year, there were structural differences: different ammunition, safety devices, sighting devices.

After a long pause, I continue to acquaint you with the further development of many forgotten Hungarian gunsmith. But once for outstanding achievements in creating weapons For the Armed Forces of Austria-Hungary, Emperor Franz Joseph granted Rudolf Frommer a title of nobility. But back to the weapon. The hero of this review will be a gun Frommer M.12, better known as Frommer Stop.

Pistol Frommer M.12 / Frommer Stop.
The Frommer Stop gun also has a recognizable appearance. If you look at it from the side, the barrel of a pistol vaguely resembles the barrel of a hunting vertical. And looking at the muzzle of the weapon (the outlet), it becomes clear that in this model the return spring is located above the barrel, in a separate channel. This layout is not new: 12 years ago, John Browning had already applied this solution in his M1900 pistol, better known as Browning No. 1.

Pistols of the Hungarian gunsmith Rudolf von Frommer (part 2)

Gun Frommer Stop, side view. Thanks to the channel above the barrel it can not be confused.

Muzzle cut Frommer Stop. The recoil spring is located above the barrel.

Low trunk location.
The lower position of the barrel relative to the pistol handle is intended to reduce the throwing of the weapon and the shoulder of recoil when shooting. And this, in turn, was supposed to improve the accuracy of the battle. By the way, many decades later, the scheme with the lower location of the barrel returned, but this time it was already implemented in revolvers. They have to increase the accuracy of shooting the trunks are located at the level of the lower chamber of the drum. As an example, I can bring the revolvers AEK-906 "Rhino", Chiappa Rhino and Mateba Unica.

Buffer spring.
In the nadstvolnom channel of the gun Frommer Stop is not one, but two springs of different stiffness and diameter. Both springs are put on the guide rod and form a spring block. Thanks to the spring block located above the barrel, Frommer counted on reducing the length of the weapon. And he succeeded: the total length of the gun Stop is 160 mm with a barrel length 100 mm, and the length of the previous model (1910 year) is equal to 186 mm with the same barrel length.

On Frommer Stop, a larger diameter spring (returnable) returns the bolt to the forward position. And the task of a spring of a smaller diameter (buffer) is to slightly soften the impact after a shot when the bolt is rolled back. That is, the presence of a buffer is designed to soften the operation of the pistol automation. By the way, the buffer spring solution was used in the development of the modern Heckler & Koch USP pistol and also to reduce recoil when firing.

Spring block pistol Frommer Stop. 6 is a return spring, 7 is a guide rod, 8 is a buffer spring.

A nadstvolny channel for the spring unit and the trunk housing were a single piece (receiver). The receiver was a fixed part, it was attached to the frame of the gun and was not folding.

Gun Frommer Stop in the cut. Viewed spring, barrel, bolt.

Automation action
Frommer Stop refers to self-loading pistols (semi-auto). That is, to make another shot - the arrow is required to pull the trigger. But this was not always the case: at the turn of the 19 and 20 centuries, when such pistols were just beginning their march through the world, they were called automatic.

The operation of the automatic pistol is based on the recoil of the movable barrel with its locking by turning the bolt. For his gun, Rudolf Frommer chose a rather exotic for this class of weapon a locking scheme: with a long barrel stroke. In this scheme, the barrel stroke is equal to the gate stroke.

The scheme of the automatic weapons with a long stroke barrel.

Another Austro-Hungarian designer of Czech origin, Karel Krnka, was also keen on long-stroke closures. At that time, Karel worked with Georg Roth and participated in the development of pistols such as Roth-Theodorovic-Krnka 1895, Roth-Sauer 1900, Roth-Steyr 1907. And since Frommer and Krnka were not only contemporaries, but also compatriots - the designers could easily cooperate or at least exchange experience, discuss their ideas and share plans for the future.

The main part of the node locking gun Frommer Sop barrel is the bolt. For its basis, the designer took the shutter rifle Ferdinand Manlicher: Mannlicher M1895. The M.95 rifle was adopted by the Austro-Hungarian Army in 1895 and was produced at an arms factory in Budapest from 1897 to 1918. Since Frommer worked for many years at this factory, and at 1914, by order of the emperor, he was appointed director of the factory — naturally, he was well acquainted with the design of the Mannisher rifle.

Mannicher rifle bolt. Pay attention to the following brands: Budapest, M95.

A distinctive feature of the shutter rifle Mannicher was the principle of its action. To lock and unlock the barrel, the arrow did not need to turn the shutter (direct action). To reload the weapon, simply move the bolt back (throwing the cartridge case) back and then forward to send the cartridge to the chamber. The rotation of the larvae for locking was carried out automatically due to the special spiral-shaped grooves on its stem. This principle of locking somewhat increased the rate of fire, but it complicated the design and, accordingly, made production more expensive.

For his gun Frommer changed the design of the gate Mannicher. The reloading of the weapon was not due to the muscular strength of the shooter, but due to the automatic operation of the pistol.

Shutter gun Frommer Stop. Pay attention to the spiral grooves.

The head of the bolt-case pistol Frommer Stop. Pulling for it, the shooter cocks the weapon.

The bolt group of the gun Frommer Stop. At the top of the trunk, below the bolt in the head of the bolt carrier.

Shutter in extreme forward position. Barrel locked bolt.

The slide frame head is pulled back. Disconnected trunk and bolt.

Like most parts of the gun Frommer Stop, the elements of the bolt group (shutter and head of the shutter), as well as the barrel was made an expensive method of processing workpieces on metalworking machines.

USM pistol Frommer Stop single action (not self-cocking), hammer type. The arming of weapons is carried out manually. To do this, pull the bolt head over.

Cocking the gun Frommer Stop. Pay attention to the guide rod of the spring block above the bolt.

The cock is cocked, in the center of the head of the shutter is an inertial drummer. In this perspective, weapons have their own unique forms. Key (pedal) automatic fuse on the back of the handle. It will automatically shut off only if you tightly grip the handle.

Cocked pistol in the cut.

Frommer Stop is equipped with an automatic fuse only, no other fuses are provided.

Like the earlier models of Rudolf Frommer, the Frommer Stop M. 12 pistol was designed for cartridges also designed by Frommer.

Frommer pistols were produced under the ammunition 7,65x17mm Frommer Long and 9x17mm Frommer. Frommer's cartridges were close in geometry to the 7,62 and Browning's 9-mm cartridges, but differed by an increased weight of the powder charge. The cartridges of Frommer and Browning were not interchangeable, but people write that theoretically shooting “non-native” cartridges is possible. However, no one will vouch for the reliability of work.

On the forum, the owner of the Roth-Steyr pistol wrote that when using new Fiocchi 7,65-mm ammunition, the automatics of the weapon did not work. An experienced user advised the collector arrow to buy Czech-made cartridges, as they will be “hot”.

Below I give a comparative table of similar in characteristics and geometry of the cartridges.

Frommer Stop (M.12)
In the 1867 year, the empire of Austria-Hungary (Austro-Hungarian agreement) was formed. Then Hungary gained the right to form its own armed forces (Magyar Királyi Honvédség). In accordance with the signed agreement, the Hungarian military units were part of the armed forces of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. In 1912, the Hungarian army adopted the M.12 pistol designed by Rudolf Frommer as a service weapon. Since it was supposed to be sold for export, they came up with a name that was sonorous and understandable all over the world: “Stop”. As conceived by brand managers, the word “Stop” should have meant that this gun was able to stop any target, as if hinting at a high stopping effect. Under this name, Frommer's 1912 gun of the year and entered history.
Perhaps the same marketing move was repeated two decades later by the Belgians, when they began to offer a Browning pistol under the designation High-Power (English) and Grande Puissance (French) - Great Power.

The Frommer Stop pistol fell on time and to the spot, because a year later the Archduke Ferdinand was killed in Sarajevo and the whole world went insane: the Great War began. During the 1 world pistol, Frommer Stop was adopted not only by the Hungarian, but also by the entire imperial army (Austrian-Hungarian armed forces). At the same time, the gun was sold to Germany, Turkey and Bulgaria, because war is the best engine for the arms trade. During the war (1912 – 1918), 275 produced thousands of Frommer Stop pistols under the designation M.12.

Frommer Stop (M.19)
In the fall of 1918 of the year (October 17), the Hungarian parliament tore up the Austro-Hungarian agreement and proclaimed the independence of Hungary. In the spring of 1919 (March 21), the Hungarian Soviet Republic was formed, and a few days later (March 25), the formation of the Red Army began. In the process of formation, the Frommer Stop pistol was adopted by the Hungarian Red Army. Since the formation of the army took place in 1919, the pistol received the designation M.19. Already 16 April Soviet Hungary launched a war with Romania because of the desire to regain Transylvania. The Romanian-Hungarian war ended with the defeat of the Red Army, and the Romanian troops paraded through the streets of Budapest. The Soviet Hungarian Republic fell, having existed for only a few months. After the fall of Soviet Hungary, the monarchy was restored by the forces of the Hungarian monarchists (the king was not determined) and a regent was appointed.

In Hungary, the 20s also formed a government: the National Assembly. The Hungarian National Assembly announced on August 9 of 1919 of the re-establishment of the Nemzeti Hadsereg (National Army). And the Frommer Stop pistol, also under the designation M.19, was also adopted by the Hungarian National Army. In addition to the army, the gun Frommer M.19 was used as a service weapon in the Hungarian police and gendarmerie, as well as in the secret police.

Based on the foregoing, it turns out that the Frommer Stop pistol (M.19) twice was used by the Hungarian army during the 1 year: first the Red, then the National. Between 1919 and 1920, 90 thousands of Frommer Stop were produced under the designation M.19.

Frommer Stop (M.39)
In 1938, Hungary made an alliance with Hitler, since the latter promised to return the former territories to Hungary. At the beginning of 1939, Hungary rebuilt the economy on a war footing and begins to prepare for war. At the same time (for unclear reasons), the Frommer Stop pistol was again adopted by the Hungarian Armed Forces, but under the designation M.39. Already in March, Hungarian troops occupied the Transcarpathian Ukraine and captured such large cities as Uzhgorod and Mukachevo. And 1 September 1939, the Wehrmacht and Allied troops invade Poland. As a result, the whole world went crazy again: the 2-I World War began.

There is evidence that allegedly at the end of 30-s an export version of the pistol was developed under the designation “M-1939”, but the project was closed due to the start of the 2-th World War.

In the museum of military history of Hungary (Budapest), Frommer's pistol with an unusual butt is displayed. As a result of searches, I found additional information about this accessory. It turned out that this is the folding butt of Benke-Teiman (Benke-Thiemann shoulder shoulder stock). It is made of sheet steel by stamping. When folded, the parts of the butt are superimposed on the pistol grip twice. Shooting is possible both with a folded butt, and with the butt laid out. Since the product is attached to the handle of the weapon with the help of through bolts - the butt can not be called quick-detachable. I did not see the fastening elements of the belt to the butt, but it seemed to be offered a massive holster of a special design. Perhaps to use the belt was supposed to attach it with a carbine to the sab at the base of the pistol grip.

The gun Frommer Stop with a folding butt. On the left, the stock is folded; on the right, the stock is decomposed into a fighting position.

During the folding of the butt into the fighting position, he resembles both a crossbow and butterfly wings at the same time. This stock did not use special demand, therefore a limited batch of several dozen units was made. The butt got more widespread as an accessory for the Luger pistol (a few hundred were made) and therefore has been preserved to this day in a somewhat larger number. At the end of the article, watch a video demonstrating the folding butt for the Luger P08 pistol.

Automatic pistol (full-auto).
According to unconfirmed reports, a version of the automatic pistol was developed on the basis of the Frommer Stop pistol. Presumably, it was used on the Italian front in 1917. It was the First World War, and the troops of Austria-Hungary and Germany opposed Italy and its allied forces. This model (let's call it Frommer Stop Machine Pistol) differed from the base of an elongated barrel and a high-capacity magazine that contained 15 cartridges. Also at the base of the pistol grip there was an additional detail that was located along the store. Presumably, the part served as a guide for the store, so that the shooter could more easily insert the magazine into the handle.

Automatic pistol Frommer Stop Machine Pistol.

It is not known whether the automatic firing mode was auxiliary or main. In a single photo, it is not visible whether there is a fire mode switch. Perhaps this gun had the opportunity to fire only in bursts (continuous fire).

Submachine gun Frommer Stop M.17
Perhaps Frommer Stop Machine Pistol was an experimental model, made in a single copy. Or maybe Machine Pistol is a stage of evolution from a pistol to a pistol-machine gun, which will be discussed below. And if there is reason to doubt the existence of an automatic pistol, then the existence of a submachine gun can be seen by visiting the military history museum in the city of Vienna (Austria). He was called and classified differently: Pistolen-MG M.17; Reihenfeuerpistole M.17; Sturmpistole M.17; Frommer double barrel machine gun mod. 17.

The basis for M.17 was two twin pistols, which were mounted on the machine upside down (upside down). Pistols differed from the M.12 in that they lost triggers and brackets, USM allowed to fire only in bursts and there was no fuse. The automatic fuse key performed the descent function. The barrel was several millimeters longer than on the base model M.12.

At the base of the pistol grip, as in the full-auto version, there is an additional part along the magazine. But it is already curved in the form of a spur. Food is supplied from high-capacity stores, which were placed first on 25, and then on 30 cartridges.

Frommer Stop M.17 without trigger and shackle, but with a high capacity magazine. Note the spur at the base of the handle.

It soon became clear that the length of the trunk is not enough. Therefore, in order to increase the range of the flight of the bullet, its slaughter and penetrative action, it was necessary to increase the initial velocity. Pistols equipped with trunks whose length was equal to 250 mm. The elongated trunks lost their flies as unnecessary, and the pistol grips were left without wooden cheeks.

The final version of the software Frommer Stop M.17. Pay attention to the shutter head.

PP Frommer Stop M.17 on the machine.

PP Frommer Stop very thoroughly and correctly described Kirill Ryabov, therefore, who is interested in the details - he will find them in an article by Kirill Click here

Comparison table with TTX pistols Frommer M.12 and M.17

About factory
The gun Frommer Stop produced at the Budapest Arms Factory. It was founded in 1891, and stopped producing weapons in 2004. I found out that after 2004, as a result of the embargo - the Budapest arms factory was reorganized, redeveloped and renamed “FEG Closed Joint-Stock Company Manufacturer of Convectors”, became part of the “MFP” holding and started producing heating equipment.

Gun Frommer Stop at the movies

Hello to you from Gorilla / Le Gorille vous salue bien (France, 1958 year)

Popol (Francois Darbon) threatens the Gorilla with a pistol.

Suspend all risk / Classe tous risques (France, 1960 year)

The very young Jean-Paul Belmondo in the role of Eric Stark with a gun Frommer Stop in hand.

Two and a half times in hell / Two Half-Times in Hell (Hungary, 1961 year)

The German general shoots Steiner (Dej Г Garash) with a Frommer Stop pistol.

Funeral in Berlin / Funeral in Berlin (United Kingdom, 1966 year)

One of Krutsmann's henchmen with a Frommer Stop gun.

For a time / Chvíle (Czechoslovakia, 1972 year)

Revolutionary Vladimir (Jiri Bartoshka) with a gun Frommer Stop.

Mad Gold (USSR, Mosfilm, 1976 year)

Gleb Strizhenov in the role of Joe Parsons with a gun Frommer Stop.

Anthropoid / Anthropoid (Czech Republic, United Kingdom, France, 2016 year)

Resistance fighter with a gun Frommer Stop.

The gun Frommer Stop on TV

Pepper / Bors (Hungary, 1968 year)

Hungarian soldier Matt Bors (Istvan Stankai) with a Frommer Stop gun.

Hitler: Rise of the Devil / Hitler: The Rise of Evil (Canada, USA, 2003 year)

Hitler (Robert Carlisle) with a Frommer Stop gun during the Beer Putsch that happened on November 9 of the year 1923.

The gun Frommer Stop in games

German soldier with a gun Frommer Stop.

Frommer Stop Machine Pistol chambered for 380 ACP. The automatic pistol Frommer Stop with an extended barrel and a high-capacity magazine. In the game, the store holds 14 cartridges plus one in the chamber, real stores hold 15 cartridges. Available for classes "Pilot" and "Tanker".

In spite of the fact that Frommer Stop / M.12 pistols were expensive to manufacture and difficult to maintain, they were considered quite good weapons and enjoyed steady demand in the arms market. Frommer Stop was made from high quality materials, were reliable and easy to handle. Despite the specific ammunition, the pistol was produced in large quantities, was quite widespread and earned popularity in the central part of Europe. Adopted in 1912, Frommer Stop was 1-th world and participated in the 2-th world along with newer and more advanced models.

Since Frommer Stop pistols have survived to this day in quite a large number, you can buy them at a reasonable price. So, at a GunBroker auction, a sample in good condition can be purchased at around $ 220-300.

In the following parts read about other developments of the Hungarian weapons designer Rudolf von Frommer.

The author thanks Bongo for the advice.


Information sources:
“Pistols of the World”. Authors: Ian Hogg and John Walter.
“Infantry Weapons”. Authors: Victor Murakhovsky and Semen Fedoseyev.
“Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole”. Authors: Josef Mötz and Joschi Schuy.,_Murahovskiii_-_Oruzhie_pehoty._Spravochnik.html
[/ size
Shooting Frommer Stop, Slow Motion

Dismantling the gun Frommer Stop

Benke-Teiman folding butt for a pistol Luger.

“Pistols of the World”. Authors: Ian Hogg and John Walter.
Photos used:
“Pistols of the World”. By Ian Hogg and John Walter. "Infantry weapon". Authors: Victor Murakhovsky and Semyon Fedoseev. “Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole”. Authors: Josef Mötz and Joschi Schuy.,_Murahovskiii_-_Oruzhie_pehoty ._Spravochnik.html http://unblinkingeyfiki/en/ Frommer_Stop http: / / html http: //www.littlegun. info / arme% 20nat% 20div / a% 20hun% 20frommer% 20stop% 20gb.htm http: / / / 43-1-0-473 7_65x13sr.htm
Articles from this series:
Pistols of the Hungarian gunsmith Rudolf von Frommer (part I)
21 comment

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  1. GEV67
    GEV67 27 December 2016 15: 40
    Very interesting article. Thanks to the author.
    1. Mister X
      27 December 2016 16: 27
      Quote: GEV67
      Very interesting article. Thanks to the author.

      hi Thank you for your rating and comment!
  2. Indifference
    Indifference 27 December 2016 15: 58
    Thanks for the article, so much need to shovel information, it was interesting !!!
    1. Mister X
      27 December 2016 16: 32
      Quote: Indiffeent
      Thank you for the article

      Quote: Indiffeent
      it was interesting!!!

      To your health!
      Quote: Indiffeent
      so much need to shovel information

      I collected and systematized this data with great enthusiasm.
      I wrote the first part in the summer of 2013 and got distracted by something. And recently I found an unfinished topic and decided to continue.
      Glad I worked for a good reason!
      1. sub307
        sub307 27 December 2016 17: 09
        Article - "super" .. no more words.
        1. Mister X
          27 December 2016 18: 53
          Quote: sub307
          Article - "super" .. no more words.

          hi This is the highest praise of my work!
      2. Amurets
        Amurets 28 December 2016 07: 13
        Quote: Mister X
        I wrote the first part in the summer of 2013 and got distracted by something. And recently I found an unfinished topic and decided to continue.

        Thank! I was surprised to see that the first part of the article was published more than 3 years ago. Frommer's work is little known. He remained in the shadow of Manliher and other armourers of Austria-Hungary. Your work is informative and I liked it. Thank.
        1. Mister X
          28 December 2016 11: 20
          Quote: Amurets
          About Frommer's work is little known. He remained in the shadow of Mannicher and other gunsmiths of Austria-Hungary.

          Karel Krnka, the son of gunsmith Sylvester Krnka from Prague, also remained in the shadows. As I wrote in the article, Karel worked for Georg Roth and did not shine. For a long time, the contribution of Karel Krnka remained obscure and unappreciated.
          Quote: Amurets
          Your work is informative and I liked it. Thank.

          Thank! I try to study and explain the subject to such an extent that I myself have no questions left.
    2. zyablik.olga
      zyablik.olga 28 December 2016 04: 48
      Quote: Indiffeent
      Thanks for the article, so much need to shovel information, it was interesting !!!

      For Michael, the most careful processing of sources in the preparation of publications is generally characteristic. You can also note a very good literary style of presentation! good
      1. Mister X
        28 December 2016 11: 22
        hi Glad to have banned!
        Quote: zyablik.olga
        You can also note a very good literary style of presentation!

        It is what it is. At school, I wrote for other writings, and as a student I wrote classmates coursework and letters to their girls winked
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. Mister X
      27 December 2016 18: 57
      Quote: rudolff
      Very sensible, read with pleasure. Respect the author!

      After publication, I noticed that I did not describe the interaction of mechanisms. Correcting (taken from
      In the normal state, the bolt and barrel are almost completely hidden in the fixed casing, from which only the boltwork head protrudes from behind, for which the weapon is cocked by hand.
      Before the shot, the barrel is in the forward position and rigidly engaged with a rotary bolt having two radial combat stops.
      When fired, the barrel and bolt together roll back to the full length of the automation, after which the bolt carrier is intercepted in the rearmost position, and the barrel and bolt begin to move forward under the action of the return spring of the barrel.
      The longitudinal movement of the shutter relative to the fixed bolt carrier causes the bolt to rotate and disengage from the barrel due to the spiral protrusions on the bolt shank and the corresponding slots in the bolt carrier.
      After disengagement from the barrel, the bolt group remains stationary. and the barrel returns to the front position, during which the extraction and ejection takes place through a window in the casing of the spent cartridge, held by the extractor at the gate mirror. After the barrel arrives in the forward position, it turns off the bolt of the bolt group, and under the action of its return spring it comes to the forward position, sending a new cartridge to the barrel on the way, and at the end of the roll-in again engaging the bolt with the barrel.
  4. cap
    cap 27 December 2016 19: 00
    From the article delighted. Informative and professionally written. Thanks to the author. hi
    1. Mister X
      27 December 2016 19: 41
      Quote: cap
      From the article delighted. Informative and professionally written. Thanks to the author.

      hi Thank! After such comments I want to continue working!
      1. cap
        cap 27 December 2016 19: 45
        Quote: Mister X
        Quote: cap
        From the article delighted. Informative and professionally written. Thanks to the author.

        hi Thank! After such comments I want to continue working!

        We will wait. Good luck in your creative search! hi
  5. Zulu_S
    Zulu_S 27 December 2016 21: 51
    Not without difficulty I found the first part of the article, read it with pleasure. I hope for a quick continuation. As a wish - in the text of the next article, make links to the previous parts. It would be great if this became the practice of all "serial" publications. And thanks for the article. Interesting, informative. Good luck!
    1. Mister X
      27 December 2016 22: 42
      Quote: Zulu_S
      As a wish - in the text of the next article to make references to the previous parts.

      hi And there is a link at the end of the article: between the list of references and the video in the topic there is a block "Articles from this series".
      Quote: Zulu_S
      And for the article - thanks. Interesting, informative. Successes

      Thank you!
  6. serezhasoldatow
    serezhasoldatow 28 December 2016 08: 52
    Frankly, the first time I hear about such a weapon. Thanks, very interesting.
    1. Mister X
      28 December 2016 12: 05
      Quote: serezhasoldatow
      Frankly the first time I hear about such weapons.

      To tell you the truth - I also found out about this gunsmith by chance.
      Quote: serezhasoldatow
      Thanks, very interesting.

      You are welcome!
  7. Oslyabya
    Oslyabya 28 December 2016 09: 10
    Thanks to the author!
    1. Mister X
      28 December 2016 12: 06
      Quote: Oslyabya
      Wonderful! Thanks to the author!

      Thank! I hope the following articles on the topic will also please you.