Where can the road of memory and repentance lead us?

174
The memory of past events and people is wonderful. This is a necessary and noble cause, and we are very actively working in this direction. Repentance is also a rather positive process, if you have something to repent of.

However, some events in our country, especially in recent times, make us think and ask the question: are we going that way? Especially since the question seems to be forced by actions of “our” people. According to the passport, at least.



There are a lot of words and letters, so I’ll just ask you to be patient and read with me the results to which the processes I have voiced can lead.

I'll start with Butov.

Anyone can quite easily find on the Internet a bunch of links on the topic of “Russian Golgotha”. I also got acquainted.

The first (and the second too) impression: someone once laid out the material, which is now all copied, absolutely without going into details. But essentially the same thing everywhere.

"According to official data only, from August 1937 to October 1938, 20 765 people were shot here."

Meanwhile, it is official sources, including even on the website devoted to Butov, suggest that for ALL the period from 1935 to 1953. 27 508 people were sentenced to capital punishment in Moscow and the Moscow Region.

The original source is clearly one: the Butovo Polygon series of books. The memory book for victims of political repression 1937-1938. A series - because the book had several reprints.

If you omit the already familiar Internet “jaundice”, which tells that people were being shot from 200 to 500 per day, then there are still a lot of questions.

Especially when you start to read the "testimony" of "NKVD employees." Any and all about. the commandant ”(the commandant of which is not indicated anywhere), the drivers of the NKVD motor depot and other“ witnesses and eyewitnesses ”.

The commandant says that the execution team consisted of a 3-4 person. Imputed and verifiable figure. The driver claims that in the days of mass executions a special squad of 12 people was involved. Well, the driver knows best, believe it. Although on many sites of “truth-seekers”, the figure of a 4 person still sounds more often.

Applying a calculator, you get terrible numbers. It turns out that these were not ordinary people, they were some kind of cyborg! From 50-ti a day - how was it supposed to work? Many of those discussing wrote that nothing was impossible for the NKVD, which means that they could get hold of machine guns and PPD / PPSh. And yet, after the machine gun or machine gun was required what? That's right, control shot.

In general, descriptions of how people were shot in the Lubyanka and other places are more than enough. From people who for some reason believe more than “chauffeurs” and “commandants”, pushing the reader to the idea that certain monsters mowed down people with machine guns.

I do not argue, there were executions. And this is in any case a tragedy that needs to be known. But you need to know the truth, and not invented by someone history.

Isn't this what the "debunkers of myths" advocate about Panfilov's heroes and Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya?

I am also "for" with both hands. Therefore, we go further.

So, “to whom it is profitable” to replicate the tale of “Russian Calvary”?

The first, of course, is Mr. Garkavy, Director of the Memorial Scientific and Educational Center "Butovo". For the more attention, the more money. To the credit of Garkavy, he does not hide it.

"To begin with, we had to stop the construction of a microdistrict of several multi-storey buildings here in Drozhzhino ... it was decided to preserve this place as a historical monument ... a project of improvement and landscaping of the monument "Butovo landfill" is ready ... it will be necessary decide on the financing of works on improvement.

This question is put before the joint board of the government of Moscow and the Moscow region. If we talk about what we could really do now with the availability of funds, we could seriously proceed to the improvement of the territory ... Requires money for repairs, and in fact the restoration of the surviving manor outbuilding. We assumed in this building to organize a museum.

Funds required и for our archival work, current workbecause we need and consumables and appliancesand at least some salaries to people... The deeper we are working on this project, the more problems arise so far. And mostly purely domestic. It is necessary to solve the question of communications: first of all electricity. We must keep the gas, everything must be changed."


In general, there are plenty of plans, so "we need more gold." Mr. Garkavy to perpetuate the memory of the innocent victims. Especially, probably, in terms of salaries.

In itself, the idea of ​​perpetuating memory is noble and beautiful. And the people who do it are worthy of all respect and reverence. But that is why I said so somewhat sarcastically to Mr. Garkavy, it will become clear a little later.

But “the process is underway,” Butovo was pulled out of the hands of Luzhkov, who was going to build another neighborhood there (I think that this is not so bad), at the very least, they are working on the memorial. Even Putin was somehow brought to worship.

But Garkavoi’s appetite is growing.

"20 thousandth the list is considered incomplete, they say that hundreds of thousands were shot here"- says Igor Garkavy".

And the crowds of volunteer helpers-accusers begin, like a flock of parrots, to shout that hundreds of thousands of people were shot in Butovo.

At this rate, apparently, over 5-10, it will already be about millions of years ...

Strange, but I am surprised by another. On the outskirts of Moscow (even if in those years Butovo was a hoo what kind of outskirts) such mass executions took place, and until recently nothing was heard about them. Even in the time of Khrushchev, when everything connected with Stalin was plentifully pulled out into the light of day and poured ... And not one of the most overlooked documentation that somehow confirms the existence of a certain "special object" in Butovo. Okay, secrecy creation orders to "I can not." It happens. But at least the waybill from the "driver" could be preserved?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

On the other hand, in the Central Archive of the FSB there is such a fund number 7, which stores acts on the enforcement of sentences. The NKVD was not a sharashkin office, and it was thanks to this fact and proper accountability that the details of the deaths of many people became known. Including, and unfairly convicted.

A group of researchers led by Oleg Borisovich Mozokhin in 1993, studies were made in this fund. Naturally, among the documents declassified by Decree of the President of Russia No. 658 of 23.06.1992 of the Year.

But even the declassified documents were enough to make conclusions that in 1921-1928. burials of victims of repression were carried out on the territory of the Yauza hospital, from 1926 to 1936. - at Vagankovsky cemetery, and from 1935 to 1953. - partially burial, partially cremation of the executed was carried out in the Moscow crematorium at Donskoy cemetery.

There were clear instructions to the commandants of the cemeteries (yes, the cemeteries of that time were part of the NKVD system), plans of action and dates. For each fact of burial or cremation there was a memo in which it was required to bury a certain number of people with a list of names. Usually - from 10 to 20 per day.

About Butovo there - not a word. Despite the fact that the documents in the fund number 7, you know, for fifty years of analysis.

But the existence of the archive and the fact that Mozokhin worked there is not in doubt. At least on his personal site, he continues to lay out the documents, which only confirms all that has been said.

However, many people who advocate exposing everything and everyone refer to a very interesting fact. Say, a certain "public group" under the leadership of a certain M. Mindlin, discovered in 1991, perhaps ... I’ll probably go back to quoting again.

"... at the end of 1991, unknown previously unrecognized 18 volumes of cases with prescriptions and acts on the execution of 20675 executions of people in the period from 8 in August 1937 to 19 in October 1938 of the year were found in the archives of the Moscow Office of the Moscow Office ..."

"And only at the end of 1991 of the year in the archives of the Moscow Office of MB unknown and unregistered materials were found. More precisely - 18 volumes of cases with instructions and acts on execution of executions of executions of 20 675 people from August 1937 to October 1938 of the year ... One of the "veterans" of the NKVD, whose name the powerful department did not want to open, certified their signatures and confirmed the presence of "special objects" "In Butovo and in" Kommunarka ""
.

That's how it is! Mozokhin, acting on the orders of the president, did not find him in 1993, and Mindlin, in 1991, just took a “social group”, went to some kind of “archive of the Moscow Office of the MB” and found 18 volumes there.

And who is this wonder search engine Mindlin?

Mikhail Borisovich Mindlin (b. Moscow, 2 March, March 1956) - Russian art historian, director of the Rublev Museum, an expert in the field of modern art and architecture. Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Arts (2012), member of the Public Council of the Russian Jewish Congress.

Oops ... Specialist in the field of modern art and architecture ... Sometimes, newcomers are lucky. But for some reason, the belief that an art worker could rummage in the archives so easily that year decreases catastrophically quickly. Not those times after all, not those ...

I have been looking for a very long time where I can at least approximately get acquainted with these documents. Still, it was believed that they are. And that's what I found.

The same book “Butovo Polygon. 1937-1938 Book of memory of victims of political repression.

Published in Moscow, Institute of Experimental Sociology. 1997. Issue 1. 364 with.

3100 references to those shot and buried at the Butovo firing range during the 07.08.1937-19.10.1938 period. The material is in general alphabetical order.

Information content: last name, first name, patronymic, year of birth, place of birth, nationality, social origin, partisanship, education, place of residence (address), date of arrest, condemning body, date of conviction, charge, date of execution, date of rehabilitation.

Believe it? And I believe.

Moving on.

“Butovo polygon. 1937-1938 Book of memory of victims of political repression.

Moscow, publishing house "Panorama". 1998. Issue 2. 362 with.

About 2300 certificates on people shot and buried at the Butovo training ground during the 07.08.1937-19.10.1938 period and about 370 certificates on Dmitlag prisoners who were shot in 1937-38. The material is in general alphabetical order.

Information content: last name, first name, patronymic, year of birth, place of birth, nationality, social origin, partisanship, education, place of residence (address), date of arrest, condemning body, date of conviction, charge, date of execution, date of rehabilitation.

For the prisoners of Dmitlag, in addition: what work he did in prison, the sentence of the first conviction, arrest and conviction in the camp.

Believe it? And I believe. Great job.

Next was the 4 release from Alzo.

No. 3. 1999 d. 360 with. About 2250 references of the same content and 400 references to prisoners Dmitlag.

No. 4. 2000 d. 364 with. About 2250 certificates for people shot and buried at the Butovo training ground during the 07.08.1937-19.10.1938 period and about 400 certificates for Dmitlag prisoners.

No. 5. 2001. 362 with. About 2700 references.

No. 6. 2002. Issue 6. 322 with. 1176 Help

Do not believe the work done is simply impossible. But here is what lurks between these releases, and what many “debunkers” refer to.

A martyrologist shot and buried at the site of the NKVD "Object Butovo" 08.08.1937-19.10.1938. Moscow-Butovo. Zachatievsky monastery. 1997. 421 with.

20765 references to those shot and buried in Butovo during the 08.08.1937-19.10.1938 period. The material is in general alphabetical order. A separate list presents the clergymen who were shot in Butovo. Contents of the certificate: last name, first name, patronymic, year of birth, place of birth, date of execution.

Apparently, here they are, these 18 volumes? Alas ... These lists are also online. But not in the form of photocopies or scans. A simple list, recruited in the "Word". And no references to real documents. Although there are links. True, for a change, not on “and. about. the commandant ”or“ NKVD driver ”refers to the words of anonymous“ local residents ”and a certain“ Employee of the Center for Public Relations of the FSB, in the past, deputy head of the Rehabilitation Group, Colonel of the FSB ”M.Ye. Kirillin.

For fidelity, apparently, in order to pin down precisely, interviews of this “colonel” are published somewhere else. He told in colors (?) How almost round-the-clock executions were carried out.

The fact that there is no such gentleman, I am sure. It is enough to read the nonsense that he writes. Here's how, for example:
http://karta.psmb.ru/karta/articlesingle/rasskaz-polkovnika-fsb-m-e-kirillina-ob-obnaruzhenii-m/.

It is rather funny that the colonel of the FSB is quoted either in a sect, or do not understand where. But significant.

That's all the "proofs". Was there a boy?

In general, it seems that in 1997, some "archaeological research" was carried out. Opened one of the burial ditches. And they found horror:

“... on the total square of 12 square meters. meters found burial in five layers; experts counted the remains of 149 people here. A great work on the detection of ditches was carried out in the summer of 2002. Experts have identified and mapped 13 funeral ditches. But the studies are not completed, many questions have not yet been answered. "

On already extinct sites, the original figure was 49. Someone later dranoved edinichku, but it looks frivolous.

so what's the problem? There are questions - you need to answer them! Enough already refer to the words of unknown, nameless and frankly fictional "witnesses." And on the “unaccounted for (this is in the NKVD!) Archives.” Moreover, as I understood, nobody saw these “volumes” in the eyes except Mindlin and his public assistants. Very secret. Although it is possible that these volumes are simply the work of this group. Nakolotili on the keyboard. Who will understand there?

After all, indeed, if there were burials of those shot, it is necessary to open the ditches, conduct an exhumation, examination, organize a funeral service and reburial. As it is done year after year, search engines with our fallen soldiers.

Alive - a worthy cause, dead - a worthy rest.

But for some reason I have not found such plans anywhere. Although even if the money question, throw a cry on search engines, will respond, I'm sure. Moreover, it is a pro in such matters.

And Mr. Garkavy? Look above: "... you need to keep electricity, you need to drive gas, you have to rebuild everything ..."

What comes out, like this, on the bones, immediately, a museum and a memorial complex, right? Original ...

Thirteen moats, “to the top filled with dead people", will remain so? How is it? Strange, well, very strange. Somehow not at all in our language ...

"The Butovo polygon is one of the largest in Europe places of mass executions and burials of victims of political repression."

Yeah, already have that.

The evidence base in the form of remains (those 49 or 149, too, was not shown anywhere) with bullet marks, no documents. But the complex must be, for it is simply necessary to repent.

The foolishness bears from all this and the ideas of Dr. Goebbels. Too much frank fiction and inconsistencies. Today, in the access of cars, evidence that the sentences were carried out in basements and courtyards of prisons, and the corpses were taken to the nearest cemetery. I admit that Butovo could be such a place. But there is still a difference between the cemetery and the place of mass executions. Or not?

In any case, whatever it is, you first need to make excavations and examination. And only then to build temples (Alexy II laid, yes), museums and memorials. But it still comes out strange, excursions, walking on the bones. Moat moats, but who said that everything is exactly there?

And when there will be official results of the examination, with traces of bullet holes, carbon analysis of the remains, cartridge cases for checking the weapons from which the shots were fired - that's when it is worth talking about something serious.

Not sure if there were Germans in 1941 there, maybe not, but they could have approached. Podolskaya line of fortifications took place in those places, and the fighting could be. And if they were there, then all the more you should not discount this version. As well as in the 90-x, on the site of the former NKVD base, one of the Moscow organized criminal groups could easily organize their personal cemetery.

Expertise is needed first. And for some reason, this is precisely what Butov's memory figures do not plan. But they demand money and repentance, poking everyone in their faces with a pile of paper with a list of last names. Which, by the way (list) could, if necessary, be obtained from the passport office. There, yes, name, date of birth, place of birth, date of death. Without details.

Maybe? Full

What are the conclusions here?

And not very happy. Somehow, everything is wrong, dear, in our state. Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya feat did not commit. There were no Panfilov heroes (numbering several thousand). And in general with the heroes we are rather weak, all the heroes were shot by the decree of Stalin and Beria by the chief executioners of the NKVD. And therefore we need to repent as much as possible and don’t know what else to do, because otherwise we don’t draw upon civilized people.

If this were an isolated case, it would be easier. But the farther we go into the future, the more willing to correct the past, is not it? Why are we today simply obliged (and, thank the Russian consciousness, this responsibility and responsibility) to prove the heroism of thousands of our most worthy citizens from the 17-year-old boy from Irkutsk, who died in his first battle under Borodino to the marshals? And why are we so strongly obliged to indiscriminately believe and worship a bundle of paper with names and surnames unknown to be written by anyone?

Not so it should be. Not at all.

Unjustly blamed and executed by our fellow citizens, we, normal people, will bow down, wish, and provide the land with down and eternal memory. If these people really were. It is worthy of every Russian person.

And with joy and sadness at the same time. I myself observed this year when I was present at the burial of a hundred and fifty unknown Soviet soldiers killed in the Hungarian prisoner of war camp. More joy, from the fact that these fighters were found and reburied as it should be. With a prayer and a triple volley.

But to arrange a memorial on the bones, if they are there, and even based on the elementary desire to earn extra money on this, as Mr. Garkavy tries to do, forgive it, somehow not in Russian.

Well, they do not want us to go there with this repentance.

Afterword. Unfortunately, the volume turned out to be somewhat more than expected. Because the second part, devoted to the same topic, but with other actors, I will do a little later. It is worth it, I think.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

174 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +6
    23 December 2016 05: 46
    Meanwhile, it is official sources, including even on the website dedicated to Butov, that 1935 people were sentenced to the entire penalty from 1953 to 27.
    Glory to comrade Stalin for our happy childhood.

    The author was confused by the figure? In Kiev, the future General Sec of the Central Committee of the CP SS managed to shoot 40 "enemies of the people". The glory of the NKVD is the valor, honor and conscience of Bolshevism.
    1. +44
      23 December 2016 05: 52
      I will not oppose the comrade Alexander Romanov with his rather provocative phrase about a happy childhood and the hint that Stalin personally shot a billion people, I will only write about repentance - you just have to say A, they will make B say ..., but that’s what we have already been through - as soon as the Union began to repent in its history, and the secretary general just mentioned by Alexander laid the foundation, the country rolled to its inexorable end ... Collapse! Now, exactly the same scenario is offered to us by all these Memorials and their curators from the State Department standing behind them!
      1. +11
        23 December 2016 06: 05
        Quote: Finches
        I will write only about repentance -

        Do you know what repentance is? This is not the State Department or our president speaking with words of repentance. He is a simple person who remembers the story, who understands what is good and what is bad in the history of his country. The communists do not understand this and will never understand it. Because they are waving a red flag, they shout about victory in a warrior .. But they are silent in a rag when it comes to repression.
        1. +25
          23 December 2016 06: 35
          The figures of the period of repression are actively manipulated by those who are eager to reshape history, to expose the country's past only in black, to bring the entire people to their knees for "repentance." A. Romanov walked over the communists with a tractor, or maybe it is worth walking over another small part of the population, which actively manipulates figures, doubts heroism during the Second World War, to whom on May 9 like a sickle in one place. It doesn't seem to you that people with certain surnames are shouting loudest about this. Here is an example from the article
          member of the Public Council of the Russian Jewish Congress ...
          1. +6
            23 December 2016 07: 42
            Quote: rotmistr60
            The figures of the period of repression are actively manipulated by those

            But not the numbers matter! Or do you think 20 killed is bad, but 000 is good? I do not care who is there and what is being manipulated for their own selfish purposes. The executions of the so-called enemies of the people is a crime against their people. And I do not care what beautiful slogans it was covered.
            Quote: rotmistr60
            , and maybe it’s worth going through another small part of the population, which actively manipulates numbers, doubts heroism during the Second World War, who on May 9 as a sickle in one place.

            The victory was won by the people of the USSR, at the cost of huge sacrifices, and therefore it is sacred! Victory over those who came to destroy us is Victory! And those who destroyed their own people, who are they?
            1. +2
              25 December 2016 05: 07
              Under the control of these "they who" our people only won!
            2. +1
              26 December 2016 10: 36
              and why "so-called"? there were both justly convicted and executed ..
        2. +31
          23 December 2016 06: 37
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Do you know what repentance is? This is not the State Department or our president speaking with words of repentance.This is a simple person who remembers the story, who understands what is good and what is bad in the history of his country.The communists do not understand this and will never catch it. Because they are waving a red flag, they shout about victory in a warrior .. But they are silent in a rag when it comes to repression.

          But the "reformers" are crawling right on their knees for the 90s ...



          So worried, poor, that they can’t eat. Especially some.




          And so yes a simple person who remembers history, he understands what is good and what is bad in the history of his country. And it will be good when something bad is finally hanged. And not even necessarily around the neck. As for me, the legs will be much fairer.
          1. +1
            23 December 2016 09: 34
            Quote: Mik13
            And it will be good when something bad is finally hanged. And not even necessarily around the neck. As for me, the legs will be much fairer.

            ... Legs, neck ... absolutely insignificant, insignificant nuance!
            It’s easier and cheaper to shoot ...
        3. +15
          23 December 2016 07: 13
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          The communists do not understand this and will never catch it. Because they are waving a red flag, they shout about victory in a warrior .. But they are silent in a rag when it comes to repression.

          Very black and white point of view. And like all black and white, it’s not viable. There is no black and white in nature, everything is colorful.
          And the communists too. Do you see any differences between Trotsky, Stalin and Gorbachev? All communists. And democrats are also different. There is a democrat Putin, and there is a democrat Yeltsin. Both are democrats.
          Leave these repressions alone. It was and was. We must live on.
          1. +5
            23 December 2016 07: 45
            Quote: Alex_59
            Leave these repressions alone. It was and was.

            Really forget it? And what do you remember Chubais, let's forget everything and all those who spread rot their own people.
            That Trotsky, that Stalin and Gobachev are members of the same party.
            1. +10
              23 December 2016 08: 47
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              Really forget it? And what do you remember Chubais, let's forget everything and all those who spread rot their own people.
              Who are you? I’m not lying even once, if I say that I haven’t mentioned Chubais for a couple of years of being on topvar.
              Chubais is our present and so far the future. It affects my life today. But the Stalinist repressions-no longer. They should not be hushed up. To understand that there is nothing good in repression is also necessary. But also constantly sprinkle ash on his head and pour from empty to empty, too. We are not worried about the repressions of Ivan the Terrible or Peter the Great?
              But if it is necessary to discuss this topic - it is possible without excesses and generalizations in the style of "the communists will never understand." My grandfather was a communist, and he understood better than you and me, he was also taken away once. But they let go. Did not find corpus delicti stated in the denunciation.
              1. +5
                23 December 2016 09: 41
                Quote: Alex_59
                Chubais is our present and so far the future. It affects my life today. But the Stalinist repressions-no longer. They should not be hushed up. To understand that there is nothing good in repression is also necessary. But also constantly sprinkle ash on his head and pour from empty to empty, too. We are not worried about the repressions of Ivan the Terrible or Peter the Great?
                But if it is necessary to discuss this topic - it is possible without excesses and generalizations in the style of "the communists will never understand." My grandfather was a communist, and he understood better than you and me, he was also taken away once. But they let go. Did not find corpus delicti stated in the denunciation.

                If you do not remember the past - even this! - then the "Chubais" will remain our future ... If nothing is done - "... the future will shoot us from a cannon!"
            2. +5
              23 December 2016 09: 28
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              That Trotsky, that Stalin and Gobachev are members of the same party.
              However, Zhukov, Vasilevsky, other generals are also communists. They, it turns out, who? The oppressors of their people? Assistants of the tyrant? Primakov too? You can deny the ideas of communism, but you can’t deny that different people understand it differently and are guided by different values, using just one word. And about whoever crap where, you need to know, but personally and with evidence, and not blame all the Chokh or hang on a single camarilla crime.
              1. +1
                23 December 2016 11: 56
                Quote: Stanislav
                However, Zhukov, Vasilevsky, other generals are also communists. They, it turns out, who? The oppressors of their people?

                But you do not confuse the military with politicians.
                1. +1
                  25 December 2016 05: 12
                  What kind of nonsense, do not interfere with the military communists and politicians, but the communist of the true patriot, and the communist greedy grabber in one heap yes ..? Funny Alexander, funny!
                2. +1
                  2 January 2017 16: 29
                  Your excuses are strained. Here it is necessary to remember, here it is not necessary to remember.

                  Here we bring down all the former members of the CPSU in one heap, both traitors and devotees, and here the members of the CPSU (b) must be strictly distinguished by occupation.

                  Here we wave the inflated figures of "as-if-information" of any "memorials", and when you are caught in numerous and repeated manipulations, you start screaming that the numbers do not matter, every ruined life is a tragedy!

                  What else can you think of? It's funny to look at your twists. lol
            3. +2
              23 December 2016 10: 34
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              And what do you remember Chubais, let's forget everything and all those who spread rot their own people.

              Then that Chubais is alive and his work lives with him. That he will die (maybe they will repress, all the same there must be truth on Earth) - we will immediately forget.
            4. +1
              25 December 2016 05: 09
              When Chubais departs to another world, then we will forget! Alexander, your arguments are weak and not solid, in this post you will definitely lose!
              1. +1
                2 January 2017 16: 31
                Yes, he’s always like that, this little-romances lol

                It doesn’t matter to him that he is lying. For himself, he is always and in everything absolutely right laughing
          2. 0
            23 December 2016 09: 35
            Quote: Alex_59
            Leave these repressions alone. It was and was. We must live on.

            ... and still will be!
            If we want to live, then ...
        4. +7
          23 December 2016 07: 14
          I am not saying that repressions or any other moments of our history should be hushed up, I am saying that there is no need to repent of history, you need to draw conclusions and learn from your ancestors! In matters of repression, we have two extremes: Stalin personally shot a billion and another, only real enemies of the people were turned into camp dust ... However, he literally re-read Shalamov, "Kolyma Tales", then on one person who was imprisoned for unscrewing railway nuts on the sinker accounted for one SR-bomber ... Shalamov, and in reality he chopped off in Kolyma, unlike Solzhenitsyn, whom he could not stand, and considered a snitch, knew what he was writing ... So, Alexander, we really need it, not twists, then one way, then the other. Here, for example, you regularly throw mud at the communists, also distorting history, not agreeing to understand that there is a lot of positive for the common person in this idea, in contrast to the same democracy!
          1. +4
            23 December 2016 07: 48
            Quote: Finches
            : Stalin personally shot a billion

            A thief in law does not commit crimes personally - is he not guilty? Stalin led the country and gave orders.
            Poroshenko personally in the Donbass does not kill anyone. Should I continue?
            Quote: Finches
            You regularly pour mud on the Communists, distorting history as well, not agreeing to understand that there is a lot of positive for an ordinary person in this idea in

            Probably because it collapsed, probably because no one came out to defend this system.
            1. +7
              23 December 2016 08: 02
              You see, but for some reason Nicholas II, in your opinion, is a saint! laughing Somehow it is not very objectively obtained ...
              1. +1
                23 December 2016 08: 50
                Quote: Finches
                You see, and for some reason Nicholas II, in your opinion, is a saint

                Something I don’t remember. That Nikolai would commit crimes against his people.
                1. +12
                  23 December 2016 09: 09
                  laughing May 7, 1901 - Execution of workers at the Obukhov plant
                  November 1902 - The execution of workers in Rostov. Killed - 6 wounded - 20;

                  March 11, 1903 - The shooting of workers at the Zlatoust weapons factory. Killed - 60, injured - 200;

                  July 14, 1903 - The shooting of striking railway workers. 10 killed and 18 wounded;

                  July 23, 1903 - The shooting of a demonstration of workers in Kiev. Killed - 4, wounded - 27

                  August 7, 1903 - The execution of workers in Yekaterinburg. Killed - 16, wounded - 48;

                  December 13, 1904 - The execution of workers in Baku. Killed - 5, wounded - 40; this is only a drop in the attacks of Nikolashka Holstein-Gottorp
                  1. +1
                    23 December 2016 23: 07
                    The shooting of workers in Novocherkassk ...
                    1. +2
                      26 December 2016 14: 36
                      kalibr he is Slavik Shpakovsky and what do we propose to Kononize Khrushchev? belay
                2. +5
                  23 December 2016 09: 19
                  Russia's entry into WWI
                3. c3r
                  +7
                  23 December 2016 10: 17
                  Khodynka crush on the day of ascension to the throne, Bloody Sunday, the shooting of workers on the Lena River, the country's mediocre leadership during the war brought the country to revolution. Continue on about Nicholas 2. And now compared to Stalin. Industrialization, victory in the war, economic recovery after the war (by the way, the only price reduction was under Stalin). And of my relatives they didn’t repress or put anyone out, although the families were not small, they were from 6 to 11 people. It’s enough to extol the rulers who, except to die with the whole family , did not do anything good for the people and the country!
                4. +10
                  23 December 2016 12: 23
                  Alexander, I didn't even have time to purr, the comrades told you everything - and these are not the notions of "damned commies"! laughing hi
                  1. +2
                    25 December 2016 05: 16
                    Alexander does not like to answer, questions that are not convenient for him ..)))
                5. +1
                  2 January 2017 16: 34
                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  Something I don’t remember. That Nikolai would commit crimes against his people.

                  You heal your memory!
                  No need to start the disease, then it is much harder to cure them crying

                  To the crimes listed for you by other interlocutors in abundance, I will add the shamefully lost RJV and especially to Tsushima, when it was the tsarist order that led to the senseless destruction of the squadron and the deaths of many thousands of Russian people.
            2. +4
              23 December 2016 09: 42
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              A thief in law does not commit crimes personally - is he not guilty?
              No. The court can convict him only of those crimes that he directed, organized, etc. And this is fair. Is there evidence of Stalin's organization of specific crimes?
            3. +1
              25 December 2016 05: 15
              The army wins the war under the leadership of the commander in chief, if the commander is stupid, his people died! And that commander, not only won the war, but also restored the country at an accelerated pace! In general, you write nonsense!
          2. MrK
            +6
            23 December 2016 13: 23
            Quote: Finches
            Alexander, the truth is needed, and not twisted, then one way, then the other


            Thank you colleague Zyablitsov, I completely agree with you. Let me add.
            I read all the comments and was struck by the fact that almost all colleagues argue only with Sasha Romanov. His conviction that Stalin was bloody no longer annoys me, as before, but causes laughter. I conclude that most colleagues are fed up with the hell casting slops on Stalin.
            So let me briefly point by point.
            1. About repression. The numbers of repressions themselves only indicate how much was repressed. Repression was and is in all countries, including in the current Russian Federation. He stole five boards from a neighbor. Found, caught, given a term. Repression however. Robbed a man. Found, caught, given a term. Repression however. Therefore, repression is not scary in itself. The unreasonable repressions in falsified cases against innocent people are terrible.
            And how many innocent people were repressed? Unknown After all, the archives are still closed. Why? If the "bloody" Stalin destroyed innocents in batches, then open the archives. This will be the most convincing proof of the bloody Communists. But the current anti-Soviet government does not open archives. She can even see something to hide.
            2. NKVD suffered the greatest losses, after coming to the post of People's Commissar of the NKVD Beria. According to the book of Alexander Kurlandchik: Since 1939, more than 63 000 employees have been brought to trial for unjustified repressions. And 8 000 was shot. And all of them are also on the lists of innocent victims, according to Sasha.
            3. Stalin did not unleash repression. They were forced upon him. Bloody people like Eihe and K0. From the same book.
            Not Stalin, but Robert Indrikovich Eikhe proposed the creation of extrajudicial killings, the famous "troika", like the Stolypin, consisting of the first secretary, local prosecutor and the head of the NKVD (city, region, territory, republic). Stalin was against it. But the Politburo voted. Well, the fact that a year later it was such a trio that leaned against Comrade Eikhe’s wall, in my deep conviction, is nothing but sad justice. And all this was connected with the adoption of the Stalin Constitution in the 1936 year. But today every jackal can kick a dead lion. No one to give change.
            4. There were still “triples” in purely criminal cases! Which, without trial, according to operational materials, examined about half of all criminal cases. Rowing repeat offenders and “persons associated with the criminal environment” (buyers of stolen goods, holders of dens and the like). And, you know, this system dealt a hefty blow to organized crime and brought order to the cities. According to adequate historians, up to 65% of the repressed in 37-38 years were ordinary criminals.
            5. Regarding repentance. Confucius said: "Beware of those who want to impose guilt on you. For they crave power over you».
            6. Last thing. Dear Sasha Romanov. Indeed, even today, the overwhelming majority of today's critics of the construction of the USSR look at Stalin, figuratively, say, the father of a large family, with the EYES of IMPOTENTS, who understand that they will not only never have children, but also don’t know how to make them. And this is all your trouble. Complexes, however, or women do not give.
        5. +7
          23 December 2016 08: 41
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Do you know what repentance is?

          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Really forget it? And what do you remember Chubais, let's forget everything and all those who spread rot their own people.
          That Trotsky, that Stalin and Gobachev are members of the same party.

          But, you all repent, repent, repent .... wink Already, they broke their forehead. Something crooked repentance. "I remember here, I don't remember here"
          .A, Chubais is already a symbol, and at the same time it is active and unsinkable. Tell me why? And having said "A", say also "B". Do you want to continue the list of members of one party among the current "ruling"? And who is "spreading rot" now? Or "... something with my memory has become."?
          "Expertise is needed first. But just for some reason this is precisely what Butovo leaders do not plan from memory. But they demand money and repentance, poking everyone in the face of a pile of paper with a list of names. "
          Do you disagree with this?
        6. +7
          23 December 2016 09: 46
          Dear Roman, No offense, we're tired of our self-flagellation about "repressions".The communists do not understand this and will never catch it. Because they are waving a red flag, they shout about victory in a warrior.
          Why are you better than the “communists” (your spelling)? Yes, MY grandfather and grandmother (on my mother’s side) told how the whole family excuse me to squeeze under fruit trees so that they would not bear fruit (famine in the early 30s). locals went and COUNTED the number of fruits on the trees!
          And let's look at modern media stories about the 30s in the United States. When the unemployed were forced to solder for soldering roads, because the states don’t cry about it!
          And secondly, I already wrote about this. After the capture of Kharkov, my grandfather was under the Germans as an OLD in one of the villages. But interestingly, the WWII graduated with the rank of lieutenant colonel. And in 46 he was arrested as an accomplice to the invaders and after half a year he was released. To be considered repressed? Grandfather NEVER considered himself like that. And therefore, with a clear conscience, "mandated" Banderovtsy "from 47 to 53.
          PS, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN SHOOTING OUR CRAFTS IN KATYN. And I am against this monument (someone wrote correctly; We go there because of conscience - there is a toilet.
          Only WE are accustomed to "sprinkle ashes on our heads." The murder of six million Jews - World Sorrow (HOLOCAUST). The extermination of 28 (twenty million) citizens of the USSR (of which one and a half million Jews) IN FUNNY FIGURES THINK IT IS SHIT !!!!!!
        7. 0
          23 December 2016 09: 49
          Is "repression" a 100% "injection of lead" in the head ... In modern Europe there are people who are forbidden to vote - this is also repression. The prohibition to be elected and to be elected is also repression. And much more.

          One should not hide the scale of the phenomenon behind the word "repression". "Death sentence" is a very clear wording.

          In modern Russian legislation, political repression, according to the Law of Russia No. 1761-1 “On the rehabilitation of victims of political repression” of 18.10.1991/XNUMX/XNUMX, recognizes various coercive measures applied by the state for political reasons, in the form of deprivation of life or freedom, placement in a psychiatric hospital for compulsory treatment medical institutions, expulsion from the country and deprivation of citizenship, eviction of population groups from their places of residence, referral, deportation and special settlement, involvement in forced labor in conditions x restrictions on freedom, as well as other deprivation or restriction of the rights and freedoms of persons recognized as socially dangerous for the state or the political system according to class, social, national, religious or other grounds, carried out by decision of the courts and other bodies vested with judicial functions, or in administrative by executive authorities and officials and public organizations or their bodies vested with administrative powers
          1. 0
            24 December 2016 10: 02
            Quote: IrbenWolf
            The ban ... to be elected is also repression.
            For some smile
          2. +1
            2 January 2017 16: 47
            Quote: IrbenWolf
            One should not hide the scale of the phenomenon behind the word "repression". "Death sentence" is a very clear wording.

            That is what the falsifiers are afraid of.

            There is a flexible word - repression, into which ALL convicts are driven, including those convicted deservedly, lawfully and fairly, as well as resettled, fired, who received penalties ...

            And then the concepts are somehow secretly substituted, and these exaggerated figures of "repression" are transformed with one wave of a magic wand into "innocently shot". Voila! laughing

            The same thing with losses, which are different: sanitary and irrevocable, first of all, and inside them are also significantly different categories: wounded, prisoners, interned ..

            There are military losses, but there are demographic losses. Prisoners of war, disabled people - militarily irreparable losses, in the demographic - not losses at all.

            And then comes balancing act with numbers: one side only counts officially recorded (!) Killed in battle (!), The other - ALL losses, combat and non-combat, sanitary and irrecoverable - which then, with the same wave of a magic wand, turn into "well, of course, that killed ", thus the number of those killed is overestimated at times.

            And with the loss of equipment a similar picture: all the damages that led to the withdrawal of the equipment from the battle can be considered, but only irretrievably destroyed, which, for example, were very few in the Wehrmacht, can be considered: while the tank keeps a plate with a number that can be transferred to another tank it is not considered destroyed lol
        8. +7
          23 December 2016 10: 44
          Mr. Romanov, were there any repressions? Knowing your position as an avid monarchist, it is certainly not for you to talk about it. Well, you don’t scold our last tsar, who not only had the power of pros..l and two wars, safely suh..l all that his father Alexander III did, was also frightened of his own people when he went to him with a request Peter about the very poor working conditions of workers. And how much did it die during the starvation of the people because the policy of the then dumb-headed government (as in principle even now) exported grain abroad without producing the required 500 kg per capita? Or how many people died from illnesses, because there were no doctors for ordinary people? See E.A. Sanitary Statistics Osipov, P.I. Kurkin for 1913 year. Or reports in the Statistical Yearbooks of Russia, edited by the Director of the Central Statistical Committee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs N.N. Belyavsky. Read do not be lazy. And these figures are many times larger than those voiced by your beloved Zemskov (although even he confirmed the figure in a memo to Khrushchev). And finally, any state and state system will fight against those who are against the witch hunt and the McCarthyism movement in the USA, that the USSR has anti-revolutionary activity. There are no exceptions. But it is pointless to argue about the achievements of RI and the USSR, since the result is obvious. Judged by cases, not political preferences.
        9. +3
          23 December 2016 13: 14
          You need to repent of the monarchists who brought the country to the revolution, and the "Russian-speaking" democrats, also like you, who rushed to the big cities after the revolution, and from whom Comrade Stalin later cleansed the country - with the hands of their fellow tribesmen
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Quote: Finches
          I will write only about repentance -

          Do you know what repentance is? This is not the State Department or our president speaking with words of repentance. He is a simple person who remembers the story, who understands what is good and what is bad in the history of his country. The communists do not understand this and will never understand it. Because they are waving a red flag, they shout about victory in a warrior .. But they are silent in a rag when it comes to repression.
        10. 0
          25 December 2016 05: 04
          Tin, all my life I thought and saw only one thing, the Communists shouted and shout about victory in the bright future, and movement towards this victory! In the slogans of the Communists, not a word about the war!
      2. +14
        23 December 2016 07: 31
        The memory of the people should preserve everything that has been done and is being done on the territory of Russia: everything is good and everything is bad. But with the memory of the people was given not so that the people repented, constantly repented, but that the people did not repeat the mistakes of the past. They repent in church for confession, repent before the icons, offering praise to our Lord. Repenting sinners can find peace in the monastery, or in the righteous activities of the church, the state, to correct the mistakes of the past. But repentance is not brought by decision of the liberals. The people of Russia have nothing to repent !! The people of Russia built their country, defended the fatherland, developed science, art. Therefore, the calls of the liberals to repentance is another, in truth, Jesuit way of destroying our people, our country.
        Behind the calls of the liberals to repentance are hiding all the same diabolical ears of Western intelligence centers and polytechnologists who already contributed to the collapse of the Union and the collapse of Russia in the 90s. But they did not finish their diabolical work to the end: Russia rose from the ashes, devastated and began to move forward, causing western unread to be infuriated. Trying to repeat their success in the collapse of the Union, the devil's servants warm up national traitors and liberals who, using the freedom that exists in Russia, are trying to impose on us the idea of ​​universal repentance. As soon as we begin to repent, as soon as we begin to doubt our past, as soon as instead of taking a scientific look at our history, we begin to renounce the deeds of our ancestors, everything will end for us exactly as the devilish servants plan: Russia will begin to move towards decay. This is well understood in the West at operations planning centers against Russia.
        Our task is the fight against liberal repentance. We cannot let the liberals infect Russia with the idea of ​​repentance, let them destroy Russia.
        For evil, for the abomination that they brought to Russia, liberalists must repent !!!
        1. +3
          23 December 2016 10: 00
          Quote: The Truth
          The people of Russia have nothing to repent !!
          Repentance is possible only for man. This is a very deep, intimate process. Temporary social associations, organizations, countries and peoples in general cannot repent, love, hate, etc., although some people who are inclined to hasty generalizations cannot understand how this xoxol may not love fat, a Jew cannot be cunning, Russian - without half a liter and balalaika, etc. You can repent for something in which he himself participated, at least through a certain attitude. Why repent to people who are tired of a mess in the country, but do not see for themselves any other way than the hope of a strong hand of power, which Stalin represents for them? To repent that did not arrange the Maidan?
        2. 0
          23 December 2016 19: 12
          Not only this. First, the requirement of repentance, then the requirement of monetary compilation, while no one is going to pay anyone for the Russian genocide of 1917-1922
      3. +4
        23 December 2016 09: 04
        Zyablitsev well, Mr. Alexander Romanov is strong in the without reasoned "verbal diarrhea" !!! lol
      4. +3
        23 December 2016 10: 44
        Quote: Finches
        as soon as the Union began to repent for its history .... the country rolled to its inexorable end ... collapse!

        You know in everything you need to do without fanaticism. In the history of any country there are pages that cause pride and those that do not like to remember. The issue of repressions is still relevant for us, since their witnesses and those who suffered from their consequences are still alive, I mean the children and other relatives of the repressed.
        Of course, we must admit that then, the "fierce struggle" was carried out by very cruel measures, excessive, but now kneel down and groan that the whole world forgive me, why is this a BUMP? Yes, this is our history and we can no longer change something in it, but we can not repeat those mistakes.
    2. +14
      23 December 2016 06: 31
      The soldiers and commanders of the NKVD troops accomplished a real feat during the war; this must be recognized once and for all. In the most difficult, crucial days, they stood up as the last barrier on the enemy’s path, killing almost every single one. (In the first months of the war, there were 5–7 killed enemies per one killed NKVD warrior.)

      Thousands and thousands of soldiers and officers of the NKVD fought with the Nazis in the Second World War ...
      The border troops included in the NKVD June 22, 1941 took the first and last battle in the west of the USSR ... almost all of them died in battles with the Nazis ...

      how can they be equated with Bolshevism ...
      I am sure that when they were dying in battle, they thought above all about their HOMELAND about their relatives and friends whom they defended.

      I must say that in the face of death, all the husks come off a person and then it is clearly visible who is worth what.
      For the most part, the soldiers of the NKVD troops honestly served their country and cannot be blamed for this.
      1. 0
        23 December 2016 07: 51
        Quote: The same LYOKHA
        The border troops included in the NKVD June 22, 1941 took the first and last battle in the west of the USSR ... almost all of them died in battles with the Nazis ...
        how can they be equated with Bolshevism ...

        Lech do not confuse the system and its leaders with ordinary soldiers. Grozny, 95 years old, and the ruling noble in the Kremlin.
        Quote: The same LYOKHA
        For the most part, the soldiers of the NKVD troops honestly served their country; they cannot be blamed for this.

        And there were no squads wink
        1. +9
          23 December 2016 09: 14
          Alexander Romanov as a dreamer you should have read about "detachments" belay "Testimonies of veterans," which no one had seen, began to be passed from mouth to mouth. Like: "My father's cousin, a neighbor's godfather, knows veterans who were driven into battle by NKVDs with machine guns." From these conversations, supposedly "fair indignation" began to emerge about "how can we consider both those who fought and those who shot them in the back to be veterans." The spread of this myth was facilitated by the fact that the official authorities were in no hurry to comment on it - we will dwell on the reasons for this behavior below. By the end of the Soviet era, veterans began to retire en masse, and, accordingly, to communicate less in collectives, and after the collapse of the USSR and to this day, to our great regret, they generally became much less. And spreading lies just got easier.

          The myth of the "detachments" was actively used to denigrate the memory of the Great Patriotic War during the collapse of the Soviet Union and to justify the "necessity" of liberal reforms in Russia, Ukraine and other post-Soviet countries. He played especially effectively in Ukraine during the events of 2004-2014. Foaming at the mouth, the nationalists argued that there were practically no "real" veterans left, and those who did exist were supposedly mythical "NKVEDists with machine guns." Even on the 70th anniversary of the Victory, this topic has surfaced in almost every third liberal blog. The authors would like to figure it out. But they don't want to. Therefore, today the truth is important and needed more than ever. And in order to preserve the self-respect and historical memory of the entire people, and in order to pay tribute to the veterans - both those who are nearby and those who, unfortunately, no longer exist. After all, this myth is a spit into the soul of all who fought. It turns out that do not drive them with machine-gun fire in the back, and there would be no Great Victory? Wouldn't you fight? Would everyone pass? Isn't that mean to them?
          View in full: http://politrussia.com/istoriya/chernyy-mif-o-463
          /
        2. c3r
          +1
          23 December 2016 10: 48
          Extract from order 227 "Not a step back"
          b) to form within the army 3-5 well-armed guard units (200 each), place them in the direct rear of unstable divisions and oblige them to shoot panicists and cowards in the event of panic and erratic withdrawal of divisions, and thereby help honest fighters divisions to fulfill their duty to the homeland; For reference, the army is about 20 thousand people. What do you think 1000 machine gunners will keep 20 thousand long?
          1. MrK
            +3
            23 December 2016 11: 54
            Quote: c3r
            For reference, the army is about 20 thousand people.

            I agree. But there is a little typo I think. The army has 4-5 divisions. each division is 15-20 thousand people.
            1. +1
              23 December 2016 12: 45
              The army has 4-5 divisions. each division is 15-20 thousand people.

              too much bent. drinks In the pre-war states, the division was to be 14 people. In wartime, good numbers the new the division, I think, was no more than 12, something like that, and after the fighting - 000-8000, probably.
            2. +1
              2 January 2017 16: 53
              The composition of the army is VERY stretchable (due to the inclusion of a different number of large units + individual units) and squeezed (due to losses and undersets).

              Near Stalingrad, the 6th army of Paulus, together with the 4th Panzer Army of Gotha, consisted of 22 divisions and about 300 thousand people.
        3. 0
          24 December 2016 21: 56
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          And there were no squads

          Council of People's Commissars (Council of People's Commissars, SNK) 1918 g .:
          Lenin - Chairman
          Chicherin - foreign affairs, Russian;
          Lunacharsky - enlightenment, Jew;
          Dzhugashvili (Stalin) - nationalities, Georgians;
          Protian - agriculture, Armenian;
          Larin (Lurie) - Economic Council, Jew;
          Schlichter - supply, Jew;
          Trotsky (Bronstein) - army and navy, Jew;
          Lander - state control, Jew;
          Kaufman - state property, Jew;
          V. Schmidt - work, Jew;
          Lilina (Knigissen) - public health, Jewish woman;
          Svalbard - cults, Jew;
          Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - internal affairs, Jew;
          Anvelt - hygiene, Jew;
          Isidor Gukovsky - finance, Jew;
          Volodarsky - seal, Jew; Uritsky — elections, Jew;
          I. Steinberg - justice, Jew;
          Fengstein - refugees, Jew.

          In total, of the 20-ty of people's commissars - one Russian, one Georgian, one Armenian and 17 Jews.

          Gentlemen, Jews, if you urge the Russians to repent, then only after you. We are in this line for repentance - at the very end of the list.
        4. 0
          25 December 2016 05: 19
          Enough to choose questions, above you didn’t answer a lot of questions, it puts you in a rank not very high! I can answer there, I’ll start screaming, but I can’t ... I’ll pretend that it’s offline ...))), well shame, shame!
    3. c3r
      +9
      23 December 2016 10: 05
      Correctly the author writes that the corpses must be exhumed, examined, concluded and buried according to the rules. And after that you can put up memorials and thank you for your childhood. Stop chatting dear people and sprinkle ashes on your head! Khrushch and Solzhenitsyn, as well as unknown chauffeurs and commandants! Raise archives, conduct excavations! Do not want to, you are afraid that everything will not turn out to be the way you want, gentlemen lackeys and your masters, money may not be given to you. True, you do not need it, it is better to shame millions and billions of "innocent murdered".
    4. +8
      23 December 2016 10: 36
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      that for the WHOLE period from 1935 to 1953, 27 people were sentenced to capital punishment in Moscow and the Moscow Region.

      And no one wondered, but this number can be distributed according to guilt? That is all
      were murderers, traitors and other criminals who committed grave crimes were shot on the "fifty-eighth"?
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. +6
      23 December 2016 10: 42
      like you and fables about "repression" and various books come up with! Immortal Gulag - a lie for the sake of PR
      pikabu.ru ›... bessmertnyiy_gulag__lozh_radi_piara ...
      came with a photo of the "repressed" On the Internet, part of the requests for the name of the "repressed" brought us to the Memorial website. Whether it is worth believing the data of this resource, in the light of its controversial financial and legal history, is up to you. I would not recommend it. For a couple of names in open sources, nothing was found. The request to the archives also gave nothing. Perhaps the "immortal Gulag" simply invented them for the volume of the repressed. But for three names, Wikipedia gave an extremely curious answer.
      Ivanchenko Nikolay Nikolaevich According to activists, he is a scientist engineer and professor, who was shot on October 2, 1937.
      According to Wikipedia, it is also a scientist, engineer and professor, but there is no data on his death. True, in 1939 he graduated from the LII GVF. During the siege of Leningrad, he was engaged in the design and installation of diesel-electric installations at enterprises. He became a professor in 1966. And until 1986, he worked at the Central Research Diesel Institute.
      How Comrade Ivanchenko came out after repressions and execution to make such a dizzying career is worth asking the activists of the Immortal Gulag. Although here they will probably answer that the full name “Ivanchenko Nikolay Nikolaevich” was quite common in Soviet Russia and their repressed “scientist, engineer and professor Ivanchenko”, “scientist, engineer and professor Ivanchenko” from the free encyclopedia are simply namesake. And indeed, professors by the name of Ivanchenko in the country of councils was "a dime a dozen." laughing
      1. +6
        23 December 2016 10: 43
        the next "reprised" According to the activists - a diplomat who was shot on April 19, 1950.
        According to Wikipedia, a military traitor who has crossed over to the side of the Nazis. In 1950, the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the USSR sentenced the former Major General Budykho to capital punishment. On April 19, 1950, the sentence was carried out.
        Here, not only the initials coincide. Yes, and Budykho surname, you see, is quite rare.
      2. +5
        23 December 2016 10: 47
        Well, in conclusion: Labutin Alexander Alekseevich According to activists, he is a weapons designer who was shot on April 30, 1935.
        And Wikipedia is silent here.
        The truth is that in the register of the “Immortal Regiment” there is an absolute namesake for the “repressed”. Only he heroically died in battle with the Nazi occupiers in 1944, and was awarded the Order of the Red Star posthumously. Although this slightly falls outside the concept of the “Immortal Gulag”, in which the Soviet government did not reward people but destroy them. Alexander Alekseevich Labut, shot in 1935, is more suitable for picketers. Apparently the letter “K” was not printed on the poster, since Alexander Alekseevich Labutkin really had to do with weapons production - he was a gunner. They only “repressed” him not according to the notorious 58th “political”. Shot Citizen Labutkin was for a completely different reason. Labutkin Alexander Alekseevich, nicknamed "one-armed bandit", a serial killer who killed 15 people.
        In light of the aforementioned, I would like to refer again to the statement of the participants of the “spring”
        “On October 30 at 19-00 we will go out in different cities. On the posters we will name the names of these people. So we remind our fellow citizens that the repression did not include mythical “pests” and “English spies”, but ordinary people. People like those who now live throughout Russia. ”
        Yes, not only spies and saboteurs fell under criminal prosecution.
        Traitors of the homeland fell. Aide to the Nazis. Serial killers. “Are they the same people who live in Russia now?” We dare to disagree.
    7. +4
      23 December 2016 13: 02
      Mr. Romanov, Stalin was not the general secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU, but 40 thousand. enemies of the people is your idol Khrushchev found. Lists by category for execution and deportation were submitted from the outskirts to the center, and not vice versa. But you Romanov, who joined the "universal values", the law is not written
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Meanwhile, it is official sources, including even on the website dedicated to Butov, that 1935 people were sentenced to the entire penalty from 1953 to 27.
      Glory to comrade Stalin for our happy childhood.

      The author was confused by the figure? In Kiev, the future General Sec of the Central Committee of the CP SS managed to shoot 40 "enemies of the people". The glory of the NKVD is the valor, honor and conscience of Bolshevism.
    8. 0
      25 December 2016 14: 28
      Shurik, and you are a provocateur.
  2. +1
    23 December 2016 05: 57
    In general, there are a lot of plans, so "you need more gold." To Mr. Garkavoy to perpetuate the memory of the innocent victims. Especially, probably, in terms of salaries.


    There will be sponsors, I have no doubt about that. It would be a good concrete case, but for this - the Soros would be right there.
  3. +9
    23 December 2016 06: 17
    Judging by today's * democrats * and their fearlessness in outright lies, only one conclusion can be drawn: it is time to introduce criminal liability, up to execution, not only for murders but also for outright lies and forgery of documents.
    1. +1
      23 December 2016 07: 36
      Some articles of Ivakin Alexey are interwoven with this article.
      Today, Learn something covered up (502 error), so some articles are not available.
      Here are some quotes from the articles.
      A post about falsification with debriefing was released a month ago. Someone does not believe that "no specific remains were found, that there was no and will not be an examination."

      Well, you know how I feel about the "innocent repressed".
      It is surprising that thieves, embezzlers, murderers and others are classified as innocent. Do you really think that in the thirties there were no thieves, embezzlers and murderers?
      Here are documents for me, for example, those who died during the war are given in the archives. But those arrested - exclusively to relatives. Because the son is not responsible for our father. And it is right. No one is guilty that his great-grandfather was a terrorist, for example. No guilt, but no pride.
      Anyone can commit a crime. A robe, uniform or cassock is no excuse.
      Therefore, when I went for a walk to the Butovo training ground, I went to the cemetery of criminals. Even if they are rehabilitated in 1956 or 1988 year - they are criminals for me.
    2. +2
      23 December 2016 08: 09
      Quote: Vasily50
      but also for outright lies and forgery of documents.

      And she is! In particular, the law on punishment for defamation. Do you think that someone is slandering someone? You can sue.
      1. +1
        23 December 2016 12: 48
        we are not accustomed to sue. The mentality is not the same. It would have been punished by the ruble ten times in the United States so that it would be disgraceful.
        1. +2
          23 December 2016 18: 35
          Quote: Mikado
          we are not accustomed to sue. The mentality is not the same. It would have been punished by the ruble ten times in the United States so that it would be disgraceful.

          Just like in the next article about sports! wink But, I totally agree. "Bad" Russian trait. wink
  4. +2
    23 December 2016 07: 33
    Nasty little article. No facts, only emotions (ill-concealed hatred). Another, such neat attempt to fool memory ...
    1. +4
      23 December 2016 13: 11
      Foul the memory of the "fifth column"?
      Quote: Sober
      Nasty little article. No facts, only emotions (ill-concealed hatred). Another, such neat attempt to fool memory ...
  5. +2
    23 December 2016 07: 42
    Quote: Well, they do not want to get us there with this repentance.
    Not there, you want to get us, Skomorokhov, not there.
  6. +1
    23 December 2016 07: 50
    It is unfortunate that the country's de-communization was not carried out in the 90s (similar to German denazification). All archives are not open. Not all scammers and sexots have been pulled by the ear into the light. So the author of the article got out from under some kind of wet and cold stone
  7. +3
    23 December 2016 08: 02
    "I'm not sure if the Germans were there in 1941, maybe not, but they could have come. The Podolsk line of fortifications took place in those places, and there could have been battles."

    There were no fights there. The line of defense was 60-70 km. southwest, along the Kaluga highway towards Obninsk. I come from those places, and I know that the advance detachments of the Germans approached in this direction only in the area of ​​the village of Kamenka.
    But the soldiers who died in hospitals from their wounds could theoretically be buried there. In 1941, the Butovo region was a dense forest. Even now the names have remained - "Lipki", Dubki ".
    If I am not mistaken, then Comrade Gulag was the first to write about the "Butovo training ground" in Arch.Gulag. Solzhenitsyn, then Rezun. Maybe it is worth thinking in this direction?
  8. +1
    23 December 2016 08: 06
    Quote: Finches
    for a simple person

    But not for easy? And who is more valuable than mother history? That is, it is clear that all people are people and everyone is the Universe. But ... 20% are leading, and 80% are leading! It always has been and will be.
  9. +3
    23 December 2016 08: 09
    That Trotsky, that Stalin and Gorbachev are members of the same party.
    Alexander Romanov
    And Empresses Maria Feodorovna and Alexandra Feodorovna are members of the same family. Why did they hate each other? And Peter the First ordered his own son to be executed? And Alexander I (Blessed) took part in a conspiracy against his father, which ended with the death of the latter from "an apoplectic blow to the head with a snuffbox." And if we go to the present times - in the United Russia party, some supporters of the GDP work ...
    1. 0
      23 December 2016 08: 52
      Quote: iury.vorgul
      And if you go to the present

      Then, what are you separating from Stalin. There were murders and crimes, but Stalin had nothing to do with your opinion. He didn’t know anything
      1. +2
        23 December 2016 11: 44
        Stalin knew about the repressions. SO WHAT????? If you think that politics can be done with white gloves - well ... And also, read on the internet about the colonel of the Airborne Forces Leonid Khabarov, who was repressed in ... 2013. And forward to the Maidan against the "bloody regime"!
        1. 0
          23 December 2016 12: 00
          Quote: iury.vorgul
          If you think that politics can be done with white gloves - well ...

          It is possible today in Russia no one is shot for different views.
  10. +2
    23 December 2016 08: 13
    The first, of course, is Mr. Garkavoy, director of the Butovo Memorial Scientific and Educational Center. For the more attention, the more money. To the honor of Garkavoy, he does not hide it.
    ... I'm not much out of topic ... But about Memory ... They bring me an order for approval ... for the purpose of patriotic education, to establish a holiday day ... such and such ... an employee ... of a certain service ... to organize a museum, help veterans ... and so on ... I go to the boss, I explain, we have no right to establish such holidays, not the state, this is its prerogative ... but for the sake of a holy cause, a museum, patriotic education, ready ... but on condition, if money is allocated, it will not go to celebrations ... but to what is indicated in the memo .. What are you, what are you ... I completely agree with you .. money is only for the museum, for help ... I agreed ... I will find out later ..allocated money 100 .. "Day and night walked the whole Peresyp" .. We spent on drink ... well, a little money for commemorative signs went ..
  11. +2
    23 December 2016 08: 13
    Quote: The Truth
    instead of a scientific look at our history

    And you want to say that he is present here now, right? Someone read Gumilyov, someone Rezun, someone Fomenko, someone is delighted with "Samsonism". And this is for the most part the matter and is limited, although the people gathered here are generally very decent. And those that are "overboard"? Who haven't even read this? What "scientific" view are you writing about? "And she feeds on fables ..." - that's more accurate.
  12. +6
    23 December 2016 08: 19
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    And there were no squads

    the detachments were only performing not the function that they showed in the "SHTRAFBAT" movie theater.
    1. +1
      23 December 2016 08: 54
      Quote: Vitalson
      the detachments were only performing not the function that they showed in the "SHTRAFBAT" movie theater.

      Well, of course, he cried out -Dawai Vanya supported the advance of the soldiers. Here and all communism, lie and squirm
      1. +1
        23 December 2016 08: 58
        No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Not only Vanya but Alexander too. bully
        1. +1
          23 December 2016 08: 59
          Quote: Vitalson
          Not only Vanya but Alexander too

          Is it funny to you, even in such a topic? Not for me
          1. +2
            23 December 2016 09: 00
            it was funny for me to watch the comedy film Shtrafbat
            1. +2
              23 December 2016 09: 11
              Quote: Vitalson
              it was funny for me to watch the comedy film Shtrafbat

              It is rather not a comedy, but a farce.
              1. +2
                23 December 2016 09: 14
                But Alexander Romanov liked it. The KGB gebnya is touring the color of the Russian nation.
      2. +1
        23 December 2016 08: 59
        communism with two M is being written.
        1. +1
          23 December 2016 09: 00
          Quote: Vitalson
          communism with two M is being written.

          I’m writing with one consciously!
  13. FID
    +5
    23 December 2016 08: 50
    Novel! You huge + !!!!
    1. +6
      23 December 2016 09: 07
      Quote: SSI

      1
      SSI 1 Today, 08:50
      Novel! You huge + !!!!

      I support! Somehow, all those who want communists forget that it was under the communists that they grew up, received a free education, rested in pioneer camps, attended free circles and much more was available to them. And all this has been unfolding since the Stalin era. Next - scolding I.V. Stalin for repression. And now you do not scold the stolen officials? Anyone who is now fattening due to the robbery of the people? So, in the time of I.V. Stalin honestly called them enemies of the people, and treated them accordingly. It’s not necessary to go far. Take Serdyukov and others like him .... how many were outraged here? And what would I.V. do with this company? Stalin? So what? would he be wrong? It’s always easy to mud the dead. They will not answer. But history will put everything in its place, no matter how they try to hide the real facts.
  14. +3
    23 December 2016 08: 59
    To whom to repent and to whom? We must leave these priestly terms. Objectively investigate and condemn. Let the memorialists, who earn money on repentance, repent.
  15. +3
    23 December 2016 09: 00
    58-8. Terrorist acts

    Innocent victim of American repression
  16. +8
    23 December 2016 09: 25
    An interesting topic, Roman, you raised. And most importantly topical.

    Unfortunately, the guys, even after reading the comments for the article, you understand that we were, and remained divided into "red" и "white". For some, the Communists are to blame, for others, the Democrats.
    And the story ... We have one. One for all. And what a story it is, "good" or "bad" - here we can’t do anything already. She is just ours.

    You just have to try not to "rewrite" story every time basically "for yourself", but treat this objectively. It is rather difficult for us to speak with certainty about the reliability of something, especially if it was not even 50, but 70 or 100 years ago.

    There was "red terror" twenties - yes, it was. Was he needed? And here I am personally I DO NOT KNOW. Did not live at that time, I don’t know the whole background of those events. In Soviet times, about "red terror" It was spoken of as a defensive reaction of the young Soviet state. After the collapse of the Union, they began to talk about it as a crime of power, because according to those who wrote in the 90s, the country's intellectual elite was destroyed. Where is the truth?

    Another period of history. 30s.
    There was "great terror"? It was.
    Were they shot? There were.
    Were they all "innocently convicted" or vice versa? And we do not know. We can only in our own KNOWLEDGE draw on the findings of researchers. And here sometimes we get up on a rather slippery road.
    Some researchers - they are really trying to find the truth in those events, for the second - this is a conjuncture. As Roman correctly wrote, they can turn 20 thousand repressed into 20 million if necessary. And there is sometimes nothing to do with "State Department". Although it is possible and "at what" and simply "feeds" such researchers.

    I apologize for saying possibly true truths, but history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood. She was what she was.
    There were also detachments, dear Alexander Romanov, there were. And there were penal battalions. But was it the way it is now "painted"?

    Unfortunately, now you sometimes understand that you had to talk with your grandfathers about those years. And with people of their age. To inquire. But we were young, thought that we would succeed, but alas, we did not have time at times.

    I had to talk about 10-15 years ago with a veteran who went his way from Kiev to Moscow and back to Poland. I asked him when he was about fifty dollars himself. Including about penal battalions, and about detachments. And you know, the opinion of the front-line soldier about these structures was different from what they are now broadcasting to us.

    In particular, about the detachments. There were. And they were necessary, since in his opinion there were situations when our units simply fled under the onslaught. And the tasks of the detachments were not to shoot all those fleeing on the spot, but the task was to stop and return them. In most cases it was successful. Yes, sometimes especially zealous people were shot. But not the way "historians" describe it now. They say they put machine guns and all those running were shot.

    The same is true of penal battalions. In his opinion, this was a way out for the fighter who committed the crime. Either shoot (since no one would send him to the rear in prison), or let him bathe in blood.
    But then again, not like everyone is showing now.

    The same is with any period of our history. In particular about the repressions of the 30s. Who is to blame? The fighter who carried out the sentence? An NKVD investigator? The President of the Tribunal or the Troika? You can probably count them as criminals. Was the leadership of the NKVD and the state guilty or not? The same Stalin to whom the lists were brought for approval? And not only him?
    Now a lot can be turned upside down. Make heroes criminals and vice versa. If desired, everyone can be "disassembled" by the bones and in the deeds of the same Zhukov find both dark and light sides. Not about that.

    I agree with Roman about this. Memory is memory. Finding and returning names is a must. And not only war veterans, but also those who came under the rink of repression. I am against the conjuncture in this. If there were 49 people shot, let 49 remain, and do not turn into 149, then in 1490, and then into 149 thousand.

    I apologize for the somewhat messy post. But the topic is really sore and often there are such conjuncturers about whom Roman wrote about and there are not only in Moscow, but also in other cities of the country. They just know less or don’t know at all
    1. +1
      23 December 2016 10: 49
      You are absolutely right. There is no exaggeration, both on the left and on the right - they affect society equally and give weapons to the hands of our potential adversaries.
    2. +2
      23 December 2016 16: 40
      I completely agree that we cannot judge whether the repressed people were guilty or not.
      In this sense, two things reflect that time very well: "Quiet Don" and "Eternal Call".

      However, at the same time, it should be noted that throughout the 20 years in Central Asia there was a war with the Basmachi. A sickly such struggle.
      Transcaucasia. Collisions with gangs are regular up to the Second World War. Moreover, sometimes there were very serious losses in the spacecraft.

      Threat by the way, some could be reprimanded several times. For example, basmachi.
      1. 0
        23 December 2016 22: 49
        And you climb to the website of the GARF archive - everything has been laid out there long ago, calculated according to the documents. People rush through the open door.
    3. +1
      23 December 2016 18: 18
      Old26
      In particular, about the detachments. There were. And they were necessary, since in his opinion there were situations when our units simply fled under the onslaught. And the tasks of the detachments were not to shoot all those fleeing on the spot, but the task was to stop and return them. In most cases it was successful. Yes, sometimes especially zealous people were shot. But not the way "historians" describe it now. They say they put machine guns and all those running were shot.


      thanks for the post ... I highlighted this because I also know the opinion of a war veteran who was awarded and worthily fought, now like many who have left ... So he spoke about the detachments: "We have such a colossal pearl ... If not for the feeling that behind your back these detachments, I do not know, could have withstood and not run ... "
      This indicates what kind of enemy we defeated - a terrible and invincible before he came to us. And there is no need to poke around with all the "hackers" and try to show what was not and cover up Victory with mud. On the M4 highway there is a monument - on one side a woman-mother, on the other - cranes, and the inscription "INCORRECTED". Just one word, but how much is said! Only a foreigner cannot understand and feel all that any of us experiences after reading this ...
  17. +3
    23 December 2016 09: 43
    Compared to how many lives were killed and the arrogant Saxo were genocidal, all these figures are at the level of zero error. There’s nothing to talk about ...
    Yes, and besides, the overwhelming majority of the "repressed" in the Stalin years were really guilty.
  18. +1
    23 December 2016 10: 25
    To repent, if there is what we should before the Lord, and not before other people, what would happen if we began to repent to each other? But this is precisely what the liberal party is pushing us to do, repenting on behalf of the Russians, but consisting mainly of non-Gussians. In general, it is strange to see when the majority of all kinds of funds are non-Gusian, maybe it is necessary to protect the Russians and pass a law on their mandatory representation in various organizations and departments.
  19. +1
    23 December 2016 10: 42
    Quote: Egoza
    Somehow, all those who hate the communists forget that it was under the communists that they grew up, received a free education, rested in pioneer camps, attended free circles and much more was available to them.

    For some reason, all those who praise the Soviet times write about free circles and medical care. Is that the traditional love of freebies? There was no main thing - FREEDOM! The freedom to read what you want, the freedom to travel where you want, work where you want, get paid for work where you want, have your own business, whatever you want. This was not the case. And those who do not need it, of course, felt good. They are like EVERYONE! And for those who were not like everything was very bad. But they, alas, are the movers of social progress. By the way, even now in the USSR, free self-service exists - I went to the clinic, spent an hour or two with the old women, then they received you for 10 minutes and moved on! NOTHING has changed. But ... but now I can choose - to go to such a clinic, and not at the place of residence as before, but even on the edge of the city, to the center of paid medical services where the reception is 300-600 rubles. and the same number of tests, or to his doctor in his own center, where he allocates TWO HOURS to each patient and where there are no queues at all. "VERY EXPENSIVE" - 1200 initial admission and 1000 repeated + medicines selected exclusively for you for a fee. But ... QUALITATIVE! So everyone chooses their own path!
    By the way, sociologists have proved that the less a person is at a lower level of intelligence or is he poorly socialized, the greater the problem for him is the choice! There is no choice - he is sincerely happy! Do not strain the foam. And since there are 80% of such people under the Pareto law, then why be surprised that they like it so much ... its absence!
    1. +3
      23 December 2016 11: 19
      Quote: kalibr
      For some reason, all praising Soviet times write about free mugs and medical care. Is that a traditional love for freebies?

      No. This is not a freebie, but an equal opportunity for everyone, not just for those with a tight wallet. And talent identification! And in technology, and in creativity, and in culture. It was thanks to this that Rastropovich appeared (he studied in a special children's musical group), the singer Miroshnichenko, (which was opened during an amateur art show) and many others, who later became people's artists of the USSR and the Republics. (I will modestly keep silent about my family in this regard) You are now watching "The Blue Bird" - this is how in the days of Stalin there was a STATE SEARCH FOR TALENTS. And the rest could just do it for their own pleasure, and there was no time for partying drunks. The classes were more interesting. As for FREEDOM (especially entrepreneurship) Why are you reading so badly? At least read here https://topwar.ru/82220-predprinimateli-stalina.h
      tml
      Although there are many articles on this topic. Khrushchev hacked everything to death, but this is a completely "different song." The freedom to travel ... where? over the hill? Well, the "Sputnik" voucher will help you. Have you seen your whole country, the USSR? Have you seen all the republics? Freedom to read ... And who did you miss? Solzhenitsin? Oh well. Although, again, this is not for this article. Here we are talking about the times of I.V. Stalin. And people in his time had completely different interests.
      1. +2
        23 December 2016 12: 31
        I am not always able to read VO carefully. I write to it myself. And about the search for talent is not necessary. I work at the university and I know better than you how people search, select, celebrate from us. I specially took lists of competitions for students to select the best ones. We invite schoolchildren, test them, and reward them with points all the time. Teachers go to schools (only 4 are assigned to me), talk about specialties, help "find myself." I have a granddaughter in all sorts of circles, she graduated from a music school (for her and in the USSR had to pay, by the way!), But ... well, there are no bright abilities. And so, whoever has - please. And about Sputnik ... I was in Bulgaria in 1968, 72, but they didn’t let me into Egypt - no, for 25 years. And about England ... in general it was necessary to forget. Now I, like many others, go wherever I want, I publish books where I want and the state does not take 80% of my currency from me, as it was in the USSR. And people's interests are always the same. They're just embarrassed to say it honestly!
        1. +4
          23 December 2016 13: 07
          I work at a university and I know better than you how they search, select, and celebrate from us.

          Your self-doubt is clearly off scale. You do not know me and my work activities.
          Quote: kalibr
          And the interests of people are always the same. They just feel shy about this honestly!

          Oh really? Only someone, even while on a business trip (trip), runs to the museum, and someone to the store.
          By the way, specify what are the interests of people about whom they are embarrassed to talk about.
          Yes, and about 4 fixed schools ... but didn’t you try to call in rural schools? Just like that. .... looking for talent?
          1. 0
            23 December 2016 20: 21
            You may not know the activity, but you can judge by the statements ...
            And before you run to the museum and to the store, you need to eat, recover, and get dressed, and to have money for this, and to work for this!
            Interests are - to get drunk on beer or vodka from the heart and ... do nothing!
            And we don't go to villages. On the appointed day, a landing of teachers leaves our university for the regional center, and for them in the house of culture or where they gather those who wish from all villages. This is how we organize it. It is not rational to travel around the villages alone - "the economy must be economical." In addition, there is a site where everyone is offered university Saturdays, Olympiads, etc. And who does not need to - sits at home!
    2. +4
      23 December 2016 11: 37
      Quote: kalibr
      There was no main thing - FREEDOM! Freedom to read what you want, freedom to travel where you want, work where you want, get money for work, where you want, to have your own business, what you want. That was not there.

      There was no freedom to read in the most reading country in the world, there was no freedom to travel from Riga to Leningrad at a price of 15 rubles, and from Moscow to Alma-Ata, 62 rubles, and they did not pay money, and did not allow them to exploit ....
      Whether it is now, if you want to read Solzhenitsyn, if you want Rezun, though "Mein Kampf" for some reason is not available for sale belay , you want, take a rest in Kursaveli or Hawaii, or fly to the Far East, though the majority have no money for it ..., you want slander wink By the way, the article can be understood as an article against defamation.
      FREEDOM!
      “It’s hard for me to imagine what kind of“ personal freedom ”there can be for an unemployed who walks hungry and does not find the use of his labor. Real freedom exists only where exploitation is abolished, where there is no oppression of some people by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a person does not tremble because tomorrow he may lose his job, home, bread. Only in such a society is real, not paper, personal and any other freedom possible "(IV Stalin. From an interview with the chairman of the newspaper association" Scripps-Howard Newspapers "by Roy Howard)
      PS
      Quote: kalibr
      And since there are 80% of such people under Pareto law, ....

      A new toy about a stupid people and a talented "elite", to which you count yourself?
      1. +1
        23 December 2016 12: 24
        You do not understand the essence of the Pareto law. This is not an absolute indicator, but a relative one. You can be in 20% and 80% at the same time, but, yes, if you have all the indicators go to 80%, then, of course, forget about prosperity. But ... the flaws in one - can be compensated for in another. What is in the way? Laziness, dullness ... but if so, then does society need such individuals? So our people are not stupid at all, but some of its representatives are stupid immensely. As in any other, by the way!

        By the way, the toy is old (1897 of the year), but in the USSR it was not reported even in universities ... Why?
        1. +3
          23 December 2016 13: 35
          here again appeared Slavik Shpakovsky aka kalibr, who at one time worked as a lecturer at the regional committee! lol and told everyone that free education and medicine is a craving for a freebie! belay
          1. 0
            23 December 2016 20: 22
            No, this is a craving for mediocrity to mediocrity!
            1. 0
              23 December 2016 21: 49
              Quote: kalibr
              No, this is a craving for mediocrity to mediocrity!

              Is that bad? laughing
          2. +1
            23 December 2016 21: 13
            Yes, he worked and instilled in the consciousness of the masses confidence in the triumph of Lenin's ideas. But ... there was no more sausage and I was asked, but the party program said ... 1980, promised free ... "The intrigues of American imperialism!" - that was the explanation. Everything is as it is now, huh?
        2. 0
          23 December 2016 19: 10
          Quote: kalibr
          By the way, the toy is old (1897 of the year), but in the USSR it was not reported even in universities ... Why?

          Really, why? laughing
          So, now, freedom for whom, how much and for whom?
          PS
          Quote: kalibr
          if you have all the indicators go to 80%, then, of course, forget about prosperity

          Those. , if God did not give mind, then it is not supposed to live with dignity? And how to “measure” these percentages? And is it equal to opportunism, obsequiousness to the mind? wink
          1. 0
            23 December 2016 20: 25
            It’s easy to check: I’ll explain on examples of university science that are familiar to me. The man defended his dissertation and ... one article per year, so that lectures on the abstract, worn down to holes, also lagged behind. Another writes 12 articles a year, prints them in prestigious magazines, writes books, reads off-sheet, his textbooks are on the Web, etc. What is worthy of a bigger salary? Or are they equal in the benefits they bring to society?
            1. +3
              23 December 2016 20: 39
              Quote: kalibr
              What is worthy of a bigger salary? Or are they equal in the benefits they bring to society?

              For me, you have to take away your salary, "Bolshevik". And pay extra to the one who wrote one, but high-quality and useful. wink
              1. 0
                23 December 2016 22: 38
                This is not necessary! You perfectly understood what I mean, but you shouldn't say yes to the second. Love the mediocrity. And you justify them by saying that "one, but good."
                But just one thing he wrote poor-quality ... and someone 12 quality! And also a monograph and ... a lot of things! And the attitude of students ... Don’t forget about it, it is very easily verified in the era of the Internet. And now, thank God, a university rating has been introduced, and those who work as they should get more - an award at the end of the year. And the one with a low rating is the first candidate for dismissal. From each according to his ability, to each according to his work - everything is Leninist!
          2. 0
            23 December 2016 21: 10
            Quote: There was a mammoth
            Those. , if God did not give a mind, then is it not proper to live worthy?

            That is, let him live at someone else’s expense, not earned. For where then is the money from? Out of my pocket and yours!
    3. +4
      23 December 2016 16: 23
      Free circles and medicine - this is not a freebie on the part of the state - this is an investment.
      For comparison: In 1901, infant mortality was 300 people per 1000.
      in 1916 - 250, in 1918 - about 270, in 1927 - 205, in 1931 - 300, 1940 - 200, 1947 - 150, 1960 - less than 40, and in the 80s less than 20. And this is only infant mortality.

      Those. the state investing money in free medicine corrupts itself
      labor resources that will create its (state) welfare.

      The same thing with chickens. Mugs are the primary training and career guidance of future labor reserves. This was especially important in the early years of industrialization. and right after the war. Recall that most pilots went through aero clubs, and most radio operators went through amateur radio clubs.

      Those. there is no freebie from the state - there is a firm calculation. Although from the side of an ordinary person - this may seem like a freebie.
      1. 0
        23 December 2016 20: 28
        Well, so it is now. There are SUT, centers for children's creativity - one is next to me, my granddaughter went to various circles. The music school was paid in the USSR and paid now.
        1. 0
          26 December 2016 11: 54
          kalibr he is Slavik Shpakovsky to the village go where the schools were during the USSR, even the foundations were gone! belay
        2. +1
          27 December 2016 14: 33
          Yeah. Only hospitals are cutting back, Examinations have ceased to be mandatory (even the USB stick has become optional), Many health programs are curtailed or funded on a residual basis. Moreover, part of the defeated diseases returned.

          The music was paid - yes, but sports clubs, technical clubs were free (as I remember doing with dogs now - it's all free: Athletics training, dog training (and the training course cost 25 and 50 rubles), a pool 3 times a week, shooting gallery .
          Now all the same would be worth decent money.
          In addition, almost everything that now functions almost for free - all this is based on what was laid in the Soviet era.
  20. 0
    23 December 2016 10: 47
    Quote: Volzhanin
    It was really guilty.

    Did you work in the GARF that you so peremptorily declare?
  21. +3
    23 December 2016 10: 51
    Or maybe it's enough to repent already? Those who deserved it were shot. In modern history, many more "God's chosen" should be shot. It's time to shoot those who are eager to destroy Russia as well, trying to make it repent forever, just as the USSR was destroyed.
  22. +2
    23 December 2016 11: 04
    My grandfather on my mother's side was a staff captain. During the Great Revolution he was a teacher, then the chairman of a collective farm. He died in 1940. Mom and father have lived in Leningrad since 1934. My father was in the military, died on December 27, 1941 on the Leningrad front. I remember my mother told me that during the first years of Soviet power there was a proverb in the country. "Soviet power rests on Jewish minds, Latvian riflemen and Russian fools." All along the line of his wife were revolutionaries. Her uncle Yagunov I.A. member of Tsentrobalt, commanded a detachment of sailors in the storming of the Winter Palace. Shot as an enemy of the people in 1937. Rehabilitated in 1954.
    So at the moment, watching Chubais in power. I have the honor.
  23. 0
    23 December 2016 11: 19
    So, “to whom it is profitable” to replicate the tale of “Russian Calvary”?

    Yeah but nonetheless
    I do not argue, there were shootings.

    So it was or wasn’t, and who distributes fairy tales here is a question
  24. +2
    23 December 2016 11: 35
    Interesting article. I also doubt the truth of what is said in Butovo. Moreover, I know how they worked in the NKVD in those years (from a reliable source), I’m sure the reporting was strict. It seems that there is another distortion and manipulation of numbers, as happens with the reign of Ivan the Terrible. The goal is clear, a people without a past has no future.
    Regarding repentance. Let there be a memorial complex in Butovo, a place of remembrance of the missing and simply dead. Yes, and the temple is never superfluous.
  25. +4
    23 December 2016 11: 40
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Glory to comrade Stalin for our happy childhood.

    The author was confused by the figure? In Kiev, the future General Sec of the Central Committee of the CP SS managed to shoot 40 "enemies of the people". The glory of the NKVD is the valor, honor and conscience of Bolshevism.

    --------------------------------
    Do you have Stalin and Khrushchev is the same person? As far as I understand. And Khrushchev turned things around in Kiev at the direct direction of Stalin or himself? And with what wording he was removed from his post, can you tell me? Or did he then gain a penchant for arbitrariness? There has never been, and here you are welcome.
  26. 0
    23 December 2016 11: 42
    Quote: midshipman
    My mother’s grandfather was the captain’s staff.

    --------------------------
    Will you be a nobleman? And why didn't the "Jewish commissars" slam you as a counter? Not you personally, but your ancestors.
  27. +1
    23 December 2016 11: 46
    Quote: kalibr
    For some reason, all praising Soviet times write about free mugs and medical care. Is that a traditional love for freebies? There was no main thing - FREEDOM! Freedom to read what you want, freedom to travel where you want, work where you want, get money for work, where you want, to have your own business, what you want. That was not there.

    --------------------------------------------
    Well, there was no freedom. This is, of course, the merit of Suslov with a stupid, stale ideology, and of a number of other comrades who have successfully driven the country into the dead end of perestroika. What kind of "freedom" do you have now? Identify yourself on the Internet? Or the freedom to travel without money?
    1. 0
      23 December 2016 20: 35
      On the Internet, you can identify yourself in different ways. This and (bad word) can. I earn money there and ... I go wherever I want. My articles were published in England, Belgium, USA, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Australia, Japan, books in England and Germany, so ... whoever wants and works, can do a lot. You just need to be able to use all this, constantly improving.
      1. 0
        23 December 2016 21: 55
        Quote: kalibr
        On the Internet, you can identify yourself in different ways. This and (bad word) can. I earn money there and ... I go wherever I want.

        Rather, "where I can." Because some employee of the Penza State University complained in the comments on the VO about the lack of funds, even the earnings are not the same as those of the overseas professors, for trips to all sorts of interesting places and other archives with excavations. If my memory does not fail me. smile
        1. +1
          23 December 2016 22: 32
          It is truth too. But money is never enough! It would be more - would travel more often, what is the conversation? You would read more interesting articles from the scene and photos not from the Internet. The benefit of VO readers is obvious.
  28. 0
    23 December 2016 11: 49
    Quote: Hupfri
    Yeah but nonetheless
    I do not argue, there were shootings.

    So it was or wasn’t, and who distributes fairy tales here is a question

    -----------------------------------
    That is, you are for executions, but only from other characters. Either from which with golden epaulettes on their shoulders, or from those who are in uniform from Hugo Boss, or from some Romanian Sigurans.
  29. +3
    23 December 2016 12: 19
    Any monuments and cemeteries not supported by documents must be closed. Enough to demand repentance, enemies destroyed!
    Gorbachev, Yeltsin, these are the enemies, because of politics, tens of millions of Soviet citizens have died out or left!
  30. +2
    23 December 2016 15: 20
    Any habitat can be mastered. And if it is capable of making a profit, it does not matter, in the form of direct withdrawal of money or payment "from afar", then the environment will certainly be mastered.
    The subject of repression is an example of such an environment. While the Lokhankins of various kinds and directions respond, while there is an individual who can be turned into a hamster, someone will use this topic for their own purposes. Like other similar topics.
  31. +4
    23 December 2016 17: 52
    I propose to rename the Yeltsin Center into the House of Rest, where the "reformers" will repent and hand over what they have stolen.
    1. 0
      23 December 2016 22: 37
      If you decided to make a place of sorrow in Butovo ------- okay. So in Moscow you don’t need to create any places of sorrow. Walking distance .. There are no burial places. Who wants to express their emotions ---- let him spend his time and will go. And do not do these places of sorrow separately from burials.
  32. +1
    23 December 2016 18: 39
    Quote: Sergey956
    Or maybe it's enough to repent already? Those who deserved it were shot. In modern history, many more "God's chosen" should be shot. It's time to shoot those who are eager to destroy Russia as well, trying to make it repent forever, just as the USSR was destroyed.

    Not always. Someone could fall under the roller of repression and the "trailer". On the denunciation of an envious person or simply because the interrogated could not stand the torture and gave out the names of sometimes completely uninvolved people. Those who deserved it were shot, of course.
    Some of the "nonchaxtrous" were lucky and ended up in a camp, not in a ditch. An illustrative example is the same Korolev, who went to the camp not for his deeds.

    Quote: kalibr
    For some reason, all those who praise the Soviet times write about free circles and medical care. Is that the traditional love of freebies? There was no main thing - FREEDOM! The freedom to read what you want, the freedom to travel where you want, work where you want, get paid for work where you want, have your own business, whatever you want. This was not the case. And those who do not need it, of course, felt good. They are like EVERYONE! And for those who were not like everything was very bad. But they, alas, are the movers of social progress. By the way, even now in the USSR, free self-service exists - I went to the clinic, spent an hour or two with the old women, then they received you for 10 minutes and moved on! NOTHING has changed. But ... but now I can choose - to go to such a clinic, and not at the place of residence as before, but even on the edge of the city, to the center of paid medical services where the reception is 300-600 rubles. and the same number of tests, or to his doctor in his own center, where he allocates TWO HOURS to each patient and where there are no queues at all. "VERY EXPENSIVE" - 1200 initial admission and 1000 repeated + medicines selected exclusively for you for a fee. But ... QUALITATIVE! So everyone chooses their own path!
    By the way, sociologists have proved that the less a person is at a lower level of intelligence or is he poorly socialized, the greater the problem for him is the choice! There is no choice - he is sincerely happy! Do not strain the foam. And since there are 80% of such people under the Pareto law, then why be surprised that they like it so much ... its absence!

    In some ways we can agree with you, in others not. As for the circles - let's leave it "outside the brackets" for now. They were there and everyone could get what they want there. Either free or for a nominal fee. Now all this has been put on a commercial track.
    With regard to medical care. It was free, but please note that during the years of Soviet power it was far from the worst. If only due to the fact that a medical student studied his craft, and did not pay money for it and received a "crust". And in principle, the bulk, at least in the 70s-80s, was satisfied with this service. If you had any complaints about the doctors, you could go to the self-supporting polyclinic, which was in every city. Yes, sometimes the professionalism of the local doctors was much higher, I do not argue. But even in them, the price was not prohibitive for an ordinary citizen.
    Now .... It’s difficult now to measure all with one arshin. Sometimes, in a regular clinic, doctors work quite well, expertly. And specifically for you the same medicines are prescribed. here sometimes the whole thing is in the doctor himself. In some situations - yes, you can pay and go to a paid doctor. Everyone decides for themselves what type of health care to choose.

    Quote: There was a mammoth
    There was no freedom to read in the most reading country in the world, there was no freedom to travel from Riga to Leningrad at a price of 15 rubles, and from Moscow to Alma-Ata, 62 rubles, and they did not pay money, and did not allow them to exploit ....
    Whether it's now, if you want to read Solzhenitsyn, if you want Rezun, though "Mein Kampf" for some reason is not on the free sale belay, if you want, take a break in Courchevel or Hawaii or fly to the Far East, though most of them don't have money for this ... , you want-slander wink. By the way, the article can be understood as an article against libel.

    You are not entirely correct. In the USSR, there was a very strict selection of what to read and what not. Despite the fact that the USSR was the most reading country. It was so. The information was very tightly controlled. The ideological sector of the Central Committee of the CPSU worked 24 hours a day. And I, frankly speaking, did not care about the literature of "our" defectors-emigrants, such as Solzhenitsin, Rezun. And others. But the same prohibition extended to technical literature, but this was very annoying. To some extent, the ban on literature and foreign authors strained, which gave rise to samizdat. Although after reading many of them I understood that from a literary point of view, these works are zero.
    Travel. You have quoted the prices for trips within the country. But could an ordinary Soviet citizen leave the USSR like this. how can you leave now? No, that was not the case. Without a visa from the party committee of the enterprise (plus an inspection by the KGB), you could not even leave for the same "fraternal" Bulgaria, which everyone considered the 16th union republic. Well, if he already had the form of admission, then he could not even dream of such a trip. In some ways it was right, in others it was not. It is impossible to describe everything with only two colors: white and black. She had a multicolored life.

    Mein Kampf was commercially available in the early 2000s.
    1. +1
      23 December 2016 20: 01
      Quote: Old26
      In some ways, you can agree with you, in some, no.

      Quote: Old26
      You are not quite right. In the USSR there was a very strict selection of what to read and what not.

      Was! Is it different now? Remember at least one TV program (almost "the most important of the arts"), where the country's problems were openly and honestly discussed. I heard about Ukraine, I heard about Syria, right up to hand-to-hand combat, but I did not hear about pensions in Russia. belay Example. Yesterday I watched Solovyov. About history, repression, Stalin. I heard clever thoughts. But there were no "culprits" - the communists. They were "replaced" by the host. wink By the way, a rare show! I am about thoughts.
      Quote: Old26
      Well, if it had an admission form, then he might not have dreamed of such a trip.

      Sign. It was the first! In children today it is similar. And it is right!
      Quote: Old26
      Life she was multicolored.

      You are right, many do not understand this, but usually it is striped. wink
      1. +1
        23 December 2016 20: 50
        But can you go now? Isn't it interesting to see the castles of the Loire Valley or Les Invalides in Paris, the Cathedral of All Saints in Barsenon ... a lot of things, after all, in Moscow, and in St. Petersburg, and in Kazan, and ... we were everywhere about the same thing. There is something very different and interesting. It's interesting to compare. Evaluate. Communicate with people who are not like your neighbors. As for information ... Who is stopping you from reading the same "American Interest"? There are very interesting and sober articles, from which only "fragments" sometimes get here. By the way, our scientist today can publish any (!) His scientific article in the same States. Not everyone can go to lecture, but those who can adequately represent their country can. Anyone, not a chosen one, and a kegeist will not stand behind. Books, finally, by the same Western authors can also be read without censorship, without scandals, as was the case with the Odyssey 2001 and its sequel ... Not all in a row, but ... good.
        And as for medical care ... I had a bunch of sores when I was young (with good free medicine!), And now at 62 I feel better than then. They offered a viewing operation ... "let's see and sew." Here's how! Was smart enough to send them ... Have you forgotten about drilling teeth without anesthesia? And a foot drive to the drill ... The Gestapo is resting.
    2. +1
      23 December 2016 20: 59
      When I went to Bulgaria on a ticket to Oblsovprof in 1968, I received a description of the Komsomol organization of the school (with a ticket purchased!) And ... the school party committee !!! In the 1989 year, my article was published in Bulgaria about the model of the 1877 mine boat of the year. The dollar fee has come! 25 bucks! I was immediately informed that the state takes ... 20, and leaves me 5, with checks to the Birch shop in Moscow. There I bought a very good wool blouse for my wife. But why 5, not 20? In my opinion this is a robbery! But now, when my books are published in England, I get everything as it should, minus the bank interest and it is not at all predatory. It is clear that not everyone writes books, but ... if there is no work here, it is always there - it's just that our people are still afraid of everything, they did not learn languages ​​at school. And most importantly, they don’t think that the world is narrow for fools, it’s wide for smart people.
      1. 0
        23 December 2016 21: 59
        Quote: kalibr
        The dollar fee has come! 25 bucks! I was immediately informed that the state takes ... 20, and leaves me 5, with checks to the Birch shop in Moscow. There I bought a very good wool blouse for my wife. But why 5, not 20? In my opinion this is a robbery!

        No, it's just greed. laughing
        Quote: kalibr
        It is clear that not everyone writes books, but ... if there is no work here, it is always there - it's just that our people are still afraid of everything, they did not learn languages ​​at school. And most importantly, they don’t think that the world is narrow for fools, it’s wide for smart people.

        In general, it’s clear. You fit into the market, and I congratulate you on this. smile
        1. 0
          23 December 2016 22: 22
          It always happens. Someone fits into the new, someone does not. But progress is being made whether we like it or not. About greed I do not agree. Every work must be fairly paid, and if your own state robs you, then this is a bad state and it must be replaced by a good one. It is clear that all that it has stolen from you is not to be returned, it’s also that you butted a bull, but ... at least some part, not 80%. And so it’s completely normal. The fish is looking for where it is deeper, and the man - where it is better!
      2. 0
        23 December 2016 22: 30
        And for the second time (and maybe even more) you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, remember that drill and tooth! At that time the technique was about the same everywhere. It's a pity, there are no doctors here now. When was that? Well, OLD 26 is good about paid polyclinics under the Soviet the authorities wrote. Could go there! But you WAS put a special polyclinic !!!!!!! Teeth were treated and cure everything! And for some reason you alone suffer already 30, 40 ......... And maybe 50 years.How did you write in the comments to the article about the Stolypin reforms about this tooth? Or another? Aaaaaa, there was also about a drunken plumber! What for the sake of this alone from the "scoop" would not leave a stone unturned So you put it there then. ...
        ABALDET simply! Technical progress would have gone. No, you rejoice in the destruction of the country. If only the plumbers sweeping the floor for you.
        1. 0
          24 December 2016 20: 42
          The USSR, Dmitry, had no future, so it was supposed to collapse in any way. So he collapsed. And it’s good that there was no civil war.
          Quote: Reptiloid
          At that time, the technique was about the same everywhere.
          Still, you are an ignorant person, you don’t know basic things.
          And the special clinic too. But not to his wife or daughter. And in the paid queue there was a wild line, even worse than in the usual ... And the destruction of the country, I'm ... not very happy. But this was an objective process that did not depend on me. You are not sobbing because the hail has started? And so even then I lived well, and having defended my doctoral thesis in the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and would be absolutely excellent. But ... now I like life more, no matter what. You do not need to "get" anything, bow to the plumbers, you can go wherever you want, and earnings are limited only by your hard work and talent. No talent, Dmitry, no earnings!
          1. 0
            24 December 2016 21: 26
            But what? I saw this technique? 50 years ago, technology was everywhere 50 years ago. Old. Now it’s better everywhere. Even for 50 years. In your stories about teeth ----- there are some inconsistencies, it’s useless. Your teeth were treated by everyone, and you are the only one who is suffering.
            The bad news is that, as I often repeat, we have a huge difference between the center and the regions. WHAT would not be considered as the center, where would the reference point come from.
            As for the destruction of the USSR, it was a secret enemy process. As you know, the USSR was destroyed from the inside. Despite the fact that there was a margin of safety.
            HERE China was reformatted under the leadership of the CCP and the life of its citizens improved. We often have Chinese people come for 3-day excursions ----- directors of employees are encouraged in this way. I read that in different countries.
        2. +3
          24 December 2016 21: 16
          Quote: Reptiloid
          ABALDET simply! Technical progress would have gone. No, you rejoice in the destruction of the country. If only the plumbers sweeping the floor for you.

          So this is a former communist, moreover, a teacher of Marxism-Leninism. The motivation and meaning of the life of such people is simply indecent.
          1) The complex of Judah. ​​They most hate what they betrayed. That is, the ideas of socialism. Well, courage and conscience to hang kalibr and people like him, of course, are not enough.
          2) Greed. From the point of view of such people, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was a bad owner, greedy, took away a lot and gave it to the "cattle."
          PS I think it’s self-evident that for 30 pieces of silver such as kalibr they will sell their mother, and, of course, free people whose sense of life is not limited to the desire to sell more expensive, such people hate to shiver. They don’t understand how you can think not only about yourself.
          1. 0
            24 December 2016 22: 48
            As a matter of fact, Odysseus, those ancestors who were raised in a communist spirit, were sold. There was an article about those relatives. Well, not personally, but their ideas, their country. Actually, Odysseus, if not for those relatives, their capabilities according to the device of this person in society, he could take a modest position.
    3. 0
      26 December 2016 12: 07
      Old26 are you telling this to kalibru? he is Slavik shpakovsky who during the Soviet era worked as a lecturer at the regional committee! "Once betrayed, betrayed twice! The law of fate is always harsh."
  33. +3
    23 December 2016 21: 51
    Was! Is it different now? Remember at least one TV program (almost "the most important of the arts"), where the country's problems were openly and honestly discussed. I heard about Ukraine, I heard about Syria, right up to hand-to-hand combat, but I did not hear about pensions in Russia. belay Example. Yesterday I watched Solovyov. About history, repression, Stalin. I heard clever thoughts. But there were no "culprits" - the communists. They were "replaced" by the host. wink By the way, a rare show! I am about thoughts.


    Not now (as for books). Now you can buy a really interesting book (or download it), and frankly get along. In the USSR, this was much stricter, which gave rise to such a phenomenon as samizdat. And there, in samizdat, there were not only "ideologically harmful" books, but also a mass of literature (detective stories and science fiction). After reading many of them, I realized that, in principle, it is correct that detective stories do not reach the Soviet reader, for, frankly speaking, weak works.
    But the most annoying thing was the removal from technical journals of materials related to both our technology (not just military).
    TV In principle, I almost do not watch. Only news channels in the evening. Films? If there is a desire, I just download without this fucking advertisement. TV shows are very rare. Soloviev is a pleasant exception.

    Sign. It was the first! In children today it is similar. And it is right!

    In principle, it is correct, especially if people had, as we have a high tolerance. But not everyone could understand why they were not allowed into the same Bulgaria, even if they did not have work related to secrets.

    But now can you go? Is it not interesting to see the castles of the Loire Valley or the Invalides in Paris, the Cathedral of All Saints in Barsenon ..... a lot of things.

    Now, probably not. In this case, the financial issue comes first. Although I hope that in a couple of years I can do it

    Still, in Moscow, and in St. Petersburg, and in Kazan, and .... we were everywhere about the same thing. There is a lot different and interesting. It is interesting to compare. To rate. Chat with people who are not like your neighbors.

    Well, in our "penates" you can find interesting places, although, of course, in other countries there are different people, different customs. And it's always interesting to compare.

    As for information ... Who is stopping you from reading the same "American Interest"? There are very interesting and sober articles, from which only "fragments" sometimes get here.

    Now we can, I don't argue. I continue to look through the same "Aviaishin Vic", "Spaceflight" and similar magazines out of habit

    By the way, our scientist can publish any (!) Scientific article in the same States today. Not everyone can go to lecture, but one who can adequately represent his country can. Anyone who is not chosen, and the Kagaiist will not stand behind.

    Well, it basically doesn’t bother me ...

    Books, finally, of the same Western authors can also be read without censorship, without scandals, as was the case with the Odyssey 2001 and its continuation ... Not all in a row, but ... good.

    Good ... They are extremely few. What do they have, what do we have.

    And as for medical care ... I had a bunch of sores when I was young (with good free medicine!), And now at 62 I feel better than then. They offered a viewing operation ... "let's see and sew." Here's how! Was smart enough to send them ... Have you forgotten about drilling teeth without anesthesia? And a foot drive to the drill ... The Gestapo is resting.

    You were unlucky. I did not have any sores in my youth, and even now there are not very many. Is it just overweight and sometimes aching joints. Therefore, maybe my attitude to "free" doctors is even. Or maybe I was lucky to have friends among doctors.
    The drill ... Yes, it was like that. But the foot drive in the city no longer found. Moreover, there were even ultrasounds.

    When I went to Bulgaria on a ticket to Oblsovprof in 1968, I received a description of the Komsomol organization of the school (with a ticket purchased!) And ... the school party committee !!! .

    Well, in those years I was fortunate enough to be on the other side of the continent with my parents. In sunny Mongolia (fortunately a short time). And with a passport issued by 10 GU of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR. laughing

    In 1989, my article was published in Bulgaria about the model of a mine boat of 1877. The dollar fee has come! 25 bucks! I was immediately informed that the state takes ... 20, and leaves me 5, with checks to the Birch shop in Moscow. There I bought a very good wool blouse for my wife. But why 5, not 20? In my opinion this is a robbery! But now, when my books are published in England, I get everything as it should, minus the bank interest and it is not at all predatory. It is clear that not everyone writes books, but ... if there is no work here, it is always there - it's just that our people are still afraid of everything, they did not learn languages ​​at school. And most importantly, they don’t think that the world is narrow for fools, it’s wide for smart people.

    There was such a thing in our history. No one says it was not. But the article is a little different. About the conjuncturers from history, about the fact that some people make this not only a name, but also money. And about life in the USSR, you can talk a lot. There were light streaks in that life, and dark. It was. And there is nothing to be done. It is foolish to deny what was. This, as I wrote, is our story. Whatever she is
    1. 0
      23 December 2016 22: 27
      What you write is obvious to any rational person.
  34. 0
    23 December 2016 22: 29
    Quote: kalibr
    Well, that basically doesn’t bother me.


    And I care. This is my job and I want to be able to do it well!
    1. +1
      24 December 2016 09: 25
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: kalibr
      Well, that basically doesn’t bother me.


      And I care. This is my job and I want to be able to do it well!


      Some kind of hell takes it. Does a man speak to himself with everyone and contradict himself ?? !! Or didn’t he recognize himself? Or is it his cloned interlocutor, about the creation of such interlocutors earlier in other articles he wrote.
      1. 0
        24 December 2016 20: 47
        Whether it still will be, Dmitry, this is not a blunder!
  35. +1
    24 December 2016 10: 56
    The monarchists need to repent for the fact that, while sympathizing with the baker, they do not want to see the powerlessness, deprivation and suffering of peasants and workers, colorfully represented both in Russian classical literature and in historical sources. The communists need to repent for the fact that, sympathizing with the working people, they do not want to see crimes in the preparation and organization of a coup d'etat with the participation of Western special services and many crimes committed by various murky individuals under the slogan of "dictatorship of the proletariat" against peasants, Cossacks, nobles, priests, intelligentsia ... Liberals need to repent for their active or tacit support for the collapse of the USSR, which plunged tens of millions of people into chaos of collapse, conflicts, poverty and lawlessness, which brought the country to its knees before the court of Western "common people". Repentance should be given to those who today continue the civil war in the forums, finding in this a substitute for "tanchiki", while weakening the mobilization of society, its readiness for creative work and a leap to the joy of enemies who need a weak Russia torn apart by contradictions and conflicts. People, repent!
  36. +1
    24 December 2016 11: 17
    Quote: Reptiloid
    Some kind of scumbag takes. A man with all himself talking to himself and contradicting himself ??

    Camrad kalibr wrong in quoting. The words it doesn't bother me belong to me. I am not a scientist, not a scientist, and therefore the issues of publishing my work abroad me really do not care

    Quote: Stanislav
    The monarchists need to repent for the fact that, while sympathizing with the baker, they do not want to see the powerlessness, deprivation and suffering of peasants and workers, colorfully represented both in Russian classical literature and in historical sources. The communists need to repent for the fact that, sympathizing with the working people, they do not want to see crimes in the preparation and organization of a coup d'etat with the participation of Western special services and many crimes committed by various murky individuals under the slogan of "dictatorship of the proletariat" against peasants, Cossacks, nobles, priests, intelligentsia ... Liberals need to repent for their active or tacit support for the collapse of the USSR, which plunged tens of millions of people into chaos of collapse, conflicts, poverty and lawlessness, which brought the country to its knees before the court of Western "common people". Repentance should be given to those who today continue the civil war in the forums, finding in this a substitute for "tanchiki", while weakening the mobilization of society, its readiness for creative work and a leap to the joy of enemies who need a weak Russia torn apart by contradictions and conflicts. People, repent!

    And in my opinion no one needs to repent to anyone. Neither the monarchists of the beginning of the last century, nor the Communists of the beginning and end of the twentieth century.
    1. +1
      24 December 2016 12: 05
      I think that repentance is part of the religious, INTERNAL work on oneself. We are talking about PERSONAL sins of a person! Now we see how often repentance for terrible crimes is reduced to an absurdity, a purely formal admission of a mistake --- barack abamych. Here and let repent those who contributed to the fact that the socialist savings of citizens ========= 00000000! So that ordinary citizens could not participate in the privatization of factories, newspapers, ships, as promised!
      Let the eltsinoids repent for the damage that the USSR did --- in the economy, territory, demography, and reputation around the world, and we will see!
    2. 0
      24 December 2016 20: 53
      And with this, Staryy26, I agree completely. Both those and others wanted the best for themselves and for the country, or for the country and for themselves - that's how anyone used to say. And they gave their lives for the country and at Stokhod, and near Perekop and ... in other places. We are a great country, a great people, and our mistakes are our mistakes, and why should we repent ?! And who in history has not had knee-deep blood? Everything was. Read Companenella's "City of the Sun" ... No reasonable person would want to live in it. But after all, what torments did a person do for an idea. But ... I couldn't materialize it and ... well. And the communists ... could! And in the end, they could not cope with ordinary people, not knights without fear and reproach. "We wanted the best," but Harvard did not finish, so those who finished and lost. Today the bar has been lowered and therefore ... such a fate does not threaten us.
  37. 0
    24 December 2016 20: 57
    Quote: kalibr
    Let the eltsinoids repent for the damage that the USSR did --- in the economy, territory, demography, and reputation around the world, and we will see!


    Something you, Dmitry, write some strange things. It’s not funny to himself. And who is this "we"? You and a company like you? This will be a spectacle, of course. But even my fantasy psyche refuses to imagine it!
    1. 0
      24 December 2016 21: 37
      RZHUNIMAGU! However, you are a greedy person Vyacheslav. You ascribe to yourself an old 26 quote, then mine.
      However, glad. I am sincerely grateful for using it.
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: kalibr
      Let the eltsinoids repent for the damage that the USSR did --- in the economy, territory, demography, and reputation around the world, and we will see!


      Something you, Dmitry, write some strange things. It’s not funny to himself. And who is this "we"? You and a company like you? This will be a spectacle, of course. But even my fantasy psyche refuses to imagine it!
      And you don’t have to imagine anything, you’re all about teeth ...........
      1. 0
        25 December 2016 08: 51
        You confuse quotation with attribution, although there is a difference and it is obvious.
  38. +1
    25 December 2016 07: 08
    Well, they do not want us to go there with this repentance.
    The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it, said one doctor. And not only he, the same Chubais picked up - a little more impudence (lie too)! Here are the Russian liberals and their supporters, they drive all sorts of bullshit for the amusement of the public. Likewise, the Memorial people constantly voice lies about all kinds of shooting ranges and deserts. On common sense, it seems to me more and more that the story with the test site is pure Goebbels. Everything is too neat in the official version and too many unanswered questions remain on the merits. I do not believe that four (and even 12) people could deploy such a massacre using only revolvers. And so far there are no official results of exhumation - with traces of bullet holes, carbon analysis of the remains (to make sure that this burial is not a thirteenth, say, century, and also not a gangster hideout of the nineties for the corpses of hostages), as well as shell casings, etc. - to check the weapons from which the shots were fired, after all, by and large, the Germans were there too, and the fighting was there, so who the 149 discovered people were and who killed them still needs to be established) In general, while everything is based on such a shaky foundation, this whole story evokes little trust. And now a variant of the answer to the question posed by the author - where do they want to take us. The very fact that this "project" is not being promoted as it could, or as it should be according to the law, but at the same time is not being closed, suggests that hold him like a trump card for the future. Just in case. Moreover, time is running out, people are getting stupid, manipulating it is becoming easier and after another five to ten years no one will even ask the slightest question whether the boy was. Already today it is completely uninteresting for the young what was there at all and who is to blame.
  39. 0
    25 December 2016 08: 43
    Quote: Reptiloid
    RZHUNIMAGU!


    How old are you, Dmitry? Even my first-year students do not use such turns of speech. The Russian language is already multifaceted enough to express everything to them. Verbiage here is completely useless.
  40. 0
    25 December 2016 08: 49
    Quote: Odyssey
    From the point of view of such people, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was a bad owner, greedy, it took away a lot and gave it to "cattle." But a bourgeois owner is a good one, if he has more money to serve him, and the soup is thicker

    So it is, mediocrity was received on an equal basis with those who really worked. Only now do we have the real principle of socialism: from each according to his ability, to each according to his work. But there is a lot of mediocrity ... here it is the principle of socialism and it does not poison!
  41. +1
    25 December 2016 09: 06
    Dear Sirs, maybe it’s enough to repent, it’s time to go to work. Working with the tongue is of course easier than carrying bags. But whoever wants to continue to repent, let them go to the monasteries. There is a real place for the penitents, and the country needs to work so that the country exists further. Stop whining on the past!
  42. +1
    25 December 2016 16: 22
    Again they raised the topic of "Repentance". And again those same faces (or their clones) who in the late 80s - early 90s of the last century already exaggerated the topic. It ended with the collapse of the USSR, general disbelief in the country, in the state, in ourselves. It ended with a war in the Caucasus, with the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Russian people (!), Lost opportunities for millions of people. And again we see this Jewish Congress, these people who came from nowhere, calling themselves historians and sociologists. They can't think of anything new. They are no longer even allowed into Israel, because the destructive force they carry is akin to atomic weapons.
    I know only one thing. From 1917 to 1953, people like these created an atmosphere of intolerance, denunciation, suspicion in Russia and, as a result, terror was unleashed when everything Russian, everything human, everything that did not belong to them was ruined. People wrote denunciations against each other, others arrested, others tortured, and others shot them. It’s sacrilegious today to mock the memory of the innocently killed. In general, remember this, calling for help falsified facts, archives, etc. But these mufflers have a different god, with whom they have long agreed, because they think that they will avoid retaliation and God's punishment. So, apparently, all the archives are already cleaned up. In them, indeed, these people entered falsified documents, or documents destroyed. Destroyed documents revealing their fathers and grandfathers who were engaged in bloody terror in Russia in those years. This is a fact. And when they shout about repentance, it means that they felt that they could reveal their whole gang, that soon they would have nothing to profit from. I believe that this is so that these people should not be given a tribune, the press, TV channels, they should not be poisoned by the consciousness of youth. After all, do not breed cockroaches in your home for the sake of breeding them, but fight them in all ways. If you do not fight them, the consequences will be disastrous. They must be beaten with their own weapons, or better. This is the only way to win this war.
    1. 0
      25 December 2016 17: 21
      Quote: 1536
      ... I believe that this is so that these people should not be given a tribune, the press, TV channels, they should not be poisoned by the consciousness of youth. After all, do not breed cockroaches in your home for the sake of breeding them, but fight them in all ways. If you do not fight them, the consequences will be disastrous. They must be beaten with their own weapons, or better. This is the only way to win this war ...

      And we all have such weapons.
      With the advent of the Internet, their monopoly on the delivery of information and its interpretation has been lost, and the owners of the media from the tsarist era to the present day. A vivid example of this is the US elections. Trump won largely thanks to the Internet and despite all the media that throw mud at him to this day. By the way, "our" media were for Clinton.
      Their sovereignty over human brains comes to an end.
  43. +3
    25 December 2016 17: 38
    Anything crawls into the soul after reading. Once I was in a small Lithuanian town Merkinė. There is a local museum in an abandoned Orthodox church. Its head dragged into this museum a moonshine still from the body of an aerial bomb, praising his rarity: it was the Soviet soldiers who left it here! In Merkin, at the beginning of the war, the Germans and Lithuanian collaborators shot about 1600 people. When I told the "director" of the museum about this, he was so offended! With indignation, he began to prove that only 1200 living souls had been shot. And he called me a liar. I did not come up with the mentioned figure of the dead myself, I took it from some book. Who is talking about what. For me, the shooting of one person is a tragedy, and there I got caught by some kind of "accountant". So in this article - I remembered something of that Lithuanian "accountant" ...
  44. 0
    26 December 2016 13: 08
    The cruel time was then terrible that even now in the 21st century there is enough cruelty in the world!
  45. 0
    27 December 2016 11: 33
    The so-called “Butov landfill” and other “landfills” are the purest myths invented by the liberals from the “memorial”. All lists with biographies are one hundred percent falsification, which was confirmed by the studies of some enthusiasts. Check is easy. It is necessary to hire a team of workers with an excavator and conduct random excavations on the territory of the so-called landfills. The liberals would have done this a long time ago if there was something besides ordinary soil. Sometime this whole lie will be revealed.
  46. +1
    2 January 2017 10: 32
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    "According to official data only, from August 1937 to October 1938, 20 765 people were shot here."
    Meanwhile, it is official sources, including even on the website devoted to Butov, suggest that for ALL the period from 1935 to 1953. 27 508 people were sentenced to capital punishment in Moscow and the Moscow Region.

    According to certificate 1 of the Special Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR of December 11, 1953 from 1921 to the first half of 1953. 799455 people were sentenced to VMN. This is an average of about 67 people per day. Every day, without holidays and weekends. Of these, only in 1937-38, 681692 people. On average, almost 39 people per hour, two years in a row. And from 1935 to 1953. - 738274 people. Isn't that called genocide?
    As for the Butovo training ground, about 11300 Muscovites and residents of the Moscow region were shot there. The rest are residents of other regions, as well as other states: Germany, Poland, France, the USA, Austria, Hungary, Romania, Italy, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Turkey, Japan, India, China, etc.
    19 903 people are men, 858 - women. It is also known that 69 minors were shot there. The youngest of them was 13 years old.
    Apart from a feeling of disgust, this kind of "article" does not evoke anything.
  47. 0
    2 January 2017 16: 21
    So.

    1. Until the end of the 1990s, there was no word at all about the "Butovo shooting range".

    For those who are able to think, a simple question: how could a thing of this magnitude go unnoticed, and how did it suddenly come to light 60+ years later?

    2. ALL "documents" about the Butovo test site turn out to be multiple reprints of several publications of the same author, which also do not contain any (!) Reliable materials.
    For those who are able to think, this is enough.

    3. For those who are not capable of thinking, nothing can help, nothing and no one can.
    Unless pathologists will help, I wish them to achieve this as soon as possible.

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"