Information war against Russian history

Until recently, Normanism was understood as a belief system that rests on three pillars: the first is the Scandinavian origin of the chronicles of the Varangians, the second is Rurik who was the leader of the Scandinavian troops, and not the conqueror, not the contractor (for 200 more than years the Normanists did not agree who he really was), and the third is the Scandinavian origin of the name of Russia. Synonyms for the Scandinavians among the supporters of this system, in addition to the chronicles of the Vikings, are the Normans from the Western European chronicles, who are identified as Vikings.
Recently, the representatives of the named belief system have ceased to like the word “Normanism”. Voices began to be heard that there was no “Normanism” and the talk about “Normanism”, “Norman theory”, “Normanists” are phantoms that exist only in the imagination of anti-Normanists. This is the first reason for reflection: there is no Normanism and Normanists, but anti-Normanists are not canceled.

Further, supporters of the above belief system are trying to declare it the only correct teaching. However, over the years with 200 over the years, there is still a dispute over how to interpret the “coming” of the Scandinavians to Eastern Europe. Some say: it was a conquest, aggressive expansion. Well, yes, - others argue passionately. - Why did they conquer in the dark so that they didn’t mention in any source ?! No, it was the migration of colonists from Central Sweden (it’s the Roslagen coastal zone, it’s also the Uppsala linen in Svejland, which was not in the 9th century).

The fact is that the great mission of the "Scandinavians" in Eastern Europe was not reflected in any written sources - neither in the chronicles, nor in the Western European chronicles. Therefore, in the works of representatives of “professional circles” (to say Normanists, let us continue to call things by their names, regardless of whether someone likes it or not!), The image of “Scandinavians”, caused solely by the power of their imagination, is represented by a variety of types.

Those who are beckoning the battle scenes write about “Scandinavian military units”, “Viking detachments”, “Scandinavian squads”, “Norman fighters”, “Viking movement” to the north of the East European Plain, and also about “expansion Viking. As a result of this phantom, unnoticed by any chronicler or chronicler of the “movement” in Eastern Europe, a “background of the Scandinavian presence” was allegedly created, which was quickly formed into “Norman kaganates - principalities” that littered the entire Eastern Europe, but with a Normanist eye.

The more moderate-minded Normanist authors paint smooth, tranquil scenes of the “migrations of a free peasant population, mainly from Central Sweden” to Eastern Europe, similar to those of America. Sometimes migrations are carried out as “military and trade trips of Vikings to Kievan Rus” or as “a population of Normans spread across the East Slavic lands”. True, from time to time the characteristics of the mass presence of the Normans / Vikings in Russia are confused by the reservations that “the population of the Normans ... was relatively small, but influential, seized power. She contributed to Slavic culture, history and statehood ".

In surrogate history, surrogate sources: the most irrefutable "evidence" of the founding of Scandinavians in ancient Russian history, according to the Normanists, may well be the Norman campaigns from Western European history: “The Scandinavians conquered everything in Western Europe! How naive it is to be in order to think that they did not go to conquer Eastern Europe too! ”

In my opinion, such an argument, in the language of lawyers, is invalid, since if an event occurs in one place, it is not necessary that a similar event occurred in another place. In addition, the qualitative difference between the Norman predatory campaigns in the West known to us and those blissful scenes of the actions of the “Scandinavians” in Eastern Europe, whose specimens are well known for the works of the Normanists, is striking.

These differences are undoubtedly ascertained, but they do not lead anyone to embarrassment and are parried by the statements that “the Vikings, ruthless robbers and pirates who terrified all of Western Europe with sudden raids in Eastern Europe played a different, constructive role - the role of a catalyst, which accelerated social and political processes. ” Before explaining why "ruthless robbers and pirates", having come to Eastern Europe, suddenly began to act as some kind of "constructive catalysts", "professional circles" do not condescend.

In order to get out of this confusion, you should try to bring the existing material into a certain system. To begin with, I will list in what particular supporters of the coming of the Scandinavians to Eastern Europe see their role. In a generalized form, this role, in the conviction of the Normanists, manifested itself in three areas:

1. In the formation of the Old Russian state and the creation of the Old Russian Institute of supreme princely power. It seems to the Normanists that the contract with the leader of the Viking detachments Rurik, presumably from Central Sweden, provided control of these detachments over the waterways from Ladoga to the Volga and thus laid the foundation for the emergence of early state structures, primarily the institute of central authority in the chronicle Priilmensk slovenes. According to the same authors, another Scandinavian leader Oleg captured Kiev and, thus, united the Eastern European north with the center in Ladoga and the Eastern European south with the center in Kiev, due to which the Old Russian state, known in science as Kievan Rus, was born. Let me remind in passing that between the vocation of Rurik and Oleg's conviction in Kiev, only about two decades passed! (Gorsky A.A., Dvornichenko A.Yu., Kotlyar N.F., Melnikova E.A., Puzanov V.V., Sverdlov MB, Stefanovich PS, Shinakov E.A., etc. .)

2. Together with the above-mentioned contribution of the Vikings-Norman-Vikings to the ancient Russian history, they were credited with establishing control over the Baltic-Volga trade route, the opening and functioning of which was, according to Normanists' assertions, the result of Scandinavian merchants and soldiers: “... by the middle of the 9th century. the exit from the Ladoga and Volga regions to the Volga, as well as the movement along the Volga, were firmly mastered. This is evidenced by the appearance along the way of trade and craft settlements and military camps, where the Scandinavian ethnic component is everywhere or more. ” Thanks to this, according to the Normanists, a vast territory is consolidated, in which in the middle of the 9th century. there is a first early state education "(Melnikova EA).

3. The Varang-Norman-Vikings brought the very name of Russia to the Eastern European Slavs. Norman linguists formulate it in such a way that the word Rus can be constructed from other scandas. words on the basis of * roþs-, a type of roþsmenn with the meaning “a rower, a participant of a campaign on rowing ships”, which allegedly links the origin of the name Rus with the Swedish region Roslagen and the Swedish rowers-rhodes, but through the Finnish name of Sweden Ruotsi. It was from the Finns that the Slavs allegedly recognized the name of the Swedish rowers-rhodes, and from it formed the name Rus feminine.

This is how the Normanists see the role of the Scandinavians in Russian history. The next question that needs to be answered is the question of what kind of objective prerequisites natives of the Scandinavian countries had for carrying out the mission attributed to them. The “Western Front” of the actions of the Normans, who are identified only with people from the Scandinavian countries (as far as this is true, let's talk later), is well known - there was no need for Scandinavians to participate in political genesis, in the construction of trade and craft settlements that existed before the Norman campaigns and other .

And in Eastern Europe, the Scandinavians are credited with a fundamental (or significant, as some cautious Normanists stipulate) role in the process of political evolution and in capital-intensive projects to create a network of craft-trading and political centers, i.e. practically - the foundation of urban culture.

Since the Bertinsky annals and the Finnish name of Sweden Ruotsi firmly tie the Normanists to Sweden, therefore we will consider the level of the sociopolitical evolution of the main areas of the future Sweden in the early medieval period. These were the areas of the getot and the Sveev - ethnic groups, often defined as tribes and tribal associations in the territory of medieval Sweden.

The name Sweden comes from the Sveev name: Svea rike or the Kingdom of Sveev. The name of the city is traced in the names of such historical regions as Westergötland with the city of Gothenburg and Östergötland with the main city of Linköping. Svei and gyotas were the main ethnosocial subjects in the process of formation of the state in Sweden. How is this process characterized in science?

According to the works of the Swedish medievalists, the creation of Swedish statehood was protracted, long-lasting, the signs of the early state are revealed no earlier than the second half of the 13th - early 14th centuries. The contemporary researcher of the problems of the Swedish socio-political genesis T. Lindquist, stipulating that the design of statehood includes such a criterion as the creation of “territory under the authority of a single political leadership”, notes that only from the second half of the 13th century. The royal power in Sweden began to speak “as a form of a relatively thin political organization, as a state power.

It was during this period that privileged noble estates grew up with precisely defined rights and obligations to serve in favor of the king and society. The codification and writing of laws, as well as the streamlining of political institutions, are typical of this period. At the turn of the XIII-XIV centuries. the royal power and the young classes of clergy and secular nobility were state power.

Late 13th century was the end of that specific and long historical process of social transformations characteristic of Sweden in that period, which, according to traditional terminology, can be called as transitional from the Viking period to the early medieval period ”(Lindqvist Th. Plundring, skatter och den feodala statens framväxt. Organisatoriska tendenser i Sverige under övergången från vikingatid till tidig medeltid. Uppsala, 1995. S. 4-5, 10-11). The Viking history in Swedish history is the period 800-1050, followed by the Medieval period 1050-1389.

T. Lindquist emphasizes not only the late formation of a Swedish state, but also its secondary nature: “... It arose later on in many states in Europe and even in Scandinavia. A number of phenomena and ideas were exogenous: they were “introduced” from the outside. The ideas about the meaning and functions of royal power, the rules and rituals for the bearers of the new state power were introduced from the side ”, i.e. from the European continent (Ibid.)

He develops these same views in one of his works, written jointly with Maria Schöberg. Based on the Life of St. Ansgar, the Bishop of Hamburg and the propagator of Christianity in Northern Germany, Denmark and Sweden, who visited 830 with his mission in Birka and captured some of the features of social and political relations among the sveev, T. Lindquist wrote that the territory of Sveev consisted of a number of small possessions that did not have a certain structure or hierarchy, the power of the king was limited to the national assembly; no centralized or supreme royal power existed, which is why it is impossible to determine the degree of its influence on the life of society. About the same picture, T. Lindquist stresses, draws to us and the chronicler Adam of Bremen in 1070 after more than 200 years (Lindkvist Th., Sjöberg M. Det svenska samhället. 800 - 1720. Klerkernas och adelns tid. Studenttextur. Schil. Tel.. .23-33).

The historian Dick Harrison summed up the outcome of the traditional quest for the beginnings of Swedish political genesis:

“... at Jordan, Cassiodorus and Procopius ... created an image of Scandinavia, characterized by the presence of many small political units ... it is absolutely impossible to reconstruct the political boundaries of regions in the Wendel or Viking periods, based on the names found in sources of the XIII-XIV centuries. ... The area, which in Swedish historiography usually finds itself at the center of arguments about power and the kingdom in the pre-Christian era, is Upland ... In the period of great power in the 17th century, or in the period of development of nationalist tendencies in the 19th century. Upland was regarded as the cradle of Swedish statehood, and the kings from the Saga of the Ingling were crowned as the all-Swedish ancient monarchs ...

Today, science has cast aside these misconceptions as an anachronism and sent them to the dustbin of history, although from time to time they appear in tourist brochures or in outdated historical reviews. ”(Harrison D. Sveriges historia. 600-1350. Stockholm, 2009. S. 26- 36).

So, the creation of statehood in Sweden, which at least implies a shift from autonomous possessions or peasant communities towards the supercommunal organization and the unification of the territory under the rule of one ruler (king, prince), the creation of the institution of supreme power, took about 300 years The early features of this process appeared in the first half of the eleventh century. or 200 years after Rurik. And for many centuries before, counting from the 9th century, the territory of the future Sweden was a conglomeration of small possessions, none of which could nominate a leader who would subordinate these lands to his power.

Comments

[Cartalon]

For me, Rurik is Rurik of Jutland, and the Swedes obviously have nothing to do with; it’s absurd to deny the influence of the Varangians in Russia until the middle of the eleventh century, well, the Rus tribe is clearly not Slavs.

[Greydog]

In the Leningrad region there is a town Staraya Rusa, which is older than Rurik. In the Baltic Sea there is the island of Rügen, which was once inhabited by "Slavic-speaking" tribes, culturally very close to the Vikings. Traces of a similar culture are traced from the Volga to the Baltic States (it was spread in this direction). And also - "Slavonic" (Baltic group of languages). No "Normanist" can explain how to make the Swedish word "konung" (military leader) from the ancient Germanic word "kun" (clan). As well as suggesting a different origin of this term.

In general, Russia, of course, is not Slavs (it is not for nothing that the word "thief" has, by no means, a friendly meaning). But the Normans are also out of business here. They are just younger.

[Caretaker]

In the Leningrad region there is the town of Staraya Rusa, which is ancient Rurik ...

Staraya Russa (two "s") is a city in the Novgorod region.
Officially, Staraya Russa is younger than Novgorod (and Rurik), but the settlement is quite possibly much older, because In this area there are several mineral springs, salt extraction sites.

... the island of Rügen, which was once inhabited by "Slavic-speaking" tribes, culturally very close to the Vikings.

Not "Slavic-speaking", but simply - the Slavs. However, like most of the southern coast of the Baltic Sea. They have nothing to do with the Vikings, but they could well be called "Varangians".

... it's not for nothing that the word "thief" has, by no means, a friendly meaning ..

You are absolutely right.
ВаРяГ, ВоРоГ, BPаГ
VOR is an armed robber, in the primary sense of the word, and not a pickpocket or a householder at all.

[Greydog]

The culture of "people with axes", which served as the basis for the Vorogs, and then the Vikings, has long and firmly been associated with the languages ​​of the Baltic group. And it is being tracked from somewhere in the upper reaches of the Volga. It was just that the northern Slavs assimilated it on the Central Russian plain.

So-that - "Slavonic". "Related" to the Slavs through Sarmat.

[Caretaker]

In the modern world, Russian speakers are all constantly in Russian, outside of Russia.
In your case, "Slavic-speaking" are those who speak Slavic languages ​​outside of their residence.
Those whom you called "Balts" are more appropriate to call "kindred to the Slavs"
(if you accept your version and terminology).

[Operator]

The genotype of Lithuanians and Latvians is identical - 40% of the Aryan haplogroup R1a and 40% of the Ugrofin N1c1. Those. they are half Slavs and half ugrophinous, while they also speak a hybrid language with a predominance of Sanskrit.

The Estonian genotype includes equal shares of the Aryan R1a, the Celtic R1b and the Ugrofin N1c1. They speak Finnish.

[Greydog]

You have not read my comments carefully. Slavs and Balts (not to be confused with the Balts) - "relatives" through the Sarmatians. Haplogroup - general. Languages - similar. culture - various. The Baltic one is 500 years old and originated far north.
Now - the Eastern Slavs, who assimilated the Balts and the Finno-Ugric peoples, became closer in language to the Balts who assimilated the Finno-Ugric peoples.
Southern Slavs did not come into contact with the Balts. Western - came into contact with the Balts already on the Baltic coast. And they were subordinate to them.

[Operator]

The arrival of the first of two Baltic ancestors, the Aryans, to Europe took place 12000 years ago, the second of the two ancestors of the Baltic Finns came to Europe 3000 years ago.

In the part of Lithuanians and Latvians, the former assimilated the latter; in the part of Estonians, the latter assimilated the former.

The Western Slavs (with the exception of the Rus and the Pomeranians) did not contact the Ugro-Finns and the Balts from the word in general. The Western Slavs (with the exception of Poles, Pomeranians, Czechs, Moravians and Slovaks) were assimilated by the Celts.

Southern Slavs:
- Slovenes, Bosnians, Croats and Serbs - these are the southern Illyrians assimilated by the Slavs (carriers of the haplogroup I2);
- Macedonians and Bulgarians are Hamites assimilated by the Slavs (carriers of the E1 haplogroup).

[excomandante]

Wild nonsense about "haplogroups" is Klesovsky nonsense. Whether it is worth replicating it - everyone decides for himself.

[excomandante]

Yes, please, you like to believe in it - go ahead, I have something to do with it, I presented another version, which is also quite scientific.

[excomandante]

It is absurd to write about any influence of the Scandinavians on Russia. Poor thing, at least elementary facts from history need to know, and not just Ren-TV to be guided.

[Gorinich]

As categorically and with a finger to the sky. In order to really answer the questions of education in Russia, you need to know some answers.
1. Who "invited" Rurik.
2. Why have you been invited?
3. Invited benefit
4. Benefit for invitations
5. WHY invited Rurik.
6. What are the prerequisites for inviting.
7. WHO gave money for the whole operation.
The last question draws out such a layer of intrigue that turns over all ideas about that time and the history of the formation of Russia. He who pays money orders music :)

[excomandante]

Poor woman. I understand the wild all-Ukrainian "love" for Rurik, but sometimes it is desirable to look into history textbooks, clone ...

[Gorinich]

What does Ukraine have to do with it? If you know the story, then answer yourself the question of who were the kindred nations at that time? Why, for example, does the Bulgarian language differ from Russian? It is impossible to know the history of Russia without the history of Khazaria. Will you enter the history of Khazaria? Apparently not ...

[Gorinich]

Any refusal of knowledge leads to narrow-minded dogmatism;)

[Vend]

Quote: Cartalon

For me, Rurik is Rurik of Jutland, and the Swedes obviously have nothing to do with; it’s absurd to deny the influence of the Varangians in Russia until the middle of the eleventh century, well, the Rus tribe is clearly not Slavs.

Then answer some questions:
What language did he speak with Slavic tribes?
Why did he get a large territory in the board. returns to Europe to get a small vassal flax in possession?
Why does Rurik become a vassal if he is a ruler in Russia?
Well, and so on?

[excomandante]

This is just a standard version of Chivilikhin, not proven by anything and not refuted by anything. And so yes, the version. as a version, it has a right to life.

[Basil50]

Well, the fact that the European savages slaughtered each other for a rather long time, in the holy confidence of the right of the strong, is well known. It’s only surprising that today Europe and Europeans are represented as the basis of human civilization. It was always surprising to me that in European languages ​​it is often impossible * to * calculate * the origin of a given word or concept. The most famous of these words is the word STEEL. In all European languages ​​it is consonant and differs only in * rules * of pronunciation. But in RUSSIAN it means * become *, i.e. what has become.
After the election of Romanov to the kings, they began to search for * the support of the throne * and found in European mercenaries who were ready for anything, it was from these mercenaries that they sent tales about the * birthright * of Europeans. It acquired the most extreme forms in England and Germany in the twentieth century.

[excomandante]

Europe and Europeans (Caucasians, they are Indo-Europeans. They are Arias) are truly the founders of human civilization. Of course, it’s fashionable now, due to the prevalence of tolerasty and other political correctness, to declare either Arabs or Indians as the founders of civilization, Australoids, Mongols, Andaman Aborigines or Negroes will soon be announced. It is the Europeans who are the creators of applied science and scientific and technological progress, to deny this is to ignore historical facts. Evilly cursing Europe is now a popular activity, but it is not worth it to get insane.

[Basil50]

. In Western Europe, masterfully appropriated any achievement of science and culture. That's just the fundamental sciences originated and developed in Asia, until the feral followers of Islam began to destroy scientists and cultural achievements.
Europeans began to devote time and money to science only after robbing the colonies. And Western Europe is not populated by descendants of the Aryans and Indo-Europeans. Wild tribes settled in Europe destroyed everything that was before them, * the church began to civilize * savages and today's * Western culture * is the result of the long work of the Catholic Church, which itself appointed itself the only representative of Christ on earth.

[excomandante]

That's what I'm talking about. A typical stream of politically correct, tolerant consciousness, largely shaped by the notorious "proletarian internationalism". And there are many characters in "ASIA" comparable to Leonardo da Vinci and Newton? The popular lies about wildly progressive Asia are contradicted by history. All civilizations, except the Christian one, are static and practically incapable of development. Read at least Toynbee or Danilevsky than to mechanically repeat tolerant and politically correct nonsense. When some Biruni-Khorezmi-Ibn Sina stick out in the foreground, I immediately remember my excursion to Lithuania (back in the USSR), when the local guide was filled with a nightingale about the worldwide significance of the superpoet Churlionis))). This is the level of the Asian "great scientists" who succeeded only in compiling the works of ancient scientists, naturally, Europeans. You still have to push something about the blacks. like a great black civilization destroyed by white savages))) Not literally (to look for laziness) I will quote Professor Burovsky - "no one prevented the same Australian aborigines from building frigates, casting cannons, sailing to England and directing their vents to the naked-assed British." It's time to get rid of politically correct myths and evaluate the historical process soberly, based on real facts, and not on ideologized nonsense about cute and highly cultured Asian-Negro-Arabica))) And the savages were really civilized, your quotes are ridiculous and inappropriate. Or are you seriously suggesting that if it were not for the evil colonialists (English-Russian-French), then now the Bantu would build spaceships, and the Chukchi would develop the latest computer technologies? And some Uzbeks or Hindi would probably have erected bases on Mars, if not on the planets of other star systems)))) Wild hatred of their own race and their civilization looks, to put it mildly, extremely stupid.

[V.ic]

Quote: excomandante

And there are many characters in "ASIA" that are comparable at least to Leonardo da Vinci and Newton?

Abu Ali Hussein ibn-Abdallah ibn-Ali ibn-Sina (Latinized - Avicenna) (Avicenna) (c. 980 - 1037), Abu Raikhan Beruni (Biruni; Abu Rayhan Muhammad Ibn Ahmad al-Biruni) (973-1048) .. Is this an empty phrase for you? From you only a bunch of farts!

[excomandante]

Without stupid insults in any way ?! Since there are no clear arguments ... Avicenna is not a great scientist, but a compiler of the works of ancient physicians. Yes, the Arabs didn’t just carve out the Hellenistic East, they saved some of the achievements of ancient civilization with some fright. The whole abu-ali !!! Crazy with puppy delight! Where so Pirogov or Pavlov, Kurchatov or Mendeleev to abu-ali))) Do not disgrace, powerlessly farting teenager ...

[Operator]

The descendants of the Aryans (R1a) among Europeans are exclusively Slavs, they are the only Indo-Europeans in the world - i.e. people who settled and spread their culture at the same time in Europe and India.

The Celts are carriers of the European non-Aryan haplogroup R1b, and they have never migrated to India. Their language is a hybrid of their native (Basque) and Sanskrit - the result of the assimilation of the Celts by the Cimmerians in the 1 millennium BC.

[excomandante]

I recalled that recently Kulikov, who had given a hint about European civilization, was sent a text message to the FM that they had created the science of the Arabs))) Kulikov laughed tactfully at the deb.il. Alas, deb.ily - a common tribe.

[antivirus]

Surprising is the absence of chronicles by Charlemagne and others.
did the neighbors know each other? what did you record? Byzantines? Persians? In China there are "memories" of merchants?

[inkass_98]

There are a lot of memories, and they are interpreted as they like the next deviation of pseudo-historical thought.
The truth is that the influence of the Scandinavians was undeniable, despite the fact that the general Slavic tradition is traced throughout the history of Russia. Anyone who wants to fight - only in PM, I will not butt on the site.

[Caretaker]

Quote: inkass_98

The truth is that the influence of the Scandinavians was undeniable, despite the fact that the general Slavic tradition is traced throughout the history of Russia.

Please clarify the "impact" on what?

[inkass_98]

Yes, even in the Russian language and weapons of Russian squads. You haven’t been to Staraya Russa, don’t you know the name of the oldest street in the city? Varyazhskaya, however. Names Olga, Oleg are not of the Scandinavian sense? Olgerd as if echoes. And then we will argue about the influence of the Scandinavians on the Rus?

[Operator]

None of Rurikovich bore the names Helg, Helga, Olgerd and other Scandinavian notions.

The regent under Igor, the son of Rurik, was named Oleg.

[Caretaker]

Quote: inkass_98

... Yes, at least in the Russian language and weapons of Russian squads. You haven’t been to Staraya Russa, don’t you know the name of the oldest street in the city? Varyazhskaya, however. Names Olga, Oleg are not of the Scandinavian sense? Algerd as if echoes. And then we will argue about the influence of the Scandinavians on the Rus?

You probably mixed up with Staraya Ladoga, there really is Varyazhskaya street.

Toponymy is generally a strange thing. We call the Gulf of Finland "Finnish", but for some reason the Finns call their country Suomi.
I hope you do not classify the "German settlement" in Moscow as a "borrowing" into the Russian language?

A few "Varangian streets" and a few names is not a sufficient list to seriously talk about "influence". In any case, nothing more than the mutual influence of other peoples living in the neighborhood.

[antivirus]

I agree . The movement of peoples (recently an exchange of views with Israel on the fate of Israel and "sickles over the Kremlin") was and is now.
From Malmo or Bolgar, but converged, mixed. a new religion is a new dialect, not 10-30 years, but 200-300 years before Rurik and some write about the "old" roots. dr "about a new" community - this is already a discrepancy, about one ethnic group, people

[excomandante]

Naturally, there was no influence of the Scandinavians. Simply by virtue of the fact that Scandinavia was at a lower level of development than Russia. And the "personal" has nothing to do with it. There are elementary well-known facts, "butting" on which is simply naive.

[midshipman]

And I remember an incident at school. The teacher explains that God created man on the fifth day. Vova raises his hand, "What do you want, Vova?" Vova got up and said that his dad told him that man came from a monkey (not from Obama, of course). "Sit down Vova": the teacher continued. "The history of your family, Vova, is not understood in class today." I have the honor.

[Dekabrist]

If the VO site wants to publish materials on such topics, the advice is to find a worthy author. Or in the heading "Opinions" such articles should be published.

[avt]

Quote: Dekabrist

If the VO site wants to publish materials on such topics, advice - find a worthy author.

Does the author ignore the facts about the origin of everyone and everything from the Great Dukes and from Taras Adamchuk personally? Well, the author’s unworthiness is of course in the absence of a description of Bebik's imperishable works. This is clear.

Quote: Dekabrist

"Opinions" should publish such articles.

Better to introduce a new rubric - "Anathema".

[Dekabrist]

If a visitor to the forum has met a troll on him, then the best thing he can do is ignore him.

[avt]

Quote: Dekabrist

If a visitor to the forum has met a troll on him, then the best thing he can do is ignore him.

He thought, and crying, he immediately began to poke the answer.

[excomandante]

Debatable. The answer is usually not written specifically for the troll (it’s useless to convince the troll to persuade it) it is useless to read the whole text with an alternative, reasoned point of view.

[victorrat]

One thing is clear that Norman theory is complete nonsense. This theory is invented from beginning to end. There were no statists among the Vikings. These were barbarians and bandits capable of only murder and robbery. No archaeological finds confirm the existence of the culture of the Vikings, so that they reach the level of the Slavs. A find near Voronezh of a settlement of 35 000 age confirms that there lived tribes of high culture. Yes, and Old Ladoga itself shows that the Finno-Ugric tribes mixed with the Slavs. The unique burial ground on the shore of the Warm Gulf of Lake Peipsi also clearly shows the crowding out of the Finno-Ugric tribes by the Slavs in the 10 century. The very notion of Varangians has nothing to do with the Normans. Which is confirmed by academician Zaliznyak.
Archaeological findings and findings of geneticists show the presence of a single Slavic gene throughout Russia. And not only Russia. Europe, India. There was no invasion of the Mongols.
Prophetic Oleg began his campaign to the Tsar City with a new unification of Russia. And do not write nonsense about some Kievan Rus, which never existed. This term was invented by the historian Solovyov in the 19 century.
The temporary capital of Russia, commanded by Novgorod, moved to Vladimir, and then constantly to Moscow.

[Kenneth]

How would you write nonsense. Among the Vikings, statists were. They converted the map of Europe. They are so to speak experts and managers steered in many European countries
And it’s nothing strange that Gardarik also used their services.

[Andrey Zh]

Thank! Good point.

[V.ic]

Quote: Kenneth

And it’s nothing strange that Gardarik also used their services.

And why didn't “they” call their homeland “Gardarika”? This only means that the burrows // nurses have just come out of the dugouts!

[excomandante]

Can you have at least one example of a Viking - "statist"? Or, the more monstrous the lie, the faster it will be believed?

[Caretaker]

Quote: victorrat

Staraya Ladoga itself shows that the Finno-Ugric tribes mixed with the Slavs. The unique burial ground on the shore of the Warm Gulf of Lake Peipsi also clearly shows the crowding out of the Finno-Ugric tribes by the Slavs in the 10th century.

2 kilometers upstream located Lyubshan fortress, more ancient than Staraya Ladoga Slavic settlement.
Numerous burials characteristic of the Slavs were found on both banks of Lake Peipsi (Warm), and along the Great River. By the way, they’re dated not by 10, but by earlier centuries,
Moreover, unlike the sources of Volkhov, they are located at a distance of tens of kilometers from the coast, i.e. occupy most of the pool.

[excomandante]

I would have your worries. At the age of 18 I was interested in the same "facts". But, of course, accept my compliments - you were not too lazy to carry out the work and draw conclusions. Thank you, you will save someone from the same perversion.

[njvlin]

Well, what's wrong with the fact that there were once VIKINGS on the throne of Russia? They went on long campaigns, mastered new territories (including Greenland and America). And who interfered with them (red-haired Danes, etc.) gave in the teeth. Unlike the Yankees (the European rabble of criminals), they did not exterminate the indigenous population. Well, a criminal rabble came to America, the result: the Indians were practically exterminated (they brought blacks slaves); for 200 years, all this rabble degenerated into pederasts and lesbians (see the percentage of the State Department and the leadership of the United States); all scientific and technical progress is made by the purchased BRAINS. And what do they think that the whole world will endure it endlessly? "Great Durshlaga" -that is the USA. Even California (a bunch of drug addicts) decided to secede. The question is where ?? To the former Russian-Spanish colony? Well then, welcome. We will beat all the nonsense out of you!

[parusnik]

There are many arguments for and against the Norman theory, and this concept itself has long since turned from a purely scientific into a political one. Supporters and opponents of this theory proceed from the same data, they simply interpret them differently. The fact of Rurik's invitation can be interpreted in the sense that he was already summoned to the ready throne, and the very name of this legendary prince is not necessarily of Scandinavian origin. Norman and anti-Norman theories today agree that a certain external force played a very noticeable role in the process of creating the ancient Russian state. Such a social institution as "the state" cannot simply be taken and transferred to someone else's soil; certain prerequisites must be formed for its emergence. Almost everything suggests that our ancestors already had such prerequisites by the XNUMXth century.

[Boris55]

Quote: parusnik

There are a lot of arguments for and against the Norman theory, and this concept itself from a purely scientific one has long turned into a political one ...

The past today is always a policy that determines the future. The Norman theory is defended by the Westerners - it is embedded in the framework of their idea of ​​the inferiority of the Slavs.

Quote: parusnik

Norman and anti-Norman theory today are in agreement that a certain external force played a very noticeable role in the process of creating the Old Russian state.

States have an apparatus of minority violence over the majority.
They lived peacefully in Russia. Sown - plowed. Then the civilizers pinned down and built everyone ...

[parusnik]

They lived peacefully in Russia. Sown - plowed. Then the civilizers pinned down and built everyone ...

... So, in your opinion, Oleg took the old Russian tribes in vain to unite?

[V.ic]

Quote: Boris55

Then the civilizers pinned

"Pennine Alps" on the map you provided ... The name is quite impressive ... Isn't it from the word "pénis"? I am glad about the practical neighborhood of Greece with Germany, from whom, it turns out, the Alemanni borrowed the rudiments of culture!

[Boris55]

Quote: parusnik

Such a social institution as a "state" cannot simply be taken and transferred to someone else's soil; certain prerequisites must be formed for its emergence. Almost everything suggests that our ancestors already had such prerequisites by the XNUMXth century.

Can wild tribes conquer civilized? Judging by the fact that the United States is wetting all non-civilized, and not vice versa - the answer suggests itself. Since scattered hordes, as pseudo-historians assure us, managed to defeat the Roman Empire? and before that the army of Macedon, and before that Cyrus, Darius? So there was something that united people without uniting people on the basis of states ...

[parusnik]

Boris55

Since scattered hordes, as pseudo-historians assure us, managed to defeat the Roman Empire? and before that the army of Macedon, and before this Cyrus, Darius? So there was something that united people without uniting people according to the principle of states ...

..
1. The Hordes were not fragmented, they were powerful tribal unions. They defeated the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern one resisted. The Western one was in a political, military, economic crisis. What was not observed in the Eastern.
2. What hordes did Macedon fight with, Darius ..?

[Cartalon]

How with which: \ Have you forgotten Gog and Magog?

[V.ic]

Quote: Cartalon

with which: \ Have you forgotten Gog and Magog?

Cite about the Euro-Pace tori you mentioned in the works, unless of course it is difficult or earlier, cite something from the Jordan!

[Boris55]

Quote: parusnik

The hordes were not scattered; they were powerful tribal alliances.

And then civilizers came, built a pyramid of violent power and called it the state ...

Quote: parusnik

What hordes did Macedon fight with, Darius ..?

What "hordes" have broken them and what is science silent about? Yes, all the same - Slavs, Armats and many more names given by modern historical "science" denoting the same inhabitants of the north so that it would not occur to us that they are one and the same people ...

[ver_]

..Alexander of Macedon = Alexander Nevsky ... Guy Julius Caesar = George Yuri Dolgoruky - Caesar = firstborn ..
Historians wrote off the stories of their countries from the history of Russia ..
Khan Batuy (Holy Father) = John Kalita (caliph) gave a label on reigning to the king of France and founded the Vatican ..
This is - First Rome ..

[excomandante]

How did Batu conquer Russia? How did the negroes "liberate" Haiti? Is not a fact. A huge, wildly huge crowd of Asians or Negroes (or other savages) scatters an arbitrarily magnificent squad, if it is very small. Sometimes in Alaska we were beaten by the ears, and they beat us so much that we had to send special detachments to free the captured Russians. Then naturally. won, and the opposite happened in a sudden attack by "peaceful aliens".

[Boris55]

Quote: excomandante

And how did Batu conquer Russia?

Batu did not conquer Russia. He freed his land from adherents of building a society on the principle of states.
Batu did not attach importance to ideological power, and when the thoughts of most people were captured by the new ideology (the biblical concept - Christianity) - we lost ...

[Boris55]

Quote: excomandante

I haven’t seen such dashing idiocy for a long time!

Do you probably believe in the Tatar-Mongol yoke? And the fact that only the Jews survived the flood? And the fact that they came to Russia for four hundred years of insemination of the natives received Russian?

Bible: "So kill all the male children, and all the women who know the husband in the male bed, kill; and all the female children who did not know the male bed, leave alive for yourself" (Numbers 31: 17-18).

[Boris55]

Quote: excomandante

You will not believe ..... I know the scientific history ...

Your trouble is that you are a slave to those very tales that do not go beyond the biblical view of the world that they put into your head ...
To tell you that the Germans wrote Russian stories to us with great difficulty, that Petruha destroyed all the annals and stole 5508 years, that the new faith occupied the old churches and cleaned up everything there and that Nestor wrote his an essay in three different versions 100 years ago - I won’t, you know all that ...

[Senior manager]

I support. The Slavs had a practice of inviting the prince, it is correctly said, to a ready-made managerial structure.

[Operator]

According to legend, Rurik, the leader of the West Slavic tribe of Rus, was invited by his grandfather Gostomysl, the leader of the East Slavic tribe of Slovenes, whose daughter Umila was the mother of Rurik.

Gostomysl did not have sons, so I had to invite my grandson to transfer power.

Rurik sailed to Ladoga with his tribe Rus, who migrated from the region of Porusie (the current Kaliningrad region of Russia), where it was surrounded by more numerous Baltic tribes.

[ver_]

... Khan John Rurik Varyag Trojan .. - Grandson of Gostomysl ..
Khan - a title indicating belonging to the imperial Family ..
John is the name
Rurik -invited
Varangian Troyanets - a native of Troy (the capital of the empire - destroyed as a result of vassal crusades for power in the empire after the Emperor was crucified as a result of a palace coup ..)

[Caretaker]

Quote: Operator

According to legend, Rurik, the leader of the West Slavic tribe of Rus, was invited by his grandfather Gostomysl, the leader of the East Slavic tribe of Slovenes, whose daughter Umila was the mother of Rurik.

Gostomysl did not have sons, so I had to invite my grandson to transfer power.

Rurik sailed to Ladoga with his tribe Rus, who migrated from the region of Porusie (the current Kaliningrad region of Russia), where it was surrounded by more numerous Baltic tribes.

Great comment.
Though. I do not agree with some statements.
The Slavs on the southern coast of the Baltic were not surrounded by "more numerous Baltic tribes." In the 9th century, rather the opposite. And not all the tribe brought Rurik, probably not even the whole clan.

[Operator]

The Russian tribe is a special case, Russia is part of much more numerous West Slavic tribes (descendants of the Wends). Russia migrated in the 5th century AD from the west (south of Ireland) in the opposite direction east to the region of Porusia, inhabited by the Baltic.

In this region, Russia was in a clear minority, which necessitated migration even further east to the Ladoga region, inhabited by related slovenia. Guromysl's invitation to Rurik was a good occasion for the resettlement of the entire tribe.

At the same time, the tribal sign of a particular tribe was not a falcon, but a horseman with a spear, which was later reproduced on the arms of the Rurikovich, and then on coins - kopeks. From the moment Christianity was adopted, the tribal sign of the Rurikovich began to be identified with George the Victorious.

That which is erroneously considered the generic sign of the Rurikovich in the form of a falling falcon and reproduced in the coat of arms of the state of Ukraine, is a Khazar tribal sign of the trident - tamga.

[excomandante]

It’s good when someone lies cheerfully and comfortably (c) Vasily Terkin. Twardowski.

[Greydog]

For example, the Nevsky threshold interfered with the Vikings. Well, the "drakars" did not pass there. There the boats sometimes fought.

[Caretaker]

Quote: GreyDog

For example, the Nevsky threshold interfered with the Vikings. Well, the "drakars" did not pass there. There the boats sometimes fought.

The ship passage at the end of the first millennium passed through the Vuoksa system.
The Vikings did not have to use "drakkars", they had smaller ships.
The "small" trials will pass, so who will allow them?

[Fagelov]

There is a version: Rurik originally reigned in Ilmen town, where salt was VAR. Hence the Varyagi. (A similar word in meaning is VARYazhka, i.e. pot holder). Salt brought quite a large income and Ilmen town flourished. But, Rurik, with a relatively small population of the subordinate town, it was difficult to recruit a decent squad. The availability of money made it possible to hire Normans for the service. Rurik is married to Ulyba, the daughter of a Novgorod headman. When the Novgorodians, after another turmoil, began to look for a prince, Gostomysl suggested inviting Rurik, his son-in-law. And that was done. Rurik arrived in Novgorod with the "brothers" Sinechus and Truvor. In fact, as Count Ignatiev established, in Swedish it meant "Court and Druzhina". The warriors who arrived with Rurik spoke an incomprehensible language. The name of the Varyags was transferred to the foreigners, which began to denote all foreigners, thus losing its original meaning.
The version was published, if my memory serves me, in the journal "Questions of history". For me personally, this version is very nice. and leaves no trace of the Norman theory of the origin of power in Russia.

[Kenneth]

Going from Nemets, three brothers with all kindreds are washable: Rurik, Sineus, Trivor. And the speed of Rurik elder is in Novgorod, and Sineus elder is quick on Belosere, and Trivor is in Izborets

[Greydog]

"Germans" in that period were any people who spoke a language incomprehensible to the Slavs. So, the above quote only testifies to the fact that foreigners were invited to the role of elders.

[Stanislas]

Quote: GreyDog

foreigners were invited to the role of elders.

Imagine, there came a whole clan with the squads, which became the ruling. Have they been selected among the Vikings for a good knowledge of Slavic languages? The ability to study them? Where are the crowds of interpreters? Where are the traces of a whole shaft of Germanic words that would inevitably appear in the Old Russian language from the time of Rurik? Nothing like this. Here, the American advisers did not stay long, so all the shops immediately became shops, managers of all links became managers, etc. And everything is calm there, as if there were no coming of any Vikings-Scandinavians. Maybe they really weren’t? It would be strange to call the language Russian in such a situation if it was not originally Slavic, but Germanic.

[Greydog]

And where did you get the idea that you need to look for "old Germanic" words? Maybe - Khazar? Or are they Bulgarian? Also - "Germans" (in the sense - foreigners). Again - the Balts, who "sparred" in almost pure Sanskrit (and they were also "Germans" for the Ladians, who spoke a mixture of Slavic and Finno-Ugric).
There are traces of any of the listed languages ​​in Russian. And ancient enough to "tie" them to Rurik. Or - not "tie". Still, they "sat" on the trade route. You never know where they "picked up"?

[Stanislas]

Quote: GreyDog

Maybe - Khazar? Or Bulgarian?

Netuti. Why look for them if they shoot any Slavic in the ear ...

[Greydog]

And what about the word "end", which is of Khazar origin and came to Russia in the meaning of "small veche" precisely through Novgorod?
Or, say, a Bulgar "chest"? And the "old crow" ("old hag")?

[Stanislas]

Quote: GreyDog

And what about the word "end", which has Khazar origin and came to Russia in the meaning of "small veche"

Killer argument There is another option: this isconbut Russian (Slavic) vocabulary. Root con means limit. There is a meaning of the beginning (primordially, from time immemorial), there is a meaning of the end. I can even give a link to Fasmer’s Etymological Dictionary of Russian. And where did you find your Khazar end? Zadornov seems to only find Slavic roots everywhere ... I’m lost in conjecture.

[V.ic]

Quote: Kenneth

Come on from ... in Izborets

Is it weak in Old Slavonic?

[Operator]

Varangians - from the Scandinavian væringjar (vâr - oath, giar - warrior), professional hired warriors from Denmark, Norway and Sweden, who swore to serve those who pay. We were hired for service in Byzantium, in Russia and in the German states.

The Varangians differed from the Vikings (from the Scandinavian vikja - to leave) - free hunters who, at their own expense, carried out predatory raids on the coastal areas of the Baltic, Northern and Mediterranean seas.

[Greydog]

And "vorogi" - from what word? Does it bother you that "o" - "a" is the difference in pronunciation between different dialects of the Russian language?

[Caretaker]

Quote: Operator

Varangians - from the Scandinavian væringjar (vâr - oath, giar - warrior), professional hired warriors from Denmark, Norway and Sweden, who swore to serve those who pay.

Quote: GreyDog

And "vorogi" - from what word? Does it bother you that "o" - "a" is the difference in pronunciation between different dialects of the Russian language?

So all from the same.
VOR - in the original sense вооруженный the robber.

VaRaG, VORoG, VRaG

[Greydog]

Rather - a "thief" from a "thief". In the 15th century, an armed robber - "thief". And the "thief", possibly, from the original trade (ambush with a gate - "vorogi" - thieves).

[excomandante]

This is from a series of "Zadornovskaya etymology"))) In fact, the Rurik gang became famous for ineradicable theft, therefore they were contemptuously called "thieves", which eventually transformed into "Varangians", exactly the same version, exactly the same justified, exactly the same stupid ...

[Caretaker]

Quote: Fagelov

There is a version. Rurik originally reigned in the town of Ilmen, where VARili salt. Hence VARYAGI. (The word VARyazhka, i.e. a tack) is close in meaning. Salt brought a fairly large income and Ilmen town flourished.

Salt was cooked in the area of ​​Staraya Russa, there are now several mineral springs and a balneological resort. Perhaps, in those days, the coast of Ilmen was somewhat south, hence the name.

[excomandante]

Do not make me laugh. At Zadornov it turns out more successfully.

[Operator]

The history of the Scandinavians (Danes-Danes, Norwegians-Normans and Swedes-Swedes) of the 8th-12th centuries is completely covered in Scandinavian sagas and German chronicles.

The Scandinavian sagas and German chronicles describe the life of the Danish king Rorik of Jutland, who ruled from 826 until his death in 882. There are no other Rorik, Rurik or Rurik in the Scandinavian and German written sources.

In no saga / chronicle is there anything about the campaign of the Scandinavians east with the conquest of the Eastern Slavs and the formation of a state on their lands, an order of magnitude larger than the whole of Scandinavia. In no saga / chronicle there is any mention of Rurik, Truvor and Sineus - three brothers and leaders of any Scandinavian tribe. There is also no mention of any Scandinavian tribe Rus.

The only written source on the existence of these people is the 12th century Russian chronicle called The Tale of Bygone Years, compiled by the monks of the Kiev Pechersk Monastery under the guidance of the monk Nestor based on earlier chronicles that have not survived to this day.

The Tale of Bygone Years explicitly refers to the arrival in Russia in 862 of the Ladoga tribe, which does not belong to the Svei, Normans, and Dan tribes (they are listed separately). Rurik, Truvor and Sineus are directly named at the head of the tribe, one of which (Rurik) united under its authority the tribes of Rus, Slovenes and Krivichi with the capital in Novgorod. His son Igor, with the help of Regent Oleg, united all the East Slavic tribes into Ruska Zemlya with the capital in Kiev.

Any other "information" about the Rus tribe and its leaders was sucked out of the finger by Norman historians.

There is a hypothesis of Lomonosov that the non-Scandinavian tribe Rus belonged to the Western Slavs and before moving to the east lived in Porus in the left bank of the Rusa River, as the lower reaches of the Neman River was then called. This area in German chronicles was called Borussia, later - Prussia.

[Victor Wolz]

An attempt to dispel some myths gives rise to others. All this dregs about the fact that the Scandinavians are strangers and they didn’t participate in the genesis of the Russian state for a long time. I am sure that the truth is always in the middle. The Russian state does not begin with Rurik and not with Oleg, but only with Princess Olga, she began to put together a tribal union in the likeness of the state. The Slavs did not create a state, not because they were stupid, but because it was expensive, there were many tribes, and there were few military aristocracy, apparently they were specially cut by the Huns and Avars. Again, a large number of torus hammers was found, which directly points to the Scandinavians in Gnezdovo and Timerovo. And everyone forgets that this was the time of heroes, another heroic age, with its own ideology (remember Achilles for example) and they were valued more than kings and princes of tribes and the hero’s nation was not always decisive (read Beowulf).

[ver_]

..Khan Gostomysl is a native of Novgorod of the Rules in Troy before the Komnins clan (he lost the emperor due to the fact that his sons all fell in battle, only daughters remained ..

[excomandante]

I never met such fierce delirium! My congratulations!

[Victor Wolz]

I see the Afghan crap then?))))

[excomandante]

for sure! Otherwise, ver_ I wouldn’t have written such nonsense))) Dutch grass is ...

[Stanislas]

Quote: ver_

Gostomysl - a native

In fact, Gostomysl is a native, but for alternatives there is no limit: you have not only history, but also an alternative language, genetics ad hoc, etc.

[jjj]

World scientific thought is ashamed to admit that the Vikings and Vikings are the essence and are Russians in the original sense

[excomandante]

I sincerely sympathize with the bal. demons who put the pluses. one cannot hate the true history of the motherland so much!

[Stanislas]

Quote: jjj

Varangians and Vikings - this is the essence and there are Russians in the original sense

What is this "primordial understanding"? Do you want to say that the Slavs called "Russian" mercenaries of different nationalities, "wild geese" nesting along the shores of the Baltic? Or that Erik the Red, Leif Erikson are our Slavic guys? "He's ours ..." Tin.

[Gorinich]

Not quite so: Russians from Arkona hired hicks (dates, sveev, etc.) from Radanites to do the dirty work. They beat out money from debtors (and half of Europe became debtors of the Jews). So the phenomenon of the Vikings appeared. And when it became necessary to put things in order on the way from the Varangians to the Greeks, or rather the slave-trade road "from the Germans to the Khazars", they called those who hired, that is, Rurik. In Khazaria at that time there was an internal fight. Therefore, there was an invitation and there was no war between Rurik and the Khazars, who belonged to the East European plain.

[Stanislas]

Quote: Gorinich

Russians from Arkona hired Radanites from the Holodrans (Dates, Sveis, etc.) for money to do the black work

Collectors under fly agaric? Option. With its pantheon, epic, military culture ... But this is confusing.

[Gorinich]

It is VERY much embarrassing, but it hurts a lot to converge in this case. The Radanites of the time, it’s about the way the Fed is now, a trading structure from Portugal to China. Vikings attacking Jewish merchant ships, historians describing the invasions of the Dates and Sveis and mentioning that Russia has come. The first laws in Russia at the mercy of capture in slavery, the creation of the Scandinavian states after the beginning of the Viking era and much more. Take an interest in digging out a lot of interesting things.

[Stanislas]

Quote: Gorinich

dig a lot of interesting

At the VO about Svyatoslav Igorevich, I missed something, there was no article in the summer, although there is a significant date in early July.

[zoolu300]

I would like to note that the names of the first Gungarik kings were still Scandinavian (Rorik, Helge, Ingvar) and only Princess Helga switched to Slavic names for her children. And the Scandinavian states created in the West (the Kingdom of York, the Duchy of Normandy, etc.).

[Operator]

You rave, in the original copies of the first treaty between Byzantium and Russia in Greek and Russian the name of the prince is directly stated - in black and white Oleg (regent with the young prince Igor, son of Rurik), and not the golem Helg.

[excomandante]

Not "created", but captured. Do you understand the difference?

[zoolu300]

That is, the Duchy of Normandy and the Kingdom of York existed before the Viking campaigns?

[Kostya Andreev]

The article and comments (for the most part) will not yield to each other in originality. And what people study at institutes, all their life trying to prove some theory that turns science around. When it’s possible, it’s so simple.
I decided not to participate in the dispute, since my knowledge does not meet the high criteria and knowledge of the participants.

[Cartalon]

The Normanists have at least the theory of the Anti-Normanists only fantasies, at the advice they have even refuted them in a scientific way, now any nonsense will go the main thing to be patriotic.

[Greydog]

The term "anti-Normanists" combines at least 6 theories, which are not inferior to the "Norman" one in terms of the "quality" of factual material.
"Western":
East Prussian.
Ryugenskaya.
"Eastern":
Khazar.
Bulgarian.
"autochthonous":
Old Russian.
Ilmenskaya.

It is clear that when you combine fragmentary information from all six - "porridge" is obtained. But taken individually, they are all pretty plausible.

[V.ic]

Quote: Cartalon

anti-Normanists have only fantasies,

Is this in your opinion MV Lomonosov’s landfill? Mb walk there yourself?

[excomandante]

Just "under the Soviets" the Normanists were approved, for Marx was one of them, that is, they were symbolically approved, but the excavations were carried out and the theories of the Normanists were quite successfully refuted in scientific works.

[Dimont]

Voices began to sound that there was no “Normanism” and the conversation about “Normanism”, “Norman theory”, “Normanists” - these are phantoms that exist only in the imagination of anti-Normanists. Here is the first reason for reflection: there are no Normanism and Normanists, but anti-Normanists are not canceled.

Somehow I didn’t catch the idea ... there are no Normanists. What then began to be called Normanists who are not?

[Greydog]

"Traditional Science"

[Greydog]

And how does "normal science" explain the origin of the word "king"?
Where, according to the data of "normal science", did the Norman drakkars who lived on the shores of the Baltic (in Norway - they find, in Denmark - they find, even in England - they find .. And in the Baltic - no)?

This "normal science" of yours is based on exactly the same assumptions as "folk history". Moreover, some "alternative" versions of the evidence seem to be no more than the "traditional" ones.

[Hapfri]

“How naive you have to be in order to think that they did not go to conquer Eastern Europe!”
In my opinion, such an argument, speaking the language of lawyers, is invalid,

However, the example of the colonization of England, Spain, Portugal, France speaks about this. Colonies of these countries were all over the world.

In addition, the qualitative difference between the Norman known predatory campaigns in the West and those benevolent pictures of the actions of the “Scandinavians” in Eastern Europe, whose examples are well known from the work of the Normanists, is striking.

But everything falls into place if we assume that the Slavs and Varangians were relatives of the peoples. The Romans called all living east of the Rhine Germans. It’s just that not only Germans lived there, but also Slavs. Then the Slavs went east exploring the Russian plain.

[Greydog]

Slavs formed just north of modern Kiev (the right bank of Pripyat). AND from there "spread out" in different directions.
And there were Balts who spoke a very similar language, but formed in the upper reaches of the Volga. And from there - settled to the west right up to modern Germany.
These were two peoples, related by blood and language, but very different in culture. Now - the branch of the Northern Slavs, in fact, is their union.

[Caretaker]

Quote: GreyDog

And there were Balts who spoke a very similar language, but formed in the upper reaches of the Volga. And from there - settled to the west right up to modern Germany.

Do you consider Lyutichi and Obodritov to be "Balts"?

[Greydog]

Judging by the time, yes. The first proto-Slavic cultures date back to the third century. And encouraged in the fifth - a fully formed tribe. Moreover - a few hundred kilometers west of the place of formation of the Slavs.

[Operator]

The first sedentary culture of the Aryans (ancestors of the Slavs) - Tripolsky, VI millennium BC, Dnieper.

The first Slavic culture recorded in the written sources of the Romans and Greeks is the Venetian (1 millennium BC), the resettlement areas are the southern coast of the Baltic (Venetian) Sea and the north of the Andriatic Gulf of the Mediterranean Sea (the area of ​​today's Venice).

The first mention of the West Slavic tribe of Rus in Byzantine chronicles is the 5th century AD, a raid on the coast of the North Sea (the area of ​​today's Holland), the second mention is the looting of Byzantine cities in Crimea in the 8th century.

[excomandante]

Arias - the ancestors of not only the Slavs, but all the peoples of the white race. What kind of juggling?

[Operator]

The white race (phenotype) are Europoids:
- Illyrians (haplogroup I), the first burials in the Balkans, Peloponessian, Apennine and Iberian peninsulas are dated 25000 years ago (probably their ancestors were Cro-Magnons);
- arias (haplogroup R1a), the first burials in the Balkans are dated 12000 years ago;
- Caucasians (haplogroup G), the first burials in the Alps and Pyrenees are dated 8000 years ago;
- Celts (haplogroup R1b), the first burials on the Iberian Peninsula are dated 5000 years ago.

There were no other representatives of Europoids - the Aryans in India mixed with the Dravids, and in Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Turkey - with the Semites; Celts in Turkmenistan mixed with the Semites, in Cameroon - with the Hamites.

[excomandante]

So what? And where does the "haplogroup"? You are taking Kles's delirium too seriously. The Russian people are fair-haired people, and no "haplogroups" are needed, one glance is enough. If an individual has the advantage of the Slavic group, he is light-eyed and light-haired. So what? Everyone has understood this for many centuries. In the Chuchmekistan, yes, there are no Europeans left, I do not argue here, but the same Chinese say that the first Shang dynasty was light-eyed and light-bearded))) In general, normal archaeological data have little to do with "haplogroups", since peoples tended to mix independently from Klesovsky delirium. Such things only affect ukrov and Estonians)))

[Operator]

The Aryan genotype is of the same type - the haplogroup R1a (as well as the Celts - R1b, ugrofinn - N1c1, Mongol - С2, Chinese - О3, Indians Q and many other peoples).

The modern genotype (composition of Y chromosomes in the genes) of Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians consists of 50% R1a, 20% I1 and I2, the rest is N1c1, R1b, C2 and others.

The phenotype (typical appearance) of Russians is brown hair, light eyes.

In modern archeology, when studying burials, it is easier to determine the haplogroup than the color of the hair or eyes.

[Stanislas]

Quote: excomandante

If an individual has the advantage of a Slavic group, he is light-eyed and fair-haired.

You distinguish between fair-haired and brunettes, but you forget to distinguish between fair-haired and blandins, don’t you? Belarusians are no longer light brown, but still Russian. Malorosy darker, but also still Russian. Or not?

[Greydog]

Biologically - Aryans are "ancestors" only for men with haplogroup R1a. With women it is more difficult, their distribution of haplogroups (mtDNK) does not correspond to historical data on migrations, and it is not possible to determine the haplotype of the "Aryan woman".
Culturally, the Aryans are the "ancestors" of a whole bunch of peoples, often not biologically related to the Aryans at all (for example, the Goths).

So here. We are arguing with the Operator about whether it is possible to strictly identify the Aryan haplogroup in Europe with the Slavs. I believe not. He is convinced yes.

[Operator]

A woman also has a Y-chromosome (the composition of chromosomes in a person is invariable), she just (unlike a man) does not pass it on to her children. The Y chromosome goes to the woman from her father. Therefore, genetic kinship is determined only by the male line.

Goths - Celts, Scandinavians: R1b mixed with I1 up to 40%, the share of the Aryan R1a is 20%.

[Greydog]

"The woman also has a Y chromosome ..."

Sobsna, this discussion can end. You undertake to defend a point of view that you do not understand.

[Operator]

I agree about genetics (chromosome composition).

I stop the discussion because of your ignorance of DNA genealogy.

[Greydog]

The first culture associated with the Slavs is Proto-Prague-Korczak. The third century AD.
And, here, the culture of the Wends, according to archaeological data, is associated with the Balts. And "slightly" older (XNUMXth century to ad).
A significant number of matches between these cultures can to imply a direct relationship (the Slavs inherit the Balts), but the existing differences, as well as completely inexplicable from this point of view, "retreat" from the dynamics of settlement (the Balts arose in the forest-steppe zone and "climbed" further into the forests until they "rested" sea, and the Slavs - reappear in the forest-steppe zone) suggest that "kinship" is "cousin" (the Balts and Slavs inherit a common ancestor, most likely the Sarmatian)

[Operator]

All ceramics of the Tripoli culture (VI millennium BC) are marked with the patrimonial signs of the Aryans (ancestors of the Slavs) - the swastika and the sign W. All burials of Tripoli culture belong to the carriers of the haplogroup R1a - again the Aryans.

Wenedos left the Carpathians west in the 1 millennium BC, i.e. when ugrofinny just entered the Volga region from the Urals.
Where is the Urals and where are the Carpathians?

Balti is a hybrid of auto-huts of the Slavs (40% R1a) and newcomers ugrofin (40% N1с1).

[excomandante]

Poor thing ... But is it not destiny to read normal historical literature at all?

[Greydog]

Balts (namely balts, and not "a cross between Slavs and Finno-Ugric peoples") are noted in the upper Volga in the 8th century BC. In the third, they appeared in the Baltic. Wends were "noticed" in the 1st century our era.
The first culture, uniquely identified with the Slavs (chipped) - in the third.

[Operator]

Balts, by definition, cannot be marked anywhere except in the Baltic.

I just said that in the Volga region in the 1 millennium BC, the first European burials of ugrofinans (100% N1c1) were found. Then none of them managed to become balts (40% R1a, 40% N1c1) or the Finns themselves (70% N1c1).

The Veneds (carriers of the haplogroup R1a and the Slavic language) were noted in the Venice region in the 1st millennium BC. The Slavs are direct descendants of the Aryans, their first settled culture is Tripolye (6 millennium BC). The ancestors of the Slavs - the Aryans (nomadic hunters and pastoralists) lived in the area since 12000 years ago. If someone else "identifies" the Slavs, then this is his problem.

[Greydog]

..understood .. R1a is found among Tajiks, Indians, and even Aborigines from some islands there, whether Indonesia, or Polynesia. Are all Slavs?
This is a haplogroup of a people who set off on a journey of thousands like this 10 years ago, and "noted" in half of the "ball". Somewhere - more, somewhere - less.
Think that one haplogroups are enough to identify the Slavs - naivety. Just because this haplogroup older them. And that means - not only they were its carriers.

[Operator]

The first person, the patriarch - the carrier of the haplogroup R1a (male) was born in Altai 25000 years ago from his father, the carrier of the haplogroup R1.

Since then, the number of descendants of the patriarch has exceeded half a billion - from 200 to 300 billions in India, 50-70 billions in Central and Western Asia, 150-200 billions in Europe.

Arias almost in full force migrated from Altai towards the west. The remains of the Aryans in Altai were assimilated by neighboring tribes.

In addition to the center of origin (Altai), the descendants of R1a carriers also have a distribution center - this is Eastern Europe, the Central Russian Plain, the Dnieper.

5000 years ago, after the Aryans were ousted by the Celts from Central Europe, R1a carriers concentrated in Eastern Europe, from which they began to diverge in all directions - east up to northern China, south to India, Iran and Asia Minor, west to the southern coast of the Baltic and northern coast of the Adriatic.

But this does not mean at all that the Arians left Eastern Europe. Their basic composition remained there - these arias became direct ancestors of the Slavs.

Those. Eastern European arias are those from which all Indian, Persian, Central Asian, West European and South European carriers of R1a (as well as Middle Eastern and Arabian) descended and nothing else.

An exception to this order is only the North European carriers of R1a (as part of the Swedes, Norwegians and Icelanders), they came directly from the Altai.

[Stanislas]

Quote: GreyDog

this haplogroup is older than them

But how do you like the concept of autochthonism, does it bother you? Wandered back and forth less than other Aryans, genetics changed more slowly.

[excomandante]

What a fierce nonsense))))

[excomandante]

Lyutichi and encouraged (Bodrichi), of course, the Slavs, in this and in those days no one doubted.

[Greydog]

What happened in Pripyat, that part of the chipped people (at that time - a single and rather small people) suddenly "broke" from their place and in a couple of centuries migrated right up to France, along the way, breaking into half a dozen not weak tribes, having mastered the construction of cities and a whole series technologies that the cleaved simply did not own?
Not. Wends (which include encouraged) - much older than the Slavs.

[Operator]

According to DNA genealogy, the Wends and the Eastern Slavs have a common ancestor who lived in the Carpathians in the 2 millennium BC, the ancestors of this ancestor lived on the Central Russian Plain in the 6 millennium BC

Therefore, the Wends descended from the East European Slavs, and not vice versa.

[excomandante]

Poor idiots ....

[excomandante]

Lying is bad and stupid.

[excomandante]

Yes, figly, Atlanteans, not otherwise, or even Lemurians, do not hesitate, colleague, you have to lie "cheerfully and gloriously!"

[V.ic]

Quote: Hupfri

“How naive you have to be in order to think that they did not go to conquer Eastern Europe!”
In my opinion, such an argument, speaking the language of lawyers, is invalid,

However, the example of the colonization of England, Spain, Portugal, France speaks about this. Colonies of these countries were all over the world.

In addition, the qualitative difference between the Norman known predatory campaigns in the West and those benevolent pictures of the actions of the “Scandinavians” in Eastern Europe, whose examples are well known from the work of the Normanists, is striking.

But everything falls into place if we assume that the Slavs and Varangians were relatives of the peoples. The Romans called all living east of the Rhine Germans. It’s just that not only Germans lived there, but also Slavs. Then the Slavs went east exploring the Russian plain.

Who lived in Kostyonki?

[excomandante]

Then the Aryan Indo-Europeans did not yet have separate peoples-nationalities, an Indo-European culture of drilled axes had just appeared. Or do you want Velikoukry-Velikorussy-Velikohazars to live there? Alas, it’s too early.

[excomandante]

On the whole, colleagues, the general illiteracy in matters of history is depressing. Why is everyone ignoring normal, scientific history ?! Most, having lost their lower jaw, listen to various scammers and freaks - Zadornov, Klyosov, Fomenko, Levashov (not to be mentioned at night) and admire. What are you admiring? That, they say, there were such Russian Rus in ancient times, cool, owned the whole world, Antarctica, and the surrounding planets, but for some reason, due to innate stupidity, they all merged and remained only in Russia? Understand, the greatness of the Russian people lies precisely in the fact that from a completely ordinary union of East Slavic tribes of the 9th century, the Russians very quickly grew into an empire of a world scale, which does not need a fictional story, and we have enough of a real one above our heads! I understand the powerless lies of the Ukrainians, Belarusians, Kazakhs, and other historically invisible peoples, but colleagues, why do we need this ?! Our scientific history, proven by documents and other archaeological gadgets, is real! We, as an "Eastern Christian civilization" (according to Toynbee), as a "Russian cultural-historical type" (according to Danilevsky,) we are an order of magnitude more interesting and promising than the same "Western Christian civilization" than any left leeches - Chinese, Japanese, Indians copying our scientific achievements. In general, "God loves Russia"! Guess whose quote?

[Victor Wolz]

And to them that on the forehead that is on the forehead)) the Aryans are Slavs and that is all)) poke them into the cultures of the East European plain, and all to no purpose. I learned that the Trypillians are the Proto-Slavs it Dinars then)).

[excomandante]

As for Trypillians, this is generally a detective story. They, it turns out, are protoukry))) The normal reaction of the horses is that they want to come up with a great story for the Hohland. But we don't need it! Our story is already great (unless fantasy fans argue), much more great ... We don't need to invent anything. Vsevolod the Big Nest alone will surpass all the invented "proto-Ukr princes; and other cadavers.

[excomandante]

well, at least they did not tie the Dinaric race to the classification of the 3rd Reich))) and then such unique ones appear.

[excomandante]

Operator,
Funny, but extremely stupid. Read.

[excomandante]

OperatorI sincerely sympathize. With age or with education, this nonsense (reading pseudo-historians) usually disappears. So all is not lost.

[excomandante]

Oleg NSK,
poor. Really believe in this idio.tiz.m?

[excomandante]

Oleg NSK,
Lying is bad.

[excomandante]

Oleg NSK,
It’s sad that the number of anacephals in our civilization is off the charts.

[excomandante]

Oleg NSK,
Really like that?

[excomandante]

Operator,
Very dashing, but not smart. Isn’t it funny for yourself?

[Stanislas]

The information war here is gathering its harvest. Some couch armies received intellectual concussions, while others suffered severe mental injuries. Not an article, but some kind of information bomb. Dear Editor! Maybe better about the reactor? About the favorite moon tractor ...

[Gorinich]

Read, but not condemned.

[Victor Wolz]

Even if we take into account the version of the direct Aryanism of the Slavs, then why are we not Zoroastrians and not the authors of the Rigveda?

[excomandante]

Because we didn’t give a damn (with saliva, as they did before historical materialism) about all these, to one degree or another, pagan delusions. Aryans, to put it simply - the northern white race, all sorts of stupid delusions of Islam with its bestiality and pedophilia, Buddhism with its wild sadism, Zoroastrianism with the deliberate stupidity of rituals, other ridiculous Hinduisms with the worship of cow dung, we never were interested and needed. Before Christianity, the Aryans had tribal beliefs, but with the advent of Christianity they quickly died out, in spite of the fierce delusional, stupid, marasmus (what else to write to pacify the evil moderators?) Ase-lambs))) PS Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism is now demonstratively manifest their wild, immanently inherent "humanism" precisely against the background of Christianity, which has become cowardly toothless. This is the path to nowhere, to a slide towards the wildest sadism. we see it in the countries of Islam, we see it in the countries of Hinduism and Buddhism. (Regarding Buddhism, anticipating the idiocy fallacy of the peaceful nature of Buddhism - check out the war of hats at least). Whoever does not believe in the sadistic nature of Hinduism - discover the "Gujarat massacre".

[excomandante]

And children - will be smarter than us, they will not have a deadly, terrible Soviet vaccination of "proletarian internationalism" that surpasses political correctness and tolerance in evil stupidity .. They, our children, will not forgive five-year-old girls impaled in the name of Kazakh or Kyrgyz nationalism, they will not sing idiot odes to Imanov and the Kazakh sadistic scumbags (there were so many of them that the names were not preserved). But will they, our children, be able to reject the deadly European poison of "political correctness and tolerance"? If they cannot, they will perish.

[excomandante]

Oleg NSK,
what the hell ?! Can I have at least one precedent?

[excomandante]

At least one, small, modest ?!

[tezey]

First, I want to know who this Lydia Grotto is. She who, historian, scientist, creator of some kind of grounded theory. Not at all. There is no such scientist. She is now an extensive list of writers fantasizing on historical topics. She is not alone of course. There is Fomenko, Klesov, the satirist Zadornov, his kingdom is heaven, he was a good man. All of them are indefatigable visionaries on the basis of history. Only their fantasies are not based on a scientific approach. Fortunately, history is not an exact science. You can imagine, for example, Klesov’s fabrications in mathematics. In mathematics it is impossible to draw unreasonable conclusions, and Lydia Grot draws them easily and naturally. History, as a science, uses written sources, archeology, linguistics, and to some extent, DNA research to establish the authenticity of an event. When all this converges at one point, it can be said, yes, the event is reliable. Everything else is from the evil one. And do not confuse science and the desire to make money on it in the wake of public interest or political commitment to the topic.

[ver_]

Quote: GreyDog

Judging by the time, yes. The first proto-Slavic cultures date back to the third century. And encouraged in the fifth - a fully formed tribe. Moreover - a few hundred kilometers west of the place of formation of the Slavs.

... read the decryption of the Phaistos Disc from the island of Crete .. Grinevich deciphered it ... - the West doesn’t like it very much - they try to shut up ..

[Pancir026]

Quote: ver_

decryption of Phaistos Disc from Crete .. He decrypted Grinevich

It?
https://econet.ru/articles/143447-festskiy-disk-s
ozdannyy-3700-let-nazad-rasciphervan

[ver_]

http://www.aleksandrnovak.com/content/401.html ...............И здесь есть

[ver_]

Quote: Caretaker

Quote: Operator

According to legend, Rurik, the leader of the West Slavic tribe of Rus, was invited by his grandfather Gostomysl, the leader of the East Slavic tribe of Slovenes, whose daughter Umila was the mother of Rurik.

Gostomysl did not have sons, so I had to invite my grandson to transfer power.

Rurik sailed to Ladoga with his tribe Rus, who migrated from the region of Porusie (the current Kaliningrad region of Russia), where it was surrounded by more numerous Baltic tribes.

Great comment.
Though. I do not agree with some statements.
The Slavs on the southern coast of the Baltic were not surrounded by "more numerous Baltic tribes." In the 9th century, rather the opposite. And not all the tribe brought Rurik, probably not even the whole clan.

... Gostomysl could not do this, because after his reign, the Komnins dynasty ruled, the last was Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky (who was crucified). He was invited by the princes who remembered this legitimate Khan's clan ...

[ver_]

Quote: excomandante

I sincerely sympathize with the bal. demons who put the pluses. one cannot hate the true history of the motherland so much!

... however, my friend, Russophobe ..

[ver_]

Quote: excomandante

for sure! Otherwise, ver_ I wouldn’t have written such nonsense))) Dutch grass is ...

... * judge no higher than the boot * ...