Military Review

Berthier rifle - a rifle for the Zouav and all the rest

83
In a smoky coffee shop involuntarily sad
Above the letter to far to her.

Your heart will beat, and you will remember Paris,
And the chant of his country:
On the way, on the way, the day of fun is over, it's time to hike.
Aim at the chest, little Zouav, shout "Hurray!"
For many days, believing in miracles - Susanna is waiting.
She has blue eyes and a scarlet mouth.
The song from the movie "Red Square")


Probably many of us remember this film, made in the USSR in 1979, and, in my opinion, this is the best among all the films on this topic. Both in the first and second episodes this song sounds there, and it emphasizes that the Zouaves, that is, the French colonial troops, were staffed with low-growing soldiers. And in France, the second after England of the colonial power at the beginning of the twentieth century, this circumstance in the small arms system was taken into account, though not on purpose, but by the will of circumstances.


A French soldier with a Berthier rifle of the 1907 model of the year.

It was just that shortly after the Lebel rifle entered the French army, it became clear that this sample has a number of flaws, and the most important of them is its tubular magazine. Yes, as many as eight cartridges were placed in it, while all the other rifles had cartridges in the 5-6 stores, but ... They charged them either with a pack or a clip, but they had to be charged into the lebel one at a time! But since at that time the on-line production of this rifle was already established, it was only possible to shrug it off, because it was difficult to “construct” them in such a way, or rather, it was simply impossible to make any serious changes. Therefore, the French military showed "wisdom." Based on the massive release of Lebel rifles, start gradually putting into service another sample of the rifle, hoping that with time, gradually, the second rifle, as more advanced, will painlessly force out the first one in the army.


Cavalry carbine Berthier and clips to him.

In this connection, the process of gradual introduction of the Berthier rifle began, история which began with a cavalry rifle, developed in 1890 year. Work on the new rifle stretched ... 17 years and were completed only with the advent of the model in the 1907 year, and then this model, which was called the rifle arr. 1907 of the year, was sent to the French troops who were in the colonies, and above all, in Indochina.


Shutter handle carbine Berthier arr. 1916

The new rifle, Berthier, was the development of his previous models and, above all, his 1890 carbine of the year. Then it turned out that if Lebel’s rifle could still be charged in infantry, then in cavalry it’s just very uncomfortable and hard, and then Emil Berthier, engineer of the Algerian Railway, offered his sample. The carbine had a Gra rifle bolt and a Mannicher rifle pack shop. The only difference was that Manlichera’s pack had “top” and “bottom” and you had to look at how “end” you shoved it into the store so that it would not get stuck. And Bertier made a pack symmetrical, but only three cartridges. However, his cavalryman liked the carbine. And above all, the fact that he had a solid wood continuous cut box, very elegantly "flowed" his shop. In addition, he had an elongated reloading handle, convenient for working in the saddle!


The rifle of the 1907 model of the year with a bayonet.


Berthier rifle with a five rounds magazine.

Berthier rifle - a rifle for the Zouav and all the rest

Mle M16 sniper rifle model 1917 of the year.

In 1902, based on it, the “colonial rifle” was adopted for the small aborigines of Asia and Africa, for whom the standard “lebel” was too long and heavy. The Berthier was shorter and lighter, and therefore more convenient for any Anamites and Malays, out of which the French, along the lines of the British, also recruited their colonial forces. In 1907, a longer “Senegalese version” appeared for much more tall Senegalese blacks, but also with a three-round magazine, so that, having rebelled, they would not have a fire advantage over the metropolitan forces!


French 8-mm rant cartridges.

The situation changed dramatically in 1915, when the strength of the French army increased so much that stocks weapons she was missed. The production of Berthier’s rifles was then dramatically increased, an order was placed on it in the United States at the Remington factory, and it gradually began to force out obsolete samples. The new model was called the rifle arr. 1907 / 15 of the year. Soon it began to arrive at the front in such quantities that it became by mass the main weapon of the French infantry, and was used not only in World War I, but also remained in service until the 1940 year.


A pack of three rounds (left) and five (right).

Initially, it kept the store for three rounds, but this number of rounds compared with the German “Mouser” was not enough. Then the store was lengthened so that a five-charge pack would fit into it. This modification of the rifle went into production as a rifle arr. 1916 of the year. Her shop protruded from the lodge, which was very inconvenient, since it was here that her center of gravity was located.


That’s how the shutter looked like on Berthier’s rifle. As you can see, in the infantry rifle, the bolt handle was short and did not turn down.


The shutter is open. The feed lever is clearly visible.


See the screw heads? Neither the rifle itself, nor its bolt can not be disassembled without a screwdriver, which, however, was a characteristic feature of the weapons of that time.

Rifles arr. 1907 / 15 and 1916 quickly gained popularity in the army: true, they were too long for melee in the trenches, but with a long T-profile bayonet were indispensable in a bayonet attack, they were also convenient to shoot, and the soldiers usually preferred them old Lebel rifles. These rifles arr. 1907 / 15 of the year were produced simply in huge quantities. Moreover, although they were released from Remington in the United States, all this production was sent only to the French army. Not a single rifle "went to the side." At the end of the war, its service continued until the 1934 year, when it occurred to the French to remake a rifle for a new 7,5-mm cartridge, designed specifically for light machine guns. The new rifle received not only a new barrel, but also a five-charge double-row Mauser shop and received the designation 1907 / 15 M34 rifle. However, the process of changing trunks was very slow. So slowly that by May 1940, only an insignificant part of the existing rifles was remade to fit the new caliber, which only complicated the supply of troops with ammunition.


And here so the empty pack fell out of shop.


Inside the receiver there were many different protrusions, which required complex operations on their processing on milling machines.

After the capitulation of France in June 1940, the Germans got an extremely large number of very different French rifles. They began to use some of them to arm their rear units, but most of them were sent for storage in arsenals (but in 1945, they began to arm the Volkssturm and other similar formations). In addition, on the territory of the USSR they were armed with policemen, giving each of them two clips. Somehow he turned out to be armed, however, there was no sense to run to the partisans with such a “weapon”.


On the rifle that fell into my hands, this “thorn with a cap” was broken off. But he had to look like that.


It seems that this detail was used for setting rifles in goats. However, it was possible to shoot from it without this detail.

Undoubtedly, the Germans, famous for their thoroughness, were far from delighted with the need to systematize all these trophies, but in the conditions of a total war, they had to arm not only their troops, but also their satellites. That is why the captured French rifles were useful and gradually spread almost throughout Europe. They were armed with Vichy troops and collaborator units, in particular the Charlemagne battalion. Well, today these old French rifles can be seen in museums and in private collections.


1907 rifle marking


1916 rifle marking

As for the design of this type of small arms, it is a typical representative of the French arms school of the end of the XIX century. Rifle length obr.1916 year 1306 mm, barrel length - 803 mm. Weight - 4,19 kg. Caliber: 8-mm, cartridge with rant case and bullet of tampak alloy. The straight neck of the butt was convenient for holding it in a bayonet attack. But in the hands of the rifle seems heavy and too long even for the modern man. Fuse, for the sake of simplicity, the rifle did not have. Until 1915, there was no upper barrel lining on it. The bayonet had a brass handle, that is, it was also a difficult weapon.


The ring is just like a horse harness!

As for personal impressions, then ... it’s too long and therefore uncomfortable. And this is without a bayonet. And to shoot from it with hands with a bayonet is, probably, she will simply pull off her hands! Very inconvenient store with a lid. It was not on the carbine. Like all Mannicher rifles, there was a hole through which the pack fell out of the rifle. But then they decided to close it with an opening lid, which made it even more inconvenient than before. How does a used pack fall out of a store if, say, it runs into the ground? That is, it was necessary to constantly remember.


Shop cover is open. It was through this hole that the spent tutu fell out. Finger slots are visible on the side of the store to make it easy to open the lid!
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  1. dumkopff
    dumkopff 23 December 2016 06: 04
    13
    I have not heard. It turns out that the French have as many as three types of rifles in a series of time to release. Lebel, Berthier and MAS36. Originals. They, however, in many areas had their own unique path. Thank you for the article. Here are just a few typos and inaccuracies that can be corrected.
    1. The film "Red Square" was released in 1970. And he is much less famous than, for example, "Officers". Although, for me, it is much stronger. The song "Philibert" was written almost at the beginning of the 20th century in Russia (although there is also a French song with that name - it is worse).
    2. "The Germans were far from ecstatic."
    3. "The ring is like a horse jet". Harness, probably. The jet is somewhat different.
  2. Comrade Stalin
    Comrade Stalin 23 December 2016 07: 40
    +2
    The French are large originals, limited to half measures. I'm just losing weight from them. This means that by 1940 the French army had already 4 rifle systems: Lebel with an under-barrel magazine, Berthier with a pack of 3 and 5 rounds, and also the MAC-36 with a completely different cartridge, which even theoretically excluded the possibility of firing at even one cartridge. This is a nightmare for the supply and command, and the soldier has little joy in discovering, for example, that they brought 5-cartridge packs to them, and that he has a rifle on a 3-cartridge pack or vice versa. Although they approached each other, anyway, joy from this is not enough. In our country, the CBT and ABC were charged with a standard Mosin clip, and no problems.
    1. kalibr
      23 December 2016 10: 28
      +8
      Yes, that's how it was! Therefore, the French soldiers often went "with hostility" (that's how even!), This was noted by the Germans themselves, demonstrating remarkable courage! And the reason was often banal - "the wrong cartridges were brought!"
      1. Comrade Stalin
        Comrade Stalin 23 December 2016 10: 48
        +4
        Come on!
        Quote: kalibr
        wrong cartridges brought

        In WWI, I still admit a bayonet attack by the custodians, but in WWII the custodian was no longer the same as his father in WWII.
        Remember the statements of the French intelligentsia during the pacification of Hitler?
        A thin world is better than a good quarrel!
        There is no shameful world, there are only shameful wars!
        And the general secretary of the teachers' union, André Delmas, even said: "Better to live a German than die a French! Better slavery than war!" And for this statement, no one thought to remove him from office! But he is the HEAD of the French teachers' union! What, then, will people like him teach young Frenchmen?

        As a result, the French chose shame instead of war, and as a result, after the Munich conspiracy, they got both shame and war together.
        1. kalibr
          24 December 2016 21: 07
          0
          It was just about the First ...
          1. Comrade Stalin
            Comrade Stalin 24 December 2016 21: 24
            0
            In World War I, the custodians had 7,5 * 54 rounds?
            1. kalibr
              25 December 2016 13: 50
              0
              8 mm only
  3. bionik
    bionik 23 December 2016 08: 49
    +4
    Algerian shooters or zouaves with full-time Berthier and a Hotchkiss machine gun.
  4. Mikado
    Mikado 23 December 2016 09: 49
    0
    I'm interested in how the used pack fell out of the store. Under its own weight, or did it come from the fact that you load a new pack and "push out" the old one, or what kind of extractor was there?
    1. Comrade Stalin
      Comrade Stalin 23 December 2016 10: 12
      +3
      Under its own weight.
      In my opinion, a pack is faster and more convenient to charge, since you do not need to pull out and throw out the clip. That's just a lot of metal spent on a pack than on a clip, why everyone later switched to a clip, like the same Austrians who since 1916 began to produce and arm their soldiers with Mausers.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 23 December 2016 10: 40
        +5
        Thanks for the educational program! drinks looking at your scheme, I also wanted to look "in profile". Found a cut on Wikipedia. Now it's clearer!
        1. Comrade Stalin
          Comrade Stalin 23 December 2016 10: 57
          +1
          Yes, as soon as the last cartridge was sent to the chamber, the pack ceased to be held by the sleeve, which was supported by the spring feeder from below. And since the feeder was much narrower than the lower and upper openings of the pack, the pack freely fell down to the ground from the store under its own weight.
        2. kalibr
          23 December 2016 11: 01
          +3
          I deliberately did not give this cut because it is from Wikipedia. I would like to spread my own words, "the Soviet people have their own pride," as the poet said.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 23 December 2016 11: 13
            +1
            this is correct. The main thing is that the article gives an overview and interest. If they are interested, they can find the necessary information themselves, or ask a question, we have a lot of experts on the forum!
            Your humble servant, unfortunately, did not hold a classic rifle in his hands (SVD does not count, it is self-loading), so the operation of some mechanisms may raise questions what
            1. kalibr
              23 December 2016 17: 10
              +1
              It so happened that I worked on Penza television from 1980 to 1991 - I hosted children's programs. But in 1995 he returned for six months with the program "The Weapon of Victory" and, based on the funds of the regional museum, talked about everything ... so the SVD, the Mauser, the PTRD and the PTRS - all had to be carried, disassembled and assembled. Then this topic interested me ...
  5. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 23 December 2016 09: 58
    +1
    then ... it is very long and therefore uncomfortable.

    Is it long by itself or are there not enough arms? maybe this is subjective, like the photo is no longer than a mosquito.
    Yes, you have good friends !!! I envy big, white envy !!!!!
    1. kalibr
      23 December 2016 10: 25
      +1
      Yes, do not have 100 rubles, but have ... According to the plan, there will be a series of "Mauser" ... It is only necessary that the time coincides - for him and for me, and this is the main problem. There is simply no time!
  6. Dekabrist
    Dekabrist 23 December 2016 10: 07
    +6
    By tradition, I will allow myself a few additions.
    Oddly enough, Emil Berthier, an engineer on the Algerian railway, had no business with the creation of the described rifle with weapons. Why it happened, history is silent. However, despite all the shortcomings, the model he created went through two world wars. In addition, the French gendarmerie used the rifle for their needs until the 60 years.
    Among the shortcomings, the archaic sector sight of the French rifle was easily deformed. The fuse was practically absent, it was replaced by the so-called safety platoon of the striker, which deformed the cartridge caps during the descent. The safety wooden pad on the barrel was short - with intensive shooting, the fighter could burn his fingers on the red-hot barrel.
    And the horse stream ring is the so-called running ring, located almost in the middle of the gun, which is why wearing the Fusil Lebel on the belt was very inconvenient. The ring was used instead of the upper swivel.
    The Lebel-Berthier bolt, as already mentioned, was impossible to disassemble without a screwdriver, but it was not in the “secret” butt - the fighter had to wear a screwdriver in a special compartment of the pouch. Also, the standard (permanent) fastening of the ramrod was not provided, and the platoon assembly of this necessary tool was supposed to be moved in the wagon train. One of the characteristic details of the Lebel-Berthier rifle looked simply curious - the special metal "mustache" on top of the arms box was from the "Napoleonic Wars" and was intended to be used to make rifles in the "..." box during a halt.
    1. kalibr
      23 December 2016 10: 22
      +1
      Yes, the "mustache" was not on the rifle that was in my hands, it broke off. And ... why such a fragile part. It may not be longer than a mosinka, but I personally did not feel comfortable holding it in my hands with a height of 1 m 78 cm. A long, heavy "dryn", which is very difficult for the protruding store. I presented her with a bayonet on - just quiet horror.
      1. Dekabrist
        Dekabrist 23 December 2016 10: 37
        +2
        Obviously you were holding the latest modification of the 1916 rifle of the year. She has a really long barrel - 803 mm. The Mauser 98 has 740 mm, the Mosin infantry rifle has 800 mm, which is also decent fun, why, when modernizing in 1930, they stopped at Dragoon, it has an 730 mm barrel.
        1. kalibr
          23 December 2016 10: 52
          0
          Yes, there was a photo with a stigma and a date ... that year.
          1. Dekabrist
            Dekabrist 23 December 2016 11: 01
            +2
            By the way, if you are already describing samples from a collection, it may make sense to pay more attention, let's say, to the "life path" of a particular sample that has entered the collection. If possible, of course. It would be interesting, there are specimens with a very interesting fate.
            1. kalibr
              23 December 2016 17: 13
              0
              You thought of it well, she-she, but ... they are not mine. A friend of mine bought it all at auctions. And I was not particularly interested in the origin - the main thing is the price. And he has no bayonets! They are much more expensive! This is how I bought kukri - I did not buy less than 9 inches and I will not buy it, because it is "not typical". And there is no extra money. And more size, according to the circumstances.
              1. Dekabrist
                Dekabrist 23 December 2016 23: 46
                +1
                The history of ownership is one of the main components of the price of a collection weapon !!! Of course, this applies to military weapons to a lesser extent, but still.
  7. cannabis
    cannabis 23 December 2016 10: 38
    +3
    The film Red Square is a typical example of Soviet historiography. Everything is distorted! But how beautiful and artistic! The most colorful Jew Shalevich plays the "distinct" Russian lieutenant. The role of the Jewish commissar went to the Russian "Johann Weiss", the wonderful actor Stanislav Lyubshin. What was shown as a victory near Narva was in fact the collapse of the front and the flight of troops from a couple of German battalions. The reason why the Russian lieutenant served in the red army is not covered in the film, and only now we understand that his choice was simple - either to serve as red or to go to the expense. The only truthfulness in the film is shown the headquarters bastard and sailor Volodya performed by the eternal traffic police officer Sergei Nikonenko. His phrase is also special - "How stupid it characterizes you!" Favorite character! But the anarchists also greatly interfered with the Soviet regime, and the sailor Volodya truly dies while making a distracting blow to the whites. It is also true that the performer of the song about the little zouave in the first episode was the lieutenant's wife, and in the second she became the commissar's wife. Women have a heightened political instinct! What's more ... the film gives a clear assessment of the level of teaching tactics in the Russian army. It was these "distinct" lieutenants who taught our future commanders of the model of Marshal Chuikov in military schools, making warriors out of blatars.
    1. kalibr
      23 December 2016 10: 55
      +4
      You should probably write reviews of films - I subscribe to every word! I give this film to students to watch as an example of art. About the indicated by you ... "inaccuracies" either I tell myself or they read themselves. But everyone says - emotionally the film is on top!
      1. Dekabrist
        Dekabrist 23 December 2016 11: 16
        +2
        About film criticism. I would very much like to know what in 40-50 years they will write about the current film masterpieces. And both as examples of art, and as examples of historical "undistorted".
      2. cannabis
        cannabis 23 December 2016 13: 12
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        You should probably write movie reviews

        Reviews can be written by such masters as A.V. Kukarkin, it remains for us either to sincerely rejoice at the successful embodiment of creative ideas or to grumble old-fashionedly at Americanized crafts. In my infantry opinion, there were three great cinematic schools, which were based not on the colorful fuss of plot moves, but on the skillful creation of a single spiritual line of the film, using imagery, richness of language, and beautiful music. These are Polish, French and Soviet films. But this applies to the Soviet ones in the delta from the Ballad about a soldier to Every evening at 11. Probably after the movie The Day Train, this era is over.
        1. kalibr
          23 December 2016 17: 19
          +1
          Yes, I agree with you. For example, I really like "At 6 pm after the war" ... But there is also an English version - "Waterloo Bridge" and funny "George from Dinky Jazz" and the French classic "Big Walk". Although there are modern good films: "Lafayette Squadron", "Mosquito Squadron (worse)," Beauty of Memphis "," We Were Soldiers "... All this in the course of cultural studies I have students watch and learn to write reviews. Polish "Pharaoh" and "Flesh and Blood" - you can't get up here!
          1. cannabis
            cannabis 23 December 2016 18: 13
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            Especially funny ones write in Polish "Pharaoh" and "Flesh and Blood" - you can't get up here!

            It would be interesting to read their reviews about the Polish film Wolf Echo, the French Death of Madame Leman and about our Sannikov Land. The Americans, of course, also have their diamonds. And Dina Durbin in the movie "It All Started with Eve" and My Fair Lady. But it is the Americans who are guilty of the planetary decline in morals and the overthrow of the general culture of mankind.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 23 December 2016 20: 08
              0
              And what is the claim to Sannikov’s Land? Of course, not a complete film adaptation of Obruchev’s text, but as an adventure film, it’s quite!
              1. cannabis
                cannabis 23 December 2016 20: 15
                0
                Quote: hohol95
                And what is the claim to Sannikov’s Land?

                No claim, gratitude for the fact that for the first time the idea was expressed popularly about the existence of the former homeland of our people, the land that had gone under the waters of the Arctic Ocean. AR - earth, Tick - run away. The Arctic, it’s the film Sannikov’s Land.
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 23 December 2016 21: 12
                  +1
                  Only in reality, only the merchant Sannikov saw her! But no one ever found! We decided that he saw a cluster of ice forming a temporary island!
                  1. cannabis
                    cannabis 23 December 2016 23: 14
                    0
                    About 7-8 years ago, videos appeared on the Internet with recordings of what the passengers of the ship managed to remove in the Arctic. Houses, towers, arches rose from the sea, in a word a huge city, which was probably removed by tourists for half an hour. Then the crust bent again and the city disappeared into the depths. In the shortest time after the appearance of these records on the Internet, all of them were deleted for obvious reasons.
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 24 December 2016 00: 21
                      +4
                      This city of Kitezh has surfaced! Residents glanced at the modern disgraces and returned the hail back to the water!
            2. kalibr
              23 December 2016 20: 14
              0
              But they have a lot of very good movies ...
              1. cannabis
                cannabis 23 December 2016 20: 23
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                But they have a lot of very good movies ...

                I would call it colorful, rarely quality, and even less exciting. French and American films are heavily decorated with music. The appeal to feelings works most reliably to music. Take for example the same American action movie Quiet Cool. Music makes a Shakespearean epic drama out of a simple plot.
                1. kalibr
                  24 December 2016 11: 58
                  0
                  I agree! Although I personally like "Stagecoach" and "River without Return" more. And of course Stalin's favorite film "Serenades of the Sun Valley". In general, everything there is based on music.
            3. hohol95
              hohol95 23 December 2016 21: 19
              0
              Advise your students to read Ouarda! I don't remember the author. About ancient Egypt!
              1. cannabis
                cannabis 23 December 2016 23: 21
                0
                Quote: hohol95
                About ancient Egypt!

                And ancient Egypt may turn out to be a simple cemetery of the Slavic rulers of antiquity. One thing is that the carrier of souls through the Styx CHARON is very "waving" to the funeral, and the process of burial in Egyptian is OTEPV, well, a purely Russian word.
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 24 December 2016 00: 17
                  0
                  Come come handsome gall I do not catch you, but fish! Charon will get his fish! Words from the duel between the sector and the retiarius from the book Spartak! Charon - Greek mythology!
                  1. kalibr
                    24 December 2016 21: 04
                    0
                    How nice it is to quote Giovanyoli on a modern site ... +++++++++++
                2. kalibr
                  24 December 2016 11: 51
                  0
                  Just don’t play words! In ancient Egyptian, they sounded not so completely! No need for fantasy ...
              2. kalibr
                24 December 2016 11: 57
                0
                There are many books about Egypt, there is even a detective A. Christie where murders take place precisely during the time of the pharaohs. But the semester is one, and the program is not rubber. Therefore, I can only let them watch the movie "Pharaoh" and read only the novel by Elizabeth Hering "The Sculptor of the Pharaoh". This is from my program, it is signed and approved at all levels. I can give nothing arbitrarily. Although I read Ward.
                1. cannabis
                  cannabis 24 December 2016 13: 13
                  0
                  Quote: kalibr
                  I can’t give anything arbitrarily. Although I read Ward.

                  Understand. Standards in education ... immediately the cartoon comes to mind 80 years with walking hammers, which all heads are aligned in the form of cubes.
            4. moskowit
              moskowit 24 December 2016 14: 42
              0
              Comrades, ah-ooh !!! The article is about a rifle! And you, damn it, opened "Kinopanorama" ...
              1. cannabis
                cannabis 24 December 2016 14: 49
                0
                Quote: moskowit
                The article is about a rifle

                On Saturday, about the rifle? Well, no .... think ... a piece of iron, a piece of wood, a strap. Saturday is a glass-bath day, as it is written in the Constitution.
          2. Dekabrist
            Dekabrist 23 December 2016 23: 58
            +1
            We catch on a word. Since the discussion has gone so deeply, with you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, an article about the contribution of Hufflepuff and Herder to contemporary cultural studies.
            1. kalibr
              24 December 2016 11: 53
              0
              Notice! But ... the session began on December 12th. The jelly goes in a stream and I have a lot of groups + correspondence students - "the correspondence student is a collection of misfortunes and troubles, he receives a diploma for length of service!" + masters are the elite. So there is absolutely no time to think and write. Therefore, in the near future there will be articles where there is no need to think, which are written on "autopilot".
              1. Dekabrist
                Dekabrist 24 December 2016 15: 30
                +1
                Articles where you don’t need to think, there is someone to write on the site without you. And every day more and more. Attract students, let write for the offset.
                1. kalibr
                  24 December 2016 16: 51
                  0
                  Students cannot be recruited. Those who do not know how to write from technical specialties, only learn. And I don't work for journalists, but even there - there is skill, there is no intelligence. And "no need to think" is me about topics that are well known to me and simply fall on the tongue by themselves. This is no offense to VO readers.
              2. moskowit
                moskowit 24 December 2016 16: 21
                0
                Come on, this is bad manners for you. A professional in any kind of activity will not be able to work somehow ... So, let me disagree with you. We are waiting for new materials ...
                1. kalibr
                  24 December 2016 16: 55
                  0
                  Somehow it cannot, of course. Just if there is material, for example, about landings for chatter, then you need to go to the archive. And to write about Ivan the Terrible - you need to read historiography ... Time, time, time .... but about the same towers from 38 (t) that were used as pillboxes there are many - take and write. Or chapters from Soloviev’s dissertation on evacuation. Interesting after all? Interesting! And to think ... what to think, take and write!
  8. Baursak
    Baursak 23 December 2016 10: 40
    +1
    Thanks for the article, a lot of interesting material.
    I read a lot about French weapons, and I was always surprised by the fact that such an industrialized country like France has not created practically a single "military masterpiece" over the past 150 years, neither in small arms, nor in tanks, nor in artillery, nor in aviation. nor in modern missile weapons. She fought no less than Germany, England, Russia, and she could not create at least one truly "revolutionary" weapon, unlike the above countries. The dubious exception is the Renault FT-17 tank, a tank for the development of tank building is really revolutionary, but in serious wars it did not show itself in anything.
    1. Dekabrist
      Dekabrist 23 December 2016 10: 48
      +5
      Just today, exactly 50 years since the first flight of the French fighter Dassault “Mirage” F1, one of the best fighters of the third generation. Still in service in some countries. In France, withdrawn from service in 2014. Argentina is now considering buying them.
      1. kalibr
        23 December 2016 10: 57
        +3
        And remember the first SS-11 ATGMs? The first missile boats, tanks with a swinging tower ... These are the steps along which, starting from them, others walked!
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 23 December 2016 19: 37
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          These are the steps on which, starting from them, others walked!

          somewhere I read the memories of our scout, so he wrote that the French had stolen solid fuel for aircraft missiles and their manufacturing technology
    2. Mikado
      Mikado 23 December 2016 10: 52
      +1
      A dubious exception is the Renault FT-17 tank, the tank for the development of tank building is truly revolutionary, but in serious wars did not show itself.

      in WWI, tanks were not so perfect as to have a strong impact (when both sides buried several meters in the ground, were surrounded by artillery of all calibers, and the battlefield is a "lunar landscape", and there is no clear concept of using armored forces). Although they did have a psychological effect. But Renault is, in fact, the ancestor of all subsequent tanks. drinks
    3. Comrade Stalin
      Comrade Stalin 23 December 2016 11: 12
      +3
      That's about FT-17 forced to disagree. The tank turned out to be revolutionary: with cannon armament in a rotating single turret, with a control compartment in front, a combat center in the middle and a motor-transmission rear. It was in this layout that ALL successful tanks were designed and built for the whole 100 years until Armata appeared. What, what, and with FT-17, the French very accurately guessed and pushed the tank building forward. Not without reason, even at the beginning of WWII in Poland and France, the FT-17 successfully fought against the T-1 and T-2, which on September 1, 1939 were the majority in the Wehrmacht. Copies of the FT-17 were adopted and built in the USA, the USSR and Italy. They wouldn’t build a bad tank at home.
      You can still recall the revolutionary Canon de 75 mle 1897, where for the first time in the world they applied a hydropneumatic recoil brake, thanks to which for a short time sighting gun rate could reach 20 rounds per minute. Then the Germans already copied the retreat brake from the French for their 77-mm cannon model 1896, and the royal three-inch was also made with an eye on the French cannon.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 23 December 2016 11: 51
        0
        Then the Germans already copied the retreat brake from the French for their 77-mm cannon model 1896, and the royal three-inch was also made with an eye on the French cannon.

        and with an eye on the French doctrine "one caliber - one cannon - one shell." Therefore, so much shrapnel was released that it was also enough for the Great Patriotic War. Almost a standard T-28 anti-tank tool in the 30s, it seems, was shrapnel put on strike.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 23 December 2016 12: 28
          +1
          And for the T-34 and for the KV-1!
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 23 December 2016 12: 32
            0
            this was already a forced palliative, especially in the early days of the war. For the L-11, F-32 and F-34, armor-piercing shells were originally developed. And their sleeve was different than that of the "three-inch" and regimental cannon Model 1927, respectively, and the KT cannon.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 23 December 2016 12: 55
              +1
              Just a three-inch gun is a divisional weapon! And the KT-28 was a tank version of the regimental gun! T-34 and KV-1 COULD USE shells from divisions, but from regimental NO! And vice versa!
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 23 December 2016 13: 11
                0
                need to look at the sleeve. The division could fire a projectile from the regimental, it was considered "with a reduced charge", but on the contrary - not. You washed me, the right word, thank you! drinks Are there any experts whether the sleeve differed from the "three-inch" sleeve from the USV, Zis-3, F-34? Alexey RA should know for sure ..
                1. Comrade Stalin
                  Comrade Stalin 23 December 2016 13: 22
                  +1
                  Gun shots were completed in the form of a unitary cartridge. In order to unify ammunition with divisional guns, the length of the chamber of the regimental gun was adopted the same as the division. However, since the recoil device of the regimental gun was not designed to use powerful shots of divisional guns, special measures were taken to exclude the possibility of loading the regimental gun with a divisional shot. For this, the diameter of the flange of the sleeve of the shotgun of the regimental gun was reduced; accordingly, it was impossible to charge the regimental gun with a divisional shot - the flange of its sleeve did not enter the undercut in the gripping sockets. At the same time, firing of regimental cannon shots from a divisional weapon was possible.

                  It was the Germans who perverted, creating different shells for their tank guns for the T-4, different shells for the 75 mm infantry gun, and different shells for the 75 mm PAK-40. Well, they were tortured so that the USSR simply crushed them with their weapons, which were mass-produced thanks to unification.
                  1. Mikado
                    Mikado 23 December 2016 14: 39
                    0
                    well. This is about the difference between a "three-inch" and a regimental one. Was there a difference between the three-inch sleeve and the F-22 USV (that is, the next generation of guns), or was the sleeve the same?
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 23 December 2016 15: 24
                      +1
                      Wikipedia: about the regimental cannon of 1927 -
                      Gun shots were completed in the form of a unitary cartridge. In order to unify ammunition with divisional guns, the length of the chamber of the regimental gun was adopted the same as the division. However, since the recoil device of the regimental gun was not designed to use powerful shots of divisional guns, special measures were taken to exclude the possibility of loading the regimental gun with a divisional shot. For this, the diameter of the flange of the sleeve of the shotgun of the regimental gun was reduced; accordingly, it was impossible to charge the regimental gun with a divisional shot - the flange of its sleeve did not enter the undercut in the gripping sockets. At the same time, firing of regimental cannon shots from a divisional weapon was possible. Separate-loading shots collected in shortened cartridges could also be used, but this option was not widely used.
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 23 December 2016 15: 39
                        +1
                        Separate-loading shots collected in shortened shells could also be used.

                        with shortened charges, more than anything else, the Japanese perverted in their 70-mm howitzer. good A simple-looking gun, but it worked well even in Korea against the Americans.
                    2. hohol95
                      hohol95 23 December 2016 15: 27
                      0
                      Wikipedia about F-22 (respectively F-22USV and ZiS-3):
                      A brass or steel sleeve of a unitary cartridge of a 1900 sample weighing 1,55 or 1,45 kg, respectively, had a length of 385,3 mm and a flange diameter of 90 mm. The charge 54-Zh-354 [36] consisted of 1,08 kg of gunpowder grades 4/1 or 9/7. For old grenades and some shrapnel, a charge of 54-Zh-354A was used, weighing 0,9 kg of gunpowder grade 7/7. Caliber and cumulative shells were also used with their own special charges. Also, the gun could shoot the entire range of shots to the 76-mm regimental cannon mod. 1927 - the charge of these shots was considered to be a regular reduced for divisional guns. During the war, munitions of separate loading were limited. They were equipped with shortened (trimmed) sleeves, which were rejected as dulce.
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 23 December 2016 15: 58
                        0
                        so damn it. Looks like I was wrong about the liner .. drinks
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 23 December 2016 12: 57
              +1
              The divisions and regiments had one shells, but here are different shells!
    4. dumkopff
      dumkopff 23 December 2016 12: 19
      +4
      In my opinion, you have some terminological ambiguity. A "military masterpiece" and a "revolutionary weapon" are two different things. The revolutionary weapon presupposes a noticeable redrawing of the existing concept of warfare. A military masterpiece assumes a weapon with significantly better characteristics than competitors under the existing restrictions. For example, the Mark 1 tank is a revolutionary weapon, but not a masterpiece. And the Kalashnikov assault rifle is a masterpiece, but by no means a revolutionary weapon, since the concept was run in noticeably before.
      However, one can argue with you on this and on another point.
      For example, the invention of Roland Garros was revolutionary (he, to some extent, created the first fighter). And the masterpiece was the Richelieu-class battleships. If you look closely, it turns out that the French have created a lot of advanced and interesting things in military technology.
      1. kalibr
        24 December 2016 11: 49
        +1
        Can this sentence be taken from you and inserted into a book? Very capacious and clear!
      2. Baursak
        Baursak 26 December 2016 05: 56
        0
        I agree with you about the terminology. Indeed, instead of "revolutionary" and instead of "masterpiece" it was necessary to use the term "outstanding" weapon.
        You can, of course, argue about the term "masterpiece", but I don't see the point - the French did not have such weapons and do not! A weapon must first of all prove itself on the battlefield, and even if "a weapon has noticeably better characteristics than its competitors with the existing restrictions," it is not always a masterpiece, a complex of characteristics is needed.
    5. Glory1974
      Glory1974 23 December 2016 16: 06
      0
      And what about the modern Leclerc? The next generation tank, it has many problems with electronics, but nonetheless. The French also make nuclear submarines. RCC "Exocet", with which the Argentines chased the British. Thermal imagers and combat control system "Zenith". So in my opinion they have everything in order with their weapons.
  9. moskowit
    moskowit 23 December 2016 17: 27
    +1
    As always, capacious, clear, interesting. Thank!
  10. kalibr
    23 December 2016 20: 13
    0
    Quote: cunning
    the Polish film Wolf Echo, the French Death of Madame Lehman and about our Land Sannikov

    These were not watched by anyone and I cannot recommend them ... there is not enough time!
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 23 December 2016 21: 16
      0
      But the phrase from the song - There is only a moment between the past and the future .... You have probably heard many times! Song from Sannikov Land!
      1. kalibr
        24 December 2016 11: 47
        0
        Yes, I also saw the film, although I did not like it. But for students, he does not fit into the program.
    2. cannabis
      cannabis 23 December 2016 23: 32
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      not enough time!

      When there is a lot of strength, there is not enough time. When time appears, there is no more strength. It is interesting to work with youth! One difficulty - what they do not know yet, you have already forgotten. You have to make discoveries together.
  11. bunta
    bunta 26 December 2016 08: 01
    +1
    It seems that this part was used for staging rifles in the goats.

    Into the pyramids.
  12. tar9
    tar9 27 December 2016 10: 56
    0
    Probably all rubbish was stuffed in the hole for the loss of the pack when moving by dashes !?
  13. KOMA
    KOMA 29 December 2016 05: 45
    0
    the Zouaves, that is, the French colonial troops, were staffed by stunted soldiers


    Evidence of short stature Zouavov you can see on a porcelain plate during the Crimean War from the collection of Mikhailovsky ravellina Sevastopol.