Military Review

“We should be grateful to those who fought and won”

55
To the 120 anniversary of Marshal Pobeda Georgy Zhukov


“In recent years, my father loved to plant roses. From the Crimean state farm "Krasnoye" they wrote out different varieties, he planted them around the summer cottage in Sosnovka, where we lived, and when someone came to him, especially from the doctors, he would surely cut roses for them - nobody would let go without a bunch ”- when Maria Georgievna Zhukova speaks about her father, her eyes are filled with a special light, and, peering at them, you see great love, and sometimes it seems that there are also tears.

Her birth was a special consolation, sent by the Lord to her father on the eve of a terrible ordeal. Maria Zhukova was born in June 1957 of the year, six months before Nikita Khrushchev at the October plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU removed Marshal of Victory from the post of Minister of Defense and deprived of all posts. For Georgy Konstantinovich it was a heavy blow. Marshal was then 60 years old. In the family circle, he said that his wife, her love and the birth of her daughter helped him to stand up.

The book by Maria Georgievna "Marshal Zhukov - my father", first published in 2006 year and since then reprinted many times, was for many the answer to the question of what kind of commander actually was who led our country to Victory. After all, the marshal has a special destiny - beloved by the people, he was not only persecuted while alive, but was also slandered after death.

“We should be grateful to those who fought and won”


- Maria Georgievna, in all reference books it is written that Georgy Konstantinovich was born on December 1 of the year 1896. We will celebrate its 120 anniversary 2 December. Why?

- Because so the father himself celebrated his birthday. In my book, Marshal Zhukov - My Father, I touched on this topic. In the second half of 80, we received a call from some higher authorities - it seems from the Central Committee - and they said that now the official date of birth will be the first because, according to some astronomical calculations, the error per day is accumulated per day, and now it is necessary to fix. I do not know whose initiative it was, but it was done that way.

We also have a church calendar, and it is unshakable: Pope was born on December 2 and was baptized according to church canons, on the eighth day, which fell on December 9, when the memory of St. George the Victorious is celebrated, in honor of which he received his name. For Orthodox people, my argument will be clear, for non-believers, references to the church calendar do not say anything, but it may be that the fact that the father himself celebrated his second birthday was significant for them.

- In recent years, several television series have appeared, among the characters of which there is Marshal Zhukov. I want to ask you about them - because for many they have become a source of, if not knowledge, then impressions of stories, especially since they are periodically repeated. In the "Elimination" of your father played Vladimir Menshov, in the TV series "Zhukov" - Alexander Baluev. As far as the creators of these films tried to stick to the story?

- Not at all tried. I remember how one of the creators of the film with Baluev said: we are not obliged to adhere to historical truth, because this is a feature film. Nobody showed us the script. Shortly after the premiere, I learned that this role was initially offered to Nikolai Gubenko, but after reading the script, he refused for reasons of principle. I thanked him for that.

Of course, both of these roles are very far from the image of the father, which is in my memory. He was not at all like that. My sisters Era and Ella did not like it either.

I remember how I was upset, indignant, I read reviews on the Internet, of which there were many, the whole range, ranging from laudatory and ending with the most abusive, but what I understood was: in some unknown way, the Lord so broke everything in the minds of many people that they all I saw only good qualities, without paying attention to the distortions that I, as a daughter, noticed.

I, of course, have a heightened perception of everything connected with the name of the father, because for me he is a very high ideal.

My mother, Galina Alexandrovna, was the same - I remember how when we were already sick with my dad, we went to watch movies about the war, and she always earnestly said: “My husband is not shown very much!” - worrying that he was not paid his due. Zhukov was blackened and periodically recalled about him, but his mother was unchanged in her opinion that in the films he was presented inadequate to the contribution he made to the Victory.

- In your book, you can read amazing, heartfelt words written about Marshal Zhukov by Archimandrite Cyril (Pavlov): “The seal of the election is felt throughout his life ... God's providence chose him to be the savior of Russia in the difficult time of trials. It’s not for nothing that Georgiy Konstantinovich is loved by all Russian people as his national hero. ”

We also know that after the war the people are the people! - Called him Marshal of Victory. Do you remember examples showing the popular worship of Marshal Zhukov?


- I lived with my father 17 for years. On the one hand, this, of course, is very small. On the other hand, enough to see a lot. He was out of work, he did not need to go to the service, he spent more time at home working on the memories. I remember how my father communicated with people who came to him, to what kind of respect, respect and boundless love they had for his father.

In 1965, his disgrace virtually ceased, he was invited to celebrate the 20 anniversary of the Victory in the Kremlin, and, from that time until 1969, when he fell ill, his father went to the public: he lectured, gave reports on the war in universities, ministries. I remember how once we went to the exhibition, where his bust of sculptor Viktor Doumanian was presented. The father was recognized always and everywhere, although he walked in civilian clothes, though, sometimes he wore four stars of the Hero of the Soviet Union (he was the only four Heroes).

And from everywhere people began to run up to him, immediately the police came from somewhere, began to make a cordon so that they would not dare, they started pushing me away from my parents, I remember how my mother dragged my hand out of the crowd and shouted to the policeman: “This is Masha ! This is our daughter! ”

I was nine years old, I was a little scared, but I think my father was all pleased. Because, no matter how hard the authorities tried to push him somewhere, there were times when he was not even called to ceremonial events on a particular date (I remember his letter to Brezhnev, in which he said bitterly that he was ostracized and they are not invited anywhere), in spite of this, the people remembered and loved him.

I remember another, a little funny incident. Every year, usually at the end of September, we went to rest in Gagra, where a beautiful white mansion on the mountain was provided to our father. Like all men on vacation, my father walked in a short-sleeved shirt, summer trousers, sandals — and still the people recognized him, always came up, spoke warm, enthusiastic words: people who were young or had personally communicated with him at the front, they either saw him from afar, or heard the words “where Zhukov is victory there” (there was such a saying from the Red Army men) and were inspired by his presence at the front.

Every morning, my father went down to the Soyuzpechat kiosk behind the newspapers — he always liked to be in the know. Sometimes fresh newspapers were brought later. Once he sat on a bench and waited, a man sat down next to him and complained: “They say that Marshal Zhukov and his family are resting here. I wanted so much to look at him, but everything is not working. ” They talked for half an hour, finally, they brought up the newspapers, and, rising and looking around, that person sighed again: “Tomorrow we will have to leave - so I probably will not see Zhukov. It's a pity! ”“ No, no, ”my father objected,“ You have already seen and talked! ”He gasped, oh, how couldn’t he recognize!

In this enthusiastic devotion and love for my father, I grew up and never once saw that the people showed malice and injustice towards him. But there was another.

In 1969, the epic novel The Blockade by Alexander Chakovsky was published. My father read all the news and especially about the war. I took a notebook with my father’s notes today and, if I may, I’ll read it. Here is what he writes about the "Blockade", on points:

“1. There were no minutes of meetings of the armed forces of the front, and there were no meetings themselves. What happened? Sharing opinions at lunch or at lunch.

2. Commander, Clement Yefremovich Voroshilov, and then I lived in Zhdanov's apartment in the courtyard of Smolny.

3. A.Zhdanov: At night I always went to sleep in a bomb shelter. There was no work done there, there were never maps on the walls, flags — all the more. A.A. lauded The Politburo evaluated his activity differently then.

4. Fedyuninsky during the Soviet-Finnish war was in Mongolia (Mongolia) - commanded 82 SD.

Why I remembered Chakovsky - maybe this is not such an important episode, but it shows a lot. When my father invited Chakovsky to himself and expressed his bewilderments to him - and he had fundamental remarks - Chakovsky didn’t like it very much: he behaved, it seemed to me, arrogant. And when his father was no more, he wrote a large article, conveying the opposite: that it was not he who justified himself before Zhukov, but Zhukov before him.

Such unpleasant moments have always been and still will be, and it was Archimandrite Cyril (I revere him very much and are infinitely grateful that he took me in his cell several times) gave me a tuning fork attitude to such things: to love and dislike for my father. “And with respect to your father, and with respect to you,” said the priest, “there will be many detractors. But those who experience love will be incomparably greater. ” And when I see some attacks against my father, lies and sometimes diabolical anger, I remember the words of Father Cyril. He's gone through the whole war. His cell manager once told me: Father Cyril has two board books that he always reads. The first is the Gospel, and the second is “Memories and reflections” by Marshal Zhukov.

- I will quote once again your book. "And in the 20 complex century, the Lord Jesus Christ invisibly dwelt in the hearts of the generals." Inspiration - how important is it for commanders and state people in general? Sometimes it seems that it is quite enough, so to speak, professional qualities.

- Father’s beloved saying “trust in God, but do not make it yourself” shows that the Lord helps people and enlightens them and instructs them and gives them strength, both physical and spiritual, and leads to the goal, but also man is also not an extra. The Lord sees the heart of a person, his aspiration, his desire, his efforts on the chosen path and gives his help accordingly.

I thought a lot about my father's life. Of course, much remains unknown and incomprehensible to me, and I think this is normal - there is always some secret of the person.

But look, for example, such an episode: during the battle of Moscow, when the enemy approached close, and the situation was desperate, the father did not sleep for 11 days. And, of course, the Lord gave him strength.

Now, after all, you can write and say anything: long ago those people who were with the father at the front, his associates — marshals, generals, officers, died. Many of them left their memories of Zhukov — I don’t know why they aren’t republished — but I remember evenings after his death, where they all spoke, and many of them spoke about intuition, about the gift of foresight, about the decision how to act in this or that case came to Zhukov as insight.

He said: “I have always felt that I need people, that I constantly need them”.

- Should? He said - should?

- Yes! It was his life setting.

And speaking of the relationship between the human will and the will and the help of God, we can probably say that, seeing the ability to realize their duty to others in this way, the readiness for sacrificial service and such a man’s determination, the Lord Himself leads him.

I can talk about my father endlessly. I remember him and as a loving dad - the way he was at home. And he was awesome. The parental warmth that he gave me, his love and tenderness are always with me and always warm me. Sometimes I miss him very much.

Recently, I spoke with my friend about parenting. The topic was this: it happens that when children in adolescence form their addictions and tastes, parents take this strictly and intolerantly. And I began to remember how it was with my father.

When I was born, he was 60 years old - he was a wise man. At the country house in Sosnovka, where we lived, there was a huge “bandura” - a radio receiver on high legs, and on top under the lid - a turntable. In those years, the magazine "Krugozor" was published with such flexible blue plates - perhaps, remember, and on them - new items: "The Beatles", "Simon ...

- and Garfunsel ".

“My friends and I cut them out and listened.” It was the seventh-eighth-ninth class. By 10-20 once twist different records. Come to father: "Dad! Come on - I really like the song, I want to lose it to you, and you listen! ”I plant it next to this player and look for the Beatles, for example. "Dad, how are you?" - "Well, I liked it." Although, maybe he didn’t like it very much ...

At the same time, he was quite strict: love, after all, does not exclude strictness. He vigilantly watched with whom I communicate, and cut off the evil influence.

There was one girl — my age-mate — who sometimes stayed with us at the dacha, and one day, after she left, her father told me: “Masha, you shouldn’t communicate with her”. “How is it, shouldn't it ?!” “Yes, after she leaves, you become different” (I started to cheat). But how I defended her then, resenting my father! And now, already knowing the further life of this girl, I understand that my father was right.

He knew what he was saying.

- It is thanks to him that you came to faith?

“Shortly before his death, he put me next to him and said:“ I will soon die, but from the next world I will watch you and come to you in a difficult moment. ” Many times later, I recalled this conversation, pondered over his words - it was with them that he spread the bridge for me from mortal life to eternal life.

I remember how I met hieromonk Tikhon (Shevkunov) - it happened in January 1992 in the workshop of sculptor Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Klykov. By that moment, I had already been baptized - I had been going to this for a long time and consciously - and for many years I had two questions in myself that I did not have an answer to. First, my father was burned against his will, and I heard from someone that the soul was suffering from this, and I wanted to find out if this was true.

The second question that worried me was probably more than one year - what do the above words of the father mean, that he will be watching me from the other world? How can a priest explain this? But apparently, I was dumbfounded so easily in the church to go to the priest and talk to him about it. And then there was such an opportunity - Father Tikhon came to Klykov and immediately arranged for a sincere conversation.

I asked him about the words of his father, he replied: "They say that as an Orthodox Christian he believed in the immortality of the soul, and you should pray for him." And he added that a group of officers came to the Donskoy Monastery, of which he was then, ordered a commemoration of Marshal Zhukov. “They pray for him,” Father Tikhon said so meaningfully that I understood: he, too, has something to do with it.

When asked if his father’s soul suffers from being burned (and he wanted to be buried in the ground, in a Christian way, but even the request of close relatives — I then called Brezhnev — was not taken into account), Father Tikhon replied that it was not true, pointing to many Christian martyrs who were also burned.

“Then, in the nineties, it was not easy for you — something they just didn't start writing about Marshal Zhukov.” Why did this happen?

- Our enemies needed to destroy the self-consciousness of our people. Destroy spiritual supports, braces, if you want.

History shows that the people are not mistaken when choosing their heroes - although, of course, there may be some discrepancies in the details. When I was working on a book about Alexander Suvorov, I met with the fact that there are various legends, stories that differ in some particulars, but the most important thing is the spirit.

And the people always felt it - who deserved to remain in the people's memory in spirit, from whom it is necessary to take an example.

And we all tried to prove with this slander that, you say, you read these people, put them on a pedestal, but in vain. And everyone had to stick some terrible label. Then there was this set of myths about Zhukov, which can be counted on the fingers.

And this process has not ended and will never end, although in 90-s we were tried to convince us that Russia has no enemies, only friends are around. But the whole history shows that we have always had enemies, and according to the well-known expression of Alexander III, Russia has only two allies - this is its army and navy.

Call things by their proper names: we are faced with slander. Let's list these myths.

Myth number one - Zhukov "fought not by decreasing, but by number." "Butcher". We agreed to the fact that the soldiers allegedly called Zhukov a "hearse." Like, where Zhukov would not come to the front, - and he used to come to the front line before the attack, he personally checked everything, even crept in a crawl, was not afraid, and once almost fell under a mine, was seriously contused, - everywhere big losses. When I first read it, to put it mildly, I was very surprised.

Think about it yourself - to say that the word “hearse” was present in the vocabulary of the front-line soldiers during the war years is absolutely impossible. This is a highly specialized word. That is, it is clear that this was invented in 90-e years and thrown by some trolls.

Another accusation - Zhukov took out trophies from Germany. Recently, by chance — friends called — on TVC she saw the story about Zhukov: it said that Konev, and now it was proved, there were more losses than Zhukov — this is just to dispel the myth, that many soldiers were killed, then they still brought about the "trophies".

And although on the topic of "trophies" everything seems to have already been said, facts are given - including his explanatory note stating that the cars with furniture were going to equip state summer cottages of MGB - no, all the same: the historian Yury Zhukov sits and tells about 17 cars ... Not for himself, my father tried!

Or a story with a portrait of Vasily Yakovlev: allegedly Zhukov ordered to hang it in a prominent place in the museum of the Armed Forces. Oh my God! Zhukov didn’t have been at that time before - 45-46 year, Victory, he is the head of the Soviet military administration in Germany. What did he order a portrait to portray himself beloved? Thought about who and where his portrait will hang?

Do you know where this is all from? The materials of the October plenum of the Central Committee 1957 of the year - the very one in which Khrushchev removed his father from the post of Minister of Defense. Now they are declassified, you can read - I mean that Zhukov "portrayed himself" in the portrait in the likeness of St. George. I think - how much is already possible?

Another myth is the words that he allegedly said to Eisenhower: "women still give birth." We have a translation of Eisenhower's memoirs in our library - father made a special copy - but these words are not there!

By the way, this myth was also debunked from the other side - and in fact they wrote a lot that Zhukov “sent infantry to the minefields” and spat on “great losses”. And veterans were outraged and said, among other things, that human weight is not enough for an anti-tank mine to explode. This myth is born in the same place as the others.

When I first heard the phrase "women still give birth," it shocked me. After all, the father was not a cynical man! But only a cynic could tell such a thing, to whom human lives are absolutely indifferent

But I am very pleased with the historian Alexey Isaev. For many years he has been studying this topic, writing books about Zhukov. And here he, in particular, says - look at the orders!

Slanderers are counting on an audience that judges superficially and will not seek documentary evidence. But there are orders of the father, in which reality is reflected.

How did Zhukov stand above other memoirists when he wrote his memoirs? He very seriously worked with documents. Many copies of his orders were preserved in my archive; they were made for him in the Podolsk archive. I remember, for example, one of his orders - it seems, the beginning of 42 of the year - which says that an irresponsible attitude towards saving people should be burned with a hot iron. A lot of such orders can be given.

Slanderers do not cite references to their sources - because they are not.

And, thank God, there are such decent historians as Aleksei Isaev, who are capable of such as Rezun, with millions of copies issuing through his false books, to answer reasonably.

Isaev is a remarkable historian, also intuitive, as if he was acquainted with Zhukov, and this is also a gift, and a rare one.

- And what would you advise to read or see people who are confused by these myths?

- Those who do not say what they believed, but were embarrassed by them, the books by Alexei Isaev will be very useful - he perfectly dispels these myths. And to those people who want to find out how Zhukov really was, I advise you to watch the interview recorded in our country house by Konstantin Simonov in 1966 year - this record is on the Internet. Thank God, this film has been preserved.



Then Simonov wrote in the memoirs that on the eve of Zhukov went fishing - he was an avid fisherman - and twisted his leg. And in this record there are frames, as they walk along the path near our summer house - the father in a gray jacket, in his cap - and, frankly, when I look at them, I admire them. Firstly, he is in perfect physical shape for this age - after all, he was already 70 - and secondly, he was glad to see his face, always so enlightened.

And it is clear what kind of heartache he experiences when he talks about the war. He recalls the episode that occurred when he was appointed commander of the Western Front. The desperate situation was then near Moscow. And in some village, seeing a woman in the ashes — she bombed the house — he asked her for a way (he was looking for the front headquarters). The woman did not answer, but the neighbor said: do not ask her, she has such grief, her grandchildren died!

You can blame him as much as you like for being a “butcher,” he did not spare the soldiers and so on. But look, with what pain he talks about this woman!

He let human pain pass through his heart. After all, only when he died, we learned that he had seven or eight heart attacks - such were the scars on the heart. And he only twice lay in the hospital with a heart attack - the rest, obviously, suffered on his feet.

- Tell us about the inscription that he made for you on his book.

“In the first edition, it was this - a thick brick in a red dust jacket, which, by the way, veterans valued most of all,” he wrote to me: “In the hope that you will become a worthy patriot of our Motherland.”

These are not only the words of the father - this is our whole life. And home, and school education, and education - everything was permeated with patriotism, that is, love for the motherland. Now, thank God, I see that this is returning, although for many years love for the Motherland was in every way possible denied, and the word “patriotism” in general almost became abusive.

Probably, before leaving this dedication, the father thought about the need to write particularly important words - as a kind of spiritual testament to his daughter. And of course, they mean a lot to me and mean a lot.

But the most important thing that teaches us is an example. Here in front of me was an example of a man who infinitely loved his homeland. No matter how pathetic these words may sound, but it is. He was driven by love for his people and for his homeland.

As the Gospel says: "By their fruits you shall know them" (Matt. 7: 16). Its fruits and deeds will remain for centuries - this is a victory in the war. And not only that ... But this is the main thing.

In his book “Memories and Reflections” - he talked a lot about this in the last years of his life - he writes that again there may be a threat for our country, and now we see it: “One should never forget that, as long as imperialism exists, the possibility of a new world war remains. Gunpowder, as they say, must be constantly dry. And we are not the ones who gave all that they could in past battles, but the new young generation is the hope of the people. My word to you young people - be always vigilant! The day of delay in the last war cost us very dearly. Now the score can go for seconds».

And further: “...Ex-soldiers live among you. Treat them with care. Many times I saw the soldiers rise to the attack. It is not easy to rise when the air is permeated with deadly metal. But they were rising. But many of them barely recognized the taste of life. Nineteen or twenty years is the best age for a person. All ahead. And for them, very often there was only a German dugout in front of them, spewing machine-gun fire. Of course, they also knew the joy of victory in battle, military friendship, mutual revenue on the battlefield, a sense of satisfaction from the consciousness that they fulfill the sacred mission of defending the Fatherland. The Soviet soldier then endured severe trials. And today the old wound spoke, health is naughty. The former front-line soldier will not complain to you - not that leaven of character. Be yourself helpful. Without offending pride, be sensitive and respectful - this is a very small price to pay for everything they have done for you in 41, 42, 43, 44 and 45.».

And that's what I thought: the father calls us to be grateful.

I find it difficult to judge military operations, talk about military history. But one thing I know for sure: that we all, and I first of all, should be grateful to those who fought and won. This is the most noble feeling. It applies to all who have defended the world for us.

Anastasia Rakhlina talked with Maria Georgievna Zhukova
Author:
Originator:
http://www.pravoslavie-nord.ru/2007/2/15452
55 comments
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  1. midshipman
    midshipman 4 December 2016 15: 35
    +23
    A lot is connected with the name of this outstanding commander. The main thing is victory in the Great Patriotic War. I published in "VO" the essay "Crisis month in the defense of the city." In it I tried to show his role in the defense of Leningrad. I think I succeeded. During the 10 days that he was already in the blockaded city of G.K. Zhukov managed to build the defense of the city according to a different scheme. The orders prepared by Zhdanov and Voroshilov for the explosion of industrial facilities and ships of the BKVMF were destroyed .. My father in Leningrad created railway artillery. She ensured accurate defeat of tanks at Pulkovo. The Nazis could not even group two tanks for attacks. Father died on December 27, 1941. But he left me and my mother in an apartment on Nevsky Prospekt (we lived there) three letters unsent to us in Siberia. I remember them. Then they got lost, like his gold watch. Apparently the father felt his doom. The last letter was dated December 20, 1941. Low bow to G.K. Zhukov. I have the honor.
    1. vovanpain
      vovanpain 4 December 2016 16: 21
      +24
      No matter how all sorts of cutters and their admirers are perverted, for me and my family GK Zhukov Marshal of Victory!
      The former front-line soldier will not complain to you - not that leaven of character. Be careful yourself. Do not insult your pride, be sensitive and respectful - this is a very small fee for everything they did for you in 41, 42, 43, 44 and 45. "
      Eternal memory to them and great gratitude from our descendants living now.
  2. kouldoom
    kouldoom 4 December 2016 15: 41
    +19
    although I was born after the collapse of the USSR, I am still proud
  3. avia1991
    avia1991 4 December 2016 15: 59
    +16
    Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov - Marshal of VICTORY!
    And that's it. soldier
  4. taseka
    taseka 4 December 2016 16: 09
    +10
    "Be considerate yourself. Don't offend your pride, be sensitive and respectful - this is a very small price to pay for everything they did for you at 41, 42, 43, 44 and 45." - Eternal glory to the fallen and alive for the freedom and independence of our Motherland !!!
  5. cap
    cap 4 December 2016 16: 21
    +6
    What is there to add! We will remember while we are alive, and we will pass it on to the children.
    Quote: avia1991
    Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov - Marshal of VICTORY!
    And that's it. soldier
  6. cedar
    cedar 4 December 2016 16: 28
    +10
    A hybrid war is being waged against Russia to destroy the country and its peoples. Complete enslavement is the least that shines on us. This war is primarily informational and psychological. The calculation of enemies for complete control of the consciousness of the people and, above all, the managerial elite. They are afraid of fire like the appearance of new Zhukovs in the Army and new Stalin at the head of the State. That is why all their infamous forces direct enemies to discredit Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov and Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin. The creatures sense that retribution is inevitable.
    See the root.
  7. vanavatny
    vanavatny 4 December 2016 16: 49
    +5
    and so we study history: according to the emotional stories of the professional daughter of a military leader, can we someday learn not to smear with black and white, then drag on a pedestal, then overthrow it?
    1. Cat
      Cat 4 December 2016 17: 15
      +7
      These are emotional stories of the daughter of the commander! Daughters of the hero of World War II and the symbol of Victory! Her words are slurred strokes of history, our history and smart people will see another image, the image of which my grandfathers and great-grandfathers were proud! One of them took Berlin, and the second defended Moscow.
      My generation did not demolish monuments; it is a reproach to you that you are bending and bending now. We are former pioneers who have never been tired of Komsomol members who have already looked at how easily the monuments and ideas on which you nurtured us died. How the state in which we were born died. For many of us, this was a lesson.
      For 12 years now, both of my grandfathers have died, and this is my pain and my grief that I once again did not talk to them. Therefore, I am dear to those who personally knew Marshal Zhukov. Man "screw" one of many (see Stalin's toast to victory) who forged the victory of our people in a hard time.
      Respectfully! Cat!
      1. vanavatny
        vanavatny 4 December 2016 17: 50
        +2
        you can say all this at a rally, and I will pat you first, and historical science should not be generously filled with alphabet and screams on the basis of my own convictions, based on the school course of history, any year of publication and authorship, they stopped counting it for science anyway. And why did you imagine that you could rebuke me? did not become a Komsomol member, but remained an ardent pioneer? before waving slogans and bursts of emotions, read ,, memories and thoughts ,, then read about them and so on, I’ll say scary: even read the cutter and read Grechko about it, the passage through the Carpathians ,, (God forbid) and 100500 more books, and then you can add strokes from Maria Georgievna, otherwise we’ll study the history of the terrible war by konofilmy and the cries of unknown narrow-minded specialists whose salary is unknown. My grandfather Mikhail Petrovich died in 1987 leaving: a red banner, for courage, Russian art. 1, for victory over Germany, Japan, for Keniksberg, 2 for military merit and a labor veteran, of his dead brothers he found the grave of only one near Keniksberg, my grandmother died 11 years ago (they met in the war), in general, study history, not history, or even generation through generation, we will drag monuments from place to place, without understanding, meaning and sense hi
        1. Cat
          Cat 4 December 2016 22: 01
          +3
          About the story for historians. To be honest, the whole fraternity is divided into several categories:
          Some dig - archaeologists.
          Others read - a mixture of archivist and philologist.
          Still others consider it a mixture of an archivist with an accountant.
          And the last category - they defended themselves on the history of the CPSU and, apart from "licking saucers" in the desired direction, they did not and do not know how.
          The last 25 years have been out of work. Small land is not relevant, it is too late to assign 1500 years to Kiev, counting how much the party workers consumed milk in grams of non-camilfo. And this brotherhood rushed to defend their exclusivity, to paint "objective history". And if literacy is "zero", then in 1995, when the Federal Law "On the Days of Aoin Glory" was published, it was mentioned on all dates where possible! We clashed with the national elites of Russia, where it seems to be not necessary! For the sake of everyone and everything, they put on "cliches", and so that they would not be destroyed, they "froze historical science" with the thesis, only we all know. At the same time, the administrative resource is rottenness of all those who think differently. And especially the "eyewitnesses" whose memoirs began to appear.
          It was because of this academbracy in 1990 that schoolchildren studied according to the textbooks of Frenchman Werth, if I am not mistaken.
          It is precisely because of their position that alternative specialists Nasonov and Fomenko came into history.
          Because of their fault in school textbooks, the bedlam was going to the last, because they fed from different tables and from different owners.
          I will not give the names of academicians and corresponding members of the Academy of Sciences with their dissertations on history, the President said for me.
          I will tell only one story - this is biased science. And every stroke is important in it. And when the author takes and begins to write a story, only he decides to use this smear in his story or not. A professional historian will try to cover the event from all sides, but not the fact that those who follow him will have their opposite opinions.
          Example: I quote from memory "The Moscow princes Danilovich were gray nondescript personalities." Who said that? ...... Great Russian historian? ........!
          As for the monuments, you do not need to move them, if they put them up, let them stand. We have obtained the example of neighbors before our eyes.
          Regarding the "hot pioneer", you are the older generation who rocked your native country. It was you who "jumped" in 1991 and 1993. And already in 1995 and 2000 we had to make efforts not to lose what was left.
          Now, at rallies through me, as before, the place of work in two weeks passed up to 5 people, and so 000 months a year. I was reading from the heart, now I dabble. History must be able to love, to love so that the stream feels, that it wants to know more, to read, argue, read again, think, argue, and begin to love it. My deep conviction is that through a love of history, a person becomes a person.
          By grandfathers and great-grandfathers. A deep bow to them for their feat!
          The last memoir! My subjective opinion, any memoirs are a quasistence of subjective opinion, and in history (I agree with you) they must be treated with caution, but any story has the right to life, because this is the opinion of an eyewitness!
          Respectfully! Your cat
          1. vanavatny
            vanavatny 4 December 2016 22: 21
            +3
            I agree that I’ll add the following: history needs to be studied, studied, not taught, reducing everything to a dumb rewriting of what was previously published in an effort to build a career and doesn’t smell like progress, which results in anunaki in stupas and fabrications of exploits in oblivion of real heroism. And I’m not from the older generation, I didn’t ride anywhere in 91 and 93, I was quite young and understood that because of these rams, my career was covered with the state - I remember being in Moscow with a relative-officer and saw a huge line of former people, choking at the first McDonald's - I remember the anger in the eyes of the military and my own rage, by the way, recently the same zhralyn opened somewhere in the north (Irkutsk or somewhere else, I don’t remember) again ... well, what’s their story or memory - only a tough guide hi
            1. vanavatny
              vanavatny 4 December 2016 22: 33
              +4
              PS a couple of years ago I caught sight of a textbook (my friend’s son is a tenth grader) from Sorosovsky garbage, a school mother ... I won’t even describe a textbook because the ban for the mat is not far off, tore, in blue sadness, slander in half and the kid dragged a couple of sensible Encyclopedias from the shelf, forcing to learn inaudible. the guy is now a cadet, by the way (not my merit, they planned it so)
            2. Cat
              Cat 5 December 2016 04: 41
              0
              Sorry for the generalization "jumped"!
              Regards, Your Cat.
          2. Signore Tomato
            Signore Tomato 5 December 2016 18: 05
            +1
            Quote: Kotischa
            Your cat


            Why so illiterate?
  8. German Titov
    German Titov 4 December 2016 17: 29
    +9
    Quote: vanavate
    and so we study history: according to the emotional stories of the professional daughter of a military leader, can we someday learn not to smear with black and white, then drag on a pedestal, then overthrow it?


    As for the "professional daughter of the commander" I "did not understand" something. Excuse me, we didn’t graduate from "Cambridge", only DonGU. In addition to historical sources, I always listened to the stories of my grandfathers (who passed from the western borders of the Union and back (grandfather Ivan) - he just stopped there (to drive the Natsiks, "green caps"). And you don't need to quote Rezun - "The Butcher" and the like Low bows to GK Zhukov, and to all those who died in that war. I have the honor (I support the "Warrant Officer"). We "finish" - what the "grandfathers" did not finish.
    1. vanavatny
      vanavatny 4 December 2016 18: 02
      +2
      where I quoted I didn’t understand, I didn’t read (read) the butcher, but I heard about a cutter from a person who crossed with him before the escape of the aforementioned and I believe that the sentence should be carried out and I repeat that studying history is not studying history stories, caused by the political situation, and the study of factual material, analysis thereof to avoid running in a circle - the only way it reaches some is that smearing with black and white is simply ridiculous. The world will collapse if the thought that Zhukov was not fluffy and infallible, and Maria Georgievna his daughter with all the consequences, penetrates your brain? my world is not there, it’s clear to me that he is only a man, not a monument and his activity needs to be studied, not rallied on the basis of prevailing beliefs
      1. German Titov
        German Titov 4 December 2016 18: 21
        +4
        Rezun you really did not quote, I probably "bent" under emotions. This is in their creations V. Rezun, Zhukova G.K. calls him "The Butcher". The question of the "professional daughter" of the commander, I was more outraged. I hope that you do not doubt its existence. You know, some of the memoirs of "contemporaries" are somewhat reminiscent of "Lenin's log at a subbotnik (when 300 people carried it). According to the book" Memoirs of Beria "I counted about 30 generals who personally arrested Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria (The Flower of Fragrant Prairies (words poet-contemporary) Nevertheless, Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov is a personality.
        1. vanavatny
          vanavatny 4 December 2016 18: 46
          +1
          Well, I have not only a bone in my head, and with the fact that Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, I don’t know how to argue, I don’t feel such a need. About my daughter: I know something about my Grandfather, but if it is something someone will tell me I’ll abruptly commit a criminal offense because this is my Grandfather and I consider it right and worthy, why should I believe that the daughter of the commander loves and respects him less? and why should I believe her stories? check how? Was he affectionate and gentle at home? yes for God's sake what? does it kind of characterize him? and this is already somewhat different: here they give us characterization as a urge to act and the basis of activity, simply replacing everything else, and I’m not talking about my daughter’s words about my father, but about the approach to studying history
  9. zenion
    zenion 4 December 2016 18: 02
    +1
    If Stalin did not understand people. Then, who could understand them? And the trains with the fact that Zhukov did not have time to hand over to the warehouses. The millions of rubles that were so needed after the Victory?
  10. gsnoleg240169
    gsnoleg240169 4 December 2016 18: 24
    +4
    Quote: avia1991
    Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov - Marshal of VICTORY!
    And that's it. soldier

    Zhukov - Marshal of victory. Zhukov is a subordinate of Stalin. Why no one says: STALIN - GENERALISSIMUS OF VICTORY ???
    1. vanavatny
      vanavatny 4 December 2016 18: 31
      +3
      Yes, all the same - Stalin was officially subverted from the pedestal (the last time after 1991), Zhukov, on the contrary, will be decided tomorrow differently - they will change who will remember the impartiality and objectivity in the Academy of Sciences - they have their own troubles there
  11. demotivator
    demotivator 4 December 2016 18: 28
    +10
    Of course, Zhukov is a great commander and an honored marshal with a difficult fate. But, as such, it would not have taken place without I. V. Stalin, whom the Russian Federation today is diligently obliterating from the history of our country. They manage to cut out footage of Stalin even from old Soviet films. I watch our film "Liberation" on Channel 5. Now they are showing. Oha. We started, like, a re-showing. So again, Stalin was cut out from everywhere.
    Critters, the more you blacken Stalin, the more people will read and study him.
    Leviathans damn it.
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 4 December 2016 20: 41
      0
      The war only then began to incline in favor of the USSR when the great Stalin ceased to meddle in military matters. And about Zhukov, Stalin, of course, thanks. For the fact that Zhukov did not kill as many others.
      1. vanavatny
        vanavatny 4 December 2016 23: 01
        0
        Of course, do not take the trouble to recall what position George Konstantinovich held at the time of the death of the cadre army? How long? I literally just removed from the shelf, “memories and reflections,” from 1974 (grandfather was given) I re-read the actions for June 21-22 - you still have questions? Paul Karel can read directly 1 page, this will not solve the questions
        1. Kenneth
          Kenneth 4 December 2016 23: 21
          +3
          Chief of General Staff. And who put in this position a man who did not understand the staff business and honestly admitted this. By the way, there were no people who wanted to refuse this moron, among those who wanted to live, so that he would not ask. So yesterday’s lieutenants commanded divisions after meeting with the first German regiment. Although probably well understood which of them are divisors
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 5 December 2016 06: 12
            +3
            Quote: Kenneth
            By the way, there were no people who wanted to refuse this moron, among those who wanted to live, so that he would not ask

            And there were many who wanted to? Which of the generals at that time was a real professional?
            Quote: Kenneth
            So yesterday’s lieutenants commanded the divisions

            Do you know a lot of lieutenants who commanded divisions?
          2. Uncle Murzik
            Uncle Murzik 5 December 2016 08: 01
            +1
            Kenneth, can you name the names of the lieutenants who commanded the divisions? belay or you are lying as always! lol
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 5 December 2016 05: 34
        +3
        Quote: Kenneth
        when the great Stalin stopped climbing into military matters.

        recourse Pretty strong statement! Are you serious?
  12. sds87
    sds87 4 December 2016 18: 41
    +3
    Well, the daughter stands up for her father. Only I listened to the radio "Moscow speaking" programs with Leonid Volodarsky, who invites real historians like Alexei Isaev and Yuri Zhukov. So none of these people would ever call a historical fact that is not supported by archival data. And if Yuri Zhukov told about 17 carriages, then he read it in the archives. And let Maria Georgievna intercede for her Great Father, but there is no need to whitewash and make an angel out of him. He took out 17 cars, and for whose needs this is the tenth thing. The facts from archived data cannot be easily ignored. And Yuri Zhukov voiced on the air what he found in the archives - that's all. It was not a myth.
    1. mealnik2005
      mealnik2005 4 December 2016 20: 49
      +3
      http://carabaas.livejournal.com/11829964.html
      "As a winner, Zhukov took out 7 carriages with furniture and cultural values ​​from Germany. By the way, it was not only Zhukov who plundered the" capitalist property ", because the tacit" go-ahead "for this was received from above."

      He has 7, you have 17, who is bigger? Maybe we’ll announce the social competition: who will lie more abruptly?
      1. vanavatny
        vanavatny 4 December 2016 21: 00
        +1
        On August 23, 1946, the Minister of the Armed Forces N. Bulganin sent a memo addressed to Stalin, in which it was reported that around 7 Kovel cars were detained near Kovel, in which there were 85 boxes of furniture. When checking the documentation, it turned out that the furniture belongs to Marshal Zhukov. According to the inventory of property that arrived from the city of Chemnitz, in 7 cars were: 194 pieces of furniture for a bedroom, living room, study, kitchen, etc.
        1. Kenneth
          Kenneth 4 December 2016 21: 24
          +3
          There are 7 cars. Gebnya decided to check what was there. And there each one says Zhukov stole. They immediately ran to call Bulganin. Extremely believable
          1. vanavatny
            vanavatny 4 December 2016 21: 32
            +1
            this is only a memorandum, the beginning, but you don’t care, for you it is a matter of faith, at least you, queen of evidence, present - gebnya, what to take from her
            1. Kenneth
              Kenneth 4 December 2016 23: 17
              +2
              And I believe. What was such a note. And even the cars might have been. You, too, can find a bag with gerch in a jacket.
              1. vanavatny
                vanavatny 5 December 2016 00: 07
                0
                depending on who finds wink
        2. Serg65
          Serg65 5 December 2016 06: 24
          +4
          Quote: vanavate
          When checking the documentation, it turned out that the furniture belongs to Marshal Zhukov.

          I will not say for other fronts, but on the 2 Belorussky back in Poland an order came out .... to an ordinary soldier to send a parcel home every Friday! And from Germany, officers up to and including a major were allowed to take out a half-car, to a major general a car! 7 wagons - it's just a reason! By the way, Zhukov, when the SA entered Germany, gave the winner 3 a legitimate day to fill out their stuff bags! Rokossovsky’s order saved my father’s family in distant Minusinsk from starvation, my grandmother changed Polish and German costumes and dresses for bread.
      2. sds87
        sds87 5 December 2016 09: 33
        0
        Quote: mealnik2005
        He has 7, you have 17, who is bigger? Maybe we’ll announce the social competition: who will lie more abruptly?

        Stop, stop, stop - 17 cars - read the article carefully. I took this figure from this article.
  13. cedar
    cedar 4 December 2016 19: 27
    +3
    Quote: zenion
    If Stalin did not understand people. Then, who could understand them? And the trains with the fact that Zhukov did not have time to hand over to the warehouses. The millions of rubles that were so needed after the Victory?


    What's the trouble? 120 years since the birthday of Marshal of the Soviet Union Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, not General Israil Moshe Dayan.
  14. cedar
    cedar 4 December 2016 19: 41
    +10
    Quote: sds87
    He took out 17 cars, and for whose needs - this is the tenth matter. You can’t simply ignore facts from archival data. And Yuri Zhukov voiced on the air what he found in the archives - that's all. It was not a myth.


    This historian did not accidentally voice an interesting fact why Zhukov was awarded the Order of Victory for No. 1? You there look for this "carriage" for an intelligible explanation why Stalin has the Order of Victory for No. 3, and not No. 1?
    And why only three in the USSR: Zhukov, Vasilevsky and Stalin were awarded this order twice?
    1. vanavatny
      vanavatny 4 December 2016 21: 53
      0
      yeah, most interesting - just let the fortune-telling deputies find out on the talk show, and it would be nice for historians to do an objective study of the activities of the chief of the General Staff, front commander, member of the Supreme High Command headquarters, without pluses and minuses, without shouting cheers or down with it - and so about everyone, about the whole war, calmly and in detail, with an understanding of the causes and effects, and only then we will scream, believe I don’t believe, and study not only Zhukov’s memoirs, not only his daughter’s stories, not only trophy materials - where is the fucking academy of sciences? continues to reprint materials composed 60 years ago?
  15. Kenneth
    Kenneth 4 December 2016 20: 37
    +4
    About the junk allegedly taken out by Zhukov from Germany. At least one thought where would Zhukov do this stuff. He lived all his life in government housing, and even the dacha was from the Moscow Region. All these accusations are on the conscience of the GBists and their customer.
    1. vanavatny
      vanavatny 4 December 2016 21: 39
      +2
      yeah, there’s a horoshavin of hours for two divisions - such nonsense doesn’t happen ... and some people pulled what trophies they could, well, there was no way to compactly convert everything into rubles or gold, a person is a person and big shoulder straps rather add cynicism than conscience, Grandfather mine, the major brought a German compass, a Japanese lighter, an ashtray, a mug of unknown metal and a razor, well, a contusion from a keniksberg and a serious wound
      1. Kenneth
        Kenneth 4 December 2016 23: 16
        +2
        For especially talented repeat. Zhukov did not have his own housing. And he could not carry furniture along all over the country. If there was a theme with furniture, then this is a question for the adjutants furnishing his official apartments. Whatever your grandfather brought there. In the USSR, I suspect that in 1946 there was no developed furniture industry. And the furniture, if any, remained where it was placed. That is, it cannot be attributed to profit. But to a stupid and ridiculous collision and a geeky provocation - it is possible. By the way, you're right. The sizes of private indemnity were established by special orders, and by the way were legal. I have Tseikhovsky binoculars at my place, I suppose not on LOMO.
        1. vanavatny
          vanavatny 4 December 2016 23: 48
          0
          and you’re ridiculous: based on your words: Zhukov is not to blame for the fact that stupid Stalin placed him in the position of chief of staff headquarters, which he did not want and did not understand (read Zhukov himself about how they worked for 15-16 hours and who helped him) furniture he, the adjutants set him up, in general, dark forces oppress evilly .. that’s why I urge you to study history, and not to tailor everything to the answer that suits your convictions, sculpting images without flaws and blaming everything on Stalin, who, according to your statement, was afraid to contradict everyone, although even fierce liberals already don’t bear such rubbish ... and what do you keep saying about housing? and what nonsense about furniture? we didn’t do it and therefore ... what the hell didn’t do and that’s not a reason to drag everything you want - they indicted him for indiscretion
          1. vanavatny
            vanavatny 5 December 2016 00: 48
            0
            and also: Konstantin, in July you yourself said that propaganda is good at school, but we are trying to comprehend the story as it was, and not as we were taught it in the interests of parties and personalities., good luck hi
      2. sogdianec
        sogdianec 5 December 2016 00: 57
        +1
        By your logic, if Zhukov can be accused of "immodesty" and, in simple terms, of looting, then your grandfather for "a German compass, a Japanese lighter, an ashtray, a mug of unknown metal and a razor" ...
        They would be ashamed, people went through the war, blood was shed, so that their grandchildren after 70 years would begin to consider who brought so many trophies. If Zhukov had no friction with Stalin, then cars with Zhukov’s good would not have appeared. After the war, Zhukov, with his authority in the army and popular love, was always uncomfortable with the Supreme, Stalin, and then Khrushchev.
        1. vanavatny
          vanavatny 5 December 2016 10: 19
          0
          what’s taken from the battle, it’s holy - have you heard? Do you catch the difference between the compass from the corpse of a dead German officer and the wagons of junk? and why not count the trophies: I’m infinitely far from the liberal snotty notions of war, any war doesn’t warp me from blood-washed lighters and is enough for ardent love and authority - leave it to agitators, and the commander’s inconvenience is caused only by his desire to go wherever they ask, as noted in the case file, and I have nothing to be ashamed of, nor for my ancestors
          1. Walking
            Walking 5 December 2016 13: 41
            +1
            It was necessary to do some compromising evidence on Zhukov, and these cars with furniture appeared, others also took them all out and kept their pardons by the eggs. I left the line of the party, so to speak, and remember these trophies.
  16. Serg65
    Serg65 5 December 2016 07: 40
    +3
    Marshal Zhukov really MARCHED VICTORIES, tough, strong-willed - and that was supposed to be at that difficult time!
    But after the war, the marshal sometimes drifted and drifted seriously! The first photo of the marshal in a white tunic and with all regalia was taken in Leningrad at the bottom of the Navy 14 on July 1957. On this day, Georgy Konstantinovich humiliated the sailors nowhere else.
    Here is the title photo ..

    Here is the full version of this photo

    July month, holiday of the fleet! Dress code for this occasion №1, white top and white bottom! By order of Zhukov, the sailors dressed in uniform No. 3, a black top and a black bottom! Look how admiral Kharlamov, the commander of the Baltic Fleet, is humiliatingly standing just below Zhukov! That day in St. Petersburg there was a heat of + 30 degrees, the young sailors in a full dress fainted.
    1. Walking
      Walking 5 December 2016 13: 46
      0
      So the uniform is set by the fleet commander, or Zhukov personally gave the order how to dress admirals.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 5 December 2016 14: 00
        +2
        Quote: Hiking
        Zhukov personally gave the order how to dress admirals.

        Personally, Zhukov! Everything is in black, and here again I am in white !!!
  17. Altona
    Altona 5 December 2016 10: 08
    +1
    - Let's be reconciled, red. Here is a board to Kolchak and Mannerheim
    - Ok, where are the boards to Stalin and Beria?
    - To put executioners and vampires boards? Never!

    ------------------------------------
    A little off topic, but nonetheless ...
    1. vanavatny
      vanavatny 5 December 2016 13: 55
      0
      absolutely in topic hi
  18. sogdianec
    sogdianec 5 December 2016 15: 10
    0
    Quote: Altona
    - Let's be reconciled, red. Here is a board to Kolchak and Mannerheim
    - Ok, where are the boards to Stalin and Beria?
    - To put executioners and vampires boards? Never!

    ------------------------------------
    A little off topic, but nonetheless ...

    Do not distort. From the point of view of the patriot of Russia, the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire - Mannerheim is an enemy and a traitor. And it does not depend on the color of beliefs: red or white.
    The antagonist to Kolchak will be the Bolshevik leadership of the country and the Red Army during the Civil War, and, of course, Lenin himself. Monuments and streets of Lenin are in every Russian city.
    Stalin managed to do what Kolchak could only dream about — to destroy the top of the Red Army. Bronstein, Tukhachevsky, Blucher, Egorov, Yakir, Uborevich, the list goes on.