"Tiger" vs "Iveco" - personal observations

52

Over the past few years, the Ministry of Defense of Russia "nightmare" of Russian manufacturers of weapons and military equipment, pointlessly and rather vaguely accusing them of either the insufficient quality of the manufactured equipment, or the fact that the proposed MO models do not meet the "modern" requirements, then " too "expensive. In fact, all the weapons and equipment offered by Russian manufacturers for the native MO, are created in strict accordance with the requirements and standards that the MO sets for such products, according to the specifications issued by the MO, which are checked and confirmed during testing. The quality and prices are monitored by the military acceptance institute — that is, direct representatives of the MOs sitting directly at the plants, checking the conformity of the manufactured products to the TU, monitoring the quality, having the right and the ability to check the level of costs and prices, indicating where and from whom to buy components. Without the signature of the military representative, not one, not even the smallest change can be made to the design. Their signatures are also on financial documents - military representatives "accept" or "do not accept" the expenses imposed by enterprises. So what could be the claims to the industry after all this?


"Tiger-6A" with enhanced armor protection


Yes, in our opinion, the institution of military acceptance in a market economy is an anachronism, an atavism of the socialist system in the production and procurement of weapons. It is thanks to the preservation of this institution that the processes of modernizing technology are being held back, there are excesses in terms of the nomenclature and quality of equipment and equipment of equipment, the cost of products is overestimated. A couple of examples to understand the problem.


The Tiger and Iveco rye sites on REA-2011 were close by


Example one: the designer in the serial model of BTT wants to replace the lamp with the old incandescent lamp with a modern, more economical and cheaper LED. However, he cannot do this without the permission of the military representative, and the military representative, in turn, will not give such permission, because the new lamp has not been formally tested for compliance with the requirements of the Russian Ministry of Defense, has not been tested, has not been certified. But, let's say, the designer really wants to replace the lamp, the sample 40-50-xx of the last century, with a modern energy-efficient product - in this case, through his manual, he can go to the manufacturer of the new lamp and offer him to undergo appropriate certification. The luminaire manufacturer is pleased with the emergence of a new consumer. He is ready to certify his product accordingly, but here the legitimate question arises: "And who will pay for certification?"


"Lynx" - aka "Iveco" LMV


The fact is that the cost of certification costs XXXXXXX rubles, and of course it will affect the price. The manufacturer of lighting fixtures is ready to take on these expenses, provided that at least XXXXXXX units are purchased annually from him. Accordingly, he offers the customer - the manufacturer of BTT three options. Variant 1 - OK, I agree to certify and supply you with lamps at the same initial price, but you must buy from me annually in quantities of XXXXXXX units;


"Lynx" - rear view


Option 2 - I do not care how much you will buy from me, but pay the full cost of certification; Option 3 - I pass the certification at my own expense, you buy exactly as much as you need to complete the production program, but the price will be market and, accordingly, will include the costs of certification. The manufacturer of the BTT rejects the first two options automatically - it has no money to pay for certification of someone’s products, and this, by and large, is not necessary in FIG. Calculations begin: how many such lamps are needed annually, and what will be their price for option No. XXUMX. The product requires 3 of such lamps, how many products the MO will order, it is known only to him. Perhaps, as in previous years, it will be on 3 machines per year, but again it is not known how many years such purchases will continue - maybe, like under the last contract, 100 of the year, maybe 3 years, or maybe they will not exist at all. What to do? Well, let's say 10pcs. x 3 products x 100 of the year = 3 fixtures. Then the price, subject to certification, will be ХХр (initial cost) + ХХХХХХХ / 900, i.e. somewhere XX + XXXY - just "space"! Thus, sound thought turns out to be buried.


"Lynx" - "Iveco" LMV MEDEVAC


Example two is shorter and simpler. There is plant A, which produces tractors and armored vehicles. And there, and there in the design applies a rubber hose for hydraulics with absolutely identical parameters. There are three plants B, C, D, producing these hoses in huge quantities, competing with each other, and therefore forced to raise the quality and lower prices, but these plants operate exclusively in the civilian sector and do not have military missions, which is also one of the factors reducing costs, and there is a factory E, which also produces the same hoses, but the military representative is sitting there, because orders for "military" hoses are at least, their price is 5-10 times higher than


Body "Lynx" - "nurse" - MEDEVAC


for similar, and better, but "civilian" hoses at plants B, C and D. Plant A buys hoses for its tractors at plants B, C and D by competition, has, therefore, high-quality and cheap bundle, but for his BTT products, he is forced to buy where the military representative indicates. And the military representative can only point to plant E, because only there hoses go through military acceptance, and nevermind that there is a more expensive time in 10! Moreover, the military representative of plant A is not concerned, but the supplier of this plant is far from FIG. For him, this is a concrete headache, for having received the bill from the plant E, he must endorse him in the service of economic security, where SBShnik still needs to prove that


And it is clean, not yet "obrusachenny" IVECO M40E15 WM


By purchasing the same hoses, but 10's overpriced times at factory E, you are not a thief. What is the difference in market conditions? The manufacturer must produce competitive products and be responsible for the quality: he did not develop a model of the BTT as a necessary resource, - penalty box to the manufacturer. Our Defense Ministry is now trying to act using just such methods, but at the same time it does not refuse from military acceptance. Yes, it is now mercilessly reduced, but for some reason they are not in a hurry to radically abandon this deterrent to the development of defense production under market conditions.


IVECO M40E15 WM Personnel carrier


The crown "trick" of the Russian MO in recent times is to demand from the BTVT samples those qualities that this MO did not originally order - the product completely, in all 100% meets the requirements of the TOR issued by the MO, but the MO turns up the nose - we don’t need to! There is no logic to it at all!

Thus, the Russian Ministry of Defense frightens the defense sector with the market, and unscrews its hands by far from market methods. "Give us the cost price, we will check it, let you add 10-15, and maybe sometimes (just want to add" if you behave yourself ") and all 20% profitability - that’s what the fair price will be", - so they say Now the managers of our Russian MO, forgetting that the price calculation formula “cost + profitability” is the norm of the Soviet, not the market economy! The actions of our Defense Ministry in the procurement of weapons are very reminiscent of the methods of work of the "brothers" of the "dashing 90's", which, in fact, is not surprising, knowing who is at the head of this department.


IVECO M40E15 WM - and what is better than UAZ?


The case of confrontation between armored cars "Tiger" and "Iveco" is a concrete example of the "elephant" behavior on the market of our MO.
The technical capabilities of both machines I personally happened to watch at the exhibition "REA-2011". I would be glad to believe the statements of the leadership of the Russian Defense Ministry about the alleged shortcomings of the "Tiger" and the same alleged advantages of "Iveco" if I had not seen it with my own eyes! In training races, "Iveco" tritely stuck on a strip imitating the real off-road with rocky boulders. There are many such places, and especially there, where the danger of the outbreak of hostilities is great - the mountainous regions of the Caucasus and Central Asia.


In the cab "Iveco" - "Lynx" terribly crowded


"Tiger-M" with the domestic engine passed the entire route without comment. After that, already in the official program of the exhibition, Iveco rode around most of the obstacles that the Tiger had easily overcome before. I did not make accurate calculations, but "by eye", he traveled such obstacles to 2 / 3. Moreover, the car was driven by a “firm” Italian crew, since somehow there was no reason for them to put their car in a bad light. Dear reader, if you were not at the RUSSIAN EXPO ARMS at that moment, then you lost a lot - the people in the stands, thousands of people, just literally giggled from laughter, seeing how Iveco famously, at a good pace, with remarkable dynamics obstacles! Those who were there and all this also, as I saw, will not let me lie and will confirm my words.










It was here that “Iveco” - “Lynx” got stuck on the training run. More he did not stick here, and the "Tiger" is calm



That's how this obstacle passes "Tiger" ...



... and so "Iveco" - "Lynx"


As for the "Tiger" ... well, he, too, I must say, not everything was smooth on the track. Once, very slowly climbing onto some kind of obstacle (now I’m not sure which one, but because of a hill (there are several of them on the track)), he almost stood at the top ... did not die, but just got up, it was obvious that something is missing for him - maybe torque, maybe inertia, maybe something else ... The crew of the "Tiger" did not lose: squeezed the clutch, released the brake - the car rolled back. Here they gave gas so much that it seemed that the armored car did not notice any obstacles this time - he just flew over, jumped over it. The second time, jumping over the obstacle "a la" foundation block, our "Tigrusha" painfully made a face with concrete over the front overhang: blow - boom! - the gnashing of metal - dust in the form of a concrete crumb, in the stands exclamation: “Oooooo!”, and on the faces of a grimace, it was as if everyone were immediately torn off without anesthesia. But nothing ... then I specifically approached the car - I looked at the bottom - no dents, no zamyatin - only the paint was torn off! But as for the fact that Iveco’s “bottom”, it clearly did not impress anyone - everything is kind of flimsy here and there, fans of good all-wheel-drive cars, which were not a few at the exhibition, sticking out this economy, shook their heads dejectedly and scratched their heads, - no one could understand why this Russian MO was so fond of this "tarantas"? The special forces soldiers, who were on duty at the exhibition complex, were unable to resist, so as not to “check out” the novelties of the armored car industry, because this is exactly the technique that was intended for their use. Their reaction:
- on "Iveco" - frankly spat;
- on the armored "KAMAZ" - treated them somehow evenly and sustained;
- on armored "Urals" - admired;
- on "Tigr-M" and "Tigr-6" - they squeezed enthusiastically.

In general, it was almost impossible to photograph "Tigers" in statics, so that only the car was in the frame - how many people didn’t ask 20 to step back and not interfere with the frame, nobody listened, they all stuck to these machines as if they were honey plastered. I note that the “Ivekie” stood nearby, and there was no such agiotage around them.

I almost forgot: Iveco was struck by an extraordinary tightness: in fact, the driver can fit in there and with him 3 more passengers - that's all! Moreover, how to place it in full combat gear, so that it jumped out, and everything was at hand, I won’t put my mind to it. In this regard, the "Tiger" is much more spacious and comfortable. Correctly says in his interview S. Suvorov - to transport the same number of fighters, you need twice as many “Ivek” than “Tigers”. And this, in addition to the cost of the machines themselves, is also the cost of operating the same gasoline / solarium, stupidly twice as much! Now about the notorious prices - "Tiger" costs 3-5 million rubles, "Iveco" - from 12,5 million rubles to 20 million rubles per car. Is it a lot or a little? For comparison, at the end of 2009, the new BTR-80 cost 10 million rubles, and the BTR-80 with PTK-20 million rubles. At the same cost, I'm sorry, but the BTR-80, and even equipped with a software and hardware complex (essentially a BIUS), is a machine of a much higher level. Now about the protection class. Russia has its own armored ceramics, there are special armored titanium alloys, and there is modern steel armor. A Tiger with a protection class 5 has long been supplied to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, a Tiger with a protection class identical to Iveco was also created and demonstrated at the same REA-2011 - what, do they really not know about this in the Russian Defense Ministry? Actually, the protection class is relevant only for bullet fire. Very widespread RPGs can only hold Tanks, and heavy infantry fighting vehicles, and armored personnel carriers. Mine explosions are generally ridiculous! Now militants of all stripes are practicing land mines of such power that armored personnel carriers are tearing in half, and the tank is turning inside out. So is it worth the candle? In general, what I can’t understand - the Moscow Region has an armored personnel carrier, which has a higher survivability than any tactical car, they still have a BRDM, why, for what reasons do they still need this armored car? Fashion trends ??? "Everyone has - we also need" - so what? So, yes not so ...

Technical aspects, design perfection and even its cost have nothing to do with it. It should be understood that the adoption of "Iveco" is not a whim of the MO. This is an order from the commander. But only a big commander can give an order to “close his eyes” to flaws and not take into account any arguments and arguments of opponents. And the commander possessing such power and powers we have only one — the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, who at the same time still works as the President of “All Russia”. And here he has "friends" - a friend of Nicolas and a friend of Silvio. They live and work in Europe, which is in severe economic crisis. How can friends not help here? This is not "patzanski"! Moreover, you can also beautifully pantanut before the "poor" Europeans - look, like, what we are "cool" - shit your buy, schob so good it was for you ... All this is called the "Big State policy". Only here is the same Europe, well, for example, in the face of Great Britain, it professes several other principles of the Great State Policy, namely: "England has no friends, but has interests." Russia, on the other hand, placed its national interests on the altar of a rather dubious "friendship." I advise everyone to think about this fact, especially in connection with the upcoming elections.


Who is behind Iveco?


However, politics is politics, and the MOs are also not “suckers” sitting. No wonder the Minister did business at first and left taxes, then, learning to leave, taxes were raised. He also quickly turned around at the new location, reforming the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation into a business structure with a very effective management. It is cuddly - just look at Oboronservis Concern OJSC, existing under the "roof" of the Moscow Region. More recently, the Minister of Defense himself was on its board of directors. Now, in obedience to the instructions of his high command, he left this governing body, but the essence did not change - at the helm of Oboronservis, both proven and faithful reliable personnel in the person of the deputy minister of the current Minister remained. Of course, all from the glorious town of St. Petersburg. Why am I talking about Oboronservis? And besides, the situation with “Iveco” was clearly played in the Defense Ministry - no-one else like “Oboronservis” will be involved in its production in the Russian Federation. Well, of course, not by itself - you can’t make you turn the screwdrivers on this organization, - there are masters of a different profile. Just created a joint venture, wholly and fully controlled "Oboronservis." But as far as finances are concerned, then yes, everything will go, do not hesitate, through this respected organization. Where? Well, of course, everything will leave Russia, to hell. How is this possible, you ask, after all, Oboronservis is like a state corporation? And it is possible that even though he is a state, and the form of ownership in the form of a joint stock company, it gives the full right to people on the board of directors to direct financial flows as they please and without any control. How do you think, why suddenly became so popular in the "defense" of various kinds of federal state unitary enterprises or state-owned enterprises? That's right! Of these, it is extremely difficult to divert profits. In addition, the company is much easier to privatize - it is necessary to sell to anyone. Once again, where does "Tiger" and "Iveco" come from? Yes, everything is very simple! When buying Tiger, the Ministry of Defense should transfer money to the Military Industrialization Company, the GAZ Group, and these are completely “other people's uncles”, and they are unlikely to share, and if they share, they will be crumbs from the “grand table” But when acquiring Iveco, the Ministry of Defense buys it as if from itself. Oboronservis will honestly give part of the money to its "friends" to Europe, and transfer the second part to the accounts of the right people in offshore areas. , to connect with the money received by Oboronservis for repairing armored vehicles for Venezuela, well, etc., etc. And then, one fine The second moment, for these money Oboronservis will be redeemed from the state, as an absolutely “unnecessary”, “non-core” MO asset. Iveco, Iveco ... And can you imagine what amounts go through Oboronservice under the construction program housing for the Armed Forces, in the line of food purchases, fuel, etc., etc. I write all this, and somehow it becomes scary ... somehow it is not accepted in Russia to appreciate, cherish and respect "freedom of speech" .
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52 comments
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  1. and1975
    +20
    24 January 2012 08: 15
    all some kind of toy pathos expensive and wretched return Bobik he still put everything in reliability and simplicity winked
    1. Sergh
      +17
      24 January 2012 09: 29
      Oh, how I know the production technology in the 80s, replacing a light bulb (as in the article), it was a problem for a year, or even more, i.e. to shovel the whole technological process together with the documentation with the signing of a number of engineers, right down to the main one, and who is it hunting for? Looks like this practice is still progressing, sadly. (In those years there was an ordinary design engineer).
      I saw, as the author says, Iveco at this training ground, too, at first I did not understand the zigzags, and then he was sick to the colic!
      Thank you.
  2. Owl
    +10
    24 January 2012 08: 23
    "The diagnosis is difficult," but with treatment (with a change of leadership), the patient (MO) will survive.
    1. kostya
      +6
      24 January 2012 18: 28
      surgical treatment is recommended, so that once and for all
  3. alps
    0
    24 January 2012 08: 57
    Author another hose not accepted by the military representative! Dumb info is not about anything. Before shit, to compare two samples of equipment of an unnecessary MO in principle. Stupid smiles at the system of military representatives, the only ones who keep manufacturers from using Chinese trash in their products, or someone thinks that the manufacturer will think about soldiers and will not allow Chinese bearings, hoses, the same glasses that can’t withstand even getting from Chingachguk’s bow! The tiger came to the police yard, so they use it and are not going to refuse, and the military took the Wolf, and they buy it.
    1. Tjumenec72
      +2
      24 January 2012 10: 27
      Regarding military representatives I agree, at least some kind of control. Another thing is to create competition. Somehow to interest manufacturers of components.
      1. KV-1 switch
        0
        24 January 2012 13: 56
        You naive people still believe in fairy tales. There is such a thing called "Deviation Map", with its help you can drag anything through the OTK and VP!
      2. 0
        24 January 2012 15: 00
        Quote: Tjumenec72
        Regarding military representatives I agree, at least some kind of control. Another thing is to create competition. Somehow to interest manufacturers of components.

        What is control and competition? these are completely incompetent people, in tenders conducted by the state there are only two points: time and price, therefore everything that the state pays for the state is riveted on its knees, they are not able to set quality parameters and filter applications by product quality criteria in any industry.
    2. sergeyamu
      0
      31 January 2012 13: 03
      What is "Wolf"? Who bought how much? Don't shake the nonsense mr. alps, there is no such car in the Ministry of Defense. The tiger, on the other hand, is present in almost all power structures.
  4. 0
    24 January 2012 09: 07
    I read to: "The institute of military acceptance monitors the quality and prices, ..." - and then after three lines. My last experience of communicating with the "military representative" does not give me a charge of optimism, as the author of this article. There are many small offices of the CJSC type, but the military representatives were laid off and Veterans remained there (with a capital letter), so they do not have time to delve into the CDs that they are slipping into.
  5. alps
    -3
    24 January 2012 09: 11
    And I more and more like Serdyukov, how much mud is being poured over him, but he is silent, does not respond to any dirt and does his job, slowly pulling out the army from the .ovna into which it was so beloved by so many beloved, military ministers! It does not allow to supply equipment to the army by quantity, for reports, but forces the manufacturer to do as it should, not to row money in his pocket, but to modernize production, everyone has already lost the habit of this and does not understand what they want from them. And no matter what they say, the equipment, albeit slowly, but surely, goes into the troops, and does not stand there, but rides, flies, swims, everything is as it should be, and not as it was !!!
    1. -2
      24 January 2012 09: 14
      Zhenya, well done! I support "my" position! Best regards, Esaul.
    2. J_silver
      +4
      24 January 2012 09: 25
      Excuse me, you pervert?
      Otherwise, you don’t understand ...
    3. +4
      25 January 2012 05: 05
      You little friend is visible to the army in general have nothing to do, you know her only from a computer.
      And the technology really is not worth it, it arrives, flies and floats the remnants of its resources .....
  6. -4
    24 January 2012 10: 09
    Quote: J_Silver
    Excuse me, you pervert?

    Only in your perverted brain could such a formulation arise!
  7. soldat1945
    +8
    24 January 2012 10: 23
    Comrades, I’m ready to get cons, but I’m serving on this shit under the name TIGER, I will write shortly for 10 months of operation on 15 machines 84 malfunctions that do not allow their operation, each trip to the task as Russian roulette, TIGERS with YaMZ engines, talked with the guys who serve on TIGERS with KAMENS engines, there seems to be no claim to the engine, but with the rest of the nuts and bolts everything is the same as mine, the breeders from business trips don’t get out all the poor ones eliminate, I know from all the factories by name, and that’s the funniest thing for every unit a different plant answers, and so that everything starts working again, you still have to manage to put everyone together. I myself am a patriot, but I began to think maybe better AIVECO. And so in ten months, my unit was ready to leave the full complement of day 2 no more.
    1. J_silver
      +9
      24 January 2012 10: 43
      In principle, I’m not surprised, I personally don’t even know a single type of equipment that would not require long-term refinement, and under the current conditions, in general, no one can guarantee anything ...
      So Iveco is unlikely to be reliable in such conditions ...
      1. soldat1945
        +5
        24 January 2012 10: 57
        You apparently did not quite understand me, the fact is that, for example, I found a run-in in the troops of such a machine as "VODNIK", the same Arzamsk plant there were so many problems there, I do not know why they did not take into service there were not big flaws in the layout, but in general, the car is good, and the TIGER is just a set of iron, if you saw it close up, look at the fit of the seams to the armor plates and a lot will become clear! The running gear is just gloom all the time, either the left wheels overtake the right ones or turn around, the brake force distributor distributes so that when braking at speed you can turn 180 degrees on a busy road, and these are only such small drawbacks, the only strong side is cross-country ability, no matter how trying it it didn't work out, but then the engine requires complete drying at a temperature of 60 degrees, otherwise you can no longer start.
        1. Sergh
          +3
          24 January 2012 11: 13
          However, throwing is ugly. Prove the pictures ... I do not believe it!
          1. soldat1945
            +2
            24 January 2012 11: 18
            The stuffing is already there, I just did not understand the photo of what you need to throw off! If the seams, then I wrote that whoever saw it and especially felt the technique that the troops know what I’m talking about, I’m not able to post photos now if you want to write your personal message at the end of the week!
            1. Sergh
              +5
              24 January 2012 11: 30
              I'm on the engine in general. About ten years ago, while riding a Jap with a little daughter in the front seat, she accidentally (or maybe not) at 110 km / h moved tobish to L1 for the first, the box flew. Of course I restored, but you, excuse me, these adult soldiers are not present?
              The engine is the heart of a car, we treat it like a mom now, very troublesome!
              And the PM is right here on my Alavar, it's just as simple as it’s become, you’re from where they say. respected?
              1. soldat1945
                +7
                24 January 2012 12: 28
                On the site, I’m not very long since apologizing for the question with the PM it really only now came through that the nickname can be sent, with regard to the gearbox, it’s mechanical on the GAZ233114 TIGER and therefore here L1, I did not understand, I told you about the brake system that when you press the pedal the brake instead of 4 wheels slows down, because of which the car turns around, the YaMZ engine was crammed with electronics under euro-4 and as soon as military diesel gets there, the electronics block the revolutions you get power and even you have to use a lower gear to get started, the breeders said to decide this question by draining condensed water from the fuel filter sump in practice it turned out that it needs to be done every 30 km, while it is under the right wing liner and in frost or mud I would like to see how you get in there, my drivers have a long driving experience on the BTR-80, I respect your desire to protect everything ours is the same but the car is just very raw and not finished!
                1. +5
                  24 January 2012 12: 47
                  Quote: soldat1945
                  YaMZ engine crammed with electronics under Euro-4

                  I remembered the joke:

                  The Palestinian Authority passed a law on which Israeli tanks will not be allowed into its territory, noise from which exceeds 70 decibels.
                2. +2
                  24 January 2012 12: 57
                  Pavel, you’ve done well that you reacted! The opinion of the pros, in this case, is more important than all of our verbal outbreaks! I would very much like the factory workers to bring the unit to mind and we would not encounter such comments! Thank you and all the best, Paul!
                  1. soldat1945
                    0
                    24 January 2012 14: 31
                    Thank you for your support!
                3. Sergh
                  +1
                  24 January 2012 19: 56
                  soldat1945, these details are not familiar to me, this is of course something new, even interesting. It is necessary to ask their men. Somehow it’s very cunning with the brakes, if (correctly) understood how water can get into the system? Adjustment torm. pad is sufficient to lock all wheels. Well, what a candinsat, just a mystery!
                  Thank you.
                  1. 0
                    25 January 2012 01: 37
                    A man writes about sucks from the fuel system.
                4. 0
                  25 January 2012 01: 44
                  I sincerely empathize with you, what do you think is the best of the two objects? Do breeders take concrete steps to correct deficiencies?
                5. +2
                  25 January 2012 05: 19
                  Dear I very much agree that the machine is damp, so you need to bring it to mind by the joint efforts of the Ministry of Defense and industry. Because, all the same problems will come out during the operation of Iveco. Since Iveco has worse passability, then the load on the engine-transmission-chassis will be increased, you will pour the same fuel into it ...... But the most important thing in case of war is who will supply us with spare parts. parts, if our opponent turns out to be a great friend of the European Union?
    2. +10
      24 January 2012 12: 41
      In my opinion, if a car does not satisfy in quality, it is necessary to look for leverage on this manufacturer to fix it. But if instead they buy "Iveka" - there will be many times more problems.
      1. Already now it does not meet our cross-country requirements, which for Russia (as it were to put it mildly) where the asphalt is not everywhere.
      2. Ceramic armor is not only that. which is not Italian, but still loses its properties at low temperatures.
      3. The design of the reservation contains unprotected areas
      4. The car has half the passenger capacity, which means that for the transfer of the unit, two more cars are required, which, given their price (three times higher than our "Tiger"), is 6 times the money scam. As a result: someone will ride under armor. and someone in the back of the 131st zil.
      5. etc. etc......
      1. soldat1945
        +2
        24 January 2012 12: 57
        Yes, I understand that too, but when you just can’t drive with military equipment with confidence, no matter how you feel very comfortable, it’s clear that the military envoys need to regain their power at the factory and have a good run of time, otherwise when they accepted the cars they replaced only of the shortcomings that we ourselves found at the time of the reception, and the military representative said that his task was not to disrupt supplies and, in general, his position became Starley.
  8. +3
    24 January 2012 11: 59
    The Russian Ministry of Defense "nightmares" Russian manufacturers of weapons and military equipment, pointlessly

    Manufacturers do not want to (and already can not) pay kickbacks to the ranks of Moscow oblast, and that’s what they nightmare.
  9. roial
    +7
    24 January 2012 12: 02
    They had run into military representatives in vain, although they were working the old fashioned way, but it was better than without them.
    We refused their services (Ukraine, the border service) and there is such rubbish coming into service that it is scary to work with him.
  10. -1
    24 January 2012 12: 58
    I’m specially procing, maybe someone else hasn’t seen it!
    soldat1945,
    The defense industry needs reform!

    I got it. Second attempt
    soldat1945,
    soldat1945 Today, 12:28 PM I’m not apologizing for a long time on the site with a PM, it really only now came through that you can send a nickname, as for the gearbox, it’s mechanical on the GAZ1 TIGER, so I don’t understand here, I’ve talked about the braking system that when you press the brake pedal instead of 233114 wheels slows down one because of which the car turns around, the YaMZ engine was crammed with electronics under Euro-1 and as soon as military diesel gets there, the electronics block the speed, you get power and you even have to move use a lower gear, the breeders said to solve this issue by draining condensed water from the fuel filter sump, in practice it turned out that this should be done every 4 km, while it is under the right wing liner and in frost or mud I would like to see how you get in there , my drivers have a long experience driving a BTR-4, I respect your desire to protect all of ours the same but the car is just very damp I'm not finished!
    The defense industry needs reform!
  11. SSR
    0
    24 January 2012 14: 45
    I'm a little off topic at the expense of tigers and iveco ...
    but I would like to clarify what models are talking about .. for starters ..
    when there were reports that they were going to buy Iveks ...
    MO expressed a claim precisely to the class of armor protection .. which Iveco had (at that time) was an order of magnitude better and at one foreign forum ..
    the people uploaded photos of the undermined iveco in Afghanistan ... and most importantly, in most cases the crews remained alive ...
    purely IMHA .. and if someone shares information I will be grateful.
    1. 0
      24 January 2012 15: 02
      Quote from S.S.R.
      I'm a little off topic at the expense of tigers and iveco ...

      Here http://www.popmech.ru/blogs/post/2630-iveco-lmv-m65-bratskaya-mogila-dlya-rossiy
      skoy-pehotyi / scoreid / 1137 /
      a lot of things have been said on this topic
  12. +1
    24 January 2012 16: 42
    at least do not argue
    latest news Russian Ministry of Defense signed a contract for the supply of the first 60
    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/01/24/iveco/


    I OFFER TO MAKE A TIME-out and when reviews of IVEC from the troops go and then we continue the conversation
    the first Iveks will go to the North Caucasian Military District where 30 new TIGERS-Ms are already serving and the same number will be delivered, and then compare what is better ??
  13. Alexey Prikazchikov
    +1
    24 January 2012 16: 48
    The guys are a little off topic but litter the picture did not find

    IzhMash Strike Combat Pistol

    Russian gunsmiths on Tuesday demonstrated to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin the novelty of domestic small arms - the Strike combat pistol.
    After visiting the exhibition of Russian arms manufacturers' products on the territory of Izhmash (Izhevsk, Udmurtia), Rogozin went down to the shooting range, where he tested the latest models of small arms. Among them, a pre-production sample of a Strike pistol with a caliber of 9 millimeters.
    "Interesting thing. The latest technology that does not exist in the world. If we launch a series before the end of the year, this will have an overtaking effect, ”Rogozin said.
    At the moment, the gun is being tested. It is distinguished by the absence of external fuses, but it is absolutely safe for instant firing, in other words, it works on the principle of "get it - shoot it," gunsmiths explained. The gun has an accelerated magazine change scheme and improved rate of fire. More precise specifications have not been disclosed.
    The Izhmash Group of Companies (Izhevsk Machine-Building Plant) is an industrial enterprise within the Russian Technologies. Izhmash designs and manufactures a wide range of special and civilian products - Kalashnikov and Nikonov assault rifles, submachine guns, sniper rifles, grenade launchers, aircraft weapons, guided artillery systems, guided weapons maintenance and repair equipment, as well as serial and special machines and tool. The company was founded in 1807.
    http://www.ria.ru/
    1. +1
      24 January 2012 17: 02
      The purely Russian name of the pistol "Strike". And the UAZ became "Hunter". Perhaps it's cool, to give names to domestic products, the meaning of which not every Russian knows.
    2. +2
      24 January 2012 17: 52
      Why is Rogozin an expert on small arms? I remember one expert Medvedev was already showing our iPhone killer. Without specific information just chatter turning into banter.
  14. drain
    0
    24 January 2012 18: 11
    confused !!!! http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/01/24/iveco/ "rejoice"
  15. sashalenovo
    +1
    24 January 2012 19: 48
    This state of things only shows in which pope the mechanical engineering is located.
  16. LiRoy
    -1
    24 January 2012 20: 56
    Over the past several years, the Russian Ministry of Defense has been "nightmares" for Russian manufacturers of weapons and military equipment. He does the right thing in order to feel the competition and not get loose. It is necessary to make it clear that their product should not "be inferior to foreign counterparts", but should surpass them, and only therefore be adopted.
  17. kind
    0
    24 January 2012 22: 40
    Hello everybody ! Question to the creators of the site. You can go to the Moscow Region, familiarize their press service with the site, with the number of visitors, etc. and then send them the opinion of members of the forum, and if they condescend, they will respond and in the end there will be (maybe) a certain polemic with them, and not a shake of air in our friendly inter-quarrel. Or have I fantasized something? Correct.
    1. 0
      24 January 2012 23: 09
      Quote: Good
      You can go to the Moscow Region, familiarize their press service with the site, with the number of visitors, etc. and then send them the opinion of members of the forum, and if they condescend, they will respond and in the end there will be (maybe) a certain polemic with them, and not a shake of air in our friendly inter-quarrel. Or have I fantasized something?

      That's for sure. Fantasy you do not hold ....
    2. +1
      25 January 2012 05: 33
      At least the top managers from MO have no time for us, we need to withdraw assets to offshore ....
      Although for the girlfriend of the wife of the minister, you can even create a new post for these purposes, an adviser to the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation for working with bloggers (with five assistants and twenty departments), well, with a very good salary ...
  18. kind
    0
    27 January 2012 15: 48
    Bad_gr,
    Flying to the moon was also once a fantasy ...
    1. 0
      27 January 2012 19: 16
      Quote: Good
      Flying to the moon was also once a fantasy ...

      In flight to the moon I do not see anything fantastic. Now even more so: if they allocate money, there are no obstacles to organize the flight.
      But to imagine Serdyukov, who is interested in our opinion - this is fantastic.
  19. Beltar
    0
    31 January 2012 20: 59
    I have a feeling that the author is a little unaware of the meaning of certification. Not only in the army, but also in industry, nothing can be simply taken and replaced anywhere. If yours does not even explode, but simply unscheduled for repairs with millions of losses, the rectification column due to the seemingly the same, but insufficiently shielded cable, or the tank crew in battle will be blinded by the seemingly the same lamp, or will not see some signal, since it is not sufficiently contrasting, then the developer will be taken by the genitals so that after that he will use the same spoon for eating until the end of his life. Common sense and "well, it's obvious" are not applicable in such matters. And the innovation should be noticeable in order to raise the storm for it.

    As well as the sale of the army of something there at an inflated price in Soviet times, it was generally impossible, there is a cost price for it and we take the plant with the corresponding percentage of profit. In military production, there can be no talk of a market in any matters that are even a little more serious than the organization of a buffet on the territory of a military unit.
  20. nick-name
    0
    6 February 2012 17: 30
    Quote: soldat1945
    Comrades, I’m ready to get cons, but I’m serving on this shit under the name TIGER, I’ll write for 10 months of operation on 15 machines in short 84 problems that do not allow them to be used, each trip to the task is like Russian roulette, TIGERS with YaMZ engines

    It's just some nonsense! Dear, if that were the case, the release of the Tigers would simply be stopped, and the MO shouted about it on every corner!
    Quote: soldat1945
    and the TIGER is just a set of iron, if you saw it close, look at the fit of the seams to the armor of the sheets and much will already become clear!

    Cheap and cheerful! Look at the T-34 near
    Quote: soldat1945
    Running just the gloom all the time they try either to leave the left wheels or to overtake the right ones, the brake force distributor so distributes that when braking at a speed you can turn 180 degrees on a busy highway

    Wai! the planetary gear of distribution is simply not capable of this! And about braking - sometimes even on a personal car it doesn’t interfere with pumping the brakes!
    Quote: soldat1945
    YaMZ was stuffed with electronics under Euro-4, and as soon as military diesel gets there, the electronics block the revolutions, you get power, and even you have to use a lower gear to get started, the breeders said to solve this issue by draining condensed water from the fuel filter sump, in practice it turned out that it needs to be done every 30 km, while it is under the right wing liner and in the cold or in the mud, I would like to see how you get in there,

    laughing laughing laughing And if you pour such g @ vno into Ivek, it will fly like on the best varieties of European diesel fuel laughing laughing laughing it’s true she will fly only to the Russian garbage dump ...
  21. 0
    13 February 2012 21: 23
    It’s not even a matter of quality of technology. (it must be definitely improved). The fact is that any military equipment is what you need to produce yourself, at worst buy from true allies. And Italy, like France, is part of NATO, that is, our potential opponents! I want to see how you will mine zap. parts, in the event of a military conflict between Russia and NATO on these same Iveco or Mistrals! And it seems that the Americans are pushing the world towards this ...
    During the Russo-Japanese War, Russia procured the bulk of military equipment from Great Britain and France and Germany (at least steam engines for warships). And for some reason, our ships, guns, gunpowder in charges, radio stations (invented in Russia !!!), the Japs turned out to be better!
    If we buy, then advanced technologies, as Stalin did. Definitely going to fight with Germany, he bought in Germany machines, rolling mills and many other equipment, procured for loans taken [/ u]in Germanyloading German factories with orders from the USSR. (But these factories could drive tanks, planes, etc. for the Wehrmacht)
    1. nick-name
      0
      14 February 2012 16: 29
      on the whole I agree, with the exception of the idea that you can leave the enemy’s army without technology by dumping a cloud of money into its economy ... somehow ridiculous
  22. 0
    17 February 2012 23: 01
    No, not in his economy. Taking loans from German banks (and very solid), for the same loans, ordering a lot of means of production (machine tools, rolling mills, etc.). Each economy has its own development limit. Well, for example: make our aviation industry today build 500 superjet aircraft within a year. Duck will not pull. You just can't handle it. And if we can cope, then there will be no one to assemble military aircraft (and nowhere)!
    This is what Stalin did in the late thirties with Germany. That is why she entered World War II with useless tanks, in small quantities, without a fuel supply (After 2 weeks of the war, German tanks stopped in Poland due to lack of fuel!). Fortunately for Hitler, neither England nor France had tanks at all. I will not dwell on the reasons for the defeat of the Red Army at the beginning of the war. But our tanks were much better than German, and their number was much higher than the number of tanks in Germany!
    1. nick-name
      0
      20 February 2012 10: 35
      These same loans were returned to Germany in the form of various raw materials, i.e. just what Germany lacked. (for example, the same fuel). The useless German tanks beat our "crappy" tanks pretty well, and even with their insignificant numbers, the Germans simply didn't need it anymore at that time.
      It’s clear about the aviation industry, it won’t be able to immediately jump from mass production to mass production — miracles never happen.
  23. 0
    20 February 2012 21: 39
    I said that I am not talking about the reason for the defeat of our army.
    There is such a game - the world of tanks. The characteristics of all tanks are posted there. You can compare (Just do not refer to the game itself: there both BT and T-54 participate in the same battle, and the "Maus" has not yet been built)
    1. nick-name
      0
      20 February 2012 23: 46
      well, let's go back to our sheep (centuries) my opinion is that you need to develop your own, and not to get yesterday (at best), and even from a country that does not really fight
      P.S. the mouse tank was built in an amount of 3 pieces, all of them were blown up by the Germans during the offensive of the Red Army. one sample is restored and is in a kubinka
  24. 0
    22 February 2012 16: 55
    I also think that the technique should be your own.
    As for the "mouse" - in other sources - 2 pieces were built, and only one received the tower. They did not participate in the battles. And in general - building a tank that can reach the nearest bridge (which will not withstand it) is insanity.
    But in order to build your equipment, you need to put money into a scientific base. Again, an example from the USSR. Since the Stalin era (and the latter was a big fan of aviation), a lot of money has been invested in aviation science. That is why Soviet aviation was up to the mark! Even 20 years after the collapse of the union, many of our aircraft remain at the same level.
    And if money has never been invested in civilian sectors, our entire "citizen" is nowhere below the level ...

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