Stuck in Pants

Exactly 80 years ago, 21 in November 1936 of the year from the assembly shop of the plant of the company "Junkers" in Dessau rolled out the first production instance of the dive bomber Ju.87A-1 Stuka. Stuka ("Stuck") - short for Sturzkampfflugzeug - "diving combat aircraft." Already in February, the 1937-th first link of such machines was sent to Spain for testing in combat conditions, where they performed very well, demonstrating the exceptional accuracy of bombing. And three years later the predatory silhouette “Stuki” became famous all over the world, becoming a kind of symbol of Hitler’s blitzkrieg.

The first serial modification of the Ju.87 differed from all subsequent wide fairings of non-retractable landing gear. In the Soviet aviation industry such fairings were called "pants". In the future, the fairing reduced, because of what the chassis began to resemble the feet, shod in sandals. And since by the middle of the twentieth century, this archaic footwear was still in use in the USSR, the aircraft in the USSR was nicknamed "lapotnik" or "laptezhnik". The “Laptezhniki” were used on the Soviet-German front right up to the end of the war, and the last to whom they entered service in February 1945 were the Air Force of the so-called “Russian Liberation Army” by General Vlasov. But this is another story.

On the screen saver - the second prototype "Stuka" Ju.87V-2 in a test flight in the spring of the year 1936. The aircraft has not yet been credited to the Luftwaffe, so only civilian identification codes are stamped on it.

The prototype Ju.87 on the test site in Rechlin.

One of the first production copies of the Ju.87А-1 in military camouflage. In the background - a heavy twin-engine Messerschmitt fighter Bf.110.

Ju.87А-1 in Spain with the franchist identification marks of the Air Force and the emblem of the link "Kette Jolanthe" - a cartoon pig Iolanta on the "leg".

Top down:
One of the pre-production copies of Ju.87A-0, 1936 year.
Ju.87A-1 Franco Air Force, 1937 year.
Ju.87A-1 Hungarian Air Force, 1941 year.

Comments

[Same lech]

A lot of blood to our troops was spoiled by these archaic at first glance planes.

In the absence of full-fledged air support to our troops in the early years of the Second World War, they literally terrorized our infantry and the close rear in defense.
However, low speed, inadequate protection from enemy fighters and poor maneuverability were a big minus during the attacks of our fighters, the Germans' losses were very great ... therefore, without escort of Messers and Fokers, they became easy prey for our aces.

[Cat]

The German "feature" of heavenly artillery. Sometimes historians even heard such comparisons as "tanks + pieces (U-87) = blitzkrik".

[Leonid Har]

"blitzkrik" is powerful.

[Same lech]

"blitzkrik" is powerful.

Of course

[novel66]

Blitzkriek is loud!

[M0xHaTka]

"quick cry"
interesting technology. is it a scream for 1 second? or even less?

[Vladimirets]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

therefore, without the accompaniment of Messers and Fokers, they became easy prey for our aces.

I would not be so categorical. Since 1943, things really began to suffer serious losses, but even these losses were much lower than the losses of the same Il-2. In addition, since 1943, the new modification of the Ju-87 received a new engine and enhanced defensive armament, which, together with a fairly tenacious structure and experienced pilots, did not make it a training target. So, they were not "easy" prey.

[Same lech]

In addition, since 1943, the new modification of the Ju-87 received a new engine and reinforced defensive armament, which, together with a fairly tenacious structure and experienced pilots, did not make it a training target. So, they were not "easy" prey.

Since 1943, the Germans began to observe personnel starvation of experienced pilots ... they simply did not have time to prepare real fighter pilots ... therefore very often the JUNCERS armadas crumbled when the leading commander and experienced pilot were lost as a rule ... our aces learned to break through organized groups JUNCERS destroying first and foremost precisely the leading.

[novobranets]

Quote: Vladimirets

So, they were not "easy" prey.

Moreover, its low speed gave the lapper a good maneuverability, and dodging an inexperienced fighter pilot, the Yu-87 could send a line to that, which sometimes ended sadly.

[Tujh]

Quote: Vladimirets

I would not be so categorical. Since 1943, things really began to suffer serious losses, but even these losses were much lower than the losses of the same Il-2. In addition, since 1943, the new modification of the Ju-87 received a new engine and enhanced defensive armament, which, together with a fairly tenacious structure and experienced pilots, did not make it a training target. So, they were not "easy" prey.

IL-2 suffered losses not only from enemy fighter aircraft, but also from anti-aircraft artillery, which the Germans had more than ours. The Ju-87 had steeper dive angles and a much higher speed during the attack, naturally and knocking it down is more difficult.

[novobranets]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

However, low speed, inadequate protection from enemy fighters and poor maneuverability were a big minus during the raids of our fighters

I agree with everything except "weak maneuverability". It was the low speed and maneuverability that allowed the pieces to dodge a fighter attack from close range, of course, for this, a pilot was needed - not a burdock, of which there were not many left by the end of 42.

[Vadivak]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

. Therefore, without the accompaniment of Messers and Fokers, they became easy prey for our aces.

And no one planned to use them unaccompanied in this whole Piece

[mvg]

about maneuverability is not necessary. it was these creatures that sank the battleship Marat and the leader of the destroyers. and they knew how to fight with fighters .. only in 43-44, the "pieces" began to transfer aces to the FW-190.

[BAI]

In 1945, Rudel in the Yu-87 left the regiment commander in Yak, most likely 9, who had more than 10 victories (in the sense of a 2-digit number, I don’t remember exactly how many)

[knn54]

A very good "SHTUKA" - during the occupation of Ukraine, some teenagers (half a century ago communicated with such an uncle) managed to remove the rear wheels, made "kravchuchki cars" and earned money in markets, train stations ...

[alexej123]

"Kravchuchki" - did the president of Ukraine think of this by chance?

[novobranets]

You can't see the siren propellers on the fairings, there were such ones, for pressure on the psyche, at that time they were not yet installed, probably. Our front-line soldiers did not like these vultures very much. They said about their bombing accuracy: "This bastard can hit a penny with a bomb, or anything, if only this" anything "could be seen from above." A lot of blood was spoiled by the "bastard" to the British, and, ironically, to bomb the Britons, the Germans flew on Rolls-Royce engines. On the eastern front, when ours recovered from the first losses, they began to beat the bastards in the tail and in the mane, moreover, even the IL-2 successfully hunted them. The low speed of the Ju-87 ceased to suit the Luftwaffe, and there was a lot of talk about replacing it with something faster, but the unsurpassed bombing accuracy made it possible to hold out until the end of the war. The Ju-87, equipped with a cannon suspended in a special gondola, posed a serious threat to the tanks. Here the low speed, plus the released "air brake", made it possible to aim at the vulnerable spots of the BT. Although the Ju-87 aircraft was not outstanding, like our Il-2, but he made his contribution to the history of the Second World War, a lot of video chronicles show how these "vultures of Goering", you cannot call them otherwise, dive on trains with refugees and not armed ships. Laptezhnik became a kind of symbol of fascism of 1941-45, and his combat biography was very rich ..

[Same lech]

A serious threat to the tanks was the Yu-87, equipped with a cannon suspended in a special gondola.

Yes, it was like that ... from the top view it pierced the armor of our T-34s like a nut but only aces flew on such JUNCERS ... I can imagine what kind of recoil the weapon had.

[novobranets]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

... I imagine what kind of recoil the weapon had.

Stuff with guns did not fly for a long time. Recoil deformed the details of the airframe, those few planes that were lucky enough to return to the airfield, after firing a certain amount of ammunition for the gun, stupidly disassembled for parts. German pedantry.

only aces flew on such JUNCERS

Have you heard about Rudel? The bastard was still there. He was considered a master in this matter, bastard.

[novel66]

why immediately? the enemy, yes, even that enemy, although it was lying, in my opinion (as for the number of tanks destroyed), but in Marat he laid a bomb

[novobranets]

Quote: novel xnumx

although he lied

I pay tribute to your tact , although one can say "he lied like an old gelding", I have already mentioned Marat here, he was not alone.

[gladcu2]

novobranec

Rudel was lying, but he worked like a horse. The number of departures is very large. He was shot down several times. They shot down his comrade, and he lifted them aboard and brought them to the unit.

Rudel, very few flew with these guns. Although the reviews did positive. But the design was really raw.

[rubin6286]

I must say that Soviet historians do not question the effectiveness of Rudel, Hartmann, Rall, etc. Although they are enemies, they are undoubtedly outstanding pilots, and if they survived that brutal massacre, they undoubtedly deserve respect.
In terms of the number of sorties and their effectiveness, no other pilot in the world could even get close to Rudel. During World War 2, he made 2530 sorties. If we accept that the war lasted 1418 days, then conditionally he went into battle almost every day. Destroyed 519 tanks, more than 800 vehicles, 4 armored trains, 150 artillery battery positions, many bridges, sank the battleship Marat, the leader of Minsk, the destroyer Steregushchiy, about 70 different landing ships, shot down 9 Soviet aircraft - 7 fighters and 2 IL-2.
Rudel was shot down 30 times during the war. He was wounded 5 times, had to endure the amputation of one leg to the knee, but literally until the last day of the war he continued to fly. After the war, he found the strength to practice skiing and mountaineering, and in 1949 he participated in the World Championships in skiing and took 4th place in slalom.
In any war, armies exaggerate their own victories and downplay losses. There may be errors in the calculation, to look for their causes is a thankless task. Before me is a book by T. Polak, K. Shourz "Asa of Stalin. Encyclopedia" Transl. From English. Moscow, Eksmo Publishing House, 2003. I read: Gulaev Nikolay Dmitrievich, captain. twice Hero of the Soviet Union, as of July 1944, shot down 52 enemy aircraft, but as of March 1944, the number of confirmed victories was 8. In total, from 1942 to 1945 he spent 69 battles, having completed 240 sorties and shot down 60 German planes.

[Alf]

Quote: rubin6286

During World War 2, he made 2530 sorties. If we accept that the war lasted 1418 days, then conditionally he went into battle almost every day

That's only to the front, he arrived only in May 42nd.

Quote: rubin6286

Destroyed 519 tanks, more than 800 vehicles, 4 armored trains, 150 artillery battery positions, many bridges, sank the battleship Marat, the leader of Minsk, the destroyer Steregushchiy, about 70 different landing ships, shot down 9 Soviet aircraft - 7 fighters and 2 IL-2.

He is a great storyteller. Hans Christian Andersen nervously smokes aside.

[rubin6286]

My dear Alf!
If Rudel is a good storyteller, then with him the storytellers is the Luftwaffe command, which told the Wehrmacht these tales, and he suffered losses from the very batteries, tanks, armored trains allegedly destroyed by Reich pilots. That would be great, but the reports of the pilots are checked and must be confirmed. If a lie is established, then this is no longer a fairy tale, but misinformation of the command. For this shooting, both with us and with them. Sometimes incompetent people could be in the headquarters, but the fool .... there wasn’t there.

In retirement age I read some tales from which I learned that:
• Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya - schizophrenic;
• Alexander Matrosov is not Matrosov at all. This is a soldier - a penal. who stumbled. fell on the embrasure of the bunker and did not specifically close it with his body;
• Nikolai Gastello did not send his burning plane to the enemy column. He was shot down on the way to the target;
• 28 Panfilovites did not defend Moscow. There was no battle at the Dubosekovo junction;
• Viktor Talalikhin did not make a night ramming. He collided with a German bomber in poor visibility. It was a young inexperienced pilot who died a week later.

This is all huh ... ... tales.

Why there are no good fairy tales, for example, that Pokryshkin, Kozhedub, Rechkalov, Gulaev and others were shot down no less than Hartmann. What do you think? Or that in August 1941 out of 5 million.200 thousand of our soldiers, 3 million 600 thousand were not captured, that 15 million (not thousand, still not and millions) of our compatriots. Why don't the media tell such tales?
Because in wartime these are not fairy tales, but misinformation and undermining of the morale of the army, for which responsibility must be borne, and in peacetime, moreover, no one will believe in them, because there are archival materials and eyewitnesses of those events are alive.

So you need to be careful with the "storytellers", so as not to be completely stupid.

[Alf]

Quote: rubin6286

My dear Alf!

My dear ruby!
Remind you of the Christatomy incident of the eight valiant African aces who shot BC in the dunes, accompanying this action with war cries? The deception was revealed, the eight were disbanded, and the victories ... were left.
By

Quote: rubin6286

If Rudel is a good storyteller, then with him the storytellers is the Luftwaffe command, which told the Wehrmacht these tales, and he suffered losses from the very batteries, tanks, armored trains allegedly destroyed by Reich pilots. That would be great, but the reports of the pilots are checked and must be confirmed. If a lie is established, then this is no longer a fairy tale, but misinformation of the command. For this shooting, both with us and with them. Sometimes incompetent people could be in the headquarters, but the fool .... there wasn’t there.

On one of the days of April of the 44th, the best ace of all time declared 4 shot down (2 LA-5, IL-2 and P-39), but in the unit’s combat journal for that day only one victory was counted by the hartman.
Field tests of IL-2 showed that the probability of getting from his guns into a STANDING tank does not exceed 3%. And the rudder from the cannons dangling under the wing from BC to the barrel of 12 shells is just some kind of superas.
Dr. Goebbels Ministry of Propaganda did not eat its brot in vain. And interestingly, the closer the end of the war, the faster the accounts of the superas grew.

[rubin6286]

Alf!

If you served in military aviation, you would know that propaganda is one thing and archival materials is another. In the archive there are forms of parts and flight books of pilots. The pilots' flight books are filled by the headquarters of the unit according to the data of the system of confirming the results of combat sorties adopted in the army. The Germans in this respect were quite punctual.

I repeat again that Soviet historians do not question the published data of foreign archives, but merely point out the inconsistencies in them when comparing them with Russian data. Propaganda has different goals, both during the war and after its end. The "chatter" of the pilots quite fits into the saying: "On the shed it is written x ... and there is firewood!"

I explain that the suspended weapons placed on the pylons (beam holders, etc.) must be securely fixed. None of his "hanging out" is allowed, because this can lead to loss of control of the aircraft under certain conditions.

In one of the Soviet films, the telemaster, after fixing the TV, takes two rubles from the owner. He is indignant: “I poked twice and 2 rubles already!” The master explains: “For the fact that I poked -10 cents twice, and for the fact that I knew where to poke - 1 rub.90!” It's me about the likelihood of an armored target being hit by air with cannon fire. To complete the task, the pilot must know the capabilities of the weapon (how to beat), the enemy’s vulnerabilities (where to beat) and be able to do it.

[BAI]

Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth in Rudel's words. It is impossible to lie about such things as "Marat", armored train, etc. - they are too easily checked.

[bionik]

Quote: The same Lech

I imagine what kind of recoil the weapon had.

And the shells are not small.Gunsmith with a clip for the 37-mm BK 37 aircraft gun of the German anti-tank attack aircraft Junkers Yu-87 (Ju.87G-1

[BAI]

By the way, we tried to put a 45 mm gun on an IL or fighter, but things didn’t go further than experiments, precisely because of the recoil.

[3x3zsave]

Sirens on fairings are not a psychic weapon; they served to determine the speed of the pilot during a dive by ear.

[fed2912]

I read somewhere that sirens were actually installed not to intimidate the enemy, but to simplify the determination of the dive speed of the pilot. Without stopping from the sight, the pilot determined his speed by ear.

[novobranets]

Yes that's right. By the tone of sound, the pilot determined the speed, because during a dive he had no time to be distracted by instruments. I mean the side effect of these sirens, cases were described when, having heard this cutting ears, the air defense calculations of London threw themselves in a panic in loose. Cases, of course, are isolated, but there was a place to be.

[igordok]

Flying Pilot Report

Bottom left.
http://f5.s.qip.ru/PXOGWSYO.jpg

[gladcu2]

the recruit

Well, there you can determine the speed by the vibration of the aircraft.

Then, these sirens were removed. Since they had some kind of side tactical effect. I do not remember exactly that. But I know that these sirens ceased to play a positive role, and vice versa, interceptor fighters were oriented by them, it seems.

[igordok]

Quote: fed2912

I read somewhere that sirens were not actually installed to intimidate the enemy,

For intimidation, whistles mounted on aerial bombs were used.

[BAI]

In fact, empty 200 liter full of barrels were used for intimidation. The bomb, although with a whistle, but still hits the target.

[Parsec]

Quote: BAI

In fact, empty 200 liter full of barrels were used for intimidation.

A barrel is a valuable irreplaceable transport container for transporting a valuable irreplaceable resource - fuel. Situation - a tank with gasoline came to the station, and you scattered barrels to intimidate the enemy, who laughs at your howling barrels on your second flight.
How will you load the barrel on the plane? Yoke welds on it? They didn’t carry water in 200 liter barrels, which means that you need to steam the barrel, weld the bomb yokes - spend gasoline and electrodes, time and effort of mechanics.
How the crew will accept such an innovation: if you have not spent the extra time and personnel strength and welded the fairings and plumage to the barrel (where did you get it?) Then you hang a powerful aerodynamic brake on the plane in the form of a cylinder with perpendicular ends. Moreover, if on the wings, they need two, and God forbid, they will descend at the same time.
Where will the empty barrel fly after dumping, given the low weight, enormous resistance and mysterious flow around it? But she will not come into your tail, spinning incomprehensibly?
Fuel, engine life and aircraft resources in all air forces in any war are limited. Spending it on dangerous experiments with no efficiency is possible, but they do not like fools in any army.

[vadim dok]

The Stuka pilot did not have to determine the dive speed, he had an AUTOMATIC FOR DECING the plane when the required speed was reached!

[novobranets]

Quote: vadim dok

when reaching the necessary speed!

Upon reaching the required height.

[murriou]

Quote: novobranets

unsurpassed accuracy of bombing,

... was the result of low speed and low bomb drop.

When our air defense forces appeared and began to operate, and the infantry, having fired at, stopped panicking at the sight of enemy aircraft and began to meet the "pieces" with small arms fire - the Germans had to descend not so low, aim not so carefully, and immediately the accuracy of bombing "pieces "became much worse than at the test site.

[novobranets]

In the entire history of the Second World War, there was no dive bomber, more precisely, the Yu-87.

[Operator]

It was Tu-2, since it regularly took on board much heavier bombs weighing 1000 kg, including in the bomb bay, dropping them in a dive.

[novobranets]

I was talking about bombing accuracy, not payload. Regrettably, neither the Pe-2, nor the Tu-2, nor the SBD Dauntless, nor the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger, which replaced it, could compare with the "laptezhnik".
.

[Operator]

I have already cited an excerpt from the operational journal of the Soviet Aviation Corps - the Pe-2s routinely came out of a dive at 600 meters. "Stuka" - at 400 meters (which, however, is not confirmed by frontline documents).

Consequently, the accuracy of the dive bombing was the same for them.

As for SBD Dauntless, give a similar indicator.

Check to see if the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger was equipped with a dive-breaker and air brakes.

[novobranets]

Further, Punev says (I quote): “How to bomb, from a dive or horizontally, was not decided by me. The type of bombing depended on the target and, most importantly, on the weather. into a dive 3000 meters, withdrawal - 1800 meters, and two of them take out the car - the pilot and the automatic dive. Moreover, the automatic turns on when the grilles are released. Here, at 1800 meters, the automatic machine works and shifts the trim tab. But in reality, the exit from the dive is obtained at a lower height, because there is "drawdown", and this is another 600-900 meters. If there were no grids, then the "drawdown" would stick into the ground. That is, the actual height of the withdrawal was usually in the region of 1100-1200 meters. There were five times less dives. Unfortunately. Because of the weather. The war does not wait for the weather. If the cloud height is below 3000 meters, then the bombing had to be from a horizontal flight. " (end of citation). From this it follows that the best Soviet air regiments of dive bombers (and even from the most trained aviation corps of I.S. Polbin) made over 80 percent of all their combat bombing from the horizontal.

The accuracy of the hit of the German Ju 87 was slightly higher than that of the pawn, since the Junkers dropped bombs from a height of only 600 - 700 meters, unlike the Pe-2, which bombed from at least a kilometer. In addition, the Lapotnik dived at a relatively low speed (a little over 500 km / h), and the pilot had enough time to correct the flight path

In 1944, the Germans made an attempt to use the Focke-Wulf Fw190F fighter as a dive bomber, which significantly exceeded both the Pe-2 and Ju 87 in flight performance. The main advantage was that, having freed from the bomb load, this dive could easily give fight back to any fighter. However, practice has shown that the accuracy of the Fw190F hit was significantly lower than that of the "old man" Ju 87.

.

Punev (Pe-2 pilot) recalls (I quote): "At first, foolishly, they took the gas before diving, they thought the" drawdown "would be less, but that was nonsense. Then they threw it away. km per hour, the "pawn" is literally hanging on the screws. " (end of citation). According to data from other sources, normal controllability for aiming "in all channels" was ensured when diving up to 720 degrees (dive air speed 50 km per hour), then theoretically, you can take up to 1000 kg of bombs, or when diving up to 60 degrees (dive air speed of 680 km per hour) - from 600 kg of bombs. In practice, if they dived, then most often at an angle of 30 degrees, because when this angle was exceeded, the Pe-2 could not drop bombs from the internal bomb compartments. And with a diving angle of 60 degrees or more - it was dangerous to drop bombs from the external suspension (which Punev casually mentions).

[novobranets]

At TU-2, the bomb bay included ONE bomb weighing one ton. Or FOUR bombs weighing two hundred and fifty kilograms. Or NINE bombs weighing one hundred kilograms. Moreover, bombs entered only new samples with a reduced swing of the stabilizer.
Yes, it could still be suspended from the outside, but then you could forget about speed and range. The authors together rewrite each other's report on the front-line tests of the TU-2. This author even lost his weight in the number of bombs dropped.
So, if you divide the weight of the bombs dropped by the number of sorties, you get about nine hundred kilograms. Those nine bombs weighing one hundred kilograms.
As for four tons, after the war, the aircraft increased its wing area and expanded the bomb bay. From the old TU-2 there were only chassis racks and wheels. They then broke off when the plane tried to take off with four tons of bombs.

Diving is the most important legend of the TU-2 aircraft. It was something like this.
Before the war, the technically illiterate leadership of the Soviet Union decided to bombard the English battleships from a dive. And they should have bombed at ANY point in the world's oceans. Therefore, an order appeared for a four-engine DIVING strategic bomber. Then ambitions diminished and only two engines remained. Then it turned out that the small bombs did not penetrate the armor of the required thickness. There were bombs with a powder accelerator, but the added speed was small. And then there was a SPEED DIP. The aircraft began to dive from a great height and the bomb was detached from it already at a high speed. For some reason, everyone writes that a high initial bomb speed increases accuracy. In fact, it is just the opposite. High dive speed implies a large height of the output from the dive, and this completely eliminates the possibility of accurate aiming. What about a simple dive? But nothing. At first it was impossible to dive, because the screw and engine could not withstand either high-speed or simple dive. And then they just forgot about the dive. And so it turned out a dive bomber that NEVER DID.

[Operator]

So I said that the most accurate dive was the Tu-2, which in a dive could drop bombs from the internal bomb bay.

Drawdown it all drawdown.

[novobranets]

So I said that the most accurate dive was the Tu-2, which in a dive could drop bombs from the internal bomb bay.

He was not like that, because he could not dive. A good front-line bomber, but a dive ...

I thought of taking this little chapter to this plane in the article THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR - MYTHS AND LEGENDS. But the DIVING bomber, which NEVER DIVE, deserves a separate article.

This is about the Tu-2 http://voennoe-obozrenie.ru/main/62-bombardirovsc
hik-tu-2.html

[Operator]

Haaaaaaroshaya article on your link - as evidence of not diving Tu-2 - only CAPSLOCK of an anonymous author

[novobranets]

... All the bombing was carried out from horizontal flight. The bombing of the German garrison in Velikiye Luki at the end of December 1942, as well as raids on the railway junctions Sinelnikovo, Pavlograd, Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk and airfields in Smolensk and Zaporozhye were especially successful. The report of the Sovinformburo dated February 27, 1943 said: "... 18 German bombers were destroyed and burned." This raid was carried out from a height of 400 m by FAB-100 bombs.

I honestly tried to find at least one word about the diving of the Tu-2 (the calculated characteristics are not quoted), I did not find all the references to the bombing only from horizontal flight. Do not share the link?

[BAI]

The Yu-87 had a brake (air, not automobile, so as not to jar), which reduced the speed of the aircraft when diving, which allowed it to be bombed from a lower height and at a greater angle, which increased the accuracy of bombing, our aircraft did not have such a brake - the consequence: low-speed bombing at low angles. Naturally, the accuracy immediately decreased.

[murriou]

Quote: novobranets

in accuracy with the "bastard" could not be compared

1. You do not understand one VERY simple thing: the accuracy of the bombing depends not only on the aircraft, but also on the conditions of its operation.

The first "Newpors" and "Farmers" could achieve much better bombing accuracy than the "pieces".
This is not a joke or an assumption: even before the WWII, there were competitions in throwing oranges at an airplane from a plane; there they achieved very impressive results.
Not because the technique was so perfect, exactly the opposite: the antediluvian "whatnots" were crawling slowly and low, so it was real to get orange into orange on the ground, on "pieces" such a trick would not have worked.

And the notorious accuracy of "pieces" was achievable either at the test site or in the first years of the war.
The reason is the same: speed is low, flight is also low. That’s the whole secret.

As soon as there was a danger of the enemy's response, from the air and from the ground, the pilots of the "pieces" had to raise the bombing altitude and lower the accuracy of aiming at once, and that's all, record accuracy, sorry, goodbye.

2. You do not understand yet another VERY simple thing: the accuracy of bombing does not in itself have practical value, the real combat effect has value.

And in this regard, the aircraft listed by you turned out to be, in terms of a set of parameters, much more useful than "pieces", which is why they survived them on the battlefield.

[dkkayak]

Please clarify on what basis you believe that "Slow but Deadly" was a less accurate aircraft than the Yu87

[Alf]

Quote: novobranets

In the entire history of the Second World War, there was no dive bomber, more precisely, the Yu-87.

It was. Kate.

[novobranets]

Quote: Alf

Kate.

Kate Upton?

[novobranets]

And, it seems, understood, B5N? But what has the torpedo bomber to do, which a priori attacks from a horizontal flight, and at a minimum height?

[Alf]

Quote: novobranets

And, it seems, understood, B5N? But what has the torpedo bomber to do, which a priori attacks from a horizontal flight, and at a minimum height?

You are right, wrong. This is Val.

[novobranets]

D3A1 ... It seems the Japanese themselves called it "Black Stork". Yes, he's good. But like all Japanese aircraft, for the sake of speed and economy of aluminum, which was terribly scarce at that time in Japan, had a weak airframe. And with a slight excess of the dive speed, it could collapse in the air. He was not bad, not very bad. And outwardly it looks prettier than a "bastard". But still I remain at my five kopecks, exactly the first Yu-87.

[demiurg]

Well, yes, when the air is captured, still what to bomb on. And at the end of 42 years, only one point with a spark 7.9 (and that protects only the upper hemisphere) of machine guns is death when they meet with a fighter. And the first things quite successfully spun with Hurricanes. Recent modifications could not afford this. And they could not escape.

[alpamys]

who will explain why they made a broken wing, what are its advantages?

PIECE replica
http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=11588
30584

[novobranets]

Facilitates a conclusion from a dive.

[novel66]

no, for stability, the wing should have a transverse V, but jays are indecently long, and they get a little length of the wing with the same scope. designing a compromise thing

[novobranets]

When withdrawing from a dive, the loads exceeded 6g, and the “inverted gull” wing allowed the aircraft to carry these overloads without much damage to the center section, relatively of course. Plus non-retractable landing gear, Polman did not want to weaken the wing, making niches for the wheels, all these details became decisive when choosing a configuration.

designing a compromise thing

That's it, I’m talking about this, but a compromise should take into account the greatest possible benefit when choosing a design. So, for example, the additional resistance of fixed landing gear racks has become a plus when diving.

[novel66]

Well, in general, we do not contradict each other

[demiurg]

Quote: alpamys

who will explain why they made a broken wing, what are its advantages?

The landing gear is shorter. No more ideas))

Quote: Vladimirets

I would not be so categorical. Since 1943, things really began to suffer serious losses, but even these losses were much lower than the losses of the same Il-2. In addition, since 1943, the new modification of the Ju-87 received a new engine and enhanced defensive armament, which, together with a fairly tenacious structure and experienced pilots, did not make it a training target. So, they were not "easy" prey.

IL-2 suffered more losses, as it crawled near the ground, collecting everything that was possible from air defense.
New powerful engine + weighting design = deterioration of performance characteristics.
When meeting two experienced pilots, the Junkers had no chance.
The lower hemisphere is not covered. Up front, too. 7.9 machine gun when firing at 300-350 meters on a catching plane is virtually useless. No wonder that all defensive weapons were all transferred to 12.7.
And he can’t escape, the speed is small. And there is no vertical maneuver (the design is heavier).

Quote: The same Lech

A serious threat to the tanks was the Yu-87, equipped with a cannon suspended in a special gondola.

Yes, it was like that ... from the top view it pierced the armor of our T-34s like a nut but only aces flew on such JUNCERS ... I can imagine what kind of recoil the weapon had.

If it was effective, it would be allowed into the mass production. Tales of guns or missiles that destroy tanks are just tales. Bombs, ordinary bombs weighing 100-250kg, this is the main enemy of tanks. And what Rudel said, well, so he I told. I could hit, I believe, sometimes even punched, I also believe. But punching does not mean knocking out, much less destroying. Ground-based anti-tank artillery targeted areas of fuel tanks or warheads. The attack aircraft does not have such an opportunity.

[Same lech]

Have you heard about Rudel? The bastard was still there. He was considered a master in this matter, bastard.

Here, perhaps, it is quite appropriate to recall the full list of Rudel's military victories. And he is not small, not at all small. After all, Rudel destroyed about two thousand units of Soviet technology. In addition to tanks, his personal combat account also includes four armored trains, the battleship Marat, which he sank with a special bomb weighing one ton, which penetrated the deck and exploded inside the ammunition compartment, causing the battleship to break in half. A Soviet cars on the account of Rudel as much as eight hundred pieces. And how many Rudel destroyed landing boats, this is generally not amenable to accurate accounting. At the end of the war, Rudel beat Soviet equipment, flying with one leg.

Do you believe that I personally don’t ... too much science fiction ... these stories go on the Internet ... the German pilots' victory calculation methodology was very funny.
О

[novobranets]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

Do you believe that what I personally do not ... too much fiction ...

All these "merits" of Rudel are shamelessly exaggerated 10 times ... The battleship "Marat" Rudel bombed as part of a group, and whose bomb hit the cellars is unknown. It feels like the entire Luftwaffe of the Eastern Front was working to create the image of Rudel. By the way, he is the only one who was awarded the "Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds", in as long.

[novel66]

it is known. there were only two ton bombs - at the comasco and at the mines. komesk missed and he got (well, from his words at least)

[mvg]

Yes, yes, it is a new powerful engine = deterioration of LTH. exactly.

[Niccola Mack]

The landing gear is shorter. No more ideas))

Most likely the way it is - the Yusovites on their F-4 explained this by shortening the chassis (the screw rose accordingly) and improving the visibility.

And, by the way, they considered him a very good fighter and attack aircraft.

Yes, there was one ... from the top view pierced the armor of our T-34

Such guns fired sub-caliber shells and the "knocked-out" T-34 was put into operation within several hours (with rare exceptions).

[BAI]

The T-34 was recovering from a direct hit of a 100 kg bomb (seen photos). I don’t know the fate of the crew.

[motorized rifle]

In terms of strength, there are no pluses. Structurally, the height of the landing gear is reduced.
Most importantly, with such a wing, harmful interference (interaction) between the wing and the fuselage is reduced, which makes it possible to dock the wing to the fuselage without fairings, i.e. production is much easier without compromising aerodynamics. The same solution was applied on the Corsair.

[bionik]

Dive bombers Junkers Yu-87 (Ju-87B) on the assembly line of the Weser factory in Tempelhof.

[bionik]

Stuka ("Stuck") was also tenacious.

[demiurg]

Quote: novobranets

The propellers of the sirens on the fairings are not visible, there were such, for pressure on the psyche, at that time they had not yet been installed, probably. They said about their bombing accuracy: "This bastard can hit a penny with a bomb, or anything, if only this" anything "could be seen from above."

Propellers / sirens are dive speed sensors. And they stood until 41-42 years. In later pieces they were not. Yes, and did not dive late things with large angles. Experienced pilots did not die once, the car became heavier and became not so volatile two.

[fa2998]

Quote: The same LYOKHA

these seemingly archaic planes.

Yes, these are not archaic planes! They were not stupid working on Junkers. In this plane everything works to its strength. When exiting a dive, the plane is exposed to frenzied loads. A very successful plane. Our pretty "dive" Pe-2 has never been used for its intended purpose. and was used then in a gentle dive, if it had been brought up in a dive like the Germans (angle close to 90 degrees) - the plane could have crumbled.

[demiurg]

Quote: fa2998

Quote: The same LYOKHA

these seemingly archaic planes.

Yes, these are not archaic planes! They were not stupid working on Junkers. In this plane everything works to its strength. When exiting a dive, the plane is exposed to frenzied loads. A very successful plane. Our pretty "dive" Pe-2 has never been used for its intended purpose. and was used then in a gentle dive, if it had been brought up in a dive like the Germans (angle close to 90 degrees) - the plane could have crumbled.

90 degrees, right? Nude nude. 70-80 experienced pilot, I believe. The average pilot is usually around 60. But this is on the early days. The later ones became thick and heavy.

[novel66]

from 70 degrees and pawns dived

[BAI]

“Most bombers gave their pilots a vertical dive feeling, but only the Stukas dived exactly like a plumb line, at an angle of 90 ° to the ground. Markings on the right side of the canopy, applied from 0 to 90 °, allowed the pilot to correctly estimate the angle. in level flight mode at a speed of 410 km / h, the bomber accelerated to 540 km / h with a loss of about 1370 m in dive height. The maximum permitted speed of the aircraft was 600 km / h. "
http://toparmy.ru/armii-istorii/nemeckaya-armiya/
lyuftvaffe / boevoe-primenenie-pikiruyushhego-bomba
rdirovshhika-ju-87.html

[novobranets]

Usually the bombing occurred from a dive of 60-80 degrees, but the bombing from an angle of 90, was a mandatory exercise in pilot schools for the Yu-87. At that time, the Germans very long and carefully prepared the flight crew, then they still had the opportunity and time. But at the beginning of 1943 everything will change.

[novobranets]

A rare shot, in the conditions of fog, the pilot started late withdrawal from a dive late, while there were no automatic withdrawal machines.

[Same lech]

Radio raid in the UK

[novobranets]

Yes exactly. About this, even the film was shot, I do not remember the name. But this photograph is genuine, at least they write it like that.

[motorized rifle]

Pe-2 withstood overload up to 12zh without damage! Any fighter will envy. Just because the pawn was faster, the minimum height of the exit from the dive was 1300m, unlike Stuka, it had about 600m. Accordingly, the pawn began to dive from a height of 3000m. For these 1700m the crew had to find a target to aim and drop bombs. Even if you dive with an unrealistically low speed of 360km / h (100m / s), everything is all about 17 seconds. Therefore, after the transfer to VF-190, the aces - Luftwaffe dive bombers stopped bombing from the dive, purely because of the lack of time for aiming. At Pe-2, the pilot and the navigator were also involved in this process. The navigator introduced corrections to the sight, and the pilot aimed and dropped bombs. In addition, the battlefield was often covered with smoke, which accordingly reduced the ability to bomb from a dive, then it was necessary to bomb from the horizon. When the Red Army began to be saturated with means of military air defense, Lapti also raised the height of the withdrawal and that’s it! Accuracy is gone!

[motorized rifle]

I apologize, read: the minimum height of the beginning of the output from the dive

[murriou]

Quote: motorized infantryman

Pe-2 withstood overload up to 12zh without damage! Any fighter will envy.

So he began to be designed as a fighter.
As a result. his maneuverability and strength reserve was appropriate, even in air battles against fighters they had a chance of success.

[Alf]

Quote: motorized infantryman

Therefore, after the transfer to VF-190, the aces - Luftwaffe dive bombers stopped bombing from the dive, purely because of the lack of time for aiming.

Not only because of this. The FV-190 had no bombsight, so the pilots bombed "on the boot."

[BAI]

Pe-2 was designed as a fighter. Only the lack of front-line bombers forced him to change his profile. I didn’t reach the fighter like a bomber - well, I don’t know, it seems to me that if it had been originally designed as a bomber, it would have been better. And the Yu-87 was originally honed as a bomber.

[Free wind]

The plane, which was deliberately given many shortcomings, for the sake of its advantages. He brought us much grief. In skillful hands, it was a magnificent plane.

[demiurg]

Quote: Free Wind

The plane, which was deliberately given many shortcomings, for the sake of its advantages. He brought us much grief. In skillful hands, it was a magnificent plane.

Truly .... In capable hands. Everything in skillful hands becomes a terrible weapon.
And in the hands of an ordinary pilot?

[novobranets]

Quote: demiurg

And in the hands of an ordinary pilot?

There were no ordinary pilots at that time, they were either good or dead.

[Comrade Stalin]

A good aircraft for its time: very accurate and equipped with an automatic exit dive device when dropping a bomb. As already mentioned above, sirens were not needed to suppress the psyche of victims on the ground, but to let the pilot know by their tone what speed the plane was diving around and not be distracted from the sight in such a way, looking at the shield with instruments. But since 1943, when the reign of the Luftwaffe was reduced to nothing, the Stucks became easy prey for Soviet fighters. New Soviet fighters became faster, better armed, more armored, and the training of pilots became much better. As a result, the usual nine pieces with their defensive weapons of 7,92 mm bullets, which were like a spit for the armor of La-5 and Yak-3, became easy prey for Soviet pilots.

[97110]

Quote: Comrade_Stalin

more better

Are you Sveta Kuritsyna, Joseph Vissarionovich?

[Comrade Stalin]

Well, certainly not a cock like you

[97110]

Quote: Comrade_Stalin

Well, certainly not a cock like you

Do you especially protect your illiteracy? Strong. You can see that you own the subject.

[iouris]

Quote: 97110

more better

Alternatively: "more optimal".

[97110]

Quote: iouris

Alternatively: "more optimal".
Reply Quote

You represent the meaning of the word "optimal"? Dig into the tyrnete. At the same time, look at the "tautology". And look for the original source of the piece under discussion. I.V. reacted nervously to Sveta, clearly not knowing that Mrs. Kuritsyna was a completely historical character.

[BAI]

Easier - more powerful weapons.

[Alf]

Quote: Comrade_Stalin

The pieces, with their defensive weapons from a 7,92 mm bullet, which were like a spit for the La-5 and Yak-3 armor, became easy prey for the Soviet pilot

And what kind of armor stood on the Yak-3 and La FRONT? I personally only remember the armored back and armored glass of the lantern.

[Comrade Stalin]

Bulletproof glass FRONT is no longer armor? And you should not forget about the armored ring along the engine.

[Alf]

Quote: Comrade_Stalin

Bulletproof glass FRONT is no longer armor? And you should not forget about the armored ring along the engine.

And where exactly did such details stand on the Yak-3 and LA-5? Can I have a scheme?
I know about bulletproof glass, but about the armored ring ... You, by chance, did not confuse LA and FV-190?

[mvg]

the armored ring of the engine is strong. need to remember. I understand, they wanted to protect the cooling radiators, but the armored ring ...))

[Comrade Stalin]

Where did you see cooling radiators in a star-shaped engine of air cooling?

[97110]

Quote: Comrade_Stalin

Where did you see cooling radiators in a star-shaped engine of air cooling?

Quote: Comrade_Stalin

were like a spit for armor La-5 and Yak-3

And where did you, IV, find a star of air cooling on the Yak-3? And isn't the fins of the air-cooled engine cylinders on the LA-5 a radiator?

[zyablik.olga]

Quote: Comrade_Stalin

As a result, the usual Nine Pieces with their defensive armament of 7,92-mm pukalki, which were like spitting for the armor La-5 and Yak-3, became easy prey for Soviet pilots.

I especially "liked" about the "armor" on the La-5 and Yak-3

[bionik]

Here was a photo like this:Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin and a member of the State Defense Committee, Georgy Maximilianovich Malenkov, accompanied by officers at an exhibition of captured German equipment at the Gorky Central Park for Contemporary Art in Moscow. On the right is the diving bunker Junkers Yu-87 (Ju.87D), on the left is the Fokke-Wulf Fw.200C “Condor” bomber.

[demiurg]

Quote: bionik

Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin and a member of the State Defense Committee, Georgy Maximilianovich Malenkov, accompanied by officers at an exhibition of captured German equipment at the Gorky Central Park for Contemporary Art in Moscow. On the right is the diving bunker Junkers Yu-87 (Ju.87D), on the left is the Fokke-Wulf Fw.200C “Condor” bomber.

Condor? I did not know that the USSR had this pepelats.

[Waiting for BPS]

Initially, a civilian airliner, later there were attempts to use the Fw.200C as a bomber, but it didn’t work out. Lived as a scout. If I’m not mistaken, Hitler had one (such as board No. 1)

[Same lech]

A rare photo ...

[iouris]

"Condor" is not a bomber, but a strategic reconnaissance aircraft and, probably, an aircraft for special operations. I suspect that the Germans maintained communication with Japan, having airfields in the interior of the USSR.

[The leader of the Redskins]

If I am not mistaken, then even the Japanese acquired the "piece" and delivered it to themselves in disassembled form on submarines for the purpose of copying, but something went wrong with them ...

[alpamys]

1941 film "Stuff"

[Razvedka_Boem]

This is not an article, but a note. The comments have more information than the author. The topic is not disclosed.
Minus.

[vadim dok]

Completely with you. I agree! There were very interesting author's ideas and Automata on the "Stuck"!

[iouris]

The point is not only in the aircraft, but in the unique system of fire destruction created by German engineers, an element of which was the strike aircraft Yu-87.
In the Red Army Air Force, such an aircraft could not be used as effectively. Few people think about this. As for the results of the "Stakhanovite" Rudel, there is most likely too much Nazi propaganda and self-promotion. In the end, the rudes lost the war.

[vadim dok]

All the achievements of ALL pilots (and not only) must be divided by at least 3!

[iouris]

Quote: vadim dok

must be divided by at least 3

those. by pi or 22/3

[murriou]

The Germans did not require confirmation of ground services, like ours, to record a victory for the pilot. Enough statements of the pilot himself.
"Here the map immediately flooded me!" (C)

[Alf]

Quote: murriou

The Germans did not require confirmation of ground services, like ours, to record a victory for the pilot. Enough statements of the pilot himself.
"Here the map immediately flooded me!" (C)

And it would be problematic to get such confirmations from the summer of the 43rd, when the front stably moved to the West.

[Dekabrist]

It's not about the plane itself. Ju-87 did not have any outstanding flight and combat qualities for its time. The point is in the system, in the organization of interaction of all types of armed forces during military operations. Without this, even the most outstanding weapons will not help.
The conduct of hostilities is also a science. The Germans were one of the best in this science at that time, and probably the best. All the more significant is the feat of the Soviet (Soviet !!!) soldier who left his autograph on the walls of the Reichstag.

[novobranets]

Quote: Dekabrist

The conduct of hostilities is also a science. The Germans were one of the best in this science at that time, and probably the best. All the more significant is the feat of the Soviet (Soviet !!!) soldier who left his autograph on the walls of the Reichstag.

[rubin6286]

The Yu-87 aircraft is described in sufficient detail in the literature. I propose to the authors of comments to read the following materials about this aircraft:

1. M.E. Zefirov "Luftwaffe Assault Aviation",
Ast Publishing House, Moscow, 2001
2. H.U. Rudel "Dive pilot"
Ast Publishing House, Moscow, 2001
3. A. Medved, D. Khazanov “Junkers” Ju-87 - dive bomber.
Moscow, publishing house "Yauza", "Collection", "Eksmo" 2007
4. V. Petrov "Junkers Ju-87" Stuka ",
Exprint Publishing House, Moscow, 2009
5. A. Kling “Junkers” Ju-87 “Stuka” in battle
Moscow, publishing house "Yauza", "Eksmo" 2011
6. N.V. Yakubovich "Hitler's Falcons". Luftwaffe in battle.
Moscow, Yauza Press Publishing House, 2011
You can download these books and many other military topics on the Internet for free without SMS and registration, if you go to war.kruzz.com.

In general, the Military Review website has become much worse in its new form than it was before. Many "knowledgeable people" left him. Previously, there was a division according to the branches of service and the pilots “did not climb” to the gunners, and the sailors to the tankers, now everything is in a heap - tanks, guns, ships. Between the authors of many comments on the site there is empty talk and retrial. In a word, this is not great.

[murriou]

Rudel's memoirs and reports are about the same adventure-fantasy material as the famous Rudnev reports.

[Operator]

The Thing was originally designed for action only after air supremacy was won. After the loss of German domination, the Stukas began to pop like seeds.

The German aircraft designers did not manage to bring the LTX of their only dive bomber to the level of Pe-2 or, especially, Tu-2 (the latter with liquid-cooled engines was not inferior in speed to fighters).

[rubin6286]

You are very poorly versed in aviation and read very little. What kind of inertness of German designers can be discussed when the whole of Europe worked for Germany. At the disposal of the Germans were the most advanced designs of French, Dutch, Belgian, Italian and even American designers. In aircraft manufacturing, the Germans were at the forefront. Before the war, the Soviet Union purchased some samples of German aircraft for familiarization and copying. because in many matters: special materials and equipment, the design of individual components and assemblies, engine building, etc., our design bureaus lagged behind.
Yu-87 - the car is successful because its design exactly corresponds to its purpose. The Junkers was a dive bomber and hit targets exclusively from a dive. In this capacity, it was indispensable and was produced almost throughout the war.
Depending on the modification of the performance characteristics of the machine, they changed.
If we talk about speed, then the U-87A had a maximum speed of 285 km / h, and the U-87 G reached 420 km / h. As for the Pe-2, it was never a “pure” dive and was originally created as a high-altitude fighter. Only experienced crews could hit targets with a dive on it. During the war, only one air regiment in the General Polbin corps, formed in 2 from test pilots, was engaged exclusively in hitting targets from a dive on the Pe-1941. All the others bombed targets from horizontal flight or from a gentle dive. The accuracy of hitting the target in both cases was low. "Pawn" was a fast plane and in horizontal flight "empty" reached a speed of 560km / h. In a fully equipped state, she flew at a cruising speed of 400 km / h, which was also quite a lot. Tu-2 is also not a dive-bomber, but a front-line bomber. He was supposed to replace the Security Council, but his introduction into the series during the war period was delayed, and then was completely postponed, because ASH-82 engines standing on it were required for Lavochkin's fighters. They returned to the production of Tu-2 after the war, and in the past war, instead of the Tu-2, the American A-20Zh Boston were used as front-line bombers, reconnaissance aircraft, torpedo bombers - they were solid and good cars for their time, but they were not dive bombers.

[Operator]

You are undoubtedly super cool in aviation if you "know" about the production of Tu-2 only after the war

To expand your horizons, the number of Tu-2 series-produced from 1942 to 1945 of the year was 800 machines (from the 1943 of the year, a modernized Tu-2С was produced in significant quantities). The carrying capacity of the Tu-2 was 2 tons, the Tu-2С was 3 tons, the speed was 500 and 547 km / h. On the Tu-2 and Tu-2С, automatic devices for diving from diving were installed AP-3 and AP-3М, respectively, designed for overload 3,5 – 4 g.

Judging by your "knowledge," APs on Tu were installed purely specifically for the ballast

Now compare the LTX Tu-2С with the sloppy LTX of the European miracle in feathers - Ju 87 of any modification.

PS As for the Douglas A-20 Havoc / DB-7 Boston bomber, operating from horizontal flight, as an analogue of the Tu-2, you did not anneal the deca.

[Razvedka_Boem]

Yes, something skipped Ostap ..)

[rubin6286]

I will not discover something new and special if I say that you need not just to read the literature of interest, but to delve into the meaning of what you read, while rethinking the material and understanding the author’s intention, that is, in plain language, “turn on the brain”. You, like your colleague Alf, are “far from the helm” and have very superficial knowledge of aviation topics. This practically discounts your comment, making it completely unnecessary.

It is hardly worth explaining what you are wrong with. About Tu-2 there is a wonderful monograph: M. Saukke "Tu-2 Part 1" ed. House "Technique - Youth", Moscow, 2001 I advise you to read it.
Tu-2S - not a modernized Tu-2, but the so-called "standard", i.e. standard for mass production. Those cars that were made before him were experienced and were “run-in and tested by battle”. Tu-2S passed state. tests in December 1943. According to their results, it was identified as a single-engine front-line bomber and brake lattices were removed from it. He did not begin to dive, and it was completely wrong to compare it with the Yu-87. In the future (during and after the war), modifications were developed on the basis of the Tu-2C:
Tu-2R - reconnaissance (December 1944, and since December 1946 it was called Tu-6);
Tu-2 Sh - attack aircraft (1944 - January 1947);
Tu-2 T - torpedo bomber (1944 - August 1948);
Tu-2 SDB - high-speed long-range bomber (May 1944 - November 1946);
Tu-2 P - fighter-interceptor (1943-1947);
Tu-2 D - long-range bomber (from 1941-1948);
UTB-2 - (training bomber (1946).

Now in the order of "educational program".

A dive pilot is a particular aircraft. Being a “battlefield plane”, it does not “hang” over this “field”, but “works” according to predetermined and visible goals. He does not need high speed and a significant bomb load, too. To me in Germany, the Germans flying on the U-87 said they preferred it to the U-88, Heinkel and Dornier because "the car is small, nimble, only 4 bombs - 1-2 calls and" home ". To get to the target with a dive, I was taught that "the target must be large, the distance to it is small and the eye is correct", that is. the peak should be steep, dropping bombs and leaving the peak as low as possible and with clear visibility the target should be firmly fixed in the sight. These conditions are feasible when bombing from low altitudes. Automatic machines for removing from the peak of AP-3, installed on Soviet aircraft in the last war, allowed entering at a peak from a height of 2 thousand meters and leaving it at an altitude of 1500, at least 1000 meters. The Germans dived from a height of 1500 m at an angle of 60-80 degrees and left the peak at an altitude of 400 m. They saw the target better and ceteris paribus were more accurate.

As for the A-20 Boston aircraft, there is a very good monograph by V. Kotelnikov “Bostons” in the Soviet Union ”, BTV-MN Publishing House 2002
I will give you only one excerpt from it, so that you understand that I haven’t "annealed" anything in kind.

Page 30: “The first A-20Gs appeared on the Soviet-German front in the summer of 1943. The A-20G has become in our aviation a truly multi-purpose aircraft, performing a wide variety of functions - a day and night bomber, reconnaissance, torpedo bomber and mine-trap, a heavy fighter and even a transport aircraft. It was used only a little as an attack aircraft - for its main purpose. The A-20G was vulnerable to anti-aircraft gunners at low altitudes due to its considerable size and weak armor cover. Only when surprise was achieved could one rely on the Boston’s relative safety when attacking in conditions of well-tuned German air defense. ”
Comparing it with the Yu-87 is also completely pointless.

[Operator]

Do not cast a shadow on the wattle fence - Tu-2С is the basic model of a dive bomber with 2М-82Ф engines, an AP-3М dive machine and air brakes. All other non-diving modifications of the Tu-2 were made on its basis mainly after the war, of course, with the removal of the AP and air brakes.

It is good that you yourself (though for some reason it is foggy with indicating the heights of the exit from the dive) have confirmed this.

Again, you were the first to mention the "horizontal" bomber "Boston" (neither to the village nor to the city), which necessitated my answer.

[rubin6286]

I will repeat to you again that the Tu-2S is not a modernized Tu-2, but the so-called "standard", i.e. the standard for serial production, and the first aircraft from the series being produced will be the base. In Saukke's monograph, there is everything about testing the Tu-2S and other Tu and fulfilling the requirements of the military. It was on the Tu-2 S that the brake grilles were removed and all Tu-2 vehicles produced since 1943 were no longer dive bombers. Before Tu-2S "yes", after it - "no".

[Operator]

As for the height of the exit from the peak of Soviet dive aircraft, from the operational report of the headquarters of the 6 Guards Bomber Air Corps from 11 on February 1945 of the year:

"Eight Pe-8 crews under the command of the commander of the guard corps, Major General Polbin, between 2-15.30 from an altitude of 15.45-1500 meters from a closed circle dive bombarded and stormed troops and equipment in the southwestern part of Breslau.
When bombarding groups by diving from a closed circle on the fourth approach to the target, a direct hit from an SZA projectile set fire to an aircraft piloted by the Guard Major General Polbin with the chief navigator of the 2nd Guards Tank Guard Lieutenant Colonel M.K. . S. Orlov. "

[rubin6286]

I.S. Polbin in the USSR was a "pioneer" of dive bombing. It was he who, in 1939, sent a letter to the People's Commissariat of Defense, where he substantiated the need to build such a machine. It was reviewed and a positive decision was made. Interesting projects were developed, but the construction of the full-scale model for a number of reasons was not carried out. Since the Pe-2 had acceptable LTX and had sufficient strength, it was decided to launch it in mass production and use it for dive bombing.

Initially, there was no automaton for removing from the peak at all, and the pilot, when taking out of the dive, had to rely on the strength of his muscles and eye. Polbin was a physically strong man, he coped with the machine and proved that even in these conditions you can hit the target. The AP-3 was configured so that the minimum height of the output from the peak was within 1000 meters. It could be turned off and dive "even to the ground." Achieving the defeat of the target, he violated the instructions and reduced the height of the exit from the peak, and using a “turntable” (circle) increased the time of “hovering” over the target and the likelihood of being hit by MZA fire (the same “German”: 1-2 visits and “home”) .
Had he the right to do this ?. I think I did. The right to take risks when completing the assigned combat mission always belongs to the pilot, and piloting the aircraft itself is always fraught with risk.

[Operator]

Quote: rubin6286

I will repeat to you again that the Tu-2S is not a modernized Tu-2, but the so-called "standard", i.e. the standard for serial production, and the first aircraft from the series being produced will be the base. In Saukke's monograph, there is everything about testing the Tu-2S and other Tu and fulfilling the requirements of the military. It was on the Tu-2 S that the brake grilles were removed and all Tu-2 vehicles produced since 1943 were no longer dive bombers. Before Tu-2S "yes", after it - "no".

You do not repeat it to me, but to the author of the profile article on VO Sergey Yuferov
https://topwar.ru/18194-aviaciya-krasnoy-armii-ve
likoy-otechestvennoy-voyny-chast-2-pikiruyuschie-
bombardirovschiki-pe-2-i-tu-2.html

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

German aircraft designers in their inertia

It is not a matter of inertia. Each structure has its own reserve for modernization, the Yu-87 design was outdated already at the time of the start of their serial production, all reserves were exhausted by the beginning of WWII, and the aircraft coped with its tasks only due to the lack of effective counteraction.

When this opposition appeared, the age of the "thing" ended.

[Operator]

What prevented the German designers from developing a replacement for the Stuka?

[murriou]

They tried. But there was not enough time (they were puzzled late), resources, and much more. Plus psychological inertia, attempts to use what is already there - theoretically, the possibility of diving was incorporated into the Ju-88 and many other multipurpose aircraft. As a result, attack aircraft and bomb-loaded fighter-bombers have actually replaced the "pieces" in functionality.

[Operator]

Well, there was simply nothing to replace a dive aircraft with sniper accuracy of bombing during WWII (isolated cases of the use of horizontal bombs do not count).

Separate bookmarks are not rolled into the design of other models of German airplanes either - a specially designed design is required that can withstand overloads when exiting a dive, with special points for attaching air brakes, reverse screws, etc.

Lack of resources is also not an explanation, the Germans spawned so many half-realized aircraft projects in WWII that you would lose your mind.

The level of professionalism in the Junkers company was lower than in the Tupolev Design Bureau - this is the real reason.

[rubin6286]

The highest level of professionalism in the USSR was from 1929 to 1945. in KB Yakovlev. This was reflected both in the number of cars created during this period, and in individual elements of their design, which have become truly classic. During this period, none of the machines created at the Tupolev Design Bureau was in no way superior to foreign analogues, both in general and in individual structural elements. "Junkers" were more technological, improved and with each modification they became more and more perfect.

[Operator]

Yakovlev was zero in aviation and a heavyweight in politics (personal adviser to I.V. Stalin).

In connection with the specified Yakovlev Design Bureau during WWII, it was possible to check in with no Yak-9 and a Yak-3 jump aircraft. And one and the second were sloppy models against the background of La-5 and La-7, against which Yakovlev desperately intrigued, disrupting in fact their mass production.

After the war, Yakovlev’s design bureau in the military field for 50 years demonstrated its creative impotence until the 2000 years, when it finally managed to release the Yak-130.

[rubin6286]

I won’t even argue with you. “Cadres decide everything” and I agree with that. Stalin didn’t consult with them ... and didn’t bring them closer to him.
A.S. Yakovlev was very demanding of himself and subordinates, sometimes even cruel, but such was the situation at that time. He alone dared to argue with Stalin and was not afraid to defend his opinion. Many of the organizational decisions made by him passed the test of time and were correct. Do not trust the idle fiction and gossip of envious people. I follow the periodicals and make sure that the real book about Yakovlev has not yet been written. He was young and possessed not only the talent of a designer, but also the makings of a competent manager and sensible organizer of production. This is not given to everyone.

[iouris]

Quote: Operator

German aircraft designers in their inertia

You said this very "strongly". But, comrade Stalin, they say, on the contrary, literally bowed before the German engineering thought.
Ju-87 - performed the tasks that Mi-24 perform today. In this case, Ju-87 was often based several kilometers from the front line. For such tasks, "speed" is not needed.
Of course, such a technology could be applied only in conditions of air supremacy. Therefore, the Germans always reached it. Our intelligence reported that there will be no war, because the Germans do not have winter uniforms. But Hitler planned to take Moscow in August 1941.
Pe-2 is the Soviet version of the Bf-110.

[Alf]

Quote: iouris

Pe-2 is the Soviet version of the Bf-110.

It is necessary to have a bite. PE-2-dive bomber, Bf-110-multirole fighter.

Quote: iouris

But, comrade Stalin, they say, on the contrary, literally bowed to German engineering.

And how exactly did he bow, storytellers do not speak?

[Operator]

novobranets,
“At the end of 1942, another regiment, armed with the Tu-2 - 12th BAP, arrived at the Kalinin Front. The crews of both units attacked targets in the enemy's near rear mainly from horizontal flight, since there were failures of dive assault rifles.
The termination of mass production of the Tu-2 affected the intensity of its combat use - from the middle of the 1943, the Tu-2 were used mainly for reconnaissance flights. In July, 1943 g, in the battles on the Kursk Bulge participated 18 such aircraft as part of the 285 th dietary supplement. The situation began to change in 1944, with the deployment of the serial production of the Tu-2С. They entered the 334 dietary supplement of the 13 VA, which by July 1944 had 83 Tu-2С. They made their debut in the battle of July 9 1944 during the Vyborg operation. Airplanes attacked enemy strongholds. July 17 59 Tu-2 With the 334 dietary supplement bombed the Vybogsky railway junction. 27 July 62 vehicles hit Mitawa Station. Subsequently, until the victory over Germany, the division operated in the Baltic states and Poland. At the end of 1944, a second formation appeared on the Soviet-German front, armed with the Tu-2С - the 326-I dietary supplement.
To participate in the war against Japan, two corps armed with Tu-2S were transferred from Europe - the 6th BAC (326th and 334th BAD) and the 7th BAC (113th and 179th BAD). As of August 9, 1945, there were a total of 287 Tu-2S in them. "

http://www.airaces.ru/plane/tu-2.html

Only the Tu-2 did not dive (and then only "predominantly") due to the failure of the dive machines. The modernized Tu-2S with new dive assault rifles no longer had these problems.

[iz odessy]

Of course, only the one who operated it can speak and write about the aircraft with authority. In this case, of course, Gh Rudel. From his memoirs I remember: 1. during the war he was never shot down in an air battle, the only time he came close to this (according to his text) over the territory of Romania in 1944, when our pilot drove him in low pursuit, some sources testified about the regiment commander Shestakov , but eventually collided with the ground 2. diving - as the main method of bombing, he succeeded to such an extent (I mean, the conclusion, who understands this maneuver, will understand that he flew with fir branches in the stabilizer. The arrows shied away with him to fly 3. В1945 m in winter, from a turret machine gun on an IS tank, two presumably (by them) Asians shot off his leg, and so he estimated the bend radius when he entered the tank as! 50 meters, and since 1943 he flew on a Yu87 modification with a 37mm cannon, which really complicated and serious piloting ..... Statements that this dive bomber, U87 is "nothing special" do not stand up to criticism, and references to high losses are simply absurd. This is a "battlefield" aircraft, like the IL2 with the maximum we are in the affected areas of ground air defense and of course fighter aircraft

[BAI]

The article is about what? It would be better if extracts from Rudel’s memoirs would have led.