Military Review

"Caspian monsters" are back

128
The notification received by the author about the positive result of the examination of the application for the Ekranoplan invention will allow promoting this project, which can say a new word both in transportation and in the creation of a real ocean fleet Russia.


Heavy ekranoplanes are in fact the only type of weapons and military equipment where our country is already more than 50 years ahead of the design and engineering developments (“Dry cargo ship“ Farewell, Montana ”). Let me try again to justify the absolute possibility and the most urgent need for the development of this "our" mode of transport, which is easily transformed into a new type of strike weapons.

We will assume that any ground-winged ground-wing vehicle (WV) takes off from 500 up to five thousand tons heavy, and up to 18 – 20 thousand tons - super heavy. By the way, so far no one in the world has exceeded the characteristics of the KM-1 displacement developed by Rostislav Alekseev. It is necessary to determine the fact that such a ground-effect vehicle from the point of view of flight altitude. It should not exceed the length of the chord of the main or main wing, and the roll and pitch are within the strictly defined and relatively small values ​​established by field tests.

The airplane scheme of under construction and projected WIG has no future - it does not contribute to the self-destruction of involuntary cabre. The design of the center-section in the form of a mono-wing is due to the need to have on the upper plane of the runway, sufficient for the take-off and landing of two aircraft in the displacement mode. Inside in the median plane, the vessel has paired, at least two-level (double-decked) rooms, the feature of which is composite floors (deck-platforms) with measurements multiple of the number of sea containers and dimensions of combat aircraft. The main power plant consists of two nuclear reactors with a total power sufficient to travel on the screen in cruise flight mode at a speed of 300 nodes (approximately 300 – 450 MW each with a take-off weight of 16 thousand tons).

When starting and landing, additional capacities of turbopropfan engines (TVVD) are turned on - about half of the power required for cruising. Trapezoidal wings with swivel floats at the ends, where the propulsion systems are located — TWDPA on the pylons, adjoin the center section.

"Caspian monsters" are backTo improve the aerodynamic properties in flight and reduce the starting power of the propulsion complex, the displacement hull - hydrolic with jet propulsion system - is capable of retracting into the center section after launch. Unlike traditional air cushion schemes with separate drives on it and on the motion, a TVWD-driven scheme was used for fan-compressors mounted in the side wings flush with the wing system, which are closed in louvre louvres in cruise mode.

Underwing space when starting or landing on an air cushion is protected by a system of swivel slats, flaps and restrictive washers. Three systems were used to stabilize the pitch flight: a specific location of the center of gravity and the aerodynamic focus of the apparatus, fan-compressor units on the mono-wing extremities used at the start to create an air cushion, and a system of stern and fore horizontal stabilizers installed on the center section and side wings. All parameters of the device are calculated. In the transitional regime, columns with supercavitating tandem screws are put forward from the vertical vertical stabilizers from planing to separation from the water surface.

Approximate dimensions of the ground effect vehicle: length - 250 meters, width - 300 meters, height - 35 meters, draft - 3,5 – 4,5 meters. The total power of the power plant at launch is within 840 – 900 MW, in flight - 550 – 650 MW. At the same time, the thrust-to-weight ratio will not exceed 0,115 – 0,120, which is less than this value for KM WT by more than two times. To facilitate the start, the load per unit area of ​​thinner wings is reduced by about half as compared with KM and Orlenk - about 200 – 250 kilograms per square meter against 450, which corresponds to modern fighters. The aerodynamic quality of the vehicle at an altitude of 40 – 50 meters must be at least 22 – 26, the Froude number must be within 10 – 11. The power distribution of the power plant - 4 of a jet-driven vehicle NKA 20 or engines NK-20 according to 20 MW); retractable tandem columns with supercavitating screws, hydraulic or electric (with cryogenically cooled superconducting windings of built-in electric motors) from a nuclear power plant with a total power of 150 – 220 MW; 4 NKA 40 for 30 – 40 MW - drive to fan-compressors installed in the ends of the center-monocry in the usual non-nuclear variant, 8 tandems of the cranked TVVD engines - channelless TVVD, that is, 16 engines for 40 MW (for 92) (mechanical, hydraulic or otherwise) on 55 fan-compressors in the side wings behind the pylons. In the nuclear version, the tandem NCA-8 (development NK-10 and GE-12) tandem NKA-1055 closest to the center section of the 93 – 36 engines are 50 – 55 MW. The rest of the usual TVVD, are used during the start and landing. Subtleties and details omitted.

For heavy and extra-heavy ekranoplans, it is preferable to have the most economical transport NPI in combination with HVDD. Although it is believed that at speeds up to 600 kilometers per hour can come up and powerful besatunnye ICE Balandina. The experience of creating atoms in our country is also quite significant: in the 60s, an atomic Tu-119 with two NK-14А engines was tested with a good weight-to-power ratio - approximately 3 – 3,5. Anti-submarine An-22 with an almost spent NPU was able to fly without refueling for at least 48 hours.

On the clock in the Hudson Bay

Combat ekranoplans can be aircraft carriers, anti-submarine, anti-missile and landing. The latter includes any civilian variant, since a relatively small draft and a nasal tip hanging above the water make it possible to approach the shore and plant military equipment and soldiers. As for the over-the-horizon landing now fashionable in the West, there are no problems here at all. From the forward end of the apparatus, high-speed floating craft with a displacement of up to 500 tons with weapons and manpower are launched. The second combat method of using civilian ekranoplanes in the event of a military threat is the transportation of 300 40-feet or 600 20-feet containers of the Club system to the coast of the enemy. You can use them from four lifts on the upper plane of the monocryl, with several dozen salvos at once.

Inside the aircraft-carrying ekranoplan will accommodate 22-24 heavy fighters, AWACS aircraft. Heavy high-altitude drones will stand on the upper plane of the mono-wing outside the runway; Application aviation it is possible in two modes - in displacement (for reconnaissance and patrol aircraft) and in combat, at a speed of about 150 knots, while a catapult is not required. Aircraft maintenance is carried out according to the conveyor principle: airplanes land and roll out on bow lifts, descend to the lower deck and there they move to the aft lifts, while preparing for the next sorties.

In the anti-submarine version, it is possible to place two submachine guns like the 705 submarine of a XNUMX submarine project with a displacement of up to two thousand tons or several underwater drones inside the center-mono wing, and helicopters and PLO aircraft on the upper plane of the center-mono wing. Since the combat duty routes of American SSBNs are well known, on occasion, the action of the main, most dangerous component of the US strategic nuclear forces can be completely disorganized.

The ekranoplan of anti-missile purpose to describe in detail makes no sense. Three tasks for this type can be noted. The first and foremost is neutralization of ground-based SNF. The starting position is near Vancouver in the Pacific Ocean, near Halifax in the Atlantic, in the Hudson Bay, from where it is easiest to intercept starting “Minutemen” from North Dakota, Wyoming and Montana. The second task is to cover the Arctic and adjacent areas together with the Russian Aerospace Force. And the third is the neutralization of anti-missile systems capable of shooting down nuclear warheads on a downward trajectory.

Eurasian Arctic Bridge

The Russian Navy has a choice: copy the old Western technology or get ahead of them forever. The aircraft carriers "Storm" and nuclear destroyers with a displacement of heavy cruisers will not lead us to the forefront. Following this path, we will not create a real ocean fleet, except to get connections of disparate ships scattered over the water area and dangling who where with the speed of tanker tankers accompanying them. Right now, until the construction of heavy ships has begun, it is possible and necessary to fulfill the dream of Admiral Sergei Georgievich Gorshkov of several hundred EFVs for the Russian Navy. Moreover, there are both technical capabilities and economic prerequisites for the creation of a new type of sub-Eurasian water transport, together with the Chinese, and perhaps even with the Indian, Iranian partners.

We offer to arrange an open or closed competition for the development of a new shipbuilding program that would meet the realities of the 21st century. We have lost time, but we still have about 10 years to decide what to build - aircraft carriers, and most likely coastal defense, such AUG, as in the United States, equipped with ships with nuclear power plants, we will not overpower. You can start designing now and in two or three years to begin construction of an intermediate version of a heavy ground surface vehicle with a displacement of up to five thousand tons, using the design of a homogeneous liquid metal coolant reactor up to 100 MW and modified NK-93 engines developed by Gidropress. And after testing the device, determine the directions for the development of the shipbuilding program.

We still have the opportunity to become a scientific and technical Eurasian transport bridge between the rapidly developing Southeast Asia and the rest of the world through a new transport system and at the same time create a new type of weapon that will exert direct pressure on the main likely enemy.

The development and operation of such a system with the total cost of the Eurasian countries will not become an unbearable burden for the budget of the Russian Federation. The civilian version of the ekranoplans can initially be used on the Northern Sea Route, in increasing the traffic through which China and Europe are primarily interested. Calculations show that for the transportation of 50 million tons, and the need for such volumes may arise by the 2020 year, on the Murmansk-Shanghai line, 90 – 100 ships with 65 deadweight of thousands of tons are required, while moving along the Northern Sea Route at an average speed of 13,4 of the node takes about 23 days. For delivery of a similar cargo with heavy ekranoplans with a deadweight of 10 thousand tons with a speed of 324 node (600 kilometers per hour), no more than 18 – 20 vessels will be required, and the transition time will not exceed 24 hours. The potential demand for transportation along this route exceeds 650 million tons - so much cargo is now passing through the Suez Canal.

The main design solution of the project is the use of specialized similar cargo spaces inside the center section, equipped with several loading and unloading systems. In the military version they can accommodate airplanes and any other equipment, in the civilian - standard containers and other cargoes. With the threat of nuclear confrontation, both combat and transport vehicle wig, armed with cruise missiles, can be transferred to the shores of the main likely enemy in less than a day. Calculations show that in peacetime near the coast of the United States it is necessary to keep from four to six groups of super-heavy ekranoplanes. Each consists of three or four vessels with anti-submarine to anti-missile functionality and a total number of combat aircraft up to 80.

Native ocean expanses

The strategy of using the Soviet Navy in peacetime assumed the duty of ocean multi-purpose connections, primarily near the coast of the main likely enemy. It was the time of the highest military power of the country: there were magnificent middle class ships, excellent naval aviation, a huge number of diesel submarines, but all this threatened the likely enemy in the European or Far East theater. In fact, we were able to create only one permanent maritime unit outside our coastal zone - the Mediterranean squadron. Even starting to build the newest ocean-class ships, we will never reach the combined power of the fleets of NATO and Japan, which are armed with the latest modifications of the Aegis system.

Therefore, it is proposed to step over the standard approaches to the construction of the fleet and create a universal maritime transport and combat system capable of taking us to the forefront. At the same time, the civilian branch is a purely Eurasian, serving the transport needs of the SCO and as the ocean transportation industry is developing BRICS. There is no need for many communications, for example in the Panama Canal: super-heavy W-10s can cross the isthmus over the territory of Nicaragua at altitudes up to 200 meters above sea level.

The Russian Federation has the greatest scientific and technical groundwork both in the ekranoplans and in aviation with nuclear power plants. We are the only ones in the world who have experience in building transport homogeneous reactors: there is a Gidropress project with a capacity under 100 MW, all that is needed is to increase it, there are developments in the creation of ultra-light and ultra-strong structural materials.

It is necessary to set the tasks correctly and immediately build an ekranoplan by an order of magnitude more powerful than Alekseevsky, which our probable "partners" called "Caspian monsters." The task is difficult, but quite capable. It is necessary to understand what a slice of the loaf of global transport infrastructure can be grabbed off, and even a “partner” to sting.
Author:
Originator:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/33619
128 comments
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  1. novobranets
    novobranets 19 November 2016 06: 50
    +30
    "Caspian monsters" are back
    Nice name for a fantastic work yes . But no drama request , the theme of love is not disclosed love and patriotism soldier . And where is the plotted American villain spy bully ?
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 19 November 2016 07: 44
      +4
      laughing laughing good Shelf Script winked ...
      1. bouncyhunter
        bouncyhunter 19 November 2016 11: 16
        +7
        You can’t refuse a fantasy to the author. It's time to write books. hi
      2. 210ox
        210ox 19 November 2016 11: 27
        +1
        You can go to Hollywood .. They have tension with themes ..
        Quote: Rurikovich
        laughing laughing good Shelf Script winked ...
    2. smershxnumx
      smershxnumx 19 November 2016 08: 22
      +8
      Yeah, the author piled the garden ... YaEU ... fighters ... AWACS ... Fantastic. Unscientific. Rather, fantasy ... IMHO.
  2. Zebus
    Zebus 19 November 2016 06: 53
    +7
    Here I immediately had three questions (in addition to financial problems):
    1. Who will do: design, produce?
    2. Where will they do: at what production base?
    3. How will they be used: the construction of basing places, the training of personnel (training facilities, etc.), the order of combat use?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 19 November 2016 22: 45
      +2
      Another fourth question is forgotten - Who will give it all hundreds of billions of rubles.
  3. Senior manager
    Senior manager 19 November 2016 06: 57
    +8
    A promising car, but it is necessary to determine for what, for what needs. For a container ship, the speed is very good, the competitor in the transportation market is the most powerful. In the article there is not even a hint of economic indicators, what is the cost of one car, what is the cost of an hour of flight, and under our tight financial conditions, important factors. The military modification of the ekranoplan should be completely self-sufficient in terms of defense, otherwise there should be an order for smaller military "relatives" and support, I don't see the logistics here, because territories are not controlled. And the way of transportation itself is progressive and tempting.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 07: 43
      +12
      Quote: St. Propulsion
      The article does not even hint at economic indicators

      Because they are catastrophic. This development does not have military significance, because significantly inferior in effectiveness to missile-carrying aircraft
      1. Bloodsucker
        Bloodsucker 19 November 2016 08: 57
        +11
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        significantly inferior in effectiveness to missile-carrying aircraft

        The military thought differently. While living in Kaspiysk, this machine impresses, and only those who served it used it ... Gorbachev and Yeltsin had to stick an aspen stake for killing this subject both in military and civilian use.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 19 November 2016 09: 38
          +4
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          Gorbachev and Yeltsin need to stick an aspen stake for killing this topic both in military and civilian applications

          - You forgot to write "IMHO" ... as usual, however
          - about the "cola" you are right, I see
          - what about "for this topic"- it's you ... got excited
          - A hundred times already been discussed, including at VO. - - - - The ekranoplan is an undership-undership with a mass of both technical and ... ideological shortcomings that cannot be treated. That is, they are not treated at all.

          That's about as request
          1. Bloodsucker
            Bloodsucker 19 November 2016 09: 51
            +6
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            You forgot to write "IMHO" ... as usual, however

            Why, if it is said and written very clearly? For whom are these two still authority, if not for the frank traitors of the country?
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            and about "for this topic" - is it you ... got excited

            I got excited, no, time will tell.
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            a hundred times already been discussed, including at VO. - - - - The ekranoplan is an undership-undership with a mass of both technical and ... ideological shortcomings that cannot be treated. That is, they are not treated at all.

            So let's say the opinions of non-specialists in this matter, even if you write a thousand comments and articles here, nothing changes, the main claim put forward in these articles is uneconomical and not enough thrust-weight ratio, well, the engines of that time are compared, and not what is or will be in the future .
            The Lun missile carrier, traveling a couple of tens of meters above the water, or even lower, with the same Gauges, with the speed of an airplane and stealth, unlike a ship, has a much greater chance of getting into where it should be than a ship armed with them.
            Projects in the landing or civilian version have the right to exist.
            In general, we will see how it comes out in reality.
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null 19 November 2016 10: 17
              +3
              Quote: The Bloodthirster
              ... we will see how it comes out in reality ...

              - but it won’t come out
              - just once again raised the topic on VO, so that local "Pike vests" would create attendance fellow
              - ekranoplanes, especially fighting ones, are a dead end branch of development. Already a hundred times shown, proven.
              - but for "local use" - it will do, the flame is provided ... "Briand is the head" (c)

              laughing
              1. pticas
                pticas 29 November 2016 07: 57
                +3
                It turns out interestingly - MRK type "Bora" is a Thunderstorm of the Seas, and an ekranoplan with speeds 5 times higher and with the same weapons "byaka"? By the way, there are several times less people on board.
            2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 14: 41
              +3
              Quote: The Bloodthirster
              The Lun missile carrier marching a couple of tens of meters above the water, or even lower, with the same Gauges, with the speed of an airplane and invisibility, unlike a ship, has a much greater chance of entering where it should be than a ship armed with them

              Complete nonsense. Lun has never and never had an airplane speed, it is a much slower platform. Lun was interesting for his invulnerability at the time of his appearance - anti-ship missiles could not shoot him down, as they were too fast, and the air-to-air missile defense system - because it flies too low. But decades have passed since then, and now hitting a target over the sea is not a very difficult task for any fighter.
              It is "invisible" exactly the same as any missile-carrying aircraft that has gone to midget, only unlike the ekranoplan aircraft are much faster and cheaper.
              The cost of ekranoplanes scales all conceivable limits - he needs monstrous traction to exit the screen, because of which he has to hang a huge number of powerful engines (an airplane needs less), and operating costs ... a ship sometimes needs a dock to be repaired, ekranoplan always . He lives in a personal dock. An airplane needs an airfield, but here you can always rely on a civilian network, and most importantly, the Tu-160 from the center of Russia is capable of arriving at any maritime theater for several hours. WIG - no.
              Quote: The Bloodthirster
              Projects in the landing or civilian version have the right to exist.

              In civilian - no, a failed economy, in military - it is easier to land troops from ships or from airplanes.
              1. xtur
                xtur 3 January 2017 14: 19
                +1
                > But decades have passed since then, and now hitting a target over the sea is not a very difficult task for any fighter.

                yeah, and we can gracefully hush the issue of issuing a command to a fighter. But ES, as a platform for the carrier of RCC, under certain conditions, can threaten AHG without entering the zone of its defeat.

                > "Nezameten" it is exactly the same as any missile-carrying aircraft that went into the midget, only unlike the ekranoplan aircraft are much faster and cheaper.

                EP is comparable in price to RTOs but incomparably more mobile than them

                > The cost of ekranoplanes scales every conceivable limit

                EP was comparable in price to RTOs in Soviet times - it does not pull on the unbelievable off scale
            3. your1970
              your1970 22 November 2016 12: 42
              +1
              actually the idea died earlier ...
              in Soviet times, the treasury was also not unlimited, and the military thought with their head, which led to the idea being buried, otherwise the military In spite of for all kinds of catastrophes / deaths - the idea would be moved forward ...
              the dead idea was just ...

              An example of the death of Marshal Nedelin, is that after that they stopped flying into space ??? Yeah, right now ...
          2. Vlad.by
            Vlad.by 19 November 2016 12: 55
            +6
            It is not treated precisely in an airplane layout. The author immediately said this. Give arguments for the technical impossibility of the proposed projects. The financial side, for example, with the rejection of the costs of designing and manufacturing aircraft carriers does not seem at all so impossible. I don’t understand why almost all innovations appear in our country, but are being implemented outside of Russia? No prophet in his own country?
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 14: 43
              0
              Quote: Vlad.by
              It is not treated precisely in an airplane layout.

              In any is not treated.
              Quote: Vlad.by
              Give arguments for the technical impossibility of the proposed projects.

              There is none. It is possible, just irrational
              Quote: Vlad.by
              The financial side, for example, when refusing the costs of designing and manufacturing aircraft carriers does not seem at all so impossible

              On a scale of cost / effectiveness, an aircraft carrier tears an ekranoplan like a tazik warmer
              Quote: Vlad.by
              I don’t understand why almost all innovations appear in our country, but are being implemented outside of Russia?

              Give a list of military ekranoplanes of the world ...
              1. Vlad.by
                Vlad.by 19 November 2016 18: 34
                +4
                I will give you:
                - the locomotive of Polozov,
                Tank Porokhovschikova,
                -Airplane Zhukovsky,
                Zander's jet engine,
                - Popov radio transmitter,
                and further down the list - a helicopter, a heavy bomber, a laser, the Internet, ...
                Still or enough?
                And at first they wrote about everything - this is evil, it is dangerous, it is ineffective ...
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 23: 23
                  +3
                  Quote: Vlad.by
                  I will give you:

                  please ...
                  Quote: Vlad.by
                  Still or enough?

                  You make one, but a fundamental mistake. You cite inventions that ended up being useful. And you take an interest in how many inventions were useless. And when you find out that there were 100500 inventions of similar purpose on the same engine, which for various reasons (including economic inefficiency) have sunk into oblivion - then we will continue :)
                  1. Vlad.by
                    Vlad.by 20 November 2016 00: 53
                    +3
                    no it's not a mistake
                    I have given you a short list of those inventions that at the time of their appearance were also considered useless, harmful and even vicious, approximately as now the ekranoplan, but later, as you correctly put it, became "useful"
                    1. Cat man null
                      Cat man null 20 November 2016 01: 13
                      +1
                      Vladimir, hi

                      Although I’m not Andrei, and not even from Chelyabinsk, let me make one point (I’ll only talk about the possibility military application of "crane"):

                      - now it is not known whether the ekranoplan will be "useful" or not. So? So.
                      - the previous attempt to prove its "usefulness" (experiments with Lun and Eaglet) failed. So? So...
                      - at the moment, the military is not in demand (since with existing means of detection and destruction it is ... a target, nothing more). So? So.
                      - accordingly, the crane-plane has a chance to prove its "usefulness" .... but simply no request
                      - and since there are none, then invention is already considered useless what ,
                      - decided, signed, hemmed and laced.

                      Find, if you can, a "hole" in logic.
                      1. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 20 November 2016 14: 47
                        +3
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        Find, if you can, a "hole" in logic.

                        Well, let me try with your permission ...
                        The ekranoplan as a combat unit is a topic that has not been disclosed or studied at all, that is, AT ALL.
                        Perhaps those forum users who talk about the futility and deadlock of ekranoplanes are right, but ...
                        I recall the story of the appearance of the same tank, infantry fighting vehicles, and even the first bombers, when grenades and bombs were dropped manually, which made the efficiency and accuracy almost zero ... but further development showed that many types of weapons were the founders of entire classes of weapons.
                        Now, according to the article ... ekranoplanes and a dead-end branch are possible, which does not prevent all military-industrial countries from developing them now ... but I am inclined towards the prospectivity of ekranoplanes, but to the promisingness of SCREEN FLIGHTS. And the difference between the ekranoplan and the ekranolet is huge. The latter is also capable of flying, while it is also able to use the screen effect.
                        Therefore, I would not be so categorical. Given the development of electronic warfare systems, materials, and even tactics of use, I am more inclined to believe that it is ekranoleta that have the right to exist.
                    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 November 2016 01: 41
                      0
                      Quote: Vlad.by
                      no it's not a mistake

                      This is mistake. At best, and at worst, manipulation. Because your logic can be applied to absolutely any invention (for example, a sniper gun from recent news). Those. the fact that some useful inventions were not taken seriously by contemporaries does not in any way refute or confirm the usefulness of ekranoplanes.
                      I hope you understand that your statement can be applied to a number of studies by British scientists (for example, that the folds on the scrotum exactly repeat those on the human brain). It seems to be completely useless, but the Polozov steam train .... Porokhovschikov’s tank ...
                      By the way, do you even know that Porokhovshchikov’s invention is a dead end in mechanics and has never been used on tanks? :)))
                      1. Vlad.by
                        Vlad.by 20 November 2016 14: 08
                        +2
                        Sorry, but talking about the easy detection of ekranoplanes and their complete futility in military use is a sin. A means of delivering weapons to the sea at a speed of 300-400 km at an altitude of 50-100 m. - Admirals of all fleets dream about this. And the ekranoplan is a multi-loading platform, with such speed, with the ability to carry reconnaissance equipment in addition to weapons and even land on the surface. A gorgeous combination of ship, plane and warhead. What is its uselessness? Perhaps 20 thousand tons is overkill, but ... the corvette displacement and the speed of the aircraft, coupled with magnetometers and GAS and a search radar with an antenna lift height of 100 m and the possibility of instant impact and, very importantly, an instant rebound under cover of the main forces of the fleet or coastal grouping - an amazing combination for coastal defense at least. And if a pair of such devices are on the dock of an analogue of Mistral or Gren and goes in the order of the ocean squadron - there is no need to worry about PLO orders. And not only for PLO
          3. MaksoMelan
            MaksoMelan 19 November 2016 20: 17
            +1
            And why the hell to compare it with the ship? Meaning? And please list all these shortcomings?
          4. ALLxANDr
            ALLxANDr 23 November 2016 15: 46
            +1
            I agree with only one, the shortcomings of the ekranoplan were on the face in that technical implementation. This implementation has fundamental differences!
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 14: 28
          +1
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          The military thought otherwise.

          Which military? According to my information, the military would gladly send these devices to the scrap. Where is, in fact, the very place.
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          . Gorbachev with Yeltsin, it is necessary to stick an aspen stake for the murder of this subject both in military and civilian use.

          Listen, the ekranoplane is an assembly that managed to collect all the shortcomings of ships and planes, while losing their advantages.
      2. xtur
        xtur 3 January 2017 14: 12
        +1
        > Because they are disastrous. This development has no military significance, since significantly inferior in efficiency to missile-carrying aircraft

        and you are even ready to prove it with numbers in hand.

        So try to compile a table - 1 ton of payload / armament on a ship costs that amount of rubles / dollars, 1 ton of payload / armament on a submarine, and 1 ton on an ekranoplane.

        At the same time, we get such secrecy and mobility.

        EP should be compared on the one hand with airplanes, on the other with RTOs - this is precisely its niche in terms of GP and cost.
      3. 11 black
        11 black 12 March 2017 14: 19
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Because they are catastrophic. This development does not have military significance, because significantly inferior in effectiveness to missile-carrying aircraft

        Namely - Tu160М2 with Zircon or X-DB on board is much better suited for the role of a missile carrier, because:

        a) Can fly in super sound.
        b) It can fly over any surface and at extremely low altitudes.
        c) Flight range 14000 kilometers.
        d) Cruising speed 0,7М - at the level of fighters 4 generation and Ф35.
    2. da Vinci
      da Vinci 19 November 2016 09: 49
      0
      Very fair comments. If for BMZnes (transportation) - let the prokhorov or they invest Abramovich there (and their manager is Smerdyukov) - these are also such creatively advanced business men. Nefig budget cut! angry
      1. Grigory_78
        Grigory_78 18 January 2017 20: 56
        0
        Forget it. The oligarchs are impotent as creators. Their talent and destiny is a dribble of everything and everything. Proved by Prokhorov with his ё-mobile. Others did not even try.
    3. Vita vko
      Vita vko 19 November 2016 18: 09
      +2
      Quote: St. Propulsion
      not even a hint of economic performance

      For example, the ratio of payload mass to fuel consumption for an ekranoplan is an order of magnitude higher than the most economical aircraft. By this indicator, it is only inferior to marine merchant ships. Then there are some advantages, low altitude, high speed, profitability, etc. The only minus is the security problem, and even this is most likely due to the small operational experience and the low level of automation of control and safety systems.
      Therefore, it is not surprising that China is now the leader in the field of ekranoplan construction. http://www.abirus.ru/content/564/623/631/11303.ht
      ml
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 23: 26
        +2
        Quote: Vita VKO
        For example, the ratio of payload mass to fuel consumption for an ekranoplan is an order of magnitude higher than the most economical aircraft.

        Nonsense, I'm sorry. Yes, fuel consumption is lower because the screen mode. But taking into account the number and power of engines that are needed to display the device on the screen, their cost and the cost of their maintenance, the ekranoplan loses outright to the plane
        1. Vita vko
          Vita vko 19 November 2016 23: 50
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          , fuel consumption is lower because the screen mode. But given the number and power of engines,

          Power depends on the engines and is directly proportional to fuel consumption.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 November 2016 01: 44
            +1
            Quote: Vita VKO
            Power depends on the engines and is directly proportional to fuel consumption.

            Please, at least learn the basics of ekranoplanostroeniya. In order to raise an ekranoplane into the air, truly hellish power is needed, but after it was raised in the waters and reached the effect of the screen, the power requirements of the engines fall, not by an order of magnitude. Therefore, the power of the engines installed on the ekranoplan and its fuel consumption have no dependence - most of the time the super-powerful dviglo that lifts the ekranoplan into the air is busy with dead weight.
            1. Vita vko
              Vita vko 20 November 2016 07: 47
              +2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Please, at least learn the basics of ekranoplanostroeniya.

              even a non-specialist in aerodynamics understands that any movement and even more so a flight has several modes, at least three - speed gain, normal mode and braking. Why make a problem out of elementary laws of physics? For example, "and you know that to accelerate the plane you need huge power!" After all, they almost all take off in afterburner modes. However, everything flies fine and no one makes a problem out of it.
              http://www.ekranoplan-ru.narod.ru/C5.htm
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 November 2016 18: 33
                0
                Quote: Vita VKO
                For example "and you know that to accelerate the plane you need huge power!" After all, they almost all take off in afterburner modes. However, everything flies fine and no one makes a problem out of it.

                The only problem is that a huge number of boost engines make the ekranoplane arch-expensive and uneconomical in comparison with an airplane
                1. Grigory_78
                  Grigory_78 18 January 2017 21: 26
                  0
                  The question is in the distance. At short distances - of course, the fuel economy in flight will not sufficiently compensate for the fuel costs of separation from the surface and the maintenance of additional engines. However, with increasing distance, this is quite possible. This is both LNG and pipeline gas. When transporting gas, the point of equal cost of transportation in both ways is 2500 km. Closer - more profitable gas pipeline. Next is LNG. With ekranoletami question at the point of equality of costs with aircraft. No one counted. In addition, the use of retractable hydrofoils and an air cavity on the keel may well reduce the required power and, accordingly, the cost of separation from the surface. So the topic of ekranolet is not worked out and there is nothing to argue about before getting the actual data.
        2. xtur
          xtur 3 January 2017 14: 26
          +1
          > Nonsense, I'm sorry.

          you’re talking nonsense.
          From the point of view of physics, we are talking about the energy required to accelerate to a certain speed and to lift a certain mass to a certain height - both have a common EP with airplanes.
          1. Grigory_78
            Grigory_78 18 January 2017 21: 28
            0
            Read my comment just above. Perhaps some of my thoughts will seem interesting to you (I dare to hope)
            1. xtur
              xtur 19 January 2017 13: 22
              0
              Unfortunately, there are much more policies than technical arguments on the issue of EP. They say that the military does not have an interest in EP, but the other day I read the news about blowing in TsAGI EP with a GP (and not with a total weight) of 500 tons according to the scheme of a flying wing.
              And the EP with the 500 t GP is exactly twice as large as the Mriya GP
  4. tinibar
    tinibar 19 November 2016 07: 11
    +1
    Quote: novobranets
    "Caspian monsters" are back
    Nice name for a fantastic work yes . But no drama request , the theme of love is not disclosed love and patriotism soldier . And where is the plotted American villain spy bully ?

    Fantasy? Yes! Till...
    1. aba
      aba 19 November 2016 07: 30
      +8
      Given the current situation in Russia with its pro-Western liberal government, this "for now" can be viewed as an infinitely distant future.
  5. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 19 November 2016 07: 48
    +1
    Personally, my opinion. WIG - this is just an attempt to create an ideal. But ideals do not exist. The ship has its own advantages and disadvantages, the plane has its own. To create something that unites them and absorbs all the best will give birth to a new issue. So ekranoplans is not a path, but only one of their possible paths with their cones and victories. request
    Like the convertiplane, like the VTOL winked
  6. Wedmak
    Wedmak 19 November 2016 08: 05
    +7
    The main problem is the engines. But as always. Something I doubt that putting two nuclear installations on a monster in 16 thousand tons, flying under 300 nodes, and even at the surface, is a good idea. Airplanes beat at frightening intervals. Now imagine the size of a possible disaster for this ... miracle of technology. Hundreds of tons of irradiated materials fly into thousands of square kilometers. Chernobyl is resting.
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 19 November 2016 08: 34
      0
      Quote: Wedmak
      Airplanes beat at frightening intervals. Now imagine the size of a possible disaster for this ... miracle of technology.

      I immediately drew attention to this, but since considered this idea impracticable in the foreseeable future, did not discuss the topic. Now I see not the only one who noticed it. While discussing the merits and demerits of ekranoplanes, using the example of the "Eaglet", many noticed that they clearly tend to pitch up and stall. So imagine what will happen if there is (God forbid, of course) an accident. At such a speed, the ekranoplan will scatter to pieces, and no solid body will protect the reactors from destruction, and if this also happens in the coastal zone ... Tons of radioactive parts, plus the cooling liquid of the reactors, will be carried over a long distance by the current. It seems that until it is worked out reliable working model, talking about the drive on the nuclear test is premature. hi
      1. Grigory_78
        Grigory_78 18 January 2017 21: 36
        +2
        I personally personally would prefer that the idea of ​​nuclear power plants on aircraft be completely forgotten. In any accident, even only financial losses will block the benefits for decades to come. This is not counting the reputational losses, damage to the environment, the population of nearby areas, etc. etc.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 19 January 2017 04: 03
          +1
          Quote: Gregory_78
          I personally personally would prefer that the idea of ​​nuclear power plants on aircraft be completely forgotten.
          hi
    2. MaksoMelan
      MaksoMelan 19 November 2016 20: 23
      0
      First of all, why on thousand? Maskumium per kilometer and the ekranoplan probably will not crash like an airplane. How many accidents were the maximum were breaking the fesulage. What happens to airplanes with an ovary is not comparable. And there is no scattering of the remains into thousands. In addition, this aircraft carrier project is just a figment of the fantasy of a science fiction inspired by KM. And I washed away some of its building I do not see. Aerodor jump? And how much fuel he can have. Bullshit does not make sense at all. Better a normal aircraft carrier or better an aircraft carrier cruiser.
      1. Wedmak
        Wedmak 21 November 2016 11: 32
        +1
        First of all, why on thousand?

        That is, wind and currents carrying combustion products, a radioactive cooler, the fuel itself, you do not take into account.
        How many accidents were the maximum were breaking the fesulage.

        And what if this fault goes into the "hot" compartment and the reactor cracks from the impact? Can you guarantee that this will not happen? In general, fuel assemblies do not seem to like vibrations. Have you seen how it works?
  7. Pravodel
    Pravodel 19 November 2016 08: 06
    +6
    "I love our plans huge ..." Just like V. Mayakovsky. In the USSR, they used to build everything super large, gigantic, they did not count money. But Russia is not the USSR. To build something big, you must first work out something small, mundane. Determine operational resources, build up a base, prepare service, personnel, base structure, etc., and only then go to increase the size and capacity. Otherwise, catastrophes will occur, waste of resources and disbelief in the project itself will arise.
    Why should ekranoplanes be built initially? Initially, they should not be built as military, but as civilian vessels, and used for the needs of the national economy in the coastal sea and river zones of water communications. The use of ekranoplanes on inland water expanses will significantly increase cargo flow and passenger transportation, for example, in the regions of the north, Siberia. The use of ekranoplanes on the water arteries of Russia, for example, during transportation along the Volga, Kama, Amur, Yenisei can be an extremely profitable economic event.
    After mastering the ekranoplanes in the national economy, the time will surely come when the military will pay attention to the ekranoplanes and also want to have such a transport.
    1. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 19 November 2016 13: 09
      +5
      Iosif Vissarionovich didn’t run around on something mundane - he simply swung at industrialization, "a big, gigantic suber, he did not count money." As a result, he created exactly the gigantic, the most powerful state in the world. And if not for premature death and not "down to earth, little people" like Khrushchev and the other Gorbachevs, who were afraid of their own forces, where would the USSR be?
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 14: 44
      +1
      Quote: The Truth
      The use of ekranoplanes on the waterways of Russia, for example, during transportation along the Volga, Kama, Amur, Yenisei

      Outright lose the barge with a tug
      1. MaksoMelan
        MaksoMelan 19 November 2016 20: 27
        0
        On the rivers it will be crowded. But in the international waters of the ocean, and as suggested by the Ministry of Emergencies as a salvage transport for the universal maritime Ministry of Emergency Situations very much. For the tundra and steppe zones, the Far East is also suitable when the ice conditions do not allow barges to work.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 23: 32
          +3
          Quote: MaksoMelan
          But in the international waters of the ocean, and as suggested by the Ministry of Emergencies as a rescue vehicle

          Not good for anything. Because the ekranoplan needs to be somehow splashed down to save the crews, but the conditions for splashdown are the most demanding, like seaplanes, if not cooler. Even the average storm - the ekranoplan will not land anywhere.
          Quote: MaksoMelan
          Both for tundra and steppe zones

          the issue is resolved without these "dreams of reason", this is what I say, having worked in a seismic exploration company for 6 years.
          Quote: MaksoMelan
          and the Far East when ice conditions do not allow barges to work

          In extreme cases, there are hovercraft
          1. pticas
            pticas 29 November 2016 08: 05
            0
            Even the "Orlyonok" has takeoff and landing at 4-5 points of sea waves (at 150 tonnes of displacement)!
            You are not right!
    3. Grigory_78
      Grigory_78 18 January 2017 21: 47
      0
      I completely agree with the first part. I do not know about other rivers, but the Yenisei sometimes turns quite sharply. I think other rivers too. Plus the presence of tall trees and just buildings on the banks, the highest banks in such places - will greatly complicate the ability of the ekranoplan to "fit" into the turn. In addition, it will force you to coordinate the movement of ships with the movement of ekranoplanes. In general, it is better to start using ekranoplans in the sea and ocean zones. And even there will be problems. For inland water bodies, ekranoplanes are of little use in principle.
  8. guzik007
    guzik007 19 November 2016 08: 10
    +3
    Jellyfish of death?
    How many eggs does Mr. Yatskov offer to put in one basket?
    Where is the money?
    Well, this is not a question, if according to the new GOSTs it is possible to bake bread from mixed feeds for people, then you can dream up about cheap meat ...
  9. Saratoga833
    Saratoga833 19 November 2016 08: 41
    +12
    WIGs are a promising prospect. And there is no fantasy here. And it is possible and necessary to develop ekranoplans so that it does not work out as with cybernetics, "the corrupt girl of imperialism," when we, on the "command" of Khrushchev, lagged behind the West for 20 years and are still making up for this lag. Some also laughed at D-printers, they say it is a futile and expensive toy. And where are these oracles now? I understand that ekranoplans are now terra incognita in many respects, but the road will be mastered by the one walking! Otherwise, maybe we should be in the tail again!
    1. Mussasi
      Mussasi 19 November 2016 12: 13
      +1
      Yes, China is already working in this direction. And yes, in the USSR there were many ideas (computer, Internet, etc.) and that who embodied them in reality. The shortsightedness of the people who can generate these ideas into everyday life was the number one problem still under the kings. ...
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 14: 45
      +1
      Quote: Saratoga833
      Some also laughed at D-printers, saying that this is a futile and expensive toy

      Are you about 3D? So they continue to laugh ....
      1. Grigory_78
        Grigory_78 18 January 2017 21: 56
        0
        Above what? The number of applications of 3D printers is constantly growing.
  10. Free wind
    Free wind 19 November 2016 08: 48
    +2
    The most huge !!! YES!!! Unique !!!!! YES !!!!! ... But are they needed? But I don’t know ... Airplanes outperform ekranoplanes in all respects. In terms of efficiency, speed, and load capacity
    1. Grigory_78
      Grigory_78 18 January 2017 21: 57
      0
      Within the Caspian, of course.
  11. cannabis
    cannabis 19 November 2016 09: 21
    0
    I am impressed! The author managed to extract a whole bunch of formulas and terms from textbooks and to create a brilliant image from this heap. At first glance, it is impossible to guess the purpose of this supergiant, but it's not so scary! Complementing the image with a small mast, on which a smiling MERRY ROGER proudly and impudently flutters, you make a discovery - yes! Pirate ship! Sell ​​this idea to the owners of Baskervilia, they will come in handy from an old memory ...
  12. Cat man null
    Cat man null 19 November 2016 09: 52
    +7
    Article from the series "let there be ... discussion" laughing
    - chewed this topic a hundred times
    - ekranoplans - evil. Proven repeatedly stop
    - and yet, the topic pops up again. Fresh as a daisy ...

    The fight for site traffic, IMHO. All Thomas unbelievers - look for similar topics on the same VO and accusative read discussions. There, all the pros and cons have already been given, and the cons are much more significant than the pros.

    That's something like yes
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 14: 46
      0
      Quote: Cat Man Null
      The fight for site traffic, IMHO.

      And I seduced .... in vain. You're right.
      1. your1970
        your1970 22 November 2016 12: 50
        0
        somehow I came across two articles about the same thing, I just forgot and started digging the ground with my foot angry alas ....
  13. Ostup bender
    Ostup bender 19 November 2016 10: 47
    +2
    Yes, dream that chew glass wool ...
  14. atakan
    atakan 19 November 2016 11: 09
    0
    Where is at least one photo?
    there, everything will surely change inside, and all this means complete computerization and automation! As everyone already knows, the machine was wonderful, but dangerous for aerobatics, they crashed and therefore killed them.
    after all, it was a disposable weapon, albeit a lethal one.
  15. mik6403
    mik6403 19 November 2016 11: 28
    +4
    At the time of Zeppelins, aviation (plywood) was considered a dead-end branch of aeronautics, therefore research and development of ekranoplanes must be continued in cases of ensuring efficiency and increasing safety, the project has good prospects ...
  16. RASKAT
    RASKAT 19 November 2016 12: 43
    +1
    Quote: Nedopijack
    Will this superheavy one be able to walk with impunity or will he still need a warrant that can accompany him with a speed of 300 nodes?

    I do not want to upset, but here, too, not everything is so rosy. Firstly, such an ekranoplane has no protection against enemy aircraft, it flies much slower than airplanes to escape is not an option, it is clearly visible on the radar so that it cannot be protected from a rocket either. The idea is good, but the tactics of using such samples still need to be considered.
    1. Grigory_78
      Grigory_78 18 January 2017 22: 00
      0
      I think the ekranoplans will still have primarily civilian applications.
  17. engineer74
    engineer74 19 November 2016 12: 57
    +5
    We need to develop not ekranoplanes, but energy sources and technologies! When will there be a light powerful source of energy ("cold fusion" wassat ) and additive technologies for creating large structures, to mold one with the other will be a matter of expediency, and not extreme engineering!
    IMHO
  18. Streich
    Streich 19 November 2016 14: 49
    +1
    Yes, fantasy may be a bit much, but without fantasy there is nothing NEW, and not copied from another. In any case, it is much more promising than aircraft carriers - these floating targets. AUG is a group of ships representing a good target, and only if someone thinks that AUG has excellent protection, then this is not so. One 300 Kt rocket is enough to go through all the defense systems and that’s it. And how much is AUG and how much is 10 missiles with 300 Kt of nuclear charge.
    It is really necessary to make every effort for new types of fuel and means of delivery of weapons and people. As well as new means of combating any ammunition (air, space, land, sea and underwater) using others (not new - I at least do not yet know the new ones, the physical principles that were invented from the late 18th to the beginning of the 20th century, such and remained) physical principles.
    In the USSR, there was such a newsreel for children "I want to know everything", and so there was a motto - "The nut of knowledge is hard, but still we are not used to retreating and the newsreel will help to split it. I want to know everything."
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 November 2016 23: 35
      0
      Quote: Streich
      In any case, it is much more promising than aircraft carriers
      Brad.
      Quote: Streich
      One 300 Kt rocket is enough to go through all the defense systems and all

      Yeah. Only in the USSR it was planned to use 8 missiles with a 300 ct charge only in order to cut down the avionics avionics, but two Tu-22M3 regiments had to extinguish it ... with planned losses of up to 80% of the composition.
      Quote: Streich
      In the USSR for children there was such a newsreel "I want to know everything"

      Which you obviously didn’t watch ...
  19. Phosgene
    Phosgene 19 November 2016 15: 19
    0
    1) All these projects are distinguished by the complete absence of air defense and anti-aircraft defense systems, which means that they are not universal, which significantly reduces their combat effectiveness, especially given the appearance of a number of NATO states, including Turkey, of non-nuclear submarines with missile weapons, which allows for missile firing on targets, from underwater position, over long distances. 2) These projects are distinguished by high cost of construction and high cost of operation. 3) The accident rate of such an apparatus will always be higher than the accident rate of any surface ship of the usual scheme, with more severe consequences ..... Than to build this, it is better to build several universal 20385 rocket corvettes, or 11356 frigates, having bought turbines for them in China , because of the stupidity of the Kremlin, the Russian Federation still does not have its own turbines.
  20. Old26
    Old26 19 November 2016 15: 37
    +2
    Quote: The Bloodthirster
    The military thought differently. While living in Kaspiysk, this machine impresses, and only those who served it used it ... Gorbachev and Yeltsin had to stick an aspen stake for killing this subject both in military and civilian use.

    Oh really???? Did you think otherwise? And do not tell me why, if he is such a super-duper unsurpassed and the military thought otherwise, then after a year of trial operation, he left "for eternal rest"?
    Honestly, now he is a rather miserable sight. In streaks of rust on a desert slip - it stands as a monument to the era.
    The military just made their unequivocal conclusion: they do not need ekranoplans. Since even testing and operation in a fairly calm sea in this regard led to the loss of vehicles. And the operation in the Pacific and Arctic Arctic - they didn’t even think about it and did not offer it
    Of course, Gorbachev and Yeltsin need an aspen stake for what they did. But you don't need to hang all the dogs on them. Exploitation has shown that they are ineffective from an economic point of view. That the ship and the plane performed their functions better than the Lun and Eaglet. And he was not so dependent on the state of the weather and rough seas.
    Alekseev’s developments were ahead of their time, but were simply ineffective with the current development of technology. Maybe in the future the idea will be realized and giant ekranoplanes will appear, but not now. Even the fantasy offered above only fantasy remains.
    In reality, now only ekranoplanes of the "Burevestnik" type for 6-10 people will be in demand. But these are not only much smaller, but, in addition to the screen mode, they can also move in displacement, planing modes and be used as aircraft. These will be in demand, not "monsters"
    1. xtur
      xtur 3 January 2017 14: 52
      +1
      > The military just made their unequivocal conclusion: they do not need ekranoplanes.

      do not
      I read Kasatonov’s interview, in my opinion. He said that at one time the development of electronic components was in his area of ​​responsibility. And he talked about the failure of the solution exactly in that existing version, talked about overloading the design of electric drives by 50-100 tons, and he also said that if you make the development of electric drives using modern materials, then they can turn out to be a very competitive solution.

      I read another interview, but as usual now you will not find it, only some excerpts are visible from it:

      http://vz.ru/society/2015/7/29/758540.html
  21. witch
    witch 19 November 2016 15: 53
    0
    Quote: The Bloodthirster
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    You forgot to write "IMHO" ... as usual, however

    Why, if it is said and written very clearly? For whom are these two still authority, if not for the frank traitors of the country?
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    and about "for this topic" - is it you ... got excited

    I got excited, no, time will tell.
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    a hundred times already been discussed, including at VO. - - - - The ekranoplan is an undership-undership with a mass of both technical and ... ideological shortcomings that cannot be treated. That is, they are not treated at all.

    So let's say the opinions of non-specialists in this matter, even if you write a thousand comments and articles here, nothing changes, the main claim put forward in these articles is uneconomical and not enough thrust-weight ratio, well, the engines of that time are compared, and not what is or will be in the future .
    The Lun missile carrier, traveling a couple of tens of meters above the water, or even lower, with the same Gauges, with the speed of an airplane and stealth, unlike a ship, has a much greater chance of getting into where it should be than a ship armed with them.
    Projects in the landing or civilian version have the right to exist.
    In general, we will see how it comes out in reality.



    I agree that not one ship in the world has such speed. And air defense aircraft can shoot down. And this one moves low. Air defense is useless against it while a rocket flies towards it. God already knows where. And it's hard to keep track of it. Not one ship about submarines. torpedoes to him too side. there are prospects here, but we need to calculate and think everything over. but we have librarians who seem to write higher in comments. This country has been blown up by many developments. Europeans dug them and successfully use them (this was the case with axial piston pumps developed by the USSR the first Germans used successfully stealing it before the war). also with the ekranoplan. if the Europeans solve the problem so that he doesn’t ride like a frog (ours solved it) then they will have everything and our liberals always ruin everything.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 November 2016 01: 46
      0
      Quote: warlock
      and air defense planes can shoot down. and this moving low air defense is useless against him while the rocket is flying towards him he already knows where

      This is true for the 80s of the last millennium. And today, any fighter will remove it without any problems.
  22. Old26
    Old26 19 November 2016 16: 36
    +4
    Quote: warlock
    I agree that not one ship in the world has such speed. And air defense aircraft can shoot down. And this one moves low. Air defense is useless against it while a rocket flies towards it. God already knows where. And it's hard to keep track of it. Not one ship about submarines. torpedoes to him too side. there are prospects here, but we need to calculate and ponder everything. but we have librarians who seem to write higher in comments. This country was prosralized and many developments

    Well, of course, since the opinions of others do not coincide with yours, they are definitely liberals.
    You can find out, and where does the air defense against it? It then (air defense) has to do with it? What, AWACS aircraft have already been supporters of ekranoplanes canceled by directive? And the speed of anti-ship missiles limited to 400 km / h? The only thing that you have correctly written is that torpedoes side-winged ekranoplanes, like mines. And that’s all. All the rest that you wrote about the impossibility of hitting them is sorry.

    The AWACS aircraft has a detection range of about 400-600 km. Sees targets on the "underlying surface". Moreover, he will see such a target with such a wing not in the frontal projection (minimum) but from above, almost in the maximum projection. Taking into account that the patrol zone of AWACS aircraft is about 400 km from the center of the order, it will detect the ekranoplan at a distance of about 1000 km, that is, in two hours of the ekranoplan's course. Raising aircraft and hitting an ekranoplan - you don't need a lot of mind. Several missiles with IR seeker in the engines - and this is a huge fixed target. And any speed, even a subsonic anti-ship missile, is higher than that of an ekranoplan. And the firing range of anti-ship missiles at the ekranoplan is limited to the radio horizons of the ekranoplan radar. That is, the range is on the order of hundreds of kilometers. So, what is next? Will we consider other parameters?
    Let's count how much fuel the ekranoplane will eat at the maximum combat radius, and how many a bomber. And compare the radii of a bomber, its speed with the speed of an ekranoplan. Or how much landing will it take and at what range will the ekranoplan and KFOR deliver? The ekranoplan can still win only in closed TVDs such as the Caspian, where there is no fleet as such. But not more. It has more minuses than pluses
    1. sniper
      sniper 19 November 2016 17: 54
      +5
      Eternal theme: ABOUT THE DAMAGE OF SCREEN PLANS ... Pichalka ... Dear, why do you always compare with an airplane and with a ship, moreover by selective characteristics, but not by the totality of these? By your logic and in the auto industry, a complete mess. What for do you need a Gazelle if Belaz has a large payload? A motorcycle compared to a bus, so finally ...
      There are different types of vehicles and each performs its functions and no one argues with this. Why should ekranoplanes be faster than an airplane, a ship’s load and more economical than a bicycle? And besides, to protect yourself from aviation and from ground-based means and from unskilled interference by maintenance personnel? The emergence of a new class of technology, at a minimum, requires an understanding of how to use it. The new NEVER fits into the old norms. For example, the steamer has nowhere to place the rowers at all, this is no good ... Ekranoplan is a very interesting topic, but an attempt to replace it with familiar vehicles leads nowhere, it can seriously complement and improve the existing system, but replace it?
      So all these battles on the pages of the site are very far from reality ...
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 19 November 2016 18: 03
        0
        Quote: sniper
        Eternal theme: ABOUT THE HARM OF SCREEN PLANES ... Pichalka ...

        - for sure. Offhand:
        - seaworthiness, like a boat
        - maneuverability, like an elephant (adjusted for size - like a very large and awkward elephant)
        - where to base - it is not clear, requires a separate "marina" for itself, by and large
        - amazed (at the current level of development of means of destruction) ... yes, practically, to everything that is
        - the speed is lower than that of the plane. "Appetite" (gluttony, frankly) - the same or higher
        - rusts like ... a prostitute ... Aluminum + steel + sea water, yes in the air, yes at speed - for corrosion it is ...
        - ...

        Give at least a couple of specific considerations. (not common sighs and blah blah) why this monster (in terms of Monster - freak) RF should develop? There is a lot of extra money, KB is a lot of free? It seems not ...

        And? wink
        1. sniper
          sniper 19 November 2016 18: 25
          +3
          Roman ... To begin with, his seaworthiness is much higher than that of a boat, and besides, he has the ability to get away from any weather, unlike ships, due to speed. You can destroy any ship or plane, there are no immortals. As for the places of basing, then here you are again wrong. It can be based on any airfield or in any water area, however, like a seaplane, without making any claims to the depth of the reservoir, which is very important.
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          Aluminum + steel + seawater, yes in the air,

          And who prevents the use of other materials? Or is a ship in this combination not susceptible to electrochemical corrosion?
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          "Appetite" (gluttony, frankly) - the same or higher

          Why's that? The lifting force of the wing near the underlying surface is many times higher than in free flow. Or is there another physics for the ekranoplan?
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 19 November 2016 18: 37
            0
            Nicholas, hi

            Quote: sniper
            Let's begin with...

            - well, yes ... slightly thickened the paint, it would be necessary to dilute repeat

            Quote: sniper
            It can be based at any aerodrome or in any water area.

            - I said that there is no place for him in the port where the ships "live". Just categorically
            - the fact that he can be based at the airport - honestly, this is news for me. What, Lun knew how to sit on the airfield? IMHO did not know how ...

            Quote: sniper
            And who prevents the use of other materials? Or is a ship in this combination not susceptible to electrochemical corrosion?

            - apply - nothing bothers
            - the ship is susceptible, but to a lesser extent. Lumin already "does not like" the combination of air + sea water, and at speed (read - under variable loads), and even droplets on him, the poor, hurt him ... badly for him, in general.
            - that is, unambiguously - the material should be ... something like fiberglass, for example

            And finally - a quote from the discussion, from a person whom I ... tend to trust:

            Quote: Old26
            The AWACS aircraft has a detection range of about 400-600 km. Sees targets on the "underlying surface". Moreover, he will see such a target with such a wing not in the frontal projection (minimum) but from above, almost in the maximum projection. Taking into account that the patrol zone of AWACS aircraft is about 400 km from the center of the order, it will detect the ekranoplan at a distance of about 1000 km, that is, in two hours of the ekranoplan's course. Raising aircraft and hitting an ekranoplan - you don't need a lot of mind. Several missiles with IR seeker in the engines - and this is a huge fixed target. And any speed, even a subsonic anti-ship missile, is higher than that of an ekranoplan. And the firing range of anti-ship missiles at the ekranoplan is limited to the radio horizons of the ekranoplan radar. That is, the range is on the order of hundreds of kilometers. So, what is next? Will we consider other parameters?
            1. sniper
              sniper 19 November 2016 18: 49
              +3
              The ship Model, or the Caspian monster, was the model ... The task was to check the possibility of delivering missiles to the desired point. And the possibility of basing on airfields was not discussed. KM completed its task. Let's compare with any seaplane. Take-off speed is lower, and when the engines are under the wing, it is much lower, I forgot to make a civil ekranoplane brand too lazy to google, so there he went to the screen mode at several tens of km / h ... It's not about starting riveting KM in mass series, we are talking about the revival of the ekranoplan, as a class ...
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              . Taking into account the fact that the zone of patrol of AWACS aircraft is about 400 km from the center of the order, it will detect an ekranoplane at a distance of about 1000 km, that is, in two hours

              And of course he won’t notice the ship, he sees the ekranoplan’s current ... Yes, and the ship will come much faster ... In addition, the ekranoplan will be butting the enemy, what for does he launch rockets? Nadot come close ...
              1. Cat man null
                Cat man null 19 November 2016 18: 57
                +1
                Quote: sniper
                It’s not about starting to rivet KM in the mass series, it’s about reviving the ekranoplan as a class ...

                - if I ask the question like this, then I personally do not mind
                - True, for some reason, none of the decision-makers is interested in my opinion request

                Quote: sniper
                And of course he won’t notice the ship, he sees the ekranoplanes current..

                - good
                - during the Union, I remember, the aircraft carriers were going to drown the TU22M ... with the expense of 2 regiments for AUG, EMNIP
                - but seriously and strictly IMHO - the planes and submarines have chances against AUG. And no one else.

                And what the article says (250 x 300 meters, a pair of nuclear weapons, ...) is, I'm sorry, the spherical horse in a vacuum, and I personally do not cause much love No.
                1. sniper
                  sniper 19 November 2016 19: 05
                  +1
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  during the Union, I remember, aircraft carriers were going to drown

                  It’s problematic to drown them .. The balanced AUG is still a nut ... In addition, no one tried, the current was collected ...
          2. Petrol cutter
            Petrol cutter April 16 2017 14: 56
            +1
            And I probably agree with you. As for corrosion and other similar troubles, we stood, are building and will be building
            from aluminum and in serial and in large enough quantities. Specifically, the alloy AMG5, AMG51 was used for marine ships on a PC, on a VP and simply displacement. It seems that it was not noticed that right after a year they fell apart from rust ...
    2. xtur
      xtur 3 January 2017 14: 55
      +1
      > And the firing range of anti-ship missiles at the ekranoplan is limited to the radio horizons of the ekranoplan radar.

      why is it suddenly assumed for AOG a system of many components, and for an ES a variant of a completely autonomous means, without inclusion in the system, within which it can be effective
  23. TOR2
    TOR2 19 November 2016 17: 57
    0
    Therefore, it is proposed to step over the standard approaches to the construction of the fleet and create a universal maritime transport and combat system that can bring us to the forefront.

    If you step over the standard approaches, then this development will be of interest to the MO if you teach the ekranoplan to dive to shallow depths.
    Then this development will become really dangerous for the enemy. To build such an apparatus will require breakthrough technologies and ideas.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 19 November 2016 18: 17
      +2
      Quote: TOR2
      teach ekranoplan to dive to shallow depths

      - IMHO then it’s better like this:


      - and for the same money laughing
      1. Cat
        Cat 19 November 2016 20: 12
        +1
        I read the article and comments.
        I would venture to express my opinion.
        Nak military platform ekranoplans devices "dubious". Use at the level of landing and strike boats? Perhaps, but something is no longer the same level of technology.
        But the ekranoplan will probably be quite good as a rescue vehicle. Here "underplane" and "undership" can show themselves. The only way to raise seaworthiness above 3-5 points in case of splashdown?
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 19 November 2016 22: 47
        +1
        The water pressure will flatten this boat.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 19 November 2016 22: 49
          +2
          Quote: Vadim237
          Water pressure will flatten this boat

          - Vadim! I will not recognize you belay
          - it must be made of superpolycarbonate... or from ... I don’t remember what you mentioned so fashionable there? wink
  24. tchoni
    tchoni 19 November 2016 19: 24
    +2
    damn, what is happening with VO? Either some space-time shifters are invented here, or an ekranoplan aircraft carrier .... I'm in touch! Or is it dill sofa troops naughty filling up the site with spam?
  25. MaksoMelan
    MaksoMelan 19 November 2016 20: 13
    +1
    Regarding the runway, this is the idea of ​​a science-fiction designer impressed by an ekranoplan. And I doubt that it makes sense. For the rest, as a missile carrier and as transporters, I think it is simply imperative to promote and develop them. Maybe someday. Applications will find. And I’ll come up with modifications. Even just grabbing the Okenaski carrier market from airplanes is a really cool thing.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 19 November 2016 20: 20
      0
      Quote: MaksoMelan
      ... just grabbing the Oken shipping market from airplanes is a really cool thing ...

      - it is unlikely
      - one thing Black Sea ... puddle, sorry
      - completely different - the ocean ... take a look, well, where already there ... request

      1. ALLxANDr
        ALLxANDr 23 November 2016 17: 03
        +1
        Why so ... WIG there is no need to go out in any weather. He can calmly wait in the port, and also calmly then overtake those who went ahead)

        I liked the music) In a word - Nightwish !!!
  26. Old26
    Old26 19 November 2016 21: 29
    +5
    Quote: sniper
    Dear, why do you always compare with an airplane and with a ship, moreover in terms of selective characteristics, and not in the aggregate of these?

    How many times has this topic been - always
    there was a comparison of the totality of most characteristics.
    To be honest, I don't really want to repeat it 10 or 20 times. But if you want - let's compare "Lun" at least with the same TU-22M3
    So. Let's compare
    TU-22M3 - empty 68 t
    MOON - 243 tons

    Refueling
    TU - 53,5 tons
    MOON - about 110 tons

    Combat radius TU-22M3
    = with one X-22 at supersonic - 1500 km
    = with two X-22s on a dial-up - 2410 km
    = with three X-22s on the sound - 1500 km
    (we will not consider the first two options, only the 3rd option with 3 CR X-22)

    The combat radius of the MOON - approximately 800 km (with a maximum range of 2000 km). Given the fact that the combat radius is 2/5 of the maximum range, plus the time of barrage and the emergency fuel supply, we get 800 km

    Combat load
    TU-22M3 - 3 X-22 missiles
    MOON - 6 Mosquito missiles

    TTX missiles
    X-22
    = range 460-600 km
    = high-explosive cumulative warhead 9A22 - 960 kg, incl. 630 kg explosive or nuclear 350 kt (according to other sources 1 MT)

    MOSQUITO
    = range of 250 km
    = Warhead - penetrating, weighing 300 kg with 150 kg of explosives

    MOON cannot take off with a wave of 2 points. Flight no more than 5 points. Flight altitude 5 meters

    TU-22M3. takeoff restriction - only the wind. Everything else for the TU-22M3 does not matter. He can get around the storm front. The MOON, as you say, can only get out of the weather without completing the task. TU can only change range

    If all this is summed up, then
    = WIG can deliver to the target 800 km from the take-off point 6 missiles that fly another 250 km. That is, the ekranoplan is capable of hitting a target located at a distance of 1050 km with 6 missiles with a total TNT equivalent of 900 kg and returning back (of course, if the weather and enemy planes allow)

    = TU-22M3 is capable of delivering to the target 1500 km from the take-off point 3 missiles that fly another 600 km. That is, the TU-22M3 is capable of hitting a target located at a distance of 2100 km from the launch point with 3 missiles with a total TNT equivalent of 1990 kg and returning back and returning back.

    Quote: sniper
    Why should ekranoplanes be faster than an airplane, a ship’s load and more economical than a bicycle? And besides, to protect yourself from aviation and from ground-based means and from unskilled interference by maintenance personnel? .

    Leave unskilled personnel for the time being. WIGs do not have to be faster than airplanes and load-carrying ships if they are not positioned as military and something that no one has is better than everything that is.
    In this case, as a combat rocket carrier, the ekranoplan loses to the bomber by:
    - range
    - speeds
    - combat load
    - security and maneuverability in the end. It is less economical than a bomber. Why is it needed then.

    If we consider the ekranoplane and the ship, then the ekranoplane has a few more advantages than when compared with bombers. And when compared with a ship, it has only one plus: speed. The rest are cons. He loses the ship by:
    = range
    = seaworthiness
    = autonomy
    = in armament (does not have protective equipment and the number of missiles is limited)
    = if we are talking about the landing, then the number of troops and equipment.
    = Moreover, the landing cannot be landed on the unequipped coast, I mean that if there is no clean beach, then alas ...

    Quote: sniper
    The ship Model, or the Caspian monster, was the model ... The task was to check the possibility of delivering missiles to the desired point. And the possibility of basing on airfields was not discussed. KM completed its task.

    In addition to KM, there was also MOON. Missile. About him, see above.

    Quote: sniper
    As for the places of basing, then here you are again wrong. It can be based on any airfield or in any water area, however, like a seaplane, without making any claims to the depth of the reservoir, which is very important.

    The ekranoplan could not be based at any airfield. "Eagles" could be based on concrete, if it had a concrete slip into the water. Then he could get out of the water on the chassis. "Lun" himself could not get out of the water at all. He had a hydro-ski as a landing gear. There were no wheels. Therefore, both "Orlyonok" and "Lunya" needed their own airfields. Flying boats could take off not only from the water, but also from beetles. And sits on them. There were not so many seaplanes in the country. Only AN-2 EMNIP and something else small like YAK-12
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 November 2016 01: 48
      +1
      I wonder why there is still one plus comment. He put the second one, but he deserves much more ...
    2. xtur
      xtur 3 January 2017 15: 01
      0
      > If we consider the ekranoplan and the ship,

      So compare with the class of RTOs - the VI / GP are very close, too, like the range, and they are comparable in price too. Plus mobility
  27. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 19 November 2016 21: 58
    0
    Another inventor. Even Alekseev was not able to break through the serial production of these devices in the USSR, which turned out to be unnecessary neither to the Ministry of Industry, nor to the aircraft industry, but now it is completely impossible.
  28. Old26
    Old26 19 November 2016 23: 52
    +3
    Quote: Aviator_
    Another inventor. Even Alekseev was not able to break through the serial production of these devices in the USSR, which turned out to be unnecessary neither to the Ministry of Industry, nor to the aircraft industry, but now it is completely impossible.

    You are not entirely correct. EMNIP has already been tested and the production of ekranoplanes has begun. But these are not Eaglet or Lun class machines. These are small cars. Cargo and passenger. The number of passengers carried is somewhere on the order of 6-10 people or several hundred kilograms of cargo.
    These EMNIP machines are now purchased by Yakutia. The machine is universal. It can be used in the following modes.
    1. In displacement mode
    2. In planing mode
    3. In the snowmobile mode (earlier, when I mentioned it, the snowmobile mode forgot)
    4. In the mode of ekranoplan
    5. In airplane mode

    It is the versatility of movement, small size and relatively low speed that make this device popular ...
    And those ekranoplanes Alekseev really turned out to be nobody needs
  29. legkostup
    legkostup 20 November 2016 10: 17
    0
    Just nonsense.
  30. JD1979
    JD1979 20 November 2016 11: 40
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Saratoga833
    Some also laughed at D-printers, saying that this is a futile and expensive toy

    Are you about 3D? So they continue to laugh ....


    Yeah, their stomachs were ripped open. Especially the "stupid" Americans, who set up a seal directly on their bases so as not to carry any trifles for repairs from overseas. money has nowhere to go. Or do they still know how to count?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 November 2016 18: 30
      +1
      Quote: JD1979
      Especially the "stupid" Americans, who set up a seal directly on their bases so as not to carry any trifles for repairs from overseas. money has nowhere to go.

      They didn’t fix anything. Ie, of course, you can print a lot on 3D. But there is no practical sense in this - this very "trifle" about which you write is 3 times cheaper to bring from the USA.
      Therefore, all the news about 3D is a normal demonstration of capabilities, and not mass production. The cost of 3D products is such that it’s not too expensive to print products, but even forms for products (in which you can then cast products).
      In general, it is very expensive and a specific technology with extremely limited use.
  31. Old26
    Old26 20 November 2016 13: 08
    +2
    Quote: JD1979
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Saratoga833
    Some also laughed at D-printers, saying that this is a futile and expensive toy

    Are you about 3D? So they continue to laugh ....


    Yeah, their stomachs were ripped open. Especially the "stupid" Americans, who set up a seal directly on their bases so as not to carry any trifles for repairs from overseas. money has nowhere to go. Or do they still know how to count?

    You know, Dmitry, everything should be in moderation. In our country, as something appears or is declassified, the media and the Internet immediately make another "wunderwaffe" out of it. This, believe me, applies to everything. The "Caliber" with "non-export range" "appeared" in the media - they immediately made another super-duper wunderwaffe out of it. Immediately they began to draw the radius of defeat. The ecstasy was off scale and off scale. Although it is enough to think a little to understand that this is not such a wunderwaffe. But all "against" are swept aside by the bulk of the commentators. A stuffing called "Status-6" appeared - another surge of ecstasy. The question was not even asked, but what for her range of 10000 km. Then there was "Sarmat", then 4202. The last explosion of ecstasy - as one commentator wrote, commenting on "a powerful increase in defense capacity" when it came to restoring 2 launchers of old anti-ship missiles in Crimea. Here and in this thread. Everyone is blamed: Gorabchev, Yeltsin, the devil, the devil. The military is accused of short-sightedness not that they "did not understand" the full power of the ekranoplanes. And in my opinion, it was the military who understood that they did not need this. As a technology demonstrator, yes, but no more. Smaller ones, which I wrote about above, may be in demand, but not "Caspian monsters".
    So with 3D printers. For some reason, they may be needed, but rumor attributed to them almost superpowers. But if, for example, you need some part that can withstand extreme loads, then it is unlikely that you can get it on this printer. That is, an outwardly similar detail can be obtained, but it is unlikely to have the same properties.
    So everything should be in moderation. And sometimes such opportunities about these superprinters cause laughter, tk. they are immediately offered to be used "in all holes with a plug"
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 20 November 2016 23: 49
      +3
      Wing is a flying boat with a trimmed wing, optimized for long-term low-altitude flight with a screen effect.
      have something against flying boats, as well as high-speed hovercraft or hydrofoils?

      Yes, in general, the entire USSR was not needed for a Mercedes Pasha.
  32. witch
    witch 21 November 2016 16: 58
    0
    Quote: Old26
    Quote: warlock
    I agree that not one ship in the world has such speed. And air defense aircraft can shoot down. And this one moves low. Air defense is useless against it while a rocket flies towards it. God already knows where. And it's hard to keep track of it. Not one ship about submarines. torpedoes to him too side. there are prospects here, but we need to calculate and ponder everything. but we have librarians who seem to write higher in comments. This country was prosralized and many developments

    Well, of course, since the opinions of others do not coincide with yours, they are definitely liberals.
    You can find out, and where does the air defense against it? It then (air defense) has to do with it? What, AWACS aircraft have already been supporters of ekranoplanes canceled by directive? And the speed of anti-ship missiles limited to 400 km / h? The only thing that you have correctly written is that torpedoes side-winged ekranoplanes, like mines. And that’s all. All the rest that you wrote about the impossibility of hitting them is sorry.

    The AWACS aircraft has a detection range of about 400-600 km. Sees targets on the "underlying surface". Moreover, he will see such a target with such a wing not in the frontal projection (minimum) but from above, almost in the maximum projection. Taking into account that the patrol zone of AWACS aircraft is about 400 km from the center of the order, it will detect the ekranoplan at a distance of about 1000 km, that is, in two hours of the ekranoplan's course. Raising aircraft and hitting an ekranoplan - you don't need a lot of mind. Several missiles with IR seeker in the engines - and this is a huge fixed target. And any speed, even a subsonic anti-ship missile, is higher than that of an ekranoplan. And the firing range of anti-ship missiles at the ekranoplan is limited to the radio horizons of the ekranoplan radar. That is, the range is on the order of hundreds of kilometers. So, what is next? Will we consider other parameters?
    Let's count how much fuel the ekranoplane will eat at the maximum combat radius, and how many a bomber. And compare the radii of a bomber, its speed with the speed of an ekranoplan. Or how much landing will it take and at what range will the ekranoplan and KFOR deliver? The ekranoplan can still win only in closed TVDs such as the Caspian, where there is no fleet as such. But not more. It has more minuses than pluses


    but look at what altitude the air defense is effective. radars and the like. what about the fighter and you come up to it first there will be air defense too, I think. and protection from them. It's just not for me to decide what and how it will be installed on it. There is time for this technique and everything will be put in its place. They still have to turn back. But aircraft carriers this past century is for sure. Your arguments are not convincing to me and as for survivability, look at the documentary about the Caspian monster, everything is clearly described there. But about that time and those materials and technologies are different now THER materyalami opportunities elektronika.drugie tehnologii.shum around WIG not started today, and most of all to this miracle byt.Shaygu at the right time on your meste.tak what they say
    we will see)).

    and my opinion is my opinion. Yours is yours. But it’s not for you not to decide, fortunately, probably what should not be what.
  33. witch
    witch 21 November 2016 17: 10
    +1
    Quote: sniper
    Eternal theme: ABOUT THE DAMAGE OF SCREEN PLANS ... Pichalka ... Dear, why do you always compare with an airplane and with a ship, moreover by selective characteristics, but not by the totality of these? By your logic and in the auto industry, a complete mess. What for do you need a Gazelle if Belaz has a large payload? A motorcycle compared to a bus, so finally ...
    There are different types of vehicles and each performs its functions and no one argues with this. Why should ekranoplanes be faster than an airplane, a ship’s load and more economical than a bicycle? And besides, to protect yourself from aviation and from ground-based means and from unskilled interference by maintenance personnel? The emergence of a new class of technology, at a minimum, requires an understanding of how to use it. The new NEVER fits into the old norms. For example, the steamer has nowhere to place the rowers at all, this is no good ... Ekranoplan is a very interesting topic, but an attempt to replace it with familiar vehicles leads nowhere, it can seriously complement and improve the existing system, but replace it?
    So all these battles on the pages of the site are very far from reality ...


    and with you I probably agree correctly said plus you
  34. witch
    witch 21 November 2016 17: 15
    +1
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    Nicholas, hi

    Quote: sniper
    Let's begin with...

    - well, yes ... slightly thickened the paint, it would be necessary to dilute repeat

    Quote: sniper
    It can be based at any aerodrome or in any water area.

    - I said that there is no place for him in the port where the ships "live". Just categorically
    - the fact that he can be based at the airport - honestly, this is news for me. What, Lun knew how to sit on the airfield? IMHO did not know how ...

    Quote: sniper
    And who prevents the use of other materials? Or is a ship in this combination not susceptible to electrochemical corrosion?

    - apply - nothing bothers
    - the ship is susceptible, but to a lesser extent. Lumin already "does not like" the combination of air + sea water, and at speed (read - under variable loads), and even droplets on him, the poor, hurt him ... badly for him, in general.
    - that is, unambiguously - the material should be ... something like fiberglass, for example

    And finally - a quote from the discussion, from a person whom I ... tend to trust:

    Quote: Old26
    The AWACS aircraft has a detection range of about 400-600 km. Sees targets on the "underlying surface". Moreover, he will see such a target with such a wing not in the frontal projection (minimum) but from above, almost in the maximum projection. Taking into account that the patrol zone of AWACS aircraft is about 400 km from the center of the order, it will detect the ekranoplan at a distance of about 1000 km, that is, in two hours of the ekranoplan's course. Raising aircraft and hitting an ekranoplan - you don't need a lot of mind. Several missiles with IR seeker in the engines - and this is a huge fixed target. And any speed, even a subsonic anti-ship missile, is higher than that of an ekranoplan. And the firing range of anti-ship missiles at the ekranoplan is limited to the radio horizons of the ekranoplan radar. That is, the range is on the order of hundreds of kilometers. So, what is next? Will we consider other parameters?

    but I don’t trust this old libertine at all)))
  35. witch
    witch 21 November 2016 17: 22
    +1
    Quote: Cat Man Null
    Quote: sniper
    It’s not about starting to rivet KM in the mass series, it’s about reviving the ekranoplan as a class ...

    - if I ask the question like this, then I personally do not mind
    - True, for some reason, none of the decision-makers is interested in my opinion request

    Quote: sniper
    And of course he won’t notice the ship, he sees the ekranoplanes current..

    - good
    - during the Union, I remember, the aircraft carriers were going to drown the TU22M ... with the expense of 2 regiments for AUG, EMNIP
    - but seriously and strictly IMHO - the planes and submarines have chances against AUG. And no one else.

    And what the article says (250 x 300 meters, a pair of nuclear weapons, ...) is, I'm sorry, the spherical horse in a vacuum, and I personally do not cause much love No.


    so what the article says is understandable, it's just the author’s thoughts. he’s not whoever speaks simply as a class. there are clever scientists who decide how and what to shove into him. it is more than a simple ship. and the fact that you are not vulnerable aug is in vain. not in vain did the Mediterranean carrier roll off when the Moscow was there for the first time. don’t google the news for so long.
  36. Old26
    Old26 21 November 2016 22: 55
    +1
    Quote: warlock
    and look at what height is effective air defense. radars and the like

    And you can find out, where are the air defense radars? Have you canceled AWACS aircraft? And they have a detection range of about 600 km.

    Quote: warlock
    and about the fighter, and you come up to it first there, too, I think there will be air defense. and protection from them.

    Is that the fantasy ekranoplan described in the article? With 2 nuclear reactors on board, aircraft and missile defense facilities ?? Oh well. These are real projects, not fiction. And on the real "Luna" there were only TWO machine guns from the air defense. No air defense even in the form of MANPADS

    Quote: warlock
    and there is a prospect in this technique and time will put everything in its place. they still have to return. but aircraft carriers this past century is for sure. your arguments are not convincing to me and as for survivability, look at the documentary about the Caspian monster everything is clearly described there

    And I'm not going to convince you of anything. If you are not able to accept real arguments - these are your problems. As for the documentary .... I saw both the documentary and himself on Dagdiesel. And he talked with people. But I do not impose my opinion on anyone. Consider what you want. It's your right.
    1. root
      root 24 November 2016 05: 49
      0
      May I stand up for your opponent :). You approach criticism incorrectly. Here the main question is why we need such a large mass for the aircraft. Let's go from the opposite ... If we distract from this issue (that is, we have already decided a priori, for example, we need 5000 tons). 1. The classic aviation layout is no longer suitable (the wing becomes awkwardly large, sturdy in horror), that is, you need a layout such as a supporting body with trellised poly-wings (or a flying wing). 2. Chassis problems (large weight and dimensions - to withstand a landing strike and will not fall apart, an objection similar to the argument about starting engines unused when flying on the screen) and a runway (a problem with a long strip and its bearing capacity) 3. Remote control - atomic or on chemical fuel? And it turns out, if we consider all the factors in the complex, then an aircraft of such mass is an atomic seaplane or ekranoplan. Something else is not visible. But the objection about a large target, a ship of a similar mass has its own air defense, but why can't it have an aircraft? So if they find the need for a large carrying capacity, then only take off from the water, fly on the screen or in airplane mode (and here is more likely a variant of a nuclear power plant). And in general, a nuclear engine painfully already looks attractive in terms of characteristics. So dreaming is not bad :)
  37. ALLxANDr
    ALLxANDr 23 November 2016 16: 57
    +2
    The author is looking forward! He is 100% right! If we think stereotyped, we will not be able to lead. Templates for others are actually made by leaders)) From the current situation in our huge country, we can only catch up and copy. But even if they caught up ?! Well, for example, did we catch up with the Americans in terms of technology and the number of ships? I do not mean by the quantity of NATO, here the stump is clear, we will lag behind. What's next?! NATO has a flock of jackal ideology! If you are smaller or weaker - they will attack you! If you do not join the pack, then you are against the pack! What the hell neutrality !!! You will not be touched until it is your turn! And now, in fact, this very logical question of what to do and what to do ?! The answer is to create a new reality !!! Where we are strong and they will catch up with us. Our country leads the way in nuclear power plants, and experience with metal-liquid cooling will be especially useful. This will solve the problem with a large gluttony of fuel, which used to be an edge. And just recently, we have finally created a prototype of a detonation engine, which also opens up many prospects! Including power-economy !!! We can create very large cars - gigantomania)) And this is not fixable))) Someone wrote that ekranoplans have all the shortcomings of all types of transporters. This statement is true as long as we look at that old scheme of building ekranoplanes. But this is a fundamentally new scheme, which is clear-red will be improved in the direction of the ideal-suitable! This is another product! With this product will be a completely different approach to aircraft carriers. There will be a completely different accompanying order, fundamentally different from today's standard. Submarines will not be afraid of such products. Captains of warships will watch after the envy of longing for the aircraft carrier group rapidly leaving the horizon. They are already hopelessly late for the theater of war ... Try to guess where this group will be the next morning! It will be a nightmare for strategists of the old concept of fighting! This aircraft carrier will match Suvorov’s tactics)))) Fast and unpredictable!
  38. PDS
    PDS 30 November 2016 11: 24
    +2
    The use of ekranoplanes is a controversial topic. Type:
    "Now, according to the article ... maybe ekranoplanes and a dead-end branch, which does not prevent all military-industrial countries to develop them now ... but I am inclined towards the prospects not of ekranoplanes, but to the prospects of screen flights. And the difference between an ekranoplan and an ekranoplane is huge. The latter is also capable of flying. while also able to use the screen effect. "
    If we consider the Eaglet, still fresh in memory, then he was just an aerial vehicle. Could "blow up" up to 3000m. As for the engines, again using Orlyonok's example: a power plant of 3 engines (we don't count the APU), 2 of which are purely for takeoff. According to the instructions to the crew in flight, they had to be switched to idle mode, in fact, they were simply turned off in flight. Flew (ekranoplanal) on one. It was based on concrete, but takeoff only from water, by the way, the larger the wave, the earlier it took off. Like Lun, he had a "hydro ski" that helped to break away ... So that's what I mean: Eaglet, which is now standing on the Moscow River during the service, participated in exercises. Used as an airborne assault. With access to the shore and movement on the ground. This, of course, suggests that the military does not need it. The last time it was lifted into the air was in 94 (I may be wrong) in order to show it to the Americans. Talking about "displacement" - to put it mildly, it hurts the ear. The takeoff weight is correct after all. Comparison with an aircraft such as range, radius, missile range is incorrect. Let's put newer engines on the ekranoplan, the armament is a little more modern, but now we can compare it with the TU-22M (2,3), with the Tu-160 ... :)
  39. UFO
    UFO 30 November 2016 17: 40
    0
    More promising is a monster airship in the form of a wing with thrusters of an oscillatory type, with a thrust of more than 150 kg / hp, which is an order of magnitude more than a helicopter. See for example the Sorokodum drone on his site vortexosc com
    http://www.vortexosc.com/images/pdf/UAVwing.pdf
  40. 9lvariag
    9lvariag 10 December 2016 08: 14
    +3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Vlad.by
    no it's not a mistake

    This is mistake. At best, and at worst, manipulation. Because your logic can be applied to absolutely any invention (for example, a sniper gun from recent news). Those. the fact that some useful inventions were not taken seriously by contemporaries does not in any way refute or confirm the usefulness of ekranoplanes.
    I hope you understand that your statement can be applied to a number of studies by British scientists (for example, that the folds on the scrotum exactly repeat those on the human brain). It seems to be completely useless, but the Polozov steam train .... Porokhovschikov’s tank ...
    By the way, do you even know that Porokhovshchikov’s invention is a dead end in mechanics and has never been used on tanks? :)))

    Andrey, do not be so categorical in a place with your re-singing. Otherwise, the error is you! :)
    Everyone who yells about "dead-end" forget about the main reason for the construction of ekranoplanes. The mistake was that the "ship commander" was a naval one, and the "crew commander" was a pilot. Further on the list: which Soviet ram from the design bureau came up with the idea of ​​using ship parts (units) in the design of an aircraft? To explain to you: during the crash, the "KM" of the naval was killed by a ship-type telephone set - this is 3kg. "lumini"! And how much did the Lunya navigation complex weigh - two tons, I think? What an impassable uchkuduk "spanked" him there.
    Secondly: you just make fun of, if there were ekranoplanes in the composition of the rescued fleet, it would be possible to quickly rescue people from the "Komsomoltsa." And your airplanes and anti-ship missiles, just as quickly go astray over the sea. And AUG is also not free and is also vulnerable. "Kitty Hawk" at KTOF remember?
  41. Valery Bogin
    Valery Bogin 10 December 2016 18: 44
    0
    Uncle clearly dreaming ...... am am
  42. 9lvariag
    9lvariag 11 December 2016 09: 11
    +1
    You are right.
    Quote: Valery Goddesses
    Uncle clearly dreaming ...... am am

    TA-dah! For a tip there was such a project of "shock and so-called two hundred mile US fleet", this is about them, just about them. About VTOL aircraft, hydrofoils and shock ekranoplanes. But the trouble, even for the United States, this was not feasible. The hydrofoils rested on 54 knots at maximum speed, and then not aircraft carriers and cruisers. Airborne and rocket VTOL aircraft turned out to be ships of the near zone and with a lot of disadvantages (certainly not ocean ships). There was such a WIG project - well, where does it transport the Abrams? This is from relatives to fools to grow up. portals that yell about the need for the country 4-5 AUG. But where are they going to take so many pilots and l / s? And what the hell is it? The only theater of operations where the Russian Federation can use the AUG is KTOF! And then with reservations. And what for in the Arctic? I have not seen a single icebreaking nuclear aircraft carrier with a heated deck and other pribluda. not seen in any of the NATO countries.
  43. Kudrevkn
    Kudrevkn 3 July 2017 19: 52
    0
    Good day to all, dear gentlemen, Experts! Yes, and probably that's right. You wrote here: "The author is a dreamer !?" Almost for the vast majority, at one time Zeolkovsky or Zhukovsky also looked like "eccentric" "dreamers", however ... You know, 30 years ago, my graduation project was SKR pr. 20630 (only instead of "calibers" I put Soviet "PKR" harpoons Uranus. "Who were still in the project?). But my classmate Emin Hajiyev defended the project of an ekranoplan - a “Quaker” (capable of moving in three environments - under and above and above the water) on the basis of the “Eaglet”? And you know, he produced at the state. commission then a very strong impression! By the way, with regards to the stealth architecture of my project, this is also a sketch. drawn by Emin? He was a very talented young man! And you are "Author - a dreamer" ?! Maybe "YES", or maybe ....? Time will tell!!!!
  44. Max golovanovo
    Max golovanovo 31 July 2017 12: 53
    0
    No need for airplanes, load more fuel assemblies, reactors for fast and the furious and forward. Ahnet - it will not seem a little. The crew is ejected in square X.
  45. Sergeant71
    Sergeant71 23 October 2017 08: 14
    +2
    The time has come for drop dead stories ..... There is no money for much more mundane and cheaper projects, but in the article the scope is simply Khlestakov’s.