Ivan the Terrible: two myths, two stories and two historiographies

163
Perhaps TOPWAR readers will remember an article about Prince Alexander Nevsky, which dealt with those myths that were created by Soviet propaganda around his name, including even the editorial from Pravda on April 5 from 1942. Now, the debate goes around the personality of Grozny, and, in my opinion, this is the strangest thing, Karamzin, who treated him very carefully, is accused, and other historians are in bulk, although again Klyuchevsky wrote about him in no way in a derogatory tone . And this is despite the fact that the Web today has texts of chronicles, Klyuchevsky’s lectures, all the writings of Karamzin, and the letters of Ivan the Terrible to Queen Elizabeth of England - everything is there. But there are people who are clearly obsessed with the “threat of the West of Russia”, and very similar to Lieutenant Rzhevsky from the “Hussar Ballad”: “This man also did not read the novel! Be sure to read it, Sharman! ”Meanwhile, the personality of Ivan the Terrible causes controversy in society only because it is simply too lazy for this society to study all this. In Kansk, for example, a certain enthusiast even erected his own monument to him in the form of a… bloody stake. Some say that a monument is needed, others do not. How to be and why is everything so ... "too painful"?

Ivan the Terrible: two myths, two stories and two historiographies

"King, just king!"



Because this time, too, not just opinions, two myths collided, with which it was painful to part with both. What are these myths?

There are only two of them, protective and liberal, but both have a long-standing history and therefore they have already gained the strength of tradition, and it is very difficult to fight the traditions. By the way, another Soviet historian like Mikhail Pokrovsky warned against confusing history with politics, and this is precisely what the fans of both these myths sin. And it was enough just to “light up the flames”, and the monument to Ivan the Terrible in Orel became such a fuse, as the swords immediately “crossed,” that is, world outlook. Well, the reasons for the difference of worldviews in one single state will be discussed at the end. But for now let's outline the essence of each of these two myths. Let's start with the liberal, because for what, if not for freedom, people fought on the barricades in the years of the French Revolution and in 1905, and this myth denied not only the merits of Grozny as a king. He considered our statehood to be tyrannical, the sufferings of the people were immeasurable, and he considered the sample the “democratic West”, where “even the streets are washed in the mornings with liquid soap”, as one newspaper wrote in my blessed Penza bitterly, while in Moscow newspapers Readers were reminded constantly. Why in the early twentieth century there were washed the pavements in the mornings, and with soap and water, the story will also be closer to the end, and now we will look at the generalized conclusions from this myth: Ivan the Terrible ghoul, what to look for, maniac, despot, libertine, bloody madman, in short, so only scare children.


Ivory throne. Armory chamber of the Kremlin.

The other is not much different from him, since it represents his anagram. This is a protective myth, the essence of which is that Ivan the Terrible is a vessel of all conceivable and inconceivable virtues, which was infinitely wise, shrewd, did not do anything bad and could not be done a priori, the king, who won all, gave all his sisters earrings was "a knight without fear and without reproach." I can not believe in that myth, nor in this, because such people simply do not happen. But ... both myths firmly occupied the mass consciousness, and long overshadowed the real Ivan the Terrible. Accordingly, the discussion about the monument is conducted from the standpoint of these two myths.


Monument to the settler in Penza.

But before talking about the monument to him, I would like to say a little about our Penza monument - “The Monument to the First-Setter”, which in our city is simply called “a man with a horse.” They put it back in the Soviet era and how they put it in a whole saga worthy of a separate story. But it is not about this now, but about “what is the monument for him”. And the monument is to those settlers that, by decree of Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich Tishayshiy, I mean Romanov, in 1663, they came here along with reiters and Cossacks and "taught the city to build." Today it is a pleasant meeting place, meeting, it's nice to just stand and look into the distance, and no one thinks about why this peasant with the plow standing near the arable horse, even the peak with the pennant, although this monument itself peaks and adorns. In my opinion, the monument would only have won if there were three “first settlers”: the reiter on horseback, since it was the reiters who were sent to guard the newly built fortress. And if without a pike in any way, then let it be a Cossack. Then a peasant with food, since the royal government gave the first settlers a food and an unlimited amount of money to acquire and ... a woman, as without her. After all, there was a decree after the Copper Riot 1662 of the year to send women caught in the copper tatbe to distant "cities", and Penza in the 1663 was much more distant. But the three figures are ... a lot of money. That is why the pioneer we have one.

So if a person is related to a place, then why not be a monument to her exactly there ?! And after all, it was Grozny who indicated to build the Eagle, even if later the modern city grew out of another fortress. But the fact is a fact. And there is a person responsible for him and if so, then why not show off on the monument? True, historically it would have been more appropriate for Tsar Mikhail Fedorovich, since the present-day Eagle is his creation, but ... if not Mikhail, then at least Ivan the Terrible, why not.

On the other hand, from the point of view of Russian history and statehood, a monument to Grozny would be much more appropriate to place in Kazan. Indeed, in 1552, he personally participated in the campaign of the Russian troops and risked his life during the storming of Kazan, and as a result, tens of thousands of Russian monks were freed from slavery. This merit is clearly related to the personality of the king. He was on the march, took part in making military decisions, put his life on the line, as there was a moment when he could die there. Therefore, it would be more correct to bet there. But ... under the Soviets, we were tolerant of the Ukrainian Banderovites and “forest brothers”, we are also tolerant of today's residents of Kazan, since such a monument may also not like them and ... why do we need this “there”? However, besides Kazan, Ivan IV also took Polotsk and many other cities of Livonia, ended the Livonian Order, that is, he conducted a very active foreign policy immediately in the east and in the west.


The wedding of the kingdom of Ivan the Terrible. Facial chronicle of the book. 20 page 283.

However, if we talk about the increments to the “Russian land”, then the monument should be erected to his grandfather, Ivan III, who created the Russian state, as such, by the way, many people called it “terrible” at that time. So it is very possible that we will wait for this monument, and not just anywhere, but in the very capital city of Moscow.

Now, from the military affairs of the young king turn to his educational activities. It was under Ivan IV that the typography in Russia was started, and even the state printing house was created. By the way, even in Kazan, the equipment of a printing house simply could not do without a tsar's decree, so here his role was only positive.

They also built many towns and fortresses with a lot of guns, and not just a lot, but so many that travelers from other lands wrote that they had never seen so much anywhere (See for more: V. Shpakovsky "Artillery extravagances" // "Science and technology" №6 (109), 2015,).

But “did he have a hat for Senka,” didn’t he throw at too much? After all, from the time of Khan Tokhtamysh, the enemies did not take Moscow, but here they took it, and even burned it, but the “loyal oprichniki” Devlet-Girey just missed. Yes, then he executed them for it, but ... he also executed the one who took Kazan, and if he didn’t execute? Well, in the end, the Livonian war, after all, Ivan the Terrible lost! And the agreement with the Commonwealth, and the agreement with Sweden were Russia unprofitable! Ivangorod, Yam, Koporye - only Ivan IV's son Fyodor Ivanovich beat them back. What does beat off? Once again, the blood of warfare was spilled, and our warfare is, after all, very often the men of arable farming ... Although, on the other hand, this is a clear plus for him, because we know what this turned out to be before the time, because it was Tsar Ivan IV who created the Strelets army which in the future, up to Peter himself, faithfully served the Russian State.

And then, further, we have just the very thing that is why our two myths, the oprichnina, are most hostile. The liberal myth says that in such a manner Ivan the Terrible created the prototype of the NKVD. But this is the same as saying that Peter I created the MIC. In both cases, there is a similarity, but ... it is necessary to take into account time, and besides, to operate not with particulars, but with the general that does not change when changing particulars. And what is it? And this is the problem of personnel rotation! Tops always want to stay where they are. This has been the case since Paleolithic. But ... without the influx of fresh blood, the elite is rotting, losing its grip, and the country being led to it is being done ... by the military booty of its neighbors.

So in Russia there were only a few dozen boyar and princely families, from which people could be accepted into the boyar duma both in the governor and in orders to put heads on their heads. However, over time, this was not enough. The influx of fresh personnel has declined sharply. His understanding of the elite tasks of government led to conflicts and outright treason.

It was from here that “Kromyshnin” (“oprich” - “except”) was born. It was the basis for a parallel control system, and for creating a “parallel elite” based on personal loyalty to the royal personage. This has already happened in history. Something similar, and even with the transfer of the capital and the approach to it of people who were not well-born, Pharaoh Akhenaton, the author of the Sunshine religious revolution in ancient Egypt, once thought. So did Louis IX, who relied on the advice of the barber and the royal ... executioner, so that Ivan Ivan the Terrible didn’t even think of anything new, it was just that it was a match for the scale of the country, which seemed (and it was) very significant.

But command without troops is not command. Hence the confiscation of land, repression against those representatives of the elite, who are clearly against and ... recruitment and placement of personnel, in the form of people like Malyuta Skuratov - “they will not let those down”. All this has destroyed the balance in society, that is, the most terrible thing that could happen.

No, it was not “Milena” who was executed by Tsar Ivan Vasilyevich, thousands, and then in a few years and all within a dozen - either five, or six thousand people. This is not enough for us. For the time in Russia is a lot! After all, it was a means of political struggle, until that time in the Russian state is unknown! Since the time of the first princes of this in Russia did not happen, and then suddenly it knows where it started from. Yes, the princes of each other and in the cellar planted, and killed, and blinded, and strangled, and poisoned, but on such a scale at that time, murder, above all, noble people committed us just utter.

And here's an interesting question, but where did all this come from? From the depths of a spoiled Ivanova nature, which in childhood had received more than one psychological trauma, or from where? Most likely ... "from there", because it was under Ivan IV that Russia established intensive ties with Sweden, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Germany, and even with distant England. But at that moment in Europe there were religious wars. Catholics slaughtered Protestants, and Protestants Catholics. Even without war! In America, in the colonies, the Spaniards slaughtered a settlement of French Huguenots. "Killed not like the French, but as heretics," said the Spaniards. The French burned down their village in retaliation, and hung up the prisoners: “They were hanged not as Spaniards, but as rapists and murderers!” Such was the “life” there.

And even before the start of mass executions, “in the oprichnina of Tsar Ivan” there was a massacre in Vassi in France, Eric XIV executed many of his nobles, and in England there was Mary the Bloody. That is, we have people - and above all, the king himself, we learned that this is possible. And if this is done “there”, then why shouldn't we use similar means? Ivan Chapygin has a remarkable historical novel “Razin Stepan”, highly praised by Maxim Gorky. There are a lot of references to historical documents in it, that is, he didn’t write out of his head, and here there is a revealing phrase: “We take measure from the sea, - there people are tortured and burn our own strength ...” And this was indeed the case. In Germany and the Netherlands in the Middle Ages even special commissions were established to check the population for signs of pedication. Even the highest post did not save him from punishment for sodomy - so, it was for her that Dutch President Gosin de Wilde was beheaded.

Against this background, church penance, no matter how strict it may be, does not seem such a strict punishment. More tolerant attitude of the Muscovites to the Sodom sin was repeatedly noted with surprise by many foreign travelers, including Sigismund Herberstein. In numerous travel notes it is mentioned that the Sodom sin served as the subject of a wide variety of jokes and was not regarded as something absolutely sinful. For foreigners, it was wild - jokingly reproaching in vice, which was punishable by death in their homeland! And it is not surprising that the flow of information came not only from us to the West, but also from the West to us. You read the king's letters to Queen Elizabeth: his broad outlook, good knowledge of foreign affairs, and observantness - “why do all of your letters have different print marks?”

Well, then it turned out the way it always goes. The new elite wanted to compare with the old. But not with intelligence and experience, she neglected this, having behind her “her” sovereign. Not! Wealth! That is, the oprichniki began to openly rob the Zemstvo, but the oprichnina army could not cope with its enemies without Zemsky ratification. Here is the king of her in 1572 year and canceled. But it was already late, as already noted, the social peace in the country gave a crack and very deep.


Parsun Ivan the Terrible from the collection of the National Museum of Denmark (Copenhagen), the end of the XVI - the beginning of the XVII centuries.

As a result, the reign of Ivan IV ended with demographic losses, especially in the northern regions, with economic, as well as territorial, although the total land area increased. It was a blow to the country's reputation - “Devlet Girey burned Moscow,” the church, which had not happened for a long time. In a word, Ivan the Terrible failed to “deal” with the elite. It is good that at least the fact that people are tired of everything and the person who gives them rest from excessive tension is loved and revered. Such a ruler for Russia was the son of Ivan the Terrible, in which the country recovered somewhat from the consequences of great deeds and was again ready for the next challenges of “modernity”. Well, and the “fresh blood” still joined the elite, the most irreconcilable ones were honored to the Lord, so that the amplitude of the historical pendulum acquired a much more acceptable frequency of rocking.

That is, whether someone likes it or not, but the personality of Tsar Ivan is very complicated, controversial and tragic. To create and see how your deed is crumbling to dust, to do good and to see how you are betrayed by the benevolent, faithful change, rootless, who seem to give you all - go out of the will and rage, slaves rebel, in a word, he carried Nemer, and here and God with his commandments and God's punishment, the word ... everything, as in the movie: "Between the angel and the demon."

PS Well, now about the "soap", and where are these two myths and the difference in ideologies. The fact is that in the cities of Europe for a long time the issue of sewage was solved very badly. Even when the streets were paved with stone, and the houses became multi-storey, it was not built, and barrels on the landings were used to collect fecal masses. Early in the morning, they were taken by the vacuum trucks, demolished down the stairs and poured into large barrels on carts. Naturally, something and shed. And so in front of every home! Getting out of it in long skirts meant ... just revenge them on the dirty pavement, so you had to wash it regularly, and wash it with soap! The Russian cities in this regard were the township estates, where all the amenities were in your yard, and not a little. Therefore, what was there to wash with soap?

As for the myths, the first one came from the liberal traditions of “fighting tyranny” and Herzen’s “Call an Rus to the ax!”. And the second was born in the Soviet times through the efforts of director Sergei Eisenstein, who shot the epic two-part film “Ivan the Terrible”, which became an apologist for Stalin. But he and the other were just a response from society to deceived expectations. The fact is that people always want more than they are promised, and are confident that everything around is done for their benefit, although in reality this is not at all the case. But it turned out that our society was deceived many times: 1861, 1905-07, 1917, 1962, 1965, 1985, 1991 ... As a result, it received two large groups of people: those who "managed to adapt to new conditions" and "those who failed. Hence the dual attitude to the personality of Tsar Ivan the Terrible. Because both the left and the right, and those who won, and those who lost, wanted and wanted more, brought to a logical end, happiness in their own understanding, but they didn’t really want to wait and work for him. Who would come and give! And one wants a lot of tyranny (they pin their unfulfilled hopes on her), others that it does not exist at all (the same, but vice versa). That is, people live in the mythical world of extremes. Each representative of his direction looks at the image of the king (as well as at society as a whole) from his bell tower, but about the wave nature of social development, ups and downs, as if he does not know, although it is obvious that there was something and there was a decline in something, there was progress, but there was also regression, morality coexisted with overt amoralism, savagery with enlightenment, and so absolutely in everything! And the fact that the path to the elite is very complicated and difficult, for some reason they forget, as well as the fact that everyone is sooner or later, but rewarded according to his works or mind. And if not rewarded? It means that works are bad, and there are obvious problems with the mind. But there are such 80% in the society and you have to put up with it and ... just live! Well, we will consider the historiography of this issue next time.


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163 comments
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  1. +3
    16 November 2016 06: 53
    Ivangorod, Yam, Kopuri - only the son of Ivan

    In the eleventh paragraph of the article.
    How did Koporye suddenly turn into Kopuri?
    1. +10
      16 November 2016 08: 39
      another myth from the mythmaker kalibra! wassat
      1. +5
        16 November 2016 09: 37
        Quote: Uncle Murzik
        another myth from the mythmaker kalibra!

        Just tolerantly introduces the Finnish phoneme. Remember how in 1991-1993 "Tallinnnnnnnnnn" sounded proudly from our TV screens. The author simply forgot to see that the ruins of this repeatedly rebuilt fortress are still located on the territory of the Russian Federation.
      2. +3
        16 November 2016 14: 22
        Ah, Murzilka, hello! Articles to shut up about drinking was not enough? With links to which the eyes have not reached. Also insert links here? But should I throw the beads ... anyway, personally you will not read anything beyond that ...
        1. +3
          17 November 2016 09: 31
          Mr. Shpak Ovsky, I didn’t when I entered into a discussion about drunkenness belay the discussion was about your article "the problem of drug addiction in the 20th century in the USSR" belay so you didn’t prove by any means that such problems were especially among workers in the USSR, except you probably all know that alcohol is always easier to get than drugs especially at that time! wassatbut you are making progress you have a chance to beat Goebbels
          1. 0
            17 November 2016 20: 39
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            the discussion was about your article "the problem of drug addiction in the 20th century in the USSR"

            You do not know how to read? Reference No. 16 in an article on drunkenness. Or do you not read the links?
            Here is the text for you: 16. See more details: Sholomovich S.A. Report on the dispensary fight against drug addiction in Moscow // Questions of history. Issue 1. M., 1926, pp. 71-86.; Belousova M.T. Cocainism based on materials of forensic psychiatric examination // Crime and crime. Issue 1. M., 1926. P.99. In the same work Belousova M.T. indicates that among cocaine addicts the proportion of workers in the mid-20s was 10,7%, that is, every 10th was a drug addict! There. P.98).

            That is, every 10 used drugs. Is that not enough for you?
  2. +11
    16 November 2016 07: 15
    Numerous travel notes mention that Sodom sin was the subject of a wide variety of jokes and was not regarded as something completely sinful.


    Imagine if a modern foreigner listens to Russian spoken language, but not in Moscow in the Tretyakov Gallery, somewhere else at construction sites in the north. Will draw up conclusions on these "bazaars" ..., then publish them. In 100-300 years, there will be the same author who will draw conclusions from these notes about the characteristics of sexual life, about the tolerance and tendency of our society to various perversions. And thoughtfully paint them for our descendants.

    And the whole article is empty.
    1. +2
      16 November 2016 07: 52
      By the way, a "bazaar" at a construction site is also a culture. And why not draw conclusions from it? Moreover, not just one, but many "bazaars". And, imagine, all the conclusions about which you write on their basis can be made quite motivated. In addition, this text is based not at all on words, but on data on penances at a specified time. That is: sins on the left - retribution on the right. And tolerance, yes, can be traced, especially in comparison with the West.
      1. +11
        16 November 2016 08: 20
        I liked the article, in contrast to many 'denouncing' and 'exalting', an attempt was made to give a tremendous assessment of Ivan the Terrible. Thanks to the author.
        1. +7
          16 November 2016 09: 27
          Quote: captain
          an attempt was made to give a valued estimate to Ivan the Terrible.

          ... is it the "treasure" grade? Then, perhaps, I will agree, since I cut...
          1. 0
            18 November 2016 11: 06
            Plain typo.
      2. 0
        16 November 2016 12: 18
        "Bazaar" -part of the culture of the people, and other people do not and never will. but there is tolerance and there is room for different opinions and people have lived and will live for a long time
    2. +19
      16 November 2016 08: 31
      No, Michael, no.
      This is not an empty article. This is much worse. This is an exceptional example of how you can distort in publications. There are no specifics, but there are half hints, direct hints. What needs to be shaded is served "... it seems like bae, maybe". And what needs to be pointed out - well, "... foreigners wrote ..." !!! All. Everybody wrote. Including Sigismund Herberstein. Why not a word about John Horsey - Ivan Loshadnik? He also smeared everyone with a shit, and was not mentioned.
      For the umpteenth time, for the umpteenth time. As they used to say - subtle hints of thick circumstances.
      And the result is a clear sensation - aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah It was then combed and dyed.
      As for the two fortresses in Orel, you can ask in more detail, and Vyacheslav Olegovich. I, as a bele, myself came out of Orel, and I’m wondering what kind of two fortresses we are talking about, which one, only Ivan the Terrible ordered to put. Yes, they didn’t see it, judging by your article. And the second, which was crowned with success, during the first Romanov, if I understood correctly.
      Will there be anything about Stoglav - the source of those times?
      And what about the version of the creative union of Ivan the Terrible and William, ours, Shakespeare?
      And how England became the mistress of the seas with the help of Ivan the Terrible will see material?
      Why so ... if we begin to use unreliable sources - so it is necessary to the full extent.
      The founders of HX are smoothed with dirt for less, and they are based only on chronicles and zodiacs.
      Correction - wrote John Horsey .... So not John, but Jerome. Jerome Horse. Yurka, in short, the Horseman. Although ..... Jerome ... casts, is not it? Cherries in the forehead of a deer, ducks in fat ...
      1. +3
        16 November 2016 08: 55
        You can’t insert everything. A lot of everything. There will be historiography. And more, I think, is nothing to give. Everything is there.
        1. avt
          +7
          16 November 2016 09: 41
          Quote: kalibr
          You can’t insert everything. A lot of everything. There will be historiography. And more, I think, is nothing to give.

          laughing Straight away in the Soviet cartoon, where the hero shoved firewood and dough in a tub into the stove - "Ita-a-ak will do!" laughing Or maybe there was nothing to DO? Well, according to his own covenant
          Quote: kalibr
          And more, I think, is nothing to give.

          Well, without this article
          Quote: kalibr
          Everything is there.

          laughing
          1. +1
            16 November 2016 20: 26
            Good evening, Igor Vladimirovich! Somehow I rarely meet you. I am glad to see you and your comment. Everything as you write. Only much worse. Here is the king. His demonic image. And he commands someone? What kind of Russians are they? Here’s an example in yesterday’s article ....... Yes, and the author promises to talk about other terrible details of the Russian people Probably to make a comparison with Europe ....
            A 23.10. There was an article - an interview with Andrei Fursov about Ivan the Terrible.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +11
    16 November 2016 07: 52
    for a man who had such a childhood and youth, whose wife was poisoned, they were quite peaceful loving. among other things, the poet and composer
  4. +15
    16 November 2016 08: 14
    It was the case .. He worked in the department of culture of our town .. There was a public council at the department .. the Council of the intelligentsia was called .. Somehow, at a meeting of this council, he raised the question .. But whether we should sway at the monument to the founder of our city .. Temryuk ... and how tourists ask why the name of the city is ... and there is no monument ... to the founder ... Just a question: Where can I get the treasury -de is empty in the administration .. Easy .. we will turn to the fraternal republic of Adygea, he is their countryman .. they honor and find money, and they will make a sculpture and a monument ... and they will bring it and install it. Yes ... No, they say ... Prince Temryuk was a relative of Ivan the Terrible, he married his daughter out for him, son of Mikhail Temryukovich is an oprichnik, and Ivan the Terrible himself is a tyrant .. and now democracy is freedom, it’s not worth it ... There’s no monument Prince Temryuk .. in the city founded by him ..
    1. +2
      16 November 2016 09: 27
      Well .... here you gave Mach, of course. (Interestingly, foreigners will say about our orientation)
      But, an excellent memorial of the Great Patriotic War. Obviously better than any monuments to which specific princes.
      1. +13
        16 November 2016 12: 56
        Why was Kabard of Prince Temryuk a vassal of Russia in the Caucasus and waged wars against the Crimea, Maly Nogayev and Shamkhalat. In 1569, the 130th Turkish-Tatar army, led by the Kafin Pasha Kasim Bey and the Crimean Khan Devlet Geray, made an unsuccessful campaign against Astrakhan. When retreating to Crimea along the Kabardian road, Turks and Crimean Tatars were attacked by Kabardian troops under the command of Temryuk and his sons, who inflicted heavy damage on them. Kabardinians easily defeated tired enemies, took rich prey and many prisoners.
    2. +3
      16 November 2016 14: 14
      Are you living in Temryuk? Interesting ... I was just there, I liked the city. And the museum ...
      1. +2
        16 November 2016 16: 32
        I somehow did not hide .. smile
  5. +14
    16 November 2016 08: 30
    The author carefully * circumvented * the betrayal of his neighbors, former childhood friends, and the fact that the * small ice age * and much more began. But be sure to mention all the sins and the terrible. By the way, in the memory of the people and in fairy tales, he is GREATLY. This is to those who any strengthening of Russia was like * an oriental knife * carefully remembered the infringement * of their rights *, carefully avoided the fact that it was GREASY for enemies.
    Under the Romanovs, it was required to justify * the divine providence * of accession, and so they hired boltologists to write and justify their own * rights * to the throne. Therefore, works appeared including talented poets and writers on the topic of the conviction of Ivan the Terrible, and even the picture is in support of what was not.
    How history professionals and boltologists * work * we see with our own eyes, even very recent events, which we ourselves are witnesses, interpret so that it’s fit to lie and * reward *. By the way, under Ivan the Terrible, the territory of Russia increased and the people increased. It’s a shame when today's leaders try to judge the ANCESTORS from their viewpoint and based on their own understanding of events.
    1. +3
      16 November 2016 08: 59


      Quote: kalibr
      by the time of Ivan the Terrible, and the territory of Russia increased and the people increased.


      And the documents for the collection of taxes of that time say that the land was desolate ... And who judges? Karamzin, Solovyov, Klyuchevsky - of course, people are very harmful ...
      1. +3
        16 November 2016 23: 29
        Quote: kalibr
        And the documents for the collection of taxes of that time say that the land was desolate ...

        And the fact that in our time Siberia and the Far East are emptying, is Ivan the Terrible also to blame?
        1. +2
          17 November 2016 05: 11
          Quote: Amurets
          And the fact that in our time Siberia and the Far East are emptying, is Ivan the Terrible also to blame?

          He, he is damned. Together with Stalin.
          1. +2
            17 November 2016 06: 17
            Quote: EvgNik
            He, he is damned. Together with Stalin.

            Here they are, the damned "Enemies of the People". And you don't need to calculate.
    2. +9
      16 November 2016 09: 52
      When modern * boyars * fill out a tax return, they also refer to desolation. Under BORIS GODUNOV there was a year when MOSCOW the river froze on August 15, some believe that then there was * the peak of a small ice age *. That is why Russia mastered the southern borders.
      And the historians who listed carefully worked out the order. They were paid for it. Absolutely loyal subjects * works * were published on the occasion of the * 300th anniversary of the Romanovs' house *, then about God's providence and sacred affairs, but you never know what they wrote about.
      1. +1
        16 November 2016 20: 32
        I want to add about modern boyars. Steal for billions ------ then lower the price of the stolen go. NOW in St. Petersburg ----- pipe. case. Instead of a few lards, as in the beginning, ----- turned out to be just a lemon !!!!!! .
  6. +13
    16 November 2016 09: 06
    It is not for us descendants who gladly accept Western values ​​and forget their own, to judge those who built great Russia!
    The article once again shows how Western liberalism and democracy have deeply taken their poisonous roots in Russia.
  7. +7
    16 November 2016 10: 16
    The article is a dummy, the next, and how many of them are ahead! How many are not covered by where you can lie. Here are the comments pleased, the only bright thing that remains of the article. Guys! Thank!
    1. 0
      16 November 2016 12: 25
      then you can evaluate Putin (on TV and newspapers).
      What will be discovered in the archives in 100 years is not important?
      Not a full assessment, and it doesn’t matter.
      PEOPLE LIVES AND GLORY TO GOD
    2. +1
      16 November 2016 14: 08
      But the dogs are barking, and the caravan is coming, yes ?!
      1. +5
        16 November 2016 14: 55
        Would you write, Vyacheslav Olegovich, articles about castles, about knights, you did it well, and respect for you was genuine. By the way, why don’t you write anything about Russian fortresses? good articles could come out. Only seriously need to write, with respect to our history, without admiration for the West. So you can hardly.
        1. +6
          16 November 2016 17: 16
          What can be the worship of the West in the story of Russian fortresses? You will already have a threat from the West soon at night ... And fortresses, fortresses like this: there was an excellent book by Nosov. And why should I repeat myself? Meaning? Find on the Web and read, and the whole story! Why should I cross the road to another author? Personal impressions? But I was only in the Kazan Kremlin. And when he was not set as his task to write about him ... Now I regret it, but you can’t return the past. There is material about my hometown of Penza. Moreover, I ordered the artist her drawing. And yesterday he handed it to me. Now we need interesting photos again, right? To do this, drag yourself into the museum and wander around the city. So not everything is so easy and simple, right? But an article about Penza fortress will be required.
    3. 0
      17 November 2016 20: 43
      Quote: EvgNik
      where can you lie

      Have you ever caught me in a lie? Do you want it? But ... will not work! Many wanted, oh, how they wanted. But ... it has not yet happened. And it won’t work out for you. Polyfoam is not the same!
      1. +3
        18 November 2016 05: 22
        Quote: kalibr
        Have you ever caught me in a lie? Do you want it?

        No, I haven’t set such a goal yet. I don’t need to ascribe my thoughts.
        1. +3
          18 November 2016 06: 30
          Yes, I’ll add. Grinded you Vyacheslav Olegovich. Look at which shell (sorry for the expression, but it is) supports you. And compare with those who thanked you for the articles six months ago.
          Good luck in your exploration of the negative.
          1. +1
            19 November 2016 20: 33
            How do you speak out contemptuously about people who are completely unfamiliar to you? Not good? Why did you decide that they are "shelupon", who gave you such a right to evaluate those whom you personally do not know? The same can be said about you? No academic degree, no title, right? But for some reason I don't call you that? And again - "I have not yet set myself such a goal." Excellent! Then why write "where you can lie"? Or is it where you live, such verbal expressions? Again I will repeat myself. You have every right to express your personal opinion, including contemptuous in relation to other visitors of the VO and in my relation too. But ... you do not have complete information, and you do not own ... you should not do this. And if you do this, it does not mean your high culture.
  8. +14
    16 November 2016 10: 18
    Good article, Vyacheslav. Only in vain you are trying to be objective, they will not understand not those ...
    In general, in my opinion, the personality of Ivan IV the Terrible has turned into a kind of fetish, for both liberals and cheers for patriots. It is now a part of such a religion, belief in the "true history" of our state ... And the destruction of the dogmas of faith in the believer, as you know, leads to cognitive dissonance in the latter, and as a consequence to inappropriate behavior and tons of slag materials in the comments.

    PS IMHO - Tsar Ivan IV the Terrible - was a great sovereign who determined the development vector of my homeland, and he was a despot, tyrant and bloodsucker. But once, somewhere, and someone else was different?
    1. +5
      16 November 2016 14: 07
      Quote: merlin
      And the destruction of the dogmas of faith in the believer, as you know, leads to cognitive dissonance in the latter, and as a result of inappropriate behavior and tons of slag materials in the comments.

      Well. to be afraid of "not going to the forest".
      1. +2
        16 November 2016 21: 51
        Quote: kalibr
        Well. to be afraid of "not going to the forest".

        Great article, thanks Vyacheslav.
    2. +2
      16 November 2016 18: 49
      The dog barks, and the caravan goes, the dog barks and does not notice that the caravan has gone far ahead, the dog has dog death
      The wind of history will dispel everything in its places and back streets.
      The human losses at Peter1 are enormous. and the result is everyone will appreciate it.
      1. +4
        16 November 2016 20: 37
        The biggest losses from the rule of Yeltsin. Human, territorial, demographic and many others.
        1. 0
          16 November 2016 20: 55
          I say in various comments "about EBN we know everything and even more than Naina Iosifovna, and how to evaluate other time (were not witnesses)?"
          So, Grozny will not suffer from our assessments.
          I believe that EBN wanted good for their country.
          Then leave Grozny a place in a good story
      2. +1
        16 November 2016 21: 20
        Of course, I appreciated your free flight of consciousness and was even impressed somewhere ... so to speak with the imagery of this opus ... BUT! You would have tied, drugs are unhealthy.
  9. +5
    16 November 2016 10: 18
    To be continued..
    Oh I do not want!
    1. +4
      16 November 2016 14: 06
      Your opinion in this case does not count. That is, the material will be according to anyone, whether you personally want it or not. Do not read! Nobody forces TV to watch.
      1. +3
        17 November 2016 05: 26
        Quote: kalibr
        Do not read! Nobody forces TV to watch.

        Well, I do not read. Today (yesterday) I lost my mind, did not think that your article. But I follow the comments - they give more than an article.
        1. +1
          17 November 2016 07: 37
          I also follow. The Pareto Law 80 and 20 they confirm.
        2. +1
          17 November 2016 17: 48
          Quote: EvgNik
          Quote: kalibr
          Do not read! Nobody forces TV to watch.

          Well, I do not read. Today (yesterday) I lost my mind, did not think that your article. But I follow the comments - they give more than an article.

          The poor fellow. You are not the only one here. The theme is significant, and here is Shpakovsky, and what is more, with whom. What’s called a school of friends (sorry for the expression, all the same ...).
      2. +1
        17 November 2016 17: 44
        Quote: kalibr
        Your opinion in this case does not count. That is, the material will be according to anyone, whether you personally want it or not. Do not read! Nobody forces TV to watch.

        You are mistaken, or rather skimp on your profession. The consumer is always right. And if I say that mmmm is written, how to say it in Russian ... venal, oh, then it is.
        Admit it, watch TV at night? I already forgot that it was such, communication with you takes all your free time.
        1. 0
          17 November 2016 20: 49
          I wanted to spit on such consumers. Now my next book has come out and, judging by the consumption of consumers, which is expressed in specific royalties, things are going well. The book "If Hitler took Moscow" had to be republished twice. The consumer votes with the ruble! Next in line is a book about tanks ...
          1. +2
            17 November 2016 21: 21
            Quote: kalibr
            I wanted to spit on such consumers. Now my next book has come out and, judging by the consumption of consumers, which is expressed in specific royalties, things are going well. The book "If Hitler took Moscow" had to be republished twice. The consumer votes with the ruble! Next in line is a book about tanks ...

            Yes, I wanted to spit on such books (in your language, dear sir, and on such writers (write from the word), you can take them to the toilet, because consumers don’t know what they bought under a beautiful cover with an intriguing title. pricked, with his PR technology? Scientist pricked, why honestly do not indicate your specialty?
            1. 0
              18 November 2016 07: 25
              Is there no information in the data on the site? You don’t have them, but I have everything written, where, when, how much .. Everything is .. On the Internet, all my books are, including on PR and advertising. And I do not urge you to buy my books, God forbid. But you well remembered about PR technologies. You are also their victim, although you yourself do not suspect what exactly. Someday I will tell you in detail. Your trouble is that you ignore the world experience, which, incidentally, the Soviet Communists burnt to pieces. Therefore, you will always be ... there. You need to read the books of your opponents, think about how strong they are and try to block their advantages with something real. Not words. Reasonable people respect this.
              1. 0
                18 November 2016 10: 50
                Quote: kalibr
                P Your trouble is that you are ignoring the world experience, which, incidentally, the Soviet Communists burnt to pieces. Therefore, you will always be ... there. You need to read the books of your opponents, think about how strong they are and try to block their advantages with something real. Not words. Reasonable people respect this.

                Vyacheslav, your trouble is that you ignore the world experience. World experience teaches: betrayer once, betray another. And despite the licking boots loyally to the new owners, the traitor is always doomed. From the traitors, excellent performers are obtained who fiercely hate the devotees by them. But time passes, the need for them disappears. Do-it-yourself candidate on communist slogans, and now you want a damned dictatorship?
                Reasonable people respect this. Are you hinting at your masters? I prefer decent people.
                "Better to lose with a decent than find with a scoundrel"
                1. 0
                  18 November 2016 18: 30
                  It's funny to read it ... I've already written to you three times. You forgot the election results. In general, you seem to be reading only yourself. I ask you, there is no answer. Instead of answering new denunciations and questions. I already wrote to you, you are not the head of the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation, so this is funny to me. And I answer you for only one reason. I also wrote about her. People like you ... are needed! There would be no such, it would be necessary to invent them. And why they are needed, I won't tell you. It's professional. And that's why I answer. By the way, at one time Penza was in the "red belt". There was material here, how I made it come out of it. That's what the right PR technology is. And so it was, and so it will be. 1917 will never happen again.
                  1. 0
                    19 November 2016 20: 55
                    Quote: kalibr
                    People like you ... are needed! By the way, at one time Penza was in the "red belt". There was material here, how I made it come out of it. That's what the right PR technology is. And so it was, and so it will be. 1917 will never happen again.

                    1. Vyacheslav. We need you even more.
                    2 canceled, wow, clever little girl, and in 1917 forgot. Good.
                    3. What can I wish you today? The fate of Zhirinovsky, your father, I think you are worthy.
                  2. +1
                    19 November 2016 21: 20
                    Aaaaaaaa !!!!!! That's all the secret and it becomes clear !!!!! I missed how you wrote about Penza, about the "red belt." for the sake of some right businessmen ------ watched. Which ones? Maybe an apple, maybe Parnassus? Or maybe ---- take it higher ----- let the control of Russia pass into foreign hands forever? Yes, probably so. "" United Russia "" was not for you at all. GOOD article turned out --- "" United Russia "---- Armored train of the White Guard." "I did not know such events about the armor of the train !! About battles. Just battles of giants !!!!! And in schools about it === 0000 !!!!
                    And how did people read what the ruling party is, and what kind of flag ----- they came to the polling stations very little. !!!!! On the one hand, you tried, explained, and wanted the people to turn away. But something is not all !!!!! Soros nervously smokes on the sidelines.
                    About the necessary interlocutors. Due to the abundance of what you wrote, you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, forgot that you wrote about fictional interlocutors on the pages of VO. I ----- I remember. Either at the end of last year, or at the beginning of this year.
                    I said before that socialism will return. It has not gone forever. It is close. Previously, many people envied capitalism ---- "" We should be so rotten. "Now ---- dream of what happened.
  10. +14
    16 November 2016 11: 04
    There was such a term in Soviet historiography "the gathering of lands around Moscow, the formation of a Russian centralized state." The term explained a lot, gave a key to understanding historical events from the moment of getting rid of the Mongol yoke to Peter's reforms. Russia was created, strengthened, could afford to make revolutions, fight and fight the occupiers. And all this is due to the "gathering of lands".
    Now, after the collapse of the USSR, a new Russia is being created (how and who would not want to see it, who would not want to turn the events back). Again, we see this "land-gathering". Without this, it is impossible, without this centrifugal forces will simply destroy the state, scatter our entire people around the world.
    The reign of Ivan IV the Terrible is a milestone in the history of the Russian state. The milestone is undeniable. And the pogrom of Novgorod with its "democracy", and the capture of Kazan, and the Livonian War, and the oprichnina all this predetermined the development of the country for centuries to come.
    And let there be a monument to the first Russian Tsar. Well done, who invented it! And looking at him, let the descendants think that this is the first Russian tsar (not the emperor, as many even think on our site), that, in fact, the progressive movement of our country went from him.
    I rejoice for the monument to Alexander I in the Alexander Garden in Moscow. Opened quietly, peacefully, quietly and peacefully, he stands there against the backdrop of the Kremlin wall and calmly gazes at passers-by and tourists. No one spears on this occasion did not break.
    And thank God. And if our whole history is somehow connected with the name of kings, secretaries-general and presidents, then there should be their monuments. I think so.
    And the second one. Well, it is impossible to perceive the events of a hundred, and even more than five thousand years ago, as if they were yesterday. These are piles in the foundation of our state that cannot be loosened, not a belt, not a tape, which can be twisted, turned, and additional holes drilled on them.
    1. +9
      16 November 2016 12: 03
      Well, if you erect monuments to all who have clearly manifested themselves in the history of the country, regardless of whether with the "+" sign or with the "-" sign, then why not erect, for example, a monument to False Dmitry - a truly fantastic figure: "out of mud yes to the riches (or rather to the tsars) "or Malyuta Skuratov - the loyal servant of the sovereign or the" innocently murdered "Tsarevich Alexei Petrovich, etc. etc. "And looking at him, let the descendants think ...". (In the end, I apologize for the blasphemous exaggeration, but in order to make the descendants "think", you can put something memorable for Hitler).
      Still, to accept monuments to those whose activities are assessed by descendants not just by the "+" sign, but by "++++++". As it is written on the monument to citizen Minin and Prince Pozharsky: "grateful Russia". They bet those to whom we are grateful. In this respect, the personality of Ivan the Terrible is very controversial and controversial, which, it seems to me, was written very well by the author of the article, who managed to tell about Grozny without going to extremes, which other authors often sin.
      1. +3
        16 November 2016 12: 40
        Quote: alebor
        managed to talk about Grozny without going to extremes

        absolutely right! I would also add "and slogans".
      2. +1
        16 November 2016 18: 38
        Still, to accept monuments to those whose activities are evaluated by descendants not just by the "+" sign, but by "++++++". As it is written on the monument to citizen Minin and Prince Pozharsky: "grateful Russia". Started for health.
        They pose to those to whom we are grateful. In this regard, the identity of Ivan the Terrible is very controversial and contradictory, He finished for peace. In one breath.
        The Emperor erected a monument to citizen Minin and Prince Pozharsky for his saved kingdom, 300 years later, or so. But Grozny did not find a place on the monument to 1000 years of Russia, and the masson Karamzin is dancing. Why? Yes, because Grozny Rurikovich, and the Romanovs ran to warm up, and remained.
        Regarding Grozny, maybe a referendum, then we will decide who the people are and to whom they are grateful.
        1. +3
          17 November 2016 08: 08
          Here you are all about Karamzin - a freemason, a freemason. And by the way, he is probably the only famous person of that time about whom ... no one said anything bad! There are no obscene details, no memories discrediting him, there is no compromising evidence. And that says a lot. A freemason, well, a tribute to tradition, then it was fashionable. Pushkin was an inveterate gambler - "a famous banker". But this, as a great writer, does not spoil him!
          1. +2
            17 November 2016 10: 58
            Quote: kalibr
            Here you are all about Karamzin - a freemason, a freemason. And by the way, he is probably the only famous person of that time about whom ... no one said anything bad! There are no obscene details, no memories discrediting him, there is no compromising evidence. And that says a lot. A freemason, well, a tribute to tradition, then it was fashionable. Pushkin was an inveterate gambler - "a famous banker". But this, as a great writer, does not spoil him!

            You make stupid things with persistence worthy of surprise, mister historian. For 150 years, everything has been cleaned, before the revolution by the Masons, after the revolution by the liberals and Trotskyists.
            There are tons of jokes, gossip, and dirt written about Paul 1, and not a single good word has been written, what does he mean a scoundrel? All the writers of the nobility affected by it, everything. He sabaka abolished the liberties of the Great Katka and made them serve. For this he received fame.
            Stalin was dumped in the mud, millions of victims, a maniac too? "Dad was arrested! And he is not guilty!" And dad told 3-10 year old children at night how he was fighting the Stalinist regime. Rave.
            And Karamzin from the same barrel. He wrote our story under the order of the Romanov House according to German patterns and became untouchable and unquestioned.
            1. +1
              17 November 2016 12: 28
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              And Karamzin from the same barrel. He wrote our story under the order of the Romanov House according to German patterns and became untouchable and unquestioned.


              You see, in order to assert this, you must ... know your place! Who are you? Has a famous historian studied this question? Just don't need me to refer to your favorite "live magazines". This is not an authoritative source. I have not read about this anywhere in the magazine ISSUE ISSUE, and there have not been any monographs of serious authors on this topic, but where did you read it? If you can recommend me a solid academic study, I would be very grateful to you. But if it's in someone's live journal, then don't bother to bring it. It is as easy to disavow such a source as you do - you are a turner, a baker, - You never introduced yourself to me, you have to be a very arrogant person.
              We seem to have figured out millions of victims, right? In my article I cited data from the archive and an excerpt even from a school textbook, where these numbers are. Well, fools who do not look into the archives, enough left and right. In addition to gossip, there were a lot of sober and balanced messages about Paul, so again, nobody canceled fools with a loud cry. And in this barrel, along with all Karamzin is not necessary. You would rather read his work on the history of Russia more closely. One of the troubles of Russia in us is that very many have heard something, read something, and therefore judge everything. And the pros must judge ... and the cook children (with the appropriate education, yes ?!) have a place in the kitchen.
              1. +2
                17 November 2016 14: 16
                Vyacheslav, you seem to have already mentioned the Parretto law? And here is Hanlon’s razor:
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                And Karamzin from the same barrel. He wrote our story under the order of the Romanov House according to German patterns and became untouchable and unquestioned.

                As stated by K. Eskov it sounds like this: "It is easier to admit that the world is ruled by a well-thought-out villainy for many moves ahead, than to admit the obvious: the world is ruled by a mess - stupidity, sheer incompetence and amazing irresponsibility that does not fit into the usual head of the Decision-Makers"
                Well, a person believes in the Masons ... Well, he likes it that way ... Well, let him ... Blessed are the believers ...
                1. +2
                  17 November 2016 15: 48
                  Oh, how right you are, unfortunately. I was once at an open lecture, also with an associate professor ... I talked about the 25th frame, how they use it to powder the brains. After the lecture, I ask, do you know that the author of "25 frames" has been in prison for a long time for fraud and admitted that he invented all this. "He told me, how do you know? I had to open the Network, show where and what was written about it That is, the man drew news from the forgotten newspapers of the Ochakov era ... I could not look into the Internet before the lecture and check it. That is, there is a mess? But they didn’t fired ...
              2. +1
                17 November 2016 17: 36
                kalibr Today, 12:28
                1. You see, to say that, you have to ... know your place! Who are you? A famous historian who studied this issue?
                Take and ask these questions to yourself and try to answer them honestly once.
                2. If you recommend me a solid academic study, I will be very grateful to you.
                And the works, so well known to you by your past merits to the fatherland, of the historical branch of the USSR Academy of Sciences, you will be honored by the most respectable, then:
                Soviet historical encyclopedia, 7 vols., M., 1965. I humbly await your promised gratitude.
                And just do not need rotten links to your favorite "live magazines". of unknown origin and labeled "the latest research of eminent foreign professors."
                1. 0
                  17 November 2016 20: 59
                  Have I ever referred to foreign live magazines?
                  Enciplopedia, Soviet, and even 1965, this is not a study. This is pure politics and propaganda. Find something more decent. This is good for you. It was good for Soviet schoolchildren. You should have looked at my list of studied monographs that I had to study when I wrote "Armies of Ivan the Terrinle / Russian Troops 1505 - 1700" (Osprey) There, one word could not be mistaken. Book in England. Smart people read there too, here in Russia, at universities and at the Russian Academy of Sciences. And their opinion, not like the opinion of bakers and turners, matters. And everything was OK! And you give me an encyclopedia of the times of Ochakov and the conquest of the Crimea to vanity. It's funny! Put her on toilet paper! Although ... to crumple for a long time, the paper is coated.
                  1. 0
                    18 November 2016 11: 28
                    Vyacheslav Olegovich, I like your works, scrupulous, literate. In an article about washing streets in Europe with soap, it reminded me of "Memory" by V. Chivilikhin. There, too, conclusions were drawn based on simple, understandable arguments. I agree with the article (my opinion). "The truth is somewhere in the middle." But the comment for "bakers and turners" honestly offended. My parents (kingdom of heaven) are a chauffeur and a telephone operator. So what? "Not one of the intellectuals", so what? So who do you write for then? For the "elite"? Well then, write the prefaces to the works: "Not for bakers and turners."
                    1. 0
                      18 November 2016 11: 44
                      Viditeli, Aleksey, turner and baker, in this case, is not a designation of a profession, but of incompetence in some matters. Agree categorical judgment of such people in not their topic looks ... stupid. Is not it so? I know many people not from the intelligentsia, but smart and well-read. But they do not immediately declare others Russophobes and enemies just because they don’t like something. I'm wrong? That is, to put it more clearly, there are good turners and bakers and there are bad ones. I do not demand "hallelujah" for my materials. But criticism must be reasoned and balanced. And then it comes out as in Krylov's fable. Only there about the shoemaker and the pastry. Will you be offended by him too? In my opinion, not worth it.
                      1. +1
                        18 November 2016 12: 01
                        Accepted. And the rest, thanks for the article.
      3. 0
        16 November 2016 18: 51
        a monument to False Dmitry - a truly fantastic figure: "from rags to riches (or rather to kings)"
        Here's the answer: from the mud on human blood slipped and fell
        With strangers brought "the torch of freedom?
      4. +1
        16 November 2016 19: 42
        In each era - its historical heroes. And always ambiguous. It is important to remember that each era was EXACTLY OUR grandparents, because they made the right decision. We are involved in those who then won. And those who come later, please do not disturb.
        Do not look at the flag - my ancestors in the history are marked before Ivan 1U.
        1. 0
          17 November 2016 08: 57
          and we will survive and there will be life
  11. +7
    16 November 2016 11: 35
    5 for that time a lot? author, are you serious?
    considering which rivers of blood flowed at the same time in fragrant Europe
    1. +1
      16 November 2016 12: 27
      local "masters" ruled the court and the robbers slaughtered Ivan 4 without the knowledge of him, and all 300 thousand and 7 million killed and executed were recorded on him
      1. +2
        16 November 2016 17: 08
        Where does the figure 7 million come from? Who counted this?
        1. 0
          16 November 2016 18: 55
          from the ceiling, for demonstration. that there are no sources (losses in people were always mentioned in the war from the Persians) and therefore cannot be blamed (at least "one wicket" of Grozny cannot be disgraced)
      2. +1
        16 November 2016 18: 18
        Quote: antivirus
        local "masters" ruled the court and the robbers slaughtered Ivan 4 without the knowledge of him, and all 300 thousand and 7 million killed and executed were recorded on him

        And the population of Russia at that time? And it grew and grew by leaps and bounds and amounted to 12 million hours.
        Oh, how do you know, you are eating from the master's table.
        1. 0
          16 November 2016 18: 57
          how did Rome change the demography of entire countries, and the crusaders, and the conquest of the Americas?
          Heroes are sitting on the couch, and the street cleaners sweep them
    2. +2
      16 November 2016 14: 13
      For Russia - a lot! It is for Russia at that time. Ask how many representatives of the nobility and clergy executed before Grozny.
    3. +7
      16 November 2016 15: 02
      One (!) Only Bartholomew’s night in France massively killed from 5000 to 30000 thousand people. This happened during the reign of King Charles IX in 1572. The killings took place on religious grounds and the king authorized the reprisal of Catholics over the Huguenots.
      In my opinion, it’s not worth juggling the memory of those killed. This is blasphemous.
  12. +6
    16 November 2016 12: 24
    Absolutely normal article, with an absolutely adequate attempt at analysis. good I sometimes wonder - you will say bad things about Ivan the Terrible - you will throw a half-forum with the contents of night pots, you’ll say bad things about Nicholas II — other half-forums will throw. But there is only one clue - in each coin there are two sides, and it is necessary to analyze together. soldier
    1. +2
      16 November 2016 17: 58
      So you and they throw up the material for analysis, analyze.
      Only as a result of the analysis will you want to change your place of residence. But I would not be in a hurry. Maybe you should understand not in the Internet, but in the library, read the history of your country, according to the book. And maybe you don’t want to talk badly about the terrible, or maybe you will cry over the fate of Nicholas 2. (just kidding, just kidding, but think about it)
      1. +2
        16 November 2016 18: 25
        and the article relies on book sources, I think the author has done enough to write. Over the fate of Nicholas? Killing is generally a sin. Unfortunately, the Bolsheviks could not do otherwise. Yes, and he himself made every effort to this, probably with his previous rule. Or he was just unlucky to be born and rule in an era of great change. request That is, there is a moral choice of each (including each reader), which is more important - the life of individuals, or a severe necessity (again, depending on who the need is for, the "white" thought differently). In my opinion, it's time to end the Civil War in general.
        As for me - I’m not going to betray my homeland. As well as the place of residence to change. I'm not kidding drinks
    2. +1
      17 November 2016 10: 17
      Because in historical analysis it should not be good or bad, there is a simple concept that it was like that ... that’s all ... in another case, just propaganda begins.
      And why should we even be ashamed of our ancestors?
      1. +1
        17 November 2016 10: 34
        so that's just the point! And here begins a "civil", or there, "class" struggle with slogans and the transition to personalities! Moreover, the sides sometimes "think out" half of the opponent! Adults are people!
        1. +1
          17 November 2016 18: 09
          Quote: Mikado
          so that's just the point! And here begins a "civil", or there, "class" struggle with slogans and the transition to personalities! Moreover, the sides sometimes "think out" half of the opponent! Adults are people!

          I do not think that with such slogans adults can go out. They read it on the site, pee, or pee ... and already adults. You have a father, for 4 sentences, 4 radicals. Valerian and bed rest.
          1. +1
            17 November 2016 18: 18
            mdaa .... as they say, no comment. You just confirmed what I said before. "Discussion" becomes personal.
      2. +2
        17 November 2016 18: 04
        Quote: varangian
        Because in historical analysis it should not be good or bad, there is a simple concept that it was like that ... that’s all ... in another case, just propaganda begins.
        And why should we even be ashamed of our ancestors?

        You see a young man, you wrote crap and do not understand it. Take POSTULAT for your homework and think: "Right or wrong, but this is my country" (homeland is the USA) and go to the USA and prove this .... rudely expressing, to put it mildly, that they are wrong, that this is not tolerant and not democratic, that this is contrary to their principles, this destroys respect for them. And then, if you have enough strength, you will understand that there is propaganda and whether it is so bad.
  13. +3
    16 November 2016 15: 04
    Actually, the candidate of historical sciences and associate professor should not produce such historical research. But, our gunfire ripened everywhere. And studying advertising in Japan, and communication management, and European knights. And so it’s been 40 years, now now the turn has come to John the Terrible.
    1. +2
      16 November 2016 16: 20
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Actually, the candidate of historical sciences and associate professor should not produce such historical research.

      In your opinion, should the candidate of historical sciences in physics write articles? .. Although some mathematicians write history works, it will be ... like Korney Ivanovich’s.
    2. +3
      16 November 2016 17: 04
      Strange statement, Victor! I have been working at the Department of PR and Advertising since 1995. True, now it is called "Philosophy and Social Communication". So. During this time, could you study advertising in Japan? And communication management? Check out my e-textbook on PR history. It is on the web. And three reprints of the book on BTL communications .... Knights - a topic since 1998, i.e. 18 years. Can I study something during this time? Moreover, the results are confirmed by publications in the VAK publications. Grozny is a national history. It's worse with her. But I taught it from 1991 to 1995. The main thing in this case is the methodology of history, the mastery of the material. There are no problems with the latter today. By the way, you also.
      1. +4
        16 November 2016 17: 38
        The main thing in this case is the methodology of history, possession of the material.
        I do not agree. The main love of Russian history. Do you love her honestly?
        1. 0
          17 November 2016 07: 45
          You make me remember the words from the film Alexander Nevsky. They shout to him: "You do not love us!" And he: "I did not come as a lover, but as a commander!" So I am not a lover of Russian history, so that I can go to it from orgasm, but its sober researcher. And this, first of all, makes us not go to extremes. And the article has it. Or are you how some girls read "War and Peace": I read the world, I skip the war?
          1. +2
            17 November 2016 10: 43
            Quote: kalibr
            You make me remember the words from the film Alexander Nevsky. They shout to him: "You do not love us!" And he: "I did not come as a lover, but as a commander!" So I am not a lover of Russian history, so that I can go to it from orgasm, but its sober researcher. And this, first of all, makes us not go to extremes. And the article has it. Or are you how some girls read "War and Peace": I read the world, I skip the war?

            Yeah You were born in the wrong country, dear researcher, to you in Germany, to pure science. Let me recall from the classics of the genre. As you know, the most prominent Russian language researcher is V. Dahl. An explanation was given of his accomplishments. Far German by origin, assiduous, with a tendency to accuracy, to meticulousness. Having discovered the curious and the unexplored, he could no longer come off. But to a Russian person to explore the Russian language is like exploring his mother.
            So maybe you should start researching your mother first? (but please come in from an orgasm, you can have a little love)
            1. +1
              17 November 2016 11: 17
              Quote: Mavrikiy
              So maybe you should start researching your mother first? (but please come in from an orgasm, you can have a little love)

              Nonsense you write, however.
              1. +1
                17 November 2016 11: 23
                Quote: kalibr
                Nonsense you write, but

                - write, However...
                - everything is bad in Russia. Well, if a writer cannot really write in Russian, then this is a complete ahtung already sad
                1. +2
                  17 November 2016 12: 37
                  Time is running out, dear. Of course, you need to check for yourself. Here you are right for all 100%.
                  1. 0
                    17 November 2016 12: 42
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Time is running out, dear. Of course, you need to check for yourself. Here you are right for all 100%.

                    - nothing personal
                    - the last week, there is nothing to do, I read IN
                    - every third, at least, "writes" (or maybe squeaks request ) Very common aship, yes ...
                    - and it is especially offensive to see it where a person argues on the case and with knowledge of the matter ... and it seems not a "victim of the exam", purely by age, even.

                    I personally somehow feel sad from this sad
                    1. 0
                      17 November 2016 21: 08
                      Roman, I have an excuse - a habit of hoping for ... proofreaders. Well, you have to write a lot, you can’t even imagine. And not only here. Here ... And sometimes I forget that they do not erase the comments.
              2. +1
                17 November 2016 18: 20
                Quote: kalibr
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                So maybe you should start researching your mother first? (but please come in from an orgasm, you can have a little love)

                Nonsense you write, however.

                Well why, all according to the logic of the crown researchers. "Scalpel! Lancet, oh flooded! Gag! (Very moment ...)"
                But this is the blood of the people, do not mind? However, what am I talking about, pity is not a scientific term.
                1. 0
                  17 November 2016 21: 09
                  You mean the shooting of workers in Novocherkassk, right? I feel sorry for these ...
                2. 0
                  18 November 2016 05: 56
                  One of the main ideas of Pokrovsky is that there can be no impartial history, history outside politics. History, as he repeatedly emphasized, is written not by ethereal beings, but by people who defend their own interests and the interests of their stratum, group, class. The struggle of the classes is thus reflected in all historical literature. In the book “The Struggle of Classes and Russian Historical Literature,” Pokrovsky outlined the political physiognomy of every major Russian historian.
                  "Who do you work for, Dunkel?" Eh the Pokrovskys were translated ..
      2. +1
        16 November 2016 18: 22
        Ready to apologize for the form, but not for the content. Maybe I really went through sarcasm, but the meaning of my comment was not to discredit your successes. I meant the following. A professional historian who knows the methodology of history (including methods of presentation
        1. +1
          16 November 2016 19: 00
          Some problems of the site do not allow to finish the thought, so I continue in this way.
          ... the results of historical knowledge) should also issue articles of the appropriate level, especially about such historical figures as Ivan the Terrible. The information space in general and this site in particular is full of materials of the level of popular literature and "The Tale of Warrant Officer Harness". If you decide to win laurels in this field - your will. But then take criticism calmly.
          1. 0
            17 November 2016 07: 48
            Is the criticism calm? Yes, I agree. But the fact that here and from you, for example, is not criticism of the times, but secondly, who criticizes something? Who have the honor? Turner, baker, ..
    3. +6
      16 November 2016 17: 21
      The author is just an anti-adviser. And this usually leads to Russophobia. Here and on the example of the author, this is especially evident. Citizen Shpakovsky did not write anything, that during the time of Ivan the Terrible, the normal process of centralization was going on and in all countries this process was accompanied by repressions against the ruling class. It’s better to see Klim Zhukov about Ivan the Terrible. Explained, everything is intelligible and logical: why they introduced the oprichnina, why then the king was smeared with black paint.
      1. +2
        16 November 2016 17: 52
        Quote: timyr
        The author is just an anti-adviser. And this usually leads to Russophobia.

        And to anti-Semitism-this is clearly seen in Ukraine ... your flaw, you forgot to blame it completely ... or are you like D. Bagrov: not really for the Jews? Yes, in general, in all seven deadly sins it is possible, because the author does not agree with your opinion, he is a bad person ...
        Quote: timyr
        Citizen Shpakovsky didn't write anythingthat during the time of Ivan the Terrible there was a normal process of centralization and in all countries this process was accompanied by repressions against the ruling class

        A citizen from Kazakhstan, do you read carefully? or didn’t master many letters?

        PS The situation itself is amusing in the comments, it’s a pity there is no popcorn ... One writes that five thousand people are like that, pennies. Of course, according to the well-known phrase, it’s just statistics ... Just a second, during the ten-year war in Afghanistan, 15 thousands died and military personnel doing their duty for a second, but how many snot and screams?
        The question is not why Ivan IV "repressed", the question of what did he achieve with this?
        Quote: timyr
        Better to see Klim Zhukov ...

        Exactly, it is there that the only correct, racially correct position is stated, because everything else is "Russophobia", and in general, why strain the convolutions, read something, think more ... so citizen Timur?
      2. +2
        16 November 2016 21: 58
        Quote: timyr
        The author is just an anti-adviser.

        Timur, what anti-advisers are now? What are we talking about? There is no USSR, there is no red ideology, anti-advisers hatched back in the late 80s of the last century laughing Now it’s fashionable to sculpt everyone as a liberal
        1. +2
          17 November 2016 04: 19
          Quote: RUSS
          Quote: timyr
          The author is just an anti-adviser.

          Timur, what anti-advisers are now? What are we talking about? There is no USSR, there is no red ideology, anti-advisers hatched back in the late 80s of the last century laughing Now it’s fashionable to sculpt everyone as a liberal

          Alas, there is no USSR, but the anti-Soviet remained and proudly bear the label liberal. You still say there are no anti-Stalinists, but there is no Stalin. Logic is good, but when it is raised to absolute, it becomes stupid. And the Red ideology is alive as you are not sad.
      3. +2
        17 November 2016 04: 29
        Quote: timyr
        The author is just an anti-adviser. And this usually leads to Russophobia. Here and on the example of the author, this is especially evident. Citizen Shpakovsky did not write anything, that during the time of Ivan the Terrible, the normal process of centralization was going on and in all countries this process was accompanied by repressions against the ruling class. It’s better to see Klim Zhukov about Ivan the Terrible. Explained, everything is intelligible and logical: why they introduced the oprichnina, why then the king was smeared with black paint.

        Ah Timur, how can you be so naive. Any history article is written for the task. Look at other materials of the author on our history at VO and you will understand everything. Amerlin is just a troll, and it will wind the guts.
        1. +2
          17 November 2016 08: 28
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          Ah Timur, how can you be so naive. Any history article is written for the task. Look at other materials of the author on our history at VO and you will understand everything. And Merlin is just a troll, and it will wind the guts.

          We hung up the labels, gave all the sisters an earring, my respect and respect to you. And the troll is spelled with two "L".
          You see, Mavrikiy, the criticism can be different: you can rude the author in a rather crude form, or you can carefully and thoughtfully read the article and point out specific significant errors.
          Why the second option in the comments was not chosen by anyone who disagreed with the author? But there are serious controversial issues in the article.
          But you didn’t even particularly read it, saw the surname, and on the basis of personal deep hostility, immediately started scribbling comments, just like Timur. How can you not troll here? One must learn to think, and then gray matter can work.
    4. +6
      16 November 2016 17: 49
      Quote: Dekabrist
      Actually, the candidate of historical sciences and associate professor should not produce such historical research. But, our gunfire ripened everywhere. And studying advertising in Japan, and communication management, and European knights. And so it’s been 40 years, now now the turn has come to John the Terrible.

      Well, no need to envy. And doubts about the giftedness of the author .. were encyclopedic scientists. Alas, it is our destiny to read his opuses and argue, to prove that he is destroying our worldview system, and he will prove to us that he expanded it. Only here the precipitation is bad from these texts. If according to our history, then I’m bending and filth (and how could I be against the truth, sources (and who wrote them, published, circulated, yes Vyacheslav2)), but as for the knights, honey is here, both noble and brave, and in five Nevsky almost filled, but thousands of stinks from all sides ... (and how could I against the truth, sources)
      The truth told spitefully, the poison poisonous lies.
      1. +2
        17 November 2016 06: 19
        How good, people wake up early, good morning! There are many articles on VO about Ivan the Terrible. Also in other years there were on this topic. I like the stories of A.I. Fursov on the history of Russia. I would like to buy his books, it didn’t work out so far. Probably about him, you can say, "" scientist-encyclopedist "
  14. +3
    16 November 2016 17: 07
    ... As a result, it received two large groups of people: those who "managed to adapt to new conditions" and "those who failed." Hence the ambivalence towards the personality of Tsar Ivan the Terrible. Because both the left and the right, and those who won, and those who lost, wanted and wanted more, brought to their logical end, happiness, as they understand it, they just do not really want to wait and work for it. Who would come and give! ...
    The author: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky

    And here comes the Author, all in white and all knowing.
    The author invents two opponents and argues with them. I suggest reading school textbooks, there are no extremes, in any case, it has never happened before.

    By the way, on the monument is not plow, but a plow.

    As for the installation of monuments, they must be installed where residents are not opposed. Kazan, for the installation of a monument to Ivan IV is not suitable, at least for now.
    1. +1
      16 November 2016 17: 25
      By the way, on the monument is not plow, but a plow.
      Sculptor, his flies are poisoning. But he also went to school.
  15. +1
    16 November 2016 19: 31
    Quote: merlin
    Quote: timyr
    The author is just an anti-adviser. And this usually leads to Russophobia.

    And to anti-Semitism-this is clearly seen in Ukraine ... your flaw, you forgot to blame it completely ... or are you like D. Bagrov: not really for the Jews? Yes, in general, in all seven deadly sins it is possible, because the author does not agree with your opinion, he is a bad person ...
    Quote: timyr
    Citizen Shpakovsky didn't write anythingthat during the time of Ivan the Terrible there was a normal process of centralization and in all countries this process was accompanied by repressions against the ruling class

    A citizen from Kazakhstan, do you read carefully? or didn’t master many letters?

    PS The situation itself is amusing in the comments, it’s a pity there is no popcorn ... One writes that five thousand people are like that, pennies. Of course, according to the well-known phrase, it’s just statistics ... Just a second, during the ten-year war in Afghanistan, 15 thousands died and military personnel doing their duty for a second, but how many snot and screams?
    The question is not why Ivan IV "repressed", the question of what did he achieve with this?
    Quote: timyr
    Better to see Klim Zhukov ...

    Exactly, it is there that the only correct, racially correct position is stated, because everything else is "Russophobia", and in general, why strain the convolutions, read something, think more ... so citizen Timur?

    Citizen Merlin about anti-Semitism is to Shpakovsky. It was he who stated that Lenin was in fact a Blank and 80% of the leadership of the Bolshevik party was non-Russian. And I advise you to read the usual history textbooks about the era of Ivan the Terrible or about the history of France from the time of Louis 13. Maybe you get a little smarter and stop writing nonsense. And what did Ivan the Terrible achieve, maybe Russia fell apart, but no, it seems to exist. And the trouble began 20 years after the death of Ivan the Terrible, that he also planted an atomic bomb under Russia, you are our smart.
    1. +2
      16 November 2016 20: 55
      Quote: timyr
      Citizen Merlin about anti-Semitism is to Shpakovsky.

      Citizen Timur, it was worth pointing out the mistake and you corrected right there ... I praise, praise))))
      Quote: timyr
      And I advise you to read the usual history textbooks about the era of Ivan the Terrible or on the history of France since Louis 13.

      Good advice, reading is actually helpful. I am extremely sorry that you do not follow it and do not read ordinary history textbooks. Why, you didn’t even master this article)))
      Quote: timyr
      Maybe you get a little smarter and stop writing nonsense.

      You are kind of childish, trying to insult me, the right is ridiculous.
      Quote: timyr
      And what did Ivan the Terrible achieve, maybe Russia fell apart, but no, it seems to exist.

      How do you understand? Those. despite all the efforts of Ivan IV the Terrible - Russia did not fall apart? Why don’t you love Ivan 4 so much?
      Quote: timyr
      And the trouble began in 20 years after the death of Ivan the Terrible, that he also planted an atomic bomb under Russia, you are our smart.

      How many pots? Citizen Timur, take the trouble again and carefully read my message and note: I did not write anything about the turmoil or the "atomic bomb" for Russia. Freudian slip of the tongue: lied, lied, and lied the truth?
      PS I do not consider, unlike you, citizen Timur, Ivan the Terrible, responsible for the troubles. I just don’t think that the oprichnina and repressions Ivan Vasilievich achieved a significant strengthening of the role of the nobility, other methods would have been much more effective, in fact you could have read it easily in the article if you had mastered)))
  16. +2
    16 November 2016 20: 01
    Quote: varangian
    5 for that time a lot? author, are you serious?
    considering which rivers of blood flowed at the same time in fragrant Europe

    So it’s true, but it’s how to calculate: 5000 commoners are one thing, and 5000 elitists are still somewhat different. 5000 people, and how much is a percentage of the total composition of one or another group of the country's population? The pyramid of power is not in vain called a pyramid - it is wide below, but tapers to the top, the higher, the narrower and narrower ...
    1. 0
      17 November 2016 10: 20
      Quote: PENZYAC
      Quote: varangian
      5 for that time a lot? author, are you serious?
      considering which rivers of blood flowed at the same time in fragrant Europe

      So it’s true, but it’s how to calculate: 5000 commoners are one thing, and 5000 elitists are still somewhat different. 5000 people, and how much is a percentage of the total composition of one or another group of the country's population? The pyramid of power is not in vain called a pyramid - it is wide below, but tapers to the top, the higher, the narrower and narrower ...

      And how did you calculate in the end? But for comparison with European figures?
  17. +1
    16 November 2016 20: 14
    Quote: kalibr
    Where does the figure 7 million come from? Who counted this?

    Maybe Novodvorskaya? Don't be remembered by night (God forbid, I dream) ...
  18. +3
    16 November 2016 21: 21
    Quote: merlin
    Quote: timyr
    Citizen Merlin about anti-Semitism is to Shpakovsky.

    Citizen Timur, it was worth pointing out the mistake and you corrected right there ... I praise, praise))))
    Quote: timyr
    And I advise you to read the usual history textbooks about the era of Ivan the Terrible or on the history of France since Louis 13.

    Good advice, reading is actually helpful. I am extremely sorry that you do not follow it and do not read ordinary history textbooks. Why, you didn’t even master this article)))
    Quote: timyr
    Maybe you get a little smarter and stop writing nonsense.

    You are kind of childish, trying to insult me, the right is ridiculous.
    Quote: timyr
    And what did Ivan the Terrible achieve, maybe Russia fell apart, but no, it seems to exist.

    How do you understand? Those. despite all the efforts of Ivan IV the Terrible - Russia did not fall apart? Why don’t you love Ivan 4 so much?
    Quote: timyr
    And the trouble began in 20 years after the death of Ivan the Terrible, that he also planted an atomic bomb under Russia, you are our smart.

    How many pots? Citizen Timur, take the trouble again and carefully read my message and note: I did not write anything about the turmoil or the "atomic bomb" for Russia. Freudian slip of the tongue: lied, lied, and lied the truth?
    PS I do not consider, unlike you, citizen Timur, Ivan the Terrible, responsible for the troubles. I just don’t think that the oprichnina and repressions Ivan Vasilievich achieved a significant strengthening of the role of the nobility, other methods would have been much more effective, in fact you could have read it easily in the article if you had mastered)))

    Oh, wei, what a smart citizen Merlin you are. Suspect everyone of anti-Semitism. It follows from your words that Ivan the Terrible was a bad tsar and therefore guilty of all the troubles of Russia. It’s good that you recognized that Ivan the Terrible is not at fault for the trouble. Just about the methods, it’s good to be smart from the perspective of afterlife. And from the position of that time it is interesting how you would carry out reforms when you crush the opposition. I’m afraid when carrying out your methods, Ivan the Terrible would die young. So it means about anti-Sovietism and Russophobia citizen Shpakovsky you agree.
    1. +1
      16 November 2016 21: 53
      Quote: timyr
      Oh, wei, what a smart citizen Merlin you are. Suspect everyone of anti-Semitism.

      No, no, I'm modest by nature, I should not ascribe your merits.
      Quote: timyr
      It follows from your words that Ivan the Terrible was a bad tsar and therefore guilty of all the troubles of Russia.

      Well, maybe if you read in Kazakh, then this is so, but actually I wrote just the exact opposite. However, you, of course, do not follow your advice and do not read ...
      Quote: timyr
      It’s good that you recognized that Ivan the Terrible is not at fault for the trouble.

      Only in your pink dreams, I argued the opposite))))
      Quote: timyr
      Just about the methods, it’s good to be smart from the perspective of afterlife.

      You know, unlike you, Ivan IV the Terrible was an intelligent and faithful person, moreover Orthodox. And do not twist, but killing is a sin, and the king treated this accordingly and still killed. And there is no lasting here and the king had examples of how to cultivate the elite by other methods, but the king used the simplest, unfortunately.
      Quote: timyr
      And from the position of that time it is interesting how you would carry out reforms when you crush the opposition.

      If you, citizen Timur, mastered the school history textbook, you would know that Ivan the Terrible carried out the reforms before the oprichnina.
      Quote: timyr
      I’m afraid when carrying out your methods, Ivan the Terrible would die young.

      Thirty-five years is far from a boy, and not even a young man. And all his truly significant accomplishments, Ivan Vasilievich made precisely to this age, and then the oprichnina began, losing the Livonian War and even burning the Crimean Tatars of Moscow, in short the classic pro .... all polymers ... Would you have mastered the history book and the same would know it)))
      Quote: timyr
      So it means about anti-Sovietism and Russophobia citizen Shpakovsky you agree.

      Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ohhhhhh Shpakovsky, unlike you, loves and knows the history of Russia.
  19. +2
    17 November 2016 09: 30
    -Moscow was burnt ... but then there was the "Battle of the Molodi", which forever weaned the Ottomans and Crimean Tatars from coming to the territory of Russia with the war. -There were raids by some Crimean Tatars on the "outlying lands" of Russia ... but there were no military campaigns to Moscow after the "Molodino battle" ... -And under Ivan the Terrible it was ....
    1. +2
      17 November 2016 10: 20
      Quote: olena
      -Moscow was burnt ... but then there was "Battle of the Molodi"

      There was, nobody argues. In this battle, Moscow once again defended its independence. But it could have been different, because Kurbsky had proposed to Grozny before the Livonian war with Crimea to understand. Peter the first one and a half centuries later did so and turned out to be right.
      Quote: olena
      ... which forever weaned the Ottomans and Crimean Tatars to come to the territory of Russia with the war. -There were separate raids of the Crimean Tatars on the "outlying lands" of Russia ... but there were no military campaigns to Moscow after the "Molodino battle" ...

      But lying ... there were ... and in general in this place it is also appropriate to remember about the "funeral" that the same Peter I stopped paying
  20. +2
    17 November 2016 10: 06
    Three times "Hurray!" We won!
    ... Our path was difficult ...
    They freed their land
    We will always sing glory to you - Terrible!
    1. +1
      17 November 2016 12: 18
      Quote: varangian
      Three times "Hurray!" We won!
      ... Our path was difficult ...
      They freed their land
      We will always sing glory to you - Terrible!

      This is your poem dedicated to Ivan III Vasilievich? After all, he is also "Terrible". He created the state (collecting lands is about him), liberated Russia from the yoke ... well, you remember - standing on the Ugra River ...
      1. +1
        17 November 2016 15: 48
        Well, you think, at least a little and immediately it becomes clear about whom.
        1. 0
          17 November 2016 16: 32
          Quote: varangian
          Well, you think, at least a little and immediately it becomes clear about whom.

          So they would say that you do not know)))
  21. +3
    17 November 2016 11: 54
    The evaluation criterion of a politician-ruler
    can serve: did he leave behind a country in the best
    condition than she was before him. Or at worst.
  22. +2
    17 November 2016 12: 43
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    about the knights here honey, both noble and brave, and in the five of Nevsky almost filled, but thousands of stinks from all sides.

    But everything that you wrote is nonsense! None of the articles on the above topics have this! Especially about "thousand smerds". Ay-ay, juggling is not good! Or is it like this: the end justifies the means? But whatever you write, you will not change the results of the elections to the Duma. And you will not be elected to the Presidium of the Russian Academy of Sciences, nor will you be made head of the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation. So it’s empty trouble for you. Not like you to give assessments to people like me. Sad but true!
    1. +1
      17 November 2016 21: 49
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      about the knights here honey, both noble and brave, and in the five of Nevsky almost filled, but thousands of stinks from all sides.

      Not like you to give ratings to people like me. Sad but true!

      Well, why, we have a democracy, you stand up for it. Therefore, I have the right to give and send an assessment ... so democratically. You strenuously studied the work of VI Lenin, when you were digging a quarry, or splashing a career, forgot how to do it right, but not the essence, including "Dizziness with success"? Or confused, excuse me, this is Stalin, so dearly loved by you. Well, in your library, the historical luminary, this brochure will be found. First edition? Wow! Re-read before bed.
      1. +1
        18 November 2016 12: 01
        The dizziness of success is not a brochure. It was an article in the Pravda newspaper.
        1. +1
          18 November 2016 16: 11
          Quote: kalibr
          The dizziness of success is not a brochure. It was an article in the Pravda newspaper.

          What are you saying? So interesting, now I will know. Didn't this article come out as a separate edition? Do not know? You studied poorly, Vyacheslav. Article March 2, 1930 in Pravda, a separate edition of the brochure March 4, 1930 Learn materiel.
          1. 0
            18 November 2016 18: 49
            It may very well be so, and probably even so. But Pravda is enough for me. I can't keep all the waste paper at home from the days of the old. You never know what I have that you do not have.
            1. +1
              19 November 2016 16: 41
              Quote: kalibr
              It may very well be so, and probably even so. But Pravda is enough for me. I can't keep all the waste paper at home from the days of the old. You never know what I have that you do not have.

              Do I need it? I'm not a "doctor candidate". By the way, this is not "waste paper", you vulgar Vyacheslav, these are the primary sources. Speaking of home, there are also nests, haha.
  23. +1
    17 November 2016 21: 38
    АВТОР
    But there are people who are clearly obsessed with the "threat of the West of Russia." And very similar to Lieutenant Rzhevsky from the Hussar Ballad: “This one also did not read the novel! Read it for sure, barman! ”
    Yes. We have been here for 1000 years, or maybe more with Western freaks, we gape, then the Germans, then the Poles, then the Swedes, the French, then the rotten Angles shit under our fence, so that it would fall over. Yesterday, we were dismantled for restructuring into bolts, and the writer is from a tree of tears and teaches that from the west there is one "Sharman" and ambrosia. Is he adequate?
    1. +1
      18 November 2016 12: 04
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      We have been here for 1000 years,

      Are you such a long-liver? However, yes, human stupidity is indestructible!
      1. +1
        19 November 2016 16: 46
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        We have been here for 1000 years,

        Are you such a long-liver? However, yes, human stupidity is indestructible!

        Yes. Dad told me, there is a grandfather .. Then they turned on the TV .. And you apologize from P..da on a sled, with a silver spoon on his cheek? Well, live on the cheek, it is worthy and honorable.
  24. +2
    17 November 2016 22: 01
    АВТОР
    Meanwhile, the identity of Ivan the Terrible causes controversy in society only because society is simply too lazy to study all this.
    Author, are you a liberal? Only liberals allow themselves to spit on people from the stands, in studios and the media. Declare it honestly and all decent people will shy away from your publications, because they will know what they will find there.
    Ah, no penises will be lost, it’s not possible, sir, but how can it be, sir?
  25. +2
    17 November 2016 22: 03
    In Kansk, for example, an enthusiast even erected a monument to him in the form of ... a bloodied stake.
    Vyacheslav, admit your work?
  26. +1
    17 November 2016 22: 12
    "King, just king!"
    Just a joke, just a sweet, innocent joke! But millions watched the film and the frame does not match the replica.
    Vyacheslav, you will need to answer for the bazaar. Such is how you rock the situation and push the country into a civil war and not the fact that your legs will save everyone.
    This is true from another opera, but Ulyukaev passed, "the process has begun" (greetings from MC)
  27. +1
    17 November 2016 22: 28
    АВТОР
    By the way, such a Soviet historian as Mikhail Pokrovsky,
    We remember, we remember, an authoritative comrade, the initiator of the "Academic case", according to him the unknown S.F. Platonov, E.V. Tarle, N.P. Likhachev and so on were convicted. Who knows.
    Author, wash your hands before eating.
    1. +1
      18 November 2016 11: 58
      I've already written everything to you. You are nothing and no one and nowhere. Even a drunken homeless person sitting in a dirty puddle can express his opinion in a democratic country. This will not add value to his opinion. You don’t give me +, but the rating is growing and very quickly. So "the people are happy." So it’s not necessary for the people. And I already wrote to you: do not forget for whom the people voted. And Ulyukaev ... there he is dear, do not steal, do not idle, manage economically. This is what Lenin wrote in the Next Problems ...
      1. +1
        18 November 2016 13: 13
        Of those present above all, Alexey Bogomazov and Evgeny Nikolaevich have a rating.
        1. +2
          18 November 2016 14: 31
          Dmitry, good afternoon! hi This fascinating show has been going on for several weeks. We have problematic characters - Kolchak, Ivan the Terrible, there, with a stretch, you can take Joseph Stalin. What the discussion thread turns into, you saw.
          1. +1
            18 November 2016 14: 51
            Hello, Nikolai! Remember how we were indignant about the Finn. I don’t participate about Kolchak, I often go there for work, in that territory, in fact, in the coming days. It’s unpleasant. Everyone says that. In general, I love this street. In that area. it used to be quiet, the architecture is in "modern" style, there is a huge mosaic nearby!
            Well, Ivan the Terrible always respected me.
            From all my heart to you --- good luck in implementing your plans!
            1. +3
              18 November 2016 15: 07
              Quote: Reptiloid
              Ivan the Terrible always respected me.

              A strong leader is a strong power.
            2. +1
              18 November 2016 17: 52
              Thank you! drinks have a good weekend!
        2. +1
          18 November 2016 19: 01
          Very happy for them, Dmitry. Only they don’t write books, but I’m writing and so many people read them. And if I don’t write about something myself, I advise others where to get something they need and interesting. So you took my advice, right? But did these two advise you that I advised you and from what you undoubtedly began to know much more Murzik?
      2. +1
        19 November 2016 11: 19
        Sorry, intervened. Vyacheslav Olegovich, your rating is 15, Dmitry has 45. So the people are not voting for you.
        1. +1
          19 November 2016 20: 39
          Evgeny Nikolaevich, well, it’s impossible that way ... I did not mean this rating, but the general one. And for some reason he is growing continuously. And fast. However, these are all games, with semi-children. I'm more interested in RSCI and HIRS ratings. These are citation ratings of scientific papers, not popular ones, like here. Ask what it is.
          1. +1
            19 November 2016 22: 37
            I’m somehow puzzled. Well, far from all people should write books. Someone writes comments and this benefits others, their country. It’s good that there are such people on this site.
            I'm puzzled, because you gave me advice, like many others, in your works. As I said earlier, about a year ago I bought 2 of your books. School books. I read with pleasure. AFTER that I decided that there was nothing to sit in the sandbox and stopped reading your stories about knights, castles and others. As it is written in another article about PR --- plunge a person into childhood and "" "do with him what you want." This is advice , but you didn't know ... ... On the other hand, your advice can be very simple, like how to fix a burned-out incandescent lamp at home ... Well, then, about poetry, you tell me nothing advised ..... Before my book, the time has not come yet.
            But what do I know? The more I read, look, listen, the more I understand that there is not enough knowledge. Something like that.
            1. 0
              21 November 2016 22: 13
              "I know that I know nothing". Socrates

              As for poetry ... Books of poetry at publishers are going badly. Even talented ...
              The trend is this.
          2. +1
            20 November 2016 05: 07
            Quote: kalibr
            I'm more interested in RSCI and HIRS ratings

            But for me, these indices mean nothing. How often are your quotes at least Russian proverbs and sayings. You can beat the Einstein index, but that does not mean that you are above it.
            According to V. Imaev, the pursuit of high scientometric indicators as the main motivational component of the work leads to the development of imitation science with emasculation of its fundamental and applied content.
            1. 0
              21 November 2016 22: 19
              The fact that you do not see the electric current does not mean that there is no electric current, right? Also with RSCI and HIRSH, this is an indicator of quality. Nobody refers to bad work, it's like getting yourself dirty in fuel oil. You won't wash yourself afterwards. That is, "sturgeon of the first freshness is the second". I prefer fresh over rotten.
              Imayev rightly says, but ... in addition to scientometric indicators, there are also real indicators.
  28. +1
    18 November 2016 07: 20
    Thanks, good article.
  29. +1
    18 November 2016 23: 10
    In general, it’s somehow worthless to condemn the former serf in the comments of the kings of the anointed. They themselves would have sat on the throne, but would have shown their poor mind in the affairs of the sovereigns. He is a king, and so is a king, unlike a serf dog, a stink of miserable.
    1. 0
      20 November 2016 10: 00
      Just as your words can be interpreted this way and that, so the above proverb "" dogs bark, the caravan goes "" can also be done in two ways.
  30. 0
    5 February 2017 09: 05
    Quote: antivirus
    I believe that EBN wanted good for their country.
    You probably wanted to write --- YOUR FAMILY?

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