AK vs AR. Part II

196
AK vs AR. Part II


Logically, it would be worth starting with a discussion of the merits and demerits of the Soviet 5.45 X39 and the American 5.56 XX45 cartridges, but this is a separate topic, therefore I will limit myself to a statement of fact. Domestic weaker in power when departing from the trunk, but this is not its disadvantage. On the contrary, less power - less recoil weapons, higher accuracy when shooting bursts, while on the penetration of our cartridge still remains inaccessible neither for American nor for European designers.



Store aspect

Unlike the M16 rifle itself, which is saturated with fine details, its store is surprised by the simplicity of its shape to such an extent that in a hurry it can be inserted into the weapon upside down (see the thesis against the fool in the first part).

The absence of pads reinforcing the bends of the M16 store is striking, although they are in AK and sturmgever stores. The non-reinforced bend is more sensitive to mechanical stress, and therefore, due to its deformation, the stability of the cartridge supply line into the chamber will not be ensured.



Casket just opens. These stores were to be disposable and delivered in plastic packaging. The fighter had to tear off this package (with his teeth?) And throw it away (all or in part) after shooting the store. The principle that works perfectly for disposable tableware did not suit the American customer. Disposable stores did not become, but in terms of changing the design, nothing happened. Of course, this did not slow down affecting reliability.

The walls of the M16 magazine are reinforced with two vertical stamped stiffeners, which, moreover, serve to reduce the friction of the cartridges against the walls of the magazine. That's just the stiffness that they must provide is not enough for reliable operation.

Here is a diagram of the distribution of forces inside a regular store:



The force of the supply spring passes through one vertical row of cartridges. On the one hand, it should be sufficient to raise its entire mass. On the other hand, a too powerful spring will make the equipment more difficult, and the upper cartridge will be pressed so tightly against the bend that the overrun of the bolt may not be enough to reliably feed it from the store to the chamber.

Add entropy - let's step on the store foot. Its walls will come together, between the cartridges of one vertical row there will be gaps:



The force of the supply spring will be fed to the upper cartridge through one tangential, there will be a force pressing on the walls of the store. Depending on the degree and quality of contamination (we will add more entropy), a component will appear between the cartridge and the magazine body due to friction, which is directed against the spring supply effort.

In order for the cartridges to disperse, it suffices to offset the side walls or sticking debris on them by about 1 mm. That is, a slight result will be obtained for a minor system change.

Where it leads? Even if the cartridges are not stuck, and for this you need to really try to fill the store with dirt or dust, the feed of the cartridge to the grinding line will slow down. As a result, the bolt at roll forward simply does not have time to seize the next cartridge, because it has not yet risen to the level of supply.

Plastic stores have better resilience, so they will simply regain their shape or break if they are pressed down hard. But when a lot of dirt gets inside, the same effect will occur. Such a disaster is equally probable for the stores of both automata. But let's look at their design inside. In M16, the retractable slide slides over the upper chuck of the magazine. In AK, the shutter, when rolled back with the rammer, presses it, turning the whole row down:



At the same time, dirt and debris are shaken off, reducing the probability of its critical accumulation at one point, which increases the reliability of the store operation by an order of magnitude.

We fasten shop

You say “ergonomics”, “ergonomics”. Let's fasten the store to the Kalashnikov. For this you need to make two movements. Catch the front edge of the receiving window with the hook of the magazine and turn it until the latch engages.

Actuation of the latch will not only be audible, but also perceptibly tactile. “Chock!” - as Mikhail Timofeevich said. This is ensured by a sufficiently strong spring latch and its large stroke. The store itself works as a lever, so it does not require much effort to trigger. Such a movement is the same for any situations when working with a machine and for users of any level. An athlete, special forces, a simple infantryman or a child with a toy will make this movement exactly the same.

And now we will attach the store to the machine Stoner. Unlike AK, in two movements will not work. And all the more so. Although, at first glance, this is exactly how it should be. For this you need, without looking, to get into the mine window with a store, that is, precisely combine the outer perimeter of the store and the inner receiving window. Such accuracy is achieved by hard training in situations that are far from stressful. In life, you have to reload the weapon and sitting and lying down and sideways, and here the skills do not help. Therefore, the entrance to the mine is made not at a right angle, but with a small bevel. This increases the size of the receiving window, makes it easier for the corner of the store to get into it, but adds another movement - a turn to the perpendicular, so that the store starts its movement in the mine.



Thus, the first action is equivalent to the manipulation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. Well, they caught the window, turned the store around, pushed it into the mine. Everything? No, "everything" is just beginning. Latch shop very sopliv along the length of operation - only two millimeters.

It works in a stamped hole in the wall of the store through which it leaks. entropy mud.

If this dirt did not fall into the store, and, say, dried out or appeared in the form of sliver or pebble, the latch will not fix anything. There is no lever to push it inside the store! Will feel the shooter triggering a latch - a question. But he also has gloves on his hands so that he doesn't rub his hands on Picatinny's trims. On the other hand, the latch spring was too strong. Then, in order for the latch to work, another force must act to meet the movement of the store in the mine. In its quality acts only the weight of the machine. If it is not enough, the problem can be solved only by accelerating the store. So the characteristic slap with the palm of the hand is crowning the process of joining it, knocking the weapon that was already gone from the line of sight. Hi Schmeisser.



Oddly enough, the location of the latch button on one side of the weapon does not cause inconvenience. Although it increases the likelihood of accidental release of the store.

Gate lag

Fastened shop, what's next? Right - slide lag. To do this, you need to hit its button with your thumb or index finger, depending on which hand the magazine is fastened to. In reality, this is often done differently. It suffices once in a stressful situation this latch does not work or do not get into it with your finger, and until the end of your life you will turn it off with the clap of the palm of your left hand, knocking the weapon off the aiming line, which has already gone after the cotton from the bottom of the store.



With all these manipulations, we will not forget that the center of gravity of the weapon is in front of the right hand, forcing it to additionally strain, and the control of the position of the weapon on the line of sight in the process of changing the store remains possible only in the refined conditions of exemplary performances.

In AK, as you know, there are no delays. Therefore, the problem of removing the shutter from the delay by pressing a button or by clapping the palm on it does not exist; instead, the usual juggling of the shutter occurs. For energy such a movement is more expensive than the clap of the palm, it is indisputable. But if you do it with your right hand, with your left hand holding the grip on your forearm, you can easily control its position on the aiming line. The center of gravity will be between the two points of support - the forearm and the butt of the butt, and will not additionally strain the hand holding the machine on the weight. If you fasten the store in an Orthodox manner, with your right hand, then her brush will be next to the cocking handle. Further movement after cocking the arm will be where it needs to be - at the handle of the weapon. Thus, the slide lag M16 does not give any decisive advantages over its absence in the AK.

Separately, it should be said about the manner of reloading AK left hand. Anyway, this topic will rise in the discussions of the article. I do not mind, rather for.

You need to be able to recharge it not only with any hand, but also with your foot, and first of all with your head. I am against this manner being imposed as obligatory in the training system, which we now often observe. Fixing an unnatural manner as a skill can be costly to practice.

The article used a photograph from the article: Andrey Fischev, The Main Commandment, the magazine "Kalashnikov" № 7, 2006.
With respect to other images, the author is not aware of the limitations of their use.


To be continued ...
196 comments
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  1. +16
    14 November 2016 07: 47
    Definitely - PLUS !!! drinks
    1. +24
      14 November 2016 18: 24
      Cool. I never thought from this side. Even the store is not easy. No wonder they say: "the devil is in the details." Again, it is not in vain that they say: "complicate is simple, simplify is difficult." And the Americans, when they talk about our weapons, only repeat that they are "simple and cheap as an ax." They do not understand that much more intelligence has been invested in weapons such as the T-34 than in their "comfortable and advanced" tanks. That is why it became the "Weapon of Victory". Try to do something that is both reliable and efficient and cheap. Here you break your whole brain, and even talent is needed.
      1. 0
        April 22 2017 14: 12
        God is in the details, and the Devil is in the details! wink
    2. +5
      15 November 2016 01: 03
      Quote: bouncyhunter
      Definitely - PLUS !!!


      The article is just the singing of the diframs to AKM.

      But this is true!

      He's the best!

      And I’m proud that in my safe there is a shielded, but real AKM of 1974.

      AKM IS OUR EVERYTHING!
      1. jjj
        +1
        15 November 2016 10: 40
        So AKM or AK-74M? And what year?
        1. 0
          24 October 2017 16: 15
          the author responded by comparing 5,45 caliber cartridges
  2. +10
    14 November 2016 07: 50
    AK is the best of all time, before the advent of laser-masers-blasters!
  3. +8
    14 November 2016 07: 53
    So the crowning process of its accession is crowned by a characteristic slap with the palm from below, knocking down an already gone weapon from the aiming line

    It is enough once in a stressful situation this latch does not work or not hit it with your finger, and until the end of your life you will turn it off with the clap of the palm of your left hand, knocking down the weapon from the aiming line, which already left after popping in the store from below.

    The author suggests aiming at the enemy while reloading weapons ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!! belay
    1. +42
      14 November 2016 08: 22
      Quote: Penzuck
      The author suggests aiming at the enemy while reloading weapons ??? !!!

      uh ... actually, this is a common and rather important requirement for a weapon - the ability to reload without moving the barrel out of the line of sight. This shortens the time to re-fire after reloading. Or, as they say, in a simple way: "Talk less with the barrel, young fellow!"
      1. +3
        14 November 2016 08: 32
        Quote: Urfin
        "Talk less with your barrel, you little fellow!"


        I, of course, have no experience with a REAL prototype M16, but my airsoft clone "emki" weighs as the original and, in principle, requires similar manipulations to reload and prepare for battle. I admit that this is all done for the entourage, BUT! After a year of training and about two or three dozen matches, I learned not only to hit the receiver shaft with a magazine without looking, but also not to lose at least the general direction of fire. but again - the conditions are far from fighting (although my hands are still shaking from nerves) and we can say that this is my IMHO.
        1. 0
          12 December 2016 09: 33
          After a year of training and about two to three dozen matches

          So you answered your previous question. With AK, you would have mastered the same thing in a few workouts.
    2. +3
      14 November 2016 08: 48
      Quote: Penzuck
      So the crowning process of its accession is crowned by a characteristic slap with the palm from below, knocking down an already gone weapon from the aiming line

      It is enough once in a stressful situation this latch does not work or not hit it with your finger, and until the end of your life you will turn it off with the clap of the palm of your left hand, knocking down the weapon from the aiming line, which already left after popping in the store from below.

      The author suggests aiming at the enemy while reloading weapons ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!! belay


      do not you see the difference between the concepts of "aim" and "line of sight"? ... when reloading the AR-15, you will not only lose the line of sight, you will lose the enemy himself from the line of sight, tk. you will look at your rifle like those soldiers in the picture ...
      1. 0
        14 November 2016 10: 06
        Quote: Krilion
        don't you see the difference between aiming and aiming?

        We do not confuse, we are terribly interested ...
        Quote: Krilion
        you’ll not lose the line of sight, you’ll lose the enemy from the line of sight, because you’ll look at your rifle like those soldiers in the picture ...

        That is, during reloading the AK you will remain in your position under enemy fire? And just keep firing right away?
        1. +9
          14 November 2016 18: 13
          In combat conditions, much more fire is fought to suppress rather than defeat. Read the statistics on how many rounds are spent on one killed enemy. Therefore, the question is posed in a different way: will the enemy have time to stick his head out and open fire at you while you reload. The less time is spent on it, the better, but about the fact that during reloading it is much better if you do not look away from the enemy (well, or his likely location), i.e. from the line of sight, they said here already.
        2. +1
          14 November 2016 23: 13
          There are situations when the store is being changed, but there is still a cartridge in the chamber. And here it is just important not to lose the line of sight. It must also be understood that the described situation often occurs when the shooter is sitting (from the knee) or standing.
          Then you still have the opportunity to not even fasten the magazine to fire a shot towards the enemy aiming at the barrel (the same shot for luck and suppression).
    3. +1
      14 November 2016 08: 50
      Perhaps this refers to the return time to the aiming line after reloading
  4. +12
    14 November 2016 08: 45
    Article plus. But I would like to hear from qualified specialists one more thing. What were the reasons for the appearance of AK, what place was given to him by tactics, and how his role changed over time. And the same thing - for the USA with their M-16. And it’s just speculation, but this story can explain a lot in the question of why the AK turned out so, and the M-16 is different. Those. the role and place in the OSH units, and not in isolation from them.

    As I see it, initially the AK was created as a support weapon for the squad in addition to the SCS. SKS - accuracy and range, and AK - fire density. It turns out that the AK was supposed to become a "distributed" machine gun and replace the light machine gun if it was suppressed, or while it was reloading. And SKS - single fire on accuracy, and it was SKS that was supposed to be the main personal weapon of the soldier. Those. conceptually (and not constructively) AK is a development of Sturmhever's idea. But then, gradually AK became a weapon for all occasions, tk. two types of personal weapons in the department turned out to be too much, and the SKS was abandoned. (By the way, also why - have they finally decided that accurate range shooting is not in demand?). And they came to an almost complete copy of the German system with a single PC machine gun, and its support distributed across the AK department.

    In the USA, the opposite is true - M16 is the successor of M14, i.e. the emphasis was initially on other performance characteristics - accuracy, accuracy over long range. Therefore, they realized that this was not enough and sawed M249, because M16 apparently did not give the desired density of fire. And as a result - they completely abandoned the M16 by switching to the M4, which has already become AK in size.

    It looks like different concepts underlie the M16 and AK. AK - fire density, compactness, M16 - range, accuracy. At the same time, AK gradually migrated in the direction of improving accuracy (switching to 5,45), and M16 - in the direction of compactness at the expense of range (M4).
    1. +4
      14 November 2016 12: 43
      The charter says that combined arms shooting is conducted at a distance of 500 meters, AK 74 m, at this distance it has an excess of about 70 cm, above the STP, that is, targets up to 500 m are in the affected area if the shooter with P5 scope aims at the center of the target, that is, a growth target from the groin to the head, if the battle is closer to 300 m, then with the P3 sight, exceeding 300 meters by 18 meters, it is quite possible to fire at head targets, the commander must be promptly instructed to change the sights.
      Dovetail is for sights, I believe that even without AK74m modernization, it can cope with its tasks.
    2. 0
      14 November 2016 15: 47
      The appearance of the M4 automatic rifle (a functional analogue of the AK-74) in the United States Army was associated with the nature of combat clashes in recent local wars - the use of infantry exclusively for clearing settlements and greenery, i.e. where the battle is carried out shortly and where the swivel of the weapon on the target is important, but range is not needed.

      However, the expanding use of bulletproof bulletproof vests (see military operations in Syria and Iraq) that withstand 10 / 5,45 mm caliber armor-piercing bullets from 5,56 meters makes the transition to high-pulse cartridges and automatic rifles relevant.
      1. 0
        14 November 2016 20: 11
        Quote: Operator
        The appearance of the M4 automatic carbine (AK-74 functional analogue) in the US Army

        M4 is not an analogue of the AK-74. The AK-74 is a weapon of the FAW category, and the M4 is a weapon of the AW category. Those. M4 rate of fire is reduced relative to the AK-74 and M16. Yes, and on DEP it is a little not a full thing (in comparison with the M16, of course, the AK-74 is far from M4).
        It seems that in the near future, the M4 will be replaced by an army analogue of the Colt Expanse M4. What it will be called, I do not know.
        1. +1
          18 November 2016 08: 30
          For you, dear, I personally inform you that the rate of fire of the M4 and AK 74 is approximately the same.
          1. 0
            18 November 2016 11: 06
            Quote: Dinko
            For you, dear, I personally inform you that the rate of fire of the M4 and AK 74 is approximately the same.

            I don’t need to tell such nonsense. Rate of AK-74 is at the level of M16. At M4 it is lower.
            1. +1
              19 November 2016 07: 05
              Yes, you yourself are nonsense!
        2. +1
          20 November 2016 02: 14
          What are you talking about? Why are these coined terms? How do you know what is full and what is not. You're just a theorist. Boring, a lot and nothing. This applies to most of your comments on small arms.
          1. +2
            10 December 2016 13: 11
            Do not appreciate the clowning talents of this miracle bell! laughing

            Have you seen his other comments with his obsessions? What is Tommy Gun in the same class with the M-16 and its ancestor?
            What could be fired from the PPSh no further than 35 meters, and farther from the tommy gun than from the Mosin rifle?
            That the famous Mauser pistol is suitable only for shooting rabbits, for which it is intended?
            That carbines became possible only after the appearance of the special M-1Carabine carbine cartridge, and everything that was called carbines earlier was called so solely due to illiteracy, did you forget about it, the Great Guru, to ask advice?
            What T-34 - not a cruising tank, but an infantry?
            And this is far from all of his repertoire! wassat

            In general, people. Who can think how, and personally I am extremely grateful to the treating psychiatrist for this user for the fact that he sometimes releases him from our strict-regime chamber good lol
      2. +1
        18 November 2016 08: 24
        I wonder where you got info about the exposure of bulletproof vests from 10 meters of armor-piercing bullet? In my opinion, this is nonsense respected.
      3. +2
        20 November 2016 13: 18
        And where exactly did you see bulletproof vests of this class in Syria and Iraq, I didn’t see something point blank, the mass of video battles is an example, the minimum equipment and fights, the battles in urban buildings do not allow you to carry heavy weight, this is physically difficult, maneuverability and more! The main weapon in these conflicts is the whole AK family of 7.62 calibers, with rare exceptions 5.45-5.56, but this is not because the bulletproof vests are to blame, the conditions in which they are used and the financial component are to blame, it’s easier to buy AK 7.62, since they produce a lot, something is old, the ammunition is just an ocean, of different manufacturers and quality! And finally, have you ever worn a high-class bulletproof vest, calculated on its mass, temperature, and this is far from + 25, I will tell you, after a day of wearing it you yourself will want to take it off and not wear it. And finally, stop hoping for body armor, the percentage that it will save your life is not great, and sometimes insignificant .......
    3. 0
      14 November 2016 22: 23
      Quote: Alex_59
      But this story can explain a lot in the question of why the AK turned out so, and the M-16 is different.

      And what is especially to explain?
      To replace the post-war SMG Thompson (on the cartridge .45 ACP + R), the Americans made the M16A1. Where they were able to eliminate the main jamb of Thompson, the firing difficulty is further than 200 m.
      After her field tests, impressed with the result, the United States decided to finalize the M16A1, replacing it not only with Thompson's SMG, but also with the M14. For this, the M16 was slightly strengthened, the cartridge power was increased, and another bullet was used. Those. used a slightly different cartridge, fitting the weapon under it. As a result, M16A2 appeared.
      In the USSR, the test results of the M16A1 were also impressed. And they began to make weapons like. But they decided not to change the "legendary mechanism". nothing suitable has been developed. Or it was, but just decided not to change. It doesn't matter, the fact itself is important.
      Because a weapon of power similar to M16A1 had a disgusting accuracy of automatic fire, this accuracy was improved by attenuation of the cartridge. And, due to this, a decrease in the caliber and weight of the bullet. So it turned out 5,45x39 mm dochopatron. And only on the cartridge of such power it was possible to achieve a more or less acceptable accuracy.
      Accuracy, of course, is good. Especially for automatic weapons. But as a result of all these manipulations, the AK-74 fell out of the class of automatic army rifles. Dropping into the class of automatic assault rifles. Those. weapons are not mass army, but special, for special operations.
      That's the whole story.
      Quote: Alex_59
      originally created AK

      Do not confuse the AK and AK-74. because it is also a weapon of different classes. If the AK-74, this is an automatic assault rifle, then AK, this is a self-loading assault rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire.
      Since AK, this is a conceptual ape with MP43 and StG44, it makes sense to consider them. This weapon was intended as a PP with advanced functions for panzergrenadiers (tank landing). First, they made the most powerful AS, which at the same time retained the ability to conduct more or less heap automatic fire at a standard AS range of 100 m. And then what was left over was used to conduct a single fire. There is little left, 3/4 of the norm for a normal army main non-automatic weapon. And God bless him, panzergrenadiers, they are not foot soldiers.
      A little later, such weakened army rifles received their own name, assault rifles.
      Who in the USSR came up with the idea to equip all infantrymen with such "weapons" is difficult to say. But thoughts about a brain disorder of the author of this idea are not just baseless assumptions.
      Of course, not a single army of any normal country was armed with such "weapons". And since the 70s of the last century, it gradually lost it and the SA. And thank God.
      Quote: Alex_59
      M16 heiress M14

      M16A1 the heiress of the post-war SMG Thompson on the cartridge .45 ACP + R. And M16A2, this is a little reinforced M16A1.
      None of them have any relation to M14. M14 was excessively powerful for separation, so it was replaced with a more suitable weapon.
      Quote: Alex_59
      And as a result - they abandoned M16 altogether by switching to M4,

      They didn’t even think of doing so.
      Quote: Alex_59
      At the same time, AK gradually migrated towards improving accuracy (transition to 5,45)

      Increase the density of aimed fire. A self-loading assault rifle (at a range of fire further than 100 m) was replaced with an automatic assault rifle.
      Quote: Alex_59
      and M16 - towards compactness to the detriment of range (M4).

      M4 has not replaced M16. M4 is a weapon for special operations. Not the main army.
      1. +6
        15 November 2016 07: 03
        Quote: rjxtufh
        M4 has not replaced M16. M4 is a weapon for special operations. Not the main army.

        M4 completely replaced the M16 in US combined arms. Read the 2011 year’s Heavy Brigade Combat Team (HBCT) organizational structure in English sources. The brigade is supposed to have 3942 M4 and zero M16.

        The USSR initially guessed with TTX AK that 47, that 74. M16 has unnecessary redundant accuracy in real conditions, unattainable and at the same time exorbitant dimensions. It is generally impossible to equip artillery calculations and crews of combat vehicles with her, and in the infantry she doesn’t need excellent shooting data, she cannot shoot further than 300 meters, and not because it is technically impossible, but because in 90% of cases the target at such a range is extremely difficult to detect etc. AK is less accurate, but its accuracy is enough at all real combat distances, but at the same time it is compact and more convenient to use in tight conditions, for example, in a city. And at the same time, they can also equip group weapons calculations, etc. The piercing action of the M885 cartridge bullet when firing from the M16 is approximately equal to the piercing action of the 7Н24 from AK-74. But the same M885 when shooting from M4 is already worse than 7Н24. At the same time, a new cartridge 74Н7 is created for AK-39 whose breakdown action is an order of magnitude higher.
        1. jjj
          0
          15 November 2016 10: 50
          When a Kalashnikov assault rifle is pointed at you at arm's length, you can take the barrel with your right hand and hit the magazine latch with your right foot towards you and help the store exit the receiver, then, raising your leg, press the shutter lever to remove it cartridge from the barrel. Thus, the enemy is disarmed.
          Question to the author: what manipulations should be done with an American rifle?
          1. +24
            15 November 2016 12: 13
            "and with your right foot hit the magazine latch towards you and help
            store out of the receiver, then, raising his leg, press it on the shutter lever,
            to remove the cartridge from the barrel "////

            And with the left foot you can simultaneously hit the enemy in the temple. In a jump.
            Thus, saving ammo, you can advance along the battlefield, gradually neutralizing the enemy fighters ... laughing
          2. +4
            18 November 2016 08: 46
            Yeah, and with your left foot to scratch yourself behind the ear)) Well, just like in the movies))
          3. +2
            20 November 2016 02: 17
            Boy! This trick will work if your friend’s discharged assault rifle is aimed at you at a window dress!
          4. +1
            9 January 2017 15: 21
            Neighing.
            Find such an idiot who, having a weapon in his hands, is suitable or lets go in 2 steps :)
        2. +1
          15 November 2016 12: 23
          Quote: Alex_59
          USSR initially guessed with TTX AK, that 47, that 74

          Well yes. From the point of view of the mobilization resource, the best trunk is difficult to come up with. But this did not abolish the demand, albeit limited, for PP and automatic rifles.
        3. 0
          15 November 2016 13: 37
          Quote: Alex_59
          Read the 2011 Heavy Brigade Combat Team (HBCT) organizational structure in English sources.

          1. Heavy Brigade Combat Team in the US Army only 10. A couple of divisions, at our expense. How can one draw a conclusion about "the entire American army" on the basis of such an insignificant part?
          2. Since 2011, a lot of water has flowed. Including was a reorganization of 2013
          Quote: Alex_59
          The USSR initially guessed with TTX AK that 47, 74.

          Nonsense, of course. How can you "guess" that izgtovis instead of full-fledged army assault (weakened army) rifles?
          Quote: Alex_59
          M16 has unnecessary excessive accuracy

          You will tell your mother-in-law about the "excess salary". When your salary is cut.
          Quote: Alex_59
          and at the same time exorbitant dimensions

          Excessive? Why is it all of a sudden? No more SCS. Who and when called the SCS dimensions "exorbitant"?
          Quote: Alex_59
          shooting farther than 300 meters from it will not work, and not because it is technically impossible, but because in 90% of cases the target at such a range is extremely difficult to detect, etc.

          Honor at what range the combined arms battle begins.
          Quote: Alex_59
          but at the same time it is compact and more convenient to use in tight conditions, for example, in a city.

          Battles now take place only in cities?
          In the cities are mainly special operations. By forces of special forces, not the army.
          Quote: Alex_59
          The punching effect of the bullet of the M885 cartridge when firing from M16 is approximately equal to the punching action of 7N24 from AK-74.

          Yeah. The tradition is fresh. Especially considering that the penetrating power of the M16 bullet at a distance of 400 m is 1/6 more. Due to what is the "approximately the same" penetration? Or is it VERY about the same?
          Quote: Alex_59
          At the same time, a new cartridge 74N7 is created for AK-39; its breakdown effect is an order of magnitude higher.

          An order of magnitude, it's 10 times. Such a cartridge will always be created. But it will not be created.
          1. +4
            15 November 2016 13: 48
            Quote: rjxtufh
            1. Heavy Brigade Combat Team in the US Army only 10. A couple of divisions, at our expense. How can one draw a conclusion about "the entire American army" on the basis of such an insignificant part?

            I cited HBCT as an example of the most powerful structure. If you are very, very interested in this question, study the OS of Infantry Brigade Combat Team or Styker Brigade Combat Team. Everywhere only M4, no M16. This is a fact, you are just confused.
            Quote: rjxtufh
            2. Since 2011, a lot of water has flowed. Including was a reorganization of 2013

            M16 - not returned! Can you imagine? Left M4. And the most obvious difference was the transition of brigades to a three-battalion squad instead of two battalions in the state of 2011 of the year. It is in this state (3 battalion) that there are 3942 carbine M4 and not a single M16.

            The rest is too lazy to comment.
            1. 0
              15 November 2016 19: 12
              Quote: Alex_59
              Explore the Infantry Brigade Combat Team or Styker Brigade Combat Team OSR. Everywhere only M4, no M16. This is a fact, you are just confused.

              I didn’t think so. NEVER M4A1 will not replace M16A2 (and its analogues). Just because it's a different weapon.
              And I VERY recommend that you study the question of how weapons for special operations differ from the main army weapons.
              And what you are saying is bullshit. It is approximately equivalent to declaring that the Russian Armed Forces instead of the AK-74 are massively switching to AKSU. Those. this cannot be, because it can never be. How would you not assure us of this.
              Quote: Alex_59
              The rest is too lazy to comment.

              Yes Yes. And who doubts?
              1. 0
                20 November 2016 02: 18
                I skip without reading.
            2. 0
              22 November 2016 09: 05
              Quote: Alex_59
              The rest is too lazy to comment.

              Do not tag the beads in front of the pigs wink Yes hi
        4. 0
          18 November 2016 08: 32
          The 7n39 cartridge was adopted in 2013 as an increased penetration cartridge, together with the 7n40 increased accuracy cartridge.
      2. 0
        12 December 2016 09: 50
        Laughed merrily! Every line can be sent to "On purpose." I see no reason to comment
      3. 0
        19 December 2016 18: 52
        Everything is nonsense! From the beginning to the end.
    4. +4
      15 November 2016 16: 46
      Quite the contrary, the AK was adopted with the aim of increasing the density of fire on the battlefield, and SCS were usually used for calculating guns and mortars, since there was no direct collision with the enemy, just as guards and security functions were performed with rifles and carbines! He could not replace the AK machine gun and did not try, for this there was a RPD, later a PKK and a PC! So in the motorized rifle department there were 1 PKK and 1 PC per platoon, there could be 1 PC per compartment, this was already determined by the commander, by the nature of the base. By the way, I consider the PKK to be the most interesting instance, accuracy, accuracy, range, such a compromise!
  5. +5
    14 November 2016 08: 47
    Shown is a military point of view on actions with weapons, and not a sports point of view, as it was fashionable in recent years. The pursuit of visible or even perceived advantages of the Western approach to small arms development has led to a strong bias towards external details. The most obvious example is the latest version of the AK-12. It is very different even from last year, just in the direction of simplification. And all the chips a la "import" are gone. Something was removed in vain, but this did not affect the real combat effectiveness.
    Even foreign specialists admit that the process of reloading, changing the store and aiming in time for the AK and the AR-15 is almost the same. The network is full of videos where it is graphically shown.
    1. +3
      14 November 2016 17: 20
      Quote: erased

      Even foreign specialists admit that the process of reloading, changing the store and aiming in time for the AK and the AR-15 is almost the same. The network is full of videos where it is graphically shown.

      In changing the AR-15 magazine, there is no need to first disconnect the magazine as an AK with your left hand.
      On the AR, it is disconnected with the index finger of the right (holding weapon) hand, at this time the left hand removes the equipped magazine from the pouch. This saves 1 second minimum.
      1. +2
        14 November 2016 17: 42
        And why, in fact, disconnect the AK store with your left hand? For 34 years of service, the process was performed with the right hand, as described in the article.
        On the AR, it is disconnected with the index finger of the right (holding weapon) hand, at this time the left hand removes the equipped magazine from the pouch. This saves 1 second minimum.

        At the expense of savings - it is very doubtful. If you served and have an idea of ​​shooting from an automatic rifle, imagine yourself in a firing position during the battle and the reloading process as you described it.
        The pouch of our soldier is on the right side of the belt, it is much easier to take out and fasten it to the weapon with your right hand. The weapon at this time is held by the forearm with the left hand. For lefties, of course, there is an inconvenience, but people are adapting.
        1. +1
          12 January 2017 13: 53
          Quote: piter-tank
          For lefties, of course, there is an inconvenience, but people are adapting.


          I am left-handed - there are no problems in holding the pistol grip with my left hand with the butt resting on the left shoulder - I inserted and pulled the bolt with my right hand - almost without losing the aiming line, especially the 74 or 74M, so you can generally hold it without a shoulder rest.
      2. +1
        14 November 2016 18: 35
        The time for changing the store in AK and M16 is almost the same - in the first time it is additionally spent on removing an empty store from the machine, in the second - on hitting a full store from the bottom after insertion into the rifle.

        At the same time, M16 has a modernization potential - the rationalization of the rifle latch of the store receiver shaft and the store's counter-locking holes to exclude a control hand strike after the store is attached.

        But this will already be implemented on new rifles for high-pulse cartridges.
        1. 0
          15 November 2016 11: 49
          Quote: Operator
          At the same time, the M16 has a modernization potential

          Everything has a modernization potential. For example, for the sake of a sports result, you can rivet a mechanism that, when sending the last cartridge, will reset the magazine and activate the shutter lag. Plus automatic removal from the slide delay when joining a new store. But only from a military point of view, the unit will turn out to be very doubtful.
          1. +1
            15 November 2016 12: 48
            The M16 modernization potential has already been realized by improving the stoppers of the STANAG plastic magazine designed by Fab Defense Ultimag - they are larger than those of the aluminum magazine and are formed by casting rather than perforating the walls of the magazine.

            The magazine latch in the neck of the rifle can be used both standard and more overall (which in principle solves the issue of connecting the store in one motion).

            The issue of automatically setting the bolt of a rifle / machine gun to the slide delay and automatic removal of the bolt from the delay after attaching the store has long and simply been solved in pistols, including those of the army type "Beretta".
            But in a specific M16, the internal volume of the receiver does not allow this mechanism to be accommodated, and no one will remodel the box at present due to the transition to small arms under high-pulse cartridges.
        2. +1
          18 November 2016 08: 35
          According to tests, the AK store shift time is shorter than the M 16. These tests are on YouTube.
  6. +7
    14 November 2016 08: 58

    and a similar video on the network by wagons ... I especially liked this 2-hour course on handling the AK-74 ... Dear Author, I really look forward to continuing !!!!!!!
  7. +1
    14 November 2016 09: 18
    Simple, intelligibly, with humor: =))
  8. +2
    14 November 2016 09: 37
    IMHO, but I recharge the m-series (vpo-140) much more convenient than ak (vpo-136).
  9. +11
    14 November 2016 10: 18
    Well I do not know. There was never a problem with changing the store. No stress prevented the store from entering the front window in one movement. Automatically shake your palm and also automatically release the shutter lag. Eyes on target. These operations are brought to instincts at KMB.
    The quality of M-16 stores leaves much to be desired. Plastic ones are really one-off and there are no bags that you need to open with your teeth. The fighter places the ammunition in the unloading not in combat. Over time, the sponges of aluminum magazines do not hold the cartridge well and it falls out into unloading. Equipping only 29 rounds does not help much. In general, new stores do not cause complaints. The problem is that in the army, most of the shops are full of holes. So you have to dig and choose something newer for yourself.
    1. +4
      14 November 2016 11: 24
      Quote: professor
      Automatically shake your palm

      This is why, when comparing AK and AR, the first thing Americans start to take pride in is that it has higher accuracy. And when you tell them that "music is higher ... and soon your whole America is kirdyk", they say "so what?"
      1. +5
        14 November 2016 11: 29
        Quote: bunta
        That's why when they compare AK and AR, the Americans first of all start to be proud that it has higher accuracy.

        From my personal experience, the M-16 is more accurate.

        Quote: bunta
        And when you tell them that "music is higher ... and soon your whole America is kirdyk", they say "so what?"

        Their music goes with a bang, but yours doesn’t. And kirdyk America will not be soon. Certainly not during our lifetimes. In general, I do not care who and what thinks about America and I don’t give a damn about it. hi
        1. +8
          15 November 2016 07: 50
          "Their music suits you with a bang, but they can't do yours."
          1. Licensed production of AK and RPG does not count?

          "Yes, and kirdyk America will not be soon. Certainly not in our lifetime. In general, I do not care who and what thinks about America and do not care about it."
          2. Something is hard to believe - that you do not care. I see your comments on VO quite regularly. Moreover, there is a clear trend:
          - You are against maintaining the integrity of Syria and the current government, as well as for striking at government troops. You are also seen in the groundless accusation of the Russian air forces in striking civilians with a large number of civilian casualties. (read for ISIS and US policy towards Syria - 1 *)
          - You spend a large enough portion of your time searching and visualizing dirty laundry in Russian media publications and statements by the Russian authorities. Increased attention is also being paid to the neutralization of patriotic (naturally, I can’t accept the patriotic) comments on VO. (does not contradict the emerging trend - 2 *)
          - for my being at VO - I didn’t notice a single comment - critical of the policy of the US leadership (and finally - 3 *)

          So vi is slightly "mi Russians do not fool arcs"?

          I have the honor
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +3
              15 November 2016 09: 28
              Quote: professor
              They have a girl or have a dacha. They have no honor. The Wee Guys should know this.


              I dare to assume that my comment did hurt your "non-pro * dos" feelings, since you have sunk to such a sharp and dull throwing ... belay

              I was surprised, because a priori I thought that trolls and feelings are incompatible concepts, and I mistakenly assumed that you belong to at least officer ranks in trolley troops ...

              Wrong, it happens.

              I have the honor
              1. 0
                18 November 2016 08: 06
                Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                Wrong, it happens.
                I have the honor

                It really happens.
                I have a girl. hi

                PS
                Learn Russian language. Read the classics. Maybe then you will cease to "have the honor".
                1. 0
                  18 November 2016 09: 36
                  Quote: professor
                  Learn Russian language. Read the classics. Maybe then you will cease to "have the honor".

                  Quote: professor
                  I have a girl.

                  As for the classics, I agree - Russian Classics need to be read, especially organisms wishing to grow into Humans, and even Jews, because it is Russian literature that, in addition to spirituality, can give a rich understanding honor and conscience.

                  Maybe you should follow own advice?
                  1. 0
                    18 November 2016 15: 00
                    Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                    Maybe you should follow your own advice?

                    I'll kill myself against the wall if you cite just one use as an example. "I have the honor."in Russian classics. Not"I have the honor to introduce myself[/ b] "or" [b] I have the honor to take my leave ", and since you applied it "I have the honor.".
                    It turns out that I am a Jew. I know Russian literature better than you are Russian? lol

                    BMW I have. hi
                    1. +1
                      21 November 2016 06: 38
                      An insulted and slandering Jew is funny. lol

                      "I have the honor to bow" eventually came into use as "I have the honor" associated with a bow.

                      This phrase is used not as an emphasis on the dignity of the speaker, but as a tribute to the interlocutor or those present.

                      You are right - in a conversation with you - this phrase is inappropriate.
                      1. 0
                        21 November 2016 12: 13
                        Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                        An insulted and slandering Jew is funny.

                        A Jew teaching Russian in Russian. Gap template. laughing

                        Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                        "I have the honor to bow" eventually came into use as "I have the honor" associated with a bow.

                        Something we did not see your bow. Well, depict.

                        Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                        You are right - in a conversation with you - this phrase is inappropriate.

                        I have a girl. wassat

                        Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                        By the way! Have you already chosen a wall?
                        "Platonov. I have the honor ... (Bows.)"
                        Chekhov. Fatherlessness.

                        Once again, for those who have Russian, even though they are native, he hardly understands it.
                        I'll kill myself against the wall if you cite at least one use of "I have the honor." in Russian classics. Not "I have the honor to introduce myself" or "I have the honor to take my leave", but since you applied it, "I have the honor." At least one example of the use of this phrase as you cut it off in writing. We are in correspondence with you. wink
                        Go ahead, my young friend. Learn the classics. hi
                    2. +2
                      21 November 2016 06: 42
                      By the way! Have you already chosen a wall?

                      "Platonov. I have the honor ... (Bows.)"

                      Chekhov. Fatherlessness.
                    3. +2
                      21 November 2016 22: 32
                      No dear, you do not know Russian literature or culture! Because your knowledge is small and insignificant! In tsarist times, one of the general military regulations stipulated that an officer, when parting, could use the phrase "I have the honor" as a formal expression. "I wish you health." "Glad to". Some formulations have survived to our time, some have not. Initially, the phrase meant that the officer vouches for his honesty, loyalty to duty, that he remained honest and his honor was with him! This was long before the appearance of your state, so you have a two)))) Maybe you should devote yourself to your country, otherwise it’s a pity for your girls, they stand under arms, and the men on the topvar teach Russian cabbage soup))))
                      1. 0
                        22 November 2016 08: 26
                        Quote: Vyazemsky partisan
                        In tsarist times, one of the general military regulations stipulated that an officer, when parting, could use the phrase "I have the honor" as a formal expression. "I wish you health." "Glad to".

                        I believe. Of course, you have a screen shot of this charter at hand and it will not be difficult for you to show it to us? wink

                        I have a girl. hi
          2. +1
            16 November 2016 14: 23
            Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
            Licensed production of AK and RPG does not count

            And what, somewhere in the world there is a licensed production of AK and / or PKK?
            The copyright on them expired very, very many years ago. Therefore, no licenses are required to copy them.
            Moreover, if I am not mistaken, the Kalashnikov brand in the USA belongs to an American company. Those. Izhevsk has no right to supply Kalash under the Kalashnikov brand to the USA.
            1. +1
              20 November 2016 02: 21
              The spread of misinformation is not a mistake, but a job.
        2. 0
          13 October 2017 11: 48
          From my personal experience, the M-16 is more accurate.
          I don’t argue more precisely, but at the training camp the instructor spoke carefully so that the sand didn’t get there were cases not good from the sand
      2. +2
        14 November 2016 12: 13
        Quote: bunta
        Americans first of all begin to be proud of the fact that her accuracy is higher.

        And we are more reliable. Both approaches are wrong in my understanding, because the key to understanding why AK is more reliable, and M16 more precisely lies in the role they play in the OSH of their troops. Those. in a comprehensive assessment. To understand this, it is necessary to analyze the OShS of the CA / RA and US companies, including the role of other weapons, such as the PKK and PKM, and they have M249 and M240. But nobody wants to do this.
        1. +4
          14 November 2016 12: 47
          The accuracy of the M-16 is higher than single, but in automatic fire AK wins. The reasons, which in itself is surprising, are precisely in the design of weapons to whom seriously - the answer is in the works of M.E. Dragunova, everything is there even with calculations ...
          Somewhere I came across that AK, by and large, was an order of front-line soldiers ... At a meeting with the designers, they asked for a weapon equal in rate of fire to the PP and more long-range. But not as "stunning" as ABC and not as heavy as a machine gun ...
          1. +1
            14 November 2016 16: 01
            M16 automatic firing accuracy at AEK level, i.e. 1,25 times higher than AK-74.

            AK-74 is an order of the GRAU of the USSR Ministry of Defense, which was formed on the basis of the planned tactics of using standard weapons with a motorized rifle division: AK - automatic suppression fire, SVD - single aimed fire. PC - automatic aimed fire, RPG - aimed fire at armored vehicles.

            That is why the RPD and RPK machine guns, which in their functions duplicated AKs, were removed from the armament of the SA.
            1. 0
              21 November 2016 13: 46
              Quote: Operator
              That is why the RPD and RPK machine guns, which in their functions duplicated AKs, were removed from the armament of the SA.

              Not certainly in that way.
              https://topwar.ru/76782-ruchnoy-pulemet-rpk-74-i-
              ego-modifikacii.html
              1. 0
                21 November 2016 13: 56
                You are right - RPK-74 remained in service with the RA, but was actually replaced by a PC.

                PKK duplicates the main function of AK (automatic shooting to suppress at close range), and the PC provides the same function at long range.
          2. 0
            14 November 2016 22: 27
            Quote: alex-cn
            but in automatic fire AK wins

            AK-74 loses in all respects. Because these are weapons of another, less high class.
            The only thing in which it is equal to M16 is reliability.
            1. +4
              15 November 2016 08: 12
              With all due respect - your comments give rise to a strong feeling of a "spherical horse in a vacuum."

              Are they paid at least enough?
              1. 0
                15 November 2016 13: 40
                Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                from your comments there is a persistent feeling of a "spherical horse in a vacuum".

                You are a happy person, you saw him. Apparently.
                Quote: ProtectRusOrDie
                Are they paid at least enough?

                Stupid hints.
            2. +1
              15 November 2016 16: 58
              Well, if only in airsoft and nothing more!)))
            3. +1
              18 November 2016 08: 02
              rjxtufh November 14, 2016 22:27 p.m. ↑
              Quote: alex-cn
              but in automatic fire AK wins
              AK-74 loses in all respects. Because these are weapons of another, less high class.
              The only thing in which it is equal to M16 is reliability.


              ah-ah- laughing ha thank you ridiculed, as they say blessed who believes wassat
              1. 0
                18 November 2016 11: 08
                Quote: free
                ha thank you laugh

                Learn, you need to.
          3. 0
            15 November 2016 00: 02
            And where did the horizontal withdrawal of the trunk go? It’s a pity I can’t remember the movie, where the marine on the helmet with 300 meters bursts of fire from m16a2. As you know, the heavier barrel on the m16a2 greatly influenced the firing of bursts. The advantage of AK over the most massive US M16a2 rifle in firing bursts is not only there over the M4
        2. 0
          14 November 2016 22: 26
          Quote: Alex_59
          And we are more reliable.

          Quote: Alex_59
          the key to understanding why AK is more reliable

          Why did you decide this? The reliability of both samples is approximately the same.
    2. +5
      14 November 2016 11: 27
      yes admit it already, g-dd your m-16
    3. 0
      14 November 2016 11: 37
      AR-ki are normal devices, I like modularity, although this is probably not for war, but for civilian use, and AR has a slightly larger grouping of bursts (and even that is not the point, but patches are not very good 5,45) and AK more reliable (it all depends on the soldier, in chicha I watched on the blocks so rusted that you could only distort the leg with a jump, although after that there were no delays)
      1. +2
        14 November 2016 12: 53
        Exactly the opposite. This AK74 is a lot more bursty.
      2. +1
        14 November 2016 15: 18
        Just emki (especially M4) when shooting bursts begin to spit in all directions. At AK-74, if you know exactly how the barrel will go and you will press it in the right direction, the queue lies in a more or less even line.
    4. +1
      14 November 2016 17: 23
      Quote: professor
      Н
      The quality of M-16 stores leaves much to be desired. Plastic ones are really one-off and there are no bags that you need to open with your teeth. The fighter places the ammunition in the unloading not in combat. Over time, the sponges of aluminum magazines do not hold the cartridge well and it falls out into unloading. Equipping only 29 rounds does not help much. In general, new stores do not cause complaints. The problem is that in the army, most of the shops are full of holes. So you have to dig and choose something newer for yourself.

      Magpool why not?
      1. +1
        14 November 2016 18: 45
        Magpul - sucks, Fab Defense Ultimag - steers laughing
        It is necessary to reinforce plastic, but not to engage in slander

  10. +4
    14 November 2016 10: 45
    Thank you for the service!
    In detail and clearly, using the example of "little things" it is shown that there are no little things in the weapon. Maybe the Kalash turned out like this because it was developed by a "consumer" and not an engineer.
    1. +4
      14 November 2016 11: 06
      Writes a man who knows the AK and does not know the M-16

      Most of what the author wrote about the M-16 is incorrect.
      1. aiw
        0
        14 November 2016 11: 25
        So correct?
      2. 0
        18 November 2016 08: 44
        Duck would have written in your army, after all, not a little M 16.
    2. 0
      18 November 2016 08: 42
      Not a consumer, as you deigned to say, but a designer gunsmiths. It is no secret that in addition to Kalashnikov, not a few designers worked on the machine.
      1. 0
        19 November 2016 13: 58
        Quote: Dinko
        Not a consumer, as you deigned to say, but a designer gunsmiths. It is no secret that in addition to Kalashnikov, not a few designers worked on the machine.

        Just do not need to rave. Say that the T34 was developed not by Koshkin, but by the design team. When we discuss topics, it is believed that we speak the same language and use the same concepts. You will recall that Aunt Frosya also washed the Kalashnikov’s office 31 times, so what? Honor and respect for Aunt Frosa, but remembering her when we talk about Kalashnikov is not a reason. Kalashnikov himself was already a design armourer. He already had machine guns in metal. And all the development of other designers were done on his instructions, as the general defendant for the result.
        WIKI
        The soldier made weapons for the soldier. I myself was an ordinary person and I know well the difficulties encountered in soldier's life ... When its design was being finalized, I visited military units and consulted with specialists. And the soldiers told me what suits them and what needs to be finalized. It turned out simple, reliable and eeffective weapon.
        Go to any design bureau, and say: "I, as a consumer, are not satisfied with ....., not convenient." You will be lucky if they frown and write down your questions. And Kalashnikov passed everything through himself and knew there were no trifles in the weapon. And he did not spare his efforts to solve these trifles.
        "Consumer" does not suit, well, "soldier", "operator", "submachine gunman" ... Well, tell me, and then I will fully criticize the terminology, not politically consistent enough.
    3. 0
      18 November 2016 11: 12
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      because it was developed by the "consumer" and not the engineer.

      An intelligent consumer cannot develop a ramrod for weapons.
      Small arms, this is the fate of far from amateur. Even sensible.
      Anyway, any thing more difficult than a slingshot cannot be done by amateurs. Only if clumsy.
  11. UVB
    +6
    14 November 2016 11: 14
    Latch shop zelo snot
    Respect to the author! And as for the automatic machines, in my opinion the best automatic machine of all times and peoples is the AKM in the first photo. Of course, the AK-74 of subsequent and modifications has its advantages, but in a real battle, when hitting targets behind light obstacles, especially in the "green", the advantage of the AKM is undeniable. The bullet does not change direction as is the case with the smaller caliber. And this is just one example.
    1. +1
      14 November 2016 23: 38
      Quote: UVB
      of all time it’s AKM

      Old songs about the main thing.
      Quote: UVB
      but in real battle

      All Ak-74s have AKM intelligence because of PBS and no leaflets.
    2. +2
      20 November 2016 13: 38
      This is just one example, and it’s also a stupid, fictitious one, and the rest of the arguments are, where is the salt to humiliate the AK-74 ?? what kind of tales have taken shape among the people, but this is a lousy nonsense, no leaflets are a hindrance to a 5.45 caliber bullet, and at large distances, most caliber bullets ricochet equally. I don’t want to make an expert out of myself, I have experience in handling weapons and using them directly in battle and have dispelled these myths for myself so many times, but they really are fiction, it’s good that they didn’t start about bullets with a shifted center of gravity, otherwise it would go wild because physics will not allow it)))))
  12. +1
    14 November 2016 11: 25
    Good article!
  13. +3
    14 November 2016 11: 30
    A brilliant article, a sober look at the facts. Plus to the author.
    It is very useful to read, and some of them from the time of Serdyukov have developed a derogatory attitude towards our small arms.
    AK refers to the small arms system, and this is the charter, and tactics, and logistics, etc. The question is - is it worth changing the rifle complex for the sake of dubious qualities?
    For picatec, you can make a kit from the lining on the gas outlet pipe and forend.
    1. +5
      14 November 2016 12: 52
      Quote: uskrabut
      For picates

      Because of these picnies with Popenker, I almost didn't get into a fight. It can not forgive me the statement that the Picatinny rail is the most stupid innovation in weapons. The solution to get rid of them is. But it is not such that it could be formulated in one sentence, otherwise it would have been disposed of long ago.
      1. +2
        14 November 2016 15: 20
        While there are excellent sights for these bars - you need to put them. As the originals of normal sights under the dovetail appear - you can refuse.
      2. 0
        22 November 2017 14: 37
        Quote: bunta
        Because of these picnies with Popenker, I almost didn't get into a fight.

        Sorry for the "late ignition" (I just re-read this series of articles), but where can I read your epistolary battles with Maxim? It would be very interesting to know your arguments against the rails.
        1. +2
          22 November 2017 16: 03
          On Facebook. But there are not my main arguments there, since Facebook is not for this. I want to make it a separate article, after all, at least a little, but they pay and the audience is bigger.
          1. 0
            22 November 2017 16: 45
            Thank you, I will wait with great curiosity.
            By the way, I have to admit: the text about AK, on ​​behalf of a certain former "Dan Shani" paratrooper, which you sometimes quote is a fake. I know this for sure, since I wrote it when I was 17 years old, as an “argument” in one of the endless disputes of AKvsM-16, then on the saiga.narod.ru forum. I never cease to be amazed at how tenacious garbage came out and how abundantly it went. There is nothing particularly seditious there, but you should not bring this quote and quote, I think. If only because the author is ashamed every time)
            1. +1
              22 November 2017 19: 00
              something I don’t remember where I quote him. Give a link.
              1. 0
                22 November 2017 22: 31
                https://topwar.ru/103412-ak-vs-ar-chast-i.html
                "Comparison of Russian and American assault rifles through the eyes of an American soldier:
                "This weapon seemed to all to be something like a sling and a bow of primitive savages, so simply it was arranged and trimmed ..." "
                - it's from there.
                and https://topwar.ru/105218-ak-vs-ar-chast-vi.html:
                "In the experienced hands, M-16 will never dip into the dirt, even if the shooter is in it at the very poppy head, never sip water and will always be cleaned and oiled."however, the quote is attributed to P. D. Kokalis, but my name is not so, and even Mikhail Belov at all)))
                In general, I really liked the cycle, many thanks to you for the work done! But these quotes upset me. Now I would not write such things even in the heat of the debate: real life has presented and continues to present a lot of examples of the theses that I defended then, there is no need to come up with fakes. I just then, in my infancy, did not know how to look for these examples, and where to look - I also did not know. It is even more regrettable to see that the fake written then falls into the articles "Master Gun", or into such a wonderful series of your articles here.
                1. +1
                  23 November 2017 06: 35
                  Quote: Mika_BLIN
                  there the quote is attributed to P. D. Kokalis,

                  I don’t know how the late Peter Kokalis, but I think God will forgive for repentance winked
  14. +2
    14 November 2016 13: 15
    The article is excellent, ergonomics are the most important property of weapons. I look forward to continuing
  15. 0
    14 November 2016 15: 01
    The first photo is AK47, 7,62, YES OF COURSE IT'S A WONDERFUL AUTOMATION !!!!. Having experience, of course, you can have a really good nightly smoke.
    1. UVB
      +3
      14 November 2016 16: 17
      Quote: Free Wind
      The first photo is AK47, 7,62,
      This is AKM and not AK47. At AK, the receiver was milled rather than stamped, outwardly it was distinguished by a wider base of the front sight, the shape of the forend, wooden handle, and the design of the bayonet-knife.
      1. +3
        18 November 2016 08: 50
        Firstly, dear, you should understand that such a weapon as AK 47 doesn’t actually exist. There is an AK assault rifle .. Secondly, what is shown in the photo is the same AK and not AKM, the box is forged and heavier than the AKM can be seen on the milled strip above the store and it’s absolutely true that the base of the fly is wider than AKM. Signs can still be listed, but I think that’s enough. Of course, I started a little abruptly but nevertheless the AK was AKM; the AKM was AK 74 and then AK 74M if you pay attention to the movement of the letter M (modernization) then everything falls into place.
        1. 0
          18 November 2016 11: 16
          Quote: Dinko
          weapons like AK 47 don't really exist

          There was such a weapon. Moreover, all three, AK-47, AK and AKM have slightly different performance characteristics.
          Quote: Dinko
          but nevertheless AK was AKM

          And before AK was AK-47.
          1. +2
            19 November 2016 07: 11
            I don’t know where you got this cover, but in the Soviet army it wasn’t called AK 47, so don’t drive the blizzard, but the year the AK was adopted was 1949. This is the official name for the not very understandable AK! And what is interestingly manifested as you deigned to express slightly different performance characteristics of various AK upgrades?
          2. 0
            20 November 2016 02: 25
            The first sensible comment from you is short and to the point.
  16. 0
    14 November 2016 15: 32
    I didn’t understand anything - the author again broadcasts not about machines, but about shops laughing

    Comparison of cartridges (one of the two components of the "weapon-cartridge" complex) on the side, let's discuss the movements of the shooter's hands when reloading the AK and M16 - judging by the focus of the article, the AK is no different from the M16 for the better.

    At the same time, the fact that the M16 store was more securely held in the storehouse shaft, unlike the AK store, whose lever strives to turn the store out of the machine when it hits an obstacle, remained unfamiliar to the author of the article.

    I was especially "pleased" by the author's statement that the holes for locking the M16 magazine in the shaft of the magazine receiver serve for the entry of dirt - this is with the absolutely open end of any magazine for small arms cartridges.
  17. 0
    14 November 2016 15: 40
    For 50 years, disputes have not abated, which rifle is better? And all the grief of anolytics compares AK 47 with M 16. Although there are almost no such weapons in normal armies. Very few analytics about their analogues M 4 and AK 74. Our AK makes one factory in Izhevsk and its appearance has changed little, at least its shooting characteristics. M 4 is produced all over by all means, only in the USA there are about 5 large concerns that stamp rifles based on M 4, not counting smaller manufacturers. And almost all are different from each other. On this generalize is not correct. The models vary like reloading mechanism, gas pipe or piston, sights, barrel length, calibers, locking mechanism (rotary cremallera type). In general, for every taste and color. And in terms of reliability, the AK is not inferior if not superior, in ergonomics in terms of mass, accuracy and almost everything went around our AK 74. I would like to ask our designers a question where is our advertised AK 12? Where are the supplies to the troops? Is it more difficult to establish production and supply than to build a spaceport? Looking forward to 6 years?
    Let's hope for the best.
    1. 0
      14 November 2016 22: 35
      Quote: RASKAT
      For the past 50 years, disputes have not abated, which rifle is better?

      Where? This "problem" is only in the Russian Internet.
  18. +6
    14 November 2016 17: 55
    Unlike the M16 rifle itself, which is saturated with fine details, its store is surprised by the simplicity of its shape to such an extent that in a hurry it can be inserted into the weapon upside down (see the thesis against the fool in the first part).

    The author immediately give explanations, under "small details" in M-16, I mean Pins (pins) which are essentially eternal, otherwise the reader immediately thinks of a lot of complex and breaking parts ...
    AR-15 can be completely disassembled on the knee in the field with the removal of the barrel, install another barrel. Complete disassembly.
    At AK the trunk is pressed, it can be removed and installed only in the workshop, repair in the field is not possible.
    If not completely disassembled, the AR-15 parts are no more than AK
    1. +2
      14 November 2016 23: 31
      Well, what are you? Here is the canonical picture.
      1. +6
        15 November 2016 10: 43
        Quote: Chtononibrator
        Well, what are you? Here is the canonical picture.

        In your picture, a complete disassembly of the semi-automatic rifle AR-15 (which can be done on the knee for 5-7 minutes).
        For a clear comparison, a complete disassembly of AK (which is not possible in the field)
  19. 0
    14 November 2016 18: 56
    as an indicator of reliability - forward assist assembly ...
  20. +14
    14 November 2016 19: 48
    Our officers had dovetail guns with a side bar ... the so-called "night lights". On it, you can use the NSPU bloc or the sight from the SVD. This is why she was "valuable" .. But in practice, this never happened. Everything worked fine. And when it was necessary the targets were hit. I am an active opponent of picatinny planks. They will cut through all the equipment like a saw, they will cling to anything, rub or even cut their fingers when shooting .. And yes .. opponents are experts (airsoft), who love to dress up in military fetishes and look cool will laugh and say what is on the picatinny lids ... Yes there are covers, but they will be lost at the first "nix". One such connoisseur somehow brilliantly replied to me "I have not lost in two years" ... But if he had "fierce battles" in two years, mostly probably with his mother for money for toys, did not get lost, then in the troops such a ride with a bang. Yes .... what to say. And such sofa-room heroes are the bulk of the comments. For people who understand, it has long been clear that if Ak can be upgraded, then insignificantly, this will not lead to any special improvements in characteristics and advantages. Those who shoot often, and where necessary, need a Kovorov machine gun. Precisely as an addition to the AKMS 74 5,45 / 39 assault rifle. All these improvements are a struggle for new loot from the state, and nothing more.
    1. +1
      14 November 2016 23: 17
      [quote = tracer] to the AKMS 74 5,45 / 39 machine [/ quote]
      Feels like an expert opinion
      [quote = tracer] [quote = tracer] They will cut all the equipment as a saw [/ quote]
      Foreign armies have long been using slats and for some reason they don’t cut anything.
      1. +3
        15 November 2016 03: 53
        It just so happened that I myself am now foreign, what to become, honestly served the fatherland where it was necessary and how it was necessary. A medal in the safe next to TToy and Glock is confirmed by this. And if so, therefore I better know what is going on there in the foreign army. The soldiers simply throw out half of the unnecessary trash and wear exactly what makes sense. With shops from the M4, the truth is true .. in Afghanistan, the soldiers simply threw away the guns from the store.
      2. 0
        18 November 2016 09: 00
        Did you talk to them about this? And I think that your foreign speaker is right!
  21. 0
    14 November 2016 19: 54
    Quote: Andrey Kulikov
    AK vs AR

    I'll start with a headline that is inappropriate on its own. Because AK-74 and M16A2 are weapons of different, albeit related, classes. Because the question itself, which is better "a machine gun or a heavy machine gun", is strange in itself.
    M16A2 is an automatic army rifle. Normal full-fledged individual army automatic weapons.
    AK-74, this is an automatic assault (weakened army) rifle, i.e. weapons for special operations. In the army, probably, this should also be in small quantities, but certainly not as the main one.
    If the author really wanted to compare something, he had to compare the old M16A1 and RPK-74. Here they are something else, somewhere, somehow ballistically have something in common. At the same time, M16A2 is decently more effective than M16A1. And the AK-74 is noticeably less effective than the RPK-74. Those. it is obvious that these weapons (M16A2 and AK-74) diverged into different classes.
    Quote: Andrey Kulikov
    Domestic is weaker in power when leaving the trunk, but this is not its drawback.

    This is not a flaw, this is TROUBLE. That inherited from the USSR went to this little-suitable dokhlopatron and a thuja heap of trunks under it. Now it is POSSIBLE to arm themselves almost completely, and this is very expensive.
    However, I already described the real story of his (patron's) appearance, to whom it may be interesting to see in the profile.
    Quote: Andrey Kulikov
    less recoil, higher accuracy when firing bursts

    Accuracy tried to bring more or less back to normal, reducing the power of the cartridge. As a result, the accuracy remained unimportant anyway (such is the "legendary mechanism"), although not the same as at first, on a cartridge of normal power. But the weapon due to the fact that a normal cartridge was turned into a secondary cartridge was lost in the classroom. And from the class of army automatic rifles moved to the class of assault automatic rifles.
    The USSR and no saboteurs were needed. He knew how to plant pigs.
    Quote: Andrey Kulikov
    at the same time, in terms of penetration, our cartridge still remains unattainable for either American or European designers.

    Interestingly, the author is familiar even with elementary physics?
    No, it is understandable that earlier "phenomenal penetration" was due to the firm moral principles of the builder of communism, embedded in the patron. And now, what helps him in this?
    This is nonsense, in other words. Poor cartridge. Not an army. This is his biggest misfortune.

    I didn’t read much further. There about ergonomics, and this is to the operators.
    But the need to charge weapons while aiming surprised.
    1. +6
      14 November 2016 20: 03
      You young people can still surprise a lot of things .. I assure you. When you automatically down down from the line of aiming directions at the enemy. This is an invitation to him to turn you into a dull forehead. Whenever possible, weapons should be aimed at the enemy. Even if the ammo runs out. STRATEG MLIN
      1. 0
        14 November 2016 23: 01
        Quote: tracer
        When you automatically down down from the line of aiming directions at the enemy. This is an invitation to him to turn you into a dull forehead.

        Yeah. Another one who "once knew Russian".
        Miracle, read again what is written. And then again 10. And then try to understand what is written there. And then write your own nonsense.
      2. 0
        14 November 2016 23: 23
        Quote: tracer
        This is an invitation to him to turn you into a dull forehead.

        Where is it so? To a duel? Some kind of vacuum reasoning.
      3. +1
        15 November 2016 08: 22
        Quote: tracer
        When you automatically down down from the line of aiming directions at the enemy. This is an invitation to him to turn you into a dull forehead.


        Didn’t you hear about the shelter? I’m a pf, of course I’m a striker-airsoft player and I don’t understand much in life, so far to me ... But it even seems to me that reloading in any battle is best done in hiding (although I admit that this is not always available).
    2. +1
      14 November 2016 20: 43
      5,45x39 really has a very large penetration, new armor-piercing - not really inferior to the SVD in a short distance. It does unpleasant things in the body, so if you hit it, it can seriously cripple. Accuracy AK-74 is good, better than M4, but worse than M16A3 and A4, unless, of course, you get used to the machine gun and not hold it like a plastic toy, which is very fond of the arrowheads, who mainly exploited the A-shaped.
      1. 0
        14 November 2016 23: 08
        Quote: Forest
        5,45x39 really has a very large penetration, new armor-piercing

        No AK-74 will reach the penetrating ability of a comparable M16A2 cartridge with any cartridge. The laws of physics are against. DE M16 is a quarter more than DE AK-74. And penetration at a distance of 400 m, at 1/6. And that’s like a sentence. You can’t argue with physics.
        Quote: Forest
        Accuracy AK-74 is good, better than M4, but worse than M16A3 and A4

        This is an indisputable fact.
        In this case, I would put it another way, the accuracy of the M16A2 is good, and the AK-74 is mediocre.
        1. +5
          15 November 2016 07: 24
          Quote: rjxtufh
          The laws of physics are against. DE M16 is a quarter more DE AK-74. And penetration at a range of 400 m, at 1 / 6. And that’s like a sentence. You can’t argue with physics.

          When will you stop broadcasting this nonsense?
          DE cartridge M885 when firing from M16 - 1600 J
          DE cartridge M885 when firing from M4 - 1390 J
          DE cartridge 7Н6 (1974 г) from Ak-74 - 1294 J
          DE cartridge 7Н10 (1994 г) from Ak-74 - 1369 J
          DE cartridge 7Н22 (1998 г) from Ak-74 - 1396 J
          DE cartridge 7H24 (2000 g) from Ak-74 - 1551 J.

          If we take the ancient 7Н6 then yes, M16 is 23% more. And why is it only about the ancient cartridge 7Н6? Let's compare Ivan the Terrible with the beeps; there, in general, the M16 will be a space blaster.
          1. +1
            15 November 2016 08: 16
            Penetration indicators:
            7H24.001 at 500 m penetration 5mm armor steel 2П
            M855A1 on 350 m penetration 9,5 mm mild steel type St3
            2P strength is three times higher than mild steel. That is, our cartridge on 500 m must flash a sheet of mild steel 15 mm.
            1. +1
              15 November 2016 09: 07
              the question, of course, is an interesting one, but in principle, "rjxtufh" is right: it seems that it takes place that we make the core harder, we are wise with its shape and powder, perhaps we reduce the weight of the bullet, but they do nothing at all
              1. +8
                15 November 2016 10: 01
                Quote: pimen
                we make the core harder, we are wise with its shape and gunpowder, we may reduce the weight of the bullet, and they do nothing at all

                M16 and AK-74 - barrels of different lengths. Therefore, without changing the barrel, we tightened armor penetration to the level of the longer M16 barrel. It was possible without changing the cartridge to simply increase the barrel length, but they did not do this, because increasing the size of the AK would be a step back. Moreover, there is RPK-74, which with the cartridge 7Н24 ДЕ is larger than М16 and reaches 1890 J. And Americans generally switched to М4, since there is no need for such a long barrel, which М16 has. Some problems - maneuverability in the city is worse, range and accuracy in reality are not needed, etc. In fact, the 5,45 and 5,56 cartridges are exactly the same and will give the same result (if made from the same materials) from the same barrels. Our 7H24 is better only because the core material is different. We found it necessary - the Americans do not. And in fact, both sides made mistakes. Both were not guessed with the caliber, it is too weak against modern bulletproof vests, what they have, what we have. But the United States made another mistake by betting on the long-barreled M16 in which there really is no need. And switched to M4. Because a shooter with a rifle in modern combat as the main striking force does not solve anything. This is a weapon of self-defense. And the main tasks are solved by collective means - BMP, AGS, mortars, machine guns. The rest only provide and service them. Against this background, armor penetration is that AK, that M4 is a deeply secondary issue on the scale of the army.
                1. 0
                  15 November 2016 19: 41
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  M16 and AK-74 - trunks of different lengths.

                  Bravely, very bravely. And, interestingly, true.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Therefore, without changing the barrel, we increased armor penetration to the level of the longer M16 barrel

                  How did you pull up? Was it a rope pulled or a wire?
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  but they didn’t do this, because increasing the size of the AK would be a step back.

                  Why back? Rather sideways.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Moreover, there is RPK-74, which with a 7N24 DE cartridge has more than M16 and reaches 1890 J.

                  Phenomenally. What business is it with? According to my calculations, about 1600 J is obtained. And M16A2 has 1738 J. I’m even afraid to guess where more. I’m probably mistaken.
                  By the way, the M4A1 1571 J, only slightly less than the RPK-74.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  And the Americans generally switched to M4

                  Once again, illiterate and, in principle, impossible nonsense was broadcast.
                  At least regarding M4A1.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Some problems - maneuverability in the city is worse, range and accuracy in reality are not needed, etc.

                  Bullshit ordinary ravings. You don’t even understand the basics of weapon design. Those. you don’t even understand what its trunk serves in small arms.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  In fact, the 5,45 and 5,56 cartridges are exactly the same and will give the same result (if made from the same materials) from the same barrels.

                  I applaud with my ears lying under the table. Although they are all in noodles.
                  Barrel RPK-74 590 mm, DE 1567 J.
                  Barrel M16A2 508 mm, DE 1738 J.
                  Barrel M4A1 368 mm, DE 1571 J.
                  Looking at the numbers, I immediately understand that the cartridges are "exactly the same".
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Our 7N24 is better only because the core material is different. We found it necessary - the Americans do not.

                  And who is arguing? A completely technically backward country. They don’t understand anything in weapons. Whether business users from the site.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  And in fact, both sides made mistakes.

                  Wah! From curiosity even a desire arose to get out from under the table.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Both were not guessed with the caliber, it is too weak against modern body armor, what they have, what we have.

                  Yeah. I foresee the traditional HS about the "promising Hryundel".
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  But the United States made another mistake by betting on the long-barreled M16, which in fact there is no need for. And switched to M4.

                  With Hryundel, I did not guess. On ... the eleventh circle went UG about the "mass replacement of M16 by M4". Zombies.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Because a shooter with a rifle in modern combat as the main striking force does not solve anything.

                  Observer? Or a tourist?
                  Although, no, the hunter, probably.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  This is a weapon of self-defense.

                  Not a hunter. Victim.
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Against this background, armor penetration is that AK, that M4 is a deeply secondary issue on the scale of armies.

                  The question by which life (or even just health) can be saved at least one compatriot can not and should not be secondary. Stop counting millions.
              2. 0
                15 November 2016 14: 05
                Quote: pimen
                and they don’t do anything at all

                They do. But in RuNet about this is not accepted to write. Otherwise, the old template will break, and there is nowhere to take the new one from.
                1. 0
                  15 November 2016 14: 30
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  Quote: pimen
                  and they don’t do anything at all

                  They do. But in RuNet about this is not accepted to write. Otherwise, the old template will break, and there is nowhere to take the new one from.

                  Actually, I’m saying that the tendency to increase the power of the cartridge is clearly visible. It is clear that our cartridge itself is no worse in every sense, because if at 7.62x39 they equipped 2.7g of gunpowder with a 7g bullet, then in a slightly oversized 5.45x39 there is surely room to grow in this regard with the current 1.5g for 4g bullets
                  1. 0
                    15 November 2016 15: 11
                    Quote: pimen
                    It is clear that in itself, our cartridge is no worse in every sense

                    Worse. In almost every sense. Except, of course, the Christomatic "consumption of metal and gunpowder."
                    Quote: pimen
                    2.7g of gunpowder on a 7g bullet, then in a slightly oversized 5.45x39 there is surely room to grow in this regard with the current 1.5g on a 4g bullet

                    The AK-74 has nowhere to grow. Because They are designed for a specific working pressure.
                    Although, of course, to extend the barrel somewhere up to 500-520 mm, it is possible to add gunpowder slightly (very slightly) and slightly increase the n / s of the bullet. Actually, I wrote about this 100 times already.
                    But then the momentum of return will increase. From this, the AK-74 is worse at the accuracy of automatic fire, and as a result, zilch. That, from which they fled in the early 70s, we will run to this. The circle will close.
                    Therefore, the cartridge most likely cannot be touched. But the barrel of the new models of army machine guns can be extended.
                    N / s from this on a standard cartridge will also increase, but not so much. The recoil momentum will also increase. Therefore, the "legendary mechanism" cannot be used, it will most likely fail to balance it. It means that new automation is needed, and this is money.
                    Therefore, it is likely that nothing will happen at all. For now, at least.
                    1. 0
                      15 November 2016 15: 39
                      Quote: rjxtufh

                      The AK-74 has nowhere to grow. Because They are designed for a specific working pressure.
                      Although, of course, to extend the barrel somewhere up to 500-520 mm, it is possible to add gunpowder slightly (very slightly) and slightly increase the n / s of the bullet. Actually, I wrote about this 100 times already.
                      But then the momentum of return will increase. From this, the AK-74 is worse at the accuracy of automatic fire, and as a result, zilch. That, from which they fled in the early 70s, we will run to this. The circle will close.
                      Therefore, the cartridge most likely cannot be touched. But the barrel of the new models of army machine guns can be extended.
                      N / s from this on a standard cartridge will also increase, but not so much. The recoil momentum will also increase. Therefore, the "legendary mechanism" cannot be used, it will most likely fail to balance it. It means that new automation is needed, and this is money.
                      Therefore, it is likely that nothing will happen at all. For now, at least.

                      I think that 1200 m / s initial speed at the current length (since it is so convenient) the Kalashevsky barrel will withstand quite well, it will be possible to further reduce the rifling pitch, "correct" it with balanced automation, and you will get a completely modern sample, with relatively little blood, capable of digesting old ones, and new cartridges
                      1. 0
                        15 November 2016 19: 05
                        Quote: pimen
                        it will also be possible to reduce the pitch of the rifling

                        increase of course. It was necessary to finish earlier for today
                      2. +1
                        16 November 2016 00: 55
                        Quote: pimen
                        I think, 1200 m / s initial speed at the current length

                        Right away, the first question, what will be the resource of the trunk? Will the trunks change like gloves?
                        I don’t even ask other questions.
            2. +1
              15 November 2016 14: 03
              Quote: bunta
              7H24.001 at 500 m penetration 5mm armor steel 2П
              855 ft M1A350 penetration of 9,5 mm St steel

              The fact that in RuNet it is customary to compare the penetration of bullets of armor-piercing rounds of AK-74 with the performance of ordinary standard M16 cartridges, I already understood. Could not specify.
          2. 0
            15 November 2016 13: 59
            Quote: Alex_59
            When will you stop broadcasting this nonsense?

            I do not have your habits.
            No, seriously, such nonsense is not common. People takes the weight of the armor-piercing bullet from 7N24 and multiplies it by n / s of the usual bullet. As a result, getting nonsense.
            Uncle, n / s armor-piercing bullet LESS n / s ordinary bullet. Therefore, the DE will be less, about 1400 J.
            By the way, DE M16 with a standard cartridge of 1738 J, and M4 - 1571 J. Feel the difference.
            By the way, special cartridges for them are also available.
            1. +4
              15 November 2016 15: 18
              Quote: rjxtufh
              Therefore, the DE will be less, of the order of 1400 J.

              If we assume that n / s 7Н24 840 m / s - then yes, 1440 J. But there are no exact data on the s / n, however, as well as the bullet weight. Nevertheless, 1440 J and 1600 J is not a quarter difference, but 10%. Only. Manufacturers of body armor put M16 with M885 and Ak-74 with 7Н24 in one armor-piercing class.

              Quote: rjxtufh
              DE M16 full-time cartridge 1738 J, and M4 - 1571 J

              Oh, you know how to count too. This makes me happy. There are different interpretations regarding the weight of the bullet. 3,56 grams or 4 grams. Well, let's say all the same 4 grams, so be it. Although all manufacturers have 5,56x45, the weight is just indicated by 3,56. Well, let's say. Then the difference between M16 and Ak-74 will be only 15%. And with M4, Ak-74 has complete equality.
              But all this does not matter, because modern body armor keeps hits from both AK, and from M16 and from M4 at ranges of more than 10 meters. And the collective weapons — machine guns, mortars, AGS, BMP — have long been solving the main fire problems for a long time.
              1. 0
                16 November 2016 01: 10
                Quote: Alex_59
                But there are no exact data on the N / A, however, as well as the mass of the bullet.

                Who told you this?
                Quote: Alex_59
                Nevertheless, 1440 J and 1600 J is not a quarter difference, but 10%

                Apparently you need:
                1. To scratch with a nail on the monitor DE M16 = 1738 J.
                2. Understand that it is customary to compare comparable things. For example, regular (not special) ammunition. With 7N6 DE AK-74 = 1377 J. With 7N10 DE AK-74 = 1416 J. Those. approximately 1400 J.
                Quote: Alex_59
                Manufacturers of body armor put M16 with M885 and Ak-74 with 7N24 in one armor piercing class.

                Have you personally been sent a letter about this?
                Quote: Alex_59
                ut there are discrepancies about the weight of the bullet. 3,56 grams or 4 grams. Well, let's say all the same 4 grams, so be it. Although all manufacturers 5,56x45 weight just specified 3,56.

                Bullet SS109 cartridge M855 weighs 62 grains or 4,02 grams. Cartridge M855 is used in M16A2 and analogues.
                The bullet cartridge M193 weighs 56 grains or 3,56 grams. Cartridge M193 is used in M16A1.

                I won’t read you further. And I will not answer. You are tired of me, you don’t know elementary things, and besides, you are rude.
                1. +2
                  16 November 2016 08: 27
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  I won’t read you further. And I will not answer.

                  What a sorrow. I'll go cry.
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  You are tired of me, you don’t know elementary things, and besides, you are rude.

                  I am not rude. And I don’t know elementary things, but I’m trying to figure it out. He didn’t say that I’m special in shooting. And you arrogantly mock instead of a normal dialogue. This is sad.
                  1. 0
                    16 November 2016 16: 24
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    And you arrogantly mock instead of a normal dialogue. This is sad.

                    I have no such habit. But if you are trying to figure something out, then sort it out. And do not carry nonsense with a categorical look.
                    This is really annoying.
              2. 0
                16 November 2016 01: 45
                If you do not count anything, then the cartridge in the M-16 is rifle, as in a machine gun or in the SVD, and in the AK - the intermediate between the rifle and pistol. This will give an advantage of about 200m as in the Crimean War.
                1. +1
                  16 November 2016 16: 47
                  Quote: Simpsonian
                  If you do not count anything, then the cartridge in the M-16 is rifle, as in a machine gun or in the SVD, and in the AK - the intermediate between the rifle and pistol.

                  Comparison, of course figurative. But in general, in the sense, it is absolutely true.
                  The fact is that the 5,45 cartridge is in the AK-74, it is on the lower boundary of the "intermediate" class. DE AK-74 on a cartridge with a bullet 7N6 = 1377 J.
                  And the border between the carabiner cartridges (the very ones about which neither the ear nor the snout is in runet) and the intermediate, it passes along the DE 1000 foot pounds (1356 J).
                  At the same time, there are often allegations that the 7N6 n / s in the AK-74 900 m / s, this is only in the Manuals. But in fact there is 890 m / s. In this case, the DE will be 1347 Joules, and this is the energy of the carbine cartridge.
                  But we will adhere to the numbers of the Instruction, because This is a DOCUMENT.
                  DE cartridge with a new 7N10 bullet of the order of 1416 J.
                  As for the M16A2, its DE 1738 J (1282 lb-pounds) characterizes the M855 cartridge as a regular intermediate cartridge. Far from the most powerful, but not very weak.
                  Quote: Simpsonian
                  This will give an advantage of about 200m as in the Crimean War.

                  In this case, in fact, not 200, but 100. But it does. In times of local conflict, this may not be of much importance. But in the case of full-scale b / d, this can lead to very bad consequences.
        2. +3
          15 November 2016 14: 08
          Dear, penetration depends on the design of the ammunition. For example, the muzzle energy of the armor-piercing gun BR-540 ML-20 8,8 MJ, for the MBA-60 of 2A46M-5 - about 7,6 MJ, but at the same time armor penetration at 2 km is 7,5 times higher. So it is with 5,45x39 - a higher-quality, higher-quality core. The muzzle energy of 5,56X45 is higher by 20% only in the old 7Н6, which are not armor-piercing and were actively replaced by 7Н10. The AK has excellent accuracy, it’s just slightly higher for the emka, but it affects distances above 400-500 m, where you can’t get from the first shot in a battle, and lightweight small things can lose much in accuracy.
          1. 0
            15 November 2016 19: 08
            Quote: Forest
            Dear, penetration depends on the design of the ammunition.

            This is only one of its (armor penetration) factors. And there are actually a lot of them.
            Quote: Forest
            So with 5,45x39 - a higher-quality, higher-quality core.

            Of course, everything American is bad. Technologically and technically underdeveloped country. This is in RuNet known to all.
            Quote: Forest
            The muzzle energy of 5,56x45 is 20% higher only in old 7H6, which are not armor-piercing and are actively replaced by 7H10.

            Take a close look at this question. Now, if 3,68 g (the average weight of the bullet is 5,45 PP, the GRAU index is 7Н10) is multiplied by 880 m / s, then we get DE 1425 J. I can be wrong, but it seems to me that 1738 J DE M16A2 is more. And just on 22%.
            Quote: Forest
            The AK has excellent accuracy, just the emka is slightly higher, but this affects distances above 400-500 m, where you can’t get from any first sniper in a battle from the first shot, and light small things can lose a lot of accuracy.

            Combined arms combat already begins tightly at 450 m. And the accuracy of the AK-74 is not important. From this today all these "contests" occur.
            1. +2
              15 November 2016 20: 04
              Quote: rjxtufh

              This is only one of its (armor penetration) factors. And there are actually a lot of them.

              And tell me, what kind of wonderful kinetic ammunition ML-20 will break better than uranium BOPS? Probably, the designers did not know that it was possible to rivet pigs out of lead and shoot them, because the energy for armor penetration is the main thing.
              Quote: rjxtufh

              Of course, everything American is bad. Technologically and technically underdeveloped country. This is in RuNet known to all.

              This means that the designers were not tasked with creating such ammunition. With us - it was set, and the army received the necessary.
              Quote: rjxtufh

              Take a close look at this question. Now, if 3,68 g (the average weight of the bullet is 5,45 PP, the GRAU index is 7Н10) is multiplied by 880 m / s, then we get DE 1425 J. I can be wrong, but it seems to me that 1738 J DE M16A2 is more. And just on 22%.

              For 7H10, the minimum initial speed with AK-74 is 900 m / s. It turns out 1490 J. 880 - the smallest of the possible is taken (a bastard killed in the trash, wild frost under -50, a shattered gas outlet). Under ideal conditions, up to 960 m / s. The difference is around 15%, which is clearly less than a quarter.
              Quote: rjxtufh

              Combined arms combat already begins tightly at 450 m. And the accuracy of the AK-74 is not important. From this today all these "contests" occur.

              Combined arms combat begins with a distance at which the weapons of the army can reach. With half a kilometer, a shooting battle begins, when machine guns and Marxman are connected. The Germans in WWII opened fire from a kilometer, but this does not mean that 1 km is the normal combat range for the mauser of rifle units on the offensive. Accuracy in AK is good, it’s a turn, if you don’t pull the machine gun (which is so fond of arrows), crosses the target with an almost straight line.
              1. 0
                15 November 2016 23: 08
                Quote: Forest
                And tell me, what kind of wonderful kinetic ammunition will the ML-20 penetrate better than the uranium BOPS?

                In fact, it is customary to compare the performance of similar ammunition.
                Quote: Forest
                This means that the designers were not tasked with creating such ammunition. With us - it was set, and the army received the necessary.

                Didn’t you get them? No money left? Or crazy? Or is there?
                Quote: Forest
                For 7Н10, the minimum initial speed with AK-74 is 900 m / s

                885-890 m / s. There are no miracles in the world. 900 m / s for the bullet 7Н6.
                Quote: Forest
                It turns out 1490 J.

                It turns out 1416 J.
                Quote: Forest
                880 - the smallest of the possible is taken (a bastard killed in the trash, wild frost at -50, a shattered gas outlet). Under ideal conditions - up to 960 m / s

                Do not fantasize. 960 m / s, this is n / s the speed of a light bullet 7N6 when firing from RPK-74.
                Quote: Forest
                Accuracy in AK is good, it’s a turn, if you don’t pull the machine gun (which is so fond of arrowheads), it crosses the target with an almost straight line.

                There are specific indicators of the accuracy of the AK-74 fire. No epithets like "good", in numbers. And the same figures for M16. The accuracy of the AK-74 fire is noticeably worse.
                1. +1
                  16 November 2016 10: 20
                  Quote: rjxtufh

                  In fact, it is customary to compare the performance of similar ammunition.

                  Well, BISON-8 to 2A43 and BOPS to MK-30. Class one, German penetration in 5-6 times higher, despite the fact that the energies are equal.
                  Quote: rjxtufh

                  Didn’t you get them? No money left? Or crazy? Or is there?

                  From the principle - we will do the unnecessary, but so be it?
                  Quote: rjxtufh

                  885-890 m / s. There are no miracles in the world. 900 m / s for the bullet 7Н6.

                  Under ideal conditions, the 7H6 can reach 970 m / s. At n / a 7Н10 900-920 m / s issues with AK-74. Measured at the beginning of 2000's - the average came out about 915 m / s.
                  Quote: rjxtufh

                  There are specific indicators of the accuracy of the AK-74 fire. No epithets like "good", in numbers. And the same figures for M16. The accuracy of the AK-74 fire is noticeably worse.

                  On the first 100 m, the M16A2 puts bullets in a circle of 9 cm, AK-74 - 10 cm. Prior to 300-400 m, there is almost no difference between M16 and AK-74 when shooting bursts. The praised 3,8 cm on 100 yards arbose give out under ideal conditions.
                  1. 0
                    16 November 2016 16: 51
                    Quote: Forest
                    Under ideal conditions, 7N6 can reach 970 m / s.

                    Then write 1970 m / s. To surprise everyone.
                    Quote: Forest
                    With n / a 7Н10 900-920 m / s gives out with AK-74. Measured in the early 2000s - the average was about 915 m / s.

                    Read the DOCUMENT, i.e. Instruction. 900 m / s is indicated there.
                    Quote: Forest
                    On the first 100 m, M16A2 lays out bullets in a 9 cm circle, AK-74 - 10 cm.

                    And what kind of range is this key, 100 m?
                    Quote: Forest
                    Up to 300-400 m when firing bursts there is almost no difference between the M16 and the AK-74.

                    Well yes. Still what is. And it is from this difference that different contests are being held today.
                    1. 0
                      16 November 2016 20: 33
                      1) Starting with 40's, they put either an average or a slightly underestimated value, so that in any conditions no surprises should be expected from weapons. In terms of data (armor penetration / defense, ballistics), NATO gives average indicators, which is why it comes out several percent lower. This is an example of Mango - so the average armor penetration is 550, but 500 is given as guaranteed.
                      2) What do you dislike about 100 m? Quietly multiply the available values ​​by a different distance, an inaccuracy of about 5-7% will come out. The difference will come at a distance of more than 600 m, where a heavier emka bullet will feel better, but at such a distance it makes no sense at all to conduct targeted fire.
                      3) If there is an opportunity to do something better - why not do it? So M16 is not the main machine in the USA - but Kalx already has advantages over M4. The main requirements now are to equip the weapon with a normal body kit.
                      1. 0
                        16 November 2016 22: 03
                        Quote: Forest
                        Starting from the 40s, they put either an average or a slightly underestimated value, so that in any conditions no surprises should be expected from weapons.

                        This reminds me of "You were deceived, you were given more valuable fur."
                        In fact, I am posting you the tests of 4 AK-74s on the barrel resource.

                        It is clearly seen that there is no stock.
                      2. 0
                        16 November 2016 22: 04
                        Quote: Forest
                        And what do you dislike about 100 m? Quietly multiply the available values ​​by another distance, an inaccuracy of about 5-7% will come out.

                        Accuracy and accuracy of automatic fire.

                        Above is the figure of the diameter of the circle.
                        Below, how many bullets from a line of 20 rounds fell into a circle.
                        300 yards is approximately 274 m.
                      3. 0
                        16 November 2016 22: 06
                        Quote: Forest
                        The difference will come at a distance of more than 600 m, where a heavier emka bullet will feel better

                        Accuracy of fire single fire.
                      4. +1
                        16 November 2016 22: 09
                        Quote: Forest
                        So M16 is not the main machine in the United States

                        There is no concept of "automatic machine" in the USA.
                        And the M16 is the main automatic rifle.
                        Quote: Forest
                        Kalash has advantages over M4

                        This is a weapon for special operations. Not the main army. In some ways, the AK-74 is better. In some ways, worse.
                        Quote: Forest
                        The main requirements now are to equip the weapon with a normal body kit.

                        The main thing is to achieve normal balistic.
      2. 0
        18 November 2016 09: 02
        Stop sculpting the hunchbacked Lesnaya. We have adopted the 7N39 cartridge since 2013 and it has completely different characteristics. This is a cartridge with increased penetration ability.
    3. 0
      20 November 2016 02: 29
      Well here again!
  22. 0
    15 November 2016 01: 46
    I read that before American soldiers were taught to reload M16 reading to themselves verses from verbs like:
    "put it aside, took (a new store), blew (into the mine), knocked on the helmet (with a store), inserted it, clicked."

    so there the procedure was complicated and not at all in 2 movements.
    but it was in the days of Vietnam in real field conditions.
    like this, stones and dust were shaken out.
    I don’t answer for the accuracy of verses and my translation :)
    1. +1
      15 November 2016 16: 30
      Everything was said correctly, it was like that, even in action movies it was met, and on the topic of Vietnam! That’s all the topic, how many seconds the infantryman reloads the store, well, each will have a different approach, each has his own finger motility, agility, habit and experience, these are all statistics, no more, in reality, you always look at the condition of the store and the cartridges in it , for eliminating or minimizing misfires and sticking of a cartridge! A change of the store while continuing to monitor the enemy is partly applicable only in the direction of travel, the offensive, the assault, and in the shelter this is not what, there is a commander of the group, department, which determines the target and gives instructions to the soldiers, as if tracer ammunition and are intended to indicate the purpose Well, and not only! However, not all units fire at the same time, since pauses during reloading can be used by the enemy to change position or calculate enemy positions!
  23. 0
    15 November 2016 13: 27
    Another look at the shops:
    1. +1
      15 November 2016 14: 14
      Here you are, two more flaws about which I did not say.
      Shat shop in the mine. Together with bent or knocked down bends can lead to the sticking of a cartridge.
      Metal latches over plastic will eventually wipe the case.
      The rest is nonsense.
      1. 0
        16 November 2016 17: 49
        A very interesting series of articles, I learned a lot of interesting things. The only remark is few letters. I look forward to the third part. ALREADY THE SECOND DAY WAITING!
        1. +2
          16 November 2016 18: 37
          Sick a little. Excuse me.
          1. 0
            16 November 2016 20: 36
            It happens. Get well soon.
          2. 0
            16 November 2016 20: 50
            By the way, here is a video of comparison tests for accuracy of AR15 and AKM. To be honest, I'm surprised at such a "big" difference.
            1. 0
              16 November 2016 22: 17
              Quote: Sheff333
              by the way, here is a video of comparative tests on the accuracy of AR15

              AR15 and M16A2, these are slightly different weapons. With different performance characteristics. Including for accuracy and accuracy.
              M15A16 can be compared with AR1.
            2. 0
              23 November 2016 11: 04
              Well it is from the stop. There is no doubt a place to be, but as you know, such an emphasis is not likely to be found by an ordinary fighter in battle. Here is a comparison from the rack is another matter.
    2. 0
      15 November 2016 16: 15
      There is less side reel not because of the magazine fastening, but because of the shaft’s length, it’s obvious that the shaft’s length is also so long as to reduce the amount of dirt entering the receiver, since the parts are more fitted and fraught with all the consequences! AK does not have it, so that everything is accessible without removing the receiver cover, and smaller debris is not so critical, again due to its simpler design and open access to this unit indiscriminately of the machine itself!
      1. 0
        16 November 2016 08: 44
        Where did you get these masses for 7H10?
        The mass of the bullet is 3,6 g, its real average speed from 415 mm of the AK barrel is 885 m / s, at +20
        Accordingly, much less in winter
        960 m / s even from RPK-74 will not, well, let 950 m / s can be typed.
        3,68 is the mass of the 7N22 bullet - still find them in the troops
        Despite the efforts, the ballistic coefficient also did not work out particularly large, 5.56x45 with bullets of 70, 75 and 77 grains has a noticeably larger ballistic coefficient, while the power reserve of the cartridge allows them to remain at speeds above 800 m / s

        And the article as a whole is correct, the store is the weakest point of this system. The paradox is that the most reliable stores for the M / AR series are now being launched in Russia by PUFGUN.RU, and the American army, after some experiments, refused to plastic stores in Magpul, and all current army stores are steel (and not at all aluminum;))
        But the stores for the AR came out small and flat, without clinging parts, it’s convenient to wear them;) but at the cost of much less reliability after having missed the AK
  24. 0
    16 November 2016 10: 06
    Quote: rjxtufh

    Right away, the first question, what will be the resource of the trunk? Will the trunks change like gloves?
    I don’t even ask other questions.

    wear and tear, of course, will increase, pressure will rise even within a slightly less than 7.62x39 muzzle energy, but, on the other hand, the caliber is small, the bullet is light, the firing mode is mostly single - where is it anyway? Something has to be paid for the performance improvement, so the barrel will be added to the spare gear with racks
    1. 0
      16 November 2016 16: 55
      Quote: pimen
      firing mode, mainly single

      Mostly automatic. Actually, it was for this that the "little things" were created.
      Self-propelled was a weapon on cartridges with classic bullets. The same AKM, this is a self-loading rifle (into the distance) with the ability to conduct automatic fire (about 100 m).
      1. 0
        16 November 2016 17: 48
        but I thought that from M16 they shoot mostly single. Thanks I'll know.
        But still, let me recall other arguments - less weight or more ammunition, better flatness and penetration at a limited distance - all for an unskilled shooter; because in this particular case of mass infantry weapons, there is a very rational restriction: it is only important for us that up to 400m, and then even the grass does not grow.
        1. 0
          16 November 2016 18: 22
          Quote: pimen
          because in this particular case - of mass infantry weapons, there is a very rational restriction: it is only important for us that up to 400m,

          In general, I agree. But for self-loading weapons 400 m, and for automatic, 450 m.
          1. 0
            16 November 2016 18: 30
            Sorry, what's the difference? (in the sense that 400 is too much). Further 400, only an easel machine gun can work acceptable - do they exist?
            1. 0
              16 November 2016 18: 37
              Quote: pimen
              Sorry, what's the difference? (in the sense that 400 is too much).

              In the number of bullets at a single and automatic fire.
              Therefore, the probability of defeat at 400 and 450 m by different fires is approximately the same.
              Quote: pimen
              Further 400, only an easel machine gun can work acceptable - do they exist?

              More snipers.
              1. 0
                16 November 2016 18: 41
                hell forgot to add but it's not fair
      2. 0
        22 November 2016 17: 46
        Do not confuse a self-loading rifle and an automatic, these are fundamentally different things! AK-automatic rifle (automatic). AVT automatic rifle, can fire both single and continuous shots, SVT self-loading rifle can fire only single shots! It’s not difficult, the difference is obvious!
  25. +1
    16 November 2016 15: 06
    In Vietnam, experienced "ji-ai", before recharging their small-caliber, "professionally (after all, do we remember the" characteristic movement "of" Lugers "users? wink ) "tapped the magazine (as far as I know, then 20-rounds were standard) on the helmet to ensure the correct position of the cartridges in it ... this is also the time!
    I like the article, I look forward to continuing! wink
    1. +2
      17 November 2016 08: 25
      Quote: pishchak
      tapped the store (as far as I know, then the 20-chargers were standard) on the helmet,

      In fact, they did what the AK shutter rammer does.
      Perfectly.
  26. 0
    18 November 2016 08: 17
    As for the small parts in the M 16, this is not entirely true, of course, they are present when the shutter is completely disassembled, but in parts that are not completely disassembled, it is no more than AK parts. Stores for M 16 are inflated for long-term storage in running condition (this applies to standard metal stores)
  27. 0
    22 November 2016 11: 19
    Quote: professor


    I have a girl. hi

    Is it jammed?
    1. 0
      10 December 2016 13: 21
      What diagnosis would Dr. Freud give to this "professor"? laughing
  28. +1
    22 November 2016 17: 32
    Professor,
    Well, after you present a screen of the fact that you had a girl!))))
  29. +1
    22 November 2016 18: 15
    Professor,
    Charter of the internal service of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation
    (approved by presidential decree of November 10, 2007 No. 1495)
    article 67 "Out of order, officers can address each other not only by military rank, but also by name and patronymic. In everyday life, officers are allowed to use the affirmative expression" the officer's word "and when parting with each other, they are allowed to speak instead of the words" goodbye " "I have the honor." Well, I hope you won't have the audacity to have yourself in public anymore !? Otherwise, it should already be a shame, in the Israeli army they generally turn to you with officers, this is alien to you !!! I have everything, I hope you already shut up and do not talk nonsense to the masses ...
  30. 0
    10 December 2016 10: 28
    Interesting article. Conclusion: "Russian means the best"
  31. 0
    2 March 2023 14: 21
    Hello! I would also add about the obligatory tapping with a full magazine on the helmet on the head before inserting it into the M14