AK vs AR. Part I

160
AK vs AR. Part I


Comparison of Russian and American assault rifles through the eyes of an American soldier:



"It weapon it seemed to all something of a sling and a bow of primitive savages, so simple it was arranged and trimmed ... "


Joe Montenya (Joe Mantegna), host of the TV channel "OUTDOR", about the M16 rifle:

"She is considered the most recognizable weapon in the world."


According to the degree of abuse of those around the Kalashnikov assault rifle, the second place after the myth about the involvement of Hugo Schmeisser in its development is the theme of opposing the American M16 rifle. More precisely, AR-15 and all its subsequent clones. As with Schmeisser, in this matter there is a bunch of conjectures, made-up "facts", as well as many eyewitnesses and witnesses, independent and famous experts. The main point in this opposition is reliability. But what is it?

When we talk about reliability, we usually rely on the experience of using samples that have already been manufactured and tested, as a result of which flaws in the design are revealed, the technical process is improved, the weapon becomes more reliable. This is the norm. But when designing from scratch, if you do not take into account the advantages and disadvantages of prototype designs, do not know the basics of the reliability of the mechanisms of the engineering industry to which the development applies - this is not the norm. American aviation designer Eugene Stoner, it seems, can be easily written in the category of "non-normalized". Otherwise, there is no way to explain the birth of such a weapon misunderstanding as the American M16 rifle.

History

In technogenesis, as well as in biogenesis, the laws that were formulated by Darwin work at the stage of evolution. The species is improved by the natural selection of the best mutations of individuals. The more individuals and more mutations, the more likely the emergence of the most enduring species. In the history of the development of an automaton for an intermediate cartridge, a variety of individuals (constructions) and mutations (models and their modifications) were provided. Of the fifteen samples won the best. At the same time, informational openness was ensured by competition, when participants could study the designs of competitors, members of the commission, by test results, developed technical proposals for implementation in various samples. The result of the work of this collective brain was the selection of the truly most advanced design. It remains only to state that in the present conditions it is no longer possible to repeat this.

So the emergence of such highly reliable weapons as a Kalashnikov assault rifle is, first of all, the work of natural law, and such personalities as Kalashnikov, Zaitsev, Bulkin, Deikin and many others did everything possible to not violate this law.

In the history of M16, there was no diversity of mutations. There was a complete lobbying and protectionism of individual individuals and generals. In one of the propaganda American films on the creation of M16, it is explicitly said that when the question arose of developing weapons for a new small-caliber cartridge, the old and respected American gunsmiths from Springfield Armory directly answered that they would need four years to do so.

But there was one comrade who requested six months to finalize his unsuccessful AR-10 design. They said to him: "Come on." So when redesigning the hunting cartridge appeared SS109 (5.56x45), from AR-10 turned AR-15, adopted under the brand name M16, and the center for the development and production of firearms “Springfield Armory” closed in 1968 year.

Even more ancient history

When the neophytes say that Herr Schmeisser laid some foundations somewhere, which all advanced weapon thought still uses, they are not so far from the truth. Sturmgever is a direct prototype for M16. And not only by constructive heritage. Assault rifle is a translation of German Sturmgewer, which in the language of the native aspens means “assault rifle”. Constructive Teutonic heritage, if digging thoroughly, is found much earlier, even in MP-18. This is a transverse latch design of the store, which locks it with its protrusion in the recess of the side wall. In the American rifle, it has changed slightly.

Along with the latch and passed the method of installing the store in the mine.

The next prototype was the MP-38 / 40. From the point of view of evolution, it was a revolutionary model, although it was slightly spoiled by Schmeisser’s buggy store. The stamped body of the receiver and the functional division of the weapon into two parts: the upper one, containing the barrel and the bolt group, and the lower one with the USM, connected by means of a sliding pin or on a hinge.

The method of installation of the bolt group in the tubular casing (installed from the end) was transferred to the sturmgever, and from it to M16. Directly by the Sturmgevev decision, which was transferred to the American rifle, there was a return spring in the butt and a protective curtain opposite the window of the liner extraction.

Thus, from the totality of all the signs, it is obvious which designer was influenced by what designer when he created his rifle. German Stg-44 is a direct prototype of M16.



This obvious fact is not noted by anyone, but it is full of statements that Kalashnikov was impressed by the design of the Teutonic genius, or even Schmeisser himself had a hand in the creation of AK.

It seems a bit strange that an attempt to prove the inconsistency of these allegations based on the use of different ways of locking the bolt in AK and Shturmgever, when there are enough facts and documents refuting this. General V. G. Fedorov, in his work “On the tendencies of change of small arms models of foreign armies according to the experience of the Second World War” in 1944, wrote: “From the point of view of design qualities, the German automatic rifle doesn’t deserve special attention”.

Indeed, there are enough flaws in the stormtrooper. One of them is a stamped receiver cover. The point here is not in technology, but in the design itself. If you strike a cap on the AK, and it is deformed in such a way that it will impede the movement of the slide frame, you can simply remove it. What happens if the same happens with the body of the Sturgevever or M16? The same as with the ingress of a sufficient amount of dirt between the slide frame and the housing. In the best case, the energy of the reel of the frame will be lost, followed by a whole chain of probabilities from missing a cartridge to a shutter not closing. At worst - her wedge.

Gruner, Sudayev and Kalashnikov perfectly showed how to make reliable stamped designs in the weapon.

About reliability

The first thing that the production faces after the sample has been tested and transferred to the series is the development of technological processes. Not always the part cut by the file can be reproduced in a cheap and massive way. On the choice of production technology, materials, creation of a quality control system, the reliability of weapons depends not less, if not more, but to an absolute majority this topic is incomprehensible and uninteresting. Therefore, we’ll dwell on what you can see and touch with your hands, on the design features of AR and AK.

There is such a thing - entropy. These are all possible system states that may occur during its operation. They, in turn, depend on the number of elements of the system and the variety of their interactions with each other.

Failure is one of these conditions. The greater the entropy of the system, the higher the likelihood that sooner or later it will come such a state when it can not fully or partially perform its functions.

The main suppliers of entropy to the system are dirt, garbage, weather conditions and fools. For the latter, a whole scientific section has been created, which is called “Foolproof”. But no matter how perfect the defense, it will always lose, because a fool is perfect by definition. A striking example is the crash of the 2 Proton-M launch vehicle on July 2013, when the connectors of sensors with protection against incorrect connection were simply hammered with a sledgehammer. As for dirt and debris, this is the first thing that a gunsmith imagines at the point of contact between two parts.

The task of the designer is to create a system with the least entropy. This was superbly understood by Soviet Army Sergeant Mikhail Kalashnikov and poorly imagined by an American graduate engineer Eugene Stoner.

Extension here.
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  1. +24
    11 November 2016 06: 43
    The first part is promising, plus to the author! good
    1. +22
      11 November 2016 09: 19
      The article is good, plus.
      There is a small inaccuracy:
      So when remaking from a hunting cartridge appeared SS109 (5.56x45)

      When redesigned in 1957, the M193 appeared, the bullet of which, during operation, showed insufficient penetration and stability in flight. In this regard, tests carried out by NATO countries of rifles and cartridges showed the superiority of the Belgian SS109 for barrels with a reduced rifling pitch. In 1980 this cartridge was standardized as the 5,56mm NATO cartridge (.223 Remington). hi
      1. +21
        11 November 2016 14: 12
        Thanks for the comment and for all the future. God sees, to be so consistent, the article would never have been completed. On the other hand, this gives cause for comment. And only everyone benefits from this. Type of joint creativity. If only to insults did not reach. Tomorrow should be the second part, it is already in moderation. The third is almost complete and requires only a corrective normalization, will be released on Monday-Tuesday. But I don’t know from the fourth yet, but I’ll try by Friday.
        1. +8
          11 November 2016 15: 30
          I will leave insults to all kinds of idiots.
          Andrey, I’m not a critic - I simply respect those who deliver the right information! Ready to cooperate, not to scuff! drinks
    2. avt
      +3
      11 November 2016 10: 30
      Quote: ydjin
      The first part is promising, plus to the author!

      good A good syllable, clearly and cheerfully outlined the topic .... well, at least it started.
      Quote: bouncyhunter
      The article is good, plus.

      Similarly.
      Quote: Bayonet
      Be that as it may, but the M16 and its subsequent modifications occupy the second, after AK, place in terms of prevalence in the world.

      So what ? How does advertising and other marketing-distributor-dealer-dealing affect the performance characteristics and design features of a particular unit? Moreover, the author outlined
      So the emergence of such highly reliable weapons as a Kalashnikov assault rifle is, first of all, the work of natural law, and such personalities as Kalashnikov, Zaitsev, Bulkin, Deikin and many others did everything possible to not violate this law.
      In the story with M16, there was no variety of mutations. There was continuous lobbying and protectionism of individual individuals and generals.
      under a separate heading - HISTORY request
    3. +8
      11 November 2016 11: 02
      And what is she good at? Pretentiousness, illiteracy and hitting the M-16? Well, what to say, well done author, in these categories, the winner
      1. +10
        11 November 2016 12: 19
        What is illiteracy, explain. Galil is much less like the M-16 than the AK. Or are your constructors "pretentious" too?
        1. +3
          15 November 2016 13: 52
          to be precise. it doesn’t look like an M-16 at all. just a non-copy of AK
          1. 0
            15 January 2017 11: 48
            You are mistaken, just very licensed, only through Finland. Galil is a very brought to mind AKM.
      2. +18
        11 November 2016 12: 23
        Quote: Pimply
        And what is she good at? Pretentiousness, illiteracy and hitting the M-16? Well, what to say, well done author, in these categories, the winner

        But if there was a praise of the M-16, the article would be competent and not pretentious ...
    4. +4
      11 November 2016 17: 28
      "A striking example is the crash of the Proton-M launch vehicle on July 2, 2013, when the connectors of the sensors, which were protected against incorrect connection, were simply clogged with a sledgehammer." The connector cannot be hammered with a sledgehammer without breaking the connector. If someone managed to score, this is no longer, but a saboteur.
      1. +5
        11 November 2016 23: 41
        Quote: papas-57
        when the connectors of the sensors, which are protected against incorrect connection, were simply clogged with a sledgehammer '

        I want to ask ... the author of this imperishable, has an idea about these connectors, or did he not hold anything in addition to the headphone jack?
        1. +5
          12 November 2016 03: 48
          Caneca. Well, that’s the official version. and yes, easily breaking the protection against the fool, you can insert it incorrectly.
          from the age of 14, I managed to tighten the nut rather than tear the thread or the head of the bolt instead.
        2. +6
          15 November 2016 09: 20
          > I would like to ask ... the author of this imperishable, has an idea about these connectors, or, in addition to the headphone jack, did not hold anything in his hands?

          I've seen how the old power connectors from IDE hard drives did not turn on correctly - downhill, although it would seem impossible. But no scrap against scrap!
  2. +6
    11 November 2016 07: 04
    The first thing production faces after a sample has been tested and transferred to a series is the development of technological processes. Not always a file cut out a file can be reproduced in a cheap and mass way. From the choice of production technology, materials, the creation of a quality control system, the reliability of weapons depends not less, if not more,

    I completely agree with the author. Sometimes, in the process of technological testing adopted for service, only the appearance of the sample remains, and even then not always, and the details of the mechanism change beyond recognition. See Bolotin D.N. Soviet small arms. He describes since the details were modified, removed, added to many weapons samples during production. As an example, you can take the PPD, practically this is the technological development of the model from the first adopted PPD-34 sample to the last PPD-40.
  3. +5
    11 November 2016 07: 44
    Be that as it may, but the M16 and its subsequent modifications occupy the second, after AK, place in terms of prevalence in the world.
    1. +6
      11 November 2016 09: 40
      It is more a matter of lobbying rather than technological superiority ...
      it is more significant that NATO countries preferred ... and now they prefer weapons of their own development ...
    2. +4
      11 November 2016 11: 47
      Nope, according to the prevalence in the world among units for an intermediate cartridge, AK is the only leader, and the M-16 is a rifle unit for a rifle cartridge 5.45-45, it is adapted and not intermediate, and here, with a shaft and a circle, you don’t have enough fingers to bend
      1. +1
        11 November 2016 12: 09
        M 16 is a weapon chambered for 5.56 by 45 and not 5.45 by 45 mount, you are a theoretician and the Americans themselves have always called it intermediate. The hunting cartridge from which the combat for the M 16 rifle was made is 223 Rem (Remington).
        1. +3
          11 November 2016 12: 15
          radish horseradish is not sweeter, but do you know what happens in mechanisms when a harsh environment gets ??? Do you know the principle of operation of the M-16 automation? and what is the primary cause of cartridge misalignment? Nuka NEGORE theoretician
          1. +3
            11 November 2016 15: 09
            Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
            harsh environment

            Hard Friday)
    3. +1
      11 November 2016 13: 00
      Have you heard about FN FAL?
      And how M-16 and others like take off against such a weapon?
      1. +3
        11 November 2016 14: 03
        Have you heard about FN FAL?
        if it is addressed to me, and how much is it in the world ?????
      2. +1
        12 November 2016 03: 57
        VIK1711 to create a perfect machine is absolutely no problem for any country. the problem is price, manufacturability.
        refinement of the AR 16 at a cost of $ 10 leads him to a reliability almost equal to Kalash.
        1. 0
          12 November 2016 17: 12
          Quote: Yegor village
          refinement of the AR 16 at a cost of $ 10 leads him to a reliability almost equal to Kalash.

          AR reliability has never been worse than Kalash reliability. And without any modifications.
          1. 0
            15 November 2016 13: 55
            from my own practice - worse
    4. +2
      14 November 2016 12: 43
      Be that as it may, but the M16 and its subsequent modifications occupy the second, after AK, place in terms of prevalence in the world.

      This is most likely not true - M16 in 4th place - after AK, FN FAL and G3.
      Least of all you can trust Colt's Manufacturing Company - for a long time it does not own a production license and the figure of 8 million on its website is very indicative.
      The production of all types of FN FAL and G3 (with and without a license) has clearly exceeded 10 million each for a long time.
      However, all three of them for AK & Company still can not keep up.
      And the production of all four continues with might and main.
  4. +4
    11 November 2016 07: 47
    ..... Certified Engineer Eugene Stoner. a guy in short pants, compared with Mikhail Timofeevich.
    1. +14
      11 November 2016 08: 13
      [quote = bionik]..... Certified Engineer Eugene Stoner. a guy in short pants, compared with Mikhail Timofeevich. [/ quote
      On a trip to the United States, Mikhail Timofeevich met and made friends with Eugene Stoner, the “father” of the M-16 automatic rifle. They even shot a couple. Stoner - from AKM, Kalashnikov - from M-16.
      1. raf
        +4
        11 November 2016 21: 00
        Designers appreciate and respect other people's work! And you keep screaming that AK shit!
      2. +5
        12 November 2016 21: 22
        [quote = Bayonet] [quote = bionik]..... Certified Engineer Eugene Stoner. a guy in short pants, compared with Mikhail Timofeevich. [/ quote
        On a trip to the United States, Mikhail Timofeevich met and made friends with Eugene Stoner, the “father” of the M-16 automatic rifle. They even shot a couple. Stoner - from AKM, Kalashnikov - from M-16.
        [/ Quote]
        Two men met, drank 100 grams and as a result, the M-16 was no worse than Kalash. Well, the logic is Vasss sir.
  5. +10
    11 November 2016 07: 48
    Mala letters. Asil quickly.
    According to the text, it is a good start, in which, however, there is a lot of bias. Stoner is bad! - direct and repeated text. It would be better if there was the main idea first - history, technology, problems. And then "the stoner is wrong, but the lion." In its current form, it looks like propaganda.
    1. +6
      11 November 2016 14: 21
      Show me in the article where I call Stoner "bad"?
      1. 0
        12 November 2016 04: 00
        the essence of your text ... at least the fact that he prolapsed his imperfect automaton ...
      2. +2
        13 November 2016 03: 03
        You do not call bad, but the article gives away some Kaptsovschina - you immediately feel that the author has already drawn conclusions, and the argument has not yet been given. Accordingly, taught by some other authors of the site :), readers expect that now the facts will begin to be adjusted to the opinion of the author. So a situation arises when there is nothing to object, and a false sense of the author’s wrong is present :))
  6. +3
    11 November 2016 08: 47
    Well written, thanks to the author and big + for the article. An article about M-16 once came across a long time ago, from it I remembered that the first cartridge from the store almost always skewed, for this they made a special send button - how could the designer have done this? Here you have weapons, about endurance and unpretentiousness in general I am silent, but in fact weapons were created for the army, not for a shooting gallery.
    1. +2
      11 November 2016 11: 07
      Quote: uskrabut
      special send button

      "Proofer", but wink
    2. +3
      11 November 2016 11: 53
      But weapons were created for the army, not for the shooting gallery.
      just for the shooting gallery, or rather for general use-DUAL PURPOSE, the forcing in the aircraft mustache began precisely on the basis of these goals, which was ours and ours, but that's all, but it’s uncomfortable to get gray on two chairs, that's what happened-M-16 for unadapted dirt
      1. 0
        11 November 2016 15: 13
        Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
        not suitable for dirt

        Mud is needed for dirt, and weapons like cleaning, caressing and lubrication
        1. +1
          12 November 2016 04: 04
          Does it hone the hitter that it loves so much where to find so many good people? and the problem of the human factor increases exponentially from the amount of time in battles.
    3. +2
      11 November 2016 16: 06
      Not a button, but a cartridge rammer
      which fundamentally changes the whole concept of automatic weapons
    4. +5
      12 November 2016 23: 01
      .
      Quote: uskrabut
      An article about M-16 once came across a long time ago, from it I remembered that the first cartridge from the store almost always skewed, for this they made a special send button - how could the designer have done this?


      used m-16 for 3 years in the service at the IDF. the first cartridge almost never warped. warping happened sometimes but randomly and always through the fault of a deformed aluminum store and not a machine gun

      ps "a special button for sending" no one has ever used it because it didn’t do anything useful
      1. +5
        12 November 2016 23: 18
        I confirm - the push-button ratchet rammer of the M16 bolt carrier in case the bolt did not reach its closed position was added to the design of the rifle purely formally due to the cries of the representatives of the lobby of 7,62x51 mm type rifles, but how can the bolt be closed in case of its failure under the action of the return spring "(since the M16 is equipped with a bolt handle acting on it only when retracted).

        The correct (non-lethal) action of the shooter when the M16 shutter is not received is the jerking of the shutter and the supply of a new cartridge to the chamber, since the arrow is completely unclear the reasons for the non-profit (indiscriminately rifle) - either because of the cartridge, or because of dirt in the chamber. An attempt to force a cartridge through a rammer in the latter case can lead to rupture of the barrel.
  7. +7
    11 November 2016 09: 00
    The arms concern has problems with the development of new machine guns, since they started singing about reliability and that fools will not break it. That is, initially the author and the like are sure that the Russian soldier is not a distant mind, so do you think? In the world of Kalash, they have already played enough and are moving on to more modern small arms. In Israel, for example, they ran with Galil (processed Kalash of their own production) and switched to M-16. There are still some Galilas in Israel, but they produce it only for export. Now they have the armaments in arms, and they even adopted a double-barreled assault rifle, the birobidzhan snake, laughing I can’t pronounce the name.
    1. +1
      11 November 2016 10: 01
      Dogs bark, the wind wears. Izhmash works.
    2. +6
      11 November 2016 10: 36
      Israel switched to M16 only because the cost of galil was higher than the free delivery of M16 from US curators.
      PS And in Israel there is a ruzhzho. firing from around the corner - that’s where the breakthrough in weapons is. Well, like everything that was done by the children of Sinai :))) laughing
      1. +2
        11 November 2016 11: 56
        ipio mother, so what's the problem ????
      2. +1
        11 November 2016 12: 28
        Quote: Jackking
        Israel switched to M16 only because the cost of galil was higher than the free delivery of M16 from US curators.
        PS And in Israel there is a ruzhzho. firing from around the corner - that’s where the breakthrough in weapons is. Well, like everything that was done by the children of Sinai :))) laughing

        Why are the children of Sinai? The first such weapon appeared in the Wehrmacht, and then nozzles and weapons for firing appeared in the fortified areas.
      3. +2
        11 November 2016 13: 28
        Jews are greedy, for the sake of profit they don’t take care of their soldiers at all, they took such a frank guano .... request
        1. +4
          11 November 2016 14: 52
          Quote: Free Wind
          Jews who are greedy

          Not really yours! May God grant everyone that they think of their soldiers like that!
        2. +3
          11 November 2016 16: 53
          Sarcasm if that
      4. +4
        11 November 2016 13: 40
        Quote: Jackking
        PS And in Israel there is a ruzhzho. firing from around the corner - that’s where the breakthrough in weapons is. Well, like all that is done by the children of Sinai

        Well done! Let the heroes, or rather fools, substitute their forehead, and they calmly from around the corner!smile
        1. +1
          12 November 2016 16: 53
          Ask where they got this from.
      5. 0
        11 November 2016 15: 30
        Quote: Jackking
        Israel switched to M16 only due to the fact that the cost of galil was higher

        Plus the soldiers are happy. Galil was heavy on reviews.
        1. 0
          15 November 2016 14: 02
          "short" by almost a kilogram - the shoulder pulled back bless you
    3. +2
      11 November 2016 11: 15
      Initially, this weapon was supposed to equip conscripts, as well as quick weapons mobilization reserve and all others. Those. the simplicity of its construction and reconciliation were one of the criteria. It is really important when, say, a militia who did not have the opportunity to hold a weapon in his hands, quickly learns to shoot and serve it from him.

      And Galil on the basis of the Finnish clone AK, EMNIP ...
      1. +5
        11 November 2016 11: 36
        Actually, the Finns were sold a license to produce AK with a milled receiver, when in the USSR they learned how to make high-quality stamped ones. Already, the Israelis bought the license from the Finns and began to produce Galil on its basis.
        And the beginning of the article is quite interesting. In any case, not overloaded with technical terms.
        1. 0
          11 November 2016 18: 33
          so, then my sclerosis is not so bad winked thanks for clarification hi
    4. +1
      15 November 2016 14: 00
      Galil was replaced by Tabor, if that. infantrymen walked with the M-16, and where there was a lot of gras and dust (for example, tankers) they used Galil, who has now been replaced by Tavor
  8. +11
    11 November 2016 09: 09
    The main suppliers of entropy to the system are dirt, debris, weather conditions and fools.

    I’ll hang it on the wall in the form of a poster !!!!!!!!! THANK!!!!!!!!!
    A very interesting article ... in particular, finally (for the first time in my memory) they showed where the legs of the M-16 "grow" from ... very funny, especially against the background of a host of articles telling about the copying of the stormgower by Kalashnikov, the genius of Schmeisser, etc. ...
    1. +1
      11 November 2016 15: 48
      Yeah, especially the pearl about trash. You might think candy wrappers soldiers pop into the receiver of their machine guns.
      1. +7
        11 November 2016 15: 59
        I am excusable ... I served as a plumber ... an episode at the shooting range - a shot once and a massive refusal by the Kalash to continue shooting ... massive !!!! those. everyone who is in position !!!! the reason is us morons ... when cleaning the trunks, they put an oiled rag in ... in general, where the gas pipe adjoins the trunk ... and of course they didn’t remove it ... and of course the automatics didn’t work ... so it's about nothing for candy wrappers ...
  9. +3
    11 November 2016 09: 46
    Good start to the cycle !!! I look forward to continuing ....... and continuing to debunk myths! Thank you.
  10. +6
    11 November 2016 09: 47
    Good article ... especially pleased:
    ... by the totality of all the signs, it is obvious which designer was under the influence of which designer when he created his rifle. The German Stg-44 is a direct prototype of the M16 ...

    This is for our analysts with the scent of liberalism ... the bullet in the debate about where it came from and went AK ...
  11. +1
    11 November 2016 10: 02
    The author decided to create 368 - the proof of the Pythagorean theorem.
    1. +1
      11 November 2016 11: 40
      Your arguments are in the studio.
      1. +1
        11 November 2016 13: 23
        Arguments of what? That the Pythagorean theorem has xnumx proof? Or arguments that most experts did not hold either one or the other?
  12. +1
    11 November 2016 10: 19
    Yes, I would like more pictures, where the main differences are comparatively shown.
  13. +7
    11 November 2016 10: 19
    Quote: Andrey Kulikov
    Comparison of Russian and American assault rifles through the eyes of an American soldier:

    M16, this, unlike the AK, is not an assault (weakened army), but a full-fledged army rifle. Americans didn’t massively launch assault rifles. In view of their apparent unnecessary for the army. Some kind of surrogate assault rifle in their army was the LOST THOMPSON SMG on a .45 ACP + R cartridge.
    Quote: Andrey Kulikov
    There is no other way to explain the emergence of such a weapon misunderstanding as the American M16 rifle.

    PPTs. No comment. And what kind of "publications" you can not find in the Russian Internet.
    1. +10
      11 November 2016 11: 58
      Quote: rjxtufh
      M16, unlike AK, is not an assault (weakened army), but a full-fledged army rifle. Americans didn’t massively launch assault rifles. In view of their apparent unnecessary for the army.

      The assault ... army ... Yes, even call the AK-eye - it doesn’t change the essence. What’s the point? In the length of the trunk. And here's the thing. M16 is 510mm, Ak-74 is 372mm, and (attention!) M4 is 370mm. But this is a preamble. And the ambition is that in the state of HBCT, to which the United States has recently switched, it is necessary to have the 3942 M4 carbine and zero (ZERO!) M16 rifles. Alas and ah, the Americans, after a long ordeal, came to the conclusion that the barrel length and dimensions adopted in the AK are much more universal and useful, and switched to M4, which (suddenly!) In dimensions is closer to AK than ever.
      1. +2
        11 November 2016 12: 31
        don’t drive the blizzard, the gas outlet at M4 became normal and not in the receiver, that's all, that’s Kalashov’s scheme, so the Jews didn’t have to fence the garden with Galilov, everything came as it should,. you are like boobies of the king of heaven, ipio mother
        1. 0
          11 November 2016 15: 45
          Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
          do not drive the blizzard, the M4 gas vent has become normal and not in the receiver

          And when did he become normal in the M4? As Americans ran with direct and run.
          1. +1
            11 November 2016 16: 26
            Quote: Chtononibrator
            Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
            do not drive the blizzard, the M4 gas vent has become normal and not in the receiver

            And when did he become normal in the M4? As Americans ran with direct and run.

            And why is this direct gas outlet not normal?
            With a piston, cleaner ... yes ... with a silencer, shoot more comfortably - fewer combustion products fly back ... but this is where the pluses end.
      2. 0
        11 November 2016 21: 40
        Quote: Alex_59
        What’s the point? In the length of the trunk.

        In the range of effective destruction (DEP) of the target. An assault rifle (depending on its type) 300-350 m. An army rifle (depending on its type) 400-450 m.
        Quote: Alex_59
        and switched to the M4, which (suddenly!) in size is close to AK, as never before.

        They never even planned to cross. M4, this is a weapon for special operations. And it’s not at all the main army, like the M16.
        Barrel length, this is generally nonsense in your performance.
      3. 0
        19 November 2016 11: 56
        The barrel length of all modifications of full-sized AK (AK, AKM, AK-74, AK-103, 107,108) - 415 mm
        AKS-74U barrel length - 210 mm
        Barrel length - AK-102, 104,105 - 314 mm
    2. 0
      11 November 2016 12: 16
      IMHO, can classify a new weapon.
      Let's say there are 7.62x 51/54 main rifle cartridges. An automatic weapon with the option of firing bursts is simply called an assault rifle.
      And what's lower is 7.62-simply automatic.
      1. 0
        11 November 2016 12: 53
        and maybe like Zhetesov’s sleeveless, then we need a new classification
        1. 0
          11 November 2016 13: 02
          Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
          and maybe like Zhetesov’s sleeveless, then we need a new classification

          Well this is how it goes smile The Germans did the same sleeveless. Dead end branch.
          1. +2
            11 November 2016 13: 42
            no, not a dead end, with modern technology for the quality of the material for locking the barrel ....... this is what the doctor ordered, especially since Dvoryaninov’s achievements were good in the 70s, when I walked under the table, but ... .For example, my considerations for small arms ammunition, the layout is simple
            1. 0
              11 November 2016 13: 52
              Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
              .that is what the doctor ordered,

              It is unlikely that the cost of mass production of cartridge cases is already low. And then you need to deploy and manufacture weapons.
              And so, here we are building a cartridge factory by Canadians. It seems that the state is small, there should be less weapons in warehouses, it’s easier to switch to another caliber, for example 6.5x42. But 5.45x39 will be produced, because of the main AK-74 weapon and because of that that in warehouses more than a billion rounds of ammunition.
            2. +1
              11 November 2016 14: 07
              no, not a dead end, with modern technology for the quality of the material for locking the barrel ....... this is what the doctor ordered, especially since Dvoryaninov’s achievements were good in the 70s, when I walked under the table, but ... .For example, my thoughts on small arms ammunition

              your sleeveless ammunition (the one in the cut) will not be bad at a close static target without an armor, no more
              1. +3
                11 November 2016 14: 28
                at Dvoryaninov pierced 20 mm of steel at a distance of 100 meters, then they considered it an excess cartridge, on the one I provided, this parameter was increased due to the dual-mode ammunition engine
                1. 0
                  11 November 2016 14: 42
                  I have no idea what Dvoryaninov had there, but:
                  firstly, the caliber - the smaller the faster the bullet, the larger the greater the powder charge - the dilemma is transformed into a larger size
                  secondly, the dual-mode engine means lower initial speed and geometrically larger (with standard) ammunition
                  thirdly, the design of a "hollow" bullet, which cannot have a decent penetration
                  on the plus side, you can call lower returns, the lack of an ejector and a higher rate of fire
                  1. +3
                    11 November 2016 15: 30
                    the calculations of the bullet’s flight show very, very good indicators (all the more so in practice), I believe that you went to school in vain, and moreover you didn’t have an NVP, so here, I explain that the maximum range from an open sight (whole = front sight) no more than 400 meters, this is the zone of combat contact, then you just won’t get anywhere without optics, and most importantly, you need acceleration, but here .... primary fuel gives acceleration in the barrel along the rifling giving a gyroscopic moment and voila, the second fuel gets a speed of up to 1200 meters per second, there are about 400 meters a munition priodoleet for how many seconds ???? count me go smoke
                    1. 0
                      11 November 2016 15: 47
                      I don’t even know, a cartridge (bullet), 7.62 caliber, 10-12 cm long, and maybe more, taking into account the obviously greater (to the standard 7.62x54) bullet weightwhat
                      1. +2
                        11 November 2016 19: 30
                        no worries, the low-impulse cartridge SP6 has been used for 40 years, and the weight of the bullet is 18 grams, and nothing, it’s all in the brains, then Bizh, they swarmed the topic of the Schaub tank in the tower, but there’s ARMATA, well, in shooting identity something needs to be changed, however the situation
                  2. +1
                    13 November 2016 07: 19
                    Quote: pimen
                    firstly, the caliber - the smaller the faster the bullet, the larger the greater the powder charge - the dilemma is transformed into a larger size

                    Bullets are usually compared by their muzzle energy. And the ballistic coefficient. And "faster than a bullet" is just unnecessary wear on the barrel, which affects its durability.
      2. 0
        11 November 2016 21: 51
        Quote: marshes
        Let's say there are 7.62x 51/54 main rifle cartridges. An automatic weapon with the option of firing bursts is simply called an assault rifle.

        Rifle cartridges are. But where does the individual automatic weapon? Such cartridges for a COLLECTIVE automatic weapon.
        As for the "automatic weapon", then the figs. There are a million of them, from SFR to SMG (and that's just at the department level).
        Assault rifles, this is an intermediate position. Between full-fledged army rifles (M16) and submachine gun carbines (M2 Carbine or SMG Thompson on a pre-war cartridge .45 ACP). Surprised? You will have to wonder more than once. The Runet is quite behind on the subject of small arms.
        For reference, I note, submachine guns, this is an intermediate position between submachine guns and automatic rifles.
        1. 0
          30 November 2016 20: 14
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Thompson's SMG on the pre-war .45 ACP cartridge

          Then specify that before the first world ...
  14. +3
    11 November 2016 10: 28
    In a foreign military review of 75 or 76 years, an article was published about the medical practice of M-16 rifles from Colt. They took a batch of 10000 rifles of the same production period, 10 copies were arbitrarily withdrawn from the batch. Then, after complete disassembly, parts of the 10 rifles were mixed and a new assembly was made of the mixed parts. Then a practical shooting revealed the number of delays and failures when firing. When exceeding a certain number of delays, the entire batch of 10000 rifles was not accepted. When I first picked up the M-16 I was delighted with the workmanship of this beautiful piece of iron. But the slender shutter with a lot of jewelry made of military stops, side rammer cartridge, diopter sight disappointed. Native AKM as a true friend, but the machine gun is still better!
    1. +3
      11 November 2016 12: 00
      on x, seven is better, there are more variations
    2. +2
      11 November 2016 13: 22
      I once read something similar about the state acceptance of Mosin rifles in tsarist Russia.))
      1. +2
        11 November 2016 13: 56
        I have not met. Or maybe I just forgot. And there are so many interesting things around! And shooting from Mosinsky is more interesting than reading about him. Especially with a tracer - like a laser and an ax at the same time.
  15. +7
    11 November 2016 11: 08
    With all due respect to self-taught, they always stood behind highly educated design engineers and competent technologists, who embodied the ideas of self-taught in a workable mass-replicated model. Even if at the same time most of the merits were attributed to self-taught.
  16. +3
    11 November 2016 11: 43
    "Therefore, let's focus on what you can see and touch with your hands - on the design features of AR and AK", - where is the author settled on? laughing

    The article is another journalist's opus about how stupid engineer Stone was and what a genius the peasant Kalashnikov was, although it has long been known that the AK was created by designer Alexander Zaitsev. Strictly speaking, the Kalashnikov concern will not be successful until then, until it changes its brand - it is impossible to get anything new from the designers in order to then hand over the authorship to the peasants from the village of Gadyukino.

    The name of small arms is a moral incentive for the designer, which can only be replaced with large cash fees, which are also not observed in domestic practice. An exception is the payment to Sergey Mosin of the Great Mikhailovsky Prize and the Grand Prix at the World Exhibition in Paris in the 1900 year for creating an unnamed 3 linear rifle of the 1891 model of the year.

    AK and M16 are different types of handguns. The first is a light machine gun with plus or minus precision (3 angular minutes for single shots and 10 angular minutes for bursts), the second is a rifle with single-shot accuracy 1 angular minutes.

    In accordance with their predetermined functionals, they were designed.

    The AK was originally designed with tremendous shutter speed and the volume of the receiver (with the ability to work when the top cover of the box is removed), a rigid shutter pusher and vertically spaced parts of the reloading mechanism - all for working in conditions of 100 percent pollution, since the multiple drops associated with this accuracy by the customer was deemed acceptable for a light machine gun.

    M16 is designed as a self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire to suppress. Therefore, it slows down the shutter speed, uses a compact receiver with a lower connector, a pneumatic shutter drive, the location of all parts of the reload mechanism in line with the barrel, the use of the shutter roll buffer - all to increase firing accuracy in self-loading mode.

    The technical features of the AK and M16 led to their tactics of use in hostilities - they are predominantly watered from AKs with bullets like water from a hose (a typical machine gun), from M16 they are predominantly fired single with obligatory aiming.

    At the moment, both designs retained their significance only in military conflicts involving third world countries in connection with the transition of NATO and Russia to bulletproof bulletproof vests that can withstand automatic and single fire from all types of automatic and self-loading rifles, light and single machine guns in service .
    1. +6
      11 November 2016 12: 23
      Quote: Operator
      from AK are predominantly watered with bullets like hose water

      Yeah, of course, watered. I would put you on some typical checkpoint at the time of the attack of the Basmachs, I will see how you will water the cartridges as if from a hose. You will protect each cartridge. If you want to live longer.

      Quote: Operator
      3 angle minutes in single shot

      Normal accuracy for real distances possible in practice. Not for shooting sports on accuracy and range AK was created.

      Quote: Operator
      The technical features of the AK and M16 determined their tactics for use in hostilities

      On the contrary. Tactics determined the technical task issued to the designers. The tactics of the Soviet army is to press the enemy against the ground with dense fire, prevent them from firing, lay them on the ground, deprive maneuver, and then with mortars and ACS. Like the Germans in the Second World War. Everything around a single machine gun is being built. And sometimes you need to reload a machine gun - then the entire compartment from the AK can for a short time replace the RMB with its dense fire. By the way, so far little has changed in this matter.
      I don’t know what tactics the USA was guided by, but I suppose that their experience with jumping on islands in the Pacific Ocean was somewhat different, because the requirements for M16 are different - they are more accurate at long range to the detriment of fire density.
      1. +3
        11 November 2016 12: 33
        "The tactics of the Soviet army are to press the enemy to the ground with dense fire, to prevent them from firing, to lay them on the ground, to deprive them of maneuver," unambiguously the function of a machine gun.

        Thank you for supporting my characterization of AK.

        PS Special cases (for example, switching to a single fire with a shortage of rounds) are also taken into account in the design of the AK machine gun with the help of a translator-fuse.
    2. +2
      12 November 2016 07: 13
      although it has long been known that AK was created by designer Alexander Zaitsev

      Lies. And the proof is that after Kalashnikov’s departure to Izhevsk, not a single type of small arms was adopted, in the development of which Zaitsev would participate. But a dozen Kalashnikov designs were taken.
      1. 0
        12 November 2016 22: 08
        Mikhail Kalashnikov participated in the development of only the first version of the future AK, rejected by the competition committee.

        The second completely revised version of the AK, which won the competition, was developed in Kovrov under the guidance of the staff designer of Tool Plant No. 2 (since 1949, the Degtyarev Plant).

        http://www.mk.ru/social/2013/07/14/883678-zabyity
        iy-konstruktor-kalashnikova.html

        All other models of weapons bearing the Kalashnikov prefix were developed at the design bureau of the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant by its in-house designers without the participation of Mikhail Kalashnikov.
        1. +1
          13 November 2016 08: 33
          Stop carrying garbage. For some reason, to create samples that were later adopted, the presence of Kalashnikov was required. While Kalashnikov was in Kovrov, AK was developed, and in Izhevsk nothing they didn’t do anything like that, Kalashnikov left for Izhevsk and in Kovrov, as it was cut off, neither the PKK nor the PC could give birth. But they gave birth in Izhevsk where Kalashnikov moved.
          1. +1
            13 November 2016 18: 47
            Kalashnikov’s presence around to around AK and PC developers is a credible argument laughing
            1. +1
              14 November 2016 12: 32
              The most credible. Without Kalashnikov, there was no AK or PC. So that he is their developer, and turn all the fairy tales about the figurehead into a tube and put it in one place.
    3. 0
      12 November 2016 17: 56
      Quote: Operator
      although it has long been known that AK was created by designer Alexander Zaitsev

      Zaitsev, who is this? The one that Hase?
      Quote: Operator
      AK and M16 are different types of hand-held small arms.

      Extremely true statement.
      To compare the M16A2 with the AK-74, it’s the same as comparing a short-range machine gun with an easel machine gun. Trying to determine which is better. At the same time, if someone did not understand, M16A2 will be in the role of a short-cut machine gun.
      Comparing the M16A2 with the AKM is completely ridiculous. Like a plane with a tank.
      Quote: Operator
      The first is a light machine gun with plus or minus accuracy (3 arc minutes for single shots and 10 arc minutes for bursts of fire), the second is a rifle with single-shot accuracy of 1 corner minute.

      1. AK in normal caliber, this is just an assault (weakened army) rifle for single fire. Weak and not very effective. But with the ability to conduct effective automatic fire at a "submachine gun" distance (about 100 m). No, automatic fire can be fired at long distances. But getting somewhere is unrealistic. A hybrid of a bad rifle and a good submachine gun.
      2. AK-74 is a uniquely individual automatic weapon. But the refusal to replace the automatic mechanism led to the fact that the recoil had to be balanced by weakening its impulse. Those. reducing the power of the cartridge. The result is a pretty decent assault automatic rifle. The "nuisance" lies in the fact that if the army needs such rifles, then in extremely insignificant quantities. Because basically the army needs army automatic rifles. Those. in a weapon of another class, one step higher.
      3. M16A2, this is a full-fledged army automatic rifle. That's just what the army basically needs.
      Quote: Operator
      M16 is designed as a self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire

      Nope. This weapon is not of the SFR category, but a weapon of the SMG category (aka FAW).
      Weapons of the SFR category (self-loading with the ability to conduct automatic fire) have a rate of 40-60 rounds per minute. Take an interest in the M16 rate of fire.
      Quote: Operator
      Therefore, it slows down the shutter speed, uses a compact receiver with a lower connector, a pneumatic shutter drive, the location of all parts of the reload mechanism in line with the barrel, the use of the shutter roll buffer - all to increase firing accuracy in self-loading mode.

      This is all done to increase the accuracy of fire in AUTO mode. Because on the accuracy of fire in self-loading mode, these factors do not affect.
      Quote: Operator
      AK is predominantly watered with bullets like water from a hose (typical machine gun)

      AK and AK-74 cannot "work" like a light machine gun (LMG). For this they have insufficient rate of fire. Nor can M16A2. And the M4 cannot even work as an SMG (M16A2, AK-74), this is an AR category weapon.
      Quote: Operator
      C M16 mainly shoot single with a mandatory aiming.

      Anything to choose from. Single further 100 m, it is desirable to shoot from AK on cartridges of normal caliber.
      Quote: Operator
      At the moment, both designs retained their significance only in military conflicts involving third world countries.

      Something about the replacement is not heard. Therefore, do not dream of meaning.
  17. +1
    11 November 2016 12: 03
    Yes, not an "assault rifle" and an assault rifle. What is in German what is in English.
  18. +1
    11 November 2016 13: 51
    Quote: marshes
    The Germans did the same sleeveless.

    Rifle Heckler & Koch G11 cartridge-free cartridge.
    Everything is different there. The power system includes a single-row magazine with 50 rounds, located horizontally above the barrel and original feeding and locking mechanisms using a “rotating chamber”. The cartridges are placed vertically with the bullet toe down. The chamber is made separately from the barrel in the form of a through diametrical channel in a steel cylinder rotating in a vertical plane. Behind the cylinder is a bolt with a hammer, which is stationary relative to the barrel. In the normal position, the chamber is aligned with the bore. When rolling back after a shot, the cylinder rotates 90 degrees so that the channel occupies a vertical position. The next cartridge is fed into the chamber from the magazine by a feeding lever, while powder gases or a misfiring cartridge are pushed out of the chamber through the lower vertical ejection channel. After that, the cylinder rotates, the chamber is aligned with the axis of the barrel. The drummer punctures the capsule, a shot occurs.
    1. 0
      11 November 2016 13: 55
      Based on the G11 and under the same cartridge, Heckler & Koch developed the HK LMG11 light machine gun, distinguished by 300 rounds in the magazine’s butt.
      On the left side of the case, a corresponding tide of the power system appeared) and a folding front handle.
      1. 0
        11 November 2016 14: 10
        Quote: Bayonet
        Everything is different there.

        Yes, what can I say, the Germans are sometimes prone to perversions, take a look at least at the current auto industry. Or the creation of the MP-7, we can say a breakthrough, weapons piercing almost all body armor. But willingly no one buys it and they prefer the old 5, themselves in GSG 9 use ultrasound laughing
      2. 0
        11 November 2016 14: 38
        the rotary mechanism is 11, it’s full P, it wedges already in the first twenty, this is without taking into account specific endurance tests, forget it, and Zhetesov’s real ringless bike turned out, another thing, CARTRIDGES, model 43 and a mustache, there are a lot of them, mega a lot, a lot of gigabytes, where to put it ??? here and this is how they are perverted, picadil strips, reflex tape, balancer buffer, enlightenment will come when you will pick out this dried clay with a bayonet knife
  19. +4
    11 November 2016 14: 17
    Quote: Damir
    The main suppliers of entropy to the system are dirt, debris, weather conditions and fools.

    I’ll hang it on the wall in the form of a poster !!!!!!!!! THANK!!!!!!!!!
    A very interesting article ... in particular, finally (for the first time in my memory) they showed where the legs of the M-16 "grow" from ... very funny, especially against the background of a host of articles telling about the copying of the stormgower by Kalashnikov, the genius of Schmeisser, etc. ...

    True! How many times have I argued that the stormtrooper is more M16 father in everything than Kalash, and finally someone bothers to clearly demonstrate everything! Only fools could argue the opposite only because of the external similarity of the barrel and the shape of the gas outlet! that have always been enough
    1. 0
      11 November 2016 14: 55
      everyone who knows the weapon, or rather the mechanics of the weapon, will not say that the assault44 is AK, everything is different, very different, but with regard to the M-16 it does not matter, the stoner made the removal of powder gases directly into the bolt box, this is a mistake that was recognized putting a normal gas outlet, and then idiotic
      1. +1
        11 November 2016 17: 02
        Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
        everyone who knows the weapon, or rather the mechanics of the weapon, will not say that the assault44 is AK, everything is different, very different, but with regard to the M-16 it does not matter, the stoner made the removal of powder gases directly into the bolt box, this is a mistake that was recognized putting a normal gas outlet, and then idiotic

        Who and where recognized the direct gas outlet as a mistake?
        After all experiments with a piston for AR, all military and civilians prefer direct gas venting.
        ps the only AR-15 in this design in Russia

        1. +2
          11 November 2016 20: 21
          nunu, and enta "the only AR-15 in this performance in Russia" has been in the loam? maybe in the Caucasus mountains? not the swords of an idiot, RELIABILITY is a priori, but a hunting one here for an amateur, I dare assure you that a weapon lover becomes a victim of a weapon lover, but reliable
          1. +3
            12 November 2016 17: 23
            Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
            nunu, and enta "the only AR-15 in this performance in Russia" has been in the loam? maybe in the Caucasus mountains? not the swords of an idiot, RELIABILITY is a priori, but a hunting one here for an amateur, I dare assure you that a weapon lover becomes a victim of a weapon lover, but reliable

            Do you personally have an AR? Apparently, he didn’t even hold it in his hands (if there is, a photo and a specklist in the studio).
            How can a person, without personal experience of ownership and exploitation, talk about the shortcomings of the Arch?
            2. The fact that the photo above is not a hunting one ... but an automatic carbine, if you knew the arches you would see it from the photo.
            If a person owns AR-koy and has access to a "real" upgrade, which is sold only in the USA, AR-ka becomes his favorite toy.
            Shooters in Russia are very fond of their ARs, although they have very limited options for tuning their arches.
            Arch is primarily a platform on the basis of which anyone can assemble hundreds of projects to their taste and wallet.
            In order to truly understand and love the Arch, you need to assemble it for yourself and for those components that you consider the best for yourself.
            A properly assembled Arch has sufficient RELIABILITY.
      2. 0
        11 November 2016 20: 10
        I agree. apart from external similarities, there is no close similarity in design, technology, and materials.
  20. +4
    11 November 2016 14: 24
    Quote: Operator
    "The tactics of the Soviet army are to press the enemy to the ground with dense fire, to prevent them from firing, to lay them on the ground, to deprive them of maneuver," unambiguously the function of a machine gun.

    Thank you for supporting my characterization of AK.

    PS Special cases (for example, switching to a single fire with a shortage of rounds) are also taken into account in the design of the AK machine gun with the help of a translator-fuse.

    If we consider in this aspect, then it makes no sense to compare weapons.
    It makes sense to compare the BUSW of the USSR and the USA, and the correspondence of specific samples to this BUSW. And that’s all.
    For example, I read that problems with the reliability of the M-16s of the earlier series were mainly caused by the cartridge.
    The cartridge needed to be equipped with low-smoke powder (not smokeless, it’s clear that everything is nitropowder, just in case. Just a different brand that gave less soot), the production process of which took time and money, Vietnam consumed the cartridges at a much higher speed, than expected, and in warehouses and in production there was a large amount of old gunpowder, which was put into action.
    And the delicate mechanics of M16 refused to eat such gunpowder. And cleaning kits in the old states, either one for five, or one for ten fighters.
    Hence the brochures - Soldier, do you think that cleaning your rifle four times a day is a lot?
    1. +4
      11 November 2016 15: 16
      What is the connection between the design of the M16 and the puncture of the rear services of the US Army - they would have guessed to supply cartridges for it under the slogan "but here we have in warehouses from the Civil War."

      The need to adopt an AA-class light machine gun for armament was dictated by the low level of infantry fire support from artillery and aviation than in the US Army, in which the consumption of only artillery shells on the European theater of war for the period from June 1944 to May 1945 of the year exceeded the total figure of the Red Army, Wehrmacht, British and French armies combined.

      So the SA had to compensate for the "shell hunger" by an order of magnitude increased consumption of ammunition for AK brand light machine guns.

      M16 has not gentle, but competent manual firearm mechanics - soft shutter opening due to pneumatic actuator, soft strike of the bolt frame into the shock absorber in the butt, the absence of a tossing moment due to the location of all moving parts in line with the barrel and the abutment point on the shoulder.
  21. 0
    11 November 2016 14: 31
    well again, healthy, old song about the main thing ...
  22. +13
    11 November 2016 16: 55
    Quote: Operator
    What is the connection between the design of the M16 and the puncture of the rear services of the US Army - they would have guessed to supply cartridges for it under the slogan "but here we have in warehouses from the Civil War."

    The need to adopt an AA-class light machine gun for armament was dictated by the low level of infantry fire support from artillery and aviation than in the US Army, in which the consumption of only artillery shells on the European theater of war for the period from June 1944 to May 1945 of the year exceeded the total figure of the Red Army, Wehrmacht, British and French armies combined.

    So the SA had to compensate for the "shell hunger" by an order of magnitude increased consumption of ammunition for AK brand light machine guns.

    M16 has not gentle, but competent manual firearm mechanics - soft shutter opening due to pneumatic actuator, soft strike of the bolt frame into the shock absorber in the butt, the absence of a tossing moment due to the location of all moving parts in line with the barrel and the abutment point on the shoulder.

    By their augmentation, they did to me well. A soft blow ... A pneumatic actuator ... A point of abutment on the shoulder ... It directly blew a warm tube sound ... You still do not dispel the little doubts that I have.
    Well, for example, the U.S. Marine Corps, as one of the main users of the M16A2 rifle, provided a standard for firing from a defensive position, resting against the shoulder, and hitting the bolt frame with a bolt into the shock absorber at a distance of 300 meters. The remaining exercises were carried out at an even shorter range.
    Movement in patrol and sudden fire contact - 200 meters for example.
    And the AK machine gun, roughly and unbalanced, provides shooting at a running figure, well, a similar exercise for Soviet peasants from plow, at 525 meters. I have a slightly cognitive dissonance from such an exercise. These are the best of the best SRs !!! My dick is my rifle! The song there is about a widow who satisfied herself with a silver spoon ... US Marine Corps. Guys must be able to shoot ...
    Or else, the consumption of rifle ammunition on the Western Front averaged 25 rounds of ammunition, per Nazi killed, and later, already 000, for one narrow-eyed killed. Despite the warm pneumatic pusher, instead of the coarse Tommy Gun with his brass liner, and Phantoms, Ganshipy, with napalm over his head ... Choppers will pour in and take us all away ... Here I can probably answer myself ... Battle distance in the jungle rarely overshadowed the one on which it became important not the warm, lamp opening of the shutter, but the fact that your rifle is capable of shooting, although you have rotted for three days in the rain in a clay-filled trench in half with water, at a checkpoint somewhere in these god-damned jungle. Because as far as greenback a hundred meters maximum ...
    And it’s especially impossible to precisely and precisely beat into the darkness and thickets of vines. Nothing is visible. And the diopter is not visible, and without it is not visible ... It is only possible as quick-eyed - from the belly, to the melt of the trunk. Perhaps this is the expense of cartridges of 200 for one Wi-si. Hence the question, eternal, which is better, an accurate, warm, lamp rifle that does not shoot, or not very accurate, even a rough, light machine gun, but it shoots?
    Here is the author of the practices, who shot from both claims that with straight arms, and at real distances, the AK is no worse than the M 16. Learn to say shoot.
    https://lastday.club/oruzheynoe-imho-ar-protiv-ak
    -chast-1-obzor-hk416-hk-mr223a1 /
    I’m all for what. The fact is that army weapons are created in order to kill. In all conditions, in frost, in heat, in the desert and the jungle. Far and close. Day and read. Its main purpose, it is not abstract MOA stuff, pounded in a dash, in ideal conditions, its purpose is a hole in the enemy, wherever and whenever it needs to be done. And if it can do it, it is good. It can’t, well, at least you crack, no pneumatic rammer will help. And here we are again back to BUSV. Whose is better ... Whose more fully reflects the realities of the battle. Because it is the BUSV that regulates the use of weapons and dictates their performance characteristics.
    But art and aviation support, as we have just seen on the example of Vientama, you can not always get. Even if you're a US Army fighter.
    1. +1
      11 November 2016 20: 43
      Alex1977 and you are definitely RUS: "aogumentation, it will be nice, at night, it will regulate" - a joke.

      No need to talk about getting into a running figure at a distance of 525 meters, the question is different - from which shot (from the 10, 100 or 1000).

      In all AK-47 trials at the GRAU training grounds of the USSR Ministry of Defense, average trained shooters from uncomfortable positions couldn’t hit the chest target at 400 meters from the first stage, and only one bullet from the queue hit the target at 300 meters, all the other bullets went into space.

      That is why the SA switched from intermediate cartridges 7,62x39 mm to low-pulse cartridges 5,45x39 mm.

      Therefore, it is not necessary to tell stories about special forces who, after 5 years of continuous training, sometimes managed to hook a running target from X-NUMX to 47 meters.

      I have already given the accuracy of firing from AK-47 with single shots - 3 angular minutes or 14,5 cm at 500 meters. Those. aiming at the center of the profile of a running figure at this distance, the best shooter from the most convenient position will miss, because the bullet’s circular deflection will be 29 cm.

      BUSV is a paper, not a magic spell. If you have enough hand-held small arms and a shortage of artillery / aviation, then no matter how you write on the paper that you must follow the attack behind the fire shaft, you will still attack the enemy with bare ass, spraying everything around with automatic fire from the AK, to then complete the attack ahead of time, since the portable ammunition supply is not infinite.
    2. +2
      13 November 2016 11: 56
      "A light machine gun AK" ////

      So, you compared the M-16 and a light machine gun?
      Compare with large-caliber ... smile
      Meanwhile, militants have never ambushed AK
      more than 150 m. 100-150 m - its true effective range.
      The M-16 is not much more: 150-200 m.
    3. 0
      14 November 2016 07: 45
      Quote: Alex1977RUS
      Or else, the consumption of rifle ammunition on the Western Front averaged 25 rounds, per one Nazi killed, and later, already 000, per one narrow-eyed killed.


      the soldiers pampered, were not in such a hurry to make contact with the enemy, it seems safer to shoot from far away. hence the expense.
      a large proportion of small arms damage does not occur over long distances, so firing accuracy is not so important.
      what’s important is the soldier’s true desire to hit the enemy,
      1. 0
        14 November 2016 16: 10
        Quote: Maki Avellievich
        the soldiers pampered, were not in such a hurry to make contact with the enemy, it seems safer to shoot from far away. hence the expense

        Once I read about Chattanooga and Missionary. I was surprised by the large number of wounded relative to those killed. He himself hunted quite a lot in his youth, hunters had such a concept - a gun (cartridge) "lives", that is, it turns out a lot of wounded animals. This is most often due to shooting from too long a distance. This I mean that the Yankees were never in a hurry to get in touch with the enemy.
  23. +4
    11 November 2016 17: 48
    I am waiting for the author to write how the military of the US Army and kmp threw out their M-16s and fought with AK lol
  24. +6
    11 November 2016 17: 49
    Quote: Operator
    What is the connection between the design of the M16 and the puncture of the rear services of the US Army - they would have guessed to supply cartridges for it under the slogan "but here we have in warehouses from the Civil War."

    And then, in pursuit of the impact of logistics, there was the army rear, on the reality and design of the M 16.

    “Nine Marines died in battle today, six of them in rice checks right in front of enemy fortifications. Their bodies were found compressing M16 in a dismantled state with cartridges jammed in the chamber. There were traces of gunpowder in the bullet holes on their heads. ”
    The commander of the company "N", 3 bmp / ​​5 PMP. Operation Swift 4-15 September 1967, Vietnam.

    And where does the design? Well, it’s possible despite the fact that AK can even be dismantled on the run, shoving these three and a half parts into pockets, and then assemble on the same run. And shoot. Some time ago, for many years now, without holding AK in cookies, I met the standard blindfolded. I think that these guys said a lot of good things before death, both about the aiming line and the bolt frame ... That's right, hi from harsh reality.
    I’ll not give another one now, the old forum, a similar topic, a comrade from the IDF (this is the Israel Defense Forces, if not in the know), shared his impressions. That's when, he wrote, they roll a barrel on you, in the literal sense they roll, an Arab with a bottle of gasoline in his hands rolls a barrel, hiding behind it, and you, because you really do not want to burn this barrel alive, but he rolls ... Because how bullets penetrate only one wall, but they don’t penetrate the second ... He says he really missed me the good old AK 47 ... True, he had the M-4. But also warm, lamp ... And another Jewish platoon, somewhere in the Gaza Strip, was completely destroyed, because 5,56 in the clay walls of the mud huts of the Arab people were stuck, and Arabs from AK walls, behind which the Jews tried to hide behind, sewed through and through .. .We and M4mi only started working,
    the rest changed by all means and ways ...
    Well, Jobers do not care. On the contrary, show-offs, fagot blubbering, it was considered cool.
    Such are the sketches from real life.
    1. +3
      11 November 2016 21: 09
      The touching story of the 1967 year about the death in battle of six Marines with the M16, whose shutters were jammed with spent cartridges, entirely relates to the rear services of the U.S. Army, which foolishly organized the supply of combat units with cartridges with substandard gunpowder. After switching to the recommended gunpowder, such cases did not recur.

      You listen less to the tales of your friends from Tsahal (that is, AOI) - in every infantry unit of the Israeli army there is a single machine gun of the caliber 7,62x51 mm, specially designed for piercing barrels, hobbies and other horseradish.

      The use of weapons of the caliber 5,45 and 5,56 mm in the armies of NATO, Russia and the same Israel is caused by a much more serious circumstance - the mass transition of the infantry to the wearing of SIBZ (in common parlance of bulletproof vests), which are not pierced even by armor-piercing bullets of intermediate cartridges 7,62x39 mm, but are sewn by bullets of the above low pulse cartridges.

      Such are the show-offs with AK-47 am

      By the way, the number of assembly units for incomplete disassembly of AK and M16 coincides (shutter, gate frame and return spring): the first has additional stock with a gas piston and receiver cover, the second has additional shock absorber and cocking handle.
    2. +1
      13 November 2016 15: 41
      "With M4mi, only job workers began to walk" ////

      An elite landing brigade is fighting with the M-4 and change weapons
      on something else does not want.
  25. +6
    11 November 2016 17: 57
    I have never been in awe of Stoner's creation, neither in practical weapons, nor in design and technology. One can argue a lot and enthusiastically about the reciprocal influence of weapon designers from different countries (after all, the whole history of weapon design, in most cases, is based on more or less successful compilations of known technical solutions), but when someone starts to seriously "fill in" me with Soviet "Kalashnikov" allegedly slammed with Hitler's "Sturmgever" (IMHO-created by the Germans on the basis of SVT automation and Browning anchor USM) and weaves about the hypothetical "Schmeisser's contribution", then I immediately understand that such an "expert" is clearly not in the subject .. .therefore, with all four paws I support the author's educational program on the stated topic! good
    The correctness of the design concept inherent in the AK was confirmed by the seventy-year history of the successful combat operation of the Kalashnikov rifle complex and numerous foreign imitation structures, which is relevant to this day and is not at all striving for completion! drinks
    I look forward to further articles by this author! wink
  26. +5
    11 November 2016 18: 00
    Alive in help (Notes from an Afghan) - Victor Nikolaev.

    "Brace"

    "... Kalashnikov Mikhail Timofeevich! Bow to you, Russian genius-nugget! In the XX century there is no equal to your battle brainchild and will never be!
    Kalashnikov assault rifle - Kalashnikov himself. The men, standing in a circle, speak of him as a faithful friend, as an animated reliable companion. They beat him, he does not fight, they drown him, he does not sink. Throw from fifteen meters onto the cliffs from a helicopter - not even crack.
    "Spirits" who had this machine gun were considered the most prosperous, noble. Other weapons of other countries were valued according to the principle: fishlessness and cancer are fish ...
    The Ghaznians laughed for a long time, recalling the story of the Jalalabad guys when they immediately repelled the attempt of the Tsarandoi commanders to argue whose weapon is better: our Kalashnikov or the US M-16. Bulgarian and Chinese-made “pseudo-Kalashnikovs” were also brought into the dispute.
    The competition was opened at 16.00 in the heat of +60. The check went very simply: the one who shoots more cartridges with a continuous change of stores will win. The outcome was as simple as the plan ...
    The Chinese "Kalash", stupidly stolen by technology, on the seventh horn sadly sagged the barrel from overheating.
    The Bulgarian brother jammed at the ninth store.
    M-16 barely reached the third hundred bullets and inflated the barrel with a pear.
    The Russian machine gun, shrouded in a trembling haze of glow, was just heartily sorry for the fifteenth horn. 450 rounds! It is something.
    Overheated, but not surrendered, our men heartily apologized for the distrust shown by local warriors. Honestly, there was competitive tension. Our guys congratulated the hero and themselves on the championship from the heart, with pleasure clinking glasses of front-line hundred grams about the breech of the "prize-winner". We drank for the next victory of Russian weapons. And the “Tsarandoi” officers were generously invited to the roast ram, which the Afghans lost to Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov. All the time of the competition, the poor man plaintively bleated was the prize in this competition.
    After a story about a contest for justice, one of the old-timers notes:
    - What is so good about the M-16 is one thing - a bayonet knife. Many of our people cherish it as a trophy for hand-to-hand. Reliable thing, sharp, durable, easy to throw ... "

    Do not subtract, not add.
    1. +1
      12 November 2016 18: 11
      Quote: cedar
      The competition was opened at 16.00 in the heat of +60. The check went very simply: the one who shoots more cartridges with a continuous change of stores will win.

      Yes, incompetent eccentrics could hold such a "competition". With conclusions of exactly the same dubious reliability.
      Quote: cedar
      M-16 barely reached the third hundred bullets and inflated the barrel with a pear.
      The Russian machine gun, shrouded in a trembling haze of glow, was just heartily sorry for the fifteenth horn. 450 rounds! It is something.

      And what is the "advantage"?
      Rather, it is quite obvious on the M16 side. If only because she has correctly calculated the trunk.
      Quote: cedar
      one of the old residents

      "Watching" is not at all a sign of great competence in matters of small arms.
      1. 0
        13 November 2016 17: 25
        There was a detailed article about the First Chechen. About the siege
        Grozny railway station
        Russian soldiers are locked. The soldiers fired intensively.
        And AK began to wedge one by one. Some are tight.
        I had to urgently send fighters to the tankers under fire.
        And only after cooling down and with grease did the weapon continue to shoot.
        1. +11
          13 November 2016 19: 04
          That's right, only it was the Arabs. Not the train station, but BenGurion Airport and they sent Moisha to the kosher shop, it was Saturday.
          It is a shame, dear, not to know about the real feat of the 131 Maykop brigade. Do not dirty the bright memory of those who died with their shitty fabrications.
  27. 0
    11 November 2016 20: 04
    interesting article! plus and continued I would like.)
  28. +1
    11 November 2016 20: 25
    Quote: bionik
    ..... Certified Engineer Eugene Stoner. a guy in short pants, compared with Mikhail Timofeevich.

    Not so tough.
    I think the engineering instinct plays a role here - what to do and how.
    Regardless of the level of education and engineering background, which the stoner certainly had more.
    And this very flair of Kalashnikov was developed unlike
    There is nothing to be done about it - a nugget is a nugget.
    Probably not for nothing that God sends such people to Russia. Definitely not in vain.
    And Stoner became a hostage of his own knowledge and engineering dogma.
  29. 0
    12 November 2016 11: 46
    Self-loading rifle of the Fedorov system of the sample of 1912 (caliber 7,62 mm)
    1. +5
      12 November 2016 16: 59
      The Fedorov self-loading rifle of the 1912 model under 7.62x54R had inalienable store on xnumx cartridges.




      And in your picture the Fedorov assault rifle under 6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka with a box magazine for 25 rounds.
      1. 0
        12 November 2016 18: 02
        Quote: adma
        Fedorov assault rifle

        Automatic, this is a very "apt" term. Because completely vague.
        As many as 3 classes of automatic weapons, SFR, AR and SMG (aka FAR) are suitable for this term.
  30. +3
    12 November 2016 16: 44
    Not so long ago, on another resource, during the next clarification of who created the AK, he discovered an interesting argument in favor of Kalashnikov. Namely, the self-loading carbine designed by him for a 7.62 mm intermediate cartridge. Having looked at this carbine, it is easy to understand who the designer of the legendary machine gun is.

    Details of Kalashnikov self-loading carbine 1944




    Details of Kalashnikov self-loading carbine 1945

  31. +2
    12 November 2016 20: 54
    Quote: Operator
    What is the connection between the design of the M16 and the puncture of the rear services of the US Army - they would have guessed to supply cartridges for it under the slogan "but here we have in warehouses from the Civil War."

    The need to adopt an AA-class light machine gun for armament was dictated by the low level of infantry fire support from artillery and aviation than in the US Army, in which the consumption of only artillery shells on the European theater of war for the period from June 1944 to May 1945 of the year exceeded the total figure of the Red Army, Wehrmacht, British and French armies combined.

    So the SA had to compensate for the "shell hunger" by an order of magnitude increased consumption of ammunition for AK brand light machine guns.

    M16 has not gentle, but competent manual firearm mechanics - soft shutter opening due to pneumatic actuator, soft strike of the bolt frame into the shock absorber in the butt, the absence of a tossing moment due to the location of all moving parts in line with the barrel and the abutment point on the shoulder.

    Sorry, but then why do Americans need machine guns if they have everything doing art and air ???
    Sly dear. Ak in terms of accuracy was second only to Mke in auto mode, and now that is already gone.
    and superior in any caliber in cbyb!
    1. +1
      12 November 2016 22: 21
      How do you imagine the use of artillery for fire support of infantry during the sweeping of a settlement? For such cases, the armament of the infantry squads (including in the American army) has manual fire support means - single machine guns. Plus, a different reaction time in any clashes of a regular machine gunner and attached artillery.

      In muzzle energy, the M16 is superior to the AK-74. AK-47 is not the topic, because its bullets are not able to penetrate the standard army body armor.
  32. 0
    15 November 2016 00: 30
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Meanwhile, militants have never ambushed AK
    more than 150 m. 100-150 m - its true effective range.
    The M-16 is not much more: 150-200 m.

    Yeah. According to American studies, real, rather than polygon ranges of fire contact using assault rifles are 150 - 300 m. Maybe this is what caused the appearance of the M4 ...
  33. +2
    15 November 2016 15: 45
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Quote: Yegor village
    refinement of the AR 16 at a cost of $ 10 leads him to a reliability almost equal to Kalash.

    AR reliability has never been worse than Kalash reliability. And without any modifications.
    - wild, unconfirmed nonsense, outright nonsense, contrary to many facts and cases of failure of both AR-15 and M-16. And AK is one of the most reliable examples of automatic weapons on the planet, this is even recognized in the United States.
    1. 0
      16 November 2016 00: 52
      Quote: Phoenix_Lvov
      And AK is one of the most reliable examples of automatic weapons on the planet, this is even recognized in the United States.

      1. For starters, in the US, AK reliability is considered mediocre.
      2. Read that in the patent application for AK write the developers themselves about its reliability.
      1. +2
        17 November 2016 10: 03
        "Mediocre" - what do you mean? Maybe in the USA they think that the M-16 is more reliable than the AK? And which machine gun, I dare to ask, is considered more reliable "Kalash" in the USA?

        By the way, about the US opinion on this issue, we google "the best rifles of the 20th century", the very first link to https://topwar.ru/18201-luchshie-vintovki-hh-veka
        -vybor-diskaveri.html, where the first place goes to the AK-47 (about which they write that it is LESS reliable than the AK-74, that is, the most reliable Kalash after all).

        "1st place - Thirty charges of rock and roll. The weapon of the bad guys.
        Automatic assault rifle AK-47 "

        May I assume that you, having declared about the "average reliability of the AK", COULD LIE?
        1. 0
          17 November 2016 11: 19
          Quote: Phoenix_Lvov
          the first link to https://topwar.ru/18201-luchshie-vintovki-hh-veka
          -vybor-diskaveri.html, where the first place is given to the AK-47 (about which they write that it is LESS reliable than the AK-74, that is, the most reliable Kalash after all)

          This is a very reliable source. And authoritative.
          In addition, read another 100 times what I wrote. And try to understand what is written.
    2. 0
      24 November 2016 23: 03
      let's clarify: which AKs are reliable in the opinion of the Americans, our stock or modified files in the USA itself? Or even American-made?
  34. 0
    16 November 2016 10: 09
    Quote: colonel
    What is illiteracy, explain. Galil is much less like the M-16 than the AK. Or are your constructors "pretentious" too?

    what looks like does not mean that it’s the same inside. you’re just like a child to her. funny even
  35. 0
    16 November 2016 10: 11
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Quote: Phoenix_Lvov
    And AK is one of the most reliable examples of automatic weapons on the planet, this is even recognized in the United States.

    1. For starters, in the US, AK reliability is considered mediocre.
    2. Read that in the patent application for AK write the developers themselves about its reliability.


    but by the same token in America, Kalash is spreading like pies. And people are not buying unreliable or even medium reliable.
  36. 0
    17 November 2016 11: 38
    Just now I was in Izhevsk and looked into the museum ... mixed feelings .. If you digress from the topic of weapons and look here (in the photo the lawn mower "Kalashnikov system"), then there are doubts about the engineering "divinity" of Mr. Kalashnikov, you might say, these are different topics / directions / approaches, but I'll say that if a person does for himself, he definitely tries more, doesn't he? And after such a "sample" you really start to doubt the authorship of the AK. Well this is my personal opinion! By the way, what surprised in the museum is not a single sample of modern foreign production, it would seem that they say - compare, "our" is better .. because everything is learned in comparison
    1. +1
      18 November 2016 08: 29
      I have met people who will do "worse" for themselves, because they are not demanding on things. I have a "worse" appearance of the product.
      1. 0
        18 November 2016 11: 48
        2nd 12th here it's not only about the appearance, pay attention to the details and the level of "engineering", I just remember how my grandfather realized various crafts at about the same time, it was much more accurate - but here ... it would be then scotch tape is widespread so he would have "strapped" it to him .. In general, before the museum, I am interested in the personality and work of M.T. Kalashnikov was treated with great respect, now there is skepticism.
        1. +1
          21 November 2016 21: 41
          Did your grandfather create something that received recognition akin to a Kalashnikov assault rifle? Probably, Kalashnikov gave all the time to the plant and work for the common good, and he felt sorry for wasting time "for himself". Psychology of the second generation.
          1. 0
            22 November 2016 10: 32
            My grandfather PERSONALLY created what his grandchildren use and they still like it. The buildings that were built under his guidance (he was a foreman) still stand and people live in them.
            Look at the "craft" below .. it seems to me that the grandchildren of Mikhail Timofeevich do not use this device, and if the authorship of this lawn mower is beyond doubt, then there are questions about the authorship of the AK (or do you think that the entire AK family is just the creation of M. T. Kalashnikov ??) The fact that he gave his strength for the good of the Motherland is undoubtedly a good example, but the question is not that, but that this "craft" is clearly not up to engineering and raises certain questions ..
  37. 0
    17 November 2016 17: 23
    Author, "rifle" is a "rifle", not a "gun"
    1. +1
      17 November 2016 18: 30
      Das deutsche Waffenrecht definiert Gewehre als Langwaffen.
      Fershteen zee?
      1. 0
        24 November 2016 23: 08
        again: "rifle" originally meant "slicing". What is the name of the rifled rifle? That's right, "rifle".
        And "Assault shotgun" is "Assault shotgun"
  38. +1
    17 November 2016 22: 38
    In! As the author is right! How many times have I tried (in my silly youth) to show and prove that the AK isn’t stg, outward similarity, namely, most models of this type are alike, etc. Only then I realized that these opponents did not need any evidence. Everything that we have done a priori is bad.
  39. 0
    28 December 2016 16: 58
    The main suppliers of entropy to the system are dirt, debris, weather conditions, and fools. For the latter, a whole scientific section has been created, which is called: "Protection from the fool". But no matter how perfect the defense is, it will always fail, because it is perfect by definition.

    Peerless words! Bravo! We must learn these words by heart ...
  40. 0
    5 May 2017 10: 34
    My first comment. I have been many years. I really like this resource and have been reading for many years. For myself, I decided I will write only about what I know. So service in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR 1972-1974. Not a convoy. Special troops. Protection and defense of especially important state facilities. With AKM we can say spent 2 years every other day on the belt. And 3 shootings per week. Nightly, after tactics, etc. The weapon is magnificent. All exercises performed easily. And head and shoulders and stance and runner. Those who were elders of Kalashnikov probably did not equip the store in the field for a while. That's all for now. Mastered

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