Project news CJSC "Lotos"

Some details of one of the projects currently being developed for advanced equipment for airborne forces have become known. Representatives of the industry disclosed part of the plans regarding the timing of the project "Lotos". According to the latest data, the main part of the design work is expected to be completed in the coming years, after which the prospective sample will be put to the test and can count on the start of mass production.

On November 5, Dmitry Semizorov, Director General of the Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (TsNIITochmash), told the press about the existing schedule of work on the topic “Lotos”. A new self-propelled artillery gun will be developed over the next few years. On the 2019 year scheduled tests of the prototype. In the same year it is planned to carry out all the necessary checks, the results of which will be used to decide on the adoption of equipment for service. Serial production of Loz can be launched in 2020 year. Such terms, as noted by D. Semizorov, were approved by the customer.

Also, the head of the enterprise-developer revealed some features of the design. He said that the project is promising self-propelled initially created for mass production in specific enterprises. This means that the project is being developed taking into account the production capabilities of certain organizations of the defense industry, which will have to start production of equipment. Such an approach will greatly simplify the launch of mass production and the release of new technology.

SAO 2C9 "Nona-S". Photo of Wikimedia Commons

Recall the development of self-propelled artillery "Lotus" started just a few months ago. The start of the new project was announced in June of this year. In this case, the first data on this account were obtained by the media from anonymous sources in the defense industry. Subsequently, officials confirmed the beginning of the development of a new artillery system. In addition, in the statements of the official representatives of the armed forces and industry there were some clarifications of already known information.

Messages about the launch of a new project with the cipher "Lotos" appeared in mid-June this year. Unnamed sources of the domestic press reported that the Ministry of Defense decided to abandon the continuation of work on the Zauralets-D project, the purpose of which was to create self-propelled artillery guns for the airborne forces. At the same time, a decision was made to launch a new project with similar goals. Before the start of the Lotos project, the military department formed updated requirements for promising technology. So, it is known about changes in the requirements for the chassis of the new CAO. It was planned to complete work on the new project by the middle of 2018.

The goal of the Zauralets-D project, which preceded Lotus, was to create a promising self-propelled artillery gun that could replace existing combat vehicles of the Nona-S type. The new development is designed specifically for the airborne troops and therefore has a number of characteristic features. It was mentioned that in the framework of the Zauralets-D project, two versions of the 120 and 152 mm caliber guns are being created. The gun was supposed to be placed on a combat module suitable for installation on different chassis. The CAO was to be based on the chassis of the BMD-4M. It is also known about the work on the wheel version of the self-propelled gun.

CAO of a new type was intended for the Airborne Forces, because of which it should have been able to transport aviation and parachute landing. Similar features of a combat vehicle could bring its effectiveness to the required level. The use of self-propelled guns with 120-mm guns made it possible to replace existing equipment, while 152 mm-caliber guns could give the landing artillery completely new possibilities. If the project was approved by the customer, the airborne troops could receive equipment with unique characteristics.

Earlier it was reported that various experimental equipment created in the framework of the project "Zauralets-D", is already undergoing certain tests. In 2016, a number of self-propelled guns were planned to be sent in part of the Airborne Forces to conduct military tests. On the test of equipment in actual use was given several years. In 2019, the year it was supposed to launch a full-fledged mass production. About a year later, the airborne troops were to complete rearmament with the transition to a new type of system.

In early May of this year, Airborne Forces Commander-in-Chief Colonel-General Vladimir Shamanov announced that in the very near future the ZNuralets-D 120-mm self-propelled artillery gun will be shown to the general public for the first time. However, this did not happen. A few weeks later it became known about the decision of the Ministry of Defense, determining the further development of the self-propelled artillery of the airborne troops. The customer has changed the requirements for technology in the direction of tightening, and also ordered the development of a new project "Lotos".

An interesting comment on the future of the two projects was made at the end of July. Deputy Commander of the Airborne Forces, Lieutenant General Andrei Holzakov, said that the Defense Ministry is not refusing further work on the subject of Zauralets-D. The general clarified that the existing project moved to a new form of development work. According to him, some of the objects in the process of aging. Because of this, every year they change the name. A. Holzakov promised to continue the conversation on this topic next year.

In mid-August, the general director of the enterprise TsNIITochmash commented on the work on the new project. D. Semizorov recalled that the project "Zauralets-D" was brought up to the stage of preliminary tests that confirmed the correctness of the chosen ideas and solutions. In the framework of the previous project, the designers received a serious scientific and technical background, which is now used when creating the CJSC Lotos. Thus, the new project “Lotos” is simultaneously a further development and replacement for the previous “Zauraltsa-D”.

Any details of the technical appearance of the self-propelled weapons "Lotos" has not yet been published. Nevertheless, information about the continuity of the two newest projects has already allowed some assumptions to be made on this subject. Information about the change in the requirements for the chassis of the prospective sample may indicate that other components of the self-propelled gun can be borrowed in the existing project without significant changes.

Previously it was assumed that the CJSC "Zauralets-D" will be a tracked combat vehicle built on the basis of a special chassis. The latter should be based on the BMD-4М units, but differ from the airborne assault vehicle by a number of parameters, primarily the dimensions and, as a result, the composition of the undercarriage. The fighting compartment should be located on the chassis, having a rotary turret with a new type of weapon. It was supposed to use guns caliber 120 and 152 mm. Thus, from the point of view of the overall architecture, the prospective self-propelled gun was almost no different from the existing equipment of its class.

Previously, there were reports of the possible installation of an artillery unit on a wheeled armored car VPK-39373 "Wolf-3". In addition, several photos of this type of equipment got into free access in due time. Various additional units were installed on the base chassis, including the open installation of the implement with the coulter lowered. Subsequently, this sample, despite the interest shown to it by the general public, was not featured in the new materials on the project. Moreover, there were reports that this prototype model was not directly related to the project “Zauralets-D”.

In connection with the purpose of the new CAO should have a relatively small size and combat mass. Special requirements are placed on this technique regarding the possibility of transporting and landing from existing military transport aircraft. Functional analogs of the “Zauralets” and “Lotus” that are in service correspond to similar requirements, which allows us to make some estimates about the dimensions and weight of the developed equipment.

Obviously, due to the changing requirements of the customer, the new version of the draft perspective CAO will differ from the base version. However, this may lead to some shift in the timing of completion. So, a few years ago it was claimed that the Zauralets-D cars would go to the Airborne Forces already in 2016, however, these plans, apparently, were never realized. Instead of this technology, a new and improved one is now being developed, but its prototypes will appear later. However, it is planned to complete all the required work and begin rearming the airborne troops, as before, at the end of this decade. If the Lotos project does not face new difficulties, already in 2019-20 years, paratrooper-gunners will be able to start developing the newest material part, which significantly increases the strike potential of the troops.


On the materials of the sites:
http://tass.ru/
http://ria.ru/
http://rg.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://bastion-opk.ru/

Comments

[igordok]

Lotus - continuation of the flower series?

[Banishing liberoids]

Well, this is the pushing of water in a mortar - create and try at least a prototype so that there is something to argue about.

[inkass_98]

I, of course, am not an expert, but in the photo there is clearly no question of the 152 mm caliber, there is still the same 120 mm gun as the Nona had. Changing the chassis - and the whole upgrade?

[1vlad19]

So this "Nona" is.

[megavolt823]

Yes and no . nona was reborn into a vein. and vein in lotus. the question is related to reconnaissance of the target day and night. fire correction. management and guidance. Automation development comrades !!!!

[cannabis]

Question one - And have already begun to build transport aircraft suitable for transporting and landing these self-propelled guns. The second question. How will the ammunition load of 152mm guns be replenished. Third question . How much will this self-propelled gun cost and how much for this money can you make biaxial vehicles with howitzers on a trailer, which can also be dropped in any way.

[activator]

Quote: cunning

Question one - Have they already begun to build transport

Well, but nobody really thinks about it on this resource. Why have so many airborne vehicles if you don’t have to drop them with anything. Yes, and it’s unlikely that it will ever be needed and BMDs will be used like regular BMPs, And like regular self-propelled guns only at a price of 3 lama dolars and with much worse armor protection. And for the money you can buy t90.

[Lopatov]

Quote: cunning

How much will this self-propelled gun cost and how much for this money can you make biaxial vehicles with howitzers on a trailer

The creation of such weapons is simply not economically feasible. Near-zero resistance to counter-battery - et. not good to eat ...

[cannabis]

Here from this place in more detail .. about the counter-battery ....

Quote: Spade

Near-zero resistance to counter-battery - et. not good to eat ...

[Lopatov]

At the moment, there are three ways to increase resistance to counter-battery.

- "Dispersion" of artillery combat formations, which makes it impossible to destroy the entire battery / the entire fire platoon as a group target with one fire strike.
This is achieved by the presence on the guns of an effective system of self-alignment and orientation, plus the presence of ASUNO. A gun commander counting individual amendments will no longer be enough
- Application of the tactics "short fire raid - movement". This tactic requires three things: a high speed of movement of the gun, a short time to bring the gun from combat to marching and vice versa, and a high rate of fire.
- Increased "passive" protection. At least anti-splinter protection of the gun and crew. Equipping weapons with systems of protection against enemy WTO.

It is possible to "iron" almost all of these requirements in a towed gun. Except perhaps for the splinter protection of the crew. But the battery of such towed guns at its cost will come close to the battery of the ACS.

[cannabis]

SPG NONA was useful to the paratroopers in that it could use enemy ammunition. (smaller caliber). When creating a 152 mm self-propelled gun, such an opportunity is lost because the enemy’s caliber is greater than 155mm. There is no near-zero or absolute stability. The counter battery fight has been waged continuously and for more than one hundred years. 40 years ago there were already SNARs, which, when a 3-meter trajectory of a projectile was detected, calculated the firing position. Mortars, even easier to detect - a simple thread with a weight and a stopwatch. Now about the self-propelled guns as part of the landing. Self-propelled guns are required in addition to shells and diesel fuel and oil and spare parts. Trailed guns only shells. And the landings do not fight for a long time. A company is an hour, a battalion is up to 3 hours at best.

[Lopatov]

Quote: cunning

SPG NONA was useful to the paratroopers in that it could use enemy ammunition. (smaller caliber). When creating a 152 mm self-propelled gun, such an opportunity is lost because the enemy’s caliber is greater than 155mm.

A common misconception. "Nona" is not only unable to use non-existing 122-mm shells of the enemy, it cannot fire our shells from the D-30 / 2S1 either. Only an expensive special projectile with ready-made projections for grooves.
Well, about 120-mm mortars and captured mines for them, the Airborne Forces have long been required battalion artillery. Its complete absence - the thing is absolutely unacceptable.

[cannabis]

Quote: Spade

A common misconception. "Nona" is not only unable to use non-existing 122-mm shells of the enemy,

Thank you for explaining ... otherwise, at the Shot courses, noodles were hung about an insert shaft for 105 mm of enemy production.

[Lopatov]

Quote: cunning

Thank you for explaining ... otherwise, at the Shot courses, noodles were hung about an insert shaft for 105 mm of enemy production.

Maybe there were such Wishlist.
But firstly, I didn’t hear that they were "ironed", the designers did not solve the problem of the danger of 2C9 for their own crews, not to mention some "inserts" that I can’t even imagine. how can you install, and most importantly, then extract
Secondly, the 105 mm caliber for NATO is uniquely dying.

[Aqela]

If sclerosis doesn’t fail me, NATO mines are not 105 mm, but 107 mm. Moreover, 107-mm mortars in the USA have rifled barrels ... Adaptation to the 120-mm barrel looks dubious.

[Operator]

The Airborne Forces do not require artillery, self-propelled guns, tanks and BMDs, but the inclusion of each brigade’s own transport helicopters, capable of transporting all the brigade’s personnel with their armament and ammunition to the 2-3 of the battle hours for the second helicopter flight in one flight.

Based on the possible capacity of one transport helicopter in one compartment (48 people), the number of such helicopters in the brigade will be 27 units, plus about the same for the transport of mobile weapons, ammunition and rear units. A total of 50 transport helicopters with take-off weight of 20 tons (not including light reconnaissance and staff helicopters).

Instead of BMD, self-propelled guns and airborne mortars, jeeps and man-portable missile launchers are required - MANPADS, ATGMs and RPGs with homing missiles.

Attack helicopters and VKS planes should be involved as fire support for the landing operation period.

PS "Armored" BMD and self-propelled guns based on it: a relic of the Soviet fix idea about the possibility of creating a spherical horse - a combat vehicle of the DESANT, half and lighter than an infantry fighting vehicle, but with the same security and capacity.

BMD can withstand only two or three landing on a parachute system, after which they fall apart from overloads upon landing.

Airborne fighters basically ride on the armor of any armored equipment given to them, so riding in the seats of jeeps will be completely familiar to them and much more comfortable. In addition, the loss of one transport unit will be reduced by exactly half due to the lower capacity of one jeep compared to the BMD.

For transporting over long distances and landing on airfields, there is a military transport aircraft of the aerospace forces.

The parachute landing of personnel from the aircraft flying at low altitude should be assigned only to reconnaissance companies and airborne battalions during reconnaissance and sabotage operations and the capture of bridgeheads for landing transport helicopters.

[BULB TARAS]

All of the above is just for the DSB (now they are part of the Airborne Forces) and in Soviet times it was approximately the same in the districts to which they were subordinate

[Operator]

Quite right, the Airborne Forces should consist entirely of infantry combat vehicles, with the exception of intelligence units.

The armament of the Airborne Forces should consist only of weapons and ground transport, which are transported by helicopters with a take-off weight of 20 tons with a cargo compartment of 12x2,5x2 m.

[Wasiliy1985]

That is, the Mi-8?

[Operator]

Mi-8MSB really accommodates 26 paratroopers. But he has 12,5 tons of take-off weight, 2,5 tons of payload - 100 kg per paratrooper (paratrooper weight, weapons and equipment for one hour of battle).

It is required to be able to deliver more ammunition for several hours of combat (before the second helicopter cargo flight) during the first flight, apart from the paratroopers, based on 50 kg per paratrooper.

In this regard, the Mi-38 is more suitable with a take-off weight of 15,6 tons, a carrying capacity in the transport compartment of 5 tons and a capacity of 30 people. The size of its transport compartment 8,7x2,34x1,8 is sufficient to carry two jeeps.

[strannik1985]

And the Airborne Forces are magically transformed from the Reserve of the High Command to the Land Forces DSHV, because the transport capabilities of the VTA do not allow helicopters to be flown by aircraft, and the Mi-8 / Mi-24 ferry range is 1-000 km.
We (in the person of SA) have already been through this since 11,13 and 21 of the USSR SShBr.

[Operator]

Where do you want to transfer helicopters with a ferry range of 1200 km - to North America, Central, South?

No problem - the air-to-air refueling system allows helicopters to have unlimited ferry range.

[strannik1985]

From Pskov to Beslan 1979 km.
1979 MSD and VDD (2 thousand people) were transferred to Mongolia from the Moscow Military District (18) at a distance of 5,5 thousand km.

In the brigade arr. 1968-1979 135 helicopters (4357 people), 438 helicopters in the American IDT, how many refuellers will be needed?

[Operator]

Let's count: there are three battalions in the brigade, three companies in the battalion, three platoons in the company, and three squads in the platoon.

If the capacity of the helicopter is equal to the compartment with 50-kg calculation per person, then for the simultaneous movement of the brigade it will be required from 81 to 100 helicopters (taking into account staff structures and portable fire support equipment) with take-off weight of about 6 tons each.

If the capacity of the helicopter is equal to the platoon, then 27 to 36 helicopters with take-off weight of about 18 tons each will be required.

After landing of the brigade, its regular helicopters organize a permanent air bridge for the transport of ammunition and the evacuation of the wounded.

[Aqela]

Those. not airborne troops, but airmobiles. So understand?

[Operator]

You can call it that, but in the USSR / RF Armed Forces another term is used - air assault units and airborne assault units (all of which are part of the Airborne Troops).

Feature of the airborne assault units - increased mobility compared with the parachute assault units. The latter were dropped with parachutes, and then go on foot or, at best, riding on the BMD with an average speed of 30 km / h. The first ones after completing a combat mission can be moved to a new combat area at a speed of 300 km / h.

At the same time, the depth of the airborne assault units to the rear of the enemy is several times greater than the depth of the airborne assault units, since the former are evacuated by helicopters after completing a combat mission, and the latter are forced to break through the front line with battle.

By and large, it can be considered that paratroopers are suicide bombers, since it is one thing to complete a combat mission behind enemy lines and breaking through the front-line zone and the front with light weapons is completely different.

An exception to this rule is the parachute landing of small groups for reconnaissance and sabotage operations behind enemy lines, but, again, the evacuation of groups using helicopters.

[kashtak]

Quote: Spade

A common misconception. "Nona" is not only unable to use non-existing 122-mm shells of the enemy, it cannot fire our shells from the D-30 / 2S1 either. Only an expensive special projectile with ready-made projections for grooves.

please explain what it is about? the NONA caliber is 120 mm, the NATO mortar caliber is 120 mm which is the smaller caliber? Nona may well fire mortar mortars, including captured ones. such a question could have been with a battalion mortar of 81 \ 82 mm.

[Lopatov]

I'm not talking about mines, about shells. They are very, very specific.

[kashtak]

Quote: Spade

I'm not talking about mines, about shells. They are very, very specific.

quite right, Nona's specific shells. I wanted to say that besides them it is possible to use any 120 mm mortar mines. both domestic and NATO. in the self-propelled mortar mode.

[Lopatov]

Quote: cunning

The counter battery fight has been waged continuously and for more than one hundred years. 40 years ago there were already SNARs, which, when a 3-meter trajectory of a projectile was detected, calculated the firing position. Mortars, even easier to detect - a simple thread with a weight and a stopwatch.

I used the term "sustainability" for a reason.
For the items that I indicated above:
- What is easier and faster to detect and hit an artillery division as three group targets, or as 18 point targets? At the same time, all modern means of determining the coordinates of shooting guns do not give accuracy, which allows the use of guided projectiles with correction for LPS.
- What is easier, to detect and hit a stationary gun, or a gun that changes its firing position after a minute firing raid?
- What will require less expenditure of time and shells, damage to towed guns, or protected from splinters and WTO self-propelled guns?

In the field of determining the coordinates of firing guns since the First World War, everyone has advanced very, very far. In the direction of accuracy, reducing the time per cycle "spot-hit", reducing the consumption of projectiles.
However, the appearance on the modern battlefield of an ACS with ASUNO and self-reference systems and self-orientation brought this "game" to a new level. Practically dropping the counter-battery means to their original positions. And significantly increasing the cost of these activities.

[cannabis]

I see this battle picture. The commander of the battalion landed in a parachute way organizes a fire system on the bridgehead and organizes the defense of the captured bridge. He screams into the ear of the battery commander, give a barrage fire and crush those bitches on top, damn observers! And the battery commander replies that he can only shoot within a minute, then change of firing position, I will report as soon as I am ready. There is a highly developed counter-battery struggle!

[Lopatov]

Quote: cunning

He screams into the ear of the battery commander, give a barrage fire and crush those bitches on top, damn observers! And the battery commander replies that he can only shoot within a minute, then change of firing position, I will report as soon as I am ready.

Firstly, not everything is as scary as you try to portray. Minute high-tempo fire raid - 30-40 seconds movement, again high-tempo minute fire raid. For barrage this is quite enough.

Second, the alternative is much worse. A minute raid of fire, that's all. In your example, the commander will answer the battalion commander "I have no more guns." I think this is much worse than the phrase "in 40 seconds I'll be ready to fire.

[cannabis]

Tell me sir, did you have to assign tasks to the attached or supporting artillery battalion? If yes, which ones.

[chenia]

Quote: cunning

to set tasks for a given or supporting art division?

Lopatov is the one who set these tasks.

And he talks about the prospect of artillery action. What now exists in many ways, the linear location of the OP and the execution of several tasks with the same OP with a serious opponent will not work.

[cannabis]

And do you seriously argue with Lopatov that it takes 40 seconds to change the firing position? Okay, okay, okay, that's it, I'm sorry, I made a mistake at the door.

[Lopatov]

Everything is much worse, such tasks were set for me. Therefore, he repeatedly came across a lack of understanding by the infantry of the combat capabilities of artillery.

Did you mention the motionless barrage? Do you need one minute? In fact, for NZO, one minute is a lot.
Even if the enemy infantry was dismounted, one minute is about 90 meters. That is, if the first covering group falls on the line of tanks, then the last in an empty place.

[cannabis]

Well yes . Each month, a nachfin with a bag of money will be thrown out by parachute. But in the brigade of nachfin two, and about twelve months. Here misunderstandings arise.

[kashtak]

When creating 152 mm self-propelled guns, such an opportunity is lost because the enemy’s caliber is greater than 155mm

a few years ago there were reports about a competition for a new howitzer. light, with a range of 6 km and a projectile weight of 35 kg. the requirements of transportation were laid down with the calculation and BC not only of transport planes but also of helicopters. such a projectile weight was considered optimal for high-explosive and high-explosive fragmentation in the field, and the 152 mm caliber was determined based on the possibility of using guided projectiles and missiles. then nothing was heard about it, now it seems they remembered.

[svd-xnumx]

Trailed guns only shells. And the landings do not fight for a long time. A company is an hour, a battalion is up to 3 hours at best.

And what about trailed implements that the crew will pull? KAMAZ and the Urals also "eat" a lot of fuel.

[chenia]

Quote: cunning

And the landings do not fight for a long time. A company is an hour, a battalion is up to 3 hours at best.

Here we are talking about the airborne assault landing, and they can be thrown not to tactical depths, but operational, atomic and strategic ones up to 500 km (well, like Germans like Malta). And there with terms more.

[Zulu_S]

Quote: cunning

Third question . How much will this self-propelled gun cost and how much for this money can you make biaxial cars with, which is also possible to drop in any way.
Other

And how much will the time machine cost? To go to the last century, where

Quote: cunning

howitzer on a trailer

was relevant?

[Chtononibrator]

He said that the project is promising self-propelled guns initially created for mass production at specific enterprises. This means that the project is being developed taking into account the production capabilities of certain organizations of the defense industry, which are to launch production of equipment.

That is, they will act on the principle that we will not purchase new machines, even if the product will be worse, but in the old. Perfectly.

[andrewkor]

Something is scattered back and forth, money is not spent efficiently, I do not like it!

[Dmitry 2246]

You can land from a ferry barge, railway transport, airplanes and helicopters, and most importantly not only to the landing troops. The overall mobility of the aircraft is increasing. The artillery tasks of the SV battalion in many respects overlap with the tasks of paratroopers and marines. Hence the significance of this development as a whole. Perhaps artillery guidance using drones is being developed, which means there is a need to increase the firing range.

[cannabis]

You can still drop from a bicycle, the roof of a tram, from a minibus, even from a cart. It greatly increases mobility.

[Dmitry 2246]

Not to be confused with dismount.

[Blue fox]

Quote: Spade

Minute high-tempo fire raid - 30-40 seconds movement, again high-tempo minute fire raid.

That is, dear colleague, is it something like Scandinavian AMOS?

[kashtak]

Quote: Blue Fox

That is, dear colleague, is it something like Scandinavian AMOS?

this method was still used in the Second World War. the first gun (battery) takes a few shots and changes its position. at that time, fire is conducted by number 2, which passes the baton to number 3. when the fire finishes, number 4 number 1 must be ready to open fire at a new place. the enemy under fire and the chances of avoiding return fire increase. didn't seem to mess up?

[Lopatov]

Not really. There is a higher level, a self-propelled mortar fires from short stops. In fact, no casting from marching to combat when occupying the OP and from fighting to marching when leaving is not carried out.
Similarly, Israeli SM operate. They work following the battle formations of infantry and tanks. continuously supporting them with fire.

Self-propelled howitzers do not know how. The load on the guidance drives is too high.

[cannabis]

Quote: Spade

The load on the guidance drives is too high.

All! After this phrase, I exit the battle to pre-prepared positions.

[Lopatov]

Quote: cunning

All! After this phrase, I exit the battle to pre-prepared positions.

Hehe ...
From the third book of TO and IE 2S3M:
"It is forbidden (underlined) to move the product 2S3M when the system is on"
What system are we talking about?
"The 2E24 system is a complex of two semi-automatic drives (GN and VN), intended for guidance in the vertical and horizontal planes of the howitzer barrel"

[chenia]

The system is definitely needed. But as for the fears surrounding counter-battery warfare, I think that an adversary who has such air defense systems that made it possible to land with such systems hardly has perfect counter-battery warfare, even with the linear arrangement of the battery.

And artillery (all) certainly needs to be prepared for the occupation of a dispersed OP and a quick change. A technical question (or rather money.

[strannik1985]

The landing force can also be landing, at the airfield closest to the theater of operations, as in Beslan (2008), given that the "potential enemy" may well receive weapons and undergo training from our sworn friends ...

[Arct]

Yeah, people get weird at times. When they start talking to me about counter-battery combat as applied to amphibious operations (and especially airborne ones), I just want to pinch myself and ask, "Am I on that planet, comrades? Or are we already fantasizing about?" Let's not confuse a stable front line with amphibious operations behind enemy lines ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Arkt

Nevertheless, let's not confuse a stable front line and landing operations behind enemy lines ...

And what do you consider "the enemy's rear"? And how will the paratroopers end up there?

[Arct]

I did not expect such a stupid question. Obviously, in your understanding, our airborne assault is designed to crack defense)) And how the airborne assault is behind enemy lines - ask Margelov and the concept of using this type of troops - everything is well founded there. Well, if you want to play the game a stupid question is a stupid answer, the flag is in your hands.

[chenia]

cannabis,

Quote: cunning

And do you seriously argue with Lopatov that it takes 40 seconds to change the firing position?

But what is difficult (in the future - you will pay attention to this) if each installation has the ability to instantly attach and calculate data on the entered goal, taking into account its place in the fan.
The SOB machine is a simpler option, it will do for each gun and issue the gun command to the sensor.
The bottleneck of the BC is that I don’t want to shoot the carriage somehow, but the loss of time from the ground.

[Lopatov]

Quote: chenia

The bottleneck of the BC is that I don’t want to shoot the carriage somehow, but the loss of time from the ground.

It's about defense. Positions can be prepared by laying on the ground shells on one firing raid at each point

[Lopatov]

Quote: cunning

And do you seriously argue with Lopatov that it takes 40 seconds to change the firing position?

You here bragged about courses "Shot", count. 4 vd. Suppose the situation is as unpleasant as possible, the enemy's artillery fires at the maximum range. For the same 2S3 at a distance of 17 km, Vd is 72 meters
Total, 288 meters. 5 seconds to turn off the drives, set the stopper and start moving, 25 seconds of movement, 10 seconds after stopping to be ready to fire.
We calculate the speed of 288 meters, 25 seconds, 41 km / h.

[chenia]

Do not understand the infantry, the subtle soul of the artilleryman.
But more recently, they (when there was no com.min.batr. Nearby) gave target designations to the hundred thousandth snail.

[Lopatov]

On a hundred thousandth snail, even for infantry, busting.

The most fun when "communicating" with the infantry is the adjustment of fire. Here the SOB or NSh has to sit down at the radio station himself. The infantry, in principle, cannot transmit observations along the gaps, everything is trying to start transmitting proofs, and this moment must be sorted out immediately, otherwise it will not be zeroing, but the circus will come out. In most cases, the radiotelephone operator cannot do this.

But this, of course, is a flaw in the beginnings of regiments / brigades / divisions. Classes should be held on this topic with infantry.

[Bloodsucker]

Quote: Spade

The most fun when "communicating" with the infantry is to adjust their fire. Here the SOB or NSh has to sit down at the radio station himself. The infantry, in principle, cannot transmit observations along the gaps, everything is trying to start transmitting proofs, and this moment must be sorted out immediately, otherwise it will not be zeroing, but the circus will come out.

Well, let's say do not idealize the gunners.
Actually, Old Achkhoy-Orekhovo, the target was named on the map 25, volley, second, past half a kilometer error, mat, fire transfer requirement, again two volleys, error, for the third time christened gunners a good mat = answer, and we were forbidden to shoot at the village , where not a small gang sat at that time, I had to say everything I think about mothers, fathers and their bosses, from the third time they laid two volleys exactly where they needed to, 1995, though the gunners were from BB ..

[chenia]

Quote: The Bloodthirster

past half a kilometer error

This is what we are talking about, the corresponding target designation and the attempt to correct without an artilleryman.

[chenia]

Artillery error of 1 mm map scale (usually 50 - less than 000) i.e. 25 meters.
And Meteo, or rapper. And if not. Then shooting.

[Lopatov]

Here we are talking about planned goals. Therefore, the calculated data on them still had to be with the correct organization of work on the firing.

[chenia]

Quote: Spade

Here we are talking about planned goals.

Moreover, the initial ones are based on a complete one, not only on a battery, but also at the artillery headquarters of a division (brigade) and lower, with a correction every 2 hours.
Here, they rather confused the goal number.

[Lopatov]

Quote: chenia

Here, they rather confused the goal number.

No, just shooting at the topographic data. 500 meters is quite normal, especially since there were complete seams with the cards.

In addition, these are VVshniki, they were on their own wave during the second war. An acquaintance told me: they began to "shine" with 122-mm lighting, seen by order from one of their "blocks". Constant lighting. Glasses began to arrive at the base camp of motorized riflemen. To stop them, we had to go to the battery through Rostov. That is, no access to our artillery. Even if we had a weather station, they would not receive "average" from it.

[chenia]

Even if the artillery of the BB is a special kind of troops, it will still be a bit too much.
During the war, the gunners in the rifle units were also weak, but the organization was such (the division’s artillery headquarters) that all the targets were brought to the gun, and the commanders of the units and SOBs were in the role of parrots (they only repeated the adjusted settings, and they were recorded on the shield of the gun )

And I think that they messed up with a charge.

[Lopatov]

It wasn’t worth it without a shot.
99% shot at the topographic data. Well, the fact that VV ... officers for them began to be trained only now, in St. Petersburg.
In those days, their "anti-aircraft artillery divisions" (battery Zu-23-2, battery D-30, battery 120-mm) were commanded in most cases by anti-aircraft gunners, and NSh from the same place (the notorious "ceiling" in the career of anti-aircraft gunners, they left in BB very often and willingly.).
Therefore, no special knowledge, no normal combat training ... No technical means for complete training. (this is when immediately to defeat, without shooting)

In the Second War, everyone was already firing on topographic data. In our division, for example, there was only a battery-operated thermometer. And a bunch of applications.

[cannabis]

The infantry understands the ringing of thin soulful artillery strings ... When you give the commander of the Ministry of Battery carte blanche for a week of independent preparation of the battery and then you come to a control-complex lesson. Everyone is happy! You point your finger at the map, set a goal and set a task. You turn on the stopwatch and in joyful expectation you look at the arrow - Excellent in time! Here are just a maaaalenkaya mistake in the direction of only 30-00. After that, the game begins on the thin strings of an artillery soul.

[chenia]

The enemy is cunning and treacherous. The artillery soul feels that the adversary is stealing from the rear.

[cannabis]

Mortar men every month threw grenades. True, I do not immediately leave the trench. But then from RPG-7 they shot at in a pistol way, without an optical sight. And I must say they shot no worse than the infantry. I had to scare - to tell that in the Chinese army there are special targets for grenade throwers - a tank with a painted square in place of the driver’s mechanic.

[chenia]

That's right, at least somehow fight back, Without infantry (with a direct attack on the OP) min.battery is the most defenseless unit.
That's why Vienna, Lotus in the battalion - definitely (that's just the price of the issue) ..

[cannabis]

Why without infantry? Near the battery there is an anti-tank platoon — three guns, six tracks, and many, many anti-tank, slightly controlled missiles. I taught my battery to double the standards for occupying and curtailing firing positions. It was the only 2 TA minbattery which was allowed to shoot through infantry heads.

[chenia]

Meant

Quote: cunning

Why without infantry?

Meant, outside the system.
There is no armor (even shield), nor the possibility of direct fire, nor a wide sector of fire, nor the ability to quickly change the OP.
The samovar as a firearm, in the mobilization version, will still pull, but for the troops of constant readiness it’s an anachronism.

[cannabis]

The war itself suggests a solution. What will prevent the installation of mortars in the back of the Gazelle? If everything goes as I suppose, then the war will turn from a religious into a racial one. With the mixing of battle formations and a complete "Walk in the field" as a means of survival of the peoples.

[chenia]

Quote: cunning

What will prevent the installation of mortars in the back of the Gazelle?

Well, if only transportation, and even he will tear out the bottom of the armored vehicles (we mean 120mm).

For our army, we need more solid. If the veins are lotuses for troops of constant readiness., Then the next level transported samovars to (for example) MTLB.

And not inside, but outside in a niche with a pendulum lever.
Once - the mortar fell out on the hydraulics (it will help to tear out the stove too). It is necessary separately, disconnected from MTLB.

There is a KPVT at the MTLB; on occasion, it’s not a problem to put ATGMs, and there is also armor.
The beauty. Cheap and cheerful.

[cannabis]

MTLB is probably the best for the infantry, and as a mobilization option - the all-terrain vehicle Gaz-71. That one is just a floating tracked car.

[chenia]

cannabis,
Yes, it’s also a great option (there’s probably a lot of boxes left). A little modify, new power, reliable chassis.
And on wheels. something like Vodnik (also generally need to be finalized).

So that samovars can be reliably attached.

[Aqela]

Quote: svd-xnumx

Trailed guns only shells. And the landings do not fight for a long time. A company is an hour, a battalion is up to 3 hours at best.

And what about trailed implements that the crew will pull? KAMAZ and the Urals also "eat" a lot of fuel.

Yeah. Do trailed implements no longer need draft power? And, considering that a gun larger than 76,2-mm handles cannot be dragged around too much ... Mdyaya ... Towed guns only need shells ... And the combat crew, and the guns themselves, with this attitude, are considered consumables: "Cannons with their own cannon fodder"

[MaxMelan]

We would try to make a double-barreled version. And it is necessary to do land separately for a larger BC, weight, etc., and landing. And to develop similar options for 80 mm but more rapid-fire. Options on wheels and on tracks.

[MaxMelan]

Moreover, the land option is not landing. With a good tank reservation.

[k_ply]

Quote: Operator

No problem - the air-to-air refueling system allows helicopters to have unlimited ferry range.

AA helicopters are not equipped with an air-to-air metering system (except, for example, the machines of the 160th AA Regiment of the United States Special Forces). Remains helicopter driving through intermediate aerodromes, including temporary if you fly over your territory.

Quote: strannik1985

... there are 438 helicopters in the US IDT, how many refuellers will be needed?

438 was in the 80s of the last century, now the number of helicopters in the 82nd and 101st divisions is the same (116 units).

[glavserb]

Nona, Vienna, lotus - it is clearly seen how our "defense" is degrading on the example of "Armata". The completely sawn (in 20 years) industry of the "Stalin empire" and the degradation of the design bureaus and spetsOOO do not make it possible to normally re-equip the RF Armed Forces in a short time. Therefore, most cleverly, modern design bureaus are only able to actively cut the funds allocated to them ... and report on the presence of a "prototype"! On this, all the "leaders" calm down, the media scream about new victories, and the RF Armed Forces ... continue to function on old Soviet models (which are regularly "modernized"). It seems that it is the modernization of OLD weapons that is today the Limit for military designers RF
instead of a complete re-equipment of the aircraft and the transition to samples of the 21st century ...