Military Review

Answers on questions. About the Moscow Militia 1941 of the Year and a request for help

83
Preface.


Frankly, we are surprised by the number of questions that have come and continue to come to us. There are simple ones, and there are those that are surprising in their complexity. But once it happened, we will try to answer everything. It's a question of time.

This letter, a question in which not even a question, but a request, came from Israel, from Irina Kuperman.

"... a military photo. Four young men dressed in a motley civilian. They sit with gunpieces at the ready. Mom explained that they were 1941 Moscow militiamen of the year. And one of them (bottom left) is my great-uncle (mom's father's brother) Sheplesel (Shurik Isaakovich Weksler. He did not have time to start a family, have children, because he died in the same 41-ohm somewhere near Moscow. We know very little about Shepsel Isaakovich, and three more men in the photo, maybe someone will find out they have relatives in them. I'm sure no one should be forgotten. "

Answers on questions. About the Moscow Militia 1941 of the Year and a request for help


Irina, without knowing it, raised a crucial topic.

What is the people's militia? Before WWII, this term was used only in two cases: Minin and Pozharsky in the 1612 year and the militia of the 1812 year. The headman of one of the workshops of artisans and the Russian prince, who gathered the people to fight the invaders and ousted the hated Poles from Moscow. Yes, the old man, who, with the men from her village, raised the forks of the French.

The war opened a new page in stories people's militia. So what is it? Why did the Germans initially treat the Moscow and Leningrad militia with fastidious indifference, and then with great respect? Why did the soldiers of the regular units of the Red Army say with pride: "I am from the militia"?

Yes, simply because the militia is the last, the very last reserve. Reserve that can be used in combat. As units of non-combatant soldiers, as headquarters, as "walking" wounded. There is no one behind the militia! The militia will die, and the road to the enemy is free for many kilometers.

The basis for the creation of the national militia in Moscow was the "Ordinance on the voluntary mobilization of residents of Moscow and the region into the people's militia", adopted by the military council of the Moscow Military District 2 on July 1941. In just five days in the militia division, applications were made by almost 400 000 people. But this amount was not required. Yes, and with weapons at that time was a problem. It was because the militia took only physically healthy, those who could bring the greatest benefit at the front. For five days, 12 militia divisions were formed. 160 000 Muscovites and residents of the region stood in operation.

A huge problem for the militia was weapon. The fact is that more than half of the weapons that were in the arsenals of the Red Army were lost during the first months of the war. Some historians talk about 60%! That's why we see in the photograph of men armed with old revolvers. This is not youthful enthusiasm. This is the harsh truth of war.

Volunteers armed with everything that could shoot. Old written off weapons, trophy times of the First World War and the Civil War. Training weapons Osoaviahima. The guns of the end of the 19 century are mounted on horseback. One rifle for two or three men in the militia was the norm.

An even worse situation was with ammunition. Ammunition for a rifle rarely exceeded 15-20 rounds. I spoke with the militia who defended Moscow in the New Jerusalem area. One rifle per compartment and one cartridge holder for this rifle. The rest with sapper blades. And against tanks and motorcyclists with machine guns.

I want to move a little away from the topic of the article. Irina did not indicate who the grandfather was before the war. But this is important. It would be another option to find a "clue" in the search. The fact is that the divisions of the Moscow militia were formed not only according to the territorial, but also according to the "production" principle. I will give just some examples.

The 6 national militia division is "diplomatic." Formed in the Dzerzhinsky district of Moscow. As part of 163 diplomat and diplomatic service officer (a third of the staff of the Commissariat of Foreign Affairs of the USSR).

4 division of the national militia - "financial". Formed in the Kuibyshev district of Moscow. As part of the People's Commissariat of Finance and Light Industry.

There were also companies. Musical, writing, scientific. They united people of some professions in their ranks. The scientific company consisted of teachers and students of Moscow universities. Music - from musicians and students of the conservatory. Writing - from famous writers.

I personally was interested to know which of the writers in the first days of the war went to war. Do not write about the war, namely to fight.

Stepan Zlobin. The author of "Stepan Razin" and "Islands of the Buyan".

Reuben Fraerman. Author of the Wild Dog Dingo, or Tale of First Love.

George Storm. Translated "The Word of Igor's Regiment". Author of many historical works.

Pavel Blyakhin. The author of the "Red Devils" (based on which removed the "elusive avengers").

And there was also an OMSBON - a separate special purpose motorized rifle brigade, the backbone of which was both famous athletes and physical education students, members of the sports associations of the CDKA and Dynamo.

But back to the beginning of our conversation. To the question, more precisely, the request of Irina Kuperman.

I must say that she did a lot of what the search engines do in such cases, we will try to do something. Appeal to the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation did not produce results. Irina independently applied, as it turned out, to the program "Find Me". No result yet. That's why our help is needed. Even one percent, half a percent, one hundredth of a percent probability of winning is important. Take a look. Let your friends and family look at the photo. But what if...

Find a fighter from the militia divisions today is difficult. According to the documents. It is difficult because the registration of such fighters was awful. Yes, and many fought just one battle. I will specifically cite the fate of those divisions that defended Moscow. All 12 divisions of the national militia that were created first.

1-I division of the national militia (Leninsky district). Broken under Vyazma. Headquarters and rear units left the encirclement.

2-I division of the national militia (Stalin district). Completely perished under Vyazma.

4 Division I BUT (Kuibyshev district). Successfully came out of the boiler at Vyazma, but during the battles at Naro-Fominsk she lost 60% of personnel a week before. Subsequently became 84 CD.

5 Division I BUT (Frunze district). Completely perished in the area of ​​Spas-Demenska.

6-division BUT (Dzerdzhinsky district). Completely perished in the environment under Vyazma.

7-division BUT (Bauman district). Almost completely crushed. The few entourage joined the 144 CD.

8-division BUT (Krasnopresnensky district). Completely perished in a cauldron near Vyazma.

9 Division I BUT (Kirovsky district). Almost completely perished in the environment. It turned out about 800 fighters.

13 Division I BUT (Rostokinsky district). Completely perished in the environment.

17-division BUT (Moskvoretsky district). Lost in the boiler to 80% personnel.

18-division BUT (Leningrad region). Subsequently became 11 Guards Rifle Division.

21 Division I BUT (Kievsky district). Subsequently became 77 Guards Rifle Division. As part of the division 68 Heroes of the Soviet Union and the only battalion of Glory in the Red and Soviet Army! All soldiers and officers of this battalion are awarded the Order of Glory for personal feats!

On my own behalf and on behalf of all the staff of the Military Review, I want to ask readers: let's help! Irina wrote the right words at the end of her asking question: "I’m sure no one should be forgotten."

If someone recognizes a familiar face in this photo, if someone has the same photo in an old album ... You know what to do.

No one should be forgotten, right?
Author:
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  1. Russian jacket
    Russian jacket 9 November 2016 06: 16
    +11
    Through torment and hell I did not go through laziness and boredom.
    I am a Soviet soldier, I twisted the devil's hands .... soldier
  2. EvgNik
    EvgNik 9 November 2016 06: 30
    +5
    Death is corrected for death ... It is not for nothing that is said, and our soldiers have repeatedly proved this.
  3. 501 Legion
    501 Legion 9 November 2016 07: 14
    +6
    Everyone who forged a victory in those difficult years is a Great Man. only there were so many. that for a long time we will learn their names and accomplishments. but they are all together Great people and many thanks to them for this
    1. Cat
      Cat 9 November 2016 19: 51
      +12
      And there was also OMSBON - a separate motorized rifle brigade for special purposes, the backbone of which was made up of famous athletes as well as physical education students, members of sports societies of the Central House of Sports and Dynamo

      So half-truth and feed!
      The OMSBON had nothing to do with the people's militia. It was formed from the employees of the NKVD and the Red Army (who were also athletes). Most were officers and foremen. Over the course of 4 years of the war, more than 200 sabotage detachments were trained on the basis of the unit, which worked behind enemy lines. It would be surprising that staff officers were not involved in wartime. Moreover, the training took place at the Dynamo stadium.
      1. ava09
        ava09 April 13 2017 04: 34
        +1
        Quote: Kotischa
        And there was also OMSBON - a separate motorized rifle brigade for special purposes, the backbone of which was made up of famous athletes as well as physical education students, members of sports societies of the Central House of Sports and Dynamo
        So half-truth and feed!

        (c) All the soldiers and officers of this battalion were awarded the Order of Glory for their personal deeds! (c)
        But this is generally a lie ... Officers on the status of the Order of Glory could not be awarded to them. It's a shame when with dirty hands they grab hold of the Holy - memory.
    2. Cat
      Cat 9 November 2016 20: 23
      +16
      Volunteers armed themselves with everything that could shoot. Old decommissioned weapons, captured from the times of the First World War and the Civil War. Training weapon of Osoaviahim. Horse-drawn guns of the late 19th century. One rifle for two to three militia fighters was the norm

      Yes, some of the DNO entered into clashes with the enemy before the end of the formation and completion of combat training, but the "rifle for three" is "nonsense" and "outright lies", or rather borrowed from the memoirs of the First World War. Everyone had light small arms, albeit old and captured. There were problems with ammunition and heavy weapons. Here I believe my grandfather, who, being in the NKVD, was just engaged in combat training with the DNO militia.
      Regarding horse traction and old artillery, the Germans had all field artillery and 41-m on horse drawn, and the French 75mm guns were used by Germans up to 42, and Americans in northern Africa even in 43.
      And the last thing. My grandfather always said that the 41-year-old militias were iron men who had at least two wars behind them. In their ranks, first of all, were communists and Komsomol members, workers of all specialties in the days when many fled from Moscow like rats. It was by respecting their memory that, until his death, he spoke, swore and argued with those who spread myths and tales about how "the intelligentsia saved Moscow with sapper shovels."
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 9 November 2016 21: 17
        +6
        Regarding horse traction and old artillery, the Germans had all field artillery and 41-m on horse drawn, and the French 75mm guns were used by Germans up to 42, and Americans in northern Africa even in 43.

        in, guessing, what kind of country is this? and year.



        yeah it's May 40
        Holland, 108 pieces.
        84 mm field gun Krupp 1881. The obsolete infantry gun 8-staal-may 1940
        And no one yells that they fought with junk.
        1. Cat
          Cat 9 November 2016 22: 15
          +2
          During the defense of Oslo with 280mm howitzers "Moisey" and "Aron" of the 90s of the 19th century, the heavy cruiser Blucher was sunk.
          1. Sergey S.
            Sergey S. 9 November 2016 23: 06
            +2
            Quote: Kotischa
            During the defense of Oslo with 280mm howitzers "Moisey" and "Aron" of the 90s of the 19th century, the heavy cruiser Blucher was sunk

            I can’t say 100%, but some sailors believe that Blucher died due to a torpedo.
            1. Cat
              Cat 10 November 2016 04: 42
              0
              In addition to hits from artillery, Blucher also got from the Danes stationary torpedo mount. So you are right. In addition to 280mm howitzers he was bombarded by other batteries.
              1. Karl Ivanovich
                Karl Ivanovich 27 May 2018 20: 55
                0
                It is especially pleasant that some of the guns were Krupp ...
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 9 November 2016 22: 37
        +1
        Kotische "Yes, some of the DNO entered into clashes with the enemy before the end of the formation and completion of combat training, but the" rifle for three "is" nonsense "and" outright lies. "
        I agree. Yes, and the formation of the divisions of the BOTTOM was not one. After Vyazma, militia divisions were still formed, but they were well armed and subsequently incorporated into the Red Army as full-fledged units.
      3. domokl
        domokl 10 November 2016 06: 53
        0
        Isn’t it easier to read really militia documents? Grandfather authority. I agree. And here I met with many militias. Do you know how much time it takes for a German tank company to transfer tanks (not to shoot, but to transfer, as it was near Naro-Fominsk) a train of militias? two hours ... Two hours per train. and two hours later a new train arrived ...
      4. Niccola Mack
        Niccola Mack 12 November 2016 06: 45
        0
        so the Germans had all field artillery and the 41st was horse drawn,


        Here you are not entirely right - if we are talking about an infantry division, then it is almost completely horses (only the anti-tank division was motorized with ordinary Protze trucks).
        But in moving joints almost everything was motorized.
        But they never made up 10-15% of the total number of ground forces.
        The problems were with ammunition and heavy weapons.

        It’s everywhere like this - the British (and so not shining with modern technology on earth) after Dunkirk were left with the 1st !!! fully armed division on the islands. They raked everything from warehouses and arsenals.
        The Germans had a real problem with the ammunition - they fought so varied weapons for almost the entire war that the supply of ammunition was a very non-traumatic task. At the end of the war, the nomenclature of samples went beyond all reasonable limits.
        My grandfather always said that the 41-year-old militias were iron people who had at least two wars behind them.

        The situation was even steeper in Leningrad - there regular units often did not approach the militia in terms of training and morale. "White bone" of the revolutionary proletariat.
  4. igordok
    igordok 9 November 2016 07: 19
    +4
    ... division BUT

    The fully abbreviated name is BOTTOM. At first glance, the same name with the Russian word, not always perceiving favorably. But this abbreviated name is common and should not be shy.
  5. inkass_98
    inkass_98 9 November 2016 07: 44
    +8
    A low bow to the defenders of the motherland and eternal memory to the dead.
    There is only one RN in the photo, the rest of the militias are posing with the Parabellum, Colt M1911 and Browning # 2 (bad photo, I could be wrong). Obviously, everything from the warehouses of the civil times, with the world on a string. And how such a motley company could be supplied with ammunition is a mystery.
    1. Serg koma
      Serg koma 9 November 2016 09: 32
      +1
      Quote: inkass_98
      And how such a motley company could be provided with ammunition is a mystery.


      Japanese rifles of Russian soldiers went to the last battle in 1941 year - in July they armed the people's militia of Kiev and the militias in the Smolensk region. In September, the 1941 “arisaks” were transferred to the armament of some parts of the Moscow militia and partisan detachments of the Crimea.
      https://topwar.ru/68226-arisaka-russkogo-soldata.
      html
      "...........
      Rotting fascist evil spirits
      Pound a bullet in the forehead
      Sort of humanity
      Let's put together a strong coffin "(Holy War, 1941)
      And they "drove" and "put together" in spite of all the difficulties and sacrifices.
      1. inkass_98
        inkass_98 9 November 2016 13: 15
        0
        It's not about Arisaka. There the caliber was almost familiar, 6,5 mm, for which Fedorov also made machine guns. I mean that in the photo there are four different types of short barrels with different calibers and different types of cartridges. Try to organize the supply of units covering all the needs of the fighters. Although the photo is staged, after the very first battle, the personal weapon clearly acquired unification ...
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 9 November 2016 18: 37
          0
          I perfectly understand that it is not only about "Arisaka", as well as a heap of everything that could only be "found by the bottom", what complexity this motley mass represented ...
          But after all, those who did not go to the front took up arms, but they knew that they were not going to the shooting range to shoot at targets, they knew that there were not enough cartridges and weapons were not to hell - they knew and went, went voluntarily "not sparing their belly ... ".
          Quote: EvgNik
          Death is amended ...

          1. Cat
            Cat 9 November 2016 20: 31
            +1
            Asirika, a pretty good rifle even compared to Mosika. Less recoil, lighter weight, more convenient to recharge.
    2. Karl Ivanovich
      Karl Ivanovich 27 May 2018 20: 57
      0
      I agree on the composition of the weapons, although I doubt the exact modification of Browning.
  6. tunes
    tunes 9 November 2016 07: 47
    +2
    Moscow militia - related video
  7. parusnik
    parusnik 9 November 2016 08: 01
    +3
    Disappear, soldier!
    Rise - they’re blown up even for a minute,
    Hear the victory salutes
    Learn about the holiday parade.

    The unknown warrior of the militia,
    You did everything you could in life.
    “Typhoon” vortex prevailed.
    Now overcome oblivion.
  8. Tanya
    Tanya 9 November 2016 08: 26
    +5
    The photo is clearly not front-line, it seems, was taken in the studio. High quality. People are shod in boots and are standing on a clean floor. Pistols directed away from the photographer. Not the fact that this is exactly the weapon with which these people were sent to fight. Not the fact that this is 1941.
    Information in TsAMO about a relative of Irina is. Veksler Sheps Isaakovich born in 1916 was called up by the Kuntsevsky RVC of the Moscow Region. 28.09.1941/1941/XNUMX He went missing in the October-November month of XNUMX.
    I would like to see the turnover of the photo, maybe there is some kind of inscription there.
    1. Andrey Zh
      Andrey Zh 9 November 2016 09: 15
      +9
      Sorry, this is my personal opinion, but I think that photography refers more to the end of the Civil War than to the Great Patriotic War! And the weapons are old, and people are dressed not so ... Sorry if I'm wrong! (It’s just that we have photographs of the late 1930s - early 1940s at home, and there is something to compare. My grandfather, Shmelev Nikolai Nikolaevich, born in 1910, was called up to the front in September 1941, but died in 1944 on Western Ukraine, but Uncle Petr Nikolaevich Kuznetsov, born in 1900, went to the front as a volunteer, although he had a reprieve from a metallurgical plant - this one went missing in the October battles near Moscow in October 1941. Our family searched for it in various archives until the summer of 1991, but the result
      so no. Bright memory to them! Most importantly, the country was protected!)
      1. Tanya
        Tanya 9 November 2016 09: 29
        +3
        I, like you, believe that the photo is pre-war. There is also something to compare. It would be strange to get pistols at the military registration and enlistment office and after that the group would go to the shop and take a picture. And then return to the draft board and go to the front. September 28 in felt boots. In a word, there are questions to dating photos.

        About your relative. Do you know what kind of RVK Kuznetsov PN was called to or at least a city. Maybe something can be found out, because information about the front-line soldiers is constantly updated.
        1. Andrey Zh
          Andrey Zh 9 November 2016 09: 54
          +4
          About uncle - of course, there are, but, I repeat - we searched through all the archives of Moscow, Leningrad, Bonn and Geneva. The answer is the same everywhere - there is no information, the lists of wounded and prisoners of concentration camps are not listed, etc. etc. ... However, thank you, it will be necessary to try to search more over time!
          1. Tanya
            Tanya 9 November 2016 10: 02
            +2
            Information presumably about your uncle, I sent you in a personal.
            1. Andrey Zh
              Andrey Zh 9 November 2016 21: 10
              0
              Thank you, Tanya!
        2. Karl Ivanovich
          Karl Ivanovich 27 May 2018 21: 04
          0
          In style, the photo looks like a civil war or the first years after.
          Most likely, comrades - voluntary police assistants or the Cheka, then there was such activity among the party-Komsomol asset. They were given some sort of non-standard weapons and were attracted to strengthen, according to the principle of conscious assistance to law enforcement agencies.
          My grandfather left similar photos with friends - but here are those with trunks at the ready, only until 1922-24. By the end of the 20s, the people in the photo are the same, but everything is “civilian” (sometimes even dandy for that time), they are dressed and they don’t show weapons anymore :-)
      2. igordok
        igordok 9 November 2016 09: 46
        +5
        Similar opinion. Yes, and the habit of aiming for something when photographing was still strong in WWII and Civilian, but I think I’ve become obsolete closer to WWII. I suppose that the photo was with friends from the Civil War who joined the People's Militia with it.
      3. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 9 November 2016 11: 25
        +2
        Who are the gun specialists?
        In the photo (estimate): one of the Nagans, the other Colt-1911, the third - Walther,
        the fourth has browning.
        But I could be wrong.
        1. Karl Ivanovich
          Karl Ivanovich 27 May 2018 21: 05
          0
          This is not Walter-38, but "Luger-08", the rest agrees.
      4. PHANTOM-AS
        PHANTOM-AS 9 November 2016 21: 03
        +1
        Here in the photo are the fighters of the Tula Workers' Regiment, with small arms
        Here is the factory from which weapons arrived immediately at the forefront
    2. Ivan Tartugai
      Ivan Tartugai 9 November 2016 19: 36
      +4
      Quote from Tanya:
      The photo is clearly not front-line, it seems, was taken in the studio.

      I agree with you the photo is not relevant to the 1941 militia.
      Most likely 1918-25. People who starred in the photo, a group portrait of employees, for example, the operational group of the people's militia of the city or something like that, but not fighters of the militia division (DNO) of 1941.
  9. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 9 November 2016 08: 30
    +7
    Simonov's "The Living and the Dead" describes well the people's militia. A veteran of the Civil War, a factory man, and part-time party boss Malinin (if I'm not mistaken) organized a workers' battalion, Sintsov nailed there and went to defend Moscow ...
    That’s why the German sent and sent even cadets of colleges and poorly trained scientific intelligentsia as ordinary infantry. But how could it be that they didn’t sit in the rear. They didn’t sit behind beautiful slogans, but simply protect their home, a bed with a baby.
  10. Stas57
    Stas57 9 November 2016 08: 58
    +4
    Therefore, we see in the photographs of men armed with old revolvers. This is not youthful enthusiasm. This is the harsh truth of war.

    and how many "old revolvers" do we see in the photo?

    Old decommissioned weapons, captured from the times of the First World War and the Civil War.

    with PMV 30 years have passed, equivalently, old Kalash from the times of afghan
    Horse guns of the end of the 19 century.

    What a nightmare, but should be on MTLB?
    One rifle for two to three fighters in the militia was the norm.

    I would like to see the statement, otherwise Isaev says the opposite

    maybe of course I forgot
    One rifle per compartment and one cartridge holder for this rifle. The rest with sapper blades. And against tanks and motorcyclists with machine guns.

    Is this of course documented?
    1. Predator
      Predator 9 November 2016 10: 01
      +6
      Enough to tell tales, all the DNDs were armed in the state, with the exception of the artillery regiment (those in the reduced staff were 12 instead of 24 (122), 152-14 instead of 76-24,12 instead of 45. 48% uniforms, only from riflemen instead of self-loading -Three (mainly a carbine) and in the shelves instead of a company of machine guns, only a platoon. Weapons were littered with ammunition, there would be people who need to be armed. Accounting for personnel like the Red Army, only everything disappeared near Vyazma, we still find documents on accounting in the forests and swamps or just boxes from them with a heap of ash next to scraps of unburned documents. And one rifle for three was only in marching companies (replenishment) and had its fighter who led it with the commander.
      1. veteran66
        veteran66 9 November 2016 15: 37
        +2
        Quote: Predator
        Stop telling tales, all BOTTOM were armed throughout the state,
        Quote: Predator
        And one rifle for three was only in marching companies (replenishment) and had her fighter who led her with the commander
        , and could not throw a company from the march into battle? We had a mess since Khalkhin-Gol, read the order on the results of this conflict, in the last paragraphs, when "bumps and donuts" are distributed, it says about whole shelves on the front line without weapons, what can we say about the first months of 41, when people, practically without preparation, were thrown into battle. Everything is possible, especially since the veterans confirm.
    2. Des10
      Des10 9 November 2016 10: 12
      0
      Why are you so grown-up then to the "pros", the topic is live - there is no time for thinking (them).
      1. Predator
        Predator 9 November 2016 12: 23
        +7
        And you need to watch less liberal films when crowds with stakes and one rifle per hundred went to the German machine guns to the utmost .... and in the photo there are not militias, but obviously the Cheka of the 20s.
        1. Niccola Mack
          Niccola Mack 9 November 2016 12: 42
          +3
          Or a criminal investigation - also from the 20s, maybe just a Komsomol cell - they usually had a ticket and a gun permit.
        2. Stas57
          Stas57 9 November 2016 14: 27
          +3
          and in the photo not the militias, but obviously the Cheka of the 20's

          very similar style, yes
        3. domokl
          domokl 11 November 2016 17: 01
          0
          Quote: Predator
          And you need to watch less liberal films,

          Yes, it's easier to take the train and get to New Jerusalem .. there is a bus to the village. Kostrovo. There you will also find a couple of militias and their children ... those who fought right outside the house ...
    3. Niccola Mack
      Niccola Mack 9 November 2016 11: 21
      +8
      It is documented that almost all Moscow volunteer divisions, before being reorganized into ordinary rifle divisions, were engaged in combat training and digging trenches.
      And only then - after the reformation - we went into battle - more or less properly armed and trained. And they always had enough military personnel in command posts.

      Let's close the question about "one rifle for three" and "cavalrymen were sent with checkers to tanks."
      And again - there was no sapper blades in the Soviet army - there was an infantry shovel and BSL.
      1. domokl
        domokl 11 November 2016 17: 03
        0
        Quote: Nikkola Mac
        that almost all Moscow volunteer divisions, before being reorganized into ordinary rifle divisions, were engaged in combat training and digging trenches.

        Exactly. Simonov’s written so. Met the militias. Digging anti-tank ditches ... The militia in the early days was really more used for the construction of engineering structures
    4. Severomor
      Severomor 9 November 2016 12: 14
      +2
      The rest with sapper blades. And against tanks and motorcyclists with machine guns.

      Quote: Stas57
      Is this of course documented?


      Only this way, but how else to "fill up with corpses"? Where did Solzhenitsyn get his inspiration?
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 9 November 2016 14: 56
        +2
        Quote: Severomor
        Only this way, but how else to "fill up with corpses"? Where did Solzhenitsyn get his inspiration?

        no, of course I can believe that this happened.
        but you have to write about it differently, for example:
        *** The German division, breaking through the defense, rushed towards N. Unfortunately, on its way the command could put up only the ... Fifth Regiment of the BOTTOM, which did not finish the formation, did not receive the state-owned weapons (**% of the state), was on this on defensive work. Unfortunately, there were no other parts and formations in this area. The situation was catastrophic and worsened every hour. Understanding the seriousness of the situation, the rate was forced to put ... a regiment of DNO regiments in the way of the erupted enemy in an understaffed form. Alas, having two rifles per compartment, bottles with a cop and only an 2 machine gun, with sapper blades, against tanks and motorcyclists with machine guns. ... the regiment of the BOTTOM, by the heroic efforts of 3 hours kept the enemy in its position, and at the cost of its death allowed to urgently transfer and gain a foothold ***** GV SD.

        and here so

        One rifle per compartment and one cartridge holder for this rifle. The rest with sapper blades. And against tanks and motorcyclists with machine guns.

        there is a difference?
        1. Cat
          Cat 9 November 2016 22: 43
          0
          I agree.
          Remove N and *** then your information can be verified, as well as unfounded.
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 9 November 2016 22: 56
            +2
            Yes, I generally came up with everything from my head, as an example of different expositions of one event in different ways.
            there is nothing to check there.
    5. Cat
      Cat 9 November 2016 20: 49
      0
      Of course not.
      But every intelligent Stromoskovian family has its own Hero, who died in the militia. And already the late "myth" replaced his Lewis machine gun with a sapper blade.
      Despite this nonsense, he is still a Hero who stood up to defend the Fatherland. But he is nicer to the intellect with a shoulder blade. "A specific claim to the authorities."
      Only the first DNDs that were taken out for the preparation and construction of fortifications in the Smolensk and Vyazma area could be an exception, and then they were equipped with light small arms in abundance, moreover, with domestic samples. In the beginning, it was more than enough in the warehouses.
      1. domokl
        domokl 11 November 2016 17: 07
        0
        Ugh .. Well, take the train ... 30-40 minutes in any direction and you are at the battlefield. in any village they will tell you what happened during the defense of Moscow ... Thank God participants and children of the war who saw this are still alive. They do not own the Internet and do not know how to write blogs. But it was they who then saw this war
  11. tveritianin
    tveritianin 9 November 2016 09: 59
    +3
    Thank. as always to the authors, but why is the 3rd division of the national militia not mentioned? And it was called the 3rd Moscow Communist Rifle Division. My mother’s brother fought and was first wounded in it. Then, after the battle of Moscow, this division was reorganized due to huge losses, it was called 130 SD and sent to Novgorod in the Demyansk region with the task of interacting with other parts of the front to lyucid the so-called Demyansk ledge, which was formed after the Germans broke through the defense in the fall of 41 years in the region Staraya Russa. There, in the very first battle, he laid his head on February 21, 1942, Lieutenant I. Lebedev 1921 year. So there was a 3rd division.
    1. Severomor
      Severomor 9 November 2016 11: 11
      +2
      Quote: tveritianin
      And it was called the 3rd Moscow Communist Rifle Division.

      This is not entirely true. These (2,3,4 and 5th Moscow Rifle) are not quite BOTTOM.
      Grandfather himself died in 129 SD of the 2nd formation (formerly 2nd Moscow Communist Rifle Division) in the same place on the C-Western Front near Staraya Russa.
      In connection with the fierce battles that unfolded in all areas of operational importance leading to the capital, the State Defense Committee on October 12 adopted a resolution on the creation of the Moscow Defense Zone, the external border of which was 10-15 kilometers from the capital.
      To protect this milestone, four more divisions were urgently formed from volunteers: 3rd Moscow Communist, 4th, 5th and 2nd Infantry.

      Although there were many volunteers (my grandfather among them), but in large numbers there were separate personnel units, as well as people mobilized by district military enlistment offices.
      1. tveritianin
        tveritianin 10 November 2016 09: 55
        0
        So my uncle was mobilized by the military enlistment office
    2. Severomor
      Severomor 9 November 2016 16: 43
      0
      Quote: tveritianin
      My mother’s brother fought and was first wounded in it.

      Here's more - FEATURES OF FORMATION OF DIVISIONS OF PEOPLE MILITARY (1941)
      http://westfront.narod.ru/opolchenie/dno_form.htm там 130-я (3-я Моск) тоже упоминается
    3. domokl
      domokl 11 November 2016 17: 15
      0
      Quote: tveritianin
      why is not the 3-th militia division mentioned?

      The fact is that the 3 division was not actually a militia. This division was personnel, but supplemented by volunteers from Moscow. The division really fought in the most important areas of defense. Leningrad and Volokolamsk highway.
      One of the anti-tank platoon commanders of this division was a good friend of mine. He fought on Volokolamka with three 45-mm guns. For the defense of Moscow received two medals for Courage. But he was called up! The foreman, and then the second lieutenant. and already in 1942 Godk the division was sent to the North-Western Front. By the way, the monument in Khimki is dedicated to this division.
  12. navodchik
    navodchik 9 November 2016 10: 55
    +3
    I will share my experience of finding my grandfather, Alexander Dmitrievich Chernyshkov, who died near Leningrad. It was known from the letter that he was wounded and was being treated in a hospital. In TsAMO Podolsk, one of the researchers advised me to write to the address "191180, St. Petersburg, Lazaretny lane, 2". There is the "Branch of the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (military medical documents, St. Petersburg)". In the letter, he indicated his full name, date of birth and place of call. In response, I received an archival certificate indicating the unit, hospital number, dates of injury and discharge. Based on these data, it was possible to understand further events.
  13. navodchik
    navodchik 9 November 2016 11: 18
    +1
    Irina, according to your relative, I can say the following. Here "https://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/info.htm?i
    d = 69208136 "and here" https://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/info.
    htm? id = 69207992 & page = 115 "the source of the" Post-war report on 09.09.1952 "is indicated. This suggests that the recruiting office employee conducted a survey on a special questionnaire of your relatives. Questions were about the last letter received, etc. Based on these "Household surveys" could be assigned a pension "for the loss of the breadwinner." The date of retirement __. 10.1944 speaks of the desire to make this payment minimal. My grandfather costs _03.1943.
  14. Predator
    Predator 9 November 2016 12: 26
    +1
    Quote: Niccola Mack
    It is documented that almost all Moscow volunteer divisions, before being reorganized into ordinary rifle divisions, were engaged in combat training and digging trenches.
    And only then - after the reformation - we went into battle - more or less properly armed and trained. And they always had enough military personnel in command posts.

    Let's close the question about "one rifle for three" and "cavalrymen were sent with checkers to tanks."
    And again - there was no sapper blades in the Soviet army - there was an infantry shovel and BSL.

    BSL is only in combat engineer and fortified areas, in rifle units and in the state there isn’t even.
    1. Niccola Mack
      Niccola Mack 9 November 2016 12: 53
      +1
      I mean just the name, about the rifle units - we also had rifle corps - so we need to clarify. In the division, there was a combat engineer battalion.
  15. Tanya
    Tanya 9 November 2016 12: 57
    +1
    [quote = Severomor] [quote] The rest with sapper blades. And against tanks and motorcyclists with machine guns.

    Only this way, but how else to "fill up with corpses"? Where did Solzhenitsyn get his inspiration from? [/ Quote]

    He drew his inspiration, among other things, from such photographs, for some reason presented to us as "war photography". But for the fashionable theme "one rifle for three" or "the militia had to get their weapons in battle" and such a clearly staged photograph will do.
  16. Arjuna
    Arjuna 9 November 2016 14: 19
    0
    A strange combination of Colt, Parabellum, Nagan ... and militias of 41 years. And what kind of gun is the top left? I can not make out.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 9 November 2016 15: 11
      +2
      1900 Browning
      By the way, Luger, Browning and Nagan are probably the most common that occurs in ChONovtsev or ChKistov
      1. Tanya
        Tanya 9 November 2016 15: 27
        0
        Quote: Stas57
        1900 Browning
        By the way, Luger, Browning and Nagan are probably the most common that occurs in ChONovtsev or ChKistov


        With the increase of the trunk is flat, without bevel. Maybe Korovin?
        1. domokl
          domokl 11 November 2016 17: 19
          +1
          lol Guys, yesterday I saw an aunt with a revolver on the tower of a factory near bully Talk about weapons is not relevant. they took everything they could find in warehouses as a militia
          1. Tanya
            Tanya 11 November 2016 17: 54
            0
            domokl Today, 17:19 ↑ New
            lol Guys, yesterday I saw an aunt with a revolver on the tower of a factory near bully A talk about weapons is not relevant. they took everything they could find in warehouses as a militia


            The exact definition of a weapon affects the dating of the photo, narrowing the time frame. Either Browning 1900, or its analogue - Tula Korovin 1926. After all, many write generally about the period of the civil war.
            True, in this particular case, this is not relevant, since the hero of this photo was born in 1916 and during the Civil War had to be photographed in a pram. laughing For some reason, no one paid attention to it.
            1. Karl Ivanovich
              Karl Ivanovich 27 May 2018 21: 14
              +1
              Korovin is shorter, but Browning is more likely - there are darkness models ...
  17. tundra
    tundra 9 November 2016 14: 27
    +3
    Quote: Andrey Zhdanov
    About uncle - of course, there are, but, I repeat - we searched through all the archives of Moscow, Leningrad, Bonn and Geneva. The answer is the same everywhere - no information

    We looked for our missing uncle until 2013.
    They also wrote from everywhere, information is missing.
    Well, the elder sister was lucky and at once so much information and the number of the tank brigade and the burial place.
    It is a pity that neither grandparents nor mother and sister knew this.
    Do not give up, do not despair and you will be lucky.
    Recently, in the archives or something better began to work.
    They even found information about my grandmother’s brother, the frontier guard who disappeared at 41.
  18. Stas1973
    Stas1973 9 November 2016 19: 46
    +5
    According to the photo, there are big doubts about the accuracy of the dating. Most likely, this is not 1941, but the civil period. The people are dressed in winter, and the DNO was formed in three waves - in July (12 divisions, reorganized into the SD in September 1941 and entered the battle as the 2nd, 8th, 17th, 18th, 29th , 60th, 110th, 113th, 139th, 140th, 160th and 173rd SD), in October (7 divisions, but they were immediately formed as SD - 201st, 322- I, 324th, 326th, 328th, 330th and 332nd) and in December (4 divisions, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Moscow rifle divisions, reorganized from SD from mid-January 1942, became the 129th, 130th, 155th and 158th SD). The last four were unlikely to have been armed with personal weapons "from pine forest". Doubts about the dating are also caused by the absence of belts with holsters.
    All the soldiers and officers of this battalion were awarded the Order of Glory for their personal exploits!
    Officers from the ranks and sergeants left? The Order of Glory is soldierly.
    Volunteers armed with everything that could shoot. Old written off weapons, trophy times of the First World War and the Civil War. Training weapons Osoaviahima. The guns of the end of the 19 century are mounted on horseback. One rifle for two or three men in the militia was the norm.
    For example, by September 18, 20.09.1941, the 6345th DNO was equipped with carbines - 1366, SVT - 129, easel machine guns - 164, light machine guns - 160, PP-162 (10668 according to the state, I note separately), bring the gun park I will not, there are also norms, the number of personnel is XNUMX people. Conclusion?
    1. domokl
      domokl 11 November 2016 17: 22
      0
      Stas, did you watch 1941 weather of the year? and according to information from the archive, the solat went missing in October-November of the 1941 year. And for weapons, look at the list of DNOs. just the number of people and the number of trunks
  19. m262
    m262 9 November 2016 21: 15
    +1
    But the then elite was not ashamed to go to war and defend their homeland!
    He was very surprised by the division of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, by the way Nikulin was an anti-aircraft gunner and came into the art after a serious wound, George Danelia received the Red Star for melee ...
    1. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 9 November 2016 23: 18
      0
      Quote: m262
      ... by the way, Nikulin was an anti-aircraft gunner and came into art after a serious wound

      If we are talking about Yuri Nikulin - a clown. a film artist and circus leader, - as he himself told - went to intelligence ...
      And related stories told ...
      Maybe, of course, he acted ... He can.
    2. Niccola Mack
      Niccola Mack 10 November 2016 06: 31
      +1
      We fought from famous artists:
      Zinovy ​​Gerd (engineer - sapper) - Panikovsky in the "Golden Calf" - was wounded in the leg - limped all his life.
      Nikolay Grinko (bomber gunner) is a professor in "The Adventures of Electronics".
      Alexey Smirnov - "Operation" Y "and other adventures of Shurik" - army intelligence - the Order of the Red Star and 2 Orders of Glory - a master of hand-to-hand combat.
      Here is such a comedian:
      1. Karl Ivanovich
        Karl Ivanovich 27 May 2018 21: 17
        0
        Yes, and the machine gun with which he poses, he took from the Germans with his bare hands, without weapons ... the Germans died at the same time.
    3. domokl
      domokl 11 November 2016 17: 24
      0
      Smirnov, the same famous alcoholic from Shurik's Adventures, full holder of the Orders of Glory! Airplane mechanic from "Only old men go to battle ..."
      1. nnz226
        nnz226 21 March 2017 17: 05
        0
        Yes he !!! Here is such an “alcoholic” from “Operation Y” “Two Orders of Glory” to earn, plus “Asterisk” plus medals “For Courage” and “For Military Merit” - is it necessary to be a soldier ?! "Ramba" - nervously smoking in the bushes ....
  20. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 10 November 2016 11: 45
    0
    "Weapons have become a huge problem for the militia" ///

    One of the problems was not weapons, but military uniforms.
    If she was, then the Germans, when taken prisoner, sent to the rear to the camps
    prisoners of war, and if there was no uniform, they were shot on the spot with machine guns, like partisans.
    That is how some divisions of the militia were destroyed.
    Not in battle, but after unsuccessful fights.
    In prison camps, many died of hunger and disease, but some still survived.
  21. faiver
    faiver 10 November 2016 21: 00
    0
    The topic is serious, but it is painted mediocre ..., to write with stamps from 90x is silly here, with the photo it is also unclear as many have already noted ...
  22. kalibr
    kalibr 26 November 2016 16: 40
    0
    By arms. Top guy with a Browning. The one with "Walther" - one thing can be said, it is not "Walter". It looks like a parabellum, in any case, the shutter "tablets" are visible. But the angle of the handle is not the same. Somehow he holds it strangely. It is difficult to say more precisely, shallow. The one with the "revolver" - he does not have a revolver again, but Lebel arr. 1892 Well, the Colt is below, but what Colt, it's also hard to say, the handle is not visible.
  23. Polkanov
    Polkanov 11 January 2017 15: 48
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    "Weapons have become a huge problem for the militia" ///

    One of the problems was not weapons, but military uniforms.
    If she was, then the Germans, when taken prisoner, sent to the rear to the camps
    prisoners of war, and if there was no uniform, they were shot on the spot with machine guns, like partisans.
    That is how some divisions of the militia were destroyed.
    Not in battle, but after unsuccessful fights.
    In prison camps, many died of hunger and disease, but some still survived.

    ... a look from behind the schoolboy’s desk? From a machine gun in place and as a partisan - so would be in ..
  24. nnz226
    nnz226 21 March 2017 17: 02
    0
    Mdaaaa militias "plugged" a hole in the Western Front, since almost all were killed in the Vyazemsky cauldron .... To find themselves without weapons in the way of the Wehrmacht's tank divisions .... They put people for nothing.
  25. Karl Ivanovich
    Karl Ivanovich 27 May 2018 20: 54
    0
    Gentlemen, what kind of junk are we talking about?
    The guys have quite “modern” pistols for the moment of shooting:
    - The one that in the foreground is the standard American Colt M1911 army pistol (or modification) - variants of origin, from intervention trophies, to Lend-Lease deliveries, or from trophies - the Germans used “Colts” taken as trophies in Norway in as a "limited standard weapon."
    - revolver - I could be wrong. but similar to the standard for the Red Army Revolver system "Nagan", the machine is not new, but it was officially in service.
    - a friend in the center of the photo has a classic German “Luger 08” in Russia known as the “Parabellum” - a standard Wehrmacht pistol, i.e. most likely a trophy of the first world or current World War II.
    - and finally, at the far left fellow - in my opinion, the M1900 Browning - the machine is not new, but quite combat.
    So I can only admit Browning as old, the other three are armed with quite standard weapons of the time.