Military Review

"The Earth Can't Hear Us": 75 years ago, the defense of Sevastopol began

105
"The Earth Can't Hear Us": 75 years ago, the defense of Sevastopol began



October 30 is considered the start date of the second defense of Sevastopol. As a result, the city was surrendered and actually wiped off the face of the earth, but the remaining residents defended it to the last.

"Weak fortress"

Raids on the city and the ships continued in Sevastopol every day from the first day of the war, June 22. But the German did not advance from the land.

Anticipating that this would happen, they began building fortifications in July. We managed to create two lines of defense: the outer 35 kilometers in length (at the beginning of the battles it was divided into 4 defensive sectors) and the rear 2 – 3 kilometers from the city 19 kilometers in length. They did not have time to build the third necessary frontier - from Balaklava to Kachi.

In mid-September 1941, the fighting began in the north of the Crimea. The Primorsk army, which was keeping the defense of Odessa, was transferred to help, but it did not manage to save the situation. The enemy for 10 days reached Sevastopol and counted on the rapid capture of the city.

The Germans were planning to seize the Caucasus with its oil fields and move towards the Persian Gulf. The Black Sea Fleet and Sevastopol became a serious obstacle to these plans.



General Erich von Manstein, the commander of the 11 of the German army advancing on the city, gave the order: "Sevastopol is a weak fortress. Take a march, a short blow," and in the order of Adolf Hitler from August 21 of the year sounded: "The most important goal before winter consider not the seizure of Moscow, and the seizure of the Crimea ... "

The decision of the Supreme High Command was the only possible one: “Under no circumstances should we surrender Sevastopol and defend it with all our strength.” Commander of the defense of the city was appointed Vice-Admiral Philip Oktyabrsky, more than 2,5 thousand. Citizens were sent to the front.

Back in 1912, under the direction of engineer Cui, pits for towers were dug in Sevastopol, but construction was halted due to the revolution. In 30, the project was remembered and successfully completed. According to eyewitnesses, the volume of concrete work exceeded similar work in the construction of the DnieproGES. The battery number 35 was located near Cape Chersonese, and the battery number 30 was located near the village of Lyubimovka.

General Erich von Manstein, the commander of the 11 of the German army advancing on the city, gave the order: "Sevastopol is a weak fortress. Take a march, a short blow," and in the order of Adolf Hitler from August 21 of the year sounded: "The most important goal before winter consider not the seizure of Moscow, and the seizure of the Crimea ... "

The main part of the 35 battery is two gigantic reinforced concrete massifs with gun turrets, which could be rotated 360 degrees, conducting circular shelling, numerous underground rooms and passages, as well as two emergency exits to the sea. The batteries were built to protect the city from the sea, but soon they had to become the center of defense from land, and the 35 battery was to become a symbol of the heroic defense of the city.

The German army had a complete advantage in heavy equipment, aviation and manpower, as well as in the general organization, communications and in the preparation of command personnel. To capture Sevastopol, they used the most modern weapon - self-propelled mortars "Karl", "Gamma" and the giant 800-millimeter stationary howitzer "Dora" the size of a three-story house, the largest weapon of the Second World War (defenders of Sevastopol called it "Dura").

According to some information, the command of the Sevastopol defense region at first did not believe in the existence of the Germans of this class under Sevastopol, although the commander of the 30 battery, Alexander, reported that they were firing at him with an unprecedented weapon. To convince the commanders, I had to specifically photograph a standing person next to an unexploded projectile 2,4 long.

Throughout World War II, German troops never used artillery on such a scale as in the attack on Sevastopol. The same is true for aviation. By the beginning of the battles in Sevastopol were the main forces fleet consisting of one battleship, five cruisers, 11 destroyers and 16 submarines, but most of them went to the bases of the Caucasus on the second day of defense.

The city and the bay were fiercely bombarded and fired upon, but the battalions of the marines and militia from among the inhabitants, and then the Primorye Army's division that joined them from the north of Crimea, repelled the attacks. Take the "weak fortress" on the move failed. In the future, the Germans will take three more offensive, using different options to capture the city, but in 1941, Sevastopol will still be able to repel them.


The battleship "Sevastopol" firing

In the last days of December, the position of the defenders became critical: Soviet troops began landing on the Kerch Peninsula, and in order to transfer troops there, the German command sought to take Sevastopol as quickly as possible. The Germans managed to advance in the city, but did not capture it.

"Everyone was a hero"

The former commander of the 7 brigade of marines, famous in battles, Lieutenant-General Yevgeny Zhidilov in the book "We defended Sevastopol" noted: "Our Sevastopol bridgehead is small. But it is densely populated here. Representatives of all nations living in our huge country have gathered here ... "


Production of ammunition in one of the Sevastopol galleries

A huge number of volunteers helped those who fought. 15 thousand people went to the militia. In the first days of the war the army lacked weapons: rifles, machine guns, grenades, pistols. The military council decided: to collect from the population hunting rifles, small caliber. In Crimea, local partisans helped them with all their might, who carried out subversive activities to the best of their abilities. Although a direct link between the partisans of the Crimea and Sevastopol could not be established.

Military historian Yevgeny Melnichuk recalls that even schoolchildren of 8 – 9 classes were included in partisan detachments. "Everyone was patriotic and went to the squad with a certain amount of romance, but they were the first to die of starvation, many were shot to death - in general, these guys were the first to die."

Casual heroism has become the norm for the inhabitants of the city. The workers of the Marine Plant, under shelling, repaired ships, produced military equipment, equipped two armored trains, built and equipped a floating battery N3 (“Don't touch me”), among the Germans known as the Square of Death. She covered the city from German air raids from the sea. Underground mills worked in the mountain galleries, where they made weapons and ammunition, sewed linen, shoes and uniforms. Ambulatories, a canteen, a club, a school, nurseries and a garden, and subsequently a hospital, a bakery, worked underground.
"Trucks, armored vehicles were repaired in workshops, Tanks, the running gear of the guns. The commanders of combat units, car crews sometimes with tears in their eyes begged to speed up the repair. And the working guys tried really not for fear, but for conscience, "writes George Zadorozhnikov.


Assembly of mortars in the workshop of the Sebastopol Special Plant

"In Sevastopol, I lived in the city center, but it was enough to leave home to feel at the front. I was struck by the continuity of life that persisted everywhere, despite the horror of continuous bombing and continuous fighting. I remember seeing the pilot at the airfield shaving before a sortie with composure of a person who is confident of returning, - artist Leonid Soyfertis recalled. - I remember the postman who was delivering letters as he made his way through the newly destroyed building to an air-raid shelter; she knew in which air-raid shelter her address was t. I passed on all the confidence in the victory, and would like to talk about what I see, optimistic, fun. "

I was struck by the continuity of life, everywhere, despite the horror of continuous bombing and continuous fighting. I remember seeing an airman at the airfield, shaving before a sortie with the composure of a man who was confident of returning. I remember the postman, who was delivering letters, making his way through the just-destroyed building to the bomb shelter; she knew in which bomb shelter her addressee was
Leonid Soyfertis


Young people helped adults: they spread the summons to the army, were on duty in the city, bypassed the houses destroyed by the bombing, helped the wounded to get to the hospital.

“And (now it’s ridiculous to remember it) we“ caught saboteurs and spies ”who allegedly made their way into the city. Usually, men in hats and glasses became our“ victims ”, and we were dragged to the police, - the native inhabitant of Sevastopol recalls , a teacher of Russian language and literature. “But most often we helped dig gaps in the courtyards, so that there was a place to hide during the bombings."

During the siege of the city, information about the state of affairs at the front was obtained from the newspapers. “We were happy with the victories, we were proud of the feats of the Red Army and Red Navy men. We knew about the feat of five sailors who stopped the convoy of tanks with their bodies ... You cannot enumerate everyone - everyone was a hero,” recalls George Zadorozhnikov.

"We were abandoned to the mercy of fate"

The last days of the defense ... 7 June Manstein launched a new attack on the city with the code name "Fishing sturgeon." The plan of the operation was to blockade the city from the sea (submarines, mines, torpedo boats and aircraft), destroy the engineering defense, gradually seize Sevastopol and destroy the Black Sea fleet during the evacuation of the garrison. All these tasks were carried out, except for the last: the Black Sea Fleet did not come to evacuate the inhabitants and defenders of Sevastopol.



The city was doomed: the German attack on the Caucasus and the Volga developed so successfully that the Stavka had neither the strength nor the resources to defend the city. By that time, there were two enemy fighters for each Sevastopol fighter, two enemy weapons for each weapon, four fascist weapons against one tank, and ten against a plane. And with each new day this advantage grew.

Realizing that Sevastopol would not surrender, it was simply wiped off the face of the earth — everything that was possible was burning, and people were fighting literally with improvised means. At the same time, the monument to the Flooded Ships, the symbol of the city, has survived in an incomprehensible way.

Aviation was completely destroyed, and a battalion of marines was created from the Air Force. By the end of June, ammunition began to run out at the defenders of Sevastopol, and Vice-Admiral Oktyabrsky received permission to bid on his request to leave Sevastopol and evacuate, not only the top and senior commanders of the army and the fleet and the party activists of the city.

During the night of July 1, the commanders were taken out by the arriving aircraft, and 80 thou. Thousands were left to fend for themselves. The last days of the defense will be able to survive only 4 thousand of them. After some time, General Petrov, left by Oktyabrsky, was also evacuated to lead the defense.

“The fighters fought until the last while the battery was standing,” recalls Victor Medvedev, a Sevastopol. “On the last day, going to the staff dugout ... I saw the chief of staff stuffing crackers and canned meat into the gas mask. I hurried to the last plane ..."



Tens of thousands of fighters and commanders remained pinned to the sea on the coast of the Chersonesos Cape, without ammunition, medicine, food and water. On the night of July 2, an armored battery # XXNX was blown up, with no shells left on it.

Raisa Kholodnyak, who in 1942 held the post of secretary of the Balaklava District Komsomol Committee, recalled: "They said that they tried to contact the big land in the radio room and say that there are people here. But we were not heard by the land - they said (in the radio room). So". By the evening of 3 on July 1942, organized defense had ceased, and the country was announced that Sevastopol had been surrendered. But in fact, no one gave up. The city kept the defense still 12 days.

A military doctor, Vladimir Shevalov, recalls: “I met the former commissar of the 47 medical battalion. We agreed that if one of us was injured, the other should shoot him so that the wounded could not be captured. The small well near the lighthouse was completely drained, because of a drop of water they shot each other. We used urine to filter the wounded or use the blood of dead and alive horses to help wounded soldiers. "

“Yes, of course, we should have thought about the evacuation of troops,” admitted after the war the former people's commissar of the USSR Navy, fleet admiral Nikolai Gerasimovich Kuznetsov in a book of memoirs. Why did not they think?

"They tried to break through to the partisans, but there were no weapons. They went under the rocks near the airfield. There were many wounded, moans, shouts, a huge mass of people. We waited for the ships, but then we realized that we were left to the mercy of fate" - from the personal diary of the aircraft mechanic V. Fokusova.

The evacuation of the highest military leadership and the chaos that followed is the most controversial moment in the defense of the city. Military historian Yuri Mukhin believes that it was possible to keep Sevastopol.

"It was necessary to use the Black Sea Fleet and all its ammunition in the war, and not to store ships in order to dismantle for war after the war. It was necessary not to come to Sevastopol with one ship, but to fire all German fleets with anti-aircraft guns But even without the fleet, Sevastopol could be held in. It is necessary to appreciate that they (cowardly evacuated leadership - TASS comment) made their cowardice. Imagine that the German battalion would kill Oktyabrsky and Petrov, all the commanders of divisions and regiments in one day. about .? Ezglavleny and disorganized, but how long until the moment when the position would not come and started to command the surviving officers What made the October Petrov, -. Meaner and scarier as to recover the organization and to stop panic was no longer possible. "

Stalin once remarked: "We do not have the Hindenburg in reserve." If General Petrov remained in Sevastopol and was captured or killed, the head of the Second Byelorussian or Fourth Ukrainian Fronts in 1944 would have to have been far from Hindenburg, but, for example, General Kozlov, who is accused of the collapse of the Crimean Front
Anna Agisheva


"Leaving the commander of the doomed garrison is a difficult moral and ethical problem," notes Anna Agisheva, head of the department stories WWII State Museum of Heroic Defense of Sevastopol. “There are many examples in the history of war when the commanders of armies and fronts remained with their troops and shared the fate of their subordinates. But it should be noted that any commander of the army and the front is not the master of his own fate, he is a highly professional civil servant, on whose training the country has spent large sums.

From this point of view, General Petrov should have taken a submarine and left Sevastopol. Stalin once remarked: "We do not have the Hindenburg in reserve." If General Petrov remained in Sevastopol and was captured or killed, the head of the Second Byelorussian or Fourth Ukrainian Fronts in 1944 would have been far from Hindenburg, but, for example, General Kozlov, who is accused of the collapse of the Crimean Front. "

Aftermath

The subsequent two years of the fascist occupation became a black period in the history of Sevastopol. In the first days, the Nazis shot more than 3,5 thousand civilians, in just the 22 month of occupation in Sevastopol, were shot, burned, drowned in the sea 27 306 people. 45 thousand people were hijacked to fascist Germany.


German soldiers in Sevastopol

Interestingly, if the defense of Sevastopol lasted 250 days, the release in May 1945 of the year took only a week. After the war, Sevastopol was completely rebuilt. The surviving defenders were awarded the medal "For the Defense of Sevastopol." By the way, for soldiers of the 11 Army, Hitler also instituted a special sign - the iron "Crimean shield", which was sewn on the sleeves of overcoats and service jackets.

Olga Zhukova, Candidate of Historical Sciences, recalls: "Professor Mansur Mukhamedzhanov was serving in Sevastopol for military service in the 1950-s. Once, young sailors dug in around the mountains, found a lead strip, twisted like an ancient letter, in the mountains and read:" standing here until the end! "And - a short list of names ..."
Author:
Originator:
http://tass.ru/obschestvo/3732234
105 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. 25ru
    25ru 2 November 2016 06: 27
    +4
    Oh my God am Where did THIS come from on VO? I can recommend the author to start with the book: "The Book of Future Admirals" A. Mityaev. M: Young Guard. 1979 Maybe there will be less porridge in my head. After the pearl: "... the city was commissioned ..." the level of publication is clear, but then in general request
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 2 November 2016 20: 30
      +1
      Quote: 25ru
      Oh my God am Where did IT come from in?

      Of course, I understand everything in editing, but when whole paragraphs are repeated ...
  2. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 2 November 2016 07: 17
    +5
    When you rip off an article, at least edit it, repetitions make me doubt my attentiveness.
    It’s good that, after decades, a prominent historian, it’s good to consider and give advice on what needs to be done. With one mind, everyone is strong.
    We need to figure out why and what the reason was that the ships did not come.
    I think that some important, for example, the death of ships during an attempt to evacuate.
  3. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 2 November 2016 07: 25
    +12
    “Yes, of course, we should have thought about the evacuation of troops,” admitted after the war the former people's commissar of the USSR Navy, fleet admiral Nikolai Gerasimovich Kuznetsov in a book of memoirs. Why did not they think?

    We love to stimulate pain points by combing and sprinkling with salt ...
    I do not even want to touch on the main content of the article.
    Only about quotation N.G. Kuznetsova.
    Indeed, it would be possible to think about evacuation ...
    But then, in my opinion, they would have evacuated somewhere in March-April ... That is, while the Kerch bridgehead was held, and while the artillery had at least at least 1 ammunition in reserve for covering the withdrawal.
    Starting in May, there was no chance of evacuating SOR - the BSF resource was almost exhausted.
    Confirmation of this is the results of the last campaign "Impeccable" and "Tashkent".
    Ships died ... All German aircraft chased after them ....
    Sevastopol even tried to supply submarines ...

    When it happened, what is usually called an attempt to evacuate senior command personnel, beg. the headquarters of the fleet, Eliseev, sent everything that was possible for the removal of people: 14 ships and boats, the largest were minesweepers, but mostly they were small hunters ...

    Petrov and Oktyabrsky could stay.
    And die with honor.
    But this is a completely different issue.
    To save people, neither they nor N.G. Kuznetsov, not even I.V. Stalin, they couldn’t.
    The true culprits of this tragedy are the mediocre leaders of the Kerch Front.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 November 2016 12: 47
      0
      Quote: Sergey S.
      Starting in May, there was no chance of evacuating SOR - the BSF resource was almost exhausted.

      The evacuation of Sevastopol at one time was a big controversy with u-96.
      http://u-96.livejournal.com/1107540.html
      http://u-96.livejournal.com/1109719.html
      http://u-96.livejournal.com/1293754.html
      http://u-96.livejournal.com/1339303.html
      It presented data on the combat-ready ships of the Black Sea Fleet, cash transport and the berthing capacities available in Sevastopol.
      And also - by the intensity of the enemy’s influence. For example, on June 8:
      Enemy aircraft carried out continuous massive raids on the troops and rear of the Sevastopol defense region. Up to 16 hours, over 1500 sorties were counted, the number of bombs dropped could not be counted

      By mid-June, the NWA of Sevastopol had 15 shells per barrel ...
    2. Aleksander
      Aleksander 2 November 2016 19: 58
      +7
      Quote: Sergey S.
      Petrov and Oktyabrsky could stay.


      Chief of Staff of the Coastal Defense lieutenant colonel Ivan Filippovich Kobalyuk, who had permission to evacuate and went next to Petrov to the submarine, returned halfway back and said that it won’t go anywhere and die with the battery .
      He died presumably on July 3 on his 35 battery.
      At the Memorial fraternal cemetery of the Great Patriotic War in Sevastopol there is his symbolic grave.

      The most worthy officer!
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 2 November 2016 07: 46
    +7
    My grandfather died there .. The wounded were transferred to a ship, I can’t establish a name, German aircraft flew in, bombs hit almost in the center of the ship, developed on bollards and sank right away .. This is from an eyewitness .. A notice came to my grandmother. ..
    As a result, the city was surrendered and virtually wiped off the face of the earth, but the remaining residents defended it to the last.
    .. The phrase is contradictory .. when the city is rented, it is not protected until the last person ...
  5. 25ru
    25ru 2 November 2016 08: 10
    +5
    The issue of evacuating (or fleeing) the command of the SOR requires its researchers. We confine ourselves to the fact that the command was not surrendered to a military tribunal and continued his career. Back to the article. Dear, which of you would take the liberty in one article to cover the entire defense of Sevastopol ?. One analysis of the operational environment for a full article. The decision of the Bet on the abandonment of the Odessa OR, the evacuation of troops and supplies to Sevastopol is another huge article. The march of the Primorsky Army in a race with Manstein is another article. To infinity. How to dump all this into a mess?
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 2 November 2016 11: 02
      +7
      Quote: 25ru
      Dear, which of you would take the liberty in one article to cover the entire defense of Sevastopol ?.

      You're right. in one article it is impossible to fit the entire defense of Sevastopol! Well, if it’s impossible, then at least it is not necessary to draw unconfirmed conclusions. Now about the article itself, for whom did the author write this article? The defense of Sevastopol, many have devoted their works to this topic, so when the author writes something, at least you need to check what you write.
      By the beginning of the battles, the main forces of the fleet were in Sevastopol, consisting of one battleship, five cruisers, 11 destroyers and 16 submarines,

      In a strange way, the 1 leader, 1 destroyer and 30 submarines disappeared somewhere !!!
      the division of the Primorsky Army, which joined them from the north of Crimea

      Maybe the whole army or all the same division? What kind of division?
      Although a direct connection between the partisans of the Crimea and the Sevastopol could not be established.

      I advise the author to read about the activities of the Sevastopol and Balaklava partisan detachments (5-th partisan region)
      The city was doomed: the German attack on the Caucasus and the Volga developed so successfully that the Headquarters had neither the strength nor the resources to defend the city.

      Maybe it's not in the Caucasus and the Volga? Maybe the matter is in comrades Kozlov and Mehlis?
      Military historian Yevgeny Melnichuk recalls that even schoolchildren of 8 – 9 classes were included in partisan detachments. "Everyone was patriotic and went to the squad with a certain amount of romance, but they were the first to die of starvation, many were shot to death - in general, these guys were the first to die."

      It is unlikely that Yevgeny Borisovich said this as he himself had become a partisan at Kovpak in 12 years.
      The evacuation of the highest military leadership and the chaos that followed is the most controversial moment in the defense of the city. Military historian Yuri Mukhin believes that it was possible to keep Sevastopol.

      Mukhin is an "extraordinary" personality, and such "extraordinary" ones can take Berlin alone.
      Well, the last ...
      the release in May of 1945 took only a week.

      In May of the 1945, Prague was liberated, and Sevastopol in May of the 1944!
      Type in Google the Primorsky Army in the defense of Sevastopol and you will get "Heroic tragedy. Fall of Sevastopol", "Hero-city and an abandoned army", "Unpunished cowardice. Consequences of general cowardice", "Abandoned garrison". Those. the city was defended by cowards and traitors? And for example, Khrushchev, having escaped on a plane from near Kharkov, became a fighter for democracy and an innocently forgotten reformer - what is it like ?? !! The author in one article could describe the heroes of the defense of Sevastopol. but no ... I began to describe my conclusions!
  6. andrewkor
    andrewkor 2 November 2016 08: 23
    +3
    What a contrast with the defense of Odessa !! The army was evacuated from it just to protect the Crimea, without it it was impossible to keep Odessa. A brilliant operation to evacuate troops from under the nose of the Nazis !!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 November 2016 12: 06
      +4
      Quote: andrewkor
      What a contrast with the defense of Odessa !! The army was evacuated from it just to protect the Crimea, without it it was impossible to keep Odessa. A brilliant operation to evacuate troops from under the nose of the Nazis !!

      For the evacuation of Odessa, there was still a fleet and there was air cover - fighters from the Crimea covered the evacuation.
      After the fall of Kerch, there was no air cover on the Sevastopol Route. A mighty Black Sea Fleet arr. 1941 to the summer of 1942 cringed to 1-2 combat-ready KRL and 4-6 EM and LD. The rest are either at the bottom or under repair at capacities unsuitable for this (for the pre-war shipyards were either taken by the Germans or were in the area of ​​their aviation and artillery).
  7. Fotoceva62
    Fotoceva62 2 November 2016 10: 05
    +10
    I didn’t want to write, but after reading the comments I could not stand it. F.E. Dzerzhinsky spoke of a warm heart and a cold head, in my opinion, some commentators also had a heart frozen. It is impossible to compare the evacuation conditions, it’s silly. The article gives a look at the latest events of the defense of the city by its defenders, who have fulfilled their duty and abandoned by the command. These events show the tragedy of ordinary people and the tragedy of the command that could not have been otherwise. Sevastopol with its unprecedented defense saved Stalingrad, the country, this defense did not allow Manstein to appear on the banks of the Volga in time, gave time for the defense of the Caucasus. The article is good, I heard something different from veterans (they stood up on end) and they didn’t forgive F. Oktyabrsky, although he had no other choice. I am writing as a Sevastopol, one of my mother’s uncles went missing in the last days of defense, and her brother was captured there. God forbid, you will be in the place of the last defenders of the city and their commanders, it is better to bow your heads silently before their feat.
    In the photo, Cape Chersonese, a nurse and the wounded killed by the Nazis, year 1942 from the birth of Christ. Almost three years before the capture of Berlin.
  8. Fotoceva62
    Fotoceva62 2 November 2016 10: 07
    +1
    The last tank of the Sevastopol URA.
  9. Aleksander
    Aleksander 2 November 2016 10: 21
    +11
    The surviving sniper from the 25th Chapaev division recalled:
    “When they already drove us prisoners, the Germans laughed:
    “You are fools, Ivan! You had to hold out two more days. We have already been given an order: two days by storm, and then, if it doesn’t work out, do the same siege as in Leningrad! ”And where could we hold on! All the bosses left us and fled. It is not true that we had little ammunition; we had everything. There were no commanders. If the bosses had not fled, we would not have surrendered the city ... ”


    The memoirs “Lost Victories”, Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, who commanded the 11 Army of the Wehrmacht, advancing on Sevastopol in June-July of the 1942 year:

    “... the fate of the offensive these days seemed to hang in the balance. There were still no signs of weakening the enemy’s will to resist, and the forces of our troops decreased markedly ... who could, at that moment, seeing how noticeably the forces of our brave regiments were running out, give a guarantee that the fortress would soon fall? Since it was possible to predict that the forces of their own infantry would in all likelihood be prematurely depleted ... It was impossible not to admit that even if the enemy’s reserves were mostly exhausted, the striking force of the German regiments was running out ... the regiments totaled several hundred people. I recall the report of one company taken from the front edge, the military personnel of which was estimated by one officer and eight privates. How could it be possible to complete the battle for Sevastopol with these melted units and subunits ... ”

    Major General Novikov, whom Petrov left in his place, when trying to escape from Sevastopol, was captured by Germany, where he said the following during interrogation:
    “We could still hold on, move away gradually, and at that time organize an evacuation. What does it mean to recall unit commanders? It’s to ruin the defense, to sow panic, which happened ”

    The evacuation initiative was Oktyabrsky, who gave a FALSE telegram to Headquarters and on the basis of it received permission to evacuate. Petrov simply ran away, breaking the order. Having removed the commanders from the front, they destroyed the defense. Oktyabrsky and Petrov are cowards and criminals (in my opinion), on their conscience the lives of heroes-defenders of Sevastopol.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 2 November 2016 16: 04
      +6
      I agree that in the memoirs of Manstein, that in the memoirs of soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht, who participated in the assault on Sevastopol, one can trace the horror of how the German units are grinded.
      The city could not be surrendered, in the end people were abandoned!
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 2 November 2016 17: 11
        +2
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        The city could not be surrendered, in the end people were abandoned!

        Tell me - how not to hand over a city in which already in June 1942 there was no BC for anti-aircraft guns.
        Having a "disposable" fleet as a means of transportation. "Disposable" because the very first serious damage to the ship sends it for repair for six months, a year and a half. The fleet does not have repair facilities - they remained in Nikolaev and Sevastopol.
        Suppose that the Black Sea Fleet tensed and led a convoy to Sevastopol. Without fighter cover - for there are no airfields on the way. Some of the ships and ships will be sunk at the crossing, some will be covered with bombs and shells during a long unloading right in the bay, the rest will be repaired. The city will last a couple more weeks - and that’s it. And there will be no more convoys. And the Germans will calmly land tactical assault forces behind our troops in the Caucasus.
        1. Hapfri
          Hapfri 3 November 2016 10: 36
          +1
          Without fighter cover - for there are no airfields on the way.

          You will take an interest in the number of German aircraft in the area.
          One hundred bombers. And that’s all.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 3 November 2016 11: 49
            +1
            Quote: Hupfri
            You will take an interest in the number of German aircraft in the area.
            One hundred bombers. And that’s all.

            Morozov for the summer of 1942 gives other numbers: 127 - Bf-109, 93 - Ju-87, 179 - Ju-88, 35 - He-111. Plus, Sevastopol was still sitting FliFu Sud.
            Actually, the fact that the backlashes that handled Sevastopol quietly allocated 90 sorties to the only "Tashkent" (only one and a half times less than was carried out during the day of the Tallinn passage) already speaks of the chances of the Black Sea Fleet.
            And it’s not for me to tell you about the air defense (and especially the MPOZO) of the Black Sea Fleet in 1942.
  10. 2-0
    2-0 2 November 2016 10: 37
    +6
    For once, Aleksander wrote as it should!

    I HATE this juvenile of Oktyabrsky lice with fierce hatred so that it has the largest and red-hot frying pan. If only he would shoot himself, it wouldn’t be such a shame.
    Thousands stood on Chersonesus just looking at the sea and hoping for ships ...
    Tallinn! The squadron held the artillery barrage and held the Germans. Let's skip the transition, it is irrelevant.
    The Black Sea Fleet hid and sat like a mouse, supplying submarines to Sevastopol. Was the air situation better in Tallinn? Yes, not at all - they bombed many times a day. But the squadron stood and shot.
    And in Sevastopol, by the way, there were own fighters. They could have held an umbrella over the harbor, taking into account the approach of the dive-bombers.

    And the Germans - "Hannibal"?

    When the command escaped, everything fell down ...
    1. Severomor
      Severomor 2 November 2016 12: 04
      +2
      Quote: 2-0
      The Black Sea Fleet hid and sat like a mouse, supplying submarines to Sevastopol. Was the air situation better in Tallinn? Yes, not at all - they bombed many times a day. But the squadron stood and shot.

      When I was on the 35th battery, I asked the guide - why such a contrast? The participation of the Baltic Fleet in the defense of Leningrad and the Black Sea in the defense of Sevastopol. This refers to the participation of ships in shelling. somehow hesitated and asked - Are you from Peter? ))) I say - no, I'm just interested in the defense of Sevastopol and a lot of ambiguities.
      I won’t scold anyone, BUT 1) The Primorsky Army - at that time one of the most combat-ready in the Red Army, 2) Ships of the Black Sea Fleet, namely the participation of the main caliber (volleys of the 35th battery showed themselves in all its glory), 3) Why did the fleet leave why did not defend the city. Ships (large ships) must fight, and not wait for the end of the war.
      - On October 31, the battleship “Paris Commune”, guarded by the cruiser Molotov, the leader of Tashkent, and the destroyer Soobrazitelny, left Sevastopol and went to Batumi.
      - On November 3, the cruiser Krasny Krym and the destroyers Bodry and Flawless went away from Sevastopol in Tuapse.
      - On November 4, the chief of staff of the Black Sea Fleet announced to the fleet that the coast from Yalta to Cape Chauda was occupied by the enemy. Well, it would seem that the time has come for the naval artillery to shoot the Germans and Romanians trapped in a 2-5-kilometer strip between the sea and mountains from Yalta to Cape Chauda? Not at all. Not a word in the announcement about the shelling of the Germans. Then it followed: “In view of this, all ships were prohibited from sailing between these points north of latitude 44 ° 00 '. Large ships and transports, when sailing between the ports of the Caucasian coast and Sevastopol, had to move away from the coast up to parallel 43 ° "*.
      Let me remind you that until November 12, 1941, when our troops were already knocked out from the southern coast of Crimea, our ships in Sevastopol and off the coast of Crimea had no losses from enemy aircraft. In Sevastopol, by this time aviation had sunk on August 21 a non-self-propelled barge SP-81 (1021 brt) and on October 1 the motor schooner Dekabrist (100 brt). So the presence of ships in the main base of the fleet was quite possible. " Time for big guns: Battles for Leningrad and Sevastopol - Shirokorad A.B
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 2 November 2016 12: 56
        +1
        Quote: Severomor
        Why the fleet left, why did not defend the city. Ships (large ships) must fight, and not wait for the end of the war.

        Remind you of the fate of Chervona Ukrainy? For a whole day, the KRL stood in one place - and was immediately sunk.
        The command of the fleet had before their eyes the sad experience of Kronstadt, where, in the presence of a formally strong air defense system, the backlashes were able to sink the Marat LK.
        Quote: Severomor
        - On October 31, the battleship “Paris Commune”, guarded by the cruiser Molotov, the leader of Tashkent, and the destroyer Soobrazitelny, left Sevastopol and went to Batumi.

        With the breakthrough of German troops in Crimea, the threat from the air increased sharply for ships in Sevastopol, so the Paris Commune (commander - Captain 30st Rank F.I. Kravchenko), the Molotov cruiser, and the Tashkent leader on the night of October 31–1 "And the destroyer" Soobrazitelny "left the main base and headed to Poti. 12 hours after their release, enemy aircraft conducted a massive raid on Sevastopol.

        In search of the "Parisian", the Germans even reached Novorossiysk:
        In Poti, the battleship took on board more than 500 tons of ammunition, as well as 400 fighters, and went to Novorossiysk on November 9, where it repelled enemy aircraft on November 11, using 189 76,2 mm and 320 37 mm shells, shooting down the He- 111. Due to the high activity of German aviation over Novorossiysk, the "Paris Commune" left him on the night of November 13.
        1. 2-0
          2-0 2 November 2016 15: 54
          +2
          Don't la-la, trawl-wali. "Chervona Ukraine" and "Marat" were filled up at anchors. In the same place, the "Oktyabrina" was almost overwhelmed, just a little short.
          The piled up "Kirov" is not in a very luxurious Tallinn bay with a bunch of destroyers and a huge bunch of transports (skillfully disguised (transports)), they didn't even get filled up.
          There was practically no umbrella; rotten anti-aircraft guns and air defense bases fought back.

          If the command did not have enough intelligence to keep the "Chervona Ukraina" under steam at the depth of the bay, then this is the fault of the command.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 2 November 2016 17: 25
            +1
            Quote: 2-0
            Don't la-la, trawl-wali. "Chervona Ukraine" and "Marat" were filled up at anchors. In the same place, the "Oktyabrina" was almost overwhelmed, just a little short.

            And where, sorry, there should be ships without leaving Sevastopol? Where to take fuel, shells, products and more? Where to be repaired? At sea on the go?
            If you base ships on the Caucasian coast and work on a rotational basis near Sevastopol, then this is exactly what the Black Sea Fleet did in real life.
            Quote: 2-0
            The piled up "Kirov" is not in a very luxurious Tallinn bay with a bunch of destroyers and a huge bunch of transports (skillfully disguised (transports)), they didn't even get filled up.

            I say it again - take an interest in the backlash forces allocated for Tallinn. There was nothing like Sevastopol, when already on 12.11.1941/23/28 XNUMX-XNUMX planes piled on "Chervona Ukraina", in Tallinn there was nothing.
            Quote: 2-0
            If the command did not have enough intelligence to keep the "Chervona Ukraina" under steam at the depth of the bay, then this is the fault of the command.

            Fine. Now imagine that everything ships that didn’t leave the city stand under the pair in readiness to give at least an average move. Long enough boilers in this mode? And how often do you have to refuel?
            1. 2-0
              2-0 2 November 2016 19: 07
              0
              I have already written to you below. Ships in Tallinn worked and fired. The raids every day and repeated. Ships maneuvered - everything else at night. What problems was this done in Sevastopol? What was the composition of the forces and means of defense in Tallinn and in Sevastopol? No answer needed - immeasurable !!!
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 3 November 2016 10: 53
                +2
                Quote: 2-0
                Ships in Tallinn worked and fired. The raids every day and repeated. Ships maneuvered - everything else at night. What problems was this done in Sevastopol?

                There is only one problem: practically the only group worked in Tallinn - KG77. Moreover, it was not her only goal: for example, on August 28 attacking convoy 8 Ju-88 from this group initially went to the White Sea-Baltic Canal.
                At least 5 groups worked in Sevastopol.
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 2 November 2016 14: 04
        +2
        Quote: Severomor
        Let me remind you that until November 12 1941, when our troops were already knocked out from the southern coast of Crimea, our ships in Sevastopol and off the coast of Crimea had no losses from enemy aircraft

        It was on November 12, 1941 that the cruiser "Chervona Ukraine" was sunk near the Count's aviation of the Germans.
        Let me remind you that by the beginning of the Second World War, the Black Sea Fleet had 3 leaders and 16 destroyers. By July 2, 1941, 1 leader and 9 destroyers remained in the ranks. Of the remaining, the leader "Kharkov" on June 17 at the entrance to the Northern Bay of Sevastopol received an aerial bomb under the stern and accompanied by "Tashkent" left for repairs, where it stood until August, the destroyer "Merciless" until September 1942 was under repair with a torn off nose. The destroyer "Bodry" was undergoing overhaul in Poti. Until May 1943, the ya destroyer "Smart" was under repair in Poti with a torn off nose. and that by 2 July there were 6 destroyers in service. I hope you will take an interest in cruisers yourself. That's how the Black Sea Fleet was idle during the defense of Sevastopol!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 2 November 2016 14: 49
          +1
          Quote: Serg65
          Of the remaining, the leader "Kharkov" on June 17 at the entrance to the Northern Bay of Sevastopol received an aerial bomb under the stern and accompanied by "Tashkent" left for repairs, where he stood until August,

          Concerning "Kharkov", the events of November 1941 are still interesting - more precisely, the beginning of the German raids on Sevastopol:
          On November 1, 2 hours before dawn, accompanied by minesweepers, Kharkov arrived at the Main Base, where it stood on a barrel. By this time, the enemy had captured the airfields nearby to Sevastopol, from where his aviation raided the ships standing in the base almost with impunity. On the afternoon of November 1, with the next enemy air raid, about a dozen bombs exploded on the port side and on the leader’s nose, without causing particular harm to him.

          Due to the threat of loss of ships from air raids by decision of the Black Sea Fleet command, after November 1, squadron ships began to be based in the ports of the Caucasian coast: a leader was assigned a place in Novorossiysk.
          1. Severomor
            Severomor 2 November 2016 16: 23
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Due to the threat of loss of ships from air raids by decision of the Black Sea Fleet command, after November 1, squadron ships began to be based in the ports of the Caucasian coast: a leader was assigned a place in Novorossiysk.

            Still, warships must fight. The people built and maintained them, respectively, and must protect the people, albeit at the cost of their death.
            Somehow in Leningrad it was different.
            On July 17, it was decided to use the unfinished heavy cruiser Petropavlovsk (70% readiness) as a floating battery. By this time, two towers of the main caliber were mounted on it - 4 203 mm guns. On August 15, a naval flag was hoisted on it.
            - On August 20, the destroyer "Experienced" took up a position in the seaport
            - On August 20, destroyers Stroyny and Strogiy were brought to positions in the Ust-Izhora region on the Neva
            - August 22, the position in the bucket of the Sea Channel took the battleship "Marat"
            - On August 24, the cruiser Maxim Gorky (captain of the 1st rank A.P. Petrov) was relocated to Leningrad from Kronstadt. Having walked along the sea channel without tugs, he moored at the Khlebny breakwater of the Leningrad commercial port.
            - Anti-aircraft artillery of ships was included in the air defense system of Leningrad.
            - All ships that arrived from Tallinn, except for the leader of Minsk, who stood on the dock, were included in the Leningrad artillery defense system.
            The losses of the DCBF were not frail (even very), but the ships fought along with the ground forces ... they fought
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 2 November 2016 17: 36
              +1
              Quote: Severomor
              Still, warships must fight. The people built and maintained them, respectively, and must protect the people, albeit at the cost of their death.

              So they fought - from bases in the Caucasus. If the fleet had left for Sevastopol in 1941, there would have been no one to supply the base in 1942. Because any medium-damaged ship of the Black Sea Fleet can be safely switched off from the plans for 6-12 months. For the Black Sea Fleet does not have a normal shipyard. Technical Kamasutra with "GvKrKyrKav" and "Molotov" is an example of this.
              Quote: Severomor
              Once in Leningrad it was different

              When the Germans reached Leningrad, the KBF no longer had other bases.
              Let's better remember how the KBF defended its the main base of the fleet is Tallinn. What forces did the KBF allocate to protect it? A squad of light forces and old EMs. And both LKs went to Kronstadt and Leningrad, from where they did not show the nose. "Parisian" at the Black Sea Fleet even went to help Sevastopol ...
              Quote: Severomor
              The losses of the DCBF were not frail (even very), but the ships fought along with the ground forces ... they fought

              If Sevastopol would be the last base at the World Cup, the Black Sea Fleet would also fight.
              And if there were still bases behind Leningrad, the KBF would have gone there. How he left for Leningrad from his main base - Tallinn.
            2. Serg65
              Serg65 3 November 2016 07: 45
              +3
              Quote: Severomor
              Somehow in Leningrad it was different.

              Yes. in Leningrad it was different. In Leningrad, KBF ships became floating batteries.
              Quote: Severomor
              The losses of the DCBF were not frail (even very), but the ships fought along with the ground forces ... they fought

              With all due respect to the KBF, purely statistics ......
              LC "Paris Commune"
              28.11.41 Sevastopol, fired 500 shells in German positions
              29.12 41 Sevastopol, fired 344 shells and evacuated more than 1000 wounded to the Caucasus.
              5.01.42 of the year for artillery support of the 44 Army went to the shores of Crimea released 168 shells
              16.01.42 Supported the landing in Sudak
              21.03 42 Vladislavovka. shelling the positions of the 46-th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht.
              With 12.04.42, by personal order of Stalin, it was forbidden to use the battleship in combat missions.
              In total, during the war, the battleship made 15 combat campaigns, having traveled 7700 miles, fired 10 artillery fire on enemy positions near Sevastopol and on the Kerch Peninsula.
              How could Odessa and Sevastopol hold out for so long if the fleet were inactive?
              6 large tactical amphibious assault and 7 small amphibious assault
              Supply. evacuation of wounded and civilians. ensured the transportation by sea of ​​about 2 million people, over 8 million tons of military and national-economic cargo. From the ports of the Caucasus, for 250 days of defense, 207 flights were made to besieged Sevastopol, if it were not for these flights, it would be impossible to talk about any defense of the city, because no one would put anything here, neither replenishment, nor ammunition, nor military equipment. Wounded children were taken from here.
              Of the 11 destroyers, 7-7 Ave., 45 ships remained by the 3 year, two of the 5 Noviks (Ushakov series) remained. total, by the end of the war, the fleet included 1 battleship, 4 cruisers and 5 destroyers and EVERYTHING!
              Big request, stop dancing on the blood! People defended their homeland, each in its own way! For which they HONOR and GLORY! soldier
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 3 November 2016 11: 53
                +2
                Quote: Serg65
                With all due respect to the KBF, purely statistics ......
                LC "Paris Commune"

                So the "Parisian" was driven to support the army so tightly that in April 1942 it had to change the main guns on it.
                During the fighting from November 1941 to March 1942, the battleship traveled 7700 miles, having consumed 1159-mm, 305-mm and more than 1169 anti-aircraft shells.
                Despite the absence of combat damage, the battleship was in need of serious repair: six of the 305-mm guns had cracked trunks at the muzzle, and at some ends of the trunks were torn off, the resource of the guns (250 battle shots per barrel) was completely used up.
        2. 2-0
          2-0 2 November 2016 16: 01
          0
          Savvy destroyer - NEVER stood in Poti with a TORNED nose!
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 3 November 2016 06: 03
            +3
            Quote: 2-0
            Savvy destroyer - NEVER stood in Poti with a TORNED nose!

            For other ships no complaints? According to the Acumen, I repent, wrote in a hurry and mixed up with the Capable, which by the way does not add the fleet to combat-ready ships ..
            1. 2-0
              2-0 3 November 2016 15: 28
              0
              Nah, I fell off the discussion - frankly fed up.

              (Seryoga! - haste - she podzumila many (joke)).
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 November 2016 12: 18
      +1
      Quote: 2-0
      Tallinn! The squadron held the artillery barrage and held the Germans. Let's skip the transition, it is irrelevant.
      The Black Sea Fleet hid and sat like a mouse, supplying submarines to Sevastopol. Was the air situation better in Tallinn? Yes, not at all - they bombed many times a day. But the squadron stood and shot.

      I recommend comparing the forces of the Luftwaffe near Tallinn and near Sevastopol. And to begin with - where was the 8th air corps in both cases.
      Remind you of the "hunt for" Tashkent "- how many planes were the Germans able to throw at the only leader of the Black Sea Fleet? And what did they have to cover for him in the end? Or how they sunk the" Impeccable "ship right at the crossing?
      In the Tallinn crossing, the KBF was very lucky that the backlash threw a hodgepodge of what was at hand at it.
      Quote: 2-0
      And in Sevastopol, by the way, there were own fighters. They could have held an umbrella over the harbor, taking into account the approach of the dive-bombers.

      Uh-huh ... "Chervona Ukraine" this "umbrella" greatly helped. And EM "Perfect" and "Free" too. sad
      Quote: 2-0
      When the command escaped, everything fell down ...

      Everything fell much earlier - when the ammunition at the anti-aircraft and field artillery began to end.
      1. 2-0
        2-0 2 November 2016 16: 10
        +3
        I repeat, don't la-la! No one hunted the "Tashkent", and the "Tashkent" died, again at the wall, during a "planned" raid. "Novorossiysk wake-up call". And if you mean the transition, then remember with what overload the "Tashkent" went and, accordingly, the conditions for maneuvering.

        The question is not who and how many were sunk at the crossings. "Yamato" also filled up at the crossing. The question is what kind of walrus, the valiant Black Sea Fleet was in Batumi when he was supposed to kill the Fritzes near Sevastopol.

        Which Luftwaffe are you going to compare? Air groups of Army Groups "Center" and "North" and aviation attached to Manstein, who actually had no tanks. The infantry fought.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 2 November 2016 16: 43
          +2
          Quote: 2-0
          I repeat, don't la-la! Nobody hunted the "Tashkent", and the "Tashkent" died, again at the wall, during the "planned" raid. "Novorossiysk wake-up call".

          Seriously? That is, "Tashkent" took 1900 tons of water on its way to Novorossiysk just like that?
          In total, over three hours of continuous attacks on the leader, 96 (according to other sources, 86 or 94 aircraft) participated, dropping 300 bombs on the ship (according to other sources, 336 or 360).

          According to the results of the inspection, it was found that in the underwater part of the hull from the starboard side (45-77 sp.) There are four ragged holes, from the port side (21 1—212 sp.) - one hole. The dimensions of the holes in the starboard casing were: 3,0 x 0,15 m (45–47 sp.), 1,35x0,95 m (49-50 sp.), 6,0x0,5 m (52-55 sp.) and 6,0 x 5,0 m (61-75 sp.). The size of the hole on the port side: 4,5 x 3,0 m. From the blast wave on the upper deck (71 - 75 sp.), A corrugation and a crack in the sheathing sheets formed. Completely flooded: three main caliber artillery shells, chain box, Kubrick No. 1, No. 3 and No. 5, 1st and 2nd boiler rooms, cofferdams of the artillery central, thermotank compartment No. 1, tiller compartment, artillery cellar No. 4 and the cellar of combat chargers torpedo compartments. Partially flooded fore engine room.

          Quote: 2-0
          if you mean the transition, then remember with what overload the "Tashkent" was and, accordingly, the conditions for maneuvering.

          In the Tallinn Passage, which you cite as an example, were there cases of 90 aircraft attacks on one ship? Well, or at least 15-20 - as in the case in the following to Sevastopol "Impeccable"?
          What is a "piece" against a ship was well shown by "Verp", when the dive bombers managed to successfully work out on the maneuvering ships moving at 28 knots.
          Quote: 2-0
          The question is what walrus, the valiant Black Sea Fleet was in Batumi, when he was supposed to wet the Fritz near Sevastopol.

          You wanted to say: "When the valiant Black Sea Fleet was to drown near Sevastopol? "Are you not satisfied with the example of Impeccable? Or Operation Verpus?"
          Black Sea Fleet is not TF.38. Air defense of the ships of the fleet did not even provide self-defense - due to the absence on most of the EM MPOZO, and in the Kyrgyz Republic - MSS to anti-aircraft guns. Not from a good life had to lay the routes of the latest KRL at the transition to Sevastopol with a hook almost from Sinop.
          Quote: 2-0
          Which Luftwaffe are you going to compare? Air groups of armies "Center" and "North" and aviation attached to Manstein, who actually had no tanks. The infantry fought.

          Eck you jump from aircraft to tanks and from backlash forces in a specific direction to army groups. What is the aviation group of GA "Center" near Tallinn? Where from?
          The fact of the matter is that you are comparing the incomparable. Backlashes allocated planes for the blockade of the fleet in Tallinn according to the residual principle - almost cadets were used there. For the bulk of the backlash made its way to the army to Leningrad.
          But in the rear of Manstein in the spring of 1942, an elite sat at the airfields - 8 air corps. Here. for example, what was happening in Sevastopol on June 8, 1942:
          Enemy aircraft carried out continuous massive raids on the troops and rear of the Sevastopol defense region. Up to 16 hours, over 1500 sorties were counted, the number of bombs dropped could not be counted
          1. 2-0
            2-0 2 November 2016 17: 23
            +1
            Let's go in order and without emotion.
            What does hunting mean? Hunting means targeted search and destruction. What about "Tashkent"? Discovered at the crossing and subjected to several raids. What are 90 aircraft? 90 on "Tashkent" in a single raid? Do you have any idea what 90 dive bombers are ... Who, where, when wrote it?

            What is the example of Tallinn crossing? You are inattentive. I wrote: "Let's skip the transition, it is irrelevant."

            What does the US Navy Operational Connection have to do with it? I wrote about Tallinn. The Tallinn base and the ships of the BF squadron, so they were able to fight back in the base and the main base of the Black Sea Fleet with fighters in addition is not?

            About the army group. For your information, the Germans, as in the Red Army Air Force, did not have certain Air Force units attached to a certain front. The aircraft maneuver was wide. I could have looked at the reference books, but I'm too lazy. I know that, but you do not. The one that the bomber aviation of Army Group Center could bomb objects of Army Group North as much as possible. So, I don't jump anywhere from aircraft to tanks.

            Where did you read about the residual principle in Tallinn. Sources in the studio. And so - chatter. What cadets, nonsense?

            Who said that Corps 8 is the "elite"? Who where? What is Building 8? SG77 is the elite, who said?

            What does it mean: the number of bombs dropped could not be counted? Dive carried so much, so many horizons. Air sorties counted. What's the matter? What does it mean 1500 sorties to 16 hours? 1500 aircraft flew from morning to 16 hours? Will give ist fiction. Do you even think when you bring the links, and it is not known where ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 2 November 2016 18: 25
              +2
              Quote: 2-0
              What does hunting mean? Hunting means targeted search and destruction. What about "Tashkent"? Discovered at the crossing and subjected to several raids. What are 90 aircraft? 90 on "Tashkent" in a single raid?

              This was exactly what: the backlashes discovered a ship coming from Sevastopol and, successively, in several waves, made 90 targeted flights on it purposefully. On a single ship.
              For comparison, in the Tallinn crossing:
              On August 29, German aircraft on ships and ships in the Gulf of Finland completed 137 sorties of bombers, 16 - Me110 fighters and three - scouts

              Quote: 2-0
              What does the US Navy Operational Connection have to do with it? I wrote about Tallinn. The Tallinn base and the ships of the BF squadron, so they were able to fight back in the base and the main base of the Black Sea Fleet with fighters in addition is not?

              While there were no air corps near Tallinn 8. There generally worked Ju-88 and He-111.
              Quote: 2-0
              Who said that Corps 8 is the "elite"? Who where? What is Building 8? SG77 is the elite, who said?

              8 Wolfram von Richthoffen air corps. The one that was noted in Kronstadt, Stalingrad and the Crimea.
              According to German data, by the beginning of the summer offensive, the Luftwaffe had concentrated about 2750 aircraft on the Eastern Front, of which 1500 were subordinate to the command of the 4th WF. These numbers included both military transport and close reconnaissance aircraft. If their numbers are not taken into account, then we can safely say that more than half of the air fleet's forces - about 750 combat aircraft (11 bomber, three dive, two attack and five fighter air groups) - were subordinate to the VIII air corps of the General Colonel V. von Richthofen.
              © Miroslav Morozov. The air battle for Sevastopol 1941-1942.
              Judging by the table, as of June 01.06.1941, 8, 127 air corps had: 109 - Bf-93, 87 - Ju-179, 88 - Ju-35, 111 - He-XNUMX. Plus, Sevastopol was still sitting FliFu Sud.
              Morozov even has a distribution of planes into separate groups.
              Quote: 2-0
              What does it mean: the number of bombs dropped could not be counted? Dive carried so much, so many horizons. Air sorties counted. What's the matter? What does it mean 1500 sorties to 16 hours? 1500 aircraft flew from morning to 16 hours? Will give ist fiction. Do you even think when you bring the links, and it is not known where ...

              "Chronicle of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union at the Black Sea Theater". Cit. by Medved A.N., Khazanov D.B. Junkers Ju 87. Dive bomber.
              You generally live in some ideal world - "Dive carried so much, horizons so much". And this is nothing that the VNOS posts regularly confused even twin-engine and single-engine aircraft - for example, in the documents on the raids on Kronstadt, the reported number of detected Ju-87s with German numbers does not beat in any way, but quite accurately corresponds to the German figures for Ju-88 ( and vice versa).
              Quote: 2-0
              About a group of armies. For your information, the Germans did not, as in the Red Army Air Force, assigned certain units of the Air Force to a specific front. Maneuver by air was wide. It would be possible to look at reference books, but I'm too lazy.

              What maneuver by aircraft from GA "Center" at the end of August 1941 - in the midst of the Battle of Smolensk?
              The Germans could not even concentrate the aviation of GA "Sever" near Tallinn - because the GA was breaking through the Luga line and exactly at the end of August it had to repulse a counterattack near Staraya Russa and dig out the Luga group of forces.
              1. 2-0
                2-0 2 November 2016 18: 50
                0
                What I want to write to you citizen Alexey RA!
                You and I are not sitting at the same table, though, where can you react quickly? There was a sharp substitution of the meaning of the conversation, and on your initiative. Why do I need 8 air corps? Do you have that favorite topic?
                I wrote simply and clearly:
                1. Ships in Tallinn under immeasurably worse conditions were able to fight back and Sevastopol not;
                2. I already wrote about Tashkent to you, you again told me about 90 aircraft, now this is not a single raid, but the total number;
                3. In Tallinn, dive flyers, if this is not your way - come on, bye;
                4. To which member do I have all the books with unknown counts, if I wrote to you again - SHIPS IN TALLINN WERE DEFENSE, ALWAYS TRAILING, BOMBING TO EZEL, COURSE IN KRONSTAD AND BACK TO OPERATION, AND BLACK OUT BASES! That's all!

                I will add. A little lower DimerVladimer wrote clearly and clearly. The abandoned troops in Khersones and in the Sevastopol UR are an eternal shame, an indelible stain on the honor of the Black Sea Fleet. And this shame cannot be explained by any 8 air corps!
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 2 November 2016 19: 23
                  +3
                  Quote: 2-0
                  1. Ships in Tallinn under immeasurably worse conditions were able to fight back and Sevastopol not;

                  There were no immeasurably worse conditions in Tallinn. All German aircraft in August worked on the land front - at the breakthrough of the Luga line and at Staraya Russa.
                  In the same Tallinn crossing, the Germans were able to find only 8 Ju-88s returning from an unsuccessful departure for hitting the ships on the first day (bad weather conditions prevented them from reaching the target). Actually, this indicates the number of aircraft operating in Tallinn.
                  Quote: 2-0
                  I already wrote about Tashkent to you, you again told me about 90 aircraft, now this is not a single raid, but the total number

                  I gave you the total number of sorties in the Tallinn crossing on the second day of the transition - August 29. 137 bomber sorties per day in a huge convoy - all that the KG77 was able to do with all the planes it had in this area in a specially planned operation. All - the existing group could not make more flights to the Tallinn-Gogland region.
                  And the group near Sevastopol was able to calmly carry out 90 sorties on a single leader (while the raids on the city itself did not stop).
                  Quote: 2-0
                  In Tallinn, dive flyers, if this is not your way - come on, bye

                  They flew - Ju-87R. That's just everywhere it is noted that the raids were in small groups.
                  Quote: 2-0
                  SHIPS IN TALLINN WERE DEFENSE, ALWAYS THRAWING, TAKING BOMBS TO EZEL, COURSING TO KRONSTADT AND BACK TO THE OPERATIONS, AND THE BLACK SEA NAVY DRAIN OUT OF ITS MAIN BASE!

                  Ships in Tallinn and the assault on Tallinn were not the primary goal of the Germans - they were eager for the main goal - Leningrad - the capture of which automatically nullified the fleet in Tallinn and the Baltic in general. So the Germans assigned 3 divisions for the city - 254, 61 and 217 - and moved on to Leningrad.
                  As for the one who leaked from the main base, Oktyabrina left the Main Fleet Base as early as July 1-2, 1941 - and was not shown outside Kronstadt until the end of the war. That is, the core of the KBF went to the rear base long before the Germans reached it. And only the OLS remained in the main base.
                  1. 2-0
                    2-0 2 November 2016 20: 59
                    0
                    Lesh, well, his ... okay? Honestly tired of Thomas and Yeryom.
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 3 November 2016 11: 55
                      +1
                      Quote: 2-0
                      Lesh, well, his ... okay? Honestly tired of Thomas and Yeryom.

                      I agree. After heavy and lengthy network battles, the parties remained in their positions. smile
                      1. 2-0
                        2-0 3 November 2016 15: 22
                        0
                        So one person said that a forum is not a place for discussion, it is a place where everyone yells, trying to shout down opponents, expressing their own thoughts, not listening to anything and not delving into the arguments ...
        2. Fotoceva62
          Fotoceva62 2 November 2016 17: 07
          +2
          The Black Sea Fleet did not have any "walrus" in the bases; as far as it could, it tried to provide the defense of SURA with light forces and pl. Take an interest in the balance of forces between the Air Force in the theater and our aviation in Sevastopol. There is also everything about the state of air defense of ships and the presence of MZA on them. This was not an evacuation from Odessa or Dunkirk, they would have lost the fleet.
          Unfortunately, it was not possible to save the troops of the Sevastopol UR.
          1. 2-0
            2-0 2 November 2016 17: 52
            0
            A member of his knows why I wrote about Tallinn ... There, everything was in "bofors" and "erlikons" and the S-300 helped ... with missiles!
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 2 November 2016 18: 52
              +1
              Quote: 2-0
              A member of his knows why I wrote about Tallinn ... There, everything was in "bofors" and "erlikons" and the S-300 helped ... with missiles!

              No, the Germans just scored on the surrounded Tallinn, considering it more important to break through to Leningrad. At the end of August, the main forces of GA "Sever" just broke through the Luga line, threw off the 34th Army that had counterattacked them to the flank, and rushed to Lyuban, Izhora, Kirishi and MGU.
              Why the hell should significant forces be allocated to capture Tallinn, diverting them from the Leningrad direction, if Tallinn will fall after the capture of Leningrad?
        3. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 3 November 2016 12: 59
          +1
          Quote: 2-0
          The question is what walrus, the valiant Black Sea Fleet was in Batumi, when he was supposed to wet the Fritz near Sevastopol.


          I fully join!
          The fleet did not play the role that was assigned to him.
          At the very least, it was necessary to organize the supply and evacuation of destroyers, like the Tokyo express (Rabaul-Guadalcanal).
          By the way, such problems with the supply of troops, in the absence of high-speed delivery vehicles with a cruising range of more than 1000-2000 miles, have not been resolved now.
          The tactics of over-the-horizon landing in the fleet has not been worked out.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 3 November 2016 17: 28
            0
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            At the very least, it was necessary to organize the supply and evacuation of destroyers, like the Tokyo express (Rabaul-Guadalcanal).

            I recommend to see the history of EM Black Sea Fleet service.
            Almost all new electric vehicles (except for those that had already been sunk or damaged) were involved in the "Sevastopol Express": "Bodry", "Boiky", "Perfect" (on June 26, 1942, more than 20 aircraft were sunk by an air strike to deliver reinforcements from Sevastopol) , "Vigilant", "Savvy", "Capable", "Free" (on June 10, 1942, sunk in Sevastopol during the eighth (!) Raid - more than 20 "pieces" worked on the ship).
            Besides, regular flights to Sevastopol were made by the LD "Tashkent" and "Kharkov". Even KRL "Molotov" and "Voroshilov" - and they were used as transports.

            In the first edition of his memoirs, Vorkov had a description of how they went to the aid of the struggling "Tashkent" on the "Smart", having a load of 12 "shells on the deck.
            In the history of the "Savvy" service, this episode is depicted as follows:
            Constant interbase transitions have become a daily routine for the destroyer. Early in the morning of June 27, he arrived from Poti to Novorossiysk. On board were about 100 tons of various cargoes, including 305-mm shells laid directly on deck intended for the Sevastopol 35th battery. After refueling, Soobrazitelny was supposed to break into the besieged fortress city. But at 6.40 it was necessary to interrupt the reception of fuel oil: an order was received to immediately go to sea to meet the seriously damaged leader of Tashkent.

            Returning from Sevastopol, "Tashkent" was met 26 miles from the coast. Having taken about 1000 tons of water and plunged with his nose on the upper deck, the leader miraculously kept afloat. And on board were about 3000 people! The Clever went to the starboard side of the damaged ship and withdrew 1975 wounded soldiers and evacuated civilians from it. The destroyer couldn’t take it anymore: its stability was already causing concern.
    3. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 2 November 2016 16: 12
      +6
      Quote: 2-0
      I HATE this juvenile of Oktyabrsky lice with fierce hatred so that it has the largest and red-hot frying pan. If only he would shoot himself, it wouldn’t be such a shame.
      Thousands stood on Chersonesus just looking at the sea and hoping for ships ...


      I always want to remind those who talk about the heroic Black Sea Fleet - sailors and officers - yes heroic.
      The troops and people abandoned on Chersonesos are an eternal shame, which is in every possible way disguised in Soviet literature with colorful terms like "the last heroic defenders of Chersonesos" ... and so on.
      But in fact, abandoned by the fleet and Oktyabrsky in the first place.
    4. Hapfri
      Hapfri 3 November 2016 10: 38
      0
      Let's skip the transition, it is irrelevant.

      Wow, nothing. It just shows the level of leadership.
  11. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 2 November 2016 11: 10
    +4
    The abandonment of Sevastopol is actually a "dark" and "dirty" story. "Unexpected" explosion "of technical factories" of Inkerman, detonating the battery N35, which allegedly did not "have any shells" (although there are German photographs in which Wehrmacht soldiers wander around the battery among the scattered shells). Also, not providing assistance and leaving the key batteries N10 and N30- are all nodes of the same chain, I'm even afraid to think that I might end up at the end of this "chain" ... But the fact that an honest investigation of that tragedy should be made impartially is fact.
  12. alexej123
    alexej123 2 November 2016 11: 14
    +1
    I do not presume to judge for the actions of the command. History has no subjunctive mood. But I agree with Fotoceva62. Who knows, if it were not for the Heroic Defense of Sevastopol, the fate of Stalingrad and the Caucasus would have developed. The city was pulling on itself German forces. And Manstein near Stalingrad appeared late.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 November 2016 13: 59
      +2
      Quote: alexej123
      Who knows, if it were not for the Heroic Defense of Sevastopol, the fate of Stalingrad and the Caucasus would have developed. The city was pulling on itself German forces. And Manstein near Stalingrad appeared late.

      Ahem ... actually, after Sevastopol, Manstein was supposed to storm Leningrad - Operation Nordlicht. Where he went with the army.
      And he arrived exactly in time for the start of our next operation to break through the Blockade. As a result:
      forces trained to storm Leningrad are being used more and more to deter this attack
      © Halder
      1. alexej123
        alexej123 3 November 2016 09: 27
        0
        Alexei, I had in mind Manstein’s attempt to de-launch the 6 Army of Paulus.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 3 November 2016 12: 04
          +2
          Quote: alexej123
          Alexei, I had in mind Manstein’s attempt to de-launch the 6 Army of Paulus.

          Yes I understand. Just the appearance of Manstein near Stalingrad is in no way connected with Sevastopol - at that time he had long been sitting near St. Petersburg. It’s better to say that Mannstein near Leningrad will appear late.
          Although ... if the "Nordlicht" had begun before the Sinyavino operation of 1942, then the advancing forces of Manstein would have received a blow to the rear, already being shackled by the defense forces of Leningrad. And the Germans would have, instead of bringing fresh units into battle, dismantle the advancing group on the move.
          1. alexej123
            alexej123 3 November 2016 13: 13
            0
            Alex, thank you very much. Just in your case, you will learn a lot from the comments. hi
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 2 November 2016 16: 15
      +4
      Quote: alexej123
      I do not presume to judge for the actions of the command. History has no subjunctive mood. But I agree with Fotoceva62. Who knows, if it were not for the Heroic Defense of Sevastopol, the fate of Stalingrad and the Caucasus would have developed. The city was pulling on itself German forces. And Manstein near Stalingrad appeared late.


      This is nonsense and ignorance of history.

      After the capture of Sevastopol, Manstein and the troops were transferred to Leningrad!
      This is in many sources - bother to study before repeating nonsense.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 3 November 2016 08: 00
        +3
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        This is nonsense and ignorance of history.

        Quote: DimerVladimer
        This is in many sources - bother to study before repeating the nonsense

        laughing And you mean a connoisseur of history? Oh hold me seven !!! wassat
      2. alexej123
        alexej123 3 November 2016 09: 34
        +2
        Leave your categoricalness for your children. I never claimed to know history. And you don't know everything either. I made a guess as Manstein was trying to unblock the 6th Army. Unlike you, the "expert" Alexey RA calmly explained. Delirium is when you read books and consider yourself the Messiah. This is nonsense. In fact, that Sevastopol pulled back the forces of the Germans, which were needed elsewhere, is there anything to say? And finally, DB. Do you understand me?
      3. alexej123
        alexej123 3 November 2016 09: 42
        +1
        "Historian", what did Father Varlaam talk about with Grishka the impostor on the Lithuanian border?
  13. Landing Station6
    Landing Station6 2 November 2016 14: 44
    +1
    Unfortunately, during that war there were enough tragic defeats - Kiev, Kharkov, etc. And the heroic Stalingrad began with a retreat incomparable so far. The commander is always to blame for the defeats, but ....
    Judge not lest ye be judged!
    1. Monster_Fat
      Monster_Fat 2 November 2016 15: 31
      +3
      Judge not lest ye be judged!

      Only not that with regards to military operations. This is not "judgment" - this is "analysis." After any military operations, regardless of how they ended - successfully, defeated, or everything remained without significant changes, the staffs always conduct a sober and impartial analysis in order to identify their own and the enemy's strengths and weaknesses, find what to improve, what to change, to identify the wrong and wrong actions to prevent them in the future, etc. The actions of all commanders are also characterized in order to determine whether they are in their place or not, the possibility of their promotion to higher positions or, on the contrary, leaving them in their previous positions or with demotion. This is the "analysis" that is absolutely necessary in the constantly carried out in military affairs. The fact that such an analysis was not carried out in relation to the Sevastopol operation is a fact, or it was carried out, but remains classified to the present. I happened to get acquainted with some documents of the commanders of units and subdivisions of the Sevastopol Fortress and UR, as well as with Mehlis's reviews of these documents. So I was struck by the fact that these reports (not all, of course, but very many) were replete with all sorts of praises of their loved ones and the heroism of subordinates and there was no analysis of their actions and the enemy, and these reports did not contain conclusions about the consequences, such a feeling, that they were written under the dictation of political instructors or someone else. Mekhlis, contrary to the opinion of him as an amateur, noticed this and published whole circulars about "fraud" and "underlined" heroism "in the reports of the command staff, where he wrote that the reports did not contain any useful information on the basis of which the command could be He also noted the passivity of the high command, resting on its laurels, completely giving up the initiative to the enemy and not conducting reconnaissance of the enemy's plans, as well as not keeping the correct account of the forces and means of defense.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 2 November 2016 16: 49
        +3
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        Mekhlis, contrary to the opinion of him as an amateur, noticed this and published whole circulars about "fraud" and "emphasized" heroism "in the reports of the command staff, where he wrote that the reports did not contain any useful information on the basis of which the command could to draw a conclusion about the situation in a particular sector of defense.

        The Mehlis has begun to analyze such reports back in Soviet-Finnish. When everything was just fine according to the documents, but in fact the division was stretched out on the road, it was divided by a pair of Finnish battalions into motts, and the division’s divisions sat down in the dead defenses and watched the Finns build blockages before their eyes and finish off their neighbors.
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 3 November 2016 08: 05
        +2
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        This is not "condemnation" - this is "analysis"

        With all due respect. analysis - this is when all the raw data is collected in a heap and conclusions are made based on them! In this case, the analysis does not smell. it smells like the blackening of the personalities of those who defended MY HOMELAND !!!
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 2 November 2016 16: 21
      +3
      Quote: Airborne6
      Unfortunately, during that war there were enough tragic defeats - Kiev, Kharkov, etc. And the heroic Stalingrad began with a retreat incomparable so far. The commander is always to blame for the defeats, but ....
      Judge not lest ye be judged!


      While the "marshals of victory" were alive, no one dared to analyze their mistakes.
      So until now there is no clear analysis of military defeats and millions of people have no idea about the real losses and errors of command and the price of these errors. Without this there is no history - there are myths about the Second World War.
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 2 November 2016 22: 39
        +3
        Quote: DimerVladimer

        2
        DimerVladimer Today, 16:21 ↑ New
        Quote: Airborne6
        Unfortunately, during that war there were enough tragic defeats - Kiev, Kharkov, etc. And the heroic Stalingrad began with a retreat incomparable so far. The commander is always to blame for the defeats, but ....
        Judge not lest ye be judged!


        While the "marshals of victory" were alive, no one dared to analyze their mistakes.


        And then they had a "monopoly on truth" and all other assessments were simply rejected.
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 3 November 2016 08: 07
        +2
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        So until now there is no clear analysis of military defeats and millions of people have no idea about the real losses and errors of command and the price of these errors. Without this there is no history - there are myths about the Second World War.

        good
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        This is in many sources - bother to study before repeating nonsense.

        bully
        1. The comment was deleted.
  14. 25ru
    25ru 2 November 2016 16: 14
    +1
    The case is hopeless, he said right away, no less than Tsushima, but since they started, how much is enough for me today, let's talk:
    1. NOBODY and NEVER pleaded or forgot the feat of Sevastopol. This is for commentators with an "uncold heart". Any naval officer, with a secondary school education and did not bang his ears at the VVUZ - knows and remembers everything perfectly. Closing the title section: I happened to be in this beautiful city 6 times, after ... uh, certain events, I was not in this territory of the Russian Federation. I'll get better. I did not see everything with my eyes and felt it with my hands.
    2. Which is closer to the body. Fleet. The fleet carried out its tasks "inside and out." Have you ever seen the term "Sevastopol Express"? And he is. Unfortunately, it is difficult to find the origin of the term in the sea of ​​information. The fleet paid for Sevastopol everything and still above. The very meaning of the term: EM / KRL comes out of the calculation for a day transition, with at least minimal fighter cover, a breakthrough section at maximum speed at dusk, night - artillery support for assigned targets, unloading - loading, farewell shooting of the main ship missile for assigned targets and full speed in order to be able to fight off at least some time in the morning twilight, before entering the cover zone of their fighters. That's how they walked. There are also unknown slow-moving Heroes, but that was later.
    If interested, let's continue. I haven't started talking about the fleet yet. And in front of the battery No. 30,35 (and for each - a low bow to the guys, the search engines and simple historians and people there): collected, processed and ready for printing material, for each battery - take the guys, the monograph is almost ready. Who would be engaged in printing. And the Zhelyaznyakov armored train?
    I just get lost on the number of topics.
    And everything is offered in one article? From the beginning of the defense (from what date?) To the presentation to the rank of Hero City?
    NOT guys https://topwar.ru/user/Fotoceva62/. This is the end result. And I hope no one will ever see it again. But the title of the article is: "The earth does not hear us": the defense of Sevastopol began 75 years ago.
    We will discuss just that. This is IMHO.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 November 2016 17: 42
      +3
      Quote: 25ru
      The very meaning of the term: EM / KRL is based on a daylight transition, with at least minimal fighter cover, breakout area at maximum speed at dusk, night - artillery support for designated targets, unloading - loading, farewell shooting of BC GK for designated targets and full speed to be able to fight off at least some time in the morning twilight, before entering the fighter cover zone. And so they walked.

      Moreover, the routes, in order to approach Sevastopol at dusk and not be discovered during the crossing (and reconnaissance planes began to graze our ships off the Caucasian coast), were chosen the most bizarre. In the memoirs of the navigator of the Light Forces Detachment of the Black Sea Fleet BF Petrov ("In battles and campaigns"), a variant developed by him was described with an exit at an inopportune hour, throwing a cruiser to the Turkish coast and further sneaking up to Sevastopol on the middle course - in order to "choose" too much time.
  15. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 2 November 2016 16: 19
    +3
    Quote: Airborne6
    Judge not lest ye be judged!


    We do not judge, but we remember that the Russian fleet was honored with the highest honor when the ship commander was the last to leave the sinking ship or die with it.

    The top military leadership of the Sevastopol defensive area, bypassing Budyonny, sent Shaposhnikov one telegram after another so that they would be given the "go-ahead" to transfer the Sevastopol defense headquarters to the Caucasus, and the intelligent Shaposhnikov, of course, could not refuse them ...

    And how many Soviet generals who were surrounded by their troops did not leave them, despite the fact that planes sent for them. Glory to them!

    But Sevastopol could still be defended, in the naval warehouses there were a lot of ammunition and other supplies, and Glory to the unknown hero who at the cost of his life blew up and brought down a granite rock that closed the warehouse entrances where all this was stored. Otherwise, the Nazis would have gone.

    In the year 72, I did an internship in the Black Sea Fleet, we were given overcoats and soap from naval supplies of 1939, and in the arsenals we saw mines, torpedoes and other ammunition from the pre-war release.
  16. 2-0
    2-0 2 November 2016 16: 34
    0
    Abstracting from the topic, taking into account my opinion.
    In general, the defense of the Navy is complex and troublesome. Not so, so different.
    Sevastopol, Tallinn - infantry, Taranto, Pearl Harbor - aviation, Alexandria - combat swimmers, Scapa Flow - Prien managed to crawl, we must also remember how Viribus Unitis was sunk - also swimmers.
  17. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 2 November 2016 16: 51
    +3
    Interestingly, while the defense of Sevastopol lasted 250 days, the liberation in May 1945 took only a week.


    This is because, nevertheless, the Germans tried to evacuate the 17th army:
    http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/26/1417
    As of April 18, 124.233 troops from the 17th army were assembled in Sevastopol.
    78.000 Germans and 46.000 Romanians

    64.563 people including Romanians were taken out
    24.361 German soldiers and officer surrendered.
    The rest apparently died during the evacuation.

    In total, the enemy lost 578 aircraft, 299 tanks and self-propelled guns, 3.079 mortar guns in the Crimea and Sevastopol.
    During this period, aviation and ships of the Black Sea Fleet sank 69 transports, 56 BDB, 2 patrol ships, 2 gunboats, 3 minesweepers, 27 patrol boats, 32 ships of other types. A total of 191 ships and boats were sunk.
  18. 25ru
    25ru 2 November 2016 17: 07
    0
    Abstracting from the topic, taking into account my opinion.
    In general, the defense of the Navy is complex and troublesome. Not so, so different.
    Sevastopol, Tallinn - infantry, Taranto, Pearl Harbor - aviation, Alexandria - combat swimmers, Scapa Flow - Prien managed to crawl, we must also remember how Viribus Unitis was sunk - also swimmers.

    Yes, not that a very big problem. There was a good idea - a battle in a mine-artillery position: NO ONE WAS SEEN winked such an obstacle. His ersatz - minesweepers gnaw - the forces of protection of the water area work on them, they have a limit of permissible losses. The battleship (and now I will be torn to the British flag) "Slava" - a slightly improved "Borodino", which did not receive anything real, important, following the results of the RYAV - shoots somewhere.
    Song.
  19. Fitter65
    Fitter65 2 November 2016 17: 20
    +1
    On the night of July 1, the command staff was taken out by arriving airplanes, and 80 thousand people were left to their own devices.

    Well, of course, the bloody regime saved the mediocre elite ... So for reflection, who were the first to be taken out of the Dunkirk by the British, and the Germans from North Africa, Whom the Germans first of all took out of the boilers, with Stalingrad they went berserk-unexpected. This is the main guide and the performers there are always. Of course it sounds cynical, but it’s vital. Again, who was operated on in the first place? Those who were more likely to recover were better. And then the others went, as doctors freed ... Therefore, what is the first priority from the dying SEVASTOPAL exported leadership there is nothing reprehensible.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 3 November 2016 12: 26
      +2
      Quote: Fitter65
      So, to reflect on who the British first took from the Dunkirk, and the Germans from North Africa, Whom the Germans took out of the boilers first of all, they laughed with Stalingrad - it turned out to be unexpected.

      Heh heh heh ... You forgot the most striking example of the evacuation of the command staff - when a certain commander of the forces holding the enemy’s base surrounded, mounted a torpedo boat and vowing to return, departed ... to Australia. Moreover, for the delivery of the commander with his retinue, I had to leave in this very base a part of the personnel of the 3rd TCA squadron that delivered him.
      History remembered March 11, 1942 as the day General Douglas MacArthur left Correchidor Fortress Island. On the same day, 32 sailors and officers from the 3rd squadron of torpedo boats, for lack of space on the boats, were left on the Rock, becoming part of the US Army fighting the Japanese on Bataan and Correchidore.

      This evening, at 19:30, Lieutenant Balkley on RT-41 approached Correhidor’s North Pier in order to pick up his passengers, including General MacArthur with his wife and young son, Chinese maid and Major General Richard K. Sutherland , chief of staff of MacArthur. Lieutenant Kelly on RT-34 and warrant officer Akers on RT-35 took their passengers aboard in the Sisimen Cove backwater. In addition, Rear Admiral Rockwell, the Fourth Boat, the RT-34, under the command of Lieutenant Schumacher, was taken aboard the RT-32 and took its passengers to the Quarantine Pier in Mariveles. Altogether, twenty-three passengers took the boats — twenty-one from the MacArthur suite and two naval officers — Admiral Rockwell and his captain chief of staff Herbert Ray.
      1. Fitter65
        Fitter65 3 November 2016 13: 48
        0
        Just a practical approach. And I have no doubt that these generals and admirals did not feel remorse. They simply could not forgive themselves for their deaths. But to save a couple, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands ... they could not always! But they could kill 10 thousand to save millions, and I believe that they remembered them too. When a bear kills your dog on a hunt, it rushes at him and gives you a couple of moments — his death — to survive and kill the bear. It seems to have passed so many years, and you remember this bitch. You swear to yourself that if you walked along the road it’s not so careless, after all, there’s a trace ... But I’m great, I’m projecting on my own. Although it may not be ...
  20. Operator
    Operator 2 November 2016 17: 38
    0
    The surface fleet - a completely stupid thing already in WWII, could not protect and ensure the supply of ammunition even to its equipped with the most I can not naval base.

    What can I say about the supposedly capabilities of the surface fleet to ensure naval landing operations on an unequipped coast.

    Aviation has been steering for 75 years, plus missiles for the last 30 years. It is high time to write off everything that is more than a corvette into scrap metal.
    1. Bloodsucker
      Bloodsucker 2 November 2016 17: 44
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      the naval fleet - a completely stupid thing already in WWII, could not protect and ensure the supply of ammunition even to its equipped BMB.

      Buy yourself a cardboard boat.
      If she drowns and does not live up to your hopes, go to a ship modeling circle, collect a model of a submarine there, test in a nearby pond, if you get tangled in algae, write a report on the uselessness and the melt.
      Aviation, according to your logic, is an absolutely dead end path, there is a bunch of very cool air defense, meaning, aviation is a junk.
      In general, write off everything, throw everything away. Arm yourself with a drekole and wicker shields from straw ....
      1. Operator
        Operator 2 November 2016 17: 50
        0
        Do not ascribe to me your complexes regarding corvettes, submarines and aviation laughing
        1. Bloodsucker
          Bloodsucker 2 November 2016 18: 55
          0
          These are your ... complexes.
          I recommend serving in the Navy of Burkina Faso, just according to your recipes, there is nothing.
          http://pochta-polevaya.ru/militaryanalytics/datab
          ase_bc / a156541.html
          1. Operator
            Operator 2 November 2016 20: 04
            0
            I did not know about the successes of Burkina Faso in the submarine laughing
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 November 2016 18: 43
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      The surface fleet - a completely stupid thing already in WWII, could not protect and ensure the supply of ammunition even to its equipped with the most I can not naval base.

      What can I say about the supposedly capabilities of the surface fleet to ensure naval landing operations on an unequipped coast.

      Watching whose fleet. Some landed entire corps and armies on the unequipped coast. And the last MAO in conditions of approximate equality of forces was, EMNIP, in 1982 - and the landing force passed the entire Atlantic.
      1. Operator
        Operator 2 November 2016 20: 09
        0
        Some landed armies when crossing the Channel and the dominance of their coastal aviation, and some landed brigades in conditions of close to zero opposition to enemy aircraft laughing
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 3 November 2016 12: 31
          0
          Quote: Operator
          Some landed the army when crossing the Canal and the dominance of its coastal aviation

          Your Eurocentrism brings you down. smile For I meant Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
          Quote: Operator
          and still some landed brigades in conditions of close to zero opposition to enemy aircraft

          Tell this to the crews and paratroopers from "Sir Galahead" and "Sir Tristram" - about enemy counteraction close to zero. smile
          1. Operator
            Operator 3 November 2016 13: 19
            0
            Trim the sturgeon with your Asiancentrism - how many armies were landed on Iwo Jima and Okinawa? love

            And no one in the British Navy promised a purely zero opposition to Argentine aviation lol
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 3 November 2016 17: 01
              0
              Quote: Operator
              Trim the sturgeon with your Asiancentrism - how many armies were landed on Iwo Jima and Okinawa?

              On Okinawa - 10 army of 200 thousand people. Moreover, the American "corps" in other countries could well be considered armies - especially the Marines with their mega-divisions of 20-25 thousand.
              Quote: Operator
              And no one in the British Navy promised a purely zero opposition to Argentine aviation

              That is, there was opposition. And the Argentines themselves are vicious Pinocchio, since they could not properly prepare the armament of their aircraft and organize a full-fledged strike - with normally fired Argentinean bombs, the landing would have been difficult.
              1. Operator
                Operator 3 November 2016 18: 13
                0
                Noticed - 182 thousands of Americans landed on Okinawa (one army, not the army), but not the point. Enlighten me - how many Japanese aircraft in Okinawa had?
  21. 25ru
    25ru 2 November 2016 19: 17
    +1
    Oh god and got here Orator. If he is here, then: our torpedoes, all torpedoes; our shells are all cooler; of all the arrogant Saxons and non-Christians, and the f ... regional committee, which they act at the direction of, who have acted upon them, We fa ... but, damn it, sleep ... in short, we understood. We are the coolest: we have long had a laser from outer space with a green frog shoots at the smell of hemp at slippers from space with guidance over the gloomy twilight Orator.
    That’s tenacious, what else would it be wink
  22. 25ru
    25ru 2 November 2016 19: 30
    0
    Fsem! Fsem! Fsem! Especially for residents of foreign intelligence who want to have fun communicating with a peculiarly stubborn carrier of information, not so completely secret, not. Sense at the point of the angle of information. An ordinary technician, well, a little more trained - enough.
    So: keys for trolling.
    1.AUG
    2. Strategic Rocket Forces.
    3.RKSN.
    4. PAK-FA
    Yes, that's enough, I guess. Forward fool
    They told you a hundred times: shut your mouth.
    1. Operator
      Operator 2 November 2016 20: 14
      0
      Oh, a sweetheart from the historical homeland of 25ru pulled.
      Change your avatar to 25il, unchrist.
  23. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 3 November 2016 02: 10
    +3
    Quote: Fotoceva62
    The article is good, I heard something different from veterans (they stood up on end) and they didn’t forgive F. Oktyabrsky, although he had no other choice. I am writing as a Sevastopol, one of my mother’s uncles went missing in the last days of defense, and her brother was captured there. God forbid, you will be in the place of the last defenders of the city and their commanders, it is better to bow your heads silently before their feat.

    I am from Leningrad.
    But Sevastopol is dear to me.
    From preschool childhood, from the 1960s.
    About the Feat of Sevastopol collected all shades of Truth in itself ...
    I am experiencing the tragedy of Sevastopol without dulling my feelings.
    For those who want to understand the essence of the tragedy, I recommend starting with a small book by I.S. Manoshin "Heroic Tragedy".
    As for the article under discussion, I can not agree, for example, with such words on such a painful and sensitive issue:
    During the night of July 1, the commanders were taken out by the arriving aircraft, and 80 thou. Thousands were left to fend for themselves. The last days of the defense will be able to survive only 4 thousand of them. After some time, General Petrov, left by Oktyabrsky, was also evacuated to lead the defense.

    Oktyabrsky and his headquarters took off on the same plane ... which was from a group that attempted to supply the Sora ... and was specifically detained. By this time, the defense was held only by Heroes, who did not need an order for the last battle ... The rest, having spent ammunition, gradually retreated to the 35th BB.
    The horror of what is happening cannot be expressed in words.
    Those who stood stone for months under such a fire attack, which was not anywhere else in the Second World War, died there.
    They would have shells .... They would have survived.
    But if we take into account the servicemen of the Red Army and Navy, by June 1 there were already less than 80 thousand of them.
    It is terrible to make calculations, but about 30 thousand of them or even more were wounded, rarely slightly wounded .... Under the current conditions, they had practically no chance to survive.
    How many died in the last battles ...
    According to various sources, about 30-35 thousand were captured.
    That is, about 30 thousand prisoners survived before the recount by the Germans.
    But Petrov did not leave the army.
    Oktyabrsky at the last military council tried to leave Petrov as the senior boss.
    But a Member of the Military Council of the Primorsky Army said that since there is no longer a full-fledged army, it’s enough to command the 4th Division of Defense Colonel Novikov to command the evacuation cover troops.
    I don’t remember exactly, but it pops up in my memory that for the sake of this Novikov was awarded the rank of general.
    Maybe this is not entirely true, but there is such a legend.
    Petrov and the headquarters of the Primorsky Army with the commanders of divisions and brigades left in a submarine.

    Many senior officers remained.
    Mikhailov, the military commissar of aviation of the Sora, lost his place in the plane to a woman with a child ... and died, protecting the approaches to the airfield.
    The commander of the marine corps brigade Colonel Gorpishchenko was wounded, but remained with his fighters.
    And they, understanding everything !!!, when the boats come up, they will ferry him on car cameras ...

    At the same time, in the Blue Bay, under the onslaught of a maddened crowd, the pier will collapse ... and on it were the most severely wounded, prepared for evacuation in the first place.
    There will be a platoon of guards shooting under the direction of the appointed naval commander ...

    Those who went through captivity and survived experienced multiple ...
    They had the right to judge any boss. They had a moral right to it.
    As far as I know on the 20th anniversary of the Victory in 1965, at a meeting of defense veterans of Sevastopol, they expressed Oktyabrsky in person ...
    Perhaps this will be the main reason why there are no published memoirs of Admiral Oktyabrsky.

    The Black Sea Fleet, the Seaside Army, the Sevastopol did ten times more than what people could do.
    Eternal memory to the Heroes.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 3 November 2016 08: 19
      +2
      Quote: Sergey S.
      The Black Sea Fleet, the Seaside Army, the Sevastopol did ten times more than what people could do.
      Eternal memory to the Heroes.

      soldier
  24. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 3 November 2016 02: 19
    0
    Quote: 2-0
    Black Sea Fleet hid and sat like a mouse

    Kindly, please name, specifically, which ships of the Black Sea Fleet, in your opinion, should have been sent to Sevastopol for help?
    1. 2-0
      2-0 3 November 2016 11: 23
      0
      I will not be nice, because fed up.
  25. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 3 November 2016 02: 35
    +2
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    The troops and people abandoned on Chersonesos are an eternal shame, which is in every possible way disguised in Soviet literature with colorful terms like "the last heroic defenders of Chersonesos" ... and so on.
    But in fact, abandoned by the fleet and Oktyabrsky in the first place.

    Emotionally dishonest.
    In Soviet times, this tragedy was never masked.
    I was in the know from preschool age, I don’t even remember how many years.

    With my parents, we arrived in the newly opened Sevastopol.
    Lived on the North side in the family of a bus driver.
    On the weekend, the host invited us on a tour.
    Let's go on his bus ....
    I then searched for this place, but found ... That is, I later realized that we were on the 35th BB.
    Adults said very little, only that the sailors did not give up ...
    And then they stood silently over the gap in concrete darkness, and also silently rode back.

    There are always those who always nods: they hid - they didn’t tell, they deceived - they lied, criminals - cowards ....
    But there are those who do not need to tell anything - they retain the pain and pride of the Fatherland in their hearts.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 3 November 2016 13: 46
      +1
      Quote: Sergey S.
      Emotionally dishonest.
      In Soviet times, this tragedy was never masked.


      Speak dishonestly?
      I would say that it’s dishonorable to leave the wounded without any help, but there’s another word for this - CRIMINAL.

      I was still a schoolboy on Sapun Mountain, on the 35th battery, in the catacombs and in several other memorable places of defense. The last defenders of Cape Chersonese - grandiloquently talked about this monstrous tragedy.

      Yes - it’s hard to say that the scale of the tragedy was hiding, it was simply silent about this. No one said that they were abandoned - they just died in the last battle ...
  26. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 3 November 2016 02: 46
    +3
    Quote: Severomor
    Somehow in Leningrad it was different

    In my native Leningrad it was different.
    But not easier, and the tragedy was a degree which can not be compared with anything.

    Unlike Sevastopol, from Kronshdtat and Leningrad, ammunition was not taken to the rear.
    This ammunition was enough for the whole blockade, and even in the autumn of 1941, Leningrad shared ammunition and artillery with Moscow.
    There was another misfortune in Leningrad.
    The winter Life Road in the winter of 1941-1942 could not feed the inhabitants of the city.
    How many people died ...
    The museum of Leningrad had an exact number of 641 people.
    No one ever believed that this was the exact number, but once I saw it, I could not forget it.
    Really died more ...
    But do not water the Communists, which they have deceived here.
  27. Retvizan
    Retvizan 3 November 2016 12: 12
    +1
    Honor and glory to the defenders of Odessa and Sevastopol!
    However, to keep Sevastopol in the taken part of Ukraine (adjacent to the Crimea) and the entire peninsula is a very difficult task.
  28. tiaman.76
    tiaman.76 4 November 2016 00: 31
    0
    By the way, that in Soviet historiography that in Russia these events were practically not covered .. the city after the heroic defense fell and all the glories to the heroes .. and the fact that almost all the command was safely saved, including the party organizer about this is silent .. and that tens of thousands of military and civilians were left to their own devices was not mentioned .. and still in modern historical Russian films they are bashfully silent about those tragic events .. I believe that anyone who does not want to hear about it knows to condemn such a cynical act, namely leaving more than one hundred thousand people to their fate the chance to save someone at least he just spits on the memory of the defenders .. the great defenders of the homeland, the great city of SEVASTOPOL .. silence about those tragic events is a betrayal of our memory .. memory of heroes
  29. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 4 November 2016 00: 58
    0
    Quote: 2-0
    I repeat, don't la-la! No one hunted the "Tashkent", and the "Tashkent" died, again at the wall, during a "planned" raid. "Novorossiysk wake-up call". And if you mean the transition, then remember with what overload the "Tashkent" went and, accordingly, the conditions for maneuvering.

    About "la-la".
    It may seem excessive to you, but ... It's insulting, so to speak of the Holy.
    As for the "Relationship between Tashkent" and German aviation, the most accurate term is "Hunting." Moreover, a group, or even more precisely a crowd for a single target.
    The squadrons of Junkers staged a continuous roundabout while the Tashkent marched along the Crimean coast.
    And that raid, when "Tashkent" was killed in Novorossiysk, was unusual, not planned. the Germans over the Kuban went deep into our rear and appeared from the east - the groundmen slept ...
    The sailors were the first to notice the Nazis ...
    "Tashkent" received two direct hits, the ship sank at the pier ... and the crew members fled to their combat posts ...
    As a result, about 80 crew members of the "Tashkent" were killed.
    Here was such a crew, about which you have something about la-la ...

    Quote: 2-0
    The question is not who and how many were sunk at the crossings. "Yamato" also filled up at the crossing. The question is what kind of walrus, the valiant Black Sea Fleet was in Batumi when he was supposed to kill the Fritzes near Sevastopol.

    To help "Tashkent", "Smart" interrupted repairs ... And who else could be sent to sea in your opinion? "Parisian" ????? And that this is an attack only on sailors? the aviators, too, had to take off on the last flight ... And the infantry and tank crews, too, had to commit collective suicide? And Stalin and Zhukov were supposed to shoot themselves?
    So directly and write that not the Victory in May 1945, but "anti-communist chernukha" the main event of History.
    I apologize for the overlap, but the senselessness of the arguments of the opponents is over the top.

    Quote: 2-0
    Which Luftwaffe are you going to compare? Air groups of Army Groups "Center" and "North" and aviation attached to Manstein, who actually had no tanks. The infantry fought.

    About how Manstein fought well known ...
    He collected almost all the siege artillery of Europe, organized the highest fire density in the history of mankind, made the southern sky glow all nights for more than three weeks, and forgot to adjust the tanks ???
    What you wrote smacks of either ignorance, or anti-Soviet bias, or immoral graphomania.
  30. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 4 November 2016 01: 13
    0
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    I would say that it’s dishonorable to leave the wounded without any help, but there’s another word for this - CRIMINAL.

    The second day I’m trying to get only one thing from my opponents: What specific ships had to be sent to evacuate Sevastopol?
    And in response the same thing ....
    War generally consists only of crimes and exploits. Moreover, what one side calls a feat for the other turns into a crime.
    But the wounded were not abandoned. All hospitals functioned even when they were located around the Chersonesos lighthouse in the open. Doctors and sisters were with the wounded to the last ... Many, until their last breath.
    1. tiaman.76
      tiaman.76 4 November 2016 10: 20
      0
      you would be abandoned and going through captivity, for example, would listen to how you would sing
    2. 2-0
      2-0 5 November 2016 00: 03
      0
      Citizen "Sergei S." - this is for you and for yourself and for "DimerVladimer", I hope "DimerVladimer" will not be offended at me!

  31. nnz226
    nnz226 5 February 2017 13: 40
    0
    Quote: "We did not have time to build the third necessary line - from Balaclava to Kachi." - for this agromadic "thank you" to the atmiral Oktyabrsky, who ordered all forces to be thrown into the construction of the internal border. In June of the 1942 of the year, Sevastopol could still hold on, but as it is correctly said on the "ridges of Sevastopol, the batteries No. 30 and 35 ended with 305-mm shells, for which again" thanks "to Oktyabrsky, who ordered half of the year XENUMX in September (!!!) Black Sea Fleet ammunition to be taken to the Caucasus! The Germans have not yet broken into the Crimea, and the fleet is already in panic taking out the ammunition! Yes, and the evacuation of the command staff “with the permission of the bid” was after the bet was answered on Oktyabrsky’s panic telegram ... By the way, after the war, this admiral, right on the stage of the Sevastopol DOF, received in the face from one of the defenders of Sevastopol abandoned by him, and with the stormy support of the audience!