Own among strangers - 5. Did the "gangster" fight in the USSR?

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Tommy Gan. Probably the most celebrated Hollywood. weaponMade in the USA. Very original submachine gun with a funny fate. Not taken into service properly in any country, however, fought from Central America to Asia.



Apparently, the same gangster planid or karma, as someone is more convenient.

Noted "Tommy-Gan" in our country. And, oddly enough, long before the lend-lease supplies.

The idea to arm the fighters overseas is ascribed to the first chairman of the OGPU, F. E. Dzerzhinsky. It happened in the distant 1924 year, when the Civil War was already over, but in the outskirts of the country, order was still established. Mostly Caucasus, Transcaucasia and Central Asia. And the need for mobile automatic weapons took place.

Why a Thompson submachine gun, and not a light machine gun, is hard to say. Even today it is more than difficult to find reliable data, only the fact that through “friends” in Mexico (and the USSR friends were there, LI Trotsky would confirm) the party purchased Thompson submachine guns (PPT). Or, as they were then called, "submañhine gan". The duddle gun

There is no information about the amount of data either, there is only confirmation that the PTT was in service with the Kremlin guards (for which it was more than suitable) and special units of the OGPU that were engaged in clearing the outskirts of the country from gangs of various kinds. Plus, some have fallen into the border troops, who were also subordinate to the OGPU-NKVD.

Own among strangers - 5. Did the "gangster" fight in the USSR?


Budenovka shows that things happen in the years described.


The photo, of course, is not visible, but there is no doubt that the caps of the fighters are green.

In fact, it can be argued that the Thompson submachine gun was baptized in our country in 1926-1927, in Ajaria, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. Mention of this can be found in the memoirs of L.P. Vasilevsky (“KGB were”, 1978) and R.E. Lastochkin (“Traces on the hot sand”, 1967).


Instructions. A very useful and necessary thing in the army.

Of course, "Tommy Gan" did not become a full-fledged replacement for a light machine gun. He temporarily replaced him. Considering that everything that the Red Army had at that time, this “Maxim”, which was nevertheless heavy, especially for a mobile war, occupied a niche.

And he was soon safely forgotten - before the Great Patriotic War.

Great Patriotic War was the second page in stories PPT on our open spaces.

If one does not pay attention to various sources, then one and the same phrase is found everywhere: “It was supplied by Lend-Lease in insignificant quantities, did not become widespread, since the Soviet industry produced more than 6 million PCA pieces” in one way or another.

Some sources add that the PPT was equipped with equipment coming from the USA: Tanks ("Stuart" and "Sherman") and Boston aircraft.

It is worth noting here that the Thompsons staffed all American equipment. And "Willis", which brought to us a huge amount, and trucks "Dodge" and "Studebaker", and even motorcycles. But there were also just supplies of machine guns and cartridges for them.

If you look at the numbers, the 137 000 "Thompsons" and 306 million. cartridges for them (the figures cited by Yu. Veremeev in his work “Lend-Lease”) seem to be somewhat beyond the scope of manning the equipment.

Is it a lot? If to compare with PPSH, then on one “Tommy” there was 45 PPSH. And if you look and compare the characteristics (which has already been done many times), then there is no dispute, the PCA seemed to be more efficient. And there were fewer problems with it in terms of repair and supply, as many times as more were released.

But if you carefully examine everything that is dumped into our global network, it turns out that "Tommi-gan" still fought, and did not gather dust in warehouses, as some people say.

Proceeding from the principle that “a spoon is the road to dinner,” PPT still came in handy. First of all drivers. Military driver, whatever one may say, but must be armed. Here and gangsters, marauders, and saboteurs, and coming out of the environment of the enemy group, and vice versa, broke through the defense of our troops. Anything could be on the front roads.

Mosinka, the main weapon of our infantry, in conditions of a non-spacious cabin of a truck, is still not the most suitable weapon. And nobody would have given the PPSH to the driver by the first time. Machine on the "front" is more important. But overseas gift, which had special fasteners in the cockpit or on board ("Willys" and "Harley"), but a cartridge pouch with four magazines on the 20 or 30 cartridges each ... It is quite an option. It weighs almost like a rifle, but still pohvvatistey will.

Tankers. If you believe the Hero of the Soviet Union, in those years, the tank commander tank commander DF Loze, the fact that in each Sherman of his battalion there were two Thompsons was perceived optimistically. The Soviet tanker had TT as a standard weapon of that time. Good gun. But having an appendage to two submachine guns and one and a half to two hundred rounds of ammunition for them - here the crew of a wrecked tank significantly increased the chances of either going to the rear or waiting for help.

And getting out of the tank with the Thompson was easier than with the PCA. Although, the farther towards the end of the war, the more the tank crews preferred the PPS. And it is easier at times, and there are no problems with cartridges.

The pilots. Here the situation is a little inverse. Americans generously thrust "Thompsons" into each plane. And the "Douglas" and "Bostons" they, too, were completed. But there was already a slightly different attitude. The bomber could be shot down far behind the front line, and then every extra kilogram (that is, in the case of PPT, seven kilograms) became a burden. And given the possible presence of wounded comrades, it is altogether sad. Therefore, if you read the memories of the pilots, then for them the friend was still a pistol and a handful of cartridges in the jacket pocket.

Infantry. Paradox, but the Thompsons were armed with infantry. At least, this is evidenced by the stills of photo chronicle. And once armed, it is obvious that as a weapon, "Tommi-gan" was still considered.


Our soldiers. American equipment, went along with the tanks. The picture was taken presumably in the Kuban in 1943 year.


Stalingrad, 1943 year.













The biggest help in the matter of whether the war was fought on our fronts, or was lying in warehouses (or, as some argue, was in service with "scaffolds" in the camps), the search engine reconstructors had. Enough to go to any site of this kind of movement and find a section dedicated to "Thompson." And here opens the whole geography of the battles of that war. Where not only did the Thompsons and the spent cartridges be dug.

Murmansk, Leningrad, Pskov, Voronezh regions, Crimea, Kuban. Especially a lot in places where 1941-42 battles were fierce. Tikhvin, Meadows, Rzhev, Korotoyak. And everywhere they find characteristic cartridges and cartridges.



It turns out, "Tommi-gan" fought. So, almost yours.
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239 comments
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  1. +4
    1 November 2016 07: 51
    As a child, we found such cartridges, we thought German ... Thank you ...
  2. +4
    1 November 2016 08: 07
    What he fought is for sure ... And what they didn’t really like - for sure, for weight, inconvenience, short range .... But still he was a weapon ....
  3. +19
    1 November 2016 08: 32
    Yes, okay, even if I didn’t "enter" what the author wanted to say with his article: I wanted to show interesting photos showing our soldiers from different times armed with "Tommy Gun" and concluded that this is "an undeservedly forgotten weapon"? Yes, no one forgot him, the phrase from our historiography that the supply of this weapon was insignificant (compared to the release of our submachine guns) and it was not popular among the troops, just so "offended" by the author, is in fact the truth. About insignificant deliveries - the author himself named the figure and there is nothing to argue about, it's just a "minuscule". Moreover, as the author himself writes, they were equipped with drivers and crews of armored vehicles, that is, fighters who rarely used these weapons on the battlefield, which means that fighters who were in the first line of fire contact with the enemy rarely saw this weapon on the front line. And this weapon was not popular for the following reasons: 1) and the most important thing is the difficult provision of ammunition, if in the same Murmansk where allied convoys were going, this was more or less normal, then in other parts located far from the places where allied goods were processed with it was really bad. The same Drabkin cites the recollections of soldiers and officers who fought on allied armored vehicles and these servicemen say that yes- "tommy-gun" was included in the kit that came with their armored vehicles, but with only two full magazines and that's it! -Shot them, and then do? Agro-industrial complex 45 caliber cartridges in warehouses "in the daytime with fire could not be found. Therefore," Tommy-Guns "on occasion were simply thrown away or exchanged for something, and their place was taken at first by captured MP-38-40, and by more convenient PPS. the reason is the strong dispersion of bullets when firing from the "tommy-gun" if from the PPSh it was even possible to conduct trench fire at a distance of up to 200 meters, then from the "tommy" it was simply unrealistic to hit something farther than 50 meters. and the third reason is that it was cumbersome and rather heavy ... And about the photographs ... There are many famous photographs in which our soldiers are depicted with different "exotic" types of weapons - the most famous ones: they march from November 41 on Red Square with hand -machine guns "Lewis" and "Shosha" on the shoulder, or raise fighters with a "Mauser" in their hands, or sailors firing from the "Browning" machine gun during the First World War, or scouts in winter camouflage coats with automatic "Fedorov", etc. All used from which it was possible to kill enemies, everything went into business when it was needed ...
    1. +7
      1 November 2016 10: 34
      We must generally remember the war weapons, so the topic of the article is normal. And the country then was not in the position to refuse help - that’s what they fought for. Tommy-gun proved to be quite good at fighting in trenches and storming buildings - .45 still has a good stopping effect. And for the long-range battle, you're right, the PPSh is many times better.
      1. +1
        1 November 2016 11: 19
        I doubt the Tommy Ghans were given to simple infantry. Because there weren’t 45 rounds of ammunition. And in the infantry battle they did not spare cartridges, PP is necessary for that in order to water the enemy with fire, not allowing him to pop out. Therefore, I believe that users of foreign technology owned the Tommy Ghans, to whom the PPT were bundled. And tankers, drivers and crew members of other armored vehicles very rarely engaged in firefights with the enemy. If you are sitting in a tank, scout, anti-aircraft self-propelled guns, it is more reasonable and effective to use the main armament of your armored unit than to protrude from the hatch and shoot from the PP.
        1. +1
          1 November 2016 14: 01
          It was rather given to assault engineer-engineer units. The same scouts - sometimes they captured the front end.
        2. 0
          26 November 2016 01: 16
          During excavations in the Tver region, it was our infantrymen who died with full-fledged Tommy Guns who were found. And this is a real PULMET gun. It is huge (with a disk magazine for 100 rounds).
      2. +2
        1 November 2016 12: 02
        (c) We need to remember about the war weapons at all, so the topic of the article is normal (c) Who needs it - enthusiastic maniacs, specialist gunsmiths? For mass memory, you need to understand that people are fighting, not weapons. And remember the Heroes of the Stand, and not about some exotic foreign weapons. And about the rear workers who supplied our army with their weapons. Digging into the handouts of those who provoked the war is harmful to a fragile mind ...
        1. +10
          1 November 2016 14: 07
          Maybe we’ll erase everything from history, what can we think of, what will we erase, rename foreigners, what we have served and worked for? Whatever story is - you need to remember it.
          PS Do not like to read about weapons - do not read, no one forces you.
          1. 0
            1 November 2016 19: 15
            (c) Maybe we’ll erase everything from history, what can we think of, what will we erase, rename foreigners, what did we serve and work with? Whatever story is - you need to remember it (s)
            The slogan is good, but why juggle it? It was about the exaggeration of insignificant facts and the immature psychology of the majority. Judging by your reaction, you do not understand, and therefore about your membership in the majority.
            1. +6
              2 November 2016 20: 32
              Quote: ava09
              The slogan is good, but why juggle it? It was about the exaggeration of insignificant facts and the immature psychology of most

              Any mention of foreign technology, for some reason, is perceived by some as "exaggeration" and praise. Can he write only about domestic samples and repeat endless mantras about what is our very thing, and the rest is just sheise? smile
      3. +1
        1 November 2016 15: 48
        Quote: Forest
        And for the long-range battle, you're right, the PPSh is many times better.

        There is nothing in the PCA that would make him better than Tommy-gan. Well, that’s nothing at all. Even the MP40, not the best PP, was better than the PCA.
        The reason for this is completely unsuitable for the army cartridge TT. From him and TT was ridiculous and miserable, at the same time.
        1. +10
          1 November 2016 20: 48
          No, I understand, of course, that cents are paid to ukrobots, and holidays at school have begun. But it’s not necessary to fawn. Curators will cut payments.
          Tommy Gun better PPSh ... Hand-face :)))))).
          1. +1
            1 November 2016 22: 29
            Learn. You need.
            And change the login. It is also necessary. And in general, it should be a shame.
            1. +2
              1 November 2016 22: 59
              At least look at the PShSh device in the video, I advise you to watch the channel of the Eternal Hunt. And then compare with the device of Tommy Gan. And about the nonsense that the PPSh firing range is 35 meters, please do not repeat, otherwise it has already fallen from the chair from laughter, I don’t want to fall anymore. Does the range of the direct shot tell you something? PPSh has an initial bullet speed of 490 m / s, and Tommy Gan has 280 m / s. Who will have a longer direct shot range? Hint: for AKM with an initial bullet speed of 715 m / s, the range of a direct shot at the chest figure is 350 m, for AK-74 with an initial speed of the bullet of 910 m / s the range of a direct shot at the same chest figure is 440 m
              1. +1
                1 November 2016 23: 21
                Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                And about the nonsense that the PPSh firing range is 35 meters, please do not repeat

                You didn’t even understand what was going on. Amazing!
                Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                otherwise it has already fallen from a chair with laughter, I don’t feel like falling anymore.

                I'm sorry that after the fall you still have the opportunity to write nonsense.
                Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                Does the range of the direct shot tell you something? PPSh has an initial bullet speed of 490 m / s, and Tommy Gan has 280 m / s. Who will have a longer direct shot range? Hint: for AKM with an initial bullet speed of 715 m / s, the range of a direct shot at the chest figure is 350 m, for AK-74 with an initial speed of the bullet of 910 m / s the range of a direct shot at the same chest figure is 440 m

                No, well, you in your ignorance are just something with something.
                You still compare the weight of the butt. And on this basis, determine the best weapon.
                1. +6
                  1 November 2016 23: 23
                  Hmm, no more words. It is useless to communicate with you.
                  1. +2
                    7 November 2016 20: 49
                    Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                    It is useless to communicate with you.

                    You did not appreciate such a unique clown! A time to know * imitating the tone of this Great Guru *that healthy laughs soooooooooo good laughing
        2. +2
          2 November 2016 20: 45
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Even the MP40, not the best PP, was better than the PCA.

          Can you give more details? What exactly was better? Cheaper, faster, more reliable? And why is the TT cartridge bad? The fact that the stopping effect is weak? So for the police, the stopping effect is important. request
          1. 0
            2 November 2016 22: 16
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Can you give more details? What exactly was better?

            It’s better to destroy the enemy.
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            And why is the TT cartridge bad? The fact that the stopping effect is weak? So this is a stopping effect for the police.

            Stopping, how do you understand it? He is coming, but he needs to be stopped?
            This is actually a figurative expression. Although not devoid of practical meaning.
            And the TT cartridge for the army was bad for everyone. Read here next, I already wrote about this in detail. Too lazy to repeat.
            From a bad cartridge, poor performance characteristics were also possessed by weapons on it.
            1. +5
              3 November 2016 07: 43
              Quote: rjxtufh
              It’s better to destroy the enemy.

              Why is it better? What is this statement based on? So I rummaged through the sites, read articles on the cartridge 7,62 TT, 7.62? 25 mm Tokarev, .30 Tokarev., .30 Mauser, 7,63 mm Mauser. What other than a weak stopping effect makes it worse than 45 ACP? The joules are almost the same, the initial speed is almost 2 times higher. Yes, the bullet "sews", but when using automatic weapons, this is not the drawback that you need to focus on when choosing the main weapon for the army. Moreover, its armor penetration is 3 times higher. And this is the same argument in favor of the TT cartridge.
              And yet - to argue that PPSh was worse than Tom Gan and M-38 \ 40 only because of the cartridge stupid, because PCA was structurally much better and more reliable than the American and German PP. And last but not least, it was much cheaper (like a cartridge). So having added the minuses and pluses of cartridges and PP (TTX, reliability, price), at the output we get at least a solid four for PPSh. And for the PPT and M-38 \ 40 just a trickle. request
              If the assessment does not agree with me - let's argue with numbers, not emotions. hi
              1. 0
                3 November 2016 10: 00
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Why is it better? What is this statement based on?

                Based on the fact that the PPSh bullet GUARANTEED hit the enemy's central nervous system at a distance of ~ 35 m. And the MP40 bullet at a distance of ~ 60 m. And the wartime Thompson bullet at a distance of ~ 280 m.
                You can, of course, talk about penetration. And God knows what. But army weapons were created and are being created for one purpose only, the destruction of the enemy. And the better it destroys it, the better.
                And further. Patron Chuck, here he is. Everywhere to this day. Including in the army of the Russian Federation. Yes, this is not a pre-war cartridge of Steam, it is a post-war reinforced cartridge of Steam. But nonetheless.
                Where is the TT cartridge? Where is he? Well, here it is.
                As for the .45 ACP cartridge, at first it, like the Steam cartridge, evolved to .45 ACP + P. But not for all weapons, but only for automatic. Those. cartridges have become specialized. Then, after the appearance of the weapon on the M193 cartridge (a new generation weapon), the .45 ACP + P cartridge was dismissed. The same thing happened with the weapons on the cartridge .45 ACP. The place of this weapon was taken by the weapon on the post-war (reinforced) cartridge of Steam. There is only one reason, the bronics.
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                And yet - to argue that PPSh was worse than Tom Gan and M-38 \ 40 just because of the cartridge is stupid, because constructively

                Structurally, it can be perfect. Even more ideal than ideal. True perfection. But if it does not fulfill its main function, i.e. at a distance of 100 m (aka PP, and this is a range for PP) with a quality hit it is GUARANTEED that does not destroy the enemy, then the price is worthless. And further conversations about its perfection, they are superfluous. Otherwise, we will come to an agreement that it is cheaper, more advanced and more reliable than weapons than there are no slingshots and cannot be.
                This applies to any hunting (and army, this is a type of hunting) weapon, not only PPSh.
                But sporting weapons are easier. Because he does not have terminal ballistics at all. Here it’s just right to recall everything, and the initial velocity of the bullet, and the slope of the trajectory, etc. etc. Only now they don’t fight with sports weapons. Normal countries, at least.
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                So adding up the pros and cons of cartridges

                Adding minuses and pluses, we get huge losses of the Red Army. And largely due to low-quality weapons. Anyone, not just a rifle.
                Therefore, conclusions must be made in advance, and not wait when the fried rooster pecks in the ass a second time.
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                If the assessment does not agree with me - let's argue in numbers

                I gave you the main figures above. The rest of the numbers are empty. Minor (in comparison with the main) factors of the second and third category.
                1. +3
                  5 November 2016 18: 57
                  With an aiming range of PPSh - 500 m (in the early version), the actual range of fire in bursts is about 200 m - an indicator that significantly exceeds the average level of weapons of this class. In addition, thanks to the use of a cartridge of 7,62 × 25 mm TT, in contrast to 9 × 19 mm Parabellum or .45 ACP (used in foreign PRs), as well as a relatively long barrel, a significantly higher muzzle velocity of the bullet was achieved (500 m / s versus 380 m / s for the MP-40 and 280-290 m / s for the Thompson submachine gun), which provided the best trajectory persistence, which allowed for a single fire to confidently hit the target at distances up to 200-250 m, as well as to fire for a greater - up to 300 meters and more - distance.
                  1. 0
                    5 November 2016 21: 10
                    Quote: Shishiga
                    With the aiming range PPSh - 500 m (in the early version)

                    Physiology of the eye interferes with aiming farther than 400 m on an open sight.
                    Quote: Shishiga
                    the actual range of fire in bursts is about 200 m,

                    Here about this nonsense generally forget. This is nonsense.
                    DEP PPSh was approximately 35 m. The rest is nonsense. Feeder for dummies.
                    Quote: Shishiga
                    significantly greater muzzle velocity was achieved

                    What is this strange "advantage"?
                    Quote: Shishiga
                    best trajectory flatness

                    Ugh you. Again sovesky nonsense "for flatness."
                    Quote: Shishiga
                    confidently hit the target

                    It is necessary to hit the target and conveniently at the shooting range. Sporting weapons.
                    Hunting weapons (and the army is a type of hunting) must not destroy the target, but to DESTROY. But at a distance of more than 35 m, it was difficult to DESTROY the target of the PCA.
                    The same applies to MP40, only there the border ran for 60 m.
                    1. +1
                      9 November 2016 20: 27
                      "Eye physiology interferes with aiming further than 400 m with an open scope." (from)
                      Are you serious, I have vague suspicions, but in the army, did you manage to serve your dearest ?? They held AKM or AK-74 in their hands, then they went to the shooting range. ??? I suppose not, and you were not close to all of the above. And all your speculations from books.
                      Learn - Useful http://www.compancommand.com/battle_train/men/sho
                      oting / Op11.pdf
                      1. 0
                        9 November 2016 22: 34
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        Are you serious

                        Perfectly.
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        I have vague suspicions, but in the army did you manage to serve your dearest ??

                        Managed. And not one year.
                        What does this have to do with learning to understand weapons?
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        They held AKM or AK-74 in their hands, then they went to the shooting range.

                        Held and went.
                        What does this have to do with learning to understand weapons?
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        I suppose not, and you were not close to all of the above.

                        On Nostradamus you do not pull.
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        And all your speculations from books.

                        All reasoning, they are generally all from books. And not from military service and shooting from Kalash.
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        Learn - come in handy

                        I won’t come in handy.
                    2. +2
                      9 November 2016 20: 55
                      What about such concepts as ballistics, internal ballistics, bullet trajectory, direct shot range, effective firing range, effective fire range - or is it all for you, as you wrote there? in "Ugh, you. Again, sovesky nonsense" for flatness. "

                      Although what can be expected from a person issuing such pearls "But at a distance of more than 35 m, it was difficult to DESTROY the target of the PPSh.
                      The same applies to the MP40, only there the border ran at 60 m. "
                      1. 0
                        9 November 2016 22: 45
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        and DEP is your everything, and all knowledge of weapons.

                        DEP, this is one of the fundamental characteristics of small arms. Not the only one. But one of the very, very few basic ones.
                        In TTX you will not find it. It is not for users, it is for designers. Those. for those who make weapons rather than use them.
                        And persistence is also an interesting characteristic. But not the main one.
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        from a person issuing such pearls "But at a distance of more than 35 m, it was difficult to DESTROY the target of the PPSh

                        Quite rightly argued. Up to a range of 35 m and closer, a PPSh bullet hit a central nervous system of the enemy with a good hit. What entailed death on the spot. Those. 100% success was achieved. Further than this distance, the central nervous system was no longer affected. And it required a hit in the LHW. Those. it was already roulette. High-quality army (and hunting) weapons are not done that way.
                        And further on MP40 the same.
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        the only thing left is to convince the SS of this, otherwise they poor fools didn’t know about it and grabbed at the PCA as unreasonable

                        What they were given, so they fought. Leave cheap tricks for students.
                      2. 0
                        10 November 2016 00: 23
                        Quote: Shishiga
                        left for small convince the SS

                        If the photo is not staged, then behind his back is PPSh-Luger, and not PPSh.
                        PCA German units were not armed. Regularly, at least.
                        PPSh-Luger, but without an adapter for the MP40 horn. It was removable.
                    3. +1
                      19 November 2016 18: 25
                      "Eye physiology interferes with aiming further than 400 m on an open sight" (c) - and you yourself read your tabular data on Thompson well, they draw the last figure of about 450 meters there ???. Explain how your chatter about the physiology of the eye and the inability to aim with the aiming range of Thompson so advertised by you is connected. ???
                2. 0
                  April 6 2017 18: 07
                  But if it does not fulfill its main function, i.e. at a distance of 100 m (aka PP, and this is a range for PP) with a quality hit it is GUARANTEED that does not destroy the enemy, then the price is worthless.-The main task of any weapon is not to destroy the enemy’s aircraft, but to inflict the maximum possible harm on it. The corpse was left in the funnel / hole and went ahead to attack, and the wounded must be carried out (orderlies) / taken out (cars, eschelons, aircraft)
                  I could carry goods to the front and not back) / treat / feed / allowance for a lost leg / arm pay, etc. And all this is costly: the Americans believed in Vietnam - that 1 wounded manages the US treasury approximately as holding 4 soldiers with something.
                  So maximum harm and only maximum harm ....
            2. +3
              7 November 2016 19: 08
              Bad and everything ... Worse, because worse .... Explanations at 5+. D.B.
              1. 0
                7 November 2016 21: 10
                Quote: zritel
                Explanations at 5+. D.B.

                It’s good that you decided not to sign in with your login, but with your real name.
        3. +4
          7 November 2016 20: 41
          Quote: rjxtufh
          There is nothing in the PCA that would make him better than Tommy-gan.

          Are you from personal combat experience broadcasting to us? lol
          And you can only back it up with your Personal Huge Authority, as always? laughing
          When you are in the arena, it is always a celebration for those who appreciate healthy laughter over an unhealthy fool! lol

          Quote: rjxtufh
          The reason for this is completely unsuitable for the army cartridge TT.

          Yes, yes, yes, tell us once again for an encore that the gun-carbines of Borchard and Mauser were created exclusively for hunting gophers! And then after all there may be people who have not heard this brand of your hochmochka!

          And that there really never was a carbine pistol - because for them it was necessary to first create a carbine cartridge - also tell for the same reasons! lol

          And when I retell your opuses to my friends, they don’t believe that such imbeciles really exist in our world belay No. lol
          1. 0
            7 November 2016 21: 12
            I’ll look at the arena, all the same. Now I'm sure you are not O. Popov. You are someone else, but one of them.
            1. +3
              9 November 2016 22: 43
              Quote: rjxtufh
              I’ll look at the arena, all the same.

              Yes! Well, who, besides you, can amuse the whole forum IN the best crap laughing
          2. +3
            9 November 2016 22: 13
            ++ 100500 dude full imbecile
        4. +1
          April 6 2017 17: 53
          TT cartridge. From him and TT was ridiculous and miserable, at the same time.-Therefore, for some reason, for the time being, for certification, bulletproof vests by TTshnik are being shot, he’s funny and pathetic ....
          fool fool fool fool fool
      4. +2
        2 November 2016 17: 05
        Lesnoy, I had a relative: Yurchenko A.P. defended the Marukh pass, fought on the Blue Line. He said that American "Thomson machines" were in the second echelon: drivers, sleds, etc. The soldiers did not like the "American": heavy, bullet penetration was weak, there were few cartridges and therefore they preferred Mosin rifles. Yes, when there is no better thing, then they used it.
        1. +1
          2 November 2016 18: 08
          Quote: Monarchist
          and therefore preferred mosin rifles

          How can you compare the three-line and submashinegan? It's the same as comparing warm with soft.
    2. +1
      1 November 2016 15: 46
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      The second reason is the strong dispersion of bullets when firing from the "Tommy-gun" if from the PPSh it was still at least possible to conduct trench fire at a distance of up to 200 meters, then from the "Tommy" it was simply unrealistic to hit something further than 50 meters.

      What nonsense. There are Soviet instructions to the Tommy Ghans. And there are scatter tables.
      It was an excellent weapon. Up to 200 m they hollowed out on a constant sight. We could have continued, but there it was already necessary to "play" entirely.
      After WW2, Tommy Ghans were transferred to a reinforced cartridge. And in the end they replaced it with M16A1. In which the main (and only) drawback of the Tommy Gans was eliminated, the difficulty of aiming fire further than 200 m.
      Well, and then, impressed by the enchanting success of the M16A1, the Americans made the M16A2. Which replaced both M16A1 and M14. Also, the lateral branch of M16A1 was AK-74. Because it is also a product of the success of the M16A1.
      1. Alf
        +8
        1 November 2016 19: 42
        Quote: rjxtufh
        Also, the lateral branch of M16A1 was AK-74.

        Another nonsense pulled. Clearly, carbine zeus has glanced.
      2. +3
        1 November 2016 22: 42
        Quote: rjxtufh
        . There are Soviet instructions to the Tommy Ghans.

        I will upset you - there are no Soviet wink There is an instruction in the RUSSIAN language, but it was compiled and printed in the USA in 1942, or rather translated into Russian from the American instruction, moreover, it was translated even by a domestic engineer but far from a rifleman - from this clumsy terms not characteristic of domestic manuals - by the way, two pages the author of the article from this instruction cited - only by the 20s they have no relation whatsoever.
        Quote: rjxtufh
        After 2MV, Tommy Ghans were transferred to a reinforced cartridge

        Again, some nonsense of which again this miracle has returned? The reinforced cartridge was in the Tommy M1923 - the .45 cartridge Thompson was based on an extended AKP sleeve with an increased attachment, but the M1923 was not popular just because of this cartridge and again returned to .1927 AKP in 45
        1. +1
          1 November 2016 23: 15
          Quote: gross kaput
          only now by the 20s they have no relation whatsoever.

          And where does the 20s come from?
          Quote: gross kaput
          Again, some nonsense of which again this miracle has returned?

          Are you about yourself? Yes, your presence is not entirely appropriate.
          Quote: gross kaput
          The reinforced cartridge was in the Tommy M1923 - the .45 cartridge Thompson was based on an extended AKP sleeve with an increased attachment, but the M1923 was not popular just because of this cartridge and again returned to .1927 AKP in 45

          As verbose as you, I usually recommend studying the post-war Thompson on a .45 ACP + R cartridge.
          I understand that this is not written on Wikipedia, so you are not in the know. But these are your problems.
          1. +4
            5 November 2016 01: 45
            Quote: rjxtufh
            As verbose as you, I usually recommend studying the post-war Thompson on a .45 ACP + P cartridge

            Freak come back to our reality - mass production of tommics ended in 44, the last and only order for the production of tommics after 44 was in 1949 - as many as a solid 200 pieces for Egypt.
            in small volumes, various models are still being produced - only here are replicas of M1921, 1927, 1928 and 1928A1 produced for lovers of historical shooting. Especially for lovers of an alternative story, I tell you - each Tommik replica has a very interesting memo in the interior of the package - use exclusively cartridges with a brass sleeve, a bullet of 230 grains .45 ball ammunition.
            Those. translate for visionaries - even in modern commercial replicas it is FORBIDDEN to use cartridges + P laughing
            In general, you already got your alternative talent - how you erupted wretched fantasies two years ago, so you carry the same nonsense, come up with something new chtol.
            1. 0
              5 November 2016 03: 06
              Hello namesake!
              Quote: gross kaput
              In general, you already got your alternative talent - how you erupted wretched fantasies two years ago, so you carry the same nonsense, come up with something new chtol.

              In the hole! Come on, you and I have become hunters. How do you like the news?
              Quote: rjxtufh
              (and army, this is a kind of hunting)
              1. 0
                8 November 2016 14: 46
                Quote: Timeout
                Come on, you and I have become hunters. How do you like the news?

                Are you ill?
            2. 0
              8 November 2016 09: 27
              Quote: gross kaput
              Freak

              Why are you writing so strangely? Signature first, and then text?
              Quote: gross kaput
              the last and only after 44 order for the production of tommics was in 1949 - as many as a solid 200 pieces for Egypt.

              No, in 45g. For the Martians.
              Stop making up "facts". After the war, a new Tommy-gun was made on the .45 ACP + P cartridge. And it was released until the 60s, when the Tommy-Ghana army was replaced by the M16A1.
              Quote: gross kaput
              even in modern commercial replicas it is FORBIDDEN to use cartridges + P

              Crank, an army rather than a commercial model was made under this cartridge.
              Damn, to whom I explain. After all, he does not know and does not understand.
              1. +2
                10 December 2016 16: 11
                Did you hear about M-3? her? sho in your parallel universe did not construct it? here byad laughing I bring to your attention that in our universe Tommy gun was replaced specifically with the M-3 butterdish, respectively, in 1944 the production of tommics was stopped because the military refused orders for them in favor of orders for the M-3, and it somehow happened before the current was long it was not possible to work out the welding of the body halves, as soon as the technology worked out so Tomiki ordered and stopped.
      3. +6
        1 November 2016 23: 06
        Quote: rjxtufh
        After WW2, Tommy Ghans were transferred to a reinforced cartridge. And in the end they replaced it with M16A1.

        Actually, the M16 came to replace the M14, after the experience of fighting in Vietnam. And judging by your logic, where the AK-74 is a lateral branch of the M16, then the M16 rifle itself is a side branch of the AKM :)))).
        1. +1
          1 November 2016 23: 17
          Read my comment again at 15:46. And memorize him. And do not argue anymore with adult uncles.
          And do not confuse the AKM with the M16 and AK-74. These are quite different weapons.
          1. +5
            1 November 2016 23: 22
            People mixed up in a heap, horses ... Well, how is it to discuss with such enchanting things? Here only lobotomy will save. By the way, are you not from Ukraine? And then I’m watching Sharia’s video, they also come across the same instances.
      4. +3
        2 November 2016 17: 24
        You will listen and think that you personally fought (on which front?) And know well the advantages and disadvantages: PPSh, Thomson, MP40 (among other things, good PP).
        And your run over to the TT is complete nonsense. Veterans respected TT. And in Afghanistan he liked him more than PM
        1. +1
          2 November 2016 18: 00
          Quote: Monarchist
          You personally fought (on which front?) And you know well the advantages and disadvantages: PPSh, Thomson, MP40

          To do this, it is not necessary to fight. And to shoot from them is also not necessary.
          Quote: Monarchist
          And your run over to the TT is complete nonsense.

          I didn’t run into anyone. And did not even plan.
          Quote: Monarchist
          Veterans respected TT.

          Are they specialist gunsmiths? Then what did they do in the trenches? The armory's place is not there.
          Quote: Monarchist
          And in Afghanistan he liked him more than PM

          And there, who could evaluate and compare them?
          By the way, both are completely unsuitable for the army. PM still suits the police, because this is a police gun. TT, it’s not at all clear what is good for it.
          1. +3
            2 November 2016 20: 50
            Quote: rjxtufh
            And to shoot from them is also not necessary.

            Those. propose to judge weapons only by theory and performance characteristics? belay
            1. 0
              2 November 2016 22: 18
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              .e. propose to judge weapons only by theory and performance characteristics?

              You misunderstood what I wrote.
              Too hypertrophied.
            2. +3
              7 November 2016 20: 57
              If this nerd even knew the theory, except for his deeply personal nonsense ... crying
              1. 0
                7 November 2016 21: 14
                Quote: murriou
                If this nerd even knew the theory

                And how long have you been in a third person about yourself? What does your doctor say about this?
                1. +1
                  8 November 2016 00: 19
                  Again you are trying to judge all by yourself laughing

                  As for the attending physicians, I am not familiar with yours yet, but what is being said about you on this forum, and very unanimously, it’s easy to notice, if you don’t squint like you lol
                  1. 0
                    8 November 2016 09: 30
                    Quote: murriou
                    but what they say about you on this forum, and very unanimously

                    Who is this? Are you and a couple more inadequate?
                    So it’s more correct to focus on healthy people.
          2. +2
            7 November 2016 16: 27
            Lovely man, have you ever seen a bullet from a TT, from a TT and not a PCA hits a person?
            The effect is preservative, and not from 30 meters, but a little more.
            A piece of lead was flattened on the rib, so that people couldn’t shoot back in any way, it hurt him right where to go.
            Such things you our theorist.
            1. 0
              7 November 2016 21: 18
              Quote: saigon
              from TT and not PPSh gets into a person?
              The effect is preservative, and not from 30 meters, but a little more.
              A piece of lead was flattened on the rib, so that people couldn’t shoot back in any way, it hurt him right where to go.

              Nice person. In the case you described, if a bullet from a normal army pistol (not even 0.45) hit a person, the person would not be hurt. Never again.
              But the fact that he is hurt, just says that this is not an army weapon. So, indulge, shoot on pieces of paper with black circles.
              Quote: saigon
              what are you theorist you our

              Such matters, you are our practitioner.
              1. 0
                8 November 2016 16: 49
                That's why I really do not believe in vomit about TTX and other garbage. And as with holes, a person remains combat-ready and this is true.
                So book blah blah is bullshit.
                Non-army casuistry is not army, it is more important in life than efficiency.
                1. 0
                  9 November 2016 01: 24
                  Quote: saigon
                  That's why I really do not believe in vomit about TTX and other

                  And you don’t have to believe in anything. And you don’t need to think about this topic.
                  There are special people, weapons designers. Here they are on this subject and think. For a dear money.
                  True, all with a different effect. Those who are more advanced think with great results. And those that are "genius" are usually worse. And also, as a rule, those that are "legendary" are worse.
      5. +2
        5 November 2016 19: 00
        "Also the side branch of the M16A1 was the AK-74. Because this is also a product of the M16A1's success." - it's enchanting.
        1. 0
          5 November 2016 21: 11
          Quote: Shishiga
          "Also the side branch of the M16A1 was the AK-74. Because this is also a product of the M16A1's success." - it's enchanting.

          It's true. Learn the history of weapons and it will open to you.
          1. 0
            9 November 2016 21: 11
            Well, what will you justify this your fantasy ???
            1. 0
              9 November 2016 22: 46
              Quote: Shishiga
              Well, what will you justify this your fantasy ???

              It is written there, learn the history of weapons.
              If you don’t even know this, then what to talk about with you? This is basic knowledge.
          2. 0
            19 November 2016 18: 31
            the further I read you, the more I begin to doubt, there’s not even truthfulness, just honesty.
      6. +2
        5 November 2016 19: 09
        [rjxtufh. Also, the lateral branch of M16A1 was AK-74. Because This is also a product of the success of the M16A1. [/ Quote]
        All ..... patstalom ...
        IN ??? with such "CONNECTORS"! Where is going ?????
        1. The comment was deleted.
      7. +1
        5 November 2016 19: 21
        what 200 m on a permanent sight ??
        “In addition to the M1928A1, simplified versions of this model were adopted in the United States - these are the M1 and M1A1 submachine guns. The Thompson M1 submachine gun was created to reduce the cost of production and increase its pace in wartime. Serial production of the M1 was established in 1943. The Thompson M1 submachine gun received a simple automatic system with a free breech, a simple non-adjustable rear sight instead of an adjustable one, a wooden rifle-type forend, a loading handle on the right side of the receiver, a barrel without a muzzle brake-compensator and cooling fins. To simplify production, some parts of steel produced by forging with further processing on metal-cutting machines.
        The M1 submachine gun was powered by cartridges only from box magazines with a capacity of 20 or 30 rounds. The magazine receiver allowed only box magazines to be mounted, since drum magazines were considered unnecessarily heavy, bulky and inconvenient to use. Thompson M1 and M1A1 submachine guns were very popular among both infantrymen and rangers, marines, paratroopers and scouts. With the simplification of the design and some increase in the manufacturability of production, the Thompsons managed to bring the total number of manufactured copies to 90000 pieces per month. The Thompson M1A1 submachine gun, which began production in 1943, received a firing pin fixed in the shutter mirror and simple sights with an unadjustable diopter, designed for firing up to 100 yards (91,4 meters). "(C)
        http://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/smg/us/tomm
        y-gun

        100 meters on an unregulated sight and does not sniff.
        1. 0
          5 November 2016 21: 41
          Quote: Shishiga
          100 meters on an unregulated sight and does not sniff.

          Write 1 (one) m. For greater credibility.
          True, the firing tables for some reason were marked out at 500 yards. But this is, of course, just like that.
          1. 0
            9 November 2016 21: 12
            studio shooting tables
            1. 0
              9 November 2016 22: 58
              So arrange?
              1. +1
                19 November 2016 18: 12
                it will suit you completely, amazing accuracy at your vaunted karamultuk - at a distance of 322 meters a deviation of 2 meters is from your table.
                Wonderful p / p and lethal force is wonderful and all of it is so brutal and American correct, here accuracy - no.
                And what will you continue to fence ???? Make laugh again with your trump letters ????
    3. 0
      7 November 2016 16: 12
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      The second reason is the strong dispersion of bullets when firing from the "Tommy-gun" if from the PPSh it was still at least possible to conduct trench fire at a distance of up to 200 meters, then from the "Tommy" it was simply unrealistic to hit something further than 50 meters. Well, the third reason is that it was cumbersome and rather heavy ...


      Did you shoot Tommy yourself? There was no more accurate and comfortable shooting experience among the PPs of that time. Very stable and comfortable to hold. The highest quality workmanship. Powerful cartridge with strong stopping power. Removable butt. Didn't like the weight.
  4. +9
    1 November 2016 08: 38
    In the winter photo under the photo of captain K.N. Calaida is not Thompson but the Reising M50.
    1. +5
      1 November 2016 14: 25
      I wanted to write about Raising myself. drinks He was in service with the U.S. Navy, the Navy and the Coast Guard. The weapon was very complex, sensitive, not popular.
      Next - Wikipedia:
      "- There is even a known case when an entire battalion of the Marine Corps, on the orders of Lieutenant Colonel Merritt A. Edson, drowned its" Raising "in the river in order to obtain a weapon more suitable for warfare
      - As a result, at the end of 1943, the “Razings” were withdrawn from the troops and transferred to the coast guard units and to the command of the ships, as well as the police, the State Defense Forces and OSS. Part of this, which proved unsuitable for military operations, was sent to the Allies on Lend-Lease, including in the USSR
      - details of various weapons were not interchangeable due to individual fit during manufacture, which became a big problem during operation and repair in the army. The Soviet operating instructions, for example, categorically forbade mixing up parts of one submachine gun with parts of another during disassembly. "
      That is, they gave us in the person of PP Racing allies what they themselves are worthless. soldier
      1. 0
        1 November 2016 15: 55
        Quote: Mikado
        That is, they gave us in the person of PP Racing allies what they themselves are worthless

        We would be so "worthless" in the series.
        Do not stir up water, and do not spread rumors. The whole battalion, by order, drowned weapons in the river!
        In the USSR, a battalion commander and a political officer would be shot there. In the US, the battalion commander was sent to prison, most likely.
        1. +2
          1 November 2016 16: 02
          I do not torment. Have you read the comment carefully to respond so emotionally?
          just quoted wikipedia.
          https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reising_M50_/_M55
          in this article the item "use and evaluation", 3rd paragraph from the bottom. It refers to some American article, however, now I tried to go, the link is not available.
          with respect hi
          PS I think that without this weapon we had something to put in a series, and no worse.
          1. +1
            1 November 2016 20: 13
            Quote: Mikado
            just quoted wikipedia.

            What for?
            Quote: Mikado
            I think that without this weapon we had something to put in a series, and no worse.

            You are mistaken. And in a radical way.
            1. +3
              2 November 2016 11: 01
              You are mistaken. And in a radical way.

              with all due respect, you want to say that instead of PPSh and PPS, we should have been releasing "Raising"? During the war? At the same time, learn how to produce 45-caliber cartridges?
              And, undoubtedly, PP "Raising" was better than domestic weapons? Yours faithfully, hi
              1. +1
                2 November 2016 11: 57
                Quote: Mikado
                Do you want to say that instead of PPSh and PPS, we should have been releasing "Raising"?

                It's not about Racing, it's about the cartridge. It was the cartridge at Reising (and Thompson) that was extremely infamous. And for army purposes, before the mass appearance of the bronics, it was almost perfect (for pistols and submachine guns - this is a more accurate name for Thompson and Rising than PP). No wonder it was massively used until the mid-60s.
                A TT cartridge even in the USSR was fired in the 50s. And in other, more advanced countries, they did not even take into service as the main army.
                But the design features of different weapons I did not touch at all. Only ballistics, external and terminal (no one ever considers it; moreover, many do not know anything about it). And that’s it.
                1. +3
                  2 November 2016 12: 15
                  but .. the .45 caliber is "fashionable" only in the USA. And it is precisely for him, roughly speaking, that the industry is sharpened. Our industry was originally tailored for a different cartridge, since the 20s. That is, a question from the category of the subjunctive mood, "what would happen if the TT were designed for a different cartridge," but here we have to dig even deeper, until the time the "Mauser" arrived in tsarist Russia.
                  Again, if the cartridge is wonderful (I don’t presume to judge, however, the "Gris Gun" was in service with the Philippine Navy and Marine Corps until the early 2000s, at least), but the weapon is complex for mass arming troops - then the choice of weapon is still rational under the worst cartridge, but adapted to the conditions of use. with respect, hi
                  1. +1
                    2 November 2016 19: 00
                    Quote: Mikado
                    Our industry was originally sharpened under another cartridge, since the 20s.

                    The machine doesn’t care what diameter drill is inserted into it.
                    Quote: Mikado
                    then it’s still rational to choose a weapon under the worst cartridge, but adapted to the conditions of use

                    This is what you just described the Germans and their patron Para.
                    This does not apply to the USSR, because there were no pistols for the army at all. And their production was created from scratch. Nothing prevented me from choosing a normal cartridge, in a normal caliber.
                    But the Bolsheviks loved the Mausers (there was no education). They bought them in Germany (Mauser-Bolo). For these Mausers, they eventually bought a cartridge factory in Germany. And already under this cartridge they screwed up Colt.
                    That's about how the TT pistol appeared in the USSR.
                    But, I repeat again, everything could be done humanly.
                    1. +6
                      2 November 2016 19: 04
                      Quote: rjxtufh
                      But the Bolsheviks loved the Mausers (there was no education). They bought them in Germany (Mauser-Bolo). For these Mausers, they eventually bought a cartridge factory in Germany. And already under this cartridge they screwed up Colt.


                      Oh .. well, repeat your masterpiece nonsense about vintage carabiner cartridges, excess power, a sports TT and your other fortune-telling on coffee grounds.
                    2. +3
                      2 November 2016 20: 20
                      TT is, after all, not Colt. It has differences, including in the features of the trigger mechanism. The handle, however, seems uncomfortable after PM.
                      It seems to me that the choice for the "Mauser" was not accidental. Do not forget that in the first half of the twenties no one wanted with us, except ... the Germans! And it was easier to negotiate with them than with someone else.
                      Again, if everything is so good with the 45 caliber, then why is it still mostly used only by the Americans (though they later "rearranged" even the Colt under the Luger's cartridge). The answer is simple - this is their national caliber, and they are used to producing it!
                      1. 0
                        2 November 2016 22: 25
                        Quote: Mikado
                        TT is, after all, not Colt.

                        I did not write that it is 100% Colt.
                        Quote: Mikado
                        And it was easier to come to an agreement with them than with someone else.

                        But do not forget that after the defeat in WW1, the Germans were under sanctions. And they were forbidden to produce army weapons.
                        Those. the fact that they produced and sold the Mauser-Bolo on a 7,63x25 mm Mauser cartridge clearly indicates that it was not an army weapon. However, it has become such a fright in the USSR. Which was not under sanctions.
                        Quote: Mikado
                        Again, if everything is so good with the 45th caliber, then why is it still mostly used only by Americans

                        And even the Americans now use it mainly for filming in cowboy films. This is due to the massive use of bronics. But before they arrived, it really was a super-duper pistol cartridge. And he simply did not have competitors.
                    3. The comment was deleted.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
  5. +6
    1 November 2016 09: 06
    Shop for only 20 rounds, chickens to laugh. And the cartridge for PP is completely unsuccessful, the initial bullet is only 290 m / s. For comparison, MP-38/40 has 380 m / s, and PPSh 490 m / s. Therefore, the bullet from the PPT could not even penetrate a wooden door, and it was impossible to conduct targeted fire further than 100 m. From MP-38/40 it was possible to shoot accurately at a distance of up to 150 m, from PPSh - up to 200 m. In general, if he fired parabellum cartridges, he would be a more or less suitable weapon.
    1. +4
      1 November 2016 09: 21
      Quote: Comrade_Stalin
      Shop for only 20 rounds, chickens to laugh. And the cartridge for PP is completely unsuccessful, the initial bullet is only 290 m / s. For comparison, MP-38/40 has 380 m / s, and PPSh 490 m / s. Therefore, the bullet from the PPT could not even penetrate a wooden door

      Punch - yes, I could not, but the stopping effect of this bullet is very large, if it hit a person, then a short burst could break the body of a person ...
      1. +4
        1 November 2016 11: 32
        I do not think that the line from the PPT could tear a person apart. The 45th caliber has a low initial speed and a large diameter of the bullet, so most likely the bullet did not pierce the human body through, especially since the speed of the bullet is subsonic. To break the human body, you need a high speed bullet, more than 700 m / s, so that there is a water hammer. That is why, precisely because of the hydroblow, the striking and stopping power of bullets of 5,56 and 5,45 caliber with initial speeds of 900-950 m / s is even greater than the striking force of a bullet of 7,62 * 39 at short range. Therefore, by the way, hunters do not use high-speed small-caliber bullets, since they tear small game, and in medium and large game it is necessary to cut and throw out whole kilograms of meat, which turned into jelly due to water hammer.
        1. +2
          1 November 2016 14: 09
          I confirm - the Saigi 410 bullet using the enhanced charge and the hare paradox simply breaks, although it is several times smaller than the 12 caliber bullet, which does not do this.
        2. +1
          1 November 2016 16: 20
          Quote: Comrade_Stalin
          therefore, most likely, the bullet did not pierce the human body through

          This is what is called a "quality hit". All the energy of the bullet is transferred to the victim's body. And due to the large cross-sectional area, this happened abruptly, causing a painful shock. If the hit from the wartime Tommy-gun occurred closer than 280 m, then the pain shock threshold was exceeded. As a result, the enemy's central nervous system was damaged. And he died. Instantly.
          Similar processes occurred with the PPSh bullet. But there DEP (effective destruction range) was about 35 m. And at such a range it was difficult to achieve a high-quality hit, a relatively small-caliber bullet sought to go right through.
          Therefore, the main factor in the defeat of the PCA was His Majesty the case. The bullet could hit the bone (slow down sharply), head, heart, etc. But high-quality hunting (and army, this is a kind of hunting) weapon based on the case is not done. Qualitatively, the weapon should give a GUARANTEED result at a given range. Tommy-gan gave it. PPSh (and MP40, if interested), no.
          Quote: Comrade_Stalin
          That is why, precisely because of the hydroblow, the striking and stopping power of bullets of 5,56 and 5,45 caliber with initial speeds of 900-950 m / s is even greater than the striking force of a bullet of 7,62 * 39 at short range.

          I would not recommend you write on such topics. For the ears fade, and the eyes go blind.
          Amazing nonsense you write.
          1. +4
            1 November 2016 23: 16
            Quote: rjxtufh
            This is what is called a "quality hit". All bullet energy is transferred to the victim's body

            And the fact that military weapons must overcome shelters, you probably do not know? If punching action is not necessary in battle, then why then are steel heat-strengthened cores, an all-metal shell, a small caliber and a high bullet speed needed? Why then in the army do not use expansive bullets? Can you explain to me? By your logic, the Americans did a lot of stupidity by creating a 5,56 * 45 high-speed cartridge with a 4 g bullet and an initial speed of 950 m / s. They needed to create a cartridge of 11,43 * 45 with a bullet weighing 15 g and an initial speed of 240 m / s. And it is imperative that the bullet is completely lead, so that it splits when it hits an obstacle.
            1. 0
              2 November 2016 00: 16
              Quote: Comrade_Stalin
              And the fact that military weapons must overcome shelters, you probably do not know?

              At the time of 2 MV, there were no armors. Small arms should not penetrate the rest of the "shelters". He did not have such a task.
              Quote: Comrade_Stalin
              Why then in the army do not use expansive bullets?

              Those. you are not aware of international conventions.
              Quote: Comrade_Stalin
              According to your logic

              You young man, poke someone else. And something else.
              Quote: Comrade_Stalin
              creating a high-speed cartridge 5,56 * 45 with a bullet weighing 4 g and an initial speed of 950 m / s. They needed to create a cartridge of 11,43 * 45 with a bullet weighing 15 g and an initial speed of 240 m / s.

              They tried to do so. Increasing the power of the Tommy Gun cartridge. But they came up against a dead end that could not be avoided. The laws of physics are against.
              Then they made bullets of a new principle of action. And their success exceeded all expectations. As a result, weapons on cartridges with such bullets instantly supplanted all other samples of individual army weapons. Except army pistols.
              Quote: Comrade_Stalin
              And it is imperative that the bullet is completely lead, so that it splits when it hits an obstacle.

              You are ironic in vain. Lead bullets have their own chips.
              1. +3
                2 November 2016 00: 37
                Oh Gods!!! I can’t do that anymore !!!
                Those. you are not aware of international conventions.

                I thought that adults gather here at VO without pink glasses and really looking at the world.
                They tried to do so. Increasing the power of the Tommy Gun cartridge. But they came up against a dead end that could not be avoided. The laws of physics are against.

                Americans, on the contrary, reduced their cartridge 7,62 * 63 to 7,62 * 51 and adopted the M14 instead of Garand. Or do you think that 7,62 * 51 is a matured 11,43 * 23 :)))))?
                Then they made bullets of a new principle of action. And their success exceeded all expectations. As a result, weapons on cartridges with such bullets instantly supplanted all other samples of individual army weapons

                In fact, the first intermediate cartridge was invented and adopted by the Germans with their 7,92 * 33. Already from them the Russians copied with their 7,62 * 39, and from the Russians the Americans created their own 5,56 * 45, from which, in turn, the Russians pushed off when creating 5,45 * 39.
                1. 0
                  2 November 2016 00: 45
                  Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                  I thought that adults gather here at VO without pink glasses and really looking at the world.

                  These are adults. And really looking.
                  And the Convention has been over 100 years old. And all this time it has been respected.
                  Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                  Americans, on the contrary, reduced their cartridge 7,62 * 63 to 7,62 * 51 and adopted the M14 instead of Garand. Or do you think that 7,62 * 51 is a matured 11,43 * 23

                  You are an astounding layman. Why are you even writing on this topic?
                  Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                  In fact, the first intermediate cartridge was invented and adopted by the Germans with their 7,92 * 33

                  Athas. You absolutely do not understand what they are writing to you. Those. you don’t even guess nearby.
                  Once again I repeat my question, why are you writing on this topic?
                  Quote: Comrade_Stalin
                  Germans with their 7,92 * 33. Already from them the Russians copied with their 7,62 * 39, and from the Russians the Americans created their own 5,56 * 45,

                  All. My strength is no more.
                  Learn at least the basics of the question.
                  Goodbye.
              2. +4
                2 November 2016 11: 23
                Quote: rjxtufh
                At the time of 2 MV there were no armor plates.

                There were. And in the first world, too, were.
                Quote: rjxtufh
                Small arms should not penetrate the rest of the "shelters".

                Must. To hit the enemy behind this shelter.
                1. 0
                  2 November 2016 11: 45
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  There were. And in the first world, too, were.

                  I will leave this passage on your conscience. Apparently only you managed to discern the massive use of bronikov during 1 and 2 MV.
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  Must. To hit the enemy behind this shelter.

                  For this there were PTRs. And the guns. Or, in extreme cases, special armor-piercing bullets.
                  1. +4
                    2 November 2016 12: 09
                    Quote: rjxtufh
                    I will leave this passage on your conscience.

                    And I talked about mass?
                    Quote: rjxtufh
                    For this there were PTRs. And the guns.

                    Will we give each fighter a PTR and a gun?
                    Quote: rjxtufh
                    Or, in extreme cases, special armor-piercing bullets.

                    That is, it should. good
                    1. 0
                      2 November 2016 19: 04
                      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                      And I talked about mass?

                      And I just said.
                      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                      Will we give each fighter a PTR and a gun?

                      Why is this for every fighter? Do you have an army of terminators?
                      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                      That is, it should

                      What for?
                      Universal weapons for all occasions have not yet been invented in the world. Will they invent in the future. So your chores are in vain.
                      1. 0
                        2 November 2016 23: 01
                        Quote: rjxtufh
                        And I just said.

                        Quote: rjxtufh
                        At the time of 2 MV there were no armor plates.

                        Where?
                        Quote: rjxtufh
                        Why is this for every fighter? Do you have an army of terminators?

                        Well, why? Shoot the enemy.
                        Quote: rjxtufh
                        Universal weapons for all occasions have not yet been invented in the world. Will they invent in the future. So your chores are in vain.

                        Then what is this advantage over an enemy fighter who does not have such a weapon. You won’t need to call a tank or an artillery strike if you yourself can hit an enemy soldier who is hiding behind a shelter. Nevertheless, where possible they try to make any item as functional as possible, because you won’t get enough separate things for every occasion, it’s expensive and often extremely uncomfortable.
                      2. 0
                        2 November 2016 23: 39
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        Then what is this advantage over an enemy fighter who does not have such a weapon.

                        For now, God forbid, crawl to parity.
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        You will not need to call a tank or artillery strike if you yourself can hit an enemy soldier who has sunken behind cover with your personal weapons.

                        PPC. Storyteller Krylov, second series.
                        Or grandmother Arina?
              3. +2
                9 November 2016 21: 21
                "At the time of 2 MV, there were no armors. And small arms should not penetrate the rest of the" cover ". He did not have such a task." (from)
                Dreamer The Germans also hoped for it. DShB fighters at work
                1. 0
                  9 November 2016 23: 02
                  Quote: Shishiga
                  Dreamer The Germans also hoped for it. DShB fighters at work

                  You, I look, are a specialist in pictures. There were no armored during the war. And after her they were not. And even in Afghanistan they were not. Only after he appeared.
                  And show your pictures to schoolchildren. And tell them the "facts."
                  1. 0
                    9 November 2016 23: 11
                    Quote: rjxtufh
                    You, I look, are a specialist in pictures. There were no armored during the war. And after her they were not. And even in Afghanistan they were not. Only after he appeared.

                    Well, then you are our specialist in outright nonsense, you and the photo of the soldiers of the assault brigades, not a decree.
                    Can you stop raving already?
                    http://erazvitie.org/article/shturmovye_inzhnery
                    Learn materiel, illiterate.
                    http://forum.ww2.ru/index.php?showtopic=1300290
                    1. +1
                      9 November 2016 23: 41
                      Assault brigades, video, for illiterate commentators ...

                      1. 0
                        10 November 2016 00: 00
                        Quote: The Bloodthirster
                        video, for illiterate commentators ...

                        Miracle, can you distinguish special equipment from the standard?
                    2. +1
                      10 November 2016 00: 01
                      Quote: The Bloodthirster
                      Learn materiel, illiterate.

                      This is stupid. He is talking about standard equipment, and he is about special equipment.
                      Absolutely does not understand the difference.
            2. 0
              2 November 2016 21: 49
              Quote: Comrade_Stalin
              Why then in the army do not use expansive bullets?

              In 1899, expansive (expanding and deforming) bullets were banned for military use by the First Hague Peace Convention. The Second Hague Convention in 1907 confirmed the ban. Paradoxically, this ban is still being rigorously implemented by all countries, in any case as far as the ammunition models officially adopted for service. hi
          2. 0
            5 November 2016 19: 29
            And so the smart American Jiay sent pp Thompson with his unsurpassed 12 mm caliber and a wonderful asshole in the ass and switched to the 7,62 * 51 M-1 Garand, and then the M-16.
            1. 0
              5 November 2016 21: 42
              Quote: Shishiga
              And so the smart American Jiay sent pp Thompson with his unsurpassed 12 mm caliber and a wonderful asshole in the ass and switched to the 7,62 * 51 M-1 Garand, and then the M-16.

              Learn the history of weapons. Thompson was replaced by the M16A1. And 7,62x51 mm there sideways.
              1. +2
                9 November 2016 21: 29
                learn the story of the dropout, and what do you say for the M-14.

                M14 - American automatic rifle, which was in service with the US Army in 1950-1960.
                Although the M14 was largely replaced by rifles of the M16 family, it remains in service with the Marine Corps and the US Navy, as well as the armies of several other states.
                Cartridge: 7,62 × 51 mm NATO
                Caliber, mm: 7,62
                lol
                1. 0
                  9 November 2016 23: 03
                  Quote: Shishiga
                  learn the story of the dropout, and what do you say for the M-14

                  It is completely illiterate users, like you, to boom that they know something and understand something in weapons.
                  I wrote there above, as it was. Memorize, you need.
                  1. +2
                    19 November 2016 18: 37
                    Learn your nonsense ?? Yes, you flatter your exorbitantly hyped conceit.
      2. 0
        1 November 2016 16: 07
        Quote: svp67
        Punch - yes, I could not, but the stopping effect of this bullet is very large, if it hit a person, then a short burst could break the body of a person ...

        Tear, do not tear, but the central nervous system at a range of up to 280 m with a qualitative hit was hit reliably. True, only a trained soldier could get beyond 200 m.
        At the same time, from the PPSh, the central nervous system was guaranteed to be affected no further than 35 m.
        What further can you argue, what to compare?
        1. +1
          7 November 2016 17: 35
          Quote: rjxtufh
          At the same time, from the PPSh, the central nervous system was guaranteed to be affected no further than 35 m.

          Where did this exact figure of 35 meters come from? Are you a weapon designer or factory tester? Everywhere you indicate this figure, and when people give out information from some Wikisites - write they say read more. Give your references and literature, and preferably not only from potential enemies and direct competitors, who may have carried trunks killed in the trash for examination.
          1. 0
            7 November 2016 21: 25
            Quote: Corsair
            You are a weapon designer

            In order to calculate DEP constructor is not necessary. Although some specialized knowledge is still necessary.
            You will not find this figure anywhere. Not for any type of weapon. Only by calculating yourself. Using special programs and then pasting into a special formula.
            Quote: Corsair
            Give your links and literature

            Easier to open courses.
            1. +6
              8 November 2016 09: 34
              Here is the answer, a masterpiece, a special program ... In general, I used my special program and it turned out that your beloved Tommy (you have everything American is your beloved) at a distance of over 100 m doesn’t have a chance to kill anyone, yes, like that, the heavy bullet and the low initial speed were to blame (hi air resistance).
              By the way, the army sight on the m-1 is so primitive that it looks like a bent piece of iron put up for shooting -90 meters.
              I like to watch the channel "Weapon", there are often US programs, and yes, if it comes to tomis (yes, about everything American), then everyone is just pissing with boiling water, from veterans to modern amateurs. I do not want to say that this is a bad machine gun (submachine gun), no, but this is definitely not an army machine gun with an effective firing range of over 200 meters (hello PPSh), it is just a police submachine gun with an effective firing range of up to 100 meters (cap , do you know what effective firing range is?). Returning to the TV, in one of the American programs (I don’t remember the name), a group of gun lovers (athletes, military men), tested some old weapons, including a "tommy", and so when shooting bottles from a distance 20 meters, "Tommy" did everything quite accurately and effectively, but at a distance of 45 meters, problems with hitting began (not newcomers were shooting), they did not even shoot at 100 meters.
              In short, in order not to look fabulous on this forum - fucking .. please spread the sources of your inspiration, otherwise we will ask the administration to ban you so that you don’t introduce confusion into our fragile minds.
              1. +4
                8 November 2016 10: 34
                Quote: heruv1me
                please lay out the sources of your inspiration

                It is useless - they do not spit on such requests. laughing That is, they offer at best to google themselves, or mock something contemptuous in the spirit of a type, if you don’t know where the Great Guru rjxtufh got his nonsense from, then they’re idiots lol

                Quote: heruv1me
                otherwise we will ask the administration to ban you

                I would join such a request. Although he is an outstanding clown, and could please the forum population, but not in the same doses ... wink
              2. 0
                8 November 2016 15: 04
                Quote: heruv1me
                Here is the answer, a masterpiece, a special program ...

                Surprise, but progress has stepped far forward. Already for days and nights, you don’t need to sit with a slide rule. And a friendly team, besides.
                Quote: heruv1me
                that your beloved Tommy (you have everything American-beloved) at a distance of over 100 m does not have a chance to kill anyone

                Why? Creates unnecessary turbulence?
                Kstiti, you drive in a threshold of pain sensitivity?
                Quote: heruv1me
                a heavy bullet and a low initial speed are to blame (hi air resistance).

                Well, of course, none. So far you are talking about your favorite topic in Runet "flatness of the trajectory".
                Just in case, I’ll inform you that Thompson during the war has a direct shot range of about 190 m for a height figure.
                And it is THANKS to the heavy bullet.
                By the way, the ballistic coefficient (air resistance) of the Thompson bullet is MUCH better than the PPSh bullet.
                You still need to learn the basics of ballistics, and not tell me fables about what you drove to and where.
                Quote: heruv1me
                I like to watch the channel "weapons"

                Well, okay. You need to round off.
                Quote: heruv1me
                but it’s definitely not an army assault rifle with an effective firing range of over 200 meters (hi PPSh), it’s just a police submachine gun with an effective firing range of up to 100 meters

                And who is asking your opinion? The Thompsons were in service with the U.S. Army until the 60s, until they were replaced by the M16A1.
                And your footage is just rubbish.
                Quote: heruv1me
                Returning to the TV

                Exactly. Come back better to the TV.
                Quote: heruv1me
                that would not look fabulous on this forum - dolb ..

                How are you with your statements?
                Quote: heruv1me
                otherwise we will ask the administration to ban you, so that with your own understanding you will not introduce confusion into our fragile minds.

                Ask. A request from a weak mind, like you, may well be effective. You are not capable of anything else. And you can’t understand complicated things, you don’t even want to.
      3. +2
        5 November 2016 19: 14
        Are you going to stop or kill in the war ??? If you stop, then it’s more likely for you to go to the police. And the line of tearing a person to 50 meters - at a distance of 250 meters from the target is very little consolation.
    2. 0
      1 November 2016 16: 03
      Quote: Comrade_Stalin
      And the cartridge for PP is completely unsuccessful, the initial bullet is only 290 m / s. For comparison, MP-38/40 has 380 m / s, and PPSh 490 m / s.

      And the fact that the bullet weighed 14,9 g instead of 5,52 g for the TT cartridge doesn’t tell you anything?
      Who taught you to judge a weapon by his / her bullet?
      Quote: Comrade_Stalin
      Therefore, the bullet from the PPT could not even penetrate a wooden door, and it was impossible to conduct targeted fire further than 100 m.

      Read Soviet instruction on Thompson. Thompson wartime direct shot range 190 m.
      Quote: Comrade_Stalin
      In general, if he fired parabellum cartridges, he would be a more or less suitable weapon.

      Yeah. Better yet, "small".
      1. +3
        1 November 2016 16: 43
        Again you are with your 35 m. If 7,62x25 had such a destruction range - no one would even use it even in pistols. Bullet weight doesn’t mean much - a modern machine gun generally weighs 3-4 g, but its striking ability is higher than .45. Tommy-gan further than 100 m is generally useless - in Murmansk, an escaped deserter was shot from 2 barrels - there were 150 m 4-5 hits in the back from a distance, not a single shot overcoat.
        1. 0
          1 November 2016 20: 33
          Quote: Forest
          Again you are with your 35 m.

          This is not me with my 35 m. This is PCA with my 35 m.
          I’m not doing business here.
          Quote: Forest
          if 7,62x25 had such a range of defeat

          Range of EFFECTIVE defeat. Those. GUARANTEED.
          Quote: Forest
          no one would even use it at all in pistols.

          Wow. What about the Mauser-Yuolo? After all, Germany after the defeat in the 1MB war was allowed to produce only funny crackers. Including and Mauser-cut. And the Bolsheviks took and bought this clapperboard for the army. The mercenaries then pushed this Mauser-Bolo model. And when the red commanders ran out of ammunition, they bought a cartridge factory. And already under the cartridge of Mauser (slightly corrected caliber) they made a pistol. Allegedly, the army, but with a DEP of 0 (zero) meters. Well, and then they began to make PP on this cartridge.
          And to remind, where did the whole story begin? With the defeat of the Nmts in 1MV and the production of all sorts of different funny clappers. And you won’t make candy out of a cracker (in the letter G).
          Quote: Forest
          Bullet weight doesn’t mean much - a modern automatic bullet weighs 3-4 g in general

          Do not confuse classic bullets and modern "little things". They have a different principle of action in terminal ballistics.
          Quote: Forest
          Tommy gun beyond 100 m is generally useless - in Murmansk they fired from 2 barrels at an escaped deserter - there were 150-4 hits in the back from a distance of 5 m, not a single shot overcoat.

          Well, what can I write? Bullshit, of course.
          Just in case, I repeat, the penetrating ability of the Thompson bullet is slightly larger than the PM bullet.
          In the Soviet Manual on Thompson 1942. shooting tables are marked out at 457 m (500 yards).
          A table of deviations and derivations is given for the same maximum range.
          1. +1
            2 November 2016 12: 01
            The 7,62x25 bullet retains killer properties until 500 is guaranteed, it can also be killed on 600-700 if it is lucky. High initial speed - a greater effect of water hammer, stronger damage and necrosis of the tissues surrounding the wound. And on 35 m it does not fall much. Due to this and better flatness, the effective fire of PPSh and PPS was more than MP-38 / 40, etc. and the Germans in direct conflict suffered losses earlier. The contemporary PDW 4,7-mm bullet generally weighs 1,5 g, but effective fire up to 150 m is possible and the striking ability is quite nominal.
            For Tokarev’s PP under the Nagan cartridge, they were going to mark the tabular range in general to 700 m; This is the maximum range of a bullet.
            1. 0
              2 November 2016 12: 58
              Quote: Forest
              The 7,62x25 bullet maintains slaughter properties up to 500 guaranteed,

              You are confusing the concept of "can kill" and the concept of "surely kill". Here is the "killing effect of a bullet", this "can kill". If it gets into the ZhVO. And if it doesn't, then it won't kill. Such weapons are not suitable for the army. It is customary to arm normal armies with such weapons, which will "kill without fail." At a predetermined distance and with a quality hit.
              For PP, if you are not in the know, this is 100 m. (For PPSh 35 m, for MP40 60 m). And for an army pistol, 50 m. (TT 0 m, Walter P38 35 m).
              Quote: Forest
              High initial speed - greater water hammer effect

              1. For terminal ballistics, the final speed on the target matters. But not the initial one.
              2. High speed and small caliber with classic bullets, this is a high risk of "marriage", injuries right through.
              3. The power of the water hammer depends on the speed of the bullet's energy transfer to the "carcass". But here everything is very, very bad for the classic little girls.
              Quote: Forest
              Due to this and better flatness, the effective fire of PPSh and PPS was more than MP-38/40

              Ugh, you. Again this Runet nonsense "for flatness."
              Quote: Forest
              4,7mm PDW modern bullet generally weighs 1,5g,

              Clarify for yourself how classic bullets differ from modern small things.
              Quote: Forest
              For Tokarev’s PP under the Nagan cartridge, they were going to mark the tabular range in general up to 700 m

              A bad head often does not give legs (and hands) peace.
          2. +1
            5 November 2016 19: 51
            From the Thompson Guidelines so advertised by you

            Main characteristics.

            Caliber .45 dm. (11,43 mm.)
            Number of cuts 6
            Rifling constant steepness -
            Rifling pitch 16 dm. (406,4 mm.)
            Right cut -
            Barrel length 10,5 dm. (266,7 mm.)
            The total length of the submachine gun, including the compensator 33,687 dm. (855,70 mm.)
            The radius of the sight is 22,3 dm. (566,40 mm.)
            Initial speed of 802 fps. (245 m / s)
            Channel pressure (approx.) 12000 psi to 16000 psi (844 kg / cm² to 1125 kg / cm²)
            Rate of fire during continuous shooting 600-700 rds / min.
            Weight data
            The weight of a submachine gun without a magazine is 10,75 lbs. (4,875 kg.)
            The weight of the loaded magazine with the 20th pat. 1,308 pounds (0,595 kg.)
            The weight of the loaded magazine with the 50th pat. 4,945 pounds (2,245 kg.)
            The weight of an unloaded magazine for 20 patras. 0,380 lbs. (0,175 kg.)
            The weight of an unloaded magazine for 50 patras. 2,625 lbs. (1,193 kg.)
            Weight live cartridge approx. 325 gran. (19,2 gr.)
            Bullet weight approx. 230 gran. (13,8 gr.)
            Weight gunpowder. charge approx. 5 gran. (0,3 gr.)


            And that is characteristic of not a single characteristic in terms of firing range, well, except perhaps it could be - A scope radius of 22,3 dm. (566,40 mm.)
            As there is no distance at which the lethal action of the bullet is preserved.
            1. 0
              5 November 2016 21: 45
              Quote: Shishiga
              As there is no distance at which the lethal action of the bullet is preserved.

              You can calculate it yourself, it’s not very difficult. You only need to be able to. Those. possess certain knowledge.
              Do you have them?
              1. +1
                9 November 2016 21: 36
                Well, show off your intellect, amaze us with your knowledge, see what you can do there
        2. 0
          5 November 2016 04: 17
          Oppa! Could this episode be more detailed? You are welcome!
      2. 0
        9 November 2016 21: 35
        instruction in the studio. If it exists in nature lol lol
        1. 0
          9 November 2016 23: 07
          Calm down, "literate" exists.
  6. +1
    1 November 2016 09: 11
    Thank you for the article. By the way, we also noted American pistols. Coming with combat aircraft
    And of course "Tommy" is one of the best "supporting artists"

    It turns out that the Tommy Gun fought. So almost my
    He is so "his own" that in Ukraine, he is included in the list of AWARDED WEAPONS ...

    Like the machine gun "Maxim"

    And most importantly, all in ONE HAND ...
    1. +1
      1 November 2016 14: 06
      Quote: svp67
      Like the machine gun "Maxim"

      Not understood? That the "Maxim" machine gun is awarded in Ukraine as an award weapon?
      1. +2
        2 November 2016 02: 34
        Quote: Amurets
        That the Maxim machine gun is awarded in Ukraine as a premium weapon?

        It turns out ....

        Code GRAU 56P-421 is a machine gun "Maxim"
        1. +1
          2 November 2016 05: 53
          Quote: svp67

          1
          svp67 Today, 02: 34 New
          Quote: Amurets
          That the Maxim machine gun is awarded in Ukraine as a premium weapon?

          It turns out ....

          In give! "It's hard in the village without Maxim" comes out ....
          1. +1
            2 November 2016 07: 27
            Quote: Amurets
            In give! "It's hard in the village without Maxim" comes out ....

            And from the Minister of Defense the award Thompson .... Well, "Maxim" is OUR, he was produced and was in service with us, although the machine gun in the economy is clearly too much, how many "lustrators" Senya plans to shoot back from? But the American PP ????? Apparently Senya and decided to prepare for the "internal party" showdown ... But I'm wondering, did he manage to acquire a sniper rifle? And an ampoule with cyanide potassium, so that in case of something "to leave" proudly "in Aryan" ...
            1. +1
              2 November 2016 07: 46
              Quote: svp67
              And I'm wondering, did he manage to acquire a sniper rifle? And an ampoule with potassium cyanide, so that in case of something "to leave" proudly "in Aryan" ...

              I know the story of Maxim. Lots of information about him. But other? Yes, Senyane stole in order to leave "in Aryan". He dug a cache for himself somewhere, far from his homeland.
  7. 0
    1 November 2016 10: 00
    From Wikipedia about Reising M50 / M55.
    “In 1940, the" Raising "was adopted by the US Marine Corps, while it was supposed to have 4 PP per division.

    During the Second World War, this PP was used at the Pacific Theater of War, in particular - in the battles on the Solomon Islands and the Battle of Guadalcanal. It was mainly used by command personnel, essentially acting in the Marine Corps as an analogue of the M1 carbine used by the US Army.

    Also, in some quantities, the “Raising” M55 with a folding stock went into service with the Paramarines and armored crews, however, they enjoyed a poor reputation, mainly due to the unsuccessful design of the shoulder support, which sometimes self-stacked when firing.

    Originally developed as a police weapon, designed for relatively “civilian” operating conditions, “Racing”, as it soon became clear, was quite unsuitable for military operations in the Pacific coast with its characteristic sand and salt water. The reliability of the weapon in such conditions was extremely low. Tests at the Aberdeen training ground subsequently revealed that the assembly and disassembly of weapons was unnecessarily complicated, so the maintenance of weapons was also difficult. In addition, the details of various weapons were not interchangeable due to individual adjustment during manufacture, which became a big problem in the operation and repair of the troops. The Soviet instruction manual, for example, categorically forbade during disassembly to confuse the details of one submachine gun with the details of another.

    The design of the weapon was quite complex and, moreover, prone to delays in firing due to the rapid contamination of the ledge of the receiver, which serves to slow down the shutter, dust and powder burnout. At the same time, the shutter did not reach the extremely forward position, and the trigger continued to lock the trigger, preventing a shot from being fired. Such delays during firing were all the more difficult to eliminate given the fact that the cocking handle of the Racing was not rigidly connected to the bolt, which precluded the possibility of sending it forward manually [1]

    In the end, the reputation of "Racing" in the troops was extremely low, many marines tried to get rid of these weapons as soon as possible. There is even a known case when an entire battalion of marine corps, on the orders of Lieutenant Colonel Merrit Edson (Merritt A. Edson) drowned his "Razings" in the river to get weapons more suitable for warfare [2]. Often, the M1 self-loading carbine turned out to be one.

    As a result, at the end of 1943, the Raisinges were withdrawn from the troops and transferred to the Coast Guard and ship crews, as well as the Police, State Defense Forces and OSS. Some of this, which has shown its unsuitability for hostilities, weapons were sent to the allies under Lend-Lease, including the USSR, as well as various resistance movements. In Canada, the "Raising" was received by volunteers guarding German prisoners of war, and reserve units, along with other obsolete weapons. "
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Model-50.
    jpg? uselang = en
  8. +1
    1 November 2016 11: 09
    The Soviet tank was the standard weapon of that time.

    There, as a requirement, it was possible to conduct aimed fire through special hatches in the tank. Therefore revolvers. Moreover, the same Drabkin came across a mention of "rotten" cartridges that floated up from tankers, which gave misfires in the revolver with a 50% chance. In addition to revolvers, parabellums and walters were suitable in format, but there were few of them.
    As for the Thompsons, the same Drabkin has a mention of the then prevailing tales that Thompson did not break through a double padded jacket in the cold. Can someone find about .45 ballistics at sub-zero temperatures? Another mention that the tankers did not really master these weapons. Perhaps the truth was no cartridges and instructions. Up to the cases that they could not use the weapon because of inability or because the PP, previously stored in the tank as it should, was out of order.
  9. 0
    1 November 2016 11: 23


    The machine gun of a fighter on the tommy gun is not very similar, with the exception of the muzzle brake. I wonder what kind of device it is?
    1. +2
      1 November 2016 11: 37
      Reising M50/M55.
    2. +1
      1 November 2016 11: 38
      Some of this, which has shown its unsuitability for combat, weapons were sent to the allies under Lend-Lease, including the USSR, as well as to various resistance movements. In Canada, the "Raising" was received by volunteers guarding German prisoners of war and reserve units, along with other obsolete weapons. "
  10. +3
    1 November 2016 11: 56
    He fought, but without much success. Because of the soft bullet, destroying the enemy, even behind a light barrier, was not realistic. The bullet did not penetrate the sapper blade.
    1. 0
      1 November 2016 16: 23
      Quote: Haloperidol
      The bullet did not penetrate the sapper blade.

      And a piece of paper with a black circle. Therefore, the targets were reusable.
      Stop saying nonsense.
      The penetrating ability of Tommy Gan is slightly larger than that of PM. Although a hole punch, of course, you will not name.
      1. +4
        1 November 2016 16: 33
        Himself shot him ?! No?! So do not state so categorically what you yourself did not see!
        1. 0
          8 November 2016 09: 49
          Quote: Haloperidol
          Himself shot him ?!

          What for? And what can the gunner say about the effectiveness of the weapon?
          Arrows to design weapons have nothing to do. And to evaluate his fighting qualities, too. So, evaluate ergonomics. Well, maximum reliability. And that’s it.
      2. +4
        1 November 2016 18: 27
        PM pistol sample 1951. If you compare, then compare with PPD, PPSh, PPS, and such a comparison will not be in favor of the American ... PPSh will break a board of such thickness that the American never dreamed of ...
        1. 0
          1 November 2016 20: 35
          Quote: Bering Strait
          PPSh will break a board of such thickness that the American never dreamed of ...

          And the anti-tank gun will pierce even more.
          Only PP has other tasks. And punching boards is not his business.
          1. +4
            2 November 2016 09: 56
            It can be seen that neither you nor your relatives were at war ..... When the first AK-74 models couldn’t reach the enemy in the reed thicket, only the PCs that mowed, in Afghanistan, this reed together with spirits helped out ...
            1. 0
              2 November 2016 13: 01
              Quote: Bering Strait
              When the first AK-74 models couldn’t reach the enemy in the thicket of reeds, only the PCs that mowed in Afghanistan rescued this reed together with spirits ...

              That's what they were given. Each weapon has its own field of activity.
              The next move, you tell us how the AK-74 could not finish off the enemies in a concrete bunker?
              1. +3
                2 November 2016 13: 20
                That's why they abandoned the AK-74, removing it from service, in favor of the new AK-74M, which corrected the shortcomings of the AK-74 ... Weapons that do not penetrate the thickets of reeds of the army are not needed ...
                1. 0
                  2 November 2016 15: 31
                  Quote: Demeter
                  A weapon that does not penetrate the thickets of reeds of the army is not necessary ...

                  The war in the reeds? This is original.
                  In fact, wars are fought in other places. And in reeds, limited operations can be carried out. Police officers, for example.
                  Then write so, the AK-74 is not suitable for the police. But in the army there are other types of weapons for such extraordinary tasks.
                  1. +2
                    3 November 2016 11: 43
                    The war is fought everywhere and in the reeds too ... In 1944, they fought in the swamps ...
                    1. 0
                      3 November 2016 16: 21
                      Quote: Corvetkapitan
                      The war is fought everywhere and in the reeds too ... In 1944, they fought in the swamps ...

                      But this does not mean that weapons must be made for fighting in the reeds.
                      It says above about limited operations.
                  2. +1
                    5 November 2016 19: 57
                    Fighting for your information is carried out everywhere, at any time of the day, and even about the horror of the year.
                    The Germans did not suspect this - an outcome on the face.
                    1. 0
                      5 November 2016 21: 47
                      Quote: Shishiga
                      Fighting for your information is carried out everywhere, at any time of the day, and even about the horror of the year.

                      Ahhhh. And then I, a sinful thing, thought that they are now being conducted only in the reeds.
                      Well, at least you, a cool man who knows military affairs, suggested.
                      1. +1
                        9 November 2016 21: 39
                        you are always welcome, otherwise you, as I suspect more a theorist hi
  11. +1
    1 November 2016 13: 18
    Not a cheap weapon for the Red Army
  12. 0
    1 November 2016 13: 23
    Cognitively - I thought it was only delivered with tanks ....... but it turns out with planes too ... Thanks for the article, that something new was learned about Lend-Lease
  13. +1
    1 November 2016 13: 30
    Here are the data on the export of small arms by Ukraine in 2013 (taken from BMPD). Pay attention to the variety of brands and types of weapons, there are also "Thompsons". This is how much good they got from the USSR! Total from 2011 to 2015 they sold almost 615 thousand units. small arms.
    Small arms exports from Ukraine in 2013 (total - 112413 pcs.):
    - revolvers and pistols: Germany - 1412, USA - 4000, Great Britain - 1378, Canada - 600, Czech Republic - 500, Azerbaijan - 3, Peru -410;
    - rifles and carbines: Austria -2000, Germany -9500, USA -30000, Great Britain -7668, Canada -19100, Czech Republic - 510, Italy - 500, Moldova -15;

    -automatons and submachine guns: Austria - 4500, Czech Republic - 16100, Ethiopia - 10000, Tajikistan - 2000;

    -Light machine guns: Turkish Republic - 5, Tajikistan - 500, Chad - 500.

    The 2013 report for the UN Register does not indicate the sale by Ukrspetsexport of the company JOSONS sarl (Lebanon) 1212 pcs. 5,45th machine gun AKS-74U (AKSU-74) at $ 150 for each.

    Buyer Goods Quantity Price, UAH
    IZH Impex Inc. Canada 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2850 774521,7
    Bell Lifestyle Products Inc Canada 7,62 mm SKS carbine 1995 542165,19
    "Waffen Schumacher GmbH" 7,62 mm rifle SVT 2500 1338827,5
    "Hire & Fire" USA Rifle Mauser K98, 7,92x57 379 251435,8
    "Hire & Fire" USA 7,62 mm rifle SVT 2000 1071062
    "Hire & Fire" USA 7,62 mm pistol TT 1000 239790
    IZH Impex Inc. Canada 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2150 852053,8
    IZH Impex Inc. Canada 7,62 mm rifle SVT 500
    IZH Impex Inc. Canada 7,62 mm pistol TT 600 143874
    "Hire & Fire" USA 9mm pistols Star B 378 211494,78
    "Hire & Fire" USA 7,92 mm rifle VZ-24 289 138598,62
    "Limex GmbH" Austria 7,62mm carbine SKS 2000 367678
    "Hire & Fire" USA 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2810 763651,22
    Bell Lifestyle Products Inc Canada 7,62 mm SKS carbine 2005 544882,81
    "Limex GmbH" Austria 11,43mm Thompson submachine gun mod. 1928 1400 1342824
    "Limex GmbH" Austria 11,43mm submachine gun Thompson 1100 1055076

    Savminter Enterprises Ltd Canada 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2100 702632,66
    "Sabine Schneider" Germany 7,62mm pistol TT 1412 338583,48
    BVS, spol. sro Czech Republic 7,62 mm rifle SVT 500 267765,5
    BVS, spol. sro" Czech Republic 5,45 mm assault rifle AKS-74U 1000 959160
    BVS, spol. sro Czech Republic 7,62mm pistol TT 500 119895
    Savminter Enterprises Ltd Canada 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2500 836467,45
    Sportswereus Inc. USA 7,62 mm Nagant revolver 4000 863244
    "Hire & Fire" USA 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2190 595158,78
    Savminter Enterprises Ltd Canada 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2500 836467,45
    "Waffen Schumacher GmbH" Germany 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2500 679405
    "Waffen Schumacher GmbH" Germany 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2500 679405
    Savminter Enterprises Ltd Canada 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2500 836467,45
    "Sabine Schneider" Germany 7,62 mm carbine SKS 1000 183839
    "Palmetto SNC" Italy 7,62 mm carbine SKS 500 91919,5
    IZH Impex Inc. Canada 7,62 mm carbine SKS 2850 774521,7
    Bell Lifestyle Products Inc Canada 7,62 mm SKS carbine 1995 542165,19
  14. +10
    1 November 2016 14: 58
    A half-crazy carbin will come running, or like right now, and tell you that Tommigan is super super! And PPSh iPS is a worthless Soviet weapon! That Colt 45 cartridge is wow, and TT cartridge ugh! What a guarantee at all a wunderwafer, and the swt clumsy Soviet crafts! And most importantly, the M16 is a cool army automatic rifle, and the AK is an unsuccessful weakened assault rifle !!!!
    1. +1
      1 November 2016 17: 26
      Yeah you just vang laughing
      A stoker-stoker flew here and how he began to make a fool of the walls on an even place in the garden with words, tricky and text, and fragile minds. And so as not to recognize his flag, his yak darted from a frog to a Kiaezovsky changed his yak. wassat
    2. Alf
      +4
      1 November 2016 19: 47
      Quote: burigaz2010
      Scha run crazy carbin,

      Late, he is already here. It is enough to rise higher.
  15. +2
    1 November 2016 15: 01
    What is the most offensive, is that all the best of the land lease went after Stalingrad, both in a volitional and qualitative way, when it became clear how the war would end.
    In 1941, the USSR would have been glad to the Tommigans. And in the year 43 there was already PPS, and PPSh in sufficient quantities.
    1. +2
      1 November 2016 15: 11
      Yes dear unfortunately you are right! Waited for the USSR to weaken as much as possible!
      1. +2
        1 November 2016 15: 24
        No, they just decided whether it makes sense to spend resources on support or not. The same kittyhawks and trucks would be very much in time In the year 41. Like ANY tanks.
  16. 0
    1 November 2016 16: 03
    From the book "LEND-LISA Tanks in Battle":
    From the UK:
    4005 rifles and submachine guns (BRENs are not indicated from the set of the "UNIVERSAL" armored personnel carrier);
    3376 anti-tank rifles (the main armament of "Universal");
    From USA:
    131 small arms automatic weapons;
    12 pistols;
  17. 0
    1 November 2016 20: 29
    He found cartridges and cartridges, even one store came across in the mountains of the Caucasus.
  18. +4
    1 November 2016 21: 23
    Very interesting. The article was very excited. My mother fought in the railway. troops, ended the war in Poznan.
    Of course, she didn’t go on the attack; she carried out transportation in the front line of the duty station.
    BUT! They underwent military training and I have two photos at my place, where she is with the TOPMSON AUTOMATIC MACHINE! Mom died in 2000 on January 1st.
    To tears reminded her. Thank.
  19. 0
    1 November 2016 23: 22
    Well, dad is better for me.
  20. +1
    2 November 2016 02: 58
    They threw them out, took a rifle or something else. In the Smolensk region, they come across Vyazma with entire stores for 20 rounds of ammunition, that is, they were thrown out not because the cartridges were empty, but for other reasons, the cartridges of 40-41 were fresh. Fully equipped non-military machines with a radiator on the barrel with a muzzle brake and a sight with diopter. We have one in the museum, I had to disassemble the quality of machining the parts, very good and complicated, the thought immediately came to me easier to make a Degtyarev machine gun than it was. And the machine gun is a machine gun, and this little one will remain a little one. I watched how they shoot at him on the store’s YouTube for two targets, there is barely enough short line for each and let's change the store.
  21. +1
    2 November 2016 23: 45
    Quote: rjxtufh

    PPC. Storyteller Krylov, second series.
    Or grandmother Arina?

    And what am I wrong about you?
    1. 0
      2 November 2016 23: 54
      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
      And what am I wrong about you?

      I already wrote to you, you want to arm the army with what cannot be. At least based on gunpowder and bullets.
      Today, the most perfect individual army small arms, whether we like it or not, is a weapon on the M855 cartridge. This is the one with the SS109 bullet. Full-size, of course, not cuts. Everything until they came up with nothing better. We are waiting, sir.
      1. +1
        3 November 2016 00: 51
        Quote: rjxtufh
        I already wrote to you, you want to arm the army with what cannot be. At least based on gunpowder and bullets.

        I’m not going to arm the army. I have no money for this. Initially, the conversation was about whether the cover weapon should penetrate. In fact, you yourself said that you should give an example of armor-piercing bullets .. Why didn’t I understand the verbose demagogy after that?
      2. +3
        3 November 2016 04: 48
        Quote: rjxtufh
        This is the one with the SS109 bullet.

        Dear, when did the SS109 become a bullet? Are the weapons on the M855 cartridge the most advanced? Proofs in the studio, for that matter. And then reading your kommety ears are wrapped up, regardless of the branch in which you post ...
        1. 0
          3 November 2016 10: 05
          Quote: Timeout
          Dear, when did the SS109 become a bullet? Are the weapons on the M855 cartridge the most advanced? Proofs in the studio, for that matter.

          What can I talk about interestingly and fruitfully with a brow who does not know that SS109 is a bullet of cartridge M855?
          1. +1
            3 November 2016 11: 14
            Quote: rjxtufh
            What is SS109, is it an M855 cartridge bullet?
            Dear you are our all-knowing person, then solve the riddle. There are bullets in the photo, and what's the difference? If you are close to the topic, then say ...

            And the proofs from you are invisible ... The man is clearly confused.
            1. 0
              3 November 2016 16: 35
              Quote: Timeout
              If you are close to the topic, then say ...

              I'm not close to the topic, so are you comfortable?
              And not a puppet, so that someone pulled the strings and asked me tasks.
              They themselves must know which bullets are tracer and which are not. Which increased armor penetration (with hardened steel core), and which are not.
              1. +7
                4 November 2016 03: 04
                Quote: rjxtufh
                They themselves must know which bullets are tracer and which are not. Which increased armor penetration (with hardened steel core), and which are not.

                I was just expecting this. Instead of a specific answer, some kind of slurred excuse. I wonder where you saw in the sections of bullets an orange nose with a tracer composition or a black nose? In short, you proved that you are not an ordinary couch fighter, but a banal troll that cannot logically process publicly available information. And you use that porridge or incomprehensible substance that fills your head only for useless clapping on the clave. For self-education, the bullets shown in the photo have the same weight of 62,1 grains and belong to the cartridges M855 and L2a2 still bearing the designation 5.56x45 NATO. And in the photo below the SS109 cartridge.

                Or armor-piercing M995:

                So it’s clear from your knowledge that you don’t know nifig. Learn the materiel and then go into the debate.
                1. 0
                  4 November 2016 10: 04
                  Quote: Timeout
                  So it’s clear from your knowledge that you don’t know nifig. Learn the materiel and then go into the debate.

                  Once again, I repeat, you can’t pull me at the ropes and ask me the tasks.
                  And even more so, to judge my competence in this matter.
                  You follow. And finally, engage in self-education on the topic. And do not look at funny pictures on the internet.
                  1. +5
                    4 November 2016 14: 31
                    Quote: rjxtufh
                    You follow. And finally, engage in self-education on the topic. And do not look at funny pictures on the internet.

                    What a syllable! Indeed, it is already enviable. I am far from such speeches! Only I will not stop, there is a "complaint" button for you! And if, in reality, I don’t baptize children with you, I don’t crap in the same field. Only here you will not get away from reality, you my friend, just yap. And prove the opposite! For knowledge cannot be bought and Wikipedia cannot help.
                    1. 0
                      4 November 2016 16: 04
                      Quote: Timeout
                      And prove the opposite!

                      Yeah. Now. Only pull up my pants. Then I will drop everything and rush to convince you of something.
                      Quote: Timeout
                      Only now you can’t get away from reality, you my friend, just yap.

                      You have very correctly described the situation in relation to you.
                      1. 0
                        5 November 2016 01: 50
                        Quote: rjxtufh
                        You have very correctly described the situation in relation to you.

                        You know, dear Troll, your opinion is deeply purple to me. For a lot of Ponte and obscure letters are noticed only by you. So the discussion is over, the feeding of the troll is stopped.
                      2. 0
                        8 November 2016 09: 54
                        Quote: Timeout
                        your opinion is deep purple to me

                        I am upset to tears.
                        Quote: Timeout
                        So the discussion is over

                        And was she? Are you generally able to discuss this topic? Do you know the substance of the question?
                        Does not look like it.
                  2. +3
                    5 November 2016 20: 04
                    draining counted lol
  22. +2
    3 November 2016 00: 58
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Today, the most perfect individual army small arms, whether we like it or not, is a weapon on the M855 cartridge. This is the one with the SS109 bullet. Full-size, of course, not cuts. Everything until they came up with nothing better. We are waiting, sir.

    Due to the mass equipping of armies with bulletproof vests, the weapons on this cartridge no longer meet modern requirements. And a return of 7,62x51 is required. Especially when you consider the tendency to increase the distance of the battle.
    1. 0
      3 November 2016 10: 11
      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
      Due to the mass equipping of armies with bulletproof vests, the weapons on this cartridge no longer meet modern requirements.

      Yes, there is such a problem. But the full-sized weapon on the M855 cartridge is by far the best that was invented in the field of automatic individual small arms. With all its shortcomings.
      The competitors have even more shortcomings.
      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
      And a return of 7,62x51 is required.

      It is IMPOSSIBLE to create automatic individual small arms on this cartridge. The laws of physics are against. Only self-loading.
      Although, who knows. What people can’t come up with to kill their own kind. Therefore, it is more correct to say, while it is impossible.
      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
      Especially when you consider the tendency to increase the distance of the battle.

      This trend is not particularly. Because the nature of the human eye cannot be altered. Unless if you equip all soldiers with optics. But this, too, at least for mass armies, is hard to believe. For now, at least.
    2. +3
      4 November 2016 16: 31
      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
      And a return of 7,62x51 is required.

      Let them come back, we will give them the Hero of Russia. Then when to fully return. And our returnees must be preventively shot. So as not to return.
  23. +1
    3 November 2016 09: 37
    rjxtufh,
    be that as it may, this is already a subjunctive mood. What was, was. And, even if the PPSh cartridge was worse, it was with him that ours broke the Wehrmacht's neck. Yours faithfully, hi
    1. +4
      3 November 2016 11: 34
      Quote: Mikado
      And, even if the PPSh cartridge was worse, it was with him that ours broke the Wehrmacht's neck. Regards, hi

      Dear, this type has long been known on "Topvar" and has many nicknames like - Flint, Robespierre, etc., etc. And always the song is the same, the incredibly powerful cartridge from Borchard was weakened by the way of shortening the barrel in the Mauser, which then became sporty. You can take a look at this thread, everything will become clear there: https://topwar.ru/78551-ppsh-legenda-velikoy-otec
      hestvennoy-voyny.html
      1. +2
        3 November 2016 11: 43
        Well, I already understood this from the discussion, I just try to conduct the discussion culturally. drinks Thank you!
        1. +3
          3 November 2016 11: 54
          Quote: Mikado
          Thank you!

          Why not help a colleague? Contact!
          1. 0
            3 November 2016 16: 41
            Quote: Timeout
            Why not help a colleague? Contact!

            Can you help me? Materially desirable, as on the topic you will not succeed. There is no qualification, no knowledge, but without this, it will not work.
            Is there any money? Or is it also not?
            1. +4
              8 November 2016 10: 37
              Quote: rjxtufh
              Can you help me? Materially desirable

              Lobotomy? With anesthesia and a scalpel, or just do with a mount? Pry cheaper laughing
        2. 0
          3 November 2016 16: 40
          Quote: Mikado
          Well, I already understood this from the discussion, I just try to conduct the discussion culturally.

          Well, actually, I realized that you are our cultural.
          Goodbye.
          Check with Timeout. He will enlighten you, I hope. Although, rather laugh. This is more about it.
      2. 0
        3 November 2016 16: 38
        Quote: Timeout
        was weakened by the method of shortening the barrel in Mauser, which later became sporty.

        Gee-gee. You know how to make fun. "The cartridge became sporty by shortening the barrel of a pistol."
        You need to tell such things from the stage. For money.
        Quote: Timeout
        You can look at this thread

        I didn’t go and didn’t look at the link. But I couldn’t even come up with such nonsense.
        Fantasy would not be enough. I'm not such a comedian like you.
        1. +4
          4 November 2016 03: 32
          Quote: rjxtufh
          You know how to make fun.

          Of course I can, especially when citing your own words! You have a well-known personality on our resource, regularly in the bathhouse and therefore changing nicknames. Well, the style of communication and the provision of information does not change at all, even for conspiracy.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          "The cartridge became sporty by shortening the barrel of a pistol."

          It’s good that you find your words funny, self-irony is a great thing!
          Especially when such pearls:
          Quote: Fleent
          Weakened. The Borchardt has a trunk of 189 mm, and the Mauser has 140 mm. 74% of Borchard. What is it called? Mauser was not weakened?

          Quote: Fleent
          If we consider only the performance characteristics and without pathos, then the TT is a sports pistol. A PPSh hunting PP. Substandard for the army. Army weapons here do not even smell. And it didn’t smell. Even long before the USSR, in Germany.

          Quote: Fleent
          Mauser C96 in caliber 7,63 mm, this is a converted and weakened hunting Borghardt C93. Borghardt S93 is a 100% hunting weapon, and for this it was created. It was positioned and sold as a traveler’s weapon. Gophers to shoot. Rabbits. Any trifle.

          I wonder when you clone, brains in progression are divided into all? Then here is another clone, also with brain cancer:
          Quote: Robespierre9
          Semi-free-free in some countries, in America, for example, they don’t differ, and I didn’t see the internal structure, but most likely the usual free one is really .. But you have to keep in mind that they are fast and with a double bottom, you may have already copied , but they don’t show you personally, nevertheless, you'd better look at their manual counterparts ..

          Quote: Robespierre9
          No delayed blowback. All the rest is the ideas (and supplements) of various Russian-speaking "Coders" (such as M. Popenker) .. jumping on all sorts of Wikipedia and sticking their noses into various cracks found.



          Quote: rjxtufh
          I didn’t go and didn’t look at the link. But I couldn’t even come up with such nonsense.
          Fantasy would not be enough. I'm not such a comedian like you.

          Well, as you can see, your imagination is definitely not there. At least the syllable is changed, otherwise the whole disguise is in vain. Even changing mailboxes does not save. Do you have all of these in the independent protoukry?
          1. 0
            4 November 2016 10: 31
            Quote: Timeout
            Of course I can, especially when citing your own words!

            Why mine, if these are your words?
            Why did you decide that Robespierre9 and Fleent, it's me.
            I will not comment further, because it's empty. Why should I comment on someone else's comments. You yourself wrote them, you yourself and comment.
            Quote: Timeout
            Quote: rjxtufh
            "The cartridge became sporty by shortening the barrel of a pistol."

            You are a banal dunno-forger. I carefully looked through all my comments on this thread (what the hell is not joking, maybe I put it badly). Of course, I didn’t find anything like it, because I didn’t claim it. And could not argue. Because this is nonsense, bunged by you.
            By the way, I agree with the author of Fleent in the quotations you quoted. He writes very robust things, unlike you. Apparently you are not aware that from shortening the barrel, with the same cartridge, the DE of the weapon decreases (as a rule, but also to certain limits). And also you are completely unaware of the history of the creation and promotion of Borghardt S93.
            Also learn how rabbit, gorilla, and elephant hunting weapons differ. You need, you do not know how I look.
            Learn the materiel, discover a lot for yourself new.
            1. +3
              4 November 2016 15: 13
              Hunting PPSh, sports TT ... These are my words? The fact that you are trying to disown your own words is the understandable body movement of the all-knowing megasuper-super-engineer. Well, be it, only the society knows who you are, Mr. fleent or all the same rjxtufh? Only in the change of nickname the amount does not change, yap and yap ...
              1. 0
                4 November 2016 15: 58
                Quote: Timeout
                Hunting PPSh, sports TT ... These are my words?

                And what else can you call a PP that has the ballistics of a hunting (for small game) weapon? Is that automation, this is not a typical phenomenon for hunting weapons. Army weapons are designed for "game" of a larger size. Therefore, the PPSh in the army has no place. Not because of its design, because of the cartridge used.
                The same applies to the pistol, the bullet of which practically has disgusting terminal ballistics. For sports weapons, this is quite acceptable, for hunting (and army, this is a type of hunting) weapon, no.
                Quote: Timeout
                The fact that you are trying to disown your own words

                I never refused my words. But I don’t need to ascribe too much.
                Quote: Timeout
                omniscient megasuper super engineer

                In fact, my knowledge of small arms is in its infancy. But they are. Your problem is that you don’t have that either. Moreover, even nearby. You do not understand the basics. Those. elementary. And you need to learn this, right from the very beginning.
                Dont be upset. On such forums, 99,9% of users are about the same qualifications as you. Therefore, there are "discussions" of the kind that take place.
                Quote: Timeout
                yap and yap ...

                Well, why are you talking about yourself like that? Self-criticism is good, but there must be a limit to everything ...
                1. +1
                  4 November 2016 21: 58
                  Non-comrade carbine, why did you choose a new nickname so symbolic?
                2. +1
                  5 November 2016 03: 00
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  disgusting terminal ballistics.

                  What time! And when did army munitions become relevant to terminal ballistics? Did you come up with this and the great pedivic prompted?
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  (and army, this is a kind of hunting)

                  Revelation is so revelation, damn it, but I didn’t even know! It is necessary to tell fellow colleagues that they weren’t fighting, but they were hunting and didn’t know that they were not professional officers, but professional hunters. They’ll be surprised!
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  I never refused my words. But I don’t need to ascribe too much.

                  Yeah, you do not refuse, you just turn around. As well as you can not answer the usual questions ... The usual behavior of the troll.
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  are in their infancy.

                  You have a complete lack of knowledge, because in all probability there is simply nowhere to store.
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  You do not understand the basics. Those. elementary.

                  What are the basics? Which originated in your sore imagination? Or inspired by nightmares? For a normal, sane person does not come up with this.
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  And you need to learn this, right from the very beginning.

                  Of course you need to learn, otherwise I still can’t play the guitar. Sadness!
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  Well, why are you talking about yourself like that? Self-criticism is good, but there must be a limit to everything ...

                  The first time I see a self-critical troll. YOU ARE AN AMAZING CHARACTER! But alas, the dining room closes, and feeding stops.
                  1. 0
                    8 November 2016 10: 07
                    Quote: Timeout
                    And when did army munitions become relevant to terminal ballistics?

                    All! No, it's all! What else can be discussed with such enchanting ignoramus!
                    He does not know the most important thing about army (and hunting) weapons, terminal ballistics. And she naively believes that a living creature is approximately equal to a white piece of paper with a black circle at the shooting range.
                    Amazing you are a layman. You do not write, you need to read. A lot and hard.
                    Quote: Timeout
                    damn I didn’t even know

                    So you, as I look, know very little.
                    Quote: Timeout
                    We need to tell fellow employees

                    Tell me, maybe they will teach you. Shoe on the head.
                    Although, they will lie. How do they know about terminal ballistics? This is for you in Tula. Or Izhevsk. Somewhere in the KB area to get used to. There, the probability that they will give you a shoe on the head is much higher. So, act for sure!
                    Quote: Timeout
                    Common Troll Behavior

                    Yeah. Anyone who, unlike you at least knows something, that Troll. Everything is simple and clear.
                    Quote: Timeout
                    For a normal, sane person does not come up with this.

                    Well, really, how does a "normal person" know that besides internal and external there is also terminal ballistics? He knows for sure that the bullet flies strictly until it touches the victim. And then, like on a shooting range, a white piece of paper with a black circle, and that's it.
                    You would have to understand, if you do not know the termalnaya ballistics, then you do not know anything about the army (and hunting) weapons. You can’t be able to drive a car, only knowing how to slow down, but not knowing how to move. So in this case.
                    Quote: Timeout
                    But alas, the dining room closes, and feeding stops.

                    Is your canteen closing in your hospital? Run faster, otherwise you will remain hungry.
  24. +4
    4 November 2016 19: 28
    People, people .... People ... The question was whether or not they fought. Answer - Yes, he fought. And everyone knows how to compare TTX and so on, but everyone draws conclusions for himself. It’s the same as comparing bronze, iron, and steel swords, and they can kill everyone. With a certain skill.
    1. +2
      4 November 2016 21: 54
      You read all the posts above! Yes tommigan is a good PP but for the police, and the cartridges are also police there! But it is expensive and difficult to manufacture! And PPSh and PPS did half-starved women and teenagers! And to compare cartridges is generally meaningless, in one case one is suitable, and in the other case the second! And with a carbine it is useless to discuss, puts a bunch of pictures and numbers in which septs would not figure it out and that's it !!!!!!!
      1. +2
        5 November 2016 15: 44
        It is completely clear to me that PPSh, PPS and Tommy were designed and manufactured in completely different conditions. But there was absolutely no perfect weapon, no, and probably won't be. If you win in one, you will certainly lose in the other. PPSh was developed under the cartridge existing at the moment and simplicity of production. Automation Tommy could only work with a low-power cartridge. Hence all the pros and cons.
  25. +1
    5 November 2016 03: 47
    If about the Volyn, then it is quite a wunderwaffle, a good replacement for the "trench broom". But the number of deliveries is amazing. 137000 units are not hukhry-muhry. Impression, the United States was getting rid of illiquid products. It remains to understand why it was produced in such quantities? They say it was expensive in production, say "lope?" (I will count it myself in the "index of the pre-war sandwich") I'm just wondering who, when and why adopted this narrowly functional canoe? Well, really, the weapon of assault groups, the closest analogue is a flamethrower. Why were they produced in such quantities? That is, 137000 were accepted in Murmansk only under the lend-lease. How many more drowned? (A fond memory of the PQ-17 crews, and, in general, to everyone who did not make it!) And how much is left in the producing country?
    1. +2
      5 November 2016 20: 11
      In 1940-1944 1 Thompson submachine guns of all models were produced: 387 pcs. - M134A562; 511 pcs. - M1928; 1 pcs. - M285A480. Of these, Auto-Ordnance Sogr. manufactured 1 Thompson, and Savage Arms Corr. - 539.
    2. 0
      5 November 2016 21: 49
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Impression, the United States got rid of illiquid products.

      The Thomsons served the U.S. Army until their replacement with the M16A1. And where at that time was the weapon on the cartridge 7,62x25 mm TT?
      1. +2
        9 November 2016 22: 07
        "Thomsons served the US Army until they were replaced by the M16A1" (c)
        served where ?? It is a large army, In what units, types, branches of the army ???

        "And where was the weapon on the cartridge 7,62x25 mm TT at that time?" (from)

        Operation and combat use 1930-1945

        USSR - TT pistols were in service with the Soviet armed forces, and during the Great Patriotic War it was also supplied to Soviet partisans and entered service with foreign military units on the territory of the USSR.
        Finland - TT trophy pistols captured during the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939-1940. and the "continuation war" 1941-1944. were in service with the Finnish army until 1951. In 1959-1960. pistols were sold to the American company Interarmco.

        The third Reich - trophy TTs under the name Pistole 615 (r) entered service with the Wehrmacht, SS and other paramilitaries of Nazi Germany and its satellites.

        Yugoslavia - deliveries for the People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia began on May 15, 1944, and continued until 1947.
        After the end of World War II
        After the war, TT was delivered to the states and movements supported by the USSR (in particular, the armies of the countries of the Warsaw Treaty Organization).

        USSR - pistol production continued until 1952 and was discontinued due to the adoption of the 9-mm Makarov pistol. In the future, the TT was withdrawn from service and gradually replaced by the PM - by the beginning of the 1960s in the Soviet Army (it had remained in service with the rear and auxiliary units for a little longer), by the mid-1970s - by the police, but in the militarized security units preserved in the following time. In the warehouses of the mobilization reserve, TT pistols were stored at least until the beginning of the 1990s.
        also, at least until 2000, TT was used by geological enterprises. According to the regulations of the Mingeo of the USSR, leading workers of geological parties and expeditions could be armed with a pistol.
        Yugoslavia - after the war, Soviet TT remained in service with the Yugoslav People's Army until at least 1968.
        Russia - in December 1998, the TT was officially adopted by the Federal Bailiff Service. At least until July 2002, TT pistols were in service with the private security of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation [18]. In December 2005, he was included in the list of award weapons. As of mid-2006, they were in service with units of FSUE Okhrana of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation, employees of the courier service and collectors.
        Belarus - as of 2002, is armed with legal entities with special statutory tasks.
        Kazakhstan is in the arsenal of departmental guard of railways and collectors of the National Bank of the Republic of Kazakhstan.
        Latvia - in service with the army at least until October 2001.
        Ukraine - in the early 1990s, a certain amount of TT from the warehouses of the mobilization reserve of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine was transferred to the arsenal of some units of the police patrol service, they were also used to train cadets and employees of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine (due to a shortage of cartridges of 9 × 18 mm). As of July 14, 2005, the Ministry of Defense had 95 in storage. TT pistols (000 serviceable and 75 intended for disposal); as of August 000, 20, the Ministry of Defense held 000 TT pistols, another 15 pieces. was kept by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine. It is in service with the state security service. It is also an award weapon. As of June 2011, remained in service with the railway guard and collectors. At the moment, it is limitedly used by the army and volunteer units in the ATO zone.

        Maybe you still have to drop where the TT was made, well, so that you really shut up
        1. +3
          9 November 2016 22: 49
          Plus, and I will add that in Vietnam they were massively used by partisans: Soviet PPSh and PPSh with a TT cartridge, their Chinese clones "Type 50", their own Vietnamese PPSh clones (see http://world.guns.ru/smg/vietn/k- 50m-r.html), and even the French MAC-38s, captured by the Vietnamese in the previous war, were redesigned ... under the "unfit for the army" TT cartridge instead of the native French!

          And the Vietnam War is, by the way, 1964-1975. Tommy ghans by that time were already quite a rarity.

          And the nonsense of this freak "rjxtufh", which he can never confirm except his Authoritative Personal Opinion - to the chickens to laugh. laughing
          1. +2
            9 November 2016 23: 04
            Quote: murriou
            And the nonsense of this freak "rjxtufh", which he can never confirm except his Authoritative Personal Opinion - to the chickens to laugh.

            Do not pay attention, the fact is that until quite recently, PPSh were stored for storage, now they are converted into a carbine, in the factory, of course, and then it goes on sale for permission to cut.
            So the life of the PCA continues into the 21st century. soldier

            Hunting carbine PPSh-O VPO-135 (ZiD), Izhevsk

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        2. 0
          9 November 2016 23: 10
          Quote: Shishiga
          Well, so you really shut up

          Not only that the ignoramus and nifiga does not know, so also hamlo.
          These "ambitious schoolchildren" have already got it. Those who sit at their computers at home and scribble various nonsense, because on the street they are beaten by "evil neighborhood boys".
  26. +2
    7 November 2016 01: 06
    Father, the kingdom of heaven to him, fought on the Volkhov front. And further along the Northwest, across the Baltic states, Poland reached Koenigsberg itself. He tried in the case of Tommy-gan. Our did not like him. According to him, during the shooting it turned out that the bullets from him did not penetrate the sapper blade and the German helmet. I don’t remember the distance of the shelling. At the first opportunity, the weapon was replaced by PPP. To the great pleasure of the fighters.
  27. +1
    7 November 2016 04: 34
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Quote: Shishiga
    "Also the side branch of the M16A1 was the AK-74. Because this is also a product of the M16A1's success." - it's enchanting.

    It's true. Learn the history of weapons and it will open to you.

    And you are not the same eccentric who claimed that the T-54 is a copy of the panther?
    1. +3
      7 November 2016 20: 46
      Will become with him! He also claimed that the T-34 was an infantry tank, not a medium one, and that the whole world thought so, and not one inadequate patient. laughing
      In general, he managed to grind a lot of fun, but pity - I didn’t remember everything crying
      1. 0
        7 November 2016 21: 28
        Quote: murriou
        that the T-34 is an infantry tank, not an average

        T-34/76, this is an infantry tank.
        T-34/85, this is a medium tank.
        And you, my dear, it would be better not to amuse the audience with his clowning. And then it will become a habit, and the evil neighborly boys will take a trifle from your doorway.
        1. +2
          8 November 2016 00: 20
          What do they react to your clowning like that ?!
          Did not know. Sorry crying laughing
          1. 0
            8 November 2016 10: 14
            Quote: murriou
            Did not know.

            This is generally your "FSE". Branded chip.
  28. +1
    7 November 2016 05: 01
    I remember reading Drabkin about the Thompsons in tanks. Each episode with its use turned around the fact that he wedged, stuck and eventually did not shoot.
    1. 0
      7 November 2016 21: 30
      Quote: Zweihander
      Each episode with its use turned around the fact that he wedged, stuck and eventually did not shoot.

      Stupid Americans used the "unfortunate Thompsons" until the 60s. And the "successful PPSh" ordered to live long in the 40s.
      1. +1
        8 November 2016 10: 40
        Quote: rjxtufh
        And the "successful PPSh" ordered to live long in the 40s.

        Is its use classified for you even in Vietnam? And what years are these, you yourself can find out, I hope. The Tommy Ghans did not live up to Vietnam for sure.

        Although, you will now again tell us tales that the M-16 is a weapon of the same class as Tommy Gun, its direct heir and the continuation of its construction, right? laughing
      2. +3
        9 November 2016 22: 21
        After the end of World War II


        After the war, PPSh in significant quantities were delivered abroad, mainly to the countries of the Warsaw Pact and other USSR-friendly states. A significant amount has been shipped to China.

        PCA was used in all conflicts of the second half of the 20th century, and it fights with dignity [source not specified 313 days] even at the beginning of the 21st:

        a certain amount was transferred to the arsenal of the people's police and the army of the GDR, received the name MPi 41

        In 1950-1953, the Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean versions of the PPSh were in service with the Korean People’s Army and were intensively used during the Korean War.

        In the early 1960s, a certain amount of PCA was received by the Cuban government, in April 1961 they were used to repel the landing of the "2506 brigade" in the Gulf of Pigs.

        In the early 1960s, PPSh were in service with the Vietnam People’s Army, they were used in the initial period of the Vietnam War. Later, during the war, they were gradually withdrawn from service of the units of the regular army and transferred to the arsenal of units of the territorial defense forces.

        Angola As of November 1966, some PPSh were in service with the MPLA partisans in Angola

        Jordan As of 1968, a number of PPSh were in service with Palestinian militias in Jordan, used by fighters of local self-defense units in the battle of Karam.

        Afghanistan signed an agreement with the USSR on the acquisition of a batch of Soviet small arms in August 1956, the first PCA was received from the USSR in October 1956, then the PCA was in service with the army units at least until 1980, and then, in the 1980s years, was used by the DRA people's militia units. Also, a significant number of PPSh was in service with student "defense units of the revolution", people's militias and territorial self-defense units that fought with the "dushmans" in 1981 and even in 1986.

        Nicaragua, a number of PCA were in service with the territorial units of the Sandinista People’s Militia ("Militianos") at least until mid-1985.
        Until at least the 1980s, PPSh were used by army and paramilitary units in some African countries.

        Ukraine As of July 14, 2005, the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine had 350 in storage. PPSh; As of August 000, 15, 2011 units remained in the custody of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. PPSh

        Limited use by irregular units in armed conflict in the South-East of Ukraine 2014-2016.

        Belarus: withdrawn from service in December 2005

        Croatia: Used Yugoslav version of the PCA Zastava M49

        Options and Modifications
        USSR - PPSh arr. 1941, with a drum magazine for 71 rounds and a sector sight with ten divisions for firing at a distance of 50 to 500 m. Production of the first batch of 400 pcs. at the factory number 367 began in November 1940, even before the official adoption of the submachine gun into service.
        USSR - PPSh arr. 1942, with a box magazine for 35 rounds, a sight in the form of a rotary rear sight for shooting at 100 and 200 meters, a more reliable magazine latch, a chrome barrel channel surface. The production of sectorial stores was started on February 12, 1942, the first batches were made of 0,5 mm thick sheet steel, but operational experience in the troops revealed their insufficient mechanical strength, and later the shops were made of 1 mm thick sheet steel [32].

        The third Reich is MP.41 (r), a PPSh modification for the 9 × 19 mm Parabellum cartridge, which replaced the magazine barrel and receiver, for using standard box magazines from MP 38/40. Alteration began in 1944, about 10 thousand units were produced in total.

        Iran - since 1942, it was produced for the USSR at the Tehran machine-gun factory (under the name "model 22"), a total of several tens of thousands of units were produced [37], of which 1944 units were actually delivered to the USSR by the end of 9586 [38]. A distinctive feature is the crown mark

        Socialist Republic of Romania Socialist Republic of Romania - produced under the name PM PPȘ Md. 1952.

        The Hungarian People's Republic - in the years 1949–1955 it was produced under the name “7.62mm Géppisztoly 48. Minta”.

        PRC - after the end of World War II, it was produced under the name "Type 50". Minor changes were made to the design and production technology due to adaptation to the characteristics of Chinese industry.

        DPRK - after the end of World War II, it was produced under the name "Model 49".

        Yugoslavia - in 1949-1992, the M49 submachine gun was produced, which had some design differences from the PPSh. Also produced versions of this submachine gun - M49 / 56 and M49 / 57.

        Vietnam - during the Vietnam War of 1964-1973, the PPSh was modified - the K-50 submachine gun.

        Croatia-Jelen is a Croatian handicraft submachine gun assembled in Turopol at the Jelen factory of the same name. Actively used during the war in Croatia and Bosnia. Based on PCA.
  29. +3
    7 November 2016 20: 44
    Quote: rjxtufh
    After WW2, Tommy Ghans were transferred to a reinforced cartridge. And in the end they replaced it with M16A1.

    Yes, yes, yes, also tell us that the Tommy Gun and the M16 are strictly one type of weapon! I even forgot that your clown repertoire also has such a charm! good laughing
    1. 0
      7 November 2016 21: 29
      Quote: murriou
      Yes, yes, yes, also tell us that the Tommy Gun and the M16 are strictly one type of weapon!

      And what is written in Russian is given to you with difficulty? Is this not your native language, or is it just your problem?
      1. +3
        8 November 2016 10: 41
        What are you, on the contrary! Just retelling your hochmochki is not at all the same, you are absolutely inimitable in the arena! Encore, Encore! laughing
  30. +1
    7 November 2016 20: 52
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Physiology of the eye interferes with aiming farther than 400 m on an open sight.

    And the men didn’t know ... For a long time I did not see this clown in the arena, some kind of holiday was right, opening after opening - and each at a Nobel, not less laughing
    1. 0
      7 November 2016 21: 32
      Quote: murriou
      just some kind of celebration, opening after opening

      I see, I see that today in your hospital the head doctor lost a piece of Wi-Fi password.
  31. +2
    7 November 2016 21: 02
    Quote: rjxtufh
    You need to tell such things from the stage. For money.

    Tue you and start telling your tales from the stage. Everything is better than asking professionals for money on the forum for the same thing. lol laughing
    1. 0
      7 November 2016 21: 34
      Quote: murriou
      Tue you and start telling your tales from the stage.

      No problems. Are you asking for me in the Imressario? Has it been "temporarily unemployed" for 10 years?
  32. +1
    10 November 2016 00: 51
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Quote: Forest
    And for the long-range battle, you're right, the PPSh is many times better.

    There is nothing in the PCA that would make him better than Tommy-gan. Well, that’s nothing at all. Even the MP40, not the best PP, was better than the PCA.
    The reason for this is completely unsuitable for the army cartridge TT. From him and TT was ridiculous and miserable, at the same time.


    yes really .. my friend !? What planet are you from? Bother to read the TTX at least laughing It was not for nothing that the PPSh were called "Trench Broom" ... and it was not for nothing that even the Fritzes used them willingly. Like our SVT. For their "machine-pistol" -40 were full of ... rams. As for the lethality, for the range of actual fire, for the lethality and reliability! Learning the mathematical part! Another sofa eksperD who outplayed in SOD
    1. 0
      10 November 2016 02: 43
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      What planet are you from?

      Yes, all the same. With a competent.
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      Bother to read the TTX at least laughing

      Yes, I understand, you were joking.
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      No wonder the PPSh was called "Trench Broom"

      And what, the battles were only in the trenches? And how to get out? What are the fucking "machine gunners"?
      Kranty. Germans tidy them up from their Mausers and MGs from 400-450 m. Without losses for themselves.
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      and it’s not for nothing that the Fritz willingly used them.

      The Germans NEVER officially used them. Officially they used PPSh-Luger. Those. PPSh under the cartridge with a caliber of 9 mm. Moreover, there were modifications under the disk, but there were, under the horn from the MP40. The adapter was removable.
      Such PPSh, converted to a single fire, are now also sold as hunting carbines. Trophy or remake, I don’t know.
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      Like our SVT.

      So what? They also used the royal three-rulers. And what, from this she became a good rifle?
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      For their "machine-pistol" -40 were full of ...

      You will tell the boys in the sandbox. They are gullible, believe.
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      As in slaughter, in range of actual fire, in slaughter and reliability!

      Another bubo boo watching a TV.
      DEP MP40 - 60 m. DEP PPSh - 35 m. DEP pistol Walter P38 - 35 m. That's all, there is nothing to talk about further.
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      Learn the mat.chast!

      Right now and get started.
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      Another couch expert

      Very nice, and my name is rjxtufh.
      1. +1
        28 November 2016 23: 14
        By the way, here’s the verdict of experts, I ask everyone to familiarize themselves, compare and draw conclusions. The know-it-all can not worry, about my mental abilities in my opinion, not only I have already concluded.
        taken here https://weapon.temadnya.com/1032548124865072119/p
        orazhayuschie-svojstva-pul /? utm_source = mailru & utm
        _medium = email & utm_campaign = daily & utm_content = titl
        e

  33. Owl
    0
    15 December 2016 17: 33
    In September-October 1991, at the head of a platoon of soldiers, he worked at the district warehouses of the RAV, most likely in Pavlovsky Posad, saw there in boxes, in grease, Lendleigh submachine guns, pistols and rifles. Pistols and submachine guns came with tanks, carbines - with trucks, Colt1911 pistols - with aircraft. During the OVD-NATO confrontation, these samples were stored in warehouses in the western military districts, probably for "work" during a special period in the adjacent territory. With the collapse of the OVD, some of the weapons were transported to the inner districts.
  34. 0
    12 March 2017 21: 38
    The article is good. On the application of the Thompson in the Red Army, I had previously read. There was even an article where there was a photograph of how a Red Army man was conducting classes on the materiel of Thompson with schoolchildren. Too bad I didn’t save the address. And in the comments he delighted with his impenetrable stupidity "rjxtufh", aka "stoker." What is he? Really lives in parallel reality?
  35. 0
    April 25 2017 10: 11
    repeat This article has already been on the site.

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