Time which was not

72
Time which was notAs a child, I heard from my father about that cruel, tragic finale in Sevastopol, the 35 coastal battery area and Cape Chersonese, at the final stage of the defense in early July of the 1942 year. He, a young lieutenant, an aviation mechanic of the Black Sea Fleet air force, managed to survive in that “human meat grinder”. He returned and freed his native Sevastopol from the Nazis in May 1944.

My father did not like to talk about the war, but I continued to collect materials about the last days of the defense, and fate gave me an unexpected gift. Among the documents of the State Archive of Sevastopol were “Memories of a participant in the defense of Sevastopol I.A. Bazhanov about the evacuation of the group of 2 air force employees on July 1942 from the besieged Sevastopol ”, where, as an eyewitness, he describes history with a seaplane that almost completely coincided with my childhood memories.



Now it is possible to more reliably, comparing the facts from other sources, to present in details how everything was in reality. Bazhanov gives the names, and among them the name of my father. “... Among the evacuees were: Major Pustylnikov, Art. Technical Lieutenant Stepanchenko, Art. Lieutenant Medvedev, captain Polovinko, captain Krutko, captain Lyanev, art. Lieutenant Fedorov and others. There were girls and workers from the medical unit: Nina Legenchenko, Fira Golberg, Riva Kayfman, Dusya ... ”The commander of the crew of the GTS amphibious aircraft (“ Catalina ”) was Captain Malakhov, the co-pilot - Art. Lieutenant Kovalev. When boarding the plane, the 32 turned out to be a man, “... for the GTS, this is a big overload”, but to remain meant to die, and captain Malakhov decided to take everyone. After a dangerous flight and forced landing on the water on the open sea, after repeated raids by enemy aircraft that dropped 19 bombs on a helpless amphibious aircraft, they finally reached Novorossiysk - the Shallot mine sweeper under the command of Lieutenant-Commander Gerngross saved everyone .

Thus, my childhood memories unexpectedly received documentary evidence. And yet somewhere, deep down, a aching feeling of bitterness and resentment for our fathers and grandfathers smoldered. I think that not only I, but not one generation of Sevastopol residents wondered: “Couldn’t it be possible to organize evacuation, to avoid mass death and shameful captivity of tens of thousands of heroic defenders of our city?”

WAITING FOR RESCUE

In the last days of defense, people pressed to the sea, fighters and commanders, civilians, waited in vain for the “squadron” as the only hope for salvation. Desperate, many shot. They tried to escape on improvised rafts, planks, swam into the sea, sank. With boats, airplanes and submarines from 1 through 10 in July, it was possible to take part of the wounded to the Caucasus and, with the permission of the Bid, on the night of 1 in July, the command of the Sevastopol Defense Region (COP), the party leadership and the city leadership. Total 1726 people. Major-General P.G. was left to lead the defense. Novikov, his assistant on maritime issues (organization of evacuation) - captain 3 rank Ilyichev. Remaining 78 230 fighters and commanders, not including civilians. Most of them were injured. But the evacuation did not take place. They were all captured or killed with weapons in hand.

Why did this happen? After all, the same military leaders, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, planned and more than successfully carried out the evacuation of the defenders of Odessa from October 1 to October 15, 1941. It was exported: 86 thousand military personnel with weapons, 5941 wounded, 570 guns, 938 vehicles, 34 tank, 22 aircraft and 15 thousand civilians. Only on the last night, in ten hours, “under the nose” of the Germans, four divisions with heavy weapons (38 thousand people) were evacuated from their positions. After the defeat of the Crimean Front in May 1942, Oktyabrsky, having pulled all boats, minesweepers, tugboats, barges, longboats to evacuate the three armies from the nearest bases, transported more than 15 thousand people from Kerch to Taman from May 20 to 130 (42 324 wounded, 14 thousand civilians), aircraft, Katyusha guns, vehicles, and 838 tons of cargo. In conditions of fierce opposition from the Germans, using the naval for cover Aviation from the Caucasian airfields. The instructions of the Supreme High Command for evacuation were fulfilled. The military carry out orders. Without an order, evacuation is not possible.

Then, in the spring of 1942, the situation on the fronts was critical. The defeat at Rzhev and Vyazma, the defeat of our troops near Kharkov, the Wehrmacht unimpeded offensive against Stalingrad and the North Caucasus. To realize the whole tragedy of the current situation, when the fate of our people “hung in the balance,” it is enough to read thoughtfully the order of NKO No. 227, known as “Not one step back!”. It was necessary to gain time at any cost, delay the German offensive, prevent the enemy from seizing Baku and Grozny (oil). Here, in Sevastopol, parts of the Wehrmacht were “milled”, the fate of Stalingrad was decided, the foundations of the Great Fracture were laid in World War II.

EVACUATION AND NOT THOUGHT

Now, when materials from our and German archives are available, one can compare losses in the last days of defense, ours in 1942 and German in 1944, as well as evacuation issues. It is clear that the question of our evacuation was not even considered in advance. Moreover, the directive of the Military Council of the North Caucasus Front of May 28 1942 / 00201 / op was categorically stated: “1. Warn all command, Red Army and Red Navy personnel that Sevastopol should be withheld at all costs. There will be no crossing to the Caucasian coast ... 3. In the struggle against alarmists and cowards, do not stop at the most decisive measures. ”

Five days before the start of the third offensive (2 – 6 of June), the Germans began a massive aviation and fire training, conducting methodical, corrected artillery fire. These days, the Luftwaffe planes made more sorties than during the entire previous seven-month defense period (3069 sorties), dropped tons of bombs on the city 2264. And at dawn 7 June 1942, the Germans launched an offensive on the entire front of the CPF, periodically changing the direction of the main attack, trying to mislead our command. Bloody battles ensued, often turning into hand-to-hand combat. They fought for every inch of land, for every pillbox, for each trench. The frontiers of defense several times passed from hand to hand.

After five days of intense, exhausting battles, the German offensive began to run out of steam. The Germans made 1070 combat missions, dropped 1000 tons of bombs, lost 10 people killed and wounded. In individual units, losses were up to 300%. In the same company in the evening there were only 60 soldiers and 8 officer. A critical situation evolved with ammunition. According to V. von Richthofen himself, the commander of the 1-th Luftwaffe Air Corps, he only had a day and a half of intensive bombing. The situation with aviation gas was no better. As Manstein, the commander of the Wehrmacht's 8 army in the Crimea, wrote, “the fate of the offensive these days seemed to hang in the balance.”

On June 12, the CPM command received a welcome telegram from Supreme Commander IV. Stalin: “... The selfless struggle of Sevastopol serves as an example of heroism for the entire Red Army and the Soviet people. I am confident that the glorious defenders of Sevastopol will fulfill their duty to the Motherland with honor. ” It seemed that the advantage of forces would be on our side.

Could the commander of the SOR F.S. Oktyabrsky raise the issue of planning the evacuation of troops? After the war, the commander-in-chief of the Navy N.G. Kuznetsov will write that until the last moment there was confidence that Sevastopol could be held. “... In such a grandiose battle that took place for Sevastopol, no one could foresee when a critical situation would arise. The order of the Headquarters, the entire course of the military situation of those days on the fronts demanded to fight in Sevastopol to the last opportunity, and not think about evacuation. Otherwise, Sevastopol would not have played its big role in the struggle for the Caucasus and, indirectly, for Stalingrad. Manstein's army would not have suffered such losses and would have been transferred earlier to a new important direction. When the Germans moved to the last lines of the Sevastopol residents on Cape Chersonesos and the entire water area began to be shot through, it became impossible to send transports or warships there ... And least of all, the local command should be blamed for lack of foresight, which was instructed to fight to the last possible ... in an atmosphere of intense fighting, they could not engage in the development of an evacuation plan. All their attention was focused on repelling enemy attacks. " And further: “... no other authority should have taken care of the defenders of Sevastopol in the same way as the Main Naval Headquarters under the leadership of the People's Commissar ... nothing absolves us from responsibility, naval leaders in Moscow ".

By June 20, the Germans dropped more than 15 thousand tons of bombs on the city, having exhausted all their reserves. Instead of bombs from the aircraft began to dump rails, barrels, locomotive wheels. The assault could have choked. But the Germans received reinforcements (three infantry regiments and the 46 division from the Kerch Peninsula) and managed to give 6 thousands of tons of bombs they had captured in the warehouses of the Crimean Front defeated. The superiority was on the side of the enemy. On the night from 28 to 29 June, the fascists secretly crossed over to the southern coast of the Sevastopol Bay with the help of two divisions (22 and 24 infantry divisions) and were in the rear of our troops. The offensive of the Germans from the front did not weaken. The defense of the outer frontier has lost all meaning. The Germans did not enter street battles, artillery and aircraft were active. They dropped leaflets, small incendiary and heavy high-explosive bombs, methodically destroying the burning city. Later, Manstein would write: "In general, in the 2 World War I, the Germans never achieved such a massive use of artillery as in the attack on Sevastopol." On June 29, in the 22 hours, the command of the CPF and the Maritime Army was transferred to the 35 coastal battery (BB), a reserve fleet command post. There, with the battles, our units also began to depart.

UNDERTAKABLE CIRCUMSTANCES

Was it possible to evacuate in principle in the blockade from the sea and from the air, under continuous shelling and bombing attacks, with full air domination of enemy aircraft?

The range of our aviation from the airfields of the Caucasus and Kuban did not allow it to be used for air cover. For the next five days, 450 – 500 of the planes of 8’s General Von Richthofen’s air corps continuously, day and night, bombed the city. In the air, replacing each other, were simultaneously 30 – 60 of enemy aircraft. It was possible to load onto boats only at night, and summer nights were short, but the Germans bombed at night, using lighting aerial bombs. A huge mass of people (about 80 thousand people) accumulated on a narrow strip - just 900 – 500 meters - an unequipped coast, near 35-nd BB and Chersonesus. There were also civilians in the city, in the hope of planned (rumored) evacuation. The Germans from Konstantinovsky ravelin, from the other side of the Sevastopol bay, illuminated the runway of the Chersonesus airfield with a searchlight. Almost every bomb, every shell found its victim. It was unbearable summer heat. There was a persistent, deadly smell in the air. Swarmed swarms of flies. There was almost no food. But most of all, people suffered from thirst. Many tried to drink sea water, they immediately vomited. They saved themselves by drinking their own urine (whoever it was) by filtering it through rags. German artillery swept the entire water space, the approach of the courts was impossible. The time for evacuation was irretrievably missed. This was understood both at the Stavka VG and at the headquarters of the North Caucasus Front, but they did everything that was really possible in that difficult, critical situation.

The Budenny directive was communicators 35 of the BB received in 22 hours. 30 minutes 30 June. “1. By order of the Stavka Oktyabrsky, Kulakovu urgently depart for Novorossiysk to organize the removal of the wounded, troops and valuables from Sevastopol. 2. The commander of the CPR remains Major General Petrov. To help him highlight the commander of the landing base as an assistant with the naval headquarters. 3. To Major General Petrov, immediately develop a plan for consistent withdrawal to the places of loading of the wounded and the units allocated for transfer in the first place. The remnants of the troops to lead a stubborn defense, on which the success of the export depends. 4. Anything that cannot be exported is subject to unconditional destruction. 5. Air Force SOR are up to the limit of possibility, after which they fly to Caucasian airfields. ”

While the ciphering was processed and searched for General Petrov, he and his headquarters were already at sea, on the submarine U-209. Petrov tried to shoot himself. Surrounding did not give, took the gun. At the same time, the headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet in Novorossiysk (Rear Admiral Eliseev) received the instruction: “1. All the MOs in service, submarines, patrol boats and high-speed minesweepers are consistently sent to Sevastopol for the removal of the wounded, soldiers and documents. 2. Before arriving in Novorossiysk, the organization is your responsibility. 3. By passing flights, deliver the ammunition necessary for the defenders to cover the export. Sending replenishment stop. 4. For the entire time of the operation to remove the Black Sea Fleet air forces, it is necessary to maximally strengthen the strikes at enemy airfields and the port of Yalta, from which the blockade forces act.

July 1 to 23 h. 45 min. On 35, the BB received a telegram from Novorossiysk: “... Keep the battery and Chersonesos. I will send ships. October". Then the communications workers destroyed ciphers, codes and equipment. Communication with the Caucasus has been lost. Our units, being in complete blockade, pressed by the Germans to the sea, occupying a perimeter defense, from the last forces repulsed attacks at the cost of great losses. In 00 h. 35 min. 2 July on the orders of the command, shooting the last shells and idle charges, was blown up 1-I tower 35-th BB, in 1 h. 10 min. blown up the 2-i tower. People were waiting for the arrival of ships as the last hope for salvation.

Played a negative role and weather conditions. So, from the 12 planes of the air forces of the Black Sea Fleet that departed from the Caucasus on the night from 1 to 2 of July, the 10 ICBMs could not splash down. There was a big reel. The planes flew up to the airfield in full blackout mode, but there was no conditional signal for landing - the person on duty at the airfield was seriously wounded by another projectile break, - and the planes turned back. At the last moment, the commander of the 12 air base, Major V.I. The dummy gave for a second a searchlight beam to the zenith, in the direction of the departing aircraft. Two managed to return and sit in the reed bay in the light of the moon, almost blindly, under the nose of the Germans. The twin-engine Chayka transport aircraft (commander captain Naumov) picked up a 40 man, GTS-9 Catalina (commander captain Malakhov) was a 32 man, of which 16 were wounded and medical workers led by chief military doctor 2 rank Korneev, and XNUM military personnel Air Force Black Sea Fleet. In this plane was my father.

In the area of ​​Yalta and Foros, our ships got into the combat zone of the Italian torpedo boats (Mokkagata group). In the final, it was the Italians of July 9 who carried out the sweeping of the 35 BB casemates and the capture of her last defenders. There is a version that the Abwehr agent KG-15 (Sergey Tarov) who is among our fighters helped them from the inside.

AGENTS SOWED PANIKA

On July 4, Budyonny, at the direction of the Supreme Command Headquarters, sent a telegram to the Military Council of the Black Sea Fleet: “There are still many separate groups of fighters and commanders on the coast of the CPA who continue to resist the enemy. It is necessary to take all measures for their evacuation by sending small vessels and sea planes. The motivation of sailors and pilots of the impossibility of approaching the coast because of the waves is incorrect, you can pick up people, not approaching the coast, take them aboard in 500 – 1000 m from the coast ”.

But the Germans have already blocked all approaches to the coast from land, from the air and from the sea. July 2 minesweepers No. 15 and No. 16, patrol boats No. 015, No. 052, No. 078, submarines D-4 and W-215 did not reach Sevastopol. Attacked by airplanes and torpedo boats, after being damaged, they were forced to return to the Caucasus. Two boats, SKA-014 and SKA-0105, in the area of ​​Sarych metro station, discovered our boat SKA-029, which was fighting for several hours from enemy aircraft. From 21, the crew members of the 12 boat were killed and 5 injured, but continued to fight. The injured were removed from the damaged SKA-209 and the boat was brought in tow to Novorossiysk. And there were many such episodes.

All attempts to break into the mountains to the partisans were not successful. Until July 12, our fighters, in groups and alone, half-dead from thirst and hunger, from wounds and fatigue, almost with their bare hands, butts, knives, stones, fought against enemies, preferring to die in battle.

The situation was also aggravated by the active work of German agents. There was no solid front line from June 29, when the Nazis secretly crossed the night to the south side of the Sevastopol Bay and attacked our defenses from the rear. German agents dressed in civilian clothes or Red Army uniforms who speak Russian fluently and immaculately (former immigrants, Germanized Russians, defectors) who had received special training in the Brandenburg Special Purpose Regiment from the 6 of the 2 Battalion of this regiment, together with the retreating units and the population moved to the area 35 th BB and m. Chersonese. The Germans, knowing that in the days of defense, the replenishment was mainly from the fighters mobilized in the Caucasus, they additionally used the special Abwehr RDG “Tamara” formed from among Georgian emigrants who know Georgian and other Caucasian languages. Enemy agents, rubbing into trust, sowed panic, defeatism, hostility to the command, called on the commanders and commissars to shoot in the back, to pass to the Germans, guaranteeing life and rations. They were identified by conversations, by well-fed people, by clean linen and killed on the spot. But apparently not always. Until now, it is not clear who gave signals from different places of the coast with a flashlight, Morse code, semaphore unsigned, causing confusion, confusing boat commanders approaching the coast in blackout, in search of places for loading the wounded and the remaining fighters.

LIBERATION OF SEVASTOPOL

How did the Germans 8 – 12 May 1944 of the year? The command of the 17 Army in advance, since November 1943 of the year, has developed options for the possible evacuation of troops, by sea and by air. In accordance with the evacuation plans: “Rutherboot” (rowing boat), “Gleyterboot” (glider) and “Adler” (eagle) - in the Streletskaya, Round (Omega), Kamyshevoy, Kozachaya bays and in the municipality of Chersonesus were equipped with 56 berths . There was a sufficient number of motoboats, BDB and boats. In the ports of Romania, 190 of Romanian and German transports, civilian and military, were on the alert. There was their German practicality, organization, and the praised German order. It was clearly defined - when, where, from which pier, which military unit and which motobot, barge or boat should load. Large vessels had to wait on the high seas, beyond the reach of our artillery. But Hitler demanded "not to depart, to keep every trench, every funnel, every trench" and allowed the evacuation of only 9 in May, when our units already took Sapun-gora and entered the city.

Time to evacuate was lost. It turned out the same "human meat grinder." Only ours fought to the last, almost barehanded, without food and without water, for almost two weeks, and the Germans, having weapons and ammunition in abundance, surrendered as soon as it became clear that the evacuation was breaking down. Only the SS, covering the evacuation on the m. Chersonese, about 750 people, fiercely resisted, tried to go to sea on rafts and inflatable boats and were destroyed.

It becomes obvious that without reliable, effective air cover, to organize evacuation in those specific conditions of active fire resistance, blocking from the air and the sea was almost impossible. In 1944, the Germans lost the Crimean airfields in the same way as ours in 1941. Under the blows of our troops, panic reigned, chaos and total confusion. According to the testimony of the former chief of staff of the German Navy on the Black Sea, G. Konradi, “on the night of May 11, panic began on the quays. Places on ships were taken to the battle. The vessels were forced to roll off without completing the loading, because otherwise they could have sunk. ” Command 17-th army was evacuated in the first place, leaving his troops. Nevertheless, the army sued the German Navy, accusing them of the tragedy of the 17 Army. The fleet also referred to “large losses of vehicles as a result of torpedo attacks, artillery attacks and enemy air strikes”.

As a result, the Germans lost more than 35 thousand people killed and 20 24 people captured only on land, in the area of ​​361 and BB. Chersonesos. Killed at sea about 8100 Germans. The number of missing is not precisely determined. Of the five generals of the 17 Army, only two were rescued, two surrendered, and the corpse of another was found among the dead.

It should be borne in mind that the Germans left for the defense of the fortress a minimum number of troops. A total of May 3 was about 64 700 Germans and Romanians. Most of the troops of the 17 Army, “unnecessary for battle directly” —the rear, Romanian units, prisoners of war, “Hiwi” and the civilian population (as a cover) —was evacuated earlier, from April 8 to April 5, as 1944. Only our troops broke through the German defenses on the Crimean isthmus. During the period of evacuation of the German-Romanian troops from the Crimea, the ships and aircraft of the Black Sea Fleet sunk: 69 transports, 56 BDB, 2 MO, 2 gunboats, 3 TRSch, 27 other patrol boats and 32 of other types of vessel. Total 191 ship. Losses - more than 42 thousand Romanian and German soldiers and officers.

With full supremacy in the air of German aviation in July 1942, the same fate awaited the ships of the Black Sea Fleet. No wonder the Germans called the plan for the third assault on Sevastopol "Sturgeon Fishing". Sanitary transport “Armenia”, which transported medical personnel of hospitals and wounded, more than 6 thousand people, Santransport “Svaneti”, “Abkhazia”, “Georgia”, ship “Vasily Chapaev”, tanker “Mikhail Gromov”, cruiser "Chervona Ukraine", destroyers "Free", "Capable", "Impeccable", "Merciless", leaders "Tashkent" and "Kharkov". And this is not a complete list of losses only from airstrikes. Subsequently, the Stavka banned the use of large ships without reliable air cover.

ON THE ADMIRAL OF OCTOBER

It was customary to blame Ukraine’s “Square” Ukraine for our military leadership — the Supreme Command headquarters, the commander of the CPA, and Admiral F.S. October. It was alleged that the “fighters were deceived”, the command “frightened and shamefully fled”, leaving their units, and the warships, “rusty iron, smelt of needles,” regretted leaving them to defend in the ports of the Caucasus. A hate virus to the Soviet past was introduced into the public consciousness. The real culprit of the death of the Maritime Army - E. von Manstein was replaced by the imaginary - Admiral F.S. October. Such publications were sold even on the territory of the museum complex “35-I coastal battery”.

Of course, from the point of view of civil morality, our command was unsuitable for us to leave our troops. But the war has its own laws, cruel, ruthless, based on military expediency, to achieve the main ultimate goal - Victory. "In war as in war." It takes 30 – 35 years to train a division commander, and a few months to train a fighter. In combat, the fighter breast closes his commander. So says the Charter (Ch. 1 Art. 1 UVS USSR Armed Forces). And in war it is normal. So it was under Suvorov, and under Kutuzov, and under Ushakov. So it was in World War II.

War forces you to think differently. Assume that Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorye Army and the Socialist Party, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units “to the last possible”. All high command heroically died or would be taken prisoner. It was only beneficial to our enemies. October was not only the commander of the CPF, but also the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, and this, in fact, the fleet itself, warships and ships. This is a large and complex fleet economy. Five to seven naval bases, almost as many as in the Baltic and the Northern Fleet together, are naval aviation (VVS of the Black Sea Fleet). Ship repair enterprises, medical and health services (treatment of the wounded), ammunition depots (projectiles, bombs, mines, torpedoes, ammunition), fleet technical management, IIA, hydrography, etc., which Oktyabrsky took in time from Sevastopol to the Caucasus as instructed October 1941 of the year. With the loss of Sevastopol, the story did not end. There were still years ahead of a bloody, merciless war in which anyone could die, both an admiral and a private. But each has its own destiny ...

Philip Sergeevich commanded the Black Sea Fleet in a very difficult time - from 1939 to 1948 a year. Stalin "rented" him and appointed him again. He was the 1 Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Navy of the USSR, the Head of the ChVVMU them. P.S. Nakhimov, inspector-adviser of the USSR Ministry of Defense, deputy of the USSR Supreme Soviet. Despite a serious illness, I could not imagine myself outside the fleet, until the end I remained in the ranks. At the request of veterans only in 1958, he became the Hero of the Soviet Union. His name is a warship, a training detachment of the Navy, the streets in Sevastopol, in the city of Chisinau and in the city of Staritsa, Tver region. He is an honorary citizen of the hero-city of Sevastopol.

By thoughtlessness or because of the vain desire to propiarize, individual historians continue to discover the “white spots” of the dark pages of our “terrible” past, snatching out individual facts, without taking into account the root causes and real events of that time, and young people take it all at face value. Reproaching the admiral with betrayal (he left the fighters, ran off cowardly), in dishonesty, these “not smelling gunpowder” so-called “critics”, having waited for a person to go to another world, accuse him of all mortal sins, knowing that he can no longer adequately answer.

Veterans, with rare exceptions, did not consider themselves to be "abandoned, betrayed, deceived." The foreman of the 1 article Smirnov, who was captured on the metro station Khersones, wrote after the war: "... they did not betray us, but they could not save us." The question was more technical: why couldn’t everyone be evacuated? One historian "from infantry", "an expert" of naval traditions, accused the admiral of having broken the tradition, "did not leave the ship last."

The whole structure of naval life, the combat and daily organization, the duties of officials, the rules of serving for more than 300 years are not determined by traditions, but by the ship’s charter and other statutory documents, starting with the five-volume “Charter of the Sea” Peter I. This is the basis, that matrix from which the naval traditions originated, and not vice versa. There are in the charter and duties of the ship commander at the time of the accident (article 166). The last item is highlighted: "The commander leaves the ship last." But before this, it is clearly stated that “the commander decides to leave the ship with personnel”. The commander on the ship and the "king" and "god." He is given the right to make decisions independently. And the means of salvation are at hand, on the ship. He does not need to collect the Military Council, request permission from the Bet, “launch the mechanism” of staff planning. And all this takes time - time that was not there.
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  1. +12
    5 November 2016 08: 11
    The foreman of the 1st article Smirnov, who was captured on the metro Chersonese, wrote after the war: "... they did not betray us, but they could not save us." ...That says it all...
  2. +18
    5 November 2016 08: 19
    Out of folly or because of the vain desire for publicity, individual historians continue to discover the “white spots of dark pages” of our “terrible” past, grabbing individual facts without taking into account the root causes and real events of that time, and young people take all this at face value.

    Bravo, I bow to the author! Honestly, having read the article I was even surprised! Nowadays, when the heroic past is being poured with mud, it is considered a good form and such an article !!! good Now "connoisseurs of history" are crawling out, especially under the Ukrainian flag ...
    2-0 2 November 2016 10: 37
    For once, Aleksander wrote as it should!
    I HATE this juvenile of Oktyabrsky lice with fierce hatred so that it has the largest and red-hot frying pan. If only he would shoot himself, it wouldn’t be such a shame.

    and they will prove to everyone that no one knows the history of the Great Patriotic War better than them. Well, this is not the worst thing, the scary thing is that the Russians are doing this nonsense, it is especially offensive when a comrade on the avatar has a red-banner naval flag and at the same time, a comrade voluntarily or involuntarily begins to throw feces in our memory! According to the memoirs of my father, a war veteran, they ate all and dead horseflesh (not from the fact that the bastards of the quartermaster didn’t deliver food on time, but from the fact that the slutty and even comfront moved on the tractor) and the burka from the dead Germans was torn off not because the foreman drank his boots, but because women and children in the rear did not have time to felts and part of the fighters were wrapped in boots with windings. Not once, hear NOT ONCE the man who passed the Crimea and the Eye did not blame the command!
    the ambulance transport Armenia was killed, transporting the medical staff of hospitals and the wounded, more than 6 thousand people, the transport ships Svaneti, Abkhazia, Georgia, the ship Vasily Chapaev, the tanker Mikhail Gromov, the cruiser Chervona Ukraine, destroyers “Free”, “Capable”, “Flawless”, “Merciless”, leaders “Tashkent” and “Kharkov”

    Bugler "Occurrence" of peakless caps down !!! soldier
    1. +8
      5 November 2016 13: 03
      Quote: Serg65
      Honestly, having read the article I was even surprised! Nowadays, when the heroic past is being poured with mud, it is considered good form and such an article !!!

      The author writes:
      But the war has its own laws, cruel, ruthless, proceeding from military expediency. It takes 30 – 35 years to train a division commander, and several months to train a soldier. A war forces one to think differently. Suppose, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorsky Army and the COF, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units "to the last opportunity". The entire high command heroically perished or would be captured. It was beneficial only to our enemies.


      And to prepare for the replacement of evacuated party activists, their relatives, NKVD-shnikov, exported from the city, would also need 35 years of preparation?
      On the night of 28 on 29 June, the Nazis covertly crossed the southern coast of the Sevastopol Bay by the forces of two divisions (22 and 24 infantry divisions) and ended up in the rear of our troops.

      "secretly"? - on a piece of land 10 * 10 km there are about 90 thousand troops, thousands of residents and no one noticed? The Nazis crossed in rubber boats, under a smoke screen and only with small arms. They were opposed by tanks, guns and mortars, thousands of soldiers, but no one bothered to organize their dumping into the water. But the October one took care of organizing his flight, sending a false telegram "about street fighting and the apathy of the troops." And this instead of organizing a rebuff in the hardest moments! By the way, the author claims that there are no street fights.

      The signalmen of the 35 BB received the Budenny Directive in 22 hours, 30 minutes. 30 June. While the encryption was processed and searched for General Petrov, he and his headquarters were already at sea, on the U-Submarine 209 \

      There is evidence that he was on the shore until 1 night, waiting for the adjutant son and then only evacuated, i.e. he knew the order of his appointment as commander.

      Manoshin writes: "The recall of the senior command staff of the army probably still came with 29 June evenings first from departments, directorates, headquarters services of the army and navy, which, in the conditions of a breakthrough of the front, were relocated to the area of ​​the 35 coastal battery. ". That is, the decapitation of the army began even BEFORE the October telegram to Stavka ..

      My opinion: yes, it was impossible to evacuate the garrison. But it was impossible to abandon the heroes of Svastopol without command, which immediately caused a panic and, accordingly, huge and meaningless victims, abandonment of positions. Military people needed a clear order and organization. And after exhausting all the possibilities for resistance, to declare that they have fulfilled their duty to the end and there will be nothing later for their captivity, it is not their fault.

      After all, there were surprising examples in chaos: Colonel Rubtsov’s regiment, which did not lose control and had a wonderful fight.

      “In this sense, the words of the border guard, commander of the radio platoon of the 456th border regiment of the 109th rifle division of senior lieutenant N.I. Golovko: “I believe that we could still hold the defense if the command, which should have been the last to leave, did not flinch!”
      Opinions of surviving defenders collected by Colonel Piskunov: “The general mood was like that - they surrendered us. We would still fight and fight. I watched people. After all, many people cried from resentment and bitterness that their life ended so ingloriously, or rather, military service ... ”
      I think that the October and Petrov acted both unprofessionally and cowardly.
      1. +7
        5 November 2016 13: 15
        Quote: Aleksander
        Yes, it was impossible to evacuate the garrison. But it was impossible to abandon the heroes of Svastopol without command, which immediately caused panic and, accordingly, huge and meaningless victims, abandonment of positions. Military people needed a clear order and organization. And after exhausting all the possibilities for resistance, to declare that they have fulfilled their duty to the end and there will be nothing later for their captivity, it is not their fault.

        Blah blah blah, what position did you occupy as a sofa expert in the company-clerk of the company? No more?
        That's why your opinion is worth exactly as much as NOTHING worth it.
        Horror stories about captivity and so on, again, blah blah blah, leave for those like you, the filter camps were in any army in the world, all those who left the encirclement were checked one way or another, and the vast majority returned either to the army or to other structures of the warring country.
        As an example, do not bring art conjectures like a filmets about a certain Major Pugachev, the realities are completely different.
        1. +5
          5 November 2016 21: 13
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          Blah blah blah, what position did you occupy as a sofa expert in the company-clerk of the company? Not more? That's why your opinion is worth exactly as much as NOTHING worth anything. Horror stories about captivity and stuff, again blah blah blah, leave it for people like you The filter camps were in any army in the world, all those who came out of the encirclement were checked one way or another, and the absolute majority returned either to the army or to other structures of the warring country. As an example, do not bring art speculation like a movie star about a certain Major Pugachev, the realities are completely different.


          You surprised again! Yes just amazingly, they wrote so much and at the same time managed not express not a single thought

          HOW DO YOU DO IT ?!
          belay
          1. +1
            5 November 2016 21: 22
            Quote: Aleksander
            HOW DO YOU DO IT ?!

            Indeed, how do you manage to carry such nonsense always and everywhere?
      2. +1
        6 November 2016 07: 55
        As always, our Moldovan "general" can confirm his loud statements and far-reaching conclusions only with his personal Especially Authoritative Opinion? lol
      3. +1
        7 November 2016 22: 11
        In wartime, the party asset belongs to the high command and made a significant contribution to the defense of the fortress, organizing the transfer of the city's enterprises to the production of military products. By the way, not all of the party activists managed to evacuate. Petrov was already waiting for his son on the Shch-209 square, and he arrived by boat with the last batch. I explain what "secretly" means. This is when the development. diversion. a group of Abwehr, in the form of our sailors and Red Army men, fluent in Russian, crossed to our shore, and it was not difficult, since some of our soldiers from the defeated units were also ferried from the defeated units after the battles on the North Side, bayonets, silently, having removed our forward guard seized berths, thermal power plants (de-energized the city and the switchboard, depriving the unit of communication) and ensured the crossing of the forward detachments. As soon as they were discovered, the Germans opened a hurricane of artillery fire, suppressing our firing points that had been targeted in advance. Under the cover of a smoke screen, a ferry was established (BDB and 2 ferries) of the main forces (2 divisions) and heavy weapons (tanks and guns). Some were sunk, but the main forces managed to gain a foothold on the southern coast. Petrov could not react in time and adequately, but what happened happened. Manoshin writes: "The recall of the senior command staff .. PROBABLY (!) ... went from the evening of the 29th." This is his opinion. No documents. Who exactly gave the command? The Germans cut our wire communications, connected, listened, gave false orders. About "street fighting". Of course, retreating, our soldiers put up fierce resistance, occupied a perimeter defense, even went over to counterattacks, while there were cartridges and grenades. But organizing street battles with the loss of command and control is impossible. The Germans continued to methodically destroy the city without getting involved in street fighting. "The military needs a clear order and organization" ... For a non-military person, everything is simple. There is no organization, because there is no communication, the subunits (remnants) are scattered, in the "Brownian" movement, retreat to the line of evacuation. Otherwise they will be surrounded and destroyed. There is only one order - to fight! Fight, but with what! Piskunov can be understood. I had to fly away - it didn't work. Offended. About Rubtsov and Golovko. 109 SD Novikova managed to retreat with almost no losses in full force. Germans in the I sector did not advance, and Rubtsov's regiment (456th NKVD JV) did not have time, occupied the farthest section (southern) by the sea. He fought heroically and died. Where is Art. l-tu Golovko know the general picture of the battle? Each fighter sees the war from his own trench. "Rejection in the hardest moment ..." is fine, but only for a rally. From combat-ready units - one SD Novikov (incomplete). The soldiers were physically tired, and after the defeat of the front and the loss of communication with the command and mentally. No security, no food, no ammunition, no medicine, no artillery, no aviation, no tanks. How to unlock?
  3. +6
    5 November 2016 08: 27
    Author: Viktor Medvedev "Philip Sergeevich commanded the Black Sea Fleet at a very difficult time - from 1939 to 1948. Stalin" removed "him and reappointed him."

    And he’s not to blame for anything
    And who will prove it?
    I read a book (fiction) in my childhood about those events. The soul vomited ... Eternal memory to the heroes of the second defense, who fell in the battles for the Soviet Motherland!
    1. +6
      5 November 2016 08: 43
      Quote: V.ic
      And he’s not to blame for anything

      Well, why not blame? For example, let’s say, as a Komflot, it’s to blame for the failure of the landing in Ozereyka, for which it was removed from the fleet and put on the flotilla, but ... not shot like Pavlov and Kulik.
      Quote: V.ic
      And who will prove it?

      History will prove, my friend, an honest and clean story!
      1. avt
        +5
        5 November 2016 13: 34
        Quote: Serg65
        but ... not shot like Pavlov and Kulik.

        Well, yes, well, yes ..... just specify when and for what each, or something like that in a heap of Pavlov and Kulik, whom only in 1945 before the Major General (and for hard drinking too) only then in 1950 to the wall then.
        Quote: Monarchist
        To some extent, the blame for what happened in July 1942 lies with Stalin.
        It may be precisely in the part that, practically after the Moscow battle, he planned THREE practically strategic operations - the release of Leningrad, the capture of Kharkov and the liberation of Crimea through Kerch. But the army was simply not ready for such large-scale operations that they could only carry out after Stalingrad. Regarding Sevastopol, I have a strong conviction that they were not going to hand over it. Indirect confirmation is practically the appointment of the hero Hanko and the commander of the defense at Rybachy Kabanov. However, the pendulum swung in favor of the Nazis and events rolled like an avalanche. So to compare with Odessa and why the same people SO disposed of the situation, it’s a stupid occupation, well, incomparable circumstances. Ohhhh it would be interesting if someone, on the basis of documents, enlightened the role of the same Brandenburg and associated White Guards, well, those who worked on a rotational basis from the same Yugoslavia. After the liberation of Sevastopol, too, they got a lot of blood, eliminating the commanding staff of the fleet and the army.
        1. +2
          7 November 2016 23: 55
          There is now enough material on "Brandenburg" in "Vick". The Germans have opened the archives, but not all of them are freely available. Available on American sites. Search.
    2. +1
      8 November 2016 01: 33
      Quote: V.ic
      Author: Viktor Medvedev "Philip Sergeevich commanded the Black Sea Fleet at a very difficult time - from 1939 to 1948. Stalin" removed "him and reappointed him."

      And he’s not to blame for anything
      And who will prove it?
      I read a book (fiction) in my childhood about those events. The soul vomited ... Eternal memory to the heroes of the second defense, who fell in the battles for the Soviet Motherland!

      The author does not think so. Oktyabrsky has errors and miscalculations in the full-format article. But he was a naval admiral and the fleet provided for the defense of the naval naval base until the last opportunity. And in matters of land defense, more specialists were Petrov and Morgunov.
  4. +1
    5 November 2016 08: 45
    To some extent, the blame for what happened in July 1942 lies with Stalin. But it can be understood: Sevastopol thoroughly tied Manstein.
    I once heard: in June 1942, by the order of Budenny, all fishing vessels of the Sea of ​​Azov were burned, and in July 1942 they could be of great help. Is this true or not?
    1. +7
      5 November 2016 09: 22
      Quote: Monarchist
      I once heard: in June 1942, by the order of Budenny, all fishing vessels of the Sea of ​​Azov were burned, and in July 1942 they could be of great help. Is this true or not?

      Many seiners and motobots (they were the fishing vessels you mentioned) died during the Kerch landing (December of the 41) and the evacuation of the Crimean front (May of the 42), the remainder was part of the Azov military flotilla, which in turn was disbanded on September 8 of the 1942 year, part of the ships and vessels broke through the Strait of Kerch, the rest were destroyed.
    2. +5
      5 November 2016 17: 09
      Monarchist
      I once heard: in June 1942, by the order of Budenny, all fishing vessels of the Sea of ​​Azov were burned, and in July 1942 they could be of great help. Is this true or not?


      At the end of August 1942, the Azov flotilla, which also included the vessels of the fishing fleet, broke through into the Black Sea with heavy losses, passing 164 ships through the Kerch Strait. In September, all forces and units were transferred to the Novorossiysk and Kerch naval bases, the 2nd brigade of torpedo boats. As part of them, they participated in battles on the Taman Peninsula, in the Anapa region, near Novorossiysk and in the city itself. The seamen of the Azov flotilla heroically defended my city Temryuk .. There is a monument to them, which is called "Monument to the dead sailors". Front commander S. M. Budyonny, in the midst of the local battles, sent Rear Admiral S.G. Gorshkov a telegram: "Announce to all personnel that the defense of Temryuk will go down in the history of the Patriotic War. The heroism shown by the personnel is followed by the whole country, as it was after the heroes of Sevastopol. ”For two weeks, fierce battles were going on in the area of ​​Temryuk. The battalions of the Marine Corps, headed by Major Ts. Kunikov, Lieutenant Commander A. Vostrikov and Senior Lieutenant P. Zheludko, were particularly distinguished in them.
  5. +2
    5 November 2016 10: 01
    Our command was afraid of Stalin far more than Hitler Germans, but they didn’t carry out any evacuation; if the war had been led by the General Staff of the parties, the story would have looked different.
    1. +1
      5 November 2016 10: 03
      I didn’t build a proposal in Russian, I apologize, I write on the go.
      1. +7
        5 November 2016 11: 46
        Not in Russian and think!
  6. +16
    5 November 2016 10: 12
    The correct article.
    It is worthy of mentioning the activities of "Ukrainian historians" = enemies of Russia and everything normal and human.
    It is important that the person who has a deeply personal relationship to the events wrote.

    As a comment, I can only add that the extremely precise figures given in terms of the number of people are accurate only once: only 1726 people reached the Caucasus from Sevastopol.
    As I understand it, the basic information is given by the book of Manoshin. It, indeed, provides information with high accuracy. But this is the result of the quality of post-war attempts to restore events. Primary information was accurate only as long as the control system was maintained and the front remained stable.
    In the last days of defense - the last week of June - meticulous statistics were no longer kept. Even how many boats left Sevastopol we know approximately. Someone tried to escape even in a wooden car body ...
    One such attempt is known, but it was hardly the only one.
    There were many boats and boats in Sevastopol. Many were already unsuitable for going to sea. But under the current conditions, reasoning about unsuitability hardly stopped the fighters.

    Particular difficulties in understanding what happened are connected with the fact that out of many units of the Black Sea Fleet practically no one survived.

    What happened in the Streletskaya area, where they held the defense of the 14th BB unit, we will never know. They heard their attempt at a breakthrough in other places of resistance, but no one came out of there ...
    Nobody will tell how the sailors from the OVR units on Primorsky Boulevard, in Quarantine, at the Water Station (at the Monument to the Flooded Ships) accepted the last battle ...
    Among those who did not take a step back, even having permission to withdraw, there were scouts of the Black Sea Fleet, the backbone of which was Heroes of Odessa, fighters of the 1st Marine Regiment, Colonel Osipov.
    In the city, or rather in the ruins of Sevastopol, there were pockets of resistance, which, as I understand it, also arose spontaneously. One of these foci was led by Noah Adamia from the 7th Marine Brigade. About the feat of these heroes, too, no one to tell.

    Who knows the relief of Sevastopol and its concrete structures during the Great Patriotic War, probably, will agree that with the presence of weapons and ammunition, it was possible to organize defense in different nodes.
    What was my surprise when they told me that the sailors until the last fought in the ancient Greek cemetery - between Pozharov Street and the main entrance to the Kherson nature reserve ...

    Why am I tugging my soul?
    Sevastopol city is amazing. In it, on simple Khrushchevs, boards with the names of the living Heroes of the Soviet Union are fixed.
    But even this is not enough.
    In Sevastopol, on every stone, on every foundation, in every beam one can write "Heroes of the Soviet Union did not die here, but surrendered."

    And more.
    Not every person can set a day for his death.
    Even fearless, even a Hero.
    To perish to a person is unnatural.
    Death is always evil, and often with great real damage to the common cause.
    For this reason, an attempt to evacuate the Primorye Army, or a real attempt to save at least the commanders and the leadership of the city, is correct.
    But there are laws of war.
    And not everything that is desired is possible.
    I tried to explain that many defenders of Sevastopol understood the reality of the situation, did not even try to evacuate.
    They found a comfortable position and took the last battle.
    And the sailors from the OVR units, guarding the coast from possible landings, took the last battle without taking a step back.

    Eternal memory to them.
    Tell them about everyone who has a heart.
  7. +10
    5 November 2016 10: 28
    Still alive "Chervona Ukraine"


    Transport "Abkhazia"


    Destroyer "Svobodny"

    If you howl to the embankment of the Sea Terminal, then against the wall of art workshops you can see a plain, gray ship with a big pipe. So this little ship is now called OT 463, and in the 1941 year it was a tug SP-10, he spent 340 days in besieged Sevastopol and is the only witness of those days !!!!
  8. +6
    5 November 2016 10: 45
    Author! Plus! Great advantage.
  9. +4
    5 November 2016 11: 14
    "But the Germans received reinforcements (three infantry regiments and the 46th division from the Kerch Peninsula) and managed to bring up 6 tons of bombs they had seized in the warehouses of the Crimean Front destroyed at the end of May."
    -------------------------------------------------
    - It turns out that the Germans were bombing us with "our" bombs too ..? -This is ... -Just no words ... -So why didn't ours blow up the warehouses and give them into the hands of the enemy ..? -Maybe then everything would have turned differently ..? -Maybe they would have defended Sevastopol ..?
    1. +3
      5 November 2016 11: 51
      "It was smooth on paper ....."
    2. +4
      6 November 2016 10: 04
      Quote olena:
      It turns out that the Germans were bombing us with "our" bombs too ..?


      And this is far from the first case.
      Due to the location of military depots overly close to the border, the deployment of which was developed by the General Staff of the Red Army under the leadership of Army Hero of the Soviet Union Army General Meretskov and Army Hero of the Soviet Union Army General Zhukov, a large, even overwhelming majority of them, went to the Wehrmacht. In particular, in these warehouses only 76 mm Grabin’s divisional cannons were seized, about 1944 new in oil, which the Germans then used, even in XNUMX against the Red Army.
      The military fuel and lubricant depots were also captured, according to Halder’s memoirs, which says that a third of the needs of the entire Wehrmacht with the Lufwaffe were closed with captured fuel for a month, i.e. Germans drove on tanks, on our own gasoline.
      Here again the fault of our generalswho developed and approved such a deployment of warehouses and did not at all provide measures for their movement or, if necessary, for their liquidation.
      Moreover, to destroy military depots of ammunition and gasoline fuels and lubricants does not require much effort and time. For the fuel and lubricants warehouse, it’s enough to open the drain taps and throw one hot match, and there is no fuel and lubricants warehouse.
  10. +6
    5 November 2016 12: 42
    Quote: Sergey S.
    In Sevastopol, on every stone, on every foundation, in every beam one can write "Heroes of the Soviet Union did not die here, but surrendered."

    Admin please fix ...
    "Heroes of the Soviet Union died here, but did not surrender"

    He wrote, apparently got excited, missed. did not notice ...
    I will be very grateful, and very sorry.
  11. NGK
    +4
    5 November 2016 13: 52
    Quote: Sergey S.
    The correct article.
    It is worthy of mentioning the activities of "Ukrainian historians" = enemies of Russia and everything normal and human.
    It is important that the person who has a deeply personal relationship to the events wrote.

    As a comment, I can only add that the extremely precise figures given in terms of the number of people are accurate only once: only 1726 people reached the Caucasus from Sevastopol.
    As I understand it, the basic information is given by the book of Manoshin. It, indeed, provides information with high accuracy. But this is the result of the quality of post-war attempts to restore events. Primary information was accurate only as long as the control system was maintained and the front remained stable.
    In the last days of defense - the last week of June - meticulous statistics were no longer kept. Even how many boats left Sevastopol we know approximately. Someone tried to escape even in a wooden car body ...
    One such attempt is known, but it was hardly the only one.
    There were many boats and boats in Sevastopol. Many were already unsuitable for going to sea. But under the current conditions, reasoning about unsuitability hardly stopped the fighters.

    Particular difficulties in understanding what happened are connected with the fact that out of many units of the Black Sea Fleet practically no one survived.

    What happened in the Streletskaya area, where they held the defense of the 14th BB unit, we will never know. They heard their attempt at a breakthrough in other places of resistance, but no one came out of there ...
    Nobody will tell how the sailors from the OVR units on Primorsky Boulevard, in Quarantine, at the Water Station (at the Monument to the Flooded Ships) accepted the last battle ...
    Among those who did not take a step back, even having permission to withdraw, there were scouts of the Black Sea Fleet, the backbone of which was Heroes of Odessa, fighters of the 1st Marine Regiment, Colonel Osipov.
    In the city, or rather in the ruins of Sevastopol, there were pockets of resistance, which, as I understand it, also arose spontaneously. One of these foci was led by Noah Adamia from the 7th Marine Brigade. About the feat of these heroes, too, no one to tell.

    Who knows the relief of Sevastopol and its concrete structures during the Great Patriotic War, probably, will agree that with the presence of weapons and ammunition, it was possible to organize defense in different nodes.
    What was my surprise when they told me that the sailors until the last fought in the ancient Greek cemetery - between Pozharov Street and the main entrance to the Kherson nature reserve ...

    Why am I tugging my soul?
    Sevastopol city is amazing. In it, on simple Khrushchevs, boards with the names of the living Heroes of the Soviet Union are fixed.
    But even this is not enough.
    In Sevastopol, on every stone, on every foundation, in every beam one can write "Heroes of the Soviet Union did not die here, but surrendered."

    And more.
    Not every person can set a day for his death.
    Even fearless, even a Hero.
    To perish to a person is unnatural.
    Death is always evil, and often with great real damage to the common cause.
    For this reason, an attempt to evacuate the Primorye Army, or a real attempt to save at least the commanders and the leadership of the city, is correct.
    But there are laws of war.
    And not everything that is desired is possible.
    I tried to explain that many defenders of Sevastopol understood the reality of the situation, did not even try to evacuate.
    They found a comfortable position and took the last battle.
    And the sailors from the OVR units, guarding the coast from possible landings, took the last battle without taking a step back.

    Eternal memory to them.
    Tell them about everyone who has a heart.

    We taught at school, by the way, in the south of Ukraine, one military doctor in a boat from Sevastopol brought it all the way to Turkey, I don't remember his last name. The book was called Hunger, and I don’t remember the author either.
  12. +4
    5 November 2016 20: 08
    I have been waiting for such an article for a long time. It is hard to accept that tens of thousands of men and women were thrown without a chance, even for organized resistance. Local residents tell how the Germans drove a multi-kilometer line of Sevastopol prisoners on the road to Simferopol. The blows with rifle butts were given to those who tried to give the prisoners water or a piece of bread ... It is a pity that assessing the current reality, many "citizens of the Russian Federation" do not remember what happened a little more than 70 years ago. Even if all this "mercantile tribe" is driven through the 35th battery, it will hardly help. I saw the disgusting selfie scenes myself at the death window at the memorial. Even the guide lost his composure from indignation. ..
  13. +4
    5 November 2016 20: 43
    Quote from the article:
    Suppose, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorye Army and the COF, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units “to the last opportunity”. The entire high command heroically perished or would be captured.


    These are the author's assumptions and conjectures.
    Why does the author not allow otherwise, namely:
    For example, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorsky Army and the COF, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units entrusted to them "to the last opportunity." Then the troops would not be left to their own devices, organized, controlled, and repelled the advance of the Germans and Romanians, and Sevastopol would not be surrendered. Manstein’s army stubbornly defended the Soviet troops was bloodless and was already advancing to the limit of their last forces.
    1. +3
      5 November 2016 21: 42
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      Why does the author not allow otherwise, namely:
      For example, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorsky Army and the COF, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units entrusted to them "to the last opportunity." Then the troops would not be left to their own devices, organized, controlled, and repelled the advance of the Germans and Romanians, and Sevastopol would not be surrendered. Manstein’s army stubbornly defended the Soviet troops was bloodless and was already advancing to the limit of their last forces.

      Read the topic from the beginning.
      1. If there is no ammunition, how to fight ...
      2. If the Germans have already crossed the Northern Bay, climbed the Suzdal Bay, went to the Laboratornoye Highway and almost reached the railway station, how to “bleed” Manstein under such conditions?
      3. When several people remained in the mouth, how to organize, manage and reflect?

      The situation is also unpleasant for me. when the commanders escaped, and the soldiers and sailors could not, at best, count only on captivity.
      But this is a problem of morality, charter and order.

      In the moral aspect, the problem can be discussed.
      In other senses, it is senseless and smacks of primitive anti-Soviet.

      let's better discuss the problem of financial and industrial leaders who appropriated the people's money and threw us all ...
      Who enthusiastically destroyed the attributes of the greatness of the USSR ... (Who does not understand, with humpback and EBN)
      Which privatization arranged specifically in your pocket ....
      Who, during the war, buy tomatoes from Erdogan, go to resorts in NATO, discuss the conditions for easing sanctions ...

      And to translate the arrows of our anger at Oktyabrsky and Petrov in our conditions is dishonorable.
      I personally knew a man who served under the command of General Petrov in 1944. He did not meet a more decent and caring soldier general.
      1. +3
        6 November 2016 07: 21
        Quote Sergey S .:
        If there is no ammunition, how to fight


        October before evacuation gave the order to blow up the naval ammunition depot, where it was stored 400 wagons of explosives and shells, this is about 20 thousand tons of explosives and shells. True, they say that the shells were expired, however, according to eyewitnesses, the explosion from them was such a force that it was difficult to breathe dust and burnt earth from air from several kilometers away.
        These 400 explosive wagons and shells, about 20 thousand tons, could be used for war with the Wehrmacht, at least for mining the terrain in front of the front line, and not just blast it in vain. If at least one Wehrmacht soldier and at least half a soldier were blown up from this ton of mines, from this explosive and shells, then Manstein would have lost his desire to advance. Soviet soldiers and sailors are not to blame. The generals of Petrov and the admirals of October are to blame for not using the opportunities for the defense of Sevastopol, but for themselves looking for opportunities, as it were, and on what to drape from the scene of the fighting to save oneself beloved as especially valuable personnel of the army, navy and country.
        1. +2
          7 November 2016 23: 49
          Quote: Ivan Tartugay
          Quote Sergey S .:
          If there is no ammunition, how to fight


          October before evacuation gave the order to blow up the naval ammunition depot, where it was stored 400 wagons of explosives and shells, this is about 20 thousand tons of explosives and shells. True, they say that the shells were expired, however, according to eyewitnesses, the explosion from them was such a force that it was difficult to breathe dust and burnt earth from air from several kilometers away.
          These 400 explosive wagons and shells, about 20 thousand tons, could be used for war with the Wehrmacht, at least for mining the terrain in front of the front line, and not just blast it in vain. If at least one Wehrmacht soldier and at least half a soldier were blown up from this ton of mines, from this explosive and shells, then Manstein would have lost his desire to advance. Soviet soldiers and sailors are not to blame. The generals of Petrov and the admirals of October are to blame for not using the opportunities for the defense of Sevastopol, but for themselves looking for opportunities, as it were, and on what to drape from the scene of the fighting to save oneself beloved as especially valuable personnel of the army, navy and country.

          Stupid and naive, but for a civilian person is excusable and I will answer. In Inkerman adit (Champagne) there were probably much more b / ws, about 500 wagons, but this was no longer a naval warehouse. Navy depots were in Sukharnaya Balk, and Red Navy A.K. Chikarenko blew them up on June 25, having buried about 200 Germans capturing the adit. And in those adits about which I was talking, I still climbed as a kid and old-timers said that they had been extracting gunpowder and bombs (cores) since the Crimean War. This is precisely what fleet command used this b / z for making landmines when equipping defense lines in the fall of 1941. Explosives from these adits were also used to make mines, mortars, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines throughout the entire defense period. And not half a soldier, and not a single soldier, but 6000 during the first assault and 10 soldiers during the second assault, Manstein lost, and for some reason his desire to attack did not disappear! And the technician quartermaster Prokofiy Saenko blew up at the last moment, at 000 hours 2 minutes on June 30, it is clear that he would not leave the enemy.
          1. +2
            8 November 2016 12: 45
            [
            i]Quote from ksanich:[/ I]
            This is precisely what fleet command used this b / z for making landmines when equipping defense lines in the fall of 1941. Explosives from these adits were also used to make mines, mortars, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines throughout the entire defense period.

            Yes, you see, the command of the SOR badly used the opportunity to inflict damage on the enemy, that on June 30 there were 400 explosive wagons and expired ammunition, about 20 thousand tons, not tons, but tons. And all this was simply blown up without causing any harm to the enemy. The command in the person of Admiral Oktyabrsky, PMC Kulakov, General Petrov was thinking more about how to give during a fight from dangerous Sevastopol to a calm Caucasus.
            During June 29-30, when our troops left, the Northern Power Plant, special plant No. 1 and other facilities were blown up on the Ship side, as well as fleet reserve arsenal Explosives and expired ammunition in Inkerman, of which there were about 400 wagons. In order to dispel different speculations about the allegedly killed during the arsenal explosion, I bring back the recollections of the commander of the 3rd artillery battalion of the 99th howitzer artillery regiment of the 25th Chapaev division, Major Z. G. Oleinik, who was at the time of this explosion at an observation post in the headwaters of the Laboratory Beam in in the morning of June 29, 1942:
            “After two huge underground explosions in the area of ​​Chertovaya Balka in Inkerman, it became dark from burning and dust, it became difficult to breathe. Immediately after the incident, the commander of the 31st rifle regiment of our division, Lt. Col. B. A. Lykov, said that half an hour before the explosion, a cargo "jeep with a group of sailors arrived at his command post. He introduced himself to the senior group military engineer of the 2nd rank, the head of the warehouse facilities P.P. Saenko and reported that has a command order blow up adits with explosives and old ammunition, while presenting your ID. After clarifying with Lykov that there were no people and our fighters in the neighboring adits, where the 47th medical battalion of the division was previously located, the sailors pulled wires to the previously laid charges in two adits. With a contact machine from the car they blew up the adits and left for Sevastopol. ”
            That's all use 400 cars 20 thousand tons of explosives and expired ammunition.
      2. +1
        6 November 2016 08: 47
        Quote Sergey S .:
        I personally knew a man who served under the command of General Petrov in 1944. More decent and caring to the needs of a soldier he did not meet the general.


        About caring and decency of General Petrov says his behavior and speaks better than the judgments of a person you personally knew who served under the command of General Petrov in 1944.
        He threw the troops entrusted to him at the most difficult moment in time. He is an experienced professional military leader. He knew that abandoned troops without control would be easy prey for the Wehrmacht. He knew that his subordinates were ensured death and captivity, and of those captured, most would die. But General Petrov left the troops anyway, saved himself and his son, lieutenant of the Red Army, fled together on a submarine.
        For his son, he was really caring, saved him, and for the Soviet troops and not caring, and not decent.
        Save and preserve the army, navy and the country from such "caring and decent" generals of Peter the Great and admirals of October.
        1. 0
          7 November 2016 23: 06
          Petrov’s son was his orderly and should have been with him under any circumstances. And it is not a fact that they would have safely reached the Caucasus.
          1. +1
            8 November 2016 09: 02
            Quote: ksanich
            Petrov’s son was his orderly and should have been with him under any circumstances.


            General Petrov was the commander of the Primorsky Army and should have been with her under any circumstances.and not to abandon their subordinates, the wounded, to the mercy of fate, and all this only in order to save himself as a very valuable person for the army, and at the same time his son, the adjutant commander, no less valuable person for the Red Army.
            In your opinion, about 90 thousand lives of abandoned fighters and wounded that died, that were captured and most of whom died in captivity are not worth the life of General Petrov.
            1. +1
              8 November 2016 13: 56
              Quote: Ivan Tartugay
              Quote: ksanich
              Petrov’s son was his orderly and should have been with him under any circumstances.


              General Petrov was the commander of the Primorsky Army and should have been with her under any circumstances.and not to abandon their subordinates, the wounded, to the mercy of fate, and all this only in order to save himself as a very valuable person for the army, and at the same time his son, the adjutant commander, no less valuable person for the Red Army.
              In your opinion, about 90 thousand lives of abandoned fighters and wounded that died, that were captured and most of whom died in captivity are not worth the life of General Petrov.

              Measures of civil morality do not work here. The war has its own cruel, merciless laws. One sensible general is an army of ordinary ordinary soldiers. What should, in your opinion, Petrov do? With a rifle at the ready to run ahead of everyone? Do not make people laugh!
              1. +1
                8 November 2016 21: 02
                Quote: ksanich
                Measures of civil morality do not work here.

                The moral for all is one. A thief is a thief everywhere, a traitor is a traitor everywhere, a coward is a coward everywhere.
                Quote: ksanich
                One sensible general is an army of ordinary ordinary soldiers.

                Never will a general cost an army of privates. This, together with the rank and file, he is a general, without the rank and file he is no longer a general.
                Quote: ksanich
                What should, in your opinion, Petrov do? With a rifle at the ready to run ahead of everyone?

                What nonsense are you writing, who was waiting for a run from Petrov ahead with a rifle at the ready?
                They expected from him the conscientious fulfillment of their duties, namely the duties of the commander of the Primorsky Army. But he fled to the Caucasus, away from the front, threw the army.
          2. +1
            8 November 2016 12: 14
            Quote: ksanich
            And not the fact that they would safely reach the Caucasus.


            Of course not a fact.
            In particular, Lt. Col. Semechkin, head of the staffing department of the Primorsky Army, recalled:
            “We were going to land on a submarine. I walked ahead of Petrov. At this time, someone from the crowd began to scream abusively: “You are so-so-so, you leave us, and you run away”. And here gave the queue from the machine gun to Commander General Petrov. But since I was in front of him, the whole turn hit me. I fell…".
            Those. the general could not even get on a submarine, not like the Caucasus. General Petrov could have died from the bullet of his subordinate, while trying to shamefully drape from the front.
            For example, General Novikov also abandoned the troops entrusted to him, tried to escape from Sevastopol, from the war zone, but was captured, and the captivity was beaten to death with sticks by the concentration camp guards. So it was worth the general, saving himself, to run from a bullet to sticks, i.e. and he glorified himself as a deserter traitor and perished. But there is a family and relatives who were proud of it, how did a native person become a general. And after all, according to the reviews of colleagues, he fought well, but he ruined everything.
            1. +1
              8 November 2016 14: 14
              Quote: Ivan Tartugay
              Quote: ksanich
              And not the fact that they would safely reach the Caucasus.


              Of course not a fact.
              In particular, Lt. Col. Semechkin, head of the staffing department of the Primorsky Army, recalled:
              “We were going to land on a submarine. I walked ahead of Petrov. At this time, someone from the crowd began to scream abusively: “You are so-so-so, you leave us, and you run away”. And here gave the queue from the machine gun to Commander General Petrov. But since I was in front of him, the whole turn hit me. I fell…".
              Those. the general could not even get on a submarine, not like the Caucasus. General Petrov could have died from the bullet of his subordinate, while trying to shamefully drape from the front.
              For example, General Novikov also abandoned the troops entrusted to him, tried to escape from Sevastopol, from the war zone, but was captured, and the captivity was beaten to death with sticks by the concentration camp guards. So it was worth the general, saving himself, to run from a bullet to sticks, i.e. and he glorified himself as a deserter traitor and perished. But there is a family and relatives who were proud of it, how did a native person become a general. And after all, according to the reviews of colleagues, he fought well, but he ruined everything.

              And you carefully read the article and it will be clear. who is this ".. someone from the crowd ...". And the Soviet Red Army soldier (subordinate) will not, under any circumstances (!) Shoot at his general. You need to know the mentality of the fighter and the army chain of command of that time. And no one considers him a deserter except you. He completed the task assigned to him in the October order to the end. And the fact that he did not break down in captivity and died, like Karbyshev a hero, only does him honor!
              1. +1
                8 November 2016 16: 50
                Quote: ksanich
                He fully completed the task assigned to him in the order of the October.

                Really, Oktyabrsky ordered him to abandon his troops and give him a tear from Sevastopol.
                Although it is quite possible, Oktyabrsky himself fled wearing a strange cloak so that he would not be recognized at the airport by the admiral’s tunic. True, recalling, he said at meetings that, allegedly, he himself was not covered by someone else’s cloak, but that it was allegedly against his will, that they almost covered him with force, they wrapped him in another’s cloak. And also wrapped around. Well, what can you do, the mentality of a fighter and the army (navy) subordination of that time.
                1. 0
                  8 November 2016 20: 22
                  Quote: Ivan Tartugay
                  Really, Oktyabrsky ordered him to abandon his troops and give him a tear from Sevastopol.
                  Although it is quite possible, Oktyabrsky himself fled wearing a strange cloak so that he would not be recognized at the airport by the admiral’s tunic.

                  What kind of nonsense are you talking about? What troops! Troops are ORGANIZED military units (l / s, weapons, b / n, support, etc.). Read the docs. Oktyabrsky did not RUN. Budyonny's directive: "1. By order of the Headquarters Oktyabrsky, Kulakov URGENT (!) To arrive in Novorossiysk ...". What kind of escape are we talking about? The Navy's fleet simply foresaw the ONLY POSSIBLE scenario. And the cloak was thrown over him by the guards to hide the "gold" epaulet. And the mate is probably the one who had no chance to shoot to kill, that would somehow "start" the crowd. Read the article carefully, everything is written there. But your obstinacy drowns out the voice of logic and reason. I see no point in further dialogue. This is a conversation with unwilling to see and hear.
                  1. +1
                    9 November 2016 05: 38
                    Quote: ksanich
                    What troops! Troops are ORGANIZED military units (military units, weapons, military units, support, etc.).


                    So write yourself Admiral Oktyabrsky and General Petrov ruined the troops entrusted to them, and then left to their own devices, or rather surrendered the Wehrmacht to reprisal.
                    1. 0
                      9 November 2016 21: 36
                      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
                      Quote: ksanich
                      What troops! Troops are ORGANIZED military units (military units, weapons, military units, support, etc.).


                      So write yourself Admiral Oktyabrsky and General Petrov ruined the troops entrusted to them, and then left to their own devices, or rather surrendered the Wehrmacht to reprisal.

                      Are you all right with your head? How can a commander "destroy the troops ..."? What is he? Traitor? Yes, there is a whole Military Council (Black Sea Fleet and PA) around him! Special officers, political workers. Are they all traitors too? Yes, Stalin, (Mekhlis, Beria) just put suspicion against the wall. Turn your head on at least a little. Read the RESULTS in the comments.
    2. +1
      7 November 2016 22: 28
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      Quote from the article:
      Suppose, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorye Army and the COF, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units “to the last opportunity”. The entire high command heroically perished or would be captured.


      These are the author's assumptions and conjectures.
      Why does the author not allow otherwise, namely:
      For example, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorsky Army and the COF, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units entrusted to them "to the last opportunity." Then the troops would not be left to their own devices, organized, controlled, and repelled the advance of the Germans and Romanians, and Sevastopol would not be surrendered. Manstein’s army stubbornly defended the Soviet troops was bloodless and was already advancing to the limit of their last forces.

      On June 30, this last opportunity for organized resistance as part of the fortified area forces was exhausted for the Primorsky Army and the SOR fighters. And then the chaos situation was incorrigible. Force Majeure. The enemy was stronger. The last opportunity remained - to fight with honor, with the despair of the doomed. And for the organization of such an opportunity, the commanders of regiments and divisions are not needed. This is the level of detachment, platoon, maximum company.
  14. +4
    5 November 2016 21: 18
    Quote from the article:
    While the encryption was processed and searched for General Petrov, he and his headquarters were already at sea, on the Sch-209 submarine. Petrov tried to shoot himself


    In addition to the commander of the Primorsky Army, General Petrov, his deputies, division commanders, and army regiment commanders also evacuated with army headquarters. They left only General Novikov without a headquarters, without communications. Those. The Maritime Army was completely beheaded and left to its own devices by the evacuation organized by the Hero of the Soviet Union (since 1958 at the request of the working people) Admiral Oktyabrsky. The evacuation was not agreed with the Headquarters, with Stalin IV. The decision to evacuate was made by Admiral Oktyabrsky, confronting the fact of his people's commissar Kuznetsov and the commander of the North Caucasian Front, Budyonny, whom he quickly obeyed, but did not consider it necessary to inform the Headquarters.
    General Novikov, remaining the only general in Sevastopol, looking at his superior officers, also considered it possible to abandon the troops, and at the same time the general's uniform, disguised as an ordinary soldier, tried to escape from Sevastopol, but was captured by the Germans. Manshtein even asked to find a general's uniform for Novikov and change clothes.
    Those. the troops were not just abandoned, but vilely taken prisoner by our own generals and admirals.
    The fate of tens of thousands of wounded soldiers is especially tragic.
    But Napoleon also said that if you leave the wounded, then the army is doomed.
    So our generals Petrov and the admirals of October doomed the army to collapse.
    1. +1
      7 November 2016 22: 42
      Novikov never changed his clothes "in the uniform of an ordinary soldier ..." He was on the boat in general's trousers and a white undershirt, with an arm in a sling. was wounded in the shoulder, without a jacket, it simply could not be worn. Refer to the document. There was no talk of evacuation. The command was taken out to the Caucasus.
      1. -1
        19 June 2023 19: 04
        to see General Manstein did not know this when, after the capture of this Novikov on that very boat, he ordered the general to dress appropriately .. shaking him out of the uniform of a private)
  15. +3
    5 November 2016 21: 34
    Quote from the article:
    Petrov tried to shoot himself. Surrounding did not give, took away the gun.


    For a man who abandoned the troops entrusted to him, who, as a well-informed, experienced professional military leader, knew in advance their tragic fate - it would be too noble to be true.
    1. 0
      19 June 2021 13: 02
      Apparently they tried to return him to the shore, to command further.
  16. +4
    6 November 2016 00: 41
    Somehow in particular, the general was lost. No one denies the heroism of the defenders of Sevastopol. No one denies the need for his defense, primarily with the aim of fettering the German units. Everything is clear here. At the same time, one cannot fail to note the grossest mistakes made during his defense. For some reason, many then and now believe that you can ride on one heroism? Why in many articles the same supposedly sounding justification of the rate and immediate bosses thought that they believed that Sevastopol would hold on, that Kiev would stand, that Manstein or Guderian would act in this way and not otherwise, etc. etc. And here is the count? Any normal military leader should act not at random, but consider all options. Why are so many people caught up in Sevastopol and the Kerch Peninsula? It clearly shows the desire of a certain commanding staff to justify their inability to fight by the ostentatious desire to show what they all did to solve their task. What claims can be to them, after all, they drove all those whom it was possible to deliver there to these heels. The article does not say that even the last ships breaking through to the city continued to carry manpower. Yes, they took away a certain number of wounded, but this is a drop in the ocean. As a result, the disaster did not happen due to the lack of fighters, but because of the lack of ammunition and food.
    And yet, in any situation, the evacuation at the crucial moment of most of the senior military commanders, of course, played a role.
    1. +3
      7 November 2016 13: 56
      Unfortunately, in Russia - the heroism of soldiers, it is often - the mediocrity of command.

      If something happens "suddenly" in a war, it means that intelligence is poorly organized (and in the Second World War it was extremely poorly organized - even if there was no specialized aircraft) or the command is in blissful complacency.
      1. +2
        7 November 2016 22: 54
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Unfortunately, in Russia - the heroism of soldiers, it is often - the mediocrity of command.

        If something happens "suddenly" in a war, it means that intelligence is poorly organized (and in the Second World War it was extremely poorly organized - even if there was no specialized aircraft) or the command is in blissful complacency.

        Here I completely agree. Manstein dared to play all-in and won. Our Russian "Avos" worked. Maybe it will. Not carried over. If Petrov and Morgunov had guessed his plan, the offensive would have been thwarted. Hitler withdrew 8 AK (500 aircraft) for an attack on the Caucasus, and Manstein with his army aviation (40-60 aircraft) could not completely block Sevastopol. And the moral superiority would be on our side and the army would not die. But this is already in my next story.
  17. +6
    6 November 2016 03: 18
    Admiral Kuznetsov in his memoirs writes:

    “In the last days of June, the situation in Sevastopol sharply worsened. At this time, the commander of the defensive area F. S. Oktyabrsky, together with a member of the Military Council, N. M. Kulakov, telegraphed: “Moscow - to Kuznetsov; Krasnodar - to Budyonny, Isakov. Based on this specific situation, I ask you to allow me to take 1-200 responsible workers, commanders to the Caucasus by plane and leave Sevastopol myself, leaving Major General I. Petrov here. The enemy broke through from the North to the ship. The fighting took on the character of street fighting. The remaining troops are very tired, although most continue to fight heroically. The enemy sharply increased the pressure of aircraft and tanks. Given the strong decline in firepower, we must assume that in this situation we will hold out for a maximum of 250-2 days. "

    Just think about the essence of the telegram.
    During battles, when command of the troops is especially necessary, the commander practically requires blackmail from the highest command to decapitate the fighting army, tearing it to pieces to the enemy, and save this commander. There is not a word in the telegram about what will happen to the soldiers?

    Compare the behavior of the German generals six months later at Stalingrad. Not only Paulus, but also other generals didn’t even have an idea to leave their soldiers and fly out of the boiler. Hitler ordered General Huba to fly out of the cauldron and take command of another unit, but Hube refused to carry out Hitler's order by sending him a telegram: “I brought my soldiers to Stalingrad and ordered them to fight to the last bullet. And now I’ll show them how to do it. ” This is the behavior of a commander who doesn’t blur out for any reason: “I have honor,” but simply has it.

    What is Stalin to do? Prohibit the evacuation of Oktyabrsky? It is impossible, and Stalin gave the go-ahead, but not because the admirals and generals are “more expensive” than ordinary soldiers and sailors, as many forum participants write in their posts, but because Stalin understood that October would not fight if he wanted to to fight, he would not send a telegram, ultimatum stipulating the term of his surrender - "a maximum of 2-3 days." And if he surrendered, Goebbels would ring to the whole world that the commander of the Black Sea Fleet of the USSR with a dozen generals and admirals and with the entire garrison surrendered to the Germans. Propaganda damage would be colossal, as this would set a precedent for other Soviet generals who, although they had previously been captured, did not surrender with the troops. And here Oktyabrsky directly warns that he will surrender Sevastopol together with the army - after all, he does not say a word about its evacuation, but it sets out the reason for the surrender - "the troops are very tired."

    Unfortunately, General Petrov was not up to par. The "Sevastopol commanders" instructed him to die for the Motherland, but he entrusted this to General Novikov, and he himself departed for a submarine. But Major General Novikov also did not want to die for his homeland and on the evening of July 1 sat down with his headquarters on a patrol boat, but he was unlucky - the patrol boat was intercepted by Italian torpedo boats and turned into Yalta along with the surrendered Novikov.

    Therefore, whatever the necessity of evacuating the fathers-commanders of the Sevastopol defensive region would be justified, this is the most shameful fact in the Great Patriotic War.

    And eternal Glory to the Defenders of Sevastopol, honestly fulfilling their duty!
    1. +1
      7 November 2016 22: 59
      Reread the article carefully. Evacuation was IMPOSSIBLE! The Germans began to plan the evacuation in advance, everything was painted and not fools at all, so what?
    2. +1
      8 November 2016 01: 15
      Oktyabrsky directly reports: "... we can hold out for 2-3 days ...."! The troops are tired ... "- To put it mildly. He could not write" defeated and retreat. "The Germans could read our telegrams. only the resistance of the doomed. If it was possible to somehow create an organized defense would it not have been done? Oktyabrsky understood that in those specific conditions evacuation is IMPOSSIBLE. The only correct decision is to withdraw at least the command. This does not fit into the postulates of civil morality. But the war has its own, merciless, cruel, without snotty pity laws. And Novikov had the task of holding out for 1-2 days, and he fulfilled it as long as he had the opportunity. Now about Paulus, who "... had no idea of ​​abandoning his soldiers." Study at least the subject about which you write, and do not repeat the tales of how he stayed with the troops and capitulated, saving the lives of his soldiers.Paulius, a convinced National Socialist (until August 1944) in the winter of 1943, least of all thought about the fate of his soldier. The 6th Army, (more than 300 thousand), blocked in the Stalingrad cauldron, starving, frostbitten, lousy, sick (typhoid fever, dysentery), eating all the horses, dogs and cats, without ammunition and medicines, was doomed to extinction. Hitler awarded him the rank of Field Marshal on January 30, hinting that field marshals did not surrender, hoping to avoid national shame. But he did not even think to shoot. He cruelly suppressed any attempts to surrender (talking, reading leaflets), up to the execution. I ignored the repeated attempts of our command for an honorable surrender. The parliamentarians ordered "Meet with fire!" Banned the evacuation of the wounded. Lightly wounded "are needed for battle", and the recumbent "take up a lot of space on the plane." Those who "could not hold arms" were ordered to be removed from the allowance! On repeated requests of his generals to lay down their arms and to surrender with dignity, he threatened to be shot. The commander of the 5th AK, General V. von Seidlitz, who allowed his commanders to make decisions about surrender themselves, ordered him to be put on trial, but canceled the order, thereby dooming his soldiers to certain death. However, on the morning of January 31, he voluntarily surrendered himself with his cook and adjutant, leaving his soldiers to die in the snowdrifts and under the ruins of Stalingrad and refused to sign the surrender order in order to end the bloodshed. Hitler concealed this shame and betrayal of Paulus. In Germany declared a 3-day mourning and "buried" an empty coffin. Thanks to Paulus's "paternal care", only 91 German soldiers survived until captivity. In August 545, he was recruited by the Chekists (nicknamed Satrap) and even spoke at the Nuremberg trials.
    3. +1
      9 November 2016 21: 26
      Quote: Alexander Green
      This is the most shameful fact in the Great Patriotic War.

      I do not agree that the most shameful. Remember the Myasnoy Bor, the 2nd Shock Army, Vlasov, the Rzhev "meat grinder", "I was killed near Rzhev" by Tvardovsky, the battles on the Mius-front and not only. The Sevastopol tragedy against the general background of the Second World War is one of many. War! Damn her! Remember and draw conclusions.
  18. +3
    7 November 2016 13: 43
    War forces you to think differently. Suppose, Petrov, Oktyabrsky, the Military Councils of the Primorsky Army and the COF, the headquarters and directorates of the army and navy would have remained to fight with the units "to the last opportunity". The entire high command heroically perished or would be captured. It was beneficial only to our enemies. Oktyabrsky was not only the commander of the SOR, but also the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, and this, in fact, the fleet itself, warships and ships. This is a large and complex naval economy. Five to seven naval bases, almost as many as in the Baltic and Northern Fleets combined, naval aviation (Black Sea Air Force). Ship repair facilities, medical services (treatment of the wounded), ammunition depots (shells, bombs, mines, torpedoes, ammunition), fleet technical management, IIAs, hydrography, etc., which Oktyabrsky promptly removed from Sevastopol to the Caucasus at the direction of Headquarters as early as October 1941 With the loss of Sevastopol, the story did not end


    How easy it is to "write off" the war and the circumstances of the 78000 lives of the defenders of Sevastopol.
    It is easy to say - these are needed for a future war - they will still come in handy, but let these ones get out on their own, they will not be able - well, such a fate ...

    If everyone thought so, our military academies would teach only "our heroic victories."
    Thank God, literate, sober-minded officers also teach at the academies, who also give an analysis to our defeats.

    The impression that the article is more about justifying a grandfather who successfully left Sevastopol on a plane and justifying the leadership who abandoned the defending troops was something like that.

    Oktyabrsky or Petrov do not deserve any excuse.
    That is why the fleet is a fleet to organize support, landing or evacuation of troops. - The Black Sea Fleet was poorly organized, even worse prepared for these operations. The stereotyped tactics of "raiding" operations - all that "distinguished Oktyabrsky as a naval commander.
    Fleet Commander - First of all, he must be a strategist! And not the supply manager, who is responsible for both the base and the warehouses. You are Victor - reflected your misunderstanding of the essence of the role of fleet commander.

    I do not put a plus article, just because you are trying to justify the command in the failure of the evacuation - that it was impossible to resist the Italian boatmen? The loss of initiative at the World Cup with overwhelming superiority in forces is what distinguished the fleet during the Oktyabrsky command ...
    1. +2
      7 November 2016 20: 36
      "Grandfather's Justification" is not grandfather, but father. and not "who successfully left ...", but who was successfully evacuated among the wounded. What is the justification? That he did not die, but survived and liberated Sevastopol? The article does not justify anyone, and I do not try to convince anyone of anything. I'm just telling how it was, based on facts and documents, without political touch-up. And is this article "about our heroic victories"? Oktyabrsky is not a supply manager, but he is the commander of the FLEET (!), And this is not only Sevastopol. And the commander of the SOR is his responsible, but still non-standard position. And he was not ready to fight on land. I agree that he was not the best fleet commander. I am writing about this in the full format of the article. And what about the Italians? The main blockade forces are Richthofen's Luftwaffe (8 AK). If earlier 4-6 aircraft of Manstein's army aviation (against the sun) flew into the ship only during the day, then with the arrival of 8 AK they began to fly in 12-16 aircraft from 4 sides and at night too.
      1. +2
        8 November 2016 08: 57
        Quote: ksanich
        I agree that he was not the best comflot. In the full format of the article I am writing about this. And what about the Italians? The main blockade forces are the Richthofen Luftwaffe (8 AK).


        It’s good that you understand this - many still write articles that praise the artillery cruisers of the post-war construction of the 68K 68-Bis series, giving them the place to cover landing operations and support the ground forces.
        So if in a situation with an attempt to evacuate the Sevastopol UR, an attack group of such cruisers were involved, then the result would be the same - loss or damage to ships and unsuccessful evacuation.
        I would like to ask: so what the hell and after the war, after a complete fiasco of large ships at the World Cup, they built a useless series of artillery LKRs that were not able to fulfill the tasks that they were set - anti-landing operations, evacuation, landing support! (is it under the blows of ground-based aviation ?!
        I believe that besides Kuznetsov’s understanding of the necessary development of the fleet, the highest command staff of the fleet remained the same mediocrities like Oktyabrsky, who did not draw the slightest conclusion from the results of the war at the World Cup, the Pacific Ocean with the Allies or the Northern Fleet.
        1. 0
          8 November 2016 14: 41
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Quote: ksanich
          I agree that he was not the best comflot. In the full format of the article I am writing about this. And what about the Italians? The main blockade forces are the Richthofen Luftwaffe (8 AK).


          It’s good that you understand this - many still write articles that praise the artillery cruisers of the post-war construction of the 68K 68-Bis series, giving them the place to cover landing operations and support the ground forces.
          So if in a situation with an attempt to evacuate the Sevastopol UR, an attack group of such cruisers were involved, then the result would be the same - loss or damage to ships and unsuccessful evacuation.
          I would like to ask: so what the hell and after the war, after a complete fiasco of large ships at the World Cup, they built a useless series of artillery LKRs that were not able to fulfill the tasks that they were set - anti-landing operations, evacuation, landing support! (is it under the blows of ground-based aviation ?!
          I believe that besides Kuznetsov’s understanding of the necessary development of the fleet, the highest command staff of the fleet remained the same mediocrities like Oktyabrsky, who did not draw the slightest conclusion from the results of the war at the World Cup, the Pacific Ocean with the Allies or the Northern Fleet.

          Not certainly in that way. The result would be a strategic disaster. There would be a complete loss of large ships (count the fleet) along with the army on it, 80 thousand people. (if the Germans were allowed to dive). All approaches to the GVMB were densely mined since June 1941, and the narrow passages (FVK) were long ago shot by German artillery and known to aviation. As Oktyabrsky said: ... "We lost the army, then we saved the fleet." With the loss of the fleet, we (the USSR) would have lost our strategic dominance in the Black Sea. Nothing would have deterred Turkey from entering the war on the side of Germany. The Germans would be able to freely carry out the transfer of troops by sea to the Caucasus. We would have lost the ability to conduct amphibious operations. How they were carried out and questions of the development of the fleet is a topic for another conversation.
  19. +1
    8 November 2016 00: 01
    ,,, each parent will save their children, Petrov.YU. And fought with dignity, was wounded ,,
    1. +2
      8 November 2016 15: 54
      Lt. Col. Petrov, Yuri Ivanovich, died in Ashgabat, fulfilling his military duty.
  20. +4
    8 November 2016 21: 16
    Why in the future should there be only evacuation? And the continuation of the defense of the city? Sevastopol could continue to fight, there was enough ammunition in the army and navy arsenals, besides, underground plants worked intensively, and on June 27, when the command of the defensive area sent panic telegrams to Moscow, a fresh brigade of marines arrived in Sevastopol.

    Oktyabrsky failed to defend Sevastopol. He did nothing to destroy the Germans who crossed the river in inflatable boats from the North, although those besides small arms had nothing. And he hid behind this, reporting to Moscow that allegedly street battles were already going on in Sevastopol. This is, to put it mildly, criminal negligence.

    Oktyabrsky writes that they lost the army, but retained the fleet. I'm not sure if you can compare 78 thousand lives with iron boxes, which then were practically inactive, except for the "mosquito" and submarine fleet.

    Oktyabrsky was given the go-ahead to transfer the headquarters of the fortified area, and not the evacuation of "useful crew members." In Moscow, they were sure that General Petrov, who was also mentioned in a telegram, would continue the defense of Sevastopol ...
    1. +1
      9 November 2016 21: 09
      Quote: Alexander Green
      Oktyabrsky failed to defend Sevastopol. He did nothing to destroy the Germans who crossed the river in inflatable boats from the North, although those besides small arms had nothing.

      Read the article and comments, do not repeat your confusion! On rubber boats, these are only "pioneers" - the shock squad. Assault boats (about 100), BDB and even 2 ferries went longer. Two divisions were ferried. Let in an incomplete composition, at least half - this is already 16 people. Moreover, the 000nd division - special forces of the Airborne Forces type, selected grenadiers! Troitskaya, Georgievskaya, Sushilnaya, Volovya leaked through the beams. The fiercest battles for the heights of Suzdal, Inkerman, Malakhov Kurgan, on the Ship side, in this side (sector 22) we had little strength. All were on the main lines where the Germans were advancing along the entire front and delivering powerful blows with artillery and aviation. This was Manstein's calculation. The blow was in the back. The defenses were hacked and the Germans and Romanians broke through the front lines. Separate centers of resistance were surrounded by a second wave of German troops and if the fighters failed to break through, they were destroyed. Organized units (except 4 SD Novikov) by the end of June 109 did not exist anymore! When retreating, they blew up what they had in time. Only the ammunition that could be carried away. Now, I hope there will be no stupid questions? And in general it's time to sum up: As Oktyabrsky said: "We have lost the army, but we have retained the fleet." Although the army was not completely lost. Some of the fighters went prisoner and returned to the ranks of the spacecraft, many fled and fought underground and in the partisans. Otherwise, they would have been destroyed when loaded onto ships or at sea along with ships. 30. The Black Sea Fleet retained domination of the Black Sea. 1. Due to which, despite all the efforts of Hitler, Turkey did not dare to enter the war on the side of Germany. 2. Manstein's plan "Sturgeon fishing" did not work completely. He took the fortress, captured the army, but did not destroy the fleet. 3. The Primorskaya Army was re-formed under the command of Petrov, as a Separate Primorskaya Army (on the front), fought heroically, liberating the Caucasus, Taman and Crimea. 4. The Black Sea Fleet and the Navy Air Force solved the tasks set by the Headquarters, also liberated the Caucasus and Crimea, prevented the 5 Wehrmacht armies from evacuating from the Crimea by sinking 17 ships and 191 German soldiers and officers. And there is no need to fight with history, and try to remake it, whatever it is, for this is HISTORY.
      1. +3
        10 November 2016 00: 49
        Dear, the story cannot be redone. There is a well-known fact: during the defense of Sevastopol, fathers-commanders threw hundreds of thousands of subordinates to their own devices. It does not alter or refute. But how to evaluate it is already in our competence.
        You have the "Titanic" syndrome, which rescued first-class passengers and locked them in the holds of the poor fellows of the third and fourth classes, so you divide people into useful and not useful. Yes, the soldier, protecting the commander, covers him from the bullet, but this is in battle. But the same soldier will never forgive his commander who abandoned him in battle.
        1. +1
          10 November 2016 22: 44
          Quote: Alexander Green
          you divide people into useful and not useful.

          Not at all. I do not consider myself entitled to blame or divide someone into useful and not very good, good or bad, heroes or traitors. For "Judge not, lest you be judged." I'm trying to explain that Petrov (as a land general) and naval admiral Oktyabrsky (who understands little about land defense), failed to unravel the plan of Manstein (who was considered the best strategist of the Third Reich) and what happened happened. The army was defeated, the ORGANIZED defense ceased to exist and was closed on June 30.6, 1942. at 16.45. in accordance with the Directive of the Supreme Command Rate No. 170470. I am only setting out historical facts. Without political touch-up, given the mentality and realities of that time. The actions of the SOR command of the Supreme Command Headquarters and Stalin were assessed as the only correct one in a wartime situation. Otherwise, it is clear what fate might await them. He said "... we have no Hindenburgs in reserve ..." and indeed, in the summer of 1942 the situation at the fronts was catastrophic, the fate of our people was being decided. The soldier could still be recruited, but where to get so many generals? And general evacuation in that particular situation was PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. To argue from the point of view of a modern man in the street by the standards of peacetime, in my opinion, is pure profanation. And to understand and relate to the events of that time in one way or another is the choice of everyone.
      2. 0
        4 March 2017 12: 51
        By the way, due to the panic of the same October, back in September of the 1941 of the year (the Germans didn’t smell of Crimea in the Crimea), almost 50% of the ammunition from the Black Sea Fleet's arsenals was exported to the Caucasus. And then, with huge losses during the defense, it was carried back under shelling and bombing! It was the lack of ammunition that led to the fall of the city. If 305-mm shells for 30 and 35 batteries were enough - the basis of defense, the city would still hold on. But the shells ran out - and - EVERYTHING !! By the way, with shells for batteries of smaller calibers was the same. First, on a panicky order, Oktyabrsky was taken out, then they were brought back under the bombs ...
      3. 0
        4 March 2017 12: 54
        Tell us where in the Sevastopol Bay appeared at the time of the fighting German BDB ??? Have you seen this "barge" with three or four "aht-ahtah" on board? German sappers dragged them to the shores of the North Bay, or did they unfold with flags in full dress from the sea to the Sevastopol bays ??? Is the same question about ferries?
  21. +1
    9 November 2016 22: 08
    Quote: Ivan Tartugay
    Never will a general cost an army of privates. This, together with the rank and file, he is a general, without the rank and file he is no longer a general.

    Do you not understand that an army without a commander (general) is an armed uncontrollable crowd? Take away the man’s head and he will die. Deprive hands or feet - he can survive if his head is in order. And if it is torn to pieces - arms, legs, guts out? Will die. Do not go to a fortuneteller! Whatever the head. So it is here. Fights are everywhere, spontaneous. There is no front line. Separate groups, the remnants of companies, battalions, retreating, beating surrounded. From the first days of the war, the Germans primarily destroyed headquarters, CP, nodes and communication lines. It takes time to restore them. This is the army! Can you imagine the scale? And how to recover, with whom? KP destroyed, many commanders died or retreat, firing. From above continuously bombs and shells, explosions, smoke, fire. People are crazy! You look now, the man looks like a steep amball, and a firecrack slammed nearby - the diapers are already wet. But talk about the war is taken.
  22. 0
    4 March 2017 12: 41
    “Tovarisch” Oktyabrsky after the war on the stage of the Sevastopol DOF received in the face from a veteran from among those abandoned by him in Sevastopol. With the strong support of the hall. More about the "tovarischa": 1943 year landing on Eltigen (2-th liberation of Kerch) - landed, heroically fights and remains without the support of the fleet, blocked from the sea (!!!) by German ships !!! What is it like??? On the Black Sea "Tirpitz" appeared ??? We will not talk about the range of Soviet aviation (tea is not flying to Sevastopol from the Kuban !!!) is quite within reach! And where is the Black Sea Fleet ??? It is in Poti when the paratroopers without ammunition, the evacuation of the wounded are fighting, pressed to the sea! And who is blocking them from the sea ??? German BDB, Italian boats and German "hunters" !!! Awesome power !!! One destroyer would be enough to disperse this whole pack. And what the “comrade” Oktyabrsky does to save the landing - (I remind you, it’s already 1943 a year in the yard) - but does nothing !!! The landing party, having abandoned the wounded (and what the Germans did with them, I do not need to describe, I think!) Made their way to Kerch on Mount Mithridates, where they had already waited for our troops, and all this from the criminal inaction of Oktyabrsky !!! So do not justify this "atmiral"
  23. 0
    4 July 2017 19: 51
    the author read the recollections of other privates and sailors abandoned at Cape Chersonese ?! And there are those when, after the war, in the Sevastopol DOF (House of Officers) at the conference, Admiral Oktyabrsky received in the face from a veteran, under the approval of the whole hall ?! There are such memories! More .... and then what? Autumn 1943 year an attempt to liberate the Crimea, landing on Eltigen. The landing party is conducting heroic battles, but there is no support, since the German fleet (where did it come from?) Blocks (???) the shore. Is there a Tirpitz trampling? Or boats and, as a maximum, BDB (large landing barges) ??? And where is the Black Sea Fleet led by the "talented" atmiral ??? It is absent! Neither the battleship, nor the cruisers, nor the destroyers came and dispersed the "German fleet" ... you don’t have to bleat about the Luftwaffe, firstly, not far from Tamani and the fighters could easily cover the landing area from the "Junkers", etc., in Secondly, in the battle of the Kuban, our Stalinist falcons won air supremacy. Our ace Pokryshkin just here and became famous. So what? WHERE THE FLEET ?! But dumb .... The history of the landing, when the guys made a breakthrough to Kerch due to hopelessness, leaving the wounded on the bridgehead (I can imagine what the Germans did with them) can be read in any literature. That was the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, and Stalin took it off not on a whim, but for specific misses. I am generally silent about the landing of the main landing at Novorossiysk. Small land - auxiliary landing and fully merit Caesar Kunikov.

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