As the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet battleship "Empress Maria" died

100 years ago, on October 20, 1916, in Sevastopol on one of the most modern Russian ships fleet, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet battleship "Empress Maria", there was an explosion of a powder cellar, after which the ship sank.

There could be much more victims if during the explosion that occurred in the battleship's nose gun turret the crew did not stand on the deck praying. In addition, some of the officers were on shore leave. "Empress Maria" was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, where the Vice-Admiral A. V. Kolchak, commander of the Black Sea Fleet, was at the time of going to sea.

In a telegram from Kolchak to Tsar Nicholas II, it was reported: "Your imperial majesty is most grateful:" Today is at 7 hour. 17 min. the battleship "Empress Maria" died in the roadstead of Sevastopol. In 6 hour. 20 min. There was an internal explosion of the nasal cellars and a fire of oil began. Immediately began flooding the rest of the cellars, but to some it was impossible to penetrate because of the fire. The explosions of the cellars and oil continued, the ship gradually got into a nose and at 7 an hour. 17 min. overturned. Saved a lot, the number of them turns out. "

A special commission was set up to investigate the tragedy, but she could not figure out the causes of the explosion. Until now, historians have no single opinion about the cause of the tragedy: whether it was a diversion or just a tragic accident.

prehistory

In the First World War, the enemy of the Russian Empire on the Black Sea was the German-Turkish fleet. Before the war, the Black Sea Fleet in all respects had complete superiority over the Turkish naval forces. Our fleet was superior to the enemy in terms of the number of pennants, firepower, combat training, officers and sailors, etc. It consisted of: the 6 battleships of the old type (so-called battleships, or dodrednownuts) - the flagship of the fleet "Evstafy "," John Chrysostom "," Panteleimon "(the former" Prince Potyomkin-Tavrichesky ")," Rostislav "," Three Saints "," Sinop "; 2 Bogatyr type cruisers, 17 destroyers, 12 destroyers, 4 submarines. The main base was Sevastopol, the fleet had its own shipyards in Sevastopol and Nikolaev. The 4 was built by powerful modern battleships (dreadnoughts): “Empress Maria”, “Empress Catherine the Great”, “Emperor Alexander III”, “Emperor Nicholas I”.

The Turks had only a few more or less combat-ready ships: the 2 armored cruisers “Medgidiye” and “Gamidiye”, the 2 squadron battleship “Torgut Reis” and “Hayreddin Barbarossa” (the battleships of the “Brandenburg” type), the 8 fighters of the French destroyers, and the Xydin Barbarossa battleships (Brandenburg type battleships), the XNUMX fighters, and the French destroyers. At the same time, the Ottomans practically did not have their own shipbuilding industry, there was not enough money, no naval personnel, there was no military training, discipline was low. Before the war, the Turkish government tried to update the fleet by ordering new ships in France and England. But the war with Italy, the two Balkan wars and the beginning of the First World War thwarted these plans. There was no money in the treasury, and the British confiscated the ships that were built in England for their own benefit.

As a result, the withdrawal of the Turkish fleet from the Bosphorus Strait to the battle with the Russian fleet was in principle impossible. However, although the Black Sea Fleet was significantly stronger than the Turkish naval forces, it was forced to stand idle. In St. Petersburg, they were afraid to provoke Turkey’s entry into the war on the side of Germany and gave instructions to avoid aggressive actions that could cause a war with the Ottoman Empire. Although the experience of the war with the Japanese showed the erroneousness of passive tactics, the tsarist government, after 10 years, “attacked the same rake,” the fleet commander A. A. Ebergard was bound by government directive.

Meanwhile, Germany has changed the balance of power on the Black Sea. 10 August 1914, two newest German cruisers arrived in Turkey: the heavy Geben (called the Sultan Selim) and the light Breslau (Midilli). The commander of the German Mediterranean Division, Rear Admiral V. Souchon, led the combined German-Turkish forces. “Goeben” was more powerful than any old type Russian battleship, but together the Russian battleships would have destroyed it. Therefore, in a collision with the entire squadron, “Goeben” left, using its high speed. Under pressure from Germany, the Turkish "military party" took up, and the Ottoman Empire decided to go to war.

29-30 in October the German-Turkish fleet delivered an artillery strike on Sevastopol, Odessa, Feodosia and Novorossiysk. This event received the name - "Sevastopol wake-up." Thus, the fighting in the Black Sea began unexpectedly for the Russian Empire. The Black Sea Fleet was taken by surprise by the enemy. However, the German-Turkish forces could not do much harm to the Russian fleet: the forces were dispersed, and there was not enough firepower.

Almost immediately, the Russian fleet made a return “visit”: the fire of the Cahul cruiser destroyed the huge coal storages in Zonguldak (Zunguldak), and the battleship Panteleimon and the destroyers sank several enemy troop transporters and minesweepers. In addition, the destroyers under the cover of the battleships laid mines near the Bosporus. In November, the Russian squadron enters the search for enemy ships, shells Trabzon and encounters German cruisers on the way back. The battle at Cape Sarych 18 in November 1914 was reduced to a shootout between the battleship Evstafy and Geben. Both ships were damaged ("Goeben" had to be put on repairs). The Germans could not fight with the entire brigade of Russian battleships and, taking advantage of the speed, the German cruisers were able to break away from the Russian squadron and leave.

In December, the Goeben exploded on a Russian mine near the Bosphorus Strait, the area of ​​the port side was 64 square. meter, and right - 50 square. meters, "sipped water" from 600 to 2000 tons. Specialists from Germany had to be called in for repair, the restoration work was basically completed by April 1915. However, at the very end of 1914, 5 of German submarines crossed the Mediterranean from the Mediterranean, which complicated the situation at the Black Sea theater.

In 1915, the Black Sea Fleet consistently increased its advantage: the Russian squadron made trips to enemy shores, artillery strikes were made at Zonguldak, Trabzon and other ports. Dozens of enemy steamboats, sailing ships with military cargoes were sunk. Destroyers began to be used for reconnaissance of Turkish routes, hydroaviation, Russian submarines began to patrol the area of ​​the Bosphorus.

In early April, 1915 failed the plan of the German-Turkish command to attack Odessa. It was assumed that Odessa will become the base for the Russian troops (Bosphorus operation) and Sushon wanted to destroy the Russian transports. However, the case was spoiled by Russian minefields. The cruiser "Medzhidiye" hit a mine. He did not drown completely, it was too small a depth. The crew removed the destroyers. The German-Turkish detachment retreated. In the summer the Turkish cruiser raised. In Odessa, they carried out an initial repair, then in Nikolaev a major overhaul, re-equipped and a year later in June 1916, the ship entered the Black Sea Fleet, like the Prut. As part of the fleet, he participated in several operations, in May 1918 was captured by the Germans, transferred to the Turks, and there, thanks to Russian repairs, he served in the service of the Turkish fleet right up to the 1947 year.

Plan for the Bosphorus Operation

After the Crimean War in the Russian Empire, they worked out various options for waging war with Turkey. After the Russian-Turkish war 1877-1877 it became finally clear that we need a strong fleet. It is extremely difficult to take Istanbul by land forces alone: ​​too long a distance from the Danube and the Caucasus to the Ottoman capital, besides being protected by strong fortresses and natural barriers. Therefore, with the revival of the Black Sea Fleet, the idea of ​​a Bosporus operation arose. The idea was tempting - to decapitate the old enemy with one blow and to realize the century Russian dream, to return the ancient Constantinople-Constantinople to the bosom of the Orthodox Christian world.

To implement this plan, a powerful armored fleet was needed, an order of magnitude stronger than the Turkish naval forces. The fleet was built from 1883, armadillos of the “Empress Catherine the Great” type were laid, the 4 ship was built in total, and two of them participated in the First World War. In addition, the navy and the Volunteer Fleet (for the transport of troops) were intensively developed. Armadillos had, if necessary, to crush the enemy fleet and smash land fortifications, batteries.

The idea of ​​the operation returned during the First World War. The appearance of the German ships pushed back these plans. When Russia's allies launched the Dardanelles operation (February 1915 of the year), plans to seize the Bosporus resumed. The Russian fleet systematically conducted demonstrative actions against the Bosphorus. If the Allies succeeded in the Dardanelles, the Black Sea Fleet would have to occupy the Bosphorus. Russian troops were forced to Odessa, a demonstrative load on the transports was carried out. Vigorous activity created the appearance of preparing a large-scale landing operation. However, before the commissioning of new battleships, the success of this operation was in doubt. In addition, the German 1915 offensive of the year did not allow for the allocation of large forces for the operation.

Real opportunity only appeared in 1916. The Caucasian Front conducted a successful Erzerum operation, taking the largest Turkish stronghold and base in the Caucasus, and then succeeded in other battles. The southwestern front successfully launched the Lutsk operation (Brusilovsky breakthrough), the Austro-Hungarian troops suffered a heavy defeat. German troops were tied up on the French front by heavy fighting at Verdun, and then on the Somme. The Russian Headquarters had the opportunity to allocate power for the landing. In addition, as part of the Black Sea Fleet, there were now two newest dreadnought - "Empress Maria" and "Empress Catherine the Great", which neutralized the "Geben".

In general, from this time on, the Russian fleet gained a great superiority over the enemy; it constantly bombarded the Turkish coast. With the advent of new submarines in the fleet, including a minelayer such as the "Crab", it became possible to cross the enemy's communications with the help of them. The novelty of the Russian fleet was the interaction of submarines and destroyers of the destroyers, which increased the effectiveness of the blockade of the Bosphorus and the coal regions of Turkey.

Thus, in 1915, the Black Sea Fleet strengthened its superiority and almost completely controlled the sea. Three brigades of battleships were formed, destroyer forces were active, submarine forces and naval forces were increasing their combat experience aviation. Conditions were created for the Bosphorus operation.

1916 year

In 1916, Russia received a number of unpleasant "surprises" at the Black Sea theater: 14 (27) of August Romania entered the war on the side of the Entente, but since its armed forces were highly questionable in combat capability, they had to be strengthened by Russian troops. The Black Sea Fleet now assisted an ally from the Balkan coast and the Danube. The underwater threat to the fleet intensified, the German submarine forces in the Black Sea grew to 10 submarines. The Black Sea Fleet did not have anti-submarine defense, so it had to be built on the approaches to Sevastopol.

Also, the Black Sea Fleet continued to solve the previous tasks: blocked the Bosphorus; supported the right flank of the advancing Caucasian front; violated the enemy’s maritime communications; defended his bases and communications from the enemy’s underwater forces; supported the Russian and Romanian troops.

One of the main tasks was considered blockade of the strait. Using the mine experience of the Baltic Fleet, it was decided to close the Bosphorus mine. From July 30 to August 10, a mine-fencing operation was carried out, 4 barriers were delivered, only about 900 min. Until the end of the year, more 8 mines were installed, with the task of strengthening the main barrier and blocking coastal waters (for interfering with small vessels and submarines). For the protection of minefields from minesweepers, a patrol of destroyers and submarines was established. In the minefields, the enemy lost several warships, submarines, dozens of transports. The mine blockade violated Turkish shipping, Istanbul began to experience difficulties in providing food and fuel. But the complete blockade of the Bosphorus failed to be implemented.

The Black Sea Fleet also actively supported the Caucasian Front. The ships supported the ground forces with artillery, landed distracting landings, sabotage groups, covered them from a possible strike from the sea, and carried out supplies of supplies and reinforcements. The transport of troops and supplies was carried out by a special transport flotilla (in 1916, the 90 ships). The ships of the Black Sea Fleet supported our troops during the Erzerum and Trapezund operations.

"Empress Maria" in 1916 year

Battleship Death

The ship was laid in 1911 in Nikolaev at the same time with the same type of battleship "Emperor Alexander III" and "Empress Catherine the Great". The ship was named after the widowed empress Maria Feodorovna, wife of the late Emperor Alexander III. He was launched on 6 on October 1913 of the year, arrived in Sevastopol on 30 on June 1915 of the year.

13-15 October 1915, the battleship covered the actions of the 2-th brigade of battleships in the Zonguldak area. In November, 1915 covered the 2 brigade from the sea during the shelling of Varna and Euxinograd. From February 5 to April 18 assisted the Trabzon operation. During the hostilities, it became clear that the battleships of the "Empress Maria" type justified the hopes placed on them. During the first year of service, the ship made 24 combat trips, sank quite a few Turkish ships.

In the summer of 1916, by decision of the Supreme Commander, the Black Sea Fleet was headed by Vice Admiral Alexander Kolchak. The admiral made the "Empress Maria" the flagship of the fleet and systematically went on it at sea. Having laid a glorious initiative, in the fall of 1916, the battleship was installed in the Sevastopol preventive maintenance raid. However, this autumn has become fatal for the "Empress Maria".

October morning 20 1916 of the year did not foreshadow trouble, began a normal day. Above the North Bay every day was a wake to the crews of ships. On the battleship, everything went according to a certain usual routine. Suddenly in 6 hour. 20 min. the neighborhood shook a powerful blast.

Captain 2 of rank A.Lukin wrote: “In the washbasin, putting the heads under the taps, the team snorted and splashed, when a terrible blow slammed under the bow tower, knocking down half the people. The fire jet, enveloped in poisonous gases of yellow-green flame, burst into the room, instantly turning the life that prevailed here just into a pile of dead, burned bodies ... " The terrible force of a new explosion tore a steel mast. Like a coil, threw armored cabin to the sky. A nosy fireman on duty blew up. The ship plunged into darkness. The ship was burning, bodies lay in heaps. In some casemates stuck people barricaded with an avalanche of fire. Come out - burn. Stay - drown. Torn cellars 130-millimeter shells. Within an hour, another 25 explosion occurred. The crew fought for its ship to the last, many heroes died trying to put out the fire.

The frightened Sevastopol ran to the embankment and witnessed a terrible picture. Standing in the raid in his native bay, the battleship "Empress Maria" was dying. The ship lurched on the starboard side, rolled over and sank. The wounded were located right on the beach and were given first aid there. There was black smoke above the city. By the evening, the size of the disaster became known: 225 seafarers died, 85 was seriously injured (sources cite various figures). So, the most powerful ship of the Black Sea fleet was lost. It was the largest loss of the Russian Imperial Navy for all the years of the First World War.

Tragedy shook the entire Russian Empire. The commission of the Maritime Ministry, headed by a military officer, a member of the Admiralty Council, Admiral N. M. Yakovlev, took up the causes of the ship’s death. A well-known shipbuilder, one of the authors of the project of the Black Sea battleships, an associate of Admiral S. O. Makarov, academician A. N. Krylov, who made a conclusion, which was approved by all members of the commission, became a member of the commission. Three major versions of the death of the battleship were put forward: 1) self-ignition of gunpowder; 2) negligence in handling fire or gunpowder; 3) malicious intent.

The commission was inclined to the second version (negligence), since the gunpowder was, in the opinion of all the battleship gunners, high-quality. As for malicious intent, the commission considered this version unlikely. Although violations were found in the rules for access to artillery cellars and lack of control over the workers on the ship. The Commission noted: "... On the battleship" Empress Maria "there were significant deviations from the statutory requirements for access to the artillery range. In particular, many of the hatches of the tower did not have locks. During the stay in Sevastopol, representatives of various factories worked on the battleship. Familial checking by craftsmen was not made ... ". As a result, none of the hypotheses put forward by the commission found sufficient facts to confirm.

In addition, the Sevastopol gendarme department and the counterintelligence of the Black Sea Fleet Main Headquarters, initiated by the sailors at the end of 1915, were investigating the causes of the explosions. But they could not reach the true cause of the death of the flagship. The revolutionary events finally stopped the investigation.

Already in 1916, work began on raising the ship, according to the project proposed by A. Krylov. The ship was raised in 1918 year and taken to the dock. However, in the conditions of civil war and revolutionary chaos, the ship was never restored. In 1927, it was pulled.

Battleship Empress Maria after docking and pumping water, 1919 year

Versions

Already in the Soviet period, it became known that Germany was closely watching all changes in the Russian fleet, including the new dreadnoughts. In Berlin, they feared that the Russians would take Constantinople, where the battleships were to play a decisive role in breaking through the Turkish defense. In the 1933 year, during the investigation of sabotage at the Nikolaev shipyard, the Stalinist Chekists discovered a network of German intelligence headed by V.E. Verman. The main task of the German spies was the disruption of the shipbuilding program of the military and merchant fleet of the USSR.

During the investigation, many interesting details came to light, dating back to the pre-revolutionary period. Verman himself was a scout with experience (he was a senior electrical engineer), he began his work back in 1908, when a large-scale Russian fleet restoration program began. The network covered all the major cities of the Black Sea, with particular attention being paid to Odessa, Nikolaev, Sevastopol and Novorossiysk. The group included many well-known people in the city (even the mayor of Nikolaev, a certain Matveyev), and most importantly, the engineers of the shipyard Sheffer, Lipke, Feoktistov and electrical engineer Sgibnev. In the early thirties, some members of the espionage group were arrested. During the investigation, they spoke about involvement in the explosion on the battleship. Direct perpetrators of sabotage - Feoktistov, Sgibnev and Verman - were to receive a “fee” on 80 thousand rubles in gold, and the head of the group, Verman, also the Iron Cross.

During the interrogation, Werman reported that German intelligence planned sabotage on the battleship, and led the saboteur group Helmut von Stitgoff. He was considered the best specialist in the field of mining and undermining ships. In the summer of 1916, Helmut Von Stitgoff began working at the Nikolaev shipyard as an electrician. It was planned to blow up the battleship right in the shipyard. However, something broke. Stitgoff urgently turned off the operation and left for Germany. But Verman's group continued to work independently and did not curtail its activities, it had the opportunity to access the battleship. Stitgoff command redeployed to the next task. In 1942, the honored saboteur of Germany von Stitgoff was shot by the secret police. The trail leading to the death of the battleship "Empress Maria" was erased.

In addition, there is a British trail. On the night before the giant's death, Commander Voronov was on duty at the main tower. His duties were: inspection and measurement of the temperature of the artillery cellar. This morning, the captain of the 2 rank, Gorodyskiy, was also on combat duty on the ship. At dawn, Gorodissky ordered his Voronov to measure the temperature in the cellar of the main tower. Voronov went down to the cellar and nobody saw him again. And after a while the first explosion thundered. The body of Voronov was never found among the bodies of the dead. The commission had suspicions about him, but there was no evidence and he was recorded as missing. Later it turned out that the lieutenant colonel of the British intelligence, John Haviland, and the commander of the battleship "Empress Maria" Voronov, apparently, is one and the same person. A British naval intelligence lieutenant served in Russia from 1914 to 1916, a week after the explosion, he left Russia and arrived in England as a lieutenant colonel. After the war, he retired, living the ordinary life of a rich gentleman. And in 1929, he died under strange circumstances.

Thus, it is possible that Germany was able to conduct a secret operation to eliminate the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet. Or our “partner” did it - Britain. As is well known, the British have long opposed the plans of Russia to seize the straits and Constantinople-Constantinople. It is known that in England, before all, a powerful reconnaissance and sabotage service appeared that waged a secret war against the rivals of the British Empire. The British elite could not allow the “shield of Oleg” to reappear at the gates of Constantinople. It would be the day of the collapse of the age-old machinations and intrigues of England against Russia. The straits were not supposed to go Russian at any cost.

The possibilities of English intelligence in Russia were no worse than the German ones; moreover, England often did her business by someone else’s hands. It is possible that the battleship was destroyed by the Germans, but with the secret support of the British. Given that the security service in the Russian Empire was poorly placed (in particular, high-ranking conspirators, Western agents and revolutionaries quietly prepared to overthrow the autocracy), and the weak organization of protection of important objects and structures was noted, .

Comments

[Lieutenant Teterin]

Article plus. The only thing I would like to note is that the passivity of St. Petersburg towards Turkey had quite clear reasons - the Turks hesitated and the war party did not have a significant advantage until the arrival of German ships, which, by the way, were "missed" by the British in the Mediterranean. But before that, there was a non-zero probability that Turkey would remain neutral.
PS I did not know about the fact of repairing the Turkish cruiser, special thanks to the author for the information. By the way, this fact dispels the Russophobic myth of the hopeless backwardness of old Russia - the tsarist engineers were able to repair the ship so that it served for another 31 years in the Turkish fleet ...

[Uncle Murzik]

The Russian Empire was a country of the so-called "second echelon" on a par with Austria-Hungary, Japan and Italy, which were delayed at the pre-industrial stage of development. The powerful powers were the USA, Great Britain, France and Germany, which in total accounted for in 1913. 72% of world industrial production. RI had only 6%. Awesome for a huge RI in its best year?
National income per capita in 1913 in Russia (in comparable prices in 1980) it was only $ 350, while in Japan - $ 700, in Germany, France and the UK - $ 1700, in the United States - $ 2325.
Data from the "World History", N.V. Zagladin, M., "The Russian word."

[bober1982]

Data from the "World History"..........
A textbook for high school, sample 1999., the source is doubtful.

[Uncle Murzik]

Well, for you, that the source is not in our veins to our liberals, everything is doubtful Russian factories and factories "owned" by the Russians were controlled from Belgium, France, England, and through, through. The Romanov elite squeezed the Russian capitalists by opening the "green street" to foreigners. Before the First World War, all railways in Russia were built on French francs, and led only to the borders of our empire, Oil and gold were seized by the Ingles.
In 16, our blessed Nikolenka, "The Tsar-Father and the Reliability of the Nation," came to his senses. When his allies in the Entente threw him down, then they began to hastily build "gigantic" enterprises.
Do you know? how many trucks should all Russian auto giants have to issue?
5600 pieces per year, plan for 18 years.
Our loving conspirators, so many cars delivered per day.

[bober1982]

And here are the trucks? article, and very good, about the death of a battleship.

[Uncle Murzik]

And again, back to industry. Remember on which aircraft Utochkin and Nesterov shone? Nieuport, Farman, Bristol-Bulldog, Sopwich, Fokker. England, France, Belgium ... but not Russia. For 1914-1917. only 94 "Ilya Muromets" were assembled, and the engines and devices were imported.

What about cars? Ford, Mercedes-Benz, Fiat, Renault, Peugeot. And where are the Russian companies that manufacture cars completely (from raw materials to the finished product), they are not.

German and Swedish turbines, English gyrocompasses and rangefinders were mounted on Russian destroyers, cruisers and battleships.

I’m analyzing Russia's lags in such detail in order not to savor them. No. I am no less proud of D.I. Mendeleev, K.E. Tsiolkovsky, many other talented scientists and engineers. I remember that the first diesels and motor ships were created in Kolomna, I remember that the destroyers of the Novik type and Russian steam locomotives were considered the reference, I remember that Russia is the birthplace of the radio, but, unfortunately, these were only rays of light in a general joyless the picture.

Recall that Mendeleev and Sechenov (the pride of Russia !!!) were balloted at the Academy of Sciences (if only they were Germans ...), the inventor of radio communications Popov remained a modest teacher at the naval school.

[Fotoceva62]

Trucks despite the fact that given the industrial deity of the then Russia, the British did not make sense to blow up the battleship, the capture of the straits by the then Black Sea Fleet was still fantastic.
The article is so-so, why is it not mentioned the disgusting organization on the ship of the Art Dozor service (what kind of patrol is it in one person?), Simplified access to the cellars (removed hatches, lack of locks, etc.). There is no mention of traces of the decomposition of gunpowder found on the powder belts, although this is in the commission report.
Personally, I am inclined to the version of German sabotage, especially considering the mess that was present on the ship with clearance and artisans on board, as well as the organization of service in warhead 2.
The battleship just really interfered with the Germans, now "uncle and nephew" ("Goeben" and "Breslau")
they couldn’t operate on the Black Sea with impunity. I repeat, if the service was organized on the ship in the present way, then the tragedy would not have happened. The ship is sorry, but it’s iron, but people can’t be returned and the “new women give birth” do not roll here ...

[Monarchist]

You are right: the Germans could have drowned "Maria". Most interested, and the British are unlikely

[Hapfri]

Russian factories and factories "owned" by the Russians were controlled from Belgium, France, England, and

We now have rulers running around the world with a desperate cry "Give investment" !!!! Investments are loans.
Why don't we build for example a shipbuilding plant for the production of tankers, or an electronic giant for the production of computers .... but it's simple. No money. Credits. Those loans that were carried on a silver platter to Nicholas II, on which the Trans-Siberian Railway was built.
All of modern China began its development with Western investment and technology. I saved up some money and began to release our own, and we could go this way. But we had a birth in the form of a revolution.

When his allies in the Entente threw him, then they began to hastily build "giant" enterprises

Skipped it. ... Ha.
Warehouses with supplies from England and America were from Murmansk to the horizon. From uniforms to trucks and guns.
The Russian army really did not conduct a large-scale offensive but confidently held the front.
But the "soyuznichki" just waged the whole war.
But then someone burry terribly wanted power

[Monarchist]

100% true: if it weren’t for the kaiser, the kayuk would be not 1918, before

[andrew42]

Here you forget that, in general, the Tsar was forced to abdicate in February 1917, and the "burr" you mentioned was then outside the Russian Empire. The performance of the Bolsheviks was a "control in the head", but by this time the Russian Empire was almost dead. Secondly, after the fact, almost everyone understands the tasks of the organizers of WWI - the destruction of European monarchies, the demolition of traditional elites, the economic and resource bleeding of continental Europe, bringing all these demorkats, liberals and other publics to power in European countries, as a fertile breeding ground for the growth of the Zionist programs - that very "Western plutocracy", gently but capaciously defined by the propaganda of the Stalin era. So, the stake was not on one "lamb", the stake was on all "democratic" movements in Russia - who would gnaw the necks of the two-headed eagle faster. The same Kerensky, who jumped into politics like a devil out of a snuffbox (a complete analogue of Yegor Gaidar / Chubais / Burbulis and Co.) - this one simply prepared EVERYTHING for the Bolsheviks. And such programs were not only in Russia - the Kaiser, as you remember, also lost everything. So there is no need to oversimplify the situation. There would be no "burr", there would be plenty of "bald" or "curly", if only he would lead the guys in leather jackets to the vacated warm noble places, steer the Russian goyim from there.

[Turist1996]

I support. Today, in general, they began to forget that in 1917 there were two revolutions: February and October. The first is purely bourgeois and it was then that the bourgeoisie overthrew the tsar. And now in the October bourgeoisie, under the ass, they gave a stirrer. And the tsar by that time was just a citizen Romanov, a former autocrat, and no longer a tsar. But it was not the Bolsheviks who banged him and his family .. From the 1990s, lies live that “on the orders of Lenin ..” In Yekaterinburg at that time there was no Bolshevik government and could not be.
By the way, the Yeltsin Center, probably because of that it turned out there. City of historical lies.

[Lieutenant Teterin]

Statistics is a very interesting thing. According to your figures, it turns out 2 million cars a year. If this is only deliveries to Russia, then where did these millions go? Why aren't there any references to these millions in any memoirs about WWI?
And if we talk about the real achievements of the Russian industry, here they are: "All the most submissive reports on the War Ministry" gives figures for the supply of 3-inch Russian-made shells to the army - in 1915 12,3 million shells, and in 1916 - 29,4 , 3 million shots. This means that the annual production of 1916-inch shells in 3 almost tripled, and the monthly production of 1915-inch shells from January 1916 to December 12 increased XNUMX times.
And the economic growth itself over the 3 war years was 21%. 21. Without repression and coercion.
As for engines, this is a new industry and it was just beginning to develop. In England, for example, in 1917 there were no tractors, and in America they were already widely used. Well, will you call England a backward country? And in the USSR in 1945 there were no fighter jets in service, while in England they were - is, in your opinion, a sign of the backwardness of the USSR?
I repeat, in traditional industries, like shipbuilding, everything was in order for RI, and an example of this is the Sevastopol series battleships or the Novik destroyers. As for new industries, such as the automotive industry, here, as in any new industry, there were leaders. In modern France, for example, laptops and tablets are not produced, the French buy them, but nobody calls France a second-tier country.

[Uncle Murzik]

once again for those bakers In 1909-1914. the British riveted 64 large surface ships, the Germans - 47, the French - 24, Italians - 16, Russia with attempts to finish and rebuild 10 surface ships of the class battleship-cruiser. And this despite the fact that in Russia military spending in 1908-1913gg. accounted for 32 - 33% of the total state budget

[Hapfri]

once again for those bakers In 1909-1914. the English riveted 64 large

Once again for collective farmers
The war was waged by Russia at the European Theater, where our country has limited water basins and large naval forces here to have nothing, moreover, expensive.
Russia had allies Britain, France and America, the world's largest naval powers with powerful fleets, the question is, why do we need to invest in shipbuilding in a war, having a huge land front?
By the way for collective farmers on trucks
Expand the reference book "Wehrmacht Cars". It indicates that in the late 30s and early 40s, and this is, after all, 20 years after the events in question, the level of truck production at such auto giants as Mercedes and MAN was 2-5 per year.
Only in the United States a lot of cars were produced, in Europe, even in highly developed countries, firms made several thousand cars a year. Except for Opel. But Opel - has American roots.

[Lieutenant Teterin]

Once again for fanatical Sovietophiles. Give the source, which indicates the number of 10 surface ships. I hope this will not be a short course in the history of the CPSU? It is clear that the number of ships built by Russia will be lower than that of England and Germany - England is an ocean country, her budget was sharpened for the needs of the fleet and the whole industry too. From the beginning of the 20th century, Germany took a course towards the confrontation of England - the Kaiser had priority over the fleet, plus the Germans had a higher population density than in Russia and the shorter logistic leverage from natural resource deposits to plants and from factories to shipyards - it’s purely logistically easier and cheaper was the development of industry. Russia did not have the goal of projecting naval power, and therefore the spending and size of the fleet were lower. Let me remind you that Russia also had a long land border, which required a considerable number of fortresses. For which, you know, money was also needed.
PS I certainly understand that in Soviet culture statistics figures have some intrinsic and almost magical significance, but nevertheless, I ask you to remember that the efficiency of an industry is determined not only by the volume of production, but also by the quality of products. The ships of the Imperial Navy were not inferior in quality to the British and German ones - just look at the same Noviks, the sailing data of which the Soviet cruisers could not surpass. Or to the battleships of the Sevastopol class, the propulsion system of which was more powerful than the British King George V, and the speed was 2 knots higher. To make it clearer, I will explain that the speed advantage gave significant tactical advantages, allowing you to break away from the enemy, or, on the contrary, catch up, imposing a battle in unfavorable conditions for him.

[Uncle Murzik]

Lieutenant Teterin you are mistaken about the Sovietophiles! "I am a hereditary nobleman! Nephew of Count Yusupov. Show you a certificate?" hf "Passport":

[moskowit]

Hereditary nobleman say ... And poke your opponent ... Moveton, darling, Moveton ...

[Aleksander]

Quote: Uncle Murzik

Russia, with attempts, completed and re-created 10 battleship-class surface ships

The Russian Empire built from 1909 to 1917. 11 battleships, 7 put into operation. The same "Empress Maria" began construction in 1912, launched in 1913.

The next regime could not build ANYONE, no matter how much it tried (the battleships "Soviet Union".
The only thing that managed to cut into metal got ...

[alexej123]

Murzik is an uncle. I like your comments, I just like it. But why, every time you use the concept of "bakers, bakers," for what?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

And if we talk about the real achievements of the Russian industry, here they are: "All the most submissive reports on the War Ministry" gives figures for the supply of 3-inch Russian-made shells to the army - in 1915 12,3 million shells, and in 1916 - 29,4 , 3 million shots. This means that the annual production of 1916-inch shells in 3 almost tripled, and the monthly production of 1915-inch shells from January 1916 to December 12 increased XNUMX times.

The ambush is that the army's 3 "shells produced by the industry were often not needed. For in the conditions of positional warfare, the front needed either 107-152-mm shells or 3" grenades. And the factories continued to drive 3 "shrapnel - at first 80% of the output, then they managed to reduce it to 50%.
It was these shrapnel shells that were then shot - right up to the 50s.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

As for engines, this is a new industry and it was just beginning to develop.

Tell me, is the production of machine guns a new industry too? "Maxim" has been in production for more than 10 years, and when it was necessary to increase production. then it suddenly became clear that in the entire "industrialized Russia" there is only one plant that can make machine guns - the same one that makes them. There are no more machines of the required accuracy in the Empire. And the Empire had to buy any available machine guns abroad - for Tula at the maximum gave only a third of the needs of the front.
Well, a little about the working conditions of the military-industrial complex of the Empire:

Without access lines, the Izhevsk Plant (the largest enterprise in the empire) used river routes during the navigation period. The access road to the Golyany pier on Kama - a 40-kilometer highway - in the summer during the rainy, autumn and spring became impassable. Traveling even in a light carriage to this distance could take 18 hours, and the transportation of goods stopped.

The Sestroretsk plant, like 20 years ago, was powered by water wheels. In the summer of 1915, the lack of water in the lake did not allow all the workshops to work at the same time, and only then did things "come to the replacement of water turbines, oil engines were installed."

[Hapfri]

Tell me, is machine gun production a new industry too?

So what are you attached to machine guns and shells
Lack of weapons and ammunition was in all countries. Yes, the Allies dealt with the deficit faster, then part of the arms were transferred to Russia as aid.
But the king entered the war in the Union with the two largest countries in the world and dealt only with a smaller part of the German army. It was a strategic success. The fact that Germany will lose was immediately clear, it was just a matter of time. The king correctly chose his companions.
But the world revolution did not happen and it was a strategic loss. The loss in the end of the whole of Russian civilization, in spite of any number of tanks, machine guns and shells. Whoever made them.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Hupfri

So what are you attached to machine guns and shells

Indeed, what little things: to get into the world war, being unable to provide the army with shells and weapons. Moreover, the farther - the more: the growth rate of front needs was higher than the rate of increase in production in Tula.
After all, I can also recall about rifles - according to which, first, before the war, stocks were reduced, and then rushed around the world, buying all kinds of recyclables.

Quote: Hupfri

But the king entered the war in the Union with the two largest countries in the world and dealt only with a smaller part of the German army. It was a strategic success. The fact that Germany will lose was immediately clear, it was just a matter of time. The king correctly chose his companions.

In just this, neither the Emperor nor the Empire was saved. Because Russia had to fight, too, and not just allies.
And the allies became angry that their aid to Russia had been lying in Arkhangelsk for months and didn’t reach the front, because the railroad could not even cope with domestic transportation. As a result, half of this assistance was ultimately destroyed by the allies themselves - at the end of the Intervention, during the retreat from the Russian North.

[Aleksander]

Quote: Alexey RA

get into world warnot being able to provide the army with shells and weapons

Russia "got into" WWII in the same way that it got into WWII, that is, it was attacked by the same aggressor.

No country I was not ready to provide my army properly, counting on a quick war, but Russia in 1916 already provided itself with weapons (its own and supplies of allies), other countries did this, indeed, faster. France and England also received weapons, ammunition and ammunition from the United States.

But Russia managed to provide itself and the army with food, while only in Germany starved 740 000 (!) thousand people
The countries of the Entente and A-Hungary were also starving.

Losses of Russia per thousand mobilized-the smallest among world powers.

Quote: Alexey RA

In only this did not save either the Emperor or the Empire

It is much harder to defend oneself from a blow to the back of the traitors who had taken the hardships transported to the country by the German invaders than from an external enemy.
Entente (and Russia as its main member) PMV won. Neither RI nor its successor to the Russian Republic "Act of National Treason"(Brest shame in the words of V.V. Putin), they did not sign. It was signed by the traitors and usurpers of power, the Bolsheviks, whom no one ever elected anywhere and did not instruct to sign anything.

[Hapfri]

Indeed, what little things: to get into the world war, being unable to provide the army with shells and weapons.

We had a choice to fit - not fit? Someone can ask us.
There was a choice either we are fighting in the Union with the largest and strongest powers, or we are still fighting, but already alone after the fall of France. Like Stalin fought.
The idea of ​​living space in the East was not invented by Hitler. Much much earlier
There are always few shells in any army. To conduct a defensive trench warfare, shells and guns by the 16th year were enough. Gradually giving away a little territory, exhausting the Germans in defensive battles.

In just this, neither the Emperor nor the Empire was saved. Because Russia had to fight, too, and not just allies.

You don’t understand something.
Russia is fighting - bad, not fighting - also bad. You already decide.
Nikolai made the only mistake - he showed criminal negligence in relation to political opponents.
We needed strict censorship and a police system that did not allow unrest in the army and the people.

[Uncle Murzik]

Here is another source, Mr. bober1982! First of all, Russia even lagged behind the USA, England, Germany and France in industrial production volumes. Its share in the total industrial production of the five powers listed above was only 4,2%. In world production in 1913, the share of Russia was 1,72%, the share of the USA - 20, England - 18, Germany - 9, France - 7,2% (these are all countries with a population 2-3 times smaller than Russia ) And this despite the fact that in Russia in 1913 there was a record (80 million tons) grain crop. In terms of per capita gross national product, Russia was inferior to the United States - 9,5 times, England - 4,5, Canada - 4, Germany - 3,5, France, Belgium, Holland, Australia, New Zealand, Spain - 3 times, Austria-Hungary - 2 times.

Russia not only "pulled away", but continued to lag behind - in 1913 its GNP correlated with the GNP of Germany as 3,3 to 10, while in 1850 the ratio was 4 to 10.

Volumes of industrial production in 1913:

Total, billion rubles per capita, rubles
USA 38,13 397,19
UK 15,5 336,96
Germany 12,4 182,35
France 10,54 263,5
Russia 7,75 44,29

At 24472 factories there were only 24140 electric, steam, diesel engines (with an average power of 60 hp). That is, not even every plant had at least one engine. Here you have the "advanced technology." Russia was 10 times behind the United States in terms of energy and mechanical availability, 5 times behind England, 4 times behind Germany, Belgium and New Zealand. Let us add one more interesting fact: in 1913, there were 3,035 million telephone network subscribers in the USA, 797 thousand in Germany, 536,5 thousand in England, 185 thousand in France, and 110 thousand in Austria-Hungary ., in Sweden - 102 thousand, in Denmark - 98 thousand, but in Russia - 97 thousand subscribers. And this is at Russian distances ...

In 1913, Russia imported from other countries more than 1 million tons of steel and 8,7 million tons of coal.

Here are a few more figures. In 1913, the USA smelted 25 million tons of steel, Russia - 4,2 million tons, over 5 years in the USA steel production increased by 5 million tons, in Russia by 1,7 million tons (average 1 million ., and 0,34 million tons per year). 1% of the increase in steel production was pulled in the USA by 200 thousand tons, in Russia by only 25 thousand tons - in 8 times less.

The level of labor productivity in industry in Russia was less than: in the USA - in 9 times; in England - 5 times; in Germany - 4 times.

In 1909-1914 the British riveted 64 large surface ships, the Germans 47, the French 24, the Italians 16, Russia, with attempts, completed and re-created 10 surface ships of the class battleship-cruiser. And this despite the fact that in Russia military spending in 1908-1913gg. accounted for 32 - 33% of the total state budget.

[bober1982]

Mr. Uncle Murzik, your digital head will go round from your digits.

[Uncle Murzik]

Mr. bober1982 this is for fans of "crunching a French bun" and myths about "advanced" tsarist Russia!

[bober1982]

this is for lovers of crunch french bun .......
Quil's mangent de la brioche

[Hapfri]

The Russian Empire was a country of the so-called "second echelon" in a row with Austria-Hungary, Japan and Italy, which were delayed at the pre-industrial stage of development

The trouble is that the percentage of economic growth in Russia was the highest in the world; during the 90s of the 19th century, industrial potential doubled. And this completely destroys all your fabrications.
So Russia could be compared not with the then A-Hungary, but with today's China. By the year 30 we would confidently stand on a par with the advanced powers, if not for the machinations of your Marxist friends.
As for per capita income, in the USSR it was generally insignificant at any price. The salary of engineers was 100 rubles, $ 1 is 60 kopecks, in the newspaper True, you can see, then $ 60 a month. Plus minus three pennies and plus nothing to get. The deficit, you know, was forgotten over the years of the abundance of the new Russia?
Although you consider the USSR a highly developed state, so to speak, of the "first echelon"

Do you know? how many trucks should all Russian auto giants have to issue?

Do you know how much the USSR made cars in the 23rd year? And where did the Bolsheviks already make almost built factories?

Do you know how many tanks produced by the USSR "freedom fighter comrade Lenin"?
Already 8 or 10 pieces.

[Uncle Murzik]

Hapfrey, well, aside from verbal diarrhea from you, as always, I did not see! Well, however, what to expect from a person more than once caught to put it mildly on fantasies! The average size of the Soviet urban family in 1985 was 3,5 people, in the RSFSR 3,2 people. (1) The total family income in the same year on average in the USSR was 143 rubles each. per capita rubles per month [data for 1987, in 1985 - 135 rubles. All my calculations should be corrected at 1%, basically the same], which means the total monthly income of our family of 3.5 people. was equal to 500,5 rubles. (2) Information: The average monthly salary of workers and employees of the USSR in 1985 was 190,1 rubles. (3) Family income 500,5 rubles. formed of 396,4 rubles. salary, 47,5 rubles. pensions, scholarships, allowances and grants, 16,5 rubles. income from personal subsidiary plots, as well as 39,5 rubles. other income

[Hapfri]

You fool then do not include Comrade Murzik.
We are not talking about 1985.
In 1990, the average salary was already a couple of thousand on the nose.
But in 1961, for example, a young special received 90 rubles. And the average is already 120.
Besides. What is this family of 3.5 people? These are 2 working and 2 children who are under 20 years old and who need to be supported.
So with 2 employees, for example, we have 240 for four.
60 rubles per nose.
So here it is, comrade
And plus a deficit, that is, having received the money, you had to run around, look for how to spend it

[Alexander Greene]

In 1961, there was still no shortage. Khrushchev had not yet managed to completely ruin the Stalinist balanced economy. Failures at Nikita began later. The deficit arose when the economy was transferred to self-financing in 1964-1965.

[Hapfri]

In 1961, there was still no shortage. Khrushchev had not yet managed to completely ruin the Stalinist balanced economy.

There was always a shortage in the USSR.
As for the Stalinist economy, it was the economy of war. Tanks, MiGs, atomic bomb, White Sea Canal .....
Khrushchov just began to develop the civilian, consumer sector.
Build a separate housing.
To produce some types of products on a commodity scale - televisions, receivers, refrigerators, cars, some clothes, summer cottages, pensions for workers, passports for collective farmers appeared, reduced the unthinkable defense budget and began to negotiate with the West. So Khrushchov was wasted so much in vain.
Beloved by all, Brezhnev just continued the policy of his predecessor.
At the grave of Khrushchov is a monument. Half black, half white.

[Alexander Greene]

Dear, I remember the full shelves of shops in the 50s, and I remember how, after the Khrushchev experiments in the early 60s, I stood in lines for white bread.

[Uncle Murzik]

let me know Mr. Hapfrey how many tanks did tsarist Russia produce?

[Hapfri]

and how many tanks did tsarist Russia produce?

The matter was new, the weapon was ultramodern, so Russia wisely spending resources decided not to be distracted by the production of tanks.
There were practically no tanks and opponents of Russia.
Germany produced two dozen 7AVs and had a small number of captured vehicles, all of them fought in the West. The Russian army did not encounter enemy tanks

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Hupfri

By the year 30 we would confidently stand on a par with the advanced powers, if not for the machinations of your Marxist friends.

Yeah ... only at first I would have to pay off loans and borrowings - pre-war and military.
By the way, following the results of the war, the Empire was deprived of Polish industry in any situation.

Quote: Hupfri

Do you know how much the USSR made cars in the 23rd year? And where did the Bolsheviks already make almost built factories?

Almost built factories - are you talking about Ryabushinsky? So it was launched in screwdriver assembly mode - from Italian machine kits. Own production at the plant was established only by the Bolsheviks.
By the way, it’s also a good example: before the WWII, the Empire’s automotive industry was almost dying. Lessner 2 years tormented with a car - spat, and began to make torpedoes. Russo-Balt interrupted government orders. And only in 1915-1916 the authorities woke up and began to issue loans for the development of the automobile industry. As a result, the Empire's car factories did not have time for war.

[Hapfri]

only first would have to pay off loans and borrowings

Well, they would have given it from German reparations.
But the October Revolution made this impossible. We had to pay ourselves

Empire in any situation was deprived of Polish industry.

Who decided this? And who considered the alignment?

•••• are you talking about Ryabushinsky? So it was launched in screwdriver assembly mode - from Italian machine kits

I will tell you a secret. Toyota plant did not even exist then. Even the plans were not. And Ryabushinsky already had a screwdriver assembly.)))))

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Hupfri

Well, they would have given it from German reparations.

Of the very ones that even the Allies could not fully recover from Germany?
By the way, and what place would Russia have in line for German money?

Quote: Hupfri

Who decided this?

Nicholas II, who promised a united Poland after the war. Under the Russian protectorate, yes - but it’s not for me to remind you of how such protectorates ended.

Quote: Hupfri

I will tell you a secret. Toyota plant did not even exist then. Even the plans were not. And Ryabushinsky already had a screwdriver assembly.

Screwdriver assembly from Italian engine kits.
Italian!
Some kind of @ # $% ^ & # Italy, united in a single country only in 1870, already produced cars and even tanks in WWII. * wall *

[Hapfri]

Of the very ones that even the Allies could not fully recover from Germany? laughing

All of them could. Germany had to pay until the 70s.
If the Entente were preserved with the participation of Russia, World War II would be unlikely.

Nicholas II, who promised a united Poland after the war

So what? Where would that Poland go? There were then no such Russophobic sentiments. There were many friendly Poles

Italy, united in a single country only in 1870, already produced cars and even tanks in WWI

Italy included not only backward Sicily, but also Genoa, the northern territories formerly Austrian. These were developed areas that followed the path of capitalism under Napoleon.
Germany also united into a single country only after the Franco-Prussian war.

[Alexander Greene]

Information for Khapfi that he should not create illusions about "... that Russia could be compared not with the then A-Hungary, but with the current China. By the 30th year, we would confidently stand on a par with the advanced powers, if not the machinations of your fellow Marxists "

From the book "The Coming Death of Russia". Part 1, C.-P., typ. Suvorin, 1908, - p. 156, - ​​MM Artsibashev.
Chapter II. "State ruin"
... By 1900, our public debt is already an impressive amount, i.e. the amount of urgent interest-bearing debts, together with what followed certain places and persons, were calculated at 3.701.000.000 rubles. To this it should be added that the value of perpetual debts, together with the state 6% debt, is estimated at 2.463.100.000 rubles. In total, including here interest-free indefinite debt, the total amount of debts by the indicated time was calculated at 6.264.000.090 rubles.
At the same time, the state treasury should only
2.400.900.000 rubles therefore in the years 1899-1900 public debt
treasury exceeded its income by 3.864.100.000 rubles., of which
domestic debt was 3.797.492.000, and the share of external loans accounted for only 66.606.000 rubles.
Years Interest-bearing debts in rubles.
1900 6.264.000.000
1903 6.643.926.670
1905 7.081.764.618
1906 7.841.164.509

As for some external debts, at present they extend to 7.500.000.000 rubles. In addition to all external debt, we get a menacing figure of domestic debt, estimated at about 9 billion rubles. To this should be added land debt of more than 2 billion debts of cities, joint-stock companies, societies, institutions and finally all private capital floating abroad.
Total, we receive gold every month in the average amount of
235.700.000 rubles., And on one public debt you need to pay interest 380.700.000 rubles.

So the Bolsheviks, led by Lenin in 1917, saved Russia from the ruin and complete enslavement of foreign capital.

[Hapfri]

Total, we receive gold every month in the average amount of
235.700.000 rubles., And on one public debt you need to pay interest 380.700.000 rubles.

So the Bolsheviks, led by Lenin in 1917, saved Russia from the ruin and complete enslavement of foreign capital.

You just touched me.
First.
The current US debt is $ 18. It would seem kirdyk. But nothing everyone lives. And not bad. There is still domestic debt. There are 000 trillion. But this does not prevent hundreds of fifth-generation aircraft, aircraft carriers, and launch rovers to Mars from being built by hundreds.
Second.
The Bolsheviks, led by Lenin, for example, passed laws on the abolition of freedom of trade, the abolition of private property for literally everything, the confiscation of deposits, the abolition of freedom of speech ... the economy did not even collapse, but complete paralysis. And what do you call salvation?
And how much did the economy of tsarist Russia cost? For any more than debt.
The Bolsheviks turned it into nothing.

The third.
Quite simply.
You have a field with raspberries and lingonberries. But there is no money for bast baskets, for hiring pickers, there are no cans to pour jam, carts to take this jam to the market and sell it there. Pickers loitering around, drink bitter and fight. You look at the stars through the holes in the roof.
I have extra capital. I came to you, offered a thousand gold that I was lying idle, profit in half. You harvested, attached your peasants to the business, the cart rushes into the city with jam every day, you arrived, patch the roof, put up a new fence, bought three more carts, built a hut for pickers, a school for their children and cinema to the women.
But owe me at the same time 1000 gold. From which each year he pays a monthly rate, for example, a hundred. Everyone is happy.
When you get stronger, then redeem my share. And you will be the sovereign master. Is that clear?

[Hapfri]

And further.
Since the tsars paid such money for the development of the empire, where did the Bolsheviks take money for industrialization?
What did they do with royal debts?
Rhetorical questions
An example by the way of successful repayment of external debt is today's Russia.
Over $ 100 billion paid

[Hapfri]

With regard to some external debts, they currently extend to 7.500.000.000 rubles

Are you talking about loans again?
“In Russia, foreign capital functioned in a fundamentally different way than in countries of the colonial and semi-colonial type. Large industrial enterprises founded with the participation of foreign capital owners were an inextricable part of the Russian economy, and did not oppose it. ” (TSB. 3rd ed. 1977. T. 24-II. P. 116.)
You do not believe your encyclopedia?

[Alexander Greene]

I think it’s not necessary to remind you: who owned these enterprises and where did all the profit go?

[Alexander Greene]

The Bolsheviks proposed that they pay royal debts if the countries participating in the intervention compensate for the damage they caused to Soviet Russia. When the West refused to pay, and no one was planning to return the gold reserves of Russia to France, the Bolsheviks refused to pay the debts of the tsarist government. And the fact that the destroyer Yeltsin paid this debt has nothing to be proud of - he continued his dirty work of ruining the country, just at the time when the people were starving.
And the Bolsheviks conducted industrialization with their own money, there were no loans, income from concessions was scanty.

[Serg koma]

Quote: Hupfri

As for per capita income, in the USSR it was generally insignificant at any price. The salary of engineers was 100 rubles,

You accidentally (or not?) Salary and salary beguiled.

[Hapfri]

salary and salary beguiled.

You want to say that it is slightly understated. Well, maybe. Excess dozen does not change the picture

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Uncle Murzik

The Russian Empire was a country of the so-called "second echelon" on a par with Austria-Hungary, Japan and Italy, which were delayed at the pre-industrial stage of development. The powerful powers were the USA, Great Britain, France and Germany, which in total accounted for in 1913. 72% of world industrial production. RI had only 6%. Awesome for a huge RI in its best year?
National income per capita in 1913 in Russia (in comparable prices in 1980) it was only $ 350, while in Japan - $ 700, in Germany, France and the UK - $ 1700, in the United States - $ 2325.
Data from the "World History", N.V. Zagladin, M., "The Russian word."

Class. Thank you, broadened my horizons in 1913. RI is a second-rate empire. Somewhere I already heard .... From overseas, yesterday. If only I strengthened: RI had only 6%, and the rest of the world 94% of GDP. It seems he didn’t lie, but donkey ears stick out.
I like the numbers more:

For 1913, GDP is given according to the most widely used estimate of E. Maddison, including in 1913, recalculated for the then existing borders.
№ 1913 GDP, billion dollars
1. The British Empire 986
2. USA 917
3. Russian Empire 464
4. Germany 440
5. China 428
6. France 299
7. Austria-Hungary 177
8. Japan 163
9. Italy 162
10. Netherlands 123
source: http://polit-ec.livejournal.com/5556.html
Here is a second-rate empire. I do not like?
And do not need this liberalist N.V. Zagladina poke everything in the nose.

[Aleksander]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

By the way, this fact dispels the Russophobian myth of the hopeless backwardness of old Russia - the tsarist engineers were able to repair the ship so that it served for another 31 year in the Turkish fleet ...

Dear lieutenant, what’s the 31 year there? In the combat formation of the Black Sea Fleet already 103 of the year (!) regularly serves ship of the Russian Imperial Fleet rescue of submarines "Volkhov", Built at the Putilov factory in St. Petersburg, which already before the revolution raised sunken submarines from the bottom. This is how the "backward" Russian Empire built.

[Nehist]

So this is not an achievement unfortunately (

[dauria]

which, before the revolution, raised sunken submarines from the bottom

You know, the photo in the dock is keel up. I thought I was wrong .. In fact, it was so - sealed, pumped air and introduced into the dock. They wanted to put it on an even keel later on in free water. Not bad for "backward" engineers.

[avt]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

But before that there was a non-zero probability that Turkey would remain neutral.

Look and find out - after the defeat in the Balkans in the war of 1912, the Turks turned at the level of Enver Pasha to the Entente for entry with the return of positions in the Balkans, or for neutral status. The answer was simple and straightforward, but quite specific - the Entente promised neutrality of Turkey ONLY FOR THE PERIOD OF WAR. And the Russian-Turkish negotiations were really frustrated: firstly, the confiscation in favor of the Grand Fleet battleship built on Turkish money, and in large part on donations; Secondly yes

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

before the arrival of German ships, which, by the way, were "missed" by the British in the Mediterranean.

followed by shelling of the Russian coast by a German crew of ships wearing fez. Everything, the curtain, then only war.

[kuz363]

They began to build the ship in 1911, launched it in 1913. What is it, they built such a colossus for about 2 years? Just the fantasy of royal shipbuilding!

[Lieutenant Teterin]

Yes, the pace of construction was very high and the quality mark was also kept. But battleships of the "Soviet Union" class could not even be launched into the water for 10 years.

[murriou]

Quote: kuz363

They began to build the ship in 1911, launched it in 1913. What is it, they built such a colossus for about 2 years?

1. * sighing heavily * one must not know the topic at all in order to confuse launching or enrollment in the fleet list - and the actual commissioning, which the "empress" took place in October 1915, FOUR years after the laying.
This is if close to the record. then in a completely different direction

For example, "Izmailov" was enrolled in the fleet already at the time of laying, launched in 1915, 3 years after laying, and by the fall of 1917 their readiness was still very far from completion: 60% hull, 25-30% ship vehicles, etc., respectively.

2. In developed countries, much more serious ships, from bookmarking to commissioning, were made in 2-3 years. For example, the Queen Elizabeth superdreadnought was laid down in late October 1912, launched a year later, and commissioned in January 1915. Everything about everything is 27 months, a little over 2 years.

[parusnik]

And in 1929 he died under strange circumstances.

... In the house where John Haviland lived, a fire broke out .. They saved everyone except him ...

[Amurets]

Article plus! It is written soundly and well, but alas, it is not the author’s fault, the documents either do not exist or are well hidden. The mystery of the death of the battleship remains a mystery.

[Monster_Fat]

How we love to look for "the intrigues of the insidious West" where our usual carelessness and slovenliness reign .. I completely agree with the conclusions of the commission that investigated this catastrophe at that time and ruled out "malicious intent". Before looking for a "spy-off" in this case, it is better to read the materials of this commission - everything is written in minutes: "what, how and why."

[kvs207]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

I did not know about the fact of repairing the Turkish cruiser

I read about it in one brochure, back in the early 70s. And the fact that the ship was in the Turkish fleet for so long is not surprising. The frigate "Raphael" was also supported with all their might, as it was the only Russian trophy.

[dep071]

Article plus.
The film "Was there Carotene?" It is based on the events of the death of the battleship.

[unknown]

By the way, under similar circumstances, the Italians during the WWII lost the battleship and battleship.

[albert]

And the Japanese too.

[murriou]

The author is traditionally biased and prone to primitivizing the topic under discussion.
Additionally,

On August 10, 1914, two of the newest German cruisers arrived in Turkey: the heavy Goeben (called the Sultan Selim) and the light Breslau (Midilly).

1. The history of the appearance of German ships at the World Cup is itself dramatic and unexpected for most participants. Here this event is presented as an ordinary, expected. almost planned. But when the ships approached the Dardanelles, both the Germans and the Turks did not yet fully understand the status of the ships and the procedures laid down in connection with it.

2. The author has obvious problems with the classification. The heavy cruiser class appeared much later, as a result of the Washington Treaty. The Goeben was a classic dreadnought battle cruiser.

3. Well, so the newest. "Goeben" entered service in the summer of 1912. During the time before the start of WWI, at least a couple of episodes managed to appear. "Breslau" entered service a little earlier.

Fleet Commander A.A. Eberhard was bound by a government directive. ... avoid aggressive actions

That would be all right! But the Black Sea Fleet was also unprepared for defensive actions and aggression of the enemy.

Under pressure from Germany, the Turkish "military party" stuck up, and the Ottoman Empire decided to enter the war.

Here the author also simplifies / distorts the picture. In the Turkish government there were also supporters of the alliance with Germany. and supporters of an alliance with the Entente, and - the majority are supporters of expectation, without, so far, drawing them into war on either side.

The pro-German party took a very serious step: attacking Russia (the so-called "Sevastopol wake-up call") and drawing Turkey into the war without first solving the issue in the proper way, through discussions at all instances, where this decision would most likely be blocked.

However, the German-Turkish forces could not do much harm to the Russian fleet: the forces were sprayed, and there was not enough firepower.

The author completely does not understand the purpose of this attack. It was obviously unrealistic to inflict critical damage on the Russian fleet, and Sushon Pasha understood this no worse than we are today. But causing enough damage to make the Russian-Turkish war inevitable is easy, and it was done.

[murriou]

= * = continue ...

the fire of the cruiser "Cahul" destroyed huge coal storages in Zonguldak (Zunguldak)

Yeah, "destroyed", and even "huge"!
Coal is not oil, and even much more serious artillery than the 152mm "Cahula", maiden name "Ochakov", is not capable of more than partial destruction of some warehouses.
The action was more like a demonstration; coal storages then continued to work as if nothing had happened.

"Both ships were damaged (the Goeben had to be put in for repairs)."
And "Eustathius", like, did not have to?
This is with one effective hit on “Goeben” and three - on “Eustathius”?
The Russian flagship was in repair for only two weeks, with round-the-clock work, and the German - for as long as 14 days, yes!
Moreover: during this repair, the light forces of the Turk Germans frolic freely enough in the open, and the Russian Black Sea Fleet was afraid to go to sea otherwise than as a whole crowd before the completion of this repair.

Plan for the Bosphorus Operation

It is a pity that the author did not set forth the plan itself. This plan is an enchanting example of incompetence.

On August 14 (27), Romania entered the war on the side of the Entente

It was a great gift of fate for the Germans! By that time, they had practically depleted their pre-war reserves of liquid fuel.

On minefields, the enemy lost several warships, submarines

Lists possible? With the date, place, name of the lost warships and submarines, eh?

During the first year of service, the ship made 24 military campaigns, sank a lot of Turkish ships.

But these "Turkish ships" were mainly transports and feluccas.

Attempts to chase something more serious were not crowned with success: both "Goeben" and "Breslau" left the "empresses", although not without difficulty, and the vaunted "noviks" during these kind of chases, instead of using their vaunted speed and armament for tying up the enemy in force until the approach of the "battleship", kept at a safe distance for several hours.

in 1929 he died under strange circumstances.

An owl beeps, the globe is popping.
If in 1916-1917 it still made sense to secret the successful operation to destroy the allied ship, and if it was already required to cover the tracks. then this is done immediately. 13 years later, this is obviously useless.
In reality, had it been an operation of the British special services, already in the early 20s all the participants would have received the orders quite officially.

the opportunity to carry the "infernal machine" to the battleship was.

Not that it was out of the question. But then it is incomprehensible the complete (!) Lack of distribution of orders for such great success. The Germans would have boasted almost immediately, the British would have waited until the end of the Civil War, but in any case there is no reason for them to remain silent longer.

The author has completely "forgotten" the version of an accident or slovenliness, the most plausible one - you will not intrigue readers with it

[murriou]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

Yes, the pace of construction was very high

Yes, it’s only 1,5-2 times longer than that of the British, Germans, Americans, superdreadnoughts

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

and they kept the brand of quality.

Yes, the record of long-term construction "Sevam" and "Emperor Sana" was provided. The title of the worst in their generation and class is also. The combat biography is appropriate.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

But battleships of the "Soviet Union" class could not even be launched into the water for 10 years.

Fortunately, completely different directions were priority for the USSR, in which we achieved very high successes.
And in the rest of the world, NO ONE battleship built after WWI did not justify the costs of its creation. Well, except that the "Bismarck" at least managed to sink the "Hood" - but other battleships destroyed during WWII were sunk by aviation at a much lower cost than exchanging a battleship for a battleship.

[murriou]

Quote: Uncle Murzik

where Russian firms that manufacture cars completely (from raw materials to the finished product) do not.

Not really not at all ...
Russo-Balt was a full-fledged automobile plant in Ingushetia. There, even some of the units made their own, oh!
Over the 7 years of operation, this plant produced about 500 copies of sold and 300 in the form of illiquid sets of spare parts: no one wanted to buy them at least at cost, because better foreign counterparts were cheaper, and the plant did not dare to sell at a loss.

For a year, "backward" Italians did many times more, and Ford produced more during WWI already in a week.

[bober1982]

murriou, the numbers are tiring, give up your arithmetic.
Take an example from Comrade Nefedova, it will be useful for you to know how to hater French rolls.

[murriou]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

this fact dispels the Russophobic myth of the hopeless backwardness of old Russia - the tsarist engineers were able to repair the ship so that it served for another 31 years in the Turkish fleet.

Gee-gee-gee. It was in the Turkish fleet that they could keep such junk, in England and even Japan, after the WWII, they also launched more decent ships for scrap.
And the same "Goeben" served in Turkey until 1868 in active service, and was started up for scrap only in 1973 at the age of 61.

[murriou]

Quote: Mavrikiy

source: http://polit-ec.livejournal.com/5556.html

yeah yeah source With a bunch of conversion factors, very randomly calculated. With rather slurred concepts, what is included or not included in this very GDP. There are many wonders you can find

Everything is simple and clear with the volumes of production, it doesn’t hurt to make sense with conversion factors.
Perhaps that is why, according to them, RI does not look as brilliant as in this "source", and very sad

And there is such an indicator as the structure of import-export. And for RI there is a polar beast at all.
Because a huge population and territory help to stretch the volume of production in the Republic of Ingushetia to a level comparable to developed countries many times smaller in territory and population.

And here you can't get away with that "UNCONVENIENT" fact that RI almost completely imported high-tech products - and exported mainly grain, raw materials, from as it were industrial products - fabrics, more and more complex - for example, sea mines - in scanty quantities, statistically imperceptible.

[murriou]

Quote: bober1982

murriou, the numbers are tiring, give up your arithmetic.

Your level is understandable, sympathize.
But why do you need a road trip, in that case? Why bother discussing a topic where the most essential "tires" you?

[bober1982]

The topic is the death of a battleship, and who is where, and why it’s climbing, is a big question.

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

the percentage of economic growth in Russia was the highest in the world

Nonsense.

1. The usual bakery rigging is that the Russian Empire is compared with developed countries in terms of growth rates, and the developing countries completely and very diligently "forget"

2. At the same time, developed countries usually have a high volume of production and a low rate of its growth - there is nowhere to grow.
Developing countries have a small volume of production, but high growth rates.
RI in the late 19th - early 20th century occupied an intermediate position.

3. The volume of prom. RI production was quite high, but (!) due to extensive factors: large population, vast territories. If you bring production to the population, from 5th place RI immediately rolls into the thirtieth rows.

4. The growth rate of production in the Republic of Ingushetia was for developed countries - to which the Republic of Ingushetia did not belong! - They are quite high, but (!) even at the same time they were inferior to the growth rates of industrial production in the USA, and in absolute volumes of production growth the Republic of Ingushetia was inferior to developed countries even with seemingly low relative growth rates - Germany and England.

5. And if you include not only developed countries, but also developing ones, then the mirage immediately dissipates: in terms of development rates, Russia was significantly inferior to Japan, Brazil, Chile, and probably many more.

6. In addition, the volume of production should not be confused with its level of technological development.
Here, the Republic of Ingushetia is significantly behind even Italy, Belgium, Holland and other seemingly not particularly outstanding countries. By the end of WWI, even behind Japan.

[Hapfri]

developed countries usually have a high volume of production and a low growth rate — there is nowhere to grow.
Developing countries have a small volume of production, but high growth rates.
RI in the late 19th - early 20th century occupied an intermediate position.

But having a high growth rate, developing Russia could catch up with advanced countries, such as modern China, Yu. Korea, and 20 years before them - Japan. Denying this is at least strange

The rate of production growth in the Republic of Ingushetia was quite high for developed countries, but (!) Even lower than the rate of growth of industrial production in the United States, and in absolute volumes of growth in production of RS it was inferior to developed countries

Verbiage.
Was the growth? It was. And pretty tall. What are we talking about?
In any textbook on the history of the CPSU, you will read about 1913 as the year of the highest level of production, with which then, not without reason, they compared the level of the USSR.

. In addition, the volume of production should not be confused with its level of technological development.

This becomes especially clear when we look through the lists of scientists and inventors who have left for the West. A television, a VCR, a helicopter all this could go into a series in Russia. But in the USSR appeared much later, often as products of Western corporations. In the USSR, cybernetics was called pseudoscience, but for you this is a secret.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Hupfri

Verbiage.
Was the growth? It was. And pretty tall. What are we talking about?

Verbiage is an increase in percent, without absolute values.
For in this case, it is lost sight of the fact that a state having an output growth of 300% (from 100 to 300 units of conditional production) will not catch up with the state with 140% growth (from 1000 to 1400).

Quote: Hupfri

But having a high growth rate, developing Russia could catch up with advanced countries, such as modern China, Yu. Korea, and 20 years before them - Japan.

The low base effect is quickly disappearing. Anyway, any growth tends to slow down over time.
In general, linear or other extrapolations of production growth outside the range of applicability of extrapolating functions, in which the theoretical statistics of the Empire catch up with the practical statistics of Western countries, remind me of the well-known calculus of Mark Twain:

For one hundred and seventy-six years, the Lower Mississippi shortened two hundred and forty-two miles, that is, an average of about a mile and one third per year. Hence, any calmly reasoning person, if he is not blind and not completely, will be able to see that in the ancient Silurian era — and she was blowing exactly a million years in November next year — Lower Mississippi was over one million three hundred thousand miles in length and hung over Gulf of Mexico like fishing rods. Based on the same data, everyone will easily understand that in seven hundred and forty-two years Lower Mississippi will be only one and three quarters of a mile in length, and the streets of Cairo and New Orleans will merge, and these two cities will live and live, managed by one mayor and choosing a general city council. All the same, there is something exciting in science. You’ll invest some trifling amount of facts, and take a colossal dividend in the form of conclusions. Yes, even with interest.

[Simpsonian]

So there is no need to fornicate at the expense of "development", in underdeveloped Europe and even more so in the United States, for example, there has never been even a faint resemblance to the Russian Academy of Sciences.
Such indicators as Tsarist Russia in 1913, never had and no one.

rolls at this time your ilich crunched in switzerland

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Simpsonian

So there is no need to fornicate at the expense of "development", in underdeveloped Europe and even more so in the United States, for example, there has never been even a faint resemblance to the Russian Academy of Sciences.

No Academy of Sciences in the war will not block this:

Echelons with naval boilers for "smooth-decks", which the soulless Yankees built nearly three hundred.

Quote: Simpsonian

Such indicators as Tsarist Russia in 1913, never had and no one.

Yeah ... 5,3% of world industrial production versus 35,8% in the USA, 15,7% in Germany and 14% in the UK.
Smelting pig iron per capita is ten times less than in the United States and Germany. Wheat and potato yields are two to three times lower than in Britain and Germany (I’m not talking about Benelux).
In 1913, Russia occupied the penultimate place in Europe in average productivity of the main breads and the introduction of artificial fertilizers - only Serbia was behind us (Source: Proceedings of the meeting on May 20-22, 1915 with the participation of representatives of science, zemstvo and public institutions. PG., 1915. S. 422-425. The most important loaves are wheat, rye, oats, corn, peas and beans.).
In short, take "Russia 1913. Statistical and documentary reference book" - and see the data. This guide dramatically cures from bakery, you know.

[Simpsonian]

Because of the Russian Academy of Sciences, it was in the Russian Empire, for example, that a gas mask was invented, as a protection against chemical weapons of mass destruction, in which the Germans, who were not distinguished by decency and humanity, were the leaders and who killed many times more in the WWI than any other weapon

on your regularly foolishness taken from the ceiling about the interest for fools trying on the day then only on today - the United States was then worse than France in industry ...

in Germany there was massive rickets, and not in the Russian Empire

PS. Until 1910, "cultural" Europpa generally did not wash ... your ilyich crunched with his rolls somewhere there.

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

Do you know how many tanks produced by the USSR "freedom fighter comrade Lenin"?
Already 8 or 10 pieces.

Yes, and it was 1920, the end of the civil war, devastation, and so on, respectively.
At the end of the 20s, the USSR produced MS-1 tanks already hundreds in a year, in the 30s the rate of production of tanks reached about a thousand a year.
Cars and tractors in the USSR of the 30s began to be produced in dozens per day - like in the Russian Empire for a year or more.

For some reason, these are the numbers you "forget"

[Hapfri]

Yes, and it was 1920, the end of the civil war, devastation, and so on, respectively.

Who would argue. I’m talking about this to you.
In the 16th devastation was not. In the 20th was already.

At the end of the 20s, the USSR produced MS-1 tanks already hundreds in a year,

I won’t say anything about MS, I guess it was probably a miracle of technology, but by license
T 26 was an unusually high percentage of marriage. In any case, the first series.
For buildings up to 80 percent

[murriou]

Quote: Uncle Murzik

destroyers of the "Novik" type ... were considered reference

In Russia, perhaps

[Alexey RA]

Quote: murriou

In Russia, perhaps

Well, how can I say ... a turbine EM with a displacement of 1000 - 1200 tons, at a speed of 32-34 knots, armed with 3-4 four-inch tubes and 2-4 two-three-pipe TA, became really the standard of EM during the WWII: R, S, V, W, "smooth-deck", 1916M, etc.

[murriou]

Quote: bober1982

The topic is the death of a battleship, and who is where, and why it’s climbing, is a big question.

The author began the disclosure of this topic with a very extensive background, and in this exposition he made a considerable number, hkm. arbitrary assumptions и incorrect statements, in the correction of which the author helps the author, as usual. What's wrong?

[murriou]

Quote: Uncle Murzik

German and Swedish turbines, English gyrocompasses and rangefinders were mounted on Russian destroyers, cruisers and battleships.

I will add that the "Russian" naval guns 120mm and 152mm were of the Kane system, the "Russian" 102mm guns were developed with the participation of Vickers engineers and on the basis of an earlier Vickers gun of the same caliber.

When the German turbines became unavailable for the "noviks", they were replaced by the English Parsons systems, then English engineers helped to arrange their copying already in Russia.
These, by the way, are examples of the notorious eternal Russophobia among the British, yes

Quote: Uncle Murzik

I am no less proud of D.I. Mendeleev, K.E. Tsiolkovsky, many other talented scientists and engineers.

So do I. But I do not forget that the state of science, invention and other home-made student does not at all coincide with the state of industry, technology and economics.
In addition to Mendeleev, Butlerov was also in Russia, and we can say that all the most advanced chemical science was Russian.
And the most powerful and advanced chemical industry at the same time was German.
Zhukovsky and Tsiolkovsky - it was fine, but the "Russian" aviation kept on foreign developments.
And so in everything.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: murriou

I will add that the "Russian" naval guns 120mm and 152mm were of the Kane system, the "Russian" 102mm guns were developed with the participation of Vickers engineers and on the basis of an earlier Vickers gun of the same caliber.

Duc .. you can still remember about order 130/55 at Vickers - the NEO did not manage production.

Quote: murriou

When the German turbines became unavailable for the "noviks", they were replaced by the English Parsons systems, then English engineers helped to arrange their copying already in Russia.

And here we can recall leapfrog with diesels for submarines - also originally German.

Quote: murriou

In addition to Mendeleev, Butlerov was also in Russia, and we can say that all the most advanced chemical science was Russian.
And the most powerful and advanced chemical industry at the same time was German.

The chemical industry of the Empire had another sensitive drawback - the location:

Before the war, sulfuric acid was produced in Russia about 1250 thousand pounds per year. The source material for this (sulfur) was mined in Russia in negligible quantities (not more than 5-6 thousand pounds). Three quarters of it was imported from abroad (12-14 thousand pounds). A significant part of sulfuric acid was prepared in Riga and at Polish enterprises. With the loss of Polish plants and the evacuation of Riga plants, sulfuric acid production fell to 85 thousand pounds (7 thousand pounds per month).

[murriou]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

an example of this are the battleships of the Sevastopol series

Which, in 5,5 years of their construction (this is where the records of the Russian Empire are, this is where the development indicator is!) Managed to turn from promising into rather backward ones. Very weak armor, weaker than the German LKR; mediocre armament, much inferior to the English, French, Japanese counterparts, with the commissioning of the Bayern - and to the Germans.

And now look at when the Japanese "Fuso" was put into operation, and how much the Russian "sevas" and "imps" lost to it in all respects. You can also look at Queen Elizabeth and Bayern.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

destroyers "Novik"

It was better with these, thanks to the Germans and the British

But the serial "noviks" in speed lagged far behind the first, pre-production, which the Germans brought to 36 knots of full speed and 37,3 knots of maximum speed - not a world record, but decent for that time.
Serial "noviks" had a much lower full speed, from 30 to 34 knots in different series.

In terms of speed and torpedo armament, they all lagged behind their counterparts in developed countries at the time of their commissioning.
In terms of armament, by the middle of WWII they began to lag behind many developed countries, and by the end they were already behind everyone.

[Lieutenant Teterin]

And again the numbers ... My dear friend, if you carefully read my previous comments, you could not help but notice that I was talking about the need to evaluate the phenomena not by statistics, but by the general quality. Yes, "Sevastopol" had lower reservations. But the speed is higher and more guns, and the layout of the main guns made it possible to fire from all barrels both from the left and from the right side. And the main caliber itself was similar to the German "Königs", which showed themselves quite well in the battle of Jutland. You can read more detailed comparative analysis of "Sevastopol" with similar ships here:
http://oldadmiral.livejournal.com/10936.html

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

Yes, "Sevastopol" had lower reservations.

Not just lower - the thickness of the "Sev" armor belt was slightly larger. than the tragic death in Jutland LKR "Queen Mary".
However, the "Sev" had a problem not only with the thickness of the armor - they also had the decks placed "topsy-turvy". And they found it out only during the firing on the excluded vessel No. 4, when it suddenly became clear:

The method of mounting armor adopted by us did not pass the test. The integrity of the ship was violated not so much by breaking through the armor as by the divergence of the plates and the destruction of the side. The latter gave holes even in cases when the armor remained intact ... Water entered the ship in the gap formed by the divergence of plates and it sank earlier than the outer side was pierced ...
As for horizontal booking, the experiments showed that an erroneous idea was put into the system of this booking. Both the distribution of thicknesses of deck covers and their material turned out to be unsatisfactory. This question requires immediate verification, and experiments were undertaken to cover it. In any case, it can be said in the affirmative that both the thickness of the lower armored deck and the roofs of the deckhouses and towers should be increased.

It’s not bad, but ... they spread the armor on board in order to prevent its breakdowns by landmines - but they got that the board was whole, but the ship was sinking anyway.

[murriou]

Quote: Alexey RA

a turbine EM with a displacement of 1000 - 1200 tons, with a speed of 32-34 knots, armed with 3-4 four-inch and 2-4 two-three-pipe TAs, has become really the standard EM of the times of WWI.

Is it okay that the turbine EMs built by the Germans for Argentina 3 years before the commissioning of the first "Novik" ALREADY met this standard? At the same time, significantly surpassing the Novik in seaworthiness and cruising range - did they reach the customer on their own across the Atlantic? At the same time, significantly surpassing him in torpedo armament?

Is it okay that the English "Tribes" approached it already in 1907-1909, and in Russia the "noviks" were at first called "English-type destroyers"?

Is it okay that the Japanese and Americans also started making ocean-class turbine electric motors even before the first "novik" was commissioned?
Is it okay that by the middle of WWI the developed countries were already making EVs that were superior to the "newcomers" in many or all respects?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: murriou

At the same time, significantly surpassing the Novik in seaworthiness and cruising range - did they reach the customer on their own across the Atlantic?

Well, at least 2 noviks did the same.

Quote: murriou

Is it okay that the English "Tribes" approached it already in 1907-1909, and in Russia the "noviks" were at first called "English-type destroyers"?

A pair of 102 mm and a pair of single tube TA simultaneously - This is clearly below the standard.

[DimerVladimer]

Regarding the gouging - it is very possible, according to the recollections of eyewitnesses who served on the battleship - both the shell and charging cellars were not isolated during the parking.
"In all the rooms of the tower there were personnel of the tower servants who were housed in residence. No supervision was carried out over those living in the tower and those coming into it. The routine of life and work on the ship was characterized by a complete loss of vigilance [35]." to penetrate not only the ship, but also the towers and the charging compartments did not present any difficulty for anyone. With criminally careless carelessness, the hatches of the bomb cellars were always and at all times open. In the casing of the tower pin there was a hole into the cruise chamber. According to the position, the manhole door, usually locked with a key, was not only not locked by the order of the authorities, but, in general, was removed. "

At the time of Kolchak’s command - the main version was considered - spontaneous combustion of gunpowder.

Some recollections of eyewitnesses indicate that at first a fire started in the nasal charging cellar.
"... Another thing is remarkable. When the first alarm was given on the ship, the sailors did not attach any importance to it. Sailor Stupak, my best friend, described this moment as follows:
- By the beginning of the accident, I was already completely dressed and went to the washstands. Suddenly thick black smoke burst from the fan tube. There were shouts: there is a fire in the cellar! Of course, I didn’t believe it: [16] will make it up too! How could there be a fire in the cellar? A false alarm, probably. And false alarms were to the point: now combat, now water, now firefighters, now mine ... I just decided that this time the authorities decided to simply "drive" the sailors. As for the flash, it’s probably from a short circuit in the circuit to the motor. I, not paying attention to the sound of the bell, continued to go to the washstands. Suddenly, somewhere close, it seemed, right under my very nose, there was a deafening explosion, and I lost consciousness. "
Yesyutin Timofey; Lawers S.
The death of "Mary" http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/esjutin_t/ind
ex.html

The version with the undermining of spies - has no documentary evidence.
In addition, the explosion occurs early in the morning - during the wake-up, it is doubtful that the shift would allow the presence of strangers, such as artisans.

[murriou]

Quote: Fotoceva62

why the disgusting organization on the ship of the service of Artdozor is not mentioned

For the simple and obvious reason that the author wants to get a predetermined answer - and tries to fit the solution to it in the inimitable style of "the owl squeaks, the globe cracks."

Well, what kind of sensations, intrigues, melodramas and soap operas can be in recognition of the boring fact of ordinary sloppiness?

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

the question is, why do we have to invest in the construction of ships in the conditions of war, having a huge land front?

Nevertheless, the fact: before the WWII, the Russian Empire worked pretty hard to create a fleet that corresponded to the world level. Why did tsarist Russia need this - ask not me

The expenses were considerable: the construction of each "seva" cost one and a half times more than the construction of a superdreadnought of the Queen Elizabeth type, superior to the "seva" like a bull and sheep in all significant parameters (well, except for the cost and construction time, here already RI in the record holders).

[Hapfri]

Nevertheless, the fact: before the WWII, the Russian Empire worked pretty hard to create a fleet that corresponded to the world level. Why did tsarist Russia need this - ask me not lol

I think this is a tribute to tradition.
Ships in those days were something like cosmonautics now. There is no momentary benefit, but it is beautiful and prestigious

[murriou]

Quote: Alexey RA

A pair of 102 mm and a pair of single-tube SLTs at the same time are clearly below the standard.

Of course, but what kind of year is it? 5-6 years before the first Novik!

And 3 years before "Novik" there were "Argentine Germans", there are already 3 * 102mm and 533mm TA, and the speed is higher.

And there were also in 1909. Japanese "Umikaze", were in 1912-1913. American "Kassens" and "Alwins", the British have already been mentioned by you - in general, the point is that the "noviks" were not at all something unique and exclusive on a global scale, as the bakers love to lie about it.

The trend was formed long before the Russian "noviks", and if in some way they for some (!) Period could be better than some (!) Analogs in some (!) Respects, then certainly not better than everyone and in everything, as the popular myth about the incomparable and the first Russian destroyers in the world is trying to convince us. And by the end of WWI, the "noviks" had clearly and significantly lagged behind the world level.

[murriou]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

I talked about the need to evaluate phenomena not by statistics, but by overall quality.

And how do you propose to evaluate this very quality? If not by numbers? How the hell will the soul lie? How can anyone shout out louder?

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

Yes, "Sevastopol" had lower reservations.

Not that word. 225mm of the main armored belt versus 305-330 for the British battleships and 350 for the German battleships at that time, and this is still without adjusting for the quality of the armor. Approximately on a par with English LKR, and even weaker than German LKR.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

But higher speed

Higher than anyone?
If you, like many of your like-minded people, read about 24,6 nodes on Wikipedia, then this is the result after the modernization carried out by the cursed Bolsheviks And during the WWII, he did not reach the estimated 23 knots.
At the same time, the German "Kaisers" and "Koenigi" occasionally showed real speed above the calculated 21 knots, reaching 24 and higher.
And "Queen Elizabeth" slightly exceeded its calculated 23 knots.
Even "Iron Duke" and "King George" occasionally exceeded 22 knots, so there is no need to talk about any tactical advantage of "sowing" in speed.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

and more guns

More than 10 guns from the Germans? Yes, it seems - but the Germans have a partial automation of loading, which increases the rate of fire just enough to compensate for this difference.

And most importantly, German armor in critical areas of the ship is punched by Russian shells except at point-blank range, while Russian 225mm is stably pierced by German 305-mm shells with up to 120 cables.

And while this difference in distances can be overcome, the sieve will come out of the "seva". Therefore, they were not brought into battle in the Baltic against the Germans.

Compared to the number of guns on British ships, let's not forget about the caliber, okay? British guns 343mm and even more so 381mm are also capable of hitting "sowing" at any reasonably discussed distance of the battle, also significantly exceeding in range - and at the same time inflicting significant damage with each hit.

You can recall the Japanese "Fuso" with its 12 * 356mm - it surpasses the "North" and "Imps" in ALL significant parameters. Well, apart from the cost and construction time, here RI is in the "record holders".

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

You can read more detailed comparative analysis of "Sevastopol" with similar ships here:
http://oldadmiral.livejournal.com/10936.html

Read and read. This "old admiral" is a crystal baker and a rigger, rather clumsy trying to cheat. Well-reasoned objections regularly appear in his LiveJournal, incl. and mine appeared there. And then "somewhere" they disappeared

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

Russia, wisely spending resources, decided not to be distracted by the production of tanks.

Yes, green grapes!
But "backward" Italy for some reason did what the advanced Russia did not have the resources (and desire, yeah, yeah) to do.
Why did England and France build tanks if the Germans had no tanks at all? It's about your "logic"

[Hapfri]

"backward" Italy

Italy, in general, was not backward. The soldiers they were crappy but the ships and planes did very good. The question is in financing and not in the inability of Italian engineers.

Why did England and France build tanks if the Germans had no tanks at all? This is about your "logic" laughing

And then, that the French had to break into the layered defense of the Germans, freeing their territory and the tanks were the best tool for this. The fact that the Germans did not have tanks was a personal matter of the Germans, the result of the short-sightedness of German technical experts. The task of the Germans after the 15th year was to exhaust the allies, inflict sensitive enough damage on them in order to then negotiate decent conditions for a peace treaty. The Russian army had the same task with regard to Germany, but already in anticipation of victory, it was a war of attrition. In defense, it was perfectly possible to do without tanks.

[murriou]

Quote: Aleksander

The Russian Empire built from 1909 to 1917. 11 battleships, 7 commissioned.

Every time I hear from you * amazing discovery *, I ask a little list - and every time your numbers stop converging

So, actually built: 4 "sevas", 2 "empresses", 1 "emperor". Total - 7, and the "emperor" broke the long-term construction record, having entered service almost 6 years after the laying, in the summer of 1917. Well, okay, let's count him too.

And the rest 4 - is that "Ishmaels"? Can you share the details of their combat biography?
How can a ship be considered built that is completely unworkable, unable to pass sea trials, in which the hull was completed by only 60% by the end of his biography, and the cars were about a third or a quarter?

[chenia]

You do not convince the bakers, these are demagogues.

They will persist in proving that the supine is better than the upright.

For 4 years, the PMV has not a single successful attack on second-rate German troops.
They beat the Austro-Hungarians, well, who didn’t beat them (except Italians).

[murriou]

They will remind you of the Brusilov breakthrough. What else can the bakers have?

[Hapfri]

They will remind you of the Brusilov breakthrough.

Yes.
And also the actions of the army of Yudenich against the Turks.
By the way, Germany was a powerful industry. And the best army at that time. Disciplined and motivated
With scarce resources and blockade, it fought against almost the whole world, in such conditions active defense would be the best tactic for Russia.

It is not bad for the collective farmers to recall that the detachments of the Red Guard and the Revolutionary sailors in the hostilities against Kaiser did not show themselves in any way. We just left the front by train and stopped somewhere near Samara to wait for the world revolution

[chenia]

Quote: Hupfri

We just left the front by train and stopped somewhere near Samara to wait for the world revolution

Remind yard that this army, after 4 years of war, stopped somewhere beyond Berlin.

[Hapfri]

that this army, after 4 years of war, stopped somewhere beyond Berlin.

Collective farmers even on the know that it was already a different army. With gold epaulettes and St. George awards called Glory.
And with the good old allies.

[siemens7774]

It’s interesting why everyone constantly forgets that between the tsar and the burry, as some put it, there was a liberoid laying in the form of Kerensky and the interim government. They managed from February to October to destroy the front’s supply, to ruin the army’s discipline, and thereby let the Germans everywhere? the problem turns out.

[Hapfri]

all constantly forget that between the tsar and the burry, as some put it, there was a liberoid laying in the form of Kerensky and the interim government

Yes, no one forgets about it, this is just the next stage of our conversation.
The fact is that the power of the Tsar is legitimate unconditionally, while many deny the legitimacy of the Provisional Government. For 70 years, the Bolsheviks have worked hard to undermine all confidence in the Provisional Government.
By the way, why is it temporary. Yes, because this is a government created after the February events temporarily before the convening of the Constituent Assembly.
The Bolsheviks couldn’t win legally there and didn’t win a rebellion relying on the lumpenized masses of working people who wanted to drive engineers and craftsmen away, then plunder property from factories, loafers from reserve battalions and from the ships of Kronstadt who did not want to go to the front to fight the enemy and defend their homeland. The coup was accompanied by rampant robbery and drunkenness

[antivirus]

and "lemon" for detonation would be enough?

[murriou]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

in Soviet culture, the numbers of statistics have some intrinsic and almost magical significance

* sighing again heavily * It is not a matter of Soviet culture, but of the general culture of scientific and / or engineering thinking.
Yes, in Soviet society this was a much more popular and respected phenomenon than now - but I repeat, this is characteristic of scientifically and technically educated people anywhere.

You see, lieutenant, the numbers are accurate and objective, and value judgments without numerical justification are bullshit, you can turn them around as you like, interpret them as you like and dispute as many as you like.

And it seems to me that your dislike of numbers is explained by two banal and obvious reasons:
1. The numbers still need to KNOW. Or, by cr. least, KNOW where they can be taken reliable and reliable, and not just another generation of someone's violent imagination. But dunno knows when others know, and they do not.

2. Figures, facts, dates - they are stubborn. If they are, it is difficult to chart them in the direction desired by the myth-makers.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

I ask you to recall that industrial efficiency is determined not only by the volume of production, but also by the quality of the products.

What makes you think I forgot about it? It's just that the quality in RI was even worse than with quantity.
For example, Russian copies of foreign airplanes, even with the use of imported engines, were usually 10% heavier than the original with a corresponding deterioration in all performance characteristics. Such is the quality, yes.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

The ships of the Imperial Navy were not inferior in quality to the British and German

Well, sometimes yes: German-made "Russian" ships were not inferior to German-made German ships

But the Russian "cruisers", when compared with the "Russian" cruisers, look sad. Such an important characteristic for a cruiser as speed, for the Russian "cruiser" of the "Diana" type - 19 knots, and for the "Russian" cruiser "Askold" - 24,5 knots, for example.
At the same time, the "Askold" has noticeably thicker armor and one and a half times more than the standard installed weapons. With even less (5900 versus 6600) displacement. Quality, yeah.

Enough has already been said about the Russian "battleships". Their combat biography is appropriate: they were never released against a worthy enemy of their class, in WWI the "sevas" generally spent most of their time at the capital, in WWII they worked as floating batteries - not bad, of course, but for these tasks there are much cheaper types ships.

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

- it is enough to look at the same "Noviki", the running data of which the Soviet cruisers could not surpass.

Is it nothing that you are trying to compare the destroyers with the cruisers in terms of driving performance?

If you choose adequate objects for comparison, then before the Second World War the sworn Bolsheviks modernized the "noviks" and raised their speed.

By the way, is it okay that only the first, pre-production "Novik" had a high (although still not a record, in spite of the crisp-baked lies)? And the merit for this is not from the Russian miracle engineers, but from the Germans, who brought it up at home and on their own. We got 36 knots full speed, 37,3 knots maximum. GERMANS got it.

And serial "noviks", assembled and brought in Russia, had full speed, with a spread in series, from 30 to 34 knots. Here's the Russian quality again.

[Hapfri]

You see, lieutenant, the numbers are accurate and objective, and value judgments without numerical justification are bullshit,

Do you want a digit? I have them.
From 1900 to 1913, exports of Russian goods doubled, significantly exceeding imports. In 1913, export amounted to 1,52 billion rubles, while import amounted to 1,37 billion rubles (in previous years the difference was greater). Due to the positive trade balance, there was a constant increase in gold reserves (on the eve of World War II, it amounted to 1,7 billion rubles and became the third in the world).
From 1880 to 1917, 58 km of railways were built, the annual increase was 251 km. Including the Trans-Siberian Railway, which has been successfully operating so far, unlike today's BAM. The number of transported goods increased by 1575% annually. The shipping merchant fleet in the ten pre-war years increased by 7%, its carrying capacity - by 32,1%. During the same time, during the Soviet era, from the end of the civil war until 41, half the railways were built - 1956 km with an annual increase of 36 km.
The average annual growth rates of the Russian economy over a quarter century exceeded the development of all other developed countries: 8% in 1889–1899 and 6,25% in 1900–1913 (the decrease is explained by the war with Japan and the attempt of the “first revolution”). Moreover, not only agriculture, metallurgy, oil, forestry sectors have successfully developed, but also the most advanced: chemistry, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering (from 1909 to 1913, the production of internal combustion engines increased by 283,5%), aircraft manufacturing (suffice it to name the most powerful aircraft in the world “Vityaz” and “Ilya Muromets” by I.I. Sikorsky).

[murriou]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

Or to the battleships of the Sevastopol class, the propulsion system of which was more powerful than the British King George V, and the speed was 2 knots higher.

You tried to cheat. By arrogance, or by ignorance?

1. "King George" was commissioned in November 1912, "Sevastopol" - in December 1914. The British have passed two more series during this time, and you are trying to equalize them.
2. These series had this:
2.1. "Seva" 12.1914, 23/27 thousand tons, 42 thousand hp, full speed 21,0 knots, maximum speed 23,0 knots. (not always confirmed by tests).
What young "experts" from Wikipedia pull, without knowing WHAT they pull - 26/31 thousand tons, 61 thousand hp, 24,6 knots - this is already after the modernization carried out by the sworn Bolsheviks in 1936-1938

2.2. "King George 5", 11.1912, 23/27 thousand tons, 31 thousand hp, full speed 21,7 knots, maximum speed 22,13 knots.
As you can see, "Zhora" lags behind insignificantly in maximum speed, even surpasses "seva" in full!
2.3. "Iron Duke", 03.1914, 26/31 thousand tons, 29 thousand hp, full speed 21,1 knots, maximum speed 21,4 knots.
2.4. "Queen Elizabeth", 01.1915, 29/33 (31/35) thousand tons, 75 (80) thousand hp, full speed 23 knots, maximum 25 knots.
As you can see, "Seva" does not have 2 nodes advantage - and it is not even a fact that at least 1 node is in front of "Zhora" and "Duke", but before "Lisa" "Seva" is a net loss. Although the same age.

And the class is nominally one, but "Liza" is much stronger in all respects: the speed is higher, the armor is MUCH thicker, the weapons are MUCH more powerful.

Now tell me how Russian quality "seva" is superior to "lisa"

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

Italy, in general, was not backward.

I know. Italy supplied "advanced" Russia with ready-made sets of cars for screwdriver assembly, and not vice versa. But among other crystal bakers, arrogant spitting at everyone from the height of the greatness of the "advanced" Russian Empire is popular

[Hapfri]

... Italy supplied "advanced" Russia with ready-made sets of cars for screwdriver assembly, and not vice versa.

Nevertheless, collective farmers need to remember that the USSR got to motorization when only a few years remained before the war. With the help of Ford and AUTOCAR
There is not a single enterprise built and equipped by the Soviet Union independently in the prewar years. Helped the same Italy, and a friend of Germany, and the enemy of America.
In the Russian Empire, science reached the highest dawn in the prewar decades.
It is enough to name such world-famous names as Mendeleev, Lobachevsky, Pavlov, Sechenov, Mechnikov, Timiryazev, Pirogov, the inventor of Radio Popov ... Subsequently, Russian scientists and engineers who came to emigration were highly valued in all countries and became famous there for many achievements of world significance, for example, B .TO. Zvorykin (television), I.I. Sikorsky (helicopter), V.N. Ipatiev (high-octane gasoline), P.A. Sorokin (sociology).

[Andrey Zh]

An excellent article, competent, sensible, and I did not know anything on this topic, unfortunately! My opinion is not the Germans, but the Anglo-Saxons undermined: their goal was to prevent Russia from entering the straits! Well, whether the Germans helped them or not, that's another matter ... However, both revolutions (1917) are on the conscience of Britain ... And stupid and dumb-headed hans helped them ...

[Alexander Greene]

The mystery of the death of the battleship was revealed in 1933, when the OGPU arrested the German spy Verman, who in 1926 was awarded the Iron Cross of Germany for organizing the explosion. His group was given the task of not allowing the battleship to be put into operation, and they began to prepare an explosion during the construction of the battleship, so the battleship was doomed in Nikolaev. They installed special fuses on the electrical wiring in the powder cellars, so that short circuits occurred at the right time. To prove the German footprint lies the fact that at the end of World War II in one of the German archives a photograph was found of the first moment after the explosion on the battleship.

[Hapfri]

The mystery of the death of the battleship was revealed back in 1933, when the OGPU arrested the German spy Verman,

This is when the Nazis in Germany came to power and urgently needed to look for German spies? Until the 33rd, with German spies, everything was cheeks - bunches, mostly Polish ones.

[Aviator_]

For the first acquaintance with the topic, the article, of course, is suitable, but coming up with a British trace in the death of a battleship is too much. Unwittingly, the author illustrated Kolchak's sycophancy in front of the tsar: "there are many saved" - but the number of those who perished is not enough? And he is reporting this to the country's top leadership.

[murriou]

Well, Kolchak's reports are a separate song with a fairy tale.
He would have gone to science fiction on time, and not to the Arctic and not to the fleet - he would not have a price.

[murriou]

Quote: Fotoceva62

the capture of the straits by the then Black Sea Fleet is still fantastic.

And you read the existing plan of the so-called Bosphorus landing operation!
This is some kind of polar animal: such a blatant incompetence, obvious even to an amateur, such a number of mistakes, omissions, ill-conceived - and this was discussed at the highest level! It was highly approved!

1.1. The authors of the ingenious plan proceeded from Kolchak's lies, as if in 1916. "Goeben" and "Breslau" were blown up by its mines and lost their combat effectiveness for a long time.
In reality, at that time, the Goeben's combat effectiveness was limited only by the presence of coal, but it had enough coal for several near exits or a couple of distant ones. These are 10 11 "barrels with a high rate of fire, good accuracy and a range of over 20 km, plus an average caliber of 12 * 150mm.

1.2. The authors of the plan completely forgot about the presence of the Brandenburg-class battleship Torgut Reiss. This is another 6 11 "barrels with a range of up to 15-16 km, which was enough to keep all the Entente ships out of the reach of its guns during the Dardanelles operation. Plus a medium caliber (8 * 105mm) and a very good reservation.
True, his speed was lousy - but for a sufficiently quick pull to the Bosphorus to protect him would be enough.

1.3. The authors of the plan did not seriously consider the coastal defense near the Bosphorus.
1.4. The authors of the plan did not take into account the presence of mobile field artillery among the Turks, which proved to be very effective during the Dardanelles operation.
1.5. The authors of the plan generally did not take into account the experience of the allies in the Dardanelles operation, declaring them "inept and indecisive."

Further - the actual plan. In the traditional genre, "it was smooth on paper."
2.1. At night, the Black Sea Fleet and the ships assembled throughout the World Cup, suitable for transporting troops, with two infantry divisions on them, approach the Bosphorus.
So you need to understand - it is assumed that the Turks and Germans do not have agents on the Russian Black Sea coast? What is a grand event and all preparations for it will go unnoticed by the enemy?

2.2. During the night there is a complete clearance of approaches to the shore.
The authors of the ingenious plan do not care that the Russian fleet has no experience in such large-scale mine clearance operations, even in the daytime.
That the Russian fleet also does not have any experience in night clearance.
That even the more experienced specialists in this matter have a risk of trouble.

2.3. In the morning, landing on the coast begins, on both sides of the strait, and the Black Sea Fleet is shelling the coastal fortifications.
So you need to understand that the enemy does not notice anything and does nothing.

Or it is assumed that two infantry divisions, without heavy weapons, with one rifle, landed ashore from unsuitable assembled vessels for this purpose, most likely under shelling, including of heavy guns capable of breaking through what is, but still prepared defense?
It is assumed that under fire, the "landing" ships will not suffer losses when approaching the coast and disembarking infantry?

2.4. At this time, the landing ships are returning to base to load the third division and heavy weapons.
No comments. The authors considered the time necessary for this to be insignificantly small.

2.5. In the afternoon, the Bosphorus is occupied by Russian troops, in the evening the Russian army and navy enter Constantinople.
This is what they have written, honestly. Either they themselves believe in it, or they hope that someone will believe it.
= * =
Here is a PLAN.
And among the current bakers, there are such * talented individuals *who moan that this plan of the second Tsushima was not carried out. Well, there are sick people, but so much ...

[murriou]

Quote: Aleksander

only in Germany, 740 (!) thousand people died of starvation

1. Otkeda firewood?
2. 740 thousand people, or 000 million people. - this is, if someone does not know how to count, 740+ times more than the entire population of Germany in 12
I understand that this poorly worded phrase is to blame.
But, honestly, the credibility of the crunchy myths does not change much from this

Quote: Aleksander

Russia's losses per thousand mobilized are the smallest among the world powers.

And then the same question about the woods. I want to take a look at circus balancing act with numbers

[murriou]

Quote: Aleksander

Russia "got into" WWII in the same way that it got into WWII, that is, it was attacked by the same aggressor.

It’s nothing that just at that time Germany gathered all its forces against France, not Russia, and this Russian army invaded German territory, and not vice versa.

[Hapfri]

It’s nothing that just at that time Germany gathered all its forces against France, not Russia, and this Russian army invaded German territory, and not vice versa.

It’s probably a secret for you that Russia was an ally of France and the German army rushed to Paris at full speed. The offensive in East Prussia was aimed at saving Paris in particular and France in general. In order to prevent the defeat of the Allies and their exit from the war. With the subsequent prospect of confrontation with the Germans face to face. Like in the 41st.

[murriou]

Quote: Lieutenant Teterin

Give the source, which indicates the number of 10 surface ships.

You are brazenly distorting, for the umpteenth time.
Your opponent wrote not about 10 generally any surface ships, but about the fact that

Quote: Uncle Murzik

In 1909-1914 ... Russia, with attempts, completed and re-created 10 surface ships of the class battleship-cruiser.

Can you count more? Let's get a list.
4 sevas, who else?
Well, okay, we'll count a couple more "Andreev the First Called". Although they were started in 1905 and launched in 1907, they were pickled for several more years after that, they were put into operation only in 1911-1912. , and they were never used in WWI.

"Empress" - commissioned at the end of 1915.
"Emperor Alexander" - generally 1917.
But that's okay, at least during the existence of the empire managed. You can count. Only then, for developed countries, the numbers will also grow, and very significantly - and Russia's lag will only increase.

What else can you remember?
The Ishmaels were not completed at all. NEVER.
Cruisers did not appear in the Republic of Ingushetia between RYAV and PMV. It was started in 1913. construction of "Svetlan", but not finished: the Russian industry was too advanced. The Germans and the British, for comparison, were ruled in a little over a year. During WWI, the Germans built more than 20 light cruisers, since 1909. until the end of WWI - 37 light cruisers.
"noviks", which Russia made less than the Germans cruisers, do not pass through the class.

Total in the bottom line I see 6 ships of the cruiser-battleship classes from 1909 to 1914, another 3 ships from 1915 to 1917 - and that’s all. Huh?

[murriou]

I rummaged through the guts, found 2 more long-term construction: Bayan-2 and Pallas-2. They were also laid down in 1905, basically they were made much earlier than 1909, but with the commissioning they were pickled before 1911 - despite the fact that the series was started before the REV, and the rest of the included ships got into operation much earlier.

As a result, all the same, 10 ships of the required class in the specified interval do not work. In the empire expanded to the end of its existence - 11.

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

Where would that Poland go? There were then no such Russophobic sentiments.

Yes, yes, yes, and there have never been uprisings, yeah. And the Polish corps of Poniatowski was not in Napoleon's army. And General Kosciuszko was not.

With your * marvelous selectivity of vision and memory * - the matter is clear: "You don't have anything, you don't have anything" (C)

[Hapfri]

Yes, yes, yes, and there have never been uprisings, yeah. And the Polish corps of Poniatowski was not in Napoleon's army. And General Kosciuszko was not.

Hello, please.
Kosciuszko was an international adventurer and was a plug to every barrel.
Type Garibaldi.
He behaved decently. He gave his word no longer against Russia and sat quietly.
In general, Ko Костciuszko is better known in America than here.
Understand the same adventurer only less fortunate. Marshall was just nothing and drowned in the river. You have forgotten Mrs. Valevskaya. I gave birth to a worthy son, it’s strange that you didn’t even remember about him
Well ? And how many Poles fought on the side of Russia. Do not count.
Rebellions in those days were all over Russia, and even more so in Europe.

[murriou]

Quote: Aleksander

This is how the "backward" Russian Empire built.

And she built this "Volkhov" in the image and likeness of the previously made by the Germans a similar ship "Vulkan", if anyone does not know
And it was maintained in the ranks thanks to repairs and upgrades made already in the USSR.

[skeptic31]

The article is good, but with the causes of the death of “Empress Maria” the author was reinsured. Really a lot of versions. But many facts speak for themselves. From the very beginning they were looking for a German trace. A lot of work has been done, but the output is not very intelligible. But suddenly an English trace surfaced. But it was 16 years old. Russia at this moment to argue with England was, to say the least, not a reason, so they began to release the matter on the brakes. Hence, such a drawn-out “investigation”. Everything else, the commander of the Black Sea Fleet Kolchak (!?!), Who personally contributed to the disappearance of the suspects, intervened in the matter. There is only one mystery here - was it the highest will or did he already sang with the British. Given his further behavior, this assumption is quite logical.

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

Do you want a digit? I have them.

Perfectly! Is it nothing that your numbers are about something completely different than mine, and they do not cancel them at all, as well as the conclusions from them?

Quote: Hupfri

From 1900 to 1913, exports of Russian goods doubled, significantly exceeding imports.

Perfectly! Such a normal picture, typical for successful developing country.
In this case, the export is again for developing countries typically - almost completely low-tech products or even raw materials, and high-tech products in the Republic of Ingushetia appeared almost entirely due to import. How many times I tell you this secret, the same number of times you "do not notice" and again "forget"
But is it so that in Chile or Brazil it was still better with the growth of exports, and with its excess over imports?

Quote: Hupfri

From 1880 to 1917, 58 km of railways were built, the annual increase was 251 km.

Fine too. And is it so that in the USA, with a much smaller territory, with the construction of the railway it was even much better than in RI?
But other developed countries did not need such a scale, due to the small territory.
But if you count on the ratio of the length of the railway tracks to the area of ​​the country, then the Russian Empire is immediately STRONGLY behind the European powers, not even first-rate ones. AND?

As for comparing the railroad successes of the Republic of Ingushetia with the USSR, you are diligently "forgetting" that in the USSR, in comparison with the Republic of Ingushetia, the freight traffic on the railway has been significantly increased by increasing the average weight of trains, the number of tracks has been increased, and the load has been significantly increased. ability of the railway bed.
All this does not affect the statistics = lengths = paths - but it is much more important for assessing their real practical significance.

Quote: Hupfri

The average annual growth rate of the Russian economy over a quarter century exceeded the development of all other developed countries:

1. RI was not a developed country - in developing countries, however, these growth rates were not at all outstanding.
2. In the USA, despite the already high level of development, the growth rate was also very high.
3. If we take not the growth rates, but the absolute values ​​of growth, then a surprise is found for you: Germany and England are also ahead of RI in terms of growth volumes, despite the low growth rates.
4. And most importantly: the deep technological backwardness of the Republic of Ingushetia has not disappeared at all the growth rates of its macroeconomic indicators.

Quote: Hupfri

mechanical engineering (from 1909 to 1913, the production of internal combustion engines increased by 283,5%

Again, you are trying to hide the extremely low absolute values ​​behind high growth percentages.
Now explain why, with a threefold increase in ICE production in a year, all the same, "Russian" cars and airplanes had to use almost completely foreign engines.

[murriou]

= * =

Quote: Hupfri

, aircraft manufacturing (just name the most powerful aircraft in the world “Vityaz” and “Ilya Muromets” by I.I. Sikorsky).

1. "Vityaz" was not a serial, but an experimental aircraft.
2. Its engine power indicators (4 * 100) were quickly blocked by Kaproni's achievements: already in the spring of 1914, Ca.1 had a power of 3 * 150, and then completely went off.
3. In speed and altitude, Kaproni’s aircraft also immediately overtook Sikorsky’s.
4. Sikorsky aircraft flew on FOREIGN engines, and in developed countries, even in Italy, on their own. FIAT was able to make its own motors for both cars and airplanes; tsarist Russia could not.
5. We look at power indicators and other indicators in more detail.
We have already dealt with Vityaz and the first version of IM: their record was broken even before the serial production of IM began. Caproni launched the Ca.31 series a month earlier than Sikorsky had time with the first serial Muromets.
Then he had 3 * 270, and 2 * 400, and even 3 * 400.
In 1916. The Ca.36 carried 800kg of bombs, traditionally surpassing the modern Muromtsev in speed and altitude.
By 1917. serial "Muromets" were already hopelessly lagging behind the Ca.4 (3 * 270hp, one and a half tons of bomb load, plus a full combat load, including 8 machine guns!) and Ca.5 (3 * 250hp, bomb load " only "800kg, but the speed is 146km / h and the ceiling is 4km) in all respects.

6. In 1915, Sikorsky increased the power of "IM" up to 4 * 150hp. and again on foreign engines - on what other

In the same 1915, the British launched the "Handley-Page 11", which has a motor power of "only" 2 * 250, but all flight characteristics are much better than that of the Muromtsev: 140 km / h, bomb load 813 kg, flight duration 8 hours ( !), the range is more than 1000 km (!!!).
By the end of WWII, the Bristoli increased the range to 2000 km, and the speed to 170 km / h, and even the single-engine Kangaroo caught up with the Muromtsev in bomb load. And the HP15 (V / 1500) carried 3400kg of bombs at a speed of 156km / h and a ceiling of 3km.

7. In the same 1915, the French entered this race with the Morane-Saulnier S, 2 * 260 hp, (not much less than 4 * 150), which reached the ceiling of 7,8 km and a speed of 137 km / h. By 1917, on Blerio-73, they had increased engine power to 4 * 300hp, bomb load up to 1000kg (twice as much as IM!) Plus a team full of fuel and machine guns with ammunition.

8. In 1916, the Germans also entered the race, and not in the least: the heavy DFW RI bombers immediately started with 2600 kg of bomb load, leaving Muromtsev hopelessly behind, and even the average German bombers Friedrichshafen G.III (IV) in 1917. already took up to 1500 kg of bombs.

9. So, as we can see, since 1915. starting from "Murom" lagged behind the world level, and further the lag only grew, by the end of WWI turning IM into a hopeless loser.
True, by the end of 1916. Sikorsky tried to close the gap by making "Muromets-E" with 4 Renault engines (French, naturally) 220hp each.
However, imported French engines were only enough for 3 aircraft, and it’s somehow difficult to call it a series - And there were no Russian similar engines even in the future.
= * =
10. That's all with the myth of the great and mighty, the best in the world, Russian strategic bomber

[murriou]

Quote: Hupfri

The USSR reached motorization when only a few years remained before the war.

You lied again, congratulations.
The first production cars of the USSR began to be made already in 1924.
This is (1941-1924 =) 17 years before the war, if anyone has forgotten how to count. And then the production rate was already higher than in the Republic of Ingushetia in its entire history.

Yes, according to the Italian model - but DO, and not assemble from ready-made Fiat kits, which was the highest achievement of the AMO under the king.
And the "Russian" pre-revolutionary production cars were no more original than the "AMO-F-15"

BIG Series car production was started in the USSR in 1932, 9 years before the war. In the Russian Empire, there was nothing like this at all.

Quote: Hupfri

With the help of Ford and AUTOCAR

Yes, Ford also sold the license for the first GAZ models, and organized the construction of the plant. No one argued with that.
However, Soviet engineers made a significant refinement of the Ford design for our conditions. This is the strictest secret for the bakers
And what was comparable or better in the Russian Empire?
Since you always evade the answer to this question, I will answer myself: NOTHING.

As for the Autocar, a licensed model, called the AMO-2, was taken from it, but they were not involved in the construction of the plant. The existing AMO enterprise was used - in comparison with the pre-revolutionary, significantly improved already in the 20s ..

Quote: Hupfri

There is not a single enterprise built and equipped by the Soviet Union independently in the prewar years. Helped the same Italy, and a friend of Germany, and the enemy of America.

There was nothing comparable in the Russian Empire. Even with foreign help

Quote: Hupfri

In the Russian Empire, science reached the highest dawn in the prewar decades.

And here I do not argue. Isn’t it so that we are not talking about science, but about industry?

Science in the Republic of Ingushetia was cabinet-cell, in the spirit of the 19th century, and it did not require any high development of the state, as well as vice versa - the development of academic science had very little influence on the state of production.

Well, Mendeleev, all the bakers call him, because usually don’t know anything more about chemistry, crystal baking is generally poorly compatible with education, but I can add Butlerov, and Markovnikov, and Zelinsky, and so on ....
And the most powerful and advanced chemical industry in the world was in Germany, Russia was not even in the leading group.

Well, Zhukovsky-Tsiolkovsky, the creators of the theoretical basis for aviation, yeah, yeah. Whose aircraft design prevailed in "Russian" aviation? That's the same thing.
Well, Popov. One of the first inventors of radio, let’s even take it with a stretch that the very first one. I will not argue about priorities.

However, the overwhelming majority of "Russian" radio stations during WWI were of French and English production, and made using Marconi technology.

And so in everything.

Quote: Hupfri

Subsequently, Russian scientists and engineers who got into emigration were highly valued in all countries and became famous there for many achievements.

Yes, there were enough talented singles in Russia. As in any other more or less civilized country, however.
And what does this have to do with the state of the Russian INDUSTRY?

[siemens7774]

Quote: Hupfri

all constantly forget that between the tsar and the burry, as some put it, there was a liberoid laying in the form of Kerensky and the interim government

Yes, no one forgets about it, this is just the next stage of our conversation.
The fact is that the power of the Tsar is legitimate unconditionally, while many deny the legitimacy of the Provisional Government. For 70 years, the Bolsheviks have worked hard to undermine all confidence in the Provisional Government.
By the way, why is it temporary. Yes, because this is a government created after the February events temporarily before the convening of the Constituent Assembly.
The Bolsheviks couldn’t win legally there and didn’t win a rebellion relying on the lumpenized masses of working people who wanted to drive engineers and craftsmen away, then plunder property from factories, loafers from reserve battalions and from the ships of Kronstadt who did not want to go to the front to fight the enemy and defend their homeland. The coup was accompanied by rampant robbery and drunkenness

[siemens7774]

You wrote in vain about hijacking factories and about craftsmen and engineers. Liberoids who think up their alternative history write such things everywhere. Especially about Baltic Fleet sailors you betrayed your head. Read American intelligence reports for those times in the US National Library or the Library of Congress .And then do not apply thoughts to this topic of Suvorov or Solzhenitsyn. This is a bad manners.

[murriou]

Quote: siemens7774

from the ships of Kronstadt who do not want to go to the front to fight with the enemy

I apologize that the quote contains a reference to the one who quoted, and not to the one who wrote the text realistically - it’s not enough time to look, although I already guess who it might be

For some * talents * it is secret that in 1917 the majority of sailors expressed dissatisfaction of exactly the opposite kind: that their ships marinate away from the war, while the situation of Russia is clearly deteriorating. And they explained this by the fact that their officers - the Germans themselves or the Germans sold out.

Well, they convinced the sailors that their ships were the best in the world, the sailors believed - but in reality, the combat capability of the ships was extremely low, and the tsarist admirals, unlike the sailors, understood that in a real collision with the enemy ships of equal class, the Russians "battleships" only have a quick and inglorious death.

And such a contradiction between the official version and reality inevitably confused the minds of sailors.