Copper and Bronze Erlitou-Erligan (part 6)

71
"And I turned, and saw under the sun,
that it’s not quick to get a successful run,
not a brave victory, not a wise one - bread,
and not rational wealth ... but time and opportunity for all of them. "
(Ecclesiastes 8: 11)


So, today we know that the centers where our ancestors learned to process copper, today revealed not one, and not two, but several. Well, first of all, it is Chatal-Hüyuk and, perhaps, several more “cities” like it, located nearby. Then this is the region of the Great Lakes in the USA, even if everything there was limited to processing native copper and, at best, its hot forging. Further, we can assume that the knowledge that copper can be processed has spread throughout the Middle East to Cyprus, then from there to Crete and the Cyclades, and then to mainland Greece, Malta, Italy and Spain, and to Egypt, to the Sumerians and the Caucasus, and from there to the Black Sea steppes.




Ancient Chinese bronze dagger inlaid with Joe dynasty.

How about regions like ancient India or China? There, people thought of copper processing themselves, how did they think of stone processing, or did some migrants who brought them this technology too? But one thing is to sail on such a sea as the Mediterranean, one can say - from island to island or even because of the coast, and quite another, it is not clear for what to cross the high mountains and deserts.

First people in china

About the same China, we know that at one time, namely 600 - 400 thousands of years ago, during the period of glaciation, there lived a synanthropus or “Peking man” (hence its name), a subspecies of the human race close to Pithecanthropus, however somewhat later and developed. It is believed that the Sinanthropus knew the fire, knew how to make stone tools and were ... cannibals, hunting on their own kind. Many scientists consider them to be a dead end in the development of mankind, however, no matter what, but people in China have been living for a very long time. However, in the Central and Southeast parts of the Asian continent, people have always lived “for a very long time”, as evidenced by archaeological finds in Central Asia, and in India, and in the territory of the same China. In any case, they already lived in these areas in the Neolithic and the Aeneolithic era that followed, as evidenced by the traces they left behind.

For example, in the territories of modern Southern Turkmenistan and Fergana, archaeologists have discovered monuments that are very similar in appearance to the Eneolithic monuments of Southwest Asia. These are the so-called Tepe - high hills, consisting of layers, from successively arising on them villages of the end of the IV – beginning of the III millennium BC. er In them were found the remains of houses made of mud bricks, the walls of which were covered with paintings of geometric patterns. The inhabitants of these villages were engaged in farming, since during the excavations stone grain-graders were discovered.

Cattle breeding in these places did not arise immediately: for example, the bones of sheep, bulls and pigs are found here for the first time only on the fourth meter, if we assume from below; and only later are the bones of these animals more and more.


Dwellings of the Botai culture. National Museum stories Kazakhstan.

A vivid monument of the Eneolithic era was the settlement of Botai in the north of Kazakhstan, referring to the III - II millennium BC. and covering 15 hectares. Here found the remains of 158 dwellings, the walls of which were covered with animal skins, and in the center was a hotbed for cooking and heating the dwelling. Stone implements (arrowheads, spears, knives and axes), bone needles, earthenware and a huge number of horse bones were found, which suggests that the horse was already tamed by horsemen, and not only tamed, but also , used by them for riding and also for hunting their wild relatives! Products not only from stone but also from copper were found in the town of Shebir. Ceramic dishes shebirtsy was egg-shaped, and the pots they were covered with a characteristic comb ornament. Surprisingly, for some reason they were very fond of wearing necklaces from the shells of sea mollusks, although they lived very far from the sea, and their main occupation was hunting! At the same time, the ornaments of them were not only very skillfully processed, but also drilled with a drill.

Copper and Bronze Erlitou-Erligan (part 6)

Flint knife from the tract Botai. National Museum of History of Kazakhstan.

In the other Eneolithic settlements of Central Asia there are dishes, which are also mainly painted with geometric patterns. Moreover, a number of patterns similar to the paintings of the Two Rivers and Elam. Labor tools and weapons local residents made of flint, copper products are already found in the lower archaeological layers. This - awl, leaf knives and some other items. This culture was called the Anau culture, and it is of exceptional interest, primarily because it allows to establish the fact that the ancient population in the south of Central Asia was associated with the equally ancient southern centers of Sumer and Elam. There is evidence to suggest the connection between Anau and the Harappan culture of India (III - the beginning of the II millennium BC.). However, Anau could well serve as a link not only between the ancient civilizations of Dvorichya and India, but also the civilizations of ancient China. The fact is that Chinese archaeologists found in ancient Eneolithic settlements in Xinjiang samples of painted ceramics, similar to Anau culture in their patterns. That is, it can be assumed that these monuments of Xinjiang and North China are to a certain extent connected with the ancient Eastern cultures of both India and Western Asia.

Stone walls and the first copper

Well, in India itself, as far as this can be judged on the basis of available archaeological finds, the transition to the era of metals previously occurred in the mountainous regions of Baluchistan (in the western part of modern Pakistan), adjacent from the west to the Indus valley. The lower layers of the oldest settlements found here belong to the Neolithic era and date back to the first half and middle of the fourth millennium BC. er But in subsequent layers, dating from the end of IV and the first half of III millennium BC. e., already clearly visible transition to the copper age. The settlements of this time become more comfortable and consist of mud brick buildings, sometimes with a stone foundation; some of them are surrounded by walls of truly cyclopean masonry. The inhabitants of these villages is clearly known copper. They make the dishes with the help of potter's wheel and cover them with various multicolored ornaments. The share of farming in their economy was apparently still insignificant, but cattle breeding, by contrast, is very developed. Moreover, the farm has already used a horse, but for what purpose, alas, it has not been established.


Bronze Scythian dagger. Museum of St. Petersburg Mining University.

It was during the Eneolithic era that the tribes living in India were technically armed enough to begin the development of the Indus River Valley, where in the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. er there is an "Indian civilization" or the culture of Harappa, which in many ways can already be considered a class society.

The first copper culture of Yanshao

Yes, but if the ancient Chinese could exchange pottery with the inhabitants of Central Asia, could they not have learned through them how to process metal? This is certainly worth thinking about, but for now it is important to note the fact that China’s most ancient painted dishes are very similar to painted dishes from the Eneolithic settlements of India, the Middle East and ancient Europe, and are found both in the west of the country and in Manchuria and also in the south . One of the most ancient developed cultures of China is the Yanshao culture, one of the settlements of which is “Yanshao site” located on the right bank of the Yellow River, somewhat lower than the confluence of the Wei River into it. Yanshaostsy lived in round or rectangular semi-dwelling with a conical roof, which was supported by pillars, which stood in the center of the dwelling, and were engaged in farming. But hunting and fishing also played a significant role in their lives. Traditional Neolithic tools were used, while copper was unknown to them for a very long time. Only in the later layers of the Yanshao culture, dating back to the end of the fourth millennium BC, did the first traces of copper processing be found.


Characteristic ceramic vessel culture Yanshao. British Museum, London.

At the same time, an anthropological study of human remains from the burials of Yanshao shows that its population in its ethnic relation was mostly very close ... to the modern population of these localities. Moreover, this proximity is confirmed by the presence of three-legged vessels, very characteristic of later Chinese ceramics. And, judging by the findings, the farmers of ancient China, who knew the metal, not only came into contact with hunter-gatherers in the steppes and with fishermen of coastal territories, did not know the metal, but also had quite close ties with them and ... exactly the same connections existed with them and with other related cultures of farmers.

And again the copper and the walls ...

Culture Yanshao, apparently, lasted until the end of the III millennium BC. e., when in North China there were big changes in the economy and culture. In the lower reaches of the Yellow River, in Shandong and Shanxi, as well as in the Shanghai and Hangzhou areas, a large number of settlements of the so-called Longshan culture were found, and copper and ... bronze items were found in them! It is believed that the culture of Longshan originated on the basis of the culture of Yanshao, but influenced from outside by migrants from Central Asia! They brought here with themselves a potter's wheel, new varieties of grain (wheat from the Middle East) and breeds of cattle (goat, sheep, cow). Quite often, the settlements of Lunshantsy were surrounded by earthen ramparts, on which a palisade stood, and the shaft of one of them had a circumference of 15 km. The huts had the appearance of round huts with a furnace and were no longer buried in the ground. Next to the stoves, stove benches with rows of parallel chimneys passing through them, similar to the kans in later Chinese fans, were arranged, so that this heating system of dwellings, as we see, has a very long history. The population of these villages was engaged in farming, but cattle breeding was also developing - sheep, pigs, bulls and horses were bred here. Ceramics was very different from Yanshao, primarily because it was unclear why there were no paintings on it, and it was gray or completely black. But the three-legged vessels, beloved by the ancient Chinese, called and connecting the Eneolithic era in China with the subsequent history of its material culture up to the Han period (i.e., the end of the 1st millennium BC), to archaeologists met here.


Characteristic three-legged culture dishes Longshan. British Museum, London.

Well, the very presence of fortifications around the villages suggests that their inhabitants were from whom to defend themselves and what to protect and, accordingly, about the complication of the social relations that existed between them. Obviously, it was at this time that the foundation of the new society was taking shape, the basis of which was slavery and property inequality. But since we are talking about copper metallurgy, again, it is not very clear whether the ancient Chinese themselves thought up how to process copper, or did they borrow this technology from some other nations, along with painted ceramics samples .

So some experts believe that the metallurgy of copper and bronze originated in China independently, that is, in fact it was also a matter of chance, and therefore it can also be attributed to one of the centers of origin of metalworking. Others insist that this art came to the Chinese from the West. Moreover, there are arguments both in those and in others, and it remains only to hope that subsequent finds will be able to clarify the situation.

"The Mystery of Erlitou-Erligan"

Its essence lies in the fact that the Erlitou culture dated by archaeologists 2100 - 1800 (1500) is considered to be the earliest culture of the Bronze Age in North China. BC. However, experts state that its characteristic bronze casting technique is not the earliest stage of local bronze metallurgy. But the earlier culture, preceding Erlitou, was not found in the Yellow River basin, although isolated finds of copper and bronze items were found there at the sites of the more ancient Lunshan culture. These findings allowed historians to make the assumption that local bronze metallurgy just arose on the basis of its achievements, as a result of which it has an independent origin.


Area of ​​culture Erlitou.

The problem, however, is that the then Chinese metallurgy was distinguished by the highest technology of bronze casting. That is, not only that somehow, very suddenly the Chinese Erlitou switched from copper to bronze. They also used technologies that other nations did not even suspect. At that time, metallurgists from the West and the Middle East made bronze products by forging, casting into sand or stone open molds on top of the mold, and used the “lost mold” technology, here they mastered a much more laborious and original “lump molding” method. And since this method combines both ceramics and metallurgy techniques, this indicates a general high level of the then Chinese foundry technology.


Vessels for wine culture Erlitou. City Museum Loyang, China.

The essence of this method was as follows. The model for casting was made not from wax, but from clay, on the surface of which the necessary relief was cut. Then she was removed from the form of clay, sticky piece after piece, on a previously prepared model. After that, on each of the pieces from the inside, a fine finishing of the relief was carried out, and then these pieces of clay were burned, which also required considerable skill, because in the process of finishing and burning the drawing should not be broken.


Stone tools labor culture Erlitou. OK. 1500 BC Provincial Museum Heyang, China.

The original clay model was ground outside the thickness of the walls of the future casting, and as a result, a mold was obtained consisting of two layers, because it was covered with burned parts of the outer form outside. The seams and joints between them were not tightly sealed up specifically so that metal would flow into them. And this was done for a reason, and not from inability, but solely to ensure that the metal, frozen in the seams, could be given the appearance of a special elegant edge, which introduced into each such product a certain special decorative charm. Moreover, the use of vertical casting seams to decorate molded products became, over time, even the tradition of Chinese metallurgical art.


Ancient Chinese bronze vessel of ritual purpose, made in the technology of "lump molding". Shang Dynasty

Well, after the form was ready, molten bronze was poured into the empty space between the outer and inner walls. And it is clear that it was simply physically impossible to remove the casting without breaking the mold, so each such casting was a completely unique product, because the mold for its manufacture could not be used anymore! Interestingly, such product parts as handles or legs of a vessel were cast separately and inserted into a ceramic mold so that during casting they would be “welded” to it molten metal. Sometimes they acted differently: first the body was cast, and the parts were “welded” to it when re-casting.

Well, as for the settlements of Erlitou culture and Erligan’s related culture (sometimes referred to as “Erligan phase” that existed in 1600 - 1400 BC), this is nothing like the ancient cities, and the ruins of palaces and bronze smelting workshops were discovered. Moreover, if in the first phase of its development the city occupied an area of ​​100 ha, in the second phase (each phase lasted about 100 years) already 300 ha, and in the third there was already a walled palace. Then the phase of decline began, but the city continued to remain a city and buildings were still built in it, and bronze articles were cast in workshops.


Stone form for casting axes (Sardinia).

Erligang culture was larger and more developed, and the perimeter of its length surrounded by a wall about seven kilometers. There is also found a large palace complex and several craft workshops (for some reason outside the city walls), including a workshop casters. Here, metal implements and weapons were found knives, awl, chisel, arrowheads and Klevtsov. Chemical analysis of these and other metal products shows that they were all made of bronze. However, instead of tin, zinc was used in the alloy. In particular, the chemical composition of the metal from which the bit was molded found there, was as follows: Cu - 98%, Sn - 1%; and at the vessel: Cu - 92%, Sn - 7%.

In social terms, erligansky Erlitou culture-complex (and the whole "phase Erligang culture") different from the replaced it anyanskoy culture that inequality has not been as noticeable: the leader was more elder community collective than its sovereign ruler. No authority regalia, accessories of high positions, or graves in the form of tombs with mass burials of people and things were found. Although the palaces were already. No evidence was found and any noticeable traces the development of worship and rituals designed to serve social and tops symbolize their greatness, although people already engaged in fortune-telling, and cast vessels quite clearly for ritual purposes.


Chinese bronze dagger of the Joe dynasty.

In any case, amazing unusually high level of metal processing technology, which seemingly has not brought any where and appeared at erlitoustsev-erligantsev not clear how. Possible "time and chance" were for them, or so high technology were the result of concerted efforts of the ancient masters, or, again, suddenly broke out at one of them in the head inspiration ?! Of course, we can say that the archaeological excavations in China are relatively new, and that is the "missing link" is still found. However, today the picture is as follows: one-piece copper and bronze coming to China from neighboring western lands and peoples from living there, and then - bang, and immediately an unexpected rise of high-level technology.

(To be continued)
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  1. 0
    20 October 2016 06: 56
    1. kalibr "very close to the Eneolithic sites of Asia Minor."
    kalibr "The bones of sheep, bulls and pigs are found here for the first time only at the fourth meter, if you count from below;"

    He personally participated in Eneolithic exploration. 1970 year. Xun River, the left bank, about 70 km from above the confluence with the Belaya River, Bashkiria. The depth of the cultural layer is about one and a half meters from the surface. Your 4 meters is definitely a Paleolithic.
    Interesting stratigraphy! As a rule, in the excavation layers are removed from top to bottom.
    2. kalibr Yesterday, 07:44 "Information war of the West against Ivan the Terrible"
    Interesting material and quite suitable for publication in other publications, except for VO. For example, in the journal "History of State and Law". The only thing that is needed is to provide links (page by page) to each given fact and at the end a list of used literature. It seems that it will not be difficult for the author, and the journal will only benefit from this. In addition, it is always pleasant to expand, so to speak, the circle of your intellectual communication. It is one thing for a VO audience and quite another for "History of State and Law".

    Replace the journal "History of State and Law" with "Russian Archeology" in your quote and apply to this article.
    1. +2
      20 October 2016 07: 38
      I envy you very much. I also "dug" in the first year of the institute in practice in 1972, but this is not at all that. We dug the Penza serif line of 1663. About stratigraphy. This phrase is taken from the material ... I did not come up with it myself, of course. And there, there were other depths. It is possible. As for the publication of an article in "Archeology ...". That makes no sense in this article. I work at the Department of Philosophy and Social. communications and it will not go into my report on science, but there is a lot of trouble with it. I already have a lot of scientific articles - so another one appeared in "History of State and Law" No. 13 in the summer. This will happen later, someday there will be another monograph. With solid historiography, links. In the meantime, this is a popular "draft". Yesterday the department decided to write a scientific monograph on our specialty, so I’ll have enough work without it. Nevertheless, it is good to be reminded! You can only write about where he was and what he touched - that is, about Choirokitia. This will be interesting, yes. But you need to think about how best to do it. Anyway. thanks. I completely forgot about this magazine.
      1. 2-0
        0
        20 October 2016 09: 30
        "You can only write about where he was and what he touched ...."

        Oh no no no! But what about books on samurai, although not a foot to Japan, not to mention Japanese advertising?
        Conjuncturas-s and loot-s?
        1. 0
          20 October 2016 09: 51
          Archeology articles are something different from popular science publications. Archeology of Russia is a scientific journal. And my graduate student was in Japanese advertising in Japan. And then, we live in the age of the Internet. It is enough to look at the advertisement to appreciate it. But for the "pieces of iron" should be held. Although, yes, it is also possible purely theoretical and translated articles - "introduction of new sources of information into scientific circulation."
    2. 0
      20 October 2016 13: 01
      why do we need china? Why not write about archaeological finds in Russia? Especially since there are a huge number of such excavations in the era of Eneolithic and Bronze? What side are you avoiding Russia?
      1. +1
        20 October 2016 13: 24
        Time! Have you not noticed that in the articles material is submitted from antiquity to us? There will be a corresponding chronological period - it will be about us. In addition, there were already my articles about the Seymins-Turbines and the Borodino treasure, that is, finds on the territory of the Russian Federation and the former USSR. I agree that this is not enough. But you won’t write about everything at one time. You see that this is a series of articles.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          20 October 2016 14: 05
          in "Archeology" under the editorship of Rybakov enealit on ter. The USSR belongs to the 3rd millennium BC. , and in china that enealite with bronze began earlier?
  2. +1
    20 October 2016 08: 12
    And this was done not just like that, and not out of inability, but solely so that the metal hardened in the seams could be given the appearance of a special elegant edge, which would bring a special decorative charm to each such product.

    There may be two options for the initial appearance
    1. Lump molding requires accurate fitting of the pieces and their reliable fixation, since the melt pressure will push them apart, which is not so easy to take into account the fragility of the clay-shaped material.
    2. In order to prevent air bubbles from accumulating on the surface of a complex pattern during traditional casting, special gas-discharge punctures are used, but the gaps between the pieces of the mold can play the same role.
    Therefore, probably, such seams could initially be a consequence of the insufficient development of the molding technique, which later turned into a necessary element of high-quality casting. Well, then they became a design element.
    1. +1
      20 October 2016 08: 58
      Most likely it was, but to say the exact thing, alas, is impossible.
      1. 0
        20 October 2016 14: 10
        By the way, on the wiki there is a high resolution photo of the bronze castings of the Zhou Dynasty that you mentioned by ka Jou. Many features of casting and marriage and seams are visible there.
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B6%D0%BE%
        D1%83_(%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8
        % D1% 8F)
  3. 0
    20 October 2016 10: 54
    We know about the same China that in due time, namely 600 - 400 thousand years ago, during the period of glaciation, the synanthropus lived there
    --------------------
    Oh how !? As far as I know, the scientific world has long denied the authenticity of Sinanthropus. Or am I not aware of something?
    1. 0
      20 October 2016 11: 17
      And how much do you know? This is the first time I've read about it ... But you can’t know everything, of course. You would give a link to the source.
      I looked at the sources ... From the banal Wikipedia in Russian and English, to the site of British Sinology. Nowhere is this written. It is written that many scientists are inclined to consider them a dead end branch. But about what you wrote there is nowhere.
  4. 0
    20 October 2016 15: 37
    The author has a gross typo in the chemical composition of bronze-zinc is designated as Zn, and Sn is stanum, the periodic table to help
    1. 0
      20 October 2016 19: 15
      Quote: Partizan Kramaha
      The author has a gross typo in the chemical composition of bronze-zinc is designated as Zn, and Sn is stanum, the periodic table to help

      This is a mistake in your head! The alloy of copper with zinc is called brass, and bronze is an alloy of copper and your STANUM in Russian tin. Learn materiel student wassat
  5. 0
    20 October 2016 16: 47
    speak Chinese))))))
    in the province of Sichuan on one of the stones of the Chinese wall there is an inscription - "the course of rati yara"
    1. +1
      20 October 2016 17: 14
      Arias from Eastern Europe traveled in chariots to India in 1500-1700 BC. They would have (hypothetically) reached the central regions of China by about 1000 years BC, i.e. after mastering the processing of copper and bronze in China.

      And the language of the Aryans was not Slavic, but Sanskrit.

      Most likely, the protoarians from Altai 6000 BC reached the central regions of China on the basis of finds in these areas of ceramics with a swastika sign.
      1. 0
        20 October 2016 17: 49
        Although the chariots of the Aryans, discovered in the Erlitou bronze culture area, date from the period 1600 BC. - the time of the sudden development by local Chinese of bronze smelting technology.

        It remains only to find the characteristic burial places of the Aryans with the burning of the remains of people and horses.

        PS Apparently, the Chinese initially specialized in copy paste laughing
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Cat
          0
          20 October 2016 19: 04
          A number of scholars associate the influence of the Aryans in China with the appearance of the latest domestic bulls, horses and pigs. Moreover, these waves are distinguished in different ways from 6 to 000 years BC.
          1. +2
            20 October 2016 19: 53
            I don’t know how it is with livestock and pack horses, and the distribution map in time / space of war chariots (and draft horses) according to archaeological finds looks like this



            PS By the way, the map clearly shows that the "advanced" Greeks, Egyptians, Romans and Celts were able to adopt the war chariots and draft horses from the Aryans much later than the "wild" Eastern Slavs.
            1. +1
              20 October 2016 20: 30
              And where is it written that the Slavs are wild, which of the historians? There is an interesting book in England about chariots ... "History of war chariots" There is nothing about the savagery of the peoples of the East European Plain.
              1. 0
                20 October 2016 21: 34
                For historians adhering to the Norman theory, the Slavs ("wild" and not "wild") are generally absent as a class before the beginning of our era laughing
                1. +1
                  20 October 2016 21: 44
                  You know, I've never read about wild Slavs anywhere. "For historians who adhere to ...." - surnames, please, and at least a couple of links to the pages where they write that.
                  1. 0
                    20 October 2016 22: 30
                    The first mention of the Slavs in historical literature: "The way of life is rough and unpretentious, like that of the Massagetae, and, like those, they are constantly covered in mud [ laughing ] ", - Procopius of Caesarea, History of Wars, VI century AD.

                    And away we go ... if you wish, you will find yourself.
                    1. 0
                      21 October 2016 07: 28
                      I mean the historians of our time ... and the opinion of those is difficult to evaluate. They are both eyewitnesses and opportunists at the same time. But Procopius as a source is evaluated positively. And a rude lifestyle is the same compared to refined Rome.
                      1. 0
                        21 October 2016 14: 28
                        Procopius of Caesarea - Greek.

                        I brought him on purpose, since he is the first of the historians to mention the Slavs (and blurted out on the constant dirt right away - one thing during the period of hostilities, another thing in civilian life if the Slavs have obligatory sauna-stones).

                        It is disgusting to mention modern historians (including Russian ones) who still write nonsense about the Normans as the founders of Russia, and even with emphasis on their civilizational influence on the Eastern Slavs, and this despite the fact that the latter already built cities in large numbers in the 9th century (Rus - Gardarika) and had a settled image of life, and the Scandinavians huddled in the villages, hunted in raids and still hung out, as they say in an ice hole with their migrations to England, France and Italy.
            2. Cat
              +1
              21 October 2016 04: 21
              I’m more interested in why the conversation is about several waves of resettlement of Indo-Europeans, including China. And with such a serious period of time of almost 4 years.
              1. The wave on the bulls with stone axes.
              2. The wave on the chariots.
              1. +1
                21 October 2016 14: 41
                Version - the migrations of the proto-Aryans (on foot from Altai 8000 years ago) and Aryans (on chariots from Eastern Europe 3600 years ago) to China were caused by the "awl in the ass" of our closest relatives laughing
        3. +1
          20 October 2016 19: 53
          Lord, the great Operator Ariev Javilssi to us. How are the Chinese looking for R1a? Lucky?
          1. 0
            20 October 2016 20: 04
            Longing for the historical homeland tortured?
            1. 0
              20 October 2016 20: 09
              Quote: Operator
              Longing for the historical homeland tortured?

              Why did you put a question mark at the end? Don’t be embarrassed, you want to go to China ... on a chariot laughing
              1. 0
                20 October 2016 21: 41
                And why are you so embarrassed by your Chinese ancestors - C, N, D and O that you even want to remove the question mark? I really respect my Altai R, R1, R2, R1a and R1b.

                Over the past 8000 years, my relatives have already visited China twice (on foot and in military chariots). Guess what kind of transport we use for the third time bully
                1. 0
                  20 October 2016 22: 14
                  Really along the Silk Road kayaking?
                  1. 0
                    20 October 2016 22: 20
                    You know, I like planes - T-50, for example.
      2. +1
        20 October 2016 21: 04
        Quote: Operator
        And the language of the Aryans was not Slavic, but Sanskrit.


        Sanskrit and Russian are two very similar languages, we can say that dead Sanskrit is an adverb-dialect of living Russian.
        1. +1
          20 October 2016 21: 42
          Yes, and therefore both are in the same group of Indo-European languages.
          1. 0
            20 October 2016 21: 54
            Quote: kalibr
            Yes, and therefore both are in the same group of Indo-European languages.


            no, not because, but because the words are the same.
            1. +1
              20 October 2016 22: 14
              The coincidence of words is a particular, Russian coincides with the Turkic, Ugro-Finnish and Semitic languages ​​in many modern words, but this does not mean that they are related to each other.

              Most importantly, Sanskrit, Slavic and Russian (as well as Farsi, Pashto and Hindi) coincide with their inflectivity, grammar, syntax, etc.

              Russian also coincides (to a lesser extent) with Romance and Germanic languages, since they are based on a mixture of Sanskrit with Semitic, Celtic and Illyrian languages.
          2. +1
            20 October 2016 21: 55
            From a chronological point of view, the Slavic language is a Sanskrit dialect, and Russian is a Slavic dialect.
            1. 0
              20 October 2016 22: 23
              Quote: Operator
              From a chronological point of view, the Slavic language is a Sanskrit dialect, and Russian is a Slavic dialect.


              I think that the group of Slavic languages ​​is a formation of the last time, the world is split into new states and new languages ​​arise accordingly. For example, earlier in the 19th century there were three times less states on earth. And to take Ukrainian, but it didn’t exist at all in the 19th century, respectively, and there wasn’t such a people, this is a vivid example of how languages ​​and myths are created about what were first, some Slavs, by the way in all chronicles -WORD and among one of the many languages ​​was Russian, and so it was the other way around, there was ONE RUSSIAN, and from it the other Slavic languages ​​grew.
              And the Slavs are people-people of glory i.e. glorified.
              1. +1
                20 October 2016 22: 52
                Slavs - self-designation, means people glorifying the same gods (Perun, Dazhbog, Veles, etc.) in the same language (with variations, of course).

                For example, the Balts, glorifying Perunkas in their languages, were not recognized by the Slavs. And the Western and Southern Slavs (Vendians, Ruyan, Rus, Pomeranians, Poles, Czechs, Serbs, Croats, Ants and Bulgarians) were recognized by the Slavs due to the coincidence of languages, even after they adopted Christianity.

                The Slavs also designated themselves the inhabitants of the Middle Russian Plain - Slovenia, Krivichi, Vyatichi, glade, etc. up to the resettlement of the West Slavic tribe Rus from Porussia (Borussia, Prussia, present Kaliningrad region) in the 9th century to the Ladoga Lake region on the left bank of the Rusa River (present Neman).

                The Russian tribe united the Eastern Slavic tribes into the Russian state and gave self-name to the titular people of this state. Russians / Russians directly became part of the Slavs.
                1. 0
                  21 October 2016 06: 57
                  Well, you can write competent things without attracting Aryans by the ears.
                  1. 0
                    21 October 2016 15: 10
                    Arias - the self-name of the people who came from Eastern Europe to Anatolia, Central Asia, Iran and India in the fourth millennium BC.

                    Currently, the main ethnic group of Eastern Europe is the Slavs, the main ethnic group of Russia is the Russians.

                    The dominant haplogroup of Russians, Slavs and Aryans is R1a. Only the Aryans, Slavs and Russians (before the adoption of Christianity) practiced burial with the burning of the remains of people and horses.

                    Anywhere in Eurasia, where the remains of people with the haplogroup R1a or burials with burnt remains of people and horses are found, Arias, Slavs or Russians have visited (depending on the dating of the burial).

                    What's not clear?
                    1. 0
                      21 October 2016 19: 36
                      What's not clear?

                      It is unclear why you wrote all this.
                      My previous post was not a joke.
                      Well, it’s not clear for what purpose you are trying to attribute all human achievements to the Aryans, is it your complex or something?
                      1. 0
                        21 October 2016 20: 14
                        What are "all human achievements" - the Aryans invented only the wheel and the war chariot.

                        The Semites brought out grain crops, cattle and a horse domesticated the Celts, the Hamites built the pyramids, the Caucasians mastered the processing of metals, the Mongols invented a hard saddle, the Chinese invented gunpowder and paper.

                        The multilateral contribution of the Hindus, Greeks, Romans and Arabs to world civilization is well known to everyone.

                        In this regard, the Aryans did (with the exception of the invention of the wheel and chariots) "little" - they just promoted the achievements of civilization:
                        - taught the Chinese to make ceramics and bronze;
                        - assimilated the Semites of the Near East and the Indians of India;
                        - organized the invasion of assimilated Semites in Greece (Dorians), Italy (Etruscans) and Egypt (Hyksos), forming developed civilizations there;
                        - invaded Nordic (Austria) and formed a Celtic civilization;
                        - suppressed attempts to destroy European civilization from the Mongols, Arabs and Turks;
                        - provided the greatest distribution area for their descendants in the face of the Slavs.

                        And also founded all four world religions:
                        - Judaism (carrier R1a Moses);
                        - Christianity (carrier R1a John the Baptist);
                        - Islam ((carrier R1a Muhammad);
                        - Buddhism (carrier R1a Siddhartha Gautama).

                        Well, and something else on the little things - the first flight into space, etc. etc.

                        But by and large, we, the Aryans / Slavs / Russians, of course, are orphans and wretched laughing
                      2. 0
                        21 October 2016 20: 55
                        From what did you bring the wheel to wassat
                        In general, without going into a modest list of acts of the Aryans. I just wanted to clarify where the gene material of Buddha, Muhammad, John and Moses came from. to say so about their Aryan origin?
                  2. +1
                    21 October 2016 16: 44
                    Quote: rasteer
                    Well, you can write competent things without attracting Aryans by the ears.


                    he himself said that you Jews were going to become Aryans, that you changed your mind already?
                    1. 0
                      21 October 2016 19: 29
                      Yes, you how can I say that belay shekels don’t pay for it wassat
                      I was just amazed at the argument that all world religions, including Judaism, have Aryan roots.
                      Although not so, I knew it without you, however, as well as the ways and time of the resettlement of the Aryans.
                      The question is different. How did you come to this with your clumsy xenophobia and nationalism?
                      1. 0
                        21 October 2016 21: 33
                        Quote: rasteer
                        I was just amazed at the argument that all world religions, including Judaism, have Aryan roots.

                        unlikely, I think the Aryans were neither Christians, nor Jews, nor any other Abramists, the Aryans were Vedists.


                        Quote: rasteer
                        The question is different. How did you come to this with your clumsy xenophobia and nationalism?

                        up to what?
    2. 0
      20 October 2016 19: 14
      A local amateur historian once came to me and said that he had found a piece of leather where it is written that Penza was founded not in 1663, but in 1552. Opening! Sensation!!! "Bring it!" Came, brought ... showed ... a lump of caked skin the size of a walnut. There are folds and cracks on it. You cannot deploy! "Where is the inscription?" - I say. And he - "Here!" and pokes into cracks and folds. And what do we think, I say - from the Nativity of Christ or from the creation of the world? So he, poor, did not understand what his puncture was. But he did it with foam and mouth - that's 1552! Forcibly floated him to the museum! I hope they figured out to call the brigade and ... send him where necessary. Since I have never met him again.
  6. +1
    20 October 2016 19: 37
    Vyacheslav in his story about the development of bronze in China, you missed one truly interesting "culture of Sanxingdui" from the point of view of a connecting link. Known from about 2800 BC. It is located about 800 km to the southwest. At the same time, the appearance of the products is in many ways not typical for the Chinese cultures of that time.
    1. 0
      20 October 2016 20: 08
      Do you represent the volume of such an article? She will be unreadable. There were a number of cultures, as well as ours - here you and Khvalynskaya, and Sursky and .... You have to sacrifice something. Rybakov wrote only 364 pages on the Eneolithic in the territory of the USSR. Only! I do not set such a task solely because of the volume and other goals - to show not even the metal itself, but the level of communications of that time.

      I looked again at the material on this culture. Yes, the statues and masks are interesting and unusual. But among the ceramics there are "three-point" samples. Moreover, it is hardly imported - the clays are local, like other dishes. This means that the difference was in the volumes of pouring. In general, material about this culture asks for the pages of something like the magazine "Secrets and riddles". Type: "Bronze giants of the Sanxingdui village." Well, about the fact that the masks are either Maya or aliens.
      1. 0
        20 October 2016 20: 22
        I singled out Sansidui because of the presence of things that are extremely atypical for China among artifacts. First of all, a bronze tree and statuettes of birds and a rooster made rather
        in Indo-European rather than Chinese style.
      2. 2-0
        +1
        20 October 2016 20: 26
        Finally about the Chinese and early cultures on their territory to write, only x .. stupid.
        The PRC strongly secretes all independent excavations, and allows European expeditions to be limited and extremely limited. Areas of incomprehensible pyramids and parking sites of Caucasians are closed.
        Closed access to rock monasteries.
        The grave of the 1st emperor (the pyramid itself or the bulk hill - anyone like it) is not opened supposedly because of the increased mercury content in the soil. Mercury rivers and lakes are suggested.
        Moreover, the area of ​​the grave of the 1st emperor is also almost closed, there they have several serious military bases.

        The chronology of Chinese cultures is very difficult to establish. There are few facts, and it is necessary to correlate with the Siberian-Far East-Asian excavations, and in our Siberia and D. East, the cat wept

        Moreover, in addition to the discovered cultures of pure Caucasians, there are all kinds of Khitan, Manchurians, supposedly Mongols, etc. etc.
        1. 0
          20 October 2016 21: 09
          Quote: 2-0
          Finally about the Chinese and early cultures on their territory to write, only x .. stupid.

          Fomenko and Nosovsky wrote that Chinese astronomical chronicles are a census from European astronomical tables. And what is characteristic of the Chinese (such as the older ones) are the same errors as in the European (later) ones, and this is already proof of a hundred percent fake.
          1. 0
            20 October 2016 21: 41
            Your Fomenko and Nosovsky simply do not know the dating of the passage of Halley’s comet reflected on one famous historical ... artifact, but they write something about astronomical tables and dates. It’s ridiculous.
            1. 0
              20 October 2016 23: 06
              Quote: kalibr
              Your Fomenko and Nosovsky simply do not know the dating of the passage of Halley’s comet reflected on one famous historical ... artifact, but they write something about astronomical tables and dates. It’s ridiculous.


              But is it possible to prove this fact, so as not to be unfounded?
              1. +1
                21 October 2016 07: 35
                Look, I wrote about Halley's comet - not enough. I wrote about a famous artifact - not enough. Why didn't I write more? And so that you yourself think, look into the works of your favorites and figure out what I mean. But ... I did not achieve what I wanted! Therefore, the answer is an embroidery from Bayeux, which dates the event of 1066 and ... the passage of a comet. Knowing the periodicity, we can, with a high degree of accuracy, separate the time scales in both directions and the closer to us the more often this event is mentioned and the periodicity is maintained. So on that one thing their whole "theory" collapses. And down the line of history, the rise of Sirius, celebrated by the Egyptians, comes to our aid.
                1. 0
                  21 October 2016 10: 20
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Knowing the periodicity, we can with a high degree of accuracy separate the time scales in both directions, and the closer to us the more often this event is mentioned and the periodicity is maintained. So on that one thing their whole "theory" collapses.


                  on what on "this"? The PhiN not only investigated in detail the astronomical chronicles of China ", the carpet" from Bayeux and the frequency of passage of Halley's comet, what was there to investigate, if the Angles Conuel and Cromelin had already counted everything and made tables long before them. Fin went further and were able to carry out an EXACT DATING of this "carpet" and it certainly turned out not to be 1066 and not the Battle of Hastings and may even be not a Christian story (considering the possibility of forgery due to the late date of finding the "carpet") - my addition.
                  In short, Shpakovsky accuse Fomenko and Nosovsky of the fact that they-mathematicians did not conscientiously study the frequency of the appearance of celestial bodies or could not figure out what "astronomy of ancient China" is - these are just sweeping and dishonest statements in favor of the concept of TI. You obviously have not read "Baptism yourself Rus "or" Piebala Horde ", hence your illiterate and insulting statement, and, most likely, obviously from someone's words.
                  1. 0
                    22 October 2016 13: 23
                    Quote: Thought
                    Fin went further and were able to carry out an EXACT DATING of this "carpet" and it certainly turned out not to be 1066 and not the Battle of Hastings and may even be not a Christian story (considering the possibility of forgery due to the late date of finding the "carpet") - my addition.


                    And what is depicted then? And why is it written - HAROLD, Guillaume Edward - and why does everything coincide with the texts of various historians and chroniclers? 70 m fakes, why? As for the insults ... so I have not started yet. Well, the Bible says: “Do not argue with a fool for his stupidity, so as not to become like him, do not argue with a fool for his stupidity, so that he does not exalt himself in his eyes”
                    1. 0
                      22 October 2016 22: 50
                      Quote: kalibr
                      And what is depicted then? And why is it written - HAROLD, Guillaume Edward - and why does everything coincide with the texts of various historians and chroniclers? 70 m fakes, but why


                      these inscriptions are fakes, just later inserts, as most likely the image of crosses, symbols of Christianity. And this was revealed by the horoscope on this canvas. Why fake it? A strange question, of course, an artifact to the TI piggy bank, why else, the century is 18-19m, given the history of this banner.


                      Quote: kalibr
                      Well, the Bible says: “Do not argue with a fool for his stupidity, so as not to become like him, do not argue with a fool for his stupidity, so that he does not exalt himself in his eyes”


                      Well, usually smart people don’t boast about quotes from the Bible and its similar books, because real science rejects the existence of God, people came up with gods, and the Bible is not too smart people.
      3. 0
        20 October 2016 20: 38
        Can I link to the triceum vessels? I could not find them in works on Sansingdui.
        The works described for the early period only flat-bottomed vessels and on the pallet. In the late period, sharp-pointed ceramics appear.
        1. 0
          20 October 2016 20: 57


          There are photos of trees, and figures, and masks, and ceramics there. And among the flat-bottomed, such a vessel is exactly the same color as the flat-bottomed. Look, you will see everything for yourself.
          1. +1
            20 October 2016 21: 23
            Thank. Found a whole gallery on a flick from the Sansingdui Museum.
            Interestingly, the Chinese are comparing their masks with the masks of the pharaohs,
            and a bronze tree with images of the world tree of European peoples.
            1. 0
              20 October 2016 21: 26
              That's it - this phrase alone asks for an article about MYSTERIES ....
  7. +2
    21 October 2016 04: 31
    And the article is interesting and comments.
  8. 0
    21 October 2016 21: 23
    rasteer,
    Moses and John the Baptist come from the tribe of Levi, where 65 percent are carriers of R1a (descendants of the Mitannian Aryans).
    Muhammad comes from the sheikhs of the Arabian tribe Kureish, where the majority are the same carriers of R1a.
    Siddhartha Gautama comes from the highest caste of northern India, where up to 75 percent are carriers of R1a (descendants of the Rigveda Aryans).
    1. 2-0
      0
      21 October 2016 22: 09
      No, well, rzhunimaga ... And where did the gynecology of Moses and John come from?
      What is there in the Bible, silence about gynecology?
      Mitanni, like him, my memory, Hanadalbat - Mesopotamia, Semites like, what kind of arias? There are disassemblies on the localization of the living, which are on, arias?
      Arias (hto such nihto does not know) because of the Russian Arctic Circle, Hyperborea, on ... Herodotus, b !!!!

      Buddha ... well, it’s clear. What caste? And 25% of the castes, hto?
      1. 2-0
        0
        21 October 2016 22: 28
        Eh-ma confusion, somehow I hurried according to Moses, the Exodus gives the coordinates ...
  9. 0
    1 November 2016 17: 58
    In synology, it is customary to call a dynasty Zhou.

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