Military Review

Min is there!

125
The commander of the Life Guards Semenov regiment, Major General Georgy Alexandrovich Min in textbooks stories was named among the main punishers of the revolutionary Moscow 1905 of the year. Today, rethinking the past, we have the right to ask ourselves: who was this man the savior of the Fatherland or the murderer?


The long-time ancestors of the general moved to Russia from Flanders, entering military service under Peter I. In the Minov family, there were hardly more soldiers than writers, and if Georgy’s father Alexander Yevgenyevich ended his service as lieutenant-general, all three of his brothers were writers and publicists. Our hero was also fond of literature, but preferred to serve in the army. Physically developed, with a strong character and sincere faith, a romantic at heart, named after the patron saint of the Russian army, George the Victorious, he seemed to be created for military service. And decided to start it, as his idol Alexander Suvorov, baseman. Having successfully graduated from the 1 Moscow Gymnasium, the son of the general chooses not a military school, not the Page Corps, promising a fast and successful career, but enters as a private in the Guards Semenov regiment as a volunteer. This military status was different from just a soldier, primarily because at the end of his service he gave the right to his carrier to become an officer, subject to successful passing the exam. Having stayed in the lower ranks of the required period, Georgy Alexandrovich was promoted to warrant officer.

Min is there!The Russian-Turkish war began. The Semenov regiment was directly involved in this campaign. The young ensign along with the regiment was in all the battles that befell his unit: crossing the Danube, taking Pleven, storming Pravetsky heights, fighting at Dolny Dubnyak, crossing the Balkans, taking Sofia, Andriapolya, San Stefano. Often risking his head, he, as if conspired, was not even slightly injured. Having shown enviable courage, personal heroism, excellent organizational skills, by the end of the war he already commanded a lieutenant commanded a company. For military distinctions awarded the Order of St. Anne 4-th degree "For Bravery" and St. Stanislav 3-th degree with swords and bow. The war ended, but the authority of Mina among officers and subordinates continues to grow. In 1884, he is appointed to the post of a regimental adjutant with the rank of lieutenant, and 1887 is appointed as a member of the regimental court — his extreme scrupulousness in matters of service and officer's honor.

The next stage in the career of George Alexandrovich, by that time Colonel, was a business trip to Turkestan, where the plague epidemic broke out in 1889. Here he is placed at the disposal of Prince Alexander of Oldenburg, who is leading the fight against a terrible disease on the outskirts of Russia. By manifesting his best business and human qualities, Ming enthralled the new boss, their relationship ceased to be a true friendship. Upon returning to the capital, the prince did not fail to tell the sovereign about the active colonel, Semyonovts. And Georgy Alexandrovich in the meantime becomes the chairman of the regimental court. In 1903, he was appointed as commander of the 12 Grenadier Astrakhan Emperor Alexander III Regiment stationed in Moscow, whom he had commanded for almost a year. At the end of 1904, to the delight of his former colleagues, Colonel Ming was appointed commander of the Semenov regiment, and soon he was given the rank of court adjutant, which classifies him as Nicholas II retinue and gives the right to wear an imperial monogram and agel on an epaulette. With the beginning of the Russian-Japanese war, the commander with his regiment decreases to the front.

Time of Troubles

However, the alarming events that almost immediately and in parallel began in both capitals forced the command to return the Semenovtsi halfway to St. Petersburg, where after the first defeats in a seemingly fast and victorious war, the situation was complicated. Began unprecedented since the days of False Dmitry unrest. Under the slogans of freedom and equality throughout the country blood was poured, estates caught fire, pogroms and interethnic clashes began. It was not a day that people, mostly officials and state employees or just loyal subjects, did not die at the hands of rebellious armed hooligans who called themselves revolutionaries or warriors. In the 1906 year alone, 768 was killed and 820 authorities and their sympathizers were seriously injured.

In September and October, a well-organized general strike swept the country on 1905. On this occasion, the well-known publicist L. N. Tikhomirov noted: “It stopped the movement of railways, post offices, telegraphs, plunged the city into darkness, stopped the supply of food, stopped the work of factories and plants, deprived the population of the country of the opportunity to earn a living, took away Patients help doctors and pharmacies. She created for all the nation complete civil lawlessness. The person has lost the right even to work, to free movement. Everyone had to pester the general strike against their will. But the leaders of the liberation movement do not recognize that they are struggling with the nation itself. The absurdity of the activities of our “liberation” revolution is so clear that it does not require a description. ” But it was not limited to strikes alone. Real revolutionary terror unfolded.

At the call of Leon Trotsky, who was the de facto head of the St. Petersburg Council of Workers' Deputies, armed groups began to form, preparing to take power in the capital into their own hands. The day and place were appointed where Bloody Sunday should be repeated as a signal for rebellion. The position was saved by the Semenovtsy, who had taken convenient positions in advance and showed readiness to use it. weapon. This cooled the ardor of the revolutionaries, broke their plans and soon forced them to curb activity. And the name of the commander of Semenovites received great publicity, raising fear in some and causing delight in others. The first, however, was more. When in one of the Baltic barracks naval unrest began to the crew - the sailors refused to obey their officers, the instigators were preparing an armed rebellion - Ming was given the task to stop them, if possible, bloodlessly. He acted quickly and decisively: at night he surrounded the barracks, personally went inside and suddenly raised the sleeping troublemakers on alert. This decided the outcome of the case.

Especially difficult situation was in Moscow due to its special status. By 1905, the city became the center of the liberal and Zemstvo opposition. After the murder of supporters of decisive measures - the Governor-General of the Great Throne, Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich and the town governor and Chief of Police P. P. Shuvalov, the power in the city actually passed to the liberals and socialists. With their acquiescence in Moscow, several meetings of the opposition are openly held, where unlawful and even anti-government decisions are taken.

Using complete impunity, the militants began to form well-armed and equipped squads, terrorizing the population, killing law enforcement officers. This interstition ended with the fact that on December 10 of 1905, the self-proclaimed Executive Committee of Workers' Deputies decided on a general uprising, after which the city plunged into darkness. Residents of the 1.5 million metropolis have become hostages of hooligans, criminals and revolutionary fanatics. Looting of shops and shops began, killing not only policemen or soldiers, but also ordinary people who were forced to build barricades by force of arms. In total, on 13 December 1905, revolutionaries killed 80 and injured 320 people. The garrison troops and the police, without feeling the support of local authorities, were demoralized.

Life for the Tsar

It was at this moment that the Guardsmen-Semenov, led by the already legendary commander, arrived at the aid of the Muscovites on the personal order of the tsar. The regiment was divided into two groups. One under the command of Mina cleaned Presnya. The second, led by Colonel N. K. Riemann, acted along the line of the current Moscow-Kazan railroad, which was occupied by militants. December 16 began an operation to liberate the city from illegal armed groups.

Faced with decisive actions by the Semenovtsy in the area of ​​the Schmidt factory and the Prokhorov manufactory, where an open battle ensued, the insurgents soon realized that they were doomed, and began to scatter and surrender. The detachment of Colonel Riemann acted harshly, stopping looting, looting and armed resistance. Several militants detained with weapons in their hands were shot on the spot. Thus, by December 20 the situation in Moscow has stabilized. The revolution was strangled. Semenovtsy paid a high price for it, losing three comrades. In total, during the clashes and shooting from around the corner in Moscow in December 1905, 13 soldiers and the 21 policeman were killed, according to the data of the Russian Navy’s Army Department. Militants - 32. Random passers-by and onlookers - 267.

To the credit of the regimental commander, he did not bury his dead soldiers in inhospitable Moscow, but organized the delivery of bodies to the capital at his own expense, where they were buried with military honors in a regimental tomb. Less than a year, as the commander lay next to them. Georgy Alexandrovich knew that he had been sentenced by terrorists, but flatly refused to have bodyguards, considering it unworthy of a guard officer. 13 August 1906, he was killed in front of his family at the Peterhof station.

At the funeral of his faithful servant, Nicholas II was dressed in the form of a Life Guards Semenov regiment. The eloquent inscription “Victim of Duty” stood out on the wreaths with which the comrades-in-arms piled up the grave of the beloved commander.

His murderer turned out to be a village teacher, Erska Zinaida Konoplyannikova. Despite the protests of the left-wing public who did not calm down, she was sentenced to death by hanging.
Author:
Originator:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/32756
125 comments
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  1. Dart2027
    Dart2027 9 October 2016 07: 36
    +3
    Militants - 32. Random passers-by and onlookers - 267.

    Whenever someone starts firing for something better, it doesn’t matter what exactly, most of the dead are those who didn’t want to shoot at anyone, mostly from the hands of these same fighters.
  2. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 9 October 2016 08: 54
    +19
    I wonder if the author (an apologist for "crispy French rolls" and "Russia that we have lost") has read such a work by Gilyarovsky as The Punitive Train? The machinist Ukhtomsky and others are among the 32 killed militants, or are they assigned to onlookers? And the author knows the reasons for the unrest, in particular, that the peasants had to pay redemption payments to landowners for land received in 1861 until 1925, and only the events of 1905 canceled these payments. The article is a minus. Some loyal nonsense.
    1. Victor N
      Victor N 9 October 2016 10: 25
      +3
      The participation of peasants in Moscow events is not visible. And in the future, people were excited
      ringleaders and sent for death. Fearfully!
      1. Molot1979
        Molot1979 28 July 2017 13: 21
        0
        Nothing that most of the workers were from yesterday's peasants? And the workers themselves lived, contrary to myths, not at all sweet. The crunch of French rolls and Schubert waltzes is not about them at all.
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 9 October 2016 11: 10
      +3
      Quote: Aviator_
      The driver of Ukhtomsky and others

      Do you mean one of the leaders of the fighting squad of the Kazan Railway, who at the head of the squad blocked the Moscow-Golutvin line, disarming the police, cutting the telegraph and disarming military trains returning from Manchuria? If this is not an action movie, then who?
      Quote: Aviator_
      that redemption payments to landowners for land

      In Moscow? Original. No, they, of course, were payments, just don’t need to bring everything together.
  3. Aleksander
    Aleksander 9 October 2016 08: 57
    +10
    A wonderful Russian officer, the savior of Moscow from terrorist gangs, who presented his exploit for 12 years of normal life in Russia before she plunged into the nightmarish horror of the wild gloomy Middle Ages that came after the October coup of 1917.

    A street in Moscow should be named after Georgy Alexandrovich Min, and a monument has been erected on Presnya.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 9 October 2016 09: 09
      +10
      Quote: Aleksander
      A street in Moscow should be named after Georgy Alexandrovich Min, and a monument has been erected on Presnya.

      Have you ever thought about the canonization of this character?
      1. captain
        captain 9 October 2016 09: 57
        +8
        Well, my dear fellow, monuments can be erected to Trotsky, Uritsky, Sverdlov, Zemlyachka, Yurovsky, etc. Only true Leninists. Thank you comrade. Lenin, that he closed all history departments in universities, Stalin just let down, opened a new one in 1930. Otherwise, our people would have forgotten about their "dark" past. As Comrade Trotsky: "... We must turn Russia into a desert inhabited by white negroes, to whom we will give such tyranny that the most terrible despots of the East never dreamed of. The only difference is that this tyranny will not be from the right, but from the left, and not white, but red, for we will shed such streams of blood, before which all the human losses of capitalist wars will shudder and pale. "
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 9 October 2016 11: 11
          +11
          "As Comrade Trotsky said" ////

          All RuNet is filled with fake quotes from Trotsky, Bismarck, Churchill, Albright, etc. They are compiled by the bordographers on the go - they won’t check the good, but they will carry it further with delight.

          I also need to come up with something ... as Zhirinovsky said: "The 1905 revolution in Russia showed that when the government uses elite military units against its people, it is doomed."
        2. V.ic
          V.ic 9 October 2016 11: 33
          +3
          Quote: captain
          As Comrade Trotsky: "... We must turn Russia into ... wars."

          I fully agree with Comrade voufrf uh regarding exact citation. If it does not bother you, then indicate the source where the quote of Mr. Bronstein used by you is published. Yes, even confirm the link (reliable! Working!). Then it will be your honor and praise, but for now blah blah blah ...
          1. captain
            captain 9 October 2016 11: 48
            +1
            Mikhail Belevtsev reprinted from maxpark.com October 20 2013, 21: 01
            2 ratings, 1921 views
            1. V.ic
              V.ic 9 October 2016 16: 55
              +5
              Quote: captain
              Mikhail Belevtsev reprinted from maxpark.com October 20, 2013

              Looked at your link http://maxpark.com/community/5134/content/2268026
              = "Leiba Davidovich Trotsky-Bronstein, who was striving for the collapse of the world's greatest power - Russia, - said about Russia:" We must transform ... "
              As I expected: another blah-blah-blah ... Such "Mikhailov Belyov" in I-net are like fleas in a female dog. The source is not specified (Written! With the name of the work, author, year of publication!). The Internet = this is a big dump in which "everything is there, just like in Greece". It should be a shame, dear ... Vaughn, they drew a "nickname" for themselves with a title, and their consciousness is like that of a child.
            2. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 10 October 2016 07: 45
              +1
              They wrote and spoke openly yet, and not so ... you also say that Truman's interview for the "New York Times" dated 24.06.1941 is not true.
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 9 October 2016 10: 45
      +7
      The Communists will begin to write boiling water and compose such horror stories about Mina that Dracula will strangle herself with envy
      1. Bloodsucker
        Bloodsucker 9 October 2016 10: 58
        +14
        However, the nightingale, though pretty false, you are flooded here.
        At the same time, sign in their complete mediocrity, in terms of knowledge of History.
        Who demolished your beloved Nikolai in February?
        Who spread the front, remember the words of Denikin, who from February to October, engaged in fornication, while the country spread like a rotten burlap?
        WHO ANTANTO called and started the Civil?
        After all, you would go to school, but not to the Fursenko-Lebanon option, from where consumers without knowledge go.
        1. murriou
          murriou 10 October 2016 10: 46
          +3
          Also remind the baker who lost the Russian-Japanese war, for which they are now looking for the guilty anywhere, if only to stay away from the real culprits - Nikolashka and his relatives.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 11 October 2016 00: 14
            +1
            Quote: murriou
            with his relatives.


          2. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 11 October 2016 00: 18
            +1
            someone Rozhestvensky and Kuropatkin with their pest quartermasters were not his relatives, but how could a small trembling pug dressed up as a cat in a coat know this?

            By the way, the war was not lost but stopped, and this was done for political reasons.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 11 October 2016 00: 24
              +1
              Because Japan and not Russia were close to the defeat and loss of all the colonies on the Asian continent, for which the same countries + the USA that had stood up for Turkey half a century before, or had portrayed armed neutrality threatened to stand up.
              Sakhalin would also not have stayed behind it - having spilled there only 7 km wide and crosses the ice in winter, not necessarily in the narrowest place.
        2. Lieutenant Teterin
          Lieutenant Teterin 10 October 2016 18: 56
          +4
          My apologies, but the civil war began with the actions of the Bolsheviks. The October coup (yes, initially it was called that way, even Ulyanov (Lenin) used this term in the early years) caused a sharp rejection of all political forces in society. The political structure of Russia was to be decided by the Constituent Assembly, but the Bolsheviks there shone no more than a quarter of the total votes of the delegates, and therefore they went on the illegal seizure of power. It is impossible to justify mediocrity from the provisional government for their "art", but only Bolshevik agitators were working on the decomposition of the army in the summer of 1917. As for the Entente, he was the first to call her ... "Comrade Trotsky" - it was he who, in March 1918, agreed to the British proposal to guard the Murmansk railway. Even the agreement was concluded:
          "" § 1. The highest power within the Murmansk region belongs to the Murmansk Council of Deputies. § 2. The supreme command of all the armed forces of the region belongs under the supremacy of the Council of Deputies to the Murmansk Military Council of 3 persons - one appointed by the Soviet government and one each from the British and French. § 3 The British and French do not interfere in the internal administration of the region: they inquire about all decisions of the Sovdep of general importance by the Sovdep in the forms that are deemed necessary by the circumstances of the matter. § 4. The allies take care of supplying the region with the necessary supplies "( Documents of the foreign policy of the USSR. T. 1. M., 1957, p. 221) "
          1. murriou
            murriou 10 October 2016 20: 00
            +5
            Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
            the civil war began with the actions of the Bolsheviks.

            1.1. This is from a series of questions about the egg and the chicken, who used to be? With the answer that before the chicken there were still dinosaurs laughing
            1.2. And before the October Revolution, there was a chain of events, including the February Revolution (and its preface, too), the suppression by the Provisional Government of the spontaneous actions of the people when these performances became temporary no longer needed, the refusal of the temporary ones to complete the transformations necessary for the country, etc.

            1.3. The establishment of Soviet power over almost the entire territory of the former RI occurred almost bloodlessly, as did the overthrow / abdication of Nikolashka: the power of the Provisional Government, like the tsarist government, did not enjoy any mass support either from the population or among the power structures.

            1.4. Blood began to pour enormously with the onset of the White Guard riots. This is a fact with which you are unlikely to argue.

            Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
            The October Revolution (yes, it was originally called that way, even Ulyanov (Lenin) used this term in the early years) caused a sharp rejection of all political forces in society.


            2.1. About the October Revolution. The coup is an integral part of the revolution, but it does not exhaust it. Lenin was quite right in understanding the difference between these concepts and arguing about the coup as an event that had already happened, and not about the revolution, as soon as the process had just begun.

            2.2. The difference between a coup and a revolution is if someone forgot that the coup changes the leadership in power, but does not change the basis of this power.

            2.3. The February "revolution" bore the character of a palace coup. who outside the palace did not change anything and was not going to change anything.

            2.4. The October Revolution signified a tremendous transformation of society in all its spheres, including economics — the ownership of the means of production was transformed from private to public.

            2.5. Interestingly, you started talking about "ALL" political forces of society, sharply deleting from the list of "ALL" just the most massive and powerful forces that have made the third consecutive revolution.

            Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
            The political structure of Russia was to be decided by the Constituent Assembly

            3.1. And why, in fact? The development of events went too fast; the pre-revolutionary idea of ​​the Constitutional Council very soon turned out to be fatally outdated.
            3.2. To begin with, the norms established in advance of the number of electors were discriminatory in relation to the real number of the population groups they represented.
            3.3. At the same time, the really popular power structure, called the Soviets, proved to be viable in 1905, and by 1917 it had matured and was tested by real tests.

            Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
            the Bolsheviks there were no more than a quarter of the general votes of the delegates, therefore they went to the illegal seizure of power.

            4.1. Do you think you remember our story?
            4.2. But I remember that the election of the Supreme Council was temporarily shoved under the cloth until the end of time, and after that the Bolsheviks organized the leadership of the armed seizure of power.
            4.3. A revolution is never legal at all, and it never would have happened if it were conducted with an eye to the rule of law. laughing
      2. murriou
        murriou 10 October 2016 11: 58
        +6
        Why write something? It is quite enough written here: the punisher. This is what "became famous" for.
        Details can be found, of course, but they have little to change.

        And the praises written by the bakers, to believe - do not respect yourself. They have written so many praises about any tsarist and White Guard officer-general-admiral that one wonders: the Russian imperial army consisted of just angels, military geniuses and impeccably moral people!
        But just why did she in such a brilliant composition look so brilliant in all real wars from the beginning of the 20th century until the end of the civil war?
    3. Bloodsucker
      Bloodsucker 9 October 2016 11: 03
      +10
      Put Hitler-THIS is your real authority and the hero is after all Hitler is authority for you, he is the most effective killer of the so-hated conscientious, RUSSIAN among the mass of people.
      In Moscow they renamed Moskovsky Ave. to Bandera Avenue, you, like you, will soon go down in your anti-Soviet and Russophobia to rename in Moscow, streets in honor of executioners and traitors, Vlasov, Krasnov, Mannerheim, Hitler
      s and other Pilsudski-THEY, after all, vehemently hated everything Soviet and destroyed the Russians so hated by you who accepted the Red Idea, of which there was, MOST in the country ..
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Bloodsucker
          Bloodsucker 9 October 2016 14: 21
          +7
          Absolutely illiterate, impudent lie, the anti-adviser is always Russophobe.
          1. captain
            captain 9 October 2016 17: 03
            +2
            Well, let's start with what they write here about the communists, and the anti-communist and anti-Soviet are not the same thing. And the most interesting thing is that the Soviets were not invented by the communists, they then privatized them. Even the communists admit this. "The representatives of the Menshevik faction of the Duma, the" working group "of the Central Military-Industrial Committee, the legal petty-bourgeois press organs gathered in the Tavrichesky Palace, declared themselves the" Provisional Executive Committee of the Soviet "and worked out such a procedure for elections to the Soviet, in which the number of deputies from the largest factories turned out to be immeasurably smaller than from small semi-industrial enterprises and from military units. Leaders of the Mensheviks and the Social Revolutionaries who were blocking with them got the leading posts in the Executive Committee of the Petrograd Soviet (Chkheidze was elected chairman of the Soviet, and Kerensky and Menshevik Skobelev were comrades of the chairman). the situation has developed in the overwhelming majority of other Soviets. Only in a number of cities and workers' settlements of the Ivanovo-Voznesensky industrial region, Donbass, the Urals did the Bolshevik organizations manage from the very beginning to gain a decisive influence on the Soviets. "history-at-russia.ru› xx-vek ... sovetov ...
            deputatov.html.
            1. Bloodsucker
              Bloodsucker 9 October 2016 17: 12
              +5
              The anti-communist and anti-Soviet are one and the same.
              Read A. Zinoviev, not your Solzhenitsyn.
              You in your rage will soon come to the installation of monuments to Hitler, as the most zealous anti-communist and anti-Soviet.
              All these Cheidzy, Kerensky and others-LOSED the political future, later finding themselves in the camp of the patented anti-Soviet.
              Teach materiel
            2. AID.S
              AID.S 9 October 2016 22: 15
              +4
              Quote: captain
              And the most interesting thing, the Soviets were not invented by the Communists, they later privatized them.

              Is this Good or Bad? Tips? Our Communists also did not invent Marxism themselves. By the way. And call what the Communists did not come up with? Interim government? The State Duma? EP ?, PDR? Skolkovo? Voucher? Mortgage auctions?
              By the way, the first Soviets were also created in 1905, and not in the 1917 described by you, although not by the Social Democrats, but with their active participation. Doesn’t.
            3. murriou
              murriou 10 October 2016 10: 48
              +2
              Quote: captain
              Not communists came up with advice

              Congratulations, Cap, on the invention of the bicycle and the discovery of America. laughing
    4. revnagan
      revnagan 9 October 2016 11: 16
      +11
      After an army has shot at its people at least once, it is called not an army, but a punitive detachment. A punisher who tarnished the honor of his uniform and extended the agony of a rotten empire, delayed progress in Russia for 12 years, the economic and industrial growth of the state and the establishment of Russia as superpowers. You need to name the point in the public toilet, and to scatter the ashes with a shot from the cannon. In the best case, treat him like Martynov, the murderer of Lermontov, did. The foreigner, who has taken root on Russian bread, is a parasite that has eaten itself off at the expense of the people, and killing this people for the preservation of their own privileges and the privileges of their class at all costs.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Bloodsucker
          Bloodsucker 9 October 2016 14: 23
          +4
          Quote: Aleksander
          Are you talking about the army that destroyed Basayev?

          Do you and the terrorist Basayev, like Hitler, have authority?
          That's right, Russophobia does not choose allies, it is such, every enemy, assistant Russophobe.
      2. bober1982
        bober1982 9 October 2016 15: 30
        +3
        revnagan .......... 12 years delayed progress in Russia .....
        It’s not clear where such optimism comes from, the bloody mess that they committed in 12 years, like the following years, is called progress, strange.
        And as a lyrical digression - Martynov has never been the murderer of Lermontov, in vain slander people.
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 9 October 2016 17: 05
          +4
          Quote: bober1982
          Martynov has never been the murderer of Lermontov, in vain slander people.

          Those are the times !? So, according to your logic, Mikhail Yuryevich "fulfilled" himself? Can you share information of a similar nature on Dantes Gekkerenovich?
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 9 October 2016 17: 46
            +2
            Quote: V.ic
            So, according to your logic, Mikhail Yuryevich "fulfilled" himself?

            There is a version that this order is so tricky. Type shot from a ravine, and Martynov used blindly. laughing The poet was angry at the words; he made many enemies. But Pushkin is still a badass. The duel with Dantes was like the seventh (I do not remember exactly).
          2. bober1982
            bober1982 9 October 2016 18: 45
            +2
            Mikhail Yuryevich himself ran into trouble, the demon in his head was, as the Marxists would say - he would have sat better quietly, crunched a French bun, everything would have worked out well.
            1. V.ic
              V.ic 10 October 2016 06: 06
              +1
              Quote: bober1982
              Mikhail Yuryevich himself ran into

              About Martynov, you sang another song, but not in vain.
          3. AID.S
            AID.S 9 October 2016 22: 25
            +2
            Quote: V.ic
            So, according to your logic, Mikhail Yuryevich "fulfilled" himself?

            "About how many wonderful discoveries we have
            Prepares enlightenment spirit ... "
            I would like to add the spirit of enlightenment of the 90s ..... not even the exam.
            1. V.ic
              V.ic 10 October 2016 06: 08
              +1
              Quote: AID.S
              "About how many wonderful discoveries we have
              Prepares enlightenment spirit ... "
              I would like to add the spirit of enlightenment of the 90s ..... not even the exam.

              If your quote from "our everything" refers to the level of comments on the site, then I probably agree with you. hi
      3. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 10 October 2016 19: 02
        +5
        That is, according to your logic, the Soviet army and the KGB after the events in Novocherkassk in 1962 should also be called a punitive detachment? And what about the Syrian army, which is fighting the so-called "moderate opposition", in whose ranks there are also Syrian citizens? Or will you also enroll an army fighting criminals and terrorists in a "punitive squad"?
    5. Molot1979
      Molot1979 28 July 2017 13: 27
      0
      But you can say something else. The executioner, who did not hesitate to shoot at his own people and for 12 years braked the country in a state of rotten feudal monarchy, which eventually brought the country to an unnecessary war, a second revolution and collapse. And try to challenge a word evenly. Maybe because there is no street, no monument?
  4. Basil50
    Basil50 9 October 2016 09: 54
    +13
    The author only needs to * god the king .. * sing. The fact that in RUSSIA there was a famine among the peasants and the fact that the workers were often not paid but fed from the factory shop is being omitted. It is omitted by the author and HOW the treasury of the state was RIPPED, under the cover of * the royal surname *. In general, the author has everything who did not want to die of hunger and who did not agree with the king all * hooligans and bandits *. And he brought such a gloss about Mina, skipping that the killed and executed were lowered into the ice holes of the MOSCOW river. By the way, after the suppression in MOSCOW, Ming became * wealthy * even when he paid his debts.
  5. Monarchist
    Monarchist 9 October 2016 11: 10
    +4
    I have doubts about 32 militants and 267 random onlookers: all of Moscow was blocked by barricades; it seems that Prokhorovka manufactory was forced to use artillery. It was then that the leaders of the uprising rushed to the ducks.
    By the way, Ukhtomsky died when he rescued the draping Bolsheviks, and they "thanked" by banning the SR party. Thanks at least they did not forget the name of Ukhtomsky, but they forgot Konoplyannikova. Perhaps if she was Jewish, her name was immortalized?
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 9 October 2016 15: 03
      +3
      Contrary to popular belief, artillery does not always lead to mass casualties. Yes, even now in Syria - how many are being bombed, and there are still thousands and thousands of militants. It all depends on the concentration of the enemy.
  6. bober1982
    bober1982 9 October 2016 11: 21
    +4
    Claims to the author of the article, as .... to an apologist for crispy french rolls- stupid. As well as the reference to such an epoch-making work of Uncle Gilyay - "The Punitive Train", all this is read for the semi-literate tramps.
    Plus article, thanks for remembering the glorious general.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 9 October 2016 13: 41
      +6
      Well, of course, Gilyarovsky worked out the money of the State Department of the USA (as the States were called then, this is an explanation for illiterate tramps).
  7. ALEA IACTA EST
    ALEA IACTA EST 9 October 2016 12: 59
    +3
    The Russian monarchy died in May 1896. It is impossible to pump out the dead.
  8. parusnik
    parusnik 9 October 2016 14: 35
    +8
    Today, rethinking the past, we have the right to ask ourselves: who was the savior of the Fatherland or the murderer of this man?
    ... Servant to the tsar, father to the soldiers ... From a narrow, professional point of view, he acted decisively, tough, without snot .. He issued an order to his subordinates: "There should be no arrested, no mercy." Of the executed, the most famous Socialist-Revolutionary A. Ukhtomsky. During the uprising in Moscow, Ukhtomsky, at the head of the squad, completely seized the Moscow-Golutvin line, disarming the police on it, cutting off the telegraph and disarming the military echelons returning from Manchuria. He was able to withdraw the militia to Perovo on December 14, despite two ambushes and massive machine gun fire. However, together with a group of 6 vigilantes, he was arrested by the Semyonovites at the Lyubertsy station and shot without any trial on December 17, 1905. While in Lyubertsy near Moscow, Min made a speech in front of the peasants driven to the square: "If the speakers return, kill them. Kill with anything - with an ax, a club. You will not be responsible for this. If you don’t cope, notify the Semyonovites. Then we will come here again. ". Min was killed in front of his wife and daughter with four shots in the back on the platform of Novy Peterhof station mentioned in the article by the Socialist Revolutionary. It is a pity that there were no such Minov in February 1917 ... and there was General Kornilov, who awarded the murderer with the St. George's Cross for the murder of an officer .. The main driving political force during the years of the revolution of 1905-1907 was the party of socialists - revolutionaries ... and anarchists ... Social Democrats Mensheviks Bolsheviks played the role of political companions because of the split and small numbers. In 1917, the Socialist Revolutionary Party won a majority in the Constituent Assembly ... After the Bolsheviks dispersed the Assembly, the Socialist-Revolutionaries were the force that raised anti-Soviet uprisings ... under the slogan: Long live the Constituent Assembly! .. Later they chose another slogan: Soviets without communists !. ..But with the Socialist-Revolutionaries .. It is noteworthy that the Socialist-Revolutionary Omsk Directory, which fought against the Bolsheviks, called for Admiral Kolchak, Kolchak dispersed the Directory .. A little later, the Socialist-Revolutionaries, overthrew Kolchak and gave him to the Reds .. And then took up the old, raised an uprising against the Bolsheviks. .When there will be the next "crunch of French rolls" .. Remember the Socialist-Revolutionary B. Savinkov, who "killed" the tsarist dignitaries and members of the august family and raised anti-Soviet riots .. By the way, he raised anti-Soviet riots with money from abroad ...
    1. captain
      captain 9 October 2016 17: 40
      +4
      I put you a plus, but I must say that the Social Revolutionaries were not against the Soviet regime, but against the power of the Bolsheviks in the Soviets. And the second, comrade Lenin and his party associates did not earn money from mines, but organized bank robberies, the so-called exx. At the time of the USSR, there was also a present for this, an article in the Criminal Code. How did the Communist guys differ from ordinary robber robbers?
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 9 October 2016 19: 16
        +5
        And the Socialist Revolutionaries with the anarchists were ideological fighters for banknotes ..? The Bolsheviks are robber-raiders ... But the Socialist-Revolutionaries are not robbers and not raiders and are not terrorists ... They are against the Bolsheviks .. In my subjective opinion, those who came to power in February 1917 under the guise of democratic slogans .. are not much different from those came to power in 1991 and held it in 1993 ..
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 9 October 2016 19: 55
          +4
          Quote: parusnik
          In my subjective opinion, those who came to power in February 1917

          And why should they be different? The same audience.
          Quote: parusnik
          The Bolsheviks are robbers-raiders ... But the Social Revolutionaries are not robbers

          Everyone was good. When talking about the Bolsheviks, they usually mean those who were in the Second World War and rebuilt the country after, only in 1917 they were very different. It is enough to remember how much it was necessary to clean.
  9. fa2998
    fa2998 9 October 2016 14: 56
    +4
    Quote: revnagan
    After an army has shot at its people at least once, it is called not an army, but a punitive detachment. A punisher who tarnished the honor of his uniform and extended the agony of a rotten empire, delayed progress in Russia for 12 years,

    Well, yes, and then after 12 years there was prosperity and peace in the country! And the army NEVER "fired at its people."
    And starting in Kronshtat, and in the Tambov territories and everywhere to Novocherkassk. request sad hi
  10. captain
    captain 9 October 2016 17: 32
    +3
    If the Internet is a trash heap, then why are you rummaging in it? The communist guys simply took and abolished history faculties at universities, removed the study of history in schools and only in 1934 returned this subject to the school curriculum. In TSB they write about this very vaguely and modestly: "Historical education is: ...". For a real Leninist, one can only refer to the works of Lenin and Marx. One called the Russians derzhimords and suggested that territorial issues be solved at the expense of the Russians, and the second called on the Slavs to be destroyed like barbarians. And why do I, a Russian, need to treat them and their students with respect?
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 10 October 2016 14: 40
      +2
      Quote: captain
      For a true Leninist, one can only refer to the works of Lenin and Marx.

      In Western Christianity, they were forced to codify sources so that the "servants of God" did not sculpt a gag at the disputes. So it would be better for you to refer to a credible source, and not to the memoirs of Vanya Pupkin, released from a neuropsychiatric dispensary. lol
  11. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 10 October 2016 01: 34
    +9
    The argument is meaningless, because the truth is different for everyone, and only history will put an end to it.
    Our truth: In 1905, the tsarist troops were used as punishers, they crushed the popular uprising, which was objective and logical. He was led by the Bolsheviks. They were supported by our grandfathers, because ordinary people lived in hopeless need and darkness.
    This is what my parents said.
    Before the revolution, my mother, a little girl, had to wander around the villages for several years in order to somehow feed herself.
    My father, from a working-class family, when during the perestroika period they started to hang up noodles, as everyone lived well before the revolution, also said that their family, although not begging, did not go to their fill.
    Both were able to learn only after the socialist revolution, which really gave all working people equal opportunities to study, ensured the right to work, the right to rest, the right to housing, and provided a decent life and protection from the arbitrariness of bosses.
    I hope many remember from the history of the mockery of the owners before the revolution against the working people. The most striking example is the Lensky execution in 1912. People were shot only because they refused to eat horse penis.
    And here is an example of the bullying of modern owners. Many remember, as billionaire Ram Vyakhirev, when he was the head of Gazprom, publicly mockingly told the people on television about their arrears for gas: “Can't you pay for gas? Stoke dumplings! But don’t touch the gas! ” But gas is the property of the whole people.
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 10 October 2016 02: 09
      +1
      The truth is what all the revolutionaries had, and the current oligarchs and politicians have surnames. And the owner of Lena mines, too.
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 10 October 2016 02: 19
      +3
      And what then followed the Red Terror, especially the Russian population.
    3. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 10 October 2016 02: 21
      +3
      And now in Russia there are fewer Russians.
  12. AID.S
    AID.S 10 October 2016 06: 56
    +1
    V.ic,
    As for "there is a version" .. you see, archaeologists will find a video and a sniper gun somewhere, in a nearby ravine ..
  13. bober1982
    bober1982 10 October 2016 07: 43
    +1
    V.ic,
    There is no grace
    Happy you have discord
    And you are beautiful inappropriately
    And you are smart out of place
    Pushkin
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 10 October 2016 11: 46
      +2
      Quote: bober1982
      v.ic,
      There is no grace
      Happy you have discord
      And you are beautiful inappropriately
      And you are smart out of place
      Pushkin


      There is no happiness in cash
      With grace - the cat wept
      And I'm not beautiful, by the way,
      And the mind is not rich.

      But thanks for Pushkin
      I am immensely happy with him!
  14. murriou
    murriou 10 October 2016 10: 56
    +3
    Quote: bober1982
    like subsequent years - to call progress, strange.

    Yes Yes Yes! Can it be called progress the creation of the world's first really functioning system of social guarantees and social justice, the elimination of illiteracy, the creation of public health, unprecedented growth in industry and overcoming separation from industrialized powers, convincing victories in a number of local conflicts and world war, the mastery of nuclear energy and spacewalk?

    Progress for people like you is Tsarist backward Russia during the reign of Nikolashka, stomping for several decades on artisanal copying of foreign equipment, mass illiteracy and clogging, total incompetence of the upper ranks, the PMV lost in the same vein, and infant and child mortality in the same spirit comparable to the birth rate - but for 1% of the population, crunch French rolls, caviar barrels and pineapples in champagne. lol
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 10 October 2016 19: 24
      +1
      That's just this system self-destructed under the guidance of those who directed it.
      And by the way, one fact always surprised me.
      Both Germany and Japan and England were the same monarchies as the Republic of Ingushetia, but for some reason those who argue about backwardness because of the monarchical system do not bother.
      1. ilyaros
        ilyaros 11 October 2016 07: 15
        +2
        So the Russian Empire self-destroyed under the leadership of those who led it. In fact, no one spoke out in defense of the tsar and the monarchy. Where were the famous tsarist generals? Why didn't they suppress the revolution? Moreover, organized, as the Nazi-monarchists like to emphasize, "national men"? Where were the loyal people? How did a handful of "nationalists" and members of ultra-left parties manage to take power in the country? Maybe she could, because she enjoyed the support of the people and because the tsarist generals and officers either themselves were against the monarchy in a significant number (70% of the officers later moved to the Red Army), or were complete mediocrity and cowards (many happily immediately began to run away for border, the fate of people like Krasnov or Shkuro perfectly illustrates the "nobility" of this public)?
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 12 October 2016 20: 43
          0
          Quote: ilyaros
          So the Russian Empire self-destructed under the leadership of those who led it

          Destroyed. Only the head of state was not a traitor, unlike the last general secretary. Yes, and for this it was necessary to draw her into the WWII.
          Quote: ilyaros
          Maybe she could, because she enjoyed the support of the people and because the tsarist generals and officers either were themselves against the monarchy in a significant number

          And also because it promised everyone the golden mountains and universal happiness. The Bolsheviks promised everyone a paradise on earth, only it is impossible to build it.
          Quote: ilyaros
          In reality, no one came out in defense of the king and the monarchy.

          Did not speak. As in defense of the USSR. Actually, in both cases traitors worked, and the people were seduced by beautiful slogans.
  15. murriou
    murriou 10 October 2016 10: 59
    +1
    Quote: bober1982
    V.ic,
    There is no grace
    Happy you have discord
    And you are beautiful inappropriately
    And you are smart out of place
    Pushkin


    Why are you hiding behind quotes,
    Is your mind dumb?
    The bakers today are darkness,
    But everywhere their nonsense is inappropriate.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 10 October 2016 11: 17
      +1
      The glory of A.S. Pushkin haunts you? Your poetic work is somewhat reminiscent of the verses of the famous proletarian poet-crooks Demyan Poor (nickname), he would be envious.
      1. murriou
        murriou 10 October 2016 11: 49
        +1
        What claims can you bring to Demian Poor yourself? By versification, essno - it is clear that the meaning of his poems is rooting for you, like devils from incense. And this proves his complete poetic viability - he achieved exactly this effect laughing

        Well, the traditional question - can you yourself be better? Try lol
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 10 October 2016 12: 52
          +1
          About the evil spirits and the incense that was mentioned - it sounds funny, considering that the proletarian poet who was held was a noble, professional atheist. And all the representatives of the evil spirits climbed lovingly, respected him. But this is all the lyrics. whether to shrug at William our Shakespeare.
          1. murriou
            murriou 10 October 2016 16: 12
            +1
            I tried to make myself clear to you, the baker. laughing
            But you have a rare talent for diligently "not noticing" an unpleasant essence for you, and at the same time trying to cling to every little thing.
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 11 October 2016 07: 43
              0
              the bottom line is that autumn has worsened and it got out of your rhyme?
      2. V.ic
        V.ic 10 October 2016 14: 33
        +1
        Quote: bober1982
        the famous proletarian crook poet Demian Poor

        Dear, if you write that the poet-slicker is "famous", then at least Yefim Pridvorov was mentioned.
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 10 October 2016 17: 49
          +1
          The comrades are nicknamed, like the four-legged.
          1. murriou
            murriou 10 October 2016 19: 33
            +3
            Quote: bober1982
            The comrades are nicknamed, like the four-legged.

            Oh, who would say! (WITH) laughing
            All beavers-1982 would be better about keeping nicknames and four-legged lol fellow laughing
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 10 October 2016 19: 38
              0
              You would have to work on the stage, entertainer - you would have been successful with the public, but you had hit in poetic writing.
  16. V.ic
    V.ic 10 October 2016 11: 31
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    They wrote and spoke openly yet, and not so ... you also say that Truman's interview for the "New York Times" dated 24.06.1941 is not true.

    Indicate the connection between Truman's quotes (incidentally having a source) and comrade Bronstein-Trotsky?
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 10 October 2016 23: 54
      0
      Probably extremely anti-Russian and coordinated activity of both. There is a source on the second or third comrade as well as on Kaganovich's "hem", and how many such quotes were left behind by Comrade. Form.
      1. murriou
        murriou 11 October 2016 01: 29
        0
        in more detail and more specifically, without vague hints and violent fantasies, can you formulate? lol
        1. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 11 October 2016 07: 29
          0
          where did you see them? your veterinarian will formulate more details for you, see below
        2. Simpsonian
          Simpsonian 11 October 2016 07: 41
          0
          call that in a long comment on your two without quotes - crawl over them and quote your dog nonsense, below dignity
          1. murriou
            murriou 11 October 2016 10: 14
            +2
            Yes, yes, I appreciated a fair amount of your comments about how you are not interested in reading my messages and answering them laughing
            1. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 11 October 2016 17: 46
              0
              I’m not interested in kakal people here in the subcortex, so keep it back ...
  17. Bloodsucker
    Bloodsucker 10 October 2016 19: 44
    +1
    bober1982,
    Strange .. but you are more like something ... and not like an entertainer, he still understands what he is saying .. you have a slightly different role ...
    1. murriou
      murriou 10 October 2016 20: 02
      +1
      Well, he doesn’t like it. laughing
  18. murriou
    murriou 10 October 2016 20: 02
    +1
    bober1982, so somehow you decide for yourself, and not for me, what should I do, huh? laughing

    If I can express my views at the same time reasonably, cheerfully and intelligibly - do you have something against it? lol
  19. murriou
    murriou 10 October 2016 20: 05
    +2
    Quote: Dart2027
    And Germany and Japan and England were the same monarchies as RI

    Not at all the same.

    Discussions about backwardness are associated not with the formal declaration of a monarchist or other system, England, and still, as it were, a monarchy - but with the real situation in the economy, primarily in industrial development. This is where the whole difference appears.
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 10 October 2016 20: 28
      0
      Quote: murriou
      assumptions about backwardness are not connected with the formal declaration of a monarchist or other system

      Then why do they constantly appeal to this fact? Like the monarchy was backward, it was necessary to arrange a coup and ... And as a result, a sea of ​​corpses and devastation.
      And for some reason the USSR was actively developing only under the "red monarch", and as soon as he died, it is possible to be poisoned, and that's it, a gradual collapse begins.
  20. murriou
    murriou 10 October 2016 20: 15
    +1
    bober1982, it does not interfere. Verified lol
  21. murriou
    murriou 10 October 2016 20: 43
    +1
    Quote: Dart2027
    Then why do they constantly appeal to this fact?

    Ask those who appeal lol
    I use a slightly different argument, please note.
  22. murriou
    murriou 11 October 2016 00: 38
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Rozhestvensky and Kuropatkin with their pest quartermakers were not his relatives

    They were subordinates of the tsar and his relatives - for example, the Grand Dukes, who openly supported mistresses with state money, supposedly going to strengthen the army and navy. One of the Grand Dukes supervised the fleet and the ballerina Balletta, the other supervised the artillery and the ballerina Kshesinskaya, and the ballerinas were more important than the "boring" affairs of protecting the interests of the state. Other royal relatives and their proteges, like Rasputin, also had their own "modest" interests.

    And certainly no quartermaster stole so much as to compare with the royal relatives.

    And you also need to remind the illiterate bakers that in the autocratic country the power of the monarch is great - but the responsibility for everything that happens in the country lies with him.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    but how would a small, trembling pug dressed up as a cat in a coat know this?

    Personal assaults are a sign of the complete absence of more convincing arguments. Thank you for such a frank confession. laughing

    Quote: Simpsonian
    By the way, the war was not lost but stopped, and this was done for political reasons.
    Yes Yes Yes! A war in which for almost a year and a half all the battles of any significance were defeated by the Russians, they lost most of their key positions - with the exception of a few minor episodes that roll for a draw - can in no way be considered a Russian victory from the point of view of the stubborn the baker. laughing
  23. murriou
    murriou 11 October 2016 00: 59
    +1
    Simpsonianbut it’s nothing so that you pretend to be a Russian mega-patriot, speaking at the same time under the German flag and the pseudonym of American origin? laughing

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Because Japan was close to the defeat and loss of all colonies on the Asian continent

    Remind, please, which colonies on the Asian continent did Japan have before the REV? laughing

    And from which side was it close to defeat, having managed to smash the Russian fleet into the theater of operations even twice, both times almost completely to zero, and having driven the Russian army to sit in fear in fortified positions, after a continuous series of Japanese attacks and victories? lol

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Russia, for which the same countries + USA threatened to intervene, which stood up half a century before for Turkey

    Why would they be afraid to intercede for Russia? laughing

    And it’s okay that in 1902, after Russia’s boorish kickback of all Japanese attempts to resolve disputes by diplomatic means, an agreement was concluded between Japan and England, which you either did not know for a while, or very diligently "forgot"?

    According to this agreement, the war between Japan and Russia is one on one - their own business, but attempts by a third country to intervene on the side of Russia will lead to the entry into the war of England on the side of Japan. Nobody wanted this, including Russia - because even against Japan, the Republic of Ingushetia turned out to have a thin gut, and there is nothing to compare with the leading European powers.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Sakhalin would also not have stayed behind it - having spilled there only 7 km wide and crosses the ice in winter, not necessarily in the narrowest place.

    We still need to live before winter. And with the offensive - even on flat terrain, without any straits and ice - the Russian army had difficult problems throughout the whole REV.
  24. Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 11 October 2016 01: 30
    +1
    Quote: murriou
    ...bark-bark-bark...


    "Relatives" you have, a pug. The Russian Tsar has relatives. By the way, he is canonized. Do you want to warm up the bunks after "Nastya-lip"?

    Those relatives that in the photograph Rozhestvensky and Kuropatkin were definitely not subordinate, like the Tsar himself.
    How was it with the ballerinas of these two, and you personally (unless of course there is some kind of personality)?

    your quartermasters did not so much steal as spoiled military property for the purpose of sabotage (quite a common thing), and it is quite possible that some of them were your relatives, otherwise why such "zeal", or for example Voikov ...

    This is probably why the Japanese losses in manpower at zero human reserves, so inferior to Russian. lol

    You pretend to be a cat, only here is another class screech, and from under the collar a dog collar peeps.

    Why "before"?

    What fear and pyrrhic victories?

    For Japan. Otherwise, this anti-Russian vassal would be lost.
    Boorish was the behavior of Japan all the way.
    You do not compare the Russian gut with your own, if only the smell.

    Rolls your Blank crunched in Switzerland.

    It was already one winter, until the next it is not a fact that Japan would have survived, and a large army finally reached from central Russia, despite the shoes rotten by your quartermasters, as well as soaked, according to the "British" advice in French Madagascar, explosives in naval shells to this.

    But Japan ran out of steam, and the first revolution with discrediting the Russian government did not work, so for the second it was necessary to arrange a larger war, albeit closer ...
    In the meantime, they arranged the next "Portsmouth Treaty", it is the "Vienna Congress", or "Save Aleppo" with a claim to ...
    1. murriou
      murriou 11 October 2016 01: 39
      +1
      * yawning * This bouquet of your exuberant fantasies has nothing to do with real history, and from other sciences - except psychiatry. This is not my specialty; please visit your doctor, he will appreciate it.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 11 October 2016 01: 46
        +1
        And you too are exhausted ...
        certainly not a specialty, go to the vet already ...
      2. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 11 October 2016 01: 58
        +2
        Only the completely stubborn Russophobe can put the military-economic power of Tsarist Russia below Japanese imria. Only it, with extended communications, even with sabotage, decides in the long run.
        Your japons would be sitting behind the ice-free straits in Japan proper for another 15 years, until the Russian aviation invented, which any large ship in the coastal zone takes. Then they would be piled on there too, which is why in 1945 when they were already there, they surrendered to the Americans in bustle, if only the Russians would not occupy them and they could continue to drag along Tsushima, during which only every 10th Russian shell would explode. lol
  25. murriou
    murriou 11 October 2016 10: 13
    +2
    Simpsonian, and what is your habit of judging all by yourself laughing
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 11 October 2016 17: 47
      0
      don’t even dream, you’re not worth it ...
  26. murriou
    murriou 12 October 2016 09: 11
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Only the completely stubborn Russophobe can put the military-economic power of Tsarist Russia below Japanese imria.

    For the baker, lies are called patriotism, and the debunking of their lies is called Russophobia laughing

    The reality was quite clearly shown in 1904-1905: even with approximately equal numbers in most battles, or the numerical advantage of the Russian side, the Russian army and the Russian fleet suffered defeat after defeat, some of these defeats were catastrophic, and brought Russia only huge losses .
    In WWI, the picture was generally similar: the constant numerical superiority of the Russian army over the Germans - and at the same time, defeats were much more often than victories, and losses were much higher than those of the enemy. Only against the very backward Turkey was the Russian Empire more or less successful, and even not enough. And it's all about the military power of tsarist Russia.

    It was also sad with the economy: the structure of RI import-export is typical of a backward agrarian and raw-material country, even far from the most advanced Italy supplied ready-made sets of cars for screwdriver assembly to Russia, and not vice versa.
    The Japanese mastered the production of turbine destroyers and dreadnoughts before us. After WWI, Japan took the 3rd place in the world in shipbuilding, when Germany left this place - and RI did not sell a single warship for export in the late 19th - early 20th centuries. Even sadder was the picture of "Russian" aviation, which was completely dependent on foreign engines and almost entirely consisted of foreign-made aircraft, in the overwhelming majority of foreign-made aircraft. Against these facts, all the crisp-baked lies about the economic greatness of tsarist Russia are no more spitting.
  27. Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 13 October 2016 09: 06
    0
    Quote: murriou

    0
    murriou Yesterday, 09:11
    Quote: Simpsonian
    To put the military-economic power of Tsarist Russia below Japanese imria only completely stubborn Russophobe.

    For the baker, lies are called patriotism, and the debunking of their lies is called Russophobia laughing


    Quote: Simpsonian
    only completely stubborn Russophobe.


    Your "ilyich" crunched like rolls across Europe.

    The reality was that the naval quartermasters ruined with gunpowder and fuses, the land left the army without shoes. When parts from European Russia approached Manchuria across a Eurasia across a remote theater of operations, the small Japanese Empire suffered more casualties than Great Russia, was exhausted so much that it would not be difficult for the Russians to throw it out of the Asian continent. Therefore, the powers that raised this anti-Russian pug appeared larger for her with threats. And in Russia, you staged a revolution, for the sake of which this war was actually started, as well as then the WWII. Yes "Revolutionary situation" and all that

    Not lazy armed Japan against Russia and China. That's who they depended on it so much.

    Russia did not completely depend on foreign engines, and for a long time nothing like the Ilya Muromets aircraft existed in other countries. The Germans really had airships (of which they lost a lot), but they could not compete with these aircraft (only one was lost, due to two jammed import machine guns at once).
    1. murriou
      murriou 13 October 2016 12: 11
      +1
      Quote: Simpsonian
      The reality was that the naval quartermasters ruined with gunpowder and fuses, the land left the army without shoes.

      Oh, the total conspiracy of the quartermaster as the cause of all the defeats of the Republic of Ingushetia in the REV and WWI! Cool fantastic thriller! laughing

      And where did these quartermasters come from, why did their conspiracy last for about 1,5 years in the RJV and 2,5 years in the WWII, why did they remain in their places and did not suffer any punishment, why no action was taken on this case, and other obvious for = smart = human questions - with them in your mythology how? lol

      And how about you next to this brilliant laughing ahem, does the version manage to spell the word "reality"? feel

      Quote: Simpsonian
      the small Japanese Empire suffered greater casualties than Great Russia

      This is so in your mythology, maybe. There you have no nonsense laughing

      In real history, in terms of those killed on land, Japan in the RYA suffered about one and a half times less losses than Russia. Especially if we recall such a category as "missing", that is, in translation into Russian human, unaccounted for killed - or do you know where else could have gone missing in Manchuria tens of thousands of Russian soldiers? Not included in the number of living and prisoners?

      For comparison, in the Japanese army for the entire number of missing persons there were a little more than 100 people.
      In Russia there are only 7,8 thousand of such people near Mukden, and in almost every battle 2-3% of the personnel.
      There were more than 80 thousand prisoners on the Russian side, a little more than 2 thousand on the Japanese side, the difference was about 40 times. Given the prisoners, the irreversible losses of the Russian army are double that of the Japanese.

      At the same time, the Japanese were attacking and winning the entire REV, i.e. should have suffered losses many times more.
      In fact, it is the other way round: in battles with symmetrical behavior (oncoming battle, alternate offensive), Russian losses in all cases are 2-3 times greater than Japanese losses.
      In the battles, where the Japanese advanced on not too well-equipped Russian positions, the losses were approximately equal.

      At sea, it’s not better: in Tsushima, out of 16+ thousand personnel of the Russian squadron, 7,5 thousand died (with the official number of 5 thousand, mentioned before the detailed calculation), a little more than 6 thousand prisoners, 1,8 thousand internees, 870 people broke through, most of the squadron’s ships were sunk or captured.
      On the Japanese side, the losses are ridiculously small: 3 destroyers, 117 people, including those who died from wounds after the battle.
      In the remaining battles of the REV at sea, about 1,5 thousand Russians, about 1 thousand Japanese were killed.
      And here, too, the quartermasters are to blame, yeah laughing

      Quote: Simpsonian
      throwing her from the Asian continent to the Russians would not have been a big deal.

      Sure sure. And why, then, after the battle of Mukden, the Russian army, the number is not much inferior to the Japanese (before the battle - in which the Japanese were advancing - even superior!), Draped 175 km to the next fortified position?

      Why did after Mukden 500 thousand Russians sit in these fortified positions, continuing to strengthen them even more, and did not dare to take any offensive actions for more than six months, until the end of the war?

      Why did 300 thousand Japanese at this time regret that they could not continue the offensive on land, but calmly captured Sakhalin?
      = * =
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 13 October 2016 19: 10
        0
        It was only by the results of the world that the Japanese people were so shocked that even internal unrest began.
        Quote: murriou
        Why after Mukden

        And why, if fresh forces were to come from the European part.
        Quote: murriou
        but calmly captured Sakhalin

        And he wasn’t particularly defended.
        In general, there is a Japanese book https://www.livelib.ru/book/1000031978
        1. murriou
          murriou 14 October 2016 00: 02
          +1
          Quote: Dart2027
          the Japanese people were so shocked that even internal unrest began.

          Yes, the Japanese people wanted more concessions from the losing country and were ready to fight on. Contrary to the tales of bakeries about Japan, exhausted, powerless and wanting only peace at all costs laughing

          Quote: Dart2027
          And why, if fresh forces were to come from the European part

          Why take away the strategic initiative from the enemy? Why conquer stupidly lost territories? Does it really need an explanation? lol

          I emphasize that after Mukden the "victorious" Russian army was sitting out in fortified positions for more than six months!

          During this time, new forces came up. There were 500 thousand - one and a half times more than the Japanese.
          And - they were afraid to stick their nose out. Denikin, in his memoirs, believes that there would be enough strength for a successful offensive - but he admits that many of his colleagues thought otherwise.

          The Japanese, with EQUAL forces, even with a small numerical superiority of the Russian side, still advanced and won, although according to the then ideas, a 3-4-fold superiority of forces was needed for this. But the real combat readiness of the Japanese army was, as we see, as much higher than the Russian.
          After Mukden, they assumed against themselves a million Russian elite troops. And they were very sorry that with such a balance of forces it was impossible to continue the offensive laughing - but they were ready to defend themselves. Against a million. And if there really was a million, against 300 thousand Japanese, it is not at all a fact that with such a different military spirit of the parties, revenge could have turned out, and not yet another useless shedding of Russian blood.

          Quote: Dart2027
          And he wasn’t particularly defended.

          Well, a number of people gathered and tried to throw for slaughter. Lost about 200 dead and 3,7 thousand prisoners. A trifle, yes.

          Do you really think that the inability to defend your land is the merit of the tsarist government? lol

          Quote: Dart2027
          there is a Japanese book https://www.livelib.ru/book/1000031978

          Yeah, well, of course, Okamoto’s book. Which the bakers transmit to each other, like a holy tradition, in the form of two and a half quotes taken out of context, and nothing more. laughing

          I read it in its entirety bully
    2. murriou
      murriou 13 October 2016 13: 04
      +2
      Quote: Simpsonian
      That's who they depended on it so much.

      Yes, Japan at the beginning of the 20th century. depended heavily on imports. But Russia's dependence on imports did not become less due to Japanese similar dependence. lol

      At the same time, Japan got rid of this dependence rather quickly: starting from 1902. She made all her destroyers and destroyers, and until 1910 RI ordered a significant part of such ships abroad. In 1909. they made their own turbine destroyers, 4 years ahead of RI. In 1910 -1911. the Japanese made their own LC "Kawati" on their own, ahead of RI by several. years.


      Quote: Simpsonian
      Russia did not fully depend on foreign engines

      Yes, only ~ 90% laughing

      Quote: Simpsonian
      in other countries for a long time there was nothing like the Ilya Muromets aircraft.

      How long is it? By the middle of WWI, all the records of the “Muromites” had already been broken. Germans in 1918 we have already mastered 2000kg of bomb load, four times against 500kg for IM.

      And now a little arithmetic for elementary school.
      In total, it was released, according to various sources, in 1914-1919. from 76 to 85 copies of "IM".
      For comparison, in developed countries, combat aircraft in WWI were produced in hundreds or thousands annually (!), While flying on their own engines, developed and made in the same countries.

      For each "IM" you need 4 engines at once, and they should be replaced at least once a year with an average flight load. If you are not too lazy to calculate production and retirement, the need for engines for IM during the WWI was more than 500 pcs.
      In the RI of engines for MI (and then, according to samples of foreign construction), only 45 copies were made, of which about a dozen were already under the Bolsheviks.

      Quote: Simpsonian
      only one was lost due to two jammed importer machine guns at once

      You, as always, are trying to lie, but ineptly. During WWI, 30 aircraft of the Ilya Muromets series were lost.
      Of these, one was shot down in aerial combat, yes. Another one in the aerial battle was damaged so much that after an emergency landing it could no longer be repaired. Another shot down by anti-aircraft fire, and one anti-aircraft fire is damaged until it is impossible to recover. Total combat loss of 4 aircraft.

      And besides - 26 non-combat, including with increased engine wear, which was sorely lacking.

      And at the same time, I ask you to note that you recognized that imported (overwhelmingly) were not only IM engines, but also machine guns. RI did not know how to make light machine guns at all (except to count Fedorov's assault rifles, made at the end of the WWII and in scanty amounts), received easel slightly more than 50% (28 thousand against 26 thousand of its own Russian production) from foreign supplies.

      More questions? laughing
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 14 October 2016 01: 10
        0
        Because then when the ice began, the Russian army came to the Tatar Strait along the Amur River and the winter roads, would cross this strait and make it a seppuk on Sakhalin.

        Briefly already answered you dart2027

        Maybe still 60%? The WWII was not a war of engines in general; it was WWII.
        In PMV, horse-drawn artillery, locomotive railroads, and chemical weapons of mass destruction on the battlefield, the defenses against which were made by the Russian Empire, and not someone else, decided.

        Old songs are still drunk "about illiteracy" ...
        All your Trotskyist-Bolshevik propaganda is built on lies and Goebbels you were "comrade" until 1937.

        In 1939, Japan depended a little less on imports and aid than in 1905. It was just as pumped up against Soviet Russia by the same countries.
        And in 1945, when it separately surrendered, the United States was occupied with caution in violation of the Yalta and Potsdam agreements on its division.

        There can be no questions for you except rhetorical, go further lick with a cartoon Hollywood dog, an autumn poetic cat-poet.

        Some of the records of the pre-war Muromites were surpassed only after 3-4 years, when Russia had already left the war.
        Hundreds and thousands of them produced single shelves. Only closer to the end of WWI something more serious, when the same Sikorsky, the creator of the same "Ily Muromets", who was forced there to work in his specialty in a barn for food, fled to the same France from the Red Terror.

        As always, you are trying to lie, and you carved yourself with this arithmetic with 30-26 "IM".
        Googled how many German airship fighters were shot down by fire, in which all semi-imported machine guns did not jam immediately.

        Tsarist Russia had its own internal combustion engines, while Soviet Russia began to appear only after Stalin transferred the Trotskyite pests.

        Russia knew how to do everything, and its machine guns refused less often.

        The bottleneck until the middle of the WWII in the Russians was large-caliber artillery (which was a lesser problem than WMD), just like "for some reason" there was no armored personnel carrier for the whole WWII (when WMD was not used, but because of this, the losses were even higher than from WMD in the WWII).
        More precisely, your Masonic efforts are all for "the same"...
        1. murriou
          murriou 14 October 2016 01: 41
          +1
          Quote: Simpsonian
          when the ice began, the Russian army came to the Tatar Strait along the Amur River and winter roads, would cross this strait and make it a seppuk on Sakhalin.

          0. Sepukku can be done only by oneself. That’s what the Russian army would do when trying to follow your * highly intelligent * advice. laughing

          1. This is your enchanting *fiction* you are writing for the umpteenth time and haven’t tried to reinforce it for all these many times.

          Despite the fact that:
          2. The passage of the strait on ice is possible only in winter, and not with the beginning of the calendar winter, but only after severe and prolonged frosts. Until this time, to continue the war, without being able for it, is a separate fun.

          3. normal roads for moving this "Russian army" laughing to the Tatar Strait, and even more so for its supply through the strait, Russia was not there.
          And Japan had hegemony at sea - i.e. a great opportunity to bring your forces, including numerous artillery, by sea to Sakhalin, and to supply these forces, including ammunition as soon as possible. Cheg the Russian side does not.

          Thus, in the alleged battle for Sakhalin, Japan would initially have a huge advantage, and somehow would not miss the opportunities associated with it.
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 October 2016 02: 44
            0
            you understood perfectly, clown ... You can greatly help in this, but you can also do it for someone.
            Crossing the strait is possible on ice, you once again forgot to look at the border of winter ice in the Far East
            the Japanese could not have stayed on Sakhalin and in Manchuria in 1905-6 if it had not been for threats to intervene from other countries, as they had previously done only for the 19th century at least twice during the wars of Russia with the Turks
            in 1855 intervened
            in 1978 they threatened, and the fruits of the Russian victory were received mainly by Austria-Hungary

            In 1904, the war with Japan began suddenly for Tsarist Russia, in August 1945, Soviet Russia started it herself, previously planned to transfer troops to the Far East, and no one could seriously threaten it in other military theater, as it was in 1905.

            In 1905, the troops approached the Far East (so far) in exactly the same way and the Trans-Siberian Railway was built under the Tsar.
            of course, you also did not know what a winter road is and forgot.

            The only progress compared to 1905 was the emergence of aviation, because of which the Japanese could no longer sit in Japan even in the ice-free straits in 1945, and therefore darted back under the Masonic United States.

            The war of 1905 could not continue exhausted Japan, and not Great Russia, even despite the revolution arranged by you in it.
        2. murriou
          murriou 14 October 2016 01: 59
          +1
          Quote: Simpsonian
          Maybe still 60%?

          Maybe you do not know how to count? lol
          I have already given specific numbers for specific motors for THEM. There are even more than 90% of imports. It was no better with the Newports and Sopwiches. laughing

          But even these less than 10%, which were produced in Russia, were produced according to foreign drawings and samples, and with the use of foreign spare parts: the Russian "advanced" industry could not provide even the bearings of the required quality for the internal combustion engine.

          Quote: Simpsonian
          The WWII was not a war of engines in general; it was WWII.

          However, the role of aviation in WWI was already significant.
          And we are already seeing the situation with aviation.

          Quote: Simpsonian
          Old songs are still drunk "about illiteracy" ...

          Old songs do not become less truthful from their antiquity, and lying songs and new ones do not cost more than spitting.

          Literacy in the Republic of Ingushetia in 1897 was 21% - despite the fact that people who were literate at least partially mastered the program of the first grade of the central vocational school were considered literate.
          At the same time, in the Republic of Ingushetia, from children who entered the 1st grade, slightly more than 3% in the cities and less than 10% in the villages reached the 10rd grade.

          In 1913. there were 78% of such "literate" recruits, everyone knows this laughing
          At the same time, they "do not know", no matter how much you explain, that these pre-war recruits are the most active and literate part of the peasant population. More than 90% of peasant women at the same time were ABSOLUTELY illiterate. Like over 70% of older people, over 50% are adults. Like the other 22% of the 1913 recruits.

          In 1914-1915, when the recruits began to row not volunteers, but everyone in a row, the number of even such "literate" lol immediately fell by half.
          And in developed countries, including Japan, the literacy rate of ordinary recruits in wartime was above 90%.

          That's all about "literacy" in tsarist Russia and in the Russian army. crying
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 October 2016 02: 36
            0
            it cannot be, but for sure, you again, as above, lied to the exact opposite, nothing else remains for you ...

            The role of aviation until the 1930s and the Douai doctrine was mainly intelligence

            Your Trotskyist zoo-starry does not become less truthful ... Almost the entire Russian population was literate because those who did not go to gymnasium, went to vocational schools and parish schools, because you fought against religion and your Russians who survived the revolution and the Red Terror " the international "(which later the half-educated seminarian Stalin shot the whole thing) had to enslave and socialize even their wives, to lower it, you also" pulled up the hem "(to the ambassadors during the demolition of one Temple), invented this" illiteracy "suuba that did not exist ... All (who are not backward in development) graduated from the Central School of Education, like all other educational institutions. Books were taught to read at home even before the children went to the Central School. And women and older children taught this at home.

            Your ilyich rolls crunched in Europe, which was still dead then (for someone’s shisha), It’s a pity that the Tsar did not shoot the entire degenerative Russophobic Ulyanov family, but hanged only one of his brothers (all for the same attempt to kill not only the Tsar but also his Family) . Now this is a different science.

            Japan was an undeveloped and illiterate country compared even to China, in which it was the norm to eat the enemy’s liver after a duel and take the furo with a boy, it was simply pumped up against Russia and China with weapons.
            In Japan there are not even deposits of iron, and they had nothing to buy to build at least one ship, they didn’t even have metal for iron armor, rare nuggets went only to Japanese swords.
            These civilized 100 years were named by savages who, even as the Chinese, did not know how to copy, so after the Second World War, under Khrushchev, they began to feed "all the same" Soviet intellectual property, as always against the Russians and at Russian / Soviet expense. And at the same time, and leave something to yourself in America.
            1. murriou
              murriou 14 October 2016 03: 53
              +1
              Quote: Simpsonian
              The role of aviation until the 1930s and the Douai doctrine was mainly intelligence

              You admitted that for you personally, an ignoramus, the existence of bomber aviation in all armies of developed states in the WWI and its accomplishment is classified.

              You do not even know about the German bombardment of London and the English answer.
              But this is your problem laughing

              Quote: Simpsonian
              you again, as above, lied exactly the opposite

              I cited specific data, facts, names, aircraft models, their performance characteristics.
              What did you bring for objection, besides your rudeness and stupidity? laughing

              Quote: Simpsonian
              Almost the entire Russian population was literate

              I gave specific figures, you are nonsense.

              Quote: Simpsonian
              Your ilyich rolls crunched in Europe, which was still dead then (for someone’s shisha), It’s a pity that the Tsar did not shoot the entire degenerative Russophobic Ulyanov family, but hanged only one of his brothers (all for the same attempted murder, not only of the Tsar but also of his Family) .

              A brilliant example of your "level" - you are not capable of a reasonable conversation, you can only carry such nonsense.

              Quote: Simpsonian
              Japan was an undeveloped and illiterate country compared to even China

              About the Meiji revolution and subsequent reforms, incl. reform of education, you also did not hear, on your deep ignorance.
              And this is also your personal problem. laughing

              And the "underdevelopment" of Japan and the "development" of Russia, the war between them showed quite clearly. feel
            2. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 15 October 2016 04: 46
              0
              How did they bomb London, how hard, and in what year? On "Ilyakh Muromets" which analogues they did not have until 1917?
              German airships were quickly retrained as naval scouts for the needs of the fleet.

              you called yourself again as Trotsky, and tried to shift from a sore head to a healthy one ...

              At the expense of "family showdowns" it was, like everything, in essence - it was not worth giving this Mongoloid degenerate a "second approach".
              Only this is done (but alas, not among the Orthodox), and only such a language do you understand.

              No revolution can compensate for the lack of Japanese or Chinese brains on which education and copying does not even depend on the Internet.
              Yours. "development" and you show.
          2. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 October 2016 03: 04
            0
            And how do you "see the situation with aviation", distorting everything and not noticing the lag of all other countries in WWI from Russia for years in strategic bombers / reconnaissance
            and on what "conditions" their creator then worked in emigration, raising their "foreign" level, this is also seen by everyone.
            1. murriou
              murriou 14 October 2016 08: 53
              +1
              Quote: Simpsonian
              how do you "see the situation with aviation"

              So, as concrete figures and facts say, more than once cited by me and * some ignoramuses * inaccessible even after repeated repetition laughing

              Quote: Simpsonian
              not noticing the lag of all other countries in WWI from Russia by years in strategic bombers / scouts

              Have you still not learned to read in Russian?
              Including read something that doesn't fit your fantasies? Sorry! crying laughing
              It’s hard to notice something that never exists and never
              It was. laughing

              1. Caproni lagged behind Sikorsky with the creation of a multi-engine heavy bomber not "for years", but for several months. His car was created even before WWI, and there was no question of any lag during WWI.

              2. Tsarist Russia did not have its own aircraft engines, so there were never any lags in other = countries = from Russia in aviation. On the contrary - it was.

              Sikorsky built "Russian" aircraft on foreign engines, Caproni and other aircraft designers in developed countries used their own.

              3. After 1915, IM was already noticeably behind analogs in developed countries, and not vice versa.
              In terms of carrying capacity, they overtook him and surpassed him in 1915, in speed and altitude, he already from the spring of 1914. lagged far behind.
              After 1916, even medium-sized bombers of Germany and England overtook him in all respects at least, comparable analogues appeared in France and Austria-Hungary.
              Behind Russia in aviation on the PMV theater, except Turkey laughing

              4. You do not even know the basic terminology and basic concepts in those areas where you constantly climb to teach more knowledgeable people - and only constantly make yourself a laughing stock. laughing

              Strategic bombers appeared in the world only at the end of WWII.
              Their signs are the intercontinental flight range and the armament power sufficient to destroy targets of strategic importance.
              They had neither one nor the other.

              5. As a scout, the MI had no significant advantages over lighter aircraft, but it had such disadvantages as very low speed,. very high cost of production and correspondingly small numbers.

              Likbez for the ignoramus spent Captain Evidence laughing
            2. Simpsonian
              Simpsonian 15 October 2016 04: 43
              0
              Kapetan the Spectator, You dabbled in specific numbers ridiculously increasing the losses of the Muromites from 1-2 to 30. lol

              The Italians lagged a year and a half. The rest are years behind.
              She had her own aviation / automobile ICE; they were produced, for example, by Sormovo and Russo-Balt.

              Sikorsky also built on Russian engines. Foreigners could not build such aircraft on their engines.
              You obviously immediately forgot about the gas mask ...

              In most IMs, they surpassed them until the end of 1917, they were significantly surpassed only by Handley Page, who did not have time for the war at all, even by the end of 1918.

              The first strategic bombers were precisely "Ilya Muromets" by Sikorsky, no matter how much the red-bellied zotrotskyists wanted it.
              Intercontinental serial bombers appeared much later than the Second World War.
              A strategic bomber is such a bomber that solves strategic tasks that are contemporary to him, and the war was fought on the same continent.

              As a scout "IM" had a much larger radius, reliability and security

              After the Trotskyite pogrom almost until the end of the Great Patriotic War, the Soviet Union scrambled over the engines, because during it all the specialists in them who managed to stay alive left (therefore, they remained),
        3. murriou
          murriou 14 October 2016 02: 07
          +1
          Quote: Simpsonian
          All your Trotskyist-Bolshevik propaganda is built on lies

          So what's the problem? Expose my lies, as I expose yours! laughing laughing laughing

          But I can not only name my data at any moment as a memory, but also justify it.
          And you can’t express your fantasies with concrete figures or justify anything except your intimate personal Opinion - which, even though you repeat it a thousand times, the truth will not become a penny. lol

          Quote: Simpsonian
          It was likewise pumped up against Soviet Russia by the same countries.

          Yes, yes, yes, Japan was pumped into WWII with weapons by England and the USA, with which she fought! They themselves understood what they had given up? laughing

          It’s nothing that after the Japanese invasion of China in 1937, the USA and England began to openly support China, and not Japan - only Germany and Italy remained its ally, which was not enough to supply the Japanese lol complicated?
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 14 October 2016 03: 29
            0
            you again misinterpreted the opposite - it is impossible to expose what is not, and you're lying here ...

            Japan received 16 factories from these countries at once during and after Hakhlin-Gola to help them ...
            Shamefully over a dozen American pilots openly fought for China, and openly the United States, Britain and the Netherlands delivered oil and rubber to Japan for years without which it could not have waged a war to destroy the Chinese. After the ostentatious imposition of the embargo, the American garrison at the oil-bearing Philippines bravely surrendered five times smaller to the Japanese landing, so that the oil appeared again to destroy the Chinese from Japan.
            The Nazis had nothing to hand over nearby, so high-quality oil for the production of motor oil, as well as other materials for the continuation of the war with the USSR, from the summer of 1942, was simply supplied to the Nazis by the American "Standard Oil" through neutral countries.
        4. murriou
          murriou 14 October 2016 03: 36
          +1
          Quote: Simpsonian
          Some of the records of the pre-war Muromites were surpassed only after 3-4 years, when Russia had already left the war

          Why do you need expensive, crystal bakers - you are illiterate! laughing
          You can’t even name a single IM record by specific numbers and for a specific date, you can only mumble, as if he was always the best in the world - but you’re climbing there too! lol

          Here is the performance characteristics of IM for the spring-summer of 1914 (before that, a non-serial prototype flew, the so-called "Russian knight"):
          Maximum speed / cruising 100/85 (it was never even close to a record).
          The practical ceiling first 2km, later 3km (there were attempts to declare a record, but really higher altitude was achieved earlier abroad).
          Payload combat: 3 machine guns and 400 kg of bombs.

          Without weapons (!) And a full crew (!), Without a full supply of fuel (!), Records were reached of 1100 kg (December 1913) and 1290 kg (February 1914)

          Flight duration, practical range - 5 hours, up to 500 km one way. Without cargo (!), With only one pilot, a record was reached for June 1914. 6 hours 33 minutes
          The number of engines was also a record, but this in itself was not a virtue, but pretending to be a virtue: developed countries already had aircraft engines of 200-300 hp, and the Russian Empire never had them.

          In March 1914, a three-engine Kaproni plane was already flying, inferior to the MI in the time of the first flight for several. months, a little in range (450km with a full load versus 500km under the same conditions), but significantly superior in speed (137/118) and altitude (4,8km). His combat load was 3 machine guns and 450 kg of bombs - that is, already higher than that of IM.

          In the future, the performance characteristics of Kaproni aircraft have already begun to exceed IM in ALL respects, and this is using their own Italian engines Fiat and Isotta-Frascini - when Sikorsky flew on imported engines.

          In 1917, the Kaproni aircraft, in the Ce.40 version, retaining a significant advantage over the MI in speed and altitude, increased the carrying capacity to 1,45 tons of bombs plus 4 machine guns, with a full crew and a full fuel reserve, flight range up to 700 km with full load. Moreover, they are already in 1916. bypassed Sikorsky in all respects, but they themselves lagged behind the most developed countries.

          At this time, the latest and most powerful MIs were made in Russia. "Ilya Muromets - E", with 4 Renault engines 220 hp each The Russian "advanced" industry could not even copy this, and there were problems with delivery from France - so the ENTIRE production of this aircraft in RI was 3 (in brackets, in words, in capital letters: THREE) copies. laughing In combat mode, he reached up to 520kg of bombs.
          This is at a time when developed countries produced more advanced aircraft in series of several. dozens in less than a year. In terms of their performance characteristics, IM-E lagged behind not only all analogues in developed countries, but even many average (!) Bombers.

          For example, the average (!) Bomber Friedrichshafen G.III (IV) in 1917 took 1500 kg of bombs on board plus a full crew, a full supply of fuel and 3 machine guns, and could fly up to 700 km with this cargo at a speed of 141 km / h.
          And the Germans have had heavy bombers since the fall of 1916. (DFW RI) they already took 2500-2600kg of bombs in normal combat mode, and could fly with this load up to 6 hours at a speed of 120km / h for 700+ km.

          Approximately equal to IM in terms of carrying capacity in 1917. there were already long-range bombers: the German Gotha with a practical ceiling of 6,5 km and a range of up to 840 km, and the British "Bristol Braemar" with a range of 2000 km (!) and a ceiling of 5,8 km.

          That is, in 1917 "Ilya Muromets" was already deeply and hopelessly backward in all respects an aircraft.
          In 1916 - noticeably retarded.
          In 1915, he was barely a private, on a par with Caproni, much inferior to him in speed and altitude - with equal carrying capacity and range.

          Quote: Simpsonian
          In hundreds, in thousands, they produced single shelves.

          in RI, no planes at all could be produced on such a scale. They did not make their own fighters at all, at best they were bad copies of the Newports and Farman. And examples of foreign large aircraft with good performance characteristics, moreover, made on native engines and other native equipment, I have already cited above.

          I can bring more, many, many, do you want? laughing

          Quote: Simpsonian
          As always, you are trying to lie, and you carved yourself with this arithmetic with 30-26 "IM".

          Any objections? Let's go to the studio. lol Yours * unhealthy fantasies * instead of evidence do not offer.laughing
          1. Simpsonian
            Simpsonian 15 October 2016 04: 52
            0
            Oh, again about "illiteracy" ... Again - your ilyich in Europe crunched with rolls. on someone's shishi ... then I arrived with a sealed carriage full of "rolls", etc. to arrange another anti-Russian coup against the background of the next war you organized with Russia, as it was in 1905-07.

            Before 1917, IM had no analogues at all, the Italian did not even reach the class ... there is nothing to compare with, therefore, instead of the next Trotskyite zdezdezh and the Bolshevik muhlezh with numbers, drink valerian and snack pedigirpal.

            They made their fighters in Tsarist Russia. No one except her (and even later even Italy) had strategic bombers / scouts until 1917! They are much more difficult to make fighters.

            Records are set and LTH are written in the same conditions.

            What could be the objection to another schizoid dirty trick with recording 26 aircraft damaged in the Tsarist military losses during the revolution on earth ?!

            Better yet, bring the German losses on strategic airships "which did not shoot down" ... lol
            and French, American and English, which they didn’t even have in their dreams.
  28. murriou
    murriou 14 October 2016 03: 43
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    The war of 1905 could not continue exhausted Japan, and not Great Russia, even despite the revolution arranged by you in it.

    1. Evidence of the exhaustion of Japan, you have not brought.
    In reality, "exhausted" Japan also captured Sakhalin, while the "mighty" Russian army sat in its positions quietly.

    2. The combat readiness of the Russian army in the REV was several times less than the Japanese, and in the event of a Russian attack on the Japanese prepared positions, the losses of the Russian army would be enormous - so even a fair numerical advantage would not guarantee Russian victory.

    3. Oh how! It turns out that I made a revolution in 1905! Thank, *inimitable* you are ours, thanks! laughing laughing laughing
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 15 October 2016 04: 48
      0
      You can find evidence of exhaustion of Japan on the Internet itself.
      What evidence of Russia's depletion do you have? laughing
      As well as evidence of lesser combat readiness?

      The link to you was from DART2027, you wrote in response that you read this book all. It turns out that everything except these places.

      The Russian army is still going to the Far East ...

      People like you have arranged it, now they continue to try here to defame Tsarist Russia.
  29. murriou
    murriou 15 October 2016 06: 26
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    You indulged in ridiculously specific figures, increasing the loss of Muromtsev from 1-2 to 30.

    Here it is * unique instance * this simpsonian - well, what to do, the name obliges laughing

    Have you ever given real numbers, dates, facts? Where are the sources of your rotten "knowledge", have you ever been able to tell? laughing

    Keep a poverty list:
    http://alexww1.livejournal.com/2261.html
    approximately the same can be found in other places, for example, http://www.airwar.ru/history/av1ww/murom/murom_01
    .html
    Even bakeries recognize and publish this information if they have at least some intelligence and education left. Well, you are a completely pathological case, even among the bakers. lol

    If your brains are not enough to read and master the ready-made information, as is usually the case with you, then here is a brief summary of the IRREVERSIBLE losses "IM" (there were many more reversible losses, but we will not talk about them yet):
    4 combat - 2 from fighters, 2 from anti-aircraft fire.
    2 burned by their own crews as the enemy approached (in one case - imaginary) ..
    17 accidents in flight and during take-off and landing.
    3 accidents on earth ..
    4 losses from storms and hurricanes.
    Total 30, if someone did not learn to count laughing .

    But that's not all: in April 1916, a raid of German bombers led to heavy damage to 4 "IM" aircraft at the airfield. They were not included in the above list, tk. they were not considered destroyed, but after that they were not noticed among the combat aircraft.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    The Italians lagged a year and a half.

    I have known your problems with arithmetic for a long time, and I always sympathize with them, poor thing. You are ours. laughing
    The first flight of the EXPERIMENTAL "Russian Knight" - April 1913. He was not yet capable of anything other than working out the design.
    The first flight of the IM PROTOTYPE - December 1913. This is still an experiment and demo.
    The first flight of the SERIAL "IM" - April 1914.

    Kaproni pilot aircraft began flights from the end of 1913.
    The first flight of the SERIAL Caproni Ca.31 was in March 1914, and in the same March it had already completed a "loop".

    As you can see, the mass production of Kaproni started even a month earlier than Sikorsky, and with the beginning of the experiments, it was no more than six months behind. .
    A year and a half backlog - your personal fantasies.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    The rest are years behind.

    And this is also nonsense, usual for you. I sympathize with your inability to read in Russian: I have already cited the real facts that refute this lies too.
    Why do "Russian patriots" have such problems with the Russian language so often ?! lol

    I don’t ask why many of them have foreign flags and foreign names laughing

    Quote: Simpsonian
    She had her own aviation / automobile ICE; they were produced, for example, by Sormovo and Russo-Balt.

    You "forgot" to clarify the origin of the design of these "Russian" engines, as well as the scale of their production laughing
    Especially for you, it’s secret that it was in developed countries, for comparison.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Sikorsky also built on Russian engines.

    Yeah? Which of these engines are Russian? German "Argus" and "Mercedes", French "Gnomes" and "Renault", English "Salmsons"?

    Or have you finally read my message, which says about as many as 40 copies of "Russian" engines, copied on "Russo-Balt" again from the German model? Congratulations on your success! Another 10 years, and you really learn to read! laughing
    = * =
  30. murriou
    murriou 15 October 2016 06: 30
    +1
    = * =
    Quote: Simpsonian
    Foreigners could not build such aircraft on their engines.

    Inability to read again? Sorry...
    Caproni built his planes on Fiat and Hispano-Suiza engines.
    Whose were they? Russians, or what?
    Whose were the Argus and Mercedes that the German planes and airships flew? Incl. much more high-speed, high-altitude and lifting than "IM"?
    Whose Renault and Gnomes were? Whose were the Salmsons? You are again in a puddle with your fantasies - but I'm afraid you won't even be smart enough to understand how much you lack intelligence ... laughing

    Quote: Simpsonian
    You clearly immediately forgot about the gas mask.

    And what does a gas mask have to do with aviation? laughing

    No, I remember your obsession that Zelinsky was the only one in the world to think of gas masks, which the Germans had been widely using since 1915, and analogues in firefighters around the world appeared about fifty, at least, years earlier.

    For silly crystal bakers, the essence of Zelinsky’s invention is unknown. I suggest: it consisted precisely in the use of charcoal as an adsorbent. Instead of other previously used products, more expensive and less effective, such as kieselguhr and pumice. Yes, that was helpful. But not as much as you are trying to argue. In any case, here it is not a topic at all.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    In most IMs, it exceeded until the end of 1917,

    Again I sympathize with your inability to read. In 1917, the planes of developed countries were already STRONGLY superior to Sikorsky's "IM". And at the same time - the developed countries made their planes on their own engines, and Russia was incapable of this before the revolution.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    The first strategic bombers were precisely "Ilya Muromets" by Sikorsky

    Yes, this is not the first time you repeat this nonsense - and not one of these repetitions, like any number of them, makes nonsense true.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Intercontinental serial bombers appeared much later than the Second World War.

    The B-17, etc. range in several thousand km was quite an intercontinental, if anyone is not in the know. And this plane was launched in a large series before WWII, but how should the baker know this? laughing

    Quote: Simpsonian
    A strategic bomber is a bomber that solves contemporary strategic tasks

    And what STRATEGIC tasks have ever been solved by "IM" in real history, and not in your delusional fantasies? laughing

    Quote: Simpsonian
    As a scout "IM" had a much larger radius, reliability and security

    Greater than WHAT? By the middle of WWI, the planes of developed countries had a range of operations one and a half times greater than that of the "IM": 700 km or more against 500 km.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    Then the Soviet Union scrambled for engines after the Trotskyist pogrom almost until the end of the Second World War

    Yeah, begging. He released tens of thousands of aircraft during the Second World War, and each was equipped with a Soviet-made engine.

    How could the USSR before the "advanced" tsarist Russia, which received from abroad more than 90% of "Russian" aircraft engines and a slightly smaller share of "Russian" automobile engines, yes, yes! laughing
  31. murriou
    murriou 15 October 2016 06: 33
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    They made their fighters in Tsarist Russia

    Once again, I ask you for real examples of Russian fighter aircraft in WWI.

    I look forward to what you offer me? Nieuporas? "Farmers"? The Fokkers? "Sopwiches"? Or do you know any other "Russian" surnames? laughing laughing laughing
  32. murriou
    murriou 15 October 2016 07: 10
    +1
    Quote: Simpsonian
    You can find evidence of exhaustion of Japan on the Internet itself.

    Translated into Russian from crystal bakery: you are incapable of proving your crap yourself. laughing laughing

    Quote: Simpsonian
    What evidence of Russia's depletion do you have?

    And what, I wrote somewhere about the depletion of RI in the REV? Show!!! laughing

    But about the deepest powerlessness of the Russian army and navy in this war, he wrote.
    I can write again and again substantiate with real facts, if anyone does not know them yet. lol

    Quote: Simpsonian
    As well as evidence of lesser combat readiness?

    Traditionally, I sympathize with your inability to read. But helping the wretched is a good thing, so I will repeat it once again: with equal initiative, the losses of Russians in all such battles (Wafangou, Shahe, Sandepu) are many times greater than those of the Japanese.

    When the Japanese attacked, they should, in theory, have previously had 3-4 times superiority and 2-3 times more losses than the defending side.

    In reality, the Japanese successfully attacked with an equal and even smaller number, according to the results, an approximate equality of losses was obtained or even more losses for the Russian side.
    The exception to major battles was perhaps Liaoyansk, but there still was a mountainous area and 3 echelons of defense.

    At sea, see the Tsushima loss ratio: tens of times! Even the most lacquered versions cannot hide this catastrophe.
    What else do you need evidence of the superiority of Japanese combat readiness, as well as yours, ahem, * very limited ability to understand * ?

    Quote: Simpsonian
    The link to you was from DART2027, you wrote in response that you read this book all.

    Yes, I did. Yes, all.
    You are not. And he, apparently, too.
    Because there, in addition to the story of Japanese losses, there was also a high readiness of the Japanese people to sacrifice themselves for victory.
    The statements there were very humiliating for the Russians and Russia, but at the same time they were fairly fair.
    You, as usual, "did not notice" it.

    Quote: Simpsonian
    The Russian army is still going to the Far East ...

    Yeah, yeah, judging by the time taken - walked, and then slowly laughing

    In the winter of 1904, war broke out, and in the summer-autumn of 1905, Linevich still continued, like Kuropatkin before, to wait for reinforcements. More than a year and a half were waiting for reinforcements until the war ended laughing

    For comparison: the army daily crosswalk - 30 km per day, Suvorov could reach up to 50 km.
    Grandma Emma Gatewood at the age of 70 passed 3,5 thousand kilometers in 142 days, through the mountains, getting food on the way herself and making half of the Suvorov crossing (3/4 army) per day. From Moscow to Manchuria, this grandmother would walk on foot in 8 months. But the Russian army and the pace of movement of this grandmother and then could not afford laughing

    And in the rest of the world, at the beginning of the 20th century, developed countries transported their troops in much faster and more efficient ways. lol
  33. Simpsonian
    Simpsonian 16 October 2016 09: 46
    0
    Quote: murriou
    ... bark-bark-bark ...


    Too many letters and little meaning.

    Who would doubt that you "will not understand" that it is easier to make a fighter than a bomber, so they were made by all and sundry, for example the same Sikorsky, by the way the best pre-revolutionary was his Russian one.
    This bombers almost until the end of the war, no one except Tsarist Russia did lol
    Then, after the red terror, there was almost no one to work, hence the problems in the USSR with engines up to VK-108,

    Watch your nonsense 30-26, clown, bakeries are you with your Form,
    for normal people "livzhezhurnal", according to the simple-minded LJ, before that very, there are the same LJ nicknames like you, and with your "30-26", pulling an owl on the globe, they refer to each other ...

    A theater of operations with Japan in the Far East was the most remote in the entire history of the world, it wasn’t possible to get there differently and your Masonic revolutionary campaign took advantage of this when the main Russian forces approached there, you dirtying them along the way (soaked gunpowder in the Navy and rotted army soldier's shoes) , staged a revolution in central Russia, and pulled up countries in the defense of Japan by the Masonic upbringing of which this country is in fact the last 160 years.

    Wrote
    Quote: Simpsonian

    Only the completely stubborn Russophobe can put the military-economic power of Tsarist Russia below Japanese imria. Only it, with extended communications, even with sabotage, decides in the long run.
    Your japons would be sitting behind the ice-free straits in Japan proper for another 15 years, until the Russian aviation invented, which any large ship in the coastal zone takes. Then they would be piled on there too, which is why in 1945, when she was already, they surrendered to the Americans in turmoil, if only the Russians would not occupy them and they could continue to drag along Tsushima, during which only every 10th Russian shell would explode. lol

    and you just noticed on all counts and even about the "trench shit in front of the Japanese army" about anti-Russian diarrhea (this is probably when the guns were rolled out for direct fire, so somehow it doesn't stick)
    Quite stubborn zoological Russophobes that the Russians allegedly did not know how to shoot from closed positions - please do not worry in advance; all this (not only the Russians) knew how to do this even before the invention of the bombers in the Middle Ages.

    YOU ARE EVEN NOT FUNNY fool
  34. murriou
    murriou 16 October 2016 13: 26
    +1
    Dadaga Simpson! I believe that it’s hard for you to read and understand what is written not the first time in plain Russian, but let it be your problems.

    For the deaf a hundred times, they do not serve mass. When you learn to read in Russian, when you master already written - come in, we will talk more. lol

    Good luck She to you, with yours * outstanding abilities *, for this you will need a lot laughing
    1. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 17 October 2016 05: 02
      0
      Well, you don’t just set this task for yourself, therefore you have a zoo-Russophobe and abilities, except how you can misinterpret everything, there are none, and never will be.
    2. Simpsonian
      Simpsonian 17 October 2016 07: 51
      0
      Quote: murriou
      Good luck!

      and the losses of the German large "Zeppellins", which until 1917 did not have such aircraft as "Ilya Muromets", can be viewed here, helmet lol
      wikipedia: "Imperial_Military
      air_power_Germany "
      the proportion is reversed - little is left of their strategic air fleet of airships
      Airplanes similar to "IM" began to appear in them only six months after you made a bloody mess in Russia, with a real socialization of wives, by the way, then Russia had no time for airplanes, just like not up to this world war arranged by you through printing ink
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