Rocket heading to the ship

85


Landing exercises are being landed on naval exercises, they are searching for submarines and sometimes shooting at targets in the form of barges anchored with container barricades lined up on the deck. (Why? To facilitate the guidance of the missiles and report “up” about success.) If you get an opportunity, then bombed and shot decommissioned ships.



The variant with interception of the air purposes is much less often fulfilled. The next radio-controlled "blank" (as a rule, subsonic) is launched, along which ship-based air defense systems fire. If there are enough long-range missiles and allow the characteristics of the radar, you can try to intercept the ballistic missile warhead. To get a bullet in a flying bullet. In the sparkling high in the sky night meteorite. Somewhere apart, hundreds of miles away from the ship.

But almost no one ever shot at air targets equipped with an active target guidance system. At that tragic and dangerous moment, when the simulator of a combat missile went with a COURSE AT SHOOTING SHOOTING AT HIM.

Exercise leaders know how dangerous such experiments are. That the possibilities of even the best echelon defense are described by the 0,9 fraction ..., and most of the ships are generally defenseless against such a threat. Too little time and the cost of a mistake.

Happy starts, or what, if you still bahnem?

Fools and suicides in command positions is not so much. And the number available, fortunately, does not reach the critical mass necessary to start a catastrophe.

Nevertheless, in the course of combat training of fleets of leading countries of the world, situations that resemble the “happy starts” described above sometimes and very rarely occurred. Those who gave orders, it is difficult to suspect evil intentions. Most likely, there was a reassessment of the capabilities of new defensive systems or a tragic (albeit statistically predictable) coincidence.

To prevent possible consequences, certain security measures were taken. A rocket self-destruct system was installed, which disconnected the GPS or undermined the simulator during a dangerous approach to the attacked ship.

Attack schemes have been developed, in which the target, in the event of an unsuccessful interception, should have missed its course with the attacked ship (although, in this case, you will not understand which of them is the target).

The calculations of the ship-based air defense missile systems are on full alert and notified about the likely direction and time of the start of the attack.

Exact exercise statistics are kept classified as “secret”, but certain information can be drawn from information leaked through the media. Despite its rarity, such “teachings” ended in an emergency three times, and once in a catastrophe.

Incident with the frigate “Entrym”

February 10, 1983, Atlantic Ocean. The frigate USS Antrim (FFG-20) attempted to intercept a radio-controlled target, shooting it from the newest and “unparalleled” self-defense complex “Phalanx”.

A couple of words about the “Falanx”: a six-barreled automatic gun and a radar guidance system mounted on a single mobile gun carriage. When compared with the domestic counterpart, the AK-630 metal cutter, Internet experts traditionally underestimate the Phalanx, hinting at the low power of 20-mm projectiles compared to X-NUMX-mm AK-30 caliber. And in vain. A monoblock from a cannon and a radar has a smaller error when firing than the AK-630 gun turret installed separately (often ten meters from each other) and its Pennant control radar. Also, due to its compactness of the entire system, the “Falanx” servo drives provide greater speed of turning the stem block (630 degrees / sec in any plane against 115 degrees / sec for AK-75).

Rocket heading to the ship

Battery AK-630. On the left edge of the photo is visible radar "Vympel"


Power is also not easy: this "naval R2D2" fires specially designed MK.149 projectiles with a tungsten core. Due to the absence of strict restrictions on weight and dimensions and requirements for transportation, ship guns are always more powerful aviation and land analogues. The muzzle velocity of the Phalanx projectiles is over a kilometer per second. When hitting anti-ship missiles, high-speed, dense and extremely durable MK.149 ammunition should cause a release of thermal energy and instant detonation of the missile warhead.

Those who speak of the weakness of “Phalanx CIWS” have never even shot themselves from the little ones themselves. If you remember the veterans' stories about how the DShK machine gun is crushing the brickwork, it’s easy to imagine how a six-barreled monster of twice the size goes by.

In 1996, during the RIMPAC-96 exercise, such a cannon in half a second cut the Intruder attack aircraft that had accidentally flown into the Phalanx defeat zone.

Why am I praising this “Falanx” here? To stop the debate about the inefficiency of the American defense system, which could have caused the events described below.

However, the reason was by no means anti-aircraft capabilities.

On that day, the air defenses worked perfectly. According to eyewitnesses, the antiaircraft gun “shredded” the drone into separate fragments, which collapsed into the water five hundred meters from the frigate. The target was stunned and completely destroyed.


Radio-controlled target Northrop BQM-74E Chukar


But they did not have time to celebrate the victory. As if according to the plot of the film about the terminator, burnt pieces drone ricocheted off the water and in a second they STARTED INTO THE FRIGATE SUPERSTRUCTURE. Spilled fuel caused a fire in the computer compartment, one sailor became the victim of the incident.

Despite all the absence of a warhead and the diminution of the drone itself (the launch weight is 250 kg), the frigate was disabled.

It is not difficult to imagine what will happen to any modern frigate at a meeting with a bunch of “Onyxes” and “Caliber”. Even if he manages to intercept them all, the wreckage of the downed rockets is guaranteed to cripple the ship.

In confirmation of this - the next short story.

In the summer of 1990, the Americans conducted a fun and instructive experiment. On board the decommissioned destroyer “Stoddard” (from the Second World War) numerous sensors, video cameras and “Phalanxes” of the new model were installed. The destroyer abandoned by the crew was turned into a sort of floating fort, which was to repel attacks from all points. There were no volunteer suicides among the sailors, so all the shooting was done in a fully automatic mode.


Converted into a USS Stoddard target (DD-566)


According to the Yankees themselves, they were able to intercept the entire range of missiles during the tests - from primitive BQM-74 to supersonic Vandals. However, the performance of “Phalanx” still turned out to be lower than 100%. Fragments of rockets reached the destroyer. And one aspiring drone hit the superstructure area, and, according to eyewitnesses, cut the diesel generator installed there in half. As I said, the efficiency was lower than 100%.

The death of “Monsoon”

- “First”, I “Third” (call sign MRK “Whirlwind”), “product” got into “Second” (call sign “Monsoon”). “Second” is on. People leave the ship ... ”

This famous story happened on April 16, 1987, 33 miles from Askold Island. Pacific Rocket Ship Squad fleet practiced joint firing of air defense systems. Having discovered a missile reaching him, the Monsoon missile launched a two-rocket salvo along it with the Osa-M marine anti-aircraft complex. Both SAMs exploded near the target, damaging the anti-ship missile with a flurry of fragments and the energy of the shock wave. However, by a tragic coincidence, the RM-15M Termit-R training target missile continued its flight and crashed into the superstructure of the attacked ship. The resulting fire completely de-energized the RTOs and created a threat of detonation of the ammunition on board. The approaching ships also did not dare to approach the dying Monsoon. As a result of the tragedy, 39 of the 76 sailors aboard were killed.



Within the framework of this article, the task of finding the guilty among the command and a full analysis of the actions of the crew members of the deceased MRK are not worth it. The case of the “Monsoon” is another example of the fact that the downed rocket continues to pose a threat to the ship and all those on board.

Sailors have known about this threat since the Second World War. Faced with the “kamikaze” attacks, the Americans quickly found out that even the powerful and automated “Bofors” of the 40 mm caliber in such a situation are not able to effectively protect the ship. The burning plane with the dead pilot continued his sorrowful path to the goal. It was not by chance that in the first post-war years the Yankees began to arm ships with anti-aircraft guns of caliber 76 mm.



In general, the situation described looks unambiguously:

1) knock down, ignite and shred a rocket into parts does not mean anything. The debris ricochets from the water and just continue on its way to the goal. At the same time, these fragments are a little similar to the fragments of a broken cup. These are pieces of aluminum and plastic weighed with a good dumbbell. Which move with the speed of a bullet. And while it can contain flammable and explosive substances in dangerous quantities;

2) knock down the CRP on long-range borders - the offer is good, but not real. Considering that the Earth is round, and modern PURs are flying low over water, they are detected at the last minute, at distances 10-20 miles from the ship. Where all hope only means melee. Which can not do anything: the kinetic energy of transonic objects having a mass from a passenger car is too high;

3) what to do with all this is decidedly incomprehensible. Putting five “Falanxes” and AK-630 on each ship will not solve the problem (see paragraphs 1 and 2).

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85 comments
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  1. +15
    6 October 2016 06: 53
    the author proposes to revive the battleships? well, so that the debris would not damage the rebound
    1. +3
      6 October 2016 06: 57
      Quote: izya top
      so that the ricochet debris is not damaged

      Just one aspect
      1. 0
        23 December 2016 12: 52
        ... in real combat, ships do not stand still - they maneuver, interfere and smoke screens ...
    2. +17
      6 October 2016 07: 49
      Yes, there is an understatement ... I read everything and waited for the armor to be ... winked
      1. +22
        6 October 2016 11: 42
        Only one seemed strange to me, the story of a drone shot down for more than half a kilometer (since it touched the water 500 meters away.
        - "On that day, the air defense worked perfectly. According to eyewitnesses, the anti-aircraft gun" shredded "the drone into separate fragments, which fell into the water five hundred meters from the frigate").
        And then a MIRACLE happened !!! otherwise I can’t call it!
        - "As if in the plot of a film about the terminator, the burnt pieces of the drone ricocheted off the water and in a second WAS INTO THE FRIGATE SUPERSTRUCTURE. The spilled fuel caused a fire in the computer compartment, one sailor became the victim of the incident."
        Explain to me, a person who knows physics and has seen rocket and artillery firing at targets at sea HOW !!! the wreckage could slip over the surface of the water 500 meters and then the fuel! If the target is destroyed! There are torn edges that cling to the surface and slow down, and the fuel would simply pour out of the hits. The real picture seems to me like this: the target was hit at a distance of more than 500 meters, something fell off from it, but it continued to fly and hit the ship or shot it down from 50 to 150 meters, and debris and unburned fuel came in handy. But in general, an advertising article.
      2. +4
        6 October 2016 12: 48
        and here her (armor) need is subtly veiled prompted wink
        1. AUL
          +1
          6 October 2016 13: 17
          2) knock down the CRP on long-range borders - the offer is good, but not real. Considering that the Earth is round, and modern PURs are flying low over water, they are detected at the last minute, at distances 10-20 miles from the ship. Where all hope only means melee. Which can not do anything: the kinetic energy of transonic objects having a mass from a passenger car is too high;

          Does the word "hockey" mean anything to you?
          1. +8
            6 October 2016 15: 53
            Quote from AUL
            Does the word "hockey" mean anything to you?

            And "hockey" is a completely different picture. If there is an AWACS, then there is AB nearby. And then the air defense system with the ZAK will only finish shooting the anti-ship missiles that have made their way through the screens of the "hornets".

            But as the Yankees themselves recently admitted, even they do not have enough AB for all tasks - and some of the tasks will have to be performed by the IBM without AB. This means that someone will have to work without a "flying saucer". smile

            In fact, even an AWACS plane will not solve anything by itself - it is engaged in the detection of targets, and not the guidance of missiles. To work on an unobservable goal on external target designation, an active radar seeker on a missile system is needed. In all other cases, the calculations will have to wait until the target comes out due to the radio horizon - to capture it and launch.
          2. +3
            6 October 2016 23: 25
            Quote from AUL
            Does the word "hockey" mean anything to you?

            And the "Hawkeye" is not getting confused by the RCC, but even by the RVV.
  2. +4
    6 October 2016 07: 23
    An unexpectedly good article about the consequences of attacks - in general, did anyone even think so ?!
    1. 0
      6 October 2016 12: 45
      Ага.
      I especially liked the traditional race about the indestructible power of American weapons compared to ours naturally, which, of course, is worthless.
  3. +11
    6 October 2016 07: 25
    Somewhat off topic, although related. Consequences of a recent ship attack.
    1. +4
      6 October 2016 07: 41
      Is it not by chance that the last Hussites spoiled the Saudis? wink
      1. +4
        6 October 2016 08: 21
        Quote: lewerlin53rus
        Is it not by chance that the last Hussites spoiled the Saudis?

        Yes. That's the one. HSV-2 Swift after the Houthis missile attack.
      2. 0
        6 October 2016 08: 23
        It is the most. Damaged .. but didn’t drown !?
        1. +4
          6 October 2016 09: 51
          "Damaged .. but not drowned !?"
          So the ship is completely disabled. Look carefully: everything that could have burned out. Yes, buoyancy was enough to stay afloat, but the ship is completely incompetent.
          PS: was the last picture in an article not from Battlefield 4 accidentally made? wink
        2. +1
          6 October 2016 20: 13
          Quote: guzik007
          It is the most. Damaged .. but didn’t drown !?

          First of all, the enemy must be killed; burial teams will bury the corpse.
    2. avt
      +2
      6 October 2016 09: 25
      Quote: igordok
      Consequences of a recent ship attack.

      Check this out ! Not burned out!
      Quote: guzik007
      Damaged .. but didn’t drown !?

      Well, the trimaran is all the same, however, I thought it would burn out a hanger under the waterline. But the campaign was all the same — scrap.
      1. +3
        6 October 2016 09: 56
        https://cont.ws/post/391843
        Photo of this emirate ship.
        But stayed afloat.
        How many pennies go into recovery, one shaitan knows.
        But the fact that the ship is not suitable for anything in the near future is a fact.
      2. 0
        6 October 2016 14: 08
        Not a trimaran, but a cutting catamaran.
    3. +7
      6 October 2016 15: 59
      Hmmm ... but there was such a harmonious theoretical concept of littoral ships - helicopter carriers.
      And she could not stand the very first encounter with harsh reality, where the armament of the parties to a local conflict in a third world country suddenly appears anti-ship missile systems with trained calculations. smile
  4. +8
    6 October 2016 07: 27
    "Shooting down anti-ship missiles at distant lines is a good proposal, but unrealistic."
    * sarcasm * that's probably why the tomcats were removed from service, right? * end of sarcasm * author's categoricalness, as always, is in place. The aator apparently specially "forgot" about the priority destruction of carriers, the mixed profile of the anti-ship missile flight, plane, etc.

    The actual power of 20mm is perfectly shown in the article. It turns out to be insufficient. The most interesting thing is that the author, apparently not counting himself as "Internet experts", gave only one characteristic for comparing 630 and phalanx. Caliber does not count, ammunition for 630 is not described. One! This is an example of a bright, unbiased work about comparing two artstom. "I praise the phalanx to stop talk about its inefficiency, so I will give examples of its ineffectiveness next."

    The splinters ricocheting off the water and flying at "bullet speed" is just funny. What bullet? 9x19? 9x18?
    1. +6
      6 October 2016 07: 49
      DrVintiorez comments are usually scrolled without delay, because contain nothing but childishly naive questions and silly and unfunny jokes. Sorry, dear, this is not a personal transition, but a statement of fact.

      This time I will answer. For anyone who may think that Vintorez is saying something in the case.
      Quote: DrVintorez
      probably therefore tomketa removed from service, right?

      There is no way that would GUARANTEE the interception of all long-range missiles

      Aviation - little hope. Airplanes hardly distinguish RCC above the water surface. And who will give guarantees that the aircraft will be in the direction from which the launch of the anti-ship missiles was made.
      Quote: DrVintorez
      Actually the power of 20mm in the article is perfectly shown. It turns out to be insufficient.

      You might think 30 mm will turn the rocket into dust

      When "Monsoon" didn't even have enough "Os"

      Quote: DrVintorez
      The splinters ricocheting off the water and flying at "bullet speed" is just funny. What bullet? 9x19? 9x18?

      Maybe 7,62, if Onyx
      1. +8
        6 October 2016 08: 20
        It is a pity that the author is fundamentally not friendly with numbers, juggles (or makes mistakes unintentionally) facts and is prone to demagogy. Nothing personal, just facts, dear.
        Question: why on board anteevs is there such a number of granites, no more no less?
        The chances of 30 mm effectively defeating RCC are higher than those of 20 mm. At least because of the effective shooting range. The difference is not great, but if we talk about fragments of the affected RCC, then even 10 meters can play a role.
        Mounting in one radar unit and a multi-barreled rapid-firing gun has its advantages, but also has its drawbacks: the impact of recoil on the electronics, at least.
        Wasps, as you yourself write (!!!) exploded next to the rocket, that is, non-contact. How many fragments hit the "product", what was the mass of the fragments? In the case of artillery systems, the probability of a direct hit can destroy / damage the anti-ship missile. And 20/30 mm is more significant than a fragment of a relatively light rocket. Again, 30 mm is preferable. It's a shame the 630 isn't American, is it?
        Well, as always, you forgot about plo, drloiu, rab and so on.
        1. +3
          6 October 2016 08: 40
          Quote: DrVintorez
          preferably 30 mm. Too bad 630 is not American, is it?
          Well, as always, you forgot about plo, drloiu, rab and so on.

          Does this all give a 100% guarantee?
          Quote: DrVintorez
          The chances of 30 mm to effectively hit RCC are higher than that of 20mm. At least because of the effective range of shooting. The difference is not great

          If the difference in your words is small, then what is the dispute

          There is no fundamental difference. The Americans in the years of WWII did not have enough 40 mm Bofors
          Quote: DrVintorez
          Wasps, as you write yourself (!!!) exploded next to the rocket, that is, non-contact

          This is how any missiles and air-to-air missiles work.

          In addition to special missile defense systems, where kinetic interception is necessary (a direct hit on target)
          Quote: DrVintorez
          Too bad 630 is not American, is it?

          On domestic dirks and broadswords guns and radar - a single candy bar
          1. +4
            6 October 2016 08: 57
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Does this all give a 100% guarantee?

            100% guarantee does not give anything.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            then what is the argument

            Pulling phrases out of context is the last thing.
            Compare the striking elements of the zur and shells of 20/30 mm in terms of the striking effect.
            I'm not saying that a candy bar is worse or better. I only say that there and there are disadvantages.
      2. +3
        6 October 2016 12: 40
        In this case, the Granite / Volcano is just a flying sledgehammer, given the speed, weight and security of the rocket.
  5. +15
    6 October 2016 07: 48
    ABOUT! Even with almost no lyrics, almost everything is clear and to the point! smile
    The answer to this question could be given by the results of combat firing in the world's fleets over the past 10-15 years. The three negative examples taken out of history do not in any way lead to a full analysis. For example, the case of the MRK shows, first of all, not that the air defense / missile defense system is powerless against the anti-ship missile system, but that specifically on the MRK this very air defense / missile defense system in view of the wretched "Wasp" is absolutely none. Did anyone think otherwise? The examples given are known precisely because they are exceptional in their consequences. Now, if every teaching ended like that, then maybe ...
    And so, examples can be pulled any, and proving anything. For the umpteenth time I quote:
    An interesting case in the Baltic in 1974, when the patrol ship "Tuman" (project 50)
    the Termit cruise missile was also aimed. The gunners of this old ship several halls
    We themselves smashed the target to smithereens and saved our ship from destruction.
    VVKostrichenko, BAAizenberg, "The Navy of the USSR and Russia. Accidents and Catastrophes" Part 3, page 10. Here are some conclusions I could draw on this example? Long live missile defense system based on 100-mm B-34, give them to all ships of the fleet? Of course not, this is an accident. So we need statistics - an analysis of ten to twenty training firing without selection by result, and with the obligatory understanding of the conditions. Because tactical standards are the basis (ammunition consumption for a typical target) - the same missile defense system can beat off ten anti-ship missiles, but not twenty anti-ship missiles.
    to shoot down anti-ship missiles at distant frontiers - the proposal is good, but not real. Given that the Earth is round, and modern DSPs fly low above the water, they are detected at the last minute, at distances of 10-20 miles from the ship
    A bold statement. For example, RCC Harpoon at an altitude of 10 meters will be detected by RNR 1164 at a distance of about 30 km from the ship. The harpoon will cover this distance in about 110 seconds. With the rate of fire, one launch in 3 seconds - how many SAMs will have time to deploy the S-300F on the approaching Harpoons?
    1. +6
      6 October 2016 08: 08
      if all Harpoons are lined up in a queue - then yes, it will. And if from different sides, then from three it can not be beaten off. Boobs alone
      1. +1
        6 October 2016 09: 53
        Quote: Tlauicol
        if all Harpoons are in line

        what I'm wildly sorry ..... and who will build the harpoons?
      2. +5
        6 October 2016 13: 33
        Quote: Tlauicol
        And if from different sides, then from three it can not be beaten off. Boobs alone

        That’s why it’s on the ships for missiles and put PU bezbalnye (like UKKS, or drum, like on the Dagger), and the Siska is replaced with AFARs (like Redut / Polynom). The result is reaction time and multichannel. And on the ships, air defense systems are installed in pairs - in the bow and stern, unless, of course, the displacement allows.
        Well, and not a trace of electronic warfare (not a Jewish priest, but about the r / e struggle!) To forget ...
        In the future, this problem will be solved by lasers and railguns.
        In the meantime, we have what we have.
    2. +1
      6 October 2016 08: 09
      Quote: Alex_59
      The answer to this question could give the results of live firing in the fleets of the world over the past 10-15 years.

      We have combat experience 1944-45.
      (just come without clowning about a different era. The problem was identical - to prevent burning pieces of the plane that died before the ship heading onto the ship into ships. Dozens of Bofors and Oerlikon trunks instead of six barrels).

      We have at least three precedents from the rocket era (which we managed to dig up to this day)

      We have a logic that shows that, proceeding from the laws of classical physics and everyday experience, the described problem with missile attacks is realistic.
      Quote: Alex_59
      So what is needed is statistics - an analysis of ten to twenty educational firing practice without a selection of the result, and with a mandatory understanding of the conditions.

      Ktozh will go to certain death
      Quote: Alex_59
      this very air defense / missile defense in view of the wretched "Wasp" absolutely no

      In your own language, the rocket was also "none"

      And by the way, the Wasp successfully hit the rocket. But as it turned out, hitting the PKP and leveling the threat are two different things.
      And I don't think that 128 kg of missiles contained so little explosives
      1. +5
        6 October 2016 08: 37
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Don't clown

        But only? What immediately drain? smile
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Ktozh will go to certain death
        Duck here you would find out - what cases were there, and not just you pulled out to illustrate your calculations.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        We have a logic that shows that, proceeding from the laws of classical physics and everyday experience, the described problem with missile attacks is realistic.
        I do not argue with logic and physics. The described situation with the survivability of missiles is known. But examples ... Evaluating the effectiveness of missile defense against these examples is impossible. We can only say that those elements of missile defense that are responsible for the last frontier have insufficient power to guarantee the destruction of the target. Conclusion - the means of the last frontier of defense must be improved. Or are you talking about armor again? In the case of RTOs this will not help, there are no reserves for armor. Larger NK missile defense systems are better and layered, the problem is not so acute for them, and I have always welcomed the introduction of local booking in order to minimize the consequences of hits. Just a limited reservation (but without the fanaticism that is peculiar to you) can remove the issue of such flying fragments, and most of the goals will be removed by the very missile defense system at distant lines of sight that you immediately wrote down as ineffective. Here, everything again rests on the question of the standards and consumption of the knowledge base for a typical purpose.
        1. +1
          6 October 2016 08: 53
          Quote: Alex_59
          But only? What immediately drain?

          There was nothing to merge

          tlauikol above already answered
          Quote: Alex_59
          Duck here you would find out - what cases were there, and not just you pulled out to illustrate your calculations.

          I do not think that typed a dozen

          according to kaa -
          at the anti-ship missile target, the altitude guidance channel was turned off (it could not dive at the target), the altimeter - at 50m, firing with the parameter was when the anti-ship missile went aft (not the bow!

          None of the teachings modulates the real situation. when the RCC flies straight to the side at a height of 5-10 m

          And the isolated cases that I unearthed describe everything as it should be according to the law of conservation of momentum.
          Quote: Alex_59
          But examples ...

          What are

          All other exercises are conducted in artificial conditions, with safety measures, precluding a meeting with splinters.
          1. +3
            6 October 2016 09: 08
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            There was nothing to merge

            tlauikol above already answered

            He answered about the direction of the attack, and the conditions for attack from different sides still need to be created. And the answer is that the C-300 will have time to shoot out the 27 me missiles during the time when the pack of Garpunov overcomes 30 km from the moment of detection. With the probability of 0,75 defeat, this gives potential in 20 of intercepted Harpoons. I hope your logic and physics do not assume that having received a hit in 100 kg of explosives at a distance of 5 km from the target, spears of Harpoon will fly to the side?
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            according to kaa -

            You bring the whole words of the KAA. There is still what the man said: So, an attacking anti-ship missile ship, unambiguously, needs to be thrown into the sea with an anti-aircraft missile system, as is done on the Calm. "Falcon Strike", when two tons of iron dive into the attacking missile defense system from above - not a single aircraft will withstand! On that, in fact, we stand.

            In its pure form, what I am saying. On distant approaches, long-range heavy missiles, from top to bottom. All this works great, both for us and for the Americans. Which of the examples you described shows the effectiveness of such a missile defense system? I am sure that the SM-2 warhead is quite capable of breaking the head of the "Onyx", and the 48Н6Е of the "Harpoon", so that nothing will reach the side. And for the third time I repeat - everything depends on the fulfillment of the standards. How many Harpoons are needed in a salvo for the S-300 to fail and the Ak-630 not to be finished off? If the standard is met, the target is hit. If not, it is not affected. And the prerequisites for fulfilling the standards lie in the plane of tactics - how to reach the line of attack in the required concentration of forces, will the enemy allow it? That's the salt.
            1. +1
              6 October 2016 09: 30
              so now many carriers of the RBS Otomat NSM or Harpoon are capable of releasing anti-ship missiles from one direction (one carrier), and they attack the target from different ones - this is how pr.1164 doesn’t allow a salvo from a boat or shore, for example? Yes, and the dead zone S-300 is not zero meters
            2. +1
              6 October 2016 09: 33
              Quote: Alex_59
              and the conditions for the attack from different sides still need to be created.

              will create for it do not worry

              it's like an option

              BTsM missiles also smarter
              Quote: Alex_59
              You are the words of KAA entirely.

              OK, and you notice it is the first part of the quote

              I hope you received an answer to your question about statistics. It just doesn't seem to be there. Because it's crazy and no one in the exercises does not simulate real conditions. Isolated cases only confirmed concerns
              Quote: Alex_59
              . On distant approaches, long-range heavy missiles, from top to bottom.

              Naive babble

              1. Her gos will not see anything against the background of water

              2. Kinetic interception in those conditions is impossible

              3. And the action of fragmentation warhead will be no different

              4. There are no long-distance approaches, everything takes time (reaction time of the complex + response time of the shift on duty + other possible delays) when the distance is 30 km, and the speed can be sound
              Quote: Alex_59
              How many Harpoons do you need in a salvo to prevent the C-300 from working

              Stupid question. As you yourself wrote in the comments about the Falkland War: Calculated performance characteristics and practice are two different things.
            3. +2
              6 October 2016 16: 12
              Quote: Alex_59
              And the answer is that the S-300 will have time to shoot 27 SAMs while the pack of Garpunov overcomes 30 km from the moment of detection. With a probability of defeat of 0,75, this gives a potential of 20 intercepted Harpoons.

              I, of course, wildly apologize, but the ratio of "27 missiles to 20 intercepted Harpoons" - this is voluntarism. ©

              To begin with, from the time of the first Soviet air defense systems, two missiles were always launched to hit a target. wink

              Secondly, the calculation takes time to confirm the defeat of the target and capture and capture of a new one. So we released 12 missiles for 6 targets, occupied all the channels - and we are waiting for their release after the defeat of the first target - and only after that we capture a new one.
              1. 0
                29 November 2016 00: 37
                Well, the S-75 provided for firing and 3 missiles at one target. But the decision on the number of missiles per target is always for the firing one.
                To overload the capabilities of defensive air defense systems is simpler, and in interference it is even simpler.
                There would be opportunities, but ... this is a duel situation of one cruiser against AUG.
                An American fairy tale - let us bomb all of us and that there wouldn’t be anything for us.
                But, with the same success it is possible in a dream to substitute “J. Ford” under a concentrated salvo strike by Granites from three submarines and two cruisers, while forgetting to bring an aircraft carrier security group into the area. Dreaming is not harmful.
        2. +1
          6 October 2016 08: 57
          Quote: Alex_59
          limited booking (but without fanaticism)

          What is meant by "fanaticism"?

          can somehow confirm this with quotes or links
          1. 0
            7 October 2016 19: 06
            I am kerosene laughing
            Oleg, no kidding, we really have ships with an armored "citadel" under construction. As much as 100mm. round.
            PS. I do not give out the secrets of the motherland Yes
      2. 0
        6 October 2016 09: 07


        you need to look for information about the shelling of dd-964 and ddg-31 only horseradish you will find
        1. 0
          6 October 2016 09: 43
          although, in the case of drones, it’s also not a pure experiment - they’re not shooting at them, so put them aside!
        2. 0
          6 October 2016 10: 23
          Quote: Tlauicol

          you need to look for information about the shelling of dd-964 and ddg-31 only horseradish you will find


          Is 964 completely radio-controlled?
          Yes, and with a laser installation?
          1. +4
            6 October 2016 10: 39
            An interesting review.

            https://cont.ws/post/391781
            Losses of Saudi Arabia at sea in the war with Yemen.

            On October 7, 2015, the Yemeni coastal defense fired 1 P-20 anti-ship missile at a Saudi coalition ship. After being hit by a rocket, the burning and sinking ship washed ashore.
            A very interesting review on missile damage to ships.
            The question is, do these emiratos have a missile defense system and an air defense system on their bowels? But all the ships they have are buildings for Americans, Angles, Franks.

            The Saudi patrol ship "Al Dammam" of the "Modified La Fayett" class was sunk. It had a displacement of 4650 tons, full dimensions: length 133,6 meters, width 17,2 meters, draft 4,1 meters. Power plant: 4 diesel engines with a total capacity of 28000 hp. full speed 25 knots cruising range 7000 miles at 15 knots armament: 2x4 launchers for anti-aircraft missiles "Exoset MM-40 Block II" (8 missiles), 2x8 vertical launchers for anti-aircraft missiles "Aster-15" (total 16 missiles), 1x1 76-mm artillery mount "Super Rapid" with GGE shells, 2x1 20-mm artillery mounts "Giat 15B", 2x1 12,7-mm machine guns "M2HB", 4х533-mm torpedo tubes with torpedoes "F-17P" ( 4 torpedoes), 1 deck helicopter "Dauphin 2". electronic warfare systems: 2x10 decoy launchers "Matra Dagaie Mk 2", towed torpedo trap "SLAT", 2 jamming systems "Salamandre", RTR station "Altesse". crew of 181 people

            As you can see in the video, the ship fired 1 Aster-15 anti-aircraft missile, which did not hit the target. Presumably he fired at the missiles, but could not shoot them down. Jamming stations and decoys were ineffective.
    3. +2
      6 October 2016 08: 47
      Quote: Alex_59
      The three negative examples taken out of history do not in any way lead to a full analysis. For example, the case of the MRK shows, first of all, not that the air defense / missile defense system is powerless against the anti-ship missile system, but that specifically on the MRK this very air defense / missile defense system in view of the wretched "Wasp" is absolutely none. Did anyone think otherwise? The examples given are known precisely because they are exceptional in their consequences. Now, if every teaching ended like that, then maybe ...

      good drinks
      Quote: Alex_59
      So what is needed is statistics - an analysis of ten to twenty educational firing practice without a selection of the result, and with a mandatory understanding of the conditions.

      good drinks
      Quote: Alex_59
      With the rate of fire, one launch in 3 seconds - how many SAMs will have time to deploy the S-300F on the approaching Harpoons?

      what this does not fit into the evidence base and therefore insignificant ... What is given in the article is more substantial wassat
      Always for the fact that the material was not presented one-sidedly, but balanced and reasoned, and for this it is necessary to at least not exclude cases that contradict the main theme of the material. Alas, Oleg Kaptsov sins this ... request
      1. +2
        6 October 2016 16: 24
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Always for the fact that the material was not presented one-sidedly, but balanced and reasoned, and for this it is necessary to at least not exclude cases that contradict the main theme of the material.

        I am afraid that few people will master such an article. smile
        Because it will need, for example, to calculate the number of airborne targets hit by the whole set of ship air defense systems and ZAK - taking into account the channel of the air defense system, the range of the air defense system at different heights and the probability of hitting targets with a pair of air defense systems (again at different heights), the required probability of destruction goals in this task (destroyed with a probability of at least XX% - that is, re-launches may be required), the duration of the transition cycle from the destroyed target to capture and track a new radar radiation pattern (for the same S-300 with its 90 degree sector it may be necessary to rotate the antenna mechanically for new purposes - and this is time-time-time), etc., etc.
        In short, the mass of numbers and formulas - polyabukf.
        1. 0
          6 October 2016 19: 27
          Quote: Alexey RA
          I am afraid that few people will master such an article.

          Quote: Alexey RA
          In short, the mass of numbers and formulas is multibuffer.

          But the point is (or an example that refutes the above) can be summarized wink A reader who is not familiar with what is described will have a better opinion about the problem after reading the material. When presented, as with Kaptsov, one opinion will be formed, under conditions of solving the problem in more different ways, a different opinion will develop. So after all, they manipulate, and even more so among young people during the "iPhone", the desire to read or find confirmation in other sources is completely absent laughing Therefore, it is from the material of the primary article that an opinion about the subject of discussion is formed. They revered Kaptsov so much and will insist on every corner that the "Phalanxes" and our "metal cutters" are extra ballast on ships because they do not completely shoot down the rocket and its fragments can still fly about five hundred meters and destroy the ship wassat
          1. 0
            6 October 2016 23: 48
            Quote: Rurikovich
            they will repeat at every corner that "Phalanxes" and our "metal cutters" are extra ballast on ships because they do not completely shoot down the rocket and its fragments can still fly about five hundred meters and destroy the ship

            Armament is not superfluous. It is ineffective or not at all effective FOR THIS SITUATION. To push fleas with tanks - there will also be very low efficiency. Decommissioned tanks?
        2. 0
          6 October 2016 23: 45
          Quote: Alexey RA
          it will be necessary, for example, to calculate the number of airborne targets hit by the whole set of naval air defense systems and air defense systems - taking into account the channel of air defense systems, the range of air defense systems at different heights and the probability of hitting targets with a pair of air defense systems (again at different heights), the required probability of hitting the target in this task (destroyed with a probability of at least XX% - that is, repeated launches may be required), the duration of the transition cycle from the destroyed target to capture and track a new radar radiation pattern (because for the same S-300 with its 90 degree sector a mechanical turn-over may be required antennas for new purposes - and this is time-time-time), etc., etc.

          Wouldn't it be too highly specialized article? For such a citizen of the Russian Federation can get a deadline, and not a citizen - the status of "persona non grata". And the article itself with such an analysis will be closed immediately. Left only for the most competent and interested.
    4. 0
      6 October 2016 09: 26
      The problem here is not that the statistics are incorrect.
      The problem is different. Only the probability of hitting the target is taken into account. while many other factors determining the appropriateness of booking are not taken into account.
      For instance. Two countries have 100 billion to build cruisers.
      One built 10 armored ships of 10 billion each.
      Second 8 armored ships for 12 billion. Offensive capabilities of the ships are identical.
      In the first country, in the first battle with the effectiveness of naval air defense / missile defense, 0,9 in 9 ships will be able to 100% complete the task and remain intact. The 10th ship will be damaged, but there is a chance that up to this point he will fulfill his combat mission. By the second battle there will be 9 ships.

      In the second country, in the first battle, only 8 ships can complete the task. Which, other things being equal, will lead to defeat in the battle. In this case, the second battle will be 8 ships.

      Eventually. The armless naval forces in such a simplified scenario are more effective in the first two battles. And only by the third battle are armored ships aligned in efficiency. This, of course, if the defeat did not lead to the death of the armored ships.
  6. +1
    6 October 2016 07: 51
    The article is good, voluminous. But I, if not a specialist, immediately became discouraged - no matter what you do, what machine guns you don’t put, fragments will fly in anyway and riddle up a wonderful handsome ship. And what to do? request
    1. +2
      6 October 2016 10: 35
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      So what to do?

      Shoot. Nazarius, shoot! Oleg, especially for non-specialists, removed from the game "Forts", "Calms" and "Daggers" ("Redoubt" will be omitted from the experiment for now) and left only ZRAKi. at the same time I forgot to mention that as you put it, "machine guns" quite normally shoot large fragments from anti-ship missiles.
  7. +3
    6 October 2016 08: 10
    You might think 30 mm will turn the rocket into dust

    When "Monsoon" did not even have enough "Os" pair [i] [/ i] [quote] [/ quote]
    But what was the direct missile hit on the Monsoon, at what distance did the rockets explode from the anti-ship missiles and how many fragments fell into the Monsoon? So maybe 30mm. AK-630 would be quite enough. Kaptsov, as always, adjusts the facts for himself, omitting details
  8. 0
    6 October 2016 08: 10
    It is a pity then, in the Gulf, the Phalanx did not fall into the container with the Tomahawks am Would be a nice fireman
  9. +16
    6 October 2016 08: 13
    Repeatedly participated in such firing. Oleg writes the truth: everything happened. But safety measures have always been observed: at the anti-ship missile target, the altitude guidance channel was disabled (it could not dive at the target), the altimeter - at 50m, firing with the parameter was when the anti-ship missile went aft (not the bow! of the ship, so as not to "run over"). But, I repeat: everything happened ...
    And then, the commander always had a reserve of power to sharply increase the course to SPH!
    Well, ah about the vitality of our RCC, especially P-120, can be talked for hours.
    There was even such a case. ZUR hits from above, P-120 burns, falls, ricochets from the water and again, BURNING (!) Flies to the KUG warrant ... And how many episodes there were when a burning target exceeded the ship line and fell from the opposite side!
    So, an attacking anti-ship missile ship, unambiguously, needs to be thrown into the sea with an anti-aircraft missile system, as is done on the Calm. "Falcon Strike", when two tons of iron dive into the attacking missile defense system from above - not a single aircraft will withstand! On that, in fact, we stand.
    Yours faithfully, hi
  10. 0
    6 October 2016 08: 36
    Here is this article Kaptsova plus. But the plus is for the raised topic! Because the scribbling about praising and not praising "Phalanx" occurs in the same Kaptsov style, summing up the facts for the desired result. Why are conclusions about the weakness of artillery systems given precisely on the basis of the American cannon? Why is there no comparative data on ammunition with the domestic AK-630? Why is everything so one-sided, Oleg? How many arrows have already flown at you not for the topics raised, but precisely for the way of bringing information. No objectivity, no variability due to possible other solutions to the problem! The right example - the right result - the right conclusion ... negative
    Why, for example, not describe the installation in a pair of our same Ak-630 on the same "Moscow"? Maybe the designers have foreseen such that the debris of the rocket can fly to the ship and solved the problem in this way. All the same, two "metal cutters" will be more effective than one? But this is not even considered. Here is the example of the Americans and here is the conclusion. Everything, the curtain ... request
    As Alex_59 said, it is not a fact that the missiles of the Fort complex are incapable of stopping an anti-ship missile system in comparison with the same Wasp, it is not a fact that larger-caliber artillery will not stop the same anti-missile system. It's just that your examples are one-sided and not objective. This, of course, is my personal opinion ...
    The topic raised by the author is urgent. Personally, I believe that in order to really find out the capabilities of a ship's air defense and missile defense, it is necessary to conduct tests not in range conditions, but in almost real combat conditions. To do this, it is necessary to build life-size test benches, on which real combat missiles will be sent and from which (albeit remotely) to fire both artillery and anti-aircraft missile systems. They will say that it is expensive, but effective and will make it possible to realistically assess the capabilities of missiles and artillery systems. Then there will be no examples of "Monsoon" ...
    For the topic being raised, plus an article, but it’s not personal from me lol for the same lame evidence base feel
    hi
    1. +1
      6 October 2016 09: 40
      Take an interest in the place of "work" of Mr. Kaptsov. Everything is in the public domain. Get answers to all your questions at once.
      ps Freedom of speech in action, you know ...
  11. +3
    6 October 2016 09: 20
    Throughout the article, the words "but if the ship were armored" shine through?
    Oleg, if the boat had been armored and carried Osa, Malachite, artillery, an electronic warfare complex, it would not have been a boat. And perhaps, this armor would save from fragments and fragments of subsonic anti-ship missiles. But do not forget, each ship has its own rocket. Supersonic missiles with an armored high-explosive cumulative warhead would be aimed at armored ships. And you can’t get such a nonsense off course, except for the impact of the electronic warfare complex.
    You don’t understand one thing, armadillos will begin to build - there will be means for their destruction. And the cost of the former will be orders of magnitude higher than the cost of the latter.
  12. +1
    6 October 2016 09: 37
    Kaptsov is "brilliant" as always! American technology is unambiguously superior in ALL indicators, any non-American one. And incidents in the US Army are mild and rare. Not like non-Americans. In one word, "exceptional"!
  13. +2
    6 October 2016 10: 11
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    1. Her gos will not see anything against the background of water

    The KAA Boa answered you even before you wrote this nonsense: RCC, definitely, need to bring missiles into the sea, how is it done on "Calm" I’ll add from myself that the problem of target selection against the underlying surface was solved as early as the 60 years. For both semi-active and active guidance systems.
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    4. There are no long-distance approaches, everything takes time (reaction time of the complex + response time of the shift on duty + other possible delays) when the distance is 30 km, and the speed can be sound

    I really counted for you how many missiles the S-300 will have time to throw, taking into account the reaction time and the dead zone closer than 5 km from the air defense missile system for quite real Harpoons. For the US Navy, the situation is, of course, many times sadder, SM-2 in case of protection from the supersonic Onyx, but these are the problems of the Americans.
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    will create for it do not worry

    Yes, they can, this is already out of tactics and battle organization. For the anti-ship missiles to make a maneuver with approaching the target from the side, it is necessary to come closer to the attacked object, since a non-direct path reduces the start-up distance (RCC restriction on fuel). If the object allows such a rapprochement, it can receive an attack from different directions. If it remains at the maximum firing range of the enemy, then it is already more difficult. I speak a question of tactics.
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    As you yourself wrote in comments about the Falkland war: Estimated performance characteristics and practice are two different things.

    TTX here with? I talked about tactical standards. Ask the gunners about the consumption of shells to destroy the enemy’s battery. Attire of forces and means. These standards are written in blood. They are ideal, and ideal is not attainable, but we must strive for it. With regard to naval combat, if the destruction of the 1164 RKR requires at least 30 Rocket Harpoon, then, as you might imagine, firing a single missile is highly likely to fail. And volley fire from 40 anti-ship missiles - with a high probability will reach the goal. The attacker's task is to convey such missiles to the 30 launch line and launch them. Why 30? And because 20 shoots on a sub-flight of C-300, another 5-6 shoots the Ak-630, and for guaranteed killing of such a PKP, at least 3-4 hits are necessary. So much for the norm 20 + 6 + 4 = 30. This is all conditional, of course, I can’t know the real numbers - it is necessary to read the American charter. A standard is the worst-case scenario of an attack with minimal effort and money. What about practice? Well, for example, the practice may be that if, at the time of the attack on the RRC, the radar is turned off due to the prevention of electrical equipment, then without any standards a salvo from a pair of Harpoons is enough.
    1. 0
      12 October 2016 19: 27
      American charter for harpoons: 1 rocket for the first 300 feet of KVL + 1 rocket for every next 100 feet of ship length. The amount of missiles is multiplied by the air defense, electronic warfare coefficients, security order, ship survivability, etc.
  14. +3
    6 October 2016 12: 45
    But the victory did not have time to celebrate. As if according to the plot of the movie about the terminator, the burnt pieces of the drone ricocheted from the water and in a second DROUGHT INTO THE EXTENSION OF THE FRIGATE. Spilled fuel caused a fire in the compartment of computing equipment, one seaman was the victim of the incident.

    Despite any lack of warhead and the miniature of the drone itself (starting weight - 250 kg), the frigate was disabled.

    It is not difficult to imagine what will happen to any modern frigate at a meeting with a bunch of “Onyxes” and “Caliber”. Even if he manages to intercept them all, the wreckage of the downed rockets is guaranteed to cripple the ship.

    There is one small difference between the training target and the combat missile - the very presence of warheads, in the case of detonation of which no one is flying anywhere.

    And the described case of hitting a target with debris of a target is just a clear example of what was said back in the 80s: in the effective fire zone of the ZAK with a caliber of less than 40 mm (that is, all ZAK, except for the "dardo"), the only way to reliably shoot down anti-ship missiles and to exclude it from entering the ship is to undermine the anti-ship missile warhead. In any other case, anti-ship missiles or its debris fly into the ship. That is why the main projectile of the same R2D2 is a subcaliber, designed to penetrate the warhead hull.
  15. +1
    6 October 2016 12: 52
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

    will create for it do not worry

    it's like an option

    super. those. the attack group has AWACS, and the attacked ship does not. somehow very spherical and vacuum turns out. could it be worth leveling the odds? add to the defensive AWACS, add escort ships with air defense systems, add air cover?
    1. +1
      6 October 2016 15: 09
      Quote: DrVintorez
      super. those. the attack group has AWACS, and the attacked ship does not. somehow very spherical and vacuum turns out.

      Spherical and in vacuum - This is just when the defender has AWACS and air cover. smile
      For in the role of a defender - our Navy, which does not have AWACS, and the aircraft operates from the shore, and at the same time covers the base, ships at sea and fights off the tasks of the land explorers, to whom it is operatively subordinated. So the maximum that you can count on is 2-4 Su-27 or 30 class aircraft.

      Actually, it was precisely to exclude the above picture of "playing with one goal" that our fleet constantly demanded AV - in order to have a mobile airfield with its fighters and AWACS next to it. And not to sit blind, seeing everything only within the radio horizon and waiting for air reinforcements to come from the shore.
      1. 0
        6 October 2016 15: 29
        Quote: Alexey RA
        For in the role of a defender - our Navy

        God forbid, because in this situation nuclear weapons will most likely be used, and this is a completely different song.
      2. 0
        29 November 2016 01: 15
        We didn’t hear about helicopter radar patrols?
        But what about the escort? Or is it also not in principle?
        And finally - since the fleet is coastal, support from land is not only "eyes" ...
        Do you like the one-goal game. And in the leadership of the fleet, naturally ignoramuses, but mediocrity, you, smart - not a couple.
  16. 0
    6 October 2016 13: 49
    Neither the 20 mm nor the 30 mm gun solves the debris problem. Therefore, 20 mm has an advantage in servo speed, weight and size characteristics and the initial velocity of the projectile, i.e. is a more effective solution, both for ships, and, especially, for aviation.
    1. 0
      6 October 2016 15: 22
      Quote: iouris
      Therefore, 20 mm has an advantage in servo speed, weight and size characteristics and the initial velocity of the projectile, i.e. is a more effective solution, both for ships, and, especially, for aviation.


      the speed of the phalanx drive has an advantage; the overall dimensions are approximately equal (if we take the gun mount itself and the radar), although if we are talking about the ship, then 1-2 tons does not play a critical role; according to the initial velocity of the projectile, the source data diverge, but it seems like the phalanx has an advantage.

      BUT! effective firing range 30mm more than 20mm. and, most importantly, the POWER of the projectile at 30 mm is much higher.

      Only "bourgeois" left 20mm on the planes.
      PS. by the way! the block of barrels of the "volcano" spins up in 0,8 seconds, if my memory serves me right. on land and at sea it may not be so critical, but in an air battle it can turn out very badly.
      1. 0
        6 October 2016 20: 13
        Quote: DrVintorez

        PS. by the way! the block of barrels of the "volcano" spins up in 0,8 seconds, if my memory serves me right. on land and at sea it may not be so critical, but in an air battle it can turn out very badly.


        0.3 seconds - time for the promotion of trunks.
        The initial delay is taken into account when designating and operating the drives.
        1. 0
          7 October 2016 17: 46
          Quote: mav1971
          0.3 seconds - time for the promotion of trunks.

          rummaged, looked for numbers. 0,3 is the output for maximum rate of fire. but where I read about the time of promotion - I can’t remember. I will find - I will unsubscribe.
  17. 0
    6 October 2016 14: 22
    Quote: letinant
    The real picture seems to me like this: the target was struck at a distance of more than 500 meters, something fell off from it, but it continued to fly and hit the ship or shot it down from meters from 50 to 150, here debris and unburned fuel came in handy.

    What difference does it make to you that after destroying a target it crashes into a ship. Harpoon flies at a speed of more than 900 km per hour, Tomahawk - 880 km per hour. Naturally, a damaged, but not exploded, rocket flies further and even if their speed decreases slightly, then a swarm of these fragments can with high probability damage some parts of the warship, and not the exploding ammunition may well explode. By the way, this is a common story among pilots when a pursuer destroys a target and immediately falls into a cloud of fragments and burning fuel and ammunition. The only salvation, after a shot, do a special maneuver so as not to disappear with the enemy.
    But the ship will stay afloat. The remaining combat units will fight, despite some losses. It has always been so, because the ship is a very large target, has waterproof partitions, which increases its survivability. Therefore, fragments of missiles can not sink a ship or completely disable it.
    1. 0
      6 October 2016 20: 26
      Quote: Алексей_К
      Therefore, fragments of missiles can not sink a ship or completely disable it.


      They can also disable.
      The same Tika, due to the location of its central BIP - "dies from one pill."
      Rather, it can die.
      And not one alone.
    2. 0
      30 November 2016 15: 04
      as much as they can - damage to the boiler and turbine compartment deprives the ship of progress, at best. At worst, a series of explosions and fire. And there is also a generator compartment, without electric power - this is not a combat ship, but a life raft. You don't have to talk about the storage of ammunition and fuel, just one small "tablet" is enough. And, of course, CIUS, Altsheimer's disease on a ship-wide scale, is no less ominous than for an individual.
  18. +1
    6 October 2016 14: 31
    Quote: Alex_59
    With regard to naval combat, if the destruction of the 1164 RKR requires at least 30 Rocket Harpoon, then, as you might imagine, firing a single missile is highly likely to fail.

    You're wrong. Now, harpoon-type missiles are flying at a target at a certain point, for example, in a kruyt-camera, modern in an artillery cellar, where ammunition (shells or missiles) is stored. The second point is the fuel tanks (the place where the solarium is stored). The third point on ships with a nuclear power plant is a nuclear reactor. These coordinates of the target are laid in modern missiles and if they fly in a flock, then they themselves agree who gets to where.
    1. +1
      6 October 2016 15: 22
      Quote: Алексей_К
      Harpoon-type missiles are now flying at a certain point

      They fly into the commander’s eye on the bridge. Preferably on the right. smile
  19. 0
    6 October 2016 15: 19
    Quote: Алексей_К
    These coordinates of the target are laid in modern missiles and if they fly in a flock, then they themselves agree who gets to where.

    Plus for the joke! And for the conclusion following the discussion of the next "kaptsovshchina".
  20. 0
    6 October 2016 16: 01
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    DrVintorez Today, 08:20 ↑ New
    It is a pity that the author is fundamentally not friendly with numbers, juggles (or makes mistakes unintentionally) facts and is prone to demagogy. Nothing personal, just facts, dear.
    Question: why on board anteevs is there such a number of granites, no more no less?
    The chances of 30 mm effectively defeating RCC are higher than those of 20 mm. At least because of the effective shooting range. The difference is not great, but if we talk about fragments of the affected RCC, then even 10 meters can play a role.
    Mounting in one radar unit and a multi-barreled rapid-firing gun has its advantages, but also has its drawbacks: the impact of recoil on the electronics, at least.
    Wasps, as you yourself write (!!!) exploded next to the rocket, that is, non-contact. How many fragments hit the "product", what was the mass of the fragments? In the case of artillery systems, the probability of a direct hit can destroy / damage the anti-ship missile. And 20/30 mm is more significant than a fragment of a relatively light rocket. Again, 30 mm is preferable. It's a shame the 630 isn't American, is it?
    Well, as always, you forgot about plo, drloiu, rab and so on.
    DrVintorez

    0
    SWEET_SIXTEEN Today, 08:40 ↑ New
    Quote: DrVintorez
    preferably 30 mm. Too bad 630 is not American, is it?
    Well, as always, you forgot about plo, drloiu, rab and so on.

    Does this all give a 100% guarantee?
    Quote: DrVintorez
    The chances of 30 mm to effectively hit RCC are higher than that of 20mm. At least because of the effective range of shooting. The difference is not great

    If the difference in your words is small, then what is the dispute

    There is no fundamental difference. The Americans in the years of WWII did not have enough 40 mm Bofors
    Quote: DrVintorez
    Wasps, as you write yourself (!!!) exploded next to the rocket, that is, non-contact

    This is how any missiles and air-to-air missiles work.

    In addition to special missile defense systems, where kinetic interception is necessary (a direct hit on target)
    Quote: DrVintorez
    Too bad 630 is not American, is it?

    On domestic dirks and broadswords guns and radar - a single candy bar



    Your dispute was not correct in 2003 on board with Putin and Kvasnevsky on Ustinov. A training product was launched from Peter did not shoot down; 2 wasps did not shoot down although one hit the target in total; thanks, the BC-2 630 finished. Although 2 presidents were on board, the academic product did not fly far and the right side 630 finished off
  21. 0
    6 October 2016 17: 44
    250 kg))))))), and if it is a seven-ton "Granite"?)
  22. 0
    6 October 2016 18: 33
    And if you shy away from a kiloton? Indeed, for defensive purposes !!!
  23. 0
    7 October 2016 12: 41
    to shoot down anti-ship missiles at distant frontiers - the proposal is good, but not real. Given that the Earth is round, and modern DSPs fly low above the water, they are detected at the last minute, at distances of 10-20 miles from the ship. Where all hope is only on melee weapons. Which can not do anything: the kinetic energy of transonic objects that have mass with a car is too high;


    Why is this? SM-6 are capable of intercepting over-the-horizon low-altitude targets.
  24. 0
    11 October 2016 02: 02
    Quote: Alex_59
    With a probability of defeat of 0,75, this gives a potential of 20 intercepted Harpoons.

    Ghm ... And I would, with your permission, dear Alex_59, the sturgeon would be slightly cut. If recently they have not come up with anything supernova in the sense of the GOS, then it is unlikely that the "Fort" will take the "Harpoon" with a probability greater than 0,3 - 0,4, and when working on each target with a two-rocket salvo. And in the conditions of the enemy's use of electronic warfare means, this probability will be even less.
  25. 0
    12 October 2016 07: 17
    again about the battleships but the view from the side.
  26. 0
    1 January 2017 06: 27
    Kaptsov? Like he is. But if there was armor everything would be fine.
  27. 0
    8 March 2017 14: 58
    Of course, armor will remove all problems! Starting with longboats everything needs to be reserved!

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