The catastrophe of the Red Army near Vyazma and Bryansk

391
Battle of Vyazma

The German offensive on Moscow began on September 30, 1941 with a strike from the right wing of Army Group Center (2nd tank Guderian group and Weichs 2nd Field Army) on the left flank of the Bryansk Front. The main forces of Army Group Center went on the offensive on October 2, attacking the troops of the Western and Reserve Fronts. The battle for Moscow has begun.



Violent battles flared up on the distant approaches to the Soviet capital. Soviet soldiers fought bravely. However, great superiority in the direction of the main attacks, especially in armored vehicles, allowed the Germans to break through the Soviet defenses and immediately achieve major successes. For example, the German 9 Army and 3 Tank Group had 3 tank, 2 motorized and 18 infantry divisions. The operational construction was in one echelon, which made it possible to achieve a high density of troops - one division per 3,2 km. The German 4 Army and 4 Tank Group had 5 Tank, 2 Motorized and 15 Infantry Divisions. Operational construction - in two echelons. All tank and motorized divisions, 56 infantry divisions were concentrated in the direction of the main strike with a width of 10 km, which allowed us to achieve a high density of troops in this direction - one division per 3,3 km. For comparison, the operational density of the troops of the first echelon of the Western Front was: for one division - 15 km; the operational density of the troops of the Reserve Front was: per one rifle division - 11,2 km of front. In addition, the defense of the Soviet troops on both fronts was mainly focal, was shallow (15 — 20 km) and poorly trained in engineering. The army needed to be replenished, there was a lack of ammunition. Not surprisingly, the Germans quickly broke through.

As a result, the 3rd tank group of Gotha, advancing from the Dukhovshchina region, wedged into the location of Soviet troops at the junction of the 19th and 30th armies and quickly moved forward. Operating from the area of ​​Roslavl, the 4th Göpner Panzer Group broke through on the left flank of the 43rd Army. On other sections of the Western and Reserve Fronts, enemy attacks were repelled. Thus, on the first day of the operation, the enemy managed to break through the defenses of Soviet troops in the Dukhovshchinsky and Roslavl directions and wedge to a depth of 15 to 30 km. By the end of the day, the divisions of the 4th Panzer Group had already struck the second echelon of the Reserve Front - the 33rd Army. German aviation inflicted two air strikes on the headquarters of the Western Front, which led to a partial loss of command and control.

October 3 1941, the depth of advance of the German troops in the Western Front was up to 50 km, Reserve - up to 80 km. The commanders of the Western and Reserve fronts, in order to restore the situation in the breakthrough sectors, brought their reserves into battle, which, with the support of the existing air forces, tried to stop the enemy. Thus, the command of the Western Front to eliminate the enemy’s breakthrough in the 30 Army zone created an operational group of I. V. Boldin, which included the reserves of the front (152-I Rifle Division, 101-I Motorized Rifle Division, 126-I, 128- I, 143-I and 147-I tank brigades, 10-y GMP.

During October 3-4 fierce battles were fought. Task Force Lieutenant General Boldin repelled several enemy attacks. The fighters and commanders of the Boldin group showed the highest stamina and heroism. So, the 101-th Infantry Division and the 128-I tank tank brigade, despite the great advantage of the enemy, defended the town of Kholm-Zhirkovsky (60 km north-west of Vyazma). In the course of stubborn fighting, Kholm-Zhirkovsky twice passed from hand to hand. For more than a day, Soviet fighters held out near Kholm-Zhirkovsky. They knocked down and burned 59 German tanks, destroyed a lot of guns and machine guns.

However, despite all the efforts of the command and troops of the Western and Reserve fronts, it was not possible to restore the situation in the breakthrough sectors. The troops of the 30, 19, and 43 armies, who were threatened with deep flanking and encirclement, had to retreat to new positions. October 4 The 4-I tank group, continuing to develop success, captured the cities of Spask-Demensk and Kirov. October 5 the Germans captured Yukhnov and Mosalsk. “Operation Typhoon develops almost classically,” wrote the Wehrmacht Chief of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht Land Forces, October 9, in his diary, Franz Halder. “... The enemy continues to hold unattacked sectors of the front everywhere, as a result of which, in perspective, a deep environment of these enemy groups is planned.”

The catastrophe of the Red Army near Vyazma and Bryansk

German tanks near Rzhev, 1941 year

Thus, the German troops broke through at the junction of the Western and Reserve fronts in the direction of Yukhnovo and deeply penetrated into the location of our troops in the center of the Western Front. The flanks of the main forces of the Western Front were captured by the enemy and our troops fought in a semi-circle environment. The commanders of the Western Front decided to withdraw their troops to the Vyazma frontier in order to organize stubborn defense on it. The stakes approved this decision, transferring the 31 and 32 of the Reserve Front Army to the Western Front.

The Commander of the Reserve Front Budyonny on October 5 reported to Bid: “... The situation on the left flank of the Reserve Front has been created extremely serious. The resulting break along the Moscow Highway has nothing to close ... The front cannot, with its own forces, delay the enemy's offensive in the directions of Spask-Demensk, Vstroky, Vyazma, Yukhnov and Medyn. ” The commander asked to strengthen the air strikes against the enemy’s mobile units that had broken through and to push forward the High Command reserves to the direction of the breakthrough.

October 5 The headquarters allowed the Reserve Front to withdraw to the Vederniki line (25 km east of Vyazma) - Mosalsk - Zhizdra. The withdrawal of the Western and Reserve Fronts was scheduled to begin on the night of October 6. Covering the withdrawal of the main forces should have been the forces of the 31 Army and the Boldin group. During the withdrawal to the new line of defense, the troops of the Western Front were to make a partial regrouping: the 30 Army transferred its section of the 31 Army, the army command was transferred to the front reserve; The 16 Army transferred its units to the 20 Army, the army was assigned to the Vyazma region to unite all the troops fighting in the region and to organize defense in the Vyazma fortified area. However, the headquarters of the Reserve Front lost contact with their armies and could not organize a planned withdrawal of troops to a new line of defense. The control of the troops of the Western Front was also violated, which created extreme difficulties in organizing the withdrawal.

During 6 - 7 of October, the troops of the Western and Reserve fronts by separate groups resisted in the areas of Vyazma-Gzhatsk-Sychevka and at Sukhinichi. The 22 and 29 armies retreated in the direction of Rzhev and Staritsa; The 49 and 43 armies to Kaluga and Medyn. Some units were surrounded and fought at the previously occupied frontiers. The units of the 31 Army and the Boldin Task Force, which covered the withdrawal of the main forces, were drawn into protracted battles with the opposing enemy and lost contact with the rest of the armies and front headquarters. Therefore, from October 8, the withdrawal of troops from the Western Front was supposed to cover the 32 Army of Vishnevsky. Commander Vishnevsky was supposed to unite the retreating troops and bring them to the line of Novo-Dugino - Veshki (30 km southeast of Vyazma) and organize a solid defense.

However, in the conditions of the collapse of the defense, poor communication and the rapid advance of the mobile German units, this was not possible. October 8 motorized corps 3 th and 4 th German tank groups, went to the rear of the Vyazma group of Soviet troops, cut off the withdrawal path of the troops 19 th, 20 th, 24 th and 32 th armies. Soon the units of the 4 and 9 of the German field armies approached and sealed the encirclement ring. Was formed Vyazemsky "boiler". The remaining armies of the Western and Reserve fronts, covered from the flanks by the German armored units of the 3 and 4-th tank groups and pulled from the front by the troops of the 4 and 9-th field armies, with heavy fighting retreated to the Volga, in the south-west of Kalinin , on Mozhaisk line of defense.

The crisis situation arose already to the west of Moscow. On October 5, the air reconnaissance reported that enemy tanks and motorized infantry were already in 15-20 km from Yukhnov. The position of the troops of the Western and Reserve fronts at this time for the General Staff and Headquarters remained vague. The command of the Moscow Military District was ordered to hold the enemy at the turn of the Mozhaisk line for 5-7 days until the reserves of the Stakes were suitable. On the same day, the Germans occupied Yukhnov, and the scattered units of the Reserve Front rolled back to Maloyaroslavets. The Western and Reserve fronts had no reserves for the restoration of the front. It seemed that the road to Moscow was open.


The Soviet medium tank T-34-76 crushed the German field howitzer leFH.18. He could not continue moving and was captured by the Germans. Yukhnov district

Thus, the German troops with powerful blows of tank groups broke through the Soviet defense, quickly developed the offensive and, with the assistance of the army corps in the area west of Vyazma, surrounded the troops of the 16, 19 and 20 armies and the Boldin operational group of the Western Front, 32 and 34-y armies of the Reserve front. Control units of the 19, 20, 24 and 32 armies (control of the 16 army, transferring troops to the 19 army, managed to get out of the encirclement), 19 rifle divisions, 4 tank brigades were in the entourage. There was a threat of a breakthrough of the German troops to Moscow along the Minsk highway through Mozhaisk and along the Warsaw highway through Maloyaroslavets.

However, even in the terrible conditions of the environment, the Soviet soldiers did not lay down weapons and continued weekly resistance. Soviet troops bound the enemy's 28 divisions. They gave Moscow a week to organize a new defense. Until October 11, surrounded troops attempted to break through, only October 12 managed to briefly break through the German ring, which was soon closed again. Thus, part of the troops and the control of the 20-th Army Ershakov came out of the encirclement.

By the decision of the Stavka, the command of the surrounded units north of Vyazma was entrusted to the commander of the 19 Army, Lieutenant General Lukin. When leaving the 14 environment in October 1941, commander M. F. Lukin was seriously wounded and unconsciously captured. In captivity, his leg was amputated (released 1945 in May). The remnants of the 32 Army of October 12 left the encirclement, and Major General Vishnevsky was sent to the post of commander of the 19 Army encircled, but did not take office - could not get to her command and October 22 was sick (with frostbite kicked) captured. He was held captive until victory in 1945. The commander of the 24 Army, Konstantin Ivanovich Rakutin, died while trying to withdraw his troops from the 7 environs of October 1941.

In his memoirs, G. K. Zhukov noted: “Thanks to the persistence and perseverance that our troops showed, fighting in the environs in the Vyazma region, we won precious time for organizing defense on the Mozhaysk line. The blood and casualties suffered by the troops of the encircled grouping were not in vain. ”

October 10 troops of the Western and Reserve fronts, not included in the environment, were merged into one Western Front. The Army Commander Georgy Zhukov was appointed commander of the Western Front, and I. S. Konev became his deputy. Lieutenant General V. D. Sokolovsky was appointed Chief of Staff. In essence, a new defensive front was created.

As a result of the Vyazma operation, the Wehrmacht broke through the front of the Red Army for the entire operational depth and, surrounding and destroying part of the forces of the Western and Reserve Fronts, German troops reached the Mozhaisk line of defense of Moscow, creating conditions for a further attack on Moscow.



Oryol-Bryansk operation

The situation in the Bryansk area did not develop any better. On the very first day of the offensive, the 2-I tank group of Guderian, with the support of aviation, broke through the weak defense of Gorodnyansky's 13 Army and rushed towards Sevsk and Komarichi (40 km northeast of Sevsk). October 1 was broken through and the defense of Petrov's 50 Army. The headquarters demanded to destroy the broken through enemy and restore the situation. However, all attempts of the Soviet troops to reject the enemy were not crowned with success. As a result, an extremely dangerous situation has developed on both flanks of the Bryansk Front. The situation was especially difficult in the 13-th army band, where Guderian’s tanks were rushing forward. The front had no reserves and the threat of an enemy breakthrough to Orel and Bryansk arose.

The troops of the task force under the command of A. N. Yermakov, who were assigned the task of launching a counterstrike against the broken mobile units of the enemy, were themselves forced to repel numerous attacks by the German 48 motorized corps. 2-I Guderian tank group to the end of 2 October reached the distant approaches to the Eagle. October 3 Germans entered the Eagle.


Trapped and abandoned Soviet tank KV-1 on the street of a village in the Orel region

The headquarters took emergency measures to assist the Bryansk Front. On October 1, the 49 Army of the Reserve Front was ordered to advance to the Oryol-Tula sector. To cover the same direction in the area of ​​Orel - Mtsensk, they decided to deploy the emerging 1 th Guards Rifle Corps of General D. D. Lelyushenko (4-I and 11-I tank brigades, 6-I Guards Rifle Division, 34-I regiment of internal troops, Guards mortar division - "Katyusha"). Stalin set Lelyushenko to stop the troops of Guderian. Lelyushenko realized that for the 1-2 of the day allotted by the Stake for the nomination of the corps he simply would not have time to organize the defense of the Eagle. General Lelushenko decides to leave the Eagle without a fight and organize the defense south of Mtsensk by the forces of the 36 Motorcycle Regiment, which is in reserve and the Tula Artillery School. Stalin approved this decision. An aviation group was also created as part of the 5 aviation divisions, which was tasked with bombing a German armored group that had broken through to the rear of the Bryansk Front. Soon, the Stavka also sent the 5 airborne corps to the Oryol area, in the Mtsensk area.

However, events developed so quickly that most of the decisions simply did not have time to perform. October 3 around 10 o'clock in the morning Guderian approached the southern outskirts of Orel. In order to gain time for the organization of defense near Mtsensk, the landing of the 201 airborne brigade (around 500 fighters) was landed at the airfield of Orel. On October 3, a total of 1358 people were transferred to the Orel region. There were practically no troops in Oryol itself - the KGB officers from the 146 local separate convoy battalion of the NKVD internal troops under the command of Captain A. A. Lobachev took the battle with the Germans. As a result, the Germans could not immediately take the Eagle from the south-west direction and entered it only in the evening, beating around the other side. The resistance of the paratroopers and security officers in Orel allowed Lelyushenko to organize defense on the outskirts of Mtsensk.

In the 50 Army band on the same day, the Germans eased some pressure from the front to bypass Soviet troops from the north in the direction of Zhizdra. The army headquarters, which was attacked by enemy aircraft, lost contact with the front command and could not inform the front headquarters about the situation on the right flank of the Bryansk Front, where a dangerous situation developed as a result of the German tanks breaking through in the 43 Army of the reserve front. To cover the joint of the Reserve and Bryansk fronts. The October 3 headquarters changed the task of the 49 army. Instead of the Oryol-Kursk direction, she was ordered to take the Sukhinichi-Belev line, where her units had already left.

On October 5, the commander-in-chief Eremenko appealed to GHQ for permission to take the 50 army to the second line of defense west of Bryansk, the 3 army to the Desna line and the 13 army to the Kokorevka line (20 km west of Lokot) - Dmitriyev-Lgovsky. The headquarters approved the decision of the front, pointing to the need to keep Bryansk and Karachev.


German troops enter the Eagle

The 24 units of the Guderian 2 Tank Army's motorized corps (from October 5) continued to burst along the Orel – Tula highway. The Germans believed that the road to Moscow was open, there were no more serious Soviet forces ahead. However, near the city of Mtsensk, Guderian’s tanks were closed by Soviet tanks. There were not many of them - the advanced units of the 1-th Guards Rifle Corps - 4-I and 11-I tank brigades. Short but strong counterattacks of the shock group of the 4-th tank brigade of Colonel M.E. Katukov suspended the victorious march of German tanks. Our troops with ambush actions inflicted powerful fire strikes on the enemy's mechanized columns, forcing them to first stop and then turn into battle formations.

Thus, information was kept about the operation of one of our tank crews. Lieutenant Kukarin’s thirty-four enemy fire was hit. Gunner I. T. Lyubushkin was wounded, clothing caught fire on Lieutenant Kukarin, tank mechanic Fedorov was also wounded and stunned, gunner-gunner Duvanov was wounded in the leg, but the crew continued the battle, and set fire to five enemy tanks. In total, in this battle, the crew of the combat vehicle killed nine enemy tanks. About the feat of the tankman told the front leaflet "Tank duel": "The tank of senior sergeant I. T. Lyubushkina from the first minutes of the battle was hit by an enemy projectile and could not move. But he took the fight and began shelling enemy tanks. An extraordinary tank duel broke out on a wide field. At a distance of 1300 meters, a courageous commander shot five enemy vehicles one after the other. But the German heavy tank driver came to the rescue and hit the Lyubushkin car. He wounded the crew and interrupted the speed switch-on mechanism; the driver of the tank immediately began repairing it. After some time, the car had the opportunity to back up, and the tank Lyubushkina managed to connect with its column. "

By decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR 10 of October 1941, "for exemplary performance of combat missions of the command on the front of the fight against the German fascist aggressors and for showing courage and heroism" senior sergeant Lyubushkin Ivan Timofeevich was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union. The hero was just 23.


Hero of the Soviet Union I. T. Lyubushkin

Our tankers were actively supported by aviation and "Katyushas" (rocket artillery), which increased the effectiveness of tank counterattacks. Not having a clear idea of ​​the Soviet forces and suffering losses, the Germans turned some of the forces back and began flanking roundabout maneuvers with others. October 10 our tank group was surrounded. On October 11, the brigade secretly left the encirclement to join the 26 Army units through the railway bridge across the Zusha River north of Mtsensk. Until October 16, the brigade was in the army reserve.

As a result of the action of the 1 units of the Guards Rifle Corps, the 4 and 11 tank brigades braked the enemy's advance in this sector for 7 days and caused him serious damage in manpower and equipment. According to Soviet data, parts of the 4 tank tank brigade destroyed 133 tanks, 49 guns, 6 mortars, 8 airplanes, 15 tractors with ammunition and up to an infantry regiment. The brigade’s own losses were 23 tanks, 24 vehicles, 555 people killed, wounded and missing. German 4-I tank division was greatly weakened.

General D. D. Lelushenko wrote in his memoirs: “For nine days, the soldiers of the 1 Special Guards Rifle Corps fought on the fields of the Orlov region. Four times they changed the line, leading a mobile defense, exhausting the enemy in fierce battles. On the fifth frontier on the River Zusha, they stopped the enemy and held their positions until October 24. ”

As Guderian himself noted: “To the south of Mtsensk, the 4-I tank division was attacked by Russian tanks, and it had to endure a difficult moment. For the first time, the superiority of the Russian T-34 tanks was manifested in a sharp form. The division suffered significant losses. The planned rapid attack on Tula had to be postponed for the time being. ... Especially disappointing were the reports we received about the actions of Russian tanks, and most importantly, about their new tactics. ... Russian infantry attacked from the front, and the tanks inflicted massive strikes on our flanks. They have already learned something. ” Guderian acknowledged that "the prospects for quick and continuous success have disappeared."

The report of the commander of the 4 Tank Division of Langerman from 22 in October 1941 noted that "for the first time during the Eastern campaign, the absolute superiority of Russian 26-ton and 52-ton tanks over our Pz.III and Pz.IV was revealed" and as urgent measures It was proposed to "immediately begin its own production of the Russian 26-ton tank."

In November, an investigation commission arrived to investigate the causes of the 24 th motorized corps under Mtsensk, which was tasked with “collecting materials to study Russian tanks and design new German tanks and more powerful anti-tank weapons on the basis of this”. The commission, which arrived in the 2 Tank Army, included well-known designers: Professor Porsche (Nibelungen), engineer Oswald (MAN) and Dr. Aders (Henschel). The commission conducted detailed technical studies of heavy tanks KV-1, KV-2 and medium T-34. The results obtained by the commission contributed to the acceleration of the work of German designers on the new medium tank PzKpfw V "Panther".

Delaying the enemy at Mtsensk improved our position in the Tula area. However, the overall situation was still critical. On October 6, Guderian’s tanks, having routed Karachev and Bryansk from the east, captured them, cutting off the withdrawal paths of the Soviet troops. Thus, the troops of the Bryansk Front were divided into two parts, and the withdrawal paths were cut. Part of the front troops was surrounded. On the same day, the Soviet Headquarters issued an order to withdraw the troops of the Bryansk Front to the Mtsensk-Ponyri-Fatezh-Lgov line, the front was supposed to cover the directions to Voronezh and Tambov. Since the Stavka’s communication with the front headquarters and the front was broken, this order did not reach the addressees. Then on October 7 the order was repeated through the commander of the 50 army, Major General Mikhail Petrov. The troops received an order to "make their way east" to the line of Lgov - Ponyri. The commander-in-chief Yeremenko, who was at that time in the location of the 3 Army headquarters, ordered the front troops at nightfall on October 8 to begin withdrawing to the specified line and to carry it out within 5 days. On the night of October 8, the 3, 13, and 50 armies began to make their way eastward, linking the troops of the Guderian and Weihs armies in these battles.

Our troops suffered serious losses in these battles. Among the dead was Mikhail Petrovich, commander of the 50 Army. The commander of the Eremenko 13 of October was seriously injured and evacuated to Moscow by a specially sent plane. By October 23, all three armies, although they had suffered heavy losses, were able to break out of encirclement and occupied defenses on the indicated lines: The 50 Army was entrenched at the Oka River near Beleva, covering the Tula area; 13-I army - at the turn of Fatezh, Makarovka, covering the Kursk direction; 3-I army at the turn of Fatezh, Kromy.

Thus, the German troops broke through the defenses of the Bryansk Front, quickly developed an offensive to the rear of our troops, and were able to surround the main forces of the Soviet armies. However, the Stavka took emergency measures and in the Mtsensk area the Red Army stopped the enemy’s tanks that were rushing to Tula. And surrounded by the main forces of the Bryansk Front found the strength to break out of the "boiler". As a result, the stubborn defense of the troops of the Bryansk Front disrupted the pace of the Wehrmacht offensive in the Oryol-Tula direction and held down large enemy forces during the 17 day. This made it possible to prepare the defense lines in the Tula region and the Mozhaisk line of defense, which ultimately disrupted the plan for deep coverage of Moscow from the rear.

The former commander of the Bryansk front assessed this battle: “As a result of the resistance of the troops of the Bryansk front, which bound the main forces of the 2 tank and 2 of the enemy field armies, the offensive of the enemy forces on Tula was delayed for 17 days. The troops of the Bryansk Front defeated the strike force of the Nazi troops, aimed at Moscow from the south-west (through Bryansk, Orel, Tula). The enemy group had squandered part of their forces to fight with the troops of the front, lost their penetrating power and could not overcome the defenses of the 50 Army that had left for Tula. ”


Soviet tank KV-1 4 of the tank tank brigade, destroyed by 10 of October 1941 of the year by German artillery in Mtsensk

Summary of the first stage of the operation "Typhoon"

Despite the stubborn resistance of the Soviet troops, on the same day the enemy broke through the defenses of three Soviet fronts, and its mobile units advanced 1 — 40 km in the directions of Orel, Yukhnov and Vyazma. Attempts by the fronts to inflict counter-attacks with weak reserves did not produce results. October 50, advanced units of the 3 Tank Group took the 2 th and 3 th armies of the Bryansk Front and retreated into Orel by the end of the day. In the area of ​​Mtsensk, Soviet troops with strong counterattacks were able to stop the movement of Guderian’s tanks to Tula. October 13 main forces of the Bryansk Front were surrounded. However, the encirclement was not tight, our troops were actively making their way, suffered serious losses, but by October 6 could break through and reach a new line of defense.

Having broken through the defenses of the Western and Reserve fronts, the enemy created a dangerous situation in the Vyazma sector. On October 4, the enemy captured Spas-Demensk and Kirov, on October 5, Yukhnov and entered the Vyazma region. In the area of ​​Vyazma, the compounds of the 19, 20, 24 and 32 armies were surrounded. Stubbornly resisting, the encircled troops pinned down significant enemy forces. Part of the forces in mid-October managed to break out of the encirclement.

The unfavorable development of hostilities in the Vyazma and Bryansk region created the threat of an enemy’s exit to Moscow itself. The capital suddenly found itself under the direct blow of the enemy. By the time the enemy troops broke through the Vyazma line throughout the entire space up to the Mozhaisk line there were no intermediate defensive lines or serious forces that could stop the movement of German tank groups. At the beginning of October there was a small number of troops on the Mozhaisk line. They could only resist the advance forces of the enemy, but not the main forces of the tank groups. Under these conditions, the Soviet military-political leadership took emergency measures to strengthen the Mozhaisk line of defense, where troops were urgently sent from the reserve, from the Far East, Central Asia and from other fronts. But they were still at a considerable distance.


German tank PzKpfw.III, shot down by Guderian’s 2 tank group, in a Soviet village

To be continued ...
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  1. +16
    3 October 2016 06: 15
    Guderian admitted that “the prospects for quick and continuous success disappeared”


    It was because of such battles that the BARBAROSS plan cracked at all seams.
    Everything didn’t go according to plan ... the numerous delays in the advancement of German troops are connected precisely with the heroic persistence in these battles of our fathers and grandfathers.

    As a result, this allowed the USSR to impose its will on the fierce enemy of our people.
    1. +10
      3 October 2016 07: 20
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Guderian admitted that “the prospects for quick and continuous success disappeared”

      It was because of such battles that the BARBAROSS plan cracked at all seams.

      So it wasn’t such a disaster? Slaughter, yes. Can't be called a meaningless disaster
      1. +9
        3 October 2016 13: 01
        I wouldn’t call it a slaughter. The most fierce battles. Yes, due to better organization, experience and other reasons, the Germans acted better, faster, and the initiative and numerical superiority were behind them.
        What a "massacre" if there is only a militia regiment near Tula, cadets of an artillery school and anti-aircraft gunners were able to detain the entire armada of Guderian.
        If you want to say that the carnage was mutual, then I agree. Both sides suffered losses and the Germans write about it in their memoirs.
        The blitz krieg was disrupted already on June 22, when instead of the time allotted by the Germans to overcome the resistance of the border guards in 2-3 hours. the border guards resisted for days, and Przemysl was generally repulsed.
        On June 22, Hitler won tactically, but lost strategically.
        He won the battle, but lost the war.
        1. +1
          3 October 2016 13: 56
          Quote: Ulan
          The blitz krieg was disrupted already on June 22, when instead of the time allotted by the Germans to overcome the resistance of the border guards in 2-3 hours. the border guards resisted for days, and Przemysl was generally repulsed.

          Oh, how cheerful. And it's okay that the plan of Barbarossa on July 10-11 was canceled by the German "genius generals" precisely because he allegedly fettered them terribly. And they went with his SIGNIFICANT excess in the pace of the offensive.
          1. +5
            3 October 2016 14: 04
            Of course "nothing". It's not about "cheerfully", but about facts. Or will you dispute the facts about the resistance of the border guards and about Przemysl?
            Yes, I read the enthusiastic cries of the German generals - "it would not be an exaggeration to say that the war in the east was won during ..." and so on.
            Is this about that?
            Or do you think that Germany won the war?
            There are other memories of German generals about the fierce resistance from the Red Army.
            So, not everything is simple and the war in different directions went differently.
            1. +2
              3 October 2016 19: 13
              Quote: Ulan
              Or will you dispute the facts about the resistance of the border guards and Przemysl?

              These are special cases that did not affect the general course of the war.
              Quote: Ulan
              Or do you think that Germany won the war?

              This is an extremely difficult question. Watching from whom.
              In addition, the terms “won” and “won” should be shared.
              1. 0
                7 July 2017 11: 45
                Quote: rjxtufh
                These are special cases that did not affect the general course of the war.

                So who won the victory, did your Germans and other Frenchmen or they broke off their Soviet horns, including in June 41?
                Quote: rjxtufh
                This is an extremely difficult question. Watching from whom.
                In addition, the terms “won” and “won” should be shared.

                Again sophistry, who was tried in Nuremberg? Yours. Change the flag, the last time you had French ...
        2. +2
          6 October 2016 12: 57
          We turn to one of the German sources (Goebbels diary, June-July 1941):
          "160 fully manned divisions. Front line with a length of 3000 km.
          The greatest offensive in world history. We have no choice but to advance. 3.30. The guns rumbled. God bless our weapons! ... The breath of history is heard. (22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX)
          "The military situation in the East is going well beyond all expectations. Our new weapon has a terrifying effect. The Russians leave their bunkers trembling and are unable to testify during interrogation for days on end. Russian planes are falling like flies. Everything is going according to plan and more." (24.06.1941)
          "The enemy is fighting well. The vast expanses of <Russia> can frighten our people." (25.06.1941)
          "The Russians defend themselves bravely. There is no retreat anywhere." (26.06.1941)
          "Eastern Front: Fierce resistance in the South. The enemy is fighting fiercely and well under command." (28.06.1941)
          "The Russians are putting up more stubborn resistance than one might have thought at first. Our losses in men and equipment are not that significant." (01.07.1941)
          "The red regime mobilized the people. In addition, the well-known stubbornness of the Russians is added. Our soldiers have a hard time." (02.07.1941)
          and further exponentially.
    2. +5
      3 October 2016 07: 53
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      It was because of such battles that the BARBAROSS plan cracked at all seams.

      In fact, the operation of the Barbarossa plan was actually canceled by the Germans on July 10-11, 1941. The reason was the German involvement in the Smolensk operation. This was their main mistake on the Eastern Front, which ultimately led to well-known consequences.
      Operation Typhoon is in no way related to Barbarossa's plan.
      1. +6
        3 October 2016 08: 41
        Operation Typhoon is in no way related to Barbarossa's plan.


        However, the Germans had a timetable for the advancement of German troops linked to the onset of winter and the Germans did not prepare stocks of winter clothing and fuel for winter conditions.
        I read the memoirs of German officers of that time ...
        with the onset of cold weather, their idea of ​​war began to change for the worse for them.

        It did not work in three months to break RUSSIA ...
        Do you understand the frosts?
        1. +5
          3 October 2016 08: 54
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          However, the Germans had a timetable for the advancement of German troops linked to the onset of winter and the Germans did not prepare stocks of winter clothing and fuel for winter conditions.

          According to Barbaross’s plan, this was not required. Around September 29.09.41, XNUMX the war was to be ended with the Germans entering the Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk line along the Volga and the North. Dvina.
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          It did not work in three months to break RUSSIA ...
          Do you understand the frosts?

          Not Russia, but the USSR.
          And frosts really prevented.
          Because starting from 11.07.41. until 11.09.41/2/2 the Wehrmacht went into a "gang" state. Those. acted without an operational plan, limiting himself only to directive planning. Then the Germans realized their mistake and tried to rewind everything. But XNUMX months were missed, and these were XNUMX very important months.
          1. +2
            3 October 2016 08: 57
            Not Russia, but the USSR


            For some reason, the Germans in their memoirs often mention RUSSIA, IVANOV ... TIPS, commissars.
            The USSR is rarely mentioned.
            1. +9
              3 October 2016 08: 59
              Quote: The same LYOKHA
              For some reason, the Germans often mention in their memoirs

              These are their problems. We are not Germans. Not all, at least.
          2. +2
            4 October 2016 16: 20
            Around 29.09.41. the war was to be ended with the Germans entering the Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk line along the Volga and the North. Dvina.

            And frosts really prevented.

            Ahaha thanks! Should have defeated 29.09.1941, led the offensive at a faster pace, but frost prevented))))
            But the Soviet army had nothing to do with it)))) Well, you and the artist))))
            Yes, and read about "directive planning" too. This is in case you reproach that "I have not read completely."
        2. +5
          3 October 2016 12: 39
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          However, the Germans had a timetable for the advancement of German troops linked to the onset of winter and the Germans did not prepare stocks of winter clothing and fuel for winter conditions.

          Actually, prepared. And on time - back in the fall.
          But the rear supply of the Germans was built to match the original "Barbarossa", in which the autumn battles near Moscow with the participation of an army group and three tank groups were not provided. This supply collapsed even earlier - for example, in August GA "Sever" was forced to "withdraw from the allowance" its infantry units in order to ensure the supply of 4 TGRs.
          As a result, while ammunition and fuel were still able to be pushed through, winter supplies were stuck in the Great Warsaw traffic jam until January.
          1. +1
            3 October 2016 14: 16
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As a result, while ammunition and fuel were still able to be pushed through, winter supplies were stuck in the Great Warsaw traffic jam until January.

            Blah blah blah.
            The war in the east was supposed to end by the end of September 1941. Therefore, the Germans, of course, ordered warm uniforms for the army. But in small quantities.
            1. +5
              3 October 2016 14: 51
              Quote: rjxtufh
              The war in the east was supposed to end by the end of September 1941. Therefore, the Germans, of course, ordered warm uniforms for the army. But in small quantities.

              Yeah ... and stupid Germans before the winter and waited for the end of the war in September 1941. smile
              The failure of the initial plan of Directive 21 was clear already in August 1941. And the Germans began to prepare for the fall and winter.
              Only on August 30, 1941, the main command of the ground forces seriously took up the issue of supplying large units of ground forces with winter uniforms. On this day, the following entry appeared in the diary: “Due to a change in the situation, it becomes necessary to conduct local operations with limited goals also in winter conditions. The operational management to develop a plan for supplying the troops with the necessary winter uniforms and, after approval by the chief of the general staff of the ground forces, to entrust the organizational management with the necessary measures ”

              The result is well known:
              “Of course, the uniform was sent, but it has not yet reached us. I followed his path. The uniform is currently located at the railway station in Warsaw and has not been sent anywhere for several weeks due to the lack of steam locomotives and the presence of traffic jams on the railways. Our demands in September and October were categorically rejected, and now it is too late to do anything. ”
              © Guderian
        3. +10
          3 October 2016 13: 10
          Stop, stop. What winter clothes is this? The Wehrmacht soldiers did not have an overcoat? Did they only fight in summer uniforms in October?
          An overcoat is enough to fight at temperatures up to -10 degrees. and even more.
          In addition, there was a requisition of warm clothes from the population and warm clothes (sweaters, vests on fur, tank tops, etc.) were sent from Germany. There was a centralized procurement of warm clothes in the occupied territories and on the initiative of the commanders of individual units.
          So talking about the complete absence of warm things is nothing more than a myth, like the myth that frost killed the army of Napoleon.
          Another thing is fuel and engine oils. But until December, this had no effect.
          On the contrary, the German tankers were very pleased that the cold had fettered the autumn thaw and that they had rushed to Moscow on hard ground.
          Rather, the Germans had problems with warm shoes, not warm clothes.
          1. +2
            3 October 2016 17: 08
            An overcoat is enough to fight at temperatures up to -10 degrees. and even more.

            But the thermometer fell to minus 25, and on some days to minus 40.
            There were problems with bowel movements. It was freezing.
            In addition, there was a requisition of warm clothes among the population

            OUR population has already surrendered everything when they gathered a militia. And the population had nothing but woolen shawls that we can see in some photos
            Another thing is fuel and engine oils.

            Synthetic fuel at minus 20 disintegrated into 2 non-combustible fractions
            1. +5
              3 October 2016 17: 50
              I agree. But this is in late November, early December, before that the weather was bearable.
              In addition, the population did not turn in the last for the militia, and the requisitions were taken away completely.
              I am far from saying that frost did not affect the German army, but I think a lot is exaggerated.
              And the Germans and Western historians in this field tried to play down the merits of the Red Army in defeating the Germans near Moscow.
              Yes, the Red Army was better prepared for severe frosts. My father, he fought near Moscow, once in one of the attacks in January 42nd, they could not take the village, the company withdrew, but he and the machine gunner from his company did not have time to leave and lay all night at the outskirts until the next morning the attack did not free the village.
              Frozen of course, but there was no frostbite.
              The alcohol was given and back in operation.
              By the way, he said that alcohol helped, and practically did not get drunk from him.
            2. +3
              4 October 2016 01: 50
              Gun grease froze. And they did not know that there is winter in Russia.

              A well-known dog theme about defecation, how could it be without it.
              take a panther chocolate bar from a shelf.
        4. +3
          3 October 2016 15: 44
          [/ quote] frosts you know prevented.

          Major General Vishnevsky was sent to the post of commander of the encircled 19th Army, but did not take up the post - he could not get to her command and was taken prisoner on October 22 (with frostbitten legs). [quote]

          Our soldiers suffered no less, but did not whine.
          1. +3
            3 October 2016 17: 17
            Our soldiers suffered no less, but did not whine.

            Except for the panic on October 16 in Moscow.
            Ahead, as usual, were senior and middle managers.
            1. +7
              3 October 2016 18: 27
              Quote: Hupfri
              Ahead, as usual, were senior and middle managers.

              Rather than average. There was someone to follow the top link for somebody refused to evacuate and stayed in Moscow.
            2. +4
              5 October 2016 12: 44
              Are your ancestors panicked?
              It is not worth saying that this is not so, because with what knowledge of the matter you relish the drap of people like you.
              The top leadership is in Moscow, May 1945, in Berlin, so why are you all taking some kind of twisted-up sick fantasy here?
  2. +11
    3 October 2016 07: 17
    The article is frankly weak, perhaps even none. Draws on a very short article for primary school children.
    The German offensive on Moscow began on September 30, 1941 with a strike from the right wing of Army Group Center.

    That's right so treacherously attacked the peacefully sleeping front.
    On the far approaches to the Soviet capital, fierce battles broke out. Soviet soldiers fought bravely. However, a great superiority in the direction of the main attacks, especially in armored vehicles, allowed the Germans to break through the Soviet defense and immediately achieve major successes.

    And how many in grams?
    Cons:
    1) there is no analysis of the previous situation, the presence and balance of forces.
    2) there is no analysis of the measures taken by the Soviet command BEFORE the operation. That the attack on Moscow came as a complete surprise? Maybe the bet thought that the enemy would begin to retreat?
    3) the topic of command and control during the operation has not been disclosed. "Measures taken", "partially lost control" and so on.
    Why the front headquarters (!) Could not organize air defense even for themselves, could not establish stable communications with the troops in the third (!) Month of the war, why they were not ready for the offensive, how the reserves were organized remains a mystery. I'm not talking about the analysis of why the defense was organized this way and not otherwise.
    1. Cat
      +9
      3 October 2016 07: 29
      As far as I understand, the volume and format of VO as a journal, and not a scientific work, did not allow the author to reveal the topic. As for the "volumes for the school", God forbid our high school students and the majority of history teachers in such volumes know their history.
      Thanks to the author.
    2. +8
      3 October 2016 10: 01
      In the topic - the author casually mentions the defense of the Eagle ... The fact is that, with the exception of the battle of the paratroopers at the airport, no one else defended the city. Contrary to what the author writes, in the city, apart from the NKVD regiment (and not the battalion), the headquarters of the Oryol military district, a number of rifle and artillery units (some, though under formation) were stationed in the city ... Nobody commanded these troops and did not set a task for them because Commander Orlovsky VO gene. Tyurin, having reported to Moscow about the entry of parts of the Guderian tank group into the city, left Oryol with his headquarters, and simply fled ...
      Tyurin was immediately recalled to Moscow and tried by a military tribunal - for "surrendering the city" he was sentenced to 7 years in prison ...
      In domestic historiography, these events, for obvious reasons, have always been covered very sparingly ...
      1. +3
        3 October 2016 12: 12
        In the memoirs of Guderin's tankmen, it is described that, judging by the fact that no resistance was organized on the approaches to Orel, the Germans "entered" the city, which did not even suspect of anything, trams went around the city, on the streets leading to the station, there were boxes with equipment prepared for evacuation ...
        Those. there was no connection between the units of the Red Army defending under Kromy and the headquarters of Tyurin.
        The topic of the capture of the Eagle by the Germans could be immediately highlighted by stas57; he himself used these places. This is especially true in the light of the statement by the author of the article that the Wehrmacht allegedly burst into Orel from some other direction besides the south, leading from Krom.
    3. +3
      3 October 2016 17: 22
      3) the topic of command and control of troops during the operation is not disclosed

      Yes, there was no control. They broke through the front - everyone ran, that's all control. Then the boiler lasted a week - and captured. And so on the entire front line. Our generals of academies did not graduate, they studied in kind, in battle, paying the lives of ordinary soldiers.
      1. +5
        4 October 2016 07: 39
        But what's the point? French Polish generals graduated from the academy! Something did not win however belay
        1. +8
          4 October 2016 11: 20
          English and American too, by the way. And with about the same result laughing

          That is, having a numerical advantage of 1,5-2 times, the arrogant Saxons sometimes managed to keep up with the Germans on an equal footing, and with a 2-3-fold superiority in people and a 10-fold superiority in technology, the Germans were even beaten, it happened - although not always , it happened the other way around.

          But this is not a tricky business, and our "ignoramuses" and "mediocrities", even in the minority, managed well - in conditions when the Western "mega-pros" very competently raised their hands and hung out a proud flag with a white cross on a white background. lol
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 20: 57
            That is, having a numerical advantage of 1,5-2 times, the arrogant Saxons sometimes managed to keep up with the Germans on an equal footing, and with a 2-3-fold superiority in people and a 10-fold superiority in technology, the Germans were even beaten, it happened - although not always , it happened the other way around.

            So look who lost how much.
            The British soldiers cherished as a result of the losses are very moderate. And the fact that they were able to create a 10-fold advantage over the enemy is an honor and praise to those who could do it
            1. +7
              4 October 2016 21: 49
              It’s secret for you that the bulk of our losses in the Second World War were civilian losses, not military ones. And why this was so, is also classified for you. Sorry.

              It’s also secret for you and you that in the USSR during the Second World War the draft age did not change, and for some reason the Germans had a total mobilization from 16 to 70.
              I'm sorry again.

              Another secret: the British in WWII fought very little on land, much less than in WWII - they sat on their island.
              The French acted even "smarter" - after a month of war they began to bargain for the terms of surrender and, after bargaining for another week, they gave up. As a result, they still lost more than the USSR during the victory over the Kwantung Army.
  3. +5
    3 October 2016 07: 18
    The difficult period was. Thank you for the article, we look forward to continuing ...
  4. +4
    3 October 2016 07: 47
    Quote: Samsonov Alexander
    Enemy fire "thirty-four" Lieutenant Kukarin was hit. Gunner I.T. Lyubushkin was wounded, clothing on Lieutenant Kukarin caught fire, the driver of the tank, Fedorov, was also wounded and stunned, machine gunner Duvanov was wounded in the leg, but the crew continued the battle and set fire to five enemy tanks. In total, nine enemy tanks were destroyed in this battle by the crew of the combat vehicle. The front-line leaflet “Tank Duel” spoke about the exploit of a tanker: “Tank of Sergeant I.T. Lyubushkin

    So the tank Lyubushkin or Kukarin?
    In general, according to the description, "Lieutenant Kukarin" is more suitable for "Private Kukarin", charging the crew of Art. Sergeant Lyubushkin.
    Quote: Samsonov Alexander
    For the first time, the superiority of Russian T-34 tanks was manifested in a sharp form.

    I recognize the storyteller Guderian. Something before this T-34 did not bother him. And then suddenly he somewhere sought out their superiority. And how timely it was discovered.
    Quote: Samsonov Alexander
    In the report of the commander of the 4th Panzer Division of Langerman on October 22, 1941, it was noted that “for the first time during the Eastern campaign, the absolute superiority of the Russian 26-ton and 52-ton tanks over our Pz.III and Pz.IV was revealed”

    Is this not the same Langerman who attacked very arrogantly while in marching (and not combat) formations? Of course, after being slapped on his cap, he suddenly found out "the absolute superiority of the Russian 26-ton and 52-ton tanks over our Pz.III and Pz.IV". Well, I didn't want a tribunal, and that's it. Another storyteller, Guderian's rival.
    Quote: Samsonov Alexander
    The commission conducted detailed technical studies of the heavy tanks KV-1, KV-2 and medium T-34. The results obtained by the commission contributed to the acceleration of the work of German designers on the new PzKpfw V Panther medium tank

    It is strange that the Soviet stamp was not written that Panther is a German T-34. But the fact that the Soviet BTT of the Germans was not interested was also not written. Everything is very streamlined. I would like to know what Panther took from the T-34 and KV?
    1. Cat
      +2
      3 October 2016 08: 03
      The T-34 was the aforementioned "motivator" for accelerating the development of new Pz V and Pz VI Tiger tanks.
      1. +2
        3 October 2016 08: 15
        Quote: Kotischa
        The T-34 was the aforementioned "motivator" for accelerating the development of new Pz V and Pz VI Tiger tanks.

        This statement is highly doubtful.
        The fact is that the Germans began to move to the new Panzerwaffe structure only at the beginning of 1942 (they finished at the end of 1943). So later than the rest of the armies. Therefore, it is thought that in 1942. they would start moving to a new structure anyway. Without any T-34.
        And they began to develop Pz VI even before the Eastern company. For the structure of the old type. But then it was adapted for the new structure.
        With the Pz V, it was easier for them, it was immediately made for a new structure. This is why he has such a "non-German" form.
        Pz IV was altered by them almost without interruption from production. Fortunately, its high modernization potential allowed it.
        1. +3
          3 October 2016 12: 02
          Of course, after being slapped on his cap, he suddenly found out "the absolute superiority of the Russian 26-ton and 52-ton tanks over our Pz.III and Pz.IV". Well, I didn't want a tribunal, and that's it. Another storyteller, Guderian's rival.

          Compare the characteristics of T34 and HF on the one hand with T2, T3 and T4 mod. 40-41 years on the other. Everything is clear there. The first photo shows everything. The guns are oily, the caterpillars are narrow. ....
          1. 0
            3 October 2016 14: 03
            Quote: Hupfri
            The guns are oily, the caterpillars are narrow. ....

            So what? The German tanks in 1941. it was an important advantage that they were competent. Unlike the bulk of Soviet tanks.
            1. 0
              3 October 2016 19: 01
              So what? The German tanks in 1941. it was an important advantage that they were competent. Unlike the bulk of Soviet tanks.

              Well then, we have all the tanks capable. We and BT 7 had a good tank.
              45 mm cannon, the same class as the T-3 and T-38, there was a heavy version "E", the tracks were the same as those of the Germans. Fully capable. The T-26 was more capable than the T-1 and T -2, but in general it was not worse than the Czechs.
              The point is in underprepared crews and generals who were leading in the style of "A-la-ale-chase-geese". Like a civilian. A huge crowd of reds impudently breaks through the thin defense of whites. In 41, this tactic did not work.
            2. 0
              3 October 2016 19: 29
              Quote: Hupfri
              there was a heavy version "E", the tracks are the same as those of the Germans

              Iron?
              Quote: Hupfri
              BT 7 was a good tank. 45 mm gun, the same class as the T-3 and T-38

              Only "cardboard" armor.
              Quote: Hupfri
              T-26 was more capable than T-1 and T -2, but in general it is no worse than the Czechs.

              In variant "E" it was the strongest and most capable tank of the Red Army. But there were only 111 of them.
          2. +1
            3 October 2016 14: 15
            Quote: Hupfri
            Compare the characteristics of T34 and HF on the one hand with T2, T3 and T4 mod. 40-41 years on the other. Everything is clear there. The first photo shows everything. The guns are oily, the caterpillars are narrow.

            Do you want to talk about the T-34? wink
            In the form presented for testing, the T-34 tank does not meet modern requirements for this class of tanks for the following reasons:
            a) The firepower of the tank cannot be fully used due to the unsuitability of surveillance devices, defects in the installation of weapons and optics, the tightness of the fighting compartment and the inconvenience of using an ammunition depot.
            b) With a sufficient margin of engine power and maximum speed, the dynamic characteristics of the tank are poorly selected, which reduces speed and permeability of the tank.
            c) The tactical use of the tank in isolation from the repair bases is impossible, due to the unreliability of the main components - the main clutch and chassis.
            d) The range and reliability of communication obtained during testing for a tank of this class is insufficient, due to both the characteristics of the walkie-talkie 71 TK-3 and the low quality of its installation in the T-34 tank

            But maybe by the beginning of the war everything was fixed? Alas...
            15 1941 of August
            The combat operation of the T-34 tanks once again confirms the low quality of the gearboxes. The service life of the boxes is very short. Of the tanks that failed due to the fault of the boxes, not a single one passed 1000 km.
            According to the complaint act of 102 tank division of August 2 s / g for ten days of hostilities out of 15 tanks 7 tanks failed due to breakdowns of gearboxes.

            But in theory, in the TTX tablets (transcribed from TK) and in the photo - yes. T-34 utterly superior to opponents. It’s only a pity that everything was different in life.
            1. Cat
              +1
              3 October 2016 16: 48
              In Kharkov, the design of the modernized T-34m was developed. Even towers were ordered at the Mariupol plant and several coruses were welded. One of them was evacuated to N. Tagil. But the course of the war did not allow the release of these machines. Only in 43 was a change in the shape of the tower made, and in 44 the tank received a new 88mm cannon.
              This fate also touched the T50 which definitely surpassed the T60 and T70, but during the Second World War, Astrov's cars were riveted as more technological.
            2. 0
              3 October 2016 17: 18
              Quote: Kotischa
              In Kharkov, the design of the modernized T-34m was developed. Even towers were ordered at the Mariupol plant and several coruses were welded. One of them was evacuated to N. Tagil.

              Even in the drawings, this did not exist. Only in conversation.
              Quote: Kotischa
              and in 44 the tank received a new 88mm gun.

              85 mm. Together with a new tower and a new shoulder strap under it.
            3. 0
              3 October 2016 18: 40

              Quote: Hupfri
              Compare the characteristics of T34 and HF on the one hand with T2, T3 and T4 mod. 40-41 years on the other. Everything is clear there. The first photo shows everything. The guns are oily, the caterpillars are narrow.
              Do you want to talk about the T-34? wink

              Dear Alexey RA
              At one time, on the expanses of the site Popular Mechanics, a discussion of the T 34 tank was held. Year 3 was discussed. There are 700 pages.
              So I know well about the shortcomings of our T 34 tank. And could add a lot of things. But given the technological level of the country, which was, the low qualification of T 34 personnel was the most MOT.
              Nevertheless, the T 34 for our plants was still a rather complicated machine. Therefore, a lot of flaws appeared.
              But there were 2 important advantages.
              The first one. T 34 on the battlefield was competitive. That is, he fought with many enemy machines at least on equal terms
              The second one. He was good for our factories. Technological. They could be done a lot. And they were made a lot. The Americans went the same way, launched Sherman, a tank of the same class as the T-34 and self-propelled guns at its base. And they also made a lot of them.
            4. +1
              3 October 2016 19: 09
              Quote: Hupfri
              But given the technological level of the country, which was, the low qualification of T 34 personnel was the most MOT.

              Those. the release of extremely low-tech products for low-skilled personnel was "the very thing." Original statement.
              Quote: Hupfri
              The first one. T 34 on the battlefield was competitive. That is, he fought with many enemy machines at least on equal terms

              Is it possible to clarify with which machines of the enemy he was on an equal footing. Especially considering the three-inch F-34, the two-seat turret with a forward view within 26 degrees (sometimes 15 degrees, when completing the TMFD-7) and the "swing" suspension. And many, many different nifig not interesting.
              Quote: Hupfri
              The second one. He was good for our factories. Technological.

              Is it technological? In which place?
              The case consisted of many parts of complex shape. What weakened the case and complicated its assembly.
              A diesel engine is a priori harder than a gasoline engine. And it burns no worse. Moreover, with the worst consequences for the crew.
              In the variant with a three-inch by 1943. the tank is already completely hopeless. And the 85 mm gun was very, very expensive and low-tech.
              Once again, the question is, where and in which place was the T-34 simple and technological?
              Quote: Hupfri
              They could be done a lot.

              And how much really simple and technologically advanced Pz IV could be made at the production facilities of the T-34, it’s generally passion. But the tank was better than the T-34. Stronger.
              Quote: Hupfri
              And they were made a lot.

              This is not thanks. This is contrary to.
      2. +2
        3 October 2016 12: 50
        Quote: Kotischa
        The T-34 was the aforementioned "motivator" for accelerating the development of new Pz V and Pz VI Tiger tanks.

        As for the "panther" - yes, after getting to know the T-34, the Germans had to abandon old designs and crawl into a new class.

        But the terms of reference for the "tiger" as we know it, was approved even before the war - on May 26, 1941. At the same time, a fateful decision was made for the future "Ferdinands": to issue an order to Henschel and Porsche for 3 prototypes and 100 pre-production cars at once. reduction of too long development. And then, taking into account the planned rapid defeat of the USSR, the "tiger" could not have time for the planned war on land with the Allies. smile
    2. 0
      3 October 2016 12: 10
      Isn't that the Langerman who very arrogantly attacked while in marching (rather than combat) orders?

      when was it then?
      Of course, after being slapped on his cap, he suddenly found out "the absolute superiority of the Russian 26-ton and 52-ton tanks over our Pz.III and Pz.IV". Well, I didn't want a tribunal, and that's it. Another storyteller, Guderian's rival.

      are you telling some kind of fairy tales
    3. +3
      3 October 2016 13: 16
      Even as interested. There are many photos of Soviet tanks (BT, T-34) with German crosses.
      And how much they respected the heavy Soviet caterpillar tractors (Komintern, Voroshilovets) much has been written about this.
      Where it was possible and to what extent, they used Soviet equipment.
      1. 0
        3 October 2016 14: 05
        Quote: Ulan
        Where it was possible and to what extent, they used Soviet equipment.

        So everyone used the trophy technique. What is so surprising about this?
        1. 0
          3 October 2016 14: 57
          That's right. And I about it.
  5. +7
    3 October 2016 07: 51
    In the area of ​​Letoshnikov, Bryansk region Monuments-tools installed for soldiers of the 50 army
    1. +3
      3 October 2016 07: 54
      Tell me, put only one image?
    2. +3
      3 October 2016 07: 56
      General view of the monument on the river Ugost.
  6. +3
    3 October 2016 09: 07
    rjxtufh,
    Quote: rjxtufh
    These are their problems. We are not Germans. Not all, at least.

    Judging by the French flag? laughing

    P.S. The site somehow does not work correctly. When you click reply, it creates a new message, and does not continue the discussion thread. Not always, but sometimes.
    1. +2
      3 October 2016 13: 17
      I have the same thing. That works fine, then how a new message is published.
      1. 0
        3 October 2016 18: 21
        I have the same thing. That works fine, then how a new message is published.

        This happens when you reply to a post far from the end of the branch.
        To show what you answered.
        Not everyone browses the entire branch every time.
        1. +2
          3 October 2016 19: 43
          I think this is wrong, because the one to whom the answer is addressed does not see it and may not read it.
          1. +2
            3 October 2016 20: 26
            I came across this many times.

            Of course there is * brilliant people *, which at least poke under the nose a hundred times - all God's dew, "do not notice."

            But with such a separation of the answer from the branch, "not noticing" is incomparably easier, and you can actually not notice.
  7. +1
    3 October 2016 11: 16
    rjxtufh,
    These are their problems. We are not Germans. Not all, at least.

    That is yes. We are far from German punctuality, accuracy, attitude to work.
    Yes, and the commissioners we have half the population. Therefore, we live like that.
    1. +1
      3 October 2016 13: 56
      When catching fleas and dusting yourself with dust, even
      in the summer in the rear, instead of going down, to wash.
      Because of what, Russian soldiers could not stop in the German trenches.

      There was no whining command ...
      1. +1
        3 October 2016 18: 17

        There was no whining command ...

        I don’t need your commands. I'm not an expert on lice. Unlike you.
        By the way, collective farmer, when will you learn to insert quotes? Teach sick?
        1. +1
          4 October 2016 01: 39
          Do you know what happens every few years with Trotskyite dogs that did not obey commands?

          you're out of danger of Japanese captured bacteriological weapons specialist

          There was no command to insert quotes either.
    2. +1
      3 October 2016 14: 11
      Quote: Hupfri
      Yes, and the commissioners we have half the population. Therefore, we live like that.

      More. To the great regret. And the conclusion is correct, you can’t argue here.
      1. xan
        +3
        3 October 2016 16: 16
        Frenchman, did one of ours offend you?
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 01: 43
          after Denbenfu was offended
    3. +1
      3 October 2016 16: 42
      My God, poor thing, but what if you live in Russia, well, you would go to the other side, the Big Puddle or a little closer to the banks of the Small, warm puddle, there are certainly all yours and no commissars ...
      1. +2
        3 October 2016 18: 11
        Oh dear poor thing, why are you living in Russia? Well, I’d go to the other side,

        Honey, I live in my homeland, in my homeland, so you go, bunny, to your own.
        In S. Korea there is for your oasis. You will drool from there
        1. +4
          3 October 2016 23: 00
          Judging by your writings, doves, you do not live. And exist.
          So, splashing the whole article with an incredible amount of verbal trash, fabrications and lies, you will change your place of residence, before it's too late, time is working against you.
          Moreover, the commissars seem to be all around you ... look under the bed, in the closet, they’re already there for an hour, and there’s a funnel under the house ..
          Apparently Alexey RA, right when he hinted to you. Where are you broadcasting from here.
          1. 0
            4 October 2016 22: 18
            you change your place of residence before it's too late, time is working against you.

            Again!
            Do you even look around. Monuments appear to the tsarist generals, they are named after the streets, tsarist orders were introduced, the Preobrazhensky regiment was revived, the Cathedral of Christ the Savior was rebuilt in Moscow, and you were stuck in the Soviet past.
            This is an aberration of memory. I remember everything good, everything bad is forgotten
            I am Russian, born in Russia, live in Russia and will live in Russia.
            1. +5
              4 October 2016 22: 32
              You are no longer Russian in mentality.
              You are no longer Russian in thought.
              And even more so, there is no Russian, since you don’t understand the simple things that they say to you two days in a row, you’re an internal expat, and that’s how bad it is. Such as you. They do not live in the country for a long time.
              The revival of the REVIVAL, hatred, if you want the SOVIET, then yours, it doesn’t tear down, is rejected, the reaction of society to your monuments to the mannerheim, wrangels and other kolchaks is indicative, like the reaction to the activities of various Sakharov, Yeltsin and other Memorials = rejects you you country
              Surprisingly, people like you still have the audacity to yell about Victory, wear and wave the guards, St. George’s ribbons, in fact being the spiritual heirs of Krasnov and Vlasov, you have a clear mess with moral values.
    4. +7
      3 October 2016 18: 30
      Quote: Hupfri
      Yes, and the commissioners we have half the population. Therefore, we live like that.

      The USSR has been gone for 25 years - and the commissars are still to blame for everything. The cable is stolen, parked on the lawns. piss in the front ... smile
      It is very similar to one neighboring state - the truth is, the oaths are to blame for everything.
  8. +1
    3 October 2016 11: 19
    A tank drowned in the middle of the village is impressive. And how did the Germans reach the 45th. They were supposed to drown
    1. 0
      3 October 2016 14: 39
      Quote: Hupfri
      A tank drowned in the middle of the village is impressive. And how did the Germans reach the 45th. They were supposed to drown

      Duc ... say thanks to the commanders of the Red Army, who drowned the equipment entrusted to them, how much in vain.
      From the "Information about the location and technical condition of the tanks of the 24th tank brigade on 23.12.41":
      Tanks KV: (...)
      - 15.12.41/XNUMX/XNUMX during an attack in the village of Chesmeny load in a pond ...
      - In the village of Radovanje in the pond
      - In the village of Bazarov in a pond. "

      Not bad, but - the team drowned 3 KV. And one of them has been sitting for a week.
      With T-34 - the same picture:
      I’m reporting on the state of tank battalions (143 and 159) at 5.1.42 ...
      T-34 ... 2 tanks mired in the village of OSHURKOVO, the measures taken have not yet yielded the desired results, except that one car was blown up ...

      During the fall, the state of the soil extremely limited the maneuverability of tanks on the ground, there were often cases when even tanks such as the T-34 were landing on clearance ...

      But maybe these are just some glaring cases? Avotfig:
      Upon the arrival of the indicated 18 tanks - 5 KB and 13 T-34s, the commander of the 34th Cavalry Division Colonel GRECHKO leading the battle in the Loshkani-Aleksandrovka district ordered the tanks to be launched into battle. The command staff and drivers of the terrain and defense systems did not know. No time was given for reconnaissance. Despite the requirements of the brigade’s command, tanks should not be used, but it was not possible to conduct reconnaissance of the terrain, the enemy’s defense system, clarify the task and contact the units in the battle. The decision was made with a bang, not deliberately. The result was bad. Parts of the division were unsuccessful, since 5 pieces of “KB”, before reaching the battlefield, were seated on a swampy stream, they were taken under fire by the pr-com and had to be evacuated at night. 2 T-34s, having just entered the battle, caught fire from thermite shells of the Ave. The remaining 11 T-34s were withdrawn from the battle due to the inexpediency of their participation in the battle in this area. This also indicates the incorrect indication of the combat course for tanks by the commander of the 34th Cavalry Division. What he himself later confessed
  9. +2
    3 October 2016 12: 29
    General Lelyushenko decides to leave Oryol without a fight and organize a defense south of Mtsensk by the forces of the 36 Motorcycle Regiment, which is in reserve and the Tula Artillery School.
    oh yes, yeah, what order can we have?
    . There were not many of them - the advanced units of the 1-th Guards Rifle Corps - the 4-I and 11-I tank brigades.

    a little how much?
    TBER staff number 010 / 877 heavy tanks KV and 22 tank T-34.
    2 brigades-14 KB and 44 34, + 30 BT, T26 each
    Germans have Xnumx tanks.

    Short but strong counterattacks of the strike group of the 4-th tank brigade of Colonel M.E. Katukov suspended the victorious march of German tanks.

    4 infantry fighting forces during this period did not support the attack of the tank detachment. After the battle of the tanks of Major Kravchenko’s detachment, the 4 tank battles, taking advantage of the confusion of the enemy’s tanks, launched a counterattack, but returned to their original position after dark, which created a condition where it was impossible to evacuate our wrecked tanks from the battlefield and collect trophies.

    Our troops, from ambush actions, inflicted powerful fire attacks on enemy mechanized columns, forcing them to stop first and then turn into battle formations.

    and before that, how did they go? on camels chtol

    further laziness to disassemble
    1. 0
      3 October 2016 15: 10
      Quote: Stas57
      a little how much?
      TBER staff number 010 / 877 heavy tanks KV and 22 tank T-34.
      2 brigades-14 KB and 44 34, + 30 BT, T26 each
      Germans have Xnumx tanks.

      And also the regiment of frontier guards of Piyashev, the battalion of the Tula military school, iptadn, the RS division - this is just what Katukov himself mentions in the defense zone of his brigade.

      By the way, I found a quote from a document where the successes of Katukov are attributed to strictly following the Charter (and not just anywhere, but with Ulanov / Shein):
      ... the brigade took the path of firmly fulfilling the constitutional requirements both in relation to the organization of intelligence and in relation to the organization of defense itself. The defense was resilient by [creating] tank firing points both in front and in depth. Moreover, the firing points were nomadic, which did not decipher the defense. In short, the organization of defense was carried out strictly according to the charter
      © "Reviews of the combat operations of tank brigades from August 25, 1941 to January 27, 1942"
      1. 0
        3 October 2016 20: 32
        Yes, I remember it with them.
        thank you
        and 6 GVSD, 5 VDK, 447 cap
  10. +2
    3 October 2016 13: 02
    In general, it is a "great Soviet encyclopedia". Of course, recalling the school history course is a good thing. But. More important (and more interesting) are details, causes and effects, mistakes and successes in the organization. And "mass heroism" is just a cover for enchanting miscalculations and outright carelessness, however, as always and everywhere in the world (not only here).
  11. 0
    3 October 2016 15: 02
    In November, an investigation commission arrived to investigate the causes of the 24 th motorized corps under Mtsensk, which was tasked with “collecting materials to study Russian tanks and design new German tanks and more powerful anti-tank weapons on the basis of this”. The commission, which arrived in the 2 Tank Army, included well-known designers: Professor Porsche (Nibelungen), engineer Oswald (MAN) and Dr. Aders (Henschel). The commission conducted detailed technical studies of heavy tanks KV-1, KV-2 and medium T-34. The results obtained by the commission contributed to the acceleration of the work of German designers on the new medium tank PzKpfw V "Panther".

    In fact, the commission arrived for a completely different reason - its task was to collect information about the actions of the German BTT in the conditions of the Eastern Front. And Soviet tanks were considered exclusively in the context of "typical opponents."

    Why send a commission in November to research Russian tanks, if these tanks could be inspected already from June 22, 1941? Attacks alone in the Nemirov area cost us at least 6 T-34s (most of which are stuck in a swamp).
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. +1
    3 October 2016 18: 36
    Quote: rjxtufh
    frosts really prevented.

    Yes Yes. In July, August, September, it was all about Russian frosts laughing
    1. 0
      3 October 2016 18: 55
      Quote: murriou
      Yes Yes. In July, August, September, it was all about Russian frosts laughing

      Do you understand what is written in Russian?
      Or do you really understand what is written?
      My condolences.
  14. +2
    3 October 2016 18: 38
    Quote: Hupfri
    Synthetic fuel at minus 20 disintegrated into 2 non-combustible fractions

    OU. Can I learn more?
    1. +1
      3 October 2016 18: 51
      Shhhhh, don't scare me.
      Let him write that from the frost of the explosives of Hitler’s shells it disintegrated into dust and water. Therefore, it did not explode.
    2. 0
      3 October 2016 19: 34
      Can I learn more?

      Can. But you will not be interested. These are scientific and technical details.
      Didn't you know that? Well what are you so ...
      1. +2
        3 October 2016 20: 13
        Do not be shy!
        In more detail, more specifically, show your knowledge - what if for a change you get the truth? lol
  15. +1
    3 October 2016 18: 52
    Hapfri,
    Do not drive the blizzard: in the 1941 year, the T-34 and KV-1 were unparalleled against the German UG - T-III and T-IV.
    1. +3
      3 October 2016 19: 45
      Do not drive the blizzard: in the 1941 year, the T-34 and KV-1 were unparalleled against the German UG - T-III and T-IV.

      They had no analogues.
      And still did not have radio stations, surveillance devices, commander’s turret
      And they did not have an oil filter, did not have an engine with a resource of at least a hundred hours. Yes, a lot more that did not have. They did not yet have experienced drivers, and the commander combined his functions with a gunner. That is, they did not have full-fledged commanders.
      But they had agitators making the right speeches. Like you.
      1. +4
        3 October 2016 19: 56
        Well, for those propagandists, it’s easier for alarmists like you, simple Vani Solntsevs, at the first cry, everything was lost, they were left in the ditch.
        Probably because they won the war, because the Agitators, as you say, whom you hate for belonging to the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, correctly informed the fighters of the policy and practice in the destruction of the enemy.
        1. +3
          3 October 2016 20: 16
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          Probably because they won the war

          That is an illiterate creature.
          What can you "win" by losing almost 30 million compatriots? Do you understand Russian language? The meaning of words?
          They won in that war. But they did not win from her. The losses were too great.
          1. +4
            3 October 2016 20: 19
            You are illiterate, at what absolutely. Geopolitically, the Union won the war from the consolidated West, your cries for "help" from the Western allies from the category, uh, managed to be nodded, cries from the category - about 30 million losses - the war of destruction was not waged by us, but by Hitler, the combat losses are practically the same.
            . So calm down, you are an absolute dunno.
            Yes, and poke, it’s you at home, yours, and I’ve learned to YOU ​​as an enemy?
            1. 0
              3 October 2016 22: 05
              Geopolitically, the Union WINS the war against the consolidated West,

              Only the Soviet Union is no longer there, so the GEOPOLITICALLY Soviet Union blew out. And the West is there. Merkel, "partner", makes faces and teaches us life.
            2. +3
              4 October 2016 08: 16
              Quote: Hupfri
              Only the Soviet Union is no more, so GEOPOLITICALLY the Soviet Union has blown clean.

              It remains to add that the descendants of those almost 30 million compatriots are not and will never be. That's the whole "win".
          2. +6
            3 October 2016 22: 18
            This is cheating. We did not lose, but we "lost".
            You write as if 27 million Soviet citizens were destroyed by ourselves, not by the Nazis.
            This is akin to claims in Ukraine that people themselves burned themselves in the House of Trade Unions.
            I do not call for conscience, you can not call for what is not.
            Apparently, in order to equalize the losses, Stalin had to destroy 20 million German civilians.
            Do you have any idea what you are writing about?
            Stalin is guilty that he did not arrange for the total destruction of the Germans, like Hitler in the USSR?
            The French, of course, "won" when, almost without resisting, they fell under the Germans, and then they served them regularly throughout the war, from industry to brothels.
            1. +1
              4 October 2016 08: 19
              Quote: Ulan
              Do you have any idea what you are writing about?

              You have too much to learn.
              To understand what the Bolsheviks did with Russia. For all those years when they ruled over it. Including and in the years of 2MB.
          3. +2
            4 October 2016 14: 46
            Clear. Probably a "competent" creature, he believes that in order for the gain to be complete, Stalin had to destroy 20 million civilians in Germany, as Hitler did on the territory of the USSR. Are you out of your mind when you say that?
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 22: 36
              for the winnings to be complete, Stalin had to destroy 20 million civilians in Germany, as Hitler did in the USSR

              As for the civilian population, a lot of people died of starvation, and the disease worsened due to malnutrition and exhausting labor. Such conditions were not only in the occupied territories but also in our rear. Of course, no one is to blame for giving half the country. Naturally. It's nobody's fault. Well, the postwar famine there too.
              They did not provide for it. They didn’t think of it. They screwed up here. That's not 20 million lives
        2. 0
          3 October 2016 22: 20
          Agitators, as you say, whom you hate for being members of the CPSU

          Yes, not for belonging to this CPSU, but for the bestial attitude towards people is unthinkable in other countries. For the fact that it was easier for them to ditch the regiment in senseless attacks, but to report to higher party members. After all, no one will ask for those killed from them.
          They will ask why he did not attack this unapproachable rock? None of the "agitators" will understand whether the task at hand is real or not. So the tribunal. And so, he killed the regiment, well, it's my fault, it didn't work out. Serve on. Command. Lead.
          Right now they will customize the new ones, again we will storm the rock. This is your style, comrade communist.
          1. +2
            3 October 2016 22: 44
            Will you be here for a long time to throw calculations of long-faded myths such as corned beef and rezun, Svanidze and other Chubais and Brewers?
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 13: 48
              throw calculations of long-faded myths

              Myths are good.
              Over there near Moscow "Jerzy" stand, and the bones are not buried. Myths ....
      2. +2
        3 October 2016 20: 03
        Quote: Hupfri
        But they had agitators making the right speeches. Like you.

        My weak + to help.
        In fairness, I must say that the KV-1 was very decent.
        Nearly.
        But he was ruined by haste. Because of her, the checkpoint was installed "reinforced" from the T-28. And each product has a limit for "amplification". Therefore, the factory mechanics were still somehow managed. And the army's shafts were propeller driven. Then, by the summer of 1942. made a new checkpoint. But it was too late.
        In addition, there was no suitable gun for the KV-1. It was designed for a cannon with anti-aircraft gun ballistics and an "anti-aircraft" cartridge. And actually got a tank division on the "divisional" cartridge.
        You already wrote about filters.
        All these "little things" and ditched a pretty good project KV-1.
        But the T-34 project was not ruined. Sorry, because he was defective from birth. The operational tank at first was rather clumsily converted into an infantry one. And then the infantry tank was appointed as a medium-will decision. At the same time, it really became average (no matter what level) he only became in the variation of the T-34/85 in 1944.
        1. 0
          3 October 2016 21: 59
          All these "little things" and ditched a pretty good project KV-1.
          But the T-34 project was not ruined. Sorry, because he was defective from birth. The operational tank at first was rather clumsily converted into an infantry one. And then the infantry tank was appointed as a medium-will decision. At the same time, it really became average (no matter what level) he only became in the variation of the T-34/85 in 1944.

          I would not be so categorical. And KV and T34 still had childhood diseases and gave impetus to further development. Then came a series of IPs, quite powerful and the T34 / 85 was poorly poor but could even fight the Tiger.
          Agree, but an infantry tank or a medium one is just a matter of classification adopted in the country.
          1. 0
            4 October 2016 08: 31
            Quote: Hupfri
            Then came a series of IP

            IP is not a tank. A tower SPG.
            Quote: Hupfri
            T34 / 85 is poorly poor but could even fight the Tiger.

            Could T-34/85 fight the Tiger. And with Panther he couldn’t. And with Pz IV he could. Because they were classmates.
            In fact, he could with the Panther Tigers. But a bunch and at the cost of heavy losses.
            Quote: Hupfri
            Agree, but an infantry tank or a medium one is just a matter of classification adopted in the country.

            No. These are different types of BTT. An infantry tank follows NEXT infantry. Those. it is an armor-protected cannon of its support. During the Second World War, the SU-76 became such a gun.
            The medium tank follows BEFORE the infantry, breaking through the enemy defenses. From this to him completely different requirements. T-34/76 did not meet these requirements in any way.
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 13: 56
              IP is not a tank. A tower self-propelled gun
              Well, this is again a matter of accepted classification. Our self-propelled guns usually had a wheelhouse. In the USA, self-propelled gun turrets did not have a roof

              Could T-34/85 fight the Tiger.

              Well, I couldn’t. There were 2-3 cars. One hit the Tiger in the caterpillar, the tank turned around, substituting the side, the other car hit on the side. It was necessary to train and coordinate the crews, but by the end of the war they had already learned
              The medium tank follows BEFORE the infantry, breaking through the enemy defenses.

              Here I do not agree with you. These are breakthrough tanks. HF for example. Tiger.
              The T 34 was the first main tank, but it showed its best performance in deep raids on enemy rear lines.
              SU 76 had a too easy reservation, design and was often used for other purposes
            2. +1
              4 October 2016 15: 09
              Quote: Hupfri
              Well, this is again a matter of accepted classification.

              I agree. In the USSR, everything with a rotating turret was called a "tank". Even the KV-2.
              But in fact, self-propelled guns had a plethora of other radical differences. And judging by them IS-2, this is a turret self-propelled gun.
              Quote: Hupfri
              Well, I couldn’t. There were 2-3 cars. One hit the Tiger in the caterpillar, the tank turned around, substituting the side, the other car hit on the side. It was necessary to train and coordinate the crews, but by the end of the war they had already learned

              No, the sacrifice process there was a little different. But anyway it was not called "T-34/85 could fight the Tiger". At least not on an equal footing.
              Yes, and with Panther, too. The Americans generally rated Panther at 5 Sherman (not written which) or 9 T-34 (34/76 or 34/85 not written).
              Quote: Hupfri
              These are breakthrough tanks. HF for example. Tiger.

              Breakthrough tanks died with the birth of medium and heavy tanks. At the same time, heavy tanks were intended to break through a prepared and deeply echeloned defense. And the middle ones, to break through everything else.
              Quote: Hupfri
              T 34 was the first main tank

              The main tanks appeared later. Neither T-34 nor T-44 were them.
              Quote: Hupfri
              SU 76 had a too easy reservation, design and was often used for other purposes

              This is another question. But it was a Soviet assault self-propelled guns (amazing was rubbish, but there was traditionally nothing else). They during the war in the troops of the warring parties replaced infantry tanks.
            3. +2
              4 October 2016 17: 55
              Quote: rjxtufh
              IP is not a tank.

              And the men didn’t know! Neither ours, nor Germans, nor other people, forgotten to ask your advice ...

              Quote: rjxtufh
              An infantry tank follows NEXT infantry. Those. it is an armor-protected cannon of its support. During the Second World War, the SU-76 became such a gun.
              The medium tank follows BEFORE the infantry, breaking through the enemy defenses. From this to him completely different requirements. T-34/76 did not meet these requirements in any way.

              You speak, speak! laughing lol laughing
              It is immediately clear that from an early age you did not humiliate yourself by acquaintance with textbooks! Here is the path of true genius! laughing good

              We thought for a long time to create my * original * tank classification schools? What else will tell the world new and * unconventional *? lol
        2. +2
          3 October 2016 22: 21
          Got it. T-34 is the "worst" tank of the Second World War. The best is probably Somua. lol
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 08: 42
            Quote: Ulan
            Got it. T-34 is the "worst" tank of the Second World War. The best is probably Somua.

            You didn’t understand anything.
            T-34/76, this is an infantry tank by a voluntary decision assigned to the role of a medium tank. But he could not be a full-fledged medium tank, in principle, incl. from this and loss.
            T-34/85, this is a medium tank. Now it can be compared with Pz IV and Sherman. Only in the troops did he go in the spring of 1944. Yes, and the T-34/76 was produced until the summer of 1944.
            And the Germans have a full-fledged medium tank (Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.F2, however, according to the German classification it was light) went into the army from March 1942.
            And the supposedly "eternally dull Americans", who were in tanks, as is widely known in Runet, no boom-boom, a full-fledged medium tank Sherman went to the troops back in February 1942.
            So draw conclusions who fought with what. And who and in what there was no boom-boom.
            And then they read, damn it, agitprop agitation, and let's "assert the obvious."
            1. +2
              4 October 2016 09: 57
              Quote: rjxtufh
              T-34/76, this is an infantry tank by a voluntary decision assigned to the role of a medium tank. But he could not be a full-fledged medium tank, in principle, incl. from this and loss.

              T-34 - this is what happened from the technical specifications for the medium tank during its implementation in Kharkov. It could not be otherwise - because the design bureau and the plant were imprisoned for BT-like machines. Hence, the shoulder strap of the tower is not more than 1500 mm (the maximum possible for the plant), a candle pendant, a 4-speed gearbox, etc.
              If the task was set for the plant 174 - would receive the T-50XL. smile

              Plus, with the T-34 played a role in the issuance of TK. For Pavlov sculpted TK on a new CT, based on his Spanish experience + acquaintance with France’s BTT. So we got a tank that was well protected in the frontal projection from 37 mm and was able to work on anti-tank vehicles outside their effective range. So until 1941 the T-34 could well be considered a normal medium tank. And then the Germans went Pak-38, and everything became bad.
              In principle, even our specialists in early 1941 warned that the T-34 could no longer be called an anti-ballistic reservation tank - for this you need a forehead of at least 60 mm.
            2. +3
              4 October 2016 14: 49
              Thank. Rudeness is a clear sign of a lack of arguments. Especially amused the qualifications of tanks sucked out of the finger. Congratulations.
  16. +1
    3 October 2016 19: 09
    According to Hitler’s directive on the development of Barbaross’s plan, the military company against the USSR was to begin in May 1941 and end in five months, i.e. by November on the line Northern Dvina - Volga.

    In connection with the German attack at the beginning of the 1941 year on Yugoslavia and Greece, the term of the company against the USSR was reduced to 4 months. Strategically, the company was conducted strictly according to plan, the operational transfer of part of the tanks from the center to the south was temporary and purely operational.

    Now we look where the front line was going on as of December 1 of the 1941 of the year, and we conclude that the Barbaross plan was failed by the Wehrmacht.

    The Red Army was the force that destroyed the plan - through the formation of three Strategic echelons.
  17. +2
    3 October 2016 19: 27
    I agree with the comments that the article is weak, there is no analysis of the causes of the Vyazemsky defeat. If you look at the map of the position of the parties of the Army Group Center on 30.09.1941/10/20, where the Wehrmacht's attack groups are fully shown (before divisions and brigades), it seems like you can’t detect such a mass of troops ?! This is especially true of the group under the Spiritual. The terrain there is difficult, rivers, rivers, swamps with forests. Only three roads leading from west to east. Two of them are conditionally throughput even now (and then even primers), but the third Moscow-Minsk and all of them rest against the Vop river with a large swampy floodplain and steep banks. And two more to the north even in the Loynya river (30.09.41-19 km from the Vop river), with a very marshy western shore and a very high eastern shore. In general, the area is terrible for the offensive, but for the defense itself, tanks and motorized infantry are not there take a walk, just nowhere. Here on September 30, 15. the first line of defense of the 20th and 80th armies ran along the eastern bank of the Loynya river, the second along the Vop river, the third along the Vopets river (Reserve Front). In addition, the Western Front had five rocky roads — Yartsevo-Zhukovo (100–80 km from the front line), Safonovo –N. Pogoreloe (100–XNUMX km), and railways. Safonovo-Vl. Tupik (XNUMX-XNUMX km), railway Vyazma-Rzhev and cars Vyazma-Rzhev, which the Wehrmacht was not close. That is, maneuvering in the front line was a good opportunity, even with reserves, even with parts removed from non-threatened areas.
    We look further-50% of the troops of the Western and Reserve Fronts and their reserves are located on the axis of the Moscow-Minsk highway to a depth of 100 km, then there are no Safonovo troops. Although the experience of 4 months of the war said that the Wehrmacht attacks exclusively on the flanks, so what it was dashing to keep the bulk of the troops and reserves in the center ?! Well and besides that, the command of the fronts had overslept the concentration of the main forces of Army Group Center on the flanks. Then it’s even stranger - from the region of the Dukhovshchina the Wehrmacht launched an offensive on September 30.09.41, 2.10.41 and went to the Vop River (second line of defense) only by the end of 20. those. For three days he traveled 100 km (I spoke about the terrain, you won’t accelerate), and the leadership of the Western Front paid no attention to this, not a single reserve division was advanced to the axis of the enemy’s strike! The units (or rather, what was left of them) retreated to the second line of defense for three days restraining the entire Dukhovshchinsky group of the Wehrmacht. And they didn’t scratch further until the Germans reached the operational space and reached the advanced units to the Vopets river (XNUMX km!) ! How can this be understood ?!
  18. +3
    3 October 2016 19: 40
    rjxtufh,
    And what do you think is the total? Just from the private. And Lopatin’s outpost is not at all private, but just common in how border guards met the Germans.
    Many people know about the feat of the defenders of the Brest Fortress, but few people know that one of the pillboxes of the Brest Ur, not even completed construction. defended WEEK!
    And there are thousands, tens of thousands of such cases, the same tank battle near Lutsk and Brody, the resistance of Minsk, Letichevsky and other Levels, kaji for a day, for two for a week, let the blitz krieg break for an hour.
    Victory? Well, this is a doubt in Europe, and now it’s nonsense that the winners live worse than the defeated, and therefore this is not a victory.
    There is no respected Victory and no one can dispute this. Yes difficult. bloody. but GREAT and Berlin was taken by the Red Army and the banner of Victory was on the Reichstag.
    Our banner, not American, English or French.
    1. +1
      3 October 2016 19: 48
      Quote: Ulan
      Our banner, not American, English or French

      Just in case, I want to remind you that only the main winners of Germany (those who received their occupation sectors) were 4. Therefore, the USSR received a small share in the end.
      And for the banner over the Reichstag had to pay a lot of lives of compatriots. I would have preferred to see any other banner there, provided these lives were preserved. But the Anglo-Saxons charged the capture of Berlin on the USSR. And the losses from this take, too. And from "breaking ridges", too.
      Here are the things here.
      1. +2
        3 October 2016 20: 05
        Quote: rjxtufh
        I would prefer to see any other banner there, provided that these lives were saved.

        Oh, what a dreg ... Yes, we do not need your crocodile tears.
        Our Army took Berlin, and yours today, surprised by it, these same ... won?
        About February 28, 1941 .. well, tell us a terrific truth .. why don’t you think of it, just to somehow, well, to some extent lower the role of the USSR in that war.

        Now about your "secret" -SUDDENLY-USSR for February 41, NOT in a state of war with Germany. Exactly the same as the US and had the full right to trade, which corresponded to national interests, a purely pragmatic policy for the USSR.

        Memorandum
        In response to the memo handed on February 10 this year to the People’s Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the USSR V.M.
        1. Given the existence of the Agreement between Germany and Finland of July 23, 1940 on the supply of Germany from Petsamo 60% of nickel ore production, as well as the fact that this Agreement, according to the German-Finnish Agreement of September 16, 1940, cannot be denounced until December 1 1947, the Soviet government stands to ensure that Germany has the right to receive nickel ore mined in the mines of the subject organization of the Soviet-Finnish joint-stock company in Petsamo, in the same amount and for the duration of the above-mentioned German-Finnish Agreement, i.e. until December 1, 1947.
        http://www.nnre.ru/istorija/stalin_tainyi_scenari
        i_nachala_voiny / p4.php

        The USSR delayed the term of the war against itself, and your insinuations, by supply, are a bad smelling disinformation.
        1. +1
          3 October 2016 20: 13
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          Yes, we do not need your crocodile tears.

          There is a fairly large category of nonhumans who do not give a damn about the lives of compatriots. For them, this is crap, not value. Absolutely asocial type of behavior.
          1. +3
            3 October 2016 20: 16
            There is a rather small but very shrill part who pretends to be people, but who surrenders immediately to any enemy to serve his interests — you are in this category. And your initiations here are exactly the same work for the eternal enemy.
            If the proportion of illiterate rjxtufh, a historical document is nonsense, then is it not the infovirus -rjxtufh itself, which raves that day in VO?
          2. +2
            3 October 2016 22: 33
            Right. there is a large category of people for whom their own skin is the most precious in the world. Therefore, you need to save it and lie under the German. Because these are like-minded "civilized" Europeans and surrender to them and serve faithfully, it is not shameful, but we will save our lives.
            And then wait until others, at the cost of their lives, grind the monstrous military machine and everything in white., In the rank of winner, sit at the winners table, to which they have nothing to do.
            France and England are guilty of the fact that World War II became possible at all. And after that this hypocrite and deliberately indignant., The highest degree ....
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 08: 46
              Quote: Ulan
              France and England are guilty of the fact that World War II became possible at all.

              This is generally not interesting to anyone. The interesting thing is who and how crawled out of that situation. To what losses and what trophies, if they were.
              And about to lie down, sit down, podvstat, so it's "snot". Pseudo-patriotic, leavened.
              USSR 29.09.41 safely lay down under the Anglo-Saxons. For which he was rewarded by Lend-Lease. Free of money, but very expensive in terms of the human lives of compatriots. Those. the USSR paid for it with the Anglo-Saxons precisely by them.
      2. +2
        3 October 2016 20: 36
        If the Red Army had not taken Berlin and the Reichstag, the "winners" would have celebrated Victory Day without the USSR not only in 2015, but also in 1945. And it is a pity that the USSR did not manage to take Germany completely under its control.
        1. 0
          3 October 2016 20: 46
          Quote: Alexander Green
          If the Red Army did not take Berlin and the Reichstag

          Relax. None of the allies was going to storm Berdin and take the Reichstag. Due to the large estimated losses, this dubious "honor" was granted by them to the USSR. Rather, it is entrusted to the USSR.
          Quote: Alexander Green
          And it is unfortunate that the USSR was not able to take Germany under its control completely.

          And who would let him? Could give nothing at all. Although the zones of occupation in the end still inflated, because among the main winners took and included France. Having allocated the zone of occupation to her, at the expense of the remaining main winners. Including and at the expense of the USSR.
          1. +2
            3 October 2016 22: 39
            The Allies were not going to take Berlin, because first of all, Stalin wouldn’t let them into this, they are not worthy.
            Secondly, the gut is thin.
            France was allowed to include Stalin among the winners. He regretted forever beaten.
            At the expense of the USSR, no one allocated France to anything, the USSR retained the entire occupied territory. The share of the USSR decreased not at the expense of France, but at the expense of Poland, to which the USSR cut territory, due to its zone of occupation. You need to know the history when you come to such forums. And ambition, by God, not in the rank.
            France lost the war and only the pity of the allies, allowed her to attend the winners table in the side chair.
            1. +1
              4 October 2016 09: 00
              Quote: Ulan
              The Allies were not going to take Berlin, because first of all, Stalin wouldn’t let them into this, they are not worthy.

              "When you speak it feels like you are delusional."
              Quote: Ulan
              France was allowed to include Stalin among the winners. He regretted forever beaten.

              Did you feel sorry for Dzhugashvili? Yes, a big soul was a man. Good man, in the most extreme manifestation.
              Think at least sometimes when you write something.
              Quote: Ulan
              and at the expense of Poland, to which the USSR cut the territory, at the expense of its zone of occupation

              Actually, it was later.
              Quote: Ulan
              France lost the war and only the pity of the allies, allowed her to attend the winners table in the side chair.

              You are mistaken. France won the war (see papers, including the Act of German surrender). In addition, due to the insignificance of losses, she also won from the war.
              And the Soviet propaganda about the "side chair" today is of little interest to anyone.
          2. +4
            6 October 2016 18: 59
            But about the fact that no one among the Allies "was going to storm Berlin and take the Reichstag" - this is a brazen diversion. Of course not! What for? There would be a quick, separate peace, provided the end of a few odious Nazi bosses, and that's it. And you, dear, in general, would not argue here right now - you would simply NOT BE in nature. Because your father would have met the fruits of the "Manhattan Project" and would not have been able to conceive you because of the shyly worded "atomization of the USSR." Respect the blood of Soviet soldiers, given for the fact that our "allies" were unable to create a new column for "Drang nach Osten" on the fragments of Germany in 1945, only after the atomic bombings. If not for the early capture of Berlin and Prague, then instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there would be Vladivostok and Sverdlovsk, and maybe even Moscow and St. Petersburg. No need to play the fool. It is well known why they took Berlin with obscenities and postponed the "meeting on the Elbe". Grandfather-tanker told how the British were driven after their insolent artillery attack.
            1. 0
              6 October 2016 19: 13
              Quote: andrew42
              There would be a quick separate peace, provided the end of several odious Nazi bosses, and that’s all.

              Yes? Did you come up with this yourself? You are a big dreamer.
              Quote: andrew42
              You simply WAS NOT in nature.

              Yes, what are you? The further you go, the worse you get. If I were a preschool boy, I would be scared.
              Quote: andrew42
              Because your dad would get to know the fruits of the Manhattan Project

              But why didn’t he meet him after the war? What prevented him so much?
              After all, the USSR created the nuclear shield only in 1963. Contrary to Soviet tales. Khrushchev, by the way, created. Putting on a rocket. Which was, as you know, bad.
              But no matter how good a mustachioed J did not create. Because I bet on aviation. Wrong. He almost always put it wrong. This "cool professional". Only one stake on "friendship with Germany" was worth what.
              Quote: andrew42
              Respect the blood of Soviet soldiers,

              Actually, it’s not for you to remind me of this. I am one of the few on this site who respects her and does not tire of regretting such an INSANELY number of victims among compatriots.
              Quote: andrew42
              our "allies" were unable to create in 1945 a new column for "Drang nach Osten", only after the atomic bombings

              Did they want to? What stopped them? Is the storm of Berlin in 1945? And why?
              Quote: andrew42
              then instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be Vladivostok and Sverdlovsk, and maybe even Moscow and St. Petersburg.

              You have to perform right in the theater of the absurd. For money.
              Quote: andrew42
              It is well known why they took Berlin with obscenities

              What for?
              Quote: andrew42
              and postponed the "meeting on the Elbe"

              For some reason, it always seemed to me that they were getting closer. And it turns out you pulled with a victory, pushed it.
              What else do you agree?
              Quote: andrew42
              Grandfather, a tankman, told how they drove the British after their arrogant artillery strike.

              This is a little interesting folklore.
      3. 0
        3 October 2016 21: 26
        the main winners of Germany (those who received their occupation sectors) were 4. Therefore, the USSR ultimately received a small share.

        This is not entirely true. France got its share from the share of Western allies.
        The USSR received all of Eastern Europe Prussia and Finland. Austria has become neutral. Roosevelt gave Stalin everything he wanted.
        But the capture of Berlin, the Anglo-Saxons piled on the USSR

        The USSR itself stipulated this right in Yalta. Patton launched a strike of his troops on Munich.
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 09: 06
          Quote: Hupfri
          This is not entirely true. France got its share from the share of Western allies.

          This is what agitprop said. In fact, the USSR 1/3 of Germany (and Berlin) did not receive France as a result of making France the list of main winners.
          Quote: Hupfri
          The USSR received all of Eastern Europe Prussia and Finland. Austria has become neutral. Roosevelt gave Stalin everything he wanted.

          They did not give Finland. They did not give Austria. They gave only European rogues + Czech Republic. And with a share in Germany squeezed. Dkmaet, is this exactly what Dzhugashvili wanted?
          Quote: Hupfri
          The USSR itself stipulated this right in Yalta.

          Right? Nifiga has a right. It was exactly the same duty of the USSR as the duty to "break the ridge." A duty that involved enormous sacrifices. It was for this that the Anglo-Saxons paid the USSR with Lend-Lease. And soft loans, by the way.
          1. +1
            6 October 2016 19: 12
            Does the tail wag the dog? Actually, we were not paid with "Lend-Lease", but we PAYED WITH LEND-LEASE. And Mr. Truman wrapped the last PAID deliveries to the dismay of the protesting Hopkins. And he wrapped up the part, the scoundrel. and the USSR did not receive the promised post-war loans. And he inherited the "honorable right" to raise the already initially agricultural "eastern zone" from the ruins. Like, take reparations from the poor and the poor. And our "American-English cow" is a fat piece of the future FRG. Therefore, the Americans and the British since 1946 opposed the preservation of Germany's integrity in every possible way. Until 1948 they played "economic negotiations" with us, until they released new brands in the western zone, hammering the bolt on all promises. There was such a circus in 1946-1948 that the current Kerry and Power are just pathetic comedians.
            1. 0
              6 October 2016 19: 37
              Quote: andrew42
              and we PAY BY LAND LISA

              Poured. And generously. The blood of compatriots.
              In monetary terms, Lend-Lease deliveries were free of charge.
              Quote: andrew42
              Moreover, Mr. Truman wrapped up the last PAID deliveries to the horror of the protesting Hopkins.

              This has never happened, never lie.
              Quote: andrew42
              Like, take reparations from the poor and the wretched.

              So agreed on 29.09.42/XNUMX/XNUMX, nothing can be done.
              Quote: andrew42
              therefore, the Americans and the British since 1946 have strongly opposed the preservation of the integrity of Germany.

              You are just a storyteller.
      4. +3
        3 October 2016 23: 19
        Thank you. Laugh. The important thing is not what you would like to see there, but what the USSR wanted to see. And he did this, although probably someone really wanted to see the flags of the USA, England and France above the Reichstag.
        The Anglo-Saxons could not "load" anything on the SSR, this is an honorable right, the Soviet soldiers won with their valor and courage, and the entire Soviet people with their dedication and he would not give this right to anyone.
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 09: 08
          Quote: Ulan
          The Anglo-Saxons could not "load" anything on the SSR, this is an honorable right, the Soviet soldiers won with their valor and courage, and the entire Soviet people with their dedication and he would not give this right to anyone.

          You should write agitation in the district committee. You would do well.
          Only now it’s not necessary. Therefore, you have to work. Sorry, huh?
  19. +1
    3 October 2016 19: 46
    rjxtufh,
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Quote: Ulan
    Or will you dispute the facts about the resistance of the border guards and Przemysl?

    These are special cases that did not affect the general course of the war.
    Quote: Ulan
    Or do you think that Germany won the war?

    This is an extremely difficult question. Watching from whom.
    In addition, the terms “won” and “won” should be shared.

    Here I do not seem to understand. Germany did not win the war against anyone, because the result is unconditional surrender, unless of course you mean France, and as if Keitel's phrase - "these also defeated us"?
    1. 0
      3 October 2016 19: 54
      Quote: Ulan
      Here I seem to misunderstand.

      I’ll explain to you later how the war waged by the USSR until September 28, 1941. different from the war after this date. In the USSR, events for this date, for obvious reasons, were not accepted to advertise. But it was decided to veil in every possible way.
      1. +2
        3 October 2016 20: 13
        Nothing, you can’t say, except for outright Falsehood. And the reality is this.
        Trade with the enemy
        Those who condemn the then Soviet leadership for non-compliance with "moral standards" in foreign policy proceed from the postulate that trading with a potential adversary is something out of the ordinary. However, in real life, doing business with a future enemy is a common occurrence. We will not go far for examples. So, on the eve of World War I, Germany was the main trading partner of the Russian Empire. Despite the fact that the allied treaty of Russia with France, which was clearly anti-German, was concluded as far back as 1 [1893], and with England, in 487 [1907], the volume of Russian-German trade steadily increased: if in 488-1898 . 1902% of Russian exports went to Germany, and 24,7% of Russian imports came from Germany, then in 34,6 it was already 1913% and 29,8%, which significantly exceeded the share of England (47,5% and 17,6%) and France (12,6% and 6,6%) combined [4,1]. Trade with the Germans was briskly conducted until the very outbreak of war.
        “And you do not compare the respectable empire of the Kaiser with the Third Reich,” my opponents will object. “The odious Hitler regime put itself outside the framework of the community of civilized nations, so any cooperation with it, including economic, is categorically unacceptable.”
        To begin with, Nazi Germany conducted active foreign trade in the 1930s. Moreover, without the foreign sources of raw materials, the then German economy simply could not exist. So, on the eve of the outbreak of World War II:
        “For raw materials, dependence on imports was approximately 33%. In the metallurgical industry, the ratio of domestic ore consumption to consumption of imported ore was expressed in a ratio of 1: 3. For a number of non-ferrous metals, dependence on foreign countries was extremely large; So, for lead it was 50%, for copper - 70%, for tin - 90%, for aluminum (bauxite) - 99%. The dependence on mineral oils (65%), rubber (over 85%) and raw materials for the textile industry (about 70%) was also very significant ”[490].
        Who supplied Germany with raw materials? The main suppliers of the Third Reich were the United States and England, not only giving the Nazis the opportunity to make extensive purchases thanks to exemption from debt payments and providing new loans, but also supplying them with especially valuable types of strategic raw materials, re-exporting them to Germany from other countries [491].
        http://subscribe.ru/group/pole-chudes/6114360/
        1. 0
          3 October 2016 21: 15
          Who supplied Germany with raw materials? The main suppliers of the Third Reich were the United States and England, not only giving the Nazis the opportunity to make extensive purchases

          Well, it depends on what period.
          From the 39th to the 41st and the USSR, he had a hand here. He supplied food, oil, metal, and cotton. When others fought against fascism.
          1. +3
            3 October 2016 21: 36
            Yes?
            Or maybe we’ll raise the data, who, how much and where gave pennies to restore the military, primarily the power of the Third Reich?
            And then we digest such a moment — cotton is raw, in its original state it is not suitable for anything — consider, undoubtedly a great manager and economist, how many labor and energy costs are borne by those who received it in a toll-free form.
            Then we will consider the issue with ore, check your erudition in knowledge, what is the percentage of iron, is economically viable for processing, and which is not.
            Well, bring the balance, all that is delivered from the USSR in the general balance of the state economy of Germany, can you?
            1. 0
              3 October 2016 22: 50
              t-cotton is raw, in its original state it is not suitable for anything — consider, undoubtedly a great manager and economist, how much labor and energy costs are borne by the one who received it in a toll-free form.

              The one who needs cotton as air is especially affected.
              And by no means for the production of diapers for babies, but for the production of, for example, modern smokeless gunpowders.
              Subcontracted oil can be used for production, you know what. High quality oils, aviation gasoline, and diesel for submarines.
              A warring country always needs metal in any form. Ore is not suitable for tanks, it will do for steam locomotives. The British, for example, cast a cry and gathered millions of pots and pans from their inhabitants, turning them into guns and tanks. They had no ore. Submarines fueled by Soviet solarium interfered with supply
              Well, bread, grain, flour, cereals, meat will come in handy both at the front and in the rear.
              So the USSR to Hitler created simply ideal conditions for the continuation of the war with England. I plugged all the bottlenecks, solved the problem of deficiency.
              In Soviet magazines of that time, highbrow cranks discussed the life of the Luftwaffe of London, which was struggling with air raids. Detached and even ironic. If they only knew that in a year, with two bottles and one rifle for three, they would lie under bombs from the same unsuitable ore, somewhere under Rzhev, biting into the frozen ground and praying that at least this time it would not hook.
          2. +2
            3 October 2016 21: 44
            How did it happen that in just 20 years, Germany defeated in World War I turned into a country with a powerful military economy and army that was able to conquer almost all of Europe? Who helped Germany to become the strongest military power?
            REVIVAL
            In 1924, the Dawes Plan was adopted, its purpose was to restore the German economy and the penetration of US capital into Europe. Germany could not pay reparations. And the United States offered to finance the restoration of the German industry with loans. Until 1929, loans worth $ 2,5 billion were received from the United States and $ 1,5 billion from England. The Dawes plan not only allowed Germany to cover repair costs, but also made it possible for German industry to re-equip its material base, upgrade equipment and create the foundation for military production.
            Assessing the outcome of the Dawes plan, an American researcher R. Epperson wrote: "Without the capital provided by Wall Street, Hitler and World War II would not have existed."
            http://oursociety.ru/publ/novaja_i_novejshaja_ist
            orija / kto_vzrastil_iz_slaboj_germanii_moshh_trete
            go_rejkha / 9-1-0-153
            1. 0
              3 October 2016 23: 00
              How did it happen that in just 20 years, Germany defeated in the First World War turned into a country with a powerful military economy and army,

              Funny you, right word.
              This whole economy was in Germany. And industry. And first-class science. Well this is not Russia, where the Marxists ruined the whole economy. Germany produced the full range of industrial products necessary for war. The Allies only confiscated the fleet, which the Germans then drowned, took planes and large-caliber guns. Industry has not suffered at all. Everything worked. Well, where there were problems with the allies, the USSR helped.
              Tank school in Kazan, an air base in Lipetsk, a chemical training ground in the suburbs. Every whim for your money.
          3. +2
            3 October 2016 22: 46
            So what? Was the USSR and Germany at that time in a state of war or in different military blocs?
            The USSR did not commit anything immoral. Many countries traded with Germany, but for some reason the reproach was only towards the USSR.
            In the 39-40th there was no Majdanek, Dachau and Auschwitz, and the war in Europe was waged quite European-style and Hitler was not an outcast.
      2. +4
        3 October 2016 22: 42
        Should I explain? Illiterate explanations are not necessary for me. And even more imagination on historical topics.
        And this "someday" is a vivid evidence of demagoguery and the absence of any real knowledge.
        Usually, when you have something to say, they say right away, and do not end with vague promises, especially since no one asks you of them.
        Do not set off.
  20. +3
    3 October 2016 20: 17
    Quote: rjxtufh
    The operational tank was first rather clumsily converted into an infantry

    Yes, I remembered you! You had it * original * version of the classification of tanks, and for us, and for the Germans, and for the British and Americans, you ordered with approximately equal * awareness * и * originality *. laughing

    Encore, maestro, Encore! Repeat your triumphal exit with this hochmochku! good
  21. +1
    3 October 2016 20: 21
    Quote: Alexey RA
    But the terms of reference for the "tiger" as we know it was approved even before the war

    Since the 30s it has been "approved" lol

    The only ambush is that this is a TK from approval to approval a little lol changed, and if at first the combat weight was about 30 tons in terms of TK, then later it turned out we know what.
    And the pre-war TK had an extremely doubtful relationship to the final result. Well, perhaps the historical one is about the same as Christie’s tank for the T-34.
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 10: 17
      Quote: murriou
      And the pre-war TK had an extremely doubtful relationship to the final result. Well, perhaps the historical one is about the same as Christie’s tank for the T-34.

      The pre-war terms of reference for the "tiger" determined the final result. For on May 26, 1941, the epic with the constant improvement of the Panzer Schwere projects was directively completed - a decision was made: to equip the VK3601 with an 88-mm gun, to strengthen the frontal armor to 100 mm, the side armor to 80 mm and to supply at least 6 such tanks by summer 1942 No further changes were made to the TK.

      And so - yes, the history of the "tiger" has been going on since 1937.
  22. +1
    3 October 2016 20: 22
    Quote: rjxtufh
    only the main winners of Germany (those who received their occupation sectors) were 4

    “What, and THESE defeated us too ?!” (C)
  23. +1
    3 October 2016 20: 23
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Do you understand what is written in Russian?

    Do you think you are writing in Russian ?! laughing
  24. +1
    3 October 2016 20: 27
    Quote: rjxtufh
    That is an illiterate creature.

    Your self-criticism inspires hope laughing
  25. +2
    3 October 2016 20: 35
    Quote: rjxtufh
    There is a fairly large category of nonhumans who do not give a damn about the lives of compatriots.


    There is a fairly large category of nonhumans who try to hide behind the hypocritical care of the lives of those compatriots who, in their other messages, are called unworthy of living in the world - and consider it right to exterminate by all available means.

    There is a fairly large category of nonhumans who allegedly regret our losses in the war - although they rather regret the victory achieved as a result, preferring our defeat, but without the "wrong" system, "wrong" people and "wrong" banner.

    I look forward to your revelations on ways to win the war without loss.
    Or about ways not to wage a war when an enemy has already attacked our country with all its might.
    1. 0
      3 October 2016 20: 56
      I look forward to your revelations on ways to win the war without loss.
      Or about ways not to wage a war when an enemy has already attacked our country with all its might.

      No need to bring your country to such a position when you have to wage such wars. Our country met the war without a single ally, even those who later helped us at the start of the war were our opponents.
      There is no need to pursue an internal policy in the country that sets some citizens against others, it is not necessary to instill an atmosphere of fear and insecurity, it is not necessary to destroy entire estates
      no need to bring ideology to the point of absurdity, no need to renounce age-old traditions in the name of the transparent, unattainable kingdom of the "man of labor", but in fact a bloated party bureaucratic apparatus.
      There was a lot to do.
      Well, even when the enemy attacked, and the army, by virtue of all the foregoing, fled here it was really late, it was necessary to lay millions in the ground. The commanders were something like economic managers and ideologists, to put it mildly, stupid.
      1. +1
        3 October 2016 21: 16
        Quote: Hupfri
        even those who later helped us

        Nobody of the USSR helped in any way. Although some no merchant at an exorbitant price for gold sold him.
        Well, after September 29.09.41, 30 The USSR was already fulfilling its role, to which it had subscribed, and for its fulfillment, consumables were provided for free. Various, for example, the Red Army was fully supplied with Lend-Lease food (although part of it went into civilian traffic in exchange for domestic). All this was supplied in exchange for the lion's share of the alleged profits that were to happen after the defeat of the Axis countries (not only Germany). For the blood of fellow citizens (almost XNUMX million people, as we know today), the USSR was content with only a small fraction.
        PS. You answer in vain to this user. There are great doubts about its adequacy.
        1. +1
          3 October 2016 21: 23
          What stupidity. Is this a newly invented myth?
          Churchill admitted, at the entrance of Stalin, it was tempting to jump up and take a stand at attention, so who is there and where he signed up for?
          What were the Americans and the Angels so afraid of hiccups that they were eager for Berlin, but could not?
          Even in battles with frankly second-rate German divisions?
          Why did Churchill and Roosevelt so scream when they got lule in the Ardennes?
          A ridiculous version, from the category, we lie, lie, and lie again, just to at least somehow throw dirt at the USSR and Stalin, you are a worthy Goebbels student.
          https://topwar.ru/67271-bitva-v-ardennah.html
          Even this author, in the situation of that time, understands better than you. And what you are good for, it tells what the vaunted allies did in Greece.
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 14: 58
            Quote: The Bloodthirster
            Churchill admitted, at the entrance of Stalin, it was tempting to jump up and take a stand at attention, so who is there and where he signed up for?

            Did he personally confess to you? When was the passage from Mukhosk to Zadrischensk?
            Why then are you talking such nonsense?
            1. +1
              5 October 2016 22: 22
              Quote: rjxtufh
              When was the passage from Mukhosk to Zadrischensk?

              Are you talking about yourself and Hapfrey?
              Indeed, you know how to scratch nonsense for a couple.
        2. +2
          3 October 2016 22: 59
          Fully supplied with food at the expense of Lend-Lease? Further reading this nonsense makes no sense. It seems that someone is certain that the Soviet peasants were cooling and sunbathing throughout the war.
          My father was commissioned in the 44th after spending half a year in the hospital after being seriously wounded. So he said. that he didn’t see any notorious American stew in his eyes, although he finished the war, the deputy commander of the battalion.
          You probably don’t understand that there are a lot of people who knew the war veterans closely and who were their closest relatives.
          My father, mother, three uncles, my mother’s grandfather fought, and you’ll try to hang noodles for me here.
          1. 0
            4 October 2016 09: 18
            Why so?
            Look at how many kilocalories of food received in the USSR through Lend-Lease (67 502 474,4 million kcal, this does not include those brought by private firms and public organizations)
            Learn army supply standards.
            And quietly so awesome.
            Enough for the whole army, even during the period of its largest number, for the whole 2MV up to the surrender of Japan. And a little more remained.
            But after the war, food was not supplied to the USSR under the Lend Lease. And in the USSR there was another famine. With thousands of victims.
            Quote: Ulan
            So he said. that he didn’t see any notorious American stew in his eyes, although he finished the war, the deputy commander of the battalion.

            Stew was not limited to. There were still concentrates. There was even borscht in bags.
            1. +2
              4 October 2016 12: 31
              I don’t need to study anything, especially since the numbers can always be pulled by the ears and even more so that I know very well. Study statistical handbooks on food production in the USSR from the 41st to the 45th year.
              Fact is fact. The Red Army and the whole country were supplied BASIC food at the expense of the Soviet rural household.
              ALL front-line soldiers speak unequivocally, food on the fronts was mainly Soviet-made.
            2. 0
              4 October 2016 15: 19
              Quote: Ulan
              Fact is fact. The Red Army and the whole country were supplied BASIC food at the expense of the Soviet rural household.

              Well, tell us then where this very "Soviet agriculture" took equipment, fuels and lubricants, workers and, most importantly, arable land for this very supply.
              And at the same time, do not forget to write to us where all this happened after the Second World War, when another famine occurred in the USSR with thousands of victims.
              Quote: Ulan
              Study statistical handbooks on food production in the USSR from the 41st to the 45th year.

              Oh yeah. Only this remains.
              Quote: Ulan
              ALL front-line soldiers speak unequivocally, food on the fronts was mainly Soviet-made.

              Do you have wide connections among front-line soldiers?
              I wrote to you about American borsch? About American cereals from concentrates? Read the memoirs that the soldiers ate and from which they prepared food for them.
          2. 0
            4 October 2016 14: 59
            Quote: Ulan
            It seems that someone is certain that the Soviet peasants were cooling and sunbathing throughout the war.

            Soviet peasants fought. And the arable land was mostly under the Germans.
        3. 0
          3 October 2016 23: 23
          Various, for example, the Red Army was fully supplied with Lend-Lease food

          All the same, I mind you. The Americans also supplied us with Lend-Lease weapons. There were such volumes - we would never pay. Here the British sold for gold, but they can also be understood, Britain was already bankrupt. Those orders that we made through private western companies were also paid.
          For the blood of fellow citizens (almost 30 million people, as we know today), the USSR was content with only a small fraction.

          Stalin did not celebrate Victory Day.
          May God save us from such victories in the future.
          The authorities now need to unite the people somehow, with some idea. The idea of ​​Victory is much better suited than the slogan "Get rich!"
          Although Russia in the past had many victories to be proud of.
          PS. You answer in vain to this user. There are great doubts about its adequacy.

          This one is nothing.
          There are absolutely terrible instances. And in disputes, as you know, truth is born.
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 09: 42
            Quote: Hupfri
            The Americans also supplied us with Lend-Lease weapons. There were such volumes - we would never pay. Here the British sold for gold, but they can also be understood, Britain was already bankrupt.

            Lend-lease supplies were free. In terms of money.
            In addition, foreign trade turnover is often confused with lend-lease deliveries. It did not stop during the war either. And it was paid in gold, as well as from preferential loans that were provided by the USSR. After the Second World War, the USSR did not want to pay on these preferential loans. In the USSR, for propaganda reasons, this debt was called "debt for lend-lease". But he had nothing to do with Lend-Lease.
            Quote: Hupfri
            May God save us from such victories in the future.

            Do not worry. The probability of self-destruction exists, and it is quite high. God forbid, of course. But "a lot of people want", apparently. "Lord! I know that when you want to punish people, you deprive them of their mind!"
            Quote: Hupfri
            The authorities now need the people to somehow unite, some idea.

            What for?
            Quote: Hupfri
            And in disputes, as you know, truth is born.

            From conversations with stupid trolls, only a sense of disgust and an unpleasant aftertaste is born.
      2. +1
        3 October 2016 21: 28
        Another pearl.
        Well, oh the greatest of politicians and the most invincible of generals, oh the brilliant manager of Hapfrey, TELL us how YOU, undoubtedly the most brilliant, would have acted, I give reference points-in 1933,1937.1939,1941,1943,1945.
        let's listen to yours. undoubtedly the most genius story from ALTREALITY, which has nothing to do with REALITIES, try it, suddenly a fantasy comes out of you, like Zlotnikov, for example.
        1. 0
          3 October 2016 23: 33
          I give reference points - in 1933,1937.1939,1941,1943,1945.

          The reference point was in 1916-17, then it was not necessary to bring everything down.
          But then, in no case do not make a deal with Hitler. Then we would know that this is the enemy and we will fight with him. We will bring troops into combat readiness, mine bridges and roads.
          And the last chance is May 40th. Hitler to France - we are to Germany. And right away.
          1. +2
            3 October 2016 23: 49
            No need to wag, dear.
            You were asked a question with strictly defined frames, so try to digest what dates and why they are named.
            Deal with Hitler questions to Chamberlain and Daladier.
            How many Treaties with Germany were in Europe? Tighten, undoubtedly your mighty intellect will find the answer.
          2. +2
            4 October 2016 01: 35
            In 1940, the enemies of the USSR were Germany, Japan, France and Britain (excluding any riffraff). In 1941 year - Germany.

            Allies of the USSR:
            1940 - Mongolia and China;
            1941 - USA, British Empire, Mongolia and China.
            1. +1
              4 October 2016 16: 49
              Quote: Operator
              Allies of the USSR:
              1940 - Mongolia and China;
              1941 - USA, British Empire, Mongolia and China.

              No "state of Mongolia" before 1946. (if I am not mistaken) it was not at all. There was a Chinese province temporarily occupied, first by the White Guards, and then by the USSR. With a puppet "government". Something like the Japanese Manchukuo.
              China (Kuomintang) was not an ally of the USSR, of course.
              USA and Britain in 1941 were allies. Between themselves.
              They did not enter into real allied relations with the rest of the "allies in the anti-Hitler coalition" (there were many of them). Because the elephant is not the friend of the pug.
          3. +2
            4 October 2016 12: 08
            Oh how! This is the "strategist". That is, the USSR in 1940 should not have completed the rearmament and reorganization of the army, WITHOUT having allies in Europe, to take and get into an adventure with completely incomprehensible consequences?
            Yes, it is good that such "strategists" with childish ideas about war and politics did not rule the USSR.
            Do you not know that Hitler strove to make peace with England and France after Poland was defeated before the start of an active campaign in France? It is not known that when England and France were at war, they planned with Germany, or rather, prepared the aggression against the USSR, which then fought with Finland?
            You really don’t understand. what in this case. Was the option, the conclusion of a separate peace in the west and the joint campaign of the west against the USSR, quite real?
            It actually happened, but in the 41st year.
            Could the USSR hit Hitler in the back? He could, but under certain conditions, and most important of them, an alliance agreement with England and France, otherwise it could result in a catastrophe and war for the USSR against the whole West, and even Japan.
            Some of your children's ideas about the most difficult things.
            Right Napoleon - the main thing is to get involved in the battle, and then we'll see what happens.
            1. 0
              5 October 2016 12: 33
              ". That is, the USSR in 1940 should not have completed the rearmament and reorganization of the army, WITHOUT having allies in Europe, to take and get into an adventure with completely incomprehensible consequences?

              Yes it should. And this would be a war on 2 fronts from the very beginning.
              In addition, the USSR could capture the Romanian oil fields, would have strategic initiates at least at first
              . I remind you that
              By July of the 41st USSR, too, would not have been ready.
            2. 0
              5 October 2016 13: 00
              Quote: Hupfri
              By July of the 41st USSR, too, would not have been ready.

              The USSR would presumably be completely ready for an attack on Germany by November 1941. It was then that 4 main tank plants would have been operating at full capacity (excluding the fifth Voroshilov factory), shipping just a rabid amount of tanks daily for the Red Army. Such a colossal issue, by definition, could not be a peacetime issue.
          4. +1
            4 October 2016 12: 26
            Don't make a deal with Hitler? And to the whole of Europe, which ALREADY before the USSR made a deal with Hitler, you don't want to say that? A very good move for the opponents of the USSR, which, without agreeing to conclude an agreement on NOT an attack with Germany, would remain isolated and with the prospect of being alone against the whole of Europe - Germany, England. France and other "Holland"?
            It’s a direct dream, of the enemies of the USSR, that is what they sought to leave the USSR in isolation.
            1. +1
              4 October 2016 15: 21
              Quote: Ulan
              It’s a direct dream, of the enemies of the USSR, that is what they sought to leave the USSR in isolation.

              Lord, and what kind of country was that? Enemies alone. And no friends. Maybe something was wrong with the country?
            2. +2
              5 October 2016 03: 56
              Quote: rjxtufh
              Maybe something was wrong with the country?

              It's like that. Tashkent front fighter?
      3. +2
        3 October 2016 22: 52
        Again these .... What do you think that 20 million lives of peaceful Soviet citizens are not on Hitler’s conscience (although what conscience is there), but on the conscience of the USSR leadership?
        Did Stalin destroy them, not Hitler? So close to Hitler’s excuse.
        Like he is not to blame. It was Stalin who "allowed" to destroy civilians.
        This is called - agreed. Oh-ho-ho, couch strategists, they all know, they have foreseen everything. all know how.
        It is necessary. do not. Thank God that such "umekhi" did not control the country and the army at that time, as if they would retreat to the Urals and the army had neither tanks nor aircraft.
        1. +1
          6 October 2016 14: 50
          Quote: Ulan
          So close to Hitler’s excuse.
          Like he is not guilty. It was Stalin who "allowed" to destroy peaceful people

          Well, similar, ahem, creatures tend to this.
      4. +1
        3 October 2016 23: 05
        It is not the fault of the USSR that the allies could not be acquired. Apparently you don’t know the story very well if you don’t know why you couldn’t conclude the same treaty on countering Hitler’s aggression in Europe. And don’t know who was pushing Hitler’s aggression to the east.
        The union was concluded when they themselves were squeezed and when they realized that God forbid the USSR does not stand, then they will soon end. because Hitler, if he had defeated the USSR and got at his disposal the gigantic resources of the USSR, no one could resist.
        The British Empire also thundered. and then Germany and Japan, jointly finished off the United States.
        Therefore, they became worried and went to an alliance. They saved themselves.
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 02: 07
          It’s just that your comrade is earning, at the same time trying to feed his opponents ...
          they are not the only one here.
          1. +2
            4 October 2016 12: 20
            I agree with you. Maybe I would not say anything, but for me the topic is very close and painful. The war touched our family very tightly, like hundreds of thousands of families in the USSR.
            I already said that my father, mother, three uncles, and my grandfather on the maternal side fought at my place.
            Father in the 44th commissioned. after 4 injuries, two of which are severe. The surgeons did not dare to remove one of the fragments and he carried it in himself for the rest of his life. He volunteered for the war.
            He also went through the battle of Moscow and the Rzhevskaya "meat grinder". Moreover, the most difficult battles as a "platoon vanka", those who are related to the army know what it means - three days in the trenches and in a hospital or churchyard.
            Then the company commander and deputy. battalion commander.
            One uncle. Uncle Sasha, my mother’s brother, died in the 41st. The second uncle is already his father’s brother. returned disabled, without a hand. Mom came with a zhel.dor. troops to Poznan, there and met the Victory.
            The maternal grandfather, the commander of the partisan detachment, was seriously wounded, and the Central Headquarters of the partisan movement was taken by plane to Moscow to the hospital, where he died of his wounds.
            He was buried in one of the Moscow cemeteries in a mass grave, where on the tablet his name is B. Komissarov.
            My father’s grandfather did not participate in the Second World War, he died in World War I.
            Therefore, all who try to pour dirt on the war and our Victory, engage in falsifications, pour dirt on my loved ones, who have long since passed away and cannot protect themselves.
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 15: 23
              Quote: Ulan
              Therefore, all who try to pour dirt on the war and our Victory, engage in falsifications, pour dirt on my loved ones, who have long since passed away and cannot protect themselves.

              Can you give specific examples? Who, how and when "is pouring dirt on your loved ones who have long passed away and cannot defend themselves"? Or have you already decided to weave them in support of your nonsense?
        2. 0
          4 October 2016 09: 52
          Quote: Ulan
          And do not know who pushed Hitler’s aggression to the east.

          Did someone push Hitler east? Well, enlighten us, who was this insidious?
          Quote: Ulan
          The union was concluded when they pressed themselves

          Those. 29.09.41/XNUMX/XNUMX did the Anglo-Saxons press particularly hard? By whom or by what, if not a secret? Maybe. it pressed the USSR?
          Quote: Ulan
          when they realized that God forbid the USSR will not stand

          And what, September 29.09.41, XNUMX. was there even the slightest chance that the USSR could stand alone? And how much can stand? Month? Two?
          Quote: Ulan
          then they will soon end.

          Why is it that they will end if the USSR would suddenly resist? What threatened them in that case? Anathema from the Kremlin? Was it somehow scary?
          Quote: Ulan
          because Hitler, if he had defeated the USSR and got at his disposal the gigantic resources of the USSR, no one could resist.

          So Hitler got these resources before the beginning of the Second World War, and so he ordered. And something about Britain in the "Battle of Britain" in 1940. perfectly opposed him.
          Quote: Ulan
          The British Empire also thundered. and then Germany and Japan, jointly finished off the United States.

          And you are a big dreamer. You need to write fantastic books.
          Quote: Ulan
          Therefore, they became worried and went to an alliance. They saved themselves.

          We received a favorable offer from Dzhugashvili, and went. Not earlier and not later.
          1. +2
            4 October 2016 11: 54
            You are a funny character. So obviously distort.
            Where are the fantasies? What if Hitler defeated the USSR would he have at his disposal the gigantic resources of the USSR and England's prospects in the battle with Hitler would become deplorable?
            Is this "fanaticism"? Well, bolder, confirm, and we will laugh.
            Learn to understand what is written, apparently with perception you have big problems.
            The end if the USSR had not RESISTED. Is that clear or continue to chew?
            I don’t know what you rested on the date of September 29.0941, 1041st, which you are alluding to so actively. and the fact is the fact - in the XNUMXst USSR stood alone!
            Those deliveries in the 41st year, it’s not even a drop in the ocean, it’s a molecule in the ocean.
            Who pushed Hitler east? What really is all running?
            Actually, I didn’t hire children to educate, but the fact that the West will always justify itself is not a secret.
            Yes, that's just where to put that HUGE array of documents. which indicates that it is the West that is guilty of the fact that World War II became possible and of the fact that Hitler was set against the USSR.
            It is useless to deny this fact.
            For starters, Neville Henderson. Ambassador of England to Germany 37th year -
            "To put it bluntly, Eastern Europe is of no vital interest to England. It could even be argued that it is UNJUSTICE to prevent Germany from completing its unification and preparing for war against the Slavs, provided that these preparations do not harm the British Empire."
            I think the evidence of such a high-ranking English politician. much more significant, your very primitive opinion.
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 11: 55
              Sorry, of course in 1941.
            2. 0
              4 October 2016 15: 32
              Quote: Ulan
              You are a funny character.

              And you are not at all funny.
              Quote: Ulan
              What if Hitler defeated the USSR he would have at his disposal the gigantic resources of the USSR

              He already had them all. By agreement between the USSR and Germany.
              Quote: Ulan
              and England's prospects in the battle with Hitler became deplorable?

              Why is this so? Why in 1940. "Britain's prospects" were not at all deplorable, and she won the "Battle of Britain". And in 1941. would they suddenly become deplorable?
              Quote: Ulan
              The end if the USSR had not RESISTED.

              You are wrong. The End was in another pocket.
              Quote: Ulan
              in the 1041st USSR stood alone!

              Unfortunately, the course of world history is not something that does not support you, but even refutes.
              Quote: Ulan
              Those deliveries in the 41st year, it’s not even a drop in the ocean, it’s a molecule in the ocean.

              Write-write. Paper can stand it.
              Quote: Ulan
              Who pushed Hitler east?

              I think the circumstances. Battle of Britain 1940 he lose. And the neighbor in the east was very unreliable. For a long siege of Britain he needed a strong rear. So he decided to organize it for himself in the summer and fall of 1941.
              Quote: Ulan
              Yes, that's just where to put that HUGE array of documents. which indicates that it is the West that is guilty of the fact that World War II became possible

              It is now generally no one but you are not interested.
          2. +2
            4 October 2016 15: 16
            Favorable offers Dzhugashvili constantly voiced. Only until under ... zeys it caught fire, and the smell of fried, they did not accept offers.
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 17: 17
              Quote: Ulan
              Favorable offers Dzhugashvili constantly voiced.

              If Adik, then yes. And even signed papers with him.
              Quote: Ulan
              Only until under ... zeys it caught fire, and the smell of fried, they did not accept offers.

              But what happened to the Anglo-Saxons on September 29.09.41, XNUMX, that they took and accepted the USSR into their coalition? Yes, and for such an unenviable role?
              Those. I’ll clarify again, it’s not the USSR who took them, ill, somewhere there. And they are him. Carrying chestnuts from the fire.
        3. 0
          5 October 2016 12: 37
          It is not the fault of the USSR that the allies failed to acquire

          Actually, the ruling party of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks in the USSR was just a part of the Third International, recall what this organization was doing?
  26. +2
    3 October 2016 20: 37
    Quote: rjxtufh
    I’ll explain to you later how the war waged by the USSR until September 28, 1941. different from the war after this date.

    Do not be shy, maestro, your revelations are already known here. Explain now and out loud. Bravo in advance, maestro! laughing
    1. +1
      3 October 2016 23: 27
      When there is nothing to argue, then they usually repudiate, then somehow. It would be better to be silent for a while and not be dishonored by such statements.
  27. +1
    3 October 2016 20: 42
    Recently I read about 4 authors about General Lukin and, in conclusion, a copy of his interrogation in captivity. He is scum. Once again I was convinced how many critters, cowardly, venal and mediocre warmed their asses on general posts. And all this was paid with their blood and life by millions of fighters, our grandfathers.
  28. +1
    3 October 2016 20: 43
    Ulan,
    Yes, the Red Army was better prepared for severe frosts

    In our army there were quilted jackets, a quilted jacket is a great invention. Cotton, warm, does not constrain movements. The Germans later also switched to quilted cotton suits.
    1. +2
      3 October 2016 23: 31
      True, the Germans themselves noted the convenience and functionality of the Soviet winter uniform.
      By the winter of 42, they had already developed and produced winter sets of clothes, the development of which was also influenced by our "quilted jackets".
      By the way, the Red Army, in addition to quilted jackets and quilted jackets, also had jackets, also quilted warm jackets, similar to those that I myself wore in the SA in 1974-76.
  29. +1
    3 October 2016 20: 44
    Quote: The Bloodthirster
    On the eve of World War I, Germany was the main trading partner of the Russian Empire.

    Moreover: it was from Krupp that a part of the "Russian" guns was ordered, it was on the German "args" that the "Russian" bombers "Murom" first flew, it was the German company "Vulkan" that supplied the first batches of turbines for "Russian" destroyers of the "Novik" type, and she also brought the first of the "noviks" to a record speed in Russia (but not in the world) of 36 knots full, 37,3 knots maximum - despite the fact that the serial "noviks" made and brought already in Russia did not pull more than 34 knots the fastest , and some (the first Black Sea series) barely 30 issued.

    And the funniest thing is that it was in Germany and Austria-Hungary that some critically important components for the Ishmael type aircrafts were ordered, which the "advanced" industry of the Republic of Ingushetia laid down in 1912, but could not finish on their own during the entire WWI.
    1. +1
      3 October 2016 21: 30
      Thank you.
      The level of industrial development of the so-advertised RI did not cope with the needs of the Army and Navy.
      Opponents, undoubtedly the most brilliant managers and invincible generals, of all times and peoples, did not know about this in their altreality.
      1. +2
        3 October 2016 23: 13
        Yes, what level there did not do aircraft engines. engines for cars did not. as the cars themselves. Ryabushinsky received money (millions) from the government under promises to build an automobile plant in a year. He stole money, he did not build a plant.
        This is at a time when only one Ford was already making cars in the hundreds of thousands.
        During the war, the British and French launched the release of THOUSAND tanks, not a single one in Russia.
        Aviation is basically the assembly of their French kits.
        There were only good flying boats of Grigorovich. In scanty numbers, when in the west aircraft were produced by tens of thousands.
        what kind of planes. which tanks and cars if they didn’t produce any engines or bearings. without which you can’t build an engine.
        Binoculars, sights, rangefinders ... nothing.
        1. +2
          3 October 2016 23: 30
          Quote: Ulan
          aircraft engines did not

          Well, how would they do it. lol For "Muromets" as many as about 40 copies of Russian copies from the German model were released, this is when you need 4 engines for each "Muromets" every year - that is, 2-3 aircraft were provided with their own engines, urrya! laughing
          That is why the "Muromites" had a record level for the entire WWI of non-combat losses - the engines from wear and tear often junked or even refused.

          They also made, also handicraft and small-scale, dozens of copies, copies of English and French engines for "Russian" aircraft of foreign design and mainly foreign production.
          But the crushers are terribly proud that the Russian army before WWI had a record number of "Russian" aircraft and "Russian" armored vehicles lol

          Quote: Ulan
          engines for cars did not. as the cars themselves.

          Russo-Balt has sold about 500 vehicles throughout its 7-year history. Approximately 300 more copies remained in the form of unnecessary spare parts, because their price was much more expensive than foreign counterparts with not the best, and most often much worse quality. But a noticeable part of these cars had engines of their own production - and this was the only such precedent in the history of the "advanced" tsarist industry.
          All other automobile industry enterprises in tsarist Russia were significantly inferior to Russo-Balt both in terms of output, product quality, and production independence. Engines and other units were usually purchased ready-made abroad.

          Quote: Ulan
          only one Ford already made cars in the hundreds of thousands.
          hundreds of thousands = per year =, I specify. During WWI, the release of "tin Lizzie" reached a million.

          The scale of the Russian car industry has lagged far behind, not only from Ford, but even from "backward" Italy with its Fiat and the production of several. thousands of completely own cars per year, including deliveries to "advanced" Russia of ready-made sets for screwdriver assembly. laughing
          1. 0
            4 October 2016 00: 17
            Well, they did it. lol For "Muromets" as many as 40 copies of Russian copies from the German model were released, this is when you need 4 engines for each "Muromets" every year - that is, 2-3 aircraft were provided with their own engines, urrya! laughing

            We didn’t have to. We had rich and strong allies. They fought.
            Marne, Somme, Verdun. .... there were tanks and planes
            We only had to keep the front.
            But the red wanted power
            1. +1
              4 October 2016 11: 38
              Truth? That is, you do not know anything about the February Revolution, as well as who wanted power in the beginning of the 17th and who ruined the army. Denikin at least revered, one of the idols, balls, beauties. footmen and junkers.
          2. +1
            5 October 2016 12: 40
            But in Japan at that time, how many cars were produced? And how many planes did the Japanese produce?
            1. +1
              6 October 2016 07: 00
              At that time, at the beginning of the 20th century, the Japanese invested the most in shipbuilding, especially the military, and quickly surpassed the Russian Empire: in something already before the REV, in something shortly after it, by the middle-end of WWII - in all respects , both quantitatively and qualitatively.

              Cars and planes for Japan were considered much less relevant, therefore, in these areas, the Japanese lagged behind not only the developed powers, but even the Russian Empire.
              However, already before the WWI and in this direction, they had obvious progress.

              At the same time, the Republic of Ingushetia began the first experiments in aviation and the automobile industry more or less simultaneously with the developed powers, but then it stuck to the end of its existence at the stage of artisanal small-scale production, with the imitation of foreign models.

              Japan, on the contrary, starting much later, very quickly and confidently proceeded to create its own, independent industry.
        2. +1
          3 October 2016 23: 55
          Quote: Ulan
          Aviation is basically the assembly of their French kits.

          There were also English ones. Basically, "sopvichi", of which there were much more "Russian" aviation than "Muromets".
          There were even the Dutch Fokkers.

          Although crystal bakers, measuring the level of development of industry and shares in world production by volume, are proud of the 5th place of the Republic of Ingushetia in 1901-1913 - even countries lagging behind in terms of gross volumes, such as Italy or Holland, imported high-tech goods into the "advanced" tsarist Russia, and not the other way around.

          But the most massive "Russian" planes were "farmers", "newpors", "voisins", etc., the number of which was an order of magnitude or more exceeding those several hundred Grigorovich's boats. And even those boats flew on engines of foreign design, and most often - of purely foreign production.

          Quote: Ulan
          sights, rangefinders ...

          The fire control systems on Russian ships were of English design, with a device for automatic calculation of VIR and a range finder also of English manufacture.

          "Obukhov" naval guns 120mm and 152mm were of Kane's design.
          "Obukhov" naval guns 102mm, which were armed with since 1910. later destroyers RI, were created with the participation of Vickers engineers and on the basis of an earlier Vickers gun of the same caliber.
          Turbines for "noviks" were made first in Germany, then in England, then in Russia - but according to the English model and with the help of British engineers. Compare these facts with the lamentations of crystal bakers about the eternal British Russophobia.

          And so in everything wherever you dig.
    2. 0
      3 October 2016 23: 39
      important components for the "Izmail" type of paintwork, which the "advanced" industry of the Republic of Ingushetia laid down in 1912, but was never able to complete it on its own during the entire WWI.

      The fleet stood the whole war at the pier. With a geography like our European fleet, this is a subservient to the army. The ships never came in handy.
      They were not very famous in World War II.
      1. 0
        4 October 2016 00: 15
        Quote: Hupfri
        The fleet stood the whole war at the pier.

        Not all.
        And not because the fleet was in WWI as if Russia did not need it.

        The war in the Baltic was fought from the Russian side mainly by small ships - minesweepers, minesags, destroyers (most often in the role of minesags). Sometimes cruisers participated, but they were inactive. The old battleships "Tsesarevich" and "Slava", mainly "Slava", were puffed up for the entire Russian armored fleet, - including the newer EBRs of the "Andrey Pervozvanny" series and, as it were, dreadnoughts of the "Sevastopol" type - which hid outside the capital, making the look of being guarded. For they were not capable of anything serious.

        Despite the considerable number of Russian submarines and submariners, they did not glorify themselves with anything except self-flooding.

        For comparison: the British submariners on the British submarines, which were only 3-4 for the entire WWII in the Baltic, during the same time achieved success on large warships, like the entire Baltic Fleet did mine operations (and didn’t get any results on the Baltic Fleet).
        For transport, the effectiveness of the British submariners was several times higher than that of the entire BF.

        At the World Cup, despite the overwhelming superiority of the Russian fleet in all quantitative parameters, the situation was not much better.

        Quote: Hupfri
        They were not very famous in World War II.

        Oddly enough, the Russian "battleships" in WWII worked more actively and efficiently than in WWII. Including because they were no longer overvalued, and there was no need to take special care of them.

        But they did not work at the same time as battleships - they were not suitable for this role in WWI at all. Gunboats, floating batteries - that was their role. Despite the fact that much cheaper, and more efficient ships would be suitable for this role.

        Soviet submariners in World War II also showed themselves better than Russian predecessors in WWI.

        This is despite the fact that, unlike the Russian fleet before the WWII, the Soviet before the Second World War had a much lower priority in allocating funds - and it justified them much better.
      2. +1
        4 October 2016 11: 34
        Well. You yourself concluded that there were very stupid people in the tsarist government who swelled a lot of money into dreadnought nobody needed. instead of providing shells with land artillery. Bravo.
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 12: 39
          Dreadnought would be very necessary if they were real battleships, with sufficient protection and the ability to conduct a squadron battle against a strong enemy.
          Or at least real battlecruisers, with their high speed, allowing you to get away from a stronger opponent and overtake a weaker one.

          But the Russian "battleships" in the record time of their construction had time to become obsolete - by that time developed countries had already begun to make superdreadnoughts.

          As a result, RI turned out to be neither a candle to God nor a damn poker: in terms of protection, they lagged behind not only the real battleships of the same time of commissioning, and much earlier German ones - even from German LKR, were somewhere on a par with the English LKR - but without their speed and firepower. What is the use of a weak vessel with the speed of a battleship and armor of a battle cruiser? The Russian "battleships" did not achieve a single success in naval combat during the entire WWI, and they kept away from a possible battle with a worthy enemy.

          As a result, some "patriots", in order to justify the obvious failure of the Republic of Ingushetia in this respect, are trying to lie that Russia built its "sort of dreadnoughts" not for WWI, but for the possible someday lol future revenge against Japan.
          Yeah, yeah, that same Japan, which by the beginning of WWII had already built the Congo-class LCR, and by the middle of WWII had switched to the Fuso-class battleships, having risen to a level unattainable for RI and continuing to increase the gap.
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 13: 36
            Yes, I completely agree with you and read the history of the creation of "frightened ships", as they called in naval circles, dreadnoughts of the "Sevastopol" type, which, apart from strong artillery, had no advantages.
            And even by this time in the same English shipbuilding they had already switched to larger calibers and began to build superdreadnoughts.
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 14: 22
              Strong artillery is also looking to compare with.

              Even before WWII, the British switched to 343mm and 381mm, the Japanese mastered 356mm starting from the Congo, the French mastered 340mm, the Germans held on to a different concept for a long time - but they also switched, starting with the Bayerns, to 380mm. Against the backdrop of superdreadnought calibers, 12 "is not impressive.

              Well, well, but at least in comparison with earlier counterparts from developed countries? It seems that 12 Russian guns are at least slightly, but stronger than 10 German guns of the same caliber on the Kaisers and Koenigs?
              Wrong again! The Germans partial automation of loading allowed to increase the rate of fire, as a result of 10 German barrels per unit time fired as many shells as Russian 12 barrels.

              True, the new Russian 471kg shells were heavier than German 406kg and especially English 380kg. But this had a lower initial speed, and even muzzle energy lower than that of the Germans - the poor quality of Russian weapons steel made it possible to reduce the powder charge in Russian guns.
              As a result, at small and medium combat distances, the armor penetration of Russian shells was noticeably lower than that of probable opponents, heavy shells won only at large distances, from 100-120 kbt - where the probability of being hit was insignificant, and the damage could only be done on lightly armored plots.

              And the booking of the German battleships is more than one and a half times more powerful than that of the Russian "sowing".
  30. +1
    3 October 2016 21: 02
    Quote: rjxtufh
    And who would let him? Could give nothing at all.

    Yes Yes Yes. The winning state, with the strongest army in the world and the second largest economy in the world, would behave like the current Russian Federation: they would sit and dutifully wait for what "friends and partners" would say, what they would allocate, and whether they would allocate at least something laughing
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 00: 05
      Yes Yes Yes. The victorious state, with the strongest army in the world and the second economy in the world, would behave like the current RF

      America accounted for 45% of 70% of world production.
      How much was the second largest economy in the world?
      They had a bomb, we didn’t.
      They had bombers, we didn’t.
      They shouted at us in Iran and we quietly cleaned.
      1. +2
        4 October 2016 00: 21
        In Korea, the Americans had to settle for a "combat draw" after heavy losses. At the same time, they realized the naivety of their Dropshot plan, feeling the effectiveness of the Soviet air defense.
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 09: 03
          Well, it’s after the war that we’ve already come to our senses, and the bomb has already been compromised.
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 12: 47
            Yeah, yeah, and the first satellite in the world we stole, and the world's first thermonuclear bomb ...
            Who? Martians, or what? laughing

            The USSR developed its technology for the most complex, long and expensive stage in the production of nuclear weapons: isotope separation. The Americans for a long time tried to use diffusion, then switched to centrifuges after us. In the design of the bomb itself, the Soviet project also had its own achievements.
            1. +2
              4 October 2016 15: 12
              I agree. Only an absolutely illiterate person can think that it is enough to "steal" blueprints and technology and a bomb in his pocket.
              Then it is not clear why Somalia did not make such a bomb or the mumbo-jumbo tribe in Africa.
              What’s easier, I stole and did, but the fact that you need to have a scientific school, highly qualified specialists (scientists, engineers, workers, organizers, etc.) and a developed industry ready to carry out this project is a mystery for them with seven seals .
              Any secrets could only accelerate the development and production and nothing more.
              The bomb was made in the USSR independently and, first of all, because the USSR was technically, technologically, intellectually ready to carry out this work and did not start it from scratch, theoretical developments in the USSR were going on even before the war. It is a fact.
  31. +3
    3 October 2016 21: 07
    Quote: Hupfri
    No need to bring your country to such a position when you have to wage such wars.

    Do you think that such your stupidities at the level of spherical states in a vacuum have some kind of informational value? laughing

    As for the complete absence of allies in the USSR, I congratulate you, sir, on yet another lie. There was a completely conscientious ally - Mongolia, whom we helped in 1939 and from which we received quite tangible help in 1941-1945.

    And what are the Allied Saxons and Frenchmen standing as allies, it became clear at the beginning of September 1939, when they calmly threw Poland, hoping for them.
    1. 0
      3 October 2016 23: 58
      And what are the Allied Saxon and French like allies, it became clear at the beginning of September 1939, when they calmly threw Poland hoping for them

      Do not talk nonsense. This Poland threw them. At first, having mobilized a 3 millionth couple with the Germans, unleashed a war, then the Polish army rushed to flee. Can you name any battles in Poland?
      The losses of the Polish army in that company were scanty. 60 thousand no more. Percent 5. The officers abandoned their soldiers as soon as they realized that an easy walk to Germany would not work. And they fled to the East. Then the soldiers went home.
      Then they formed an Anders army from some of these officers. But they refused to fight. Although there were battles near Stalingrad. Then they were fused to Iran. They were hardly squeezed out of Iran into Palestine. Then there were battles near El Alamein and Montgomery needed every bayonet. He pulled up the New Zealand division, both the Indian and the volunteers from South Africa and Australia, but the Poles did not want to fight here either. Only in the 43rd they were kicked into Italy.
      . There was a completely conscientious ally - Mongolia

      Tuva was still there.
      Do you know.? And also Mao Dzedong.
      1. +3
        4 October 2016 00: 33
        Quote: Hupfri
        This Poland threw them. At first, having mobilized a 3 millionth couple with the Germans, unleashed a war, then the Polish army rushed to flee

        Sure sure. Poles attacked the Germans in Gleivitz, Poles - why would Goebbels lie laughing

        However, the Germans actually picked up the Volksdeutsche of Polish descent and Polish appearance to attack the radio station. So Goebbels, like you, wasn’t completely 100% lol

        What is characteristic is that this did not cancel the responsibilities of England and France, even if you had told the truth here for a change.
        And nothing can change the fact that, having declared a "strange war," Britain and France were shamefully inactive.

        Quote: Hupfri
        Can you name any battles in Poland?

        Well, at least Wester-Platte. The Polish analogue of the Brest Fortress. If you do not know this - do not judge everyone by yourself.

        Quote: Hupfri
        Do you know.? And also Mao Dzedong.

        Well, they lied, as if the USSR did not have a single ally-and then they themselves found two more laughing

        But Tuva was shallow, and Mao Jie Dong not only did not have statehood at that time, he also needed help, but did not provide it.
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 08: 49
          Well, at least Wester-Platte. The Polish analogue of the Brest Fortress. If you do not know this - do not judge everyone by yourself.

          This is where the infantry company spent two weeks in the basement?
          You can also add an attack of Polish lancers on tanks. You do not know? What a pity...
          But Tuva was shallow

          You're lying like usual. In terms of population, the gender of Mongolia is a very worthy ally. So it was they who took Berlin, from it, Mikhalych
          Sure sure. Poles attacked the Germans in Gleivitz, Poles - why would Goebbels lie

          Goebbels did not always lie. All the same, the former socialist. One read books with Lenin. We at the same time Ribentropu shook hands and did not blush
          You need to know the history, and not repeat the stories from the Uchpedgiz textbook for the 56th year. To begin with, the Poles began the massacre of the German population.
          1. +2
            4 October 2016 11: 26
            What a vinaigrette. Well, let's start with the fact that the Poles really organized the massacre of the German population and no one justifies them. It is not clear who this "we" is who shook hands with Ribbentrop and why these "we" had to blush?
            At least these "we" did not shake hands with Hitler like a certain gentlemen Daladier and Chamberlain. By the way, too, did not blush.
            Al forgot?
          2. +1
            4 October 2016 11: 36
            Quote: Hupfri
            You can also add an attack of Polish lancers on tanks. You do not know?

            No, you are not in the know.
            In reality, the ulans attacked the German infantry when it was not ready to repulse the attack, and even successfully attacked, and when the tanks appeared, the cavalry had to be torn. Then the zhurnalyugi made cranberry cranberries out of this episode.

            By the way, during our counterattack near Moscow there were also similar episodes - cavalrymen carried out several quite successful attacks in the horse ranks.

            Quote: Hupfri
            So it means they took Berlin

            You have already begun to brazenly distort the opponent’s words, trying to ascribe to me your own inventions.
            Fine - by this you give out the so obvious truth that you have nothing to object to.
            And who said what, it's not a question to clarify: "all moves are recorded" tongue

            Quote: Hupfri
            Goebbels did not always lie.

            And again you are trying to dodge very stupidly and inventively. What you and Goebbels, for a change, told the truth, I already wrote above.

            Maybe also answer my questions above for a change? laughing

            Quote: Hupfri
            We at the same time Ribentropu shook hands and did not blush

            Phi, how miserable. Work on an obsolete training manual, or what? Or is it really secret for you what is a diplomatic protocol? All hands shook while diplomatic relations were maintained, and no one blushed. Find an exception - wait nobel laughing

            Quote: Hupfri
            History need to know

            Your advice and yes to you in ears.

            Quote: Hupfri
            do not repeat stories from the textbook

            In textbooks they write truth much more often than in delusional fantasies of an ignoramus.

            Quote: Hupfri
            the Poles began the massacre of the German population.

            Discover America. Bike invented. And what, someone here claimed that the Poles are angels in the flesh?
            Moreover: the Poles, confident in the support of England and France, behaved with exorbitant arrogance. Jackals as they are.
            But, strangely enough, with all this, Hitler was the aggressor.
            1. +2
              4 October 2016 11: 52
              Colleague, are you tired of the mind to teach absolutely illiterate, who had read the Rezun-Solonins, through and through the pro-Western Russophobe under the name HAPFRI?
              You read his pearls and wonder how much a person can be fooled by false fabrications, or rather his perseverance, as in 90, once again reanimate the shaft of lies in a new way ...
        2. +1
          4 October 2016 13: 38
          Not "shamefully inactive", but simply betrayed Poland.
          The reason is clear, the hope is that after Poland, Hitler will continue the "Drang nach Osten" so desired by the Anglo-Saxons. Therefore, they did not interfere.
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 15: 38
            Quote: Ulan
            The reason is clear, the hope is that after Poland, Hitler will continue the "Drang nach Osten" so desired by the Anglo-Saxons.

            Those. Do you seriously assume that the French and British, declaring war on Germany, really assumed that Germany in such a situation (in a state of being out with the British and French) would also attack the USSR?
            How are you feeling?
            1. +1
              6 October 2016 07: 42
              How do you feel about yourself?
              Something to Hitler did not prevent the state of war with England, in 41 attack the USSR, why would such recklessness, if not a carte blanche of the West for it?
              Your Churchill, learning about the attack on June 22, exclaimed, Thank God, England is saved! You will deny it?
              In this case, doubt arises in your mental and certainly mental health.
  32. +2
    3 October 2016 23: 01
    Quote: Hupfri
    When others fought against fascism.

    OU! Intrigues, scandals, investigations, discoveries! lol laughing

    Tell us how the United States fought against fascism until 1943, and compare the powerful attempts of the Americans with the miserable successes of the Red Army at the same time.
    Tell us how great the US contribution to this struggle was until the summer of 1944.
    I am especially looking forward to the story of the victorious American army at the Kasserinsky pass.
    You have somehow threatened to tell such marvelous stories, but since then you promise and promise everything (C) laughing

    You can also tell us about the struggle of the Western world against fascism in Spain from 1936 to 1939, when Germany and Italy openly brought in significant numbers of their cadre soldiers there to help Franco's fascist rebellion, while England and France diligently "did not notice", but did everything they could to prevent Soviet aid to a legitimate and democratically elected republican government.

    How particularly vividly did this struggle of the Western world with fascism manifest itself in 1938. during the Anschluss of Austria and the partition of Czechoslovakia with the blessing of all the same England and France.

    We are waiting, sir. Maestro, your way out! The audience applauds in advance !!! laughing laughing laughing
  33. +1
    3 October 2016 23: 09
    Quote: rjxtufh
    You answer in vain to this user.

    Well, depending on what point of view. To the understanding public Pts even fun from your statements!
    And what a disgrace to you from these statements - well, what can you do, such is the proportion of a bad clown.

    Quote: rjxtufh
    There are great doubts about its adequacy.

    Oh, who would say (C) laughing
  34. +1
    3 October 2016 23: 45
    Hapfri,
    Same question,
    - Consider, undoubtedly, a great manager and economist, how much labor, energy costs are borne by the one who received it in a toll-free form.
    Then we will consider the issue with ore, check your erudition in knowledge, what is the percentage of iron, is economically viable for processing, and which is not.
    Well, bring the balance, all that is delivered from the USSR in the general balance of the state economy of Germany, can you?
    Or besides unintelligible blah blah blah blah, you are no use?
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 00: 10
      Okay, bloodsucker, I went to sleep here I have a deep night
      1. +2
        4 October 2016 00: 17
        "And how dysal, how dysal" (C) laughing
      2. +2
        4 October 2016 11: 54
        Well, of course, of course, in the united gang of America, the night ... sleep.
  35. +1
    4 October 2016 00: 01
    Two trolls arranged srach.
    They themselves raise the rating.
    And six months ago, one could quote. "This is what (the cross) minus the life-giving one does"
  36. 0
    4 October 2016 00: 23
    Quote: Hupfri
    We didn’t have to. We had rich and strong allies. They fought

    Well, how not to be proud of the role of the six with strong masters! laughing
    But the sixes are not supposed to share in production - only scraps. And the loss.
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 08: 37

      Well, how not to be proud of the role of the six with strong masters!

      The tramp style is from a completely different era - the era of the hegemony of the proletariat.
      It is the USSR that has been kinking for three years alone. Thanks to the perspicacious leadership. And the Russian Empire was an equal player. Even Romania after the war received a huge territory - Transylvania.
  37. +3
    4 October 2016 00: 40
    Quote: rjxtufh

    A diesel engine is a priori harder than a gasoline engine. And it burns no worse.

    Manuals do not want to update the CHARGED TROL? You and others like you have been repeating this from post to post for more than a year. Your nonsense is impossible to read! How can black be called white and white red? What makes you think that diesel is more complicated than gasoline? This is thermal physics. KARNO PRINCIPLE, school course. The efficiency of a diesel engine is higher than that of a gasoline engine, that is, having spent an equal amount of fuel, a diesel engine will travel a greater distance than a gasoline one. A diesel engine is difficult to manufacture, but in operation it is almost an order of magnitude simpler than a gasoline one. The gasoline engine is extremely moody. There were cases when mice gnawing wiring incapacitated a tank division (Don Front, November 1942). And about the fire hazard, I don’t even want to comment. This is TOTAL UNKNOWLEDGE OF PHYSICS, MATCHES and just intellectual witlessness.
    1. +1
      4 October 2016 10: 03
      Quote: Proxima
      What makes you think that diesel is more complicated than gasoline?

      Well, really, where did I get what everyone knows. One diesel fuel equipment is worth it.
      Quote: Proxima
      The efficiency of a diesel engine is higher than that of a gasoline engine, that is, having spent an equal amount of fuel, the diesel engine will travel a greater distance than gasoline.

      This is economical. This has nothing to do with the cost of the motor, there is no need to distort it.
      Quote: Proxima
      A diesel engine is difficult to manufacture, but in operation it is almost an order of magnitude simpler than a gasoline one.

      Really? What, tell us, unaware.
      Quote: Proxima
      The gasoline engine is extremely moody.

      Yes? Everything is more wonderful and more wonderful.
      Quote: Proxima
      There were cases when mice gnawing wiring incapacitated a tank division

      And there were also cases when a tank division was disabled by shells. And this is, of course, a "penny" in the "diesel" piggy bank. In your opinion, of course.
      Quote: Proxima
      And about the fire hazard, I don’t even want to comment. This is TOTAL UNKNOWLEDGE OF PHYSICS, MATCHES and just intellectual witlessness.

      Darling, a shell fragment, this is not a broom. A fuel tank is not a bucket. Try to figure it out for yourself once and for all.
      In addition, gasoline burns vapors. And the "diesel" burns by itself. Therefore, burns from it are MUCH stronger and more dangerous in terms of consequences.
    2. +1
      4 October 2016 15: 04
      That's right, that's why all the time they tried to introduce diesel in aviation (on the Er-2) and in the navy (German "pocket" battleships).
  38. +1
    4 October 2016 09: 07
    Quote: rjxtufh
    You are wrong. France won the war (see papers, including the German Surrender Act). In addition, due to the insignificance of losses, she also won from the war. And the Soviet propaganda about the "side chair" today is of little interest to anyone.

    Yes, it is felt that it is broadcasting a product of the modern gay-European society. Absolute cynicism and contempt for other peoples and pride in belonging to the caste of the "chosen".
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 10: 37
      Absolute cynicism and contempt for other nations

      Do you see cynicism in regret over our losses in the war? Really collective farm ideas so stuck in Moscow. What century is it in the yard?
      1. +2
        4 October 2016 11: 16
        Regret? What kind. after they themselves raised this beast of Hitler and threw it at us, and now they "regret"? What are you cute about?
        if England and France still in the 39th fulfilled their obligations to Poland and crushed Hitler and would not have regretted our losses.
        They are guilty of the fact that we have such losses. Hypocrisy is also an ... awe, not regret.
        I would also be pleased to regret if Hitler had arranged this genocide not in our territory but in Europe.
        And then throughout the war they served the German "heroes" who were in the factories, who were in brothels, but now you see, they are "sorry."
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 11: 23
          Regret? What kind. after they themselves raised this beast of Hitler and threw it at us, and now they "regret"? What are you cute about?

          Stop. Is that Russian patriots raised the Beast?
          And you did not participate in this in any way? I there, above, summarized the degree of your participation.
          1. +2
            4 October 2016 11: 59
            You, the Anglo-Saxons, raised a brown Beast, we, in the image of Red Russia, had to feed your ancestors with land, I don’t want at all, in 1945 did you choke, do you want a new one?
            Expat, remember, no matter how you fuss about it, so you don’t chat, but if you have to fight, then again, as before, we will feed you land until it is completely destroyed.
            Russia is not a country in whatever form it exists. That would be like yours and your Masters dreaming of victory over it.
            We can lose a battle, a series of battles, but Victory in the end, like Truth, is always ours.
          2. +1
            4 October 2016 13: 49
            Well, that was the beginning of a frank scam and supposedly not understanding. No dear, I clearly wrote, Hitler nurtured the west, the very Hitler who killed 27 million of our citizens.
            And now the citizens of this vile ... westerner feignedly regret our victims. Gentlemen are well settled. Just don’t think that we all forgot. Remember.
            You did not answer anything except fables a la Mr. Rezun. Neither concise nor detailed.
            By the way, who is not in the know and the Second World War was launched not by Hitler, but by the West on September 3, 1939.
            On September 1, the German-Polish war began. which lasted two days.
            And only with the entry into the war on September 3, France and England with their colonies, did the world war begin.
            This is by no means an excuse for Hitler’s aggression, it’s just a historical fact.
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 15: 50
              Quote: Ulan
              And now the citizens of this vile ... westerner mockly regret our victims.

              West, not west. Fake, not fake. And they are sorry.
              The worst part is that in some of you this is somehow not very observed. Believe me, this is a very unhealthy sign.
              Quote: Ulan
              By the way, who is not in the know and the Second World War was launched not by Hitler, but by the West on September 3, 1939.
              On September 1, the German-Polish war began. which lasted two days.

              Yes, give up these "revelations" of yours. Today they are of no interest to anyone.
          3. 0
            4 October 2016 15: 47
            Quote: Hupfri
            Stop. Is that Russian patriots raised the Beast?

            Well done, Hapfrey. I caught verbiage and hollow breeds by the tail.
            1. +1
              6 October 2016 07: 45
              Mdya ... all the same, those who claim that you have a pretty good problem with your mental and moral qualities are .... [
              quote = rjxtufh] The worst part is that in some of you this is somehow not very observed. Believe me, this is a very unhealthy sign. [/ Quote]
              Do you admit that you have problems due to an unhealthy attitude and understanding of events in Europe 30-40 years of the 20th century?
  39. +1
    4 October 2016 11: 55
    Quote: Hupfri
    And the Russian Empire was an equal player.

    Yah. Equal players manage on their own, and RI received from the allies about half of its light weapons, about a third of ammunition (much larger in some categories) and almost all of the high-tech equipment.

    Equal players hold on a par with the enemy, and RI has nothing to boast of in the WWII, except for the Brusilovsky breakthrough, but the whole history of the WWII on the eastern front is full of failures, losses and retreats of the Russian army. This despite the significant numerical advantage of the Russian army throughout the war.

    Equal players have a significant share in the gain, and they can determine it themselves, and Russia kept the carrots under their noses in the form of an agreement, in which Russia was not a party at all, and the participants - England and France - were represented by dummies, not having neither a big name, nor a high rank.
    With about the same fake agreement, the Entente fooled the Arabs, whom they frankly threw after the WWII - and I see no reason why they should behave differently with the Russians than with the Arabs.

    Equal players, yeah. British submarines in the Baltic, being in scanty numbers, were at the level of the entire Baltic Fleet in terms of efficiency - well, also a kind of equality of three or four submarines and a heap of "combat" ships. laughing
    At first, the Black Sea also had "equality" with the Turkonese, but the Black Sea Fleet initially had a huge numerical superiority - but was in no hurry to realize it.
    And when this superiority became overwhelming, it was also limited to the role of gunboats, landing carriers and hunters of vehicles or feluks.
    And in episodes when the forces were comparable, the Russian fleet showed delicacy и shyness.
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 13: 07
      Equal players have a significant share in the gain, and they can determine it themselves, while Russia kept the carrot under its nose in the form of an agreement,

      The Reds, having committed an act of high treason and rebelled in the rear of a belligerent country, made peace with Germany as a common enemy and entered into friendly relations with it. Thus, the Reds deprived themselves of the right to any acquisitions after the victory. They also refused. A world without annexations and indemnities. This is their slogan. Although the Lenins paid the indemnity to the Germans as pretty.
      In addition, the Bolsheviks published a secret diplomatic treaty, which put themselves outside the diplomatic field. No one wanted to have anything to do with them. Reds deprived Russia of victory just a stone's throw from triumph
      Yah. Equal players manage on their own, and RI received from the allies about half of its light weapons, about a third of ammunition (much larger in some categories) and almost all of the high-tech equipment.

      The USSR only from the USA received a fifth of its gross product, while you consider it a great country
      1. +2
        4 October 2016 13: 27
        Lend-lease, as a percentage of all deliveries-England -40%. Already how England fought from 1940 to 1944, you can not tell, no way.
        USSR, for the entire time of the war-10%, of the level of all supplies
        Thus, Lend-Lease tanks accounted for 12,3% of the total number of tanks produced / delivered to the USSR in 1941-1945.
        The share of foreign equipment in revenues in the domestic fleet amounted to 13%. True, here too the allies refused to supply the USSR with the pride of their Air Force — the strategic bombers B-17, B-24 and B-29, of which 35 were produced during the war. And at the same time, it was precisely these machines that the Soviet Air Force needed most.
        If we take all the Soviet guns and mortars as a whole (revenues for the war - 526 thousand), then the share of foreign guns in it will be only 2%.

        According to the data summarized in diagram No. 2, it can be seen that even for the main types of deliveries, the share of Lend-Lease products in the total volume of production and deliveries to the USSR does not exceed 28%. In general, the share of Lend-Lease products in the total volume of materials, equipment, food, machinery, raw materials, etc., produced and delivered to the USSR. Usually estimated at 4%.

        So, what kind of knowledge do you have in mathematics, that you have a fifth grade, when in fact from 100% only 10%
        Source: http://statehistory.ru/35/Lend-liz--Mify-i-realno
        st /

        So your "knowledge" on the topic of Lend-Lease, again ... NO.

        Whether the USSR could cope with the war without Lend’s land, yes, would it cope, even if the war would be a little longer, but there would be more victims, but the result would be the same, an absolute fact.
        So for the land lease, thanks to the Americans, but nothing more.
        Hiding the whole war behind the backs of a USSR soldier, taking a gold pay, one cruiser Edinburgh was worth something, it’s not quite so pretty to say, but what can you do, capitalism is with a bloody mug, and even if it’s crazy, there is crazy profit.
        1. +1
          4 October 2016 14: 03
          We add that RI in WWI could not even provide itself with rifles (40% of foreign supplies, a severe shortage in the first months of the war) and cartridges for them, more than 50% of machine guns were received from abroad, having only 8 each for an infantry regiment.

          The USSR provided itself with small arms completely. The scanty numbers of riflemen obtained by Lend-Lease were interesting for educational purposes.

          RI practically did not produce its own aircraft engines, the USSR provided its basic needs itself.
          And so on on all counts.
        2. 0
          4 October 2016 15: 40
          So, what kind of knowledge do you have in mathematics, that you have a fifth grade, when in fact from 100% only 10%

          Who gave you the right to rate me?
          I know very well how our USSR drew interest.
          The cubic kilometers of firewood chopped by convicts were compared with American high-octane gasoline - here are the percentages.
          Only the illiterate nonsense Kaganovich was not honored to build oil refineries. After all, the main thing in a collective farm economy is not quality but quantity. And how would we fight with dry tanks, I don’t know
          All powder plants remained in Ukraine. So you make at least a million machine guns and cannons, they would have nothing to charge. The Americans gave us gunpowder. When the Germans stood near Moscow
          4% of Lend-Lease is a tale invented by agitators during the period of the fight against cringing before the West.
          That is, when a Russian soldier looked at how they live in Europe. And how he lives, the builder of communism.
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 16: 18
            Quote: Hupfri
            Who gave you the right to rate me?

            You gave everyone such a right, crawling out into a public place with your illiterate statements.

            Quote: Hupfri
            I know very well how our USSR drew interest.

            You know little about how your messages show.
            If you think you know "real" percentages best, please provide your numbers, their sources and justifications. Without this, against the well-known statistics, your childish claims are no more spitting.

            Quote: Hupfri
            Only the illiterate nonsense Kaganovich was not honored to build oil refineries.

            Once again you turned ... laughing
            1. And why didn’t you please Kaganovich, who was, first and foremost, the People’s Commissar of Railways?
            He was also the People's Commissar of the oil and fuel industry, but not for long, in 1939-1940, and at the same time continued to engage in his main activities.

            2. The relevant industries before our war developed before these years, and during them, and later.
            Bakeries usually "do not notice" that there were only a few hundreds of cars and tractors in Ingushetia, and during the first five-year plans they began to be produced and used by tens or hundreds of thousands, respectively, the consumption of motor fuel increased by orders of magnitude in comparison with Tsarist Russia, and the USSR provided this. Incl. creation and expansion of oil refineries.

            3. Including, the Moscow oil refinery in Kapotnya was built in 1938. And this was far from the only Soviet factory built after the revolution.

            Quote: Hupfri
            4% Lend-Lease - a tale invented by agitators

            Do your bikes cost more? You cannot even give specific numbers.
            And we already gave you a lot of numbers, and not one could you argue with argument.
            So you can put your tongue where it is more appropriate to be lol

            Speaking of stories and tales, yes! So where are the promised stories about the great contribution of the United States to the fight against fascism before the Second World War? laughing lol laughing
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 20: 18
              Bakeries usually "do not notice" that there were only a few hundreds of cars and tractors in Ingushetia, and during the first five-year plans they began to be produced and used by tens or hundreds of thousands

              Farmers do not want to understand that the growth rate of the economy of the Republic of Ingushetia was the highest in the world. Yes, in the 13th year there were few cars. But by the 16th year, 5 car factories were founded .. The famous AMO is, in particular, the Ryabushinsky plant. By the thirties, RI confidently entered the five most developed countries in the world.
              You can’t even give any specific numbers

              And you? All your figures are from Sovinformburo materials.
              Khrushch came up with these 4% so that he wouldn’t have to pay a lease for Lend, well, in the course of the campaign to combat cringing.
              You yourself are not funny? Do you believe in 4%? Students, Aerial Cobra, Marauders, Curtis, Sherman, armored personnel carriers, amphibians, jeeps, motorcycles, radio stations, radars, gasoline, aluminum, rails wagons and locomotives ... Your numbers smell like mouse poop.
              . And what did Kaganovich not please you

              Do you know the concept of cracking?
              This is when you can get a lot of high-quality gasoline from oil.
              But we did it easier. Light fractions were removed, the rest was poured onto the ground. Only 100 kg of gasoline was produced from a ton of oil. A aviation generally several kilograms. So why should I love your Kaganovich.
          2. +1
            6 October 2016 07: 55
            Quote: Hupfri
            All powder plants remained in Ukraine

            Is it just that everything remained in Ukraine? All 100% of all plants?
            You, my dear, are not just lying, you are exclusively lying, the realities are somewhat different.
            I’m not even going to look for other sources, this is enough for your short-sighted outlook
            https://topwar.ru/75333-evakuaciya-zavodov-unikal
            neyshaya-operaciya-velikoy-otechestvennoy-voyny.h
            tml
        3. +1
          4 October 2016 16: 06
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          USSR, for the entire time of the war-10%, of the level of all supplies

          Honey, what should you hit on the head with, so that the information somehow penetrates there?
          The fact that the Red Army was already in 1942. (if it had suddenly happened) all starved to death, is it very difficult to understand?
          That in the USSR there would have been no aircraft cooler than I-16 without imported gasoline and thermal power plants, is this somehow understandable?
          That in the USSR there would be no 57-mm ZIS-2, 85-mm S-53 and other long barrels, can this be somehow understood?
          There would be no trucks. Conveyors.
          And many, many different things.
          And throw the fraudulent account. It is not the total weight that matters, but the range of supplies. "small spool but precious". This was just the case.
          Quote: The Bloodthirster
          So for the land lease, thanks to the Americans, but nothing more.

          Nope. For the Lend-Lease Americans got the whole world. And to the performer, i.e. The USSR also got some crumbs from the master's table.
          1. +1
            4 October 2016 16: 31
            Quote: rjxtufh
            What do you need to hit on the head with your head so that the information somehow penetrates there?

            Knock yourself on the head. In order for illiterate fantasies to fly out, maybe something meaningful would get inside.
            So far, all that you are carrying here is unreasonable nonsense.

            Quote: rjxtufh
            The fact that the Red Army was already in 1942. (if it had suddenly happened) all died out of hunger

            Justify. Funny in advance laughing

            Quote: rjxtufh
            That in the USSR there would have been no aircraft cooler than I-16 without imported gasoline and thermal power plants, is this somehow understandable?

            Poor thing! For you, the existence of such aircraft as the Yak-1, LaGG-3, MiG-3, Pe-2, Il-2, Tu-2 and so on is already classified before the Second World War! laughing

            And after all, they flew on something a few years before the Lend-Lease, how could it be ... laughing

            Quote: rjxtufh
            Throw a scam account.

            What is it fraudulent? That which is unpleasant to you, is not consistent with your mythology and smashes it to smithereens? But with the real story and real facts it is much better combined tongue
            1. 0
              4 October 2016 19: 51
              For you, the existence of such aircraft as the Yak-1, LaGG-3, MiG-3, Pe-2, Il-2, Tu-2 and so on is already classified before the Second World War!

              You generally know how these machines were adopted.
              The Yak-1 practically did not pass the tests. He was allowed into the series, modifying directly in the army. The wings fell off, the skin fell off, the engine overheated, the landing gear broke off, but the planes continued to drive into the troops. Accident equaled losses from enemy fire.
              LAGG pilots called - the varnished guaranteed coffin.
              Il 2 did not have a gunner and was guaranteed booty for any fighter.
              is not consistent with your mythology and smashes it to smithereens?

              No illusions.
              How can you smash something with a little book of the 60th edition in your hands.
              What do you have there? The tenth edition of Zhukov or something else published under the watchful eye of censorship of the ideological department of the Central Committee.
            2. +1
              4 October 2016 19: 58
              Quote: Hupfri
              You generally know how these machines were adopted.

              Yes, do not pay attention to this hysterical troll. He will calm down. I don't even read his "comments". And I am very sorry that there is no emergency to isolate oneself from people like him.
      2. +1
        4 October 2016 15: 00
        Sorry minus can not be put. But I minus words. Because emotions instead of facts, pluses are unworthy.
  40. +2
    4 October 2016 11: 57
    Quote: rjxtufh
    In addition, gasoline burns vapors. And the "diesel" burns by itself.

    Your "knowledge" is as wonderful in this area as in all others. Thanks!!! laughing good
    1. +1
      4 October 2016 14: 57
      Yeah. It turns out that gasoline "does not burn", although in all reference books it is a flammable liquid. A discovery worthy of a Nobel Prize. I am impressed.
      1. 0
        4 October 2016 15: 58
        well, our opponents have "discoveries" at every turn laughing
        Quote: O. Henry
        ... Didn’t I see you in the south of Missouri last summer when you were selling half a dollar colored sand for a teaspoon and insisted that you just put it in a lamp and the kerosene never explodes?
        “Kerosene never really explodes,” I reply. - Only gas explodes.

        Strictly speaking, all flammable liquids burn about the same: evaporation - mixing vapors with air - combustion. The differences are primarily in the dependence of the pressure of saturated vapors on temperature, as well as on the thermodynamics of combustion itself, the possibility of the formation of explosive mixtures of vapors with air, etc.

        The difference between gasoline and diesel fuel / diesel / kerosene is that the latter are heavier fractions of oil distillation, at low temperatures they evaporate much less and are therefore more difficult to ignite. At one time there were kerosene lamps, kerosene / kerosene primus / kerogase, in which, before entering the burner, the fuel from the same burner was heated before evaporation began.

        Light fractions, including gasoline, especially aviation gas, evaporates much more easily and creates a sufficient vapor concentration for tanning even in the cold. That’s the whole difference.

        With regard to tanks - tanks on gasoline engines, especially aircraft-type engines, were prone to self-ignition when driving in difficult conditions or in extreme heat (engine overheating).
        This was the difference between Christie's tanks and our BTs, especially the early ones; and American "Stuarts", and English "Crusaders", and German "Panthers".
        Diesel engines themselves are much less flammable, but when diesel gets on an overheated engine, etc. it also evaporates greatly with all the ensuing consequences.
        For a person in a burning tank, diesel fuel is dangerous because it burns longer - gasoline quickly burns out or drains, but it manages to create a higher temperature in a short time, and it creates an explosive concentration of vapors much easier. So bad and this way and that, but bad in different ways.
      2. 0
        4 October 2016 17: 10
        Quote: Ulan
        It turns out that gasoline "does not burn", although in all reference books it is a flammable liquid. A Nobel Prize-worthy discovery. I am impressed.

        I am glad that I was able to eliminate at least a tiny part of your illiteracy.
        Gasoline (liquid) doesn’t really burn. His couples are burning.
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 17: 43
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Gasoline (liquid) doesn’t really burn. His couples are burning.

          Such literalism and tediousness can "change" a lot in the world around us - but not really, but only in changing the wording.
          Like, you are not traveling in the subway, but in the subway train carriage, or not in a car — because there are ship, steam and knitting cars — but in a passenger car. Well and so on.

          But if you pour a liter of gasoline on your "smart" head, and then strike with a match - your verbiage about "non-combustible liquid gasoline" will not save you laughing - and rightly so!

          And in the textbooks that you hate since childhood for your inability to learn them,lol gasoline is called a flammable liquid or flammable liquid (flammable liquid).
  41. 0
    4 October 2016 12: 17
    BloodsuckerI such individuals I perceive not as individuals or even as people, but as makivara wink
    And besides, they are often very funny, especially when they get angry, pout and begin to push hard laughing

    And what I am writing, of course, will not reach them, but more intelligent people most likely already know that. But what if someone else seems interested?
  42. +1
    4 October 2016 12: 49
    Ulan, among the current crystal bakers, no matter who they imagine themselves to be, the most visible lackeys laughing
    1. +1
      4 October 2016 13: 53
      But they dream of others being lackeys, and they themselves are "at balls with beauties."
      Alas, a footman’s soul cannot be beaten by any French rolls.
      1. +2
        4 October 2016 18: 14
        Ulan better than already said on this topic I will not say:
        Quote: Andrey Shigin

        Ivan Petrovich was big
        Noodle Chicken
        And he lived with his wife in Proletarsky Lane.
        But God didn’t save
        I read it in the magazine "Ogonyok"
        About Schubert waltzes and the crunch of French rolls.

        It said trouble,
        That supposedly in the seventeenth year
        The country was destroyed by the Bolshevik villains,
        And before it was - my goodness! -
        Living, well, just an earthly paradise:
        Balls, mazurkas, tailcoats and liveries ...

        In the end, it turned out
        What is this blatant fact
        Pierced through his vulnerable nature,
        And since then Petrovich could
        Watching the ceiling for hours
        Surviving a devastated culture.

        A swarm of thoughts swirled in my mind -
        He cursed the Soviet system
        For egalitarianism, shame and humiliation,
        And into the distance, where the glorious time is,
        Mademoiselle, Junker,
        Petrovich was attracted by his imagination.

        He dreamed as if it were:
        He is dressed in a tailcoat ...
        Ah, no - to the uniform, because he is a life guard lieutenant!
        Putting a diamond on his finger
        And adjusting the accelerator,
        Sits in the chaise, ordering: "Take it, my dear!"

        And now, by the end of the day,
        Petrovich, spurs ringing,
        Courtesy of a hand gives the princess bride
        Whose daddy arranged a ball ...
        But then Petrovich dozed off
        And he found himself in a very stranded place.

        Not a barn, not a basement ...
        And someone suddenly called him,
        Shoving the side with his foot persistently and firmly:
        "Hey, Vanka, damn you,
        Go, take the stables!
        Look, fell apart! Go to work, you bitch face! "

        Petrovich, without washing his face,
        Runs and falls from the porch
        Having time to note the unpleasant picture -
        Around him, back and forth
        Gentlemen walk slowly
        And they look at Petrovich like cattle.

        One of the ladies grumbles:
        "Oh, what a rude man.
        Imagine if they get the power! "
        "You are right, dear princess,
        They need a good whipping! "
        The lieutenant confirms in response to the Life Guard.

        Petrovich wipes the sweat
        Petrovich opens his mouth
        To shout out what he thinks about it
        But a scream in my mouth gets stuck ...
        He wakes up in sweat
        And from the lips breaks itself: "All power to the Soviets! .."
      2. +1
        4 October 2016 19: 38
        But they dream of others being lackeys,

        Do you know who dreams of what? And with whom the neighbor Manka is walking, but you are just a gossip. You probably think that in the camp you would be a guard, but it could become a simple goner, and you would have to knock Kuma for a ration. Everyone wants to live. For "Anti-Soviet agitation" was given 10 years.
  43. 0
    4 October 2016 12: 55
    rjxtufh,
    [quote] Is it possible to clarify with what enemy machines he was on an equal footing. Especially considering the three-inch F-34, [/ quote]
    The Germans used Soviet three-inch guns, quite decent weapons and they seized millions of shells. In any case, he could fight against the T-3 with a 37 mm gun and against the T-4 with a short cigarette butt. For this, of course, you need a trained crew. The crew is all about
    1. +1
      4 October 2016 16: 10
      Quote: Hupfri
      Soviet three-inch Germans used

      The Germans used everything. This is a common practice during the war. It does not say anything about the quality of the used, in any case it is more than nothing.
      Quote: Hupfri
      In any case, he could fight against the T-3 with a 37 mm gun and against the T-4 with a short cigarette butt. For this, of course, you need a trained crew. The crew is all about

      The fact is that already in 1942. the old T-3 and T-4 Germans withdrew from the troops and converted into self-propelled guns. Replacing with new samples, against which the three-inch was no good.
      1. 0
        4 October 2016 19: 27
        Replacing with new samples, against which the three-inch was no good.

        Well do not tell. They did not take the Tiger, although from the extremely small distances the Tiger could also be obtained. T-4 had a forehead of 80 mm and it was clearly insufficient thickness.
        1. +1
          4 October 2016 19: 44
          Quote: Hupfri
          T-4 had a forehead of 80 mm and it was clearly insufficient thickness.

          That's just those Pz IV, which were with forty mm in the forehead and forty-foot in the forehead did not break through at all. The forty-foot (marine Hotchkiss 80-mm gun model 47 on a field carriage) was magnificent at the time of its appearance (1895). And sucks during the Second World War.
  44. +1
    4 October 2016 14: 54
    rjxtufh,
    I never doubted that the truth is like a sickle in "Faberge", hence the pitiful excuses - "not interesting." And if you are not interested in what you are doing here and why these comments? Yet how interesting and this interest is not in the truth, but in justifying the West, which unleashed two world slaughter.
    Only you have chosen the wrong audience for this. you would have something simpler, for example, a "censor" in Ukraine.
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 19: 20
      Only you have chosen the wrong audience for this. you would have something simpler, for example, a "censor" in Ukraine.

      Are you registered with the censor? Gotta
  45. 0
    4 October 2016 15: 23
    rjxtufh,
    Quote: Hupfri
    BT 7 was a good tank. 45 mm gun, the same class as the T-3 and T-38
    Only "cardboard" armor.

    But the magpie also pierced the armor of any German tank in the 45th. So the German armor was the same cardboard
    1. +1
      4 October 2016 17: 24
      Quote: Hupfri
      But the magpie also pierced the armor of any German tank in the 45th.

      Only ancient series. Tanks of new series (there were about 1300 of them in the invasion army) didn’t make their way into the forehead with forty.
      1. 0
        4 October 2016 19: 17
        Tanks of new series (there were about 1300 of them in the invasion army) didn’t make their way into the forehead with forty.
        But this is only a third of the total.
        1. +2
          4 October 2016 19: 27
          Interestingly, even in the VO-chasing lieutenant, it’s not clear why, but in reality?
          I don’t understand, the hunt to look the smartest, the most brilliant, but what does the people say in such cases, on the subject of people who stick their nose to places where they are not of rank, not of intellect and not of knowledge?
          What does the number of tanks as such have to do with, what is your knowledge of tactics, what is the level of education, what is the second day, the pearls of nonsense are passed off as a beacon of "truth"
          Have you studied anything on the creation of superior forces at the breakthrough site? No ??
          Oh dear, what in this case did you study-planting butterflies on a dandelion? Well, study-dandelions, and not military affairs in which you have knowledge-ZERO, except for copy-paste of fabrications of corned beef and the like ..
          1. 0
            4 October 2016 23: 39
            Do not worry The Bloodthirster, I have enough education to conduct conversations with you.
            The number of tanks is very much in fact.
            I had different epaulettes here. Since I’ve been here for a long time. In the last incarnation in the form of Hapfrey.
            You, as I look, an ardent admirer of classical theory. There were few of us, there were many enemies, there were few tanks of guns, the enemy had a lot, everything was bad, the enemy was good, we were attacked while we were sleeping .....
            This Makhmud Gareev likes to repeat. Did you hear enough of him?
        2. 0
          4 October 2016 19: 31
          Quote: Hupfri
          But this is only a third of the total.

          This is how to count. If you count without Pz II (used mainly as reconnaissance) and Pz I (used mainly as auxiliary and training), then 1300 tanks, which is approximately 60% of all tanks of the invading army.
          And given the fact that the Germans did not allow the old models to attack in the first line, then the affairs of the forty-fives were not very smart. From 200 meters and with a successful angle of attack, they nevertheless took the new models head-on. But it was not anti-tank, but "ambush artillery". The gun was enough, if it was not detected even before the start of firing, for 1-2-3 shots.
          And this is in 1941. Further, the situation became even worse.
          1. 0
            4 October 2016 23: 49
            things at forty were not very smart.

            Nevertheless, there were a lot of 45s. They were cheap, inconspicuous, light, many enemy vehicles were taken aboard, fought against armored personnel carriers, there was a long-barreled version, which was made in a small series in the 42nd Anti-tank artillery in many respects "ambush".
            The Germans, too, did not disdain ambush tactics. Having a good quick-firing gun and optics, a tiger could easily put several Allied vehicles.
            1. 0
              5 October 2016 08: 06
              Quote: Hupfri
              Nevertheless, the 45-ok was a lot.

              Many, this is not the right word. Only on June 22.06.41, 14900. there were XNUMX pieces. And Tueva Hucha was on BTT.
              Most of all this by the winter of 1941. has been cast. And then the Germans used it all.
              Quote: Hupfri
              Anti-tank artillery is largely "ambush"

              Normal, not at all. Normal should take the enemy from the extreme distances into the forehead. From such distances, when he could not even see her. But in this case, this is the normal artillery of the VET. In the USSR, this was not during the Second World War, except that 240 issued in 1944. 100 mm BS-3. Even ZIS-2 arr. 1943 by the time of its appearance it was already rather weak for a normal anti-tank gun.
              And the Germans had 88 mm PaK43 (2037 pieces produced in 43-45) and an incredible amount of 75 mm PaK40 (as well as 76 mm PaK36 and PaK39). For 1942-44. 26124 were released only PaK40, PaK36 and PaK39. This does not include other brands. During this period, the USSR produced only 4380 comparable 57-mm ZIS-2 mod. 1943 Feel the difference. The main production of anti-tank guns of the USSR "went into the sand"; went to the ineffective forty-five "goodbye, Motherland" and about the same "legendary three-inches."
              Of course, by 1944. German 75 and 76-mm anti-tank guns slightly lost their significance; powerfully armored samples of the Soviet BTT appeared. And before that, they dealt with the entire enemy’s BTT exactly as it befits the normal anti-aircraft artillery. And until the very end of the war with the bulk of the Soviet BTT, too. After all, its basis was the ever-young T-34 with its frontal cardboard armor (for German 75-mm and higher anti-tank guns).
  46. 0
    4 October 2016 16: 36
    Quote: rjxtufh
    I caught verbiage and hollow breeds by the tail.

    Yes, you are two acrobat brothers here, constantly exposing yourself as verbiage and hollow breths, and constantly exposing yourself. Thanks guys, few people else can have so much fun laughing good
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 19: 14
      Sorry, your swamp was disturbed.
  47. +1
    4 October 2016 18: 03
    Quote: Hupfri
    Reds deprived Russia of victory just a stone's throw from triumph

    Yes Yes Yes. For more than 2,5 years, the Republic of Ingushetia waged a war in a stunningly unsuccessful manner, with great losses and insignificant successes - but then SUDDENLY, by the pike command, the Russian generals and admirals learned to plan the operations and carry out their plans, the Russian soldiers suddenly understood why they should shed their own blood, Russian industry suddenly learned to provide the army and navy with everything necessary ...

    And here, a stone's throw from triumph, it is also SUDDENLY pants prevented the bad dancer betrayal happened crying
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 18: 58

      Yes Yes Yes. For more than 2,5 years, the Republic of Ingushetia waged a war in a stunningly unsuccessful manner, with great losses and insignificant successes -

      Take a card and compare.
      Where were the Germans in December 14th and in December 41st. And everything will be clear about the success and not the success of the Red Army and the Imperial Army of Russia. And ask about sweating.
      1. +2
        4 October 2016 21: 54
        The difference between WWII for the Republic of Ingushetia, where Republic of Ingushetia was the sixth Entente on the auxiliary front, and WWII for the USSR, where our country fought one-on-one with the resources of all of Europe, is also personally secret from you. Sorry.

        You also managed to "fail to notice" that in the winter of 1941 the Red Army carried out, yielding to the enemy in numbers and at the same time winning, a counteroffensive near Moscow. In WWI, the Russian army had a significant numerical advantage over the enemy throughout the war, at times - overwhelming, but this did not save it from retreats and defeats.

        And at least a hundred times these facts remind you - for you everything is like God's dew lol
        1. 0
          4 October 2016 23: 11
          The difference between WWII for the Republic of Ingushetia, where Republic of Ingushetia was the sixth Entente on the auxiliary front, and WWII for the USSR, where our country fought one-on-one with the resources of all of Europe, is also personally secret from you. Sorry.

          The USSR in WWII was the main player. And not the six. And suffered heavy losses. And you are proud of it. That's about it.
          The second one. If you strain to compare, for example, in terms of the amount of ammunition consumed, the First World War is not inferior to the Second. By the number of artillery pieces, machine guns, warships, too.
          The third. Roosevelt loomed behind the back of the USSR. Which helped Stalin literally all he could. So it would not be a one on one war. The USSR received comprehensive assistance. Yes, and German aviation was largely based in the West, covering the Reich from raids. There were also 88 mm anti-aircraft guns, which so successfully declared themselves as anti-tank weapons

          You also managed to "not notice" that already in the winter of 1941 the Red Army carried out a counteroffensive near Moscow, yielding to the enemy in numbers and at the same time winning.

          This offensive was to squeeze out the Germans. Pushing the Germans away from Moscow, the Red Army began to inflict numerous unsystematic attacks on the entire front of the Germans, stupidly wasting forces and reserves. The commanders of the Red Army academies did not finish
          1. +1
            5 October 2016 08: 37
            Quote: Hupfri
            The USSR in WWII was the main player.

            Yes? Why did he have such a modest place in the process of dividing the "fruits of victory"?
            Quote: Hupfri
            Roosevelt loomed behind the back of the USSR. Which helped Stalin literally all he could.

            With such helpers, no enemies are needed. France and the French at one time refused such "helpers", which is why, I think, they won a lot.
            Never and no normal country (especially bourgeois, because they are formed on the basis of a particular nation) will not help anyone. Not having from this its very specific benefits. Remember this.
            This is the law of the development of human civilization, in which all nations are competitors. In the struggle for possession of the "pies" of the planet Earth. Searching for "friends" ("fraternal peoples") around the world is a soviet whim. Unfortunately, firmly ingrained in the minds of the unconscious.
            Quote: Hupfri
            So it would not be a one on one war. The USSR received comprehensive assistance.

            You can’t argue with that. To solve the tasks assigned to it, the USSR received security.
            By the way, for the period since 1942. and until 1945. The USSR spent something like the first stage of industrialization on American loans. Only industrialization is real, and not the blown one that was carried out in the early 1s.
            After 45g. this industrialization continued. On captured technologies and with the involvement of German experts. This industrialization of the USSR was enough until the end of the 80s. Then the dead-end society quite naturally died smoothly. I could not stand the competition with more developed forms.
  48. The comment was deleted.
  49. +2
    4 October 2016 21: 59
    Hapfri, rjxtufhAre you trying to isolate yourself from the truth? Chose a difficult business lol
    1. 0
      4 October 2016 23: 18
      Hapfrey, rjxtufh, trying to isolate yourself from the truth?

      Do you have a license for the ultimate truth? Did Uchpedgiz give it to you? Or Sovinformburo. Do you have a photograph of Makhmud Gareev on your bedside table and do you kiss her at night?
      1. +1
        5 October 2016 08: 38
        Quote: Hupfri
        Do you have a license for the ultimate truth? Did Uchpedgiz give it to you? Or Sovinformburo.

        Agitation and Propaganda Department of the CPSU Central Committee (Sovagitprop).
        1. +1
          6 October 2016 08: 04
          It looks like you were given a pretty worn-out, lisping plate from the time of the Hunchback building and the yellowish Spark, with the rotten instructions of the State Department.
          A rare combination of filth, stupidity and sickening lies ..
          1. 0
            8 October 2016 23: 25
            A rare combination of filth, stupidity and sickening lies

            Are you talking to yourself? Evaluation of your own activities?
  50. +1
    4 October 2016 22: 02
    Quote: Hupfri
    How can you smash something with a little book of the 60th edition in your hands.

    And you, generally without books in your hands, sucking your fantasies out of, probably, a finger, consider yourself smarter than people who have not forgotten how to read books? laughing
    1. +2
      4 October 2016 23: 23
      sucking your fantasies out of probably a finger, consider yourself smarter than people,

      I do not suck anything and do not consider myself anyone. I just ask myself questions and try to find answers to them. Books are different. It is necessary to read both those and these. Compare, analyze. Draw conclusions. What I advise you
      1. 0
        5 October 2016 22: 31
        Books are different. It is necessary to read both those and these. Compare, analyze. Draw conclusions.
        True, I also don’t like mass pumping. It is better to study and evaluate yourself.
      2. 0
        5 October 2016 22: 32
        Books are different. It is necessary to read both those and these. Compare, analyze. Draw conclusions.
        True, I also don’t like mass pumping. It is better to study and evaluate yourself.
      3. 0
        5 October 2016 22: 32
        Books are different. It is necessary to read both those and these. Compare, analyze. Draw conclusions.
        True, I also don’t like mass pumping. It is better to study and evaluate yourself.
      4. 0
        5 October 2016 22: 33
        Books are different. It is necessary to read both those and these. Compare, analyze. Draw conclusions.
        True, I also don’t like mass pumping. It is better to study and evaluate yourself.
      5. +1
        6 October 2016 05: 00
        Quote: Hupfri


        I do not suck anything and do not consider myself anyone.

        you are such, and no engineer ...

        Li-2 released under license. It is not worth giving so that the aircraft industry of the USSR could not have created such an aircraft itself.
        Then the USSR bought the An-2 in Poland, they were made more than in the USSR itself
        But in the case of the F-35B and AV-8B, the Americans preferred to forget about licenses in both cases for some reason.

        With Russia, Russia has litigation over the unlicensed issue of the Kalashnikovs.

        Germans plowed in the United States, and as many Queens (with him) they did not plow.
        They plowed in the USA on Saber which in Korea blew.

        "Komet" was a merchant ship at the time of sailing and had a different name. It was converted into a raider in Japan, and then in the Pacific Ocean it mainly used its flag ... This ship changed its name five times.

        In all other respects, you also "scared the fish"

        You wrote all your dog-Trotsky lie about Soviet-German trade relations only to try to cover up the fact that the United States supplied strategic materials, primarily motor oil, to the Nazis in 1942-1945 so that their engines would continue to work on the Eastern Front to destroy the Russians.

        The USSR could do without Lend-Lease, the Germans after the failure of the Blitzkrieg without American supplies - no.

        Quote: Novel 11
        I also don’t like mass pumping.

        study what Truman said for the Washington Post on June 24, 1941.
        This "American dog" under other articles has already been explained a hundred times here, the "question" why the administration does not ban him ...
        1. 0
          8 October 2016 23: 06
          Li-2 released under license. It is not worth giving so that the aircraft industry of the USSR could not have created such an aircraft itself.

          Stalin ordered Tu 4 to copy from B29 and in no case do anything by himself. Do you consider Stalin a fool?
          Germans plowed in the United States, and as many Queens (with him) they did not plow.
          The Germans plowed in the USSR until 1955.
          When did Korolev launch the satellite? In 1957 Twice two fold
          They plowed in the USA on Saber which in Korea blew.

          And according to MiG and Ilu.
          The loss of MiGs in the Korean War is several times greater than the loss of Sabers.
          gloss over the fact of US supplies to the Nazis in 1942-1945 strategic materials,
          This is an empty chatter. Unproven. Where did they get oil jars from? I already explained to you
          The USSR could do without Lend-Lease,

          Well, they would have fought for another 10 years without gunpowder, rubber gasoline and aluminum, would have lost another 30 million
          Germans after the failure of the blitzkrieg without American supplies - no.

          Three ha ha. Their chemical industry is no worse than the American one.
          And great science.
          1. 0
            9 October 2016 00: 36
            TB-7 is more complicated than Li-2, the USSR made it itself. With the B-29, only the hull was copied in general.

            The Germans plowed all the way to the USA.

            On what American dump did you find this long abandoned bone? German MiG designers plowed badly, in that case?

            You nonsense, Rockefeller American dog, you didn’t even explain anything to yourself.
            With butter, Not out of butter.

            Without aluminum varnish, with plywood aircraft, they would have lost another 300 thousand in six months, before the Germans stupidly ran out of engine oil, which their industry only learned to do in 30 years.
            1. 0
              10 October 2016 15: 49
              With the B-29, only the hull was copied in general.

              In general, you don’t know anything at all.
            2. 0
              10 October 2016 23: 59
              Without aluminum varnish, with plywood aircraft

              Collective farmer, turn on the logic.
              You didn’t think about why the Americans did not supply us with your mythical varnish? After all, we destroyed the Luftwaffe aircraft, which means that the more we destroyed, the easier it is for the Western Allies. All the less losses in the West.
              Why have thousands of us delivered ready-made modern aircraft?
              Aerocobras delivered, Spitfires delivered, walkie-talkies and locators, but there is no varnish, magic varnish was not delivered.
              You probably smell him and dream of you Lenin.
            3. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      8 October 2016 23: 27

      sucking my fantasies out of probably a finger,
      Uchpedgiz steers. Do you study Sovinformburo? They already killed 4 million Germans in August.
      1. 0
        9 October 2016 00: 37
        Klimov steers, he wrote about people like you.
  51. +1
    4 October 2016 22: 08
    Quote: Hupfri
    You generally know how these machines were adopted.

    In the know, in the know.
    I also know that when fine-tuning any aircraft there were problems - both for us, and for the Germans, and for the British and Americans. And everyone had improvements in design during production.

    Only you are spinning around like a louse on a comb, and presenting the same phenomenon among your loved ones or the Nazis “as great progress,” but among us as “collective farm backwardness.” laughing

    And the most important thing is that you are now trying to jump off the topic of Lend-Lease fuel, which you yourself raised, but lied to.
    I gave you a bunch of examples of aircraft quite modern for WWII. They began to fly with us from 1938-1940, up to several years before deliveries under Lend-Lease. And they had something to fly on, contrary to your inventions.
    1. 0
      5 October 2016 10: 59
      I also know that when fine-tuning any aircraft there were problems - both for us, and for the Germans, and for the British and Americans

      This is not fine-tuning the aircraft. This is the adoption of a semi-finished product. The Yak-1 is a real semi-finished product. During its testing, the tester died - the landing gear was twisted and part of the wing skin was torn off. However, a month later the aircraft went into production.
      . They started flying with us from 1938-1940, up to several years before deliveries under Lend-Lease

      That's right, they just started flying. The collective farm industry was not able to provide production of the required quality. As you know, personnel decides everything, but there were no personnel. There were bums and klutzes who spoke the right words at meetings.
      The engine modernization program was also overwhelmed
      The USSR itself was Lend Lease for Germany, which was fighting against England. Would you also like the States to supply us with something in this situation?
      1. +1
        5 October 2016 15: 55
        Do you even know what you're talking about?

        However, all your anti-Soviet rhetoric smoothly and accurately flowed into outright Russophobia.
        Let me remind you, Russophobe, that it was the very same collective farmers, workers, engineers, people of other professions that you hated so much, brought up by the SOVIET government, in 1941-1945 who did what your vaunted Western scoundrels could not do.

        In order to know who is to blame for starting the war, it is enough to read the speeches of Chamberlain and his ministers, in particular - Hitler created what we need, a bastion against Bolshevism, SO you, in all your Russophobic comments here, JUSTIFY Nazism as a force ,WEST against RUSSIA, yes, at that time Red RUSSIA, but remaining a RUSSIAN state in fact.

        You, and this is absolutely understandable, are a Russophobe, a Nazi collaborator, no matter what you give here as an excuse.

        Anyone trying to justify NAZISM, even in such a base way as yours, distorts and lies, reducing the USSR as a WINNER to the level of a participant, a priori, a neo-Nazi, an accomplice of the West in the information war against Russia.

        For Lend Lease, paid for in blood, the ghoul of the US world, gorged on blood, is trying again with the same blood, throughout Great Britain and North Africa, Central Asia, South Asia, to reserve the right to be the highest judge and ruler - IT WILL NOT WORK, lest you and others like you be cast out in lies here.
  52. 0
    4 October 2016 22: 46
    rjxtufh,
    No, the sacrifice process there was a little different. But anyway it was not called "T-34/85 could fight the Tiger". At least not on an equal footing.
    Yes, and with Panther, too. The Americans generally rated Panther at 5 Sherman (not written which) or 9 T-34 (34/76 or 34/85 not written).

    There is an opinion that tanks, as a rule, do not fight tanks. The destruction of tanks was carried out by anti-tank artillery and special self-propelled guns. Our successful unit was the SU 100, but it only managed to fight in Hungary.
    Neither 34 nor Sherman could fight the Tiger one-on-one. Well, they weren't alone. My allies and I produced an incredible amount of various armored vehicles.
    1. +1
      5 October 2016 08: 52
      Quote: Hupfri
      There is an opinion that tanks, as a rule, do not fight tanks.

      This was the opinion of German generals before the start of the Second World War. During the Second World War it changed to exactly the opposite.
      The same can be said about Soviet generals. Guns capable of normally fighting enemy tanks were not even installed on field chassis during the Second World War. Only for tanks and self-propelled guns. With the exception of a small number of highly specialized 57-mm ZIS-2 mod. 1943
  53. 0
    5 October 2016 00: 05
    rjxtufh,
    Yes, don't pay attention to this hysterical troll. He will calm down. I don’t even read his “comments”.

    I also understand that we would live in a closed society, in the absence of information. Then I could understand that people form such views.
    But now, when many sources are open... incomprehensible
    Good night
    1. +1
      5 October 2016 08: 56
      Quote: Hupfri
      But now, when many sources are open... incomprehensible

      In fact of the matter. The confusion is simply overwhelming.
      Maybe they are trying so hard for money? Is someone on payroll? Well, people really can't be like that...? Or maybe?
      1. 0
        5 October 2016 10: 54
        And again you are trying to judge everyone by yourself laughing
  54. 0
    5 October 2016 02: 54
    Quote: Hupfri
    The economic growth rate of the Republic of Ingushetia was the highest in the world.

    Lies.
    1. They were not the highest even among developed countries, to which RI could not relate in any way. The US economic growth rate was higher.

    And if we take the absolute volumes of growth, then at seemingly low rates, both Germany and England were ahead of Russia. I’m not sure about France, they need to calculate more accurately.

    2. The fastest rate of development is if it is from zero. Among developing countries, Russian growth rates did not look at all like those of Japan, Argentina, and Chile, they were much higher.
    3. Industrial production volumes and other quantitative indicators in the Republic of Ingushetia were primarily due to blunt extensive factors: territory, population.
    If you look at the per capita indicators, all the bakery myths shrink to nothing, all the indicators of Tsarist Russia turn out to be pitiful. What they were in reality.

    Quote: Hupfri
    in 13 there were few cars.

    Sincere confession softens. It’s not that with this confession you have changed anything other than karma, cleared of your usual lies... But even that is not bad.

    Quote: Hupfri
    But by the year 16, 5 auto factories were founded. The famous AMO is, in particular, the Ryabushinsky enterprise.

    And then this AMO was engaged exclusively in screwdriver assembly of ready-made kits, like other “Russian” “car factories” of that time laughing - because Russo-Balt stopped working due to the evacuation, and the rest of the RI enterprises were even weaker.

    Moreover, he began this assembly of AMO not by 16, but at its very end. But against the backdrop of your other usual lies, these are such little things...

    Moreover, these ready-made kits for the “advanced” Russian industry were supplied by “backward” Italy with its “Fiat” - since Russia was even much more backward.
    1. 0
      5 October 2016 08: 51
      .
      . The fastest rate of development is if from zero

      So look how China has developed from scratch over the past 40 years. From primitive economy to world leader. All that was needed was to move away from communist dogmas and give freedom of entrepreneurship
      1. +1
        5 October 2016 10: 53
        Quote: Hupfri
        So look how China has developed from scratch over the past 40 years.

        I sympathize again, you have shown yourself to be the same “expert” in economics as in other topics you touched on laughing

        And for the rest of the world, the difference between state capitalism, like the current Chinese one, and primitive spontaneous capitalism, barely emerging from the stage of primitive capital accumulation, in essentially feudal conditions, which was observed in the Republic of Ingushetia, is not a secret.

        Quote: Hupfri
        All we had to do was move away from communist dogmas

        Before the “departure from communist dogmas,” the USSR was incomparably stronger in all respects than the current Russian Federation.

        Quote: Hupfri
        and give freedom to entrepreneurship

        Under the conditions of Tsarist Russia, freedom of enterprise turned into a complete failure.

        The same defense orders, thanks to freedom of enterprise, cost the Russian treasury many times more than similar work cost abroad - and an order of magnitude more expensive than the reasonably estimated cost. “Let people earn money,” this is how Nikolashka assessed it.

        In addition, orders were often transferred not to those enterprises that could fulfill the order faster, cheaper, or with better quality - but rather the opposite. This fed a lot of people, starting with members of the royal family, as well as their mistresses, etc.
        Freedom of enterprise, so. Let people earn money.

        In addition, the implementation of defense orders was delayed in every possible way, not only due to the deep technological backwardness of the “advanced” industry of the Republic of Ingushetia - but also for the sake of extracting additional funds from the treasury. Instead of penalties, latecomers were given subsidies - freedom of enterprise laughing
        The Republic of Ingushetia held a steady record of long-term construction in military shipbuilding, and this was considered normal - as a result, Russia’s defense capability suffered serious damage. But “let people earn money.”

        For example, before the REV, only one full-fledged Russian-built EDB, and those purchased abroad, were put into operation on time. Of the rest of the “Borodinets”, one was even completed after Tsushima, three were commissioned hastily and just before the war, the crews were not properly formed and trained, and the ships themselves were not transported to the theater of operations in advance...

        All this turned into Tsushima, the most shameful of the defeats of Russia in the RN and the most enchanting, in terms of loss ratio, major naval battle for a very considerable time in human history. But there is freedom of enterprise, and let people earn money.

        And now, in general, the same rake is being repeated, and the RI that has already gained on this rake is being raised as an example. It's called "Russian patriotism", yes laughing
    2. 0
      5 October 2016 13: 32
      IT ACTUALLY WAS SO
      The volume of industrial production in 1887–1913 increased 4,6 times. Heavy industry developed especially dynamically—metalworking and the mining industry (metallurgy, coal and oil mining). Widespread railway construction from the 1860s to the 1880s required the creation of new industries. And this had a decisive influence on changes in the industry structure. Russia made a giant leap in its industrial development in the 1890s. It was a period of rapid economic growth, when industrial production in the country doubled in just a decade.
      In terms of the most important economic indicators, Russia has moved significantly closer to the leading Western countries. In terms of absolute volumes of iron ore mining, iron and steel smelting, volume of mechanical engineering products, industrial consumption of cotton and sugar production, it ranks fourth or fifth in the world. And in oil production at the turn of the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries, thanks to the creation of the Baku oil industrial region, it even became a world leader. The length of the Russian railway network was the second in the world, second only to the USA
      ONLY THE RED DIDN'T NEED IT, THEY NEEDED POWER
      And then this AMO was exclusively engaged in screwdriver assembly of ready-made kits

      Ford in those ancient times, just ten years earlier, generally worked in a garage.
      1. +1
        5 October 2016 18: 45
        Yes...you should be a storyteller, work in Amer’s school, they believe in all sorts of nonsense...You should provide links to your so-called “knowledge”
        And now the facts.
        Amazing, rapid economic growth... My heart really rejoices.

        Now let's see how Russia PROVIDED itself with food.

        The table was compiled by the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs in 1915. That is, not the Bolsheviks.

        Table - 3 - meat 0,74 pounds (12,136 kilos) on average - per capita per year (and there is a difference between city and village, and how much meat was consumed in the USSR - http://kaig.ru/rf/postmeat.pdf

        Urban consumption is 68,7 kg per year, rural consumption is 4,92!! Kg per year - what kind of bastard will remind you about the Soviet “sausage trains”, that’s where the tin is. - Well, like sausage souls, will you all sing songs about electric trains?

        Let's compare meat consumption in France for the same year (36 kilos per capita), Great Britain - 61 kilos, Germany - 47 kilos. USA - 87 kilos?

        Soooooo how they provided - they lived only three times hungrier than the rather poor France.

        And in general, let’s go back to ferrous metallurgy - because in the industrial era it is the FIRST BASIS of everything:

        In the 2th century, under Catherine the 1nd, having ruined competitive Sweden, Russia was the XNUMXst country in the world in terms of ferrous metallurgy volumes. FIRST.

        By 1820 - SECOND

        BY 1830 - THIRD

        BY 1840 - FOURTH.

        By 1860 - FIFTH.

        By 1910 - FIFTH.

        We are seeing fabulous, fabulous growth. The prospects are brighter than ever.



        Yeah, it’s a great achievement to slide in the XNUMXth century from the SECOND economy in the world under Katerina uterus to the FIFTH place out of SIX world powers (well, eight - that’s if Italy is counted - the USA, Great Britain, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary and actually all of them under Nicholas We are just creeping “in terms of growth rates” to SIXTH place.
        In general, study, http://fanread.ru/book/10028675/?page=4
        5
        1. 0
          5 October 2016 20: 06
          Now the bakers will again begin to feel nostalgic for red caviar in barrels and pineapples in champagne, which were available to 1% of the population of the Republic of Ingushetia, at most. And repeat tales about the Holodomor in the USSR, where, with rare exceptions, food consumption was many times better than before the revolution.
          1. 0
            5 October 2016 22: 10
            in the USSR, where, with rare exceptions, food consumption was many times better than pre-revolutionary

            And I’ll even tell you where.
            In special distributors for those specially attached.
            I personally know those who were starving then. They always collected crumbs from the table.
            And in the mouth. Although so many years have passed.
        2. 0
          5 October 2016 22: 05
          In general, study

          WELL, YOU THINK TOO
          About the terrible hungry years of 1921-1922, 1932-1933 and 1946-1947 are known to almost everyone who is little interested in Russian history.
          disasters.
          It is also known about the no less difficult hungry war years (1941-1945), but the "Soviet" ones explain them by the very fact of the existence of a destructive war (modestly hushing up the absence of hunger, as such, in Russia during the terrible WWI).
          An interesting fact, however, is that if we delve a little further into the history of the formation of a young experimental state, we can single out a few more sad periods that honestly need to be called hungry:

          1) 1924-1925, 2) 1927-1928, 3) 1936-1937, 4) 1939-1941
          LIKE THIS. THERE WAS ALWAYS HUNGER.
          Study.
          There are examples, with recipes for dishes, cake, quinoa, other delicacies....
          http://maxpark.com/community/1355/content/867720
      2. 0
        6 October 2016 00: 42
        Quote: Hupfri
        The volume of industrial production in 1887–1913 increased 4,6 times.

        You “forget” to compare the state of RI with the rest of the world, which also developed well. But I reminded you of some facts of more successful development - but you chose to disgrace yourself again with your ignorance.

        In particular, over the same period, Japan increased the volume of industrial production by more than an order of magnitude, and at the end of WWII it reached third place in the world in shipbuilding, incl. military, began producing destroyers for export to France.

        And RI could not even provide for itself - it bought many ships abroad or copied foreign ones, and did not receive any orders for the export of its ships.

        Quote: Hupfri
        in oil production

        Translated into Russian: in the extraction and sale of this category of RAW MATERIALS. wink
        What says less than nothing about industrial development lol

        Quote: Hupfri
        by volume of mechanical engineering products

        Which one, for example?
        And is it okay that the Republic of Ingushetia IMPORTED all the most high-tech mechanical engineering products during this period, and not vice versa?

        Quote: Hupfri
        The length of the Russian railway network was the second in the world, second only to the USA

        ...despite the fact that the United States had a much smaller extent of its own territory. But a much more developed industry.
        And other industrialized countries, with their very modest territory, did not need such volumes of railways at all laughing

        Quote: Hupfri
        Ford in those epic times, just ten years earlier, generally worked in a garage.

        Well, you found something to be proud of: during the time that the Republic of Ingushetia was sadly stomping around at the stage of artisanal small-scale production of cars, mainly from imported units and based on foreign models, Ford, which started with the same occupation, surpassed the entire Russian automotive industry by several orders of magnitude, and even the Italians beat Russia by at least an order of magnitude. laughing
  55. +1
    5 October 2016 02: 55
    Quote: Hupfri
    I just ask myself questions and try to find answers to them.

    Great!
    Do you already lack the resources to answer =my= questions? Sorry laughing
  56. +1
    5 October 2016 02: 57
    = * =
    Quote: Hupfri
    By the thirties, the Republic of Ingushetia confidently entered the top five most developed countries in the world.

    WHAT?!! laughing What is RI like in the 30s? lol

    The USSR, yes, showed record rates of development in the 30s and became one of the most developed countries in the world.
    And RI, even having achieved 5th place in terms of industrial production, in terms of the LEVEL of development of this production it would be good if it was 15th. Even behind Italy, Holland and Japan, we are far behind.

    Quote: Hupfri
    All your figures are from materials of the Sovinformburo.

    Even if it were so, what can you object to other than “let’s just lie”? laughing

    Quote: Hupfri
    Do you yourself believe in 4%?

    They believe in gods or miracles. Or know-nothings like you may or may not believe in what you are supposed to KNOW.
    And I prefer to know exact numbers.
    And they are different for different positions. For small arms, for example, the share of Lend-Lease is less than 1%, for tanks it is within 10-12%, for cars - much more than 4%, for artillery - much less than 4%. Do you have any objection? Try it laughing

    Quote: Hupfri
    Your numbers smell like mouse poop.

    I am ready to admit your overwhelming superiority in knowledge about mouse poop laughing But you are constantly at odds with numbers and facts. crying
    1. 0
      5 October 2016 20: 07
      Numbers? That means numbers. Well, let's see what your numbers are.
      So cars, jeeps and Studebakers, the famous Katyushas on which won the war. So there were as many as four cars! percent. Still more than Thompson machine guns. Only 4 percent. Fords and Studebakers
      And I prefer to know exact numbers.
      And they are different for different positions. For small arms, for example, the share of Lend-Lease is less than 1%, for cars - much more than 4%,

      Now let's pick up a calculator.
      The total number of cars delivered to the Soviet Union by the Allies is estimated at 400. Including 000 Jeeps
      That means 400. This figure is everywhere. Including in pro-communist sources. There, however, they write that there were slightly fewer cars. But still the order of the numbers is approximately the same.
      So let’s take a calculator and take the number of cars delivered to the USSR as 400 to simplify the calculations.
      So 400 cars were delivered and that's equal to four percent
      Let's make a simple proportion: 400 ---- 000%
      And how much will one percent of the cars delivered to the USSR be?
      Divide by 4.
      We get 1% ---- 100 cars. So one percent of all cars in the USSR is equal to one hundred thousand cars
      Let us now ask ourselves a question.
      And how many cars were there in the USSR in the period 41-45, if one percent is 100 cars. Total is 000%
      To find out, multiply by 100.
      100% --- 100 x 000
      DEAR MOTHER!!! 10!!!
      TEN MILLIONS!!!!
      More than in America. Why do we need Lend-Lease? We ourselves can sell them to anyone in any quantities!
      There were TEN MILLION cars in the USSR during the war.
      INDESCRIPBLE DAMAGE!!!!!!!!
      During the entire war, Opel produced 6 cars in 120 years, Bogwart - 000, and such factories as Mercedes and Magirus were limited to series of 40-000. And here!
      TEN MILLIONS.
      DOES ANYONE BELIEVE THIS? In the fall of 41, in order to somehow recover from the defeat, no more than 200 cars were assembled across all collective farms, motor depots and factories. Completely bleeding the national economy.
      All your numbers are like this. They were written by the agitator Makhmud Gareev. To look good in front of your boss. During the period of another newspaper hype, ordered by the organizational department of the Central Committee.
  57. +1
    5 October 2016 02: 58
    Quote: Hupfri
    Do you know the concept of cracking?

    Even better than you. Are you a humanitarian or just an ignoramus? On all technical and scientific issues you demonstrate the deepest ignorance.

    Quote: Hupfri
    This is when you can get a lot of high-quality gasoline from oil.

    By catalytic conversion. I can even name data offhand that is more accurate than your vague girlish fantasies... but why do you need travel? wink

    Quote: Hupfri
    But we made it simpler. The light fractions were removed and the rest was poured onto the ground.

    If I ask you to name the sources of your nonsense about pouring it on the ground, you won’t be able to answer again? lol

    And if we move from your girlish fantasies to reality, then there really aren’t that many light fractions in oil, but the value of oil is not limited to them.
    For example, in pre-revolutionary Russia, the main and most popular product of oil refining was not gasoline at all, but kerosene, and in the USSR it was also required in huge quantities. Nobody poured it on the ground except by accident.

    Quote: Hupfri
    So why should I love your Kaganovich?

    I do not undertake to discuss your sexuality lol and your intimate tastes
    Love whoever you want! laughing
    But when talking about history, there is no need to lie, and engaging in idle talk is also bad.
    Although, if you are not capable of anything else... I sympathize crying
    1. 0
      5 October 2016 20: 28
      No need to discuss anything, you are not an engineer
      You have no outlook and basic common sense.
      The Americans supplied us with gunpowder and high-octane gasoline. Let's take these 2 positions. Almost all gunpowder factories remained in Ukraine, which was handed over to the Germans.
      Without gunpowder it is impossible to wage war. You can rivet as many tanks and machine guns as you like, but nothing will shoot. Because there is nothing.
      And you won’t be able to do this for an army of five million at once. Because it's a lot and takes a long time. But the German is rushing and we need gunpowder now. Since it is necessary to shoot now, and not in a year, otherwise the Germans cannot be restrained. Do you understand this or do you need further clarification?
      And Roosevelt gave this gunpowder.
      And he gave me high-octane aviation gasoline. With which the situation was the same as with gunpowder.
      And now you can evaluate the help of your allies as a percentage,
      and even better in the lives of soldiers saved. Although, who am I telling this to?
      A million more is a million less for you. The main thing is to look beautiful on the podium. Applause turns into ovation, shouts of “Bravo” and the singing of the International are heard.
      1. +1
        5 October 2016 22: 29
        Quote: Hupfri
        you are not an engineer

        Who are you if you can’t say anything but nonsense on every topic discussed? laughing
        1. 0
          12 October 2016 06: 38
          Probably the one who is trying to pretend that he does not know that Soviet industry was evacuated to the Urals, where even the B-29s would not have reached then,

          That they learned to produce gunpowder without nitrate back in the 1970th century, and synthetic motor oil only in the XNUMXs, and therefore, so that the Nazis could continue the war in the East, this, like many other things, was supplied to them from... the USA, sales through the Brazilian branch one American oil company through Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Turkey and Switzerland,
          in the latter, separate peace negotiations were terminated with the unimpeded passage of “allied” troops from the Rhine to the Elbe...
  58. +1
    5 October 2016 03: 00
    Quote: Hupfri
    But now that many sources are open...

    For myth-makers like you, many sources and facts still remain strictly classified, because they contradict the tenets of your faith laughing
  59. +1
    5 October 2016 03: 27
    Quote: Hupfri
    The USSR was the main player in WWII. And not six. And suffered heavy losses. And you are proud of it.

    OU! Less than six months have passed since you learned to at least sometimes understand what your opponents wrote! laughing Congratulations!

    And I remind you that the USSR received a lot for this.
    A zone of influence in Eastern Europe and China, full recoupment of what Russia lost in the Republic of Armenia, and overall influence in the world.
    RI in the 20th century, being the six Entente, did not dare to dream of such a thing.

    Quote: Hupfri
    Third. Roosevelt loomed behind the USSR.

    So what? The USSR did the main thing itself, and also helped its allies.

    Quote: Hupfri
    Who helped Stalin literally with everything he could.

    Oh, why lie so stupidly and blatantly.

    The United States did not supply some of the most advanced weapons to the USSR. PT self-propelled guns began to be delivered much later than our requests - despite the fact that the United States itself did not need these weapons at that time, and we had our own and better ones before the good Americans finally became generous.
    The USSR was also denied supplies of “fortresses” and “lightings”. And many more things can be recalled in the same spirit. This is not called "everything I could."

    And most importantly, our “allies” delayed the creation of a second front until the last moment. Until the real opportunity arose for the USSR to end the war alone.

    Quote: Hupfri
    The commanders of the Red Army did not graduate from academies

    And they turned out to be incomparably more successful than their colleagues with academic education in Poland, France, Japan, and China. The Germans were first stopped, the first in the world, and then they won. And the British and Americans were capable of something only in conditions of overwhelming superiority over the enemy - unlike the commanders of the Red Army.
    1. +1
      5 October 2016 20: 36
      And I remind you that the USSR received a lot for this.
      A zone of influence in Eastern Europe and China, full recoupment of what Russia lost in the Republic of Armenia, and overall influence in the world.

      Moreover, the USSR could get even more by killing another 30 million of its citizens. And completely play Malta, Alaska and the Ionian Islands.
    2. 0
      5 October 2016 20: 40
      The Germans were first stopped, the first in the world, and then they won.

      27 killed.
      Millions of unborn children from fallen children.
      Tens of thousands of destroyed cities and villages. We won.....
      Why did the winners stop? They would have defeated someone else. Obituaries would be great
      1. +3
        6 October 2016 07: 13
        You gush out more bile, gush out. Show yourself in all your glory, anti-Soviet Russophobes.
  60. +1
    5 October 2016 10: 24
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Guns capable of normally fighting enemy tanks were not even installed on field chassis during the Second World War.

    A number of experimental artillery systems and quite a production 100-mm BS-3 are classified for you.
    I traditionally sympathize laughing
  61. 0
    5 October 2016 10: 52
    ...a German heavy tank arrived in time...
    Which one is this? Not a Pz IV with a “kosher” 75 mm cannon?
  62. +1
    5 October 2016 11: 16
    Quote: Hupfri
    The USSR itself was Lend Lease for Germany, which was fighting against England.

    I look forward to your confirmation as your next *unfounded statements*.

    That is, prove that the USSR supplied Hitler with weapons and military equipment in 1940-41.

    Prove that supplies of grain and raw materials from the USSR to Germany were preferential for Hitler.
    That a state loan was allocated for this in the USSR.
    That the outbreak of war with France and England caused an increase in such supplies beyond those previously agreed upon.

    And something tells me that you, sir, will once again “not notice” my questions and will not be able to give clear answers to them - once again you will show yourself *a being extremely prone to making unsubstantiated and unreliable statements*and *a person who is not used to and is not able to answer for his words*.
    1. 0
      5 October 2016 20: 49
      And something tells me that you, sir, will once again “not notice” my questions and will not be able to give clear answers to them, -

      WANT TO.
      YOU ARE WELCOME
      - from the USSR the last train with oil, manganese, grain crossed the German border an hour before the fascist invasion

      - 11.02.40/1/500, according to the agreement that became the result of Soviet-German negotiations on the development of economic cooperation, the USSR undertook to supply Germany within a year with almost 300 million tons of oil, 2,4 thousand tons of iron ore, 100 thousand tons of cast iron and iron scrap, XNUMX, XNUMX tons of platinum, XNUMX thousand tons of chrome ore, as well as a large amount of timber and manganese ore. In addition, the USSR promised to purchase various types of raw materials for Germany in third countries. Germany also received the right to rail transit from Iran, Romania and the countries of the Far East
      - in a little more than a year of the trade agreement - from the spring of 1940 to June 1941, Germany received 1 million tons of wheat, 900 thousand tons of petroleum products, 100 thousand tons of cotton, 500 thousand tons of phosphates, a significant amount of strategic materials . The USSR also provided the Germans with transit transportation through Soviet territory of 1 million tons of soybeans from Manchuria, a significant amount of rubber, tin and other materials from Southeast Asia. In addition, the USSR agreed to purchase metals and raw materials for Germany in third countries
      THIS WAS DURING THE PERIOD WHEN ENGLAND FIGHTED FASCISM
      1. 0
        5 October 2016 20: 54
        WANT TO . READ.
        THE SECOND WORLD WAR WAS GOING ON.
        ALL DECENT PEOPLE FIGHTED FASCISM
        Stalin also allowed the Germans to use the Northern Sea Route and refuel and repair ships in the Soviet Arctic. The Germans have used these services since September 1939
        - in August 1940, the icebreakers "Lenin", "Stalin" and "Kaganovich" guided the German raider "Komet" through the Arctic Ocean into the Pacific Ocean, which subsequently sank 6 allied ships. For piloting the Comet, the USSR received goods worth 950 thousand German marks
        - The USSR gave Germany 2000 aerial bombs weighing from 500 to 1000 kg for bombing England
        - since October 1939, German submarines begin to use Soviet port harbors in the Barents Sea
        - in the port of Polyarny there was a naval base of a German submarine division

        - The Germans used 2 naval bases on the territory of the USSR until the complete capture of Norway
        - since November 1939, the USSR provided Germany with an anchorage in Zapadnaya Liza Bay on the southern side of Motovskaya Bay, west of Polyarnaya, which became the Kriegmarine’s Sever base, especially actively used by German submarines
        - at the request of Guderian, the heavy artillery brigade of General Semyon Krivoshein hit the Polish garrison of the Brest Fortress for 2 days during the defeat of Poland in 1939
        - in 1939-40, 36 largest German transports were hiding from the British in the Kola Bay (Murmansk), among which were such world-famous passenger liners as the Bremen (50 thousand tons of displacement), New York, Schwaben ", "Stuttgart", "Cordillera", "Saint Louis", many timber carriers, tankers, high-speed refrigerators and a division of German submarines - in 1939-40, the USSR allowed the transit through its territory of supplies of strategic raw materials from Japan and China to Germany: rubber , oils, valuable wood species, etc.
        - before the attack on Norway in the Kola Bay of the USSR there were two German military transports with troops on board and the largest German tanker Jan Wellem
        - more than 20 thousand future German officers were trained for the Wehrmacht in military educational institutions of the USSR

        - until the summer of 1941, the NKVD transported about 4 thousand people to Germany, among them the families of German communists arrested in the USSR and executed (in total, 242 German communists were shot in the USSR before the war), as well as German workers who moved to the West during the years of the economic crisis in USSR. Most of them were immediately sent to concentration camps by the Gestapo. In turn, the Nazis deported to the USSR persons who were wanted by the NKVD
        - after the Germans captured Norway, Denmark, Holland and Belgium, Stalin, to please Hitler, broke off diplomatic relations with these countries and expelled the diplomatic missions of these countries from the USSR
        - since December 1939 until the end of May 1941 Germany imported from the USSR 1 million tons of petroleum products worth 95 million German marks, grain (mainly feed) -1,6 million tons. by 250 million marks, cotton - 111 thousand tons by 100 million marks, oil cake -36 thousand tons by 6,4 million marks, flax - 10 thousand tons by 14,7 million marks, timber - by 41,3 .1,8 million marks, nickel - 8,1 thousand tons for 185 million marks, manganese ore - 7,6 thousand tons for 23 million marks, chrome ore - 2 thousand tons for 214 million marks, phosphates - 6 thousand tons for 14 million marks, 500 thousand tons. copper, platinum, as well as other goods, in addition to the above, during this period of time it is necessary to add 2,782 tons of tungsten, tin and molybdenum, 11300 tons of platinum, scrap iron and furs, XNUMX tons of flax tow, cotton waste, rags
        - in 1940, Germany received 657 thousand tons of petroleum products (75% of all Soviet exports of petroleum products) from 31,1 million tons of oil produced by the USSR and almost 1 million tons of grain from 95,6 million tons harvested in the USSR
        - Germany’s share amounted to 40% of all USSR exports in 1939-41
        - until 1941 there was a joint German-Soviet airline, headed by the Soviet pilot V. Grizodubova
        - uninterrupted supplies from the USSR of bread, meat, butter and eggs allowed Germany, where the card system operated, to create the necessary food supplies in case of war
        1. +1
          5 October 2016 23: 29
          You have another problem with reading Russian.
          I repeat my questions that relate to your naming =Lend-Lease= normal trade between the USSR and Germany:
          prove that the USSR supplied Hitler with weapons and military equipment in 1940-41.
          Prove that supplies of grain and raw materials from the USSR to Germany were preferential for Hitler.
          That a state loan was allocated for this in the USSR.

          All the information you provided - for once you did it, congratulations! laughing - do not provide such evidence.

          Quote: Hupfri
          THIS WAS DURING THE PERIOD WHEN ENGLAND FIGHTED FASCISM

          There’s no need to shout like that, I heard it quite well the first time (C) laughing
          So what? Where was England when the USSR was fighting fascism in Spain? She indulged the fascists and prevented Soviet assistance to the legitimate, democratically elected government.

          Where was England when Hitler demilitarized the Rhineland and then arranged the Anschluss of Austria? She reassured the whole world that there was nothing to worry about, let the child play enough.

          Where was England during the division of Czechoslovakia and the subsequent seizure of the remnants of what was divided? When did the USSR offer its assistance in curbing the aggressor?
          Yes, England itself organized that division, together with another equally innocent victim, France.

          Where were England and France when the USSR proposed organizing a collective security treaty before 1939? They spat.

          In general, England fed the fascist beast to its neighbors, and itself got rid of it. What she was fighting for, she ran into, and only then did she start shouting “guard!!!”

          And also, during the same period when England was fighting against the fascism it had nurtured, and “all honest people” (C) laughing should not have known a quiet second about this -
          The USA you praise traded with Hitler in the same way as the USSR, and for some reason this does not bother you at all. laughing
          1. 0
            12 October 2016 06: 49
            Moreover, the Stalinist USSR traded with Germany and Italy only because it itself was under sanctions and under an embargo, and the same equipment that the USA, Great Britain and France supplied (often on credit or as assistance) to Imperial Japan, which was sharpening its teeth in Mongolia, Siberia and the Far East , they were not sold in the USSR even for gold.
  63. +1
    5 October 2016 12: 46
    Ulan,
    What’s easier, I stole and did, but the fact that you need to have a scientific school, highly qualified specialists (scientists, engineers, workers, organizers, etc.) and a developed industry ready to carry out this project is a mystery for them with seven seals .

    Well, I’ll tell you this secret. They stole not only a bomb, but also took away many captured scientists from Germany, von Ardenne was awarded the Stalin Prize, and the same fate befell German specialists in rocket and jet technology
    1. +1
      5 October 2016 13: 04
      Quote: Hupfri
      von Ardenne was awarded the Stalin Prize, the same fate befell German specialists in rocket and jet technology

      You can also recall a group of German specialists in the field of small arms working in Izhevsk. Later it was called by the general name "Kalashnikov".
      1. 0
        5 October 2016 17: 31
        You know, thank God, these clowns are not allowed into power.
        And they won't let me in. Their time is up. So they get mad
        As for Soviet science, it began with captured Germans.
        After Stalin's death it was a completely different state.
        1. +1
          5 October 2016 18: 14
          Quote: Hupfri
          After Stalin's death it was a completely different state.

          Not certainly in that way. The USSR became different after the revolution carried out by Khrushchev. And he actually accomplished it in April 1956, transferring relations in the USSR from slaveholding to feudal. Those. then the USSR became a pseudo-religious feudal state. Later, this form of government was called “developed socialism.” Moreover, after the reactionary coup of 1937. Mustachioed Joe it was a pseudo-religious slave state (called “socialism” for short).
          Khrushchev planned to overthrow the party, trying to turn the USSR into a secular state. Feudal, of course, under the rule of oneself, the beloved. But the party turned around and knocked down Khrushchev. Thus, the chance to preserve the USSR in a new form (secular) was missed.
          1. 0
            5 October 2016 21: 26
            An interesting interpretation.
            In my opinion, they stupidly fought for power without bothering with ideological subtleties. It was a fight for survival.
    2. +1
      5 October 2016 13: 27
      Quote: Hupfri
      German specialists in rocket and jet technology

      G. Gerttrup's wife wrote in her memoirs that he cried when the first artificial Earth satellite was launched. Shortly before this, all Germans were removed from the USSR. And the launch vehicle was, of course, made exclusively by Soviet specialists.
      Moreover, in 1944. The RD-1, designed by Glushko, had a thrust of 300 kg. And the GIRD-X rocket, created by Korolev back in 1933, had a thrust of 75 kg. The work did not progress further.
      By 1942, the Germans had a von Braun A-4 rocket with an engine created by Walter Thiel with a thrust of 25 tons.
      Feel the difference.
      If anyone doesn’t know, Helmut Gröttrup is the direct executor of von Braun’s projects. Technical director, so to speak. While von Braun is still a more representative figure. And the organizer, of course.
      1. +1
        5 October 2016 15: 27
        The removal and use of valuable specialists from a defeated enemy country is, of course, sacred.

        However, you draw conclusions from the facts you listed *weird and illegal* - Well, of course, the Germans made their contribution. Even, let’s say, it’s significant. Although you are not able to clarify which one exactly - primarily due to your own deep darkness in the topic laughing The story about tears in the eyes is, of course, touching, but so what? lol

        Now let’s remember the facts that were classified for you: after the first Sputnik, Soviet cosmonautics, already without the Germans, not only slowed down - it continued to develop very confidently, maintaining a lead from the American one. And this is the merit of only the USSR itself.
        1. 0
          5 October 2016 21: 05
          And now let’s remember the facts that were classified for you: after the first satellite, Soviet cosmonautics, already without the Germans, not only slowed down - it continued to develop very confidently

          Who can argue, the Germans worked for us for 10 years, during this period we got all the groundwork, jet planes, guided torpedoes, anti-aircraft missiles appeared... this seems to be a secret for you. Well, of course, Uchpedgiz didn’t write this; it was possible to go to the camp.
          1. +1
            6 October 2016 07: 11
            Once again for * especially talented * : after the release of all captured Germans from the USSR, all these areas in the USSR continued to develop steadily and quickly, significantly ahead of the United States, in which captured Germans also did a fair amount of work. Conclusions? lol
      2. 0
        5 October 2016 17: 43
        Chertok wrote about this
        In his memoirs there is a theme of how he, Korolev and Glushko, dressed in colonel’s uniforms, went to Germany. There, with great surprise, they discovered engines from the V-2 in varying degrees of readiness. Korolev (by the way, a former Gulag prisoner) climbed inside the chamber and examined it. We've never had anything like this, not even close. Our future rocket scientists organized an institute in Germany, gathered all the starving German rocket scientists there and then sent them all to the USSR. The Germans worked in the Union for 10 years.
      3. 0
        5 October 2016 21: 33
        While von Braun is still a more representative figure. And the organizer, of course.

        Von Braun later worked in the States on the lunar program.
        In Germany, of course, he had connections at the very top. He is Eva Braun's brother
        1. 0
          5 October 2016 21: 49
          Quote: Hupfri
          He is Eva Braun's brother

          Still, Braun and von Braun are a little different.
  64. +1
    5 October 2016 14: 07
    Quote: rjxtufh
    You can also recall a group of German specialists in the field of small arms working in Izhevsk. Later it was called by the general name "Kalashnikov".

    Oh, you've come out to disgrace yourself again with this old myth! laughing

    1. The trick is that the AK was first made by Kalashnikov in Kovrov, near Degtyarev.
    Look at the map, you are ridiculous: where is Kovrov and where is Izhevsk.

    2. In addition, the removal of German specialists took place in 1945.
    And the Soviet-style intermediate cartridge was made in 1943, and had quite serious differences from the German Kurz cartridge, and work on creating weapons for this cartridge had already yielded results since 1944.
    Kalashnikov, yes, borrowed something - but from his Soviet colleagues, starting with Sudaev, we considered this completely normal.

    3. All these German specialists, after returning to Germany, did not claim any rights to the AK, and they themselves did nothing comparable for the rest of their lives.

    4. Kalashnikov made his own weapons before the AK, and after the AK, and after the return of the Germans to Germany, he created many samples of weapons that went into production and are still working successfully, and many other samples - also worthy, but inferior to more successful ones.
    Including the development of fundamentally different types of weapons.

    So congratulations - you once again *performed poorly* and publicly *revealed the inconsistency of their ideas on the topic under discussion* laughing
    1. 0
      5 October 2016 21: 18
      1. The trick is that the AK was first made by Kalashnikov in Kovrov, near Degtyarev.
      Look at the map, you are ridiculous: where is Kovrov and where is Izhevsk.

      Half a day of summer in the Dakotas. Sorry, on Lee 2.
      The queen was brought from Kolyma. Where is Kolyma and where is Moscow.
      And the Soviet-style intermediate cartridge was made in 1943, and had quite serious differences from the German Kurz cartridge

      When was the Kurtz cartridge made? In the 29th or 30th. And what does this prove?
      There is a TT chambered for 7,62, and there is one chambered for 9 mm. And what?
      Kalashnikov made his own weapons before the AK, and after the AK, and after the Germans returned to Germany, he created many weapons

      Which ones? The same type of machine gun as a machine gun? What else?
      . All these German specialists, after returning to Germany, did not claim any rights to the AK, and they themselves did nothing comparable for the rest of their lives.

      Moreover. AK was copied by everyone and the USSR never made any claims to anyone. They continue to copy today. The USSR does not and never had a patent for the AK-47, but this is a secret for you
      AK is a good machine gun, having made it difficult to make something better, even for the rest of its life
  65. 0
    5 October 2016 20: 11
    Quote: Hupfri
    As for Soviet science, it began with captured Germans

    Yeah, yeah, can you really lie! That's how it was! laughing

    The bloody Stalinist regime kidnapped the captured Germans from 1945, and transferred them with a time machine to the late 20s - early 30s to create Soviet science! laughing

    By the way, where are your answers to my long-asked questions? Where are the wonderful tales you promised about the US fight against fascism before 1941? Where is your secret knowledge about the breakdown of synthetic gasoline from frost? Where are your links to the real sources of your wondrous magical sagas? Is God's dew still going on for you? lol
    1. 0
      9 October 2016 12: 07
      The bloody Stalinist regime kidnapped captured Germans from 1945 and transferred them by time machine to the late 20s - early 30s to create Soviet science

      Due to your narrow-mindedness and bias, you cannot understand the obvious.
      There was no Soviet science before the war. There were small laboratories and design bureaus.
      Then we bought samples from the West and worked on them. But the number of such ascetics was relatively small
  66. 0
    5 October 2016 22: 27
    German troops enter the Eagle
    Why snow?? Is it winter? Perhaps simply - German troops in Orel?
  67. 0
    6 October 2016 00: 12
    Quote: Hupfri
    Half a day of summer in the Dakotas. Sorry, on Lee 2.

    Are you trying to pass yourself off as a person who has even a remote understanding of the work of an engineer? wink
    And by the way, they still haven’t admitted where they got this very concept from? lol

    And for an understanding person, the very idea is wild that a specialist can, after flying half a day by plane from one design bureau to another and, say, flying back for another night, in the meantime create a new original weapon laughing

    Another obvious problem is also incomprehensible: why should work on creating a new weapon be carried out in one city, and the specialists intended for this work be kept in another city, 3/4 thousand km away? wassat

    And by the way, why didn’t you “notice” the inconsistencies in your version that I noticed in the previous message for more than a year? laughing
    1. 0
      9 October 2016 11: 55
      And for a person who understands, the very idea is wild that a specialist can, after flying for half a day on an airplane from one design bureau to another and, say, flying back for another night, in the interval create a new original weapon laughing

      Do you have a schedule of work and movements of Hugo Schmeiser throughout the territory of the Soviet Union? Do you have a schedule and plan for his work? Hugo couldn't fly on a long three-week business trip, for example? What was stopping him? He was a prisoner of war. Actually. He had no choice
      1. 0
        9 October 2016 12: 00
        Another obvious problem is also incomprehensible: why should work on creating a new weapon be carried out in one city, and the specialists intended for this work be kept in another city, 3/4 thousand km away?

        What is unclear here? A gunsmith of this level is in great demand.
        The Soviet Union conducted extensive scientific and technical developments in the field of small arms. PPSh, DP 27 and three-ruler no longer met modern requirements; something else was urgently needed
  68. 0
    6 October 2016 00: 27
    Quote: Hupfri
    Which ones? The same type of machine gun as a machine gun? What else?

    Your deep ignorance in topics where you are also trying to teach someone has not surprised me for a long time lol
    Your impudent self-confidence is also not surprising - when you consider your ignorance, as a result of your dense ignorance, to be a sufficient argument for denying facts known to even the slightest knowledgeable people.

    Of those adopted for service and into mass production, Kalashnikov had: the same machine gun (in numerous modifications), a light machine gun unified with it, a single machine gun chambered for a completely different cartridge and with a fundamentally different device.

    Of the weapons he brought to a combat-ready state, but lost in the competition, there were: a submachine gun, more than one; a light machine gun chambered for a rifle cartridge as an alternative to the DP; automatic pistol (analogue of the Stechkin pistol); self-loading sniper rifle (similar to SVD). Not bad, right?

    The same Hugo Schmeisser, besides submachine guns and a Sturmgewehr, had nothing to his name.
  69. +1
    6 October 2016 01: 01
    rjxtufh,
    Yeah! Taking into account the fact that the French destroyed their fleet in Toulon in 1942, and finally fell under the Germans. This is an outstanding operation.
  70. +1
    6 October 2016 07: 08
    Quote: Hupfri
    So 400 cars were delivered and that's equal to four percent

    You lie and distort too brazenly, which you have been caught doing many times. Now - once again.
    Find where I, or someone else besides you, argued about 4%.
    And I can poke you your lying face in that message where I wrote: “for cars - much more than 4%.”

    Therefore, your further refutation of your own lies is not at all interesting.
  71. +1
    6 October 2016 07: 58
    rjxtufh,
    Regarding trolling, are you talking about yourself and your partner?
    Indeed, your level of understanding of the problem is like that of a Scandinavian troll, who in mythology looks like a real stone blockhead.
    Don’t even think about being offended, otherwise you will have to finally admit that the troll - you and your partner - is the same mythological character from Scandinavian fairy tales.
  72. +1
    6 October 2016 12: 30
    By the way, more about cars, Lend-Lease and lies.

    Typically, anti-Soviet people like to repeat that 400 thousand cars were delivered to the USSR under Lend-Lease during the war, and the USSR’s own production in the same years amounted to 266 thousand, that is, Lend-Lease deliveries were 1,5 times more than its own Soviet production (although those who are especially talented in arithmetic count 2,5 times), and the role of supplies is thus 60% (especially talented people can have from 70% to 90%, depending on how much talent and conscience they have).

    And now the session of black magic ends with its traditional exposure. Hello-op! bully

    1. Even such figures, even if they were true, cannot be compared with the more than 90% dependence of RI during WWI on foreign supplies of high-tech units - engines, gearboxes, other components, as well as finished cars and aircraft, incl. in the form of assembly kits.

    2. The USSR had, in addition to the cars produced during the war, also those created in previous years.

    3. And this was a lot. More than a million cars were produced in the USSR before the war (in the Republic of Ingushetia - less than 1 thousand in its entire history), at least 300 thousand of this quantity were delivered directly to the Red Army.

    4. In addition, about 200 thousand were mobilized from the national economy into the army in 1941; another small number in subsequent years can not be counted.

    5. So: Soviet-made Soviet cars were produced before 1945. 1,266 million + 0,4 million received under Lend-Lease. This turns out that the role of supplies in the total number of cars in the USSR is 24%.

    6. Even if we subtract the cars remaining in the market (although this is already a speculative shift from pocket to pocket), the role of supplies is still no higher than 44%.

    feel the difference laughing

    But this is the most significant component of Lend-Lease compared to the USSR’s own resources!
    1. 0
      6 October 2016 15: 04
      Cats against dogs, but both against Russians. Two trolls started a percentage fight. One praises the Republic of Ingushetia and vilifies the Stalinist USSR, the other praises the Soviet people and vilifies Tsarist Russia.
      1. 0
        9 October 2016 11: 41
        Cats against dogs, but both against Russians.

        The collective farm economy was not set up for the development of the Russian people.
        She paid for the parasitism of backward national provinces and “friendly peoples who have taken the path of socialism”
        The communists did not even bother to create a Russian branch of the All-Union Communist Party of Belarus.
        They were afraid that the people would unite and throw off the yoke. The communist you are has no right to be considered Russian. Militant Internationalism is your ideology
        1. 0
          11 October 2016 14: 08
          let's write something else about the "red plague", Rockefeller's dog.
    2. 0
      9 October 2016 00: 06
      5. So: Soviet-made Soviet cars were produced before 1945. 1,266 million + 0,4 million received under Lend-Lease. This turns out that the role of supplies in the total number of cars in the USSR is 24%.

      This is in the case that your cars were alive and well.
      In 41 alone, 200 vehicles were lost. This trend continued in subsequent years
      And in the pre-war years, not all units survived to the 41st. The Finns were given a lot along with T-26 tanks.
      So all that remains from the pre-war million are horns and legs
      The Kharkov plant was lost, it was not even evacuated, the Stalingrad plant. ...
      The Gorky plant did not produce any trucks or jeeps.
      The Gorky plant produced tanks.
      The legendary Katyushas were installed mainly on American cars - all-wheel drive three-axle students. Before the students appeared, the guides stood on the ground. They fired, fired a volley... then the Germans fired a volley in response. That's all. There are no Katyushas. The students allowed us to quickly get away. No losses. It seems like a secret to you
      We had no analogues. There were 6 ZiS 200s.
      If we take the number of installations as 10, then there were 000% American machines and 98% Soviet ones.
      The USSR did not produce all-wheel drive trucks. 100% Lend Lease. Armored personnel carriers and amphibians are the same
      Jeeps produced 2-3. Received 000. That means 60% share of the USSR, 000% Lend Lease.
      The USSR did not produce steam locomotives during the war. And they died en masse.
      Where are the locomotives from? And everything comes from the same place.
      Gunpowder remained in Ukraine. Many armies fight without ammunition.
      How many planes fly without gasoline?
      You divide the cubic kilometers of lumber sawn by prisoners by millions of tons of aviation gasoline and you get a petty figure of 4%
      So you can fake anything
  73. 0
    6 October 2016 13: 19
    By the way, I thought here.
    For some reason, many, almost all “Russian patriots” who use this image of themselves to attack the USSR from the standpoint of the supposedly heavenly perfection of the Russian Empire, usually have the following number of interesting properties:
    1. They joyfully multiply the losses of our people in the Second World War.
    2. They diligently belittle our Victory.
    3. They extol the United States and its role in WWII - justifying in every possible way their sitting behind our backs.
    4. They prefer English-language terminology; they don’t like to use our domestic terminology, and they know it very poorly.
    5. In general, they often have obvious problems with the use of the Russian literary language. The “Russian patriots” speak Russian poorly, very poorly.

    So I started thinking: how Russian are they in general, why and for whom do they care so much?
    1. 0
      6 October 2016 15: 15
      Soviet language, Soviet... like the language, so Russian, like victories, so “our people”...
      other Soviet "patriots" like to glorify the USSR only by belittling Tsarist Russia, which the Entente "allies" abandoned for two years in a row and then at least once more sitting on the defensive when the Republic of Ingushetia alone fought off three Axis countries, or saving themselves, " saved Paris,” and which never stooped to call, like France, foreign military units on its western front, including... Russians, foreigners were not obliged to serve at all.
      1. 0
        9 October 2016 11: 24
        "allies" in the Entente were abandoned for two years in a row and then at least once more sitting on the defensive when the Republic of Ingushetia alone fought off three Axis countries, or, saving itself, "saved Paris",

        What nonsense.
        Verdun, Somme, Marne, Cambrai, ..... the western front was the main one.
        There were battles on the scale of our Stalingrad.
        Well, we wouldn’t have saved Paris. The Kaiser would crush France. Then he would take care of us. There would have been the same 41st only in 14th. So everything was right.
        We were crippled by the treacherous October coup
        1. 0
          11 October 2016 14: 12
          The main one was Eastern. You're talking nonsense. During the German offensive of 1915 in Poland, the “allies” sat and rubbed their hands... none of them saved Warsaw.
          They were hardly less enthusiastic about this coup than the Germans
          1. 0
            11 October 2016 15: 22
            Quote: Magua-001
            The main one was Eastern.

            That's where the Germans kept auxiliary troops.
            Quote: Magua-001
            none of them saved Warsaw

            What kind of center of world civilization is this, Warsaw?
            By the way, Pilsudski’s Polish troops fought as part of the Austro-Hungarian army.
            Quote: Magua-001
            Soviet language, Soviet

            Insanity grew stronger ...
            1. 0
              12 October 2016 04: 36
              Saving Austria more than once... the Germans kept auxiliaries in the West and during the Second World War.
              Russia fought on its front against three opponents at once, England and France with only one Germany.
              WWI was certainly more stressful for the Entente “allies” than WWII.

              Warsaw is such an important city. What is the center of Paris? The Louvre is full of fleas and a cemetery under the city?
              And did Pilsudski have many of them?

              you have insanity.
    2. 0
      9 October 2016 00: 10
      By the way, I thought here

      I just don’t want to pay 30 million in the next war.
      Unlike you, who are ready at any cost.
      You do your best to justify the mediocrity of the generals, the meanness of dignitaries who live on the people’s hump, and the incompetence of business executives.
      It doesn’t matter, the main thing is Victory. And how many senseless losses there were, it’s nonsense.
      Women are still giving birth, so you think
      1. 0
        9 October 2016 00: 57
        The USSR lost 16 million in WWII. 8 million military and 8 civilians. Another 12 are thrown in by all sorts of Trotskyist dogs in order to underestimate the losses suffered by the Russians during the Red Terror.
        1. 0
          9 October 2016 11: 18
          . Another 12 are thrown by all sorts of Trotskyist dogs,

          IT’S not all that simple and is calculated based on the census results using statistical methods. 27 there exactly.
          There is one subtlety here. Many simply went to the West. Here, Soviet science is buzzing like a bug, so the recognition of the millions who have left perfectly characterizes the collective farm system.
          Dog Trotsky, by the way, is a friend of Lenin and the creator of the Red Army
          1. 0
            11 October 2016 09: 45
            Statistics even in the USA do not really try to hide the death of 3,7 million people from hunger during the Depression.
            he also came from there and destroyed the population of entire regions in Russia, that’s why you love him so much
  74. +1
    6 October 2016 14: 48
    Simpsonian, judging by his writings, I’m not at all sure that he is actually Russian. And if he really comes from our family, then his ancestors definitely sat out on the Tashkent front. He really hates Soviet soldiers and Soviet victories.
  75. +1
    6 October 2016 19: 36
    rjxtufh,
    Folklore is just right for you. I have no reason not to believe my loved one, who only told me about the war a couple of times in his life, and then by chance, and extremely sparingly. Tell me also about the post-war years, my father grew up in Rostock and Schwerin, about my grandfather’s place of service. And to doubt the possibility of an American-British-German agreement with the Allied flag over Berlin, with Poland always currying favor with the Anglo-Saxons, with the Hungarians having just abandoned Hitler, with the slogan “fight against Bolshevism” not lifted by anyone in the West - one would have to be suicidal. Excuse me. I repeat once again, for the die-hards: a terrible price was paid for Berlin. I would like less. The Germans did not allow us to pay less. But in the end they received the Warsaw Pact, and not the new Curzon Line. That's the whole story. The presence of a powerful Soviet ground force in the “eastern zone” was practically the only thing that restrained our “partners” in the late 40s/early 50s from the temptation to educate the Soviet with the help of atomic “fat boys” and “little ones.” If they had not taken Berlin, there would have been nothing to threaten the adversary with. And you can continue to safely remain in your opinion. Convenient. Because we passed and nothing is in danger.
    1. +1
      6 October 2016 20: 11
      Quote: andrew42
      And to doubt the possibility of an American-British-German agreement with the Allied flag over Berlin, with Poland always currying favor with the Anglo-Saxons, with the Hungarians having just abandoned Hitler, with the slogan “fight against Bolshevism” not lifted by anyone in the West - one would have to be suicidal.

      Well, that means sane people are suicides.
      Quote: andrew42
      I repeat again, for the die-hards

      Are you muttering under your breath?
      Quote: andrew42
      a terrible price was paid for Berlin.

      Well, does anyone argue with this?
      Quote: andrew42
      But in the end they received the Warsaw Pact, and not the new Curzon Line.

      Everyone received this on September 29.09.41, XNUMX. And the duty to storm Berlin at the same time.
      Quote: andrew42
      the presence of a powerful Soviet ground force in the “eastern zone”

      There was no “powerful Soviet group.” The USSR conscripted 17-year-olds into the army. The USSR's mobile resources dried up at the end of 1943. After that, everyone began to row, indiscriminately.
      Quote: andrew42
      this is practically the only thing that restrained our “partners” in the late 40s/early 50s from the temptation to educate the Soviet with the help of atomic “fat boys” and “little ones”

      Bullshit ordinary ravings.
      Quote: andrew42
      If they had not taken Berlin, there would have been nothing to threaten the adversary with.

      Those. Wouldn't it be possible to make threats from Potsdam?
      The last time I heard a collection of such nonsense was on political information in the army. I even forgot what year. But it’s okay there, the political officer is uneducated and, moreover, the country is closed. But what is stopping you from developing?
      1. +1
        6 October 2016 21: 02
        What is stopping you from developing? You say it yourself - there is plenty of information everywhere.
        Only now all the information that is in favor of the USSR is categorically classified for you - so you have to collect long-rotten inventions from all the trash heaps, and diligently turn away from what is visible at every step.

        I can also understand your hatred of textbooks: many ignoramuses like you have the same hatred from childhood to old age. laughing

        But your Very Authoritative Opinion still cannot cause anything other than laughter among knowledgeable people. lol
        And the truth, if it is such, will not cease to be the truth just because it was written in a textbook you don’t like, even 10 years ago, even 100 years ago. tongue
    2. 0
      9 October 2016 11: 11
      : a terrible price was paid for Berlin.

      And also for Budapest and Vienna, for Koenigsberg, for Stalingrad, for Rzhev.... for the training of our commanders, and how much they paid in the rear... from malnutrition and hard labor, from the brainless policies of business executives... they paid a terrible price. That's what I'm talking about
      .
      1. 0
        11 October 2016 09: 47
        Well, you tried, someday you will have to pay for it too
  76. +1
    9 October 2016 09: 40
    What are you talking about here, there is a normal article on lend-lease on topware https://topwar.ru/1706-lend-liz-mify-i-realnost.h
    tml
    , in my opinion, a competent layout, and there all your rubbish is clearly laid out on the shelves 100%.
    And in truth, topvar is slowly turning into a censor - sad(
    1. 0
      9 October 2016 10: 53
      What does Lend Lease have to do with it? Here is a fundamental conversation between cheering patriots mourning a time that has passed forever and people trying to understand the incredible intricacies of that great war and politics
      1. The comment was deleted.
  77. +1
    12 October 2016 21: 29
    Somehow I didn’t see the disaster in this article, but there was one - 600 thousand prisoners. The loss for the country is irreparable because many divisions were so-called DNO (divisions of people's militia), staffed by volunteers from Moscow scientists, intellectuals and educated workers. These civilians were initially poorly armed (according to recollections, they were first armed with some kind of captured weapons from the times of the 1st World War) and often without uniforms on their own prepared a line of defense, then received mosinki and maxims, acquired some war skills and successfully fought local battles, taking advantage of the respite on the Central Front. At the beginning of the enemy offensive, they fought bravely and repelled the first attacks, which were more of a demonstration because they were already surrounded. Then the order for redeployment came and a gigantic traffic jam of troops formed over hundreds of kilometers. The Germans didn’t even bomb this colossal column of 6 rows of cars and other equipment. A week of slow movement in traffic jams towards Moscow exhausted people and some desperate daredevils, mostly career military men, guessed about the encirclement and went for a breakthrough, but most of the hungry and frozen recruits surrendered. Those who broke through dozens of encirclement rings were forced to repel new enemy attacks under the walls of the capital without respite. There was a case when one heroic brigade commander, who fought to bring his people and those who joined him out of hell, was shot on the orders of Zhukov for retreating near Moscow.
  78. 0
    7 July 2017 11: 22
    It was a big surprise - the Germans struck not at all where they were expected and where a particularly strong defense was built. A big hello to all “hard defense” apologists. There is no way to be equally strong in all places at once. There will always be a point where the enemy can create overwhelming superiority. And after the front is broken through, well-equipped positions have to be abandoned. And in tank-dangerous directions near Bryansk and Vyazma there was a carriage and a small cart.
    1. 0
      7 July 2017 23: 42
      For a highly respected connoisseur of Russian literature...
      Write "wagon and small cart"...
      Needs to be in quotes. Since you are citing an idiomatic expression...
      Rating..."three"...
  79. 0
    7 July 2017 14: 06
    [quote=Hupfrey][quote]. Here, Soviet science is buzzing like a bug, so the recognition of millions of those who have left perfectly characterizes the collective farm system.[/quote]
    Why are you still not in the West? The collective farm system is just right for you.
  80. 0
    7 July 2017 14: 07
    Quote: geologist
    There was a case when one heroic brigade commander, who fought to bring his people and those who joined him out of hell, was shot on the orders of Zhukov for retreating near Moscow.

    Did you see it yourself or did you read it from Solzhenitsyn?