Fight in the Yellow Sea 28 July 1904 g. Part of 4. Armadillos in the ranks, or altercations about the fate of the squadron

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By the beginning of June 1904, all the armadillos of Port Arthur had gained technical readiness to sail. May 15 was repaired by Sevastopol, May 23 - Retvizan, two days later - Tsesarevich, and, finally, May 27 Victory returns to the system. There is no longer any reason to continue to defend Arthur’s inner raid, and on May 9, Wilhelm Karlovich Vitgeft sent a telegram to the governor of 21:

“Battleships, except for“ Victory ”, cruisers are ready to leave. An adversary in 15 versts from Arthur. Whether to go to sea, to engage in battle, or to remain ”(telegram No. 28 from 21 in May 1904 g, received by the vicar of 1 in June 1904).


And then ... The conventional wisdom:
1. Alekseev demanded that V.K. Vitgefta go to Vladivostok, and he in every possible way refused and did not want to do this.
2. Temporarily, etc. commander of the squadron preferred to use the fleet to protect Port Arthur on the model and likeness of the defense of Sevastopol 1854-55. during the Crimean War.
3. The squadron flagships supported Rear Admiral V.K. Vitgeft.

Now often there are reproaches of insufficient decisiveness (or even cowardice) of the squadron commanders: they didn’t want to go into battle, they hoped to sit behind the fortress walls ... But, reading the documents of that era, you come to the conclusion that the matter is much more complicated: the governor Alekseev, Rear Admiral V.K. Witgeft and the flagships and commanders of the 1 rank ships in completely different ways imagined the tasks of the port-arthur squadron.

Governor Alekseev believed that the Japanese fleet was significantly weakened. Even before V.K. For the first time, Vitgeft brought a squadron into the sea (10 June 1904) Alekseev reported temporarily id The commander of the Pacific squadron that the Japanese have at Port Arthur only the 2 battleship and the 5 armored cruisers. Alekseev showed even more optimism in his telegram No. 5 from June 11 (received in Port Arthur only June 21):

"I report the state of Japanese fleet: drowned "Hatsuse", "Shikishima", "Ioshino", "Miyako"; at the docks - “Fuji”, “Asama”, “Iwate”, “Yakumo”, “Azuma”, “Kassuga”; only Asahi, Mikasa, Tokiva, Izumi are serviceable (probably a typo, meant the armored cruiser "Izumo". - Approx. auth.), "Nissin".


Here Evgeny Ivanovich (Alekseev) reduced the Japanese fleet to 2 battleships and 3 armored cruisers. I wonder how I read this telegram to Wilhelm Karlovich, who, the day before this telegram was sent, met at sea 4 battleship (not counting "Chin Ien") and 4 armored cruisers of the Japanese?

So, the governor believed that the force opposing the Arturians at sea had significantly weakened. At the same time, he feared a Japanese ground attack on Port Arthur and rightly believed that the preservation of the squadron was more important than the preservation of the fortress. In accordance with these considerations, and despite the general unpreparedness of the squadron, he gave the order to divert ships to Vladivostok:

“... I take all measures for the quickest unlock of Arthur. But in view of every chance, the fleet, defending the fortress, needs to prepare for the last extreme, go to sea for a decisive battle with the enemy, break it, and make its way to Vladivostok ... ”(telegram No. 1813 from 19 in May 1904, received on 3 squadron in June 1904 ).


However, after five days, the governor clarified his position:

“If the squadron manages to destroy the enemy fleet and Arthur still holds, the squadron’s duty instead of leaving Vladivostok is to help lift the siege of the fortress and support the actions of our troops sent to the rescue of Arthur ...” (telegram No. 1861 from 23 in May 1904, received by squadron 31 May 1904).


Thus, the position of the governor was reduced to the fact that it was necessary to leave the fortress and go to Vladivostok, taking advantage of the relative weakness of the enemy. If you suddenly manage to break it along the road, then it makes no sense to go to Vladivostok and you can stay in Port Arthur, helping the fortress.

Originally V.K. Vitgeft seemed to share the opinion of his boss. In response to the telegram from the governor of 6 June:

"... as soon as all the ships are ready and the first favorable moment is presented for the squadron’s release against the enemy that is now weakened at sea, decide this important and serious step without hesitation."


The rear admiral replied:

“... The enemy is not terrible. Delayed exit without extremes, doubting the safety of mines; in the 10 area, the mines explode in all directions ... I go out according to high water, about the tenth. In the event of death, I ask you to pathe my wife's pension, I have no money. ”


It is extremely strange to read. "The enemy is not terrible"? Since March, the squadron did not withdraw from the internal raid, the newest Retvizan and Tsesarevich didn’t have any preparation at all since the fall of 1903 - only twelve January days, from the moment of the termination of the armed reserve to the blast at the very beginning of the war .


Battleships Tsesarevich and Retvizan on the inner roads of Port Arthur

V.K. Wiegeft, after leaving 10 in the sea, wrote to the governor in a report:

"... the squadron in a combat sense was no longer there, but there was only a meeting of ships not practicing in a squadron sailing, and the late Admiral Makarov, who died so unexpectedly, who was feverishly working on her organization in a more favorable time, left, only in that sense, raw material ... "


And yet “the enemy is not terrible,” but right there: “In case of death, please beg the pension of my wife” ...

Is it possible that V.K. Witgeft believed in the data of the governor of the extreme weakening of the Japanese fleet? It is doubtful: the Rear Admiral himself assumed that he would meet more powerful forces, telling Alekseev:

“... Once the importance and the need to leave the squadron is recognized, albeit with a risk, I will go out ready, trusting in God. I personally did not prepare for such a responsible duty. Meeting according to my information: 3 battleship, 6 armored cruisers, 5 cruisers II rank, 32 destroyer ... "(telegram number 39 from June 2, received by the governor the next day).


What did VK want to achieve with this exit? Witgeft? He reports to the deputy in the report 66 from 17 June 1904 g (report on the release of the 10 squadron in June):

“My plan for the proposed actions after the release was to have time to leave for the night at sea, away from the destroyers, hoping that the enemy’s fleet is much weaker than ours, according to the Headquarters, and is located in different places of the Yellow Sea and Pechili. In the afternoon, it was supposed to go to Elliot and, having found the enemy, attack him all or in parts. ”


VC. Vitgeft went to sea in the hope that the viceroy’s data were correct, and then he was going to give battle. However, Wilhelm Karlovich had a premonition that he himself estimated the number of the opponent who opposed him where Alekseev was more accurate, and the battle could turn out badly both for the squadron and for himself. It is possible that V.K. Witgeft had a premonition of his own death, it happens. But, be that as it may, the rear admiral led a squadron and met the United Fleet not far from Port Arthur, and in the forces that surpassed Alexeyev’s expectations, and his own. Missing only 4 armored cruisers Kamimura involved the capture of Vladivostok cruisers - they could not be quickly brought back to Arthur, but all 1-first combat unit composed 4 armadillos, "Nisshin" and "Kasuga" with the support of two armored cruisers 2-Detachment I was in front of V.K. Witgeft. For the general battle, Togo gathered all the forces available to him into a single fist: the ships of the 1 and 2 military units were accompanied by “rarities” - Matsushima and Chin-Yen of the third squadron of Vice Admiral S. Kataoka. It is not surprising that V.K. Vitgeft retreated - he did not consider himself able to fight such an opponent. Already in the evening, the battleship Sevastopol hit a mine, which caused him to have a rather lengthy repair, so that the rear admiral led the squadron to the internal raid.


Fuji squadron battleship

And he was probably quite surprised that any of his actions did not satisfy the governor at all. Despite the fact that in his first message, sent before the report of V.K. Witgeft pointed out:

"I met the enemy - 5 battleships, considering Chin-Yen, 5 or 6 armored cruisers (in fact, there were only 4. - Approx. Aut.), Counting Nissin and Kasuga, 8 cruisers of class II, 20 destroyers, why he returned to Arthur. "


Alekseev, nothing at all, answered VK. Witgeftu:

“The report of Your Excellency for the number 66 I received 17 th.
Upon careful consideration, I do not find sufficient grounds on which, instead of following my instructions, to go to sea and, after attacking the enemy, defeat him, you decided to return to the raid ... ”7 telegram No. 18.06.1904, received 20.06.1904.


Responding to a letter temporarily. the head of the Pacific Ocean squadron, directed by him to Alekseev along with a report, the governor wrote:

“Remember the battle of“ Varyag ”, and if you entered the battle with more faith in your squadron, you might have won, perhaps, a brilliant victory. I was expecting this, and all my instructions were reduced to a single goal, so that the squadron of the Pacific Ocean, having transferred a series of tests, could valiantly serve the Tsar and the homeland. ”


It is quite likely that these answers by Alekseev were completely shocked by V.K. Witgefta. After all, he was not a stupid man, and perfectly understood his inconsistency with his position, but he agreed to it because there was an order and because he was only assigned to temporarily perform duties during the general weakness of the fleet and the absence of large active operations. But then he was assigned to go out to sea and battle, even against the weakened forces of the enemy, and now he was assigned, no less than to become a real commander, to lead the fleet into battle and smash the considerably superior enemy forces!

Alekseev perfectly understood the weakness of his chief of staff and at first was not at all going to throw him into a decisive battle. But for some time he simply had no other way out: to replace the deceased S.O. Makarov, Vladivostok Vice-Admirals arrived N.I. Skrydlov and P.A. Bezobrazov, the latter was supposed to take the post of chief of the Port Arthur squadron. However, the proposals of the governor somehow convey P.A. Bezobrazova in Port Arthur N.I. Skrydlov responded with a categorical refusal due to too high a risk of such a “crossing”. But to prevent the siege of Port Arthur by the forces of the land army also did not work. And besides, Alekseev has already informed the sovereign about the need to break through the squadron to Vladivostok. Accordingly, 18 of June Nicholas II sent a telegram to his viceroy, in which he wondered why the squadron, having received no damage, nevertheless returned to Port Arthur and ends the telegram with the words:

"Therefore, I consider it necessary for our squadron to leave Port Arthur."


And so it happened that the “convenient” governor V.K. Nobody will replace Witgefta, but he cannot be defended in Arthur either. And instead of waiting for the newly arrived admiral and surrendering command, Wilhelm Karlovich now had to give the Japanese fleet a general battle on his own!

Gently, but very persistently, the governor made it clear to VK. Witgeft, that the situation had completely changed, and now the rear admiral is charged with the task of destroying the Japanese fleet or otherwise conducting the Port Arthur squadron to Vladivostok. And, obviously, he drove the latter into the blackest melancholy. That is why Wilhelm Karlovich gives an extremely pessimistic answer to the above letters of the governor:

“Without considering myself capable naval commander, I command only by virtue of chance and necessity, according to reason and conscience, until the arrival of the fleet commander. The combat troops with experienced generals retreat, not defeating, why from me, completely unprepared, with a weakened squadron, a thirteen-node course, without the destroyers, is expected to break the strongest, perfectly trained, combat seventeen-player fleet of the enemy ... Reproaches did not deserve: acted, informed honestly, truthfully about the state of affairs. I will try honestly and die, the conscience of the death of the squadron will be clear. God will forgive, then it will become clear ”(telegram No. 52 from 22 June 1904, received by the vicar of 26 June 1904).


In the same letter V.K. Witgeft outlines the possibilities that he sees for the forces entrusted to his command:

“I report to the prospect that according to the present state of affairs in Arthur, the status of the squadron, there are only two solutions - or the squadron, together with the troops, should defend Arthur before the proceeds, or perish, because the moment of departure to Vladivostok can occur only when death is in front and from behind. "


Thus, Wilhelm Karlovich outlined his position, which he followed, judging from his other letters to the governor, until the very departure to the sea and the 28 battle on July 1904 in V.K. Vitgeft did not consider it possible either to successfully fight the Japanese in the mind of Port Arthur, or to rush into Vladivostok: if he was left to himself, he probably would have written off crews and guns to the coast to defend the fortress in the image and likeness of the defense of Sevastopol. And this, of course, does not suit the governor at all. Therefore, in the response telegram, he writes V.K. Witgeftu:

“June 22 telegram number 52 received. Your opinion about the existence of only two solutions for the squadron - to defend Arthur, or to die together with the fortress - is so inconsistent with the HIGHEST instructions and purpose of the forces entrusted to you that I must offer the discussion of the council of flagships and captains to the issue of leaving and breaking through the squadron to Vladivostok , with the participation of the port commander ”(telegram No. 11 from 26 June 1904, received on 2 July 1904 squadron).


The meeting of commanders and flagships took place the day after the telegram of the governor, 4 July 1904, was received. A protocol was sent to the governor, according to which:

"There is no favorable and safe moment for the fleet to leave the sea ... ... A squadron cannot go to Vladivostok without a battle ... a squadron leaving Vladivostok can be justified only when all measures of Arthur’s defense from the fleet are exhausted and the fall of the fortress is inevitable ... contribute to the early fall of the fortress. "


When reading this report, it seems that it seems that neither the flagships, nor the commanders of the ships at sea wanted to go and preferred to disarm the ships for the defense of Arthur, but in reality this is not the case. The fact is that the signed “Opinions” of the flagships and captains of the 1 rank, who participated in the meeting, were attached to the “Protocol”, and there their opinions were concretized quite clearly:

Opinion of the chief of the battleship detachment (signed by Rear Admiral, Prince Ukhtomsky):

“I believe that our squadron should not leave Port Arthur for Vladivostok unless it is decided to surrender Port Arthur to the enemy in the general course of military events, not upholding it to the last possible opportunity. Near Port Arthur all the main naval forces of the Japanese, their army and their military transports are gathered, and therefore the place to our fleet is here, and not in the waters of the Sea of ​​Japan. ”


Opinion of the coastal defense chief (signed by Rear Admiral Loschinsky):

“The fleet, remaining in Port Arthur, greatly enhances the passive and active defense of the fortress; probably, in the future it will also be of great service to the passage of our main ground forces through Kinh-Zhou and past the city of Dalny, where our squadron can approach, gradually catching mines in front of it and, perhaps, in this place will give a general battle to the enemy. ”


Opinion of the Chief of the squadron of cruisers (signed by Rear Admiral Reizenstein):

“For the good of the cause, for the victory the fleet should not be left by Arthur. The real task of the fleet is to clear your way to the Far, which is done. Move along the coastal strip to the Far, take possession of it and stay there. Then not only Arthur was saved, but the Japanese from Kvantunga were ousted, and there was no move to Arthur either dry or sea, and our northern army could unite with Arthur unhindered. The fleet will leave, and the northern army will not come to Arthur, since there will be a barrier to the enemy fleet in Talenenwan. ”


Opinion of the commander of the squadron battleship "Tsarevich" (signed by the captain of the 1 rank Ivanov):

“If Port Arthur is not predetermined to surrender, then with the fleet in it he can successfully withstand the siege for another month, another; the question is in the number of reserves and combat supplies, and the fleet, acting perhaps more actively, may even significantly weaken the enemy squadron. ”


The opinion of the commander of the squadron battleship Retvizan (signed by the captain of the 1 rank Shensnovich):

“I anticipate another case of a squadron exit if our second squadron arrives in the waters of the Pacific. In this case, the squadron that left Arthur will give battle, and when the enemy squadron disappears into its ports for the inevitable repairs that are necessary after the battle at sea, the second squadron of the Pacific Ocean will remain and dominate the sea. ”


Opinion commander of the squadron battleship "Sevastopol" (signed by the captain of the 1-th rank von Essen):

“There is reason to think, however, that after the energetic actions of our cruising detachment in the Sea of ​​Japan, part of the enemy’s naval forces were recalled to the shores of Japan; There is a need to make sure of this by reconnoitring the output of our squadron into the sea with its full complement, for a while from one to the other high water. If at the same time it turns out that the enemy has significantly reduced the ships operating against Arthur, then our fleet can take some active actions, keeping the Japanese in a constant state of tension, and then leaving for Vladivostok is not necessary. ”




Opinion of the commander of the cruiser I rank "Pallada" (signed by the captain of 1-th rank Sarnavsky):

“My opinion is for the fleet to remain in Port Arthur until the last moment, and if the Lord God wants Port Arthur to be taken by the enemy, then our fleet will have to go out and break through, and how many ships of our fleet would come to Vladivostok, this will be our plus and our pride. Now, if the fleet leaves the besieged city, I even dread to think what a depressing impression it will have on the whole of Russia and on our ground forces.

Our fleet should now proceed to more active operations on enemy coastal positions, their shops, and so on. "


Opinion of the temporary head of the 1 squadron destroyers (signed by Lieutenant Maximov):

“I consider the withdrawal of a squadron from Arthur to leave for Vladivostok to be wrong and not caused by anything. I think that the withdrawal of a squadron for combat with the enemy is not subject to doubt. ”


Opinion of the temporary head of the II squadron destroyers (signed by Lieutenant Kuzmin-Karavaev):

“The squadron should try to break up the Japanese fleet located on the Kvantunsky Peninsula, but in my opinion, it should not go to Vladivostok.”



Armored cruiser "Diana" and two destroyers of the type "Falcon" at its side during duty, Port Arthur 1904 g.

Thus, slightly exaggerating, we see three points of view on further actions of the squadron:

1) The steward believed that with combat, without it, but the fleet must break through to Vladivostok.

2) V.K. Witgeft believed that it would be best for the fleet to abandon active actions and focus on protecting Port Arthur.

3) Flagships and squadron commanders assumed that it would be best to remain in Port Arthur to the last extreme, and in this their point of view coincided with the position of V.K. Witgefta. But, unlike the latter, many of them saw the fleet’s task not to bring cannons to shore and help the garrison to repel the attacks of the Japanese army, but to prevent its army from weakening the Japanese fleet by active actions of the squadron, or even to give him a general battle.

According to the author of this article, the only true was the opinion of the flagships and commanders of the squadron.

Unfortunately, a breakthrough to Vladivostok was absolutely impossible for the Russian squadron. And the point here is not at all that the United Fleet of Kheyhatiro Togo surpassed the Russian forces in Port Arthur in all respects. On the way to Vladivostok, battleships V.K. Witgefta was expected by a completely implacable enemy, his name is coal.

Lieutenant Cherkasov in his "Notes" wrote:

“... if at Sevastopol and Poltava there is enough coal in peacetime only to reach the shortest possible economic route from Arthur to Vladivostok, then they will not have enough reserve in a combat situation halfway through. Novik and the destroyers will have to load coal into the sea from the ships of the squadron ... ”


But who could give them this coal? According to the results of the 28 battle of July, we see a completely bleak result: the “Tsarevich” was not too damaged in the battle, his guns and machines were intact, the hull had no critical damage and flooding. From this point of view, nothing prevented the breakthrough of the battleship to Vladivostok. But in battle, the ship’s chimneys suffered: and if in its normal state, following a twelve-node course, the battleship spent 76 tons of coal per day, as a result of the battle, this figure increased to 600 (six hundred) tons.


The second chimney of the squadron battleship Tsesarevich after the battle of 28 July 1904 g

The “Tsarevich” project had a normal supply of coal - 800 t, full - 1350 t, on the sea 28 July came out, having 1100 t, since nobody wanted to overload the ship before the battle. After the 28 battle in July, the battleship had only 500 tons: this would not have been enough for Vladivostok, before entering the Korean Strait.

Approximately the same situation developed for the battleship Peresvet: it went into battle, having 1200-1500 and coal (the exact amount, unfortunately, is unknown), and this should be enough for 3000-3700 miles - the actual consumption of coal on ships This type reached 114 tons per day at a speed of 12 nodes. The distance from Port Arthur to Vladivostok through the Korean Strait was less than 1100 miles, so it would seem that the reserve is enough for the battleship. But in battle, two of his three smokestacks were badly damaged. And although the exact consumption of coal of the battleship in the 28 battle of July is unknown, there is evidence that Peresvet returned to Port Arthur with almost empty coal holes. And this means that it was impossible to even dream of any breakthrough to Vladivostok after the battle - the maximum that could be done was to bring the battleship to Qingdao and be interned there.

As V.K. Witgeft and the flagships, it was almost impossible to go to sea secretly from the observers of Heihatiro Togo - the squadron needed too much time to enter the outer raid and into the sea. And then the more high-speed Japanese fleet managed, in any case, to intercept the ships of the port-arthur squadron. Accordingly, the Russian battleships could not evade battle, but in battle it was impossible to avoid damage. In this case, the two oldest battleships obviously could not get to Vladivostok. Even without having received combat damage (which is obviously fantastic), they would still have to maneuver intensively and move at higher than economic speeds, respectively, they would quickly squander coal. In fact, the only possible way to use them was that Sevastopol and Poltava, going out with the fleet, helped him in a battle with the Japanese, and then returned to Port Arthur or interned in the same Qingdao. So it was possible to try to ensure the breakthrough of four battleships out of six, but if at least one of these four were damaged by pipes, then, just like Sevastopol and Poltava, it would not be able to follow to Vladivostok. And in the end, only half of the squadron, or even less, will break through.

And will it break through? Evaluating the consequences of the 28 battle of July 1904, many authors point out that the Russians had almost broken through, and that they had only a little more time to hold out before dark, and then look for the wind in the field! But this is not the case at all. Having survived the battle with the Russian squadron, the Japanese could easily head for the Korean Strait, even if only part of their squadron — if the Russians succeed in knocking out some Japanese battleships and armored cruisers. And already there, having connected with four armored cruisers of Kamimura, Heyhatiro Togo could give a second battle to the remnants of the Russian squadron. Chances to slip unnoticed by the Korean Strait, past all observation posts and numerous auxiliary ships of V.K. Witgefta practically was not. And even if such a miracle happened, nothing prevented the Japanese from advancing to Vladivostok and intercepting the Russian squadron already on the outskirts of the city.

The problem of the Port Arthur squadron was that after the battle with the Japanese fleet and regardless of its outcome, some of the ships should either return to Arthur or be interned, and only a part of the breakthrough ships could get to Vladivostok, and most likely - part insignificant. But Japanese ships damaged by Russian fire in the course of a breakthrough will be repaired and put back into service. But the Russians are not: those that return to Arthur will die, those that are interned will be saved, but they will not be able to continue the war. Accordingly, it made sense to break through only if the question of the life and death of the Arthur squadron arose, but the situation in June and the beginning of July of 1904 did not look like that at all.

But to act actively from Port Arthur ... it was a very tempting option, because in this case a lot started to play against the Japanese. Squadron Kheykhatiro Togo was tied to the landing sites, she covered the transports that supplied the army. But there were no Japanese bases there, all the Japanese had with them were the floating workshops, and in the event of receiving any serious damage, they had to go to Japan for repairs. At the same time, although Port Arthur, as the base of the fleet, was not able to compete with the Japanese naval bases, it could very quickly repair the damage of moderate gravity from artillery fire. The problem was the lack of a dock for battleships, but underwater damage in an artillery battle was not so frequent, and far less devastating than the same blasting on a mine.

And because the squadron did not need to leave Port Arthur, it was necessary to conduct active hostilities, hoping to impose battle on the part of the Japanese fleet. But even if it had not been possible, it was quite possible to take the risk and give the general battle of Heyhatiro Togo not far from Port Arthur, when it was possible for the wounded ships to retreat under the protection of the fortress. A badly beaten "Japanese" had to go to Japan, and even accompanied by other warships, be repaired there and waste time returning back - a similarly damaged Russian battleship had good chances to return to service faster.

And besides, on the squadron, not knowing the condition of the preparation of the 2 Pacific Pacific Squadron, seriously admitted that it could come up in a few months and there was already a different reason to go out to sea - to fight the Japanese, tie up their fleet with combat even if the losses of the port-arthur squadron turn out to be higher, but they will not be meaningless, but will pave the way for ships coming from the Baltic.

The moods of the flagships and kaprangs of the Arthur squadron were fully explained by the above reasons: they had been in the Port Arthur fortress for a long time, they understood that when they tried to break through, the squadron would, with an enormous degree of probability, cease to exist as an organized fighting force without causing significant damage to the Japanese fleet, her departure will bring the fall of Port Arthur closer. So why go? What could a squadron from Vladivostok do that it was not able to do, based in Port Arthur? Rear Admiral Ukhtomsky did not prove himself a great naval commander, but the words he spoke at the Assembly of flagships sounded as if Fyodor Fyodorovich Ushakov or Horatio Nelson suddenly spoke through his mouth:

"Near Port Arthur all the major naval forces of the Japanese, their army and their military transports are gathered, and therefore the place to our fleet is here."


In Russian historiography, it was somehow gradually forming the view that the constant demands of the viceroy Alekseev about the breakthrough of the squadron to Vladivostok were in essence the only true ones, and that only indecision (if not to say faint-heartedness) was temporarily. The commander of the Pacific Ocean squadron V.K. Witgefta prevented their early implementation. But if we put ourselves in the place of the flagships and impartially consider the capabilities of the 1 Pacific squadron: without post-knowledge, but as Arthur sailors saw in 1904 in June and early July, the desire of the governor to quickly take her ships to Vladivostok is premature and dictated by the eternal "to take care and not to risk", as well as the fact that the governor, in spite of his admiral's rank, very badly imagined the consequences of such a breakthrough.

Unfortunately, one should not see a strategic genius in the attempts of V.K. Witgefta delay a squadron in Port Arthur. This delay made sense only under the condition of active hostilities against the enemy at sea, and this VK. Witgeft did not want at all, preferring to stand at anchor and only sending detachments of ships to support the land flanks. The case is important and very useful, but not sufficient for the squadron.

The views of a number of flagships and ship commanders, alas, remained unheard: the squadron again froze in the internal pool of Port Arthur until the squadron battleship Sevastopol was repaired. And there everything turned out to be the same: on July 25 the battleship was commissioned, and on the same day, the ships in the internal raid found themselves under fire from siege 120-mm howitzers. The next day, Wilhelm Karlovich Vitgeft received a telegram from the governor:

"On July 4, the protocol of the meeting of flagships and captains HIS IMPERIAL majesty deigned with the following answer" I fully share your opinion about the importance of getting the squadron out of Arthur as soon as possible and breaking through to Vladivostok. "

On this basis, I confirm to you for the exact execution of the order set forth in my dispatch number seven. Report on receipt ”(telegram No. 25 from 21 June 1904, received on 26 July 1904 squadron).
.

Two days later, 28 July 1904, the squadron, led by the squadron battleship "Tsarevich", which held its flag V.K. Witgeft, entered the breakthrough in Vladivostok.

To be continued ...
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  1. +6
    28 September 2016 15: 26
    Another interpretation of events ... well, why not. It’s always like this with us, Makarov, the great naval commander, sometimes out of stupidity, set up ships under Japanese mines and he himself died. The same song about Witgeft. The only thing is not clear why the king of Rozhestvensky embraced, after he ruined the whole imperial fleet, and why didn’t he shoot himself after such a shame, as befits a real officer?
    1. +5
      28 September 2016 15: 37
      Quote: Engineer
      The only thing is not clear why the king of Rozhestvensky hugged, after he ruined, consider the entire imperial fleet

      Maybe because he did not ruin him, but finding himself in a deliberately losing situation, nevertheless did everything that depended on him? :)
      1. +1
        28 September 2016 15: 41
        Oh, if that were all ... In fact, he showed himself as an organizer of Christmas. But unfortunately there is no naval commander.
        1. +3
          28 September 2016 16: 13
          Quote: Nehist
          But unfortunately there is no naval commander.

          Can I clarify what exactly you are unhappy with as Rozhdestvensky’s actions as naval commander? :)
          1. +2
            28 September 2016 16: 56
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Can I clarify what exactly you are unhappy with as Rozhdestvensky’s actions as naval commander? :)

            Probably because Rozhdestvensky did not win winked After all, everyone thought that there was experience of the same battle in the Yellow Sea, which suggested that there was a high probability of standing before the Japanese and breaking through with minimal losses, everyone thought that 4 new battleships were worth something. But in the end everything turned out to be like Primakov's "We wanted the best, it turned out as always".
            But then it came to pass that at 9 knots you won’t break through, that you won’t get a lot of ships stuffed to the eyeballs, that you need at least some tactical ingenuity and maneuvers, so as not to stupidly go at least. But then again - this is history request
            1. +1
              28 September 2016 17: 20
              Quote: Rurikovich
              But then it came to pass that at 9 knots you won’t break through, that you won’t get a lot of ships stuffed to the eyeballs, that you need at least some tactical ingenuity and maneuvers, so as not to stupidly go at least.

              Quite right, it came right after the fall of Arthur, and only Nebogatov from all the flagships tried to offer at least some kind of action, unfortunately he was simply ignored, perhaps in that case the defeat would not have been so devastating.
              1. 0
                28 September 2016 21: 17
                Nebogatov not only tried to do something, but also did it.
                For starters, joining a radio game helped the Japanese find a Russian squadron.
                Then, the malfunction of one of their ships forced to change the time of passage of the strait. And, finally, in battle, at 9 knot speed, I managed to lag behind as much as 38 cables. Where can we shoot at Togo? True, we had to fight off the "miracle cruisers". It's a shame, we help them, and they help us ... The spool is small, but expensive, the crews are floated, the artillerymen are prize money, the shells are good. So, inadvertently, one of the "miracle cruisers" and disabled. Probably, I really wanted to apologize. But it turned out better. He surrendered himself, and the ships handed over. Here he is, a traitorous hero.
                1. +2
                  28 September 2016 21: 55
                  You have an interesting opinion! What would you do if you were in his place? With a heroic cry of cheers to attack the entire fleet? It’s not a pity for yourself, so more than 5000 people take pity on which 2/3 of the wounded and survived the death of their ships! Yes, they sent you! For there is a chapel to heroism. As one commander said, Heroism of some has to pay for the stupidity of others hi
              2. 0
                28 September 2016 22: 08
                Quote: Nehist
                and only Nebogatov from all the flagships tried to offer at least some actions

                It would be better if he would bother to train his commanders - shooting his squad against the background of the prize-winning shooting of the head EBR Rozhestvensky is just some kind of horror. Yes, his Nikolai, perhaps, became the most productive ship of the Russian squadron, but this was not due to a high% of hits, but to the good places where the shells hit and, probably, the quality of the shells themselves.
                1. 0
                  28 September 2016 22: 22
                  Well, you yourself said! The point is speed! And his squad and the speed and range was the worst. Here is how Rozhestvensky in his memoirs is silent with what plan on the eve Nebogatov came to him. Tsushima is generally much mysterious with her fatalism, against the background of the 2TOE mess, sheer luck. And the wildest fortune of Yaif
            2. +3
              28 September 2016 21: 39
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Probably because Rozhdestvensky did not win

              It was hard to do - being seriously wounded in the head about 50 minutes after the start of the battle.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              everyone thought that 4 new battleships were at least worth something.

              As it turned out, they cost a lot - it's hard to say who their contemporaries could hold on to by raking so many hits.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              But in the end everything turned out to be like Primakov's "We wanted the best, it turned out as always".

              I'm sorry, but this is a phrase Chernomyrdin
              Quote: Rurikovich
              But then it dawned that you couldn’t break through at 9 knots

              at 11 - too, but could not give a large squadron speed
              Quote: Rurikovich
              that with ships stuffed to the eyeballs you won’t get much

              So no one stuffed them to the eyeballs, the coal reserves before the battle were small. Or are you talking about building overload?
              Quote: Rurikovich
              that you need at least some tactical ingenuity and maneuvers

              When your opponent is almost one and a half times faster than you, you won’t especially maneuver. Rozhdestvensky, by the way, succeeded - the loop of Togo was done by Togo, and not by the Russians :))
              Quote: Rurikovich
              But then again - this is history

              Yes.
              1. 0
                28 September 2016 22: 42
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                So no one stuffed them to the eyeballs, the coal reserves before the battle were small. Or are you talking about building overload?

                Alas, overload, both construction and any, is the scourge of domestic shipbuilders. So here it is not important.
                1. +1
                  28 September 2016 23: 17
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  Alas, overload, both construction and any, is the scourge of domestic shipbuilders.

                  This scourge is called incompetence. Total.
                  Designers could not do the right calculations.
                  Shipbuilders, build exactly on projects.
                  Gunners accurately shoot.
                  Mechanics, service mechanisms.
                  Etc. Etc.
                  All together, this gave the result that is known. Both on water and on land.
                  1. 0
                    28 September 2016 23: 24
                    Quote: rjxtufh
                    This scourge is called incompetence. Total.

                    No. This is called the lack of construction discipline. Especially if there are dozens of contractors working on the ship building who take liberties in the production of various parts and assemblies under the pretext of saving wink At least, such a situation was observed everywhere in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I read somewhere that during the protracted completion of the Black Sea "Eustaths", the contagents received such quality punishments and had such fines that overloading during commissioning was avoided. But it was too late. RYAV has already been lost ... request
                    1. 0
                      28 September 2016 23: 44
                      Quote: Rurikovich
                      At least, such a situation was observed everywhere in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

                      Do not exaggerate.
                      Quote: Rurikovich
                      I read somewhere that during the protracted completion of the Black Sea "Eustaths", the contagents received such punishments for quality and had such fines that overloading during commissioning was avoided.

                      Do not read if only that.
                      1. +3
                        29 September 2016 08: 36
                        Quote: rjxtufh
                        Do not exaggerate

                        I'm not exaggerating request Just as you don’t look at the state of a large ship during commissioning, you’ll definitely find overload
                        Quote: rjxtufh
                        Do not read if only that.

                        And what, read only that which should confirm certain conclusions? Or read only what they indicate? But what about the objectivity of opinion, for which you need to consider all possible options for presentation? wink
                      2. 0
                        29 September 2016 10: 13
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        Just as you don’t look at the state of a large ship during commissioning, you’ll definitely find overload

                        Not necessary. It depended on each particular shipyard. First-class shipyards with quality projects and construction were OK. A penny in a penny.
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        But what about the objectivity of opinion, for which you need to consider all possible options for presentation?

                        Apparently it is necessary to clarify, "read carefully." Especially Soviet authors in terms of conclusions. Their "works" were approved in agitprop. And this, quite often, negatively affected the quality of the material.
              2. 0
                28 September 2016 23: 12
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                So no one stuffed them to the eyeballs, the coal reserves before the battle were small. Or are you talking about building overload?

                And how can overload (and why construction, and not design, for example?), And any, be ignored? Water doesn't care why the ship weighs more than it should.
                Therefore, coal reserves before Tsushima were large. Very great. So much so that the 2TOE ships still on the way to it were doomed.
                1. 0
                  28 September 2016 23: 32
                  Quote: rjxtufh
                  And how can overload (and why construction, and not design, for example?), And any, be ignored? Water doesn't care why the ship weighs more than it should.

                  There is such a bunch of nuances that overlap one on one winked The overload arising during construction due to changes in the design and retrofitting of the ship can be compensated for by a decrease in fuel reserves, which reduces such an important characteristic as the cruising range. Or by reducing the armament, as they did on the Diana type trinity, which is why these ships had very weak armament for their almost seven thousand tons. So here's how you guess request
                2. 0
                  29 September 2016 12: 45
                  Overloads were both construction and design, and most importantly operational !! Moreover, in all the fleets of the world, the latter are especially common that even special circulars were issued for this! The ships of the 2 TOE were not doomed without a trace, the point here was not even the overload which, according to some documents, was not present. And the fact that the RIF with the fatality of the doomed went to slaughter in one course, performing languid maneuvers in the hope of breaking through to everyone. The fact that it was absurdly understood by all officers of the squadron, but here is something that no one did what in order to avoid this
              3. +1
                28 September 2016 23: 14
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It was hard to do - being seriously wounded in the head about 50 minutes after the start of the battle.

                Well, I was not talking about my opinion wink

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                As it turned out, they cost a lot - it's hard to say who their contemporaries could hold on to by raking so many hits.

                Although you argued in your articles (in the cycle about the myths of Tsushima) that Japanese shells had a much greater destructive power, they were still high-explosive shells. Personally, my opinion is that only the notorious concentration of fire on the head destroyed our ships. As a result, in a minute, the ship received what others did not receive. If there was even a remote semblance of a battle in the Yellow Sea, the result could have been different. But again, the notorious "if only" ...
                Togo simply had no right not to take advantage of his squadron superiority in speed and he skimmed the cream to the maximum. So the question of the stability of other ships before such fire remains open due to the lack of comparable battles in the period under review at the beginning of the 20th century smile
          2. +1
            28 September 2016 17: 26
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Nehist
            But unfortunately there is no naval commander.

            Can I clarify what exactly you are unhappy with as Rozhdestvensky’s actions as naval commander? :)

            Passivity in battle. You quite convincingly proved that he expected to break through without maneuvering. But without doing anything and giving all the initiative to the enemy, the battles do not win. What he brilliantly proved.
            1. +4
              28 September 2016 17: 30
              I have a feeling that no one has read the analysis of Tsushima from the Author. There he convincingly shows that ... I do not want to retell everything. Who wants to find.
              1. 0
                28 September 2016 18: 07
                They read and debated ... The fact that the 2TO victory over the Mikado fleet couldn’t be obvious! But the breakthrough of part of the ships in Vladivostok with damage to the enemy was possible.
              2. +3
                28 September 2016 21: 42
                Thank you :))) Alas, the generally accepted view on Tsushima cannot be uprooted by a couple of articles crying
            2. +1
              28 September 2016 21: 41
              Quote: MooH
              Passivity in battle.

              Before his injury, he acted quite adequately. And after he was wounded, the attack of "Alexander III" somehow also does not produce a feeling of passivity.
              1. +2
                28 September 2016 22: 58
                I don’t dare to argue with you, the weight category is not the same :) I fully admit that I am carrying garbage to the masses, but I read somewhere, like Melnikov’s, and it stuck in my memory that only one command was given to Rozhestvensky for the whole fight about this Contents: "go straight to Vladivostok, shoot at Mikasa" further formidable silence before the injury and mournful after. In addition, as far as I know, the plan of the upcoming battle and tactical schemes, even if they were drawn up, were not communicated to the subordinates. I know little about the tactics of naval combat, but at the same time I think that any unit with such a level of command and assignment of a mission to defeat is doomed.
            3. 0
              29 September 2016 23: 11
              Quote: Nehist
              here it’s not even a matter of overloading which according to some documents was but not according to others.

              Regarding the fact that there were no overloads, I did not meet any documents.
              Quote: Nehist
              And the fact that the reef with the fatality of the doomed went to the slaughter in one course, making sluggish maneuvers

              And how else could you go with a set of floating rubbish, which were 2 and 3TOE?
              I recall, they were met by 3 first-class EDBs and one old first-class EDB. And besides this, ships 2 and 3TE were overloaded beyond measure. Those. they had no chance. Even theoretical. They really were slaughtering.
      2. 0
        30 September 2016 10: 21
        Let's remember the brothers in private and collective, the heroes of the battle from the battleship "Poltava":
        Midshipman de Livron 5th Boris,
        sergeant-sergeant Kirin Petr Fedorovich,
        quartermaster quartermaster Mikhail Mogaev,
        comendors - Belitsky Andrey Olegovich, Korneichuk Kiprian Timofeevich, Utkin Mikhail Egorovich,
        Senior Minister Lopatin Mikhail Yakovlevich,
        Miner Maltsev Gregory,
        drummer Antipov Gleb Egorovich,
        Bugler Olenin Panteleimon,
        sailors 1 tbsp. - Baranov Wojciech, Boyankin Alexander Ivanovich, Miloslavsky Alexander Nikolaevich,
        sailor 2 tbsp. Dyatlov Ivan Ivanovich,
        stokers 1 tbsp. - Alexander Alexandrov, Rushtsev Vasily Petrovich,
  2. +2
    28 September 2016 16: 37
    According to the results of the July 28 battle, we see a completely bleak result: the “Cesarevich” was not too damaged in the battle, his guns and machines were in good condition, the hull did not have critical damage and flooding. From this point of view, nothing prevented the breakthrough of the battleship in Vladivostok. But the chimneys of the ship suffered in the battle: and if in the normal state, following the twelve-node move, the battleship spent 76 tons of coal per day, then as a result of the battle this figure increased to 600 (six hundred) tons.

    He-he-he ... "Tsesarevich" is another good example of the fact that after a battle the EBR can have big problems even in the absence of serious defeats of the HHC. A couple of hits in the mast - and that's it, we urgently need to run to the nearest port, until this whopper collapses, ripping apart the entire side (or even knocking out one of the SC BSh).
    This hit us for a long time to echo - even before "Andrew the First-Called" flew. smile
    1. +2
      28 September 2016 17: 03
      Quote: Alexey RA
      even to "Andrew the First-Called" flew. smile

      Yes, the whole RYAV backfired on the minds of everyone. That is why both "Andrew the First-Called" and "Rurik" II appeared, and the same "Sevastopoli", which have a huge reservation area (well, the fact that the "skin" is too thin is a topic for another conversation) winked
    2. +1
      28 September 2016 21: 43
      Quote: Alexey RA
      He-he-he ... "Tsarevich" is another good example of the fact that after a battle the EBR can have big problems even in the absence of serious defeats of the HHC

      good That's right. In general, as Comrade Kozma, who is Prutkov, used to say, to see the treb at the root :)
  3. avt
    +3
    28 September 2016 16: 37
    The moods of the flagships and caperans of the Arthur squadron were fully explained by the above reasons: they were in the Port Arthur fortress for a long time, they understood that when they attempted to break through the squadron, they would most likely cease to exist as an organized fighting force, without causing significant damage to the Japanese naval fleet, but her departure will bring the fall of Port Arthur closer.
    request Everyone perfectly understood the complete absence of a hard-willed strong-willed hand meaningfully directing the squadron as the ONE combat unit. But coal had nothing to do with it. Someone ran up to Saigon. Here and sculpted excuses
    "Near Port Arthur all the major naval forces of the Japanese, their army and their military transports are gathered, and therefore the place to our fleet is here."
    Eventually
    “If Port Arthur is not predetermined to surrender, then with the fleet in it he can successfully withstand the siege for another month, another; the question is in the number of reserves and combat supplies, and the fleet, acting perhaps more actively, may even significantly weaken the enemy squadron. ”
    and Arthur surrendered and drowned the squadron, so much so that the Japanese got most of it. Then the truth was written that de in such a manner - lifting and repairing trophies terribly ravaged the budget of the Japanese and distracted them from shipbuilding. wassat
    . And there everything turned out to be the same: on July 25, an armadillo went into operation and on the same day the ships in the internal roadstead were under the fire of siege 120-mm howitzers.
    what Exactly 120mm ?? Maybe all the same somewhere in 11 "? Or smaller -210mm? And so in general - good return dear to the monograph, dear comrade. bully hi
    1. +2
      28 September 2016 17: 08
      Quote: avt
      Everyone perfectly understood the complete absence of a hard-willed strong-willed hand meaningfully directing the squadron as the ONE combat unit. But coal had nothing to do with it. Someone ran up to Saigon. Here and sculpted excuses

      I agree. In something...
      Quote: avt
      Exactly 120mm ?? Maybe all the same somewhere at 11 "? Or smaller -210mm? And so in general - good return the road to the monograph you go dear friend.

      In the beginning they were 120mm, then they already waited for the Krupp's 280-mm mortar request By the way, for starters, one hundred and twenty was perfectly enough to kill morale from helplessness, to destroy not armored superstructures, but such destroyers are deadly for destroyers wink The point is not the caliber, but the fact itself ... wink
    2. +3
      28 September 2016 18: 16
      Quote: avt
      Exactly 120mm ?? Maybe all the same somewhere at 11 "? Or smaller -210mm?

      The first shelling of the harbor began exactly 120 mm guns. 280-mm shore pulled up later.
      On July 25, the Japanese army began shelling Port Arthur’s inner harbor with 120-mm guns. Although the firing so far was carried out without adjustment, in squares, Russian ships in the harbor began to receive hits (the battleship Tsesarevich was the first to be injured). Several sailors were killed and wounded, Rear Admiral Witgeft himself was slightly injured.

      On the morning of July 27, a barge with two six-inch and four three-inch “Bayan” cannons moored aboard the Retvisan, which was urgently to be mounted on an armadillo. But at 7.55 another shelling of the harbor from the coast began. “Retvizan”, “Peresvet” and “Victory” tried to answer from all the heavy guns, but they could not “find” the location of the enemy battery. The Japanese fire was very accurate. The barge, standing at the side of the Retvisan, sank with two 152 mm guns as a result of a direct hit. The armadillo itself hit seven 120-mm shells. The most unpleasant thing was getting into the port side near the 12.10th frame received at 26: a shell dived into the water and exploded under an armored belt, making a hole with an area of ​​about 2,1 m2. The ship received 400 tons of water, which flooded five compartments and caused a roll of 1 °. In addition, the first chimney was broken, one 75-mm gun was damaged. The fragments of a shell that exploded on the roof of the bow tower easily injured E.N. Schensnovich.

      In total, 15 people were injured on the battleship, including the senior officer, Lieutenant Skorokhodov, who was poisoned by powder gases; one driver died on a nearby floating crane.

      The embedment began at 18.00, immediately after the cessation of the bombing. The longitudinal bulkheads were supported by bars, steel struts were installed on the inside. Outside, an iron sheet was placed on the hole, but it was small and relied on the lining only with corners. By morning the work was completed, but there was no talk of any tightness. In the compartments adjacent to the damaged area, 250 tons of water remained; the same number were taken into the starboard compartments to level the roll. “With such an unusable plug, the battleship was in battle on the 28th,” - said the commander of the Retvisana in his memoirs.
    3. +1
      28 September 2016 21: 49
      Quote: avt
      Everyone perfectly understood the complete absence of a hard-willed strong-willed hand meaningfully directing the squadron as the ONE combat unit. But coal had nothing to do with it. Someone ran up to Saigon. Here and sculpted excuses

      Excuses are not sculpted, why? And it’s not an armadillo who came to Saigon
      Quote: avt
      and Arthur surrendered and drowned the squadron, so much so that the Japanese got most of it.

      We get to this. And in any case, the commanders here could change little.
      Quote: avt
      Exactly 120mm?

      Absolutely. "Retvizan" got its hole right out of this
      1. avt
        0
        29 September 2016 09: 07
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Excuses are not sculpted, why?
        Like, and so in the harbor stood on the orders of the senior military commander? Well, something like that. However, the worm then nibbled on our souls - we stand, we did nothing, and the land mocked in taverns.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And in any case, the commanders here could change little.

        Well, in terms of leaving, yes, but at least they would have found a deeper place.
        1. +1
          29 September 2016 09: 49
          Quote: avt
          Well, in terms of leaving, yes, but at least they would have found a deeper place.

          Well Essen subsequently very successfully commanded the Baltic Fleet. He was smart enough to flood the Sevastopol at a depth wink winked
          1. +1
            29 September 2016 10: 24
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Well, Essen subsequently very successfully commanded the Baltic Fleet.

            Successfully, when? When a daring raid was drowned by a German coal miner?
            There were no successful admirals (except for Vitgeft, but it was a one-time surge, one operation) and ship commanders in the RIF in the 20th century. That's right from the word "none". They were all rather gray mediocrity. The empire gradually degraded towards its end. The quality of its guiding "human material" also degraded.
            These are interconnected processes, in fact. From this is the history of the 20th century RIF, the history of continuous disasters and defeats. As a special case of the history of RI. Army (land), as another special case, this also concerned.
            1. +2
              29 September 2016 17: 41
              Quote: rjxtufh
              Successfully, when? When a daring raid was drowned by a German coal miner?

              And that success is confirmed only by sunken ships? what Improvement of combat training, the construction of ships for the needs of the fleet, the creation of coastal batteries, mine positions, the establishment of clear organization and service in ports, arsenals, the organization of crew training, the organization of mobilization resources, and the establishment of intelligence in the interests of the Fleet does not count? Is everything organized? Yeah, I would not want to serve under your command ... wink lol
              Do you even know cause-effect relationships? belay
            2. 0
              29 September 2016 23: 13
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Improvement of combat training, the construction of ships for the needs of the fleet, the creation of coastal batteries, mine positions, the establishment of clear organization and service in ports, arsenals, the organization of crew training, the organization of mobilization resources, and the establishment of intelligence in the interests of the Fleet does not count?

              Did the commander of the Baltic Fleet do this? Are they too wide for you?
  4. +5
    28 September 2016 16: 49
    A plus. The author in today's article gave the alignment of opinions before the fight. Everyone, in this case, is right from his own bell tower. The governor gave "pleasure" to command the devil knows where, and even to command so that he himself would be a winner in any outcome. Talent .... But the other two options are interesting. Vitgeft directly and honestly said that his naval commander was useless, for which respect. He just expressed his vision of the problems he got into. The opinion of the ship commanders is interesting because they were mostly in favor of making ships what they were created for - to fight. But Andrei for some reason did not express the position of the Japanese, who had their own opinion - to destroy the fleet base together with the fleet. Therefore, the first "swallows" from siege howitzers expressed their opinion more reasoned. Defend the army at least the position at Qingzhou, if it made Arthur's defense perimeter reliable, if the generals saw what the loss of a number of ground positions would turn out to be and hold on to them, the opinion of the flagships would still make sense. And so the army on its own, the fleet on its own ... Therefore, the battle on July 28 in the Yellow Sea is more likely a consequence of the weakness of the army as a whole. Therefore, Arthur, as the base of the fleet, with the capture of Mount Vysokaya, with the appearance of 280-mm siege guns, ceases to exist. And it doesn't matter if Vitgeft wanted to stay in Arthur, whether Alekseev wanted to withdraw the fleet to Vladivostok, it doesn't matter if all or in parts came, it doesn't matter what the opinion of the junior flagships with their desire to exhaust the Japanese from Arthur - the opinion of the Japanese army turned out to be more significant. The army made it impossible for the fleet to be in Port Arthur. Everyone understood this when the first shells of siege artillery fell on the decks of ships. And the moral is that if you knew where you would fall, you would spread a straw. So even that minuscule time in which it was possible to tighten up combat training, to make at least several exits to the sea (not one, but several) to raise the confidence of the crews, to swim more or less, to shoot a little - NOTHING WAS DONE request
    Then, thanks to confidence, it would be possible to inflict at least unacceptable damage to the enemy, but ... history does not know the subjunctive mood.
    So the author again plus for the alignment of opinions before the battle and we are waiting for the most delicious - the very description of the battle from the point of view of Andrei hi
    1. +2
      28 September 2016 21: 57
      Quote: Rurikovich
      The opinion of the commanders of the ships is interesting in that for the most part they were for making ships what they were created for - to fight.

      Yes. And now, in many respects, quite the opposite impression develops.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      But Andrey for some reason did not express the position of the Japanese, who had their own opinion - to destroy the fleet base together with the fleet. Therefore, the first "swallows" from siege howitzers expressed their opinion more reasoned.

      Of course, at the moment when the siege weapons of the Japanese began to cover the ships, the very edge was approaching, when it was necessary to go to the sea in any case.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And it doesn’t matter if Witgeft wanted to stay in Arthur, if Alekseev wanted to withdraw the fleet to Vladivostok, it doesn’t matter if all or in part would have reached, it doesn’t matter the opinion of the younger flagships with their desire to exhaust the Japanese from Arthur - the opinion of the Japanese army turned out to be more significant.

      Important. Because the active actions of Wittgeft could, if not cancel the siege of Arthur, then seriously limit the Japanese in terms of delivered goods. As you yourself write, the fleet and army were very interconnected, although few wanted to understand this.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      So even that minuscule time in which it was possible to tighten up combat training, make at least several exits to the sea (not one but several), to increase the confidence of the crews, more or less to swim, to shoot a little, - THERE WAS NOTHING DONE

      Thanks to comrade Wilhelm Karlovich for our happy childhood ...
      Quote: Rurikovich
      So the author again plus for the alignment of opinions before the battle and we are waiting for the most delicious - the very description of the battle from the point of view of Andrei

      I'm getting started, getting started :))) drinks
      1. +1
        28 September 2016 22: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Important. Because the active actions of Wittgeft could, if not cancel the siege of Arthur, then seriously limit the Japanese in terms of delivered goods. As you yourself write, the fleet and army were very interconnected, although few wanted to understand this.

        The opinion of the Japanese army was more significant than the opinion of the Russian wink It was more important for them to fulfill their task than the Russians - their own. Alas, it’s not sad to admit it, but Arthur’s fate was decided on land. Sailors could have brought a lot of benefits through their actions to help the army achieve their goals, but ... inaction and its accompanying epithets have already become the same story. Therefore, shells of the Japanese army fell on the decks of Russian ships, serving as the beginning of the end .... crying
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thanks to comrade Wilhelm Karlovich for our happy childhood ...

        So he's a staff officer request what to take from him winked
        Although he was almost the key character in the drama of the 1st Pacific Squadron at the height of the tragedy ...
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I'm getting started, getting started :))) drinks

        We are waiting drinks
        1. 0
          28 September 2016 23: 23
          Quote: Rurikovich
          So he’s a staff officer request what to take from him winked

          The second "from Chelyabinsk" was drawn.
          I asked the first question there. Read, do not disdain. And answer if you can.
          1. +3
            29 September 2016 08: 44
            Quote: rjxtufh
            The second "from Chelyabinsk" was drawn.
            I asked the first question there. Read, do not disdain. And answer if you can.

            Respected. the fact that you have your own point of view does not mean that others cannot have theirs. If Vitgeft, in his reports to the same Alekseev, SAYS THAT THE FLEET CONTROLLER IS NON-KINDY, then your opinion about his greatness and infallibility only on the basis of the fact that during his "command" two Japanese battleships were killed raises many questions. belay The author drew his conclusions not on idle speculation, but on the basis of documents, and his point of view is personally preferable for me to yours. Moreover, you need to criticize wisely, reasoned, and not shout that everyone is bad, and you alone are smart. Otherwise, you become like today's "exceptional" who blame the whole world for all sins, being the biggest aggressor and liar wink
            1. 0
              29 September 2016 10: 42
              Quote: Rurikovich
              If Witgeft himself says in his reports to the same Alekseev, that the naval commander is useless

              Self-esteem does not mean anything. It may be overpriced, or may be underestimated.
              For example, Rozhestvensky and Makarov, judging by the materials read, considered themselves brilliant. And what is the result? Complete failure. So what Wittgeft thought of himself there does not matter.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              only on the basis that during his "command" two Japanese battleships were killed

              Those. died from the typhoon? Or from meteorites?
              No, they died as a result of a carefully designed and conducted mine operation. Moreover, it is colossally risky. The "super-genius Makarov" (the image was later drawn by Sovagitprop in connection with the "low" origin of the latter) did not carry out exactly the same operation. Although he had all the means for this. Either he didn’t dare, or he didn’t even think of it. And the "indecisive Witgeft", casting aside the canons that fettered him, carried it out. And with a brilliant result.
              I repeat, name me the second such Russian "indecisive naval commander" of the 20th century?
              Quote: Rurikovich
              The author made his conclusions on the basis of not idle speculation

              It is on the basis of these same conjectures. Out of my head. By free interpretation of these same documents.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              and his point of view is personally preferable to me personally

              I'm crying. The facts are nothing to you. This is an original approach to the study of history.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Moreover, you need to criticize wisely, reasonably, and not shout that everyone is bad, and you are one smart.

              Am I already a naval commander? You flatter me.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Otherwise, you become like today's "exceptional" who blame the whole world for all sins, being the biggest aggressor and liar

              On the Bolsheviks? Chur me, chur.
              1. +2
                29 September 2016 13: 13
                Quote: rjxtufh
                Self-esteem does not mean anything. It may be overpriced, or may be underestimated.
                Vitgeft, in his business correspondence to a higher superior, characterizes himself as a temporary commander, not ready for an active war at sea. IN BUSINESS OFFICIAL CORRESPONDENCE. If he was shy when communicating with young ladies, or when writing an autobiography. And official correspondence is laconic and to the point, only the most serious and significant issues can find a place there. Moreover, it is possible to inform a superior boss about one's own weakness only with a hint of a desire to leave the occupied post. Witgeft could hardly have found other reasons for lyrical revelations about his own talents. So, in this case, the assessment should be considered balanced and cool. Moreover, this has been done repeatedly. And in general, between the lines reads at Witgeft the agonizing "God, when this all finally ends, let me go or kill me already."

                And by the way, Vitgeft characterizes Makarov positively.
            2. 0
              29 September 2016 23: 17
              Quote: Alex_59
              Witgeft, in business correspondence with his superior, describes himself as a temporary commander, not ready for an active war at sea. IN BUSINESS OFFICIAL CORRESPONDENCE.

              In Soviet times, when appointing a candidate to a nomenclature position, they called for an interview with the Central Committee. The candidate was obliged to refuse, citing a lack of readiness to perform duties. That was the ritual.
              If the candidate did not refuse, they might not have been appointed. Because it was considered immodest.
              Here is about the same picture seen with Witgeft.
              Quote: Alex_59
              And in general, between the lines reads at Witgeft a painful "God, when this all finally ends, let go or kill me already."

              You have a rich imagination.
      2. 0
        29 September 2016 09: 31
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I'm getting started, getting started :)))

        waiting, really waiting)))
        and I also remember how you promised to give your assessment to the Borodino project ;-)
        1. 0
          29 September 2016 10: 54
          Quote: Trapper7
          and I also remember how you promised to give your assessment to the Borodino project ;-)

          Will give an assessment? I’ll wait for this too. It will be interesting to read about this in a person who does not understand the structure of the Navy of the early 20th century.
          1. 0
            30 September 2016 04: 02
            Quote: rjxtufh
            Will give an assessment? I’ll wait for this too. It will be interesting to read about this in a man who does not understand the structure of the Navy of the beginning of 20.

            In the meantime, the essence and the matter, maybe you will please with some sort of delights?
  5. +1
    28 September 2016 17: 24
    The Tsesarevich was not too damaged in battle, its guns and vehicles were in good working order, the hull did not have critical damage and flooding. From this point of view, nothing prevented the breakthrough of the battleship in Vladivostok. But in the battle the smokestacks of the ship suffered

    "Chimneys damaged" (with loss of full travel and range) - is it now called "not too damaged"? Or "mutually exclusive paragraph"?
    I don’t even remember about the fock-machine that could crash at any moment.
    1. +3
      28 September 2016 18: 19
      Quote: metallic
      "Chimneys damaged" (with loss of full travel and range) - is it now called "not too damaged"? Or "mutually exclusive paragraph"?
      I don’t even remember about the fock-machine that could crash at any moment.

      You didn’t understand a bit: this passage is a stone in the garden of those who consider the damage to the ship serious only when it affects the HPLC.
      From this point of view, formally "Tsarevich" was not too damaged in battle: guns and vehicles were in good condition, the hull did not have critical damage and flooding
      In fact, the EDB barely crawled to Qingdao.
      1. 0
        28 September 2016 23: 28
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In fact, the EDB barely crawled to Qingdao.

        And nothing that "barely crawled" so ran away from the Japanese linear forces that they did not even catch up with him? In view of the complete futility of this lesson.
        1. 0
          30 September 2016 11: 30
          the fog that had begun and the end of the day helped the Cesarevich to avoid trouble. And as soon as they disappeared, they immediately reduced their course (overspending and visibility of torches)
          Qingdao did not go further.
    2. 0
      28 September 2016 21: 58
      Dear Alexey RA answered your question better than I could do :)
  6. +1
    28 September 2016 17: 27
    Thank you so much Andrew! As always, it is very interesting, detailed, with a detailed description of events and facts.
    But I have one thing ... The situation by that time was more than unpleasant - the fortress was in a blockade, the troops were retreating, which means that the possibilities of unblocking are reduced, supplies in Port Arthur are limited and the presence of the fleet there exposes it to the risk of remaining after a while without the necessary supplies at all. Was this not one of Alekseev's reasons to "expel" the fleet from the fortress?
    And so yes, quite rightly, the fleet had to conduct active actions and try to inflict at least some damage to the enemy. Which, alas, has not been done.
    1. +1
      28 September 2016 22: 01
      Quote: Trapper7
      But I have one thing ... The situation by that time was more than unpleasant - the fortress was in a blockade, the troops were retreating, which means that the possibilities of unblocking are reduced, supplies in Port Arthur are limited and the presence of the fleet there exposes it to the risk of remaining after a while without the necessary supplies at all. Was this not one of Alekseev's reasons to "expel" the fleet from the fortress?

      You see, dear Trapper7, I would understand if the idea of ​​a breakthrough to Vladivostok came from the governor in July, for example. But she, apparently, appeared right after the Japanese started the landing and got stronger when it became clear that Bezobrazov wouldn’t get into Arthur :). And this is very premature. In my IMHO, of course
  7. 0
    28 September 2016 20: 42
    It is not surprising that V.K. Witgeft retreated - he did not consider himself able to fight such an enemy.


    Rear Admiral Vitgeft V.K. had a battle plan, he tried to implement it. But again the speed intervened, or rather, the superiority of the main part of the Japanese fleet in it. Realizing that he could not take the planned position, he decided to leave for Port Arthur. It was very difficult for us to come to the idea that the main part of the squadron should consist of the same type of ships.
    1. 0
      28 September 2016 22: 03
      Quote: 27091965i
      Rear Admiral Vitgeft V.K. had a battle plan, he tried to implement it.

      A reversal of the "Tsarevich" from the Japanese? A strange plan. He himself writes to the governor about something completely different and I quoted his plan in the article. If you disagree, I ask you to specify what you think the Witgeft plan was and from what sources it became known to you.
      1. +1
        28 September 2016 22: 40
        and from what sources he became known to you.


        Hello Andrey. The action plan of the squadron is described in "The work of the historical commission to describe the actions of the fleet in the war of 1904-1905 at the Naval General Staff."
        1. 0
          29 September 2016 15: 16
          Greetings Igor! To my deep regret, this source is currently unavailable to me.
          1. 0
            29 September 2016 16: 11
            Andrew!!! Short excerpts are in the Marine collection, if I am not mistaken for 1907.
            Quote: 27091965i
            and from what sources he became known to you.


            Hello Andrey. The action plan of the squadron is described in "The work of the historical commission to describe the actions of the fleet in the war of 1904-1905 at the Naval General Staff."

            U.K. Witgeft had many sound plans !!! He is a staffer !!!! This is his diocese !!! But with the performers, unfortunately, everything was very, very bad (((
  8. 0
    28 September 2016 20: 48
    Quite right, it came right after the fall of Arthur, and only Nebogatov from all the flagships tried to offer at least some kind of action, unfortunately he was simply ignored, perhaps in that case the defeat would not have been so devastating.

    Nebogatov not only tried, but also did. And did.
    To begin with, having entered into an unauthorized radio game with the Japanese, he helped them determine the position of the squadron.
    When starting the battle, he managed to lag behind with his squad to such a distance (up to 38 cable ones) that he could not fire. More precisely, did not want to.
    Of course, Kamimura had to engage in a firefight with the "miracle cruisers". And the old, "not intended for squadron battle" BBO, but equipped with amphibious crews, prize artillerymen and suitable shells, quickly disabled one of the cruisers of the "best project in the world." It is clear that the devil has beguiled. Probably wanted to apologize. It turned out better. He surrendered himself, and the teams, and the ships handed over. Such is the hero-traitor.
  9. 0
    28 September 2016 21: 02
    Suppose that the Russians experienced problems with coal during the breakthrough. Not enough, at best. Did the Japanese have enough?
    Their autonomy is less. Even battleships. Not to mention the armored cruisers, on which everything was sacrificed to excessive armor: fire performance (inferior to armored cruisers of one and a half times smaller displacement, seaworthiness, speed. Kamimura's flagship stopped pursuing Russian cruisers due to lack of ammunition, and Azuma) with its 15 nodes the detachment was braking.
    I support the majority of researchers: having missed a chance in the Yellow Sea, Togo would not have chased anywhere.
    1. 0
      28 September 2016 22: 05
      Quote: ignoto
      Did the Japanese have enough?

      Yes, enough.
      Quote: ignoto
      Their autonomy is less. Even armadillos

      Sorry, but you are mistaken.
      1. 0
        28 September 2016 22: 35
        He’s not entirely mistaken, the Japanese really sacrificed autonomy, they didn’t need it in this theater, everything is simple, supply bases are almost around every corner, plus a bunch of British sea stations where the Japanese plp willingly loaded all the coal with coal! Togo even small number destroyers dragged along with him all in all .. Plus a free slave force in the form of Koreans and Chinese
    2. 0
      28 September 2016 23: 40
      Quote: ignoto
      Did the Japanese have enough?

      Yes.
      Quote: ignoto
      Their autonomy is less.

      Where did such "revelations" come from? Their autonomy was less than just the autonomy of Retvizan. In addition, the autonomy of Victory and the Tsarevich exceeded that of Asahi and Fuji. But it was inferior to the autonomy of Sikishima and Mikasa.
      Quote: ignoto
      Not to mention armored cruisers

      And what did the Japanese DBK have to do with linear combat?
      Quote: ignoto
      and "Azuma" with its 15 nodes slowed down the detachment.

      Just in case, I want to surprise you, Azuma was the fastest Japanese DBK. Its residual velocity at the beginning of the RNE is estimated at 20,5 knots. Yes, and Rurik vigorously snapping up at a speed of 17,5 knots, this supposedly 15-node goner somehow caught up and even surpassed.
    3. +1
      29 September 2016 04: 20
      Quote: ignoto
      I support the majority of researchers: having missed a chance in the Yellow Sea, Togo would not have chased anywhere.

      Togo had a rendezvous with Kamimura at Ross Island (not far from the Tsushima Strait), where they would be together with Witgeft and wait.
  10. 0
    28 September 2016 23: 04
    I promised myself not to interfere with these "publications" anymore. But I have strength to watch how "someone from Chelyabinsk" methodically tramples the MOST OUTSTANDING RUSSIAN FLEETER OF THE 20TH CENTURY into the mud. Having achieved the most outstanding victory of this very fleet in this very century. Those. esteemed Admiral Wittgeft. From "publication" to "publication".
    Hmmm. Such great ones cannot be understood. And their greatness is not to be realized. But you can bite in "publications".
    As a result of a brilliantly planned and carried out extremely risky (this is to the question of the author's pearls in earlier "publications" about Witgeft's fear of responsibility) mine operation, a third (!!!) of the Japanese linear fleet was sent to the bottom. Including the most powerful EBR RYAV - Hatsuse. Can “someone from Chelyabinsk” cite as an example some other Russian / Soviet admiral of the 20th century who achieved something similar? Not even like that, but at least 10% of the level of Admiral Witgeft?
    Of course no. But the manuals of the Department of Agitation and Propaganda of the Central Committee of the CPSU are more important. Therefore, the "author" has Witgeft nothing. And the pest Makarov (this is the official opinion of the Russian General Music School, if anything, there is "paper" available), that's it. Through the looking glass foreve.
    "Devastation, it is not in the closets, it is in the heads" - Bulgakov.
    Yes, and one more thing, Andryusha. Even the remaining 2/3 of the linear nuclear forces were noticeably stronger than the miserable scrapes of 1TOE. This was understood and understood by all. Except you:
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And the point here is not at all that the Heihatiro Togo United Fleet excelled the Russian forces in Port Arthur in all respects.

    Further, about coal and is completely enchanting. Especially about coal for Poltava and Novik. Such is this "source", Lieutenant Cherkasov. About Sevastopol, right.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    and if in his usual state, following the twelve-node move, the battleship spent 76 tons of coal per day, then as a result of the battle this figure increased to 600 (six hundred) tons.

    I'm already starting to laugh. The numbers are sucked, I hope, from the finger. And frankly far-fetched, tk. A 12-knot course was not required from the Tsarevich at all. These "calculations" were invented later. To justify his desertion and subsequent internment.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    “Tsesarevich” under the project had a normal supply of coal - 800 tons, full - 1350 tons

    And in fact 787 and 1370 tons.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    on July 28, he went out to sea with 1100 tons, since nobody really wanted to overload the ship before the battle.

    The maximum reserve of coal of the Tsarevich, provided that he remained in a combat-ready state, was ~ 1160 tons. With novya. Further, the figure could change slightly. Since the enemy was expected not far from the PA, the ships were not overloaded. "Nowhere fit naval commander" Vitgeft took this factor into account. "Cool Admiral Rozhdestvensky", no. Hence the different results.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And after the battle on July 28, the battleship had only 500 tons.

    Youth in our time in such cases speaks rjunemagu.
    Why don't you check elementary figures? After all, expose yourself in a funny light.
    At 600 tons of coal, Tsesarevich even at full speed could dig almost to Japan. And no one would have caught up with him, by the way. It was a hybrid of EBR1 and EBR2. Nedoslon and peremoski, in one bottle.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the battleship "Peresvet": he went into battle, having 1200-1500 tons of coal (the exact amount, unfortunately, is unknown)

    Does it lie? The maximum reserve of Peresvet coal, provided that it remained in a combat-ready state, was ~ 950 tons (maid in Russia, nothing can be done). Yes, and he did not need 1200-1500 tons, for what they were. And at 950 tons he could drive 10 knots from PA to Vladik and vice versa with an economical move. And a little more would be left.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    but there is evidence that Peresvet returned to Port Arthur with nearly empty coal pits.

    Decided to make fun again? Why do you write frank nonsense?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the maximum that could be done was to bring the battleship to Qingdao and intern there.

    And it is best to drown at the mooring wall.
    Why are you writing about something you don’t understand at all? And, most importantly, for whom write?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    At the same time, the two oldest battleships obviously could not get to Vladivostok.

    In fact, the range in a combat-ready state during the course of 10 knots near Sevastopol was almost 1000 m.m. And who interfered with 9 or 8 nodal passage? After all, it was still impossible to leave the nuclear power plant.
    And yet, the range in combat-ready condition during a course of 10 knots near Poltava was almost 2060 m.m. Hello to Lieutenant Cherkasov.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But this is not so at all.

    Very much so. If you send Sevastopol to Qingdao at night, and Poltava to the Baltic. The rest of the Russian ships, the Japanese simply would not have caught up to Tsushima and KP.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the squadron did not need to leave Port Arthur, but had to conduct active military operations, in the hope of imposing a battle on the part of the Japanese fleet.

    Yes? What forces? Oh, these sofa admirals.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the governor, in spite of his admiralial rank, very poorly imagined the consequences of such a breakthrough.

    1THE ruined the desire to save Poltava and Sevastopol at all costs. Without them, she could easily have gone to Vladik. But as a result, in the battle in ZhM, it was scattered (mainly due to the desertion of part of the gentlemen of officers and admirals) and already then ceased to exist as a combat unit. And her command was so demoralized that it made no attempt to save at least the Victory, Retvisan and Peresvet (and Bayan). Which was quite real.
    1. +4
      29 September 2016 03: 53
      Quote: rjxtufh
      As a result of a brilliantly planned and carried out extremely risky (this is to the question of the author's pearls in earlier "publications" about Wittgeft's fear of responsibility) mine operation, a third (!!!) of the Japanese linear fleet was sent to the bottom.

      Personally, Vitgeft had nothing to do with the operation you mentioned. Well, except that he deigned to give permission for the exit of "Cupid". Want proof?
      Already starting to laugh.

      Is it weak for you to stop laughing and protest with the numbers in your hands?
      Does it lie? The maximum reserve of Peresvet coal, provided that it remained in a combat-ready state, was ~ 950 tons

      This is exactly so, on "Peresvet" there were exactly 1 tons, while, mind you, the battleship did not even think of losing its "combat-ready state." The mystery of history?
      At 600 tons of coal, Tsesarevich even at full speed could dig almost to Japan.

      Prove if you can.
      Decided to make fun again? Why do you write frank nonsense?

      The fact that the coal pits were empty, said engineer N. N. Kuteynikov. Unless, of course, this name tells you something.
      Without them, she could easily have gone to Vladik.

      That's right. Managed the same “Novik” from “Kasaga” and “Chitose” to break away, which means that “Tsarevich” with “Retvizan” could joke with “Asahi” with “Sikishima” and “Mikasa” to come off.
      1. +1
        29 September 2016 04: 57
        Gg))) always amazed this comparison of Novik and these two dogs)))) Yes, they would never have caught up with him with all their desire !!! Disgusting art platforms, they always buried their nose because 8 "tank for them is redundant !!! By the way, the Varyag is a descendant of Kasagi, already fattened by almost 1500 tons. Novik and these, if you may say so, are not clear that they are absolutely different ships! If you compare them with the Bogatyr. And Caesar and Zealous could easily come off
        1. +1
          29 September 2016 09: 23
          Quote: Nehist
          By the way, the Varangian is a descendant of Kasagi, who has already grown fat by almost 1500 tons.

          "Kasagi" and "Varyag" are related only to the shipyards where they were built. "Kasagi" and "Chitose" were built according to the drawings of Armstrong's "Takasago", and "Varyag" is a separate project, created according to one terms of reference and one program for the needs of the Far East. According to the same terms of reference, "Askold" and "Bogatyr" were created.
          1. 0
            29 September 2016 12: 03
            Quote: Rurikovich
            According to the same terms of reference, "Askold" and "Bogatyr" were created

            But nothing that the Varangian was a fighter cruiser? And Askold and Bogartyr of the scout cruiser? Those. these were ships of various purposes.
            In fairness, it must be said that the Bogatyr was so good that, in case of urgent need, he could partially fulfill the duties of a fighter cruiser. But not Askold.
            1. +1
              29 September 2016 12: 38
              But nothing that the Varangian was a fighter cruiser? And Askold and Bogartyr of the scout cruiser? Those. these were ships of various purposes.
              In fairness, it must be said that the Bogatyr was so good that, in case of urgent need, he could partially fulfill the duties of a fighter cruiser. But not Askold. [/
              Throwing at the TTZ 6tysyachnikov is not at all clear, as part of the same task to create completely different ships. Of all the cruisers of the 1st TOE, the most successful were Boyarin and Bayan, a kind of versatile who could be used in different forms. Well, just like Varyag did not pull on the exterminator
            2. 0
              29 September 2016 17: 00
              Quote: rjxtufh
              But nothing that the Varangian was a fighter cruiser? And Askold and Bogartyr of the scout cruiser? Those. these were ships of various purposes.

              For those who are in the tank and do not hear reasonable arguments - "Varyag", "Askold", "Rich
              yr "were created according to one specification (6000t, 23 knots, 12 - 152mm guns) within the framework of one program" for the needs of the Far East. "They turned out different because they were built at different firms in different states (America and Germany). Even" Bogatyr "and" Askold "got different because they were built even in the same country, but in different firms! And they are not fighter cruisers (what nonsense !!!!), and the wording is indicated clearly and clearly -" scout cruisers 2 class with a displacement of 6000 "!
              How much can you read different alternative nonsense belay fool
              Have they come from the alternative, perhaps ??? ... request
            3. 0
              29 September 2016 23: 41
              Quote: Nehist
              Of all the cruisers of the 1st TOE, the most successful were Boyarin and Bayan, a kind of versatile who could be used in different forms.

              Boyarin was a small and close fighter cruiser. It was a ship of a strange concept, the scope of its application was not entirely clear. Rather, he suited the concept of terror in close communications. A kind of overgrowth destroyer leader.
              Moreover, against the original idea, he missed 1 speed knot. Which was important enough for fighter cruisers.
              The button accordion in the idea was very interesting. Scout cruiser of the first rank, but not armored, as usual, but armored. But he was ruined by a number of factors.
              First of all, saving on cars. In order to save, they were unified with the machines of the Cesarevich. The Tsarevich had enough of them, Bayan, no.
              In addition, there was a defect in the theoretical drawing and the casing (later the drawing was corrected, but the casing is gone). As a result, due to excessive fuel consumption, Bayan turned from a distant one into a close reconnaissance. Those. He competed not with Bogatyr, but in principle with the unsuccessful Askold.
              Quote: Nehist
              Well, just like Varyag did not pull on the exterminator

              Even as I pulled. And even after the start of Russian operation, it could have been. But he was locked in Chemulpo as a hospital cruiser. At the same time, 2 full-time hospital cruisers, Diane and Pallas, were hanging around in the PA.
              Total incompetence. I already wrote about this above.
            4. 0
              29 September 2016 23: 49
              Quote: Rurikovich
              For those who are in the tank and do not hear reasonable arguments - "Varyag", "Askold", "Rich
              yr "were created according to one specification (6000t, 23 knots, 12 - 152mm guns) within the framework of one program" for the needs of the Far East ".

              You, before talking about tanks, try to understand basic things. Then you will immediately see a lot of things. And from this you will immediately stop writing nonsense.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              And they are not fighter cruisers (what nonsense !!!!), and the wording is indicated clearly and clearly - "reconnaissance cruisers of the 2nd class with a displacement of 6000"!

              You apparently do not understand Russian very well. If you say that I once once called Askold and the Bogatyr fighter cruisers.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              How many different alternative nonsense can I already read belay fool

              You need to learn to understand what you read. This is your problem.
          2. +1
            29 September 2016 16: 22
            Rurikovich, your comments are quite sensible and you are familiar with the question. But you are not familiar with the concept of the then shipbuilding, you are not alone here. Our well-known opponent who is constantly under different flags and nicknames (for which a huge minus to the site) is also mistaken. Kramp initially proposed Kasagi as a prototype of the Varyag and, moreover, with 4 8 "guns, not only 4500 tons, but as well as the demanding TTZ 6000. And the drawings almost exactly repeat Kasagi !!! Extend, add a forecastle, and so on ... There is a proven technology, made a few changes and that's it ...
            1. 0
              29 September 2016 17: 20
              Quote: Nehist
              Kramp initially offered Kasagi as a prototype of the Varyag and, moreover, with 4 8 "guns, not only 4500 tons, but as well as the required TTZ 6000. And the drawings are almost exactly the same as Kasagi !!!

              Crump suggested, I know. But he was immediately rejected. I repeat once again - you have money, you want to place an order at a foreign shipyard for the ship you want to have. You have given clear terms of reference for a specific ship with specific characteristics (6000 tons, 23 knots, 12 - 152 mm guns). The question is, where are you going to send Crump with his Kasagi counterpart? Moreover, the state gives money for this cruiser. That's what the then sent. Because they wanted to have a reconnaissance cruiser of 6000 tons, with 23 speed knots and 12 six-inches, as indicated in the program, which involved the allocation of funds. Why come up with different conspiracy theories request
              Quote: Nehist
              But here, not much is familiar with the concept of shipbuilding of that time,

              What's the concept? We placed an order in France for the "Tsesarevich" (12000t., 18uz, 4-305mm, 12-152mm). The French built it and it turned out that this ship was superior to the French. Further, the French built their battleships on the basis of the "Tsesarevich, and not with a rhombic arrangement of single-gun main guns. Placed with Crump an order for the same "Retvizan". It turned out that all subsequent Americans, "Maine", were based on the project of the Russians. that would have the same type (in characteristics) ships. The same "Bogatyr" as the most successful served as an example for the development of the series. Under the same program. According to the same program, reconnaissance cruisers of the 10rd class were built, the same at different shipyards in different countries - "Novik" and "Boyarin" (3t., 3000 knots, 23-6mm). "Novik" turned out to be more successful than "Boyar" (faster) and therefore served as a model for the continuation of the series - "Pearls" and "Emerald".
              The same "Tsesarevich" served as the prototype of the "Borodino" series, laid down for the same needs of the Far East.
              So Russia assumed to have the same type of ships of its classes, which facilitated the management and use ...
            2. +1
              30 September 2016 00: 04
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Because they wanted to have a 6000-ton reconnaissance cruiser, with 23 knots of speed and 12 six-inch ones, as indicated in the program, which provided for the allocation of funds. Why come up with different conspiracy theories

              In the person of Varyag, they wanted to have and had a fighter cruiser. This is evident from the dimensions of his body. And above all, in completeness.
              Of the visible signs of a fighter cruiser, one can note the nature of its weapons, typical of fighter cruisers.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              and it turned out that this ship was superior to the French

              Really? And what? Maybe Kutsim GP, which could not be made complete without overtightening the ship? Or maybe he was strong from the lack of protection of auxiliary artillery? After the destruction of which he became very vulnerable to the destroyers of the enemy.
              An attempt to fix the jambs of Cesarevich led to the construction of a series of 2TOE mutant ships. And also to the creation of an unknown ship, Glory (it stands apart from the rest of Borodin).
              Quote: Rurikovich
              It turned out that all subsequent Americans, the "Mains", were based on the Russian project.

              Actually, the Retwisan project was a project of Kramp, not the Russian side.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              According to the same program, reconnaissance cruisers of the 3rd class were built, the same at different shipyards in different countries - "Novik" and "Boyarin" (3000t., 23 knots, 6-120mm).

              In fact, Boyarin was a fighter cruiser. Near and small. This is, just in case, a clarification.
              I already wrote above, but I repeat, fighter cruisers had completely different dimensions of the hulls. And above all, a different body completeness. What was connected with the specifics of the tasks performed. As well as a slightly different composition of weapons.
        2. 0
          29 September 2016 11: 59
          Quote: Nehist
          If you compare them with the Athlete.

          With a hero?
          No, it was something between Novik and Bogatyr, closer to Novik. But absolutely the same in purpose, scout cruisers. Very "so-so", in fact.
      2. 0
        29 September 2016 11: 53
        Quote: Comrade
        Personally, Wittgeft had nothing to do with the operation you mentioned.

        Well, of course. From the same PA mostly played the balalaika apparently.
        Quote: Comrade
        Well, except that he deigned to give permission for the exit of "Cupid".

        You apparently don’t even understand what the essence of that mine operation was. What is generally mined.
        Quote: Comrade
        Is it weak for you to stop laughing and protest with the numbers in your hands?

        To do this, you need to have a desire. But he is not.
        Quote: Comrade
        This is exactly so, on "Peresvet" there were exactly 1 tons, while, mind you, the battleship did not even think of losing its "combat-ready state." The mystery of history?

        Learn the armored ship device. And weight characteristics Peresvet including
        I give a hint, the ability to shoot cannons does not mean that the armored (and even armored) ship is in a combat-ready state. As a striking example, Tsushima can be cited, where almost all RIF ships could shoot from cannons, but were not brought to a combat-friendly state.
        Quote: Comrade
        Prove if you can.

        I can, of course. If I want to.
        Quote: Comrade
        said engineer N. N. Kuteynikov. Unless, of course, this name tells you something.

        Though the pope. Together with mom. However, what cannot be in principle will not happen regardless of anyone else's statements.
        As for Kuteinikov. What is this husband famous for? By building ships like "samotop"?
        Quote: Comrade
        "Novik" managed to break away from "Kasagi" and "Chitose"

        Are you hinting at the technical condition of the ships?
        Yes, there is a question about that. Because the real state of the RIF and YIF ships is mostly unknown to us. Or known as "Packinham's ravings."
        Therefore, Novik’s example is uncharacteristic. He had it so, Retvisan could have it. In any case, when giving estimates, I focus on the normative reduction in speed from the life of the ship. And it is impossible to navigate on the basis of their sloppiness of the machine-command.
        Although, the example of the Varyag and the same Novik is known to us.
        But we also know Rurik, who fully complies with the standards. We also know the Tsesarevich, who was not caught up simply because it was impossible to catch up with it (while we certainly remember the deplorable state of the ship later declared). Those. he also fit into the standards. And Russia, despite the sloppiness of the commander and the team, fit into the standards for the state in which he was in, too.
        So not everything was so with the match of the RIF ships.
    2. +3
      29 September 2016 10: 23
      Quote: rjxtufh
      As a result of a brilliantly planned and carried out extremely risky (this is to the question of the author's pearls in earlier "publications" about Wittgeft's fear of responsibility) mine operation, a third (!!!) of the Japanese linear fleet was sent to the bottom.

      It remains only to find out why you would attribute the merit of the destruction of the EBR to Wittgeft.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      Including the most powerful EDB RYV - Hatsuse

      The most powerful EBR RYAV was Mikasa. However, your classifications are so cunning that I would not be surprised at the Akebono fighter
      Quote: rjxtufh
      Already starting to laugh. The numbers are sucked, I hope, from the finger.

      Yes, no question, give yours.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      Since the enemy was expected not far from the PA, the ships were not overloaded. "Nowhere fit naval commander" Vitgeft took this factor into account. "Cool Admiral Rozhdestvensky", no. Hence the different results.

      Taking into account the fact that Tsesarevich went to sea with 1120 tons of coal, and on the Eagle on the morning of May 13, that is, a day before the battle, in response to a request from “Prince Suvorov” he reported the presence of 1 tons of coal, i.e. . in fact, by the beginning of the battle, the Rozhdestvensky EDB had less coal than
      Quote: rjxtufh
      At 600 tons of coal, Tsesarevich even at full speed could dig almost to Japan. And no one would have caught up with him, by the way. It was a hybrid of EBR1 and EBR2. Nedoslon and peremoski, in one bottle.

      Well, in your alternative reality - no doubt. Release hydrofoils - and forth.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      The maximum reserve of Peresvet coal, provided that it remained in a combat-ready state, was ~ 950 tons (maid in Russia, nothing can be done). Yes, and he did not need 1200-1500 tons, for what they were. And at 950 tons he could drive 10 knots from PA to Vladik and vice versa with an economical move. And a little more would be left.

      Well what can I say? You live by the principle - if reality does not fit into your "theories", well, this reality. There is a fact - the ship left with 1500 tons and returned almost empty. What's the use of your speculations?
      Quote: rjxtufh
      Why are you writing about something you don’t understand at all?

      Yes, not only me - no one in the world understands. Only you.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      In fact, the range in a combat-ready state during the course of 10 knots near Sevastopol was almost 1000 m.m. And who interfered with 9 or 8 nodal passage?

      Of course it is possible. And how long would the fire contact continue, what damage would the ships be rowing at the same time, and how would this affect their range? The question is a rhetorical one, I do not expect a reasonable answer from you.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      Very much so. If you send Sevastopol to Qingdao at night, and Poltava to the Baltic. The rest of the Russian ships, the Japanese simply would not have caught up to Tsushima and KP.

      Familiarize yourself with the real speeds of Russian battleships at your leisure - you will learn a lot about yourself. But the matter is not even in speeds, but in coal reserves - however, if you are unable to understand what is written in the article, then there is no point in retyping this into a comment.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      Yes? What forces?

      Available.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      Oh, these sofa admirals.

      Yeah. You yourself then drove armored squadrons across all the seas and oceans. Captain Vrungel himself, not otherwise.
      1. 0
        30 September 2016 00: 44
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It remains only to find out why you would attribute the merit of the destruction of the EBR to Wittgeft.

        To say that this is a strange phrase is to say nothing.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Mikasa was the most powerful EDB of the REV.

        Learn the materiel, my dear. Probably then you will understand how the products of first-class shipyards of those times (Armstrong, Vulcan) differed from the products of middle-class shipyards. Which then belonged to Vickers.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Taking into account the fact that Tsesarevich went to sea with 1120 tons of coal, and on the Eagle on the morning of May 13, that is, a day before the battle, in response to a request from “Prince Suvorov” he reported the presence of 1 tons of coal, i.e. . in fact, by the beginning of the battle, the Rozhdestvensky EDB had less coal than

        The attempts of a person who does not understand the topic at all to squeeze some articles on similar topics look funny.
        1. 1095 tons of coal on Orel was in the morning on the day of the battle.
        2. Eagle and Tsesarevich, these are ships of DIFFERENT PROJECTS. AND DIFFERENT BUILDINGS. Therefore, the advantage of Tsesarevich was 207 tons and the coal reserve in operational condition was 1160 tons. And the advantage of Orel was 635 tons and the coal reserve in operational condition was 600 tons.
        These are the things, have fun further ...
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, in your alternative reality - no doubt. Release hydrofoils - and forth.

        I won’t even answer. On underwater, so on underwater.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        There is a fact - the ship left with 1500 tons and returned almost empty. What is the use of your reasoning?

        So I hope that you are still sucking such "facts" out of your finger. And not God knows where.
        Can you figure out at least a little on the topic? Can you imagine what 1500 tons of coal is? I see that it is not. And your "sources", too.
        After all, write explicit nonsense, why do you persist?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And how long would the fire contact continue, what damage would the ships be rowing at the same time, and how would this affect their range? The question is a rhetorical one, I do not expect a reasonable answer from you.

        Just in case, I want to inform you that sometimes on the planet Earth sometimes night falls. Well, this is such a thing when little is seen.
        If you go from PA to Vladik 10 by a nodal move (on average), then this distance the ship will pass in 110 hours. This is 4,5 days. And at least 4 times that night will come.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Familiarize yourself with the real speeds of Russian battleships at your leisure - you will learn a lot about yourself.

        In your reality, maybe. And in the one that was, everything was not so bad.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But the matter is not even in speeds, but in coal reserves - however, if you are unable to understand what is written in the article, then there is no point in retyping this into a comment.

        Those. should I silently believe in the nonsense you wrote? And 1500 tons of coal in one short yield, too? But should I not believe that the Earth will fly on the cosmic axis the other day?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Available.

        And were there still forces?
        1. +1
          30 September 2016 10: 09
          Quote: rjxtufh
          To say that this is a strange phrase is to say nothing.

          Naturally :)) That factthat the observation of the Japanese ships, allowing to determine the place of laying mines, was organized at the request of Ivanov, and Vitgeft did not think of this before - does not fit into your "concept". The one factthat Ivanov set up a minefield contrary to Vitgeft's direct instructions does not fit into your "concept". Because if we take them into account, we understand that Witgeft's role in this success tends to zero.
          But this does not fit into your "concept" - so, so much the worse for the facts. You didn’t bring ANYTHING in substantiating your "concept" - only Yaroslavna's cry and shouts about balalaikas.
          In your opinion, I’ve been pouring mud on Witgeft ... well, they would have disproved at least some of what I wrote about him.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Learn the materiel, my dear

          Wow :))) So this is me, so I don’t know the materiel, but you, therefore, know? :) Well, we’re watching the materiel.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          1095 tons of coal on Orel was in the morning on the day of the battle.

          But the Diamond signal book does not agree with you

          So, 1095 tons of coal were on "Orel" according to the morning report on May 13
          Question. What exactly do you not know? The fact that 1095 tons in Orel was exactly the 13th? Or the fact that the Tsushima battle began on May 14?
          Quote: rjxtufh
          2. Eagle and Tsesarevich, these are ships of DIFFERENT PROJECTS. AND DIFFERENT BUILDINGS. Therefore, the advantage of Tsesarevich was 207 tons and the coal reserve in operational condition was 1160 tons. And the advantage of Orel was 635 tons and the coal reserve in operational condition was 600 tons.

          There is one "small" problem - your definition of a combat-ready state does not make sense. Accordingly, all your further arguments do not make sense either.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Can you imagine what 1500 tons of coal is? I see that it is not. And your "sources", too.
          After all, write explicit nonsense, why do you persist?

          You are a nonsense specialist with us, not me. There is information from engineer Kuteinikov about almost empty pits. Peresvet. There is evidence that "Tsesarevich" used up almost 600 tons of coal, while the consumption of coal at Tsesarevich in its normal state would be much less than that of "Peresvet". There is knowledge that Peresvet suffered the most. And, finally, there is the coal reserves of "Peresvet" given in the article - 1200-1500 tons. All the above data have no internal contradictions.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Just in case, I want to inform you that sometimes on the planet Earth sometimes night falls.

          Not being able to object in essence, begin to rave.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          If you go from PA to Vladik 10 by a nodal move (on average), then this distance the ship will pass in 110 hours. This is 4,5 days. And at least 4 times that night will come.

          Yeah. How many times will the day come, have you tried to count? :)
          Quote: rjxtufh
          And in the one that was, everything was not so bad.

          Well, yes, and "Victory" in the 1902 races held as much as 15,7 knots. All is well, beautiful marquise.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Those. should I silently believe in the nonsense you wrote?

          You do not owe me anything. The only thing you must (not me) is to understand that if reality is unable to squeeze through the needle eye of your perception, then these are your problems, not the problems of reality
          1. 0
            30 September 2016 11: 45
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            organized at the request of Ivanov, but Vitgeft had not thought of this before

            My dear, at least try to understand, at least partially, what happened there with this mine operation. And having already understood its essence, it may be overwhelming to you that no Ivanov, together with Petrov and Sidorov, would ever have decided on her. Only perhaps only in fear of execution on the spot.
            An operation of this kind, of such a tremendous degree of risk, could only be carried out by a naval commander of the rank of commander. AND NO LESS. Those. Vitgeft. And leave the speculations of the "nimble battaliers" with you.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The fact that Ivanov put up a minefield contrary to the direct instructions of Witgeft

            Brad, totally in your style. Have read "nimble battalions". This is your "level of understanding the topic", the level of a ship battalion (storekeeper).
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In your opinion, I’ve been pouring mud on Witgeft ... well, they would have disproved at least some of what I wrote about him.

            So he denied it. And the fact that you do not understand the essence of what happened about that day on the PA is your problem.
            I must say that in the topic you are not really at all. So, they heard something on the top. But aplomb, hoo. But this is superficial. And completely of little value.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So, 1095 tons of coal were on "Orel" according to the morning report on May 13

            My dear, it seems to me that only one of you still does not know that in the signaling book of the Diamond walking on the Internet during typographic copying an unfortunate shift of dates occurred. And the data supposedly on May 13, actually correspond to the data on May 14.
            I said, you do not know the topic deeply. So, flutter on the top. About approximately.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There is one "small" problem - your definition of a combat-ready state does not make sense.

            My definition?
            Hmmm. Those. for what normal and full displacement was displayed for each ship, you also do not know. You are an amazing fruit. You know practically nothing, but your "articles" bloom in magnificent color.
            I’ll hint to you that the height of the GP (for armored ships) was finite. And the level of the waterline in a combat-ready state had to go strictly between the max (full displacement) and min (normal displacement) levels. And ONLY in this case, the ship’s protection worked fine. In ALL other cases, the defense did not act or did not fully act. And from this the ship was only partially combat-ready, could shoot, and could not parry strikes. Next, see Tsushima.
            About the same thing applied to armored ships. And armless, too.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There is information from engineer Kuteinikov about almost empty pits. Peresvet. There is evidence that "Tsesarevich" used up almost 600 tons of coal, while the consumption of coal at Tsesarevich in its normal state would be much less than that of "Peresvet". There is knowledge that Peresvet suffered the most. And, finally, there is the coal reserves of "Peresvet" given in the article - 1200-1500 tons. All the above data have no internal contradictions.

            My condolences to you. I can’t help you here already. The story that crocodiles fly because Comrade Major said so in action.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Well, yes, and "Victory" in the 1902 races held as much as 15,7 knots. All is well, beautiful marquise.

            Or maybe motorcycle racing? Or cycling?
            Are you sure that in 1902 were there a race
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            that if reality is unable to squeeze through the needle eye of your perception, then these are your problems, not the problems of reality

            So I recommend you to realize this truth. You need.
            1. +2
              30 September 2016 15: 51
              Quote: rjxtufh
              My dear, it seems to me that only one of you still does not know that in the signaling book of the Diamond walking on the Internet during typographic copying an unfortunate shift of dates occurred. And the data supposedly on May 13, actually correspond to the data on May 14.

              Well yes. ... We took the dates, and moved - 13th to 14th, 14th to 15th ... :))) And Eagle had 1095 tons in the morning of May 14, well, in the morning of May 15, Navarin reported to Almaz with the bottom of the sea :))) He drowned a little on the night from 14 to 15, you know.
              Quote: rjxtufh
              An operation of this kind, of such a tremendous degree of risk, could only be carried out by a naval commander of the rank of commander. AND NO LESS. Those. Vitgeft. And leave the speculations of the "nimble battaliers" with you.

              Well, if for you "nimble battaliers" are the minutes of the meeting of the flagships, Ivanov's report and Vitgeft's report, then yes. However, I am not at all surprised. Knowing you for many years, I perfectly understand that "nimble", or rather "sniffing battaliers" are your natural state.
              Quote: rjxtufh
              So he denied it.

              Thank you, laughed heartily. "Subverter" ....
              Quote: rjxtufh
              I’ll hint to you that the height of the GP (for armored ships) was finite.

              And I am not hinting to you, but in plain text I say that the main armor belt that has gone under the water does not and cannot serve as a basis for recording the battleships of the Tsesarevich - Borodino types (and not only them) as incapable of combat. And they explained this to you 100 times already, but what's the point? I will repeat only one thing (not for you, you still hear nothing but your own voice). The same Tsarevich had not only the main, but also the second armor belt, which did not go into the water. And by and large, the unsinkability of the EBR of that era was ensured precisely by the second armor belt, because the first, which was supposed to protrude 0,6-0,8 m above the waterline according to the project (but almost no one had it so high), was not able to provide protection against overwhelming. In fact, the GBP's task was to protect the ship from underwater holes, but the belt still coped with this task even when it was completely submerged.
              The EDB of the time of the REV often engaged in battle with an armored belt, which was on the verge of going under water - and not one or more of them lost their combat effectiveness. This is evidenced by the entire experience of the REV. The opposite, for the time being, is indicated by one of your nose, pointing somewhere in the region of the North Star.
              Quote: rjxtufh
              And from this the ship was only partially combat-ready, could shoot, and could not parry strikes. Next, see Tsushima.

              Well, get off the unicorn and see. Tsushima's experience testifies strictly against you, because all the dead "Borodintsy" were exposed to a very strong enemy fire effect, and drowned for reasons that had nothing to do with the height of the armor belt.
              But you know what? You will NEVER admit that you are wrong on this matter. Because admitting this, you automatically admit to the complete delusion of your, if I may say so, "classifications" of warships, over which they laughed at both the alternative and the tsushima, and the FAI, too.
            2. 0
              1 October 2016 07: 11
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              He drowned a little on the night from 14 to 15, you know.

              Who would have thought.
              But your table is valid, with corrected dates. Usually found in curves. They corrected or ripped off from whom?
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Knowing you for many years, I perfectly understand that "nimble", or rather "sniffing battaliers" are your natural state.

              Those. From discussing the facts, proceed to discredit the opponent’s personality. Pretty dirty move, I must say.
              Sweetheart. I have not "known you for many years". I don't know you and, by and large, I don't want to know. Because you are absolutely not interesting to me with your "knowledge".
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              and in plain text I say that the main armor belt that has sunk under the water does not and cannot serve as a basis for recording battleships of the Tsesarevich - Borodino types (and not only them) as incapable of combat.

              I wrote to you there above regarding your "knowledge". So, I confirm.
              The battleship (and the EDB were battleships) with the GP that went under the water was not operational like a battleship. Further, it could be called and used as an armored cruiser with strong artillery, for example. But it was impossible to use for linear battle.
              Yes, and one more thing, do not confuse Cesarevich with Borodino. There were no ships of the Cesarevich-Borodino type. Flies separately, cutlets, separately.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The same Tsesarevich was not only the main, but also the second armored belt, which did not go into the water.

              The thickness of the GP at Tsesarevich was 160-250-170 mm. The thickness of the VP 145-200-120. Did you notice some difference in numbers? Do you think GPs made thicker for beauty?
              In addition, the GP was the full length of the ship. And VP defended him only partially. And this was critical, if only because there were no carp at the bottom of the extremities. And the armored deck did not replace them.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And by and large, the unsinkability of the EDB of that era was provided precisely by the second armored belt

              The farther into the forest, the thicker the partisans. And what about the ships, in which the VP did not exist at all? Were they terribly drowned?
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              the first one, which was supposed to stick out over the waterline by 0,6-0,8 m according to the project (but practically did not rise like that for anyone) was not able to provide protection against overflow.

              Have you seen yourself that does not rise? In what dream?
              The height of the GP over the overhead line was regulated by the numbers of full and normal displacement. Subject to these figures, and they were observed extremely strictly, even by 1TOE ships, everything was normal with the elevation of the GP. And in this position, the ships could already be fully operational.
              As for insidious overwhelming, then specify how the water pressure on the underwater hole differs from the water pressure on the surface hole.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Thank you, laughed heartily.

              What else do you have to do?
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              but with this task, even completely having gone under water, the belt still coped.

              Those. Having gone under water, the GP still defended the ship's waterline. Already from there, from under the water. Enchanting.
              You should sit down for a dissertation on this subject. Such unexpected news and innovation. After all, take away, do not hesitate a day.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The EDB of the time of the REV often engaged in battle with an armored belt, which was on the verge of going under water

              Well, the incompetent province went to write. Compose further.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The opposite, for the time being, is indicated by one of your nose, pointing somewhere in the region of the North Star.

              Well, and only perhaps Admiral Makarov, who set the figures for the maximum displacement for all 1TOE battleships. What rendered REALLY invaluable service to RIF.
              True, my calculations are slightly at odds with him. But for completely ridiculous quantities that can be ignored.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              because all the dead "Borodintsy" were exposed to a very strong enemy fire effect, and drowned for reasons not related to the height of the armor belt.

              It is convenient to tell the crew of Alexander III. Oslyaby crew, as a classic example.
              In addition, do not forget, the RIF under Tsushima dealt with the Japanese. Those. third-rate power then. Therefore, Tsushima is interesting, but as a special case, nothing more.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              But you know what? You will NEVER admit that you are wrong on this matter. Because admitting this, you automatically admit to the complete delusion of your, if I may say so, "classifications" of warships, over which they laughed at both the alternative and the tsushima, and the FAI, too.

              And again, you ascribe to me God knows what.
              Basically, I'm not surprised. There is a category of people who will not stop at anything in order to achieve some of their goals (which are often just ridiculous). And to pass off the opponent as a devil with horns, these are still "flowers". But these "methods" characterize these people not from the best side.
              I am sorry that I am forced to you, as a baby, to explain common truths on the topic "what is good and what is bad."
    3. 0
      30 September 2016 11: 38
      Quote: rjxtufh
      1THE ruined the desire to save Poltava and Sevastopol at all costs. Without them, she could easily have gone to Vladik.

      there were proposals about this, they rejected (for all hope was for the entire armored detachment). Demonstration on the Far.
      They would leave easily, if they could somehow imperceptibly, and since they were preparing and leaving ... Well, of course they could break through with losses.
      Quote: rjxtufh
      And her command was so demoralized that it made no attempt to save at least the Victory, Retvisan and Peresvet (and Bayan)

      "Bayan" could not go to sea as part of TOE1 that day.
      "Peresvet", "Retvizan", "Victory" could have been saved if they had gone to neutral ports. For more, alas, I'm sure the command was incapable (and the "Retvizan" was also damaged the day before, and in general he got something pretty much since the beginning of the war)
      1. 0
        30 September 2016 13: 25
        Quote: Retvizan
        Bayan "could not go to sea as part of TOE1 that day.
        "Peresvet", "Retvizan", "Victory" could have been saved if they had gone to neutral ports. For more, alas, I'm sure the command was incapable (and the "Retvizan" was also damaged the day before, and in general he got something pretty much since the beginning of the war)

        I had in mind to save later, after returning to the PA, leaving again and leaving there the low-speed boats Poltava and Sevastopol.
  11. 0
    28 September 2016 23: 27
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Alexey RA
    He-he-he ... "Tsarevich" is another good example of the fact that after a battle the EBR can have big problems even in the absence of serious defeats of the HHC

    good That's right. In general, as Comrade Kozma, who is Prutkov, used to say, to see the treb at the root :)
  12. +2
    29 September 2016 03: 23
    the chimneys of the ship were damaged in the battle: and if in the normal state, following a twelve-node move, the battleship spent 76 tons of coal per day, then as a result of the battle this figure increased to 600 (six hundred) tons. The “Tsesarevich” entered the sea on July 28 with 1100 tons. And after the battle on July 28, the battleship had only 500 tons:

    Dear Andrey, this is widespread data, however, there are more accurate figures. On the morning of July 28, "Tsesarevich" had 1 tons of coal, by the evening, after the ship left the battle, it turned out that 120 tons had been burned. Over the next day, another 266 tons were consumed, thus, on the day of July 310 and the day on July 28, the coal reserve decreased by 29 tons. The remaining coal was theoretically enough for the road to Vladivostok, however, it was necessary to go economically and under one bow group of boilers. It is clear that there was nothing to count on such "greenhouse conditions". By the way, it was experimentally established by Grigorovich that when the Tsesarevich's coal reserve exceeded one thousand tons, the ship's controllability deteriorated significantly, which actually happened on the morning of July 576.
    The situation was similar for the battleship “Peresvet”: he went into battle with 1200-1500 tons of coal (the exact quantity, unfortunately, is unknown),

    On the morning of July 28, the ship had a combat stock of coal, established even under Makarov - 1 500 tons. With more coal, an armadillo could enter a raid only at the moment of full water.

    Thank you, Andrei, for an interesting cycle, every time I look forward to the next part, I read with pleasure at work during the lunch break and not only :-)
    1. 0
      29 September 2016 10: 28
      Greetings, dear Valentine!
      Quote: Comrade
      this is widespread data, however, more accurate figures are available

      Thanks I'll know!:)
      Quote: Comrade
      Thank you, Andrey, for an interesting cycle.

      Thank you very much for the tips and help! hi
    2. 0
      29 September 2016 12: 08
      Quote: Comrade
      On July 28, the ship had a combat stock of coal, established even under Makarov - 1 tons.

      Under Makorov, the maximum load was set at ~ 1110 tons of coal.
      Or more, but with the unloading of other components.
      Quote: Comrade
      With more coal, the battleship could enter the raid only at the time of full water.

      You don't even understand why it was done. Amazing! Why then "conjecture"?
  13. +2
    29 September 2016 04: 27
    [quote = rjxtufh] Therefore, coal reserves before Tsushima were large. Very great. So much so that the ships of 2TOE were still doomed on the way to it. [/ Quote]
    How "large" were these "coal reserves"? And compared to what? Do not take it for work, Nikolai, give out specific numbers for specific ships, let's start with the first armored detachment.
    Not that I do not trust you, but simply other people who have read your application may consider you a liar. So, as Yakubovich used to say, the numbers are in the studio! Answer for your words if you can.

    [quote = rjxtufh] [quote = rurikovich] Alas, but overload, both construction and any, is the scourge of domestic shipbuilders. [/ Quote]
    This scourge is called incompetence. Total. Designers could not do the right calculations. [/ Quote]
    Kindly comment on, please, if you can, these data. The construction load of Mikasa amounted to 784 tons. For comparison, the corresponding indicator of the Eagle, according to the ship's ship engineer V.P. Kostenko, was 635 tons.

    All together, this gave the result that is known. Both on water and on land. [/ Quote]
    Nikolay, let it be known to you
    1. +1
      29 September 2016 04: 43
      So, as we see, Russian designers sometimes made more correct calculations than English ones.
      1. 0
        29 September 2016 12: 38
        Quote: Comrade
        So, as we see, Russian designers sometimes made more correct calculations than English ones.

        And again, juggling.
        Borodins can still be compared with the Cesarevich. His advantage was 207 tons.
        In addition, do not forget that these are replicas. And to compare replicas with the originals is not at all correct.
        If you need the originals, then take a closer look at Peresvet (1104 tons of overweight) or Oslyab (1734 tons of overweight).
        In addition, do not forget about the Glory, with its 899 t. Superiority and range in combat-ready state with an economical stroke of 10 knots ~ 1366 m.m. or 2530 km. They didn’t thin the armor there, so in TTX everything turned out not so beautiful. Or rather, it sucks.
        Here is Slava, this is the real "Borodino". More precisely, an illustration of what RI did with the hybrid French EBR (partially EBR1, partially EBR2) Tsarevich.
        Judging by the whole set of performance characteristics, a good "EBR of marine application" (for small bodies of water) came out. This is such a special category of ships bred in the Republic of Ingushetia. They bred especially densely in the Black Sea Fleet. Only it is not clear why they were needed in the Far East. Let me remind you that from PA to Vladik it was 1100 m.
    2. 0
      29 September 2016 12: 28
      Quote: Comrade
      How "large" were these "coal reserves"? And compared to what? Do not take it for work, Nikolai, give out specific numbers for specific ships, let's start with the first armored detachment.

      These figures are widely known (Diamond signal book) and I will not repeat.
      And stop calling me Nikolai. And if you still want, then call it "Nicholas III". Or, briefly, "your majesty". You don't care, but I will be pleased.
      Quote: Comrade
      The construction load of Mikasa was 784 tons.

      Actually 805 tons. Mikasa was actually disgusting (for the level of British docks) built. Worse than all Japanese EDBs. But what else could one expect from Vickers in those days? Yes, and structurally did not shine. So-so was the EDB, except perhaps won only by Asahi. And even that, because of the completely stupid project of the latter.
      And Hatsuse and Sikishima from Armstrong were really the best.
      Only Retvisan could compete with them IN THE PROJECT. But there, in fact, they saved on the weight of the armor, so Retvisan was weak even against Asahi. What did not stop him from being the most powerful EDB RIF.
      Quote: Comrade
      For comparison, a similar indicator of the "Eagle", according to the ship's ship engineer V.P. Kostenko, was 635 tons.

      And what about Kostenko here? There are quite official figures, yes, the constructive and construction load of Orel was 635 tons.
      But you are cunning.
      Because in reality it would have been much larger, but it was reduced, in places using less thick armor. Why EBR 1 class Orel (and the rest of Borodzhins too) formally ceased to be EBR 1 class. And he became, like almost all Russian "creations" of those times, do not understand what.
      In addition, you distort the fact that you do not indicate the final range of the ships. In Mikasa, taking into account the advantage, it amounted to ~ 5885 m.m. Or ~ 10900 km.
      At Orel, taking into account the advantage, it amounted to ~ 2440 m.m. Or ~ 4500 km.
      Did you notice any difference in numbers? What did the actual figures of the Eagle tell you? Really about nothing?
      1. +2
        30 September 2016 15: 54
        Quote: rjxtufh
        And stop calling me Nikolai. And if you still want, then call it "Nicholas III". Or, briefly, "your majesty". You don't care, but I will be pleased.

        So far, alas, you can only "Nicholas the Sixteenth". According to Senka and a hat
  14. +1
    29 September 2016 07: 04
    I’ll insert my 5 cents. The article describes in detail the problems with coal and the range of the Russian squadron. And at the same time, a dashed line through the entire history of the defense of Port Arthur mentions the almost uninterrupted presence of the main forces of the Japanese fleet. In particular, always, when the question arises of a breakthrough, there is an insuperable wall the danger of meeting the Japanese in full force.

    Attention to experts, a question! And how did the Japanese replenish coal reserves to hang out continuously in the vicinity of Port Arthur? In my understanding, they had to periodically go to the nearest base (where, by the way, did they have such a base?) To replenish supplies. Or overload coal in the sea? If they left, at least in turns, why ours did not try to reveal such a temporary weakening of the enemy squadron and attack at that time. If you replenished supplies at sea - why, again, intelligence did not try to determine the place and time of the refueling in order to attack at that very moment when the crews were busy loading, there would be a bunch of transports and other mess that did not contribute to the quick lead to battle with the Japanese.
    1. +1
      29 September 2016 09: 45
      Quote: Alex_59
      Attention to experts, a question! And how did the Japanese replenish coal reserves to hang out continuously in the vicinity of Port Arthur? In my understanding, they had to periodically go to the nearest base (where, by the way, did they have such a base?) To replenish supplies. Or overload coal in the sea? If they left, at least in turns, why ours did not try to reveal such a temporary weakening of the enemy squadron and attack at that time. If you replenished supplies at sea - why, again, intelligence did not try to determine the place and time of the refueling in order to attack at that very moment when the crews were busy loading, there would be a bunch of transports and other mess that did not contribute to the quick lead to battle with the Japanese.

      If you look at the nature of the fighting at Port Arthur, then it was convenient and practical to have the Japanese anchor amidst the nearby islands. And her possible location caused questions for Makarov, because he organized search exits by destroyers to search for such a place. The Japanese appeared too fast at Arthur when the squadron was planning to go to sea. Presumably this place was a group of islands, known today as the Chinese Miaodao archipelago and the Lugundao islands off the coast of the Liaodong Peninsula.
      Relatively close to Arthur - only within 2-3 hours of walking. Since the exit of the squadron did not take place at once, for several hours, and even then during the tide, then with developed reconnaissance and patrol, the main forces received information on time and could calmly appear when needed. The virtual absence of opposition on communications made it possible to calmly replenish coal and supplies. So such a place had a right to exist. Typhoons in those places are unknown and coal handling is not such a problem. I will repeat myself - Makarov wanted to find such a place, but the result was the death of "Guardian". So if you dream, then, hypothetically, of course, finding an anchorage and creating problems for such a basing for the Japanese, it would complicate Togo's life at times. And so calmly, without straining, they were nearby, like a noose around the neck ...
      Personally, my opinion, of course hi
      1. 0
        29 September 2016 12: 29
        The opinion is of course interesting !!! But the fact that not so far was such an excellent port as the Far One does not say anything to you? Where all equipment and mooring terminals were left intact. Well, about the fact that the Japanese arranged a bunch of coal stations in the district in order not to overload their EDB, I already wrote above. The search for a parking lot was doomed to failure initially in connection with the huge preponderance of the light forces of the YaIF
    2. +3
      29 September 2016 13: 56
      Quote: Alex_59
      Attention to experts, a question! And how did the Japanese replenish coal reserves to hang out continuously in the vicinity of Port Arthur?

      Dear Alex_59, they did not hang out :))) Togo had a base on the Elliot Islands - this is exactly next to Bizzvo. The Japanese fleet was based there, coal miners went there, there were floating workshops. Approximately 60-70 miles from Port Arthur
      1. +1
        29 September 2016 14: 54
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Togo had a base on the Elliot Islands - this is exactly next to Bizzyvo. The Japanese fleet was based there, coal miners went there, there were floating workshops.

        Yes, I looked on the map - they settled down comfortably for the basurman ... There is nothing to cover. Perhaps one could try to terrorize them there at night with destroyers. Or active mine productions. Although, again, the Yapes had more light forces. The task ... Only Ushakov or Nelson would have done it.

        Or else ... undercover intelligence in a Japanese base could save the situation. It would be possible to accurately determine the time when the enemy begins to replenish supplies and attack at that moment. But as I understand it, in those happy times there was no GRU and SVR, and therefore work with the local population was not carried out ... Sadness ...
        1. 0
          29 September 2016 17: 28
          Quote: Alex_59
          Perhaps one could try to terrorize them there at night with destroyers.

          So S.O. Makarov tried to find out where this secluded place is. And he sent detachments of destroyers in search and possible attacks. "Guarding" and died in one of such sorties. And the death of "Terrible" in the framework of the same search for the Japanese served as a catalyst for the exit of the squadron, in which Makarov died ...
          Personally, my opinion is that it was necessary to involve Novik to escort the destroyers. Its hundred and twenty would be a good help for destroyers, and speed was a guarantee of survival - none of the Japanese cruisers could catch up with it. But this is so, thinking out loud ...
          1. 0
            30 September 2016 11: 43
            Quote: Rurikovich
            to attract "Novik" to escort destroyers.

            Novik himself went out and for such searches (with destroyers). However, less than necessary, and indeed in a couple there was no one to attach to him. He’s a destroyer hybrid with a cruiser.
            1. 0
              30 September 2016 13: 05
              Novik is what was later called the Leader !!! But with the destroyers it was necessary to send him giving Bayan to cover !!!!
            2. 0
              30 September 2016 19: 57
              Quote: Retvizan
              Novik himself went out and for such searches (with destroyers). However, less than necessary, and indeed in a couple there was no one to attach to him. He’s a destroyer hybrid with a cruiser.

              I will not argue wink Moreover, in the Program "for the needs of the Far East", second-rank scouting cruisers (which were supposed to be during the construction of "Boyarin", "Novik", "Pearl
              "and" Izumrud ") were described as ships that perform the functions of close reconnaissance in the squadron, PROTECTING MINORALS from the enemy and SUPPORTING MINORALS during an enemy attack! The search was not sent to support this "Novik"? The speed allowed to do it. And, one might say, it was precisely the lack of support for light forces that was the primary reason for the death of "Guardian", "Terrible" and, therefore, one of the reasons for the death of S.O. After all, even Makarov himself most likely understood that with the enemy's possession of the sea and his tactical advantage, sending destroyers at least without long-range support is very fraught?
              Alas, most likely these questions will be unanswered ... winked
  15. +3
    29 September 2016 13: 38
    and yet we stubbornly slide in considering the problem to one almost unambiguous conclusion ... (almost according to V.I. Lenin) - the main problem was not at all in technology and not even in "wet pyroxylin" - namely, in the preparation system for l / with and management. Okay, Vitgeft has never been a naval commander, but after all, he was considered a good staff officer ... Why, during the entire period of "Arthur's sitting", not a single headquarters exercise was conducted? What prevented any development of events at least at the document level during this time? And we see only some kind of sluggish chatter without any justification ... I honestly did not pay attention to the fact that the battleships would not have had enough coal until Vladik ... but damn Vitgeft should have known this - because this is the first what begins the planning of any operation - the required outfit of forces and means is determined to complete the task ... This is all done at the document level. It cannot even be blamed on the lack of "combat experience" - it is simply a failure to comply with elementary regulations. In general, it's somehow completely sad ...
    1. 0
      29 September 2016 15: 07
      Quote: Taoist
      Why, during the entire period of "Arthur's sitting", not a single headquarters exercise was conducted?

      So staffers are peaceful, and there are military. V.K.Vitgeft was probably a peacetime staffer ... And then there is a war ... What kind of planning can be discussed what request lol
  16. +1
    30 September 2016 03: 07
    Quote: rjxtufh
    died as a result of a carefully designed and carried out mine operation. the "indecisive Witgeft", casting aside the canons that fettered him, conducted.

    This is a stupid fiction, refuted by two clicks of the fingers.
    1) In his report to Vice-Governor, Wittgeft wrote that the mine bank would be installed eight miles from Port Arthur.
    2) The commander of the "Amur" in a report to the head of the coastal defense detachment Loshchinsky wrote that, "Having come to the place indicated for mine setting, I decided to take advantage of the circumstances that favored me and put the mine can further".
    Conclusions.
    1. Ivanov went to the violation of the order, which directly follows from his report.
    2. If Ivanov had complied with the order of Wittgeft-Loshchinsky, then the Japanese battleships would not have been blown up.
    3rd. The "Witgeft Plan", on the existence of which you so insist, was untenable, since the battleships of the Japanese sailed more seaward. Ivanov understood this from the very beginning, but his superiors did not.
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Did the "barely crawl" run so far away from the Japanese linear forces that they didn't even catch up with him?
    In view of the complete futility of this lesson

    This means that the "Tsarevich", after leaving the battle, developed a course of over fifteen to sixteen knots. The Japanese saw this and broke off. Where did you get this information?

    Quote: rjxtufh
    Azuma was the fastest Japanese DBK. Its residual velocity at the beginning of the RNE is estimated at 20,5 nodes.

    How do you know that? Specify a specific source, please.

    Quote: rjxtufh
    I promised myself not to interfere with these "publications" anymore.

    But I really want to troll, but nowhere else. On "Tsushima" you will not roam, from the "Alternative History" they pushed out at will. That's...

    Quote: rjxtufh
    Can "someone from Chelyabinsk" cite as an example some other Russian / Soviet admiral of the 20th century, who achieved something similar? Not even like that, but at least 10% of the level of Admiral Witgeft?

    With your permission, this is Vice Admiral V.A. Kanin. Of the death of seven of the eleven destroyers of the X flotilla on November 10 (October 28 in the old style), of course, didn’t they hear about the 1916? there, one after the other, V-72, 75, 76, S-57, 58, 59 and G-90 died. Do you think these seven destroyers are equivalent to a tenth of two battleships?

    Quote: rjxtufh
    Actually, the Retwisan project was a project of Kramp, not the Russian side.

    It was a joint project.

    Quote: rjxtufh
    Well, of course. From the same PA mostly played the balalaika apparently.

    Not only that, he also disarmed ships with might and main and conferred at meetings. But he never found time to walk around the observation posts and see how close the Japanese were to Port Arthur. That is why he pointed out to Ivanov eight miles, the Amur commander had to correct this "jamb" without permission, going against the order.


    Quote: rjxtufh
    You apparently don’t even understand what the essence of that mine operation was. What is generally mined.

    So enlighten!
    Quote: rjxtufh
    To do this, you need to have a desire. But he is not.

    The drain is counted.

    Quote: rjxtufh
    Learn the armored ship device. And weight characteristics Peresvet including
    I give a hint, the ability to shoot cannons does not mean that the armored (and even armored) ship is in a combat-ready state.

    And what is the "combat-ready state" according to your version? Do their shells fly farther, or do the enemy ones bounce off the sides like rubber balls?

    Quote: rjxtufh
    As for Kuteynikov. What is this husband famous for?

    Google, as they say, to help.

    Quote: rjxtufh
    In any case, when giving estimates, I focus on the normative reduction in speed from the life of the ship.

    Be so kind as to answer, please, how do you know these "standards" for Russian and Japanese ships? Did you invent them yourself, or did you read them somewhere?
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Therefore, the advantage of Tsesarevich was 207 tons and the coal reserve in combat-ready condition was 1160 tons. And the advantage of Orel was 635 tons, and the coal reserve in the combat-ready state was 600 tons.

    Again, where did these numbers come from, from the finger or from the ceiling?
    Quote: rjxtufh
    Can you imagine what 1500 tons of coal is? I see that it is not. And your "sources", too.

    Here the question stands squarely - who to believe, how much coal was left in the coal pits of Peresvet? To you or to Colonel of the Corps of Naval Engineers, Kuteinikov N.N., who personally examined the battleship after the latter returned to Port Arthur.
    If you believe it, then again the cursed question arises - how do you know that there a) there was no 1 500 tons of coal and b) Then how much coal was left there and how do you know that?

    Quote: rjxtufh
    Under Makorov, the maximum load was set at ~ 1110 tons of coal

    For which particular battleships and how do you know this? Can you show the order of Makarov, or a link to it from the eyes of eyewitnesses?

    Quote: rjxtufh
    And again, juggling.

    In short, "Mikasa" had an overload exceeding that of "Eagle". What else is there to argue about?

    Quote: rjxtufh
    And stop calling me Nicholas

    Well, you yourself indicated this name when registering on the Tsushima website.
    1. 0
      30 September 2016 09: 21
      Comrade, there’s no one to talk to ... request If a person, by completeness of the hull, determines whether the cruiser is a fighter (?) Or a scout, then what common sense comments can be discussed wink
      1. 0
        30 September 2016 11: 52
        Quote: Rurikovich
        If a person, by completeness of the hull, determines whether the cruiser is a fighter (?) Or a scout, then what common sense comments can be discussed

        In fact, cruisers (and, in general, all other ships in the world), based on their purpose, SPECIALLY had different fullness of hull. Why, I will not explain to you. If you do not understand what the fullness of the body is, then you will not understand this either.
        1. +2
          30 September 2016 18: 23
          Quote: rjxtufh
          In fact, cruisers (and, in general, all other ships in the world), based on their purpose, SPECIALLY had different fullness of hull. Why, I will not explain to you. If you do not understand what the fullness of the body is, then you will not understand this either.

          Where can I understand the great thoughts of exceptional geniuses. What documents, confessions and memoirs are for them. Well they only believe their word wassat And if you believe About the smartest, it will turn out that "Varyag is a fighter cruiser in terms of body corpusality, although its completeness ratio is less than that of Askold. That is, Askold has more rapid contours than Varyag. But, if you believe you, he not a fighter cruiser, but a scout. belay request Despite the fact that all three cruisers - the Varangian, Askold and the Bogatyr carried exactly the same weapons - 12-152mm, 12-75mm. But the fighter is Varangian, and the rest are scouts !!! laughing
          Well, where are we to the extraordinary, we are so stupid and stupid that we don’t know how to read documents and don’t understand anything ... lol hi
          1. 0
            1 October 2016 07: 38
            Quote: Rurikovich
            And if you believe About the smartest, it will turn out that "Varyag is a fighter cruiser in terms of body corpusality, although its completeness ratio is less than that of Askold. That is, Askold has more rapid contours than Varyag. But, if you believe you, he not a fighter cruiser, but a scout.

            The completeness of Askold's corps (0.469) is LESS than the completeness of the Varangian corps (0,532). And precisely because the first was a reconnaissance cruiser, and the second, a fighter cruiser (trade).
            In addition, they had a slightly different composition of weapons.
            For comparison, the full body of the reconnaissance cruiser Bogatyr was 0,460. And the hospital cruiser (colonial cruiser) Diana, 0,504.
            I hope now there will be no inappropriate questions.
    2. 0
      30 September 2016 10: 03
      The problem, or rather one of the problems, of the Japanese "miracle cruisers" was the CMU. It could not be otherwise. How else to accommodate such an overbooking in such a limited displacement. As a result: a relieved, pampered CMU. On acceptance tests, they all of course showed the result that was needed.
      But in reality: the best walkers - the last pair barely held 18 knots, for a short time, for a long time - 17 knots. The Russian cruisers, after leaving Rurik, could not catch up. "Yakumo" in the battle in the Yellow Sea acted independently, because due to its low speed (short-17 knots, long-16 knots) could not interact with small cruisers. But she surpassed all "Azuma". A bad, low-quality assembly of cars was added. As a result, as writes in his work "Asama and others", Balakin. The Azuma is the slowest ship in the series. By the beginning of the war -16 knots for a short time, 15 knots for a long time.
      1. 0
        30 September 2016 12: 07
        Quote: ignoto
        But in reality: the best walkers - the last couple barely held 18 knots, for a short time, long-17 knots.

        I’m not going to argue with you about Pekingham’s ravings. I do not see the point. Moreover, there are several distortions there.
        An analysis of the rapprochement between the Japanese detachment and the Russian in the CP clearly indicates that the Japanese (Iwate, Izumo, Azuma, Tokiva) was moving at a speed of at least 19,5 knots. This, unlike Pekingham's ravings, is an indisputable fact.
        And then. Iwate, Izumo and Tokiva were from Armstrong. This must be realized and understood once. And then just remember. And never again to write about the weak CMU and other nonsense.
        Quote: ignoto
        Russian cruisers, after they left Rurik, could not catch up

        Bosh what.
        Quote: ignoto
        "Yakumo" in the battle in the Yellow Sea acted independently, because due to its low speed (short-17 knots, long-16 knots)

        Yakumo was from Vulcan. Therefore, its legal 19,5 knots during the REV issued easily and simply.
        Quote: ignoto
        But she surpassed all "Azuma". A bad, low-quality assembly of cars was added. As a result, as writes in his work "Asama and others", Balakin.

        Does Balalaikin write? This changes the matter, of course.
    3. +1
      30 September 2016 12: 49
      Quote: Comrade
      Ivanov understood this from the very beginning, but his superiors didn’t.

      Let's note the second "... from Chelyabinsk". Also nicherta does not understand the essence of that operation. But cheerfully sprinkles something about "cunning Ivanov".
      By the way, it should be noted that a fair amount of bureaucratic "smokescreen" was set up. This is understandable, the case could end in very serious troubles. And so, zealous D. rak-captain. What to take from him?
      Quote: Comrade
      On "Tsushima" you will not roam, from the "Alternative History" they pushed out at will. That's...

      I have no idea about such resources. Yes, and from here I plan to dump, boring, catastrophically few savvy yusers. Mostly "patriotic" and / or loud-mouthed. And if only there is no desire for a dog.
      Anyway, I'm more interested in small arms.
      Quote: Comrade
      there, one after the other, V-72, 75, 76, S-57, 58, 59 and G-90 died

      7 shells, this is also good. But these are completely third-rate ships. Not worth even a special mention.
      Quote: Comrade
      the Amur commander had to correct this "jamb" without permission, going against the order.

      Oh, these gallant commanders of minesigns for me. It seems that only "... from Chelyabinsk" can believe in their existence.
      Quote: Comrade
      And what is "combat-ready state" according to your version

      Read books (and my comment is a little higher). It is written there. In the books, more.
      Quote: Comrade
      how do you know these very "standards" for Russian and Japanese ships

      Generally on ships. And from where, so from there.
      Quote: Comrade
      Again, where did these numbers come from, from the finger or from the ceiling?

      Don't you even know basic things?
      Quote: Comrade
      Here the question is an edge - who to trust

      The question is whether there are brains in the head. If they are not there, then you can easily believe that 1500 tons of coal can be burned in a short yield. And if you have, then you will never believe it.
      And do not drag Kuteinikov, you never know what they’ll write on the Internet.
      Quote: Comrade
      For which particular battleships and how do you know this?

      All from the same camel. I won’t tell you. I do not want.
      Quote: Comrade
      In short, "Mikasa" had an overload exceeding that of "Eagle". What else is there to argue about?

      About the consequences, apparently. Due to the design and construction advantage, Mikas turned into an ordinary EBR1 with completely uninteresting performance characteristics. Strong yes. But far from outstanding. And even in the AIF is not the strongest.
      The eagle (and the other Russian Borodinians of the Tsushima series; Glory stands apart), due to the superiority, was facilitated by the thinning of the armor. Why formally fell out of the class of ships of linear battle. Protection for battleships was too weak in places. But this did not help either. in range of combat readiness, the ships of this series did not reach the EDB (even class 1). Those. it turned out that it’s not for linear combat and not for action on the ocean. However, IT was used precisely for linear combat and in the ocean. With now known results.
      That’s the whole difference of consequences.
      Quote: Comrade
      Well, you yourself indicated this name when registering on the Tsushima website.

      I already wrote about Tsushima a little higher in the same commentary.
      1. +2
        30 September 2016 18: 16
        Quote: rjxtufh
        And from here I plan to dump, boring, catastrophically few savvy users.

        Lord, more likely already ... winked
        1. 0
          1 October 2016 08: 11
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Lord, more likely already ...

          Do you want to continue to listen to gentlemen like "... from Chelyabinsk"? Look, turn into this yourself. If not already.
      2. 0
        3 October 2016 15: 58
        The eagle (and the other Russian Borodinians of the Tsushima series; Glory stands apart), due to the superiority, was facilitated by the thinning of the armor. Why formally fell out of the class of ships of linear battle. Protection for battleships was too weak in places. But this did not help either. in range of combat readiness, the ships of this series did not reach the EDB (even class 1). Those. it turned out that it’s not for linear combat and not for action on the ocean.
        .

        Someone's incomprehensible. About the width of the cruisers, depending on the destination, it is clear :-))))))))))))))))))))))), and here .....
        At first they designed, for example, "Eagle". Then they built it. Overload detected. Well, you can't find her before. The ship must be heeled, etc. This must be done in a very definite state (ie, load). And not even in one such state. That is, it is necessary to load and heel several times. Therefore, they removed the armor and then put it thinner. ????? So what ???
        As far as they have been writing in books all their lives, the battleships "Borodino" were immediately designed with thinned armor. Due to this, a battery of anti-mine guns was booked. Within the limits of the permitted displacement, nothing else worked anyway. And the Japanese were much larger.
        In general, in those days everything started to cost ships without having full drawings. Therefore, almost everyone suffered from overload. Even now, having all kinds of electronic designing is wrong. Example? The much-praised Superjet. 3 tons of extra.
        1. 0
          3 October 2016 16: 07
          Quote: mmaxx
          About the width of the cruisers, depending on the destination, it’s clear :-))))))))))))))))))))))))

          Apparently incomprehensible. Because it was about the completeness of the body, and not its width.
          Quote: mmaxx
          Then they built it. Overload detected.

          Found not when built, but also in the course of construction.
          Quote: mmaxx
          Therefore, they removed the armor and then put it thinner. ????? So what ???

          No.
          Quote: mmaxx
          As far as all their life they wrote in books, the battleships "Borodino" were immediately designed with thinned armor.

          Regarding Tsesarevich. And then, already during the construction, its thickness was also adjusted downward. Not all, of course, are several sections of the GP.
          Quote: mmaxx
          Within the permitted displacement

          Who is allowed?
          Quote: mmaxx
          In general, in those days everything started to cost ships without having full drawings.

          Really?
          Quote: mmaxx
          Therefore, almost everyone suffered from overload.

          The fact of the matter is that "almost". The products of serious firms were, of course, more expensive. But also more qualitative. Incl. and in terms of superiority.
  17. 0
    30 September 2016 04: 27
    Only the lazy did not kick Z. P. Rozhestvensky for the lack of a battle plan. But everything is known in comparison, let's see how V.K. Vitgeft, who some of the commentators write down in the most outstanding, successful and effective Russian admirals, was dealing with this matter.

    No comment, as they say.
    1. 0
      30 September 2016 12: 52
      Quote: Comrade
      No comment, as they say.

      Why, no comment?
      The commander brought to everyone the ultimate goal of the operation. And the fact that each team will give specific conditions.
      Everything is simple, clear and logical.
      What did you want? To from painted them all their steps in advance? So I recall, his last name was Wittgeft, not Nostradamus.
      1. 0
        30 September 2016 14: 08
        Do you even know how to write "battle orders"? Well, such a "trifle" as ensuring the control of the battle in the event of combat damage should also be provided for ... And here a pancake, even a general task is not set, and the commander who "knows everything" and will control sits in a chair under fire, clearly "running out" to take this secret to the grave ...
        1. 0
          1 October 2016 08: 16
          Quote: Taoist
          And then a pancake, even a general task is not set, and the commander who "knows everything" and will control sits in a chair under fire, clearly "running out" to take this secret to the grave ...

          The general task was known to everyone, this is a breakthrough in Vladik.
          And the fact that the commander died, so for this the younger flagship existed (Ukhtomsky).
          But gentlemen officers after the death of Vitgeft behaved like rats on a sinking ship. Those. fled in different directions under the slogan "save yourself, who can." In the wake of Peresvet was ONLY Victory.
          Those. in the battle in ZhM 1TOE was crushed to smithereens. And after that, it actually ceased to exist as a combat unit.
          1. +2
            1 October 2016 10: 24
            So that the squadron after the death of the flagship does not scatter who where and is prescribed (this is normal staff practice) the procedure for transferring command and each ship commander is given a personal "combat order" in which the disposition and actions for the main stages of the battle are also decoded and prescribed. And "to follow to Vladivostok" is not an order ... This is "like a wish" ... You seem to have not even served (or served urgently) - since you do not know the elementary things that go along the course of "tactics".
            Vitgeft did NOTHING at all of what he was obliged to do, even just by performing a bureaucratic procedure. The impression is that, anticipating his death, he simply "scored everything" - "burn it all with fire" ... Psychologically it is understandable but criminal.
  18. 0
    30 September 2016 06: 29
    About the fact that Cupid should put mines, it was decided at a meeting at Witgeft already on April 22 !!! So there can be no talk of any self-fulfilling Ivanov
    1. 0
      30 September 2016 09: 30
      Alexander, read the comments carefully wink No one disputes Witgeft’s permission to land mines .. The moral is that Ivanov ALWAYS set mines not where Witgeft allowed, but much further, on the real patrol routes of the Japanese fleet. And it was the violation of Witgeft’s order that led to the result hi
      1. 0
        30 September 2016 11: 29
        Yes there was no violation !!! As you do not understand !!! It was a decision to put mines on the course of passing the squadron !!! But the trouble was that the course took place in the neutral zone !!! The Japanese also do not recognize the laying of mines in the neutral zone !!! Yes, you have in my entire history find at least one acknowledgment document on mines exhibited in international waters !!!!
        1. +1
          30 September 2016 11: 48
          Quote: Nehist
          But the trouble was that the course took place in the neutral zone !!!

          Who cares? The area then is 3 miles. So at least 9 miles set as Vitgeft ordered, at least 11, still a violation
          1. 0
            30 September 2016 13: 12
            Andrei, I will explain to you once again as a person participating in the database !!! I myself wrote reports according to the order received !!! But the implementation was already my prerogative !!! I explain !!! What is stated in the report goes to the top !!! And the restrictions that exist in orders and instructions can easily be bypassed well, and with luck, like Ivanov, no one will ever ask him at all !!! But if some sort of neutral had been blown up on this mine bank, the commander of Amur would have become an extreme Ass! Sorry it's so rude, but it's just life facts.
            1. +2
              30 September 2016 16: 00
              Quote: Nehist
              Andrei, I will explain to you once again as a person participating in the database !!! I myself wrote reports according to the order received !!! But the implementation was already my prerogative !!! I explain !!! What is stated in the report goes to the top !!!

              I’ll tell you one simple thing now, only you calm down please.
              If, I emphasize, IF Wittgeft had ordered the laying of mines 11 miles away, but would not have wished to admit it, he would in no case have blamed Ivanov. He would have written the order - "put in 8 miles." Ivanov would have reported "put in 8 miles." The governor upstairs would receive a message - "put in 8 miles." ALL!
              And that the mines were 11 miles away - well, it’s very unfortunate that there was a mistake in the dead reckoning, there was such a fog at sea, and in general ...
              There is such a rule of Occam - "do not multiply entities beyond necessary"
            2. +1
              30 September 2016 18: 09
              Quote: Nehist
              But if some sort of neutral had been blown up on this mine bank, the commander of Amur would have become an extreme Ass!

              But he didn’t blow up wink People are not so dumb as to be where the war is going on, much less knowing that everything in the district is stuffed with mines. Any neutral that would stick there would not only be stopped and examined by the Japanese, but they would be confiscated if desired.
              Well, there are elementary things, why does it flow from empty to empty different neutral waters, international? request
              There was an order from Witgeft (permission) to put mines no further than 8 miles, the Japanese sailed at 11 miles, Ivanov put mines where he considered it necessary and correct, two armadillos blew up. Success. No one stuttered about any international and neutral waters there. What is the problem? Okay, you, Alexander, are more adequate, I hope you will understand, otherwise one appeared here (an untranslatable French curse), so explain to that - write against the wind. All the same, his taldychit ... lol hi
            3. 0
              1 October 2016 08: 28
              Quote: Rurikovich
              But he didn’t blow up

              Iron "argument".
              Quote: Rurikovich
              People are not so dumb as to be where the war is going on, much less knowing that everything in the district is stuffed with mines. Any neutral that would stick there would not only be stopped and examined by the Japanese, but they would be confiscated if desired.
              Well, there are elementary things, why does it flow from empty to empty different neutral waters, international?

              You don’t even imagine what international waters are during the war. And also what is international law. And how international waters differ from neutral during the war.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Ivanov put mines where he saw fit and right

              Enchanting nonsense.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              What's the problem?

              In international law, Alexander already wrote about this to you.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              and then there appeared (an untranslatable French curse) alone, so explain to that - that write against the wind. All the same, his taldychit ...

              Who will explain? You? What can you explain on this topic if you do not understand the elementary?
          2. 0
            30 September 2016 13: 13
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So at least 9 miles set as Vitgeft ordered, at least 11, still a violation

            Hint, there are neutral waters. And there are international ones. These are 2 big differences.
            1. 0
              30 September 2016 13: 26
              The difference is not significant, how to say it would be a desire !!! It will be a violation both this and that, but for some reason, until now, ships are being blown up by mines exhibited x ren knows when, rarely but it happens !!!
        2. 0
          30 September 2016 13: 12
          Quote: Nehist
          Yes, you have in my entire history find at least one acknowledgment document on mines exhibited in international waters !!!!

          Well, thank God. At least one not "... from Chelyabinsk" is available. Already good.
        3. 0
          30 September 2016 18: 14
          Quote: Nehist
          Yes there was no violation !!! As you do not understand !!! It was a decision to put mines on the course of passing the squadron !!! But the trouble was that the course took place in the neutral zone !!! The Japanese also do not recognize the laying of mines in the neutral zone !!! Yes, you have in my entire history find at least one acknowledgment document on mines exhibited in international waters !!!!

          So what's the fuss? That Ivanov put mines in neutral waters, violating Witgeft’s order to put no more than 8 miles? But the Japanese did not protest these productions. wink
          And do not contradict. It was a decision to put mines on the course of passing the squadron. But the course took 11 miles, and Wittheft’s order was set no further than 8. Don't you find this verbiage about the squadron course strange? wink
          1. 0
            1 October 2016 08: 42
            Quote: Rurikovich
            That Ivanov put mines in neutral waters

            Apparently it will never reach you where Ivanov actually set the mines.
      2. 0
        30 September 2016 12: 09
        Quote: Rurikovich
        The moral is that Ivanov INDEPENDENTly set mines not where Vitgeft permitted, but much further, on the real routes of patrolling the Japanese fleet. And it was the violation of Witgeft’s order that led to the result

        And the third "... from Chelyabinsk". He also does not understand anything about the essence of that operation.
        1. +2
          30 September 2016 17: 59
          Quote: rjxtufh
          And the third "... from Chelyabinsk". He also does not understand anything about the essence of that operation.

          "Dear", you have appointed me the second "from Chelyabinsk" wink what wassat
          A teperyaka that already moved the third? And the second then who? request
          They would have blamed it already from this resource ... As you plan. Then with more adequate people will have to communicate happily winked
          They painted on the fingers of the person who said where to put, who put there where he considered it necessary, they printed out meetings almost every second ... - but he’s all the same: everyone’s stupid, you don’t understand anything, Wittgeft is a genius from God, and the cruiser are divided into fighters and reconnaissance by the completeness of the hull ... fool
          ....... kapets. request
          1. +3
            30 September 2016 18: 42
            Never mind. The one with whom you are trying to communicate as an adequate person has long been known on historical (tsushima) and alternative historical Internet forums and has been expelled from them many times. Extreme arrogance towards others, peremptory and unsupported statements, when opponents cite facts - rolls into rudeness. We are obsessed with our personal theory of the classification of warships of that era, so if you read from him that "Rurik II" is a coastal defense battleship, do not be surprised, this is not a typo. Since he has no supporters and everyone laughs at him, he is embittered and ready for anything: once, on alternative history, he registered several nicknames and arranged "discussions" with himself in the comments - in support of himself, of course :)))
            In general, the other person.
            1. +1
              30 September 2016 19: 35
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The one with whom you are trying to communicate as an adequate person has long been known on historical (tsushima) and alternative historical Internet forums and has been expelled from them many times. Extreme arrogance towards others, peremptory and unsupported statements, when opponents cite facts, rolls into rudeness. We are obsessed with our personal theory of the classification of warships of that era, so if you read from him that "Rurik II" is a coastal defense battleship, do not be surprised, this is not a typo.

              Evo how, thank you so much, enlightened good drinks And then I already thought that indeed, given the equal characteristics of Novik and Boyarin, but at a higher speed for the first, which served as a prototype for a series of cruisers, Boyarin is declared almost ideal, and Novik is bullshit wassat
              Thanks again, I will pay less attention hi
            2. 0
              1 October 2016 08: 35
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The one you are trying to communicate with as an adequate person has long been known in historical (tsushima) and alternative historical Internet forums and has been expelled from them many times. Extreme arrogance towards others, peremptory and unsubstantiated statements, when opponents cite facts - rolls into rudeness.

              Enchanting. From beginning to end (not everything is copied into a quote).
              In the absence of arguments in your favor and due to poor knowledge of the topic, you have slipped to dousing your opponent with slops of your own production.
              Colossally. Go far ...
              I'm sorry there is no blacklist. Your place is only there.
            3. 0
              1 October 2016 08: 40
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Evo how, thank you so much, enlightened

              This "enlightener" will "enlighten" you more than once. And not only on a similar topic. So get ready.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              And then I already thought that indeed, given the equal characteristics of Novik and Boyarin, but at a higher speed for the first, which served as a prototype for a series of cruisers, Boyarin is declared almost ideal, and Novik is bullshit

              1. Novik and Boyarin had no "equal characteristics". These were ships for various purposes. You just don't know. As well as the vast majority of "popularizers of the topic".
              2. No one called a newcomer bullshit, do not invent how your spiritual guru does it.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Thanks again, I will pay less attention

              Do a favor, otherwise your illiterate remarks are already tired.
          2. 0
            1 October 2016 08: 32
            Quote: Rurikovich
            They painted on the fingers of the person who said where to put, who put there where he considered it necessary, they printed out meetings almost every second ... - but he’s all the same: everyone’s stupid, you don’t understand anything, Wittgeft is a genius from God, and the cruiser are divided into fighters and scouts by the completeness of the hull ... fool
            ....... kapets. request

            You are hopeless, perhaps. I correctly defined you as "... from Chelyabinsk."
  19. 0
    30 September 2016 11: 38
    rjxtufh,
    Oh well, don’t do so sharply that the trash is full !!! These first-class EDBs could not ditch 1 TEO as they could 2TE! Paradox?! I don’t think so. This junk as you put it had every chance to break into Vladivastok! (I just didn’t know what he would do there) Not all of course, of course, but I could, I’m tired of repeating it !!! There was no chance of a breakthrough with the whole mass !!!!
    1. 0
      30 September 2016 13: 01
      Quote: Nehist
      These first-class EDBs could not ditch 1 TEO as they could 2TE! Paradox?! I don’t think so.

      As part of the 1st TOE, there were already 2 (we will be condescending to Tsesarevich, although he was in a borderline state) EDB1, one old EDB1 and one EDB2. And only Peresvet and Sevastopol (and Petropavlovsk, but earlier) were not linear battle ships.
      In the composition of 2 and 3TOE, there was no EBR at all. But it was full of buckets of nuts, which were so called. Of course, the Japanese rolled these "buckets" into a nut in no time. Moreover, the position of 2 and 3TOE was complicated by the fact that these "buckets" were not brought into an operational state before Tsushima. And they had to fight in a traveling state.
      So, nothing unexpected happened under Tsushima.
      1. 0
        30 September 2016 13: 53
        I do not agree with you !!!! At least the EDB type Peresvet was not significantly inferior to the Japanese in terms of artillery and in terms of booking. Speed ​​... Well, here you can argue ... Although the construction of the EDB itself was disgusting
        1. 0
          30 September 2016 14: 04
          Quote: Nehist
          At least the EDB type Peresvet was not significantly inferior to the Japanese in terms of artillery and in terms of booking.

          "EBR Peresvet" were built as class 2 EBR. The first 2, Peresvet and Oslyabya, received weakened main battery artillery not at all the level of EBR (not shmogli, Kasuga, the Japanese DBK defender was about the same in ballistics). In addition, their booking was carried out with outdated armor. And the machine diagram, due to the lack of normal ship machines in Russia, was sloppy. Well, the quality of the building, of course. Therefore, Peresvet and Oslyabya did not actually appear for a single day.
          Later, the project was revised and Victory was built on it. He received artillery of the GC level of EBR2, as well as stronger protection. Although the cars and their layout remained the same, only the three-cylinder ones were replaced by the four-cylinder ones. In the aggregate performance characteristics, Pobeda was quite drawn to the old class 2 EDB. One of the three.
          1. 0
            30 September 2016 15: 57
            Wildly ringing wrong in the classification! I meant the EDB type of Poltava!
            1. 0
              1 October 2016 08: 49
              Quote: Nehist
              I meant the EDB type of Poltava!

              As old from the birth of EBR1, ONLY EBR Poltava was built. This is due to the use of modern imported armor and British cars.
              The armor of Sevastopol was also imported, but old, cheaper. The armor of Sevastopol was domestic (obsolete). Therefore, for protection (reservation), none of these ships from birth in the category of EDB actually did not fall. Which means that the EDB was not real.
              In addition, French cars of Russian assembly stood in Sevastopol. And at first there were problems with them.
              Perhaps it is worth noting that Poltava had a building defect in the geometry of the hull. From this, his speed was slightly less than expected, given the actual power of his cars.
  20. +1
    30 September 2016 11: 49
    Well described. Thanks to the author for analyzing coal. But I was still waiting for an assessment of the quality of coal (and this affects the volume of coal). In addition, coal pits were indeed not fully loaded on all ships. Maybe initially some "free" steps were taken on neutral ports. although..
    About the Barra rangefinders, too, about the fact that the Japanese had the latest model, although perhaps this was not done in the last part.
    Witgeft-the figure is ambiguous. Still waiting for the assessment of his headquarters (and there are also interesting personalities) during the battle, it is quite possible that their decisions and actions played more than the admiral himself.
    Threat, it is very interesting to read comments on the article. Thank you to all commentators.
    1. 0
      30 September 2016 16: 05
      Quote: Retvizan
      Not bad described. Thanks to the author for the analysis with coal.

      You're welcome!
      Quote: Retvizan
      But I was still waiting for an assessment of the quality of coal (and this affects the volume of coal)

      Alas, I do not know enough information about this.
      Quote: Retvizan
      Witgeft-the figure is ambiguous. Still waiting for the assessment of his headquarters (and there are also interesting personalities) during the battle, it is quite possible that their decisions and actions played more than the admiral himself.

      With headquarters - I don’t even know what to say. You see, all the same, we were not there, and it is rather difficult to understand what decisions were made by virtue of what.
  21. 0
    30 September 2016 13: 18
    rjxtufh,
    Here sdes with your comments I completely agree !!!!
  22. 0
    30 September 2016 13: 30
    Dear Andrey !!! Really Waiting for your article about the battle itself !!!! This is where it makes sense thoughtfully on discourse. Starting from the state of the ships to the analysis of the actions of their commanders!
  23. 0
    30 September 2016 19: 54
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk,
    I do not quite agree: "Probably, with the quality of the shells themselves" I doubt that different admirals had different countries. Various training of commanders, yes, but shells are unlikely. Indeed, the shells on the Arthur squadron were of better quality than on the 2nd squadron.
    By the way, I read somewhere that Japanese shells were not very different from Russian. Perhaps at Shirokorad or in some magazine, I don’t remember now
    1. 0
      30 September 2016 20: 14
      Read at least the cycle of the same Andrey from Chelyabinsk "Myths of Tsushima". There, it seems, it is written intelligibly about the shells smile
      1. 0
        1 October 2016 08: 51
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Read at least the cycle of the same Andrey from Chelyabinsk "Myths of Tsushima". There, it seems, it is written intelligibly about the shells

        I do not recommend reading verses of this "popularizer" in general. Only your eyes will spoil. And surely what you can't do is take them seriously.
        Although some interesting details can be gathered even in such "articles".
  24. +2
    1 October 2016 03: 02
    [quote = rjxtufh]It seems to me that only one of you does not yet know that an annoying shift of dates occurred during typographic copying while walking on the Internet signal book of Diamond. And the data supposedly on May 13 actually matches
    Old, a couple of years ago you said the same thing to me when this very screenshot was brought under your nose.

    [quote = rjxtufh]An analysis of the rapprochement between the Japanese detachment and the Russian in the CP clearly indicates that the Japanese (Iwate, Izumo, Azuma, Tokiva) was moving at a speed of at least 19,5 knots. This, unlike Pekingham's ravings, is an indisputable fact.. [/ Quote]
    So present your "analysis", give a full breakdown, how did you get such a figure?

    [quote = rjxtufh] Dand from here I plan to dump, bored, catastrophically few savvy users.[/ Quote]
    Stop it, you're not going anywhere. You were poisoned-poisoned with dust on "Alternative History", but you still appeared every time under the next disguise. Trolling is a very important component of your spiritual life for you, but where else can you troll and try to assert yourself at someone else's expense, if not here?

    [quote = rjxtufh]What did you want? To from painted them all their steps in advance?[/ Quote]
    I didn’t want anything, gentlemen the officers wanted what they wanted - see the screenshot.
    1. 0
      1 October 2016 08: 58
      Quote: Comrade
      Old, a couple of years ago you said the same thing to me when this very screenshot was brought under your nose.

      You know, I'm tired of you. I agree to Nicholas, but on condition that you call me "Your Majesty." Or "Sire", in the French manner.
      Not tired of you fooling around?
      Quote: Comrade
      So present your "analysis", give a full breakdown, how did you get such a figure?

      Send your bank details right now?
      What, you want to call me as you please, and in return I will throw off interesting and extremely rare information to you? Someone’s inadequate exchange is obtained.
      Quote: Comrade
      Stop it, you're not going anywhere. You were poisoned-poisoned with dust on "Alternative History", but you still appeared every time under the next disguise.

      Exactly. I wrote about this above.
      By the way, are you a clone of "Andrey from Chelyabinsk"? Painfully similar "charges" you have.
      Quote: Comrade
      gentlemen officers wanted what exactly they wanted

      Misters officers would be nice to not want to share. A Charter to study. There they would find for themselves a lot of interesting and new things. And maybe then in a battle in the LM 1TOE would not have been defeated.
      1. 0
        1 October 2016 11: 15
        and in return I will throw off interesting and extremely rare information to you?


        God bless her with information, enough of her own, I have one question for you "what characteristics or parameters do you use to classify ships." To be honest, it became interesting to me.
        1. +1
          1 October 2016 20: 22
          Quote: 27091965i
          I have one question for you: "What characteristics or parameters do you use to classify ships?"

          Those. how is it "what parameters"? Many. And it’s not me who classifies them, they were so classified during the period of their service. In normal fleets, of course. It was only in the RIF that such galoshes as Nicholas I, Petropavlovsk or Peresvet (or "Borodinians", for example) could be listed as EBR.
          And such a ship as the Varangian could be driven into Chemulpo for the role of a inpatient.
          And such a ship as Bogatyr could be used as a messenger boat.
          Etc. etc.
      2. 0
        1 October 2016 23: 53
        Quote: rjxtufh
        You know, I'm tired of you. I agree with Nicholas, but on condition that you call me "Sir", in the French manner.

        There is no such treatment in French. You live in France, but you don’t know.
        Quote: rjxtufh
        What, you want to call me as you please, and in return I will throw off interesting and extremely rare information to you?

        Not information, but "analysis" how you got 19,5 nodes.
        Quote: rjxtufh
        By the way, are you a clone of "Andrey from Chelyabinsk"? Painfully similar "charges" you have.

        I suggest we both go through a simple test, which of us is a liar and a demagogue. If you are uploading a fragment from the Almaz signal book with information that differs from the one presented to you by Andrey just now, yours took it. Everyone can see that yes, indeed, there was a typo, and the dates were shifted. I can only repent and apologize. Yes, a link to a picture on the Internet is required. You yourself said that such a "walks in the internet", therefore, it will not be difficult for you.
        Well, if you do not present such a page from the "Almaz" signal book, then you have not passed this test.
        The funny thing is right now, you will keep silent in response to this offer, or reject it under any pretext.
        1. 0
          2 October 2016 09: 02
          Quote: Comrade
          There is no such treatment in French.

          It was. Was this necessary to clarify?
          Quote: Comrade
          Not information, but "analysis" how you got 19,5 nodes.

          What kind of analysis can there be? Elementary geometry.
          The funny thing is that the speed of the ships can be easily calculated from the "source" of the description of this battle. But no one bothers with it for some reason.
          So you do it at your leisure. And I will not help you. I do not want.
          Quote: Comrade
          then you have not passed this test.

          My dear, I’m not going to give you anything out of principle.
          He’s going to test me here, damn it. The tester was found.
          1. 0
            2 October 2016 15: 46
            Quote: rjxtufh
            I'm not going to provide you with the principle.

            You simply have nothing to present for everyone to see, everything is in order in the signal book of "Almaz", so you are a liar, caught red-handed, back to the wall.
            1. 0
              3 October 2016 01: 49
              Quote: Comrade
              everything is in order in the signal book of "Almaz", so you are a liar, caught red-handed, back to the wall.

              My dear, if you could understand what was read in Russian, then in my commentary on it below (look there yourself below, I’m too lazy to look, but if you insist, I’ll give you even the comment time and time) you would read exactly the same .
              Therefore, you are actually a forger, a liar and a blind man. In one bottle.
  25. 0
    1 October 2016 03: 35
    Quote: Retvizan
    But I was still waiting for an assessment of the quality of coal (and this affects the volume of coal)

    There is something about some battleships. A cardif of ordinary quality was loaded on "Peresvet", for the selected coal and coal briquettes in the fortress were in limited quantities, which were allocated exclusively for destroyers. The "Retvizan" also had charcoal, not selected, but very good. The "Tsesarevich" was given an ordinary cardif, despite the request of the battleship commander from the port commander.
    The above data on the grades of coal loaded on the battleships on the eve of the squadron's exit were taken from the officers' reports, and from the same data on the consumption of coal on the "Tsesarevich".
    In general, the squadron allocated the best of what was available to large surface ships. As you know, in the warehouses there was a significant amount of coal from old reserves, weathered and with an admixture of land and garbage.
    1. 0
      2 October 2016 23: 03
      Quote: Comrade
      The "Retvizan" also had charcoal, not selected, but very good. The "Tsesarevich" was given an ordinary cardif, despite the request of the battleship commander from the port commander.

      This is the whole trouble. Everyone is inclined to think that the matter is in shells, speed on projects and in general. And the devil is in the details as always. Both steam installations and coal strongly influenced generally speed and the rise of steam throughout the TOE1 (and indeed a lot of places). There were many complaints about the quality of Cardiff, and coal itself in general (] Cardiff. A low-ash grade of coal with high heat of combustion, suitable for capricious water-tube boilers of warships of the beginning of the 20th century)
      Old men like “Korean”, “Dmitry Donskoy” or “Fuso”, with fire tube boilers, could well walk on Sakhalin and Japanese coal, and just on wood but ... For modern armadillos and cruisers, take out and put 1000 tons of regular coal on bunkering for going on a military campaign. Garbage coal new boilers agree to eat only in the parking lot and at low speed, when enough and low vapor pressure. Cardiff was not mined either in Japan or in the Russian Far East. So the belligerents had to suffer with the purchase and delivery of strategically important fuel.
      Quote: Comrade
      In general, the squadron allocated the best of what was available to large surface ships. As you know, in the warehouses there was a significant amount of coal from old reserves, weathered and with an admixture of land and garbage.

      At the same time, the Japanese had huge reserves of Cardiff coal - smokeless (according to some sources)
      In this most complex matter, one could rely only on Russia-friendly countries. Of course, the first to remember the main European ally - France. Paris did not want the Baltic Fleet to evade the direct obligation to restrain Germany, but the French, masters of the world empire, could not completely refuse Russia. It was agreed that in French ports 50 Russian warships would receive coal - but only until the next port.
      The German Kaiser agreed to provide assistance - the further the Russian armed forces are from the German borders, the more the Russian-French Union will depreciate, the more untied the hands of the European giant - Germany. Let Russia fight as long as possible, they should help in this. There were few German bases along the way, but Berlin acted truly in a friendly manner. The German leadership with German practicality instructed Hamburg-America to create 60 refueling vessels en route from Libau to Port Arthur. The meeting points for the tankers with the slow-moving Russian fleet (outside the three-mile band of inland waters) were clearly marked - this was the most real help. Calculations were made: for every thousand nautical miles 17 thousand tons of coal are needed, and it is absolutely necessary to provide the fleet with coal by the time the fleet meets the ships of Togo (this is for TOE2).
      In general, the nutrition squadron that the Japanese that the Russians differed in quality.
      So the "coal problem" of the Russian fleet is no worse than the shell problem.
      It’s clear why destroyers received the best quality (speed above all)
      But for a breakthrough, it would be nice for the port to supply all battleships with a "torpedo reserve". An extra knot when maneuvering was worth all the shells and armor!
  26. +1
    2 October 2016 00: 09
    Quote: 27091965i
    and in return I will throw off interesting and extremely rare information to you?


    God bless her with information, enough of her own, I have one question for you "what characteristics or parameters do you use to classify ships." To be honest, it became interesting to me.

    According to this "classification", "Sisoy the Great", quote, "not very strong slow-moving DBK, but with artillery of the main gun of the level of the EDB 2 class. In other words, the slow-moving BBR".
    1. 0
      2 October 2016 10: 43
      Quote: Comrade
      According to this "classification", "Sisoy the Great", the quote, "not a very strong low-speed DBK, but with artillery of the main battery of the level of EBR class 2. In other words, a low-speed BBR."

      Yeah, hydrofoil destroyer.
      In fact, Comrade, it was a very real classification of the cruisers of those years. You heard a ringing somewhere, but did not understand what it was about.
      As for Sisoy. In fact, Sisoy in fact was ... hard to say what. His problem was that, due to the disgusting quality of design and construction, it was impossible to bring him into optimal combat-ready condition in principle. Even without coal, its total displacement (the maximum possible to maintain a fully operational state) was 120 tons more than the norm. And this is superfluous sediment, of course.
      When loading coal, things got worse. Those. when fully loaded with coal (975 tons), the ship actually lost protection over the overhead line in the form of GP (went into the water) completely, remaining protected only by a short 46,3 m long VP (83,5 m full-length GP). At the same time, the thickness of the VP was 127 mm campunda, which in translation to type I krupps was something about 71 mm. Those. simply speaking the Russian language, nothing.
      Separately, it should be noted kutsey booking a ship above the GP. Slightly weaker than Yakumo, but slightly more than that of Azumo. Those. DBK level, no more.
      But the GK guns were although weaker than the Japanese (and British), but at a distance of no more than 35-40 kbt, the guns of the level of EDB of class 1 were completely pulled. Further, in terms of their performance characteristics, they fell already into guns of the level of EDB class 2.
      Based on all this, Sisoy was actually a large seaworthy and armored gunboat (not even BrBO), i.e. a ship with powerful weapons with a virtual lack of protection. Let me remind you that gunboats were intended mainly for shelling enemy territory. And opposition from him was not supposed. Or supposed, but minimal.
      Under Tsushima, the coal reserve at Sisoy was about 620 tons. + 120 tons of design and construction overload. Total total overload (excluding operational, and from the descriptions we know that it was on 2TOE ships) amounted to about 740 tons. Or something about 50 cm GP, immersed in water above the maximum possible design level (the total height of the GP was 2,14 m). Those. under Tsushima Sisoy was as if without a GP, which was under water.
      But even if he were pulled in tow and he would have been completely without coal, then the thickness of his GP (305 mm campound at the ends of the citadel) was approximately equal to 171 mm of type I group. This is practically nothing, at the level of such ancient "monsters" as Nicholas I and Alexander II. For the armored ships of the YaIF (including the DBK), these figures are much higher, with the exception of the old Asama and Tokiwa.
      This is so, briefly, about Sisoy. It is clearly seen that it really was for "EBR".
      And so you can "decompose" all the RIF battleships participating in Tsushima.
  27. +2
    19 December 2016 16: 12
    there was a beating of the fleet ... but the battle ... no, I didn’t hear it!
    1. +2
      19 December 2016 16: 24
      read at your leisure.