The Battle of Ore is another of the “unknown battles”

Remember the song from the “White Sun of the Desert” - “for whom are you kind, and to whom is it otherwise ...”? And although in this case we are talking about “Mrs. Luck”, in a similar way one could say about our entire history. To one she turns a smiling face, and often completely undeservedly, and to another a completely different part of the body, although, in theory, those who got the “wrong side” of her grace, as well as historical events, deserve much more.

The Battle of Ore is another of the “unknown battles”

The Battle of Oura from the Chronicles of Jean Froissart, 1410, the Paris National Library.

Well, let's say, such examples: who first baptized Russia and even received the title of “First Baptist”? Prince Askold! And what about him known to the overwhelming majority? That he was killed by Prince Oleg (that he was a nasty pagan, not even everyone knows), because he, Askold, was not of a princely family! And for some reason, Askold is not canonized, but those who worshiped pagans, honoring state interests in the first place, and faith (and their immortal soul!) Only in the second, are canonized.

Another miniature from the Chronicles of Froissart, 1410 of the year, showing warriors in their typical weapons.

And the battles in which the fate of the country was decided? Here, for example, the battle of Omovzhe or the battle of Embach (if you use the German name of the river), it is not in school textbooks, and yet this is a very interesting and important battle of the Russian troops with the crusaders of the Baltic states. Then, in 1234, Prince Yaroslav came along with his “lower regiments” and Novgorod and invaded the possession of the Order of the Sword, not far from the city of Yuriev, but the city did not besiege.

Miniature from the Chronicles of Saint-Denis. The same time and exactly the same equipment: helmets, bascinet with visor type “dog muzzle”, and the torsos are covered with quilted gambesons. British Library.

The chronicle says: “Ida Prince Yaroslav on Nemtsy near Yuriev, and a hundred did not reach the city ... Prince Yaroslav bisha them ... on the river on the Omizhe Nemtsy broke off” (PSRL, IV, 30, 178) from the town of Bear Head, located in 40 km, but at the same time they were broken. Some of the knights managed to go back beyond the fortress walls, while another part, pursued by Russian horsemen, entered the ice of the Emaygi River, collapsed and sank. Among those who died there, the chronicle calls “the best of Nѣmtsov nѣkolico and nizovets (that is, the soldiers of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality) nѣkolico. The Novgorod chronicle reports that “worship Nѣmtsi to the prince, while Yaroslav took the world with all their truths with them”. For some reason, is this battle in our history unpopular? Maybe because the prince "came himself", the invasion of the Germans did not wait? In general, we have a lot of events that seem to be the way they are, but almost nobody knows about them.

Knight 1350 g. Graham Türner's drawing on miniatures of that time.

However, not only our national history was not lucky here. For example, everyone knows such “key” battles of the well-known Hundred Years War, like the battles of Crécy and Poitiers, which unequivocally proved the power of the English “big bow” and ... the inability of French knighthood to adapt quickly in new conditions. However, there are much more such “key” battles, if we look, only one is well known to us, but for some reason there are no others.

Meanwhile, one of these battles between the troops of England and France took place near the city of Åre 29 September 1364. Moreover, although this battle is one of the battles of the Hundred Years War, it also refers to the battles of the war for the Breton inheritance or the “war of two Jeanne” that took place in 1341 — 1364, that is, it was such a “small war” which was part of the "big"!

Battle of Ore. Another medieval miniature, clearly showing all the features of the then knightly weapons and combat techniques of warfare. As you see, both short spears, swords, and daggers of the rondel type, which finish the defeated, are used in the course.

It all started as trite, as many feudal wars began: in 1341, Duke Jean III of Breton died, leaving no heirs and, moreover, without irresponsible telling the name of his successor, although he had the opportunity. But ... so he was in a hurry to appear before the eyes of the Lord, that he did not bother himself with the question of succession, leaving his duchy in the most difficult situation of dual power. Two Jeanne - Jeanne de Pentevr (or Jeanne the Lame) and Jeanne of Flanders began to challenge each other the right to the duchy, and in the end so finished their husbands: Jean de Montfort and Carl de Blois, that they decided to lay claim to this duchy. And since England and France at that time were in a state of war that began in 1337, both began to look for allies. Jean de Montfort took the oath of oath to the English Edward III, who declared himself king of France, but Carl de Blois decided that he could not find an ally more profitable than his own uncle, and brought hoop to Philip VI.

Capture of Jean de Montfort.

In 1341, the French managed to capture Jean de Montfort and surrender the duchy to Charles de Blois, Jeanne of Flanders went mad with grief, but in 1342 King Edward III landed with troops in Brest, as a result of which in 1343 the parties entered into a truce. But the balance of power was fragile, constantly disturbed, and it all ended with the fact that the peace negotiations in 1364 ended in failure, after which the British troops, led by the Duke of Breton, Jean V the Valiant, entered the city of Auray and besieged his castle, which was also blocked from the sea english fleet. The besieged had a shortage of food and were ready to capitulate on September 29, provided that they did not receive help until that day. That is, nobody wanted to climb the walls and spill their blood once again. Like, you wait, and we will surrender, if help does not come, and if it does, then we will fight - a kind of medieval reasoning, right ?!

Battle of Åre: Bretons on the right (Brittany coat of arms on the plate), on the left the French.

Meanwhile, already on September 27, the troops of Charles de Blois were located near the abbey, not far from the city. The next day, French troops crossed over to the left bank of the river and took up a position opposite the city’s castle. Duke Jean, fearing a double strike, with his troops out of the city and located them on the right bank of the river. And then between the warring parties began ... negotiations, the essence of which was reduced to finding out which of the dukes should leave the city and why.

Battle of Ore. Miniature by Pierre Le Baux.

However, on September 29 it became clear that neither side nor the other side were going to give in to the enemy, after which the French troops crossed the river a second time and stood up front north of the castle. At the same time, they took a very unfortunate position, since they found themselves on a swampy plain. British troops also took a position opposite, and stood up, waiting for the attack of the French.

Battle of Ore. Miniature of Jean Cuvillier ca.1400. They all considered themselves Bretons ...

Like many battles of the Hundred Years War, the British put in front of their line of archers, and the French - crossbowmen. A skirmish began between them, but she had no particular result, and then the French knightly cavalry went on the attack on the British. Interestingly, the French launched several attacks, one after the other, but the British repulsed them all. At the most critical moment, the situation was saved by a reserve, prudently left by Jean and plugged a “hole” punched in his positions by the knights. And the chroniclers say that the battle was simply incredibly fierce for the time character, so fierce that they did not take prisoners from either side. Then, noticing that the French were tired, the British counterattacked them on the right flank. The French could not stand it and ran, but seeing that the left flank was running, the right fled after him, too! Duke Carl de Blois was wounded by a spear, fell from his horse, and was finished off by some English warrior. The British victory was more than complete and put an end to the war for the Breton inheritance. In 1365, the first Treaty of Gerand was concluded, according to which Jean IV of Breton, in turn signing the union treaty with England, became the legal heir.

Battle of Ore. Stained glass window in the Basilica of Notre-Dame de Bonn in Rennes.
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  1. +2
    26 September 2016 06: 35
    So many battles, so many glorious feats, and all this has become the property of historians, and how many battles and feats are generally unknown to anyone else. Thank you for reminding historical events, but still I want more about the history of RUSSIA, because so many glorious and heroic events and heroes without any * stretch * were the history of RUSSIA-RUSSIA.
    Europeans write so much to themselves that they already believe that only in Europe there were historical events, and in other parts of the world so, all sorts of misunderstandings, not history. I had to read such * opus *.
    1. 0
      26 September 2016 07: 35
      As for Russia, this is to Samsonov ... As for the Europeans ... I don't know how many of their history books I have not read, including ours, I did not find any exaggeration. He himself wrote 4 books in English for them. and there was no "stretch" either. Maybe we know about different Europeans?
  2. PKK
    26 September 2016 07: 31
    Take it easy Vyacheslav, about the "pagans", they worshiped the Sun, they used energy-informational practice in the essence of Nature, Christianity, which was not invented for specific purposes.
    And that not a word that any fuss in Europe could occur only with the command of the Tsar of Russia. Each European prince knew his place.
    1. +5
      26 September 2016 07: 36
      I see the autumn aggravation is making itself felt. This is necessary ... "Tsar of Russia". What is this? Ivan the 3rd? So he ruled later!
      And as for the pagans ... Well, they enjoyed support ... and something she did not hurt them, huh? Fucking support from nature, as I look.
      1. +4
        26 September 2016 09: 12
        Once, I told one pagan about the hellish support of all kinds of hemp like perun and a bunch of other gods with their energy-information fields and other occult nonsense, so he answered me that the priests were messed up! And he answered ... Like: the priests were knocked and that’s it. Do not quibble.
        1. +2
          26 September 2016 09: 14
          He knows better ... Himself such, probably.
      2. +9
        26 September 2016 14: 19
        You would really be easier, otherwise, as if Perunov's arrow did not stab wherever it was. :) But seriously, about the "shitty support": the Khazar Jewish yoke was thrown down precisely during the times of the so-called "paganism" by you, by the "infidels" from the squad of Svyatoslav Igorevich, by those ordinary Russian guys who grew up with him in a young squad, yes Novgorod / Varangian "warriors of Perun". And against the influence of the Khazar Kaganate, even the Caliphate and Byzantium had a thin gut. Any "spring aggravation" is powerless against this assessment, except that complete mental retardation will turn into rejection. As for the dark "pagan" cults, it was the Varangians-mercenaries of the unforgettable Vladimir who did it, and he sharply ascended into the saints from a robber-fratricide and a traitor to his father's cause. Naturally, he ascended with excuses from Christian priests, a decisive part of whom at that time and for 200 years were Romans. I do not mean to nail the nowadays little known Vedic culture onto banners, and not to denigrate Byzantine Christianity. How it happened, it happened. Only here it is not necessary to trample on one's own, indiscriminately - it is fraught with trouble in the end, especially in an individual.
    2. +3
      26 September 2016 09: 37
      As far as I remember, according to Gumilev (you can treat him differently, but he also comes across ripe seeds), Christianity came for a reason. Roughly speaking, by that time there was already a crisis of paganism in Russia. It was not even very popular among the people, especially among the people of Kiev. And no one wanted to become the next human victim to the same Perun (there was a bloody incident with two Varangians). In addition, beliefs differed from place to place. I heard the opinion that Vladimir's first attempt was to create a kind of pantheon of "gods" (roughly speaking, to accept a "single list"), then Christianity. Undoubtedly, the political aspects played a huge role in the adoption of Christianity, but the fact that at that time it was necessary to “do something” with paganism is beyond doubt. If I write nonsense, please forgive generously wink
      1. 0
        26 September 2016 11: 04
        Yes, no, you write everything correctly.
        1. 0
          26 September 2016 11: 23
          I try)). Gumilyov wrote beautifully, and, describing the event in Russia, he gave examples from contemporary European and Eastern affairs to this event to give a complete picture.
          Just now it was a sinful thing to find your last year's article about "Makarevich, his words about nomads, and about medieval etiquette", laughed for a long time. Somehow you really don’t think about such intricacies of medieval European life.))
          Waiting for new articles! with respect, hi
      2. +4
        26 September 2016 11: 23
        I do not quite understand which king we are talking about? Something tells me that the tsars in Russia later wound up wink Well, what about the baptism of Rus due to the "non-popularity of paganism", here I would have looked closely at the persistence of holidays and folk customs, many of which only the Soviet government was able to exterminate and then not completely. Kupala holidays and Christmas divination are direct echoes of pagan rites. The squeezing out of the old religion by the new religion onto the periphery of folk holidays and superstitions is an objective historical process. In fact, the only country where two absolutely seemingly incompatible religions coexist organically at the national level is Japan, but this is rather the specificity of Buddhism's tolerance, since it is in Buddhist countries that there is such a peaceful neighborhood with ancient local cults. In general, taking into account the common Aryan roots, as an illustration of pre-Christian Russia, I would look at India, in fact, the last country with a pagan world order, there is a common pantheon of Vedic gods and, in addition, each village has a personal god.
        1. 0
          26 September 2016 11: 32
          I heard the opinion that in the domestic consciousness in paganism, the main ones were not even the gods, but a trifle - kikimors, brownies, goblin, water. Here they are firmly registered in the people's brain and everyday life. And the gods sometimes demanded bloody sacrifices. Therefore, they were "weeded out" through the filter of the people's consciousness))
          By the way, there is nothing surprising in the mixture of paganism and Christianity - this is among all peoples. And in Christian Europe, for example, gnomes are also popular characters. In Scandinavia - trolls. Rummaging, so in any country you can find both Christian (Muslim, traditions also differ in each country) values, and elements of paganism.
          Japan is a separate conversation. Even Oda Nobunaga said: "in case of disobedience, let the gods and Buddha will punish the disobedient. "I think we will wait for articles on this topic))
          1. -1
            26 September 2016 12: 01
            The confusion of Orthodoxy with paganism occurs only within the framework of near-church grandmothers and those who have heard about Orthodoxy from the same grandmothers.
            Neither bathed nor holy divination and other superstitious agony in Orthodoxy NO.
            1. +7
              26 September 2016 12: 30
              In Orthodoxy, no. I do not argue, but in the popular mind there is. Well, or it was if you so pleased. Speaking of mixing. Being on Yamal I saw an entertaining picture at a local camp, the priests who were there about a year before that put up a cross of such a small, not 5 meters high. Well, they baptized a family of reindeer herders. So these reindeer herders painted the cross with yellow paint, not because of the gold, but the color of the sun means the cross is even more sacred, well, the horns of sacrificial deer were nailed to him, so that the power of the victims means passed to him. Which tells me that at the time of the Christianization of Russia with Orthodoxy, similar metamorphoses occurred in folk culture.
          2. +3
            26 September 2016 12: 10
            I do not agree that the basis of popular paganism was a trifle, let us remember that the cult of Veles survived Christianization, in his hypostatism of the cattle god they worshiped long after baptism. Vladimir did not demolish his idol at baptism. And I think, again, for political reasons, Veles was the people's god, and Perun was also a princely druzhina. Why bother the people once again. All the same, it seems to me that the issue of baptism was rather political, both externally and internally, and resolved independently of the ecclesiastical fabulous "choice of faith according to the beauty of the rite" by Vladimir. It was not for nothing that I cited India as an example. The Supreme Indian pantheon is essentially Aryan, that is, it is similar to the ancient Slavic. Well, tell me how to govern the country in such a mess.
            1. 0
              26 September 2016 13: 06
              according to Gumilev, Perun was not only a princely squad (god of the Rus). He was not our god, he came from Lithuania (they have Perkunas), which, coupled with human sacrifices, did not make him popular. I'm not talking about the fact that the decision to baptize Russia was not political (it's like finding a common national idea for a prince who didn't have very many rights to the throne and had - in fact, a funky move). It's just that by this time the moment had already come that it was "impossible to be pagans" because of many factors, including the popular opinion (at least of a part of the people, the people of Kiev).
              1. +2
                26 September 2016 13: 40
                It is difficult to judge where and where which god came, the pantheon of pagan gods is very uniformly repeated throughout Europe from Greece to Scandinavia. Well, the names are different, but the functionality and hierarchy quite accurately copy each other. Here it is possible to breed different theories from tribal mixes and borrowings of less developed cultures from more developed antique or more warlike Scandinavian cultures to the assumption that all these variations came from the same source and were adapted to local needs.
          3. 0
            26 September 2016 13: 18
            Mandatory !!!
      3. +1
        26 September 2016 13: 40
        and the pagan camp was rapidly melting away - Russia was surrounded by Christian, Muslim and Jewish countries at the time in the 10th century. It was necessary to choose with whom to build our relations, with whom and against whom to be friends - otherwise you would be alone against everyone. But for the pagan, the question of religion was not so much moral as one of the few ways of self-identification, and the Christian god was just one of the gods, who was clearly stronger than the pagan gods - it was enough to look at the wealth of Byzantium and Rome. So the Old Russian princes faced a purely pragmatic choice for whom it was more expensive to sell their faith.
    3. -1
      26 September 2016 15: 16
      in general, the transition from Vedicism to Christianity was unlikely in the 9-11th century, as TI interprets. In Russian culture, the memory of OLD OLDERS remains, Old Believers are followers of the old faith i.e. Vedic, called Christian - pagan. The Christians appropriated the definition of ORTHODOXISTS, it is believed that Orthodoxy is from the Vedic RIGHT. And a Christian coup took place, thought during the time of Tsar Alexei and before Peter. The writings were rewritten, images were shot down at the temples or remade for a new Christian meaning.
      There are OLD WOMEN-these are the schismatics Christians and sectarians the Russian Orthodox Church fought with them until the 20th century.
      1. 0
        27 September 2016 06: 19
        Have you copied all the chronicles? Is that all?
        1. 0
          27 September 2016 08: 03
          Quote: kalibr
          Have you copied all the chronicles? Is that all?

          Well, why should Peter and his Christian consistory leave the Russians a Russian culture? When Peter replaced ALL RUSSIAN, even banned the use of Russian clothing, even the organs were declared not Russian, Peter forbade the use of the Russian language in the chamber of commerce, in the army, in the Academy of Sciences i.e. in Russia, a complete bacchanalia took place. By ruling the nobility, the boyars were completely destroyed. The meaning of the words, sedition, Port was replaced, for some reason they became trousers, Tartaria rolled into tartarara, they began to sculpt from the Horde that it was unattractive using fictitious artificial words because mess, leapfrog, mess, muzzle. Therefore, leaving the Russian history in the form of Russian chronicles was certainly inappropriate.
          However, such annals as Nikonovskaya and Lavrentievskaya can already be rejected for the reason that they describe the Tatar-Mongol yoke, and the Tatar Mongol yoke is a made-up fact of our history and do not withstand any criticism.
          1. +1
            20 January 2017 20: 46
            Quote: Thought
            When Peter replaced ALL Russian

            Well, yes, and Peter himself in addition

      2. +2
        20 January 2017 20: 36
        Where do you come from ...

        Is it true that Orthodoxy has no relation to Christianity, but is the pre-Christian faith of the Slavs? Did Nikon replace faith in Orthodoxy? What did the Byzantine monk Belisarius write about the Slavs in 532? Is the word "Orthodoxy" deciphered as a glorification of the Law?
  3. +1
    26 September 2016 07: 44
    They wanted to canonize the Duke of Charles de Blois for his piety, but Jean V Valiant opposed this, the process was stopped. As a result, Charles of Blois was canonized only in 1904.
  4. +2
    26 September 2016 09: 35
    Well, yes. They didn’t take prisoners, but du Haecklen was still captured. However, he was against the battle
  5. PKK
    26 September 2016 10: 38
    Quote: Mikado
    come across), Christianity came for a reason. Roughly speaking, by that time there was already a crisis of paganism in Russia. It was not even very popular among the people, especially among the people of Kiev. And no one wanted to become the next human victim to the same Perun (there was a bloody incident with two Vikings). In addition, beliefs differed from locality to locality. I heard

    Something you guys forgot early at what cost Christianity got to our people. "Red Sun" forgotten. When out of 12 million people after Christianization there were 3 million left, those who broke down and adopted Christianity. After that, our family went further from those who broke down.
    1. +5
      26 September 2016 11: 06
      And who then considered these millions? And who killed so many people in the forests? Where are the numbers from? Or, from there, where did the participants in the Battle of the Ice count from our side counted 10-12 thousand? No need to rave, and if you can’t keep your nonsense in your hands, then there are good medications. You come to the doctor of the appropriate profile, you tell that millions of slaughtered Slavs of the Gentiles, whom Prince Vladimir decided to take part in, will be prescribed, treated, and if treatment at home does not help, then they will be hospitalized. He knew one such man, obsessed with aliens who took our form and lived among us. True, they could not cure him ...
      1. +6
        26 September 2016 12: 15
        Quote: kalibr
        And who then considered these millions? And who killed so many people in the forests? Where are the numbers from? Or from there where did the participants in the Battle of the Ice count from our side alone 10-12 thousand? No need to rave, and if you can’t keep your nonsense in your hands, then there are good medications.

        Interestingly, but believe in the millions of "victims" of the GULAG .... just a year ago it was))))
        The magic of big numbers.

        kalibr September 25, 2015 17:23 ↑
        You want to say that the White Sea-Baltic Canal did not dig 800 thousand convicts? Many were even awarded for their hard work and prematurely released ... But all the same, convicts.

        kalibr September 25, 2015 18:50 ↑
        Eight hundred thousand of which, according to official figures, two hundred died ... They remembered! And then its significance was great at that time, otherwise they would not have been built, right? Then it became less, but it’s not about that, right?
        1. +2
          26 September 2016 12: 39
          Well, unlike the times of Vladimir Russia, with the Gulag everything is easier, it was relatively recently not all participants have even died, and the archives have been preserved. And Vladimir Russia is almost legendary, so that only common sense and archeology can help here. And then you can really believe that the Serpent Gorynych is a mutant who really lived a dinosaur. wassat
          1. +3
            26 September 2016 12: 46
            So the fact of the matter is the documents, but stubbornly a la Solzhenitsyn about 100 myo who died in the VIO, 800 thousand worked on the channel, 200 thousand died there, etc. etc.
        2. 0
          26 September 2016 13: 22
          There are documents for all this in the State Archive of the Russian Federation and other archives. You can't even imagine how much. Records on the salaries of the guards, reports on production rates, reports on incentives for prisoners and guards, the consumption of fuel and lubricants and wheelbarrows. So what are you talking about? I do not "believe", I know, but believe in God. Open the page of GARF in Google and see for yourself. There are also photocopies of materials. Of course, it is clear that all this is "fake." But no one would ever fake the wagons of the data from the camps that lie there.
          1. +2
            27 September 2016 23: 52
            Quote: kalibr
            There are documents for all this in the State Archive of the Russian Federation and other archives. You can't even imagine how much. Records on the salaries of the guards, reports on production rates, reports on incentives for prisoners and guards, the consumption of fuel and lubricants and wheelbarrows. So what are you talking about? I do not "believe", I know, but believe in God. Open the page of GARF in Google and see for yourself. There are also photocopies of materials. Of course, it is clear that all this is "fake." But no one would ever fake the wagons of the data from the camps that lie there.

            Yes, what a fake? Everything is correct according to the documents. Even in everyone's favorite liquid therapy:
            “The construction was carried out mainly by prisoners of the Gulag, whose total number does not exceed 126 thousand people, but they were not the same people, they were constantly changing due to the high death rate. In total, over 250 thousand people were sent here during the construction of the canal. of which 12 people died. In different periods of construction, the number of prisoners varied, not exceeding 800 thousand "

            So where are 800 workers and 000 dead ??? No more than 200 Karl !!! )))))
      2. +1
        26 September 2016 14: 23
        The impression is that the victims of cartoons sponsored by the Russian Orthodox Church multiply exponentially. And even very adult and there must be reasonable husbands this cup does not pass. :))
    2. +3
      26 September 2016 11: 11
      How did you count them 12 and 3 ?? and in general comparing your comments here and in the "weapons" section, it seems that you are troll80lvl.
      1. +3
        26 September 2016 11: 36
        It's okay schA solar storms and indignations will end and let go. And my friend, I would advise you to tie up with "energy-informational practice", in the age of Wi-Fi and Bluupup, irreparable damage can be caused to your fresh fruit, without the possibility of recovery.
      2. +4
        26 September 2016 13: 48
        as soon as an article is published on historical topics, the PKK scribbles a dozen mega-poops urging everyone to believe that historians are scammers, and Fomenko and Nosovsky are holy people. But without such schizophrenics, articles on VO would become dry and uninteresting. No, no, they are answered by some adequate person, thereby expanding the horizons of less informed readers. So let the PKK continue to write, after all, a little more and then we will reject the pseudoscientific Traditional History and fall into the sweet and serene embrace of the History of the New ... laughing
    3. 0
      26 September 2016 11: 39
      Sorry that I do not share your point of view, but, as I recall, Prince Vladimir, being a pagan, was extremely voluptuous. And after the adoption of Christianity, it seems, changed his habits))
      honestly, as a historical character, he is extremely unsympathetic to me. But for the state he did a great job. Including, and the adoption of Christianity.
      in general, this is a conversation about nothing. Nobody will convince anyone.))
      the numbers are really interesting .. who invented something like that ..
    4. +3
      26 September 2016 12: 12
      To believe in these 9 million ruined souls and 3 million remaining you need to be enchanting dol ... m ... Here the arguments will not help, here is the clinic.
      They just don’t even understand the absurd! If you are a business executive and you have 12 employees, 9 removed, then your entire household will be 3! Considering the external and internal factors, your farm will come ... in less than two weeks!
      PS To kill 9 million people by hand in such a short time, and people at that time all knew how to hold a sword, even if they had a bow, they needed a huge army! And very trained. Or were those 9 million simply amoebas who could not even hold a knife and could not organize resistance? This is nonsense and an insult to the Russian man and the whole people.
      1. +1
        26 September 2016 14: 33
        Dear accountant! "Non-Christians" a priori would not pay tribute to Christian princes, and therefore the preservation of their farms of Vladimir's heirs did not care. They would not be kept for the reason that for the people of the old faith the "prince" was a "bookish man", a judge, an elder, an elected head. And not as a parasite with a gang of ragged parasites, knocking out "food". The destruction of pagan settlements was quite logical for the usurping princes, as was the settlement of the cleared places by those who adopted Christianity (more often for show) and were ready to recognize the supremacy of the Byzantine priests. So the massacre in this situation simply could not be. Only this is hidden behind a screen of wars and massacres between the heirs of Vladimir Svyatoslavich. Therefore, it is shyly covered in darkness. Economically, the pagan settlements could not survive either, since the cities from the points of exchange and protection in fact became "feeding places" for the gnawing descendants of the Grand Duke of Kiev.
        1. -1
          26 September 2016 14: 52
          And where did these pagan gods go, whom were they afraid of? Could not resist, the strength does not appear to be with them. And do not scare the perun with arrows, she doesn’t even fly dumb)
          But the economy meant the state. Even such a simple example did not understand.
          1. +2
            26 September 2016 15: 38
            Dear, let's not shove each other our objections on the topic of religion. What you are fanning about unprotected pagans can just as well be projected onto Christians, remember the "red terror". Everything is simple, as the people say, God proposes, and man disposes. Well, "trust in God, but don't do it yourself."
            As for me, religion has long (from ancient times for sure) become a business, with all the consequences. And yes, faith and religion are two different things to me.
            1. 0
              26 September 2016 15: 48
              I think, in general, initially the article was about the battle of the Hundred Years War, but we reduced it to a discussion (sometimes not very beautiful) on the topic of Russian religion. Thank you for the helpful comments above; Unfortunately, I am not very strong in religion (so superficially).
              1. +2
                26 September 2016 15: 59
                That says two things.
                1. The main topic of the article is sufficiently disclosed, there is nothing special to say, thanks to the author.
                This is a plus.
                2. Do not insert into an article on a very narrow topic, an emotional opus on a completely left-wing topic, and besides, it is far from unambiguous and very topical. That minus.
                1. 0
                  26 September 2016 16: 07
                  and we succumbed, that’s the whole story. And then lovers of alternative history joined in.
                  but about point 1 - there is nothing to add.))
            2. -1
              27 September 2016 08: 45
              Despite the red terrorists, Orthodoxy remained the core of the nation, and Joseph Visarionovich himself eased the persecution of the church, and emphasized the Russianness of the nation and not Sovietism.
              1. +2
                27 September 2016 11: 08
                Yes, what are you saying, it’s just Russian, or all the same, multinational, in spite of German Nazism. Or we have 90% of the population of the USSR were Russians, and the remaining 10% as "unreliable peoples" were repressed. Stalin really eased the pressure on religion, not because Orthodoxy could unite an Uzbek with a Russian, Buryat or Jew, but because a person needs not only hatred of the enemy, but Faith to raise his fighting spirit. Faith in Christ, Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, a bright communist future is different for everyone. And the church by that time was firmly tied to the new government and did not dare to squeak without a command.
                Do not try to wishful thinking.
        2. +1
          26 September 2016 15: 47
          Well, any internecine strife can be adjusted to a religious genocide. Let's say that Svyatopolk Okoyany was a "pagan" pagan "we know from monks chroniclers in the service of Yaroslav the Wise. As they say, who pays the money is the chronicle and dictates. Or do you believe the honesty and integrity of the Russian princes and chroniclers, by the way, with a high probability of Byzantine origin.
      2. +2
        26 September 2016 16: 02
        Well, let's just say for a professional warrior to arrange genocide by destroying the enemy's settlement, questions do not arise, with almost any balance of forces, a detachment of vigilantes is stronger than the biomass of peasants / artisans. Here, rather, the question is: why should the prince kill his own workers who create that surplus product seized by the feudal lord, due to which they feed, shoe, dress, arm, train him and his squad. This is PPC how illogical. No, the most violent of course can be repressed, executed, whipped, tried to ostracize, rip out their nostrils or stuff a tatuha with a red-hot iron - but the mass genocide of its own population is a completely different matter. Moreover, this will create political tension - than partners in the political process will not accept to take advantage of and grab a rebellious piece of land from the possessions by promising the natives "freedom, democracy and the Lithuanian way of life" laughing So Christianization had to be carried out very competently, gradually, relying on the local nobility, and not as Dolboslavs invent themselves.
  6. +2
    26 September 2016 13: 22
    What is the argument about? Which of the religions is cooler - deceased a thousand years ago or dying the last hundred years? In any religion, the basis is not dogma, but its reflection on the culture of communication between believers and the outside world, it is a moral and ethical complex and traditions. Liberalism (Bolshevism, etc.) changes (kills) precisely traditions and the me.k. first of all, only politics remains from religion. And the same Islam is strong in that it is not so much a dogma as a moral and ethical code.
  7. PKK
    26 September 2016 15: 34
    To local figures from TI and T Physics, I hasten to remind you that excitement is not on the essence of the issue, and unrestrained assessments indicate a weak character.
    Well, you don't like the numbers, 9 lemons, 3 lemons, the point is not in them, in the fact that there was a "Red Sun" and there was a baptism in January. A noticeable number of people who did not recognize the new religion with fire and sword perished. How long will the Christian warrior kill people.
    This genocide was covered up (we do not forget that state institutions are engaged in the cover), the Tatar-Mongol yoke. Which could not be understood.
    The religion of the former people, "pagan", should not cause contempt, sarcasm and be criticized. This is a religion from Nature, a local, attached to a place, a natural religion. Invented and superficial Christianity cannot be compared with the religion of Perun.
    The theory of Fomenko, Nosovsky, is complicated for me, I don’t catch up with it, but there are people who are just as serious and able to work, so they teach those who do not want to stupidly shut themselves off at the Karamzin tales.
    1. +3
      26 September 2016 16: 38
      But nothing that TMI was a bit later than the baptism of Russia? Well, the dadad of history is only 200 years old, historians have already gotten sick of faking artifacts. By the way, are you aware that workers of bulldozers pouring cultural layers on the sites of ancient cities threaten to strike because the liquid reptilians ceased to secrete pheromones of humility?
    2. +1
      26 September 2016 22: 26
      If not in millions, why are you writing about them? And it is really a long time to beat a warrior ... this is his "cattle" with which he has a swag. No one cuts cattle in vain, but here human cattle, what are you doing? There is ice on the river in January, but where is it written in the annals? Why lie in this case? It is easier to write that people were baptized with joy in the ice-hole, blazing with love for the Lord. But no ... And you need to SPECIFICALLY ANSWER specific questions? Otkel nonsense about 12 million people and 9 million killed? Who dug burials, counted and sorted pagans from Christians? How many years did it take and who funded the dig? And where in which department of the Russian Academy of Sciences reports ... Or easier and in Russian speaking not on business pi ... do not!
  8. +3
    26 September 2016 15: 45
    Prince Vladimir, baptizing all of Russia (and not the top like Askold) solved the problem of building a single state from many tribal associations of the Eastern Slavs. Otherwise, Russia and Russians would not exist now, and Germans, Finns, Khazars, Mongols and Chinese would live on its territory.

    The Christian religion has a strictly centralized hierarchy of its clergy - in contrast to paganism, Judaism and Islam, where each priest / rabbi / mufti has the right to interpret the principles of religion in his own way and independently manage the local community.

    Plus a free bonus in the form of familiarization with the most advanced civilization - European, which has absorbed all the achievements of the Sumerians, Hittites, Greeks and Romans.

    The correctness of Vladimir’s actions is confirmed by the very fact of the subsequent occupation by the Russians of the entire Heartland, reinforced by the creation of the largest military (nuclear missile) potential in the history of mankind.

    Consequently, all the sacrifices made by our people (during baptism, centuries-old confrontation with the Tatar-Mongols, the Time of Troubles, the schism of the Church, the reforms of Peter, the reflection of the aggressions of Europeans and Turks, the Stalinist regime, WWII and perestroika) were not in vain.

    Anyone who does not want to come to terms with this will be in the same place as the Khazar Kaganate, Horde, Sweden, Poland, the French Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the German Empire, the British Empire, the Japanese Empire and the Third Reich.
  9. 0
    6 October 2016 13: 04
    This has never happened before, and here again) Again the French took the most idiotic position and were again utterly defeated. It seems that their God cruelly punished for something, time after time depriving sensible commanders and forcing to make all conceivable mistakes.
  10. 0
    7 October 2016 14: 27
    Oh, but why write nonsense about Askold, it’s better to talk about Western Europe!
  11. -1
    15 January 2017 12: 59
    Quote: ILDM1986
    and the pagan camp was rapidly melting away - Russia was surrounded by Christian, Muslim and Jewish countries at the time in the 10th century. It was necessary to choose with whom to build our relations, with whom and against whom to be friends - otherwise you would be alone against everyone. But for the pagan, the question of religion was not so much moral as one of the few ways of self-identification, and the Christian god was just one of the gods, who was clearly stronger than the pagan gods - it was enough to look at the wealth of Byzantium and Rome. So the Old Russian princes faced a purely pragmatic choice for whom it was more expensive to sell their faith.

    ... Jesus - the prince of Bogolyubsky was crucified in 1185 .. It is from this fright that Christianity appeared before Christ? ..
  12. +1
    20 July 2017 08: 08
    Vyacheslav, it’s clear why the battle remains little known. Over 120 years of war, there have been so many such battles there that there aren’t enough fingers on all limbs to count them. Naturally, some have become more famous, some have remained in the shade. Crécy, Poitiers, Agencourt are not just battles, they are beats that have had a huge impact on the whole story. Ore, the "battle of herrings" and others in this series are known only to specialists, but to amateurs with a specialized education, such as me) The same thing is with the battle of Omovzh. It is in the textbooks, but was lost against the backdrop of the Tatar-Mongol invasion and the battles of Alexander Nevsky.
    By the way, Askold did not baptize Russia at all. He himself was baptized with part of the squad, this is a bit of a different scale. Therefore, he did not become either an equal apostle, or at least a holy martyr. Also, afterwards, that the princes-Rurikovich did not readily recall that before them the princes were here. Pure policy.
  13. 0
    18 December 2018 12: 12
    And why all this? !!! including the article.

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