Military Review

The incredible success of the probable opponent

60
During the 80 years of its existence, units of the People’s Liberation Army of China (PLA) conducted combat training activities in accordance with the requirements and attitudes that were adopted during the period of Soviet-Chinese friendship. The evolution of weapons and military equipment led to a change in tactics.

The officers of the Office of Combat Training of the General Assembly of the PLA regularly make adjustments to the plans of combat training, are engaged in the development of training grounds, shooting ranges and other training sites. The main sources of new approaches are the developments of the Russian Federation and the United States, which are renowned for their efforts by military intelligence and analytical units. So in modern Russian Armed Forces, the Chinese military adopted the concept of interspecific training grounds (PMP) and sudden checks.

It is known that PLA has at its disposal eight PMPs, namely: Taonan (Jilin Province), Zhuzhihe (Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region), Quyeshan (Henan), Sanjie (Zhejiang), Lujai (Guangxi-Zhuang Autonomous Region), and Cintun Xia (Ningxia) Huye Autonomous Region), Dalianshan (Sichuan), Shandan (Gansu).

Sudden "Breakthrough"

In mid-May, according to the plan of measures for combat training of crews tanks and infantry fighting vehicles at the Tsingtunsya PMP, the first competition was held, "Central Steel Fist - Steel Tank Riders", a copy of the Russian tank biathlon. In the final part of the competition 10 crews took part - the leaders according to the results of the qualifying competitions in the 54th, 38th, 27th, 31st and 1st combined arms armies of the SV PLA.

The length of the Chinese tank biathlon track is 21 kilometer for a single race and 16 kilometers for pair runs. There are eight types of obstacles and 24 targets on the track. The crew must conduct reconnaissance for three kilometers of the route in order to identify the potential enemy forces.

The exercises of the rifle units at the PMP Zhuzhihe have been given the name “Kuayue” (“Breakthrough”). They have been held since 2009. This polygon is considered the most equipped among such training sites. There is a railway station at Zhuzhihe, which allows you to take trains from 20 passenger cars. When unloading machinery checks the implementation of temporary standards. It is known that some units are transferred to the landfill from permanent locations that are at a distance of 4500 kilometers.

Analysis of photo and video shows that the landfill can accommodate up to 10 thousands of people in the multi-storey barracks, and in the parks - 1000 armored vehicles. In addition, six blocks of residential buildings imitation, typical for settlements of the People's Republic of China, as well as an exact replica of the government buildings quarter in Taipei, the capital of Taiwan, have been created at the site. The power supply of the landfill is provided by a network of wind generators, which are installed at a considerable distance from the target areas.

The enemy forces on the Zhuzhihe PPS are units of the 195-th motorized rifle brigade 13 A and CB PLA, which are equipped with modernized versions of the Tank 59, 69 and 96 tanks, BMP and the Tank 89 anti-tank guns. According to Chinese military estimates, 195-I defeats the forces of the "red" in 95 percent of cases, because it uses the tactics of the highly maneuverable Stryker brigade of the US Army, as well as some techniques that were overseen during the observation of the sudden checks of the combat readiness of the Russian Army. Episodes of the “Breakthrough” exercise are also held at the Quayshan, Sanjie and Taonan test sites.

The incredible success of the probable opponent


During the “Breakthrough of Zhuzhihe”, three-day gatherings of commanders of the army, divisional and brigade level are held. There are large-scale demonstrations of actions on mock-ups of the district, analysis of problem points, practical deployment.

The inter-district exercises of the SV artillery brigades have the symbol “Holi (“ Power of Fire ”) Tsintunya” and are carried out in five stages. According to PRC media reports, gunners from 21, 31, 39, 41, and 54 armies are taking part in these maneuvers, in cooperation with which the EW, Air Defense and medical personnel of military hospitals operate on an unfamiliar training ground. Some units carry out a transfer from permanent locations to a distance of 2500 kilometers.

The formation of such a grouping of forces is due to the fact that the PPP Tsintunya is located in a mountainous area at an altitude from 1300 to 3000 meters above sea level. The enemy is 55 and 56 of the 47 A mountain-rifle brigades, for whom such conditions are lightened, since the soldiers are undergoing training at training bases at altitudes from 4500 to 6200 meters.

The armored vehicles of the data and similar units are created taking into account actions in the highlands, it is distinguished by power and reliability. As a rule, the PLA mountain rifle units use a tactical technique called “Two Peaks” when using army helicopters Mi-171 aviation the landing of personnel and light guns is carried out for two passes from the position of the enemy.

Celestial Guard

A series of exercises under the designation "Shandan Fire Power" is being conducted to test combat training and the coherence of the operations of the anti-personnel units of the SC PLA. The Shandan training ground includes three test areas, a training base and a joint tactical training center.



The servicemen of the joint air defense brigades armed with anti-aircraft missile and rocket-gun complexes of Russian and Chinese production must prevent the enemy forces from breaking through the air defense lines, which are 2 Fighter Division of the Air Force with the honorary title “South Tyrant”, aerobatic team "Red Falcons", "Wings of the sky" and "First of August."

According to data from open sources, "South Tiran" - the main unit of the likely enemy. The division’s armament is the Jian-11B, Jian-7E, Su-27 SC and Su-30MKK fighters with camouflage patterns typical of the USAF, Vietnam, India and Japan. The main part of aviation technology is located at bases in the cities of Zhane and Uwei.

Pilots of squadrons of this division use tactical techniques from the arsenal of pilots of these countries and carry out radio exchanges in English, Vietnamese, Indian and Japanese. Information about the elements of fighter aviation training in the countries of the likely enemy comes through military intelligence channels as well as during the friendly exercises of the PRC and Pakistan Air Forces.

To create a complex electromagnetic environment against the forces of the "red", four support units operate at the test site with modern EW equipment.

The only thing that can counterpose to the actions of the aviation division of the ground defense, - stealth and surprise response. The result is achieved by using camouflage coatings on difficult terrain, since the territory of the landfill is the Helanshan mountain range.

Tanks do not climb into the mud

To check the combat readiness of servicemen and vehicles of armored units of the SV PLA at the Qyueshan PMP, the central sharp sword interunity exercises are held. This PMP (created in 1999 as a shooting range and modernized in 2007) has 400 false electronic targets in eight directions and more than 1000 moving targets of various sizes.

To increase the speed of movement of armored vehicles and reduce the wear and tear of the material part in the PLA since the 70-s, tank tractors with 6xXNNXX and 6x8 wheel formulas have been used. Such special cars are produced at the factories in Taian (TA brand, 8, 4360 and 4410А models) and Wuhan (Hanyan brand, HY5570AS model).

According to news agencies, armored units of the "red" forces during the exercise made throws at a range of 380 kilometers at the range’s muddy roads after floods and torrential rains, which indicates an increase in the reliability of Chinese technology, which previously was not able to overcome more than 250 kilometers without serious damage and mechanical failures.

Marines repainted

Zhuzhihe and Taonan with the 2015 of the year are used for conducting exercises of the 1 and 164 units of the PLA Navy Marine Brigade in the autumn-winter period. Winter studies (January-February) are designed to give marines the opportunity to train in unfamiliar terrain, which is very different from the coastline of the southern provinces of China. By 2016, the commanders of the marines took into account the shortcomings of the standard camouflage (blue and white) coloring and last winter the floating armored vehicles and assault guns were repainted in sandy white color or covered with full-sized covers with fixtures for elements of local vegetation.

Testing the actions of the marines in a mountainous and wooded area is organized at the Maloon firing range located in the Yunnan province of the same name. Until 2015, it served as a shooting range, but the management of the combat training of the types of troops of the General Staff of the PLA approved a plan for the modernization and expansion of the site. As a result, the area has been cleared for several directresses, new target areas have been created.

Exam special forces

Analysts of the management of combat training of the types of troops of the Joint Operational Headquarters under the Central Military Council of the CPC conduct an analysis of each episode of the exercises immediately upon its completion with the assessment of the divisions of the "red" and "blue" forces. Then a detailed review within two months. By the way, the final result is also influenced by such an indicator as the provision of security during the transfer of a unit (by rail, as a part of motorcade). In the role of sabotage groups of potential enemy forces can be one of the special purpose units of the PLA 16. After the completion of all training activities of the spring-summer period, experimental maneuvers are carried out with the involvement of two brigades, which are invited to apply new tactical techniques.

In 2015, the units of the likely adversary defeated the forces of the "red" in almost all stages. This result meant an extremely low level of training commanders. The results of the 2016 of the year (units of the "red" forces were able to overcome the advanced positions of the "blue" in 50% of episodes) showed that the leadership of the SV PLA took measures aimed at improving the quality of combat training.
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Originator:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/32446
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  1. Danil Laryon
    Danil Laryon 24 September 2016 06: 48
    +5
    The main thing is that they do not trample on us, otherwise the clone warrior will come, mixed with this lol
    1. rotmistr60
      rotmistr60 24 September 2016 07: 06
      +20
      Do you actually know anything about China? I quickly threw in a picture and thought that he was "on horseback." Aren't you ashamed yourself? Although what I mean, there is no such shame (I specially read your comments - a complete mess).
      1. Danil Laryon
        Danil Laryon 24 September 2016 07: 18
        +1
        And what I should know about them is interesting request
        1. rotmistr60
          rotmistr60 24 September 2016 07: 24
          +9
          So what...

          So what? Before writing a comment, at least read a periodical.
          1. Old Horseradish
            Old Horseradish 24 September 2016 11: 48
            +25
            Quote: rotmistr60
            Before writing a comment, at least read a periodical.

            Son, in 1941, in the periodical press of the USSR, everyone wrote in black and white: "Germany is our friend, ally, and the German proletariat in general is our brother!" As a result, Hitler reached Moscow and Leningrad, annihilated millions of our soldiers and officers. Why, sons, does history teach us nothing ?! The Chinese openly say that Siberia and the Far East are their territory, which was occupied by Imperial Russia! And only grandfather Putin calls all Russia's enemies allies and partners and pumps up China with modern Russian weapons. Sons, think about where all these armada of tanks rumble? Or do you think that they will crawl across the ocean to America ?!
            1. rotmistr60
              rotmistr60 24 September 2016 13: 08
              +8
              What kind of son am I to you? I am already over 60, and here you are from the master's table - son. Wake up grandfather. And the nickname Old Horseradish matches. The strategist of you is useless.
            2. Pulya
              Pulya 24 September 2016 18: 27
              +6
              Old Horseradish Have you looked at the map?
              Where are they going to trample this tank armada ?????
              Between China and Moscow fields and meadows .... when I do not want :)
              Mountains, Taiga, Bolata and rivers. Well, take Vladik and Khabarovsk ... and then what?
              And then ICBM wait for a visit from us !!!
              Do not write nonsense.
              1. GYGOLA
                GYGOLA 24 September 2016 21: 28
                +3
                Pulya Today, 18:27
                Do not write nonsense.
                Very practical advice ... Start with yourself, think about the ICBMs ... strategist, damn it.
                1. Talgat
                  Talgat 24 September 2016 22: 45
                  +15
                  I am inclined to the point of view of the captain

                  It’s wrong to write China adversarily
                  me. like almost any Kazakh. brought up in the vein of a wary attitude to China, and in general the whole of the steppe is largely the story of the confrontation with China. And if there was no resistance of the steppe - perhaps the Great Wall of China would now pass through the Almaty region

                  But at this historical moment, a much greater danger came from outside - our state was completely destroyed - and its fragments — the Russian Federation — are already under attack. KZ Belarusians, etc.
                  In this situation, China has become a situational ally - the same aggressor is threatening it

                  And we must admit that China does not arrange sanctions, does not place anti-missile defense assets and a quick global strike near us all, does not sponsor instability, and does not undermine our states. not satisfied with border wars and orange revolutions.
                  On the contrary, it helps us all fight this outrage. Saying that now China is the enemy

                  Now it is a completely reliable ally - who needs to have peace of mind in our country and in the Russian Federation and pipelines pump oil. Reliable friendly rear at least. A military-political alliance is desirable and generally - but with this we need to be careful
            3. code54
              code54 26 September 2016 12: 34
              +2
              You cannot treat China with a joking tone! Those still "friends", during the day they will smile and bow to you, and at night they will drive a needle into your ear! And if you let it go home (the land), you won't drive it out later.
            4. Asadullah
              Asadullah 26 September 2016 17: 28
              +5
              The Chinese openly say that Siberia and the Far East are their territory, which was occupied by Imperial Russia!


              Who told you that? Familiar Chinese? I don’t know the principle of nichrome, but I think it doesn’t just let you down, it condemns you to eternal loss. First of all, all that is interesting to the Chinese in the north is water. That is why Cupid was shared touchingly and tenderly, long and hard. And the final point was made with the last treaty, which nullifies any possible territorial disputes. The PRC has no such agreement with any other border state. The second point is the mentality of the Han people, and he is in folklore, a person who is lucky in life - living in the south, who was overcome by adversity - living in the north. The latrine is located in the north side of the yard. Saying, it will be good when the Sun rises from the North. Any Chinese working in the north wants to make money and move south. To all this, huge empty territories in the north and west, into which the authorities are luring with various preferences, free housing, but still they are empty. But tens of millions of Chinese have settled in Australia and Southeast Asia, on the island states. An example of Singapore, which was founded by the Chinese and lives in it safely. Without any military intervention. And you want to say that the leadership of the PRC is asleep and sees how to win back Siberia from the nuclear power and populate it with its citizens, who cannot be lured into the inhabited regions of Chinese "Siberia" even today? So why the hell would they not rush south to the shores of the desired Indian Ocean in a few months, without exchanging hydrogen greetings?

              Armada tanks say, but in general, have you tried to understand the military concept of modern China? We heard that Taiwan is China, Xiangan and Macao are also China, the disputed islands in the east. Have you ever encountered a discussion of possible theater of the region? So, for the past thirty years, it has exclusively twisted around Taiwan. All war games one way or another reflect the clash between China and the United States on Taiwan. And in general, if a person is interested in a topic, and not ChSZ, he digs the information, and does not rummage in heaps of chickens as an example. I apologize if Che.
            5. stas
              stas 26 September 2016 17: 44
              0
              Horseradish is horseradish, that would carry hrenyatina.
              Fuck you to your own sons, suck your bullshit.
        2. Forest
          Forest 24 September 2016 09: 03
          +4
          So the war and lose - not knowing anything about the likely enemy.
        3. tilovaykrisa
          tilovaykrisa 26 September 2016 11: 32
          +1
          The fact that for centuries China has had competitors in the face of such powers as Japan.India.Vietnam recently the United States, they have a huge bunch of mutual territorial claims and China claims to be in another region. If there will be a batch then in the Pacific region.
    2. GYGOLA
      GYGOLA 24 September 2016 17: 54
      +9
      Thank you Maxim, China is indeed a potential adversary. While the world is taking "theirs" ...
  2. 34 region
    34 region 24 September 2016 07: 50
    +8
    What to say? Well done! They practice battle skills and analyze errors. And this is without hatred and everything is gone! Parsing the shortcomings move forward. I like this approach. No window dressing, with advantages and disadvantages. Only by revealing your shortcomings and miscalculations can you move forward. Well done!
    1. Berkut752
      Berkut752 24 September 2016 14: 10
      +1
      Quote: 34 region
      What to say? Well done! They practice battle skills and analyze errors. And this is without hatred and everything is gone! Parsing the shortcomings move forward. I like this approach. No window dressing, with advantages and disadvantages. Only by revealing your shortcomings and miscalculations can you move forward. Well done!

      You did not pay attention to the most important thing. They do not come up with anything of their own, AND USE AMERZY AND RUSSIAN WORKS. That’s the salt, it’s first. And secondly, there is a video recording and analysis of exercises by our experts.
  3. Yak28
    Yak28 24 September 2016 08: 47
    +2
    In addition to the huge human resources that China can make up for, there’s nothing sensible, more than two hundred and more old nuclear weapons on obsolete carriers and a pile of outdated equipment. It is the enormous size of the Chinese army (which is easily destroyed by WMD) that keeps China in the top three strongest armies in the world. in the event of a serious war with the United States or with Russia, even without the use of nuclear weapons, China has no chance of victory, and with the use of nuclear weapons it will be the beating of a baby.
    1. Bloodsucker
      Bloodsucker 24 September 2016 09: 22
      +12
      This nonsense, you yourself invented, or who suggested?
      You tell it in the USA, they will believe you.
    2. vlad.svargin
      vlad.svargin 24 September 2016 10: 26
      +3
      In 2010, Beijing possesses more than 3500 units of nuclear weapons (at the same time it produces 200 b / heads of the modern generation) Each missile launcher has five missiles (readiness to launch a nuclear strike in several waves) On duty, the PRC’s nuclear potential is about 300 b / strategic carriers (200-300 kiloton blocks),
      150 b / s on medium and short range ballistic missiles.
      According to US forecasts, by 2020 there will be up to 200 ICBMs (mines and automobile chassis) on duty, including ICBMs that carry up to 10 units (both b / heads and false targets) with a range of 11 and 14 thousand km
      So who wants to try it will be enough ...
    3. Odysseus
      Odysseus 24 September 2016 16: 13
      +5
      Quote: Yak28
      In addition to the huge human resources that China can make up for, there’s nothing sensible, more than two hundred and more old nuclear weapons on obsolete carriers and a pile of outdated equipment. It is the enormous size of the Chinese army (which is easily destroyed by WMD) that keeps China in the top three strongest armies in the world. in the event of a serious war with the United States or with Russia, even without the use of nuclear weapons, China has no chance of victory, and with the use of nuclear weapons it will be the beating of a baby.

      This is the craziest message I've ever read. Bravo! You simply cannot be surpassed.
      Reality is absolutely, diametrically opposed to what you wrote.
      1. Yak28
        Yak28 24 September 2016 20: 39
        +1
        I remember the Arabs, with the support of the USSR, had a numerical superiority over Israel both in human resources and in tanks, but this did not stop the Arabs from disgracing themselves and losing all the soldiers to the Jews because if they were not given the chance to win, they weren’t given. That’s the same as China, and they ass.
        1. Odysseus
          Odysseus 24 September 2016 22: 02
          +11
          Quote: Yak28
          I remember the Arabs with the support of the USSR had a numerical superiority over Israel

          And here is Israel and the Arabs? And if you are so interested in Israel, then the United States and Israel is actually a single state, so Israel can only be defeated by defeating the United States.
          That is, the "Arabs" (in fact, far from all Arabs fought) initially had no chance. The fact that the USSR allowed itself to be dragged into this adventure with "help" only speaks of the strategic inadequacy of the political leadership of the USSR since Khrushchev.
          Quote: Yak28
          China they seem to have everything, but they ass.

          To say from the current Russian Federation that China is an "ass", to put it mildly, is ridiculous.
          In fact, the People’s Republic of China (which is not related to imperial China) since 1945 won in general all the conflicts in which it took part (except for border clashes with the USSR in 1969, however, all the same, China resolved all issues on the border islands in its favor) .
          And already in 1969, when the PRC was a hundred times weaker, and Russia (the USSR) ten times stronger than now, Soviet military strategists rated the PRC as a serious enemy, which is why they held a gigantic group of troops in the Far East of the USSR (larger than the entire current Russian army )
          And now, with a large-scale invasion without the use of nuclear weapons, say from the Transbaikalia, the PLA’s main problem will not be the victory over the Russian army, but its search, given that we have only 36 motorized rifle brigade with 31 tanks made in the USSR for the whole region.
          1. poquello
            poquello 24 September 2016 23: 11
            0
            Quote: Odyssey
            since 1945 she won in general all the conflicts in which she took part

            and with vietnam?
            1. Odysseus
              Odysseus 25 September 2016 01: 57
              +7
              Quote: poquello
              and with vietnam?

              And in Vietnam, the PLA ended the war in Vietnam. On March 4, 1979, Langshon was taken and Vietnam’s situation became critical. The war ended after Moscow clearly indicated that it would not allow Vietnam’s defeat and declared Vietnam to be mobilized universally.
              At the same time, our Far Eastern districts were deployed across the military states and the largest exercises in Mongolia were conducted using strategic aviation.
              China could not fight the USSR and they left Vietnam.
              Moreover, the Chinese then fought poorly, worse than the Vietnamese who have vast experience, just then Yak28’s assessment of a huge army with primitive weapons was correct.
              But still, without the USSR, Vietnam would have been doomed.
              1. poquello
                poquello 26 September 2016 03: 28
                +1
                Quote: Odyssey
                But still, without the USSR, Vietnam would have been doomed.

                at the expense of "would" I have been here repeatedly ..
                maybe you don’t know some points
                -China spoke with US support
                -Almost all the troops of Vietnam were in Kampuchea
                -of 150-300 thousand Chinese buildings 65 thousand losses
                - maximum advance 80km
                Quote: Odyssey
                huge army with primitive weapons

                ? tanks, guns, mortars, 700 fighters
                1. Odysseus
                  Odysseus 26 September 2016 17: 27
                  0
                  Thank you, I know. But the PLA didn’t even put into action even half of its forces.
                  Trouble answered already below, I believe that initially the Chinese leadership set itself limited military goals and curtailed operations in the face of the threat of a transition to a full-scale war.
                  As for the level of the PRC army in '79, then the level of mechanization of the army was very low, the equipment was outdated (by the standards of 79), the operational literacy of the commanders was low. The main force then (but not now) was in numbers and moral factor.
          2. Kostya Andreev
            Kostya Andreev 25 September 2016 00: 22
            0
            Could you list the conflicts?
            1. poquello
              poquello 25 September 2016 00: 32
              +3
              Quote: Kostya Andrei
              Could you list the conflicts?

              the funny thing is that in Korea, the Chinese piled on the Americans, not without our help, of course
            2. Odysseus
              Odysseus 25 September 2016 02: 08
              +6
              Quote: Kostya Andreev
              Could you list the conflicts?

              The Civil War in China-1945-1949. A clear victory. Moreover, the Chaykanshists supported the United States.
              Korean War 1950-1953. Victory on points. Chinese volunteers changed the course of the war and saved the DPRK. In general, the war ended in a draw, but if it were not for the Chinese, the DPRK would have lost or ours had to intervene directly.
              Sino-Tibet War-1951. A clear victory.
              Sino-Indian War 1962. A clear victory.
              Sino-Soviet "incidents" 1969. The PRC's aggression was repulsed.
              Sino-Vietnamese War-1979. Victory "on points". The Chinese left the territory of Vietnam under the pressure of the USSR.
              The capture of the Spratly Islands from Vietnam in 1988.
              Moreover, all this was at a time when the PLA was many times weaker than now.
              1. Kostya Andreev
                Kostya Andreev 25 September 2016 11: 24
                0
                From what you list:
                Civil wars. (in which external forces participated)
                Border conflicts - what you call victories. with unclear criteria such as "victory on points".
                Participation in wars with the full technological and financial support of the USSR.
                So I wrote
                Quote: Odyssey
                (border conflicts such as daman do not count).

                because such victories are present in many countries, which no one considers powers.
                1. Odysseus
                  Odysseus 25 September 2016 21: 23
                  +3
                  Quote: Kostya Andreev
                  Border conflicts - what you call victories. with unclear criteria such as "victory on points".

                  You can only call the Korean War a "border conflict" if you have a lot of imagination. About "victory by points" I wrote only in two cases - I described the criteria. In the case of the Korean War, this is a turning point in the war with the help of Chinese volunteers. it would have been the DPRK, the United States and its satellites liquidated North Korea.
                  In the event of the seizure of part of the territory of other states or their liquidation (Tibet), I wrote about complete victory.
                  Quote: Kostya Andreev
                  Participation in wars with the full technological and financial support of the USSR.

                  It is not clear what kind of "support" the USSR is talking about when the USSR and the PRC had hostile relations since the beginning of the 60s. Support for the USSR can only be said about the civil war in China. On the contrary, only under the threat of direct intervention of the USSR, the PRC withdrew its troops from Vietnam.
                  Quote: Kostya Andreev
                  because such victories are present in many countries, which no one considers powers

                  This is completely incomprehensible. The PRC took away part of the territory that India and Vietnam consider theirs. How many countries have such victories? Such countries simply do not exist.
                  And then it’s not clear what you want to say with your strange theses,
                  The fact is that the PLA troops have successfully acted in all conflicts since the 45th year, despite all their many shortcomings. The fact is that the PLA is now incomparably stronger than in the 50s and 80s.
                  The fact is that now only the United States can plan a sea and air war against the PRC, and no one can conceive of a land war.
                  To deny this is to completely fall out of reality.
              2. Disorder
                Disorder 25 September 2016 17: 22
                0
                Quote: Odyssey
                Sino-Vietnamese War-1979. Victory "on points". The Chinese left the territory of Vietnam under the pressure of the USSR.

                And the United States also won "on points" and left under the pressure of the USSR?
                1. Odysseus
                  Odysseus 25 September 2016 21: 38
                  +4
                  Quote: Trouble
                  And the United States also won "on points" and left under the pressure of the USSR?

                  No, let me remind you that the United States directly fought in Vietnam, relying on the state of South Vietnam. Northern Vietnam threw the Americans into the sea and eliminated South Vietnam. The USSR sent weapons and specialists to Vietnam, but did not directly intervene in the conflict.
                  In the case of the Sino-Vietnamese war, Chinese troops were on the territory of Vietnam (which again fought with Soviet support) and left on their own (and not as a result of the actions of the Vietnamese troops) after the threat of direct intervention by the Soviet army in the form of an attack by the PRC from Mongolia and Far East .. At the same time, of course, China did not suffer any territorial losses.
                  However, I agree that from the point of view of the Vietnamese, this is a victory in the form of a reflection of Chinese aggression.
                  1. Disorder
                    Disorder 25 September 2016 22: 49
                    +1
                    Quote: Odyssey
                    North Vietnam threw the Americans into the sea and eliminated South Vietnam.

                    Do you yourself believe that? Threw into the sea a group of several hundred thousand (excluding the South Vietnamese army), which has a tremendous advantage in aviation.
                    If this were so, then the Chinese troops would be knocked out like a cork.

                    All this window dressing with the teachings has some specific goals. Well, I believe that all the time the PLA stupidly increased its strength, ignoring strategy and tactics.
                    1. Odysseus
                      Odysseus 26 September 2016 00: 22
                      +4
                      Quote: Trouble
                      Do you yourself believe that? Threw into the sea a group of several hundred thousand (excluding the South Vietnamese army), which has a huge advantage in aviation

                      But this is not a matter of faith, it is a fact. Of course, America did not fight "in full force", but nevertheless they were kicked out of there, and South Vietnam was liquidated.
                      Quote: Trouble
                      If this were so, then the Chinese troops would be knocked out like a cork.

                      Yes, here in your words there is truth. Neither China nor Vietnam really fought. I agree that there are incomprehensible and uninitiated questions on the issue of the "first socialist". If you do not quite make ends meet.
                      1. Disorder
                        Disorder 26 September 2016 01: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: Odyssey
                        But this is not a matter of faith, it is a fact. Of course, America did not fight "in full force", but nevertheless they were kicked out of there, and South Vietnam was liquidated.

                        The fact that China was kicked out of Vietnam is also a fact. They slipped in, gotten to the teeth, drew conclusions and got out.
  4. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 24 September 2016 10: 36
    +5
    don’t know about nuclear weapons! but the fact that a large number of Chinese did not save them from constant sticks from neighbors, and the occupation of their territory is a fact. Japanese, Vietnamese, Russians, British, Germans and all and sundry.
    I do not consider China militarily a serious power.
    Now my opponents will begin to cite figures characterizing the number of weapons, personnel, mob. resources and stuff, I’ll remind you that the Chinese, despite having comparable weapons with their opponents (period late 19th, mid 20th centuries, not counting any red armbands, boxers, etc.), and surpassing them in mobresource. constantly suffered defeats and fulfilled the conditions of the winner.
    It seems to me that now nothing has changed. You can equip the army with the most modern weapons, and teach the soldiers to make terrible faces, but all historical experience testifies to "no horse feed" if we look at the history of countries that determine world politics, then they always have loud victories and serious defeats, and China does not. (border conflicts such as Damansky do not count).
    1. xetai9977
      xetai9977 24 September 2016 10: 43
      +4
      Before, Jews were also not considered warriors. So what? Say this to the Arab neighbors of Israel. Nothing is eternal under the Moon
      1. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 24 September 2016 11: 44
        +7
        When were they not considered warriors? as far as I remember the wars of the Jews in ancient Rome, were for the empire a big constant problem. and before Rome, the Jews also did not chew snot. In the Middle Ages, Jewish militancy as an ethnic group began to decline (because there is no land and state, there is nothing to protect). And in modern times, Jews fought very well both in World War I and in World War II. And now they have a state and they protect it, and very well.
        So the comparison is not correct.
  5. Disorder
    Disorder 24 September 2016 12: 02
    0
    The Chinese are obscuring something. Most likely they are using NATO's trick - "Russia will conquer Europe in a matter of days"
  6. Pulya
    Pulya 24 September 2016 18: 20
    0
    Where is the analytics ???
    I read dry statistics ....
    1. GDV
      GDV 25 September 2016 11: 24
      0
      Analysts like this - China wants our territories, but is afraid of our nuclear weapons, and is afraid that if it gets into a conflict with us, it may get a stab in the back from a friend from across the ocean, which is very beneficial if we start fighting among ourselves (see WWII, these the parasites on our mountain have shattered the empire, learn from your mistakes), so China goes the other way, why fight, if in Russia all officials are corrupt, they get everything they want for money, I decipher it - citizenship, land, minerals, etc.
      And there are more and more of them, they are everywhere, and they also want our women because they have a shortage with them, in short they want to assimilate with us, in short, we are united by a common enemy, and this is called parity.
  7. Alekst
    Alekst 25 September 2016 09: 47
    0
    Probability is probability, that is, it is likely that they will trample, only after all, China is surrounded, to put it mildly, by countries that are not friendly to it, we will leave the countries of the former USSR outside the brackets, and that you directly think that China will trample on Russia, having in the rear of these same non-friends? Yes, yes, China has a large mobilization resource, but what will they feed it with? in wartime conditions, or do you think that the war will be fought only on the territory of Russia, and on the territory of China everything will be peaceful and blessed? so my opinion is that probability will remain probability, and you just need to study it, just in case of any probable case.
  8. Romans
    Romans 25 September 2016 17: 48
    +4
    What did the Chinese forget in Russia, our swamps and permafrost? All that they need from us, they have already bought for cut green paper and there is no reason for them to fight with us! The Chinese will not receive any dividends from the war with the Russian Federation. If you look at their preparations in more detail, they are now naval, and this indicates the southeast direction of possible expansion. What do we see if we look at the map ?! And we see here the weak India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, the countries of Oceania. Moreover, Australia and Antarctica are really prizes! All these probable opponents are weak, and nuclear retaliation cannot be expected from them. And finally dispel all doubts that the Chinese need? Fertile land with the right temperature, clean fresh water, fuel and women. In Russia there is only water and fuel, which they buy for dollars, we have big problems with land and women, there are a lot of technical problems with the first, and the second one is of insufficient quality (Chinese men without the second half have different estimates of up to 200 million). So draw conclusions!
    The only option in which the PRC will be forced to go into conflict with the Russian Federation is to switch the Russian Federation to the US side.
  9. murriou
    murriou 25 September 2016 23: 40
    +1
    Quote: Trouble
    Do you yourself believe that? Threw into the sea a group of several hundred thousand (excluding the South Vietnamese army), which has a tremendous advantage in aviation.

    However, it was.
    But this was at the cost of an incredible strain of the entire Vietnamese people, including partisans on the territory of South Vietnam, and with a significant participation of Soviet air defense specialists, restricting the freedom of strategic US aviation.

    Plus, the Americans were unprepared for losses. With a loss ratio of approximately 1:10, the Vietnamese considered their losses acceptable and the Americans monstrous.

    During the war with China, even a small fraction of such tension, the Vietnamese did not show.
    And the Chinese are accustomed to take their losses calmly.
    1. Disorder
      Disorder 26 September 2016 18: 14
      0
      The USA just left Vietnam. The factors you indicated led to this.
      But there is such a moment. Although the United States was at war with North Vietnam, they did not conduct offensive operations as a result of the Tonkin incident. The main losses the ground troops suffered from the actions of the partisans. In addition to sensitivity to casualties, the political situation in the United States should also be taken into account. In 1968, under the banner of ending the war, Nixon became president. In 69, the transfer of control over territories from US troops to the troops of South Vietnam begins, i.e. preparing the ground for exit. In 1973, the Paris Peace Agreement was signed, and the withdrawal of foreign troops from South Vietnam began. And only in 75, the troops of North Vietnam and the Viet Cong enter Saigon.
      And who was thrown into the sea?

      With China, the situation is different. The invading troops fought mainly with border guards and the militia. Regular units were in the second tier. So it turns out - the ground forces are starting to get stuck, it’s difficult to use aviation, the Vietnamese air defense not only trained at McCain. It is impossible to use the fleet as it was there - the Soviet ships of the Gulf of Tonkin were blocked tightly. After analyzing the situation and realizing that this is not India, and not Tibet, here, with the help of the USSR, they will kick out this way and that, they left themselves.
  10. Sergey777
    Sergey777 26 September 2016 06: 30
    0
    I apologize for the stupid question. And what minuses are no longer being put?
    1. murriou
      murriou 26 September 2016 07: 30
      0
      Yes, there is a new engine and new rules. K.O.
  11. Bongo
    Bongo 26 September 2016 09: 50
    +2
    Squadron pilots of this division use tactics from the arsenal of pilots in these countries and carry out radio exchanges in English, Vietnamese, Indian and Japanese.
    A strange statement, given that the Chinese "Aggressors" mainly fly on Russian-made fighters.
    1. Disorder
      Disorder 26 September 2016 13: 50
      0
      In general, nothing strange. Tactical techniques are being worked out. We have units depicting a likely enemy also fly on our machines. here another is strange in these statements. In most cases, units representing a likely adversary win. And this despite the fact that nothing radically new in the tactics of using aviation has been invented lately.
      1. Bongo
        Bongo 26 September 2016 17: 22
        +3
        Quote: Trouble
        In general, nothing strange. Tactical techniques are being worked out. We have units depicting a potential enemy also fly on our machines.
        Does the Russian Air Force have units on a permanent basis depicting a "potential enemy"? Can you tell me where?
        Strange, another, I quote:
        they use tactics from the arsenal of pilots in these countries and carry out radio exchanges in English, Vietnamese, Indian and Japanese.
        But in Russian, and they don’t study our methods? No.
        Quote: Trouble
        here another is strange in these statements. In most cases, units representing a likely adversary win. And despite the fact that nothing radically new in the tactics of using aviation has been invented lately.

        With this, everything is clear, the most experienced pilots are taken to the "Aggressors". In the USA "Aggressors" flying on old F-5E and "Kfirs" often take over the most modern fighters in maneuverable air battles.
        1. Disorder
          Disorder 26 September 2016 19: 11
          0
          Quote: Bongo
          Are there units in the Russian Air Force that represent "potential adversaries"? Can you tell me where?

          What, no? In any case, someone should play a "conditional enemy". The question is in the level of detail of this "enemy".
          Here another question arises. If
          "... carry out radio communications in English, Vietnamese, Indian and Japanese"
          (and for sure there is in Russian, only this is not advertised), then what kind of "animals" are they who know so many tactical techniques of various "opponents"?

          Quote: Bongo
          With this, everything is clear, the most experienced pilots are taken to the "Aggressors". .....

          Experienced pilots, tankers, etc., can prevail in a particular battle. But
          In 2015, the units of the likely adversary defeated the forces of the "red" in almost all stages. This result meant an extremely low level of training commanders. The results of the 2016 of the year (units of the "red" forces were able to overcome the advanced positions of the "blue" in 50% of episodes) showed that the leadership of the SV PLA took measures aimed at improving the quality of combat training.
          attention is focused on the low level of training of commanders.
          And what happens? The units of the "probable enemy" get the best composition, and the main troops act as a pear. Somehow strange for the country in which the treatise "The Art of War" was written.
          1. Bongo
            Bongo 26 September 2016 19: 43
            +2
            Quote: Trouble
            What, no? In any case, someone must play a "conditional enemy".

            In contrast to the PRC and the USA, as far as I know, there are no specialized units of this kind in our Air Force.
            Quote: Trouble
            attention is focused on the low level of training of commanders.
            And what happens? The units of the "probable enemy" get the best composition, and the main troops act as a pear. Somehow strange for the country in which the treatise "The Art of War" was written.

            Air battles "pair for pair" are won by the one who possesses the best piloting technique, knows the capabilities of his own aircraft and the opposing side, and is more competent in battle tactics. We kind of talked about the Air Force, and here is the SV. what However, in exercises, units of any military branch must fight a strong enemy, otherwise the meaning of the exercises is lost.
            1. Disorder
              Disorder 26 September 2016 22: 03
              0
              Quote: Bongo
              In contrast to the PRC and the USA, as far as I know, there are no specialized units of this kind in our Air Force.

              There is no such. And they are not needed. The most efficient subunits are selected for the role of "probable enemy". And to arrange fights of courtyard teams with touring masters of sports. ?????
              1. Bongo
                Bongo 27 September 2016 08: 09
                +1
                Quote: Trouble
                And arrange battles of yard teams with touring masters of sports. ?????

                The whole point of specialized units designed to imitate the enemy is precisely that the Air Force does not have "yard teams".
  12. Odysseus
    Odysseus 26 September 2016 17: 19
    +1
    Disorder,
    Between the complete defeat of the South Vietnamese forces and the withdrawal of the PLA on its territory on its own initiative (and not due to military defeat), a huge distance.
    And I draw your attention to the fact that Vietnam (with the support of the USSR) was able to achieve the withdrawal of American troops and only then defeated the army of South Vietnam.
    As for the strangeness of this war, I believe that the PRC leadership initially set itself limited military goals, the main goals were political in nature (distracting Vietnam from Kampuchea, assuring the Americans of the PRC’s resolve to fight Soviet influence).
    After the threat of a transition to a global war arose (the mobilization of Vietnam, Soviet military preparations), the PRC leadership immediately curtailed the operation.
    1. Disorder
      Disorder 26 September 2016 18: 23
      0
      Quote: Odyssey

      Sino-Soviet "incidents" 1969. The PRC's aggression was repulsed.
      Sino-Vietnamese War-1979. Victory "on points". The Chinese left the territory of Vietnam under the pressure of the USSR.

      In one case - "aggression is reflected", in the other - "victory on points", but in fact the same thing.
  13. Smooth
    Smooth 27 September 2016 19: 43
    +1
    Here, some colleagues raise concerns about the Chinese threat. In this regard, I have a simple question.

    Why should China attack Russia?

    Do the Chinese have little territory? So they can’t populate their own, northern China. No one wants to live in the north. In the north of China, mind you, not in the Khabarovsk Territory.
    Do they need Siberian minerals? You will laugh, but China is one of the first places in the world for the wealth of its mineral resources. They only have little oil and gas. But "little" does not mean "not at all". Africa is much more interesting for them in terms of minerals. So they are actively pursuing economic expansion in Africa.
    What other reasons are there for the attack? They "don't like us so much that they can't eat"? So there is no motive for such an attitude. The Chinese remember very well who defeated the Kwantung Army. And the territorial disputes that led to the conflict at Damanskoye have already been settled.

    In general, if anyone knows what else there are reasons for the war between Russia and China, then it would be interesting to know them.

    For me, as long as the United States is strong, China is our natural ally. Both in the economy and in the military sphere.