Swedish Defense Ministry will buy more Archer 24 self-propelled guns

The Swedish Defense Ministry has decided to order more 24 self-propelled 155-mm / 52 Archer howitzers on wheels produced by BAE Systems Bofors, which were previously intended for the Norwegian Armed Forces, the blog reports bmpd with reference to the magazine "Jane's Defense Weekly".

The first four serial 155-mm / 52 self-propelled howitzers BAE Systems Bofors Archer (FH77BW L52) entered service with the 191 artillery battery of the 91 artillery battalion of the 9 artillery regiment of the Swedish army. Boden, February 2016 of the year

The Swedish government will allocate $ 2017 million (53 million crowns) to 450 for the purchase of additional weapons.

The author recalls that “In 2009, the Swedish Defense Purchasing Authority FMV entered into a joint contract with BAE Systems Bofors for the supply of X-NUMX's Archer self-propelled systems (FH24BW L77, Swedish military designation Artillerisystem 52) to each country for the benefit of the governments of Sweden and Norway, but at the end of 08 Norway refused to purchase ACS, motivating it with delays in the program and problems with system characteristics. ”

It is noted that all self-propelled guns are part of the only in Sweden 9-th artillery regiment stationed in the north of the country.

Delivery of additional SAU is scheduled for 2020.

Comments

[Sagitta]

He quickly shot back and ran away) I think 20 shells. So say the artillery STELS))) Plus the wheeled chassis is much cheaper to operate)))

[xetai9977]

Great car! There are no words.

[dmi.pris1]

Swedish Bofors has always produced very good guns.

[Lopatov]

A miserable semblance of MLRS.

Horse in a vacuum. That’s what happens when the techies when developing a model of weapons do not bother with the fact that the self-propelled guns are designed primarily for warfare, and not so that they, the developers, could show off their originality.

Moreover, for the second time they managed to step on the same rake, having created the most original, but at the same time useless self-propelled artillery installation. "Bandkanon", the fastest in the world, was also in no hurry to buy. Never finding a tactical niche for her.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

A miserable semblance of MLRS.

How is it? MLRS - this is MLRS. Why then not a miserable semblance of a front-line bomber?
What kind of war are you "preparing" for?
This system can automatically aim the barrel at different targets during loading periods, and all these targets can be programmed before the first shot. Each goal has its own quantity.
If you are going to fight with the partisans, then such self-propelled guns are not needed. And yet, in this system, they did not seek to create "the fastest-firing in the world." But even without the rate of fire, it will be problematic to carry off the legs.
A great system for your goals. Sample for price / quality ratio.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

This system can automatically aim the barrel at different targets during loading periods, and all these targets can be programmed before the first shot.

This is all wonderful. But do you know how many shells are needed for this?

We will not touch on the main tasks of artillery, which these pseudo-self-propelled guns are simply unable to perform due to the small ammunition in the automatic loading system and the impossibility of firing from the ground. That is, shooting at squares, NZO / PZO in defense, artillery support for the attack - all this is excluded by default.

Only single targets. located openly. 300 shells each. 8)))))
That is, to defeat a lone machine gun, which does not give the brave Swedish infantry their heads, it is necessary to 14 Archer self-propelled guns, almost half of the planned number. eight)))

Moreover, the ammo carrying 20 rounds creates huge problems with the use of special shells. For example, an enemy column was found. What does the "German" PzH 2000 do? That's right, he hits the column with SPBE cassettes. What does Archer do? Oops, he goes to reload, unload the HE, load cassettes, and only then try to hit the column.
But there are a lot of such shells, starting with unpretentious smoke shells, and ending with high-tech REP

That is precisely why these chic self-propelled guns are present in the army in the amount of 4 pieces. And Norway and Croatia refused them.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

You have one solid assumption, and your own.
It is permissible to choose a position for shooting. Yes, in the taiga, or somewhere in the swamp, tracked vehicles will do better. To each his own in this world.
Small BC is used only for firing from one position. This does not mean that it all ends. Change the position, replenish the BC, and continue, but from a different position.
BC is loaded based on detected targets.
According to your version, suddenly, out of nowhere, an enemy column appears. This is the last war. Today the enemy column "suddenly" does not appear. And if it does, then you have problems with the means of observation, which means "guard!"
Once again, Archer, this is not a frontier system, and it does not fulfill all the tasks of artillery. It is impossible to embrace the immensity.
But they will be able to quickly arrive in a certain area and quickly shoot at the target discovered by any means of observation. Then, again, quickly, they move to the loading position of the new BC, and if necessary, they continue to carry out the old task from the new position.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

It is permissible to choose a position for shooting. Yes, in the taiga, or somewhere in the swamp, tracked vehicles will do better. To each his own in this world.

And where are the caterpillars ??? We are exclusively discussing the artillery unit, tactical and operational mobility is a topic for another conversation. By the way, even here "Archer" has nothing to brag about, even in comparison with other self-propelled guns on wheels.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

Small BC is used only for firing from one position. This does not mean that it all ends. Change the position, replenish the BC, and continue, but from a different position.
BC is loaded based on detected targets.

8)))
Did you know that Soviet self-propelled guns, starting with 2S1, do not shoot at all using a transportable ammo? For planned targets, for newly discovered ones ... only from the ground. Carried ammo on targets found during the movement. Essentially an emergency reserve. By the way, the Germans do the same. Against this background, "Archer" looks very unconvincing.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

Today the enemy column "suddenly" does not appear.

You have read fiction. And advertising booklets. Full knowledge of the enemy is an unattainable ideal. Even with the complete absence of opposition from the enemy. And now even ISIS baboons are trying to counteract intelligence.
If we recall Afghanistan and Iraq, the Americans did not even have complete information about the enemy, they managed to beat regularly on their own.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

You can not grasp the immensity.

Archer yes. The rest of the self-propelled guns do it.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

How is it? MLRS - this is MLRS. Why then not a miserable semblance of a front-line bomber?

Because the tactics of using this nedosAU is the same as that of MLRS. We shot 20 shells at one target, and went to load. And manually Only MLRS does it faster. 8))) are especially modern, with "container" loading.
Because a miserable likeness

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

What kind of war are you "preparing" for?

This is more a question for developers. I can not imagine a war in which it can be used. Even guerrillas to drive with her is uncomfortable.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

A great system for your goals. Sample for price / quality ratio.

8)))) Only there is no tactical niche for it.
Well, about the price / quality ... French "Caesar" was purchased in an amount of about 250 pieces. And it is cheaper with higher efficiency.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

You pull and conjecture. You have a compote of your own arguments. Put the question yourself and answer it yourself. And what is the pressure. Only on me your pressure does not work in any way. I admit only arguments, not spreading my fingers.
For one purpose from one of the BCs they themselves came up with for me, and they themselves answered. What I mentioned here, completely dismissed.
To demonstrate your case, put all your complaints about Archer in one list without any links to me (to separate flies from cutlets).
Then let's continue. Why arrange a bazaar?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

For one purpose from one of the BCs they themselves came up with for me, and they themselves answered. What I mentioned here, completely dismissed.

You probably read inattentively. Therefore, they did not understand that it was not for you that I am declaring about one BC for one purpose, this is the only possible option.

Moreover, even the transportable BK division of our 2С19 (18 X 50 shells) end-to-end is enough to suppress (not destroy) just one (!!!!!) platoon strong point.

So do you understand the scale of the problem? If 50 shells of a transportable ammunition shell are few, then what to do when there are only 20 of them?

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

put all your claims to Archer in one list

I already wrote. Microscopic transportable CD, which cannot be replenished during firing. Plus, the fundamental impossibility of firing from the ground (that is, when the transportable ammunition is not used, shells and charges supplied from outside the machine are loaded during firing.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Moreover, even the transportable BK division of our 2С19 (18 X 50 shells) end-to-end is enough to suppress (not destroy) just one (!!!!!) platoon strong point.

I don’t understand what kind of war you are talking about. That you in the war with the Americans will crush the platoon stronghold. Or a conversation about (suppose) the Chechen experience?
Will the Americans let you easily suppress? This will not happen. Forget it. To fight with them, this is not with Ukrainian nationalists. However, the counter-battery fight with the Ukrainian nationalists will be more difficult tomorrow than yesterday. Americans work. And I already answered you that a change of position does not mean the end of the task. During the replenishment of the BC, an analysis of the previous shooting is being carried out and adjustments are made, if necessary. Everything is stored in memory there. Archer's automated system will make this easy. It depends on the quality of the software, which is not hardware, and which can be constantly improved. And, I believe, it is obvious that the replenishment of the BC will not be beyond 100 km.
So, replenished BC - continue to complete the task from a new position. And if Archerov’s division, then such a merry-go-round will turn out,
They made microscopic CD based on the conditions of counter-battery combat with a strong enemy. The main task is to quickly leave (read the change) position. Such a BC was considered sufficient. We should have done more, tried to do more.
Shooting from the ground in the context of counter-battery combat with a strong enemy means people do not spare at all.
Ready to listen to your arguments.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

I don’t understand what kind of war you are talking about. That you in the war with the Americans will crush the platoon stronghold. Or a conversation about (suppose) the Chechen experience?

But what if the Americans have to give up right away?

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

Will the Americans let you easily suppress?

And who will ask them? It is enough to detect a couple of goals in order to combine them into a group and work through it as if it were a platoon strong point.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

This will not happen. Forget it. To fight with them, this is not with Ukrainian nationalists.

That is, immediately give up 8))) Your position is clear. So maybe not a sau worth buying, but a white cloth on the flags?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

During the replenishment of the BC, an analysis of the previous shooting is being carried out and adjustments are made, if necessary. Everything is stored in memory there. Archer's automated system will make this easy. It depends on the quality of the software, which is not hardware, and which can be constantly improved. And, I believe, it is obvious that the replenishment of the BC will not be beyond 100 km.

Cool.
Typically, the beginning of a fire raid on the same GP is timed to the exit of their tanks and infantry fighting vehicles at the line of sight of their ATGMs. And they finish with the release of their already dismounted infantry to the line of safe removal from the bursts of their shells.
All this is done so that during the fire raid no gifted person would crawl out over the parapet with some Javelin.
Where are you personally planning an intermission for reloading self-propelled guns?

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

They made microscopic CD based on the conditions of counter-battery combat with a strong enemy.

To counter the counter-battery struggle in modern self-propelled guns, they do not make microscopic ammunition, but a self-locking system and ASUNO. That allows you not to collect tools on one fire. And turning counter-battery war into counter-war. 8)))
A microscopic BC will not help here.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

Shooting from the ground in the context of counter-battery combat with a strong enemy means people do not spare at all.

On the contrary. It is pity for people. And not only artillerymen, but also infantry with tankers.

It is self-propelled guns, next to it 8 shells, two loaders from the ground. Before the start of firing, it cannot be detected by counter-battery means. We shoot the first firing raid. Chargers jump on the armor, leave the fire. We move to the place where 8 more shells lie, the loaders jump, we work them out, we move to the next eight. Shells at the points are laid out by soldiers from the supply compartment.
And the most interesting thing is that all this time the self-propelled artillery tank is full and always ready for use. It may contain special ammunition, for example, high-precision ones, and a sudden transition to another fire mission, for example, hitting target targets, or repelling an enemy’s armored counterattack, will not catch self-propelled guns with their pants down, and will not force them to drive the vehicle to a reloading point to replace shells.

This is the normal conveyor.
And what you described is the tactics of the MLRS. Only they lose less time on a fire raid, and reload much faster than the Archer. At least, NATO's dominant MLRS and its relatives.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

But what if the Americans have to give up right away?

Not. It’s not even interesting. But,

And who will ask them? It is enough to detect a couple of goals in order to combine them into a group and work through it as if it were a platoon strong point.

So they will work too. Moreover, they have more precision weapons, and with a strong enemy they will use it, first of all. In addition, they have the opportunity to organize a quantitative advantage. They have them a priori.
The fact that you are ready to resist them with conventional shells is wonderful.

Typically, the beginning of a fire raid on the same GP is timed to the exit of their tanks and infantry fighting vehicles at the line of sight of their ATGMs. And they finish with the release of their already dismounted infantry to the line of safe removal from the bursts of their shells.

So, you have already drawn a whole scenario of a real meat grinder. So, the Archers in your scenario are designed to prevent this meat grinder. As soon as you start a fire raid, so Archers begin to work for you. And you will continue to raid, and your calculations will work from the ground, and they will work according to your calculations.

Where are you personally planning an intermission for reloading self-propelled guns?

BC ended, here you have an intermission.

That allows you not to collect tools on one fire.

Collect weapons on one fire - archaism. Modern communication and information transfer systems, as well as positioning systems, can avoid this. And if more than one Archer takes part in the counter-weapon (if you want) fight, then I mentioned above that they are able to arrange a real carousel from different fire which cannot be repeated. It is not by chance that I used the word carousel.

This is the normal conveyor.

You do not want to admit that Archers will work just like that, constantly changing fire and replenishing the BC. Normal conveyor. Only Archer will have a higher speed.
And the following your assumption is not impressive:

Before the start of firing, it cannot be detected by counter-battery means.

I agree, but you have to try very hard to hide the SPG, and even more than one today. And if she shot at least once, then you can forget about "not being detected". Today you should prepare for war, assuming that you are constantly being seen. And the speed of movement in these conditions plays an important role.
Now, as for the MLRS. Compare the cost of firing conventional ammunition and adjustable ammunition, with the cost of guided and unguided rockets MLRS. Once again. Archers have the ability to spend their BC for different purposes and the guidance process can be carried out in parallel with the loading process.
This is how we "played out your script" with you. And I don't see any obvious flaws in the Archers, given their relatively low cost.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

So, you have already drawn a whole scenario of a real meat grinder. So, the Archers in your scenario are designed to prevent this meat grinder. As soon as you start a fire raid, so Archers begin to work for you.

Let them try. 1 division, 18 guns, 18x300 = 5400 shells. 270 "Archerov"... And that's just one division. Moreover, they move after each fire raid. Therefore, even such a number of "Archers" will not be able to guarantee the destruction of the division. eight)))

Moreover, "thanks" to the American, NATO's only means of determining the coordinates of firing guns is radar. The only remaining sound reconnaissance complex, the British, was removed from service last year. He was also used by the American Marines in the amount of several pieces. Removed from service five years ago. And the radar has big problems. These are not passive complexes. Therefore, they can be silenced or destroyed. The first artillery fire raid 8)))

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

BC ended, here you have an intermission.

For artillery. And the beginning of the speech for the enemy operators of portable anti-tank systems. Wow, they come off, while artillery does not bother them ....

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

And if more than one Archer takes part in the counter-weapon (if you want) fight, then I mentioned above that they are able to arrange a real carousel from different fire which cannot be repeated. It is not by chance that I used the word carousel.

Carousel ...
Cycle for "Archer":
The first firing raid - moving - the second firing raid - loading.
During the same time for 2S19
The first fire - moving - second - moving - third - moving - fourth - moving - ..... At the same time, the BC remains complete if you work from the ground. And even if the fire was carried out from the transported, then the 2S19 loads its 50 shells much faster than the "Archer" its 20. Thanks to the automation of this process and the presence of mechanisms for supplying shells and charges from the ground.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

Once again. Archers have the ability to spend their BC for different purposes and the guidance process can be carried out in parallel with the loading process.

Damn, you won't understand the simplest thing. To destroy or suppress any target, a certain number of projectiles are required. For example, for a single target, you need 300 of them. "Archers" have nothing to catch here. If they spend their BC shooting at several targets, then the task of such shooting can be considered not the standard "destruction" or "suppression", but "to scare, and if you are very lucky, to hit"

[Vladimir Postnikov]

The argument becomes meaningless. You have your own script, which is very similar to the scenario of the Second World War. You hold on to him very tightly and you have no doubt. In your scenario, the initiative is yours alone. You have suppressed all means of observing the enemy and are doing with it what you want. You have an infinite number of shells and your calculations are not destroyed.
It’s not by chance that the Swedes and Americans began to put devices controlling the position of the barrel in space after each shot, even on towed guns, in order to reduce the CWO and projectile consumption. And on Archer this is worth it.
It doesn't fit into your script. Just bring the shells to you and you do all of them even with a large CWO and old shell consumption tables. And it doesn’t matter that the specialists of TNITI (Tula Scientific Research Technological Institute) shout guard, the shells end. What does this have to do with your scenario? Nothing. Let's end this pointless argument. Time will tell who was right. Time is an honest man.

[Franciscan]

and the roads do not spoil

[KUOLEMA]

It would be better if the skis were bought and asthma drugs were not to be caught up with them, like the Norwegians.

[Mountain shooter]

Good guns. To play around. For war, you need tracked self-propelled guns. But these Swedes are NOT GOING to fight with anyone. They calmly saw the budget, puffing it with imaginary threats.

[uskrabut]

The fact of the matter is that they do not saw the budget. This fluff was not made from an old 155-mm towed howitzer. Those. Instead of recycling, they put it on a Volvo and voila - an artillery self-propelled cart, naughty at 6 shots in 25 seconds for 60 km. That's cool!

[uav80]

those. The Swedes first wrote off all the Bofors FH77B due to the exhaustion of the barrel resource, and then they made a completely new weapon of them - what kind of miracles are they .. ?? The "archers" are equipped with completely new modernized FH77BW guns of 52 caliber length, and not 39 as on the FH77B ... they were like the old guns stretching chtol ...
PS: if in 2011 the Swedes would not have been completely without artillery, then there would be no archer ...

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Good guns. To play around. For war, you need tracked self-propelled guns. But these Swedes are NOT GOING to fight with anyone. They calmly saw the budget, puffing it with imaginary threats.

Sweden is a relatively small country with a population of less than 10 million people (less than Moscow alone). And this country creates good weapons, including Archer, and submarines, and airplanes, and small arms.
The Swedes have not fought with anyone for a long time. The Swiss, by the way, too. But both those and others carefully take care of their aircraft.
In short, as the respected ace Pushkin said, "judge my friend no more than a boot."

[Sfurei]

Precisely because they are a small country, they are mainly engaged in the modernization of old weapons. According to Archer: a good self-propelled gun for a European theater. The base is too long for only three pairs of wheels, i.e. neither normally turn between obstacles, nor drive off-road. We should study the automatic loader, maybe we’ll take something interesting for ourselves.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

We should study the automatic loader, maybe we’ll take something interesting for ourselves.

Exactly. The design, and, as a result, the reliability of this unit is the most interesting in this system.

As for the long base. The long trunk is a long base. In the taiga and dense forest they will not pass. And where else are such conditions? They are not rigidly attached to any point when choosing a position. They will shoot from where they can get.
Please note that the trunk is not only fastened, but also covered.

[Lopatov]

It is necessary for them to study with us, and not vice versa.
Not only the "Coalition", the "Msta" automatic loader is much more effective. Despite the fact that charges have to be formed on it manually.

[Franciscan]

And why tracked for Europe, they have a lot of good roads on which such wheeled carts can be quickly thrown. without bothering with tractors and other things. The firing range for caterpillars and for wheels is the same, only caterpillars can have better armor.

[Zaurbek]

How do they change charges, I wonder ....?

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Here this Archer was already discussed a little no further, as three days ago in the comments to the article "Field Cannon Artillery of Russia".
https://topwar.ru/100615-polevaya-stvolnaya-artil
leriya-rossii.html

[Leonid Har]

Do they think this will help them? Let them listen to the British general.

[gray smeet]

Quote: Leonid Har

Do they think this will help them? Let them listen to the British general.

Urya !! Urya !!! Urya !!! - not tired?

A good self-propelled gun - there is something for us to "wind up" ....

[Leonid Har]

1 shell for $ 85000 in conditions of GPS suppression and active use of electronic warfare equipment? And where will they shoot them?

[Vladimir Postnikov]

And where will they shoot them?

An automated guidance system allows you to control the position of the barrel after each shot. You have cereal in your head, judging by these two of your comments.

[Leonid Har]

Sorry, $ 144000 cost Excalibur in 2012. Now it has probably risen in price.
So what? The trunk itself is pointing at 60 km or who is pointing it? I wonder who will allow to shoot like in a shooting gallery, expensive shells in a war?

[Franciscan]

cheaper polonaise how to crave for this distance. and there will be more sense.

[dmi.pris1]

What will it help from? From Russian submarines it just will not help .. Only Pokemon catchers will save from them ..

[Vladimir Postnikov]

From what help? From Russian submarines just will not help.

Does Russia intend to attack Sweden? I hear it for the first time.
By the way, are the "Calibers" supposed to be under the threat of Russian submarines? Do you know the cost of one "Caliber"? Do you have any idea about the technological possibilities of their mass production?
Suppose you release even a hundred "Calibers" in Sweden, so what? Do you think there will be no more Sweden?
Take time to ponder these questions. Then write.

[Berkut752]

There were 18 wars between Russia and the Swedes, the result for the Swedes was deplorable:
Years Name Winner
1142-1164 First Swedish Crusade Novgorod Republic
1187 March on the capital Sigtuna Novgorod Republic
1240-1250 Second Swedish Crusade Novgorod Republic
1293-1295 Third Swedish Crusade No
1311-1323 Swedish-Novgorod war Novgorod Republic
1348-1349 Fourth Swedish Crusade Novgorod Republic
1375-1396 Minor border conflicts No
1479-1482 Russo-Swedish War Grand Duchy of Moscow
1495-1497 Russo-Swedish war No
1554-1557 Russo-Swedish War Russia
1563-1583 Livonian War Sweden and the Commonwealth
1590-1595 Russo-Swedish War Russia
1614-1617 Russo-Swedish War Sweden
1656-1658 Russo-Swedish War Russia
1700-1721 Great Northern War Russia
1741-1743 Russo-Swedish War Russia
1788-1790 Russo-Swedish war No
1808-1809 Finnish War Russia

[The leader of the Redskins]

That's interesting - the Swedes make a couple of dozen COMPLETELY domestic self-propelled guns - not weak, but here ... Either there is no running gear, then something else ... And in general - twenty-four pieces are not worth the candle, so if only a couple of thousand cut "...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

That's interesting - the Swedes make a couple of dozen FULLY domestic SPGs

Uh ... Which Swedes? BAE Systems was originally a British company, now transnational.

[vomag]

Well, where do the Swedes go? I don’t buy paladins! I think they did Archer for a specific region and specific tasks .. And in general, from this whole venture some kind of partisanism blows ....

[Lopatov]

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

You have your own script, which is very similar to the scenario of the Second World War.

Tanks and infantry fighting vehicles against long-range ATGMs including the third generation, the Second World War scenario? How interesting.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

In your scenario, the initiative is yours alone.

Should it belong to the Americans?

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

You suppressed all means of observing the enemy and do what you want with him

Of course. If otherwise, then we do not advance, but quietly sit on the defensive.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

It’s not by chance that the Swedes and Americans began to put devices controlling the position of the barrel in space after each shot, even on towed guns, in order to reduce the CWO and projectile consumption.

Y-yes ... Let's start with the fact that the artillery shells do not have "KVO". Generally.
Monitoring the position of the barrel in space has a minimal contribution to reducing dispersion due to Her Majesty's Atmosphere. Which, in fact, makes the main contribution

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

Just bring the shells to you and you do all of them even with a large CWO and old shell consumption tables.

The old ones? I agree. In mind, they need to be increased due to a significant increase in the protection of targets from the time of their creation. The times when a single fragment was guaranteed to incapacitate an enemy soldier were long gone.

But there are still no systems that can determine the density of air and wind at any point on the projectile trajectory with high accuracy. Even in statics. But in the atmosphere there are a bunch of local anomalies like microbursts.

Quote: Vladimir Postnikov

Time will tell who was right.

Time has already shown. Compare the purchases of the Archers and the French Caesars, and you will understand everything.