Anatoly Klesov: "DNA genealogy reveals the secrets of Veneti and Venedov"

Venets and Veneds are tribes that many consider to be Old Slavic, and which occupied or moved in vast territories from the Baltic to the Adriatic seas and to the Atlantic coast, as well as in Asia Minor.

Their oldest descriptions refer to Lydia in the west of Asia Minor, and to historical Three (off the coast of the Aegean Sea), which fell around 1260 BC
They were written about by Herodotus, Pomponius Mela, Pliny the Elder, Tacitus, Ptolemy, Jordan, Procopius. They are often called “Eastern Wends” and are located in the territories from the Baltic (between the Vistula, Daugava, Upper Dnieper) and the lower reaches of the Danube, passing through the northern Carpathians. Their Slavic origin, as a rule, is not disputed. Moreover, they take the genealogical connection between the Wends and the ancient Slavs of the second half of the 1st millennium AD, including the Antes and the Claves.

Since the task of this essay is not to give exhaustive information on the Veneti and the Veneds, but to show what DNA genealogy can offer for consideration, we proceed to the DNA Y-chromosome strings supposedly left by the ancient Venets and their descendants.

There are no fossil DNAs of venets and / or veneds yet, so we will consider what our contemporaries have. The main question that we will consider here is who the Venetians-Venets were supposed to be in their haplogroups, and who their descendants are now.

The most pronounced and diverse among the Slavs - in relation to the branches of haplogroups - is the haplogroup R1a. In a study (Rozhanskii & Klyosov, Advances in Anthropology, 2012), 38 branches of the R1a haplogroup were identified in Europe. With rare exceptions, they begin (or continue) on the Russian Plain, with a common ancestor about 4900 years ago, but diverge along branches, whose common ancestors lived from the second half of the XNUMXnd millennium BC, and throughout the XNUMXst millennium BC. AD

Exceptions are the Old European branch (rooted in Europe on 7-8 thousands of years ago), the north-western branches (R1a-L664, the common ancestor lived more than 5 thousands of years ago), the Scandinavian branches (R1a-Z284, the common ancestor lived more 5 thousands of years ago), southeastern branches (R1a-Z93, common ancestor lived more than 5 thousands of years ago), migrated south (through the Caucasus to Mesopotamia, like Mitanni arias), to the southeast (and further to the Iranian plateau , as the Avestan arias) and to the east (and further south, to Hindustan, as the Indo-Aryans).

In general, there are about 20 branches of the haplogroup R1a, which are to the Baltic or the Carpathians, and which can be considered as candidates for Vened and / or Veneti.

Haplogroup I2a, expressed in southern Slavs, appeared after passing the bottleneck of the population, only at the end of the last era, and in the Baltic States there is little. This is an extremely unlikely candidate for Venetian Venetians.

The I1 haplogroup, which the Slavs currently have little, is also unlikely for Venetian venites. Of the 1052 haplotypes of the I1 group for which the country of origin is known (project FTDNA), total 28 in Poland (2.7%), 25 in Russia (2.4%), 5 in Ukraine (0.5%), three in Belarus and the same in Lithuania ( 0.3%), one by one in Serbia and Slovenia. Total I8 1 haplotypes from this sample in Italy (0.8%), 19 - in France (1.8%). Data from a recent sample of 1094 haplotypes in Belgium showed that the haplogroup I1-M253 was found there in 127 people, which is 11.6%. However, this is already the north-western sector of Europe, where the haplogroup I1 is most represented in the neighboring Scandinavian countries.

If additional evidence is obtained that weeds may be belonging to the haplogroup I1, then this possibility should be carefully considered. While this, we repeat, is unlikely. It should also be added that the haplogroups I1 (throughout Europe) and I2a (in Eastern Europe) are evenly distributed “over all”, and each has one common ancestor. In other words, there are no preferences for the host region of the common ancestors of I1 or I2a. Haplotypes are the same everywhere, the common ancestor of I1 is one for all in all of Europe, and I2a is one for all in Eastern Europe.

Considering the branches of the R1a haplogroup, it makes sense when looking for descendants of the Venetian-Venetov to pay attention to the following requirements: the most dense accumulation of carriers of this branch (or subclade) in the Carpathian-Baltic region, the presence of representatives of the same branch in Italy, and possibly in Brittany or on the coast of France.

Problems with such search criteria begin already in Italy. There are generally few haplogroup R1a, total 4% in the country, and 4.5% in the north of Italy. Italian R1a, respectively, are few and among the carriers of this haplogroup in Europe.

Note that all six Serbian haplotypes in the IRAKAZ database were from the North Carpathian branch (SC-1). Bosnian 12 haplotypes (SK-1) from 14 (the other two are Baltic L366 and Balto-Carpathian BK-1. Of the ten haplotypes of Croat, seven Balto-Carpathian (BK-2), and one Eastern Carpathian, and one Western Carpathian and Central European (M458). Such a relative abundance of haplotypes of the North Carpathian and other Carpathian branches on the Adriatic allows you to take a fresh look at the relative excess of Carpathian haplotypes in Italy (including Balto-Carpathian) - 10 haplotype of twenty, that is half.

Thus, the link between the Baltic territories and the Adriatic coast no longer seems to be something far-fetched, moreover, when ancient historians have descriptions of such a bundle. It is unlikely that anyone from the threshold will deny such a connection, and on the basis of what? Therefore, we take it as a working hypothesis that the haplotypes of the listed branches of the R1a haplogroup may be descendants of the ancient Venetian venites. It remains to determine the dating of the origin of these branches (more precisely, the times when their common ancestors lived), and who is now included in these branches, which dominant populations, from which countries. The main results of this analysis were very unexpected.

First, on the Adriatic (Balkans and Italy) the Baltic, northern (North Carpathian and North Eurasian) and Carpathian branches are represented or dominated, in which the Slavs are mainly represented (Poles and Russians).

Secondly, these Slavic branches have ancient common ancestors who lived in the 3rd millennium BC, the II millennium BC, the 1st millennium BC. No talk about the "birth of the Slavs" in the first centuries of our era, and even more so in the middle of the 1st millennium AD and can not be. The common ancestors of the modern (mostly) Slavic branches of the haplogroup R1a lived about 4900 years ago, at the beginning of the 3rd millennium BC.

Thirdly, it is not possible to isolate any specific “Venetian branch” from the branches of the R1a haplogroup. In all the Baltic, northern, Carpathian branches, Poles and Russians dominate, to a lesser extent Germans, still less Ukrainians and Belarusians, the rest are scattered throughout Europe in relatively minor quantities, and are not in fact representative in the Baltic, Carpathian and northern branches of the haplogroup R1a, the most likely descendants of the Wends and the Venets.

Fourthly, as a result of the third, the majority of modern Poles, Russians, Germans, Ukrainians, Belarusians of the R1a haplogroup can be considered descendants of the Weeds and Venets, although the relationship between the Venets and the Wends remains problematic due to the small number of carriers of the lengthy haplotypes of the R1a haplogroup in Italy.

We illustrate these points. First question - who could be the first Veneti of Troy and the Adriatic (according to ancient historians), if it was in the second half of the 2nd millennium BC, and if they belonged to the haplogroup R1a?

The subclade Z280 haplogroup R1a was formed about 4900 years ago. This is the so-called “subclade of the Russian Plain”. It accounts for 30% of all carriers of the R1a haplogroup in the IRAKAZ database containing 4049 haplotypes with identified snippets. The remaining main subclades of the haplogroup R1a are Scandinavian Z284 (27%), European L458 (16%), south-eastern Z93 (14%) and European North-Western L664 (10%).

In other words, the common ancestor of the Slavs haplogroup R1a, namely, they constitute the majority of the Z280 subclade, lived on the Russian Plain about 5000 years ago. There can be no talk about how they came from Dacia in the 2 century of our era. It is possible, however, that historians understand the Slavs as carriers of the haplogroup I2a (without understanding, of course, what I2a is and what the haplogroup is), and then it can be. Indeed, the haplogroup I2a was revived at the end of the last era (after passing through the bottleneck of the population, the period of which lasted about two thousand years), and was revived, apparently, on the Danube and the Carpathians.

The Carpathians were in the center of Dacia. But this is the youngest group of Slavs. Historians, in their limitless wisdom, are locked in precisely this very young, Danube Slavic group, and take it for all the Slavs of the 1st millennium AD. And Slavic languages ​​lead from this group, and the history of the Slavs, and from there the dating of the 5th-6th centuries appears. AD as "the appearance of the Slavs in the historical arena." But these are mainly (or only) Slavs of the haplogroup I2a. The Slavs of the haplogroup R1a are not taken into account. And they have a history two and a half millennia old.

Where did the ideas of historians come from? Basically - from the same "Tale of Bygone Years", which was already mentioned above, and according to which (or interpreting which) historians derive Slavs from Illyria, now from Pannonia, now from Dacia, then from Norik on the eastern slope of the Alps. And as a result of these findings, taking into account the archeology of those places (which also most likely belonged to the Slavs of the I2a haplogroup), historians laid the foundations of the Slavs in the 5th-6th centuries. ad.

As soon as we comprehend and accept the relationship between the southern Slavs of the haplogroup I2a and the eastern Slavs of the haplogroup R1a, many contradictions are resolved - and the fact that the Slavs are much older than they are attributed by modern historians, and the close relationship of the Eastern Slavs (haplogroup of R1a) to the traditional aryrs, and the horny-old and old art historians. , and the close relationship of the Eastern Slavs with the Scythians, close relatives of the Aryans, and the correct understanding of the terms "Avestani Aryans" (they are also "Iranians"), "Indo-Aryans", "Mitanni Aryans", not as linguistic terms s, as well as hereditary, genealogy, showing a generic touch with modern ethnic Russian.

And ethnic Russians are, by definition, those for whom the Russian language is native, as was native for their ancestors for generations inland, and who live on the territory of the modern Russian Federation within the boundaries of the historic Russian State.

The common ancestor of the North Eurasian subclade Z92 lived almost a thousand years before the Trojan War, and his descendants, with the descendants of the two main descending subclades, could easily have made up a contingent of Venets - except, of course, the youngest subclades.

So, if the subclade R1a-Z92 is really Venetian, and its common ancestor lived at the junction of III and II thousand BC, its subsidiaries 3100-3200 DNA lines years ago, that is, approximately at the end of II thousand BC. er, it does not contradict the testimony of ancient historians. The older DNA line, Z92, currently includes descendants mainly from Poland (36%), Russia (20%), Germany, Ukraine, and Lithuania (7%), the rest of the haplotypes (23% of all) are single by ten regions of Europe. Younger DNA lines have a different population structure, and include the haplotypes of Russia (52%), Ukraine, Poland, and Lithuania (8%), Belarus and Finland (6%), England (4%), the rest are single haplotypes ( in Germany, in contrast to the old branch, only three haplotypes of one and a half hundred).

So the assignment of the Venetian haplotypes from the beginning of the second millennium BC. Germany to baseless. They are of Eastern Slavic origin, with the exception of inclusions on the territory of modern England and Finland.

Comments

[kumaxa]

I don’t understand something at all! what is the article about !!

[Bashibuzuk]

Yes, nothing.
The fact that the haplogroup I1B as well as I2a are very young.
Somewhere they hid for 3000 years, then pretended to be Dacians, and in the end they became Romanians.
Gypsies, in short.
And they don’t pull on Russians.
And we Russians, that is, we are hoo.
everyone was defeated, everyone was defeated. We lived 5 thousand years ago.
They all inseminated, which is why they fled to Eurasia.
...
Yes, such articles are good for narrow scholars.
And we ... tuta ... widescreen.

[lelikas]

And we Russians, that is, we are hoo.
everyone was defeated, everyone was defeated. We lived 5 thousand years ago.
They all inseminated, which is why they fled to Eurasia.
- Thank ! Actually more accessible than in the article.

[avt]

Quote: kumaxa

what is the article about !!

In short, about the fact that Genetics is a corrupt girl of imperialism.

[Rozmyssel]

It is difficult to dispute the facts with the very founder of this new science. By the very fact of the trace in the genome from father to son on the y-chromsome, one can already say there is no doubt that such a relationship has been identified and this connection can be traced. Perhaps it is possible to dispute only chronological calculations, the change in the rate of DNA mutations from which the whole genus then comes, but only to specialist geneticists who comprehend the essence of the method, but for now we will doubt these THOUSAND YEARS. It is very possible that the human race is much younger.
Well, for the traditional historical science of DNA, Klesov’s GENEALOGY is a verdict. By the way, in vain Klesov says that the Wends are Slavs and this is not disputed by TI, even as disputed by tishniks there is not a single general opinion on any particular issue, there is only a general concept of history and for her traditions will lay down with bones.

[venaya]

Quote: Thought

... for traditional historical science of DNA - Klesov GENEALOGY is a sentence ...

I completely agree with your statement!
What are the so-called "historical studies" based on? Yes, only on what we managed to leave to our ancestors in the form of written sources, and they were just, the so-called "historians", simply and mercilessly, by order, were actively destroyed. Concerning Venets / Wends, Slavs, Slovens, Sklav, Russians and Rus / Rus (and the Germans too) - this is how the active phase of endless substitutions of basic, defining concepts still continues here. Hence follows the main task of custom-made confusers ("historians") - to mislead the bulk of researchers interested in this topic. I believe that DNA - Hinealogy is able to help at least a little to unravel such an intricate tangled tangle, and in this I see the prospect and the main task of the new scientific direction.

[OLD FART]

Article bullshit ... The most ancient are Kyrgyz!)))) And also the ancient Ukrainians, the ancient Chechens, etc. .... Everything fell under the table))))

[Papapg]

If you look from the side, it turns out that the Kyrgyz are closest to primates, our ancestors monkeys ...

[Aposlya]

Quote: Papapg

If you look from the side, it turns out that the Kyrgyz are closest to primates, our ancestors monkeys ...

And if you look from the point of view of Klesov, then the Kyrgyz are more Slavs than the Russians themselves - the Kyrgyz have up to 80% R1a ....

[Rarog]

And if you read Klyosov carefully, you can understand that R1a in the Russians and R1a in the Kirghiz is not the same R1a.

[Operator]

Kazakh Aposlya is not something to read, count is not trained - gene pool
Kyrgyz: R1a (arias) 55%, C2 (Mongols) 25%, O (Chinese) 9%.

The subclade Z93 of the haplogroup R1a of the Aryans is a subsidiary of the parent subclade Z283 of the haplogroup R1a of the Protoarii, which directly entered the gene pool of Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians.

[Aposlya]

Quote: Operator

The subclade Z93 of the haplogroup R1a of the Aryans is a subsidiary of the parent subclade Z283 of the haplogroup R1a of the protoaries,

You see, completely on the "Mine Camphus" already crazy. It's time to make a lobotomy our homebrew Aryan!

[Rarog]

Oh, the Russians are again accused of all mortal sins, not even surprising. Anyone can study their history, traditions, genus (DNA genealogy) - this is so natural, but not for Russians, because in the case of the Russian people, such interest is unambiguous chauvinism and here it clearly smacks of "Mein Kampf". And if the Russian also openly discusses these topics with other people ... - then there is an absolute manifestation on his part of aggression, Nazism, fascism and other atrocities in relation to all other nationalities, undoubtedly white and fluffy. And at the end, in order to oholon these presumptuous Russians, it is worth adding that there are no Russians left at all, there are Germans, Kazakhs - there are French, Dutch, Han, etc., and Russians - no. Right?! My post, probably, also falls under some kind of infringement of your rights on my part ... although why did I ask this question ?! Of course it does, I'm Russian!

[Operator]

Aposlya, damn it, why are you spinning on the Russian site and hang labels?

Step march to your Kazakh and that your spirit was not here.

[Aposlya]

You will give directions to your wife!

[Drshan]

Something they reminded me of the hardened.

[trantor]

Reason and venaya

Strong, tramps, not only read to the end and the brain did not swim. Also oppose

I did not advance beyond the first sentence of the first paragraph. Maybe because in the morning? ... Although, did not abuse yesterday.

[PKK]

Grieved, there is a wide topic that the Roman Empire was built in Etruscan, then went to the north and the Romans came. The Etruscans had a similar language to the Slavic. And according to the article, the Etruscans were 4%, maybe there were actually a few and few of them what's left.
The Europeans will begin to gnash their teeth when they learn that they have spun off from the Russians. It is time to lower the proud pheasants to Earth.

[venaya]

Quote: PKK

Sorry, there is wide topic, that ROME built Etruscan, then went north and the Romans came. The Etruscan language was akin to Slavic. And according to the article, there were 4% Etruscans

Thanks for the comment: Here, he is a shining example of how confusing people can be without giving precise definitions of the basic concepts used. I'll try to disassemble it in parts: the term "Ztruski" is of Latin origin, that is, a later one, introduced later, after they renamed the Russian-language term "Rome" in their own way / Latin - "Roma". They themselves hardly called themselves that, but used their own terms "scatter" and, or "Slovenia"(possibly Venets / Wends, + Trojans). During the founding and initial construction of Rome, there were clearly more than 4% percent of them. How much? - according to my data, the figure is classified, otherwise unpleasant questions will arise to someone, Klyosov actually publishes only the current state of affairs. About the fact that not only the Ztrusks, but also their "changers" of the Latinas since the XI-th century "left" representatives from Arabia - such information passed in some sources. About the fact that: "Europeans will begin to gnash their teeth when they learn that they have budged from the Russians"- so this article describes only the results of studies on the male" Y "chromosome, but there are, and the results on the female" X "chromosome are also published, so there almost all" Europeans "and Russians in Russia have only one female haplogroup" H ", that is, almost all genetically sisters, from the pro-mother who lived 5000 years ago. Klyosov wrote / spoke about this earlier.

[Operator]

For several years, Italians have been evading the definition of a haplogroup of Etruscans by the bone deposits found in the territory of the former Etruria.

Judging by the phenotype (appearance from sculptures and drawings), the Etruscans are Semites from Asia Minor.

There has never been a single state in Etruria since the landing of Etruscan colonists there, who lived in several city-states and were exclusively engaged in ore mining and smelting of silver and copper.

[venaya]

Quote: Operator

Judging by the phenotype (appearance from sculptures and drawings) Etruscans are Semites from Asia Minor

"Etruscans are Semites from Asia Minor"- What are you talking about? If you use" Vika ", then really such conclusions can really be easily drawn, a vivid example of who actually owns" Vika ". Read at least basic research, take nothing from the works of E. Klassen" History is Slavic -Russians ... ". There he relies on many years of research of his predecessors on this topic and gives completely different phenotypes of the Etruscans, look at it. In addition, in recent years, information about the Etruscans has increased many times, the deciphered forms of writing clearly show the Russian-speaking nature of its origin, up to clear inscriptions "ROME", not Roma, and many others, freely readable, similar to modern Russian writing. Also: statehood is clearly traced there, another thing is that there has never been a single capital (Rome was never the capital of the Etruscans, just border city, on the border with savages, future Latins). According to their religion, with a developed system of democracy, none, not one of the eight mi capital cities, had no advantages over the rest. Read the available information above the roof. Also: the Semites are from the Aramaic Peninsula, and at first (almost autochons) in Asia Minor there were hat, obvious europioids, and still have remained there. The Trojans with Aeneas are the closest relatives of the Hets and are clearly Russian-speaking. There are questions on this topic - at least in a personal answer.

[Operator]

Look at the map of haplogroups - the Peloponnesian Peninsula (Greece), the Anatolian Peninsula (Turkey), the entire Iranian Highlands (Iran) and almost the entire Ganges Valley (Pakistan) are populated mainly by the Semites of the dominant haplogroup J2 (from 60 to 80 percent).

Another thing is that the population of these countries has largely adopted the culture of conquerors, whose haplogroups are minor (10-20 percent) - Aryans (R1a, Iran and Pakistan) and Turks (R1b, Turkey).
The Greek population (speaking the hybrid koyo language) consists of a hodgepodge - about a quarter of the auto-Khnts of the J2 Semites, Berbers E and Caucasians G, plus small representatives of later Illyrians I1, Celts R1b Aryans R1a.

My forecast is as follows (before DNA analysis of bone residues) - since the Etruscans sailed to the Apennine Peninsula from Asia Minor (Anatolian Peninsula), then they are Semites.

[venaya]

Quote: Operator

Look at the map of haplogroups ... My prediction is (before DNA analysis of bone residues) - since the Etruscans sailed to the Apennine Peninsula from Asia Minor, then they are Semites

I looked ... just tears welling up .... I explain: according to some researchers in the information field on the Internet, usually up to 99% misinformation! Hence the important point:

Quote: vsoltan

The Etruscan language, I remind you, has not yet been decoded. ..so a little guesswork

Perhaps someone will guess. For me personally, everything is clear here: "Who wants - is looking for opportunities, who does not want to pretend to be idiots." Now we look at the work of the Dalmatian historian Mavro Orbini (1563 (?) - 1610) "Slavic kingdom":

... Slavs fought with almost all the peoples of the world. They are ruled Asia, North Africa, occupied most of modern Europe.
Exactly they destroyed the Roman Empire. Entered into modern edited history as "Germanic tribes" - Franks, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Vandals, Lombards, Goths, Alans, etc..
They founded their kingdoms throughout Europe: from North Africa (Vandals-Wends-Venets) and Spain to the British Isles. The Slavs founded almost all the royal and noble families of Europe, for example, the first princely family of modern France - the Merovingian dynasty (founder Prince Merovey). And the Franks-Wranses themselves are a union of the Raven-Wrans tribes.

According to Orbini, Scandinavia was also inhabited by Slavs, and the current Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Icelanders and other "German-Scandinavian peoples" are direct descendants of the Slavs.

I only notice that all modern (not lying part of it) DNA genealogy fully confirms the conclusions of medieval not a lying researcher... And there is no need to hope that any of the rulers will acquire a conscience and finally publish long-known truths. not just profitable. One request: be more careful in the choice of information sources, the data from "Wiki" does not correspond in the slightest degree to reality and facts that have long been available. Semites 2500 years ago were neither in Asia Minor, nor in Egypt, nor on the Perinean Peninsula. There is nothing to look at what is available now, but was not and could not be then. Then only the ancestors of a part of today's Europeans (Russians) lived.

[Operator]

I have only one source of information - Anatoly Klyosov.

How could anyone, including Mavro Orbini, know that there were 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, etc., before the discovery of genes, Y chromosomes, DNA analysis, and molecular clocks? years ago? They collected legends, sucked from the finger, worked on government orders of the rulers - in general, about nothing.

Be guided by Klesov, and you will not be mistaken - the Semites (J1 and J2) lived in the Peloponesse, in Anatolia, the Middle East, the Iranian Highlands and the Ganges Valley already 10000 years ago. Caucasians (G) supported them from the north, Illyrians from the west (I), Indians from the east (L) and Berber from the south (E).

If the Semite word binds you to the Jews, then the gene pool of the latter is a hodgepodge without any dominant haplogroup (like the Greeks and Armenians) - about one fourth J1, J2 and E, the rest are R1a, R1b, G, etc. .d.

[Aposlya]

"Now we look at the work of the Dalmatian historian Mavro Orbini (1563 (?) - 1610)" Slavic Kingdom "

And what do we see there? This of your unworthy monk of Croatian origin in the Slavs recorded both Germanic tribes and Turkic: Alan and Avar!
Do you think that in ancient times there were no freaks and dreamers? Fomenko or Munchausen are not the first to invent fakes!
For example, it didn’t occur to you that this Orbini was published only in the 18th century and only in Russia and all this was published by a certain Musin-Pushkin, the main official falsifier under Catherine, so to speak?

[Kaiten]

Quote: venaya

clearly Russian-speaking

Are you sure you are able to read at least one Het inscription?

[venaya]

Quote: Kaiten

Quote: venaya

clearly Russian-speaking

Are you sure you are able to read at least one Het inscription?

Quote: Kaiten

Quote: PKK

. The language of the Etruscans was akin to Slavic.

Tyrrhenian (the language of the Etruscans) is not Indo-European, it is not related to any of the languages ​​of Europe and is still not deciphered.

Try, at least once, to use such science as logic: "Tyrrhenian (Etruscan language) ... still not decrypted"- if it has not been deciphered, then why does anyone take the liberty of determining which group of languages ​​they belong to or not? In this expression of yours, there is no logic to be seen. About the Hittite language: This language was first deciphered by the Czech professor Ivan the Terrible in 1914- year, and was immediately attributed to the "Indo-European" languages ​​(and genetics also from the north). The Trojans, direct relatives of the Hittites, having moved to Perinea along with their leader Aeneas, according to legend, were one of the founders of the Etruscan statehood. Some forms of Etruscan writing to me quite accessible for reading, as, incidentally, is the related writing of the "Vinca Culture", which is more than 7000 years old. The Etruscan word "Rome" has passed into modern Russian without any changes in the letters used and has the semantic meaning "community", in contrast to the one that does not have its own the semantic meaning of the Latin term "Roma." From this it is quite possible to conclude that the Latin language is simply a mixed language of various tribes and e even from different continents.

[vsoltan]

The Etruscan language, I remind you, has not yet been decoded. ..so a little guesswork

[Kaiten]

Quote: PKK

. The language of the Etruscans was akin to Slavic.

Tyrrhenian (the language of the Etruscans) is not Indo-European, it is not related to any European language and is still not deciphered.

[Comrade Glebov]

I did not master the article, because all these "haplogroups" and other bullshit are not accepted by all scientists, and I do not understand at all. More reminiscent of Zadornov's nonsense about the "great past" of ancient Russia, an analogue of the Ukrainian "digging of the Black Sea"

[GEV67]

Are you my friend a historian? For me, it’s you who are talking nonsense with your statement.

[Comrade Glebov]

I, my friend, are very close in my specialty to a historian. And I know for sure that the island of Rugen was never called Buyan or Ruyan among any Slavic people, that the Varangians are not traders of table salt, Rurik was not a Slav and the Etruscans are not deciphered as "these are Russians", for such an ethnonym did not exist yet. Read books. Including Zadornov. Neighing.

[Velizariy]

For the denial of the Hyperborean origin of Russia, local sectarians attacked me with foam at the mouth, not proving something, but simply with foam at the mouth)) And here you are beating with a sickle the pillars of their sect)

[Operator]

Comrade Glebov is not a historian, comrade Glebov is a Korean

[Pajamas]

http://haplogroup.narod.ru/no-klyos.html
"Anatoly Klesov writes: European roots" of the genus R1a1, 12 thousand years old, are in the Balkans - in Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia "and only 6 thousand years ago these people began to settle in Europe and Western Asia (www.lebed. com / 2008 / art5386.htm) Well, on what basis can the “genus R1a1” be called “Slavic?” After all, the Balkan Peninsula, the historical Slavs - carriers of early Slavic dialects and Slavic ethnic identity - conquered, crossing the Danube, only in the 1300th century A.D. ., that is, only 1300 years ago. This event is thoroughly covered by the authors of early medieval chronicles, military treatises, diplomatic documents; the Slavization of the Balkan Peninsula is generally well documented by evidence of historical and archaeological sources. And it was then - 12 years ago - the inhabitants of "Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia "forgot their former languages, spoke Slavic and adopted Slavic ethnic identity. But, if we accept Klesov's home-grown terminology, then at the moment with Through the linguistic and ethnic Slavization, the local Thracians and Illyrians have been considered DNA-genealogical "Slavs" for 1 thousand years. Moreover, the modern Albanians of the R1aXNUMX haplogroup who have preserved their ancient language are also DNA-genealogical "Slavs" according to Klesov.

But if you act "according to the mind" and look for the Y-chromosomes of real historical Slavs - people who called themselves that and realized that, then it is enough to isolate that branch (cluster) of the haplogroup R1a1, which began to spread throughout central and eastern Europe 1300-1500 years ago in the era of distant migrations of the Slavs outside their ancestral home. And not 6 thousand years ago, like Klesov's. However, there is no certainty that the historical Slavs of the 1th-1th centuries belonged precisely to the haplogroup R1a1. Indeed, the change of languages ​​in most cases is not accompanied by a change in population. In Central Europe, people who spoke Slavic in the 5th century before that spoke Germanic dialects, even earlier - Celtic, even earlier - Illyrian, and so on. Throughout the centuries, the ethnic consciousness of this population changed accordingly. And if the haplogroup R1500a1 appeared on the present Slavic linguistic territory 1 thousand years ago, as Klesov established on the basis of an analysis of its Central European haplotypes, then this means that people who spread the Slavic language and self-consciousness about 1 years ago in the same region could belong to any other haplogroup, for example R1bXNUMXc or EXNUMXbXNUMX. "

[Operator]

12000 years ago glaciers began to melt in Europe, 10000 years ago Caucasians (G), Illyrians (I), Berbers (E), Semites (J2) and protoarians (R1a) appeared in Europe. The Celts appeared in Europe 5000 years ago.
The most ancient bone remains of people of the haplogroup R1a dating back over 7000 years ago were discovered in Karelia, and yet it still had to be reached from the Urals (with an average speed of 1 km per year).

Nobody knows what languages ​​Caucasians, Illyrians, Berbers, Semites and Celts spoke 10000 years ago. But it is well known that 2000 years ago they did not speak Slavic languages. Therefore, the carriers of R1a could not technically adopt the Slavic languages ​​from which they spoke 2000 and 1500 and 1000 and 500 years ago.

A. Klesov’s logic is simple - since the Aryans (R1a) spoke Sanskrit, closely related to Slavic languages, when they invaded 4000 years ago in India, it means that they spoke the same language at the time of their departure from Europe 5000 years ago from the main array of R1a speakers.

Or are you sure that the remaining R1a speakers in Europe first changed their native Sanskrit language to something else, and then again adopted it from someone else?

PS The language of the Caucasians is lost, the languages ​​of the Berbers and Semites live in Africa and Asia, the original language of the Illyrians is supposedly Albanian, the original language of the Celts is supposedly Basque.
Unlike the R1a carriers remaining in Europe, the Celts who came to Europe managed to change their language twice - from Basque to Celtic proper and from Celtic to Latinized.

[Pajamas]

an ethnos emerges only from the moment of self-determination, the "Slavic" ethnos of the 7-9th century AD, on what basis is R1a1 called "Slavic" and not let it be "Albanian" if how the self-determination of an ethnos happened much earlier?

[Operator]

Ethnicity arises from the moment the cultural-linguistic community is formed.

A. Klesov names R1a carriers in different ways depending on the time and place of their life:
- proto-archs from 20000 (the moment of separation of R1a from R) to 5000 years ago (moment of separation of the Aryans from European carriers of R1a):
- by the arias from 5000 to 3000 years ago in the part of those who left for Northern India, the Iranian Highlands and the Middle East.
- Proto-Slavs from 5000 to 3000 years ago in part of those remaining in Europe;
- Scythians from 3000 to 2000 years ago in part of the Aryans who returned from Central Asia;
- Slavs from 3000 years ago and to the present in terms of those who remained in Europe and began territorial expansion in all directions (which entered the historical arena).

Judging by the coincidence of Sanskrit and Slavic languages, such a community was achieved 5000 years ago at the time of the departure of the Aryans from Europe. And judging by the traditional element of decorating ceramic dishes in the form of a swastika, such a community was reached 7000 years ago, based on data from archeology and DNA of bone remains. Well, at the time of separation of R1a from R 20000 years ago, in the Altai region, the cultural and linguistic community was absolute - by definition there were only two carriers of R1a (male and female).

The remaining R1a carriers in Europe lived compactly in the Pripyat-Dnepr region from 5000 to 3000 years ago, until their individual tribes began to move west (Venets), south (Antes), north (Slovenes) and east (Vyatichi).

The Pripyat-Dnepr region in those days was a huge forest from the Baltic to the Black Sea steppes with numerous river sources, lakes and horseback marshes, i.e. was difficult for strangers to access. What is clearly visible on the map of the modern distribution in Europe of the CX Haplogroup R1b - narrow bands of carriers of this haplogroup flow around the Pripyat-Dnepr region from both sides without entering it.

This allowed the clans and tribes of R1a carriers not to undergo assimilation and to develop their cultural and historical community under the name of the Slavs (i.e., glorifying the same gods) for 2000 years.

Relying on their East European base, the Slavs also assimilated the southern and northern Illyrians (respectively the Balkans and Pskov-Novgorod), the Finno-Ugrians (the Russian Plain and Bulgaria) and the Celts (Czech Republic), including them in their cultural and linguistic community.

There was a reverse process: the Celts assimilated the Venets (Italy), the Germans - the Western Slavs (Norway, Shetland, Iceland, East Germany, Austria), the Finno-Ugrians - the Slavs of Central Europe (Hungary). In the Baltics, 1 / 2 of the Slavs and 1 / 2 of the Finno-Ugrians formed a hybrid culture-language community of the Balts (by analogy with the Greeks, Jews and Armenians).

[Rozmyssel]

Quote: Comrade Glebov

I did not master the article, because all these "haplogroups" and other bullshit are not accepted by all scientists, and I do not understand at all. More reminiscent of Zadornov's nonsense about the "great past" of ancient Russia, an analogue of the Ukrainian "digging of the Black Sea"

in vain are you so, DNA genealogy is a promising scientific direction.

[Comrade Glebov]

Maybe I won’t argue. So he wrote, however, that nothing is clear to me about this. I just know that many scientists consider all this nonsense, and referred to them.

[romex1]

pseudo-scientists consider this nonsense. including you, very close to science history. What I don’t understand, then, do you think delirium and pseudoscience?

[Aposlya]

Quote: romex1

pseudo-scientists consider this nonsense. including you, very close to science history. What I don’t understand, then, do you think delirium and pseudoscience?

In fact, scientists consider it nonsense that what Klesov called "DNA genealogy" and consider it a pseudoscience!

http://trv-science.ru/2015/01/13/dnk-demagogiya-k
ljosova /

Speaker A. A. Klyosov is known to the public by the statement in the film by Mikhail Zadornov that the history of the Slavs dates back 9 thousand years and that the Scandinavians came from them [1]. We all know that films can distort the words of a scientist and it is necessary to watch his publications in scientific journals. But in the case of A. A. Klyosov, this is problematic. He sets forth his ideas mainly on the Internet and in books that do not have the neck of a scientific institution. Yes, even in two journals, which he calls scientific. The theme of the first - “Bulletin of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy” (the “Academy” was established by him) - is wide: articles on genetics coexist with the decoding of the Vlesova Book and the analysis of climate changes by zodiac signs. The second journal (Advances in Anthropology, editor-in-chief A. A. Klyosov, published by Scientifc Research Publishing) is not included in the generally accepted databases of scientific periodicals, but it is included in the list of suspicious publications that make money for publishing anything [2]. Prior to his fascination with the history of mankind, A. A. Klyosov was engaged in chemistry and has scientific articles and patents in this specialty. The Georgian Academy of Sciences even introduced it to its specialty in biochemistry. Perhaps, like Academician A. T. Fomenko, the famous mathematician, Anatoly Klyosov, the desire to "restore order" in a foreign field of science failed him.

Scientists and lovers

Research on the genetic diversity of mankind has been going on for nearly a hundred years. Population genetics is studying gene pools with ever new markers: blood groups, mitochondrial DNA, the Y chromosome, and now also the full genomes. These genetics have long been used as one of many sources telling about human migrations. Today, DNA analysis has become available to everyone - more than a million people have already done it. Thanks to the achievements of population genetics, each of them can trace the migration of their direct genealogical lines (male and female) for thousands of years in depth. This applied branch of genetics was called genetic genealogy, although in Russia it was often called “DNA genealogy”. It turned out to be a breeding ground for A. A. Klyosov. Using ready-made databases and pulling out the Y chromosome (occasionally mtDNA) from the extensive tools of population genetics, he adds several formulas to one of the methods of genetic dating, usurps the term “DNA genealogy” and, exploiting an ever-growing interest in genetic reconstructions of the history of peoples, announces all this is a “new science”, and itself - its creator [3].

Read, maybe then in my head everything will fall into place ...

[Operator]

Sit on the priest evenly, the Mongols are unfinished - C3 (42%), R1a (18%), J2 (12%), R1b (6%).

[Aposlya]

if you were to go a converted forest ugrofin!

[romex1]

read in my head everything is in place. What does it change? Actually Klesov is not an authority for me, like Zadornov, but there are other sources that are more trustworthy. By the way, I have a friend, a Tatar, who shouted very loudly that he was a thoroughbred and that he was all Russian dust. He made a DNA test for himself, which showed that he belongs to the R1a group, in short, he recognized himself as Russian.

[Alexey-74]

In general, it is clear that most of the Europeans, Russians - all are descendants of the ancient proto-Slavic tribes .... well now it’s easier for us to live! But seriously, the Europeans will never admit that they have the same roots with the Russians (except for the Slavs, of course: the Poles, and the south of Europe) .... for them it is something impossible - after all, in their eyes the Russians were always barbarians.

[timkoldun]

Quote: kumaxa

I don’t understand something at all! what is the article about !!

halo groups ... such a dregs. without a pint you can’t figure it out

[timkoldun]

Quote: Bashibuzuk

after all Romanians.
Gypsies, in short.

romanians and near netsygani

[Velizariy]

Is it not the Romans (Romans) ?! If the gypsies are not ethnically, then Churchill said: Romanians are a specialty!

[martin-159]

At VO, recently, they began to publish some kind of dregs. And on the topic less and less.

[masiya]

That's for sure, especially after changing the image !!!

[Smog]

What are we arguing about?
Man descended from Adam and Eve. Well!

[Ustrushan]

What are Slavs, Germans, Japanese, etc.? The peoples begin to take shape on the opposition of the type we are farmers, they are pastoralists, our land is here, they are there, we have such a language and they have a different language. With long migrations, a fast mestization occurs (as a rule), the language, rites, and culture change. The tribe flows into other nations.
Dale was right Dal in what language a person thinks, that one of that nationality. And the blood mixes quickly. The same haplotypes of R1a in large numbers in the Kyrgyz. This does not say that the Kyrgyz are Slavs. Genetics - provides remarkable data on ancient migrations, but call these genera Slavic? Call them Wends - yes! Part of the Wends joined the Slavic tribes, part (possibly) of the peoples of North Africa, part of the other Germans.

[regdan]

There are no fossil DNAs of venets and / or venues yet
Well, if not, then stupid theories have nothing to put forward here ....

[Aposlya]

Quote: regdan

There are no fossil DNAs of venets and / or venues yet
Well, if not, then stupid theories have nothing to put forward here ....

Yes, it seems like there were articles a long time ago about the excavations of the burials of the Wends dating back even before the invasion of Avar. And there, on the contrary, I2 halogen was inherent in the Wends. And this Klesov is just stupidly trying to get an owl on the globe ...

[Operator]

To understand what this article of A. Klesov is about, you need to read his early articles about:
- the postglacial (10000 years ago) settlement of Europe by Caucasians (haplogroup G), Illyrians (I1, I2), protoari (R1a), Berbers (E, northern coast of the Mediterranean) and Semites (J1, Greece);
- the invasion of Europe by 5000 years ago of protokelts (R1b), the almost total extermination of Caucasians (G), the migration of Illyrians to Scandinavia (I1) and in the Black Sea (I2), the relocation of the core of protoarians (R1a) to other Eastern Dnieper and Pri proto-tribal tribes to Central Asia (future Scythians), Iran (future Persians) and Northern India (the Aryans proper).

Protokelts populated all of Western, Central and Southern Europe, with the exception of Scandinavia (where they were assimilated by the Illyrians), the Apennine Peninsula (where they were rebuffed by the Berbers - future Romans) and the Peloponnesian Peninsula (where they were rebuffed by the Semites - future Greeks).

In the Pripyat-Dnieper region, Slavs (R1a) were formed from proto-archs, who 3000 years ago at the beginning of the Iron Age began their second coming to Central and Southern Europe, assimilating along the path of the Black Sea Illyrians (I2) - future Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

By the beginning of our era, 2000 years ago, in the west, the Slavs advanced to Denmark and Sudeten, in the south - to Italy (a district of Venice named after the Slavic tribe of Wends). In the north, the Slavs advanced to the Karelian Isthmus, assimilating part of the northern Illyrians (I1) along the way. In the east, the Slavs assimilated the Finno-Ugric peoples (N1c).

1000 years ago, the Slavs were driven out from the west by the Odra and Nysu rivers by the Scandinavian Illyrians (I1), they are also Germans.

At the same time, the Berbers (E) of the Apennine Peninsula were replaced by Celts (R1b), after which the genetic composition of the population of Europe remains unchanged to this day.

The modern genotype of the Slavs from Oder to Amur and from the Kola Peninsula to the Crimean Peninsula on 50-60 percent consists of the Proto-Aryan R1a, 10-20 percent of the Illyrian I1, I2, 10-20 percent of the Ugro-Finnish N1c, XNXXX and XNXX and 1 and 10 and 1.

[venaya]

Quote: Operator

To understand what this article of A. Klesov is about, you need to read his early articles ...

Personally, I, apparently in view of acquaintance with this topic, while reading this article, did not have any difficulties and ambiguities, only a little more than the initial information for a general understanding, although for most it seems to be complicated. Another thing your comment - it's all very hard to read! Look: You are frankly mixing non-confusing concepts. For example: newly formed nations, nationalities, well, can in no way be associated with a definite haplogroup. In addition: At the moment, they have already managed to clearly determine both the age of haplogroups itself, and the place of origin and even the trajectory of dispersal of the studied haplogroups. Look: haplogroups "P", "R" and "Q" - * today's American Indians), as well as "R1", "R2", "R1a" - arose in the region of the eastern spur of the Altai Mountains. Haplogroup "NO", the predecessor of the Chinese (Korean, Japanese) haplogroup "O", and the Finno-Ugric common haplogroup "N" - the eastern spurs of the Himalayan mountains. Haplogroup "C" - the eastern spurs of the Pamirs, etc. Haplogroups J1 and J2 originated exclusively in the Aramaic Peninsula (and not in Greece or Asia Minor), then spread everywhere. The Finno-Ugric haplogroups N1c and N1b, well, could not be oppressed by the haplogroup R1a and R1a1, as they lived in Europe and Siberia much longer than 10 years ago, while the Ugrophins "N" haplogroups began to appear in Siberia at best 000 years ago , actually starting from the 2500th century. Let me remind you that the oldest dialects of the Russian language were found among the Arkhangelsk Pomors, they are more than 3500 years old (based on the age of Sanskrit). All of today's Europe, 7500 years ago, mainly spoke the ancient Russian dialects. Berbers, white inhabitants of Africa, often have haplogroup R1a1, and some black tribes of Africa have an excess of haplogroup R1b1. There is also a lot of information about other haplogroups, but it is often the opposite of yours.

[Operator]

I just didn’t begin to creep along the “tree of thought” - to mention the place and time (Altai, 20000 years ago) of the proto-Aryan R1a branching off from R, and even more so from the R itself from an older haplogroup (North China, 40000 years ago). The main thing is that R1a was lit 10000 years ago as an autochthonous in Europe after the retreat of the last glacier (together with I, G and E).

As for the time when the Finno-Ugrians N1c (and not the Arctic Samoyeds N1) arrived in Europe, you are mistaken - they came from Asia to Eastern Europe only 5000 years ago, while the Protoarii R1a and Illyrians I1 and I2 retreated from the west to the same Eastern Europe. Due to the large size of the territory of Eastern Europe, the harsh climate and the small number of all tribes, they lived without conflict, creating hybrids 50 / 50 type of Baltic.

7500 years ago, Europe spoke five languages: Proto-Aryan (R1a), Illyrian (I), Caucasian (G), Berber (E) and Semitic (J2, Peloponesse).

The R1a group in the Middle East is distributed (up to 75 percent) exclusively among the sheikhs of the Arabian Peninsula and the Jewish Levite clan. It is the legacy of the Aryans who entered this region 4000 years ago. For ordinary Berbers, Arabs and Jews, this haplogroup is practically absent.

The R1b group in Africa is a minor (5-10 percent) on the entire southern coast of the Mediterranean along the Protokelt route to Gibraltar. More than 75 percent of R1b is among the population of Cameroon - one of the Protokelt tribes wandered there, deviating from the main route.

[vsoltan]

I read your detailed comment. .. I agree with a fair share of your messages. ... but you. ... haven't you read or reread Nosovsky and Fomenko with enthusiasm? There are too many inconsistencies. .. well, and by the way, I want to remind you. ... re-read the "Vedas" .... such a booklet was published in the printed edition. ... there is a lot of interesting stuff. .. I mean, of course, the "Rig Veda" .... everything is laid out on the shelves. .. cooler and more reliable than both Fomenko and Nasovskiy, than the research of modern imported geneticists. .. :-)

[Operator]

I just summarized the articles of A. Klesov.

The Vedas are written written oral legends of the Aryans a thousand years after their invasion of Northern India. For a thousand years of retelling in a chain from one to another knowledge carrier, something in the Vedas could have diverged from reality.

Arias that invaded the Iranian Highlands also left verbal / written evidence - Avesta.

The descendants of the Protoarians make up from 30 to 60 percent in Europe among the Slavs, from 5 to 10 percent among the Celts, and from 15 to 25 percent among the Germans - a total of about 250 million people.
The descendants of the Rigveda Aryans now constitute the vast majority among the Kyrgyz, Pashtuns, as well as the Brahmins and Kshatriyas of India - up to 75 percent with a total number of about 300 million people.
The descendants of the Austrian Aryans make up to 10 percent among the Persians, Pakistanis and Turks, as well as up to 65 percent among the Arabian sheikhs and Jewish clergy for a total of up to 50 million people.

[Volzhanin]

Yeah. Only the Russian Slavs noted the reckoning from the Creation of the World in the Star Temple, and only the bloody little one canceled this good tradition. There are several countries in the world, not to mention individual nations, which still have correct chronology, and not get the hell out of nowhere.

Quote: Operator

In the region of Pripyat-Dnieper, Slavs (R1a) formed from proto-aryans, who began their second coming 3000 years ago at the beginning of the Iron Age

Formed 3000 years ago, and the calendar led to that time for more than 4000 years! Here are those tricks!

[Operator]

Protoarii (R1a) like all the peoples of Europe 5000 years ago lived in childbirth (groups of direct relatives), later the formation of tribes (Aryans, Venets, Ants, Slovenes, etc.) - groups of genera began.

The tribes diverged from the region where the Pripyat-Dnepr proto-ary live in different directions - east (actually arias, 4000 years ago), west (venets, 3000 years ago), south (antes, 2000 years ago) and north (Slovenes, 2000 years ago) .

The Aryans partially assimilated the Indians (L) and the Semites (J2), the Venets - the Celts (R1b), the Ants - the southern Illyrians (I2), the Slovenes - the northern Illyrians (I1).

In the place of their residence 2000 years ago, the protoarians themselves also began to form tribes of the Polyans, Vyatichi, Krivichi, etc. Vyatichi and Krivichi went to the east of the Russian Plain, and glades remained in the Pripyat-Dnieper region.

Glades partially assimilated southern Illyrians (I2), Vyatichi and Krivichi - Finno-Ugrians (N1c).

The general self-name of the tribes of Venets, Ants, Slovens, Glades, Vyatichi and Krivichi is Slavs, i.e. those who glorify the same gods. Their neighbors called in different ways - Wends, sklavins, Scythians, plowmen, etc. Communication with the Aryans was interrupted by the invasion of Central Asia by the Mongolian Huns from northern China, so the name Slavs did not extend to them.

The gene pool of the Slavs consists of:
~ 50% proto-Aryan haplogroup R1a;
~ 10% Severnillian haplogroup I1;
~ 10% South Ilyrian haplogroup I2;
~ 10% Finno-Ugric haplogroup N1c;
~ 10% Celtic haplogroup R1b.

Mongolian С2, Caucasian G, Semitic J2 and other haplogroups are represented in the gene pool of the Slavs at the level of 1-2 percent each.

2000 years ago, population density in Eastern Europe increased, conflicts with nomads from the Black Sea - Khazars, descendants of the Aryans, Protokelts and Semites assimilated by the Huns became more frequent. Khazar nomads attacked Slavic farmers with the aim of receiving tribute.

In response, in Eastern Europe, the people of the Rus (in the modern version of the Russians) were formed from the tribes of the Polyans, Vyatichi, Krivichi, Slovenes and Venets, who first destroyed the Khazars, then their relatives Pechenegs, Polovtsy and Mongol-Tatars.

In the fight against nomads, the Russians reached the Pacific Ocean and the borders with China and Central Asia, inhabited by farmers.

If necessary, let’s get where it is necessary - we don’t get used to it

[vsoltan]

Suppose that the Polovtsy (Alans, Ossetians, Basques, Gascons) were not destroyed. ... but eat well, in the subject clearly. ...:-) a plus

[Operator]

This is not me, this is Anatoly Klesov.

Ossetians are the only people whose Caucasian hapogroup G2a (the first Europeans after the last glaciation) is 70 percent (which is a lot). The remaining haplogroups of Ossetians are 14% protoclelets (R1b), 7% Semites (J2) and 1% Scythians (R1a).
Unfortunately, the Scythians assimilated Ossetians and they now speak one of the Iranian languages. Therefore, G2a's own language is unknown. By the way, I.V. Stalin belonged to this particular haplogroup, which Georgians, Armenians and other residents of the Caucasus, the Alps and Pyrenees have in small quantities.

The Alans also belonged to G2a, but to a different subclade, so the Ossetians did not come from them. A small tribe of Alans left for Western Europe at the end of the 1 millennium BC and there were completely assimilated by the Celts.

The Polovtsy (descendants - modern Karachay-Balkars) were the Turkish-speaking Aryans - the Central Asian Scythians (31% R1a, 27% G2a, 14% J2), assimilated to the Hunnu.
After the defeat by the Tatar-Mongols in 1223 in the battle of Kalka, the surviving Polovtsians left for the North Caucasus, Georgia, Hungary and Bulgaria.

The Basques and Gascons belong to a completely different haplogroup - protokelts R1b (up to 70-80%). They left Eastern Europe through the Caucasus to Asia Minor, the Middle East, North Africa and then to Western and Central Europe 6000 years ago, long before the appearance of the Polovtsy themselves and their ancestors of the Aryans in the Black Sea region.

[Tired]

Previously, when on RenTv all kinds of freaks talked about liquid-Masonic-retiloid conspiracies, the Russians built the pyramids and founded Rome, the water that absorbs and transfers soaps, and that kind of nonsense, I laughed. I sincerely believed that this was just a nonsense and would never lead to serious consequences.
And now the president’s administration is led by the inventor of the nooscope, the child’s right is a believer in telegraphy, another inspired lady rules the education, the prosecutor marching across the Crimea with a portrait of Nikolai the Second - the true culprit of the victory in the Second World War, on the first channel they are broadcasting the showdown between detectives and psychics and the final horoscopes in the morning from all broadcast sources. Well, everything on the Internet, starting here from these articles about the Russian founders of ancient civilizations and up to a detailed explanation that the round Earth is just a conspiracy. And I'm not funny anymore. This is actually not at all funny.

[OLD FART]

Well, you and suffered ....))))

[Donhapa]

Quote: Velizariy

Is it not the Romans (Romans) ?! If the gypsies are not ethnically, then Churchill said: Romanians are a specialty!

Gypsies are relatives of the Jews))))
So will you be happy?

[vsoltan]

Tram Pam Pam. ... old Soviet joke:
Armenian - profession
Jew - Calling
Russian is fate

[bubalik]

vsoltan Today, 20: 41

- The Frenchman is not a nationality, it is a way of life. A Jew is also not a nationality, it is a way of thinking.
- And russian?
- Russian is fate.
,,,,

[vsoltan]

The article is interesting, it just doesn’t have a place in VO, where some people don’t really want to strain and read to the end, someone skipped genetics in the 9 class. .. well, there is no place here for such articles. ... And Kolesov, however, does not make unambiguous conclusions, in general, confuses the people. There is no need to touch upon other historians at all, but the commonwealth of geneticists with ethnographers would help to resolve some issues of the topic under discussion.

[Drshan]

Quote: vsoltan

The article is interesting, it just doesn’t have a place in VO, where some people don’t really want to strain and read to the end, someone was missing out on genetics in 9th grade. .. well, there is no place here for such articles. ... And Kolesov, however, does not make unambiguous conclusions, in general, confuses the people. There is no need to touch upon other historians at all, but the commonwealth of geneticists with ethnographers would help to resolve some issues of the topic under discussion.

Literally removed from the tongue. Although I did not skip genetics, but the article is not on the profile.

[Bashibuzuk]

Guys, mark my word -
in twenty years or so ... a rare property ... - instantaneous, or fleeting, or fleeting ... or some other short-term ... variability of haplogroups will be revealed.
As well as their subclades.
And the rest of the design.
...
I’m giving a tooth ..... oh, damn it ... it has already taken off.
......
I do not believe in traditional history. Genetics. Paleontology.
All this was. And there is. Only ....... we did not learn to define the borders. Install. Certainly.
And the whole trick.

[AL_Creator]

The attribution of the Wends to the Germans is due to Rome. Here is an example of how Rome divided tribes into one group or another (described by Publius Cornelius Tacitus in his essay “On the Origin of the Germans and the Location of Germany”.).

“I really don’t know whether the Peukins, Wends and Fenns should be attributed to the Germans or Sarmatians, although the Peukins, whom some call Bastarns, repeat the Germans in speech, way of life, settled way of life and dwellings. Untidiness for everyone, idleness and inertia among the nobility. Due to mixed marriages, their appearance becomes more and more ugly, and they acquire the features of the Sarmatians. The Wends adopted many of their manners, for for the sake of robbery they roam the forests and mountains, which only do not exist between the Peucins and the Fenni. However, they are more likely to be reckoned among the Germans, because they build houses for themselves, carry shields and move on foot, and moreover with great speed; all this separates them from the Sarmatians, who spend their whole lives in a wagon and on a horse.”
I strongly urge the reader to memorize this little masterpiece of Roman ethnography. A German is a European barbarian who is not a Sarmatian. And that's it. Nothing else matters.
Not so long before Gaius Julius Caesar also serenely identified the Germans as a kind of Gauls. I'm afraid that general habits played a larger role here - well, for example, wearing pants and not wanting to shave and cut Roman style - than any other criteria.