"White Czechs" on the streets of Penza

78
In fact, this material should be given 28 May, in memory, so to speak, of the events in which it is referred. But since the subject of the “White Czech revolt” interested many VO readers, I thought that it makes sense to turn to my archive where there is material on this subject. It was once published in the magazine "Tankomaster", but significantly reworked on the basis of newspaper articles 1918 of the year.


Armored cars sent to Penza.



Well, it should start with the fact that he was still a student at the Penza Pedagogical Institute named after. V.G. Belinsky (where in 1972, I began to study at the Faculty of History and Philology, at the same time receiving the specialty teacher stories and English) I decided to do science, and I signed up to the scientific circle of Professor Vsevolod Feoktistovich Morozov, our then first doctor of science on the history of the CPSU, which several of our students gave to write a report on how the White Czechs seized Penza in May. At the same time, he told them to turn to the memories of still-living witnesses of those events.

The report was read, and even then I thought that obviously something in the information they collected about those events was not enough. The ends do not communicate! So, for example, from it showed that the composition with the Czechs, arrived at the station Penza-3, had no guns, they were all handed over to this. However, according to the recollections of an eyewitness, the Czechs fired cannons around the city, and one “core” hit the corner of a house on Sovetskaya Square. Further more: the whole center of Penza, which was stormed by the “White Czechs”, is located on a mountain, and from the station, where their trains stood, it is separated by a river. Yes, wooden bridges were led there, but there were machine guns on the bell tower of the cathedral and on the river bank. The Soviet troops that defended the city had artillery. And how did the Czechs, under artillery and machine-gun fire, manage to cross these two bridges and climb up the mountain? There and lightly to go hard, and then run under machine-gun fire with full display!

When offensive forces must be at the level of 6: 1, did the Czechs really have such an advantage? In general, our speaker at that conference was very difficult. When he began to say that “White-Czechs entered the city on bridges,” he was asked how this could be, because it’s absolutely clear that if every bridge is mounted on a machine gun, then the infantry cannot move through it. Moreover, the Bolsheviks had a lot of machine guns in Penza, if they were located both at the bell tower of the city cathedral and at the Council House in the same Cathedral Square, and in various other places in the city.

As for the Czechs, the order was read: “In each echelon, an armed company of 168 men, including non-commissioned officers, and one machine gun, for each 300 rifle, for the 1200 machine gun of charges, should be left for their own protection. All other rifles and machine guns, all guns must be handed over to the Russian government in the hands of a special commission in Penza, consisting of three representatives of the Czechoslovak army and three representatives of Soviet power ... ”[1]. So the gun body passed, even when he left the Ukraine to Russia. But neither the speaker, nor the co-rapporteurs, nor our professor Morozov himself answered the questions of various meticulous students at that time.

Participant of three wars
It turned out that either “ours” were in the full minority, or “could not fight”, or the “Czechs” had too much advantage and were brave to insanity! Or we didn’t know about all this ... However, the story of those events is best to start by finding out the reasons for this “rebellion” and its background, which is very instructive in its own way. But first of all, it should be said about who these same Czechs were and what they did in Russia in 1918 year. Briefly about them, you can say this: they are collaborators, the then ... "Vlasovites."

Already at the beginning of World War I, the Czechs and Slovaks who fought in the army of the Austro-Hungarian Empire deserted with whole regiments and surrendered to the Russians (well, they didn’t like the Austrians or the Hungarians - what can you do?), So that a whole corps (created 9 of October 1917 of the year) in 40 of thousands of soldiers, called upon to fight together with the Russian army for the independence of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, that is, against their state - the Austro-Hungarian monarchy. After the victory, they were promised the creation of an independent state, just as Hitler had promised the Cossacks republic to our Cossacks and, of course, they very willingly went to war for that. Czechoslovakians, naturally, considered themselves part of the troops of the Entente, and fought against the Germans and Austrians on the territory of Ukraine. When the Russian Empire ordered to live long, parts of the Czechoslovak Corps stood near Zhytomyr, then retreated to Kiev, and from there to Bakhmach.

And it was here that Soviet Russia signed the “Brest Peace” and became the actual ally of Germany, which transferred the Baltic states, Belarus, Ukraine to Rostov and the entire Black Sea fleet. In accordance with it, all the troops of the Entente (in Russia, where besides the Czechoslovakia, there were also English and Belgian armored divisions, and many other units) were to be urgently removed from the country, of which they were still quite recently. And although Pravda and the local newspapers wrote in March 1918 of the year that “50 000 Czechs went over to the side of the Soviet Republic” [2], in fact this was not the case!

They did not “go over” anywhere, but it was that the leaders of the Czechoslovak Corps, together with Joseph Stalin, at that time the People’s Commissar for Nationalities Affairs, signed an agreement according to which the corps was to leave for France through Vladivostok, and all its heavy weapons to pass.

Point of delivery weapons Penza was appointed, where the former allies were loaded into trains and sent to the Pacific via the Trans-Siberian Railway. Those who did not want to go to the Western Front here, in Penza, could enroll in a Czechoslovak regiment organized in the Red Army.

But then at the end of April 1918, the German side demanded that the trains with the Czechoslovaks be stopped. But they gave a "green street" to trains with captured Austrian and German soldiers, who began to urgently return to their homeland from camps in the territory of modern Kazakhstan. And it is clear that the German army, who fought on the Western front, needed reinforcements, and the appearance of 50-thousand Czechoslovaks at the front in France was not at all necessary. Well, the Bolsheviks had to "pay off debts." All the saying: you love to ride, love and sleigh to carry. On the Black Sea ships, those that were not sunk in Novorossiysk, the Kaiser flags were already flying, but what about the Czechoslovakians? And about them it was like this: that on May 14 in Chelyabinsk, Austro-Hungarian prisoners of war threw a piece of metal from a passing train and it “seemingly by chance” seriously wounded one Czech soldier. The Czechoslovakians stopped the train with the captured Hungarians, but found the culprit and ... by mob right away they were shot.

The local council did not clarify the matter, but arrested the ringleaders. Then, on May 17, the 3 and 6 regiments of the Czechoslovak Corps occupied Chelyabinsk and freed the arrested comrades. This time, the conflict between the Czechs and the Soviet authorities was resolved by the world. But on May 21, the Czechs intercepted a telegram sent for signature by Leon Trotsky, the people's commissar for military affairs, which ordered all the Czechoslovak units to immediately disband or, instead of sending them to France, turn them into a labor army! In response, the Czechoslovakians ... decided to go to Vladivostok in spite of everything on their own.

Trotsky did not like it when anyone else undermined his authority by failing to comply with his orders. Therefore, on May 25, he issued an order: to stop the Czechoslovak echelons by any available means, and to shoot any Czechoslovakian, with a weapon in his hand in the area of ​​the highway, immediately.

Thus, it was the Soviet government first declared war on the corps. And he accepted the challenge, although he thereby became a participant in four wars at once - the war of the Entente with Germany and its allies, the civil war with those Czechs who remained loyal to the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, the “red Czechs” that were transferred to the Bolsheviks, and the civil war territory of Russia, and turned into one of the active participants in all these wars.

Newspaper pages show ...
Even today I cannot understand why, at that time, our professor Morozov did not send us to the city archive, so that we read about all these events in the Penza newspapers, because we then had to be satisfied with eyewitness memories and secondary sources. But when I could read all our newspapers, they found a lot of interesting things in them. For example, in the Bulletin of the “Penza News of Sov.” And in the newspaper “Molot”, in the section “On Events” it was directly stated that “there are many different reasons for the causes of the bloody events that have been played out in the city. interpretations ... "- and" must be clarified. " Then it was written that "the Czech echelons are the remnants of the Russian army ... who fell under the influence of their counter-revolutionary officers, that" trains with food ... were not missed at all by rapists "(from Siberia). Further, that in the morning of May 28, "Czechoslovak troops captured three armored cars, sent to the Soviet, thus starting military operations." “Already in the 1-2 hour, shots began to be heard and in some places machine guns began to chatter. And finally, the artillery rumbled ... "[3]. Then the newspaper gave a colorful description of the indiscriminate robbery that the Czechs committed in Penza (Who in the comments to the last article about the Czechs wanted to know about the robberies? Here you are!) And about the "cowardly" withdrawal of the rebels by rail. 83 corpses of Penzents were reported that were offered in the morgue of the city hospital for identification, and 23 corpses at the chapel in one of the city churches.

Attention was drawn to the fact that many Red Army men were killed by explosive bullets, which for some reason were abundant with the Czechs. That is, the Czechs in Penza also violated an international convention - that's how it is! The newspaper Izvestia of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies "on 2 June 1918 of the year about the armed struggle against the Czechoslovakia was reported by the hour:" Penza 12 hours (May 28) was declared under siege. In the city, the working Red Guard took up arms. Trenches are digging and barricades are being built. 2 hours - our passages across the Penza River are busy and they are fired by rifle and machine-gun fire. 4 o'clock in the afternoon - began artillery shooting. 12 hours of the night - the shooting does not subside ... "[4] The newspaper could not write about what happened next, as only 2 of June came out, when the trains of the Czechoslovakians left Penza. That is, here and guns shot, and there were even armored cars, but here it was impossible to learn more about this either from newspapers or from other archive materials of the GAPO (State Archive of the Penza Region).


Penza. Ryazan-Ural railway station (Now Penza-3 station).

"White Czechs" on the streets of Penza

The same building. View from the train tracks.

A gift from fate
It is known from Soviet historical literature that in the open spaces of Russia the Czechoslovak Corps stretched along the entire Trans-Siberian Railway, and there were six groups in it - the Penza, Chelyabinsk, Novonikolaevskaya, Mariinskaya, Nizhneudinskaya and Vladivostok, which were sufficiently isolated from each other.

The Penza group was at the same time one of the largest and well-armed. It included the 1 Rifle Regiment named after Jan Hus, the 4 Rifle Regiment of Prokop Naked, the 1 Reserve Hussite Regiment and the 1 th Artillery Brigade of Jan ижižka from Trotsnov, who were able to retain part of the armed forces. However, it would be very difficult for them to storm the city on a hill, and so big as Penza, if there were no unknown circumstances here. And then the question naturally arises: what were these circumstances?


Czechs have trophy armored cars.

In Soviet times, they usually wrote that "the most powerful and dangerous group for the Bolsheviks was on the Serdobsk-Penza-Syzran railway line and had a total number of approximately 8 thousand fighters." But these 8 thousands were not exactly in Penza, so it can hardly be argued that the Czechoslovakians had a significant advantage in manpower. Consequently, it was not by the number of fighters that the Czechs defeated the Penza garrison. It was something else. But then what?

And here in the Czech magazine NRM I caught sight of a material about ... Czech armored vehicles that participated in the storming ... Penza! The editors of the magazine linked me to the Prague Diffrological Society (Society of Lovers of the History of Armored Vehicles), and from there they sent me information about those events from private archives of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, as well as photos from the collection of B. Panush and another scheme by I. Vanek. All these materials were printed in the magazine “Tankomaster” [5], only there were no references to sources, because the materials sent to me in a typewritten form, and we did not publish references in it. And an unknown factor was found out. It turns out that the rebels Czechoslovakia were helped ... by the Bolsheviks themselves, who sent three armored cars to Penza to "crush the Czechs", who arrived by rail at Penza-3 station. They were sent to the Penza Council, because of the obvious embarrassment and by coincidence, all the armored cars fell into the hands of the Czechs. Moreover, the armored cars were brought to Penza ... the Chinese (!), And they did not really resist the Czechs, and transferred all three armored cars intact. And the most interesting thing was that they did not know about it only here in the USSR, and in socialist Czechoslovakia they knew this well, because the memoirs of S. Chechek, one of the commanders of the rebel corps, where all these details were given, were published in 1928 year! [6]


BA "Austin"


BA "Harford-Putilov"

Well, for the Czechoslovak armored cars, sent to their "pacification", became just a "gift of fate." The Grozny BA, for example, was a Harford-Putilov heavy cannon with an 76,2-mm cannon in a rotating turret in the rear of the hull and with three Maxim machine guns in the turret and in the sponsors. The Armstrong-Whitworth-Fiat BA, called Infernal, had two machine gun turrets with 7,62-mm machine guns, and a third, also with two machine guns, was assembled from parts of the Austin armored vehicles of the 1 and 2 series. One machine gun on it stood next to the driver, the other - in the tower. Moreover, on its tower even the Kornilov emblem was preserved, i.e. skull and Bones! And at that time it was a formidable force. It only remained to apply it correctly, which the Czechs did!


Lebedev Bridge was considered to be the most important in the city. For he connected the city center with the Ryazan-Ural railway station Penza III, with the river bank and the military camp, located behind the railway. But judge for yourself, is it possible for such a bridge to break through to infantry under the fire of at least one Maxim machine gun?


View of the same bridge from the Sands. Most likely, the festival of Water Blessing was photographed. As you can see, the bell towers, on which machine guns could be installed, were enough in the city then!

The main thing is to have a good plan.
It was these BAs that ultimately decided the fate of Penza, since it was simply unthinkable to storm it without their support. At that time, Penza-3 station (Uralsky railway station in 1918) was separated from the central part of the city by the Penza River and Starorechiy, the old Penza river bed, which was flooded during the flood that turned the village Peski opposite the station . When Staroreche dried out after the flood, a small stream flowed along it, above which a bridge was built (more like flimsy walkways with railings). The infantry could have passed through them, and through the Sands, along the Lebedevsky Bridge, to get into the city center. But the defenders of the city shot through the bridge from the embankment with machine-gun fire. Here, it was possible to pass only under the cover of an armored car, although it is not known how the Czechs dragged him through the Starorechenskiy brook.


View of the city from the east. In the foreground is the Starorechenskiy creek and the riverbed flooded during high water. Here, in theory, the rebellious Czechoslovakians were supposed to move to the Lebedevsky bridge.


“View of Penza from the Dragoon crossing at the end of Predtetskaya Street (now Bakunin). In 1914, the Red Bridge (now Bakuninsky) was built on that spot ”. There is such a photo on the Penza history website, and this signature was taken from there. However, in fact, it does not depict Penza. There was no such place in Penza at that time.

However, maybe they did not need it. After all, down the river was another solid bridge - Tatarsky, but it was impossible to take it by the forces of one infantry, as this and all other bridges were shot through with machine-gun fire, which, by the way, was reported by Penza Izvestia.

On May 29, the Czechs launched the armored car “Hellish” in front of their units, which was supposed to defiantly depict an attack on a bridge over the river in the area of ​​Peskov. One-towered "Austin", armed with two machine guns, moved along Moskovskaya Street - the main street of Penza. Now it is pedestrian, because it is very cool, and in winter it is easy to ride on a sled. And she was paved with cobblestones, as the cobblestones are slippery, and here at Austin, when he was driving uphill, the motor suddenly went berserk. The clutch of brakes from the cobblestones was not enough, and the armored car crawled down, although the driver tried to start the engine with all his might, and the soldiers were pushing him from behind.

But then on luck attacking the armored car's engine earned, and the Austin slowly moved on. But already at the very top of Moskovskaya Street, he stopped again, as telegraph wires hung there across the street, and he got confused in them. But even this did not delay him very much, and around 11 hours of the morning he finally drove to the Cathedral Square and with the fire of his machine guns he silenced the Red machine guns in the Council building and at the cathedral bell tower. And then the infantry went on the attack, and before noon the Czechs had already completely controlled the city. Their trophies were a significant amount of weapons and ammunition and 1500 Red Army prisoners of war, which they did not shoot, but were released to their homes [7].


Armored car "Grozny", 1-th Czech regiment in Penza, 28.05.1918, "Harford" at 6 o'clock in the morning 29 May Czechs put on the railway platform (although it may well be that they even did not remove it from it!), and in support of units of the 4 regiment, they were sent west to the city of Serdobsk, where the 1 battalion of the 4 regiment was located, the link with which was interrupted.

Once on the spot, this “armored train” dispersed parts of the Serdobsky Soviet with the fire of its cannon, and then engaged in a battle with the approaching Reds armored train, and forced it to retreat. Thanks to this, the 1 Battalion was able to go to Penza. It should be noted that, apparently, this BA was on this platform until the end of the battles and traveled, since due to the large weight it was difficult to use it on the dirt roads of Russia. So in the confrontation of the Penza Bolsheviks with the Czechoslovakia everything was decided by the superiority of the latter in technology. The path home, the path to a new war!

After the Czechs left Penza, although the local rich offered them two million "royal" if they stay, they, using armored vehicles, first captured Samara, and then established contact with parts of the Chelyabinsk group of troops. But further to them the delegation of the Russian public often visited, asking them to stay. In addition, they were often confronted by units of the Reds from the Magyars who were recruited in the camps, with whom the Czechs had their own bills, so they decided to stay on the Volga and fight against them on the side of the Entente here.

And yes, indeed, this decision was very important, because in the end 40 thousand Czechoslovaks were simply blocked in the camps of prisoners of war in Siberia and Kazakhstan ... up to one million German and Austrian prisoners of war who did not enter the Western Front. That is why Atlanta valued the actions of the Czechoslovak Corps in Russia very highly and provided him with all kinds of support, although he, in general, fought and was not very active!

The first ship with hull soldiers and women and children who joined them sailed from Vladivostok in November 1919, and the last left Russia in May 1920. The Czechs agreed with the Soviet authorities that the corps units that were concentrated in Vladivostok remained neutral, but they did not disarm either. And now Trotsky had nothing against it.

Corps commander General Gaida tried to hand over a large number of small arms to the Koreans who fought against the Japanese, for which Koreans are grateful to the Czechs so far! Well, and three armored vehicles of unknown type from among the trophies captured in the battles with the Red Army, they were sold to the Chinese in Harbin. So in the end, collaborationism of captured Czechoslovak soldiers was crowned ... with complete success!


Monument to the victims of the White-Czech rebellion in the center of Penza.

Sources of
1. See more: Tsvetkov V. Zh. Legion of the Civil War. Independent Military Review No. 48 (122), December 18 1998.
2. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 c. 1.
3. "About events". Ibid. C.1
4. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 3105 (208), May 29 1918 C.2.
5. Suslavyachus L., Shpakovsky V. Rebellious armor. Tankmaster, №6, 2002. C.17-21.
6. Chechek S. From Penza to the Urals - The Will of the People (Prague), 1928, No. XXUMX-8. C.9-252.
7.L.G. Priceg. Czechoslovak Corps in 1918. Questions of history, No.5, 2012. C.96.

Fig. A. Shepsa.
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78 comments
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  1. +7
    9 September 2016 07: 14
    It seemed that everything was known about the "Czechs" - but no. Thanks to the author for a very interesting article revealing new details of the stay of the Czechoslovak corps in Russia during the Civil War.
  2. +11
    9 September 2016 07: 35
    A playful tone and, as it were, by the way, frank lies, for reasons that are due to the events themselves. It’s like in the kitchen to friends about a hare shot down during a hunt. That's just the essence * is washed away *, outright robbery and murder are somehow not quite robbery, but .... There have never been any mysteries about Penza for historians, this shows the level of * research *. And there was no secret about the * military * feats of the Czechs either, it needed a special * talent * to describe frank betrayal and still manage to accuse those who were betrayed of betrayal. Modern * research * will not stop there, there are already quite science-like * works * about the collapse of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE by the Bolsheviks, and about the fact that they started the civil war and ... you never thought of anything and blamed it. Dexterity * of a pen * becomes the basis of * evidence * of an event.
    1. +9
      9 September 2016 10: 13
      Quote: Vasily50
      Dexterity * of a pen * becomes the basis of * evidence * of an event.

      What do you want, this is Shpakovsky, the exposer of the Soviet "lies". We must work out grants and "atone for" our communist past.
      Therefore, according to V. Shpakovsky, the whole White Bohemian rebellion occurred due to a leg thrown by the Hungarian from the stove. And, then he smoothly switches to treacherous red.
      This historian knows only one evidence of the events in Penza in 1918. Cecha S. Chechek.
      He sweeps away the others.
      During my service in the army, I had the opportunity to "travel in heating cars" on which it was written "40 people or 8 horses." Imagine the length of trains only for S. Chechek's hull. In the 18th year the wagons were smaller. And the compositions are shorter. With mathematics and analysis of facts, Shpakovsky is tight, if not completely seams. So, how many White Czechs stormed Penza and how were they armed? If they were not disarmed, then they included a whole artillery brigade. If they were disarmed, then Penza, it turns out, was stormed by a couple of infantry companies, how did they only capture fifteen hundred prisoners? Why didn't the author investigate at least this?
      I especially want to note the diligence with which he circumvents the atrocities of the whites.
      Any non-historian will hardly leave a stone unturned from the article. I will not analyze further.
      Quote: gaura
      If the photograph in which the Czechs in Tomsk presents awards to the French general.

      The historian is not aware of the fact of the subjugation of the white whites to the French. As the fact of the adoption by representatives of the Entente countries at a meeting at the French Embassy in Moscow in April 1918 of a decision on intervention in Russia is unknown. wink
      The casket "opens simply" Throughout the Trans-Siberian Railway there are established "democratic community", the descendants of the public, which asked the Czechs to stay monuments to them. Including in Penza. "" Czechoslovak legionnaires who fell on the way to their homeland "Was the author of this creation a participant in the installation of such a monument in Penza? The fact that he did not erect a monument to the Red Army soldier G. Kutuzov, who fell in the battles for Penza with" fluffy "White Czechs, is almost certain.
      1. +2
        9 September 2016 11: 26
        An interesting and revealing attempt to install the monument in honor Czech legionnaires in Samara, which by the way was one of the centers of the anti-Bolshevik struggle.
        1. In 2007 The city authorities decided to install a memorial bas-relief on the building of one of the city cafes. The decision itself caused misunderstanding among the townspeople, and was not implemented.
        2. In 2010 the city authorities decided to install a bas-relief on the stele (i.e. on the monument) in honor of Czech legionnaires. That among the townspeople (different political views) caused anger, given that in Samara the Czechs atrocities - robbery, murder, looting.
        3. At the same time, explain - why ...in honor of[/ i], no one can, they first decided ....[i] in memory
        4. The city authorities are changing, but the decision remains, and no one can explain clearly, as they say: what's what.
        5. This very stele (in honor of), it was decided to install, and I must say very stupidly, on Krasnoarmeyskaya Street, which caused even greater anger.
        6. At the end of 2015 the monument began to be made, but with scandals (pickets, all kinds of dirty tricks)
        7. Installed or not I do not know, it will be necessary to be interested.
      2. +4
        9 September 2016 11: 43
        Phi, how primitive! The article has the number of dead and prisoners. What else do you need? How many were killed and how much they were sent home ... I heard the Czechs about the monument in Penza for the first time, although I live in it, as well as about the monument to Kutuzov - I have not heard about this. And grants are given to me by the Russian Humanitarian Research Foundation - the Russian State Foundation for Scientific Research. If you do not like it, then you are against our state - ah-yay!
        1. +3
          9 September 2016 19: 06
          Quote: kalibr
          Phi, how primitive! The article has the number of dead and prisoners. What else do you need? How many were killed and how much they were sent home ... I heard the Czechs about the monument in Penza for the first time, although I live in it, as well as about the monument to Kutuzov - I have not heard about this. And grants are given to me by the Russian Humanitarian Research Foundation - the Russian State Foundation for Scientific Research. If you do not like it, then you are against our state - ah-yay!

          Quote: kalibr
          Or in Penza there are no local historians except me, and this is not so, it’s understandable, after all, there are 5 universities in the city with a bunch of historians, including doctors of sciences, and a museum

          Are you about yourself? The local historian and historian do not know about the monuments of his native city ?! Then, what local historian are you? I'll give you a couple of links:
          http://redbauer.livejournal.com/231793.html это Красноармейцу;
          http://penza.rfn.ru/rnews.html?id=10925 а, это " пушистым" ;
          http://penza-post.ru/news/25-10-2015/2677
          There are photos of monuments.
          http://forum-msk.org/material/fpolitic/11083680.h
          tml a, this is an open letter to the governor.
          Okay, I'm not a historian, but ... .It seems that in Penza the "main communist" is a history teacher? How did they not see it above?
          Once again about "how primitive". This is the whole answer of a historian with degrees, titles, scientific works "and ... grants to a semi-literate engineer? Or is there nothing to" cover "with? why? The article does not correspond to the data on either the victims, or the atrocities, or the "discovery" of three armored cars, neither by dates, nor by reasons of the mutiny, nor by its beginning ... It is half-truth, half-lie. on the "victims of the exam? Do you like to play cards? And who reviewed your article? Open the secret for me.
          About RHNF. Are there the same historians? With "degrees, titles, scientific works, Hirsch indices ..."? Also working on rewriting history?
          PS If you cheeky puff, you can accidentally burst.
          1. 0
            10 September 2016 12: 37
            In all this nonsense, the most correct thing is "semi-literate engineer".
          2. 0
            10 September 2016 13: 08
            Everything else you are unlikely to find. But this is quite within your power to find. 1. See more details: Tsvetkov V. Zh. Legion of the Civil War. Independent Military Review No. 48 (122), December 18 1998.
            7.L.G. Priceman. Czechoslovak Corps in 1918. Issues of History, No.5, 2012.
    2. +3
      9 September 2016 11: 54
      The main thing, Vasya, in your post, the word is talent, even though you have bracketed it. Since 1991 I have been writing about "commies" and they have never succeeded in hooking me "on a lie", and as much as they wanted ... And all because for each fact there is a link to archival documents. It is not the glibness of the pen that decides, but the documents. And people like you do not know from which side the door to the MO archive opens, but they also climb there to comment ... By the way, this material was also in refereed scientific publications (this is specially facilitated material for perception) and ... from historians, no one is anything reprehensible Have not found. Moreover, it is on the local site of local historians. And ... again, everyone was silent. Either there are no local historians in Penza, except me, and this is not so, of course, after all, there are 5 universities in the city with a bunch of historians, including doctors of science, and a museum, or, therefore, they are all for. Are you a historian? Do you have a degree, title, scientific papers, Hirsch index?
      1. 0
        10 September 2016 11: 04
        kalibr you were not caught in a lie? belay and an article about the problems of drug addiction in the USSR in the 20-30s of that century! "Nonsense of a gray mare"
        1. 0
          10 September 2016 12: 39
          Murzik! And you haven't forgotten about a bottle of whiskey - one of these days I will copy the entire text with links for you. Not like you "catch" me, of course! The gut is thin!
    3. +2
      9 September 2016 19: 24
      Here * caliber * commented, an interesting impression, in fact nothing, but much about the respect of the community * power historians * and about fame. It was inspired by a showdown * of authorities * on the arrow when they determine who knows whom in the hierarchy * of authorities * and from the degree of familiar * authorities * they determine their own * authority *. Very similar. That's just with facts frankly weak.
      1. 0
        10 September 2016 12: 40
        1. See more: Tsvetkov V. Zh. Legion of the Civil War. Independent Military Review No. 48 (122), December 18 1998.
        2. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 c. 1.
        3. "About events". Ibid. C.1
        4. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 3105 (208), May 29 1918 C.2.
        5. Suslavyachus L., Shpakovsky V. Rebellious armor. Tankmaster, №6, 2002. C.17-21.
        6. Chechek S. From Penza to the Urals - The Will of the People (Prague), 1928, No. XXUMX-8. C.9-252.
        7.L.G. Priceg. Czechoslovak Corps in 1918. Questions of history, No.5, 2012. C.96.
        And this is for whom? The article is literally full of facts!
    4. +1
      9 September 2016 20: 46
      Quote: Vasily50
      Germany, which was transferred to the Baltic states, Belarus, Ukraine to Rostov and the entire Black Sea fleet.

      It also bothered me.
      1. 0
        9 September 2016 21: 01
        ponch
        The above quote was taken from someone else, you do not need to ascribe to me what was not written by me.
  3. +6
    9 September 2016 08: 05
    And it was then that Soviet Russia signed the Brest Peace and became a de facto ally of Germany... Awesome ally ... was indebted, had to give territories .. and other difficult conditions .. as they say, greetings from Trotsky .. Somehow the trend went .. with Hitler Germany, the non-aggression pact was signed by the USSR, like many other powers are Hitler’s ally .. No other .. apparently enemies .. The Brest peace was made by the Kaiser’s allies .. Probably the Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich, tsarist generals Alekseev and co .. who invited the emperor to abdicate .. were processed by Bolshevik propaganda .. February 1917 the Bolsheviks seated .. the Black Sea people who flooded their fleet in the bay of Novorossiysk, not wanting the fleet to fall into the hands of the Germans, are traitors in the Brest Peace, those who surrendered the fleet to the German patriots .. If we change our minds ... then why not be indignant .. why the Ukrainians demolish the monuments to Soviet soldiers by the names of Nazi accomplices .. they call the streets .. make them heroes .. It turns out interesting .. during the Great Patriotic War, the Bolsheviks were patriots of their country .. and during the formation of the Soviet power .. scoundrels and traitors .. executioners ..
    1. +7
      9 September 2016 09: 06
      Quote: parusnik
      And it was then that Soviet Russia signed the Brest Peace and became a de facto ally of Germany
      The Bolsheviks who concluded the Brest shame, unconditionally allies of Germany and accomplices of the German-Turkish occupation: supplied them with gold, food and material resources, Russian territories, allowed millions of soldiers to be transferred to the German invaders on the Western Front, breathed a second life into the World Slaughter, which would have stopped six months earlier ..

      What other ally helped Germany at that moment more than the Bolsheviks? No one!

      By the way, no one gave the Bolsheviks the right to conclude the Brest shame: nobody ever picked them anywhere... Can't rule the country without surrendering to the occupiers a third of the territory, 49% of the population, 80% of steel, etc.? So don't take it, go ... um ..... They were not saving the country, but their ubldchuyu power. As the burry dwarf said: "If we do not make peace, then it will be concluded by a completely different government."

      So with the Czechs, people voluntarily and perfectly fought with the common enemy-Germany, it would seem, what more could you want?
      But thanks to the alliance of the Bolsheviks with Germany. - became undesirable, but the invaders Magyars and Germans, who had just killed hundreds of thousands of Russians-friends. Well, even though the Czechs blocked a million German prisoners in Russia, it’s scary to imagine what they did, find themselves on the Western Front.

      Instead of a war with the occupiers, the Bolsheviks fought a war with their people, the victims of which were many times more than the holy victims of the peoples in the struggle against foreigners.
      1. +4
        9 September 2016 10: 04
        You don’t replace the concept .. between a peace treaty and an allied treaty .. From your point of view .. that all peace treaties that were concluded with other states .. these states automatically became allies ...
        1. +1
          9 September 2016 13: 08
          Quote: parusnik
          You don’t replace the concept .. between a peace treaty and an allied treaty .. From your point of view .. that all peace treaties that were concluded with other states .. these states automatically became allies ...


          I bring you the EVENTS of the ACTUALLY existing alliance with the German-f .. Turkish occupiers, and you represent academic theorizing to me.

          This "peace" treaty brought peace only to the authorities of the Bolshevik junta and the occupiers, and 40% of the industrial workers of Russia (whose welfare the Bolsheviks allegedly cared about) deprived of the HOMELAND giving it to the invaders.

          The correspondent of the newspaper "Day" asked in an interview with the head of the German mission of the Count who arrived in Petrograd R. Keyserlingare the Germans going occupy Petrogradhe replied that “there are currently no such intentions, but that [b] such an act may become a necessity in the event of anti-Bolshevik actions ”[/b].

          What a touching concern for the new "Russian statesmen" (according to Samsonov) - "fighters" against intervention Yes
          1. +1
            9 September 2016 13: 29
            You know, I don’t want to argue with you, for one reason, you are an ardent anti-Soviet and anti-communist, you are for the Soviet power, judging by your comments .. to other articles .. only from 1941 to 1945 .. Solzhenitsyn can help you ..hi
            1. 0
              9 September 2016 16: 24
              Quote: parusnik
              You know, I don’t want to argue with you, for one reason, you are an ardent anti-Soviet and anti-communist

              Dear parusnik, it’s free for you to hang up labels ... I think this is unproductive, all the more it is surprising on your part.
              I always read your comments with interest hi
              Quote: parusnik
              Solzhenitsynin to help you

              "A short course in the history of VKPB" hi
      2. +6
        9 September 2016 10: 17
        Quote: Aleksander
        Instead of a war with the occupiers, the Bolsheviks fought a war with their people, the victims of which were many times more than the holy victims of the peoples in the struggle against foreigners.

        Another representative of the "democratic community". wink
        1. +3
          9 September 2016 10: 29
          moreover, the "Moldovan democratic community" laughing Aleksander is still that dreamer!
          1. +1
            9 September 2016 12: 34
            Quote: Uncle Murzik
            moreover "Moldovan democratic the public

            Bessarabian province, dear Murzilka, for whom the blood of tens of thousands of Russian soldiers was shed, but where the comedians artificially raised the evil Russophobian intelligentsia and so on.
            1. 0
              10 September 2016 11: 07
              respected Moldovan Sandu was raised by anti-Soviet and liberalists like you!
    2. +1
      9 September 2016 14: 49
      Quote: parusnik
      Probably the Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich, the tsarist generals Alekseev and co .. who suggested that the emperor abdicate .. were processed by Bolshevik propaganda .. February 1917 the Bolsheviks ousted ..

      Wow turn: General Alekseev-secret Bolshevik ???
      Nor should February be hanged on the Bolsheviks - at that time they didn’t influence the situation at all, especially since they could not campaign at the level of the highest military command.
      Because of February, the long ears of the allies stick out.
  4. +3
    9 September 2016 08: 48
    The author greatly exaggerates when he claims that: Thus, it was the Soviet government who first declared war on the corps. He accepted the challenge ........
    Legionnaires were deliberately sent across the whole country to intensify chaos. The Czechs hated the Reds, the White, and the townsfolk.
    On armored cars, in my opinion, the article has paid too much attention.
    1. +4
      9 September 2016 08: 54
      There is a photograph in which a French general presents awards to Czechs in Tomsk. It seems that they were really introduced to increase chaos. But they didn’t need chaos, they gave them freedom to leave Russia, they would have left
  5. +2
    9 September 2016 11: 38
    [quote = Aleksander] [quote = parusnik] And it was then that Soviet Russia signed the Brest Peace and became a de facto ally of Germany [/ quote]The Bolsheviks who concluded the Brest shame, unconditionally allies of Germany and accomplices of the German-Turkish occupation: supplied them with gold, food and material resources, Russian territories, allowed millions of soldiers to be transferred to the German invaders on the Western Front, breathed a second life into the World Slaughter, which would have stopped six months earlier ..

    What other ally helped Germany at that moment more than the Bolsheviks? No one!

    By the way, no one gave the Bolsheviks the right to conclude the Brest shame: nobody ever picked them anywhere... Can't rule the country without surrendering to the occupiers a third of the territory, 49% of the population, 80% of steel, etc.? So don't take it, go ... um ..... They were not saving the country, but their ubldchuyu power. As the burry dwarf said: "If we do not make peace, then it will be concluded by a completely different government."

    So with the Czechs, people voluntarily and perfectly fought with the common enemy-Germany, it would seem, what more could you want?
    But thanks to the alliance of the Bolsheviks with Germany. - became undesirable, but the invaders Magyars and Germans, who had just killed hundreds of thousands of Russians-friends. Well, even though the Czechs blocked a million German prisoners in Russia, it’s scary to imagine what they did, find themselves on the Western Front.

    Instead of a war with the occupiers, the Bolsheviks fought a war with their people, the victims of which were many times more than the holy victims of the peoples in the struggle against foreigners.
    ============================================
    You have so accurately revealed the essence of the Brest peace and Bolshevism itself, that there is nothing to add.
    1. +4
      9 September 2016 13: 47
      You read the peace treaty of Brest ... This is a world with annexation and indemnities .. in relation to Soviet Russia .. So the ally does not act .. What kind of Entente are you caring .. So that immediately after the February Revolution the Allies already divided Russia .. This is not score .. that's fine ..
      But something else amazes me ... what is it that unites modern Russia now ... and in the Ukraine ... anti-Sovietism ... only he strides there with leaps and bounds ... we are crawling ... while we are peeling ...
    2. +2
      9 September 2016 14: 51
      Quote: semirek
      You can’t rule the country without surrendering to the occupiers a third of the territory, 49% of the population, 80% of steel, etc.?


      They apparently needed to use the example of Nikolai Romanov - he signed the renunciation, surrendered the entrusted country and counted himself further on.
  6. +5
    9 September 2016 12: 19
    That's only in Penza power quietly erected a monument to the whites. Vyacheslav, but you were silent in the article, why?
    1. +3
      9 September 2016 12: 24
      Honest people in Penza.
      1. +1
        9 September 2016 13: 00
        Are these all honest people? Only three? Something little on 500.000. So let it stand!
        1. +2
          9 September 2016 13: 50
          Yes, let it stand as the memory of those Czech dumplings that they ate in 1918 ... The Poles in Moscow should also hang the memorable "plaque" for 1612 ... smile Or the occupier to the occupier ...
          1. +3
            9 September 2016 17: 29
            Now imagine that there would be no Czechs. And a million Hungarians, Germans and Austrians would fall from our captivity to the Western Front? With Ukrainian bread and bacon. Weapons, which, as always, they didn’t have time to and couldn’t, according to the agreement ... And now a blow to France, and the American divisions are still on their way. And ... well, suddenly the Germans wouldn’t hold back, they would start riveting the tanks LK-1 and LK-2 and Paris would fall! And there is a separate peace also with France, the growth of pacifism in the USA and ... the victory of Germany in World War I! And what would this turn out for Russia? By the way, there would have been a victory and a revolution in Germany had not begun and Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states would have remained under the Germans! And would we repel them? What and when? So it is not surprising that the French general awarded the Czechs. I would also reward them. They saved France!
            And then they fought against the Hungarian Red Army !!!
            1. 0
              9 September 2016 19: 18
              Quote: kalibr
              Now imagine that there would be no Czechs.

              I did not know that the squirrels were rescue angels. Temporarily. Not arrived yet American Rambo First World War. wink
              1. 0
                10 September 2016 13: 01
                Yes, that’s exactly what it was. But it’s better to find out later than never to know.
        2. 0
          10 September 2016 11: 08
          why aren't you there? laughing
    2. +1
      9 September 2016 12: 59
      First time, you know, I hear! Although I live in it. But if he’s standing somewhere, it’s only at Penza-3 station, and I don’t go there. I live very far from this place, and Penza is big. I practically do not watch local news on TV, I do not read newspapers. So apparently missed. But past the monument to the victims I often go to work ...
      1. +2
        9 September 2016 15: 25
        Yes, in March 2015, Penza station -3. Without pomp and discussion, we can say that secretly - that's why there are so few protesters, but still more than 3. Most residents of the city do not even suspect about this "monument".
        1. 0
          9 September 2016 17: 17
          Yes, you just stunned me! How many people in Penza I know, including Ph.D., and doctors of sciences, no one has heard of this!
          1. +1
            9 September 2016 17: 55
            Moreover, the "monument" was erected in a very peculiar way. Rarely anyone walks past him, exit to transport stops on the other side of the station.
            1. +1
              11 September 2016 17: 09
              In August, I was interested in the alleged monuments in the Russian Federation, about which I wrote a comment. I repeat. In the Russian Federation there will be 58 places where monuments (or obelisks) to Czech legionaries will be erected. This should be connected with the burial places, and there are agreements on this. In general, it’s surprising that the author does not know about such a monument in his city. Yes, the author does not know --- whether there is a burial place, or simply a place of veneration for visiting businessmen ...
              In general, a lot of surprising things in articles by Vyacheslav Olegovich for me --- he condemns the Communists, the socialist system ... But his older relatives were communists, and by no means ordinary members of the Party!
              Frivolity and jokes in his comments surprise me ...
              ANOTHER WHAT ??? An article that "United Russia" is a white armored train dated 06.09.2016/XNUMX/XNUMX, but before the elections! And this is not an accident. PR specialists do not have accidents! It’s interesting: what game does Vyacheslav Olegovich praise?
              1. +1
                11 September 2016 18: 01
                Quote: Reptiloid
                That's interesting: what party does Vyacheslav Olegovich praise?

                How what? Party of fans of the chameleons. One, and the color is different! wink
                1. +1
                  11 September 2016 19: 15
                  "There is such a party" ????????
                  And if you recall some other words, or rather praise ........ It is necessary to revive the memory, what picture will come out?
  7. +4
    9 September 2016 13: 16
    - The Czechs still took with them a solid part of the gold reserve of the Republic of Ingushetia ... - Actually for this "Russian gold" Czechoslovakia was created as a state ... - with its automobile industry, factories and with a rather "advanced" economy ... -Other means for this, besides this "Russian gold" ...- the Czechs simply did not have ...
  8. +3
    9 September 2016 13: 47
    Quote: kalibr
    The main thing, Vasya, in your post, the word is talent, even though you have bracketed it. Since 1991 I have been writing about "commies" and they have never succeeded in hooking me "on a lie", and as much as they wanted ... And all because for each fact there is a link to archival documents. It is not the glibness of the pen that decides, but the documents. And people like you do not know from which side the door to the MO archive opens, but they also climb there to comment ... By the way, this material was also in refereed scientific publications (this is specially facilitated material for perception) and ... from historians, no one is anything reprehensible Have not found. Moreover, it is on the local site of local historians. And ... again, everyone was silent. Either there are no local historians in Penza, except me, and this is not so, of course, after all, there are 5 universities in the city with a bunch of historians, including doctors of science, and a museum, or, therefore, they are all for. Are you a historian? Do you have a degree, title, scientific papers, Hirsch index?

    Correctly say anti-Soviet, always Russophobe. In Ukraine, we saw all this in the 90s and 2000s, and how it ended. At first it turned out that the "commies" were to blame for everything, the author could not even write the communists correctly, as he distorted him from the title. Then it turned out that the communists are Russian in the main. What was the conclusion, kill the Russians. Mr. Shpakovsky is on the right path. Looks like someone wants a new civilian.
    1. +3
      9 September 2016 15: 21
      And in my opinion just the Russian Bolsheviks can be counted on the fingers. Was the whole top of the 1917 coup of the year really made up of Russians? There were no Russians and 20%, since what kind of Russophobia are we talking about? Are you drunk or foolishly writing this? It seems Lenin was a maternal form, or am I confusing something?
      1. +2
        9 September 2016 15: 40
        Ahem ... Vyacheslav Olegovich, but is that you? Or which of the students under your nickname in the comments practices?
        1. +1
          9 September 2016 17: 18
          Of course, I, how can a student use my nickname ?!
          1. 0
            9 September 2016 17: 45
            But somehow it doesn’t look like you ... (I'm not talking about the article).
        2. +3
          9 September 2016 18: 11
          tanit Today, 15:40 ↑
          Ahem ... Vyacheslav Olegovich, but is that you?


          You can be sure. Checked. IN. he is so ambiguous, He knows how to lie like every Catholic. And not about Catholics, does he write fairy tales to us? And why not about the Russian people? Ah, but it’s not interesting what kind of Ilya Muromets are (but his relics are just stored in the? Kiev? Monasteries, underground). So whose are they Kiev, and the land near it? And what are the Czechs there? IN. lying to us more, he is trying to lower us in Bologna, people who know life. I never wanted to write on this resource, I accidentally saw it.
          All the same, Vyacheslav Olegovich, did we have to talk, and was there even? mutual respect.
          Gone
          Now you are not with the Russian people. With you "bastards" Look who supported you?
          1. +1
            9 September 2016 18: 28
            Yes, I supported Vyacheslav Olegovich. I don’t know who the "Russian" people are for you personally - perhaps those who are zigging in the fascist "Azov"?
            And then, which of us is "bastard"?
          2. 0
            10 September 2016 12: 45
            Oh, not a big loss! You are not the editor of Voprosy istorii or the head of the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation. I would reckon with their opinion, but I don't care about yours, you know somehow ...
    2. +2
      9 September 2016 16: 45
      Quote: timyr
      Correctly say anti-adviser-always Russophobe

      Correctly say the communist is always Russophobe
      1. +1
        9 September 2016 17: 48
        Correctly say-Russophobia and so more than enough. Only one thing I note - this is not about V.O. Shpakovsky.
      2. 0
        10 September 2016 13: 00
        Previously, it was called differently - an internationalist!
      3. 0
        10 September 2016 14: 44
        Quote: Aleksander
        Correctly say the communist is always Russophobe

        It’s more correct to say: Romanian, Moldovan is always a Russophobe. He served with Moldovans. By the way, Ukrainians are also Russophobes. And the Armenians. Alexander, you as a Moldovan are always wrong (why? Because you are nobody. While you were part of the USSR, it meant something, now it’s nothing. 0 without a wand). If you like the caliber - this does not mean that you like the Russians. They rather hate you.
  9. +1
    9 September 2016 18: 10
    Quote: kalibr
    And in my opinion just the Russian Bolsheviks can be counted on the fingers. Was the whole top of the 1917 coup of the year really made up of Russians? There were no Russians and 20%, since what kind of Russophobia are we talking about? Are you drunk or foolishly writing this? It seems Lenin was a maternal form, or am I confusing something?

    You know, write interesting articles. But when you write about the Communists, you get hooked, complete nonsense goes. I wonder why you write this. Especially this passage about Lenin’s mother or this nonsense about 20% of Russians. For example, let’s take a look at Lenin’s mother, she was nee Blank and what of this, you already agree to the end.
    1. +1
      9 September 2016 19: 15
      Quote: timyr
      But when you write about the Communists, you get hooked, complete nonsense goes.

      This is not nonsense.
    2. 0
      10 September 2016 12: 58
      Reclining? But here you will not try to look? 1. See more details: Tsvetkov V. Zh. Legion of the Civil War. Independent Military Review No. 48 (122), December 18 1998.
      2. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 c. 1.
      3. "About events". Ibid. C.1
      4. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 3105 (208), May 29 1918 C.2.
      5. Suslavyachus L., Shpakovsky V. Rebellious armor. Tankmaster, №6, 2002. C.17-21.
      6. Chechek S. From Penza to the Urals - The Will of the People (Prague), 1928, No. XXUMX-8. C.9-252.
      7.L.G. Priceg. Czechoslovak Corps in 1918. Questions of history, No.5, 2012. C.96.
      And 20% of Russians in the leadership of the Bolshevik coup is even an overestimated value. You can do a little research yourself through Google.
  10. +2
    9 September 2016 18: 12
    Quote: tanit
    Correctly say-Russophobia and so more than enough. Only one thing I note - this is not about V.O. Shpakovsky.

    Well, why Mr. Shpakovsky is on the right track, in Ukraine everything also began. We are not against the Russians, we are against the commies. Remind me how it ended.
    1. +1
      9 September 2016 18: 37
      And where did you notice this? That is, the fact that (in your words "commies") the communist defenders organized a competent defense, which they could not break through without armored vehicles - is this not indicated in the article? The fact that at the end of the article there is a photograph of the monument to the Red Guards is not noticeable, right? And the "playful" tone is so that the meaning of the article would even reach the victims of the exam. And the meaning is in the facts about the storming of the city of Penza. How did it happen that the White Czechs nevertheless took Penza.
      Well, as I understand it, you personally are a secret - a hidden baker. laughing Is not it?
      1. +1
        9 September 2016 19: 00
        Czech legionnaires have never been whiteCzechs, this is a gross mistake. If expressed in primitive Sovdep language, then ....... Black Hundred scumbags and speculators were engaged in murders and robberies under the leadership of the white whites.It would sound something like that.
        The assault of the city of Penza, armored vehicles, competent defense - it would be necessary less pathos.
  11. +3
    9 September 2016 18: 50
    Quote: tanit
    And where did you notice this? That is, the fact that (in your words "commies") the communist defenders organized a competent defense, which they could not break through without armored vehicles - is this not indicated in the article? The fact that at the end of the article there is a photograph of the monument to the Red Guards is not noticeable, right? And the "playful" tone is so that the meaning of the article would even reach the victims of the exam. And the meaning is in the facts about the storming of the city of Penza. How did it happen that the White Czechs nevertheless took Penza.
    Well, as I understand it, you personally are a secret - a hidden baker. laughing Is not it?

    Well, for example, Mr. Shpakovsky kept silent about the fact that the French general commanded the Czechs. Secondly, Shpakovsky writes that the Bolsheviks provoked the Czechs with their demand to disarm, but forgets about the Entente who did not need captured Germans on the western front. And he is silent about the fact that the Allies also provoked an uprising. And the tone of the article is ernical.
    1. +3
      9 September 2016 19: 21
      Quote: timyr
      Well, for example, Mr. Shpakovsky was silent ....

      By dates:
      20 May 1918 the delegates of the Czechoslovak corps at the general meeting decided on an armed uprising against Soviet power.
      25 May Order No. 377 of the People’s Commissar of War L. Trotsky was issued, obliging all Soviets from Penza to Omsk to disarm Czechoslovakians and intern them in prisoner-of-war camps.
  12. +3
    9 September 2016 21: 12
    Great stuff. Thank!
    The absurdity of the presentation of the "White-Czech mutine" in the Civil War
    cut me back in the school curriculum.
    They were going to go to Red Moscow - badly. Okay.
    Farther away from Red Moscow to the east - also bad. Do not please! smile
    But then there were no archival materials.
    1. 0
      10 September 2016 11: 11
      here again the Jewish trace! laughing
  13. 0
    9 September 2016 21: 29
    East is a delicate matter; East and Byzantine politics everywhere
  14. +1
    9 September 2016 22: 29
    Yes, there is a heated discussion, but let me ask: why did the Czechs obey the illegitimate (as they would say now) Bolshevik government? As far as I know, the Kerensky government was previously called temporary until the election of the Constituent Assembly and the adoption of the state’s form of government. As you know, the Bolsheviks took this opportunity from the Constituent Assembly of the Russian Republic --- by dispersing and banning this representative body of the all-Russian nation’s expression --- the usurpation of the people is evident authorities, respectively, this is a coup that caused a protest throughout the country.
    1. +1
      9 September 2016 23: 39
      Quote: semirek
      let me ask: why did the Czechs obey the illegitimate (as they would say now) Bolshevik government? ....

      "As far as I know," the Provisional Government was created as a result of an anti-monarchist coup ..... ... by forcing the legitimate king to abdicate --- "there is a usurpation of people's power, respectively, this is a coup, which caused a protest phenomenon throughout the country." wink
      And the Czechs obeyed the foreign legitimate French government. wink

      Grimaces of history. The Czechs who fought for Russia from the beginning of the revolt turned into interventionists. (See the "conspiracy" in the French embassy. Try to make a chronology of events from this moment although before the start of the rebellion in Penza) and were marked by atrocities and looting in our Civil War on the side of the whites. By the way, and in the robbery of the Russian "gold reserve". It is Shpakovsky's they are "fluffy." Although, I think that this is a tragedy for the Czechs who ended up in the wrong time and in the wrong place and fell into the millstones of the Civil War.
      And, the initial success of the rebellion was due to the suddenness, organization of the legionnaires, initially occupied by strategic points and the absence of an army among the Bolsheviks. With the creation and strengthening of the Red Army, the whites and other interventionists, together with the White Brotherhood, were thrown out of the country. So I represent the participation of Czechs in our Civil War.
  15. +1
    9 September 2016 23: 25
    Quote: timyr
    Quote: tanit
    And where did you notice this? That is, the fact that (in your words "commies") the communist defenders organized a competent defense, which they could not break through without armored vehicles - is this not indicated in the article? The fact that at the end of the article there is a photograph of the monument to the Red Guards is not noticeable, right? And the "playful" tone is so that the meaning of the article would even reach the victims of the exam. And the meaning is in the facts about the storming of the city of Penza. How did it happen that the White Czechs nevertheless took Penza.
    Well, as I understand it, you personally are a secret - a hidden baker. laughing Is not it?

    Well, for example, Mr. Shpakovsky kept silent about the fact that the French general commanded the Czechs. Secondly, Shpakovsky writes that the Bolsheviks provoked the Czechs with their demand to disarm, but forgets about the Entente who did not need captured Germans on the western front. And he is silent about the fact that the Allies also provoked an uprising. And the tone of the article is ernical.

    Dear, the author of the article writes only about the episode of the Czechoslovak corps' stay in Russia, literally at the very beginning of the confrontation between the Soviet authorities and the Czechs, when there was no government of the Comuch and the Omsk government and Kolchak and, accordingly, the city of Zhanen at the head of the allied forces in Siberia-- -that you are just not accurate
    1. +1
      10 September 2016 12: 53
      The funny thing is that in the material all the links are given. Here they are: that is, everything can be checked. But people write some kind of nonsense about a forgotten French general, although on May 28 there was no trace of him. They even confuse concepts such as reasons and excuses that pass in the 5th grade. By the way, I am 100% sure that none of the "critics" will read even the first and last materials available from all this! It is clear that links 2,3,4, XNUMX, XNUMX can be viewed only in Penza, and Chechek’s book is generally a ratite. But everything else ... And it turns out - no links - bad. There are links - too bad!
      1. See more: Tsvetkov V. Zh. Legion of the Civil War. Independent Military Review No. 48 (122), December 18 1998.
      2. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 c. 1.
      3. "About events". Ibid. C.1
      4. Proceedings of the Penza Council of Workers', Peasants' and Soldiers' Deputies ”№36 (239). 2 March 1918 3105 (208), May 29 1918 C.2.
      5. Suslavyachus L., Shpakovsky V. Rebellious armor. Tankmaster, №6, 2002. C.17-21.
      6. Chechek S. From Penza to the Urals - The Will of the People (Prague), 1928, No. XXUMX-8. C.9-252.
      7.L.G. Priceg. Czechoslovak Corps in 1918. Questions of history, No.5, 2012. C.96.
      1. +2
        10 September 2016 20: 09
        Charming Amazing! I am delighted with your comment!
        I read your "The Siege of Famagusta ..." I did not know, it was interesting and informative. But, this is not the history of our country. Let's go back to the history of Russia.
        The role of the Czechoslovak rebellion in the Civil War is important - it influenced all the events of that time.
        So:
        Your comment is much and nothing. The bureaucrat official can be envious.
        You have not directly answered a single question. To nobody.
        Quote: kalibr
        The funny thing is that in the material all the links are given

        Quote: kalibr
        It is clear that you can see links 2,3,4 only in Penza, and Chechek’s book is generally a ratite. But everything else ... And it turns out - no links - bad. There are links - also bad!

        We omit the ethics of bringing this link, it is clear to me and this is another topic, but can this link be considered an argument?
        Quote: kalibr
        5. Suslaviachus L., Shpakovsky V. Rebel armor. Tankmaster, No. 6, 2002. P.17-21.

        We assume that there are no links.
        So, you, as a historian, deny the following chronology ?:
        - Several Western decisions on intervention. As far as I remember, the first was adopted back in 1917;
        - The beginning of the intervention.
        - The rebellion of Czechoslovakians, prepared and supported by the Entente. In total, 14 states took part in the intervention. And, the active participation of the French, it was the default. To whom is Imperial Russia most indebted?
        -Participation of Czechoslovakians and other interventionists on the side of the whites.
        And, you as a historian with regalia, a local historian, just a public figure did not know anything about the two mentioned monuments? They only told you about them now. Will you write about them?
        I think that monuments to the Czechs can be in Russia. This is their tragedy. But not grandiose and only in burial places and not on every stop. And, the inscriptions should be appropriate. Too many came to our land with weapons. If you put up monuments to all the enemies who have laid our heads, there will be nowhere to plow.
        I will repeat myself. The article does not correspond to the data on either the victims, or the atrocities, or the "discovery" of three armored cars, neither by dates, nor by reasons of the mutiny, nor by its beginning .... She is half-truth, half-lie. I wrote about the comments.
  16. 0
    10 September 2016 21: 28
    Who were the "White Czechs", were they all blond, or painted with white paint? They were prisoners of war from Austria-Hungary. They surrendered willingly, they wanted to fight on the side of Russia. And they fought! That is, they were ALLIES of the Russian Army against the Germans and Austrians. Only the Bolsheviks called them White Czechs. Having concluded a separate Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, they betrayed their allies in the Entente, but also new Czechs and Slovaks-Slavs who fought on their side. internees) .That is, turned into ENEMIES! WHO LIKES THIS ?! angry
    Well, then there was a local war on its territory (mainly along the railway road), with all the "charms" from all sides. hi
  17. 0
    12 September 2016 07: 51
    Soviet Russia became an ally of Kaiser Germany? There was a personnel army in Penza that could resist. Look at the photos, what are the machine guns on the bells ?! What is the use of them? Interesting, but you need to be careful in evaluating things that you don’t really understand and do without unnecessary emotions!

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