Military Review

Katyn tragedy: three conflicting versions

55
Katyn tragedy: three conflicting versionsThe three official versions of the Katyn tragedy are increasingly opposed to scientifichistorical version


At present, in the Russian Federation, quite officially, at the level of the highest state authorities, there are three completely mutually exclusive versions of the Katyn tragedy.

Version number 1. "Public Political Version"

According to the “public political version”, in April-May 1940 of the USSR on the basis of the mythical supra-legal decision of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) and criminal rulings of some kind of illegal “special NKVD troika” 14.552 Polish prisoners of war were shot: 4.421 Polish officer of the Kozel camp - in the Goat Mountains near Smolensk, 3.820 a prisoner of war officer from the Starobelsky camp - in Kharkov Pyatikhatki, 6.311 prisoners of war of the policemen from the Ostashkovsky camp - in Mednoy near Kalinin.

In addition, on the basis of the decisions of the same illegal “special troika of the NKVD”, then at the same time 3.435 prisoners of Polish citizens from the prisons of Western Ukraine and 3.870 prisoners from the prisons of Western Belarus were allegedly shot.

Version number 2. “Official Legal Version”which the executive branch of the Russian government in the person of the Ministry of Justice, the General Prosecutor's Office and other law enforcement agencies adheres to in situations giving rise to legal consequences, especially if these consequences are international legal.

According to the “official legal version”, no less than 1.380 Polish prisoners of war were buried in the Goat Mountains, no less than 180 Polish officers were shot in Kharkov Pyatikhatki, and no less than 243 Polish police officers were shot in the Pyatikhatki Kharkov.

But at the same time, according to the same version, none of the 14.442 Polish prisoners of war sent in April-May 1940 from the Kozelsky, Starobelsky and Ostashkov camps were shot in the spring of 1940 on the territory of the USSR and they all continue to be considered missing in legal terms without a trace.

The published version of the “official legal version” does not explain the reasons for the discrepancy in 10 of thousands of people between the number of Polish prisoners of war (1940) missing in April-May and the number of Polish prisoners of war 14.542 according to “public political version ”(1940).

Version number 3. "The well-known historical version"which adheres to the judicial branch of the Russian government. 14 February 2012. This version was once again legally confirmed by a decision of the Tverskoy District Court of the Mountains. Moscow at the suit of the grandson of Stalin Evgeny Dzhugashvili to the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation.

This version is based on the final “Message ....” of the Burdenko Commission of 25 in January of 1944 and the sentence of the International Military Tribunal of 1 in October of 1946. This version has never been voiced by major politicians of the USSR and the Russian Federation over the past 60 years.

The paradox is that few people in Russia even realize that it is precisely this historical version that continues to be “generally known” in a strictly legal sense, and that it is this that gives rise to legal consequences in the Russian Federation in the event of legal conflicts related to the Katyn tragedy.

According to the “well-known historical version”, 11.000 prisoners of war Polish officers from the Kozelsky, Starobelsky and Ostashkov camps who were shot by the Nazis in September 1941 were buried in the Goat Mountains. In this version it is assumed that the 11.000 are missing in XNUM Polish officers from prisons in Western Ukraine and Western Belarus.

The fate of Polish policemen from the Ostashkov camp and civilians from the prisons of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus who went missing in 1940 were not considered in the framework of the “well-known historical version”. It is also important to note that the “well-known historical version” in every way avoids identifying, discussing and critical understanding of specific historical and legal facts related to the places and circumstances of the future victims of the Katyn massacre in the USSR from the late spring of 1940 until the beginning of the Great Patriotic War. of war.

It should be especially emphasized that the three official versions mentioned above contradict each other and are mutually exclusive not in some minor or minor details, but in principle facts and circumstances of the Katyn tragedy.

The three official versions of the Katyn tragedy in recent years are increasingly opposed to the scientific and historical version, which is adhered to by the participants of the international Internet project “Truth about Katyn” and the most conscientious representatives of the Russian and international scientific community.

According to the scientific and historical version of the Katyn events and the Katyn massacre, no one at all shot the Polish police officers from the Ostashkov camp — neither the Germans nor the NKVD officers of the USSR. A significant number of them died in Soviet labor camps from natural causes in 1940-47. However, many (several thousand people) survived until liberation and were able to return to their relatives in Poland, Western Ukraine and Western Belarus in 1940-50-s.

The starting point of the legal procedure, which eventually led to the Katyn tragedy, within the framework of the historical version is to consider the date of the political decision of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) to condemn prisoners of war of the Ostashkov camp to corrective labor under the NKVD of the USSR.

There is no doubt that such a decision of the Politburo existed. No other authority of the Soviet Union at that time had the authority to make a decision of such a high degree of international political importance. It is most likely that this decision was made by the 3 Politburo of December 1939 of the year - simultaneously with the decision to arrest all registered officers of the former Polish Army.

The second most important “nodal” point of the legal background of the Katyn events is the decision of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B) March 5 of 1940 to condemn Polish prisoners of war from the Ostashkov, Starobelsk and Kozel camps, as well as prisoners from the Ukrainian SSR, BSSR and RSFSR prisons in the so-called “special the procedure ”of judicial proceedings - the verdicts of the Commission for Investigation Cases of the NKVD and the Prosecutor of the USSR (the notorious“ two ”). This political decision was the beginning of the Katyn events themselves.

The fact of conviction on the territory of the USSR in 1940 about 25-26.000 of citizens of the former Poland by the verdicts of the Commission on Investigative Cases of the NKVD and the Prosecutor of the USSR can be considered fully historically established even in the absence of the sentences of the two. In particular, the fact of condemnation of the “Katyn Poles” by this extraordinary court of the USSR is confirmed by the fact that the term “Commission” (with a capital letter!) Is repeatedly mentioned in the official correspondence of the NKVD related to the conviction of Polish prisoners of war and arrested the numbering system of the “lists of dispatches” of prisoners of war is similar to the numbering system of the minutes of the meetings of the “two”, which sentenced the “Katyn Poles”.

In total, the Commission on Investigative Cases of the NKVD and the Procurator of the USSR issued 74 group sentences to “Katyn Poles” (in practice, “two” sentences were executed in the form of “meeting minutes”). The first one is dated April 1, the last 14 December 1940. In addition, it should be emphasized that the criminal procedure term “special order” is inextricably linked with the activities of the “two”.

The third “key” legal point of the Katyn tragedy was a partial (so-called “military”) amnesty from 12 July 1941. More precisely, the fact of its distribution to convicted Polish officers from Vyazemlag and the fact of its non-proliferation to convicted Polish police from the Matkožnensky camp and located the neighborhood of the camp sites of the former Beltbaltlag.

Both of these facts played a very dramatic role in the fate of convicted Polish prisoners of war. Convicted Polish officers from Vyazemlag after 12 amnesty of July 1941 were uncoupled and therefore were not subject to compulsory escort to the Soviet rear in the order of USKV-39 (“Statute of the convoy troops service of the NKVD of the USSR”). At the same time, they evacuated voluntary evacuation to the Soviet rear, as a result of which they were captured by German prisoners, where, a few weeks later, the absolute majority of them were shot.

Condemned Polish police because of their attempt at an armed uprising in Matkozhlag in the spring of 1941 were recognized as “anti-Soviet now-minded”, as a result of which neither the “first military” amnesty from July 12 or the 12 was extended to them August 1941 of the year. As a result, they sat in the Soviet labor camps until the end of World War II.

After its completion, the “Katyn” Polish police, unlike those detained in camps before the end of hostilities of Soviet citizens, were released from prison not in large quantities, but in small parties or individually. Their subsequent return from remote regions of the Soviet Union to their relatives at a pre-war place of residence was also difficult. There is a hypothesis that, at least until the middle of the 1950, liberated from forced labor camps by a “Katyn” Polish policeman was generally forbidden to leave the USSR.

The formal legal basis for the Katyn massacre in September 1941 was the refusal of interned Polish officers to take the oath of allegiance to Nazi Germany and personally to Adolf Hitler. Because of this, in late August-early September 1941, they were recognized as “politically unreliable” and administratively sentenced to death. Approximately 10% of the officers who agreed to swear allegiance to the Nazis avoided execution.

The most mysterious and least studied legal topic of the Katyn tragedy is the legal background of the third component of this historical problem - the so-called “Katyn case”, started by the German authorities in April 1943. In view of the fact that the Katyn case was originally a special propaganda operation of German special services developed by full secrecy, and in the same secrecy mode resumed during the cold war by non-public supranational political structures with Since Western intelligence agencies (and after 1987, the USSR special services), there are no archival documents on this subject in the free scientific circulation.

The current legal situation around the Katyn tragedy is extremely confusing and in many ways controversial.

The overall criminal and legal assessment of the Katyn massacre was given by the International Military Tribunal. By the procedural decision of MW 14 of February 1946, the guilt of Nazi Germany in the Katyn massacre was established as the so-called “legal fact generating legal consequences”, and the MH sentence of 1 of October 1946 established the personal guilt in organizing the Katyn crime of defendants German Hering and Alfred Jodl (the rest of the 22 accused at the Nuremberg trials did not incriminate the Katyn episode).

In addition, the culpability of Nazi Germany in the Katyn massacre was established as a “legal fact giving rise to legal consequences” by a sentence of the Third Supreme Court of Bulgaria of 28 February 1945 in the “Trial of the perpetrators of Bulgaria’s involvement in the world war against the allied nations” and the sentence The Nuremberg Military Tribunal of 10 on April 1948 at the “Ninth Subsequent Nuremberg Trials” (“The Trial“ The People of the United States Against Otto Olendorf ”or the Einsatzgruppen Group). Personally guilty of leading the Katyn massacre by conviction of the Nuremberg Military Tribunal of 10 on April 1948, the SS Brigadeführer Erich Naumann was recognized.

The civil and legal consequences of the Katyn massacre were the subject of legal proceedings at several thousand civil law fact-finding trials that took place in Poland in the post-war period. In all these processes, the Polish courts used as a legal basis for making their judgments the legal fact of the guilt of Nazi Germany in the Katyn massacre, established by the International Military Tribunal, and the Katyn massacre date “September 1941” established at the Nuremberg process.

However, at the height of the Cold War, after the resumption of the 1951-52. falsifications of the Katyn case by the American Madden Commission; attempts to falsify the Katyn tragedy also began at the legal level. In particular, in the US 1950 several dozens of politicized lawsuits were filed against the government of the Soviet Union for compensation for material and moral damage in connection with the loss of a breadwinner initiated by relatives of Katyn victims living in the United States.

Ignoring the legal facts established by the verdicts of the International and Nuremberg military tribunals of 1 in October 1946 and April 10 in 1948, the American courts, contrary to historical truth, unlawfully awarded large sums of money to the relatives of the Katyn victims who were to receive from the Soviet Union.

The most recent court decision on the Katyn case so far is the decision of the Fifth Section of the European Court of Human Rights of April 16 of 2012 in the case of Janowiec and Others v. Russia, confirmed by 21 of October 2013 by the Grand Chamber of the ECHR.

This decision also ignores the legal facts established by the verdicts of the International and Nuremberg military tribunals of 1 in October 1946 and 10 in April 1948. Moreover, when making its decision, the judges of the ECHR pointedly did not take into account the arguments of the “official legal version” of the Russian Federation and all the principal facts and circumstances of the Katyn tragedy took the position of the Polish side, which fully coincides with the “public political version”.

By the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights in the case of “Yanovets and Others v. Russia” of 16 on April 2012 and 21 in October 2013, the perpetrator of the Katyn massacre, contrary to the historical truth and sentence of the International Military Tribunal, recognized the Soviet Union war crimes of Nazi Germany indirectly entrusted to the Russian Federation.

By these unjust decisions, the Soviet Union is legally equated with Nazi Germany. The outcome of the “Katyn” case “Yanovets and Others Against Russia” has caused enormous damage to the national interests of the Russian Federation, moreover, they pose a serious threat to the national security of our country.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.km.ru/science-tech/2016/09/04/istoriya-khkh-veka/783546-katynskaya-tragediya-tri-protivorechivykh-versii
55 comments
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  1. OLD FART
    OLD FART 11 September 2016 12: 44
    +18
    Where to send them was ..? White-Chekhov remember? And these with ambition and all fled from the Germans .. And the rights began to download! Sorry for them, of course, but they remember our captured Red Army soldiers (100 thousand starved and simply destroyed) Nobody remembers this, that .. We did everything right! hi
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 11 September 2016 20: 03
      +3
      Quote: STARPER
      Sorry for them of course

      Not to me
      and if you now listen to their secretary of defense, then dig up and shoot again
    2. Alexey T. (Oper)
      Alexey T. (Oper) 13 September 2016 08: 42
      +1
      What do you mean "we did everything right"? We did nothing other than keeping them in POW camps and then granting amnesty.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 11 September 2016 12: 48
    +14
    The decision of the ECHR .. This is a purely political decision and no more .. Like the boycott of the Winter Olympics in Sochi for far-fetched reasons .. the doping scandal of the Summer Olympics .. And equating the USSR with Nazi Germany .. this would reconsider the post-war borders .. in the world .. need a pretext ..
  3. paul 99
    paul 99 11 September 2016 12: 52
    +7
    Dog canine death.
  4. avt
    avt 11 September 2016 12: 55
    +16
    LADIES during it gave several volumes of copies of documents on this "Case" and that's what is interesting - the Poles received and placed in their "Institute of Memory" INSTANTLY classified the documents received! The Institute of Memory "somehow sharply decided to lose the memory!
    1. OLD FART
      OLD FART 11 September 2016 14: 21
      +8
      They fled, but they had to defend their homeland! The traitors of the Germans were scared, and in captivity with us, they began to show their ambition, so that we would take off the Budenovka in front of the "masters" and bow our heads ... Wasn't that so?
      They were immediately consumed .... (the Germans would have burned them in the ovens ..) ... And I still remember that they received an order from London "Uprising in Warsaw" ... How the Germans began to crumble them there, and ours rushed to Berlin. ... I had to send the Army to "liberate" .. Without preparation and reconnaissance ... 100 thousand soldiers were put down, taking Warsaw and so that the Germans would not blow it up ..! After all, so Poles ... You are now destroying our monuments with bulldozers ... Next time this will not happen ... hi
      1. Shadowcat
        Shadowcat 11 September 2016 17: 18
        +5
        Quote: STARPER
        .100 thousand soldiers put, taking Warsaw and that the Germans did not blow it ..!

        Rather, it would not include the Soviets with the support of real Polish patriots - the Army of Ludov. (Not to be confused with the jackals of Craiova who organized that massacre)
    2. Basil50
      Basil50 13 September 2016 09: 26
      0
      auth
      Your information * is outdated * today the Poles say that the documents are DISAPPEARED * in a completely unknown direction *.
  5. APASUS
    APASUS 11 September 2016 13: 10
    +9
    I will write banal things, but I do not understand, first of all, the behavior of the Russian authorities in relation to this tragedy.
    To exhume the bodies of the dead. To carry out work in the archives, so many (prisoners of war) did not leave the slightest trace on their further fate, it is very strange.
    For me, this is just another element of political struggle on the world stage, there is no other way to explain it. Well, of course, here the legs grow from local defenders, muddy the water or get kickback
    1. Shadowcat
      Shadowcat 11 September 2016 17: 57
      +2
      Quote: APASUS
      To exhume the bodies of the dead. To carry out work in the archives,

      Mukhin Katyn detective.
      Unpleasant reading matter (for you understand that this is not a fantasy where imaginary people are, but people) from which it turned out a couple of times.
  6. Homo
    Homo 11 September 2016 13: 30
    +7
    And the article is muddy if you read it carefully and delve into all the lines. "At present, in the Russian Federation, quite officially, at the level of the highest bodies of state power, there are three completely mutually exclusive versions of the Katyn tragedy." We started with this.

    Let's start curling our fingers:

    - “According to the“ public political version ”, in April-May 1940 on the territory of the USSR, on the basis of the mythical over-legal decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) and the criminal decisions of a certain illegal“ special NKVD troika ”, 14.552 Polish prisoners of war were shot: 4.421 Polish prisoners of war from Kozelsky camp - in the Goat Hills near Smolensk, 3.820 a prisoner of war officer from the Starobelsk camp - in the Kharkov Pyatikhatki, 6.311 police prisoners of war from the Ostashkov camp - in Medny near Kalinin.

    In addition, on the basis of the decisions of the same illegal "special troika of the NKVD" at the same time, 3.435 prisoners of Polish citizens from the prisons of Western Ukraine and 3.870 prisoners from the prisons of Western Belarus were allegedly shot. "

    Is this recognized at the level of the highest bodies of state power? But isn’t it nonsense? am

    - "In recent years, the three official versions of the Katyn tragedy have been increasingly opposed by the scientific and historical version, which is adhered to by the participants of the international Internet project" The Truth About Katyn "and the most conscientious representatives of the Russian and international scientific community."

    And who are the authors of this "scientific-historical version"? Who are the "participants in the international Internet project" The Truth About Katyn "? Who ordered and paid for this scientific historical research? am

    - "The starting point for the beginning of the legal procedure, which ultimately led to the Katyn tragedy, within the framework of the scientific and historical version, it is proposed to consider the date of the adoption of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Bolsheviks) of the political decision to condemn prisoners of war in the Ostashkovsky camp to corrective labor by the sentences of the Special Meeting under the NKVD of the USSR ...

    There is not the slightest doubt that such a decision of the Politburo existed. "

    And besides the words "There is not the slightest doubt that such a decision of the Politburo existed." are there any documents, evidence, facts? am

    - "The most mysterious and least explored the legal theme ... begun by the German authorities in April 1943. In view of the fact that the Katyn case was originally a special propaganda operation of the German secret services, developed in full secrecy, and in the same privacy mode renewed during the Cold War ... (and after 1987 - and the USSR special services), then any archival documents on this account in free scientific circulation no."

    So what can we talk about, what to base on, what should be considered evidence if there is NOTHING! am

    - "Ignoring the legal facts established by the judgments of the International and Nuremberg military tribunals of October 1, 1946 and April 10, 1948, the American courts, contrary to historical truth, unlawfully awarded in these processes significant sums of money to the relatives of the Katyn victims, which they should have received from the Soviet Union. " And this ended.

    That says it all! request recourse No. sad what
    1. ty60
      ty60 11 September 2016 16: 08
      +2
      Let’s add-KGB in the forties planned to kill the president of Poland, and systematically led the work
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 13 September 2016 09: 24
        0
        No, it has already been proved, with photo documents, that he personally shot down the plane AND IN STALIN, when he * planted * a birch at this airfield.
  7. starshina wmf
    starshina wmf 11 September 2016 14: 11
    +7
    And what after the "nasty Poles" tortured more than 100 thousand Red Army men in 1920 that they had to pat them on the head and release them. But hell, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. We did everything right. And there is no reason for us to apologize to nits ...
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 15: 18
      +5
      And what after the "filthy Poles" tortured more than 100 thousand Red Army soldiers in 1920 that they had to pat them on the head and let go
      So they tortured the "slaves" and "", the women still give birth, and they shot the gentry and the nobility - "blue blood", that's why there are so many screams.
  8. Sasha75
    Sasha75 11 September 2016 14: 24
    +7
    I participated in the excavations myself and as a witness I can tell a lot. Shot with a weapon 7.65 mm browning sleeves come across. Everywhere, the Poles kept an eye out and shouted TT cartridges. soil sand retained good stigmas readable by the naked eye and distinguish TT. from small cartridges, everyone can probably for this reason were often destroyed by the Poles, guess for yourself why. The depth of up to two meters of the burial of the body in outer clothing leather jackets bags even leather suitcases preserved can be understood even identified the tank jacket of the Polish army. Gold and silver jewelry money in the form of coins are present in almost every coin come across and our German and Polish have not brought a conclusion and shot. And when is the question.
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 15: 15
      +4
      Everywhere, the Poles kept an eye out and shouted TT cartridges. soil sand retained good hallmarks readable by the naked eye
      The TT cartridge is an almost complete copy of the Mauser cartridge, but everyone puts the stigma on the bottom
    2. Alexey T. (Oper)
      Alexey T. (Oper) 13 September 2016 08: 55
      +2
      In the question of the casings found during the exhumations, another nuance is interesting: when the Burdenko commission opened two graves that were not excavated by the Germans, in addition to the pistol casings of the Gekko firm, two casings from the German Mauser-98K carbine were found, as indicated in the protocol with the inventory items found during repeated exhumation. A scan of the protocol can be found here http://katynfiles.com/content/pamyatnykh-burdenko
      -materials.html
  9. iury.vorgul
    iury.vorgul 11 September 2016 14: 34
    +14
    Here some comrades write in their comments as if they have no doubt that our Poles were shot: "And they did the right thing." I would also agree with this position if I were not convinced that the Poles in Katyn were shot by the Germans.
  10. moskowit
    moskowit 11 September 2016 15: 04
    +9
    Mutotnya somehow. Nobody has ever presented documents on this matter. Except for the documents of the Nuremberg Trials. Then someone announced that there were some papers on this case in the safe at GorMikhSer ... Which again no one saw. I wonder then, and from which officers were formed the 60 thousandth army of Anders, who treacherously left our country, armed and supplied this military association with everything necessary? Something about this is our advocates of "true Western democratic values" and do not stutter, "keep quiet in a rag" !!! am am angry
  11. antivirus
    antivirus 11 September 2016 15: 12
    +5
    Grandfather served as a driver in 32-36 in Rybnitsa (father was born in Balta 34g) as a tankman and clearly said in the 70s: who is your main ally Brezhnev? Poles? - not reliable. betray.
    The father was counting. that in the PMR-Rybnitsa they were guarding against Romania. but no: against the Polish "from can to can."
    Enmity has been going on for centuries and neither the teddy bear with Yakovlev, nor the EBN with dem Russia have taken action (hl-privatization and liberal values)
    The goal is achieved: + 30 million, to the Western world, hostile to Russia created and constantly fueled by this Katyn theme.
    If Poles were shot there, but "in the usual number of criminal and political repressions" and not 15 thousand, but one hundred or three hundred or 500 people. Is this a crime against humanity and humanity? But Hitler was forgotten.
    truth is not profitable for everyone
    A local historian from Smolensk about (this is another era) of the Napoleonic invasion: "Poles in the French army stoked stoves with icons from churches, for them the Orthodox were heretics." But how does it not infringe on pshek now - they are gay Europeans and you can go in a barbaric country on the street or in the Orthodox Church.
    Only time (100 years or more?) And a strong Russia will smooth this paradox
  12. Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 11 September 2016 15: 23
    +11
    Irrefutable historical facts:
    1. In the USSR there was not a single case of massacre-free massacres, and for the Nazi Germans to shoot at least a hundred thousand people, without trial and sentence, was an ordinary episode. It is unlikely that the NKVD of the USSR was involved in the Katyn execution.
    2. If the leadership of the USSR decided to expel forced labor or to execute the interned Poles, there would be a criminal case, a court verdict and hundreds of witnesses, but there was nothing like that.
    3. Secrecy in such matters was not the custom of the Stalinist CPSU (b), which really relied on the people, in contrast to the nomenclature Khrushchev-Brezhnev CPSU.
    4. Goebbels was the first to scream about the shooting of Poles in Katyn when it became clear that the Reich in the USSR had collapsed and it was necessary to save its skins by refusing to war crimes committed in the USSR by the Wehrmacht.
    1. Shadowcat
      Shadowcat 11 September 2016 18: 08
      +1
      Comrad, catch a * -tch local)

      On my own I will add to your arguments - The strongest proof of "nerastrela" is (attention, pinch your anus to fly into the outer circle of the solar system) (!) Expulsion of peoples (!)!
      And what? well, a million more, a billion less in that case? Who will ask?
      P.S. Yes, there were crimes when the head of the zones allowed prisoners to expend, and they themselves started evacuation. But such were sentenced to vyšak almost a moment.
  13. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 11 September 2016 15: 49
    +6
    Decisions of the courts of 2012,2013 contrary to the verdict of the International Military Tribunal and historical truth. In 2014, the instant appointment of perpetrators with a deadly bombing, systematic actions to demonize Russia.
  14. Sasha75
    Sasha75 11 September 2016 16: 27
    +1

    For highly intelligent fools, he wrote 7.65 BROWNING not a Mauser in black and white or HZ can’t read, here is a photo for those who are especially smart, for sure.
    1. Shadowcat
      Shadowcat 11 September 2016 18: 39
      0
      Lenin said - capture the printing house ..
  15. Sasha75
    Sasha75 11 September 2016 16: 29
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Everywhere, the Poles kept an eye out and shouted TT cartridges. soil sand retained good hallmarks readable by the naked eye
    The TT cartridge is an almost complete copy of the Mauser cartridge, but everyone puts the stigma on the bottom


    It seems to fools everywhere even what they read can not be understood by the ignoramuses of young people.
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 16: 50
      +2
      Especially "smart", before communicating, ask your mom and dad to teach the culture of communication ...
  16. Sasha75
    Sasha75 11 September 2016 16: 49
    +1
    For dull TT sleeves. it wasn’t at all, and on the 7.65x17 shells the Browning said that it was from TT. so chewed everything or explain in more detail. TT liner length. 25mm browning 17 mm, if not blind differences are not even visible to a specialist.
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 18: 37
      +1
      Everything is clear, besides the sleeve 7,65X17 Browning, a straight line, with a groove and a protruding edge, was very different from 7,62X25 TT and 7,63X25 Mauser,
      bottle type, with a groove, but without a hem
  17. The comment was deleted.
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 17: 04
      +1
      Dear, take it easy, there is no one who does not care for your rights, you would rather show a photo from the excavation, especially the shell casings, it was more interesting. And I just said that even finding casings similar to TT-shnye is not a fact that it is they, since they have a "German progenitor", and the truth is quite easy to establish just by looking at the bottom.
      But you should not be rude.
  18. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  19. Anton Yu
    Anton Yu 11 September 2016 17: 08
    0
    The author, did you even read the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights?
  20. Anton Yu
    Anton Yu 11 September 2016 17: 09
    0
    The European Court of Human Rights did not recognize Russia as guilty or innocent of the mass execution of Poles near Katyn. Moreover, the Strasbourg Court, in principle, did not examine this issue on the merits. The applicants in this case did not appeal to the European Court of Human Rights with a request to convict Russia of the execution of their relatives, since in this part they initially admitted that the Strasbourg Court has no right to consider a complaint of alleged violations that occurred in 1940, t .e. 58 years before the entry into force of the Convention in respect of the Russian Federation. Moreover, the Strasbourg Court did not examine on the merits the issue of the guilt of the Soviet authorities in the execution near Katyn. And had no right to consider it. However, this fact is called indisputable in the Decree (paragraphs 152–153).

    The ECtHR press release stated: “The court concluded that the applicants’ relatives should be presumed to have been executed by the Soviet authorities in 1940. ” However, this does not mean that the Strasbourg Court had doubts as to whether the applicants' relatives were shot precisely by the Soviet authorities. It follows from paragraphs 152-156 of the judgment concluding that the applicants' relatives should be presumed to have been shot by the Soviet authorities, despite the fact that the remains of most of them were not found or were not identified.

    Unlike the Resolution of the Chamber of the ECHR, the Resolution of the Grand Chamber does not contain the statement that the Katyn execution is a war crime. Let me remind you that in the Resolution of the Chamber the corresponding conclusion was not a conclusion on the merits of the proceedings. This was only an interim conclusion in a chain of reasoning regarding the question of whether it would be possible to examine the merits of a complaint under Article 2 of the Convention. However, formally, the Chamber, in contrast to the Grand Chamber, did indeed say that the Katyn execution is a war crime in the sense of the IV Hague Convention on the Laws and Customs of the Land War of 1907 and the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War of 1929.

    In accordance with paragraph 1 of Article 44 of the Convention, the ruling of the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights announced today is final, i.e. cannot be revised, canceled or changed (not counting the possibility of correcting errors made in it).
  21. Anton Yu
    Anton Yu 11 September 2016 17: 10
    +1
    Extract from the press release of the European Court of Human Rights (in Russian; PDF format):

    “The court ruled that it can investigate the effectiveness of the investigation into the events that occurred before Russia ratified the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights, provided that there is a“ real connection ”between these events and the entry into force of the Convention. The existence of a “real connection” is determined by two criteria: firstly, the time period between the event and the entry into force of the Convention should be reasonably short and in any case should not exceed ten years, and secondly, a significant part of the investigative actions should have been carried out after the entry into force of the Convention.

    The court concluded that the applicants' relatives should be presumed to have been executed by the Soviet authorities in 1940. The fact of their presence in 1939-40 is undeniable. under the full control of the Soviet authorities. Their names appeared on the lists of Polish prisoners of war, who were to be shot without exception, and the families did not receive any news from the missing prisoners of war after 1940. However, since Russia ratified the Convention in May 1998, i.e. 58 years after the execution of the applicants' relatives, the Court decided, upholding the Chamber’s decision of April 2012, that this period of time was excessively long in absolute terms to establish the existence of a “real link” between their death and the entry into force of the Convention in respect of Russia.

    The investigation into the discovery of mass graves was formally completed in 2004, i.e. after the entry into force of the Convention in relation to Russia. However, key steps in the investigation, such as exhumation, expert research, and a survey of possible witnesses to the executions, were taken in the early 1990s. Moreover, as noted by the Court on the basis of the information contained in the file on the complaint and the arguments of the parties, since May 1998 no real procedural steps have been taken. No new evidence appeared during this period. On this basis, the Court concluded that neither one nor the other criterion for the existence of a “real connection” were fulfilled.

    The Court further recalled that in certain emergency situations that do not meet the criteria for the existence of a “real connection”, a sufficient basis for concluding the existence of such a connection may be the need to ensure real and effective protection of the rights and fundamental values ​​of the Convention. Such a situation may arise in the case of serious crimes under international law, such as war crimes, genocide or crimes against humanity. However, even in these situations, the competence of the Court is limited in time by the events that took place after the adoption of the Convention on November 4, 1950, because only from that moment the Convention began to exist as an international human rights treaty. For this reason, the Grand Chamber confirmed the Chamber’s decision that in the circumstances of the present case there are no facts that could “bridge the bridge” from the distant past to the recent time period after ratification of the Convention by Russia. Accordingly, the examination of a complaint under Article 2 is beyond the temporal competence of the Court.

    <...>

    In its practice, the Court recognized that the suffering of members of the “missing person” family, who live in hope or in despair, may lead to a violation of Article 3 due to the indifference of the authorities to their attempts to find information about the fate of the missing relative. However, in this case, the jurisdiction of the Court extends only to the period after May 1998, when the Convention entered into force in respect of Russia. After this date, there was no doubt about the fate of Polish prisoners of war. Although not all the bodies were discovered, their death was publicly confirmed by the Soviet and then by the Russian authorities and became an established historical fact. Consequently, the case, which first concerned the “disappearance” of the applicants' relatives, by that time had become the case of their “confirmed death”.

    The scale of the crime committed by the Soviet authorities in 1940 is a strong emotional argument. However, from a purely legal point of view, the Court cannot accept it as a basis for changing its established practice regarding family members of “missing persons” and extending this status to applicants for whom the death of their loved ones was evident. In this connection, the Court concluded that the applicants' suffering was not qualitatively different from the emotional trauma that all relatives of victims of serious human rights violations inevitably experience. Accordingly, the Court has not found a violation of Article 3.

    <...>

    In the course of the Chamber’s consideration of the case, the Russian government refused to comply with the Court’s request for a copy of the decision to terminate the criminal investigation of September 2004, citing its secrecy. During the consideration of the case by the Grand Chamber, the government submitted a number of additional documents, but not the requested copy of the decision of September 2004.

    The Court emphasized that only the Court itself can decide what evidence the parties must provide for proper consideration of the case, and that the parties are required to comply with the Court's requirements for the presentation of evidence. The Russian government referred to the fact that the decree was declared secret in Russia, and that Russian laws did not allow the transfer of classified materials to international organizations if their secrecy was not guaranteed. However, the Court indicated that a reference to a defect in the national legal system, which did not allow the transfer of classified documents to international organizations, was not sufficient justification for not providing the requested information. The court does not have the capacity to verify the conclusion of the national authorities that there is a threat to national security, but the rule of law requires that measures affecting fundamental human rights should be considered in an adversarial process by an independent body that has the power to verify the validity of such a conclusion. However, the decisions of the Russian courts during the consideration of the removal of the secrecy bar did not essentially contain an analysis of the grounds for classifying the document. The courts referred to the expert opinion of the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation, according to which the decision to terminate the investigation contained classified materials, but they did not consider why these materials should be kept secret if more than 70 years have passed since the events. Moreover, the courts did not essentially consider the argument of the Memorial that this decision completed the investigation into the massacre of unarmed prisoners of war, i.e. one of the most serious human rights violations committed at the direction of senior Soviet leaders. Finally, the courts did not try to find a fair balance between the need to maintain the secrecy of information belonging to the FSB (the heiress of the Soviet NKVD-KGB, which enforced the decision to shoot Polish prisoners of war), on the one hand, and the public interest in a transparent investigation of the crimes of the past totalitarian regime, with the other side.

    Based on the incomplete consideration of the issue by the Russian courts, the Court was not convinced that the submission of the requested judgment of September 2004 could damage Russia's national security. Moreover, the Russian government could have applied for procedural measures to ensure secrecy, for example, for a closed hearing, but it did not.

    <...>

    By a majority vote, the Court dismissed the applicants' claim for just satisfaction. ”
    29520/09, 55508/07, Janowiec and Others v. Russia
  22. Sasha75
    Sasha75 11 September 2016 17: 23
    +4
    Quote: svp67
    Dear, take it easy, there is no one who does not care for your rights, you would rather show a photo from the excavation, especially the shell casings, it was more interesting. And I just said that even finding casings similar to TT-shnye is not a fact that it is they, since they have a "German progenitor", and the truth is quite easy to establish just by looking at the bottom.
    But you should not be rude.


    As Lavrov said stupid people ...

    For dull TT sleeves. it wasn’t at all, and on the 7.65x17 shells the Browning said that it was from TT. so chewed everything or explain in more detail. TT liner length. 25mm browning 17 mm, if not blind differences are not even visible to a specialist. But as Lavrov told you de ... you don’t understand the difference, you read and where you didn’t even get to the point, but you saw the TT and let's compare who you are after, as Lavrov said correctly
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 17: 32
      0
      Dear you, everyone understood, direct your energy into a peaceful direction ... Stop boiling.
    2. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 18: 06
      0
      Okay, let's try to channel this "srach" in a more productive direction. Speak liner 7,65mm Browning. The first thing that comes across is of course
      The 1900 Browning 1900 Browning Model (FN Browning model 3) was already adopted by the Belgian Army on June 1900, and since 31 March 1901, the Browning 1900 began to be used in the Belgian gendarmerie, and on May 6, the gun was put into service. Soon the gun entered service with the police of Norway, Finland, Denmark, Luxembourg and Croatia. The Browning 1901 pistol was also popular in Russia, where it was usually called Browning No. XXUMX. The pistol was allowed to be acquired privately by the officers of the tsarist army and navy, it was used by postal workers and gendarmerie. More widespread throughout the world Browning 1900 received as a civilian weapon.
      As I understand it, our Korovin pistol is an attempt to copy it. But this trace clearly shows Soviet Russia, since it was popular in the Republic of Ingushetia, it means that the NKVD could have been used. But, again, not everything is so single-purpose, since this cartridge was used:
      - Pistol ČZ vz. 27 - Czech pistol manufactured by Česká zbrojovka (Rus. Czech arms factory). It was in service with the Czechoslovak army and police, and later at the German police forces in Czechoslovakia, Germany had already appeared.
      - but the main thing is Dreyse M1907 - a German combat pistol from the First World War. Used by the German army during the First and Second World Wars.

      - The FÉG 37M is a Hungarian self-loading pistol, developed by the gunsmith designer Rudolf Frommer on the basis of the 29M pistol design in order to increase the manufacturability of the weapon design, one of the models was produced SPECIALLY for the German Army

      - Mauser M1914 and M1934 - German compact self-loading pistols in service German police and army.

      -Mauser HSc (German: Hahn-Selbstspanner-Pistole, Ausführung C - self-cocking pistol, modification “C”) - German self-loading pistol, which he created in 1935-1937. designer Alex Zaidel. (During World War II, the majority of HSc pistols manufactured were supplied to the German armed forces (54,4%), most of the Luftwaffe flight crews and Kriegsmarine officers (10,8%), as well as, in a smaller number, to the SS troops, the Security Service of the SD and the police (11,2%).)

      -Sauer 38H (H from German Hahn - trigger) - a pistol developed in 1932-1937. by JP Sauer & Sohn as a weapon for the police and citizens, but was also supplied to the army

      - Walther PP (German: Polizeipistole - police pistol) - a German self-loading pistol developed by Walter, one of the first mass pistols with a dual-action trigger, one of its modifications was just for this cartridge

      -Walther PPK (German: Polizeipistole Kriminal - criminal police pistol) - German self-loading pistol, a shortened and lightweight model designed on the basis of the Walther PP pistol.

      That is, both Germany and the USSR had the opportunity to use weapons with such a cartridge, is it again a dead end? Or did you manage to document which country produced these cartridges?
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 12 September 2016 11: 51
        +1
        I managed to document through the court that the Yakovlev-Gorbachev Katyn acts are fake. It is also known that the camp with the Poles was until July 1941. It is also known that the NKVD in those years did not tie their hands with barbed wire. It is also roughly known as Blokhin's firing squad that shot in another approximately 780 seemingly Poles.
      2. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 12 September 2016 11: 59
        +3
        And it is also known that there was an unshooted Anders army that fed and safely drove away from the USSR to fight on the other front for allies.
        It is also known that these excavations were made for the first time by the Goebbels department, which could clutter up the necessary cartridges, or simply use such cartridges.
        It is also known that the Poles, who were left without escort cars, refused to evacuate to the Soviet rear on foot, and immediately before the Germans arrived they were alive.
      3. mroy
        mroy 13 September 2016 11: 44
        0
        That is, according to your logic, the NKVD, instead of full-time TTs and Nagans, used pistols assembled from the world on a string under the 7,65 mm Browning cartridge, inherited from the Republic of Ingushetia, which survived the PMV and Civil?
        Cartridges for them were not made in the USSR, that is, it was necessary to take from old stocks (if there were any) or buy new ones for currency.
        Answer one question - why all these difficulties?
  23. Sasha75
    Sasha75 11 September 2016 17: 43
    +1
    [quote = svp67] Dear you, everyone understood, direct your energy in a peaceful direction ... Stop boiling. [/ quote


    Where are your apologies, you moderator hung me for your stupidity do not admit a mistake. What do you think the king and god come on
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 18: 28
      0
      Of course I don’t think so, and I apologize to you for not fully developing your thought, and you understood it in such a peculiar way.
      Well, now isn’t it superfluous for you to apologize for some of your statements? Or do you think that you are right in everything
  24. The comment was deleted.
  25. Sergey333
    Sergey333 11 September 2016 19: 39
    +2
    Already got this Katyn tragedy. Stop procrastinating this topic already. Poles, like Turks, have always been enemies of Russia. It makes no difference to me in what way the enemy soldiers were destroyed - in fair battle or they were simply shot.
  26. midshipman
    midshipman 11 September 2016 19: 43
    +7
    In his youth, he read the book "Katyn Tragedy" Poles were shot by the Germans, who were not yet fascists. And I like the monument to Ivan Susanin with the inscription "Gentlemen of the Poles, I do not promise vodka, but we will walk perfectly."
    In Soviet times, I often had to visit Poland. It was necessary to launch enterprises for the manufacture of ARC for the AN-2. and helicopters. Subordinate to me MKB "Compass" developed them. The country is beautiful, but the people are inhospitable and not grateful. Back in 1982, they destroyed the tombstones of our soldiers who laid down their lives for their country. And this is in Warsaw. As they were hucksters at that time, they remain. I have the honor.
  27. Donhapa
    Donhapa 11 September 2016 19: 49
    +1
    The "Katyn Tragedy" is a Chutzpah on the part of Polish Jews
  28. Sasha75
    Sasha75 11 September 2016 19: 59
    0
    I also apologize for my statements. I hope that next time you won’t jump upstairs.
  29. Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 11 September 2016 20: 01
    +1
    I do not care who slammed them, one thing was for sure the ENEMIES, and a good enemy is a dead enemy
    1. svp67
      svp67 11 September 2016 20: 23
      +1
      The trouble in one thing, these enemies, at one point could become us if not friends, then just allies.
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 12 September 2016 12: 03
        0
        therefore, they were killed by the Germans, they simply killed all Polish officers as part of the German Germanization program in Poland, just as they shot all the Jews and commissars they came across in the USSR.
        it’s understandable with the latter, and the former were killed for being mixed with the Slavs, there was no total destruction in the Reich itself, who fought in the same Wehrmacht.
  30. Basil50
    Basil50 12 September 2016 23: 49
    +1
    This article without any such * polites * illuminated both the version and the real decision of the Nuremberg Tribunal, which cannot be canceled. But an example is given of HOW they create unlawful * considerations * from scratch and rely on it to demand something. The exhumations during the investigation were carried out, and as far as I remember, there were shot Red Army soldiers and nearby Poles. Another important fact is that the places of executions were near the place where until June 22, 1941 there was a pioneer camp, this area was a recreation area. The fact that the Polish tradition of claims is long-standing and also cherishes and cherishes its grievances is that it is simply a shame to sane people. after all, there are many similar claims, it became * fashionable * to talk about Katyn only because the USA gave permission for a scandal, and here the Poles fuss, rejecting any notion of law or morality.
    By the way, a very similar thing is with the plane of the Polish president. After all, they also spat on the documents, the investigation and stubbornly repeat only about the claims, waiting for the Americans to conduct their trial and confirm the Polish claims
    1. bakhshiyan rachik
      bakhshiyan rachik 14 September 2016 12: 22
      0
      why the Poles do not recognize the execution of hundreds of thousands of Red Army men
      1. Simpsonian
        Simpsonian 19 September 2016 04: 18
        0
        Because Trotsky refused to take them out of captivity, and they died of typhus.
  31. Mosen6Ish
    Mosen6Ish 20 September 2016 22: 37
    0
    As recently as yesterday, the Zvezda shopping mall heard the phrase that in 40 Polish officers were shot in Katyn.
    That's because radishes do not want to (speak) openly lie, because it is fraught with what their western owners want, but they do stuffing. Anyone understands - if at 40m - then bloody Stalin, etc.
    In general, the TC star disappointed me for the second time.
  32. 2-0
    2-0 27 September 2016 15: 03
    +1
    What stupidity or betrayal of the upper classes. There was an international decision, there were acts of the Burdenko commission. You could send everyone anywhere and anytime.
    No, repentance, apology, monuments, bitter regrets.
    They repented for Katyn, and they’ll give the Kuril Islands and it will come to Kaliningrad ...